Declaring Betemit worthless because of strikeouts is akin to declaring Shaq worthless because of missed free throws.

I simply don't like the move. We need pitching, but we need to get value for value. Betemit complimented a solid offense and with Kent ailing and Abreu on the shelf in the minors, we'll miss him right now.

It only makes sense if there are more moves being made.

Also, I'd prefer Dotel over Proctor. I hope Farnsworth is a throw in and we get two arms out of it. It isn't a done deal yet, is it Jon?

Assuming this is the only trade, we need to make two moves now:

1) DFA Hernandez or send down Hull
2) Call-up a position player (LaRoche or Young?)

3
Young was an infielder before moving to the outfield. He was a solid second baseman. If Kent is down for a little while, that might be the move.

Hernandez won't be DFAed as long as depth remains an issue.

I don't like giving up on Betemit, unfortunately he was a man without a position because of Nomar's contract, and the improved play of LaRoache. Good Luck BoomBoom

(a repost from the LAT zone of the previous thread.)

I just looked up Scott Proctor on Wikipedia. As Wikipedia is wont to do after a celebrity death, they've already got him traded back to the Dodgers in July 2007.

Looks like the guy is a hothead! Two retaliatory beanings...and about a month ago, he set his own equipment on fire after some bad pitching.

Like you crazy kids like to say, I'm "meh" on this deal. I'm glad to have some help in the bullpen for the next few weeks, but it seems like we gave up a lot to get Betemit based on his potential, and now have only a mediocre middle reliever to show for it. There must have been some internal frustration or disappointment with him.

Also, those who said Betemit playing second base on Saturday was a showcase were clearly proven right.

Ryan Church would be a reasonable lefty off the bench for the Dodgers.

Assuming Betemit can play 2B, Church and Rauch for Betemit and a decent pitching prospect might have made more sense for both clubs.

Not the Minotaur or anything like that. Greg Miller maybe? Too much to give?

I'm against the trade. I think we should have given up something less than Betemit to acquire a below average middle reliever. Isn't the rule of thumb in MOST trades that the team acquiring middle relievers is the team that came out behind. Others have stated that we have Meloan who could do the job of Proctor. If this leads to a call up of LaRoche that is a nice by product, but does he play that much over Nomar? Betemit should've netted a better player or players. A quick look at Proctor shows he is a 2007 version of Danys Baez.
HR/9: poor
BABIP: average
whip: below average
hr/9: below average
k/bb: poor
bb/9: poor
k/p: average
era: average
Me don't likey those #s. This is a throw away trade considering who we gave up.
vr, Xei

WFAN's Yankees beat reporter says the deal will be done once Proctor passes a physical.

Not crazy about the trade, but if it was a choice between Betemit and Laroche to go, I can deal. I don't get it from the Yankee standpoint. It's not like he's going to get a lot of playing time at short, third, or even second.

Given how dim the bulbs are lately, Hull will get sent down and we can watch Roberto and Scott do the baserunner tango while Abreu grounds out to 2nd when we need a pinch hit 3 run homerun with a tough righty on the mound in the 8th inning. I hate turning into D4P. I'm out of here.

Reposting my LATed ramblings...

"I am not a big Proctor fan by any means, but it seems a little presumptuous to assume the Meloan would come in and pitch as well in the majors as he has in AA. How many times does a young player fall flat on his face when promoted."

Nobody's assuming Meloan would pitch as well in the majors as he has in AA. They're assuming that he could pitch at least as well in the majors as Scott Proctor can, or Rudy Seanez, or Roberto Hernandez.

Young, extremely high strikeout pitchers tend to dominate in the majors fairly often, immediately after getting called up. Their stuff usually prevails. Look at J. Weaver, F. Hernandez, Zumaya, Verlander, Gallardo, Lincecum for examples. If anything they tend to have a period of immediate success followed by a few struggles once the league adjusts to them.

