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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Enough Is Enough
2007-09-26 07:36
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Today, I read yet another column scapegoating one of the team's most valuable position players, Matt Kemp, for the Dodgers' fall into fourth place - and going on to suggest that he could be traded, maybe should be traded.

The player is being criticized for a bad attitude, even though he is surrounded by veterans with bad attitudes. Different kinds of bad attitudes, perhaps, but bad attitudes nevertheless.

The player is being critcized for speaking out in the press, even though he did so in response to veterans speaking out in the press.

The player is being criticized for on-field mistakes, even though veterans have repeatedly made the same on-field mistakes.

The player is being criticized for perhaps not being willing to learn, even though the veteran that started this whole thing has been one of the most irascible, stubborn people in baseball, whose baserunning in the past two seasons indicates that he hasn't learned nearly as much as he wants us to think.

Headline from inside today's Daily Irony: Sweeney hopes to stay on as a voice of experience

Yes, Mark Sweeney. The veteran who made the single dumbest baserunning mistake of the year.

I have had it with the utter stupidity that has come out of the Dodger clubhouse and local papers this past week.

Bill Plaschke writes that Kemp's "power and speed have been negated by silly at-bats and baserunning mistakes."

Negated?? Are you serious??

The silly at-bats have already been factored into his on-base percentage and slugging percentage, which currently stand at .364 and .509. Yes, those are the numbers of the irresponsible Kemp.

The baserunning mistakes? What have there been, five? Ten? Let's say the latter. Instead of 198 outs in 294 plate appearances, give Kemp 208 outs in 294 plate appearances. Wow, what a change.

Negated???

Is third-base coach Rich Donnelly going to be traded in response to the baserunning mistakes on his watch?

Mustering the resilience to read to the end of Plaschke's column, I found that the nuance of the suggestion is that Kemp be traded for a veteran in his prime that won't be worried about losing his playing time to Kemp and therefore won't be resistant to mentoring him. Brilliant idea - except the guy you're worried about mentoring won't be around anymore.

Here's an idea that apparently isn't good enough for the papers: Why not have the manager and coaches do the damn mentoring? Seriously, what else are they there for? If Grady Little and the coaching staff are too weak to do it, then bring in a drill seargent. Hell, bring in Lou Gossett, Jr. and have him go all Sgt. Foley on Kemp.

Apparently not. Apparently, I'm left to understand that the young brats in the Dodger clubhouse won't heed anyone currently in the Dodger organization, but will pay attention to some 28-year-old, $14 million-earning All-Star to be named later? Apparently, this isn't Plaschke's idea, it's the Dodgers' (though none of Plaschke's sources for it are named).

This is our plan for the future?

Look, I get that every player has his price. There are people out there better than Kemp, and if you can get one of them and keep him, that's great. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a fundamental misunderstanding of what has happened to the Dodgers this year.

Throw the babies out with the bathwater. That's the operating strategy that has been suggested over the past week. Amazing.

* * *

On Tuesday's pregame show, Rick Monday spent five minutes interviewing Rich Donnelly, with both agreeing that chemistry is overrated and winning takes care of it all.

Donnelly says he believes in "team math" over "team chemistry" - in other words, "the math of a three-run home run."

Today in the Times, Dylan Hernandez writes that according to Little, "results were responsible for the revelation of clubhouse tensions."

"I think every team has them," Little told Hernandez. "We had them last year. We made it to postseason. We had them this year. We didn't make it to postseason. You don't hear about a lot of things when you're able to win and you win through them. When you lose, as a result, then they start getting blown away."

The Dodgers know that tales of bad chemistry are the effect, not the cause, of the team's losing. So why are so many pretending otherwise?

* * *

More fun quotes: It's gotten so bad, this almost qualifies as comic relief. From Diamond Leung of the Press-Enterprise:

"The way (Russell Martin) plays, he's bound to be hurt sometime."

- Mike Lieberthal

* * *

Update: The following is from former Dodger Dave Stewart, now an agent:

The fact is there are veterans on (the Dodgers) who played adequate at best all season long. They're a year too late and on their way down. Penny's the only veteran starting pitcher the Dodgers could count on. Lowe has more losses than wins, Wolf and Schmidt got injured, and Hendrickson, and Tomko pitched poorly with ERAs of 5.26 and 5.80 respectively. Chad Billingsley on the other hand, who entered the league last season, has been their stopper since he's been in the rotation. Andre Ethier, who also started playing in the big leagues last year, has been a stabling point for them in the outfield. Another young guy, James Loney, has been nothing but good when they've played him. Relief pitcher, Jonathan Broxton, has only pitched 170 career innings so far, but has been very solid this year (80IP, 2.93ERA, 96K, 1.16WHIP). And, this may only be Russell Martin's second season in the majors, but he's already made an All-Star team (.299BA, 18HR, 85RBI, 85R, 21SB). If anything, the Dodgers have waited too long to play their young guys more.

Bottom line... I think the way Kent handled this whole situation is complete garbage. I wasn't in that clubhouse, but chances are he didn't say a damn thing all year long and waited until they got eliminated to criticize and cry like a baby. If you have concerns speak up. Don't wait until September to let your frustration come to a head. Furthermore, if a veteran player doesn't want to play a leadership role, that's obviously their choice. However, if you don't want to be a leader then you need to shut up.

* * *

Update 2: Check out our heroine, Dodger Thoughts reader Molly Knight of ESPN.com, guesting at the Kamenetzky brothers' Blue Notes.

Comments (575)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-09-26 07:46:48
1.   Bob Timmermann
Jon is so mad, he's going to watch "Private Practice" tonight instead of the Dodgers. And rave about the witty dialog.
2007-09-26 07:48:39
2.   Sam DC
I am amazed you found the time to write this and appreciative that you did. Well emoted, and well said.

What inanity.

2007-09-26 07:49:43
3.   D4P
Jon is so mad, he's violating Rule 10 because of Rule 1.
2007-09-26 07:50:54
4.   Vishal
the "negated" quote really pissed me off too.
2007-09-26 07:52:45
5.   Sam DC
Here -- this is more fun: http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023190.php
2007-09-26 07:52:54
6.   LAT
Throw the babies out with the bathwater. That's the operating strategy that has been suggested over the past week

This has been the hallmark of the McCourt era. He is always looking for a quick fix. First it was go with Depo and the stats. When that was deemed a failure Depo was uncermoniously terminated. Change directions. Go with youth and character. When that doesn't work get rid of the kids and go with vets. Pretty soon Frank's going to run out of babies and bathwater.

2007-09-26 07:53:20
7.   D4P
Anyone remember the SNL skit (from the late 80s?) where the catch phrase was "I'm mad as hell!"? I can't remember the gist, but it seems like Danny DeVito was involved. That not withstanding, I seem to remember it being pretty funny.
2007-09-26 07:57:05
8.   Marty
I feel the same way as Jon. But, it's making me tired. If the Dodgers trade away their future, I may just give up baseball for a few years as I pretty much did in the 90s. Then again, I'm not the fan they care about. I rarely go to games. I don't buy their merchandise.
2007-09-26 07:58:36
9.   D4P
may just give up baseball for a few years as I pretty much did in the 90s. Then again, I'm not the fan they care about. I rarely go to games. I don't buy their merchandise.

Mega Dittos.

2007-09-26 07:59:13
10.   MollyKnight
I want to know who these "insiders" are. Since it's not Ned or Frank McCourt, my guess is Tony Jackson. Or Jeff Kent.

This is one of the more irresponsible columns I've ever seen. I don't think he wants to run into me in a dark hallway any time soon.

2007-09-26 08:00:16
11.   Wilbert Robinson
I was about to write nearly the exact same thing.
2007-09-26 08:00:18
12.   Vishal
i also can't stand the absolute deference that management and the press treat the veterans with. nobody seems to be able to criticize them or correctly lay the blame for this crappy season at their feet.

it's really odd that in our society, which for the most part values youth and productiveness over age and experience, where everyone is trying to look and seem younger, where there is such a "generation gap" because old people are thought to be out of touch, that in baseball there is still this culture of deference.

2007-09-26 08:00:39
13.   Wilbert Robinson
11 as 8
2007-09-26 08:03:43
14.   D4P
12
Yep. All of a sudden, Jeff Kent and Derek Lowe are role models.
2007-09-26 08:04:57
15.   Gen3Blue
Great red piece, and about time in my opinion.

Also watching last night I don't think we need to worry about hitting for the next few years, But we better do something about the pitching. All this stupid prattle aside, our pitching collapse took us out of the race.

2007-09-26 08:07:00
16.   old dodger fan
This is a nightmare except it is still there when I wake up. Matt Kemp is the most exciting and talented player I have seen in a Dodger uniform in a long time. He is truly a pleasure to watch. The idea of Loney, Kemp and Martin along with some of our young pitchers makes me love being a Dodger fan despite the recent collapse. If we keep the likes of Sweeney and trade Kemp we are destined for 70 - 75 wins and a lot of ire from this old Dodger fan.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DON'T DO IT.

2007-09-26 08:07:31
17.   ToyCannon
Here is a list of players aged 23-28 who have complied an OPS+ > 115 over the last 3 years.

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/xAQr

I'm going to be closing the poll at true blue today. At this point Orel leads by the slimmest of margins. Grady beat out Kevin Kennedy which says something for our voters. On the other hand Dusty Baker got some votes.

http://www.truebluela.com/poll_vote/1190302786_eQHzQYrZ

2007-09-26 08:07:37
18.   Dodger Dan
Bill Plaschke is a miserable person who is determined to inflict his misery on everyone else--indeed, it loves company. He already has the scalp of a Dodger GM to prove his own genius and power, so getting Kemp's would merely cement his reputation as Dodger guru and kingmaker. He doesn't care about the Dodgers' success--it is his own that drives him.
2007-09-26 08:11:00
19.   Sushirabbit
I thought it was eight is enough? Pierre or Kent should not have started last night.

I've held my tongue alot lately, as it seems alot of this is generated on stupid columns that may or may not be based on reality. Sort of like second guessing off-season rumors.

Still, Pierre is worse than Kemp and way more expensive. Also, if all of this has any basis in reality, why not shut up, and let managment get some value out of Kemp for a change. I like Kemp, I think it's great he's seen as a "5 tool" guy, but really it's Loney that looks like the superstar to me (besides Martin). Kemp looks bad in the field to me and uncomfortable at the plate (though he HAS gotten better at laying off the offspeed down and away).

There's a pile of deadwood on the bonfire. But there's a few babes in the bathwater, too. If Kemp can be used to get someone legit I would definitely consider it, but I sure don't trust Coletti or McCourt to have the same definition of legit (or value) as I do.

2007-09-26 08:14:09
20.   Bumsrap
When a team has a great core of young players and they are able to come up more or less together to the majors, already feel like a team, already feel like they are going to win together, then get out of the way, encourage it, let it grow.

Good executives know when to get out of the way and merely remove the obstacles. What are the obstacles? Gonzo and Kent for sure and Nomar if he doesn't accept that he is now playing only as good as a backup.

2007-09-26 08:14:10
21.   Dodger Dan
This year's Dodger team reminds me most of the 1972 version, when Garvey/Cey/Russell/Ferguson/Yeager/et al came up and elbowed unproductive veterans aside. Two years later they were in the World Serious.

One point is worth noting: Tommy Lasorda came with them. He served as their minor league mentor and was present to ease their big league transition, even as they broke in under curmudgeonly Walter Alston. Isn't there a minor league manager or coach who knows our present babies and can come be their shepherd, advising them and advocating for them against surly vets and power-mad writers?

2007-09-26 08:14:42
22.   Marty
One of the most interesting lines in the column is "I had requested an interview with Frank McCourt, who has made a commitment to transparency and whom I summon only when absolutely necessary."

He summons Frank?

2007-09-26 08:16:25
23.   Sushirabbit
12,14 Yeah, ya know one thing that would be nice is to have a little heat directed at Kent. Because as much as I value the bat, combine the bad clubhouse attitude with statuesque defense and poor baserunning (was he sent last night or did he do that on his own?) and I'd rather he feel compelled to retire. I'd at least make it clear that his playing time could be halved.
2007-09-26 08:16:30
24.   Telemachos
Bravo, Jon. Great post. Hopefully someone from the Dodger management reads it (yeah, I know how likely that is).

It's funny... when I first moved to LA I was so excited that I was finally going to get a lot of Dodger coverage on the radio and in the papers, instead of all the Giants/A's press I got up north. Never would I have suspected that the LA press was largely a bunch of rancid whiny knife-stabbers who couldn't care less about balanced coverage.

2007-09-26 08:17:14
25.   MC Safety
Bill Plaschke gets about as much time of day from me as a rollie pollie. Sheesh talk about reckless abandon. What happened to mainstream sports journalism in LA?
2007-09-26 08:18:26
26.   Ben P
Not to defend Plaschke or the theoretical "trade Kemp" plan, but let's say for the sake of argument that Kemp really is a bad clubhouse presence, that there are things we don't even know about, that he fights with his manager, argues with his GM, doesn't practice hard, etc.

Even if that's true, and the Dodgers therefore really want to trade him, why would you leak that story?? "This kid's a clubhouse cancer. Who wants him?" It makes no sense. Either keep him, warts and all, or shut up and trade him. But for the love of God, don't reduce his value by suggesting he's a big problem, and THEN try to trade him. Aaargh.

2007-09-26 08:18:40
27.   ToyCannon
I like this one better. By runs created with the ages increased from 20 - 31 from 2005 - 2007.
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/MMA7
2007-09-26 08:19:54
28.   D4P
Even if that's true, and the Dodgers therefore really want to trade him, why would you leak that story?? "This kid's a clubhouse cancer. Who wants him?" It makes no sense. Either keep him, warts and all, or shut up and trade him. But for the love of God, don't reduce his value by suggesting he's a big problem, and THEN try to trade him. Aaargh

Once Colletti sours on a guy, he doesn't seem to care about trade value. He just wants to get rid of him.

2007-09-26 08:20:53
29.   Daniel Zappala
There's nothing wrong with this team that couldn't be fixed by axing the LA Times sports section.
2007-09-26 08:27:26
30.   Humma Kavula
Thank you, Jon, for being the big stick.
2007-09-26 08:33:53
31.   ImprobableImpossible
Hey Jon,
Any chance we lift Rule 1 for one thread? I definitely feel like I need it.

I'm done reading anything by Plaschke. I normally listen to Simers on the radio as I get ready for work -- no longer. And if Ned trades Matt Kemp, I'm done with the Dodgers, too.

2007-09-26 08:34:22
32.   LogikReader
I don't know how big the Daily News is, but the fact is there isn't enough competition in the L.A. newspaper market. These are the sorts of things I'd just laugh off, but I think Jon's anger, and I've never seen you get like this before, in fact I'm kind of scared of you right now; anyway:

Here's the Pattern of Plaschke:

-- Sours on Gary Sheffield, Sheff gets traded
-- Sours on DePo, DePo gets fired
-- Sours on Kemp

-- Sours on Beimel, Beimel stays and defies the Plaschke.

I swear to you, why pick on Kemp? I really hope the management isn't that dumb. I trust they won't be...

2007-09-26 08:35:52
33.   LogikReader
I was only kidding about the anger bit. I'm pretty miffed myself.
2007-09-26 08:37:24
34.   LAT
Funny how far the JP deal reverberates. If last year Lofton is re-signed to a one yr deal we are not even having this conversation becasue the Dodgers need three outfielders in '08. But with JP playing CF everyday as though its a birthright Kemp becomes expendable. At least in Coletti's mind.
2007-09-26 08:38:29
35.   Howard Fox
7 it's from the movie "Network"
2007-09-26 08:38:45
36.   LAT
Beimel was spared becuase of contrition. He publically fell on his sword. The others did not>
2007-09-26 08:39:20
37.   D4P
As it stands right now, I think LaRoche is much more likely to be traded than Kemp.
2007-09-26 08:40:41
38.   LogikReader
Well it would be bad journalism to not read and analyze Plaschke's latest blather, here I go...
2007-09-26 08:40:51
39.   Humma Kavula
By the way, responding to D4P from the last thread...

I don't want to get too much into this, because my endorsement of Crawford is tepid, but his VORP for this year is 46th in all of baseball at 37.8. Pierre's VORP is 15.9.

Also he's 25 years old this year. And he made $4 million this year and makes $5.25 million next year.

So you might be right to say that he's Juan Pierre with middling power, but that makes him a nice player.

He's not the second coming -- and I'll repeat that I am not in any way advocating trading Matt Kemp for him -- but Crawford is a nice player and young and cheap. All I'm saying is if he were on my team, I'd be a fan.

2007-09-26 08:41:14
40.   Chris H
Great work Jon. The only thing that could make it better was if I was reading it in the MSM. Maybe an article along these lines could get into SI?
2007-09-26 08:41:16
41.   D4P
Question: Does Ned have a history of being manipulated by Plaschke/The Media? Part of me thinks that a "PR Guy" wouldn't allow himself to be so easily manipulated. Part of me thinks Ned would stand up to hacks like Plaschke.

