Joe Maddon in 2008!

Over the years on this site, I've asked the more saber-minded posters to point to an existing MLB example of a manager who gets it.

I guess Maddon's the guy.

There's some patient management and ownership now in Tampa Bay. The days of Wade Boggs and Fred McGriff acquisitions are long past. It's still hard to imagine the Rays ever finishing higher than third in that division, because they will always have a budget 1/5th of NY's and 1/4th of Boston's, but I'm pulling for them and for Maddon.

2
I think Manny Acta "gets it" too, right...?

This only tangentially relates, but I was thinking last night about the Seattle Mariners, and how their team this year compares to the Dodgers. I mean, how the roster is built, and will the Dodgers of '08 (and 09) have potential to be similar...

You look at their young players coming of age this year - and they probably had a few more great ones ready to come of age this year than the Dodgers do, and then some of their international signings and so on.

And they have a couple of their own overpriced, underperforming veterans to be sure.

I'm not sure what I'm getting at exactly except I see a possible future for the Dodgers in the Mariners, if they don't muck it up too much.

2 Acta, Maddon, Francona are three off the top of my head.

It's not that "old school" doesn't have it's place. Like Maddon said, just gather as much information as you can. How a General Manager or coach wouldn't know what VORP or EqA is baffles me. You don't have to become a total stat nerd.

But wouldn't you want as much information as you can get?

what stat was Grady looking at yesterday that told him to put in Hernandez in the 8th inning down by only one run?

Not sure where he is in SABR statistics, but I'd also like to nominate Mike Scoscia as someone who "gets it."

[7 ] um.. why?

Edwin Jackson has died and gone to heaven.

When I read this article and relate it to the 2007 Dodgers, I just keep on wondering why the Dodgers ignore certain old school numbers, in the case of Tomko and Hendrickson and Hernandez, and have been un willing to take a gamble on what seem to be equal if not better options in the minors. I keep on wondering had Hull Stultz been up longer with the big club in the season, would their overall pitching improved enough to accept some of the risks

Picking up some things I saw at the end of the last thread... From where we stand right now, the Proctor/Hillenbrand/Wells/Sweeney hires look a lot more ridiculous than perhaps they did at the time. It was only how many weeks ago that the Dodgers had the best record in the National League? When the DT day at Dodger Stadium happened, we were all talking to a confident, cocky Dodger owner and PR staff who were looking at the world through first-place goggles, which probably reflects the way Colletti and Little were thinking, too. "My team of proven veterans combined with a few young prodigies like Broxton and Martin is kicking butt. Man, it's great what happens when everyone's 'on the same page.'" The new players were just replacement parts for players they were disappointed in (Tomko, Saenz, Betemit), who would marginally improve what they believed was a first-place team.

Obviously, they were wrong. But had Colletti known the fate awaiting them, would he have done more at the trading deadlines, or less? For some writers and fans, the mistake Colletti made was not getting Teixiera and Blanton. I heard all about that on Fox's broadcast yesterday. Is that going to be what McCourt thinks, too? That we just needed more "proven veterans" to avoid finishing way out of contention?

Lessons are going to be drawn from this season's collapse, but they might be the wrong ones.

11. Oh, they'll almost certainly be the wrong ones. I think we have a pretty read now on how Colletti thinks, and while we can't predict which washed-up mediocrities he'll rotate in next year, we can be sure there'll be a passel of 'em.

Er, that should be "pretty good read." The read itself is anything but pretty. Darn adverbs!

3 The very mention of Acta's name got DePodesta fired!

Because I don't follow the Nats as closely as some of you, how does Acta relate to Bowden, who has never struck me as anything but Extremely Old School.

I'm not sure I agree about Francona. The Red Sox are just loaded. Perhaps Francona gets reflected glory from having Kevin Youkilis.

Scioscia is a great manager, but he's more of a "heart and soul" type, I think.

Dodger fans are going to be viewing Edwin Jackson the same way Mets fans now view Scott Kazmir.