10. How about at first?
vr, Xei

10
He has power. He is versatile, can play any infield position, switch hitter. I like him on my team especially since we only gave up Batting Practice Baez to get him.

We should have gotten more for him than Proctor straight up. Hopefully there is more to the deal than reported so far.

The Giants have a tough righty in the bullpen?

The AP is going with the Proctor-Betemit trade now also.

I'm going off somewhere to dream about Mike Trombley.

13 Has Wilson ever played first? (Not that that hasn't seemed to matter much to Torre in the past.)

On the bright side, I'm a lot more confident that LaRoche isn't going anywhere.

I think the issue was if Saito never had his injury issues, than perhaps, they could go with someone like Meloan with the knowledge that they have Beimel, Broxton and Saito. But they have gone through two stretches (about 10 games total) where Saito wasn't available and lets just say, it wasn't pretty.

Proctor gives them a little more insurance in that area.

Also, Andy LaRoche may have finally convince the Front Office that he is the heir apparent at 3B, and I think Ned liked what he saw out of Abreu at 2B.

Am I crazy about the deal, no, but given the other rumors out there, at least this one won't make me grind my teeth at the Stadium tonight.

17. Probably not, but he is an ex SS and a move to first base on the defensive spectrum can't be all that hard. It's not like Andy Phillips is a great fielding and hitting first baseman.
vr, Xei

If Torre was overusing Proctor, and now doesn't have him at all, what does this mean for the Yankees bullpen? Are they calling up Joba to replace him?

this is such a stupid trade. That's about it.

The excitable right-hander is 2-5 with a 3.81 ERA and four blown saves in 52 games this year. He finished off a rough June by burning some of his equipment on the field at Yankee Stadium after a loss to Oakland, and has a 2.84 ERA in July.

Yeah this is the guy who's gonna help us get to the postseason............

This got LAT'd. Sorry to repost, but well, I'm not THAT sorry:

I feel exactly the same way about this as I did about Hee Seop Choi. Both guys are young "three true outcome" players. The team didn't recognize (or didn't value) the upside of either, especially the huge power potential. Both were let go for less than they were worth (Choi was DFAd). Both blows are softened by the presence of a probably superior prospect on the horizon (Loney for Choi and LaRoche for Betemit), but in both cases, the prospect was blocked by Nomar Garciaparra.

I'm sure Proctor will help in the short run, but the short-run bullpen problems are due to injuries, not low quality. So the only justification I can see for calling this a balanced trade is if the Dodgers have a very high discount rate -- that is, if marginal improvement in August 2007 is perceived to be more important than bigger improvement later on (obtained through Betemit's performance or the performance of a better return on the WB trading chip).

I'm in the upset-but-it-could-have-been-worse camp. I think Betemit can be a star. If he can raise his BA to the .270 range, with all that patience and power, he can star for someone.

As for what this means about Colletti, well, it's another poor, needless, but far from disastrous trade. He remains hyperactive, but for whatever reason, knows enough to avoid the D4P type debacle. I used to read the tea leaves, inferring Colletti's player-evaluation criteria, and dreading the huge blunder. Now it looks more and more as though the small trades, while generally not to my liking, are all there is.

So Colletti may be a moron, but he's a risk-averse moron. It'd be much much worse if he were a risk-loving moron.

I have to say, it doesn't speak well of your GM when the consensus reaction to a trade is "Well, I'm happy because it's a bad trade, but not as bad as I thought it would be."

I liked it back in the good ole days when the Yankees were pissed (Randy Johnson) at our GM and wouldn't do business with us anymore.
vr, Xei

22
I approve of the simplicity. I hope you and I are wrong but I feel like Ned had to make some kind of move and this is what he did to appear that he wasn't going to war with Roberto and his ancient arm.

Ughh.... I'd rather have Al Reyes.

