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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Time Flies
2007-07-02 09:49
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Slowly easing my way back onto the computer ... thanks to Bob Timmermann for so adeptly taking over this week's National League West piece at SI.com's Fungoes for me.

* * *

Most of you have probably read Paul Oberjuerge's intereview with Vin Scully in the San Bernadino Sun, but here are two exchanges I wanted to call out.

Q: Are you saying you will go on beyond 2008?

A: I wasn't really saying that because I said I wanted to talk to my wife. One of the difficulties of being in baseball is the degree of absence. And especially ... it was OK when the children kept your wife so busy, but now the children are all grown, and if she's not with me — and it's a pain in the neck, she doesn't want to come in at 4 o'clock and get back home at 11 o'clock at night. The road trips are not that pleasant because of the late arrivals and all that kind of stuff. So it means a great deal of loneliness, and I understand that, and I feel badly about that, and so I think it will really be a question about how I feel both mentally, physically and about her and how she feels. Can we make some trips? Can we find a way to continue what we're doing? Or is it getting to be totally too much? So I don't know. We're going to have to spend the winter and certainly during the year next year, God willing, to make some kind of decision. ...

Q: Do fans talk to you about not retiring?

A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I cannot tell you how often I hear the "Don't ever retire" ... and I talk to people and I see friends who have retired, and to me ... I learned a great lesson during the strike of '94, the 45-day strike. I was paid, didn't miss a paycheck. I would get up and have nothing to do and I would go play golf at Bel-Air and after a while that got old. Then I'd go up and have lunch with the guys and I'd go up and sit around with the guys and that got old. And all of a sudden, I was spending an inordinate amount of time in the hardware store ... and all of a sudden, I thought "Oh, my gosh, imagine if this was it?" And then I see fellas, and I can understand at 5 o'clock they're having drinks at the club because they have nowhere to go tomorrow. They don't have to get up fresh. If they have a hangover, so what? And it scared me, watching them. And that's going to be part of my concern if indeed we get down to what we were talking about (more years), because I don't know if I can handle it. Because I've been doing this for far more than half of my life. It's become my life.

* * *

A lot happened while I was offline, and I'm not sure how much I want to go back in time to catch up. But here are two quick thoughts.

1) The idea behind my prefering Hong-Chih Kuo to Mark Hendrickson in the Dodger rotation has never been that on any given night, Kuo would always be better, but that over the course of the season, Kuo has greater potential to be better because he is young and figures to improve. Hendrickson, on the other hand, has known limitations.

Now, some have commented that Kuo's velocity is down, which could be signaling more arm trouble. That's another story. But assuming the two pitchers were healthy, I would still rather see Kuo out there - for the same reason it makes sense to have Chad Billingsley keep going out there as a starter instead of Brett Tomko. I'll take the risk that they will have rough outings - or that they might not even pan out - for the potential reward of long-term greatness.

It's counterintuitive, it seems to me, to have promising youngsters on a shorter leash than mediocre veterans. I'm not saying that always happens in Los Angeles, but when it does, it just makes me feel tired.

2) Maybe I am more of a Pollyanna than I want to believe, but I continue to find myself astounded by how much negativity can be directed toward the Dodgers during a week when they went 4-3 against their top two division rivals, remained within a game of first place and in wild card position, and within 1 1/2 games of the best record of the NL.

I know that the Dodgers are no lock to make the playoffs, and that if they do they will be underdogs to win the World Series. I know that there are questions about personnel choices on a daily basis. Nevertheless, I think many fans and media members betray a fundamental lack of understanding that the best baseball teams will average around 10 losses per month.

It's really not enough just to intellectualize it. You should feel it too. Losses happen. A lot. Be prepared, and I suspect you'll enjoy the games much more. (That's not the same as assuming they'll lose every game - that's overcompensating.)

You really get the sense sometimes that some people expect their baseball team to be perfect, and it just gets hard to take sometimes. Teams should try to do their best, and I'll continue to point out when I feel that isn't happening. But doing your best is a process toward a goal, not a guarantee of success.

Comments (311)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-07-02 10:29:52
1.   Robert Daeley
"You really get the sense sometimes that some people expect their baseball team to be perfect, and it just gets hard to take sometimes."

I blame cheat codes and playing baseball video games on Rookie level. ;)

2007-07-02 10:36:30
2.   LogikReader
Jon, excellent post! You know sometimes I'd fall into that trap myself, but let's go over the last week or so for the Dodgers:

-- went .500 on their first leg of the road trip; killing the Blue Jays who then turned around and smoked the Rockies
-- Beat Arizona 3 out of 4, and it wasn't even close
-- Almost overcame a 5 run deficit in one game, played a well pitched (save Tomko) game with a couple of bad breaks, and then turned on the jets in the third game against the Pads.
-- Begin tonight only a game out of first, and effectively removing the D-backs from contention

I think the biggest worry at the toaster is the potential for a rent-a-player trade that depletes the prospects; but an hour ago I pointed out that Neddy actually made some pretty good mid-season moves last year.

2007-07-02 10:40:35
3.   bigcpa
Jon- Hopefully your 4 day posting break reminded you just how dull life would be if you ever walked away from DT. Imagine all those trips to the hardware store and the 5pm drinking binges. That's no way to live!
2007-07-02 10:43:26
4.   LogikReader
Vin could start writing poetry in his retirement. Heck, yesterday's poem quotes only vindicated him as a potential writer.
2007-07-02 10:44:54
5.   Bumsrap
When people take themselves out of competition (retire) they are treated differently, looked at differently, feel differently. Having drinks at the club, playing more golf, usually is not the best answer for someone line Vin Scully. He would need to stay in competition. I would love for that competition to be as an author. Not a show and tell author that betrays his values but one that inspires.

Then he could make his books available as audio books and we could continue to hear his voice.

2007-07-02 10:47:13
6.   Greg Brock
The negativity is usually within the context of a game. People flipping out when something bad happens. And it's usually directed at Juan Pierre, Brett Tomko, or Nomar Garciaparra, all of whom rightfully deserve the criticism. They're not very good baseball players. It's not like people are ripping the entire franchise or good players on a daily basis. Furcal has stunk for a good portion of the year, and nobody is crushing him.
2007-07-02 10:54:01
7.   D4P
6
I also think it's somewhat Pollyannaish to look only at the 1-game disparity in the standings between the Dodgers and Padres, and to implicitly ignore the 12plus-game disparity in Pythagorean records between the two clubs.

It seems that the Padres have been "unlucky" thus far, and that the Dodgers have been "lucky." The Padres "should" have a 5-game lead in the standings.

2007-07-02 10:55:26
8.   trainwreck
Great filmmaker Edward Yang died. This is really sad.

RIP Edward Yang

2007-07-02 10:57:52
9.   Daniel Zappala
I enjoyed the double dose of Jon and Bob today. We're very lucky to have both of you. Especially liked Bob's mention of Brian Holton, who was one of my favorites in '88. Often forgotten is that he pitched two scoreless innings in game 1. He wasn't needed much after that, with Hershiser throwing two complete games. I also liked Howell's 2 1/3 inning save in game 4, something you would never see today.
2007-07-02 10:59:02
10.   Bumsrap
Apparently the Dodgers have been scouting the Rangers extensively and Gagne is one of their players they have been looking at. What are the chances the Dodgers would try to stretch him out and make him a starter, should they get him?
2007-07-02 11:00:06
11.   Daniel Zappala
5 When Vin decides to stop broadcasting Dodger games, he ought to automatically be signed up for the playoffs and World Series.
2007-07-02 11:01:25
12.   Jon Weisman
7 - If I write, "I know that the Dodgers are no lock to make the playoffs," am I really implcitly ignoring the Pythag records?

Moreover, even if the Dodgers really were five games out on July 1, does that really change the overall thrust of what I was saying?

10 - Chances? I'm guessing zero.

2007-07-02 11:04:19
13.   D4P
12
I wasn't really addressing you so much as where I think some of the negativity comes from.
2007-07-02 11:10:03
14.   bojangles
Yelling at others is a time-honored, but not entirely honorable, way of yelling at yourself.
The only way to make the exercise useful is to become conscious of it, and start to reap the benefits of the "self-criticism."
For me, the Flock is doing better than expected; some youngsters are getting their tryout time, and nobody in the West looks like a runaway, so here (with Braves and Fish playing only a so-so brand of ball of late) is perfect chance for Madman Grady to sit Raffie thru the All-Star break, and hope that does it for his ailing ankle (high-risk given this roster, I know, but high-potential-reward rest of contending season) and for Ned to swallow one more huge humility pill and come to an understanding with Jeff about playing time, vesting, and next year's retirement.
As for Vin, he can come back if he promises to focus on the game, and leave time for the few unadoring among his listeners to breathe restorative silence (not unlike the wise "break" Jon has just authored).
Do I have to remind how many continents there are between the choice of good lines and the actual creation of them? Skills are almost always very narrowly drawn....
2007-07-02 11:10:51
15.   underdog
8 Yah, train, really sad. More here:
http://daily.greencine.com/archives/004025.html

Great post, Jon. I agree with it all, except as much as I am rooting for Kuo, I have zero confidence in him right now, and actually do have more faith in Hendrickson. I think we know Hendrickson isn't going to be great but he's shown he can be fairly reliable in short bursts, or up to 5 innings. Right now Kuo looks so "off" and hittable I think sending him back down to AAA to work on whatever it is - mechanics, velocity, etc - rather than have him blow up each time on the mound in games that count was a good idea. I guess I'm just not sold on him yet and thought he was awful the last two games. I don't consider Hendrickson a long term solution, either, and hope he's not more than a 2-3 game solution, but for now I'd actually worry less about a game he's pitching than one Kuo pitched. (Still, I'd rather give Houlton the chance over Hendy, but that may still happen.) But I do think a perspective check is in order. None of us are gonna be pollyannaish about them but there's plenty to be optimistic about.

2007-07-02 11:10:55
16.   Bob Timmermann
People were upset Sunday because the Dodgers were scoring on 2-out singles.
2007-07-02 11:13:21
17.   Hallux Valgus
I can assure that no negativity that comes from me will ever be related to Pythagorean records, since I have absolutely no idea what that means.
2007-07-02 11:14:32
18.   Marty
Do I have to remind how many continents there are between the choice of good lines and the actual creation of them? Skills are almost always very narrowly drawn....

That one was more-than-usually hard to understand. Or am I just obtuse?

2007-07-02 11:15:39
19.   underdog
The funny thing was last night I watched the rerun of Baseball Tonight and when they showed highlights of the Dodgers-Padres game, made a point to say that the Dodgers don't hit home runs (which generally they do not) and showed them getting their runs in scrappy fashion. Steve Phillips or maybe Kruk said, "typical Dodger ball right there, manufacturing runs." Now, they not only didn't show Furcal or Kemp's home runs, they didn't even mention them! As if worried that would in any way damage their credibility - of which they have little. (Karl Ravich also, when talking about the NL's all-star pitching roster, said "and why not bring in a Gagne." Then caught himself. Oh, Gagne's not in the NL this year. Nor an all-star.)
2007-07-02 11:16:48
20.   NoHoDodger
Most people who read DT, live and die with the daily doings of the Dodgers (say that three times fast). Emotions are fleeting. When all is good, all is good. When all is bad, the wolves come out to feast.