Is part of me wrong?

2007-09-26 08:41:21
42.   Howard Fox
is Kemp the second coming...maybe...

is Kemp the problem...doubt it (his family is really nice and that is usually an indicator), but we aren't there, so who knows...

I see a trade happening, and us getting the short stick...I expect nothing better from Coletti...

it's apparent to me that Plaschke is Coletti's voice...

2007-09-26 08:43:16
43.   Frip
2 "Well emoted" ? Never heard that one before. Next time my girlfriend freaks out on me that's gonna be my first response, like a sophisticated theatre critic, "Well emoted Lara...well emoted."
2007-09-26 08:43:38
44.   Penarol1916
I'm too depressed about this kind of stuff to be angry, or maybe I'm just tired and this is just too predictable. This does remind a bit of a thread a couple of years ago on John Sickels site where someone mentioned that they preferred Hunter Pence over Matt Kemp because of attitude problems and past troubles. They said something about getting into trouble with Sheldon Williams, the former Dukie.
2007-09-26 08:44:06
45.   Humma Kavula
43 That is likely to get you slapped.
2007-09-26 08:44:23
46.   Reddog
Look, I urge everyone here to write a letter, snail mail, and send it to Mr. Frank McCourt, Dodger Stadium. Just take 20 minutes and do it, and mail it. Believe me, he reads a letter from a fan when he gets one. In business, the rule of thumb is that one letter probably represents the thoughts of ten thousand people - as so few will go to the trouble to write and send a letter.

My letter to him will be urging him to fire Colletti and Little, hire Logan White as GM, keep all the young players and stop signing over-the-hill vets. Try and sign A-Rod.

Just do it, please guys. Believe me, there is nothing more important you could do to influence the future direction of the Dodgers. Thanks.

2007-09-26 08:44:36
47.   Howard Fox
43 I see a long and successful relationship there...emoted??...her response will be wtf does that mean....
2007-09-26 08:45:50
48.   underdog
35 I think the SNL sketch referenced the famous Network scene, or at least ripped it off. No one beats Peter Finch's Howard Beale for ranting, though.

I don't think I've ever seen Jon go for the three question mark sombrero before!

This is all so ridiculous, I wish we didn't even have to comment on it, but unfortunately we know Dodgers' management pays more attention to the LA Times woefully bad journalism than Dodger Thoughts. Still, I'm optimistic they're waiting for this kind of stuff to blow over and are not planning on trading Matt Kemp because of murmurs and rumblings and b.s. from the Times.

2007-09-26 08:47:19
49.   Howard Fox
46 he might be more responsive to your letter is you limit your thoughts to "stay the course with the younguns"

what I have learned in business is make it count, hit on your main one or two points...if you hit him with a laundry list of matters, they tend to blur each other

2007-09-26 08:47:34
50.   underdog
I agree R-Dog, can't hurt to write a letter. At the very least plea the case of going young and staying that way. I think as fans, who pay money, if we write politely but adamantly, it can't hurt.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-09-26 08:48:52
51.   Andrew Shimmin
I always assume any unsourced rumor about potential Dodger moves comes from Lasorda. It makes me feel better.
2007-09-26 08:49:58
52.   LogikReader
Here's what I came up with:

"The Dodgers need a legitimate star, in the prime of his career, who can lead on and off the field."

Plaschke, use your unflappable pen power to lobby for A-Rod then. It seems all too obvious to me. Plus, it doesn't even require trading anybody.

"The Dodgers don't feel that giving up on Kemp means giving up on the youngsters."

First of all, what is anyone giving up on? A .364 On Base Percentage? A .504 slugging percentage? 10 HR and 40 RBI's in limited starts? A 125 OPS+?

Second, of course it means giving up on the youngsters. It sets a bad precedent, puts a damper on the morale of the team, etc etc.

No veteran is going to match the potential of what Kemp or Loney has now. These folks can get better. Anybody else you pick up this year, outside of maybe A-Rod, can only get worse and for more money.

Plaschke is way too concerned with the touchy feely aspects of players, and, the way I'm seeing it, it's like he's supporting the guys who support him back. That's not journalism, that's favoritism.

2007-09-26 08:50:11
53.   ryu
Jon, I believe you mean Diamond Leung of the Riverside P.E. (not Dylan Hernandez).
2007-09-26 08:52:41
54.   Doug N
Jon;
This is the post I was looking for.

I don't even know what to say, except that Simers can go to hell.

I'd also like to ask Kent, and I see him around town here in Texas once in a while, so I just might...I'd like to ask him where he gets off bad-mouthing the only consistently productive aspect of the team.

Isn't that what this boils down too? Two teams: one that is good and young, and one that sucks and is washed up.

Apologies for the long comment. With all the good that is happening with this team, I would hate to see it ruined by the likes of Kent, Gonzalez and the "un-named complaining veteran who is obviously self-righteous Nomar 'Gee Maybe I'll Get Another Home Run Someday' Garciaparra."

2007-09-26 08:55:34
55.   Chris H
So anyone else think that Plaschke's source for the article is Tommy Lasorda?
2007-09-26 08:58:11
56.   underdog
I don't know if there's any point in writing to bill.plaschke@latimes.com but maybe, or better yet a letter to the editor. Newspapers are basically cowards these days who worry about losing still more subscribers (so if you are still one even better) and it also helps to just counteract some of their printed stupidity with our own DT brand of smarts. So if you're in a letter writing mood, McCourt and the LA Times are both good targets.
2007-09-26 08:58:11
57.   Humma Kavula
By the way, when I was looking up Crawford's and Pierre's VORPs earlier, I saw this -- Mark Sweeney...

The Voice of Experience's VORP is -2.3.

2007-09-26 08:58:52
58.   max power
Jon's mad enough to break out the red font tag.

Watch out, world.

(Thanks for yet another good one, JW.)

2007-09-26 09:01:09
59.   underdog
The Dodgers have so much young talent both on the team this year and coming soon that with all the roster spot openings coming (Saenz, presumably Martinez, Gonzo, Hillenbrand, etc) they could essentially fill ALL those spots with young players like Delwyn Young, Abreu, Hu, and so on. And sure, bring in a veteran pinch hitter, I don't even care if it's Sweeney, since he can also back up first base. But most of those spots can go with CHEAP, better young players and problems are solved. They should focus on pitching depth and leave the rest of the team to the young players, and ship the aforementioned deadweight vets off on a rickety boat with Bill Plaschke to fend for themselves.

End of story.

2007-09-26 09:05:11
60.   CajunDodger
Great post Jon.

How can the Dodgers give up on someone like Kemp when they are so young? He is not Milton Bradley who allows emotions to affect the game. He screws up a lot on the bases, but isn't he just 22? Can't he learn the finer points of baserunning over the course of his potentially All Star career? Isn't that what Winter Ball and Spring Training is for...you know...INSTRUCTION BY THE COACHES!!!!!!!!!!

Fortunately, I do not think that Colletti will be swayed by the ravings of a media that just woke up to notice that the Dodgers missed the playoffs and then decided to "fix" them...you know what with all the contact they have with the players.

Ultimately I think that Ng, Colletti, and White will circle the wagons once the playoffs start and allow things to cool off a little.

2007-09-26 09:05:12
61.   Humma Kavula
I was already going to do this, but now I feel like it's a political act:

I'm going to the ballgame tonight, and I'm buying a Matt Kemp T-Shirt.

I'm going to tell the vendor why I'm buying a Kemp shirt and ask her to pass on my message to management.

2007-09-26 09:05:36
62.   Robert Daeley
From FoxSports.com rumors:

"Twins left-hander Johan Santana may end up with the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2008. According to sources close to the team, Los Angeles is considering an offer that would send lefty pitching prospect Clayton Kershaw and young outfielder Matt Kemp to Minnesota. Kemp would replace Torii Hunter in centerfield. Kershaw, who might be the top prospect in all of baseball, would step into the rotation for Santana. -- FoxSports.com"

2007-09-26 09:06:20
63.   Jon Weisman
53 - Thanks.
2007-09-26 09:06:22
64.   D4P
I start to wonder how much of this "The Kids are immature jerks" is self-fulfilling. All year long, we heard nothing about immaturity or jerkiness. Then, all of a sudden, the media starts playing this up, needling and pushing the kids, trying to get them to respond. And when they do respond? Well, then the media says "Look! I told you they were immature jerks!"
2007-09-26 09:07:16
65.   LogikReader
I just want to know WHY? Why are the LA Times columnists in the corner of the sagging, overpriced veterans? Why do we not have columns about how lousy Nomar has been all year?

For goodness sake, WHY do these folks insist on the "win now" attitude? I'd love to see what their columns were like just before Piazza got traded.

Incidentally, it's been a while since I've read the paper in full: what happened to J.A. Andande?

2007-09-26 09:07:59
66.   D4P
62
Kemp would replace Torii Hunter in centerfield

Joke's on them: Kemp Can't Play Centerfield™...!

2007-09-26 09:08:15
67.   Humma Kavula
65 He took the buyout.
2007-09-26 09:10:21
68.   underdog
Ever read the blog "Mike Scioscia's Tragic Illness"? Here's his post on Plaschke and co.:
http://tinyurl.com/2ev4mo
2007-09-26 09:10:43
69.   Ben P
Any chance that this is all just a warning shot to Kemp? As in, "Improve your attitude or we'll trade you." Of course, that theory assumes that the whole front office is fiendishly disciplined and well-coordinated, rather than a sniping mess, but you never know...
2007-09-26 09:11:11
70.   underdog
I hope FoxSports rumor is as wrong as they usually are.
2007-09-26 09:11:47
71.   Eric Enders
They say never post when you're angry, but it seems to work for Jon. Great job.
2007-09-26 09:12:18
72.   eusmus
64 Ugh. Santana is a free agent in 2009, right? Why trade two potentially franchise players for a single year?
2007-09-26 09:12:22
73.   Sam DC
And that would be a trade for one year of Santana right, with an opportunity to sign him as a FA after that?
2007-09-26 09:12:41
74.   WillieD
From the last thread, "255 - Sporky? Honestly, I don't know. I chose it because 'squishy' was taken." Funny... Everytime I see 'Sporky', I think "Sparky" only not, or maybe Toad the Wet Sprocket, only not. Sporky!
2007-09-26 09:13:02
75.   jasonungar07
I just wish Coletti was fired. It all starts with Mr. PR machine/used car salesman who is working extra hard this year. He has created a perfect excuse for his failure. He has also created a perfect excuse for not sticking with the kids or if he does the expectations are that they arent good enough to win cause you know that takes time (yet AZ and Colorado are winning.)

So he has himself well covered.

Loney alone instead of Nomar probably get us into the playoffs, let alone all the other bone head moves.

2007-09-26 09:13:05
76.   CajunDodger
One last thing, the best thing all of us can do is to stop reading columns and listening to the radio shows where self-important journalists (and their daughters who never go to games) write and talk just so that they can be the topics of conversation.

Every link to their opinion page is a message to their editors that people are reading and that their voice sells ad space.

2007-09-26 09:13:56
77.   D4P
Why trade two potentially franchise players for a single year?

Didn't Ned say he wouldn't trade the Kids for a chance to win one year...?

2007-09-26 09:14:06
78.   underdog
Dear Frank and Ned,
Trade Matt Kemp and we'll fill your house from floor to ceiling with raw uncooked Dodger Dogs.

Sincerely,
Fans

2007-09-26 09:14:34
79.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
Jon, we're right with you on Sons of Steve Garvey. I feel like the LA Times has become the Oklahoman. Grow up, for pete's sake, and get a new harangue.
2007-09-26 09:16:18
80.   Humma Kavula
72 /73 The answer is that the Dodgers would have a whole year with Santana to themselves to sign him to a contract extension.

If such an extension is possible, and if the Dodgers feel that getting Santana as a free agent in '09 is not possible, trading for him is less insane.

I don't know if an extension is possible, though... and even if it is possible, trading Kemp and Kershaw for that right is too high a price without a guarantee.

2007-09-26 09:16:25
81.   CajunDodger
65
You can catch him on ESPN.com.
2007-09-26 09:19:38
82.   jasonungar07
And seriously if Coletti was McCourts best hire and that's not press/lip service then I have to question my loyalty to this team. It pains me, but really this article today made my heart sink. It makes me to angry and it's just basbeaball. The dodgers don't care about me. Why should I care so much? Yet I do. I am beyond frustrated. The most exciting player I have seen in years, at such and early stage in his career being slammed in the press? Our GM should be protecting these kids, but he can care less.

I just know we will never win with Coletti. I know it in my heart and nothing will change my mind. So to quote Larry David.."I am at the thrones of a moral dilema"

2007-09-26 09:19:41
83.   scareduck
Plaschke is the lowest kind of jackass. He really needs to be fired.
2007-09-26 09:21:04
84.   Sam DC
I do think it would be extremely easy for a GM to convince himself that he can sell that deal to the public and the media as a huge coup.

It's Johan Santana!

2007-09-26 09:21:34
85.   Bumsrap
I agree, Matt Kemp is too young, too inexperienced, too undeveloped to be the clean up hitter right now. He needs a couple more years to work his way up the batting order. Having Kent as a clean up hitter and Gonzo at the #5 hitter put too much need for run production on a rookie like Kemp. Kent had a good year offensively for a second baseman but not for a clean up hitter.
2007-09-26 09:22:40
86.   CajunDodger
80
I am still trying to wrap my head around that one, but I can see it two ways:

1. Isn't Kershaw and Kemp and maybe LaRoche what it would take to get Miggy Cabrera? If that is the case, then go for the hitter and not the pitcher with mileage (Can we please learn from the Schmidt signing?)

2. If we can get Santana for a year then sign him to an extension, how much fun would it be to have a 1-2-3 of Santana, Penny, and Bills? That could potentially be what we need for a WS...

2007-09-26 09:22:59
87.   Andrew Shimmin
Two interesting things on Santana's MLB4U page. His agent is Peter Greenberg, about whom I know nothing, except that his name isn't spelled B-O-R-A-S. Also, Buster Olney is quoted as saying that the Twins are considering moving him, but are also, "expected to offer him a five-year contract extension offer this winter. Santana is believe to be seeking six to seven years, possibly at $18-20M annually."

http://mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=942

2007-09-26 09:24:20
88.   be2ween
Can we trade Plaschke and Simers to San Francisco for Ray Ratto?
2007-09-26 09:24:25
89.   Humma Kavula
How did the Expos/Red Sox Pedro Martinez deal work? Did the Red Sox put together the trade, inform the Commish, and then get a certain amount of time to work out the extension? Or was the extension the result of a negotiation to get Martinez to waive a no-trade clause or something?

Point being, if they put together a trade but want to try to work out a long-term deal with Santana first, is that possible under the rules in place?

2007-09-26 09:25:07
90.   Howard Fox
86 I can't see hanging my hat on a 5 inning pitcher (Penny) as a cornerstone of a pitching staff...
2007-09-26 09:25:35
91.   Ken Noe
"The Dodgers also need to fashion a clubhouse that includes more 27- to 31-year-old position players, the sort who could help the kids learn without the petty jealousies and personal agendas that sometimes affect older players.

Because the farm system was so empty in the late 1990s, the Dodgers haven't grown those types of players themselves. They signed two of those types of players, Rafael Furcal and Juan Pierre, but neither has a voice that can carry the entire clubhouse."

I don't know what scares me more, the notion that they would trade Kemp for a new kind of "chemistry," or that Pierre is being offered as the sort of player LA needs to get more of.

2007-09-26 09:26:17
92.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
88 maybe we can get Scott Ostler back too.
2007-09-26 09:28:03
93.   CajunDodger
89
I remember when we dealt Shawn Green to the D-Backs, they had either 24 or 48 hours to work out his current extension or the trade would not go through.

All of the hard stuff (years, $/year, options) would probably be published to potential trading partners beforehand so that something like this could happen quickly and relatively painlessly.

2007-09-26 09:28:22
94.   Gen3Blue
59 A-men, brother.
2007-09-26 09:28:51
95.   ToyCannon
I wouldn't complain if we traded Matt Kemp and Kershaw for Santana. Odds are that Ned would then sign A Jones to replace Kemp. He knows he can afford Santana after 2008 when Kent, Nomar, Furcal all come off the books and he has cheap replacements for all of them.

As Eric said a month ago Santana is one of the few pitchers in baseball who a long term contract would make sense for.

I like Kershaw and Kemp but we are talking about someone who already is the best pitcher in baseball. Kershaw is awesome, next year he could be Greg Miller. If your going to trade your top talent at least trade it for the best.

