Declaring Betemit worthless because of strikeouts is akin to declaring Shaq worthless because of missed free throws.

I simply don't like the move. We need pitching, but we need to get value for value. Betemit complimented a solid offense and with Kent ailing and Abreu on the shelf in the minors, we'll miss him right now.

It only makes sense if there are more moves being made.

Also, I'd prefer Dotel over Proctor. I hope Farnsworth is a throw in and we get two arms out of it. It isn't a done deal yet, is it Jon?

Assuming this is the only trade, we need to make two moves now:

1) DFA Hernandez or send down Hull
2) Call-up a position player (LaRoche or Young?)

3
Young was an infielder before moving to the outfield. He was a solid second baseman. If Kent is down for a little while, that might be the move.

Hernandez won't be DFAed as long as depth remains an issue.

I don't like giving up on Betemit, unfortunately he was a man without a position because of Nomar's contract, and the improved play of LaRoache. Good Luck BoomBoom

(a repost from the LAT zone of the previous thread.)

I just looked up Scott Proctor on Wikipedia. As Wikipedia is wont to do after a celebrity death, they've already got him traded back to the Dodgers in July 2007.

Looks like the guy is a hothead! Two retaliatory beanings...and about a month ago, he set his own equipment on fire after some bad pitching.

Like you crazy kids like to say, I'm "meh" on this deal. I'm glad to have some help in the bullpen for the next few weeks, but it seems like we gave up a lot to get Betemit based on his potential, and now have only a mediocre middle reliever to show for it. There must have been some internal frustration or disappointment with him.

Also, those who said Betemit playing second base on Saturday was a showcase were clearly proven right.

Ryan Church would be a reasonable lefty off the bench for the Dodgers.

Assuming Betemit can play 2B, Church and Rauch for Betemit and a decent pitching prospect might have made more sense for both clubs.

Not the Minotaur or anything like that. Greg Miller maybe? Too much to give?

I'm against the trade. I think we should have given up something less than Betemit to acquire a below average middle reliever. Isn't the rule of thumb in MOST trades that the team acquiring middle relievers is the team that came out behind. Others have stated that we have Meloan who could do the job of Proctor. If this leads to a call up of LaRoche that is a nice by product, but does he play that much over Nomar? Betemit should've netted a better player or players. A quick look at Proctor shows he is a 2007 version of Danys Baez.
HR/9: poor
BABIP: average
whip: below average
hr/9: below average
k/bb: poor
bb/9: poor
k/p: average
era: average
Me don't likey those #s. This is a throw away trade considering who we gave up.
vr, Xei

WFAN's Yankees beat reporter says the deal will be done once Proctor passes a physical.

Not crazy about the trade, but if it was a choice between Betemit and Laroche to go, I can deal. I don't get it from the Yankee standpoint. It's not like he's going to get a lot of playing time at short, third, or even second.

Given how dim the bulbs are lately, Hull will get sent down and we can watch Roberto and Scott do the baserunner tango while Abreu grounds out to 2nd when we need a pinch hit 3 run homerun with a tough righty on the mound in the 8th inning. I hate turning into D4P. I'm out of here.

Reposting my LATed ramblings...

"I am not a big Proctor fan by any means, but it seems a little presumptuous to assume the Meloan would come in and pitch as well in the majors as he has in AA. How many times does a young player fall flat on his face when promoted."

Nobody's assuming Meloan would pitch as well in the majors as he has in AA. They're assuming that he could pitch at least as well in the majors as Scott Proctor can, or Rudy Seanez, or Roberto Hernandez.

Young, extremely high strikeout pitchers tend to dominate in the majors fairly often, immediately after getting called up. Their stuff usually prevails. Look at J. Weaver, F. Hernandez, Zumaya, Verlander, Gallardo, Lincecum for examples. If anything they tend to have a period of immediate success followed by a few struggles once the league adjusts to them.

10. How about at first?
vr, Xei

10
He has power. He is versatile, can play any infield position, switch hitter. I like him on my team especially since we only gave up Batting Practice Baez to get him.

We should have gotten more for him than Proctor straight up. Hopefully there is more to the deal than reported so far.

The Giants have a tough righty in the bullpen?

The AP is going with the Proctor-Betemit trade now also.

I'm going off somewhere to dream about Mike Trombley.

13 Has Wilson ever played first? (Not that that hasn't seemed to matter much to Torre in the past.)

On the bright side, I'm a lot more confident that LaRoche isn't going anywhere.

I think the issue was if Saito never had his injury issues, than perhaps, they could go with someone like Meloan with the knowledge that they have Beimel, Broxton and Saito. But they have gone through two stretches (about 10 games total) where Saito wasn't available and lets just say, it wasn't pretty.

Proctor gives them a little more insurance in that area.

Also, Andy LaRoche may have finally convince the Front Office that he is the heir apparent at 3B, and I think Ned liked what he saw out of Abreu at 2B.

Am I crazy about the deal, no, but given the other rumors out there, at least this one won't make me grind my teeth at the Stadium tonight.

17. Probably not, but he is an ex SS and a move to first base on the defensive spectrum can't be all that hard. It's not like Andy Phillips is a great fielding and hitting first baseman.
vr, Xei

If Torre was overusing Proctor, and now doesn't have him at all, what does this mean for the Yankees bullpen? Are they calling up Joba to replace him?

this is such a stupid trade. That's about it.

The excitable right-hander is 2-5 with a 3.81 ERA and four blown saves in 52 games this year. He finished off a rough June by burning some of his equipment on the field at Yankee Stadium after a loss to Oakland, and has a 2.84 ERA in July.

Yeah this is the guy who's gonna help us get to the postseason............

This got LAT'd. Sorry to repost, but well, I'm not THAT sorry:

I feel exactly the same way about this as I did about Hee Seop Choi. Both guys are young "three true outcome" players. The team didn't recognize (or didn't value) the upside of either, especially the huge power potential. Both were let go for less than they were worth (Choi was DFAd). Both blows are softened by the presence of a probably superior prospect on the horizon (Loney for Choi and LaRoche for Betemit), but in both cases, the prospect was blocked by Nomar Garciaparra.

I'm sure Proctor will help in the short run, but the short-run bullpen problems are due to injuries, not low quality. So the only justification I can see for calling this a balanced trade is if the Dodgers have a very high discount rate -- that is, if marginal improvement in August 2007 is perceived to be more important than bigger improvement later on (obtained through Betemit's performance or the performance of a better return on the WB trading chip).

I'm in the upset-but-it-could-have-been-worse camp. I think Betemit can be a star. If he can raise his BA to the .270 range, with all that patience and power, he can star for someone.

As for what this means about Colletti, well, it's another poor, needless, but far from disastrous trade. He remains hyperactive, but for whatever reason, knows enough to avoid the D4P type debacle. I used to read the tea leaves, inferring Colletti's player-evaluation criteria, and dreading the huge blunder. Now it looks more and more as though the small trades, while generally not to my liking, are all there is.

So Colletti may be a moron, but he's a risk-averse moron. It'd be much much worse if he were a risk-loving moron.

I have to say, it doesn't speak well of your GM when the consensus reaction to a trade is "Well, I'm happy because it's a bad trade, but not as bad as I thought it would be."

I liked it back in the good ole days when the Yankees were pissed (Randy Johnson) at our GM and wouldn't do business with us anymore.
vr, Xei

22
I approve of the simplicity. I hope you and I are wrong but I feel like Ned had to make some kind of move and this is what he did to appear that he wasn't going to war with Roberto and his ancient arm.

Ughh.... I'd rather have Al Reyes.

12
Considering those tendencies, maybe the Dodgers hope to be able to save Meloan for the post-season. That was a very effective strategy for the Angels(FRod) when they won the World Series…

18 That, and that Cashman's first offer was almost certainly Farnsworth.

25 But that's where we are with Colletti. It's what he is.

Again, I thank the heavens Kim Ng is in there. Protecting the boss from himself.

Nice right up Jon you pointed out some good things, but what if Saito falters with that nagging injury? Here's what I wrote on the previous thread - {668} That makes pretty good sense & if Saito goes on the shelf we'll bump Broxton for the 9th, Proctor for the 8th & hopefully Meloan we'll pitch the 7th in the not so distant future.

What if the plan is to sign A-Rod, put him at short, LaRoche at third, and Hu at second? There are so many ways, present and future, that Betemit could be left as a bench player, that the Dodgers were never going to have a chance to see whether he could live up to his potential long-term. They would likely rather bank on Mueller helping Nomar to turn it around this year, with LaRoche coming up next year and lots of other ways to fill 2B.

Whenever I hear Proctor's name I think about a Seinfeld episode where Kramer was very excited about a personalized license plate. (Limited synopsis, didn't want to violate any rules)

31 You're acting like Proctor isn't a pitcher that could be swapped out for literally hundreds of guys.

32

-trade furcal for snell
-sign arod for short

only way to amend this trade!

It's easy, as an arm-chair GM, to say that Betemit should have brought more, but its quite possible he couldn't bring more after all. This is what the Dodgers were willing to trade, and this is what he brings. Should Proctor's stuff turns out to be above average for a middle reliever this year, then this trade helps the Dodgers.

I just don't see a playoff roster in 07 that would include Hull, Stults, and/or Roberto Hernandez.

Proctor is a piece perhaps, but we need more than one arm.

What is Proctor's contract status?

Young, extremely high strikeout pitchers tend to dominate in the majors fairly often, immediately after getting called up. Their stuff usually prevails. Look at J. Weaver, F. Hernandez, Zumaya, Verlander, Gallardo, Lincecum for examples. If anything they tend to have a period of immediate success followed by a few struggles once the league adjusts to them.

man, you guys are writing some good stuff today or maybe I just agree with what you guys are saying a lot today.

36 I agree with your point. That it's possible that Betemit couldn't bring more than Proctor.

So don't trade him.

36. It's (his stuff) already below average. We have plenty of Proctor clones (or better) at AAA. Betemit had one of the highest OPS on the team.
vr, Xei

It's easy, as an arm-chair GM, to say that Betemit should have brought more, but its quite possible he couldn't bring more after all.

Then why trade him at all? Especially for garbage!

36 I'm quickly coming around to that opinion as well. This trade has been talked about for a while, so it's hard to imagine Ned not calling around to see what else was available.

Despite what people are saying, this trade is much worse than Guzman for Lugo. Lugo was unnecessary, but Guzman was an unproven, troubled minor leaguer. Betemit is a switch hitter, with a .244 ISOpower and .128 ISOpatience, who can play anywhere in the infield. His ceiling is what? A .900 OPS (his career .263 batting average with those peripherals is a .898 OPS) at 2B? For Scott Proctor. Just because we have other options doesn't mean this was anything short of ridiculous.

36
Good point. The price of pitching is steep this July and we need pitching. You have to give up something to get something. It would seem that Betemit would have brought more based on his age, contract status, and upside. However, it is what the price is now and Ned wasn't going to sit pat.

I just hope we have another arm coming. If we really want to make a run at this, we need more than Proctor.

36
We could've held on to Betemit and traded him in the offseason for more of a return.

Proctor's contract status: vr, Xei

Scott Proctor p
1 year/$445,923 (2007)
re-signed 3/07
1 year/$352,675 (2006)
ML service: 2.010

39 Amen.

32 "They would likely rather bank on Mueller helping Nomar to turn it around this year, with LaRoche coming up next year and lots of other ways to fill 2B."

So are we eating $10 million next year, or is Nomar going to be a bench player?

I'm surprised none of the beat writers have reported this yet.

What I still can't get over was the rumors that we could have had Dotel for Abreu, but somehow he was untradeable. I'd rather see Betemit at 2B next year than Abreu. Clearly.

44 Yes, you have to give up something to get something, but I think the people who are upset with this trade would say that the Dodgers didn't get anything.

Personally, I'm in the camp that Eric describes so aptly in 25.

It's easy, as an arm-chair GM, to say that Betemit should have brought more, but its quite possible he couldn't bring more after all

The problem with this stems from defining "more". People define "more" differently, and I think it's say to conclude that Ned defines "more" differently from most SABR-minded folks.