That being said, I usually take the position of looking at each series to gauge the state of the Dodgers. If we win two and lose one game of a three game series, I am satisfied. Losing two of three and I am disappointed. Losing two or three series in a row, and then I become suicidal (not literally).

Overall, people complain way too much, too early in the season. Is that human nature? Baseball nature?

Just win the series and we will be OK.

2007-07-02 11:22:17
21.   Greg Brock
16 Not people. One person.
2007-07-02 11:22:18
22.   JoeyP
I dont find many here overly negative either. Its certain things---Juan Pierre, Matt Kemp's sporadic playing time, Nomar at 3b---that are really 'correctable' errors that continue to be made.

If Nomar/Pierre were both on the DL, and Kemp was playing everyday--you'd hear alot less perceived negativity no matter the record.

Dodger fans can accept losing games if the right decisions are being made. Its when you lose, and you make poor decisoins about playing time, that sorta hurt.

Its much better knowing you're running your very best out there, and if its not good enough---accepting it. Its when you dont put your best foot forward, that you're left wondering what could have been.

Whether the Dodgers were 1 game out or 6 games out, the gist of the comments would be the same bc this Dodger team isnt going to change.

2007-07-02 11:23:08
23.   Retire 55
It's reasonable to be ticked off about the fact that Little a.) won't play his best hitters or b.) won't put players with good OBPs higher in the lineup.

Let's not even talk about the saturday night game, with the inexplicable decisions to greenlight or call for Russell's attempted steal of third, and to put in Bombko.

2007-07-02 11:24:20
24.   Bob Timmermann
21
But if we can't generalize from an isolated incident, what kind of people are we?
2007-07-02 11:27:21
25.   Greg Brock
24 Very good point.
2007-07-02 11:28:18
26.   D4P
24
The kind of people who insist that hatred have a rational basis.
2007-07-02 11:28:43
27.   Eric Stephen
That Vin Scully interview was great. I can't get over the image of him having a hangover, however. To me, Scully is almost mythical and above such things.

I still get goose bumps at some of his calls. Earlier in the year, during the same inning as the Betemit-Kemp-Kuo back-to-back-to-back HRs against the Mets, Pierre hit a triple. Scully's call was amazing, truly capturing the excitement of the moment, ending with "a belly-whopper into third." I had chills listening on my drive home.

On the negativity front, I was at the game on Saturday and endured my ninth consecutive in-person loss to the Padres. I think I fight with myself constantly, my rational side trying to calm down my irrational side. Each loss still stings however. At least I haven't devolved into heckling at the games.

Hecklers get a lot of facts wrong. A fan behind me Saturday night was yelling at Jose Cruz for a long time, and at one point wasn't even calling him by name, just repeatedly yelling at "number 8". I told him that Terrmel Sledge wore number 8 and Cruz (about 150 feet from us) wore number 9.

2007-07-02 11:30:04
28.   underdog
23 Perhaps, but it would be nice to see the occasional bit of praise for Little when he does something agreeable. Or is it just easier to criticize, or is it one of those things, like umpires, where if someone's doing a good job we don't notice? ;-) (While some things have taken more time than we would have liked, Little has also made a lot of positive changes this year, many of which were on our "to do list" for awhile.) The fact is, with a lot of veterans struggling, some injuries and questions at the backend of the rotation, he has the team one game out of first and one game out of the best record in the NL.
2007-07-02 11:33:20
29.   still bevens
27 I think he has done this before, but when Saito vs. Vlad came up a couple Fridays ago and he let the fans do all the talking blew my mind. I had goosebumps.
2007-07-02 11:34:11
30.   gibsonhobbs88
This Dodgers team will send you screaming into the hills if you let the day to day up'n down momentum swings take over. Overall, though we have a good team, it is not great yet and until they gain a foothold and competing better against the Padres, I am not totally going to be sold on their chances in the playoffs or World Series. There is room for hope and optimism when you get to see Martin, Loney and Kemp play on the field at the same time. At the same time, seeing Nomar's overall game seeming to have disappeared over the winter and the holes on this team get exposed on occasion, tempers my enthusiasm for this year's run. Well, at least we aren't in the Bronx this year,LOL.
Yankee fans are going to suffer more and seeing a $200 million dollar payroll blow up in their face does reduce my pain at the Dodgers maybe not going the distance. Going to see Lowe v. Smoltz tonight, I should just take a one day at a time approach and just enjoy the "rollercoaster ride" like Steve Martin's character was told to do in Parenthood.
2007-07-02 11:34:59
31.   Greg Brock
Grady doesn't get a lot of praise around here because the general consensus is that we like Grady Little and that managers play a very marginal role in team success. For the record, however, I'll state that I like Grady Little and that I believe he is doing a good job.
2007-07-02 11:37:41
32.   Penarol1916
18. I just assumed that I was stupid for not following that line as well, so if you are slow, then you are not alone.
2007-07-02 11:38:04
33.   underdog
31 I think that's fair - I mean, managers and coaches in all sports get way too much blame and way too much credit. Somewhere in between lies the truth, but while Little is obviously not infallible, I generally like him, too. I also remember too many things about Jim Tracy that drove me crazy.

---
Choices, choices... watch the games on my TV on TBS with the Braves' announcers vs. watching on my laptop with Vin Scully. Hm.

Wait, what time is the American Copa game tonight?

2007-07-02 11:41:23
34.   Hallux Valgus
3:30
2007-07-02 11:42:22
35.   underdog
Argh. I spaced. I wish I could set my Tivo remotely for that one but you usually need to do it at least a day in advance. Curses! I may be leaving work early today.
2007-07-02 11:44:15
36.   Hallux Valgus
I'm desperately trying to rack my brain and remember if I set Tivo. I'm almost positive I did, but that "almost" is completely unacceptable.
2007-07-02 11:45:37
37.   D4P
Grittle's performance thus far:

1B: Terrible. Not only did he leave Nomar at 1B for too long, he also left him too high in the batting order for too long.

2B: Fine. Kent is clearly the starter, and while he hasn't had a great season, that's (presumably) not Grittle's fault.

SS: See 2B.

3B: Bad. He doesn't have a lot to work with, but Nomar would seem to be the worst option out of Betemit/Abreu/LaRoche.

C: Less than average. Has probably overused Martin, which is (presumably) better (at least in the short run) than underusing him, but still...

P: Mixed bag. Has probably used BJ and Tomko too much, but has been willing to use Kuo, Tsao, and Billingsley more than he might have.

LF: Fine. LuGo wasn't going anywhere, barring a disastrous performance.

CF: Terrible. Pierre shouldn't be in the lineup, and when he is, he shouldn't bat 1-2.

RF: Subpar. Kemp has been underused.

2007-07-02 11:45:59
38.   Bob Timmermann
36
Can't you set your TiVo through Yahoo's TV listings?
2007-07-02 11:48:19
39.   jasonungar07
Well thank god Grady manages the team and not Coletti. I think he has done a great job considering what he was given.

Thats my frustration, Ned Coletti. I feel that we win in spite of him, not because of him. I don't really count not making bonehad moves (trading kids) as a positive. Alot of you guys here before the year started said, Juan Pierre? Why? Schmidt, why? His velocity is down. We still have Tomko and he will be our 5th starter? and Henderickson? gah...And jeez Loney his 380 last year, why sign Nomar? why extend an aging Kent.

So I think there is a lot of "I told you so"

Many of us think we could have gotten performances of two .400 hitters (at least for now) and a dominant pitching performance yesterday from our 22 year olds in May and saved 100 million in the process.

2007-07-02 11:48:32
40.   Hallux Valgus
38 I thought you could only do that with a stand alone unit? I have the DirecTV receiver/ recorder all in one.
2007-07-02 11:49:37
41.   Bob Timmermann
37
Then how have the Dodgers won any games? From my vantage point Saturday at Dodger Stadium, I saw no mirrors or smoke machines in place.
2007-07-02 11:52:31
42.   underdog
38 Yah, you can, and I just did that. But it depends on when your Tivo "updates" itself. They don't guarantee that it will do so in time to catch your recording. But just in case, I tried that. Maybe it'll work.
2007-07-02 11:54:58
43.   Hallux Valgus
I can't:
"Not available for DirecTV subscribers who have TiVo service as a part of their satellite subscription. You must have a standalone TiVo® Series2™ DVR to use this service."
2007-07-02 11:55:13
44.   D4P
Then how have the Dodgers won any games?

See: Penny, Brad. They're 14-3 when he starts.

Plus, even bad players win sometimes. Even Juan Pierre gets on base 30% of the time. Even the worst of teams don't go 0-162.

2007-07-02 11:56:01
45.   Disabled List
41 The machines were hidden by smoke and other mirrors.
2007-07-02 11:57:26
46.   Bob Timmermann
44
But by your description, the Dodgers are the equivalent of the 1972 Phillies with Brad Penny playing the role of Steve Carlton.
2007-07-02 11:58:23
47.   ryu
What channel is Copa America on?
2007-07-02 12:00:14
48.   D4P
46
I wasn't evaluating the players: I was evaluating Grittle's use of them, relative to what he "might otherwise have done". Which of my analyses do you disagree with?
2007-07-02 12:01:04
49.   Hallux Valgus
47 GolTV
2007-07-02 12:01:40
50.   ryu
Ah, darn it. I don't have GolTV.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-07-02 12:03:34
51.   underdog
I think your criticism of Grittle is just hiding your inner Pollyanna. Come on, let her out!

But seriously, some of that analysis seems a little unfair and some of it seems like it should be targeted more at Colletti than at Little. (See Jason's comment above.)

47 I only found it on the Spanish network, which is channel 20 here in the bay area but likely something different where you are.

2007-07-02 12:03:55
52.   Bob Timmermann
48
I don't really know what "else might have been done." You can ask for massive personnel changes, but that's pretty hard for a manager to impose unilaterally.
2007-07-02 12:05:33
53.   Disabled List
Colletti has done relatively well with the small, under-the-radar moves: Saito, Tsao, Beimel, Gonzo, Marlon Anderson, etc. The big trades and free-agent splashes have been disasters so far: Pierre, Schmidt, Julio Lugo, the Garciaparra and Kent extensions.

The Furcal signing and the Maddux and Ethier trades have been his best moves as GM. I think it's fair to say that the Dodgers have been winning despite him, not because of him.

And yet, we have to remember that for all our hand-wringing about dealing the prospects, Colletti has not yet traded anyone of consequence. He has done a good job of holding onto the young talent--so far.

2007-07-02 12:06:42
54.   Hallux Valgus
"live on GolTV and TeleFutura."

I would asumme underdog found Telefutura.

2007-07-02 12:06:49
55.   Jon Weisman
48 - Judging by your CF and RF comments, it seems as if you think Kemp should be playing both positions. Or is there a fifth outfielder that Little was wrong to keep on the bench.