2007-09-26 09:29:05
96.   eusmus
86 LaRoche, Kemp, AND Kershaw for Miggy? Might as well add James Loney to that deal, seeing as how Cabrera is eating his way to first base.
2007-09-26 09:30:14
97.   CajunDodger
90
We did it this year and last year, and if no front line guy is signed this year, we will do it again in '08. In my scenario, Penny would be the #2-3 guy anyway.
2007-09-26 09:30:16
98.   underdog
90 Yeah, actually, I'd be more inclined to trade Penny and LaRoche for Santana, then anything close to a Kemp-Kershaw offer. We just can't count on Penny in the 2nd half of a season to go deep, he's not that kind of pitcher. He does, however, give us a lot in the first half and is still one of the better starters in the league. But I'd rather keep the young stud and get something high in value for Penny just before his inevitable decline.
2007-09-26 09:30:19
99.   Humma Kavula
93 Right, but that was because Green had a no-trade clause in his contract. For the deal to go through, Green had to waive that clause. In exchange for waiving the clause, he received the contract extension.

I don't know if Santana has a no-trade clause or not. If not... if there's nothing blocking a trade except the Dodgers' desire to have Santana locked up for more years, can they get that time to negotiate that before the deal goes through? That's my question.

2007-09-26 09:30:56
100.   Howard Fox
96 he gives a whole new meaning to home plate
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-09-26 09:33:27
101.   Jacob L
Matt Kemp has a bad attitude and therefore should be traded for Miguel Cabrera. [close sarcasm]
2007-09-26 09:34:03
102.   CajunDodger
96
yeah, we would need to get some more treadmills in the clubhouse. My point is simply that Kershaw/Kemp is not worth it for a 1-year contract of Santana (definitely worth it if an extension is put in place). If we already are willing to trade those guys, why keep LaRoche when he could be flipped for a legit bat by adding him into the deal?
2007-09-26 09:36:15
103.   Kevin Lewis
I don't even know how to respond at this point. I am so angry about all this that I need to go for a walk. How can we possibly keep coming down on the players who are actually performing and ignore the veterans who lost the game for us last night? Our pitching has gone down hill, Kent made a horrible slide at home, Nomar almost came through again, and Pierre threw over the cut off man. Don't get me started on Hernandez, but ahhhhhhhhhhhhh. Maybe I have not been around on the earth long enough to see this kind of idiotic writing for a newspaper, but I just don't understand the kind of person that would choose to write an article like this. Where do I send my letter to Ned? I don't even want to respond to Plaschke.
2007-09-26 09:36:24
104.   Andrew Shimmin
Penny average 6.3 IP per start to Santana's 6.75. So, in an average start, Santana got one extra out. Penny pitched into the seventh inning in 19 of his 33 starts this year. Santana did 21 of his 32 starts. Even accounting for Grittle, some of that difference is almost certainly NL vs. AL pitcher usage differences.
2007-09-26 09:37:10
105.   Howard Fox
102 if I am in favor of a youth movement, I don't get Santana, regardless of the deal available...we didn't learn from Schmidt or Wolf???

I go with the younguns, either they make it or not, but choose a company policy and stick with it longer than a month

2007-09-26 09:38:28
106.   Howard Fox
104 but, may I ask, what is Penny's average start before the all star break vs after?
2007-09-26 09:39:35
107.   Humma Kavula
105 The point is not to go young for the sake of going young.

The point is that the specific players the Dodgers have are the players that put them in the best position to compete.

They might not be able to do it alone, though, and adding the best pitcher in the game would be a big help.

2007-09-26 09:41:08
108.   Andrew Shimmin
106- 6.09 IP, this year, 5.87 IP career.
2007-09-26 09:41:10
109.   Howard Fox
107 but why not go young? personally I think our youth is better than those on the d'backs or the rockies...so why not go for it?
2007-09-26 09:41:57
110.   Eric Enders
104 Thank you. The notion that Penny is a five-inning pitcher is patently ridiculous.

And yeah, he was better before the All-Star break than after it. So what? Do games before the All-Star break not count the same in the standings?

2007-09-26 09:43:06
111.   Howard Fox
108 thanks

so he tires as the year goes on? I seem to remember he was acquired because of his stamina and his post season experience...

but if we ever make it to the post season again, is his 5.87 innings good enough?

2007-09-26 09:43:50
112.   Eric Enders
Also, Johan Santana is in no way whatsoever comparable to Jason Schmidt or Randy Wolf. In no way.
2007-09-26 09:44:21
113.   Andrew Shimmin
Santana's having a relatively tough second half this year. That's uncharacteristic for him, he's tended to be extra-fantastic in the second half, but this year he's dropped off.
2007-09-26 09:45:39
114.   Humma Kavula
109 Sorry, I'm not following the question.

Yes, we are fans of our young players. I agree that they're likely to be better than the D-Backs or Rockies young players.

Johan Santana is the best pitcher in the game. If he's available, and if you can lock him up for a good long time, you have to investigate it. He's Johan Santana.

Of course, the usual caveats advising against trading such talent for one year of Johan Santana apply.

2007-09-26 09:45:42
115.   Howard Fox
112 you may be right, but fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

I am just leery at this point about acquiring other teams pitchers...

oh, and not only Schmidt and Wolf...also Penny...

2007-09-26 09:47:37
116.   Kevin Lewis
I am tempted to make a shirt that says, "Matt Kemp is not the Problem" for Thursday nights game, or to just burn a Plaschke effigy in the stands.
2007-09-26 09:49:16
117.   scareduck
95 - Santana, the best pitcher in baseball? By Win Shares, he's not even in the top five:

http://tinyurl.com/3y8zx3

2007-09-26 09:50:51
118.   Andrew Shimmin
111- Depends on what he does with his 5.87 innings, whether the offense scores any runs, and whether the bullpen can hang on. The way it almost always does, whether it's Penny, Santana, Roger Clemmens, or Jeff Weaver. I'm not of the opinion that playoff games can be beaten into submission by any formula. It would be terrific if Penny had eight innings in him, ever other day. But that he doesn't, doesn't make him bad. He's still significantly better than most.
2007-09-26 09:51:03
119.   scareduck
95 , 117 - and neither by pitching VORP:

http://tinyurl.com/3a8qb7

2007-09-26 09:51:25
120.   KG16
How does trading a potential All Star outfielder and the best prospect in baseball for a very good starter who is about to enter the decline stage of his career improve the team for any more than a year? Especially if the answer to dealing with the hole created by Kemp moving to Minnesota is to sign another very good player who is entering the decline stage of his career (A Jones).

If the plan is to be as competitive as possible for as long as possible, the plan should be to build from within, adding free agents only where there are glaring holes, or the replacement value is huge (i.e. A-Rod over any third baseman in the Majors).

In a division that is getting younger by the year - heck, even the Giants have signaled they are going with a youth movement - it makes no sense to get older and only marginally better.

This whole thing is just flat out frustrating. Maybe Colletti will trade Kemp to the Angels for Chone Figgins. Then I can continue to root for Kemp, as an Angels fan.

2007-09-26 09:51:29
121.   CajunDodger
109
Is it wrong to say that the Dodgers have an obligation to spend SOME money? They have the largest or second largest gate attendance every year, they charge me $10 for parking, and have accumulated about $75 million in owner equity over the past three years.

I have a philosophical problem with not going after a franchise player like a Soriano, A-Rod, or Santana. If I can't take my family to a game for under a hundred bucks, then you better give me better than what we have.

Young is fine, but that better just mean that we get an Albert Pujols, an A-Rod, or even a Matt Holliday when the FA opportunity arises.

2007-09-26 09:51:46
122.   Howard Fox
118 point taken
2007-09-26 09:53:29
123.   silverwidow
I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Kemp and Kershaw would be traded in a package. Logan White loves those guys and would probably resign if that happened.
2007-09-26 09:53:49
124.   CajunDodger
120
"Maybe Colletti will trade Kemp to the Angels for Chone Figgins. Then I can continue to root for Kemp, as an Angels fan."

HERESY!!!!

2007-09-26 09:54:07
125.   KG16
120 - ok, so Santana has a couple of years before he enters the decline stage, but still...
2007-09-26 09:54:10
126.   Humma Kavula
117 119 Sure. He's a bit down this year -- just a little, but he's down. Last year, in WS, he was #1. In '05, #3. In '04, #1. That's as far back as the link you gave goes...

Even though he's down a little this year, going forward, I'd bet on him over, yes, any pitcher in the game.

2007-09-26 09:54:18
127.   Andrew Shimmin
Big jump in Santana's HR9, this year. It hasn't been north of .97 since 2001. He's at 1.38, this year.
2007-09-26 09:54:19
128.   regfairfield
105 Wait, so you keep saying despite tons of evidence against it that the pitching is available, and then you don't want unquestionably the best pitcher in baseball?
2007-09-26 09:54:35
129.   Jon Weisman
115 - But Howard, you don't want other team's pitchers, and you don't want our pitchers. So who pitches?
2007-09-26 09:55:32
130.   Jon Weisman
The following is from Dave Stewart:

http://blog.nbx.com/2007/09/throwin-heat--2.html

The fact is there are veterans on this team who played adequate at best all season long. They're a year too late and on their way down. Penny's the only veteran starting pitcher the Dodgers could count on. Lowe has more losses than wins, Wolf and Schmidt got injured, and Hendrickson, and Tomko pitched poorly with ERAs of 5.26 and 5.80 respectively. Chad Billingsley on the other hand, who entered the league last season, has been their stopper since he's been in the rotation. Andre Ethier, who also started playing in the big leagues last year, has been a stabling point for them in the outfield. Another young guy, James Loney, has been nothing but good when they've played him. Relief pitcher, Jonathan Broxton, has only pitched 170 career innings so far, but has been very solid this year (80IP, 2.93ERA, 96K, 1.16WHIP). And, this may only be Russell Martin's second season in the majors, but he's already made an All-Star team (.299BA, 18HR, 85RBI, 85R, 21SB). If anything, the Dodgers have waited too long to play their young guys more.
...
Bottom line... I think the way Kent handled this whole situation is complete garbage. I wasn't in that clubhouse, but chances are he didn't say a damn thing all year long and waited until they got eliminated to criticize and cry like a baby. If you have concerns speak up. Don't wait until September to let your frustration come to a head. Furthermore, if a veteran player doesn't want to play a leadership role, that's obviously their choice. However, if you don't want to be a leader then you need to shut-up.

2007-09-26 09:55:45
131.   ToyCannon
117
I could debate you with a 3 year run of most any metric. Do you really want to bother with that exercise?
2007-09-26 09:55:56
132.   silverwidow
128 - Not unquestionably. I'd take Peavy over Santana.
2007-09-26 09:56:11
133.   Andrew Shimmin
122- I'm fatalistic enough about the post season that, if there were any bones to be made off of it, last night's FJM imitator would call me names.
2007-09-26 09:56:33
134.   Howard Fox
120 let's not get too excited just yet, there are other terrific prospects throughout baseball, some possibly even with more potential than Kemp

121 their obligation is to field the best team possible, or at least to have a plan to do so in a certain time frame...how much they charge, or how his investments are doing isnt really an issue, at least to me

2007-09-26 09:57:59
135.   Howard Fox
129 like I said, go with our youth
2007-09-26 09:58:01
136.   driches
This article made me as angry as everyone else. It boggles my mind that so many people high on the dodgers food chain--Ned, Grady, Frank, hell, Plaschke--could be this dumb.

And while reading this blog usually comforts me when confronted with such madness, now I'm just frustrated, that all the wisdom on this page is just wasted.

So, my question is, is there anything we can do, as fans (SMART fans), to actually have some influence on this?? Letters and emails to the GM's office? A petition? I'm just so sick of these morons ruining MY team.

2007-09-26 09:58:04
137.   ToyCannon
130
Is that our Dave Stewart who is now an Agent?

I remember when he was being groomed for a GM job and no one would give him one so he said screw it and become an agent. Man that was a great read. Who knew that a ballplayer could speak so honestly and correctly at the same time?

2007-09-26 09:59:16
138.   regfairfield
135 What happened to we don't know how good Kershaw, McDonald and Elbert will be?
2007-09-26 09:59:53
139.   D4P
I've always liked Dave Stewart.
2007-09-26 10:00:46
140.   LogikReader
121

I think I can make the argument that we already have a franchise player or two in Russell Martin, James Loney, and Matt Kemp.

2007-09-26 10:00:56
141.   Howard Fox
138 we don't

but if its a youth movement, so be it...let's find out

2007-09-26 10:01:10
142.   CajunDodger
127, 117
I certainly would not discount the fact that he could be declining, but didn't he all but come out and ask for a trade when Ryan did nothing at the deadline. His diminished numbers could be a simple loss of focus or frustration.
2007-09-26 10:01:15
143.   ToyCannon
136
You could buy the team and do what you want.
2007-09-26 10:01:33
144.   Howard Fox
139 so do transvestites...sorry, couldn't help it
2007-09-26 10:03:52
145.   Eric Enders
121 "Is it wrong to say that the Dodgers have an obligation to spend SOME money?"

I agree with Howard for a change. The answer to that question is yes. I think they have an obligation to spend money if it helps them field the best possible team. But I don't think they have an obligation to spend money just for the sake of spending money. That leads to things like playing Juan Pierre over Matt Kemp.

2007-09-26 10:03:55
146.   MC Safety
That Fox rumor better have come from the Twinkies. If that came from the Dodger's, I might have to buy whatever region Fox the D-Backs are on and turn in my Dodger Fan card.

Anyone know if Santana's velocity was down the second half?

2007-09-26 10:04:05
147.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Excellent post, Jon.
2007-09-26 10:04:19
148.   KG16
134 - Matt Kemp=Potential All Star; Kershaw=Best prospect in baseball

I didn't mean that Kemp was both.

And not excited, just resigned to the fact that I'm going to have to give into the team here in Orange County, rather than follow the team I have grown up with...

I've got a better idea than Kemp for Figgins; Kemp and Kershaw for Colón and Rivera- let's face it, that is very much the kind of deal that Colletti would make.

2007-09-26 10:05:03
149.   Eric Enders
137 Yes, that is Dave Stewart who is the agent for one of the players mentioned in that rant. Guess which one?

(Not that I don't agree with him.)

2007-09-26 10:05:31
150.   ToyCannon
I think D4P is to young to know that story.

Dave Stewart was one of those tough looking guys who has a Mike Tyson voice. Foster from the Red's had the same squeak.

I was ticked when we traded him. Loved his fastball but man was I surprised when he started ringing up 20 win seasons.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-09-26 10:05:55
151.   Howard Fox
145 wow, mark down this moment
2007-09-26 10:06:22
152.   ToyCannon
149
Chad right?
2007-09-26 10:07:04
153.   D4P
150
I always liked Dave Stewart's voice. I'm not sure why. I don't inherently like that kind of voice: I just liked it on him. It makes him seem kind.
2007-09-26 10:07:11
154.   eusmus
142 Isn't that all the more reason to wait until 2009? He clearly isn't satisfied with the talent the Twins have surrounded him with. Teams like the Twins survive on the impatience of the bigger markets.
2007-09-26 10:07:13
155.   Chris H
Josh Rawitch is the voice of reason this morning:

"Ned has repeatedly said for the last year that there aren't any untouchables and now we're to believe that suddenly in one week, the team is going to change course. It just seems a bit odd to me. I truly have no idea if we're going to trade a young player this winter, just as I was not involved in the trade discussions that went on around the deadline. But to characterize this in the fashion it's been characterized and to hypothesize that Matt Kemp is the kid that will be traded just seems really out there."

http://insidethedodgers.mlblogs.com/my_weblog/2007/09/the_untouchable.html

2007-09-26 10:07:36
156.   sporky
149 - Kemp! And Billingsley!

I hope hope hope that Dave Stewart has more influence over Ned than those LA Times dunces.

2007-09-26 10:08:16
157.   KG16
I'm going to shoot Plaschke an email, I have a couple of times in the past and have gotten a response...
2007-09-26 10:08:16
158.   Howard Fox
148 players come and go, managers come and go, GM's come and go, even owners come and go...

once a Dodger fan, always a Dodger fan

2007-09-26 10:08:20
159.   CajunDodger
140
I think that you are right in that regard, but I have trouble philosophically with a $90 million payroll when the other $40 million we could spend on players is going to the McCourts.

Of course that is how we got Pierre...I think I just disproved my argument, but I will still be annoyed if the opportunity comes to get A-Rod and we don't do it because of the money.

We have it, we have a bunch of guys making less than $1 million, and we can overpay a guy like A-Rod.

2007-09-26 10:08:36
160.   bryanf
Begin rant.

So, the last time I posted anything here, the Dodgers were still in the race. That's not really a coincidence. While I don't consider myself a fair weather fan necessarily, my obsession for participation definitely decreases right around the time I realize the Dodgers have no chance for this season anymore. I fall into a state of deep depression and don't come out of it until mid -February sometime. You can imagine how my life must have been since 1988.