So the next questions become:

Which pitcher gets dumped: Hull, Houlton, Hernandez, or Seanez?
Which hitter gets called up: LaRoche, Abreu, or Young?

I think it will be Hull and Young. Though if I were making the decision, it would probably be Hernandez and LaRoche.

39 If there are no plans to use him, present or future, other than as a pinch hitter and a start once a week, then the Dodgers may get more value by having Proctor pitch the 7th instead of Seanez. A reliever turned bad like Seanez can cost a lot more games than Betemit can win.

40,41 I don't agree that Proctor is garbage and I think he is a better pitcher than Seanez and Hernandez.

If the season had been played backwards, then Betemit's incredible July would have locked him into the starting job for the year. Instead a bad April and he suddenly became worthless.

49-Those are my feelings, too. I don't see Abreu as anything more than a utility infielder, ever. We just don't need another guy who hits .270 without power and without ever taking a walk.

If anyone needs something on the lighter side to read:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6527

Sigh. I'm sad about losing Betemit for not all that much of a return, though it's obvious the team didn't see much of a place for him. As I said in previous thread, I still get this trade more from the Dodgers' POV than the Yankees, though. Again, unless Wilson's gonna play first. I guess we'll see. I wish him the best. I like Proctor more than most people here seem to at the moment, but am never a fan of trading young talent for middle relief. Yeah, this is another of those "Well, it coulda been worse" trades I guess. It's possible Meloan and Proctor will both be helping the bullpen come September, at least.

And here's one vote for giving Hull a chance over Hernandez.

I'm assuming Abreu will get the call up over LaRoche, since Abreu can bat both right and left...?

53 I can't get behind the argument that trading an above average player for a not-good middle reliever is acceptable because you are mismanaging the good player.

Don't mismanage the good player.

Out of curiosity for those who are somewhat optimistic about this, how is Scott Proctor any different from Roberto Hernandez? Hernandez was pretty good last year, then saw his strikeout rate drop and his walk rate rise this year. Proctor got pretty much the same thing this year, but while Hernandez has a huge track record of being a relatively reliable reliever, Proctor has one year.

Why would you be excited about Proctor and not like Chubbs?

So are we eating $10 million next year, or is Nomar going to be a bench player?

What can he possibly become, other than a bench player, unless he is traded?

I agree that I'd rather have Betemit than Abreu, but if you were the Royals, would you rather have Betemit, Abreu, or Kyle Davies? I'm not certain that this came down to trading Betemit because Abreu was untouchable, but maybe you have a better source than I do, since I have none.

53. Meloan
58. Yep!
vr, Xei

60 Starting at third base, number five....

Starting at third base, number five....

Queue: Standing ovation from crowd at Dodger Stadium

52
Abreu if healthy. If not, it depends on if Kent is able to go. Nomar to second and LaRoche to third? Not likely. I think Ramon M will play second this series if Kent can't go. I'd prefer it to be Betemit, but if the trade goes through, that option is gone.

Hull first to go with Roberto on a very short leash.

Only thirty tw days until the return of Giovanni Carrara?

Last I heard, Abreu isn't healthy enough to come back yet.

It really needs to be LaRoche up. This will give Nomar some more time at 1st (leaving Loney as an impact LH bat off the bench on certain days).

Er, "Cue: Standing ovation from crowd at Dodger Stadium"

Peep this everyone:

Cards are shopping him and the Cubs and Indians are interested. Jayson Stark says the Dodgers are working to acquire him for a mid-level prospect as of Tuesday afternoon. Jason Isringhausen is also available, but he says he would not waive his no-trade clause even if his new team exercised his $8M option for 2008. The Tigers like Izzy. Russ Springer is not available....This rumor was last updated on 10:32 AM - Jul 31, 07. The source of this rumor was Jayson Stark.

58 I see it as trading a player with the potential to be an above-average 3B or 2B for an above average middle reliever. The word potential is key because he has not lived up to his billing for the long-term yet. I don't think Nomar over Betemit this year at 3B is abusing Betemit -- isn't Nomar doing a lot better after the All Star break (.913 OPS)? With the pedigree he has, doesn't that at least equal Betemit's potential to be an impact player during the second half?

64
People are lining up for standing ovations?

68
Pertains to Troy Percival

Huh? Why does anybody care about a .231 hitting backup when our starting third baseman is hitting .285?

68 who's that? Percival?

69 See, I just fundamentally disagree with your premise that Betemit is potential. He's not. He's outhitting most of the guys on the team. He's a good player.

Proctor's performance (and peripherals) indicate that he is not good. It may be overuse, or whatever. But he is not good.

Right now I wish the Yanks had stuck to their word of never dealing with the Dodgers again.

I don't know...I'm still unwilling to pass judgment on the Betemit-Proctor deal until I've had a chance to see how Grady et.al manage/coach Proctor in real time.

So a Yankees-Dodgers trade is historically pretty rare, right? Is Proctor the only guy to be involved in two of them?

72 Ha.

Pretty much.

73
Yes it's Troy Percival

58 - given the structure of the team yesterday, where do you play Betimet other than on the bench? As I said late in the last thread, the present at third Nomar and LaRoche is the future, that doesn't leave much place for Betimet.

Betimet became expendable because there was no place for him to play this year or in the next couple of years.

It's not a great trade, it's not even a good trade, but given the shakiness of the bullpen as of late, it's also not a bad move.

It is, I suppose, a traditionalist trade.

69 Just to be clear, Daniel. I don't hate this deal with the fire of a thousands suns. It could very well work out. And if it does, you are correct.

I just don't think it's smart. And it reinforces the negative things we think about Ned.

So if we are spending all this time studying Scott Proctor, does that make us Proctologists?

(Yes, I'm afraid I'll be here all week.)

79 Considering we could have signed him for nothing, I wouldn't like that.

I've always liked Betemit and had high hopes that he would really be productive this year, but he just never has lived up to the "potential". To me he's had too many defensive lapses as well having took too long to get his power. That said, I'm not sure I'd have traded him for Proctor. I'd rather it be him, though, than alot of the other young guys.

74 We'll have to disagree on Betemit. You'll remind me about this discussion if he ever pans out, right?

Do you think Proctor is better or worse than Seanez? Hernandez?

72
Nice of you to come out of the woodwork. I think you showed up last year when we dealt Aybar for Betemit but at that time I disagreed with you as I liked the deal.

80 At the very least, he's a better utility infielder than Ramon Martinez.

Basically I stick by comments of the last few weeks: trading for a reliever is never smart (unless maybe you don't have a closer and are trying to acquire a proven one where proven does not equal Danys Baez). I'm trying to think of a good relieve the Dodgers have received in a trade that helped them. Unfortunately all I can think of are Terry Mulholland and Elmer Dessens.

Both Proctor and Betemit have a 1.5 WARP, this year. So, even with Boom Boom's screwy use pattern, and assuming that Proctor keeps getting used as often, and to the same effect (neither bets I'd take without heavy odds), and that Betemit would have too, the trade doesn't seem to make the team better at all this year. Relief pitching isn't spectacularly more useful than pinch hitting.

What is the status of Kent right now? He just tweaked his hamstring, correct?

85 I have to ask, why are you accepting Proctor's ERA+ as reflective of his actual ability, while refusing to accept Betemit's OPS+ as reflective of his?

90 I like your username...It's one of my favorite Dylan songs

85 Betemit doesn't have to pan out. He's already above average. But if he blows up and becomes a stud, I won't remind you. I won't have to.

Why would I want to rub it in?

88 "I'm trying to think of a good relieve the Dodgers have received in a trade that helped them."

Jay Howell and Jesse Orosco helped a great deal, although we did get them for a guy who won the Cy Young Award a couple years later.

We also made an excellent trade in getting Paul Quantrill (and Izturis) for Luke Prokopec.

85- I think Proctor is better, but that it doesn't matter.

80 I know Kent is there now, but wouldn't Betemit be a better option at 2nd than Abreu for the future?

74 Sorry, one more thing on Betemit. He's had 825 career ABs, with an OPS of .779. He's 27.

68
Trade Proctor for Percival!

94 Very good points, but it seems that I always only tend to remember the bad trades. The fact that Mullholland sticks out in my mind and I forgot that Quantrill was ever a Dodger is proof of this.

I guess I think Proctor is better than Hernandez and Seanez, yeah. Seanez had been a pleasant surprise in the first part of the season but has been reverting back to expectations as of late. Hernandez, to my eye looks terrible. Proctor at least looks like he has good stuff and I've seen him pitch well at times this year. So part of it is I feel Hernandez is done and has no business being on the team, whereas Proctor is not done yet.

(He's just resting, pining for the fjords... Er, where was I?)

Like I said before, if the bullpen in a month is Proctor and Meloan (along with Brox and Saito) instead of Seanez and Hernandez, I'm happier with that bullpen, is all I'm sayin'. I do hope we see LaRoche get another chance sooner rather than later, though obviously the team needs another lefty off the bench. Which, as was mentioned earlier, may mean the team could regret DFAing Marlon. But anyway... as long as my favorite prospects are protected, I'm feeling okay.

97 That's three things, but I would have to agree.

From Ken Gurnick 7/12/07:

July 31, 2003: Acquired INF Robin Ventura from the New York Yankees in exchange for OF Bubba Crosby.
Result: Ventura became one of the better bargain acquisitions, solidifying the bench as a left-handed hitter and the clubhouse as a stable veteran presence.

96 That is exactly what I am thinking, especially with Kent hurting his hamstring.

2006: Maddux for Izturis
2007: Proctor for Betemit

WHAT?!

I'd love to see what the AGMs think of this deal.

81 Ha, and I don't love this trade with the power of five thousand long-stem roses. I just think it's decent, about what we've come to expect from Ned on his good days.

99 Also, maybe Mike Fetters is still around. Hey, if Percival is trying to come back......

Betemit probably will get 50 at bats for the Yankee's and fail to impress. Then they will release him this winter when they resign Arod and Betemit will sign with the Rangers and be next years Carlos Pena.

94 Did they trade for Paul Shuey, or was he a FA acquisition? I always liked him, too, before his hip gave out.

And then Jeff Shaw helped the team, too, though we all know who they gave up in that deal.

102 That's Gurnick. He also thinks Juan Pierre has picked up his game after a bad April. Just because he writes it doesn't make it true.

Can we get Byung Yung Kim (sp?) cheaply? I've always seen an upside with him and he's versatile. He's pitched well in Dodger Stadium I think.

53 - All the winning this year has cooled most of the Colletti bashing, but who are the most valuable players on the Dodgers this year?

Brad Penny - 46.8 VORP (teh trade), Martin - 35 VORP(drafted before Ned was here), Jeff Kent - 33 VORP (originally signed by Depodesta) and Derek Lowe - 26.5 (signed by Depodesta). Who are the worst everyday players? Nomar - .2 VORP (trailing Jason Schmidt, Derek Lowe, Randy Wolf and Kuo in value as a hitter) and Juan Pierre - 3.2. This team is winning because of Paul Depodesta, Logan White and Dan Evans and in spite of Ned Colletti. Trading one of his best moves away is one more step in the wrong direction.

Friend of mine wants to know the best place to park and walk to Dodger Stadium without paying the $15. Anyone care to update what the good spots are?

96 - honestly, I'm not sure. Plus, my guess is that when Kent is done (hopefully soon), the Bums are going to make a move for a big time second baseman... I just don't know who.

88 Between the Mike Marshall era and the Gagne/Quantrill/Mota era, its hard to remember the Dodgers ever having any kind of good pen, much less trading for a reliever that helped. That would comprise most of my history as a Dodger fan. Nevertheless, some candidates for relievers acquired by trade who helped:

-Jeff Shaw (lousy trade, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say he "helped")
-Yhency
-Quantrill
-Mota

Anyway, I can't figure out why we didnt' just bring back Carrara, or Mike Fetters.

107 One day, somebody is going to take Betemit, tell him to relax and that he's going to play everyday, throw him in the lineup, and sit back and watch.