14 The thing about Scioscia is, he knows exactly what type of team he has, and manages to their strengths. He doesn't have a lot of power on the team, so he stresses aggressive baserunning... but has the numbers available, so that instead of just blind running, he's using percentages to his advantage, which is certainly a "new school"-ish approach. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I remember an article about the Angels' first-to-third-on-a-single base-running where Scioscia pointed out that although it's considered a risk, the Angels had only been thrown out 3 times in 51 attempts, since they scouted opposing outfielders' arms and trained baserunners how to know when to take the chance.

I like Grady a lot as a person, but he doesn't take full advantage of the numbers game. Colletti is a mystery. I don't necessarily mind having Proven Veterans on the team, but I'd prefer that they're actually still solid players. Over the last month, Ned's seemed very reactive instead of pro-active... which isn't exactly how you'd want your GM to act.

NedCo can't be so dumb as to think that "lack of veteran leadership" is the reason for the 1st to 3rd collapse. It is quite obvious to anyone that the collapse was due to lack of solid pitching, or more importantly, 2/5th of the rotation going down.

The starting lineup is fine, and the fact is, most of the guys we want are in fact in the lineup. That they're not in all the time, well that's on Grady. I figure, maybe blindly hope, that NedCo puts the emphasis on getting pitching help next season, not hitting so much (unless he finds a way to get A-Rod [Furcal at 2nd, LaRoche at 3rd, A-Rod at Short])

17

By "starting lineup" I meant, the everyday players. Again, the lineups themselves are more on Grady, we have the position players to get the job done if they'd just get used right.

1. Maddon in 08 would be nice but what about Schumacher down in Jax? He's done a great job with our AA team AND knows our current players like Kemp, Brox, Martin, Loney, etc very well.

Also, who do you propose we replace Colletti with?

My Vote.....Jon Weisman in 08!!

Well, the lineup's on Grady, but to some degree on Ned as well -- they simply have to be on the same page. On the Dodger post-game show several days ago, it was reiterated how tremendously loyal Grady is to his veterans. This is a positive if we have productive veterans, but it's a big negative if there's a better young alternative. So from Ned's perspective, either he's happy with Grady playing a bunch of old vets instead of young talented players (who will make mistakes), or he needs to take those veterans away.

I live in Arizona and watch most of the Dodger games on Extra Innings. I hear the radio complaints etc but haven't been experiencing them, until the last few days.

Bishop gets a louder and clearer Dodger radio broadcast better than LA does.

Monday seems to provide a pleasant broadcast and is easy to listen to but I now realize that listening to him was like relaxing with some ballgame being heard in the background. I wasn't sure who was up to bat when something exciting happened. I turned the game off rather than try to find the clearest station in LA and wonder who it was that hit the ball when I mentally tuned into the broadcast.

It seems clear that if McCourt is unhappy with Ned he is going to hide it because the PR people are telling him that he can't make another change so soon.

Bridging the time when the younger players are ready to play full time through October with older vets appears to be a bridge that is crumbling with age.

Just to reiterate...i would be ecstatic if Jon Weisman got at least his name mentioned for an interview with the Dodgers, though im sure it would never happen, it would be nice to see baseball management realize that us "armchair" GM's aren't exactly retarded when it comes to the game. I think Jon would have trouble making the player contracts though lol.

I met an oldtimer who knew Fred Claire and he said Fred never talked about steroids but his wife did all the time.

23. Why would his wife talk about Steroids? For our players or just in general? lol

Beane talks to Blez at Athletics Nation a couple of times a year. I don't see why Ned Colletti wouldn't be willing to do the same thing. Or at least one interview.

In Chicago, old friend (?) J.D. Drew hits his seventh homer of the year.

25. Probably because not many of us agree with his moves and he would get blasted here. Could you imagine the questions he would be faced to answer at a forum such as ours where Jon picks the questions rather than a mediator at Dodgers.com that picks some of the easier ones to answer?

This is a really interesting topic. The guys at raysbb.com and most rays fans i've come across arent fans of Maddon at all. There's actually a good portion that wants him fired. I've watched my fair share of Rays games because of Edwin, and it seems like Joe doesn't exactly practice what he preaches. He makes some questionable decisions, especially with his bullpen, which has really drawn the ire of the rays fan base.