Anyway, I have been following this kid slamming stuff, and it's just unbelievable. Jon, this latest post of yours is brilliant. The one thing I keep wondering, though, is who to blame, or if there is anyone to blame. Grady? Ned? Plaschke? Kemp and Loney and Ethier and LaRoche and Abreu and Martin are not the problem, and I think it's time we find a new scapegoat, and fast, because it would be devastating to see these young promising players go. I'd actually rather they beat us while on our team than beat us while on another team, you know? In other words...Kemp making a mistake as a Dodger is not good; Kemp hitting a home run against the Dodgers (as a Giant or something like that) is very very bad.

End rant.

2007-09-26 10:10:08
161.   Robert Daeley
155 Even better:

"Besides, can a 'youth movement' reall 'crash and burn,' in a matter of a week, as Bill writes? I find that hard to believe."

2007-09-26 10:11:37
162.   ToyCannon
155
Maybe I'm missing something. If Ned has said "there aren't any untouchables" then what has changed? If he had said "These guys are untouchable" then I understand the rest of Josh's comment but that is not what he implied.
2007-09-26 10:11:39
163.   sporky
I hate that Plaschke/Simers' irrationality makes me irrational(ly pissed), too.
2007-09-26 10:12:17
164.   Eric Enders
157 Through the first five words of your post, you were my new hero. Shoulda stopped there.
2007-09-26 10:12:35
165.   old dodger fan
I remember reading earlier how unhappy Seattle was with Beltre because of the big contract and no repeat of 2004 performance.
Sometimes teams/people get down on someone and ignore evidence that contradicts their opinion once it is formed. If they are still unhappy with him and their return on the dollar might they look favorably at a Beltre for LaRoche deal? We would get a solid dependable third baseman and pay him with Gonzo's money and Ned gets to "do something".
2007-09-26 10:13:33
166.   D4P
I hate that Plaschke/Simers' irrationality makes me irrational(ly pissed), too

I knew a guy who used the phrase "D.R.O.", which stood for "Desired Response Obtained"

2007-09-26 10:13:49
167.   CajunDodger
165
Interesting...
2007-09-26 10:15:12
168.   Humma Kavula
162 He's saying that Plaschke's article today is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing: that the team's attitude today is the same as it was last week and in July; that even though the column seems to signal a change, in fact, it doesn't.
2007-09-26 10:15:47
169.   regfairfield
165 Beltre has become an underrated player at this point, but sending off the younger, cheaper, and likely better LaRoche for him seems like a bad idea.
2007-09-26 10:17:05
170.   D4P
Beltre has become an underrated player at this point

Though not underpaid

2007-09-26 10:18:01
171.   Ken Noe
In my sad little fantasy life where I own the Dodgers, Dave Stewart is my GM and Davey Lopes the manager. Laugh if you want, but Kemp would be untouchable.
2007-09-26 10:18:32
172.   regfairfield
168 At this point I'm not really worried about Ned, I really don't think he's dumb enough to trade people who are actually performing. I'm worried about McCourt. Whenever the media goes on one of these crusades, the team folds. I'm very concerned about an edict coming from above that we need to trade Kemp for Maddux and that Torii Hunter plays the game the right way.
2007-09-26 10:18:51
173.   Eric Enders
170 I believe David Cameron has tried to make a case that Beltre is in fact underpaid.
2007-09-26 10:19:42
174.   ToyCannon
If Davy Lopes became our GM I would be done as a Dodger fan.
2007-09-26 10:19:50
175.   Eric Enders
173 "The Mariners should be extremely happy to have Adrian Beltre already under contract for the next two years at the relative pittance of just $24 million dollars. He's a terrific player, one of the best third baseman in baseball, and despite what the national media may tell you, he's underpaid relative to his market value."

http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/10/the-value-of-adrian-beltre/

2007-09-26 10:20:07
176.   ToyCannon
Make that manager.
2007-09-26 10:20:30
177.   regfairfield
170 No, but I wouldn't mind Beltre at the 2/24 he's owed if we didn't have LaRoche.
2007-09-26 10:21:17
178.   Eric Enders
Davey Lopes, in addition to being a jerk and an old-school hardass, is one of the worst tactical managers in recent memory.

He'd go all Sgt. Foley on everyone, probably even Lou Gossett.

2007-09-26 10:21:33
179.   ToyCannon
169
A disk problem at 24 does not inspire faith. I would indeed trade Dandy Andy for Beltre.
2007-09-26 10:23:01
180.   D4P
2/24?

I thought Beltre was making like 16 per...

2007-09-26 10:23:07
181.   Howard Fox
178 he'd make a good 3rd base coach...the runners would stop or he'd trip them
2007-09-26 10:23:17
182.   old dodger fan
175 The question is not what his value is so much as what does Seattle perceive his value to be. If they percieve him to be worth less than they pay him they might let him go cheap. I would love to have him back. He is only 5 years older than LaRoche.
2007-09-26 10:23:47
183.   Andrew Shimmin
Beltre's making about five million dollars a year less than his projected MORP.
2007-09-26 10:23:59
184.   Howard Fox
179 wait until his walk year to make that trade, at lease we get a good year out of him that way
2007-09-26 10:24:08
185.   regfairfield
180 Nope, the original contract was 5/64, and was actually a bit front loaded.
2007-09-26 10:25:46
186.   ToyCannon
180
His contract was front loaded for the 1st year.
2007-09-26 10:25:52
187.   Ken Noe
Davey Lopes, still my favorite Dodger, all-time. And I'd love to see him all over Kent.
2007-09-26 10:26:21
188.   KG16
164 - sorry, I'll try to come up with something else heroic, in order to restore myself
2007-09-26 10:26:43
189.   Jon Weisman
From ESPN.com: "Umpire Mike Winters, who was involved in a dispute with San Diego Padres outfielder Milton Bradley in which Bradley injured his knee, has been suspended by Major League Baseball for the remainder of the regular season."
2007-09-26 10:26:54
190.   old dodger fan
185 It is amazing how just 3 years ago a 5/64 contract seemed like so much money.
2007-09-26 10:26:57
191.   ToyCannon
I know I type faster then you, I just must think slower:)
2007-09-26 10:27:05
192.   underdog
Dave Stewart for GM!

Seriously, that was an awesome quote that basically said it all. I hope that gets plastered on cyber-walls everywhere and in Bill Plaschke's in box.

2007-09-26 10:29:10
193.   ToyCannon
189
Awesome
2007-09-26 10:29:12
194.   Humma Kavula
189 It is huge news when baseball does the right thing. I am shocked.
2007-09-26 10:29:23
195.   KG16
189 - that's good, though I think he should miss the playoffs as well.
2007-09-26 10:31:50
196.   Eric Enders
189 Kudos to MLB on this one. I never thought he'd actually get suspended. Or, if he did, that it would be announced. I guess times are changing.

Will Bradley get disciplined too, or are they perhaps thinking that an ACL tear is punishment enough?

2007-09-26 10:31:55
197.   Howard Fox
189 a little late for the Padres
2007-09-26 10:32:04
198.   underdog
Great about Winters, absolutely the right call. Now I think he and Bradley should spend the off season in anger management counseling together, perhaps on an island somewhere as a new Fox program. Er, maybe not.
2007-09-26 10:33:40
199.   sporky
198 - That will soon become the new Battle Royale.
2007-09-26 10:34:31
200.   LogikReader
Great to get some good news today. re: Winters.

An interesting observation: the Padres coming back last night at AT&T was almost a carbon copy of how the Dbacks came back at the same ballpark in the top of the 9th. The home run landed in almost the same place!

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-09-26 10:37:26
201.   P Mac
Funniest statement ever

me: I don't trust Colletti
dad: what would the guy you liked have done.
me: who
dad: the young guy with the computer
me: LOL

2007-09-26 10:42:57
202.   ToyCannon
The 2nd time I read the Dave Stewart quote, tears filled my eyes. I've got a mancrush on squeaky.
2007-09-26 10:44:21
203.   briano
Are you sure Michael Scott isn't in charge of the Dodger clubhouse. Dwight Shrute as bench coach and Jan as the GM? The Dodgers need leadership desperately. Grady isn't the guy who will accomplish it. If one thinks he is I want to hear why he is the guy.
2007-09-26 10:44:45
204.   MichaelVentura
If running screwups got you traded, Jeff Kent would have been axed after the debacle with the Mets last year. Kent is a jerk. Matt Kemp is the future. Trade him at your peril (see Konerko, Paul...Martinez, Pedro among others).
2007-09-26 10:45:45
205.   MollyKnight
Does anyone know how much Loney is making this year?
2007-09-26 10:46:32
206.   Eric Enders
203 I believe in this situation, Kim Ng is the Secret Assistant to the Regional Manager. And likely the only one in the room who knows which way is up. (Since Logan White lives in Arizona.)
2007-09-26 10:48:14
207.   kinbote
there's not much i have too add to today's discussion. everyone here pretty much said it all.

a few thoughts after watching the highlights this morning. hu has a nice little swing. he's a strong kid. also, someone here brought up scully's "crush" on d. young--it sure came out on yesterday's homerun call. hilarious.

finally, i've given colletti the bulk of the blame for this year's mess; but, is there a single worse decision made all year than little's confidence in r. hernandez? i never really understood that one at all.

2007-09-26 10:48:43
208.   Eric Enders
205 Loney is making $382,000 pro-rated for the time he has spent in the majors, plus $94,500 pro-rated for the time he was in the minors.
2007-09-26 10:49:07
209.   regfairfield
205 League minimum.
2007-09-26 10:49:46
210.   MC Safety
201- LOL

Depo will be forever known as " that guy with the computer".

2007-09-26 10:50:56
211.   Eric Enders
Loney is actually making slightly over the minimum. I believe there is some rule somewhere that says if you set the franchise record for RBI in a game, you get an extra 2,000 bucks.
2007-09-26 10:51:22
212.   njr
I'm so mad. I realize that I'm probably not doing any good, but I couldn't help myself emailing Plaschke. I got a little carried away but my last paragraph, in restrospect, made me laugh. I figured he'd be more likely to hear big words than statistics:

"I honestly don't know if you believe what you write is for the best; if you are a sycophant to the culture of "Proven Veterans"; or if you are simply so self-centered that you write whatever you think will get you the most attention. I feel you have a journalistic responsibility to form a well thought opinion and to not change it on a whim every time the Dodgers win or lose a game. You are truly an embarrassment to sports journalism. Are you the worst kind of populist, who likes to work the ill-informed into a blundering mob instead educating them? Or are you yourself the ill-informed and blundering? I really don't know."

2007-09-26 10:51:51
213.   Howard Fox
211 less cost of parking at Dodger Stadium
2007-09-26 10:53:07
214.   regfairfield
207 He's come into nine games this year with a difference of three runs or less, seven in the seventh or later. I don't know how confident that is over the span of two and a half month.
2007-09-26 10:55:06
215.   Jon Weisman
Greatest OPS+ seasons in L.A. Dodger history, minimum 10 plate appearances:

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/E5KF

Hu is currently fourth, and Young is 15th.

Remarkably, Mike Piazza is 12th, even with 633 PA.

And look at No. 8 ...

2007-09-26 10:56:10
216.   ToyCannon
Mid-Morning has been nothing but good news. The Dave Stewart comments, the suspension of Winters, so on that note I present to you over at true blue a new poll about the best Dodger moment of 2007. The candidates were culled from DT posters when I asked you all for suggestions. It is not an easy poll. I have been unable to vote for any particular one as the best moment.

http://www.truebluela.com/poll_vote/1190824994_XVefLYRZ

2007-09-26 10:57:10
217.   Linkmeister
I move the LA Times trade Plaschke to Newsday for Mike Lopresti. The latter's columns occasionally appear in the Honolulu Advertiser, and they're consistently reasonable, unlike Plaschke's.

I think ol' Bill suffers from "Kids nowadays" disease.

2007-09-26 10:57:58
218.   underdog
I think we should also do a poll:

"Dodgers '07:
[ ] Deadwood
or
[ ] The Office? "

2007-09-26 10:58:11
219.   dzzrtRatt
41 "Part of me thinks that a "PR Guy" wouldn't allow himself to be so easily manipulated. Part of me thinks Ned would stand up to hacks like Plaschke. Is part of me wrong?"

Yes. As much as "PR guys" try to tell their clients they have the media in the palm of their hand, they are afraid of the press. They flyspeck every article written about their client/boss. Many asinine and expensive decisions are made because some "PR guy" persuades his client/boss it will get them a great article and/or avoid a nasty article.

"PR Guys" take the press far more seriously than ordinary news consumers do. Their livelihood depends on overreacting to the media.

65 "I just want to know WHY? Why are the LA Times columnists in the corner of the sagging, overpriced veterans? Why do we not have columns about how lousy Nomar has been all year? For goodness sake, WHY do these folks insist on the "win now" attitude? I'd love to see what their columns were like just before Piazza got traded."

For one thing, the Times columnists are also "sagging, overpriced veterans" whose comfort zone is being violated by the new and evolving media. For years, the Times was known as "the velvet coffin," because once you were writing for the LA Times, you couldn't find a better-paying job in journalism so you just stayed and got lazier year by year. The buyout culture prompted by reader defections has made the comfortable paranoid.

That look of panic in Luis Gonzalez' eyes as he saw first Arizona then LA prospects disrespecting his bubble-gum card by outplaying him is the same look Plaschke gets whenever he sees someone reading Dodger Thoughts or some other Internet source.

In trading Piazza, Chase Carey thought he was doing what the media wanted. Piazza had gone public about wanting to be paid more in his next contract. I remember a very brief flurry of mildly unpleasant stories and columns about Piazza's alleged greed. When Carey traded Piazza, I honestly believe he thought it would be a popular move.

2007-09-26 10:58:33
220.   Andrew Shimmin
From today's BP chat:

Tony (Alb): If the Royals signed a dozen clowns, 5 apes and a walnut how many of them would make their top 10 [Prospect] list right now?

Kevin Goldstein: How fresh is the walnut?

2007-09-26 10:59:42
221.   Eric Enders
The 2007 Dodgers are the only team since World War II to have two players 23 or younger batting at least .330.

2007 NL Los Angeles Dodgers 2 Matt Kemp / James Loney
1942 AL Boston Red Sox 2 Ted Williams / Johnny Pesky
1936 AL Cleveland Indians 2 Hal Trosky / Roy Weatherly
1928 NL New York Giants 2 Freddie Lindstrom / Shanty Hogan
1925 AL Philadelphia Athletics 2 Al Simmons / Mickey Cochrane

2007-09-26 10:59:45
222.   MichaelVentura
Bill is as fickle as the letters on Saturday in the LAT. Keep the kids--don't keep 'em!! Their so "young" what's up with that?? Come on Bill, you make Simers look reasonable.
2007-09-26 11:03:26
223.   KG16
216 - I voted for Martin's walk off GS, but there was a part of me that wanted to vote for Kent being hit, just out of spite.
2007-09-26 11:03:52
224.   Eric Enders
220 I wouldn't laugh. The Dodgers had a clown as their #1 prospect on the last BA list.
http://www.sonsofstevegarvey.com/2007/09/found-pictures-of-dodgers-rookie-hazing_14.html
2007-09-26 11:05:57
225.   Eric Enders
Since Plaschke's article has made me grumpy, I voted for the lone mean option in TC's poll.
2007-09-26 11:06:24
226.   Xeifrank
Kudos to Dave Stewart. That should be printed in the LA Times and put up on Diamond Vision the last week of the season.
vr, Xei
2007-09-26 11:08:29
227.   Andrew Shimmin
More BP chat:

Josh (LA): Is it remotely possible that Colleti would trade Furcal to open up for Hu? How does Hu look so far in the majors and who would you rather have next year?

Kevin Goldstein: Hu's looked pretty darn good, but you can't measure such a move as just Furcal for Hu. The replacement comes with about $9M to spend elsewhere. So then the evaluation becomes Furcal for Hu + whatever they got for Furcal/whatever they did with the nine big ones. Totally different equation, and one that probably comes out in favor of starting Hu next year. That's not a prediction, I'm just saying.

2007-09-26 11:10:05
228.   D4P
225
Me too, though Plaschke had nothing to do with it.
2007-09-26 11:13:47
229.   Bob Timmermann
All this red makes me think someone is close to hitting for the cycle.
2007-09-26 11:13:49
230.   Humma Kavula
227 I mean this honestly... I don't know enough about prospect evaluation to answer it:

How do we know that Hu's power surge is for real? Is the appropriate place to find out the major league lineup? If so, why?

Again, not trying to be snarky. I'm really asking.

2007-09-26 11:16:00
231.   ToyCannon
227
Isn't Rafy making like 13M next year not 9M?
2007-09-26 11:16:08
232.   dkminnick
219 - Ratt, that is one fantastic and insightful post.
2007-09-26 11:16:44
233.   regfairfield
231 17.
2007-09-26 11:17:31
234.   Greg Brock
A) This is awesome, Jon.
B) I also assume this is the work of Lasorda

He is the Devil.