And a lot of people will look very foolish. But it's just my opinion. We'll see.

112 If you arrive early enough, in front of the Police Academy, on Academy Rd. is the spot.

105 We found common ground. The mark of a great conversation.

111 I have to think Brad Penny is also ahead of Nomar as a hitter, in addition to the guys you named.

97 Is Betemit really 27? I remember there being some confusion about his age.

119-Betemit's real DOB is 11/2/81.

91 If you want to look at it that way, Betemit is 100 even for OPS+ on his career, Proctor is 102. This has been Betemit's best year, and he's 27. Proctor has had two good years in a row and he's 30. It's not a steal either way and not a bad thing for the Dodgers given they need bullpen help and have Nomar OPSing 900+ after the break, with LaRoche ready to call up.

Apparently Gagne will be joining the Red Sox, pending his consent. At least he won't be a Yankee.

119 The confusion about Betemit's age was that, like Beltre, he falsified his age in the opposite of the usual direction -- he claimed to be older so he could sign with the Braves at age 14 instead of 16. So the younger of his two reported ages is the correct one.

109 Also funny is the notable (or perhaps not so notable) omission of a certain middle relief prospect.

120 Isn't that the date the Braves used because he was too young to sign? I'm pretty sure he's only 25.

120 Yee Gads! People born in the 80s can be 27 (or 26 in this case)?!?

Nice to see that everybody beat me to whatever points I had in 114.

Just another 2 things to make me feel old.

I could definitely root for Gagne on the Red Sox.

If he goes there, they're winning the World Series, of course. Which they may do even if he doesn't go there.

122 That's great. He's not a Met, so we don't have to face him if we make the playoffs. He's not a Yankee, so he isn't evil. He's stays out of the NL.

Yay!

125-The date of 11/2/81 would make him 25.

11/2/81 would make him 25.

117 I don't get into these very much here, because I agree so much with everyone, so consider this a rare occasion. Next DT day, we'll meet and have a laugh, probably about both of us.

I already look silly on the Betemit age thing. I keep forgetting about that.

116 The night of Bonds' 2 HR, 7 RBI game in 1993 I got my car broken into on Academy Road.

Why would a team who has the 3rd most used bullpen in the AL and just a not very spectacular bullpen give up one of their relievers? Oh that's right, cause he's not good.

129 And I'm a math major...

The other team my family roots for is the Red Sox, since I brought home a t-shirt from my visit to Fenway years back. That shirt has been handed down from kid-to-kid (all 13 ... I mean 3 of them) and been much enjoyed.

So what are the odds that Proctor gives up #755 or #756?

113
Big time 2nd baseman have to exist to go after one. They just don't materialize out of thin air. The reason Kent is still valuable is because of the lack of big time 2nd baseman. Even now he's the 4th best offensive 2nd baseman in baseball. Utley ain't going anywhere.

Since this deal has been on the table for a while, why has Colletti decide to do it now?

112 If you exit at Stadium Way off the 5, just past the Police Academy mentioned before is a public park at a stop light (don't know the name of the park or the stop light, there are tennis courts there). Don't park inside the park gates, they close the gates at 10 pm or so. However, there are spots in front of the park on the street. This is just outside the enterance to the parking lot that requires you to go up a big hill. I've been parking there a lot, no issues. The walk is ten minutes to the parking lot. This doesn't seem to fill up as quickly as the spots near the Police Academy. But sssssshhh... only tell cool people.

135 Which was supposed to lead into being happy that Gagne will pitch for the Red Sox and not the Yankees.

I think the Dodgers are pretty high on Hu but getting even higher on DeJesus jr. Throw Abreu and La Roche into the mix and the fact that the old guys are still on multi year contracts and I think that Betemit simply had no place in the Dodgers future plans.

136 At this point, I'd say even money.

133 It's not often you get to dispose of a destroyed middle reliever for a patience and pop guy that can play all over the infield.

Cherish these moments, Brian Cashman.

132 - And that's why you boo Bonds to this day.

138 No one else would give him anything decent for Betemit. [ducking]

From Gurnick...

Betemit, who lost his job as the starting third baseman in May, is a 27-year-old switch-hitter with 10 home runs, 26 RBIs and a .231 average who has shown considerable improvement since Bill Mueller took over as hitting coach six weeks ago.

Bill Mueller gets more good press than Barack Obama.

138-Probably because Ned couldn't land a starter. And LaRoche is big league ready.

132 Sorry to hear that, but I've parked there something approaching 100 times without incident. I always figured being in front of the Police Academy would discourage the local hoodlums, but what do I know.

I should add that, for those not arriving early, near the intersection of Morton Pl. and Park Dr. (entrance to Elysian Park near Academy Rd. stadium entrance) is not a bad place to park and walk. Hard to describe precisely where it is so I'd suggest google-mapping it.

Just in case Brock wants to put his money where his mouth is, Betemit's BB-Ref page sponsorship expires in two days.

138 Probably was using the deal as a fall back plan, and only agreed when he lost out on Dotel and couldn't get any other deals done.

I wonder how much playing time Betemit is going to get with the Yankees. I guess he'll platoon with Robinson Cano at 2B. I think the Yanks already have a pretty decent third baseman.

149 How much does it cost to sponsor a page?

If it's not ludicrous, I'll do it.

138 - Yeah seriously, it's not like the Yankees could've been waiting for a better offer.

144 I thought the reason he booed Bonds was the home run/pirouette in 1997. Huh. You learn something new every day.

152 It depends on the number of page hits. Can't tell yet what Betemit's will be, but I got Matt Kemp earlier this year for 10 bucks.

151 - Figure more likely to platoon with the righty Phillips at first, than the lefty Cano at 2nd.

Count me as against this deal. But if I look at it in the light of...it could have been one of our better prospects being traded away...then I'll grit my teeth and swallow it.

The trade makes me feel like maybe Saito is not going to stay healthy for long and his injure is more serious than we think. We should have gotten more for Betamit or the very least included him in a package to get Blanton. I could see Betamit fitting in with the A's

Jon's analysis, as usual, is on target.

This deal was made from a position of weakness and I can think of no rational defense for the trade.

If Proctor turns around his CY peripherals (54.1/IP 37/K 29/BB) and actually becomes a league average 7th inning pitcher, his value will remain far below that of Betemit (0.359/OBP and 0.474/SLG%).

What sickens me about this deal is that at 26, Betemit is about to enter the most productive 2-3 years of his career. In contrast--only once in his 4-year MLB career, has Proctor allowed fewer hits than innings pitched and he has NEVER had a 3:1 ratio of strikeouts to walks. In fact, other than in 2006, Proctor's peripherals are markedly below the MLB average for middle relievers.

Melon and probably 2-3 others from Las Vegas or Jacksonville would have been more productive and less expensive.

This is just a disgusting waste of talent and resources. A conclusion that I am reaching on far to many of Colletti's transactions.

155 I'll look into it and do it. If it's ten or twenty bucks, no problem.

It's a great idea, by the way.

148 I should add that the vast majority of times I've parked by the Academy have been with really crummy cars, so that might contribute to my success rate. However, its been a really popular parking spot the last few years, even before this year's price hikes, so I'd imagine there's enough activity around there that the odds of a break-in are pretty low. Crummy car can't hurt.

any guesses on who the Rangers would get for Gagne?

Wily Mo + Craig Hanson?

Maybe Ned is planning on replacing Betemit with Morgan Ensberg. He's a good character guy, right?

112)

I have been parking on Academy Drive, closer to the light by the Academy Gate. Now that I think about it, does anyone know of a better place to park for someone walking to the Top Deck (outside of the stadium). My wife really hates the stairs, but I like the workout.

Manny Del Carmen and Wily Mo.

Furcal can't be too happy about the trade. He's been close with Betamit since their days in Braves farm system

I had my stereo stolen 4 times in the 7 years I lived in downtown LA and the west side. I wouldn't park anywhere near Dodger Stadium without pulling my radio out or leaving it home.

162
Jonah Keri:
Looks like Gagne might go to the Red Sox, possibly for Kason Gabbard and David Murphy

162 - David Murphy and Kason Gabbard?

that is a good trade for Texas. Willi Mo has been the equivilant of Betamit in Boston. I see Willi Mo really breaking out in Texas. He just needs to cut down on his strikeouts...again much like betamit.

164 The top deck is a hike from anywhere outside the lot, but below the Elysian Park Ave. entrance, near the old advance ticket office on Stadium Way might be your best bet.

Anybody notice how studiously I'm sticking to parking, and avoiding talking about the Betemit/Proctor deal. Not talking about this trade is great!

159

Couldn't agree more. Ned couldn't get a starter so he panicked and picked up a reliever at any cost. Betemit played good defense at 3rd and could handle 2nd as well as Kent so he was versatile. Also, he had power and left handed power, which we desperately need. His OPS was well over 800, a fact that can't be ignored (does Ned even know what this statistic is). I think Meloan could do as good a job at the 7th inning as Proctor. Not a good trade in the short-term and potentially terrible in the long-term.

Ned continues to fail to impress me. I liked the Betemit for Aybar deal as one of the only deals that I liked Ned making (Izturis for Maddux being the other). A few others have turned out well that I hated at the time (Ethier), but at this rate, I'd much rather have Bill Stoneman as my GM.

169

thats all!?!?

Am I overvaluing Betemit here?

138 it's in his DNA. He has to. He is the anti Stoneman.

Wait, why do the Red Sox want Gagne? Just so the Yankees don't get him? I though the Red Sox pen was already quite good? Huh. Some odd trades the past 24 hours.

Once again, any bay area DTers who wanna join Icaros, me n' Paul tonight to watch the game at the 4th Street Bar and Grill, drop me a line. underdog8@gmail.com. We'll be there around 7. I'll be increasingly afraid to watch any of these games out in public here because of the pending Bonds record - who knows, he could hit one off Penny tonight - but it should be fun to watch it (or suffer) with others.

169 Gabbard? Sounds like Krusty's nemesis in a very special Simpsons episode.

Got to play in the Manny Mota golf tournament yesterday. Familiar faces included Monday, Landreaux, Rudy Law, Bobby Castillo, Tommy Davis, Jay Johnstone, as well as Beimel, Lieberthal, Duncan and Grady. Grady did not play (even though he has a house right on Pinehurst!) but did ride around and hit a few shots. Grady rode his bike there and was wearing a Michael Jordan like beret and shades. He's a funny dude.

175

Maybe Scott Procter will be the lucky victim.

162 Rosenthal says Gabbard +1

Like Jon, I think the Dodgers should've given Meloan a shot in the bullpen before making a move that involved trading one of their better hitters for a below average middle reliever. Yes, the Dodgers need bullpen help. Yes, Proctor is better than Seanez and Hernandez. I also think the Meloan + one of our AAA pitchers is greater than Proctor + (Seanez or Hernandez). There is a better in house solution to the bullpen woes. There was no need for a trade. Post #58 says it best. vr, Xei

i feel like the yankees just took us to the procterologist's office.

All I can say is I hope people aren't rooting for Proctor to give up Bonds' record-breaker, just to prove a point about this trade. It won't come to that right?

I have to say, I like the old title of this post -- "Betemit traded to Yankees for Middle Reliever" (leaving him unnamed). That is kind of the point of the post -- regardless of who the middle reliever is, he is still a middle reliever.

182 I'm rooting for it to come on Thursday, when I'm at the game, against Joe Beimel, since that's who I predicted last week.

182 I'm rooting for it to come on Thursday, when I'm at the game, against Joe Beimel, since that's who I predicted last week.

175, because they know they can use Gagne to pry Martinez loose from the Dodgers.

And there's nothing funny about this title.

173 - Those have been the names most frequently floated.

I didn't realize how good the odds were for Bonds to do it on Thursday. He will face Hendrickson on Wednesday and Tomko on Thursday. I could see Brett bursting into flames on the mound because of the pressure

All right guys forget this Betemit hogwash. Let's get serious. What are we going to have to give up to get Shawn Chacon?

184)

I am definitely not rooting for it to happen to us, but if it does happen on Thursday, I will be excited to witness history.