They obviously took the right approach with Edwin, but i'm not sure Maddon is that great of a managerial choice.

27 I don't think submitting questions to be answered is an ambush. Or a sit-down interview. And it's not like the Philosopher King is some amateurish goober. He's written a thing or two in a publication or two.

If having to explain your philosophy and defend decisions is too big a game for Ned Colletti, we're in a lot of trouble.

Hey Humma, is the Out Watch dead?

25 - I've never asked.

The OutWatch is not dead. The OutWatch is in hibernation. It's been very, very busy at work (in fact, I'm working now) and at home (readying the place for the arrival of Spawn of Kavula).

Doesn't leave much time for Watching Outs, but I'll try to catch up soon.

I actually think Colletti wouldn't be so averse to the prospect of talking here. I think his "candor" would allow him to relish it. I somehow suspect that if such a thing were on the table, it's McCourt who'd oppose it. He seems far more concerned with the upkeep of the image.

I really don't think that Colletti's unteachable. The problem (I suspect with both him and McCourt) is absence of vision, as suggested in the last thread. Y'know..."play the kids...so long as they don't actually struggle." The moment they do (or even, the moment management begins to fear they will), it's back to throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. It's the extension of this principle that makes me fear what DzzrtRatt suggests above: lessons will be drawn from all this, but alas not the right ones.

I doubt we're ever going to look at Edwin Jackson the way Mets fans do at Scott Kazmir. At the same time, mightn't we have been better off letting him develop than trotting out Bret Tomko in the first place? That's the fortitude current ownership lacks: a willingness to face the roasting they'd take from the hoi polloi for a year or two while developing a truly solid foundation.

31 Do you plan on asking in the offseason?

34 - Haven't thought about it. I don't know.

33

The point that is made in your post goes to heart of the problem that the Dodgers have had this year. When it was clear that both Tomko and Hendy were struggling early on has starters, it was only a matter of time when some of the other problems the Dodgers had were going to come home to roost. If you bring up Hull for a longer time or even bring Meleon up, by giving them a shot for a longer time at the Major League level, I think we might have been better off.
Ned like his mentor Sabean do not believe in allowing youngsters to play through some errors at the major league level!

ESPN takes on the Dodgers and their plight:

http://tinyurl.com/26odds

"I think they're a .500 club," a National League scout said. "They made their run when the young guys came up, but the kids have kind of plateaued and the old guys are near the end of their careers. They'll have to get by on starting pitching, and the starting pitching isn't that good."

If Colletti were able to learn from his mistakes, how the heck can you explain the Betemit for Proctor or Shea Hillenbrand decisions? The first should have been nixed by learning from Baez and Carter (don't give up value for middle relief), leaving aside Colletti's obvious undervaluation of Betemit.

And Pierre (no power, no patience, nothing but singles and mediocre defense) should have ruled out giving any playing time to the likes of Hillenbrand.

He is not a mystery anymore. He's a old-school guy with antiquated ideas of what constitutes good performance, and he has scoffed publicly at the idea of learning about new metrics.

That he hasn't traded away the crown jewels is only, I think because every "school" sees how good those guys are. Scouting and stats agree.

32 When is Spawn of Kavula due to arrive?

And I'm sorry if this offends; I don't mean it to, but that particular phrase (SofK) is straight out of bad space opera. ;)

Geren gets it too.

I remember when I was saying I still rather have Edwin than Hendrickson and Tomko earlier in the year when he was doing badly and most people basically thought I was crazy.

I remember when I was saying I still rather have Edwin than Hendrickson and Tomko earlier in the year when he was doing badly and most people basically thought I was crazy

I don't remember most people thinking you were crazy. I thought the general consensus around here was that 23-year olds who throw 99 MPH don't grow on trees, and that he was hardly washed up.

I sometimes find myself wondering if Grady Little might "get it" were he to be unchained from the nincompoop in the front office. He was, after all, the first managerial choice of the SABR regime in Boston.