12
Considering those tendencies, maybe the Dodgers hope to be able to save Meloan for the post-season. That was a very effective strategy for the Angels(FRod) when they won the World Series…

18 That, and that Cashman's first offer was almost certainly Farnsworth.

25 But that's where we are with Colletti. It's what he is.

Again, I thank the heavens Kim Ng is in there. Protecting the boss from himself.

Nice right up Jon you pointed out some good things, but what if Saito falters with that nagging injury? Here's what I wrote on the previous thread - {668} That makes pretty good sense & if Saito goes on the shelf we'll bump Broxton for the 9th, Proctor for the 8th & hopefully Meloan we'll pitch the 7th in the not so distant future.

What if the plan is to sign A-Rod, put him at short, LaRoche at third, and Hu at second? There are so many ways, present and future, that Betemit could be left as a bench player, that the Dodgers were never going to have a chance to see whether he could live up to his potential long-term. They would likely rather bank on Mueller helping Nomar to turn it around this year, with LaRoche coming up next year and lots of other ways to fill 2B.

Whenever I hear Proctor's name I think about a Seinfeld episode where Kramer was very excited about a personalized license plate. (Limited synopsis, didn't want to violate any rules)

31 You're acting like Proctor isn't a pitcher that could be swapped out for literally hundreds of guys.

32

-trade furcal for snell
-sign arod for short

only way to amend this trade!

It's easy, as an arm-chair GM, to say that Betemit should have brought more, but its quite possible he couldn't bring more after all. This is what the Dodgers were willing to trade, and this is what he brings. Should Proctor's stuff turns out to be above average for a middle reliever this year, then this trade helps the Dodgers.

I just don't see a playoff roster in 07 that would include Hull, Stults, and/or Roberto Hernandez.

Proctor is a piece perhaps, but we need more than one arm.

What is Proctor's contract status?

Young, extremely high strikeout pitchers tend to dominate in the majors fairly often, immediately after getting called up. Their stuff usually prevails. Look at J. Weaver, F. Hernandez, Zumaya, Verlander, Gallardo, Lincecum for examples. If anything they tend to have a period of immediate success followed by a few struggles once the league adjusts to them.

man, you guys are writing some good stuff today or maybe I just agree with what you guys are saying a lot today.

36 I agree with your point. That it's possible that Betemit couldn't bring more than Proctor.

So don't trade him.

36. It's (his stuff) already below average. We have plenty of Proctor clones (or better) at AAA. Betemit had one of the highest OPS on the team.
vr, Xei

It's easy, as an arm-chair GM, to say that Betemit should have brought more, but its quite possible he couldn't bring more after all.

Then why trade him at all? Especially for garbage!

36 I'm quickly coming around to that opinion as well. This trade has been talked about for a while, so it's hard to imagine Ned not calling around to see what else was available.

Despite what people are saying, this trade is much worse than Guzman for Lugo. Lugo was unnecessary, but Guzman was an unproven, troubled minor leaguer. Betemit is a switch hitter, with a .244 ISOpower and .128 ISOpatience, who can play anywhere in the infield. His ceiling is what? A .900 OPS (his career .263 batting average with those peripherals is a .898 OPS) at 2B? For Scott Proctor. Just because we have other options doesn't mean this was anything short of ridiculous.

36
Good point. The price of pitching is steep this July and we need pitching. You have to give up something to get something. It would seem that Betemit would have brought more based on his age, contract status, and upside. However, it is what the price is now and Ned wasn't going to sit pat.

I just hope we have another arm coming. If we really want to make a run at this, we need more than Proctor.

36
We could've held on to Betemit and traded him in the offseason for more of a return.

Proctor's contract status: vr, Xei

Scott Proctor p
1 year/$445,923 (2007)
re-signed 3/07
1 year/$352,675 (2006)
ML service: 2.010

39 Amen.

32 "They would likely rather bank on Mueller helping Nomar to turn it around this year, with LaRoche coming up next year and lots of other ways to fill 2B."

So are we eating $10 million next year, or is Nomar going to be a bench player?