I really like and agree with post 159

I was killed yesterday for saying we will never win a WS with Coletti in charge and that we win in spite of him. That might be to harsh and agree that the man needs more time, but trades like this don't make me feel any better, that's for sure.

just checking in from Bronx Banter to gloat about Betemit....I'll miss Proctor--Torre's abuse of him was a major source of black humor....while his 2006 looks out of line, I think, that as part of a non-dysfunctional bullpen, he could be better than folks here seem to expect.

that said, getting Betemit for him was, obviously, a steal--

190 You can shoot higher than that- I see Bob Wickman may become available!

191 I'd be excited to witness history regardless. So far, my most vivid "historical" live sports moments are John Elway's number retirement ceremony, the Rockies home opener, and the Avalanche winning Game 7 of the Stanley Cup. All of those were expected events.

After that probably comes Martin's walk off grand slam. Just once, I'd like to be able to say, "I was there."

nick, how is Proctor's command? From what you've observed, can he throw a strike if he needs to?

I got a fever and the only prescription is more LaRoche.

182 - Beimel????

The Bonds Killer?

"Beimel has allowed only one hit in 14 career at-bats against the slugger. 'I watched guys in the past try to pitch around him and mentally I think he can feel that and he can sense when somebody is afraid of him," Beimel said. 'I've always tried to go right at him and be aggressive.'"

weird thing is, the Yanks needed somebody to pound lefties. given his platoon splits, Betemit is not that guy.

And will Torre allow him to replace the sainted Miguel Cairo as utility IF!? I devoutly hope so, but have my doubts......

Olney just said we've resumed Blanton discussions.

Laroche for Wickman?

200 ... yeah and that "the A's are picking through our farm system." Sick!

Olney just said Dodgers/A's have resume talks about Blanton.

185 Doesn't Beimel usually pitch well against Bonds, handle him? Of course I may have jinxed him now.

Btw, one more comment on Bronx Banter, re Proctor:
33. rbj
Another one who liked Proctor and kinda sad to see him go. Word is, Scotty's right arm has already flown out to LA, it's so happy to get away from Torre.

Nick, the Yankees obviously got Betemit to play third. We'll take your castoff third baseman off your hands.

If Betemit yields Proctor, what will Blanton get? Oy.

]196] Can Proctor throw a strike if he needs to?" Weeeelll, that's been the problem lately....as my dad used to say: "Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope ____ in the woods?"

Gammons just said Kershaw.

198 204
Yes, which is why he'll undoubtedly be called on to pitch to him. It was really more about picking odds on who he'd face who wouldn't walk him.

They cant trade Laroche now with Betemit gone, can they?

i think this trade makes a lot of sense from ned's pov.
1. he makes a trade at the deadline so people can't say he didn't.
2. he gets rid of a player who has no place in the line-up and who seems to have no favor with the team.
3. he picks up the middle reliever we apparently need. (though do we need him?)

i think most importantly for a gm.
4. it puts betemit in a new team where he virtually has no chance of excelling now or in the future. all he can play is backup 2nd and possibly 1st? Can he even play first?

i've read that betemit might be a safety just in case a-rod opts out. why anyone would opt out of 25 million dollars is beyond me.

sure, betemit has potential. but by colleti trading betemit to the yankees, ned's assured himself of being able to say. sure we got a rent-a-reliever but look at betemit; he doesn't even play.

Ned, please don't trade Kershaw or LaRoche!

Oy is right. Now I'm nervous. As I said before, I'd love for the Dodgers to add Blanton, but not at what the A's are likely asking... The Minotaur must remain untouched!

Wasn't it in the low 200s last night where Nate got all frisky with Kershaw news?

Does anyone else remember my dream from a year plus ago with Kershaw and some groupies and his agent -- Nate Purcell? I hardly remember the details anymore.

I do remember that it was in a public setting and there was no groupie-business, if you were worried.

There's no way LaRoche is getting traded. If Nomar goes down, there is zero cover.

I'd like to see us get Kim from Florida and Chacon from the Pirates. Cheap and expendable.

If we can win the division with a little duck tape, I'd take a short series with Penny, Lowe, and Bills and a pen of Brox and a healthy Sammy.

Unless we get a SOLID number two starter, we shouldn't sell the future. And if Kemp or Loney go, I'll be beside myself.

underdog,

If Kershaw or LaRoche is traded, I'm not going tonight.

214 Yes. The 100 posts from last night, beginning at 193, are great. The Kershaw news is revealed and DT goes crazy. It's awesome.

aw, jeez. Kershaw talk again. That's it- I'm going to get lunch

Poll question:

Which minor league pitcher would you rather give up for Blanton?

A. Kershaw
B. Meloan

Keeping TINSTAAPP and Kershaw's youth in mind, I'd trade Kershaw over Meloan.

183 - Yeah, I know. Maybe I should go back.

I was just starting finally to overcome my July 31-a-phobia, and now Betemit and this Kershaw talk. I miss Dan Evans. Really, I do.

220-Meloan, easy.

If I'm Beane I beat around the bush asking for 3 top prospects causing angst and internal debate in the Dodger front office. Then I make it real easy on Ned and offer Blanton for Kemp straight up.

Does anybody know a chant we could all say together that'll put Ned to sleep through the deadline? Or better is anybody here a doctor? can we induce a coma?

220 Meloan. Meloan is a middle reliever. Kershaw is a Class A prospect and may not exist but has the potential to be a game-changing talent. There is no question in my mind. Meloan.

Heck, I miss DePo at this point.

Lefties pound Proctor; Proctor pitches often; Bonds is a lefty.....there's a syllogism somewhere here, if I could figure it out.....

It could be worse, Jona Keri said that the talks stalled last night when the Oakland demands included Billingsley. Beane evidently wants a deal like the one when he dealt Mulder. The only major league ready young pitcher we have is Billingsley. Wouldn't that be a great topper to today.

The trashing of Abreu today and the touting of Betemit as the guy who should have been our second baseman of the future is giving me a sense of deja vu. It was just only about a year and a half ago that the idea that Loney was next to worthless and had no major league future wasn't exactly an uncommon opinion around here, while Hee-Seop Choi was the favorite son whom everybody said Colletti was stupid to get rid of. Ah, those were the days.

Betemit cannot play second base as a regular. A team can put him there, like a couple teams put Alfonso Soriano there, but Betemit can't play the position on a regular basis any more than Soriano could without harming his team. Abreu is an excellent defender at 2B, and when he is playing in the middle of the diamond with Chin-Lung Hu at Dodger Stadium we will have the best double play combination in baseball, much like we had when we had Cora and Izturis, but the difference will be that Abreu and Hu will hit the ball all day long.

Abreu has a good chance to be a much better hitter than Betemit. Not a little better, a lot better. People are not taking account of the fact that Betemit is four years older than Abreu. When Betemit was the age Abreu is now, 22, Betemit hit .262/.315/.414 in a full season of Triple A. Abreu was hitting .347/.397/.503 in Triple A when he got called up this year. For those who are not pleased with Abreu's MLB line of .288/.328/.415, maybe they would be a little more appreciative if they just considered that Abreu hit better in the majors at age 22 than Betemit hit in Triple A at the same age. Right now, Abreu is not a finished product, any more than Betemit was four years ago. Yes, at his current level of development Abreu is too aggressive at the plate, but there is plenty of time to polish the rough edges, since he is not expected to be a regular for us now, and won't even be expected to be ready for that next year, with Kent still on board in 2008. Next year Abreu and Hu should be playing every day together in Vegas. 2009 will be their time to take over from Kent and Furcal. Be patient.

Me-Loan. Easy.

229 Is Blanton better than Billingsley is today -- regardless of future potential?

Few Dodger players (H.S. Choi maybe?) have been as polarizing as Wilson Betemit. Love him, hate him - the facts are:

1. He was once one of the Braves Top Prospects but he disappeared from that list long before the Braves traded him for Aybar and Baez.

2. The Braves don't give up on many GOOD prospects - give them that!

3. Betemit has great talent (so does Kyle Farnsworth) but his struggles show that 50% of his problems ARE 90% MENTAL (thanks Yogi).

4. These types of players tantalize you, but rarely deliver the goods. Maybe he will, but the odds aren't good. Not many players with his expereience make 180 degree turns.

I disagree that Ned was dealing from a position of weakness. 3B seens to be a strength for us: LaRoche, DeWitt, Bell, even Abreu are waiting in the wings for Nomar to stumble (more)... and LaRoche is truly "on fire." 3B is our strength and Wilson Betemit had no place to play, and he's not a 2B - way too big!

It kills me when I hear "Ned could have gotten more for...."

Why didn't he? Maybe someone offered more and Ned said "No, I can't do that. It's not fair to you."

Everyone should realize that Ned (or any GM) will try and maximize any players' value. Ned has made some bad trades in that he has been loathe to trade any of our top prospects so far and the trade material hasn't been good, so what we get in return may not be good. The key is to keep on trying.

I think an experienced bullpen guy will help. Proctor should be better than 4 of our current bullpen guys: Seanez, Hernandez, Hull and Houlton. I too want to see Meloan and I think it will happen shortly. Ned just wants to make the transition as easy as possible for him.

I also would rather see Abreu, Young or LaRoche than Betemit.

Wilson Betemit may ultimately be a decent (not good) player - Journeyman, I would predict, but he had no future in LA.

When is the trade deadline?

229
No, but what is your point. Haren was better then Mulder the day he was traded.

The Padres get Rob Mackowiak for a minor leaguer. They sure love those 4th outfielders.

234
about 70 long minutes away

216 I'd rather make a trade with a dumpster for Fishbone and/or Old Boot. wait we already got those guys i forgot they're starting wednesday and thursday respectively.

236
will that mean that Jose Cruz will finally be paid by us to not play again?

230. Nice logical post Canuck. I won't be asking to quote you on this one though. :)
email me: xeifrank@yahoo.com
vr, Xei

When ToyCannon starts answering himself, you know the day has gotten too intense.

Latest rumor: Dodgers acquire Kobe Bryant for Clayton Kershaw.

238
HA!!!!!!!!!!!

Last time, Kim and/or Chacon. Go cheap, go short. Don't mortgage the future with an hour to go!

230 - "It was just only about a year and a half ago that the idea that Loney was next to worthless and had no major league future wasn't exactly an uncommon opinion around here"

I don't know how you define uncommon, but there has never, ever been a significant number of people at Dodger Thoughts giving up on Loney.

242
What a dumb move. He is going to opt out in two years and leave LA no matter which team in LA he is on.

Matt Harrison is indeed the final piece in the Teixeira trade.

I think we can call that a "win" for Texas now.

217 Ditto, Icaros. We'll be on suicide watch.

I do agree with Canuck above that I don't feel like Abreu gets quite a fair shake by some here. I mean he obviously has some things to improve upon on offense, but this was his first taste of the major leagues this year. I'd like to see him develop more power, but overall I see a lot of potential with the guy. And he's 22.

[58] exactly. i don't know why bad player management has to dictate trades. and i REALLY don't understand why "underperforming player with the big contract" gets playing time simply because of the contract (nomar, pierre). contracts shouldn't dictate playing time; performance and skill/potential should. letting the contract dictate the lineup is not the way to win.

Can Kobe pitch?

---

Shaun on Bronx Banter was asking about the possibility of Proctor starting at some point. He has in the past. I could see him as an emergency starter but not any long term solution. But that was something that had never occurred to me.

I will miss Betamit's swing. It is so smooth and easy through the strike zone. Perhaps I will see it more now that he will be featured on Sportscenter as Yankee.

If the rumor that the A's asked for Billingsley is true, it was probably just a ploy by Beane, trying to gauge Colletti's immediate reaction, which might clue him into Colletti's true level of interest in Blanton. It's a ridiculous request, so either it's untrue or insincere.

Anyone else notice that once the Betemit trade was reported that the stock market dove from a big rally to a losing day?

d'oh, errant swearing. sorry, Jon. :o

If we end up as one of ESPN trade deadline "Winners", that's when I'll know we're in trouble.