38 Hillenbrand was only a reaction LaRoche going down. If Andy stayed healthy, he'd be playing every day, but unfortunately that didn't pan out. Who would you prefer playing third? Ramon Martinez? Olmedo? Marshall McDougall?

41
Not earlier, most had said he was never going to make it and those who thought he would were leaving in past dreams.

*living

I didn't like the Jackson trade then and I still don't. However, it's worth noting that had we kept him, being out of options, he likely would have spent the first two-thirds of the year stinking up the major league bullpen to the tune of a 7.00 ERA.

Triple-A call-up ended 13-year wait for Lindsey

>> The 6-foot-2-inch, 230-pounder is batting .337 with 19 homers and 75 RBIs in 68 games with Las Vegas, and the soft-spoken slugger is on the Dodgers' radar.

"He's got a chance," Los Angeles general manager Ned Colletti said. "He's obviously bucking the odds at this stage, at 30 years old, but he's probably got a better chance today than he's ever had in his whole career. <<

## 51s third baseman Andy LaRoche was activated from the disabled list, and catcher Octavio Martinez was placed on the DL. ##

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/9380661.html

After the Tracey/Depo fiasco Frank isn't going to fire Ned anytime soon. What Frank should do is Ned in place and look past him to Kim Ng. (Now this assumes Kim was not on board with all Ned's veteran purchases). This way Frank saves face, Ned saves face and hopefully the team improves. After a year or two, Ned will resign and Kim can take over.

43 We are about to find out how much truth that comment holds. Now that LaRoche is back playing again, how long until he is starting in LA over Hillenbrand?

So, whither my question in 4 ?

47 It's hard not to root a little for Lindsey.

43 Absolutely true. Of course, most of us would add the, "But if they hadn't traded Betemit..." clause to that thought. But it's true. I actually miss Nomar at this point. And LaRoche, I guess we'll see him in a week if he doesn't hurt himself.

I feel like one of the problems for the Dodgers this year is they've either learned things too late (Brett Tomko) or not at all (Hernandez, etc). And losing basically half their main starting pitching rotation for the year didn't help.

49. that date would be Sept 2nd when he starts over Shea and then platoons with him and Nomar the rest of the year even if we are out of the playoff race.

Yeah, the sad thing is, McCourt has now probably learned his lesson about sacking a GM after only a successful first season and a disastrous second.

43. Who would you prefer playing third? Ramon Martinez? Olmedo? Marshall McDougall?

Uh, Betemit

Does anyone know whether this an historically old Dodgers team or have the kids offset the 39+ somethings?

Who on our pitching staff do you think can drink the most?

Penny
Lowe
Wells
Beimel
Broxton

54 Yeah, kids definitely have offset the thirtysomethings so it's not a historically old Dodger team. It is older than average, though. According to Baseball-Reference the oldest Dodger teams of all time were 1926, 1928, 2001, and 2002

53 Oh snap I have been pwned. I try to block that whole trade out of my memory.

55 Well, the middle three are famous drinkers. I haven't seen anything that says Broxton drinks a lot-- are you just going by his physique?

55 If you're talking root beer floats, then definitely Broxton.

I just realized that Florida just picked up Kim. Essentially Arizona is now paying for Kim while Florida is paying a prorated portion of the minimum, and all Florida had to do was let him pitch for another team for 2 weeks. Interesting strategy, if you can call it that.

55

1. Wells - well documented drinking skills, huge gut can absorb all kinds of booze
2. Lowe - experience matters
3. Beimel - allegedly doesn't drink anymore, but I would give this guy dark horse status. Doesnt seem too big but has that crazy look in his eye
4. Penny - is a big guy but he doesn't look like a huge boozer to me
5. Broxton - seems almost too quiet to be the drinking type

Acta is very open to modern stats and to making decisions based on what analysis of past outcomes makes sense - eg he has referred tpo runexpectancies to assess when bunting makes sense.

Hanrahan had a 40 pitch second inning w/4 walks. Ouch - only 2 runs b/c Ryan Zimmerman caught a foul falling into the stands.