I'm surprised none of the beat writers have reported this yet.

What I still can't get over was the rumors that we could have had Dotel for Abreu, but somehow he was untradeable. I'd rather see Betemit at 2B next year than Abreu. Clearly.

44 Yes, you have to give up something to get something, but I think the people who are upset with this trade would say that the Dodgers didn't get anything.

Personally, I'm in the camp that Eric describes so aptly in 25.

It's easy, as an arm-chair GM, to say that Betemit should have brought more, but its quite possible he couldn't bring more after all

The problem with this stems from defining "more". People define "more" differently, and I think it's say to conclude that Ned defines "more" differently from most SABR-minded folks.

So the next questions become:

Which pitcher gets dumped: Hull, Houlton, Hernandez, or Seanez?
Which hitter gets called up: LaRoche, Abreu, or Young?

I think it will be Hull and Young. Though if I were making the decision, it would probably be Hernandez and LaRoche.

39 If there are no plans to use him, present or future, other than as a pinch hitter and a start once a week, then the Dodgers may get more value by having Proctor pitch the 7th instead of Seanez. A reliever turned bad like Seanez can cost a lot more games than Betemit can win.

40,41 I don't agree that Proctor is garbage and I think he is a better pitcher than Seanez and Hernandez.

If the season had been played backwards, then Betemit's incredible July would have locked him into the starting job for the year. Instead a bad April and he suddenly became worthless.

49-Those are my feelings, too. I don't see Abreu as anything more than a utility infielder, ever. We just don't need another guy who hits .270 without power and without ever taking a walk.

If anyone needs something on the lighter side to read:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6527

Sigh. I'm sad about losing Betemit for not all that much of a return, though it's obvious the team didn't see much of a place for him. As I said in previous thread, I still get this trade more from the Dodgers' POV than the Yankees, though. Again, unless Wilson's gonna play first. I guess we'll see. I wish him the best. I like Proctor more than most people here seem to at the moment, but am never a fan of trading young talent for middle relief. Yeah, this is another of those "Well, it coulda been worse" trades I guess. It's possible Meloan and Proctor will both be helping the bullpen come September, at least.

And here's one vote for giving Hull a chance over Hernandez.

I'm assuming Abreu will get the call up over LaRoche, since Abreu can bat both right and left...?

53 I can't get behind the argument that trading an above average player for a not-good middle reliever is acceptable because you are mismanaging the good player.

Don't mismanage the good player.

Out of curiosity for those who are somewhat optimistic about this, how is Scott Proctor any different from Roberto Hernandez? Hernandez was pretty good last year, then saw his strikeout rate drop and his walk rate rise this year. Proctor got pretty much the same thing this year, but while Hernandez has a huge track record of being a relatively reliable reliever, Proctor has one year.

Why would you be excited about Proctor and not like Chubbs?

So are we eating $10 million next year, or is Nomar going to be a bench player?

What can he possibly become, other than a bench player, unless he is traded?

I agree that I'd rather have Betemit than Abreu, but if you were the Royals, would you rather have Betemit, Abreu, or Kyle Davies? I'm not certain that this came down to trading Betemit because Abreu was untouchable, but maybe you have a better source than I do, since I have none.

53. Meloan
58. Yep!
vr, Xei

60 Starting at third base, number five....

Starting at third base, number five....

Queue: Standing ovation from crowd at Dodger Stadium

52
Abreu if healthy. If not, it depends on if Kent is able to go. Nomar to second and LaRoche to third? Not likely. I think Ramon M will play second this series if Kent can't go. I'd prefer it to be Betemit, but if the trade goes through, that option is gone.

Hull first to go with Roberto on a very short leash.

Only thirty tw days until the return of Giovanni Carrara?

Last I heard, Abreu isn't healthy enough to come back yet.

It really needs to be LaRoche up. This will give Nomar some more time at 1st (leaving Loney as an impact LH bat off the bench on certain days).