I want to be a trade deadline "Incomplete"

251

Scott Proctor = Edwin Jackson

That is what I'm afraid of.

251
Willy Aybar = Domican Lindsay Lohan

I also don't see one can't both like Betemit in the present and have hopes for Abreu's future.

256
I liked it better when we were losers for getting Brad Penny and Steve Finley.

What is the nature Gagne's contract that allows him to veto trades to certain teams and not others?

The Mets are offering Humber for Cordero, the Braves are offering whatever's left of their farm for Arroyo. Definitely some scary times for fans who like holding on to prospects, fans of other teams, too.

What is the nature of Gagne's contract that allows him to veto trades to certain teams and not others?

258

oops, Dominican (sp?)

261
Well I know for a fact that Boston was on his list of teams he had to waive a no-trade clause for. In fact, they may have been the only team.

It always bothered me that Betemit was not in "The 2007 Dodgers" sidebar and now this solves the problem.

----->

260 Ah yes, when Penny was described by an anonymous NL executive as "just a 5th starter." More keen insight from the worldwide leader in sports.

261/263 - Pretty standard "limited no-trade" clause. Not completely unheard of. The teams were odd though - why the NY teams, but not Boston?

At this point I wish the Dodgers were having a losing year. We could probably have gotten Ryan Howard for Takashi Saito.

265 - There were 12 teams that he could be traded to w/o consent. These teams are apparently on his no-trade list (apparently there are 11 other unnamed teams as well):

SEA, ARI, STL, BOS, CLE, PHI and DET

259 No, I agree with that completely. I'm just focused on Abreu. Some people seem down on him. I wouldn't have minded us having both of them in the future. (A crowded infield to be sure, but still...)

268 Allegedly Boston will pay out his incentives without him meeting them to get him to waive his clause.

271 I like Abreu as a middle infielder in 2009.

I do not like him as a corner infielder in 2007.

269

John McEnroe just left me a message for you , "You CAN NOT be serious."

266 - Actually, now it's more of a problem, as I need to create his links just to put him in the ex-Dodger file.

I'm just bummed that the True Blue poll of who should be our starting 3b in 2008 is now moot.

Who should be the Dodger 3b in 2008
¤ Nomar Garciaparra 15%
¤ Wilson Betemit 22%
¤ Andy LaRoche 62%

Votes: 98 :: Comments: 0

ESPN is so monolithic, they can continue to fundamentally fail at certain substantive things and chug on with no problems.

ESPN is American Airlines.

Am I off base in thinking that truly good teams over the course of say 10 years are built from within?

245 -- We appear to have different recollections about that. In those days, the Hee-Seop Choi days, I felt like I was terribly out-numbered among DT posters when it came to Loney (who up to that point hadn't had a great season since rookie ball), and when Choi was DFA'ed, there were a lot of people saying that we now had no future first baseman at all. Regfairfield I believe will admit to being one of those people, back then. Loney's 2006 season changed a lot of minds. JoeyP still doesn't like Loney.

279 Guilty as charged.

lol the Padres just got Morgan Ensberg

Man those sneaky Padres.

277. Who are United, Delta, and Northwest in this scenario?

hahah, Steve Phillips just said, "The Padres didn't get one good piece, but they got lots of guys."

Quantity vs. Quality.

Hahaha... Kruk'er just said he has no idea what SD is doing- "Let's get 18 bench players and see if one gets hot."

281 Good. Every other team, do lots of stuff. Sign lots of players. Be active.

Let's try to get a starting pitcher for a well respected but non-essential prospect. And then go home.

277 Great question. I could have just said "the airline industry" instead.

"Along with Teixeira, this deal also fortifies the Braves bullpen with the addition of veteran left-handed reliever Ron Mahay. In exchange, the Rangers get Saltalamacchia, Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Matt Harrison and Beau Jones."

so now it's 5 guys. This keeps getting better for Texas

Sorry. The second response was ment for the Penarol1916.

286

Logan White liked Beau Jones going into the 2005 draft enough to state after the draft that he was prepared to draft him if Hochevar was not there with our pick.

279 - Just because JoeyP doesn't like Loney doesn't mean there is or ever was a cabal against him.

And as with Abreu/Betemit, it's not an either/or thing. I liked Choi and I like Loney. So did many others. If, say, this year, it came down to Choi vs. Loney, that would have been one thing. But that was never the dilemma.

I have no recollection of many people saying that the Dodgers had no future first baseman when Choi was DFAed. The controversy then was Choi vs. Garciaparra, not Choi vs. Loney. History will now state that Choi was not meant to be, and sure, there have been some dissenters about Loney, but I'm quite confident that there has never been a fierce anti-Loney crowd.

In fact, though this itself was folly, I would say it's more representative of the group's feelings toward Loney: https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/12427.html.

259 -- I don't have a problem with that position, Jon. I was okay with Betemit, as a third baseman or utility guy. I didn't want him traded. My post was addressing the people who were writing off Abreu and saying Betemit could have, should have, been our future 2B. I am not saying those people are legion, but there were a good number of posts like that bunched together and the theme was catching on, so I addressed it.

and apparently someone called Engel Beltre, who's 17, is going to Texas in the Gagne deal

All your prospects are belong to Texas.

259 Nomar for Sidney Ponson and none of us would even be discussing this. Damn you Ned.

I'm not an Abreu fan at all. Not that I think Betemit could play second every day (I don't), but it's only fair to admit I don't like Abreu, so that I can be proven wrong.

I was unimpressed with Loney, particulary after the 2005 season. It was one of the few times I agreed with JoeyP on anything. Canuck has taught me a lot in the last two years and one is how to say "I told you so".

292 No kidding.

292

Billy Beane: I'm in your farm systems, picking through your prospects.

wow... the biggest trade of the day just happened.

Boston got Garnett.

though i couldn't care less about basketball

I don't think I've ever given up on a player before his 23rd birthday.

Plaschke is on ESPN right now, being incredibly wrong. Which is what he does.

i would seriously be embarassed to be a padres fan seeing some of those moves.

I wasn't sold on Loney in 2005, but, to my credit, I never would have traded him for Scott Proctor.

300 Oy. What's he saying?

294. I he's alright. At worst he becomes Lucille II, if he develops any plate discipline, I like him at 2nd.

Ensberg would be a nice pickup for the Twins, not sure why the Padres nabbed him.

290 I see - thanks.

you have Plaschke being Plaschke, just like you have Manny being Manny.

289 -- There were more people than JoeyP. I can't cite their user names a year a half later, however. Not everybody is as memorable as Joey P.

299
Wouldn't say I gave up on him but I sure lowered my expectations.

303
Discussing Bonds and reinforcing the ludicrous (and, frankly, idiotic) article he wrote today.

I don't think this has been mentioned here, but Proctor has become quite the magnet for tabloid style speculation in NY. One allegedly jilted mistress has a very active blog and MySpace page which often discusses her anger w/ Proctor . She has a small forum since she was on the YES networks reality show last year and followed the team to each game. That's how they met.

Sorry if this post offends, but I think it does have something to do with the Yankees desire to trade him despite their struggling bullpen. On a baseball note, I am worried that Torre used him so much last year that he's just out of gas.

[301] milton bradley's worked out so far...

305 Do they have to give anything up for him? I saw a comparison of Kouz's and Ensberg's numbers and they were almost identical. Maybe they want to send Kouz down if he has options?

Even when Loney started the '06 season in LA, he looked like he was hitting with a wet, rolled-up newspaper. The ball didn't jump off his bat at all, which really reinforced his lack-of-power reputation for me.

Then he goes to Vegas and turns into George Brett and hasn't looked back. So there you go...

He does only have one homer in the last month or so. His extra-base burst that he arrived in LA with seems to have really cooled. Hopefully he gets it going again (or is at least allowed to).

"The Los Angeles Dodgers are hoping their fans act with "dignity and class" if Barry Bonds sets baseball's career home run record during a three-game series beginning Tuesday night at Dodger Stadium."

http://www.knbc.com/sports/13790391/detail.html

I wish we traded Betemit for John Kruk just so I would never have to hear him talk on Baseball Tonight.

315
And I hope I was dating Jessica Alba.

I'm disapointed Gagne is headed to Beantown. He hooked his wagon to Texas and that failed and now he's going to get bailed out in Boston and maybe win a World Series. I don't know why that bothers me but it does.

[310] if you go to latimes.com to look at it, the entire first page of the article is made up of either 1-line or 1-sentence paragraphs. how is that man employed?

I still like the core of the Padres character though - Bradley, Barrett and soon, Hillenbrand. Now you add to that all these other random pieces to the puzzle and what do you have? As Woody Allen once said, "A Picasso by Van Gogh."

Those Pads will be fun to watch but I wouldn't want to hang them on my wall. Haven't they gone over the roster limit yet?

Bonds tying homer + Russell Martin Bobblehead night = recipe for disaster.

308- There were never as many as you thought. You occasionally plant more stakes than you have witches to burn on them.

Is the Betemit deal even official yet? It's sure taking a long time, although I suppose Ned is probably very busy at the moment.

Why on Earth would ESPN have Plaschke on as a go-to guy about anything? Oh wait, it's ESPN. Never mind. As long as he's not analyzing the Dodgers specifically, then it's not as embarrassing at least. Glad I'm missing it.

Only 30 minutes left. I feel like we need Dr. Strangelove in here just in case.

319 How is that man employed

People like his writing and he's a nice person. I don't get it, but what are you gonna do?

Unless it was rhetorical. In that case, we just laugh and cry about it.

IIRC, JoeyP's take on Loney wasn't so much that he's no good, but that he was going to languish in AAA behind Nomar for this year and next and that we might as well get something in return for him rather than have him waste away in the minors.

I think they just threw a subtle shot at Phillips and his (lack of) GM skills.

I wish we traded Betemit for John Kruk just so I would never have to hear him talk on Baseball Tonight.

It never ceases to amaze me how these guys have tv jobs when they never say anything relevant. Steve Phillips was an awful GM...so why do I want to hear his critique?

The only guy who seems to have any common sense is Gammons. Sure most of his rumors never pan out, but whatever, he KNOWS baseball.

321
If it was Juan Pierre Bobblehead night then that would be a disaster but no one is going to throw a Golden God Bobblehead onto the field.

Get off my TV, Cuba Gooding Jr.

326

no...it was/is that Loney is not good.

321
Hadn't thought of that, but scary.

/was at '95 ball giveaway game that had to be forfeited

321 Crazy conspiracy theory:

Bonds hits the tying homer in the first inning. Some fans throw their Russell Martin bobbleheads on the field, but it is limited. The toys, and the fans who threw them, are removed, and then the game continues.

In the third inning, Bonds hits the homer to pass. More fans -- many more -- throw bobbleheads onto the field. The umpires, fearing disaster, call the game. A forfeit.

Question: do the stats count?

Come on Logan, hold on to him just another half hour and the farm system has survived another trading deadline.

I remember being very moved by Plaschke's piece on Sarah Morris a few years ago.

308 - Sure, I'm not denying there were others. I just can't believe you were "terribly outnumbered" on having hopes for Loney.

I'm a fierce defender of the idea that there are different POVs on Dodger Thoughts, but it's not really in the nature of the people who come here to give up on a 21-year-old position player whose progress was hampered by an injury.

A year from now, we'll be able to recall people who were willing to trade LaRoche. But as with Loney, it's not a large number.

319
For touchy-feely, human-interest features, Plaschke is the absolute best.

For sports takes, he's awful.

323 - Somebody said Proctor needs to pass a physical.

333
No they don't. Stats in a forfeit don't count unless the game is official.

Some nut job will nail him with something from LF.

I sit out there, so I know someone who had a few Heinekens will chuck one out at him in LF.

I bet that is Bonds hits his tying homer in the first, we won't even see him play defense.

If you're motivated to boo Bonds primarily because of the first-inning home run he hit in a September game 10 years ago, please say "Aye." Otherwise, ignore this message.

no...it was/is that Loney is not good

I think he was concerned about Loney's (lack of) power, which seems like a legitimate concern. Check out his July split:

.300/.360/.400/.760

That line seems to perfectly encapsulate the concerns that some have about James.