Austin Kearns just made a tough catch xrashing into the wall and got a standing O from the Rockies fans.

55 Are you talking about alcohol or milk?

I figured a man that size can put back a few beers.

Philip's latest Catfish Stew post is pretty funny. Particularly the Nick Swisher line.

He's walked dessens twice.

I like Sam's Nats updates. What I'm wondering is, do the folks at Capital Punishment get Dodger updates too?

After fearing a franchise-altering disaster move at the deadline (Blanton, Garland), instead I feel like the gradually boiled frog. Each incremental move could be explained in the moment. Then you look up one day and Loney is losing AB's to Ramon Martinez and Mark Sweeney, and 30% of the active roster is comprised of deadweight.

The list of names that could come back and bite us grows: Kyle Blair, Denker, Betemit, Jackson, Guzman as does the list of names that have no role on the 2008-2009 Dodgers whatsoever: Wells, Hernandez, Hillenbrand, Sweeney, Martinez, Saenz. I'll speak for myself in saying 2005 was easier to stomach than 2007.

That probably should have been Capitol with an O.

Really good stuff Jon thanks for the link.

LaRoche is back on the bench today. I hope there's nothing to read into that.

A day game in Vegas in August sounds like fun. Luckily for all concerned it's only 96 today.

Sam, Not sure if you saw my thank you in yesterdays' thread. The Nats write up was great. I'll be sure to let you know what I find out.

Little League update, Georgia has tied up Japan 2-2 in the 2nd inning.

On Rosenthal´s article: "... not to mention the clubhouse frustration with manager Grady Little."

Brett Myers got into an amusing confrontation with a reporter today.

"When Myers was asked about the two home runs, he said they were really 'just pop ups.'

A reporter from the Philadelphia Inquirer questioned whether Myers really thought they were pop ups, and Myers got angry.

'You're not even a beat reporter, you're a fill-in, you don't know anything about baseball,' said Myers, who then called the reporter 'retarded.'

The Inquirer reporter asked if Myers could spell retarded, and Myers stood up. Burrell then restrained Myers, and Myers refused to speak any further."

Good comeback by the reporter.

76

the visual of that whole ordeal gives me the giggles.

75
The fact that he does not elaborate on that statement makes me question it.

If you can, please tell Ned about Value over replacement player as a concept.

Replacement players an bee in AA, AAA or in the scrap heap..if you rely on 29-36 year old guys that you know what they CAN do and are available...they likely have no UPSIDE...how can you win a world series with replacement players...Tonko, Hend, Hill, Hernandez, Ramon...and tell Grady too!

PS I think even the better middle relievers offer little value over replacement.

I can spell it...
really...

cubs jump out in front 3-0

Jayson Werth went 5-5 today, against the Padres. The last Dodger to do that did it against the Padres, too. In a pretty special game.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN200609180.shtml

Since I have the floor...
Is it ever too early to double switch out the young Loney in the FIFTH inning for the quite average Sweeney, also LH? Are they trying to kill his confidence? Are we trying to "Choi" him?
We've lost Denker now because the switch- hitting Young, hitting .400 or .500, couldn't stay in the bigs thru August...we needed another average old ex-Giant? If we had a roster spot for Sweeney, why not for the hungry, young kid? To just pinch hit!
We haven't called up Meloan for ONE reason...service time...thats why we NEEDED Proctor...needed Hernandez...

This is all so Tracy-like...

now back to your regularly scheduled Dodger Thoughts...

The Japanese moms are chanting let's get on base.

Even they know what it takes to score in baseball.

Does anyone know the general consensus in Japan? Do they lean more towards SABR or old school?

I've decided to get on the Brewer Bandwagon, too. I'm still mostly a D'backs fan, but if the Brewers can take that playoff spot away from the Cubs, that'll be awesome.

D'backs up 5-3, now. On Chris Young's second home run of the day. His 28th on the year.

87 Don't count LaRussa out.

And how many HRs does our CF have? Oh yes, zero.

89 That's our problem. We need a Chris Young. Worked for the two teams above us.

91
And yet, amazingly, our CF has a