From what I can tell, the Dodgers have four outfielders for three positions, period. I think overuse of Pierre is true, but you basically said that both Pierre and Ethier have been overused.

Catcher: There is no evidence that Martin's playing time has hurt the team. The only evidence out there right now is that it has helped the team, because he's done so well. Everyone keeps counting on this Martin breakdown, but who knows if it will come. I think it's a little premature to give Little a negative grade there.

2007-07-02 12:11:32
56.   D4P
52
"else might have been done" includes (e.g.) subbing Loney for Nomar at 1B, not using Nomar at 3B, moving Nomar down in the lineup if he is used, giving Martin more rest, not using Tomko other than in garbage time, not using Pierre, moving Pierre down in the lineup is he is used, using Kemp more.

None of those seem to require personnel moves. Some may seem politically difficult (e.g. benching Pierre and Nomar), but that's still Grittle's choice. If he chooses not to do so, that counts as "bad" in his evaluation. Maybe you don't want to blame him, but that doesn't make it "good".

2007-07-02 12:11:36
57.   underdog
I agree with some of your points...

Now:
"1B: Terrible. Not only did he leave Nomar at 1B for too long, he also left him too high in the batting order for too long."
He did replace him with Loney, though. You can argue it took too long, yes, but when you have a very popular (not just with GM, but with many fans as well) veteran, benching him, especially when he was at least driving in RISP for awhile, wasn't as easy a choice as it may appear. I agree he should have moved him down in the line-up quicker, though.

Pierre's a tough one, too, even if it's obvious he shouldn't be even on the team in the first place. But he was signed to a long term contract to start. Moving a guy down to #8 in the lineup who doesn't draw many walks may not be the solution it appears either. In short, I think Grady's made the best of having him on the team. Kemp should get some starts in CF though, if I had my druthers.

I wouldn't criticize him much for catcher, either (though I am one of those who worries about Russell playing too much). 3B: may be bad, but players didn't step up when given the chance, and he doesn't have much to work with. Every candidate has had some major flaw to them.

2007-07-02 12:16:16
58.   D4P
Judging by your CF and RF comments, it seems as if you think Kemp should be playing both positions

Ideally, Kemp would be in CF, with Ethier. If Pierre is in CF, Kemp should be in RF. Pierre in CF with Ethier in LF has been Grittle's modal choice, and it's the worst choice in my view.

2007-07-02 12:16:21
59.   Hallux Valgus
48 I disagree with the catcher grade. If, as you say, overuse is better than underuse, then this would seem to indicate above average. Less than ideal, perhaps, but certainly above average.
2007-07-02 12:17:30
60.   D4P
58cont.
Ideally, Kemp would be in CF, with Ethier in LF.
2007-07-02 12:17:45
61.   D4P
58cont.
Ideally, Kemp would be in CF, with Ethier in RF.
2007-07-02 12:17:49
62.   Greg Brock
Martin is on pace to catch more innings in one season than any player in modern MLB history. We talked about that the other day. If the goal is to use him up, let him walk as a free agent, and have him decline with another team, I have no problem with that.

But he shouldn't play this much.

2007-07-02 12:18:43
63.   Jon Weisman
Part of the thing with the position-by-position evaulation is that it leads one to weigh all positions evenly. Obviously, starting Martin is a no-brainer, and whether he has played the right amount or one game every two weeks too many, that's not really as big a deal as other positions.
2007-07-02 12:19:51
64.   underdog
54 I found something called Telefuturama. It's the channel with Blurnsball highlights, newscasters Linda and Morbo, the Hypnofrog, a talk show with Dr. Zoidberg and other fine programs.
2007-07-02 12:21:02
65.   Jon Weisman
Bob -

From Josh Rawitch's report on the annual media game:

David Singer of ESPN Radio's "The Big Show" had two hits for the second consecutive year, but he made two errors on one play to saddle Duncan with an unearned run.

2007-07-02 12:22:41
66.   Doctor
I don't think it is safe to assume that Matt Kemp is ready to be an every day starter. I like the idea of him starting 2-3 games a week and getting a lot of work in with Mueller. Kemp is still striking out at an alarming rate (about 1/3 of his ABs) and what is even more alarming to me is that he is not just missing good pitches, he is un able to recognize what is coming to the plate at times. Watching fat pitches down the middle, and swinging at breaking stuff way off the plate when we all know that's what is coming. Every day ABs help that? Maybe. But that might send him into a tailspin like last year. No one can say for sure. Lets see where he is at in a month. I get the feeling he won't be see many more fastballs in the strike zone for a while till he can adjust. At least he is getting some hacks.
2007-07-02 12:24:06
67.   Hallux Valgus
64 I would pay good money to have Linda and Morbo announce the Copa
2007-07-02 12:24:27
68.   bhsportsguy
You want negativity.

Come out to the Bronx. I can't even type out today's Post headline because there is no hiding the meaning and Jon doesn't want that language here.

Also, though may find it hard to believe, especially Plashcke, Paul Loduca is persona non grata in some circles in New York. He has no instituted a no talking to the media ban, there were reports that the front office wants him out after the season, however his teammates support him.

On Hendrickson pitching on Wednesday, that spot doesn't have to come up again until 2 weeks from tomorrow with the All-Star break coming up, so hopefully Kuo or someone else will be there at that point. I agree with Jon on the leash, my guess is that what they don't want to happen is for a few blow up games to deflate the kid's confidence.

But have hope, if the rotation is what I think it will be, the second time that spot comes up will be against Kuo's patsy, the Mets.

2007-07-02 12:26:00
69.   D4P
I don't think it is safe to assume that Matt Kemp is ready to be an every day starter

Is Juan Pierre? And I mean that seriously. Kemp at his worst is probably more productive than Pierre at his best. If "readiness" is not reflected in production, in what way does it matter?

2007-07-02 12:26:41
70.   Eric Stephen
62 Randy Hundley caught 160 games in 1968 for the Cubs. Baseball-Reference doesn't list his innings caught, but wouldn't Martin have a long way to go to top that season? Is there a list somewhere of innings caught in a season?

Martin is on pace for 1,292 innings this season, the equivalent of 143.6 nine-inning games.

2007-07-02 12:26:51
71.   bhsportsguy
62 I was wrong with my thoughts on Russell playing through this stretch of 35 games in 37 days, I thought he would get some more time off.

Last year, I thought it was because Toby Hall was the backup (though Hall did okay in the the few chances he got to play) but given Lieberthal's experience and ability, I thought he would play more. Maybe in the second half that will happen.

2007-07-02 12:27:06
72.   Jon Weisman
66 - Matt Kemp striking out 40 percent of the time would still make him one of the Dodgers' top-three outfielders.
2007-07-02 12:32:25
73.   underdog
67 Morbo agrees! "Puny American earthlings will be stunned to see their pathetic team destroyed by goals, and an alien uprising will destroy all the puny fans in the stadium."

Linda: "Hah hah hah."

2007-07-02 12:32:51
74.   Eric Stephen
66,69 Playing devil's advocate, I think Kemp certainly needs to improve despite his current .400/.429/.523 batting line. He has 19 strikeouts against only four walks in 70 PA. He has been productive in spite of that thus far, but if he continues with that plate discipline his numbers will drop.

That said, I do think Kemp is better than Pierre, but have adopted a less radical approach of merely hoping for Juan to rest once a week, creating more time for Kemp at the expense of someone other than Ethier.

2007-07-02 12:32:55
75.   bigcpa
66 Plenty of superstars have 30% strikeout rates- it's only alarming if you don't have other valuable skills. Also strikeouts are a byproduct of selectivity, getting deep in counts. Kemp's p/pa is better than several regulars and the same as Loney to-date. I would be more concerned if he had a drastic split vs. RHP's but he's crushing them so far.
2007-07-02 12:33:39
76.   Greg Brock
70 I completely forgot about Hundley, though he was brought up the other day. In the last twenty years, Kendall's Pirate years are the high water mark for games played.
2007-07-02 12:34:54
77.   Curtis Lowe
Kemps first hit was off of a breaking ball yesterday.
2007-07-02 12:37:05
78.   Doctor
72

Maybe, but last year it got worse and worse 'till he was pretty much un playable, so im not mad about taking it slowly this time.

2007-07-02 12:37:46
79.   Disabled List
66 what is even more alarming to me is that he is not just missing good pitches, he is un able to recognize what is coming to the plate at times. Watching fat pitches down the middle, and swinging at breaking stuff way off the plate when we all know that's what is coming.

Subjective analysis has a bit of an odor to it around these parts, but I agree with this statement completely. Kemp has a ton of talent, but he's had some really awful at-bats at times. Noticeably bad. It's the one thing that makes me a little apprehensive about his future as a great ballplayer.

2007-07-02 12:38:12
80.   D4P
I think Kemp certainly needs to improve despite his current .400/.429/.523 batting line

I agree. Like I pointed out the other day, there's not much patience or power in that line. It's all BA. That being said, he'd have to drop over .300 OPS points to stoop to Pierre's level.

2007-07-02 12:43:03
81.   JoeyP
Ned Colletti wants people to believe that "Not Striking Out" and "Batting Average" and "Stolen Bases" are more valuable than OBP/SLG.

But they arent.
If Matt Kemp K'ed 60% of the time, and the other 40% of the time he reached base---Thats fine. A strikeout is just an out. Nothing more/Nothing less. And its not a DP.

But he was signed to a long term contract to start. Moving a guy down to #8 in the lineup who doesn't draw many walks may not be the solution it appears either.

But wouldnt that be the best possible solution? If you have a starter, that is clearly the worst hitter in the lineup--shouldnt you as a manager do your best to make sure he gets the least amount of ABs as possible?

2007-07-02 12:43:10
82.   Jon Weisman
79 - The ket to that is "at times," which is precisely where the subjective analysis gets into trouble. Many good baseball players have bad at-bats.

Meanwhile, are people not noticing the times he lets a bad pitch go and then ends the at-bat with solid contact?

A) Is Matt Kemp one of the best three Dodger outfielders today? Yes.

B) To improve upon his shortcomings, would it be better for him to play every day? Yes.

2007-07-02 12:44:25
83.   D4P
I guess the thing that bothers me about "Kemp isn't ready" proclamations is the implicit "Pierre is ready" that accompanies it. Not only does Pierre have some bad ABs, I'd go so far as to say most of his ABs are bad. He doesn't take many pitches, he has a horrible platoon split, and he doesn't get on base an awful lot.
2007-07-02 12:47:18
84.   Doctor
79

Yea, and I know he has had some high pitch ABs, but to me it looks like he decides to swing or not swing before the pitch is thrown and is able to compensate for not reading pitches well with ridiculous coordination and bat speed. Its definitely going to be interesting, I know I put down everything im doing when he comes up.

2007-07-02 12:49:55
85.   bigcpa
to me it looks like he decides to swing or not swing before the pitch is thrown

I will concede that I've thought this too about Kemp. Particularly after taking strike one down the pipe.