... wait, we don't really have a Juan Pierre bobblehead night, do we?

342 Every night is Juan Pierre bobblehead night. You just don't get a toy to take home.

342 Every night is Juan Pierre bobblehead night.

The Phillies acquired former Marlin and Tiger Gary Knotts today. Obviously one of the bigger deals today (they got him for cash from the Newark Bears, who subsequently signed Ruben Mateo).

342 Thursday was originally fan's choice at the beginning of the season and the choices were Martin, Penny and Pierre. I would have to get a refund for my tickets if Pierre won.

D'oh! Seconds too slow. That was served up on a tee, wasn't it? ;-)

Only 20 minutes to go...

Okay, why are the Dodgers pursuing Percival, too?!

334 He's very capable of finding great stories. I was moved by Sarah Morris because it's a great story. I was compelled to help Sarah Morris because it was such a great story.

Doesn't make him a good writer. Doesn't mean he has any credibility about baseball. But yes, he finds great stories, and that's a talent, and I genuinely compliment him on his talent to find great stories.

It's a Juan Pierre bobble-ball promotion.

343 344 Hey-O!!!!!!!!!!!! http://tinyurl.com/2ompys

... It is sad that in this wonderful age of advanced player analysis, available in seconds at the touch of a button or a click of a mouse, that a Major League GM still bases his decisions on strikeouts and batting average.

It is sad that I cannot expect a Major League GM to know what I know; to know what nearly everyone here knows. Real performance indicators are so readily available -- how is it that we can quickly find them, and Ned Coletti cannot?

It's trades like this that drive me to prefer Diamond Mind Baseball over the real thing. It's much easier on the stomach to be able to enjoy simulated games without the simple-mindedness and backward-thinking baseball men in the Dodger front office mucking up the abundant young talent in the farm system and the Dodger dugout.

I need to drink a V8.

Will Carroll now says the Padres are close to acquiring both Lamb and Loretta (according to Tim Dierkes). Obviously there should be some doubts here.

The Betemit-Proctor trade is official. Dodgers have announced it.

338 Holy frijoles. So then -- under this crazy conspiracy theory -- Bonds would still not have tied the record.

I am not rooting for this to happen, for obvious reasons. I don't root for people to get hurt, I don't root for the Dodgers to add games to the loss column, and I don't root for people to act stoopid.

That said, it would be weird if he tied and passed the record but then had to do it all over again... and there is a part of me that roots for weird things. Again, I hope it doesn't happen, and it likely won't, but... weird.

People like his writing

this reinforces my suspicion that most people are dumb.

353
Sigh.

Another poll question:

While enjoying your 6th plate of nachos in the AMPM all you can eat pavilion, Barry Bonds' 755th career home run lands in your tub of cheese dip. You:

A. throw it back
B. call security
C. continue eating

It is sad that I cannot expect a Major League GM to know what I know; to know what nearly everyone here knows

Yep. And yet, they get paid millions to do what they do. And if they do poorly, they get their contracts extended.

One last time...

Can't find a Betemiiiiiiiit.

It is still my favorite headline from Jon.

Here's the press release:

LOS ANGELES – The Los Angeles Dodgers announced today that they have re-acquired right-handed pitcher Scott Proctor from the New York Yankees for infielder Wilson Betemit, according to Dodger General Manager Ned Colletti.

"Scott has a record of durability and success in one of the major markets in the country," said Colletti. "We see him as a solid addition to our bullpen down the stretch."

Proctor, 30, is tied for fourth in the American League this season with 54 appearances, one year after leading the AL with 83 games pitched in his first full big league campaign. He has logged 54.1 innings this season which also ties him for the fourth-most in the AL after leading all Major League relievers last season with 102.1 innings.

Since the start of last season, Proctor has thrown 156.2 innings, more than any other reliever in the Majors while his 135 appearances rank third in the Majors behind Jon Rauch (141) and Matt Capps (136). During that period, Proctor has posted a 3.62 ERA.

In 2007, Proctor has posted a 2-5 record and 3.81 ERA while registering 11 holds for New York. He has allowed just nine of 31 inherited runners to score (29 percent).

The Florida native rejoins the Dodger organization four years to the day he first left. He was originally selected by Los Angeles in the fifth round of the June 1998 First-Year Player Draft and was traded to the Yankees with outfielder Bubba Crosby in exchange for third baseman Robin Ventura on July 31, 2003. Proctor attended Florida State University, where he was 10-2 in 60 career games.

Proctor has appeared in five postseason games over the past two seasons, posting a 1.50 ERA (1 ER/6.0 IP).

Betemit, 26, batted .231 with 10 homers and 26 RBI in 84 games for the Dodgers this season. He was acquired on July 28, 2006 from the Atlanta Braves in exchange for right-handed pitcher Danys Baez and infielder Willy Aybar and batted .241 with nine homers and 24 RBI down the stretch for the Dodgers.

The switch-hitting Dominican Republic native played primarily third base for the Dodgers while also appearing at second base, shortstop and right field this season.

353-

Are the Padres just stockpiling everyone?

322 -- It's not like we do a head count on these questions. Sometimes you just get a sense, reading threads, of which way the wind is blowing, and when Choi was DFA'ed, there was a storm. Jon is right that he was never anti-Loney, and I am sure he has ever been anti- any Dodger prospect, but as far as the community of commenters goes, I certainly used to feel like I was preaching the gospel of Loney to irredeemable heathen folk, and I was not pleased about that.

"Scott has a record of durability and success in one of the major markets in the country,"

That seems an odd statement. Who cares if he was in a major-market?

363-

Don't you know that those "intangibles" are more important than actual performance? DUH!

[360] if his birthday is 11/2/81, the dodgers appear to not know how old he is.

Who cares if he was in a major-market?

Duh! Because it proves he can handle pressure and scrutiny.

Yeah, burning all your stuff on the baseball field is a great indicator of his mental stability and ability not get frazzled.

If we're honestly thinking about nabbing Percival then something is wrong. I don't want to give up ANY prospect for that guy.

C'mon Ned, just give Meloan a shot.

He has allowed just nine of 31 inherited runners to score (29 percent)

Is 29 percent good, bad, or in the middle? And is there someplace I can look this up?

At the risk of repeating myself and others here, the thought that keeps going through my head about this trade is: that's it???

For a 26-year-old power-hitting, high-on-base infielder, we should've been able to do better than Scott Proctor.

366 By lighting his equipment on fire.

Ah, I love venting day otherwise known as the trade deadline day.

354
Unless Bob Davidson is at the game tonight, there won't be a forfeit.

340

... Eh, I haven't booed Bonds in many years.

I'd be more inclined to boo the Dodger pitchers (specifically Chan Ho Park) who didn't send Bonds twirling into the dirt in his next at-bat after the pirouette homer. I'd also be more inclined to boo Bill Russell for not being a leader, and not taking a moment to address a situation where his team was being embarrassed on the field. Could you imagine Tommy Lasorda letting that pirouette slide?

362 -- That should be "he has never," not "ever."

6 more minutes?

362 - "I am sure he has ever been anti- any Dodger prospect."

That's an interesting thing to contemplate. An embarrassing thing if true. I'm not sure that it is true - though it's probably true enough.

I tend to be against low-strikeout rate pitchers. A big moment for me was applauding the choice to trade Prokopec instead of Gagne.

Also, back when Joel Guzman was the bees' knees, I fretted over his plate discipline and thought he was overrated. Then, when everyone started trashing him, I continued to fret over his plate disicpline but thought he was underrated.

And I sold high on Reggie Abercrombie, so to speak.

But I guess I tend to be pro-prospect. But more relevantly, I feel, is that I tend not to be impressed by what prospects get traded for. If the guy we're getting is worth it, I can let the prospect go.

371 - Setting fire to one's equipment displays a basic knowledge of chemistry, does it not?

Wilson Betemit never set fire to his equipment.

No news is good news?

Looking at the 2006 archive we got wind of Guzman/Lugo at 1:23pm.

Isn't Venting Day similar to Springfield's Whacking Day?

375 - Ha - I didn't even notice.

380 - Yeah, you have to wait for the epilogue.

358

... Well, that's going to be my last post about the Dodger GM this season. It's nothing that most everyone here hasn't said already. I mean, the illustrious Greg Brock has pretty much nailed my thoughts on everything -- almost to the letter.

I just wanted to get my 2 cents in; it's been a busy day at work, and I just found out about the trade about 20 minutes ago.

Doesn't Ned seem like the kinda guy who other GMs would hold out on until the last minute, expecting him to panic and cave and give into whatever they want in order to make the deal work?

I see him as someone without "hand", who is easy to manipulate.

Here we go.....

369. Try fangraphs dot com. I looked up all of Proctor's stats compared to league average there. He was average-below average or poor on all of them except for LOB%.
vr, Xei

The posting this deadline day is so intense I've been trying to catch up for at least a half hour so I can contribute something, but every time I refresh there is more to read. Jon do you have any stats on most posts in a given time period.
I feel like a lot of people that we didn't get value for Betemit, but I'm not that upset because he is in a spot where he just wouldn't get to play much.
Hold'em Logan--just a few more minutes!!!

From previous thread:

647. Maddux also melted down in the playoffs.

Maybe so. But as I watched that game I had the feeling that things might have gone a bit differently for Maddux had there been someone in left field who could actually play defense.

I liked the setting equipment on fire thing.

If he's got a good head on his shoulders, it's symbolic and funny. Or he's just mental.

385

... Ahhh, yes. We all want the hand. Hand is tough to get. You gotta get the hand right from the opening.

Any chance that ESPN ever realizes that they need to run their deadline show to about 30 minutes after the deadline?

370 Why? No really, I have been reading this all day and I even commented earlier on it but no one has actually come up with a concrete reason why that should be so.

Betemit is out of options but he has never established himself as an everyday player. He certainly won't with the Yankees barring some injury to their infield. Since they don't pinch hit much in the AL, it wil be interesting to see where they slot him in their lineup.

So, go ahead, give me Wilson's 3 outcomes, his home run pct., but he wasn't in the future for the Dodgers and he probably was always going to be tough to deal because he has to stay on the MLB roster.

The Dodgers have pitching problems, they are trying to solve them. Does this move preclude a Meloan call up, probably not. Would Meloan have solved all their bullpen issues, probably not.

It will not be able to eat lunch until I find out what happens.

I'm surprised the Giants weren't able to do anything.

It = I

393
I believe answering three of your own questions in one comment is grounds for reporting you to the Multilateral Commission for the Elimination Of Jim Tracy-like Rhetorical Questions.

395 Rotoworld made a funny about Matt Morris... They apparently had some conversations with Seattle without a positive resolution (unless you're a Mariners fan).

397 Donald Rumsfeld, chairman.

394 or else it gets the hose again?

I just checked ESPN and they already have a football show on.

[393] he has never established himself as an everyday player

so it's betemit's fault that the dodgers pencil nomar into the lineup when betemit is out OPSing him by .140?

establishing depends on people allowing you to play.

390 Proctor's bonfire has helped me better accept the deal. It's very Bill Lee.

Nationals stand pat.

Confusing. I get that trading Cordero might have been hard, but I'm surprised no deal could be worked up for Rauch that made sense on both sides.

Chris at Cap Punishment has been fond of pointing out lately that the CW on Bowden has just totally flipped -- he used to be seen as a flailing transaction machine (PT Bowden!), and now he's seen as overly cautious/demanding and unwilling to pull the trigger. Just odd.

388 - I'm thinking if Bonds plays tonight, we could break records for one day.

The comment record in one thread is over 1,600, but I'll start a new thread before the game.

There were 186 comments in the previous thread dated July 31. So we passed 600 by about 1 p.m.

404- Did he quit drinking after the DUI?

Betemit is out of options but he has never established himself as an everyday player

Has Juan Pierre?

"Establishing yourself as an everyday player" isn't something players can just do: it's up to Management.