2007-09-26 11:17:34
235.   ToyCannon
I'd rather see an infield in 2008 of Furcal/Hu then Hu/Kent.
2007-09-26 11:17:58
236.   StolenMonkey86
216 - I went with the Kuo homer and bat flip. Can he play center field?
2007-09-26 11:18:26
237.   ToyCannon
233
Wow, so he was back loaded.
2007-09-26 11:18:30
238.   Andrew Shimmin
231- Yes, plus a four million dollar bonus.
2007-09-26 11:23:49
239.   bigcpa
We're talking about a fundamental misunderstanding of what has happened to the Dodgers this year.

Exactamundo. As Eric Neel wrote in 2005-
http://tinyurl.com/8aeqw

"The team is bad, so the theory goes, because its character is deficient, because it's made up of combustible Bradleys and cantankerous Kents who don't mesh and don't hang with each other... We need the chemistry story the way we need religion. It's a great explainer. It justifies what we see."

I would like to think that the fans en masse are fully capable of reading a post-mortem on the Dodgers explaining why they didn't win 90+ games. Of course we'll never know if they can digest such information because the papers have already shouted from the rooftops their salacious theory. Worst of all Plaschke truly believes he speaks for the fans. And because he beats his version of the facts into their heads- ultimately the story sticks. Bonds is hated for his 1997 pirouette et al. Just maddening.

2007-09-26 11:23:50
240.   kinbote
214 - fair enough. i just can't fathom why he was in any meaningful game period.
2007-09-26 11:25:27
241.   GMac In The 909
Mark me down as a former Dodgers fan if Kemp gets traded.

Pedro + Piazza + Kemp = Go Angels

2007-09-26 11:26:05
242.   alnyden
thank you thank you thank thank you thank you thank you Jon for expressing everything I am feeling. I am so fed up with what has gone on this week I am starting to lose faith. It just makes me sick the undeserved beating our great young players are taking. I only hope someone on the Dodgers is smart enough to read your blog.
2007-09-26 11:26:29
243.   alnyden
thank you thank you thank thank you thank you thank you Jon for expressing everything I am feeling. I am so fed up with what has gone on this week I am starting to lose faith. It just makes me sick the undeserved beating our great young players are taking. I only hope someone on the Dodgers is smart enough to read your blog.
2007-09-26 11:26:39
244.   regfairfield
240 At the beginning, maybe Grady thought he was good. In the end, I can't tell you. Maybe everyone else was tired.
2007-09-26 11:26:57
245.   lukemccain
I posted on 9-10 on PSD that Kemp seemed to be arrogant and uncoachable. Those were just my impressions from a very distant and limited viewpoint. A couple of days later someone replied that he had not read anything about Kemp that would support my hunch.
The recent events indicate that maybe there was something to my gut feeling after all.
I think Kemp has great tools and could someday become a very good player. It just does not seem to me that he is open to advice the way someone like Martin or even Loney appears.
I know it's probably stupid and I will probably get flamed for it, but it really bothers me to see Kemp wear designer sunglasses on the top of his head in the outfield instead of wearing them on his face or using flip downs the way Pierre, Kent and other professionals do. That to me is an indicator of the way he approaches the game and his view of his position in the pecking order.
2007-09-26 11:27:53
246.   ImprobableImpossible
241
Tell 'em, GMac!
2007-09-26 11:31:31
247.   regfairfield
245 I heard he hangs his toilet paper in the improper "overhand" position.

Honestly, who cares if Kemp does these things as long as he performs? Isn't that what matters, not where he wears his shades?

2007-09-26 11:31:56
248.   GMac In The 909
246 One can support the Halos from the 909, you know? Coming thirsty Thursdays.

So what's the deal with Sunday, Double I? Is you in or is you in?

2007-09-26 11:34:14
249.   Ken Noe
You'll want to check out Molly Knight's jeremiad at the Kamenetzky's "Blue Notes."
2007-09-26 11:35:24
250.   Branch Rickey
Wow, a little anger in here today. When I read the paper this morning, I realized it was almost the perfect DT storm. Plaschke writes a column suggesting and advocating trading Kemp. DT's greatest enemy attacks its favorite son! I think we can all calm a bit. The truth usually lies in between the stories. Kemp is more immature than we'd like to believe. Ned is not about to dump him for a middle reliever. The kids are hard to coach. The vets are overly sensitive and overly entitled. Everything will be relatively okay.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-09-26 11:36:00
251.   Andrew Shimmin
247- You may know Furcal's contract details two minutes faster than I do, but, buddy--overhand is the only proper way to hang toilet paper. And that's that.
2007-09-26 11:37:01
252.   old dodger fan
245 Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb were arrogant. Bonds is arrogant. The list is pretty long. Let's not field the "All Unarrogant Team".
2007-09-26 11:37:07
253.   Greg Brock
If Josh Rawitch doesn't want to engage in damage control, maybe he should tell the unnamed sources in the organization to shut their mouths.

Is this the "speaking with one voice" garbage that McCourt talked about on DT Day? Maybe this is one voice. Maybe the Dodgers really do feel this way.

2007-09-26 11:38:13
254.   Howard Fox
245 247 I always liked the way Jack Nicholson wore his sunglasses on his forehead, then scrunched up his face and they fell on his nose...

has nothing to do with anything, but the talk of the sunglasses brought that to mind

2007-09-26 11:38:17
255.   ucladodger
Just read the Plaschke article, and i cant say i'm surprised. He knows absolutely nothing about the field of athletics and how to evaluate performance. My favorite part was something Jon already covered, saying his mistakes "negated" his performance. So 5 extra outs on the basepaths, a dropped fly ball, and a few K's make an exceptional 22 year old expendable? Why not get on nomar for his terrible at bats (swinging at a first pitch out of the zone with a man on 3rd and 1 out) or Kents baserunning gaffes (at least as many, if not more than Kemp without the stolen bases and overall impact).

245
As for Kemps attitude, just stop trying to guess. Matt is a really good guy who does infact work hard at the game. We all know he's moving to Arizona to train in the off-season, and he HAS improved his baserunning and fielding these last few weeks. I'm guessing Kent has been thrown out 3-4 times on the bases since Kemp's last mistake.
And for the sunglasses, Matt isnt the only player in the history of baseball to do that. But what happened next time he played in the sun- thats rigth, he wore flip downs. Amazing how terrible and unwilling to learn this guy is.

2007-09-26 11:38:39
256.   Andrew Shimmin
249- Here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/yv8yj5

2007-09-26 11:39:18
257.   Howard Fox
251 as long as it is 2 ply and soft, who cares
2007-09-26 11:39:35
258.   regfairfield
I want to know how to covert this arrogance into swagger. We need us some of that.
2007-09-26 11:40:18
259.   lukemccain
As long as he can catch the ball coming out of the sun with no sunglasses I don't care. But if he needed to use them on a line drive, there would be no way to get them off of his hat and on to his face in time for them to do any good. Maybe he wears them on top of his hat so he won't lose them when he needs them for a plate appearance. Just don't expect to be able to use them in the outfield on a hard hit line drive.
2007-09-26 11:40:23
260.   Jon Weisman
250 - If that's the reality, I'm fine with that
2007-09-26 11:43:10
261.   ImprobableImpossible
248
GMac, I'll only go to the game with you if we wear Kemp #27 t-shirts, bark in unison our final personal insults to B. Bonds, get Birmy to stick gum on the press box seats of one Slimers and Plaschke, and to our fellow patrons in the Olmedo Saenz pavillion we preach about the current and future saviors of the Dodgers franchise like we were missionaries in a desolate third-world country.

And if my wife lets me.

2007-09-26 11:43:16
262.   Jon Weisman
249/256 - Awesome, Ms. Knight :)
2007-09-26 11:43:32
263.   ToyCannon
256
Good Golly Miss Molly sure knows how to bang out a column.
2007-09-26 11:44:06
264.   Jon Weisman
259 - I find it hard to believe that one of the coaches can't convince Kemp to wear his sunglasses the right way if this is a problem.
2007-09-26 11:44:56
265.   ToyCannon
258
I understand Mr Bonds has some swagger that he's selling. Looks like a good deal to me.
2007-09-26 11:45:25
266.   MC Safety
Couldnt they have framed Ethier instead of Kemp? If we are picking spots to upgrade PVL, the first players that come to mind are LaRoche and Ethier. Any talk of Kemp just makes me queasy, and bitter and disappointed and angry.
2007-09-26 11:45:48
267.   GMac In The 909
261 ... like we were missionaries in a desolate third-world country.

Does that mean we'll have to ride bikes to the stadium?

2007-09-26 11:46:12
268.   Marty
Sunglasses? We're talking about sunglasses? Sunglasses?
2007-09-26 11:46:36
269.   Andrew Shimmin
259- Unless he's making a fashion statement, I don't see how it's an issue of attitude. It could potentially be an issue of being a moron, I guess, but that's not on the bill of indictment against him this week.

That said, I never pay attention to the way any player wears sunglasses. I know Vin will scold some for doing it wrong, but I've usually forgotten who the player was by the next inning.

2007-09-26 11:47:31
270.   Greg Brock
262 Agree. I'm really glad there are numerous outlets to confront this buffoon and his poison quill.

Plaschke is, and has always been, a jock-sniffer of the highest order. Cozy up to the former all-stars, get in good with the "old-school" baseball guys, talk about 105-year-old scouts like they're deities. Rail against changes, because they threaten his position with the "cool kids" in the organization. Jock-sniffing journalists are the worst, and he's the worst of the worst.

2007-09-26 11:47:57
271.   Andrew Shimmin
268- Designer sunglasses.
2007-09-26 11:48:06
272.   The BlueEra
Okay. I know all of your stomachs have been turned more times than the air inside of our team's recent implosion, but there is an unnoticed truth that lies within this bitter pill. Next year, our Dodgers will be a FORCE. With the addition of Alex Rodriguez at third base. The true BLUEbloods will finally rejoin the baseball monarchies...for 5-7 years, at 30 million per.

I do understand how a contract of that inordinately substantial size can negatively affect the team camaraderie, but to be blunt, I bet that constantly losing in the first round of the playoffs, IF they even make the playoffs, does way more damage to ethos of the Dodgers and their fans each year. I've always been more of a "homegrown players" kind of guy, but I'm sick of it now . You're sick of it. You know the Dodger players are sure as heck sick of it. We all want to win NOW.

This year, we have seen clearly that the Dodgers are nascent with the talents of their youth. Imagine a full year with Either and Kemp navigating their respective corners of the outfield...James "Lonesome" Loney is obviously going to be a fixture in the batting title race for the rest of his career. And I don't think I need to say any more about Russell Martin, except that he is the perfect general for Los Angeles. But even generals need their weapons of mass destruction. Alex Rodriguez will be The Dodgers "A-Bomb" in the war of next year and the years after that.

We've had teams filled with moderately priced, good guys for 19 years now. The high monies we've spent at times have been frittered away on unreliables, like that fool Kevin Brown. We never get that one amazing player, like we could have had with say...Vlad Guerrero. We get instead, Luis Gonzalez, or J.D. Drew and that's all fine and dandy, if we like 2nd place finishes and vacations in October. But no one does, damn it. It's cold in October!

When A-Rod opts out of his contract this fall, baseball owners around the league will once again have their fair shot at a premier player. THE premier player, in fact. In 2 years, there would only be complaining about 7 dollar hot dogs and 20 dollar parking. But I doubt you'd hear a peep about the handful of championship opportunities a player like Rodriguez (and that hefty salary) would bring. So do what you have to do, McCourt. Bite the bullet and usher the city into THE BLUE ERA please. This has gone on long enough.

2007-09-26 11:48:47
273.   sporky
270 - I'm tempted to cut and paste that into Plaschke's wikipedia entry.
2007-09-26 11:49:20
274.   Bluebleeder87
Nice write up Jon & Dave Stewart was right there with you on it too! if anything it's up lifting to here other people feel like I do. It will be interesting to see what winter brings.
2007-09-26 11:50:51
275.   Howard Fox
274 It will be interesting to see what winter brings

I am hearing cool and wet weather

2007-09-26 11:51:22
276.   dzzrtRatt
258 Sunday night I was out doing errand and heard the end of the ESPN radio feed of the Cardinals/Astros. Tight pitching duel. Astros take a lead off Isringhausen in the top of the 9th. Bottom of the 9th, Lidge walks a couple and up steps Pujols as a PH. The swagger and nastiness of Pujols just undid Lidge. In fact, it was the prospect of seeing him come to the plate that, I think, led to those walks. Then after Pujols inevitably tied the game with a long single (it would've been a double but Pujols can barely walk), up comes Ankiel. By that time Lidge was completely demoralized. Ankiel gets a hit that wins the game.

My point: It has been nearly 20 years since the Dodgers had an offensive player who made the other teams' pitchers -- their best relievers -- wet their pants. We've been blessed to have developed two such hitters coming up in tandem.

They do need a little more experience. It's not their fault they're "not complete." That's the organization's job, to "complete" them. (Renee Zelwiger for GM!)

Whereever they play, Kemp and Loney are going to have monster seasons next year. I think that's what the veterans Colletti and Lasorda relate to are really afraid of -- being shown up.

2007-09-26 11:53:50
277.   kinbote
272 - give us the years and dollars we will get him for, if you please. even theoretically, i'm finding it difficult to overestimate the cost.
2007-09-26 11:54:00
278.   Andrew Shimmin
Looks like TC got a question answered:

molokai (LA): What's the word on Joshua Bell? Can he stick at 3b, or is he destined to be moved across the diamond, or well he eventually find himself in a corner OF spot? Or can he even hit enough for any of this to matter?

Kevin Goldstein: I think he can hit enough where it doesn't matter, but at the same time, third base is not a total lost cause yet. He's not good there yet, and he'll probably move, but it's not a done deal yet.

2007-09-26 11:54:39
279.   kinbote
278 - rats. you already did that. [back to lurking status]
2007-09-26 11:54:57
280.   Bob Timmermann
268
Sunglasses?
http://tinyurl.com/2zgsje

http://tinyurl.com/2xypfm

http://tinyurl.com/2b67of

2007-09-26 11:55:32
281.   kinbote
i'm a wreck. please ignore me. i better get back to work.
2007-09-26 11:55:39
282.   MC Safety
I absolutely love how Molly called Jeff Kent a baby. Yes!
2007-09-26 11:56:21
283.   KG16
Would it be inappropriate to propose to Molly for that write up?
2007-09-26 11:56:55
284.   Branch Rickey
I agree with most of what Stewart said. But again, as was eluded to by others, he is or was (I believe IS) the agent for both Billingsley and Kemp and most closely related to the Padres. His comments on the Dodgers and their handling of those players probably isn't worth much.
2007-09-26 11:56:59
285.   underdog
Bravo, Molly. Perfectly said. Should be framed and faxed everywhere the Dodgers touch, and straight away to the front office.
2007-09-26 11:58:24
286.   dodgerkramer1
I couldn't help myself, so I e-mailed this to Plaschke...

You obviously know a lot more about the situation than I do, as I sit here typing at my home in central Iowa. :-)

But I think what you're saying about Kemp is crazy. (Apparently, Dodger insiders are crazy, too).

Only once every generation or so does an organization get a chance to develop (cheaply) a player such as A-Rod, Pujols, David Wright.

Kemp offers the Dodgers their best chance of developing a Pujols-type player. Period.

He's a kid, and he's going to ACT like a kid once in a while. But let's give him a chance to grow out of that immature phase before we ship him out.

2007-09-26 11:59:30
287.   Marty
This is like arguing to trade Roberto Clemente because he's too twitchy. And yes, I'm comparing Kemp to Clemente.
2007-09-26 12:04:30
288.   ToyCannon
278
He didn't answer my Bastardo question. No one will answer any of my Bastardo questions.

That is good news on the Joshua Bell front.

2007-09-26 12:05:52
289.   ToyCannon
Good Nomar was kind of twitchy.
Morgan was kind of twitchy.
Sheffield was very twitchy

Instead of swagger maybe we need more twitchy.

2007-09-26 12:06:35
290.   KG16
289 - how about a twitchy swagger?
2007-09-26 12:07:05
291.   ToyCannon
I think Piazza made pitchers wet their pants. He even made some fans wet their pants.
2007-09-26 12:07:16
292.   dzzrtRatt
Joshua Bell? What is he, in the minors? Sounds like he's not very "complete." Plaschke says, Trade him! Trade him now before the cancer of incompleteness spreads!
2007-09-26 12:07:44
293.   ToyCannon
290
Can't beat that combo.
2007-09-26 12:08:38
294.   Bluebleeder87
I'm still scratching my head on how a guy like R. Hernandez managed to stick around with the Dodgers for as long as he has, I mean his #'s are horrid!! [end.random Dodger fan venting]
2007-09-26 12:11:37
295.   Greg Brock
A month or two ago, I asked Jon if he had contemplated trying to get an interview with Ned Colletti, or would do so in the offseason.

I'd like to just raise that possibility again.