Er, "Cue: Standing ovation from crowd at Dodger Stadium"

Peep this everyone:

Cards are shopping him and the Cubs and Indians are interested. Jayson Stark says the Dodgers are working to acquire him for a mid-level prospect as of Tuesday afternoon. Jason Isringhausen is also available, but he says he would not waive his no-trade clause even if his new team exercised his $8M option for 2008. The Tigers like Izzy. Russ Springer is not available....This rumor was last updated on 10:32 AM - Jul 31, 07. The source of this rumor was Jayson Stark.

58 I see it as trading a player with the potential to be an above-average 3B or 2B for an above average middle reliever. The word potential is key because he has not lived up to his billing for the long-term yet. I don't think Nomar over Betemit this year at 3B is abusing Betemit -- isn't Nomar doing a lot better after the All Star break (.913 OPS)? With the pedigree he has, doesn't that at least equal Betemit's potential to be an impact player during the second half?

64
People are lining up for standing ovations?

68
Pertains to Troy Percival

Huh? Why does anybody care about a .231 hitting backup when our starting third baseman is hitting .285?

68 who's that? Percival?

69 See, I just fundamentally disagree with your premise that Betemit is potential. He's not. He's outhitting most of the guys on the team. He's a good player.

Proctor's performance (and peripherals) indicate that he is not good. It may be overuse, or whatever. But he is not good.

Right now I wish the Yanks had stuck to their word of never dealing with the Dodgers again.

I don't know...I'm still unwilling to pass judgment on the Betemit-Proctor deal until I've had a chance to see how Grady et.al manage/coach Proctor in real time.

So a Yankees-Dodgers trade is historically pretty rare, right? Is Proctor the only guy to be involved in two of them?

72 Ha.

Pretty much.

73
Yes it's Troy Percival

58 - given the structure of the team yesterday, where do you play Betimet other than on the bench? As I said late in the last thread, the present at third Nomar and LaRoche is the future, that doesn't leave much place for Betimet.

Betimet became expendable because there was no place for him to play this year or in the next couple of years.

It's not a great trade, it's not even a good trade, but given the shakiness of the bullpen as of late, it's also not a bad move.

It is, I suppose, a traditionalist trade.

69 Just to be clear, Daniel. I don't hate this deal with the fire of a thousands suns. It could very well work out. And if it does, you are correct.

I just don't think it's smart. And it reinforces the negative things we think about Ned.

So if we are spending all this time studying Scott Proctor, does that make us Proctologists?

(Yes, I'm afraid I'll be here all week.)

79 Considering we could have signed him for nothing, I wouldn't like that.

I've always liked Betemit and had high hopes that he would really be productive this year, but he just never has lived up to the "potential". To me he's had too many defensive lapses as well having took too long to get his power. That said, I'm not sure I'd have traded him for Proctor. I'd rather it be him, though, than alot of the other young guys.

74 We'll have to disagree on Betemit. You'll remind me about this discussion if he ever pans out, right?

Do you think Proctor is better or worse than Seanez? Hernandez?

72
Nice of you to come out of the woodwork. I think you showed up last year when we dealt Aybar for Betemit but at that time I disagreed with you as I liked the deal.

80 At the very least, he's a better utility infielder than Ramon Martinez.

Basically I stick by comments of the last few weeks: trading for a reliever is never smart (unless maybe you don't have a closer and are trying to acquire a proven one where proven does not equal Danys Baez). I'm trying to think of a good relieve the Dodgers have received in a trade that helped them. Unfortunately all I can think of are Terry Mulholland and Elmer Dessens.

Both Proctor and Betemit have a 1.5 WARP, this year. So, even with Boom Boom's screwy use pattern, and assuming that Proctor keeps getting used as often, and to the same effect (neither bets I'd take without heavy odds), and that Betemit would have too, the trade doesn't seem to make the team better at all this year. Relief pitching isn't spectacularly more useful than pinch hitting.