On July 3, Betemit went 3-4 with a HR and a 2B. He was benched the next day.

On July 14, he went 4-6 with HR and a 2B. He was benched the next day.

On July 18, he went 2-4. He was benched the next day.

On July 21, he went 1-2 with 2 BBs. He was benched the next day.

Yeah, and I don't get the Giants standing pat either. Though I'm sure they tried to dump some of their vets (um, right?), but Morris has been horrible lately so they probably couldn't get much for him. But we never even heard their vets mentioned in trade rumors. Very odd.

Meanwhile, the Phillies just acquired 28 year-old reliever and wife beater/biter Julio Mateo from the Mariners. Um... huh.

393 WARNING: Wild Analogy Ahead. If you're hungry, and you have a $100 bill in your pocket, you can go to a nice restaurant and spend that money on a rib-eye steak with lobster tails and a nice bottle of wine, or you can go to McDonald's, buy a Big Mac and fries, and tell the kid behind the counter to keep the change. Both scenarios will solve the problem of you being hungry. One is more optimal (at least, if you like eating good food) and a better use of your resources.

I believe, and so do many on this board, that Betemit was more valuable than the front office thought he was. I think he should have been able to bring more back in trade than Scott Proctor, a very average middle-inning relief pitcher.

To tie it back to my wild analogy: If the Dodgers have to trade Betemit, at least get the steak and lobster. If they have to acquire Scott Proctor, at least get the change back from the kid.

410 - Unfortunately the steak dinner costs $150, and McDonalds isn't equipped to break a hundred.

Fine then, if you won't pay $100 for a Big Mac, you don't have to. You're still hungry though.

409 Mateo will be part of an excellent one-two punch, so to speak, along with 27-year-old reliever and wife beater Brett Myers.

Then again, we have Eric Cyr in the minors -- who are we to be casting stones?

410 So, just so I'm clear, the Dodgers should have gotten dessert, er, another player, thrown in the deal? I can see that argument. If nothing else, I'm now hungry. Lunch, then catch up on work, now that I'm less worried about trade deadline.

397 Touche'

I've accepted that trades like the one that happened to Betemit are.... just part of the ride. Everybody hear knows that either we should have played Betemit more, got more for Betemit, not traded him at all, etc.

411 - Of course, I'd have just gone into my backyard and picked a couple apples off my tree. Still got my $100, not hungry anymore, and probably better off for having eaten an apple rather than a steak or burger anyway.

407
"Establishing yourself as an everyday player" isn't something players can just do: it's up to Management.

The guy was our starting 3rd basemen this year.
He had his chance; remember?

I assume this scenario stars Brian Cashman as the Hamburglar.

407 Yep, Juan Pierre has establshed himself by playing regularly for 4 different clubs including one that won a World Series.

Now is he a good player? That is a different question. But Juan Pierre has at least convinced 4 different organizations that he should play everyday. Wilson, hasn't with two and probably won't with the Yankees.

411 The Dodgers just paid $100 for a Big Mac. I think they should've just paid $5, or whatever Big Macs cost nowadays.

If you're really, really hungry, and there's no place else open, and the owner of the McDonald's is being a jerk and trying to gouge you, then maybe you go up to $10 or $15. Any more than that and, well, it won't kill you to skip a meal.

I have officially beaten this analogy to death, and then some.

410 - This analogy breaks down when you take into consideration that there are only, perhaps, 5 restaurants in town who even want to sell you a meal for $100. The others want considerably more. So you settle for the best meal you can get for your $100 (assuming you are determined to spend the money).

Seriously folks, I doubt that our GM was being generous when he offered Betemit. That was simply the going rate for a buyer of pitching at the trade deadline. Simple supply and demand.

Now whether he should have felt compelled to spend the money in the first place is worth discussing...

Until somebody defends the proposition that another tired out relief pitcher is more valuable to this team than a (if nothing else) good LH pinch hitter/utility infielder, I can't get on board seeing Proctor as filling a need without expense. It's not like pinch hitting is worthless. And it's not like what this bullpen really needed was another guy who threw too much in the first half.

418 Awesome.

Ned is Mayor McCheese.

Old friend Chan Ho Park starts tonight for Round Rock in Las Vegas:

>> NOTES -- The 51s placed outfielder Choo Freeman on the inactive list following the death of his grandmother, and pitcher Dwayne Pollok was promoted to Las Vegas from Class-A Inland Empire. <<

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/8825242.html

It's 1:33. Is it safe to say the trade deadline has passed?

Big Macs cost an average of $3.41 in the US.

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9448015

418 - And Olmedo Saenz as Grimace.

Ned is still probably better than Mitch Kupchak and Jimmy Buss.

426 - But how consistent are those prices?

The guy was our starting 3rd basemen this year.
He had his chance; remember?

Betemit had one bad month.
Nomar had 2 bad months.
Pierre has had 4 bad months.

There are plenty of stars that couldn't establish themselves as everyday players with their original team- Brian Giles, Travis Hafner, David Ortiz. Instead of evaluating what other people have thought of a player, why not just evaluate the player?

425 Probably, although the Braves just acquired Royce Ring from the Padres for Wilfredo Ledezma and Will Startup.

Per ESPN Radio in Vegas, Delwyn Young called-up. Yay!!!

I think the fact that Betemit has not established himself as a major league regular is a bit of hooey. Playing behind Chippper Jones and Rafy Furcal in Atlanta does not give one much of a chance.
He did his bit in 330 at bats here to earn the job but it was given to someone else who did NOT earn it.
Betemit's number one Pecota comp is Carlos Guillen in 2001. When you check it out you can understand why. Ned better hope that Pecota is wrong because otherwise this trade will look as bad as the one that sent Carlos Guillen for a middle infielder who was out of baseball within a year.

432 That last guy missed his calling as an IT consultant.

At least they won't have to pay much more than Startup money for the two Wills. {sorry}

433 Catchers of the National League, beware.

433 Good to know. Did it mention which reliever is being demoted? I would assume Hull, but I can hope for Hernandez's DFA...

So Martinez is our backup third baseman?

435 - You're on fire today, Eric. (Insert Scott Proctor joke here.)

433 Really? Wow. Cool. I'd forgotten he was a switch-hitter, too, so it sort of makes sense, but I was still expecting Abreu to come back to replace Betemit. (Especially since they shouldn't let Young anywhere near the infield.)

Go Delwyn!!!!

I suspect the Ramon starts at second against Lowry. Don't be surprised to see Delwyn there. The best high school athlete I've seen as a coach (although I was coaching cross country and he played football and baseball).

I'm glad he'll get a shot as a role player. He's ripped it up in AAA this year. The pride of our Antelope Valley!

441 I'm pretty sure Abreu is still out with pain in his side. He hasn't played since he was demoted

441
Abreu hasn't played in a week, injured. Delwyn can play second base just fine.

So, the gloveless hitting machine gets a shot. Good for him.

Now hit a ton in your first 10 AB's so the team likes you.

Yeah I was just going to say.. is Delwyn going to play second?

You're right about Abreu - I'd forgotten he was ailing. Makes sense (but I disagree about Young playing second base; I think even he admitted not too long ago he was pretty bad over there - but I guess in a pinch, yeah...)

445 And don't feel bad if they're all singles. Its how we do things. And god forbid don't take a walk. We are not impressed by such things from rookies.

Come on now...his number #2 comp is Dave Hollins. It is a bad trade, but not an unreasonable one. It is quite possible Proctor will have be more valuable this season.

I do not support this trade.

That said, If Delwyn is called up and Roberto is DFA the Dodgers lose Betemit but gain Proctor and Young.

445 - In his first 10 at-bats with the Dodgers, Betemit had two singles, two doubles and a homer, and one strikeout.

444 "Delwyn can play second base just fine."

This myth still seems to be floating around out there, and I'm not sure why. Young was, by all accounts, a really bad second baseman who has made himself into an OK outfielder. From last week's Baseball America profile:

-----
Before the 2004 season, the Dodgers suggested he move to the outfield, but Young talked them into letting him stay at second for one more season, hoping to change their minds. By the end of the season, it was Young's mind that was changed.

"I'll be honest, my defense was terrible. I had so many bumps and bruises that most second basemen didn't have. I was fighting a losing battle," Young said. "It was a pride thing. I didn't want to admit I failed."
-----

I don't think Young can play second base anymore, or really that he ever could. I would also be shocked if we actually got the opportunity to find out.

449 A bad trade, by definition, is unreasonable. It's bad because it goes against reason.

But it's not a huge deal. I agree with you.

451 So I guess that doesn't matter either.

Delwyn, just shake a magic 8-ball. And rake.

452 - So Delwyn Young is a second baseman in the same way that Ramon Martinez is a catcher?

One guy on ITD calls Betemit "one of the 30-best third basemen in baseball."

That is one way to cover one's bets, I suppose.

Brock, your snark level is high today. I shudder to think what would happen if Kershaw was dealt.

Matt Morris to the Pirates, apparently, for no one in particular.

458 - http://tinyurl.com/2cxuag

458 Is that a more inappropriate trade than Wiggington to Houston?

457 I'll dial it down.

If Kershaw got traded, I would not be the one to worry about.

460 - Doesn't say anything about cash going with him, so the Pirates just bought Morris for about $10M.

460

opens the door for a Snell trade announcement.

I'm sure Proctor will help...

But it is going to be tough to watch Betimit hit home runs over that Yankee Stadium right field porch.....If he gets playing time he hits 25-35 ding dongs...

I know I'm late on all of this, but I'm not a fan of the deal...

If Kershaw got traded, and the return was something less than a Snellish pitcher, I am guessing that Jon would make a plea for sanity, close the comments, and tell everyone to breathe and come back tomorrow.

Betemit as steak and lobster? If so, then what do we call Yunel Escobar and Kelly Johnson, since those two explain why the Braves let Betemit go after years in their organization. Betemit had forever and a day with the Braves to establish himself as an everyday player. He didn't and so we gave up an even worse pitcher than Proctor in Baez and one AWOL Aybar in exchange for Betemit. Some otherwise ought to be happy, since with Pierre playing everyday, we only need the 4 outfielders and so now there's room for one Andy LaRoche to take Nomar's job from him if he's able. And so the Yankees weren't stupid and knew that someone on the Dodgers was blocking LaRoche. They understood correctly that while Ramon can't hit much, at least he knows how to field his position, while Betemit is simply clueless in this regard. I was willing to accept as inexperience the first time Betemit charged the bunt when the bunt was for the purpose of moving the runner from second to third, but not so in relation to the second time he charged the bunt when he should have been anchored at third and let the pitcher do his job and cover the third base line in the described circumstance.

I won't otherwise comment on what it means to harp on the "blocking" of talent and then complain when someone just removed a player standing in the way of some other player believed to have talent and who otherwise appears to indeed be knocking down the door right now. Oh, and the new kid, well, at least he can't be taken out of the game or otherwise struck out looking simply by changing the pitcher and the hand he throws the ball with, which was always Betemit's fatal defect and reduces him from steak to that 99 cent double cheeseburger, at least in light of everything else.

458- How does that happen? How does Littlefield decide to pick up a $15 million, or whatever's left, contract right now? I don't get that at all, unless it's an Odalis situation.

The Giants and Pirates moving at the deadline. This shifts the balance of something, somehow. Maybe.

Barry Bonds bashers won't be caught looking at history

>> Every time Barry Bonds heads to the plate looking to tie Hank Aaron's major league home-run record of 755, Kramer and about 103 of his cohorts will shield their eyes with their "Bond-folds" blindfolds and proudly display their BoycottBarry.com T-shirts. <<

## The Asterisk Party, a group designed to promote awareness of baseball's drug problem, will hold giant foam asterisks in protest as well. ##

http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/articles/8828027.html

Betemit greatly improved his power last year, and his patience this year. For the most part, he was a lousy player on the Braves, but his skills have shot up over the last two years.

He didn't deserve a spot in the starting lineup two years ago, now, you have to give a guy with Betemit's skill set a lot of rope to hang himself with.