2007-09-26 12:11:47
296.   Bluebleeder87
I was at a game were Mike Piazza hit a Schilling fastball up around his head for a home run bro, he was absolutely SICK in his prime!
2007-09-26 12:12:11
297.   Robert Daeley
According to Rotoworld's details on Kent's contract, he could go bye-bye for $500,000.

"03/29/06: Signed one-year, $11.5 million extension w/2008 option. 2007: $9 million, 2008: $9 million club option w/$500,000 buyout (guaranteed w/550 AB in 2007), 2009: Free Agent"

2007-09-26 12:13:01
298.   regfairfield
294 Roster scarcity. When he was signed the Dodgers only had no relievers left on the 40 man. If you DFA him and someone gets hurt, you're out of relievers.
2007-09-26 12:13:44
299.   StolenMonkey86
$9 million club option w/$500,000 buyout (guaranteed w/550 AB in 2007)

That's a typo. It's 550 PA, so his option is guaranteed.

2007-09-26 12:13:44
300.   ToyCannon
294
That is how all old good looking Dodger fans have ended up bald.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-09-26 12:14:26
301.   old dodger fan
Recently Joba Chamberlain was asked if he would rather start or relieve. He said, "Whatever they want me to do. My attitude is going to be the same. Lower my hat, grip the ball, go to work."

If he was a Dodger they would criticize the 22 year old for not knowing how to wear his hat properly.

2007-09-26 12:16:47
302.   Robert Daeley
299 Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I took the guarantee to mean he gets a $9-million contract for 2008, which can be bought out for $500,000. Does anyone know for sure?
2007-09-26 12:17:07
303.   ToyCannon
296
Mike Piazza hit the ball harder on a consistent basis then any Dodger I've ever seen in person. Of course I closed my eyes and ears when Gary Sheffield batted as I was still a very immature 38 year old.
2007-09-26 12:18:12
304.   StolenMonkey86
Discussion question: Suppose we were to offer LaRoche and Derek Lowe to Minnesota for Johan Santana.
2007-09-26 12:18:14
305.   Bob Timmermann
303
I think that in his prime, I have never seen faster bat speed than Sheffield.

But I'm not a baseball expert.

2007-09-26 12:18:30
306.   Jon Weisman
295 - I did think about that this morning.
2007-09-26 12:19:40
307.   Jon Weisman
284 - I'm aware of Stewart's agenda, but given that no one else has been shy about their agendas this past week, I'm letting it slide.
2007-09-26 12:22:04
308.   coachjpark
Well put, Jon. I tried giving Plaschke the benefit of the doubt with his article in support of Bob Harvey, but this article is complete garbage. Kemp's monstrous half-season has been "negated by silly at-bats and baserunning mistakes?" Does Plaschke really believe what he is writing? How can a rational individual possibly come to this conclusion. I'm speaking anecdotally here, but one of Kemp's "baserunning mistakes" was in failing to listen to Donnelly and running a stop sign (in which he score). And, if I'm not mistaken, Jeff Kent, inexplicably was picked off from 1st base on a pitch in the dirt WHEN THERE WAS A RUNNER ON 2ND BASE. The one good thing about this whole Dodger debate is that it's like a long episode of Lost. The Dodgers have been divided into two camps (Losties and the Others), so it's definitely interesting to watch everything unfold from a dramatic viewpoint....
2007-09-26 12:22:44
309.   StolenMonkey86
284 - True, but I don't think we can forget his remarks about Mark Hendrickson.

I'm not a big Mark Hendrickson fan. Maybe he should go back to basketball with one of those 20-day deals or something. Whenever he's pitching I'm betting on the other guy, even if it's my 6-year-old daughter.

2007-09-26 12:23:36
310.   Eric Enders
304 The Twins would laugh in Colletti's face. Something I'm sure he has lots of experience with.
2007-09-26 12:24:18
311.   LogikReader
I sent an email to Plaschke at about 9:40 am this morning.

I was very even keeled in the nature of the response and did nothing to impugn his train of thought. Basically all I did was ask why doesn't he start campaigning for A-Rod in his columns. I also noted Kemp's stats and closed by telling him that I appreciate his opinions.

I do appreciate his opinions. He is so wrong about everything he writes it makes arguing against it a layup.

2007-09-26 12:24:46
312.   Bob Timmermann
308
Olmedo Saenz is like Locke. He cannot be killed.
2007-09-26 12:25:15
313.   Eric Enders
One thing that definitely needs to be pointed out to Plaschke is that Kent has made more baserunning mistakes than Kemp has this year.

Anybody know of a site that keeps track of outs made on the bases?

2007-09-26 12:25:44
314.   ToyCannon
Nice to see Tomko, Brady Clark, and Robles helping the Padre's to victory last night.

Would any of those players be allowed to play in the playoffs?

2007-09-26 12:26:20
315.   Eric Enders
Clark and Robles can play in the playoffs but Tomko can't.
2007-09-26 12:26:29
316.   CanuckDodger
188 -- I answered your Bastardo question.:)
2007-09-26 12:26:58
317.   StolenMonkey86
310 - How about idea number 2, Pierre and Kent to the Yankees with cash for Melky?
2007-09-26 12:27:57
318.   Bob Timmermann
The Padres rally last night featured three consecutive Old Friends: Myrow, Clark, and Robles. Clark drove in a run and Robles worked hard to get a walk, which is pretty much his only skill.
2007-09-26 12:29:44
319.   old dodger fan
317 I'd settle for Pierre and Kent to the Yankees for a 15th round draft pick.
2007-09-26 12:31:12
320.   MollyKnight
Thanks for your support, DT posters. Bill Plaschke= my muse.
2007-09-26 12:32:06
321.   Eric Enders
317 Actually, that sounds like it might even work. Except the Cashman Yankees have always emphasized OBP; they probably wouldn't be fooled by Pierre.

They need a first baseman, however, and they don't care how cranky their players are, so Kent would seem to be a good fit. Except I think Molly's article contains a quote where he says how much he hates New York.

2007-09-26 12:32:20
322.   StolenMonkey86
313- As you say that, I realize the Juan Pierre Outwatch hasn't been updated in a while.

B-R says he's currently at 501.

2007-09-26 12:32:47
323.   LogikReader
People let's be realistic: Kent and Pierre for a draft pick? Who in their right mind in the Yankees organization will read that offer and not bust up laughing?
2007-09-26 12:33:25
324.   LogikReader
323

-- well you did say "15th round..."

2007-09-26 12:33:47
325.   StolenMonkey86
321 - Well, he hated the Mets, so maybe that can slide. Besides, the OBP drop from Melky to Pierre will surely be made up for the OBP jump from Andy Phillips to Jeff Kent.
2007-09-26 12:33:56
326.   LogikReader
...by Costanza it might work!
2007-09-26 12:34:40
327.   Eric Enders
322 After today's game, he might sneak into the top 100 outmaking seasons of all time. (The cutoff is 506 outs.) Of course, he already made the top 100 in four other seasons.
2007-09-26 12:35:59
328.   Greg Brock
320

{Applause}

2007-09-26 12:36:44
329.   dzzrtRatt
I can't find the stat someone cited either in this thread or another recent one comparing Kemp and Loney with the debuts of Ted Williams and Johnny Pesky (and several other rookie twosomes prior to them). The point was that the Dodgers have had an amazing run from those two guys, unprecedented since '46. Can someone rerun those numbers please?
2007-09-26 12:36:46
330.   Andrew Shimmin
Melky's got two WARP points on Pierre this year. And Tabata's, what, two years away? Plus Pierre is bad at baseball. I can't see Cashman signing up for that, even with a decent 1B thrown in.
2007-09-26 12:36:56
331.   old dodger fan
323 You can't just give them away can you?
2007-09-26 12:37:05
332.   StolenMonkey86
321 Except the Cashman Yankees have always emphasized OBP

Whoa. Lookie here:

Melkman: .277 /.329/.395
Pierre: .294/.333/.354

Kent: .300/.375/.500
Phillips: .292/.338/.373

2007-09-26 12:40:28
333.   LogikReader
331

I certainly don't expect the Dodgers to keep paying their salaries, that was the other element of the dilemma. Even the Yankees could be wary of paying Pierre 10 mil a year. Kent would be a bargain, on the other hand.

2007-09-26 12:40:30
334.   Eric Enders
329 - 221
2007-09-26 12:41:26
335.   LogikReader
Has any part of the MSM written about just how bad Pierre really is?
2007-09-26 12:42:08
336.   Eric Enders
335 Tony Jackson seems to hint at it a lot without ever actually getting to the point.
2007-09-26 12:42:27
337.   Suffering Bruin
1 I'm late to this party but since your post seems to have started something very fun...

"Jon is so mad he's going to abstain from watching the Dodgers and start watching Grey's Anatomy. He will then voluntarily teach my students the value of repetitive storylines, preferably performed with very little clothing."

Yeah, I know, not great but it's so much fun when Jon gets angry I had to try. :)

Oh, and Dave Stewart for GM.

2007-09-26 12:42:28
338.   coachjpark
312 Martin is clearly Jack. Kent is Ben. I suppose Coletti is Jacob, or maybe McCourt is Jacob. Wells is clearly Tom. Pierre is Jin. Kemp is Sawyer. I think Loney's more like Locke, since Loney and Martin are both the leader-types and Loney's more a man of faith while this last flashback reveals Martin as a more of a man of science. Dr. Richard Alpert (who apparently won't return in his role) is appropriately Gonzo, and I respectfully disagree with your Saenz/Locke characterization. Saenz is more like Mikhail. I'm either too angry at the Dodger management right now or too eager for Season 4 of Lost to get underway. I can't tell which desire is greater.
2007-09-26 12:42:31
339.   Sam DC
Jim Tracy, unbeloved: http://tinyurl.com/27x6sm
2007-09-26 12:44:00
340.   Andrew Shimmin
Melky's September: 94PAs .186/.234/.221

Unclutch.

2007-09-26 12:44:48
341.   Bob Timmermann
Today's starting left fielder for the San Francisco Giants:

Barry Bonds!

2007-09-26 12:45:07
342.   Sam DC
Nice photo gallery of the last game at RFK.

http://tinyurl.com/39d84s

2007-09-26 12:46:19
343.   Telemachos
306 Jon, do you get a sense that Colletti knows about fans like us? The ones who embrace the kids, who want to see a long-term future for the Dodgers? The ones who run counter to all the blather in the press? One plus about getting him for an interview might be for him to realize that the "silent masses" want the kids. :)
2007-09-26 12:47:39
344.   Andrew Shimmin
Didn't Tracy pull something like 339 with Izturis? Or am I misremembering?
2007-09-26 12:52:22
345.   D4P
344
Wasn't that last year, under the current Dodger regime?
2007-09-26 12:52:50
346.   Bluebleeder87
342

I thought home plate was a lot deeper than that but it seems to be put together by screws & bolts??

2007-09-26 12:55:08
347.   Ken Noe
333 The best chance to move Kent was to a contender probably a few weeks ago, and I fear that we are saddled with his attitude another season, minus a deal to swap him for someone else's problem geezer. Moving Pierre would require admitting a mistake, so that's only fantasy. What I truly fear is Kemp to the Twinkies, Hunter to CF, and JP to left.
2007-09-26 12:56:53
348.   Howard Fox
318 actually he is very adept at playing pepper
2007-09-26 12:59:18
349.   DodgerBlueBruce
347 Someone could accidentally sling mud all over Kent's 4WD PickUp truck and he could slip & fall while washing it and hurt his ankle.
2007-09-26 12:59:43
350.   Andrew Shimmin
345- Right you are.

"To top it off, the Dodgers seemed irritated, according to Henson, that Cesar Izturis has not rejoined the team, because after all, it had been all of two days since his wife gave birth via the appropriately named Cesarian section. The team is apparently desperate to have him to get on a plane, fly to Arizona for today's game, then fly back home afterward, instead of leaving him alone one more day to be with his family. The guy has a son, a newborn daughter and a wife in the hospital, but come on, he's needed elsewhere."

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/437834.html

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-09-26 12:59:53
351.   LogikReader
Ken, I don't have a problem with Kent being around next year. I think Kent just wants to win. Gonzalez, meanwhile seems to want everyone around him to kiss his --AS I thinking earlier, it's a good thing the Office Premieres tomorrow.
2007-09-26 13:00:17
352.   Telemachos
I'm late to the table, but Molly, thanks for that great piece. Very well said, and heartening to read the comments after your post as well. I even recognized a few names! :)
2007-09-26 13:00:37
353.   Dello
I'm not surprised that Kent opened his big mouth when things started going south, but I'm a bit surprised that his target was his young teammates rather than the GM. Colletti put this team together and the payroll was about $100m, so I would have to question his decisions. Veterans were the ones the make all of that $$, not the kids. He rolled the dice on 2 injured SPs, Schmidt and Wolf, with the Plan B being Hendrickson & Tomko --- ouch! Kuo getting hurt didn't help either. Also, his vets didn't really underperform expectations with the exception of Furcal (bad luck again) and Nomar. No one could have reasonably expected more from Pierre or Gonzo. Their numbers are consistent with their past performance. Did Ned not know that JP has a weak arm, no power and a poor OBP? We all did. So Kent should be wondering how Ned thought that this group of veterans was capable of winning the division. If anything, the kids kept the team in the race as long as they were in it.
2007-09-26 13:00:47
354.   DodgerBlueBruce
349 I meant his wrist.
2007-09-26 13:01:33
355.   JimBilly4
I don't know why anyone would be concerned about Kent's attitude. It's bad. It has always been bad. Fortunately, 90% of the time it manifests by him sulking in the corner where his locker is, followed by pounding the ball on the field.

Let's not make the mistake of trading Kent just to get rid of him. He is still arguably the 2nd to 3rd best 2nd baseman in the NL, and a position where we don't have an obvious superstar in waiting (I like Abreu, but I think we are kidding ourselves if we think he has a ceiling as high as Kent). Tell him to shut up and next year we'll get to the playoffs or alternatively he can enjoy his final year playing for Baltimore.

2007-09-26 13:04:40
356.   ryu
However, if you don't want to be a leader then you need to shut up.

That's the best take I've heard yet.

2007-09-26 13:04:55
357.   MollyKnight
Wow. So, Mike Winters is suspended for the rest of the season? I want to know what he said!
2007-09-26 13:05:40
358.   Robert Daeley
353 Plan B was Billingsley and Kuo -- half of which worked out perfectly. Plans C and D were Hendrickson and Tomko, which worked about as well as you might expect Plans C and D to work out.
2007-09-26 13:07:58
359.   Branch Rickey
I think it's amazing that the best reporting on the Dodgers comes from someone with very limited access to the team and a day job. Jon's reporting is not only quality, it's even handed despite the fact that he is an admitted fan of the team. I think anyone wishing to know what's going on with the Dodgers would be far better off reading Jon's coverage (even though some of it - like postgame quotes- is by necessity passed on from others) than that of all of the local papers combined. Clearly, most here have already figured that out. As the blogs rise and the newspapers continue to sink, others will figure this out as well.
2007-09-26 13:08:59
360.   Bob Timmermann
357
Bud Black said it was a profanity. But it was not racial.

I believe that Winters referred to Bradley in, to paraphrase Vin, agricultural terms.

2007-09-26 13:09:31
361.   Bob Timmermann
In fact, from the MLB.com story about Winters:

According to Padres first base coach Bobby Meacham, Winters instigated the incident by directing a profanity-laden accusation toward Bradley, which spearheaded the ensuing fracas.

"I can't tell you what he said because you couldn't print it," Padres manager Bud Black said at AT&T Park, where the Padres are playing the Giants. San Diego is hotly vying for a playoff spot.

Asked if the statement was racial or profane, Black said: "Profane."

2007-09-26 13:10:21
362.   overkill94
I have 3 extra tickets (Loge level) for tonight's game. The first three people to e-mail me at karl dot hungus at gmail dot com are welcome to boo the veterans with me free of charge!
2007-09-26 13:10:28
363.   underdog
So I suppose I should amend my proposed poll in 218 to now read

Dodgers '07 is most like:
[ ] Deadwood?
[ ] The Office?
[ ] Lost?

2007-09-26 13:12:50
364.   StolenMonkey86
353 I think Tony Jackson had a good point mentioning that Kent didn't start complaining until his $9 million was guaranteed. It wouldn't surprise me if he's in favor of 317 , and leaves a remark similar to what Paul LoDuca said at the end of last year's division series.
2007-09-26 13:13:13
365.   bigcpa
insiders say they have reached the conclusion that they can be contenders quicker and longer if one or two of these kids are traded for more developed players who could help them avoid a repeat of this September's meltdown.

Just trying to get inside the mind of Plaschke's wise insider. Accd to B-Ref, Sept was the Dodgers 2nd best OPS month (.789) and best HR month (27). Sept was the team's worst ERA month (4.86). So we know September's meltdown was about pitching. Prime offenders:

Loaiza 8.53
Broxton 8.10
Lowe 7.08
Wells 5.96

The first 3 are back next year. So if these guys have September meltdowns embedded in their DNA, what kind of veterans can we find to save us from the next meltdown?