2007-07-02 12:55:32
86.   D4P
I can agree with "Kemp is not ready" if it means "Kemp has not reached his full potential." But I disagree with "Kemp is not ready" if it means "Kemp is not currently one of our top-3 outfielders."
2007-07-02 12:59:35
87.   Humma Kavula
The question that no one can answer, in my mind, is this: is it possible that the only way Kemp will reach his full potential is by spending more time in the minors? That is, will playing time in the majors stall that conditioning and growth?

I don't see any reason why this would be true, so I think he should be a starting outfielder for the Dodgers... but other know more and might disagree.

2007-07-02 13:03:54
88.   Sam DC
Yes, yes, but on to more important matters.

Greg Brock, why is it that someone would think Fire and Rain needed to be re-recorded?

2007-07-02 13:04:01
89.   Fallout
I think that you have to give the Dodger management a lot of credit for moving Garciaparra to 3rd and playing Loney at 1st.
Their original plan was to play Betemit full time and expect Nomar to be Nomar. When Betemit didn't hit they tried other alternatives, namely Abreu and LaRoache. Keep in mind that they had Abreu play some 3rd base in the minors to sure up a backup plan. They didn't like the results so they made the big move.

My opinion is that Loney was on the shelf ready to be called up for an option in RF if Nomar hit like he was expected...making him or Ethier as trade possibilities.

My preference was always to play Loney at 1st.

2007-07-02 13:05:09
90.   D4P
why is it that someone would think Fire and Rain needed to be re-recorded?

People like money.

2007-07-02 13:13:06
91.   trainwreck
Must be the moneeeey.
2007-07-02 13:19:03
92.   Daniel Zappala
If you take a look at Wikipedia, you'll find that Fire and Rain has been covered many many many times.
2007-07-02 13:20:41
93.   Greg Brock
88 I've written and deleted like five responses.

Not thrilled

2007-07-02 13:22:53
94.   Sam DC
I often like covers, but only when they take the song somewhere new. Taking a simple perfect song like that, and sort of redoing it just the same way, irks me.
2007-07-02 13:23:05
95.   Daniel Zappala
In case you missed it, James Taylor was on The Prairie Home Companion this past weekend. A stream should be available on their website.
2007-07-02 13:29:54
96.   ToyCannon
Songwriters and publishers love covers. Nothing wrong with throwing a few more pennies their way.

From BP Monday Morning 10 pack:
"Blake DeWitt, 2B, High-A Inland Empire (Dodgers)

A first-round pick in 2004, DeWitt kind of drives people nuts. Scouts like his projection and his pretty swing, but the results only match the review half the time, as DeWitt is among the streakiest hitters in the minors. Repeating High-A this year after an awful one-month showing at Double-A Jacksonville last season, DeWitt hit just .211/.255/.368 in April. This was surprising, as many expected his offense to take off once the organization moved him back to his natural position of third base, after a experiment to turn him into an offensive second baseman went awry due to DeWitt's poor glove work. However, things have improved since, and DeWitt finished up June in style, with a triple, home run, and five RBI on Saturday, closing out the month at .390/.435/.650, and raising his season averages to .292/.330/.459. He'll get another shot at the Southern League soon."

2007-07-02 13:30:35
97.   Greg Brock
I remember hearing Fiona Apple's cover of "Across the Universe" and saying to myself, "This might be the most pointless piece of music I've ever heard."

Feliciano's "Light my Fire" is a quality reworking of a great song.

2007-07-02 13:30:51
98.   blue22
89 - Nomar has to hit in order for me to give credit to the FO for this move. Getting Loney into the lineup was really a no-brainer, but that move will mostly be offset if Nomar continues to be a shell of his former self. Betemit was producing enough to nullify most of the good will earned by Loney's insertion into the lineup.

My bigger fear is what will be the next move if/when Nomar doesn't resume hitting. Betemit, Abreu, and LaRoche apparently have all played themselves out of the 3rd base job, and trade talk frightens me.

2007-07-02 13:31:56
99.   Disabled List
82 The ket to that is "at times," which is precisely where the subjective analysis gets into trouble. Many good baseball players have bad at-bats.

I agree, and I've argued from that POV plenty of times. But the key to my original statement was "noticeably bad", as in, many good players that I watch have bad at-bats, but for whatever reason, Kemp's bad at-bats stand out to me as being noticeably bad.

Maybe it's just an expectations thing, but I don't have the same issue with Loney, for example.

2007-07-02 13:32:40
100.   bigcpa
66 Plenty of superstars have 30% strikeout rates- it's only alarming if you don't have other valuable skills. Also strikeouts are a byproduct of selectivity, getting deep in counts. Kemp's p/pa is better than several regulars and the same as Loney to-date. I would be more concerned if he had a drastic split vs. RHP's but he's crushing them so far.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-07-02 13:34:20
101.   Eric Enders
55 "Catcher: There is no evidence that Martin's playing time has hurt the team. The only evidence out there right now is that it has helped the team, because he's done so well. Everyone keeps counting on this Martin breakdown, but who knows if it will come. I think it's a little premature to give Little a negative grade there."

I'm going to continue to disagree with Jon regarding Martin's playing time. The statement above is true, so far as it goes. But it's odd in its shortsightedness. You're correct that Little's use of Martin has not yet proved itself to be a detriment to the team. However, there's every reason to believe that it will be a detriment over the long haul, either later this year or in future seasons.

I mean, there's no evidence that if Little were to let Chad Billingsley throw 155 pitches in every game, he'd blow his arm out. Do we know for sure that Billingsley would blow his arm out? No. But there is ample reason, based on the track record of previous players, to believe that it would be a likely outcome.

If I were a London call girl in 1887, we don't know for certain that I'd be killed if I walked around in Whitechapel. But the odds are high enough that I probably wouldn't want to take the chance.

Look, catchers wear down. That is not an opinion, it is a fact -- a fact which is backed up by vast amounts of evidence both statistical and anecdotal. If you look at catchers' batting splits for any given year, you find that catchers' collective numbers are ALWAYS significantly worse in the second half. The season wears catchers down and causes their hitting to nosedive. Period.

Now, does this happen with every single catcher, every single year? No, it doesn't. Do we know for a fact that this will happen to Russell Martin in particular? No, we don't. But it happens to enough catchers to make it a clear trend, and one which a team might want to avoid subjecting its franchise player to.

Do we know for sure that resting your catcher more often is going to result in him sustaining his performance over the season's second half? No. But it seems reasonably likely.

So, while you're correct that we don't have any specific evidence that wear and tear would harm Martin, I think any reasonable person would have to draw the conclusion that it is likely to have a negative effect. And that likelihood should be enough to make the team wary of running him into the ground.

Here are the top 12 catchers in MLB last year according to OPS. The first number is their OPS before the all-star break; the second number is their OPS after it.

McCann .911/1.002
Mauer .981/.882
Ross 1.065/.809
Bard .997/.850
Barrett .903/.805
Posada .854/.880
Martinez .867/.843
Zaun .922/.740
Hernandez .820/.824
Napoli .990/.624
Laird .914/.730
Martin .806/.780

2007-07-02 13:34:31
102.   bigcpa
A full hour between double posts- top that!
2007-07-02 13:37:54
103.   T Money
Okay, so I'm confused...

I clicked on the link to the Vin Scully article, and it took me to a page containing the profile piece. But the piece doesn't have the Q&A material that Jon excerpted. Am I missing something?

2007-07-02 13:41:24
104.   jasonungar07
This is obviously very subjective but there is nothing in my mind that makes me think Kemp won't be anything but a very good player. I don't think he is fully ready at all but that's what makes me so giddy. He isn't totally ready but you can see the flashes..(I am simply a fan who watches every game; really what do i know)

With Pierre, it's just hard for me to root for a long bunt, a ground ball thru first base or thru 3b or a chopper up the middle. It may be affective in accumulating an awful lot of hits but it's difficult to watch.

But my dodger roster issues are actually more about the sum of the parts more so than specific players. I don't like Juan Pierre at all as a player for example but I can live with him. I can't live with him when you know heading into the year the team lacks power and already has a leadoff hitter and that's our big move.. If Pierre was surrounded in LF by Holliday and in RF by Hawpe then fine.

(And Gonzo has been great but I admit I didnt like that move either but props cause he has been great but my thinking at the time was ok so between our OF we may hit 40 Homers total and all three arent very good on defense. So I admit I was wrong but at the time I was like well I am cool with Gonzo if that means we have a top CF, but not with Pierre.)

My other pet peeve is defense. If your going to build a team (making the judgment that power hitters are too hard to acquire and therefore we will go with speed and pitching: (JP and Schmidt) then defense has to be a priority. So again it's a sum of the parts thing.

I think the worst signing that each and everyone of you saw coming was Tomko. At first I was like hey not that bad for the price and then I came here and it sorta changed my mind. Now 1 1/2 years later I couldnt agree more. Why on earth would we even keep him right now over even Marlon Anderson?

2007-07-02 13:42:09
105.   Bob Timmermann
For the record, in 1968, Randy Hundley caught 1385 innings. His OPS that year was 591.

While he was never really good at all that year with the bat, he was particularly bad in July and September.

John Bocabella started four games and Gene Oliver started another. John Felske and Bill Plummer also made cameo appearances behind the dish for the Cubs.

2007-07-02 13:43:42
106.   unlazy4sports
From Rotoworld: "Double-A Mobile's Justin Upton left Sunday's game after he was in the foot by a Greg Miller pitch."

I guess there are positives to Greg Miller's wildness.

2007-07-02 13:45:47
107.   ToyCannon
101
Totally agree. Come Sept we will rue the overuse of Martin.

Someone used Hundley as an example of a catcher in 1969 who caught 160 games. They might have also mentioned how that team collapsed in Aug/Sept. I don't have any idea what Hundley's splits were but I'd bet D4P's hatred that he had a significant drop in Aug/Sept.

2007-07-02 13:46:30
108.   trainwreck
I saw former Dodger prospect Andrew Brown pitch in person this weekend. He still has great stuff. It was great to see him come in and throwing 96 after an entire game of pitchers throwing 89 mph and lower. Sadly, Antonio Perez did not play.
2007-07-02 13:46:38
109.   ToyCannon
105
Sorry Bob, didn't mean to step on your post. I just took to long to write mine.
2007-07-02 13:48:05
110.   ToyCannon
106
Miller seems to be pitching quite a bit for the Sun's. I'm sure it is not correct but it seems everytime I look at a box score he's tossing an inning.
2007-07-02 13:48:38
111.   El Lay Dave
103 You can find the Q&A here.
http://tinyurl.com/32k33b
2007-07-02 13:48:53
112.   GobiasIndustries
97
I remember hearing Fiona Apple's cover of "Across the Universe" and saying to myself, "This might be the most pointless piece of music I've ever heard."

Have you ever heard Tori Amos' version of "Smells like Teen Spirit?"..........I had the same reaction.

2007-07-02 13:50:52
113.   Jon Weisman
101 - First of all, let me clarify that I would have given Martin a bit more rest than Grady has.

That being said:

If catchers wear down as a rule - even with less playing time than Martin has had, since I'm told repeatedly that Martin is approaching a record for playing time - why is it bad to play him a lot now? If catchers as a rule play better in the first half than the second half, than why not make the most of Martin in the first half. And then, when the inevitable weardown comes, then start playing Lieberthal more.