So Rangers offered Tex 140mil/8yrs and he turned them down.

good luck Atlanta!

That trade is odd.

I guess the Pirates figure they will be good in the next few years and Matt Morris will help them make the playoffs.

The Pirates are also delusional.

I don't normally pine for the days of Steve as he and I were on the opposite spectrum but man when I see so many posts all okay with trading for a worthless middle relief pitcher I do wish he'd come in here and do some zinging. And then quickly leave again.

I live in Alabama where it's impossible to avoid the Braves. I liked Betemit when he was with them, and loved the deal that brought him to the Dodgers. But I also knew the team would not keep both him and LaRoche indefinitely. In the spring, I assumed it would be LaRoche to move on. In the end, yes, I wish we got more for Betemit. But the bottom line for me is that the Dodgers still have Loney, Kemp, Ethier, Broxton, Bills, Hu, Kershaw, DeJesus, Young, and the rest of the farm. Sometimes the best deal a GM can make is the one he turns down. I give Ned credit for that.

Although I've lurked here a long time, I only signed up to post today. I expect I'll go back to lurking now. But thanks for not chunking any GatorAde bottles at me.

I thought Steve locked himself in a Nuclear Bunker that is set to only open at the exact time Juan Pierre's deal expires.

470
Hey, if you haven't cut it at 24 and displaced all-stars like Furcal and Chipper you just don't have what it takes. I don't care if you've got the best IS somethings in the world on your current team, you were a sub you shall always be a sub. What do you mean Ryan Howard was in the minors at the same age as Betemit. Are you kidding me, the Phillies knew what they were doing. He was percolating, percolating I tell you.

Everyone's talking about Big Macs when I want a Royale with Cheese.

Winter Wishlist

-Trade Pierre, Hu and McDonald for Snell
-Trade Furcal for Manny Ramirez
-Sign Arod for a billion dollars to play short
-Win World Series

476
I think Steve's disdain of relief pitchers far exceeds his disdain of Juan Pierre.

I'm disappointed in Steve. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he's Dead To Me at this point.

Betemit traded:

I'm picturing Tom Hanks in Cast Away (2000) yelling from his boat, as his volleyball disappears over the horizon.

"WIIIIILLLLLSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!!!!"

re 482:

long time lurker first time poster!

We are OK with it because you just can't go overboard on a trade that might cost/gain us a win or two, but really shouldn't be worth zinging about. Wilson might be an above average 3B fo the next 4 years, but he might never reach his 40 % PECOTA. Proctor is just a warm body and as a middle reliever is totally unpredictable. He's probably an improvement on Rudy and maybe even for Joe.

I'd argue that bad trades can be reasonable btw. (if not Reasonable)After all we don't know a trade is bad until laters, right? The Ventura trade is still alive!

That is a really good handle, 482.

So is The Barry going to play tonight?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/betemwi01.php

for easy reference....

483 Cool name. Nice to, er, type letters on a keyboard at you.

484 ToyCannon is taking over the anger department right now.

I'm just happy Ned Colletti didn't mess up too badly. Which is sad.

482 Isn't that phrase a rule #15 violation? ;-)

Terrible trade. I like Betemit... I agree with everything Jon said on this. Why not promote Meloan and keep Betemit? Why trade for an aging middle reliever?

[480] i miss steve.

Unbelievable- This from Nate Silver during his trade deadline chat:

JoeR (Syracuse): I assume Betimet a better run producer than Nomar at this stage of his career, and lots cheaper. Do you think there was any thought to moving Mr. Hamm?
Trade Deadline Team: I'm not sure there's much thought in Chavez Ravine, period. Committing to Nomar at 3B smacked of desperation to begin with, and now the Dodgers are locked in since LaRoche isn't hitting any this year. This is the rare trade deadline deal that hurt a team both in the near-term and the long-term. Really , I think the Dodgers are one of two or three teams out there that don't understand the basics of how you create runs -- that's why they signed, and why they took one look at Betemit's .220-something batting average and punted on him.

"Committing to Nomar at 3b smacking of desperation to begin with, and now the Dodgers are locked in since La Roche isn't hitting any this year"

The man just hit his 11th home run of the MONTH. And we pay money and listen to their chats to gleam information from them. Nate insults Dodger managment and yet he himself doesn't have a clue what is going on with the Dodger's themselves. It is your job, pay attention or don't give advice.

I agree with Nate, Andy Laroche's 1.008 OPS is proof that he isn't hitting this year. It needs to be higher, he's in the PCL!

With respect to the mindset that "Proctor must be the best player Ned could get for Betemit because Ned wouldn't have traded for Proctor if there were a better player available":

I think this is bogus. Ned didn't set out to trade Betemit for the best player he could get in return: Ned set out to acquire a relief pitcher. Once that decision was made, he then contacted teams regarding relief pitchers and which Dodger players they would want in return.

Given Ned the maximum benefit of the doubt involves concluding that he got the best available reliever for Betemit, not the best player. It's possible (though unlikely) that Proctor was also the best player available, and if he was, it was by coincidence.

Anyone remember when Nomar's body couldn't handle the rigors of third base? So long ago.

492- Granted he hasn't noticed that LaRoche has turned his year around recently, but over all he's pretty well right. Betemit's a Yankee today because Colletti re-signed Nomar, and because he thinks batting average is important.

488 You and I have argued about Ned, heck I even let you have your semi-regular rant about Fredo now and then.

Let's put it this way, GMs whose feet will be on the fire by the "tough" LA press corp and local talk radio guys will be:
1. Mitch Kupchak, why couldn't he convince Kevin McHale that Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Brian Cook and Jordan Farmar were not equal to the Celtics' offer.
2. Bill "I don't know why I even have a phone in July" Stoneman for yet another trade deadline with no trades.
3. Ned Colletti, who will get praised for not giving up the kids, trying to solve a need with little cost (my prediction for Tony Jackson's thoughts) and from Mason and Ireland, trying to get better.

That's the LA sports media folks.

495
To be honest, I still think he is going to get injured and I am quite surprised he hasn't. Got to give him credit, because he has put the work in to be in good shape.

485 and 488: thanks. I wouldn't have been able to come up with that had I not recently watched the "Ghosts of Flatbush."

489: I am actually Tom Hanks posting here, so it's all good.

It was always the arm I was worried about and still am. If he was playing 1st base instead of Loney...

The Lakers just depress me and it has nothing to do with Garnett.

495 In fact should we not consider that the defensive switch is what perked up Nomar's bat? Or was it Bill Mueller? Or Beckham's debut?

Sorry Podres, 489 was meant for 481 not you. And it's all even less funny than it was then.

--
What's a link to that Nate Silver chat?

Hasn't Kobe proclaimed that he wants to be a Celtic yet?

Really , I think the Dodgers are one of two or three teams out there that don't understand the basics of how you create runs -- that's why they signed, and why they took one look at Betemit's .220-something batting average and punted on him.

I actually sort of agree with that. I don't think Ned pays any attention to sabermetrics at all. The only metrics where Nomar is superior to Betemit is BA and strikeouts. I guess that was the deciding factor.

The Dodgers are scoring runs at a decent clip this year, but I really do think that's despite Colletti, not because of him. Pierre has not contributed to the offense in any meaningful way, and I think he got lucky with Gonzo. And with the fact that the farm system was loaded with ML-ready talent when he joined the club.

492 Bseball Prospectus saying something negative about Ned.

I'm shocked.

I would think even the most casual observer of minor league stats would have noticed LaRoche's improvement after he came back from LA.

And ToyCannon's right, we (at least me and ToyCannon) certainly pay them to be more than just casual observers.

503
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=332

New post up top.

Ah, Toy, I believe those BP chatters corrected themselves because of you:

"molokai (LA): La Roche isn't hitting this year? He just hit his 11th home run of the month. MONTH

Trade Deadline Team: I love you, Nate, but you missed this one. Andy LaRoche is ready for his close-up right now, and every day he spends blocked by Nomar Garciaparra's contract is a massive mistake.

At least Garciaparra is now the third-best option the Dodgers have at third base."

Nomar Garciaparra is also tops in the league in GNARP (goofy name above replacement player).

496- I should say, I find it really irritating that anybody doing a chat at BP should be careless about something like that. I takes all of twenty seconds to look up LaRoche's line and see that it's gotten much better than it was last month, when the not hitting a lick line was closer to true. Given that he's not under a real time constraint, that kind of sloppiness doesn't make sense to me. It's not cheating to look things up.

509 (Wait, who else do the Dodgers have for third besides Nomar and LaRoche? Am I missing someone? Abreu? Or are they sarcastically implying Saenz or Martinez would be better, too?)

Is it just me or is the immediate future a RH Laroche/LH Loney platoon with Nomar playing 1st and 3b depending on the pitcher?

How bad a trade can it be if we get another 3 years of control in Proctor? Can he start? Will Bull's arm fall off if he keeps pitching the 8th so often?

Call up Meloan and we have Meloan, Beimel, Proctor, Brox, Saito available for the last three innings of winnable games...Seanez and Hernandez have potential to get it together...until then...mop up duty only.

504 That was you zinging Nate Silver right? The anonymous BP team retracted the LaRoche comment thusly:

I love you, Nate, but you missed this one. Andy LaRoche is ready for his close-up right now, and every day he spends blocked by Nomar Garciaparra's contract is a massive mistake. At least Garciaparra is now the third-best option the Dodgers have at third base.

Molokai IS ToyCannon.

505 I don't get comments like the Dodgers are winning despite Ned or they are scoring runs despite Ned. What does that mean? Most of us have jobs, do we perform despite our bosses?

I am going to keep saying this, he decides whose on the 25 man roster so if they win, lose, score or don't score, its because of the guys he puts on the roster for Grady to manage.

Its clear Frank likes Ned. The Dodgers announced yesterday that they have already sold 3.5 million tickets this year for the 4th straight year or since McCourt bought the team.

I am not saying you have to like Ned or agree with him, but its his team now so I just don't think you can say that they do anything despite him being the GM. Its just not logical, he has the Com.

On the micro level, this deal really pisses me off. It happened because of Colletti and Little's mismanagement of the roster, the committment to the Nomar death march. Betemit is the best .230 hitter in baseball. Proctor is overworked and his k/bb ratio blows. Now I don't think Betemit is ever going to set the world on fire but he's been better than Nomar since April and at the very worst they should be platooning right now. This is another classic sell low move by Colletti. Why is it we do a better job of scouting raw 18 year olds who've never played professionally before than we do of scouting "proven veterans" who are supposed to be known quantities?

On the other hand, LaRoche is the one we're looking to for the future, so Betemit was going to get traded eventually and hey we need all the pitching help we can get. Maybe the switch in leagues will help him out. Only Colorado in this division throws out a lineup to be scared of so hopefully he can mow down the Padres and the Giants. Note to Scott, your Dodger career will be insufferable if you give up 756 this week.

I'd like to have done better, but Betemit was on his way out one way or another. I just hope that when the time comes, and it will be soon, LaRoche will be able to wrestle the job away from Nomar. At some point, we have to get the balls to figure out something to do with him to get LaRoche in the lineup like we did to get Loney in. Also, if we think Meloan can't hold up to the rigors of being in a big league bullpen, we should have traded him with Betemit to get something than Proctor in return.

516- That's nearly the definition of post hoc ergo propter hoc. That credit for the parts of this team that were in place before he got here are should accrue to him because he's here now and didn't trade everybody else for Scott Proctor is a little absurd, isn't it?

I don't know what ticket sales have to do with anything, in this context.

May I add my two cents? Oh, wait. Somebody added mine already.

In fact, trading for a middle reliever is almost by definition against good judgment, unless you're giving up a fringe minor-leaguer in the process.

Yep.

516 - I don't get comments like the Dodgers are winning despite Ned or they are scoring runs despite Ned. What does that mean? Most of us have jobs, do we perform despite our bosses?

It's obvious. The boss (Colletti) picks the workers. If the job gets done (team wins games) despite repeated bad trades, it means that the writer disagrees with the merits of the discussed trades. It's also the post hoc fallacy, as 518 points out.