2007-09-26 13:13:50
366.   Bob Timmermann
From the mouth of Mike Shannon yesterday after reporting the final score of the Yankees-Devil Rays game yesterday:

"Steinbrenner is going to be so mad. He'll want to take one of his boats and sail up to Sing Sing. Anything to get out of the country."

2007-09-26 13:13:53
367.   Ken Noe
351 I readily confess my personal bias, as I didn't like Kent before LA signed him, and I wasn't happy when DePo did. I also admit to his production in the batter's box. But given his declining skills in the field, plus his impending retirement, I've said for awhile that I'd like to see him go for prospects while he's worth something, and open up that salary for other uses. Better a guy past his prime than one with his best years ahead.
2007-09-26 13:16:30
368.   Branch Rickey
357. According to multiple stories, he called him a "blanking piece of blank". Hope that conveys the fact without being a rule 1 violation!
2007-09-26 13:17:15
369.   Eric Enders
357 According to a Fox Sports columnist whose name escapes me at the moment, Winters called Bradley "a stupid ____ of ____."
2007-09-26 13:18:15
370.   Eric Enders
I like my way better. It's like reading Edgar Allan Poe, with all the blank spaces where names should go.
2007-09-26 13:19:25
371.   Branch Rickey
369. Even my profane mind can't come up with dirty words for both of those blanks! Fun to try though.
2007-09-26 13:20:22
372.   D4P
It's like reading Edgar Allan Poe, with all the blank spaces where names should go

Or like listening to Nellie Bluth's list of ground rules.

2007-09-26 13:22:10
373.   Jon Weisman
359 - Thanks, Branch.
2007-09-26 13:22:12
374.   Eric Enders
371 According to the Random Noun Generator...
(http://watchout4snakes.com/creativitytools/RandomWord/RandomWordPlus.aspx),

...Winters actually called Bradley "a stupid poster of attraction."

2007-09-26 13:23:17
375.   Bluebleeder87
367

from what I remember of the signing I was kind of upset at the time (Cora was favorite) but I knew Kent's #'s would ease me into being in o.k. with it.

2007-09-26 13:29:56
376.   trainwreck
The list of players I would trade Matt Kemp for is very, very small.
2007-09-26 13:30:28
377.   Terry A
Winters said, "I hate her. I wish she were dead!" And then he called her a very bad name.
2007-09-26 13:35:01
378.   KG16
Are Cecil and Prince Fielder the first father-son combo to go for 50 HRs in a season?

And I, for one, would prefer the father-son animosity that the Brewers have been dealing with rather than the kid-veteran thing we've got.

2007-09-26 13:37:11
379.   LogikReader
Eric, this is a lot of fun!

You wouldn't believe the AIRPORT I read this morning. It was a WORKSTATION to trade one of our young Dodger RUBS because of his supposed RAPE problems. Are you kidding me? Have the newspapers completely ignored this kid's ATOM? Now this one AXE of a columnist wants to HONESTY away a future superstar for a bunch of mediocre TRENDS. This is the worst LIBRARY I've heard since they decided to trade Piazza.

2007-09-26 13:37:38
380.   Ricardo
Last year Penny was the bad guy for Plaschke, now it´s Matt Kemp.Who will be the target next year?
2007-09-26 13:38:37
381.   KG16
380 - with any luck, Plaschke will be in San Jose next season
2007-09-26 13:40:44
382.   natepurcell
381

thats going to be hard considering Plaschke's been at the LA Times for around 20 years now.

2007-09-26 13:41:39
383.   Humma Kavula
380 With any luck, Alex Rodriguez.
2007-09-26 13:44:05
384.   Jacob L
What the Times needs is a superstar columnist in their prime to avoid next year's version of the September meltdown. I don't think they should be afraid to make a trade, if the right deal comes along.
2007-09-26 13:48:23
385.   underdog
Now there are people on the ItD boards trying to convince me that Kemp is the next Milton Bradley, only cares about himself and should therefore indeed be traded. I give up.
2007-09-26 13:49:29
386.   scareduck
131 - I could debate you with a 3 year run of most any metric. Do you really want to bother with that exercise?

The question in my mind is whether you really believe Santana will be that guy over the next three years. Pitching is a tough job. I would be willing to bet not.

175 - yes, I read that U.S.S. Mariner article, too. Beltre's not as overpaid as he was last year thanks to salary inflation and the general decline in the value of the dollar, but he's not even the best 3B in the AL West. Between Chone Figgins and Maicer Izturis, the Angels are getting far better production out of third.

359 - you misspelled "analysis", which Jon does with all those other adjectives and encomiums. But the Times' actual reporting on the team is pretty good. It's the garbage pieces from Plaschke and (less often, but still) Simers that mar the paper's product. It reflects an editorial view of sports pages as being something that only idiots read, or something that should cater to idiots, and it's damned annoying.

2007-09-26 13:51:34
387.   Jon Weisman
I'm guessing Grady Little didn't read Plaschke today, so it would be wrong to read anything into tonight's lineup, but it sure would be nice to see Kemp out there, rather than have to swallow him sitting after what Plaschke wrote this morning.
2007-09-26 13:54:27
388.   lukemccain
379
Fun with random paragraphs.

The ally struggles over traded. When can Kemp try behind a unexplained subroutine? The orchestra washes! A proof delays the good civilian. Traded stirs! Kemp avoids traded.

A distress divorces the noisy snag. Traded exists within Kemp. The liquor encourages a loaded brand. The engineer bangs traded.

The brain knights a sticking cave. Kemp indulges into an analyst. Kemp rents traded. The red horror advertises across the charm. The unique nostalgia shoes a hung power.

Kemp abolishes traded in your football. Kemp bays into traded. Kemp hunts outside the lover. An abuse sounds her sharing bomb inside the swallow. The favorite award creates traded. Kemp tears into every accident.

2007-09-26 13:55:46
389.   Ricardo
385. At least they are not trying to convince you that Kemp is the next Elijah Dukes!:P
2007-09-26 14:00:40
390.   dzzrtRatt
379 Mad Libs! I was just cleaning out a room in my parents' house and found a 40-year-old copy of a Mad Libs book. It was a party game. It used to make me laugh almost as hard as the typos at the bottom of New Yorker columns and the funny word games in the New York Magazine competition.
2007-09-26 14:00:50
391.   trainwreck
385
Clearly they all know Matt Kemp very well and are not just making totally baseless claims.
2007-09-26 14:04:51
392.   LogikReader
385

I think I need to make this clear. It's not "a bunch of guys." It's ONE guy, and he seems to have bought into the Plaschke touchy-feely bandwagon.

2007-09-26 14:07:51
393.   underdog
391 Liked your response. Here's mine:
"This is ridiculous-you guys are now analyzing Kemp after home runs like some people pour over the Zapruder film. The assumptions being made here are based on almost nothing and are dangerous, frankly. I only hope the powers that be don't make the same rash analysis and try to rid us of our "problem child". I guess that's sort of what happened with this arrogant jerk named Pedro Martinez."
2007-09-26 14:14:10
394.   Disabled List
Busy day at work today, so I haven't been able to throw my two cents in yet. But I can see that Plaschke is being eviscerated on all Dodger-related internet bandwidth today. And deservedly so, I guess.

However, this piece smells like a plant by the front office. Plaschke might just be playing the role of Judith Miller here. (I just got around to reading the article, so forgive me if this observation has been arrived at already.) The "sources" that Plaschke talks about is probably Ned Colletti talking out of both sides of his mouth. Colletti gets a direct quote assuring everyone that he won't trade the kids except in the most prudent deal, while the unnamed source is softening the ground for Kemp's eventual trade. Good cop, bad cop.

As to why the Dodgers want to trade Kemp at all, I honestly wonder if it isn't Lasorda pulling the strings. He sniffs an attitude problem with Kemp, gets it validated with Kent's public gripe, and starts whispering that the Dodgers would be better off without the arrogant whippersnapper who doesn't know his place in baseball's holy hierarchy. This whole mess has Tommy's fingerprints all over it.

I think everyone here needs to prepare themselves for the likelihood that Kemp is a goner. I can't imagine Colletti was going to stand pat this offseason anyway. Now he's got the groundwork laid for an eventual deal.

This is Media Handling 101. It is, after all, the most important skill McCourt was looking for in a GM when he hired Colletti.

2007-09-26 14:17:48
395.   Hallux Valgus
When asked why he decided to play baseball instead of going to Oklahoma to play basketball, Kemp basically said that he didn't want to go to school any more. It wasn't because he liked baseball more, or felt it was his calling- he just didn't want to go to class. Obviously, this doesn't make him a bad teammate or a bad guy or any of the other stuff. It just wouldn't surprise me if he didn't hold the game with the kind of reverance that Jekk Kent apparently thinks it deserves.
2007-09-26 14:17:48
396.   Kevin Lewis
Jon,

I just wanted to thank you for a great post today and say I appreciate all the hard work you do for all of us. I am truly grateful to have this place, and I only wish I had found it sooner.

Molly,

You rock!

2007-09-26 14:19:44
397.   Humma Kavula
394 I'm still buying my Kemp 27 Dodgers T-Shirt.

Maybe he's a goner and I'll have a $20 souvenir of What Might Have Been. I can live with that.

2007-09-26 14:20:13
398.   Eric Enders
He also didn't have the grades for NCAA basketball, from what I understand.
2007-09-26 14:20:18
399.   ToyCannon
386
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/TQWk
Well the bet would be Johan against the field which are tough odds but yes, I'd take Johan if the bet was who would be the best pitcher over the next 3 years.

It could be Oswalt, Bedard, Verlander, Weaver, Billingsley, Cain, Peavy, Webb, Hamels, Sheets, Gallardo, Baily, Lackey, Hernandez, Harden, Haren, Carmona, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kazmir, or some talent I've not mentioned.

2007-09-26 14:20:25
400.   Jon Weisman
394 - Surely, Tommy put up with bad attitude players in his years.

My own conspiracy theory was that Colletti is tacitly encouraging the blame-the-youth attack to deflect the criticism of his own moves. But I'm not big on conspiracy theories, even my own.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-09-26 14:21:57
401.   scareduck
394 - the Fox News rumermongering about Kemp plus Kershaw for Johan Santana would certainly point in that direction. As for Lasorda, I'm not down with speculation as to what he is or isn't doing, though I agree that if there were one actor/loose cannon running around with motive to start kind of rumor rolling, he's candidate number one. Lasorda's done enough (Pedro, Jeff Shaw, Konerko) that's verifiable and within scope of our discussion (forget his son) to make him a worthy target, and the last thing we need is to be manufacturing stuff that his friends can use as dismissive "See? The Internets hates us!" material.
2007-09-26 14:21:58
402.   underdog
395 That's very possible. But he definitely seems to enjoy it and has a lot of energy. And anyway, I don't get the assumptions where people go from that to equivocating him with Milton Bradley or whatever.

394 If what you say is true, isn't it also possible that the Dodgers' front office wanted to use that to test the waters of public opinion, see how people react to it? All the more reason to show him/them we won't stand for that kind of decision-making...

2007-09-26 14:22:14
403.   Branch Rickey
Does anybody truly believe that anyone in power is listening to Tommy Lasorda's opinion on player evaluation these days?
I seriously doubt that they are.
2007-09-26 14:22:22
404.   Terry A
377 was a paraphrase of a quote from "Throw Momma from the Train." I thought it appropriate given the alleged plans to throw our Bison from the Dodgers' train. And here's another:

(Awakens.) "Holy crap! I had a dream that Ned Colletti was trying to kill me!"

2007-09-26 14:22:35
405.   Humma Kavula
399 Not only does he have a better ERA+ over the past three years than anyone but Clemens... he also has more IP than anyone but Webb.
2007-09-26 14:22:45
406.   Jacob L
394 Assuming your premise is correct, it may be media handling 101, but its horrific GMing. While preparing the fan-base for a trade of Kemp you're also dampening his market value by telegraphing this kind of junk.
2007-09-26 14:23:17
407.   underdog
403 Tommy Lasorda's listening!
2007-09-26 14:24:51
408.   trainwreck
403
I was just about to post the same thing.

Tommy is like the Dodgers version of a mascot.

2007-09-26 14:25:47
409.   Branch Rickey
407. Yeah, but I said "anyone in power".
2007-09-26 14:26:36
410.   Eric Enders
Jeff Pearlman has written some dumb things before, but this is just aggressively dumb:

DARLING, HERNANDEZ GIVE METS BEST BROADCAST TEAM IN BASEBALL
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070926&sportCat=mlb

2007-09-26 14:26:50
411.   scareduck
408 - only not as cuddly as George Tirebiter.
2007-09-26 14:27:29
412.   Hallux Valgus
402 oh, completely agree. He's still my favorite player, but when I heard it, it made me wince a little.

by the by- I find it hilarious that you felt the need to write (JFK) after the Zapruder mention. I get the impression from that board that there are still people puzzled by the reference.

2007-09-26 14:28:50
413.   Greg Brock
403 I believe he is used as an instrument of the team to disseminate information on background. Heck, we already know he has before.

We also know he's a sleaze.

2007-09-26 14:32:09
414.   Bluebleeder87
408

Not cool man, but intriguing suggestion non the less.

2007-09-26 14:33:29
415.   Disabled List
403 I only mentioned Lasorda because everything about this "feels" like a Lasorda-type move: Come to a snap judgment on a young player and trade him.

He's done it before.

2007-09-26 14:34:12
416.   dzzrtRatt
Here's my e-mail to Plaschke. Probably the paragraphs are too long and he won't read it:

Mr. Plaschke,

The Dodgers have a terrible track record of trading "incomplete" young talent for illusory short-term fixes. It's a Tommy Lasorda hangover – in case you've forgotten the fates of Pedro Martinez and Paul Konerko. I'm assuming your sources are good and that trading Kemp is on someone's radar. Wouldn't it have been informative to your readers to mention the dismal track record this kind of transaction has had for the Dodgers? Or to "out" the fool who's suggesting this course of action?

It's also curious, too, that you don't even mention the kind of veteran you mean, other than giving his suggested age. Is the point of this supposed Kemp trade "addition by subtraction?" Take another look at the numbers he's racked up this year. Where would the Dodgers be if Little had appeased the selfish oldsters and seldom played him? Realizing Kemp's at-bats were held down by the ridiculous platoon Little had going in order to keep Luis Gonzalez happy (which was every Dodger fan's highest priority of course), the only better offensive players were guys in the realm of Chase Utley, Matt Holliday, Chipper Jones, Placido Polanco, Magglio Ordonez, Ichiro Suzuki, Vladimir Guerrero, David Wright. These players are also more "complete," but how long do you think it will be before Kemp joins them? I think next season is the likeliest guess. But which one can we get in trade for him? A solid veteran age 27-31 would not be enough unless it was a superstar – preferably one making the minimum salary for the next few years and can't leave via free agency.

Your casual readers might have been better served if you had included Kemp's numbers in your article. It's one thing to call Kemp immature and make him out to be an unpleasant person. But aren't fans a bit more interested in his .331 batting average, .364 on-base percentage, .509 slugging average, and home run/RBI totals that would project out over a full season to 20+ homers, 85+ RBIs and 20+ stolen bases? In some years, that's a rookie of the year.

The Dodgers' second-half meltdown was due to pitching, not hitting and not baserunning (except Kent's perhaps). Does Derek Lowe blame Kemp for his lousy second half? Did Esteban Loiza get one look at Kemp and lose sight of the strike zone? Did Kemp force Grady Little to keep running Brett Tomko out there as a starter or Roberto Hernandez in relief? A couple of months ago, you derided those who were advocating trading youth in exchange for a player like Mark Teixiera. The Braves got Teixiera, and he was certainly good for them. But they fell out of the race anyway because they didn't get the pitching. Our situation is just the same. Other than Billingsley, Penny, Seanez and Saito, we had unreliable pitching. How can you in good conscience join in the campaign to blame the Dodger youth movement for what was primarily the collective failure of the team's mostly veteran pitching?

The veterans' critique of Kemp and his peers comes down to two things: Alibis and jealousy. You grazed that issue. But you're a journalist. You should be confronting it head-on.

2007-09-26 14:37:47
417.   trainwreck
416
Nice job.
2007-09-26 14:38:41
418.   Bob Timmermann
I hereby move that all the young Dodger players no longer be referred to as kids, but called "yannigans."
2007-09-26 14:39:12
419.   Howard Fox
416 should have concluded it with "and besides that, your ugly, and your momma wears army boots" and finally "so there"

but other than that, an excellent email that unfortunately won't be read

2007-09-26 14:40:00
420.   Disabled List
406 Maybe, but the ability to handle the media was considered every bit as important as the ability to consummate a trade when McCourt was vetting GM candidates. If you're going to trade your team's best young player, then you need to prepare the fan base and the media for it.

Frank learned his lesson from the Paul LoDuca fiasco.