In that respect, it seems completely TBD whether playing Martin a lot now is hurting the team. I don't know, but Grady might well be smart to be bucking the conventional wisdom and making the best of the axiomatic bad situation: starting catchers wear down, no matter what you do.

I don't think anyone here calls for Martin to rest more than one day a week. So what's the expectation here? If Martin rested six more games in the past 12 weeks, his second-half OPS would go up by X? What is X? And is it enough to outweigh the contributions he made in the six games he played in?

Martin is getting wear and tear whether he plays 28 games in June or 26. I believe a reasonable person can have considerable doubt whether it's better for him to play the extra game in June when he's hot, or in September when you are strongly suggesting he won't be.

2007-07-02 13:51:03
114.   Sam DC
112 Now you're just trying to provoke Molly Knight.
2007-07-02 13:51:40
115.   Bob Timmermann
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1968/Jhundr1010051968.htm

Hundley's batting splits for 1968. Keep in mind that the Cubs were managed by Leo Durocher and he was not a guy who was going to let anyone tell him to who to play. That was one of his conditions for taking the Cubs job.

Hundley's numbers also suffered from playing in 1968, when everybody was Juan Pierre. That said, Hundley's OPS+ in 1968 was 73.

The Cubs also played 163 games that year as they had a tie in a doubleheader nightcap in August.

2007-07-02 13:52:35
116.   Eric Enders
106 "The impact was so severe that Upton's foot is swollen to twice its normal size, forcing him to wear oversized clown shoes during his recovery."
2007-07-02 13:59:49
117.   trainwreck
116
Andrew's got something new to delete from Wikipedia.
2007-07-02 14:00:56
118.   Eric Enders
113 Okay, I think I've been misunderstanding your point all season then. I took you to be arguing that there was no reason to believe Martin's performance will suffer as a result of catching so much. Your actual stance was much more Machiavellian than I thought -- you seem to be saying let's run him into the ground now, while he's hot, so we can get the maximum benefit of his hotness. I wouldn't quite go about it that way, but at least I can see where you're coming from now.

I guess I was going on the (admittedly unproven) assumption that every game Martin rests now, is a game that he can have at his disposal later. For example, let's say Martin's hitting level degenerates to a 110 OPS+ after 115 games caught and a 100 OPS+ after 140 games caught. By not using up all his games so fast, he would be able to be a more capable hitter later in the season if he got 10 more games of rest earlier on. That seems logical, anyway, although I guess none of us know if it's really true.

2007-07-02 14:01:28
119.   Marty
Covers I prefer over the original:

White Stripes "Stop Breaking Down"
X "Soul Kitchen"
Joe Cocker "With a little Help from My Friends"
The Clash "I Fought the Law"
Talking Heads "Take me to the River"

2007-07-02 14:02:27
120.   GobiasIndustries
114
Excuse my ignorance, but who is Molly Knight?
I went to mollyknight.com and she appears to be some sort of writer/blogger? I don't know....

I do know if she likes that Tori Amos version of an iconic classic, I want nothing to do with whatever she's selling!

2007-07-02 14:02:38
121.   T Money
111 Thanks, Dave.
2007-07-02 14:03:07
122.   Bob Timmermann
120
Molly Knight stops by here from time to time.

We won't introduce you to her.

2007-07-02 14:04:54
123.   Fallout
Carlton Fisk caught a lot of games. At the age of 42 he caught in 116 games and another 106 at 43.
2007-07-02 14:05:09
124.   El Lay Dave
105 107 Hundley started 156 times at catcher. He appeared once only to PH, so there were 3 games he entered after the start and caught.

Bob, I also see Randy Bobb with two starts at C.

2007-07-02 14:05:19
125.   Curtis Lowe
From Diamond Leung

"RHP Devin Fuller, the Dodgers' unsigned 14th-round pick, met with the team during a Diamondbacks game last week. I'm told there's a 65-75 percent chance the Gilbert, Ariz. native will sign by the August deadline and forgo playing college ball at Arizona State."

2007-07-02 14:07:49
126.   Eric Enders
120 Molly Knight posts here every once in a while. She likes Tori Amos a lot.

There are a few Springsteen songs with covers significantly better than the original:
John Wesley Harding's version of "Jackson Cage"
Rage Against the Machine's version of "Ghost of Tom Joad"
Son Volt's version of "Open All Night"
Raul Malo's version of "Downbound Train"

2007-07-02 14:09:39
127.   El Lay Dave
115 There is also the old theory that having all home games in the (hot summer) daytime hurt the Cubs as well. Imagine poor Randy Hundley catching all those day games in Wrigley!
2007-07-02 14:10:28
128.   Jon Weisman
118 - Again, this isn't my stance (I would rest Martin more) as much as my belief that Grady's approach isn't by definition wrong.

My main beef this year has been that so many times when Martin goes 0 for 4, we get the "he needs to rest more" calls. Then he plays the next day and nearly hits for the cycle or some such.

I understand the general fear that Martin will have a .570 OPS in September because of playing time. I just don't see anyone proving how playing two or three fewer games a month will prevent that.

2007-07-02 14:11:24
129.   El Lay Dave
102 I noticed and was suitably impressed.
2007-07-02 14:13:50
130.   Greg Brock
There are a few Springsteen songs with covers significantly better than the original

Degree of Difficulty: Zero.

I think there are a lot of Springsteen fans here, so I might be in a spot of trouble...

2007-07-02 14:16:30
131.   Greg Brock
In fact, I take it back. Springsteen is great. Don't kill me.
2007-07-02 14:18:17
132.   Eric Enders
Dead to Me:
Brett Tomko
Greg Brock
2007-07-02 14:19:25
133.   Eric Stephen
130,131 Wise move, Brock. This had the volatility potential of a discussion of Hee Seop Choi, steroids, and abortion all rolled into one.
2007-07-02 14:19:28
134.   Greg Brock
Yeah...I'm going to get crushed. I'll man up and take it.
2007-07-02 14:19:45
135.   Marty
I have added respect Mr. Brock.
2007-07-02 14:20:23
136.   Marty
135 There's a missing "for" in that post.
2007-07-02 14:20:39
137.   GobiasIndustries
130
I wouldn't take it back, I'm with you. IMO, he's as overrated as the Rolling Stones and Aerosmith. All of them should've quit years ago....much like 3/4 of the Giants roster.
2007-07-02 14:21:53
138.   Greg Brock
135 137 Oh, man. You guys hitched your wagon to the wrong horse.
2007-07-02 14:24:15
139.   Marty
All I'll say is, if I were running The Juice Blog, I'd know what my first "Please Explain" topic would be.
2007-07-02 14:25:01
140.   Jon Weisman
Am I going to have to start a commenter purge here today?
2007-07-02 14:25:03
141.   El Lay Dave
137 This is rock and roll we're talking about, not baseball. Consistency, longevity, who cares? It's all about the peaks man, the peaks! Springsteen, Stones, even Aerosmith, great peaks.
2007-07-02 14:26:12
142.   Sam DC
Has anyone ever covered a Billy Joel song?
2007-07-02 14:26:17
143.   Eric Enders
Brock, you might as well attend the Dodger Thoughts get-together wearing a shirt that says "I Hate Russell Martin."
2007-07-02 14:26:53
144.   El Lay Dave
140 Starting with the guy that panned Spalding Gray?
2007-07-02 14:27:06
145.   jasonungar07
Watchtower is still number 1. Most covers are just updated versions of the same song. Watchtower take the song to another place. It's the only cover that Dylan himself says is better than his own orginal, and so many people covered him.

Another good one for me was The man who sold the world from Bowie/Nirvana

Also the Rock 'n Roll to Sympathy of the Devil (both covers) by Janes Addiction on their first album might be the best for me but not for everyone else. I loved Janes Addiction.

2007-07-02 14:29:32
146.   D4P
Has anyone ever covered a Billy Joel song?

Garth Brooks made "Shameless" a huge hit.

2007-07-02 14:29:39
147.   Eric Stephen
I kind of like Limp Bizkit's version of George Michael's "Faith", and Dynamite Hack's cover of Eazy-E's "Boyz in Da Hood" is hilarious.
2007-07-02 14:30:01
148.   GobiasIndustries
142
Me Firs and the Gimmie Gimmies do a version of "Uptown Girl", and "Only the Good Die Young."
Both well done.
2007-07-02 14:30:03
149.   Bob Timmermann
145
I don't think there is any way out of here.
2007-07-02 14:30:19
150.   trainwreck
Johnny Cash's cover of Hurt by NIN is better than the original.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-07-02 14:30:55
151.   Greg Brock
Yeah, it's been a bad week for me and disliking things that Jon likes.

Go Stanford!

2007-07-02 14:31:31
152.   Sam DC
148 I bet Only the Good Die Young could make a good cover.
2007-07-02 14:32:04
153.   Joshua Worley
7 --- If you're going to discount wins and looks at Pythag record instead, then fine. I don't have a problem with looking deeper into the numbers beyond simple win-loss record. But I think one should look as deeply as possible, then.

The Baseball Prospectus Adjusted Standings

Team -- W-L -- W1-L1 -- W2-L2 -- W3-L3
Dodgers -- 46-36 -- 44.4-37.6 -- 47.0-35.0 -- 47.0-35.0
Padres -- 46-34 -- 48.7-31.2 -- 45.0-35.0 -- 44.9-35.1

W1 and L1 are pythagorean wins and losses, and the Padres are much better there. But if you look at equivalent runs scored and allowed based on the teams' batting lines, then the pythagorean records suddenly favor the Dodgers! These are the W2 and L2 numbers. The W3 and L3 numbers are adjusted for strength of pitchers and batters faced.

Basically, the Padres have been really lucky in their runs scored and allowed based on their batting and pitching lines, and then really unlucky in turning their runs scored and allowed into wins. Bottom line, the Padres are NOT obviously better than the Dodgers right now. It's the Dodgers who are a little better.

2007-07-02 14:32:08
154.   Sam DC
149 No Bob, there must be some kind of way.
2007-07-02 14:32:40
155.   Eric Stephen
150 Johnny Cash's "Hurt" is excellent. In fact, I rather enjoyed most of his "American Recordings" albums in the last few years of his life. My favorites of his covers were "Personal Jesus", "Desperado" and "In My Life".
2007-07-02 14:32:52
156.   Terry A
142 - Garth Brooks did. "Shameless." (And yes, that's the title of the song and my opinion of Brooks.)

Big whispers today that the Cardinals have "beaten" the Dodgers to Mark Buerhle. (Have no idea about the spelling.) Anthony Reyes or Cody Rasmus and a minor leaguer named Garcia for the ChiSox pitcher, allegedly.

2007-07-02 14:33:24
157.   GobiasIndustries
141
Agreed to a certain extent.
Just a matter of personal taste for me. Aerosmith has exactly one song that I can tolerate, The Stones have a library of GREAT songs and city block of terrible ones. As for Bruce and the boys, I'm pretty indifferent. He's just not one of my fav's. I also HATE the Eagles too, so take from that what you will.
2007-07-02 14:33:30
158.   Xeifrank
I think if Martin had a better backup catcher (atleast offensively) then he'd probably get more rest. I'm not saying that Lieberthal is terrible, but the difference between Martin and Lieberthal is a wide gap due to Martin being "so good" and Lieberthal being "below average". If the Dodgers want to win and make the playoffs, especially in this competitive NL West race, then they need to play Martin as much as possible. Even a slumping Martin is more valuable than Lieberthal. I have no problems with the way Little has managed Martin's playing time. Sure, he needs some rest, but this is what happens when you are the most valuable component of the every day lineup and you are involved in a tight pennant race. It's a situation that deserves close monitoring, and I have no reason to believe that Little isn't doing just that. vr, Xei
2007-07-02 14:33:40
159.   Eric Enders
155 Stop calling Bob a thief.
2007-07-02 14:35:08
160.   Sam DC
I haven't heard Racing In The Streets in a long time. It came on the other night just as I was parking and for whatever reason I just sat in the car listening to it, real loud.

Oomph.

2007-07-02 14:35:16
161.   GobiasIndustries
152
If you've got an active email address you want to share, I'll send it to you.
2007-07-02 14:35:32
162.   Curtis Lowe
"Thirteen" by Danzig covered by Cash is awesomer than any other cover.
2007-07-02 14:36:42
163.   ryu
156 Pheww, Hope that's true and Kemp is safe for another day.
2007-07-02 14:37:09
164.   jasonungar07
For sure on Cash. I loved what he did with Sound Garden's Rusty Cage.
2007-07-02 14:37:44
165.   El Lay Dave
157 Turn up the Eagles, the neighbors are listening.
2007-07-02 14:40:37
166.   still bevens
158 You could also argue that Lieberthal would be sharper if he played more frequently than once every 2 weeks.
2007-07-02 14:42:01
167.   El Lay Dave
142 I assume Weird Al's "It's Still Billy Joel to Me" doesn't quite count as a cover, irrespective of its accuracy.
2007-07-02 14:42:32
168.   underdog
158 I still maintain that Lieberthal is a more than capable backup, and is not below average. If he hasn't hit much this year it's at least in part because he barely ever plays. If he doesn't get many starts it's more about Russell Martin than it is about Lieberthal. imho.

---
I have a love/hate relationship with the Eagles; hate because of how overplayed on the radio their music is and how boring much of it is, and yet, love, because they make me nostalgic for being a kid in the 70s in SoCal. Springsteen I used to be indifferent to - or at least, had a lot of respect for, liked a few of his tracks, but wasn't that into, but when my dad, a big fan, took me to a concert some years back (he was then already in his late 50s and I was in my late 20s) I could see more clearly the appeal. He and his band were pretty amazing live. (Though even then I started to grow weary of the music.) So I understand the appeal, and like some of his records, but don't get as excited as, say, my dad does. Of course, my favorite band as a youngster was ELO, so what do I know? (This was before New Wave and before I became a teen)

2007-07-02 14:47:14
169.   GobiasIndustries
168
There is nothing and I mean nothing wrong with liking ELO! Turn to Stone is a classic.
2007-07-02 14:47:42
170.   Sam DC
161 Thanks but I'm OK. I actually don't have a non-car-radio (or computer speakers) way to listen to music at the moment . . .
2007-07-02 14:47:53
171.   D4P
How do Springsteen fans feel about the "The Tunnel of Love" album? I'm fairly indifferent toward The Boss, but "One Step Up" and "Brilliant Disguise" are two of my all-time favorite songs.
2007-07-02 14:48:42
172.   Disabled List
Stone Temple Pilots did a knockout bootleg version of "Pour Some Sugar On Me" a while back. I'm telling you, it's really good.
2007-07-02 14:49:11
173.   Hallux Valgus
168 I've long felt that Jeff Lynne was incredibly underrated. He was responsible for the first Travelling Wilburys album.
2007-07-02 14:52:10
174.   Jon Weisman
171 - I feel good about every song on that album except "When you're alone, you ain't nothing but alone."
2007-07-02 14:53:01
175.   Disabled List
Speaking of covers, how many people knew that "Istanbul, not Constantinople" was originally a big band song from the 1950s?

I just learned that this past weekend, conicidentally.

2007-07-02 14:53:30
176.   bigcpa
Foo Fighters covers of "Baker Street" and "Darling Nikki" are both xlnt.
2007-07-02 14:53:39
177.   Terry A
175 - (Raises hand.)
2007-07-02 14:54:15
178.   GobiasIndustries
173
He came out and played a few songs with Tom Petty last year at the Hollywood Bowl. It was pretty sweet. Stevie Nicks came out and did a few songs too.
2007-07-02 14:55:08
179.   GobiasIndustries
176
Agreed! Both are sublime.
2007-07-02 14:57:22
180.   Hallux Valgus
178 Do you remember which songs? He co-wrote Free Fallin, I Won't Back Down, and Runnin Down a Dream.
2007-07-02 14:57:24
181.   underdog
This was probably posted here before and I missed it, but... did you see Jim Callis' note on who will be atop the next BA top prospects list?
"After looking at this for a few minutes, I decided Dodgers lefthander Clayton Kershaw would rank No. 5 on my list. That also answers the question of who my top pitching prospect is, with Kershaw getting the nod over Devil Rays lefty Jake McGee, Red Sox righty Clay Buchholz and Indians righty Adam Miller. Position players who will rank higher than I might have thought they would entering 2007 include Cardinals outfielder Colby Rasmus and Blue Jays outfielder Travis Snider."
2007-07-02 14:58:51
182.   Disabled List
I saw Tom Petty do an amazing live version of "Gloria" that brought the house down.

I'd wager that that song has been covered by more rock bands than any other.

2007-07-02 15:00:01
183.   underdog
169/173 - I agree, of course.
Even if they were always looked down upon as a sort of Beatles rip-off with more strings/orchestral flavor, which isn't entirely unfair, but Lynne and co. sure created some great pop songs, some really catchy tunes. I used to listen to Out of the Blue as a kid repeatedly, even reading the lyrics and liner notes while I listened. First time I was introduced to the word "moog."
2007-07-02 15:00:33
184.   Nagman
171 I really liked "Tunnel of Love" but never was able to get into that double-CD-sold-separately (can't remember the names of them) set. Tried to give it a chance but it just never happened.

The staying power of Aerosmith and Tom Petty has always impressed me.

2007-07-02 15:01:47
185.   Daniel Zappala
I must admit I've never been a big fan of Springsteen. I can finally come out of the closet now that my fellow DT commenters have paved the way. The early days of Billy Joel on the other hand ...
2007-07-02 15:02:54
186.   Nagman
185 Turnstiles is a fine album.
2007-07-02 15:03:40
187.   jasonungar07
I love when Petty starts bad mouthing HIMSELF in Gloria. Like why would a hot chick like you hang out with me. I have seen Petty a number of times, he's a really entertaining show man and its a little unexpected. The guitarist is excellent in concert too. The most suprising guitarist live for me was the Edge from U2. I realized he was pretty good, but pretty blown away. Same with Lindsay Buckingham of Fleetwood Mac.
2007-07-02 15:05:40
188.   GobiasIndustries
180
He was definitely on stage while they were playing Free Fallin', and he did one other "Tom Petty" tune as well. For the life of me I can't remember which one though. Then they played Tweeter and the Monkey Man and Handle with Care. I was hoping to hear End of the Line, my all time favorite Wilbury's song.
2007-07-02 15:06:09
189.   D4P
I just learned this weekend (while driving in Delaware) that the "Don't Bring Me Down" song I remember from my elementary school days at the roller rink was sung by ELO, a group I had heard of but never knew any songs by.
2007-07-02 15:07:13
190.   MC Safety
ELO rocks. evil woman is an all time classic. can anyone tell me off the top if bob dylan or the chocolate watch band did baby blue first?
2007-07-02 15:07:17
191.   D4P
I was so into the later 80s Tom Petty/Traveling Wilburys stuff. I still like it, but the "sound" has gotten kind of old for me.
2007-07-02 15:08:10
192.   jasonungar07
I never got into Springsteen because my hands were full with Dylan. You guys will kill me but I was always like, well isn't Bruce trying to be Dylan anyways?

As I have grown older I appreciate Bruce more but now I am so far into Wilco I have little time for other music. I get like that. I am the same way with the dodgers. I don't watch much baseball anymore aside from the dodgers.

2007-07-02 15:08:26
193.   Jon Weisman
185 - The only thing the other commenters have paved the way for is for you to be hit by a cement truck.
2007-07-02 15:08:48
194.   Eric Enders
171 I think most Springsteen fans think Tunnel of Love is great. It's really good, if not at the level of Nebraska, Darkness, Born to Run, or Wild and Innocent. My favorite tracks on it are "Ain't Got You" and "Tougher Than the Rest."

A 1996 poll of Backstreets magazine subscribers ranked the albums thusly:
1 Born to Run 31%
2 Darkness 22%
3 Tunnel of Love 12%
4 The River 11%
5 Wild, Innocent 7%
6 Nebraska 5%
7 Born in the USA 4%
8t Live 75-85 2%
8t Lucky Town 2%
10 Ghost of Tom Joad 1%

...and the 10 best songs thusly:
1 Thunder Road 105
2 Born to Run 42
3 Backstreets 34
4 Jungleland 31
5 Badlands 20
6 The River 13
7t Incident on 57th St 12
7t The Promised Land 12
7t Rosalita 12
10 Darkness 11

My own top 10 would be something like this:
Atlantic City
Born to Run
Blinded By the Light
Highway Patrolman
Jungleland
Long Time Comin'
The River
Roulette
This Hard Land
Thunder Road

By the way, those of you who hate Bruce, I hope you're basing that on something more than the BITUSA hype. I would guess that most Springsteen fans hate "Dancing in the Dark" as much as you do.

2007-07-02 15:09:38
195.   Jon Weisman
Did anyone mention this comment on firejoemorgan.com from John Donovan of SI.com while I was offline?

"If you haven't seen FJM yet, it's a smart, painfully funny and relentlessly cruel (but did I mention funny?) blog dedicated to ridding the world of bad baseball analysis, notably that of ESPN's lead guy. FJM picks on other media screwups, too. In fact, I live every day in fear of getting skewered on that site, which is why I have completely stricken the words scrappy, lunch pail, grit and hustle from my F1 key, I now believe that Darin Erstad was a better punter than he is a baseball player, I'll never say anyone works out of anyone's basement, I'm taking a crash course in all sorts of Sabermetric terms, I'm considering asking Ken Tremendous to be the godfather to my next kid and I've bought stock in Fremulon Insurance. I think I'm safe. For now."

2007-07-02 15:09:39
196.   MC Safety
178- that was a great show. dont go draggin my heart around was great live!!
2007-07-02 15:11:19
197.   Nagman
192 I have been listening to Sky Blue Sky and would like to hear more. What should be the next one or two albums I listen to?
2007-07-02 15:11:37
198.   Greg Brock
This little Bruce Springsteen confessional is gonna end a lot lives.

Thankfully, I've always been a really huge fan...

2007-07-02 15:11:37
199.   GobiasIndustries
191
I've never out grown that phase. I love all that stuff. I know this is a pretty obvious statement but Full Moon Fever is one of the best albums ever from start to finish. I can listen to that cover to cover any day of the week. Petty live is an experience too, he looks a little freaky now but he still rocks harder than all these chump KROQ bands that are out now.
2007-07-02 15:12:27
200.   Marty
I'm really liking Wilco's latest.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-07-02 15:12:42
201.   dzzrtRatt
119

Raspberry Beret- Hoodoo Rhythm Devils (Warren Zevon plus 3/4 of REM)

Dancing Barefoot- U2

Jimi Hendrix- All Along the Watchtower

The Byrds- Turn, Turn, Turn

Tom Petty- Change the Locks

Elvis Costello- What's So Funny about Peace Love and Understanding (was originally a song by Nick Lowe's early band Brinsley Schwarz.)

I like ELO better now than when they were active. If an extremely popular band can be underrated, that would be ELO. The re-release of the Traveling Wilburys is more confirmation of Jeff Lynne's brilliance.

And I have long thought "Tunnel of Love" is, song for song, Springsteen's best album. Or it's a tie with "Darkness on the Edge of Town."

2007-07-02 15:13:08
202.   Marty
197 Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is terrific and is their best IMO.
2007-07-02 15:13:48
203.   Greg Brock
195 That is awesome. As are the mighty Cardinal of Stanford.
2007-07-02 15:14:16
204.   trainwreck
I like Stevie Van Zandt in the Sopranos and Max Weinberg on Conan.
2007-07-02 15:14:48
205.   trainwreck
203
You are pushing it with all this Cardinal love.
2007-07-02 15:14:53
206.   Eric Enders
197 I've seen Wilco live more times (8) than anyone but Springsteen (~25). I'd recommend Yankee Hotel Foxtrot most highly, followed by either of the Mermaid Avenue albums (the first one got more critical acclaim, but personally I liked Volume II better).
2007-07-02 15:15:58
207.   GobiasIndustries
196
It sure was. I hope he comes around again this year. I will be there for sure

194
Is "Highway Patrolman" a cover of the Johnny Cash classic?

2007-07-02 15:16:46
208.   Hallux Valgus
199 An album co-produced by... Jeff Lynne!

I long had a dark spot in my heart for Springsteen after the company i worked for lost over a million dollars. Then he came back around and made up for it by playing a 2000 seat show for almost nothing. He gave me a bottle of wine, which is pretty much all it takes to get back in my good graces.

2007-07-02 15:16:47
209.   Humma Kavula
Late to the party, but if we're still talking about covers, I like the cover of George Michael's "Faith" by The Boy Least Likely To.

Favorite thing in it: the hand claps.

http://www.theboyleastlikelyto.co.uk/playfaith.htm

2007-07-02 15:16:48
210.   Eric Enders
207 No, actually, Johnny Cash's "Highway Patrolman" is a cover of the Springsteen classic.
2007-07-02 15:16:52
211.   Nagman
202, 206 - Thanks. Were you surprised at the use of a Wilco tune for a car commercial?
2007-07-02 15:17:43
212.   trainwreck
209
I almost thought you were going to say Limp Bizkit.
2007-07-02 15:17:47
213.   Greg Brock
The joke will be on all of us when we find out Ken Tremendous is, in fact, Joe Morgan.
2007-07-02 15:17:54
214.   D4P
171
I think most Springsteen fans think Tunnel of Love is great

I wasn't sure if they were too snobby to like a commercially successful album, which I think that was.

195
That's awesome.

199
Full Moon Fever is one of the best albums ever from start to finish

I listened to that to death. Then I listened to "Into the Great Wide Open" to death. Then I listened to "Wildflowers" to death. In the end, I think "Wildflowers" is probably my favorite.

2007-07-02 15:18:27
215.   Jon Weisman
205 - Nope. He's not. Penance is good.
2007-07-02 15:19:06
216.   Humma Kavula
I'm not a big Limp Bizkit fan, but YMMV.
2007-07-02 15:19:30
217.   jasonungar07
I would buy in order:

Being There
Summerteeth
Yankee Foxtrot
A Ghost is Born
Kicking Television: live

I am just getting into them again, sorta refound them if you will. Sky blue Sky is nice and solid but a little melow and alot sounds the same. I love it, but it's not their best.

Being There sounds like the Stones, Neil Young, Faces, The band, grahm parsons, the beatles all rolled into one, with a modern feel to it. I love it.

I do not own AM (their first) or either of the Mermaid albums and hear they are all very good. Those are next.

I hear they are great live too and I get to finally see them in August.

2007-07-02 15:20:31
218.   Marty
211 Yes I was.
2007-07-02 15:20:32
219.   dzzrtRatt
[208} "I long had a dark spot in my heart for Springsteen after the company i worked for lost over a million dollars."

There's some missing information here. I'm curious about the connection.

However, that sentence would be a great first sentence for a novel.

2007-07-02 15:20:36
220.   Greg Brock
You know who else loves Penance? Jim Plunkett and John Elway, the two finest quarterbacks to ever grace the gridiron.
2007-07-02 15:22:18
221.   Marty
Pick up some old Uncle Tupelo too.
2007-07-02 15:22:21
222.   GobiasIndustries
210
Are you serious? Wow I can't believe I never knew that. That's been one of my favorite Cash songs ever since I heard it years ago. I'm a little embarrassed too as I fashion myself a bit of a music aficianado.
2007-07-02 15:22:31
223.   trainwreck
Jim Plunkett's cool. Can't say the same thing for John Elway.
2007-07-02 15:22:44
224.   Eric Enders
208 You don't work of Double Take magazine, do you? (If so, I was at that show.)
2007-07-02 15:23:08
225.   Marty
I'm waiting for Greg to say something nice about USC.
2007-07-02 15:24:13
226.   trainwreck
I hope he knows he's just raising the number of Hail Howlands he has to say.
2007-07-02 15:24:43
227.   Hallux Valgus
219 crud
...on a concert of his. ($3 million guarantee)
2007-07-02 15:25:25
228.   jasonungar07
Wildflowers is my favorite as well. It's good to be King is a favorite of mine live.

Nice, eric 206 am gonna run out and by those two albums now. I defer to you. I like Foxtrot as much as Being There, but think that if your just getting into Wilco, Being There is such a good start cause it has a little of everything. I can see how some people might not instantly fall in love with Foxtrot, i think it takes some time. I think Summerteeth is very underrated, but maybe that 's because I bought it right when it came out and was hooked and couldnt understand why they werent a huge band. The song writing is so good.

2007-07-02 15:25:43
229.   Hallux Valgus
224 No, I was at HOB concerts in Denver.
2007-07-02 15:30:23
230.   jasonungar07
Marty, are you a SON VOLT fan too?
2007-07-02 15:33:21
231.   Hythloday
Everybody is talking rock, but the best cover might be Israel Kamakawiwo'ole covering Somewhere over the Rainbow and What A Wonderful World in one shebang.
2007-07-02 15:35:46
232.   Marty
230 I have not listened to them. I'd lost track of Jay Farrar. I'll have to give them a try. Which album would you recommend?
2007-07-02 15:39:26
233.   Eric Enders
Dooley Wilson's cover of "As Time Goes By" was pretty great. So was Patsy Cline's cover of "Crazy."
2007-07-02 15:39:32
234.   Daniel Zappala
189 ELO is great. I got an album of their greatest hits, and now it's the main thing my kids sing. I try to stay away from "Evil Woman" because that's not a great thing for your kids to be singing around the house, but hearing them sing "Don't Bring Me Down" is so funny. Should I do Supertramp, Queen, or The Moody Blues next?
2007-07-02 15:42:01
235.   Greg Brock
A thing that doesn't involve sports and will probably make people A) happy B) unhappy came across the wire a little bit ago. Just soes ya know.
2007-07-02 15:42:20
236.   D4P
I got an album of their greatest hits, and now it's the main thing my kids sing

Do they sing all at once? That must be loud...

2007-07-02 15:42:33
237.   SG6
Bruce penned, but never sang a hit to #1. Or at least says he on an unplugged. Fascinating to hear him reveal the meaning behind "blinded by the light" - but I forget most. IN "Madman drummers bummers and Indians in the summer with a teenage diplomat", he was the teenage diplomat.

Also, he stated that his lyric was "deuce" as in "coupe", while for some reason ManfredMann sang it as "douche"

2007-07-02 15:42:52
238.   Marty
235 Whoa
2007-07-02 15:45:07
239.   jasonungar07
I am not a huge fan, so I don't know. I own Trace. I like it. But that was 1995. I was asking cause you brought up Uncle Tupleo...

231 both songs played at my beach wedding.

Funny too cause my first dance song was the song that Butchie stiffed Kai on John From Cincy..In your Eyes by Peter Gabriel.

2007-07-02 15:45:23
240.   Daniel Zappala
236 In 13-part harmony.
2007-07-02 15:45:51
241.   Hallux Valgus
234 Supertramp
2007-07-02 15:46:08
242.   Who Is Karim Garcia
Love the music chatter and the Wilco tune in teh commercial, but let me say that anyone trying to cover a Smiths or Morrissey song needs to be shot.
2007-07-02 15:47:11
243.   Daniel Zappala
235 Um. I think that's all we can say about that topic here.
2007-07-02 15:48:51
244.   Who Is Karim Garcia
234.

Queen.

2007-07-02 15:49:10
245.   Bob Timmermann
I never thought Phil Rizzuto should go to prison.
2007-07-02 15:49:26
246.   Hallux Valgus
242 Mark Ronson just covered "Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before," and I think it's fantastic.
2007-07-02 15:50:59
247.   D4P
No Doubt's cover of Talk Talk's "It's My Life" was pretty good.
2007-07-02 15:51:27
248.   trainwreck
Finally the talking baseball is free to teach us once again.
2007-07-02 15:52:03
249.   D4P
I never thought Phil Rizzuto should go to prison

Meanwhile, prison is too kind for Fox's animated mascot.

2007-07-02 15:52:44
250.   Nagman
244 "Fat Bottomed Girls" may not be a good choice... or "Tie Your Mother Down".
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-07-02 15:53:45
251.   Disabled List
I got a great cover song for all of you: Springsteen's own cover of "Born in the USA" from the Live in New York City album.

I call it a cover, because (with the exception of the lyrics) it is a wholly and completely different song than the original. He actually made it sound like the protest folk song it really is, rather than the boot-stomping anthem that was misappropriated by countless politicians who never bothered to actually listen to it.

2007-07-02 15:57:05
252.   trainwreck
Not one TV news channel is talking about this.

CNN Headline news is talking about A-Rod's wife's shirt.

2007-07-02 15:57:23
253.   heato
Furcal, SS
Pierre, CF
Martin, C
Kent, 2B
Gonzalez, LF
Nomar, 3B
Loney, 1B
Kemp, RF
Lowe, P
2007-07-02 16:00:12
254.   trainwreck
What a surprise. The Yankees are on ESPN once again.
2007-07-02 16:01:47
255.   Retire 55
Cal > Stanford

We got the axe!

2007-07-02 16:06:52
256.   Who Is Karim Garcia
247.

It wasn't for me. Different strokes, I guess.

2007-07-02 16:08:32
257.   berkowit28
253 Right (ItD).

Kemp's in - two days in a row.

2007-07-02 16:12:32
258.   Eric Enders
I figured that after Kemp looked so bad in his final at-bat yesterday, he would be benched for three or four games. Seems like every time I start thinking Collittle is completely clueless, they do something to show that they're not quite as clueless as I thought.
2007-07-02 16:14:08
259.   Daniel Zappala
Speaking of Morrissey and The Smiths, songs I don't think I'll have my kids listen to: Girlfriend in a Coma.
2007-07-02 16:16:50
260.   Sammy Maudlin
I'm quite fond of the Ramones version of "California Sun" and Husker Du's "Eight Miles High" .
2007-07-02 16:17:30
261.   underdog
235252 Makes me want to violate rules #1 and 5 here but I will stifle it.

259 But will you choose a Smiths song as your entrance music when the Dodgers call you up? If someone did that, I would be truly shocked and stoked all at once. I loved them in HS.

2007-07-02 16:22:24
262.   still bevens
261 I saw Moz at the Hollywood Bowl last month and he was amazing. I saw him a couple years before at the Universal Ampitheater and he was mediocre at best so it was a pleasant surprise.
2007-07-02 16:24:09
263.   Marty
How fantasy baseball players think:

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2007/6/25kershner.html

2007-07-02 16:24:22
264.   trainwreck
Sacramento Rivercats player JJ Furmaniak came out to "She's A Maniac". That made me laugh each time.
2007-07-02 16:24:49
265.   jasonungar07
I am trying to figure out if they just love juan pierre and we don't. Or if they really care about his stupid streak (doubt it) or feel that Ethier or Kemp can't play CF or if its just a money thing or god forbid trying to showcase kemp.

June Numbers:

.286 .405 .443 .848 ethier
.279 .310 .315 .626 Pierre
.383 .420 .468 .888 Kemp
.301 .398 .548 .947 gonzo

2007-07-02 16:26:20
266.   Hallux Valgus
261 I could easily enter to Bigmouth Strikes Again
2007-07-02 16:30:05
267.   Sam DC
Here's Something I Don't Know But Should: Who covered Jersey Girl, Tom Waits or Bruce Springsteen?

I'm thinking Springsteen.

2007-07-02 16:31:19
268.   Greg Brock
263 McSweeny's is hilarious. And that entire post had me laughing so much that it hurt.
2007-07-02 16:32:13
269.   Michaelpop
261 "Rubber Ring" would be a good one.

And in reference to Wilco about 50 posts back, my favorite of theirs is still "Summerteeth". That's seriously like one of my all-time top-five desert island records. I think their new one is excellent too, but I seem to be in the minority. Rob Sheffield's review in Rolling Stone mirror my feelings on the record exactly.

2007-07-02 16:32:24
270.   Hallux Valgus
267- Waits
2007-07-02 16:33:27
271.   Hallux Valgus
267- no, it was a Waits song. Bruce covered. duh
2007-07-02 16:33:55
272.   Eric Enders
267, 270 Nope, Springsteen.
2007-07-02 16:34:13
273.   Eric Enders
Gah.
2007-07-02 16:34:29
274.   Eric Stephen
Since Kemp was recalled on June 9, the Dodgers have played 21 games. Here is how the OF playing time has been distributed:

Pierre: 21 starts, 94 PA (.302/.348/.349)
Gonzo: 19 starts (plus one at DH), 84 PA (.282/.400/.493)
Kemp: 11 starts, 54 PA (.392/.426/.529)
Ethier: 12 starts, 54 PA (.310/.463/.452)

Pierre has only missed 16 innings (by my unofficial count) all season, and has started all but two Dodger games.

2007-07-02 16:34:58
275.   PDH5204
Jon, re Kuo, the part that bothers me is that he pitched okay when he was in the normal routine, but then it was 7 days, 3 days, and then back to 5 again. Maybe it's just me, but my theory is that pitcher's are like children and so function best while in possession of that sense of security that comes with stability and routine [and the 7, 3 and 5 didn't provide much of that]. And for my closing rant re our desultory and sad team management, well, we had the 7 because the stated goal was to separate Wolf and Kuo in the rotation. But then with the 3, we moved Kuo up behind Wolf and so they pitched back to back, which I thought we were trying to avoid. Apparently, no one with decision-making power bothered to consult the schedule of games, else they would have simply kept Kuo where he was, and then used the break to reset the rotation and have our Wolf-Kuo separation.
2007-07-02 16:35:40
276.   Icaros
Steven Patrick Morrissey:

"I know it isn't mutual, but I Have Forgiven Jesus."

2007-07-02 16:35:41
277.   Michaelpop
263 Oh man, hilarious! Especially the part about Khalil Greene looking like he smoked a lot of weed. I was watching the game on Saturday with some very casual baseball fans and one of them said, "DUDE, SPICOLI!" and it was pretty much the funniest observation ever, because it's true.
2007-07-02 16:37:58
278.   trainwreck
Pretty much everyone on the A's looks like they enjoy a good toke.
2007-07-02 16:40:34
279.   Tangled Up in Blue
I liked the way Ryan Adams covered Wonderwall by Oasis. Beautiful tune.
2007-07-02 16:43:11
280.   Michaelpop
279 This is turning into the best thread ever. Wilco, Morrissey and Ryan Adams? All within the context of a Dodgers blog? Heaven.
2007-07-02 16:49:13
281.   Kevin Lewis
Have there been any other Nancy Bee sightings on the blog?
2007-07-02 16:51:44
282.   Jon Weisman
281 - I have no assurance that was the real deal.
2007-07-02 16:51:50
283.   Sam DC
Whoever is doing color for the Yankees Twins game on ESPN just said that Clemens is the best pitcher in the history of baseball and Bonds is the best offensive player.

I'm not saying that's some awful or crazy thing, mind you, though obviously it's easy to argue against. Just interesting.

2007-07-02 16:53:41
284.   Icaros
282

"Juan Pierre" has been by a few times as well...brave little guy.

2007-07-02 16:55:44
285.   Eric Stephen
283 I'm not at home, but is it Rick Sutcliffe, doing the game with Chris Berman (a combo was pretty much guarantees I won't be watching ESPN when I get home)?
2007-07-02 16:57:46
286.   trainwreck
It is O'Brien and Sutcliffe.
2007-07-02 16:58:10
287.   WillieD
119 Covers I prefer over the original:

UB40 - "Please Don't Make Me Cry"
Beach Boys - "Hushabye"
Beatles - "Words Of Love"
Toots and the Maytals - "Take Me Home Country Roads"

2007-07-02 16:58:16
288.   Bob Timmermann
283
Walter Johnson's soul is too nice to come down from heaven and put one in Sutcliffe's ear.
2007-07-02 17:00:59
289.   Bluebleeder87
Hope you had a pleasant time Jon. really nice having you back.
2007-07-02 17:02:40
290.   Eric Enders
Is it reflective of our society that the oldtimers usually considered to be the best hitter and pitcher of all time (Ruth and Johnson) were supposedly the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet, while the current candidates (Clemens and Bonds) are universally acknowledged as jerks?
2007-07-02 17:03:44
291.   Sam DC
Well, Dido, if you've done nothing else today, you've sparked a nice discussion here at Dodger Thoughts.

Also: Eva Cassidy, Over The Rainbow -- good cover.

2007-07-02 17:08:24
292.   Sam DC
Also, while I'm on Eva Cassidy and admitting my ignorance at the same time, whose song is Fields of Gold that she covered. That's really quite beautiful if you've not heard.
2007-07-02 17:12:46
293.   Nagman
Not having heard it, I assume it's the Sting tune.
2007-07-02 17:14:15
294.   Sam DC
290 In 75 years, folks will probably think of Bonds and Clemens as nice guys too.

Dying seems to do that.

2007-07-02 17:24:42
295.   Curtis Lowe
Mueller to remain hitting coach for the rest of 07 per Tony jackson.
2007-07-02 17:24:53
296.   Who Is Karim Garcia
261

I would enter to Morrissey's "The Boy Racer"

2007-07-02 17:26:59
297.   Andrew Shimmin
119- Al Green called, he thinks you should get tested for insanity. Or at least have your ears cleaned out. He wishes you good luck, in any event.
2007-07-02 17:35:17
298.   berkowit28
282 I'm pretty sure "that" (Nancy Bea Hefley) was the real deal. Before I found DT I spent quite some time reading (as best I could manage) the dodgers.com message board. Nancy Bea wrote very frequently there, in great detail (often in response to questions) and was absolutely bona fide. This post was in the same style. Yes, I suppose someone could be imitating the style, but why? Far too conspiracy-theory and suspicious of you. It was she.
2007-07-02 17:39:14
299.   Jacob L
261 - Brilliant. I can hear it now as I come to back. "Now batting, center fielder, Jacob L . . ."

Sixteen, clumsy, and shy
I went to London and I
Booked myself in at the Y
W C A.
I said I like it here,
Can I stay?

2007-07-02 17:39:18
300.   Jon Weisman
298 - I don't feel that it's fair to call me too suspicious, considering the cranks that I've had to deal with here over time. It's just that I checked the e-mail address and was not assuaged.

If it was her, I'm thrilled.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-07-02 17:43:11
301.   underdog
Darn, where's CopaAmerica Thoughts when you need it?

I won't say anything about the game because I know some of you are taping it (I left work early to run an errand and made it home in time to see most of 2nd half). But I will say the post-game show on the Spanish channel it was on is possibly one of the most annoying I've ever seen - and that includes Fox. And also, it's a fun game, definitely watch it later if you taped it.

2007-07-02 17:45:39
302.   bigcpa
300 Were you expecting organist@dodgers.com?
2007-07-02 17:46:57
303.   Disabled List
Just shuffled up on my iPod: "Tainted Love" by Soft Cell.

Not a bad cover.

2007-07-02 17:47:09
304.   D4P
Tom Waits's "Jersey Girl" is a beautiful song. So smooth and atmospheric. I don't think I've ever heard Springsteen's version.
2007-07-02 17:48:13
305.   Eric Enders
304 Springsteen's version is pretty good -- until you've heard Waits's.
2007-07-02 17:51:00
306.   Marty
297 You can tell Al Green I'll be waiting whenever he wants to back up his words.
2007-07-02 17:51:56
307.   Greg Brock
301 I ended up switching to the news during halftime and never turned it back. But I have seen the score.
2007-07-02 17:52:32
308.   Sam DC
303, 305: Yup - I heard 'em in that order. And feel just the same way.
2007-07-02 17:59:56
309.   Jon Weisman
NPUT
2007-07-02 18:20:50
310.   underdog
307 It was a, uh, different game than the final.

Man, Messi just flopped big time, lead to a goal for Argentina in that game.

2007-07-02 18:21:04
311.   underdog
By different I mean closer...

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