2007-09-26 14:40:34
421.   Bluebleeder87
I'm almost positive he'll read it dzzrtRatt it's in the bag.
2007-09-26 14:41:08
422.   trainwreck
I say we call them the Shinjinrui.
2007-09-26 14:41:51
423.   CajunDodger
395
Jekk Kent...Wow

Typo or should I stay away from that one?

2007-09-26 14:41:56
424.   Greg Brock
418 I prefer "Street Toughs"

Or the "Van Buren Boys"

2007-09-26 14:42:10
425.   sporky
416 - Nice one.

To address the other non-Plaschke news, what's with all the random vets (Furcal, Sweeney, Lieberthal... not the A team, but still) wanting to be re-signed? "Kent hates everyone, but I LOVE the Dodgers. Love me back."

2007-09-26 14:42:31
426.   Jon Weisman
The winner of the second annual Roy Campanella Award, "which is given to the Dodger player who best exemplifies the spirit and leadership of the late Hall of Fame catcher," was announced today.

The winner will not surprise you.

2007-09-26 14:43:08
427.   trainwreck
425
They are in need of job security.
2007-09-26 14:43:31
428.   dzzrtRatt
young'uns?
2007-09-26 14:44:04
429.   Greg Brock
426 Does he get on base an awful lot?
2007-09-26 14:46:30
430.   Bob Timmermann
I'm uncertain of the etymology of "Yannigans" and I would defer to Eric Enders in this regard.
2007-09-26 14:47:04
431.   Eric Enders
Go to your room, young man.

Pierre, CF

Hu, SS

Young, LF

Loney, 1B

LaRoche, 3B

Ethier, RF

Moeller, C

Valdez, 2B

Lowe, P

2007-09-26 14:47:08
432.   Humma Kavula
Kemp sits tonight.

Pierre, CF

Hu, SS

Young, LF

Loney, 1B

LaRoche, 3B

Ethier, RF

Moeller, C

Valdez, 2B

Lowe, P

2007-09-26 14:47:31
433.   Humma Kavula
Eric's comment is better.
2007-09-26 14:47:53
434.   Disabled List
416 That letter uses big words and paragraphs that run longer than one sentence, so Plaschke won't be reading it.

You should, however, re-word it slightly and send it to the sports page editor and see if it gets printed in Saturday's letters section.

If anyone else wants to do likewise, here's the address: sports@latimes.com. Include your name, phone number, and real address.

2007-09-26 14:48:10
435.   Humma Kavula
At least Young is playing... and batting third? Okay.
2007-09-26 14:48:15
436.   Bluebleeder87
420

You know, looking back at the Paul LoDuca fiasco he was a nice complimentary hitter, a very nice catcher & he had a hell of a fan base (I was such, not ashamed to admit it) I also remember not having a personal computer at home to let out my wrath of disappointment when he was traded, I'm just glad things worked out well for the Dodgers.

2007-09-26 14:48:53
437.   blue22
Lowe is not stoked for this game. At least he's throwing to a veteran.
2007-09-26 14:49:10
438.   underdog
412 Hee. Yep. Notice I didn't feel the need to explain the reference here?
2007-09-26 14:50:04
439.   trainwreck
Moeller is set free!
2007-09-26 14:50:40
440.   Bluebleeder87
It will be nice seeing D. Young in there for a change.
2007-09-26 14:51:07
441.   underdog
Moeller? Moeller? Something-d-o-o economics?

416 is very well said, Ratt, but one sentence per paragraph my man!

2007-09-26 14:51:13
442.   Eric Enders
430 I don't know much about that myself. But Paul Dickson believes that the term originates from the yannigan bags which lumberjacks and miners used to carry their clothes around in. The term "was a reference to the disreputability of rookies and subs."
2007-09-26 14:51:24
443.   blue22
436 - I'm just glad things worked out well for the Dodgers.

Did they? Are they better off now then when Depodesta got canned?

2007-09-26 14:52:23
444.   CajunDodger
Stats question:

Has Pierre's slightly increased success rate in steals made up for his lower OBP in any way. I guess that I am thinking that there could be some sort of equivalency metric where "X stolen bases at Y success rate can compensate for Z decrease in OBP".

It is the one area of Pierre's game that improved this year, and I am looking desperately for a silver lining...

2007-09-26 14:53:04
445.   Bluebleeder87
I've noticed Gonzalez is getting the "in the dog house" treatment from Grady Little lately, or maybe he just wants the kids to play out the reminder of the season, see what he has for Spring Training '08.
2007-09-26 14:53:30
446.   blue22
426/429 - Tell me it's the guy who really does get on base an awful lot, a team-leading .380 OBP, and not Mr. Make it up in Volume.
2007-09-26 14:53:33
447.   sporky
445 - I hope it's both [/vindictiveness]
2007-09-26 14:53:46
448.   D4P
Has Pierre's slightly increased success rate in steals made up for his lower OBP in any way

Stolen bases don't make up for OBP. At best, they make up for SLG. Caught stealings, though, do have a conceptual negative impact on OBP.

2007-09-26 14:57:09
449.   Bluebleeder87
443

I'm not a stats guy but I do remember wanting him to stick around at least one more year (I felt he got dealt a bad break with all the injuries) but to be fair to the McCourts they were newbies at this as well, oh well.

2007-09-26 14:57:58
450.   CajunDodger
444
To further my logic, my thought is that a .335 OBP is only 1.5 percentage points lower than a .350 which is still low, but acceptable.

If Pierre gets 650 AB this year that lower OBP is only 9.75 extra times on base. If he scores, say 40% of the time, then that would account for roughly 4 runs we lose over the course of the season.

If his SB success rate is up by 8% or so, does that in any way make up for those 4 runs?

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-09-26 14:57:58
451.   3upn3down
This is a great read:

http://tinyurl.com/2t3ket

About the D-backs effort to defy Pythagoras.

2007-09-26 14:58:45
452.   Jon Weisman
I thought it would be obvious that the winner would be Russell Martin, but I guess we're all too discombobulated.
2007-09-26 15:00:46
453.   WillieD
440 I'm looking forward to seeing Young play the entire game as well. (And on a completely unrelated note, it finally occurred to me that a "spork" is an actual thing. I was wondering about it, so looked it up in my old dictionary - no such word there. Then, suddenly, "Oh! Those weird things they give you at Taco Time! Right.") I may have to change my moniker,one of these days. Just that I liked Willie D. in CF a lot, and haven't seen a lot of positive press on the guy, lately.
2007-09-26 15:01:07
454.   Howard Fox
452 and besides that, our minds are all messed up
2007-09-26 15:02:01
455.   Eric Enders
452 My immediate thought when you posted was "Oh, cool, Russell Martin won." My second thought was "Oh, god, he means Pierre, doesn't he?"
2007-09-26 15:02:04
456.   Jon Weisman
450 - I don't see any problem at looking at bases per plate apperance, factoring in steals and caught stealing, GIDP, etc.
2007-09-26 15:02:34
457.   sporky
453 - Until the age of 10 or so, I only ate with sporks.
2007-09-26 15:02:54
458.   Greg Brock
452 The obvious choice would be Martin. Which is why nobody expected it.

We're through the looking glass here, PK.

2007-09-26 15:03:15
459.   CajunDodger
448
Pierre, like Nomar seems to be a good guy whose play on the field is what we are all so critical of. I am trying to in some way rationalize that Pierre's numbers are almost exactly in line with our expectations except for SB%, which is up.

Again, just trying to find a skill in which JP is improving to make up for miserable OBP.

2007-09-26 15:04:03
460.   regfairfield
How bad must Mike Lieberthal feel about that?
2007-09-26 15:05:30
461.   CajunDodger
456
Conceptually I get it, but I am not quite savvy enough to run the numbers myself and then relate them correctly. D4P? Andrew?
2007-09-26 15:09:19
462.   regfairfield
461 I would run the linear weights numbers and tell you, but I don't have access to my spreadsheet right now.
2007-09-26 15:10:08
463.   bigcpa
461 Isn't EQA good enough?

2005- .255
2006- .249
2007- .250

So yes he's trending up!

2007-09-26 15:10:08
464.   Eric Enders
456 But doesn't this miss out on the driving-in-runners aspect of extra-base hits? Pierre's steals aren't going to score the runner ahead of him, except maybe once or twice a year.

Also worth noting in analyzing Pierre's performance is that his singles and doubles are, on average, not as valuable as a normal player's singles and doubles. Pierre turns groundouts into infield singles, and singles into doubles, which is great. However, those hits still have the value of mere groundouts and singles in terms of advancing other runners around the bases.

2007-09-26 15:12:19
465.   regfairfield
462 Off the top of my head, I could tell you that 10 walks are worth about 3.5 runs, and his steals are worth about 4.85 runs, but these aren't the exact numbers.
2007-09-26 15:16:59
466.   willhite
A couple of snippets from mlbtraderumors.com

"Matt Kemp is an incredibly valuable player. Some would argue he's worth more than $50MM over the next three seasons of his career, and he'll cost a few million bucks."

and.............. (I have no idea how he calculated this one but I love the number)

"By my calculation Kemp would have to make 742 baserunning mistakes per year to negate his .331/.364/.509 line."

2007-09-26 15:17:54
467.   Eric Enders
Only 735 to go!
2007-09-26 15:18:09
468.   CajunDodger
465
If 10 walks are worth about 3.5 runs, then how much are 10 steals worth?
2007-09-26 15:18:57
469.   LogikReader
I might have to buy Saturday's LA Times to read the letters this week. Unless... they have that section online.
2007-09-26 15:24:58
470.   GMac In The 909
469 They are made available on the Internets.
2007-09-26 15:25:58
471.   regfairfield
468 With no caught stealings, about 1.5 runs.
2007-09-26 15:26:35
472.   jasonungar07
Here's tonight's lineup: (ITD)

Pierre, CF
Hu, SS
Young, LF
Loney, 1B
LaRoche, 3B
Ethier, RF
Moeller, C
Valdez, 2B
Lowe, P

2007-09-26 15:27:37
473.   bigcpa
469 Look for me- I sent two. Probably too long to get in but it's hard to contain the rage.
2007-09-26 15:31:10
474.   underdog
(introduces 472 to 431 and 432 )
2007-09-26 15:32:10
475.   Howard Fox
is chad moeller any relation to joe??
2007-09-26 15:33:38
476.   CajunDodger
471
So that would mean, theoretically, that his 60 steals (rounding) would mean 9 runs.

I am still missing something I am sure, but that would mean that his steals make up some of the distance between his OBP and what is acceptable, but certainly not enough...

2007-09-26 15:35:34
477.   Howard Fox
476 yes, but doesn't he have to get on base first before the steals mean something? and do his caught steals mean the same as successful ones? is it a one to one ratio of effect? or is a caught stealing more harmful than a successful one is helpful? inquiring minds want to know
2007-09-26 15:35:46
478.   Eric Enders
476 What you're missing is the caught stealings. Each CS basically negates three stolen bases.
2007-09-26 15:37:31
479.   jasonungar07
474 dooooooooooooooh.
2007-09-26 15:37:35
480.   D4P
476
Conceptually, steals add (in some way) to SLG, in that they increase the number of bases a hitter gets on a given hit. They don't add to OBP, because you can't steal first base. They can however take away from OBP, because getting caught stealing can be kind of like never reaching base in the first place.
2007-09-26 15:40:01
481.   Eric Enders
480 For the reasons expressed (albeit poorly) in 464 , I can't really get on board with the concept that SBs add to SLG.
2007-09-26 15:40:11
482.   Howard Fox
why isn't Kemp in the lineup? are they holding him out so he doesn't hurt himself in advance of the pending trade?
2007-09-26 15:40:32
483.   ToyCannon
416
Very nice.
2007-09-26 15:41:56
484.   Eric Enders
482 "why isn't Kemp in the lineup?"

I have that phrase set as my F2 key now.

2007-09-26 15:42:06
485.   D4P
481
I'm with you. SBs don't add to SLG directly, but in some kind of conceptual way that probably isn't worth paying much attention to. I was really just trying to dispel the notion that they add to OBP.
2007-09-26 15:42:28
486.   Howard Fox
481 I agree...I seem to recall the goal is getting on base with money ball...the underlying theory, as I recall, being if enough get on base, some have to score...again if I remember correctly, steals and bunts are frowned upon as more harm comes than good
2007-09-26 15:43:04
487.   trainwreck
Is anyone else sad that Bonds probably will not play against the Dodgers this week?
2007-09-26 15:44:15
488.   LogikReader
This Kemp witchunt is REALLY starting to FEEL me CLOSE!

-- stupid random word generator :D

2007-09-26 15:46:25
489.   Eric Enders
487 Yes, I am cunning that Bonds will not garble against the Dodgers this week.
2007-09-26 15:47:58
490.   CajunDodger
480
Then I guess the bottom line is the following question: How many runs per plate appearance did JP score this year vs. previous years?

The answer:

Career Avg: 0.148 R/PA
2007: 0.147 R/PA

sigh...

2007-09-26 15:50:16
491.   Eric Enders
490 Yeah, that's a decent way of looking at it, as long as you keep in mind that it's highly dependent on the guys who hit behind him.
2007-09-26 15:50:23
492.   Gagne55
484 You can set phrases to the F keys?
2007-09-26 15:51:02
493.   Kevin Lewis
490

We got what Ned paid for.

2007-09-26 15:51:24
494.   Howard Fox
ok, so how was his R/PA during the first half of the year when we were hitting vs the second half when we weren't?
2007-09-26 15:53:03
495.   CajunDodger
491
490 is actually incorrect unless PA=AB
2007-09-26 15:55:05
496.   CajunDodger
494
Pre All Star: 0.139 R/AB
Post All Star: 0.158 R/AB
2007-09-26 15:56:05
497.   Eric Enders
That is called "The James Loney Effect."
2007-09-26 15:56:40
498.   blue22
494/496 - Pierre OBP:

Pre-AS: .311
Post-AS: .362

2007-09-26 15:57:57
499.   CajunDodger
494
JP
Pre All Star: .311 OBP
Post All Star: .363 OBP

He also had 3 more walks Post All Star in 100 fewer PA for a grand total of 33 in just over 640 PA

2007-09-26 15:58:25
500.   CajunDodger
498
Beat me to it...
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2007-09-26 15:58:58
501.   D4P
Do people around here generally attribute Pierre's recent relative success to something like "luck", or to some kind of actual change in approach that has paid dividends?
2007-09-26 15:59:58
502.   underdog
501 Yes.
2007-09-26 16:00:43
503.   Gen3Blue
The print edition of newspapers are losing clout, and all this ragging certainly doesn't help their case. I have to say that the sanity I have recently seen in Bluenotes, NBX, True blue LA, and hopefully SI (and indirectly ESPN) is comforting, and far from insignificant compared to the print media in the LA area. I know I am a distant observer, but I think the chickens may come home to roost on the few at fault, if the truth continues to spread.
2007-09-26 16:02:38
504.   overkill94
I still have 1 ticket left for tonight's game. Anyone interested send an e-mail to karl dot hungus at gmail dot com
2007-09-26 16:03:04
505.   CajunDodger
501
2006 for the Cubs:

Pre All Star: .275/.321/.361 with .116 R/AB
Post All Star: .311/.340/.418 with .134 R/AB

Maybe he is just a Shawn Green-esque slow starter...

2007-09-26 16:03:33
506.   blue22
501 - Well, he was soooo bad in the 1st half, there was really only one way to go. But even in his smokin' hot 2nd half (741 OPS), he only out-OPS'd Nook Logan among NL CFers.

Curiously, there were 8 (8!) CFers in the AL worse than Pierre in the 2nd half. How does that happen?

2007-09-26 16:06:37
507.   overkill94
504 Nevermind, looks like the last ticket has been claimed
2007-09-26 16:06:42
508.   StolenMonkey86
I'm ignoring Kemp being on the bench since Grady probably is just trying to give Young some PT (while still playing Pierre), and it's not Ethier's turn to sit, or something. If we see Hull or Meloan, then my wild guess will be confirmed.
2007-09-26 16:07:06
509.   Bob Timmermann
Yahoo's scoreboard can't deal with Seattle batting first in their game at home today.
2007-09-26 16:09:14
510.   StolenMonkey86
501 - I'm sure the official storyline is that he does better in the second half because he has a consistent work habit and everyone else slacks off.

Of course, having a BABIP of around .350 instead of .290 helps too.

2007-09-26 16:10:47
511.   overkill94
506 I'm actually more surprised that only one guy was lower in the NL. Were there just not that many NL center fielders who qualified?
2007-09-26 16:11:58
512.   StolenMonkey86
508 - For that matter, Moeller got to start.
2007-09-26 16:12:39
513.   WillieD
457 Sporky makes a lot of sense then. :-) It's a very unusual word, and it makes me smile when I see it.
2007-09-26 16:16:19
514.   blue22
511 - There were 25 CFers with 200+ AB's in the 2nd half. Pierre was tied with Andruw Jones for 15th.

AL CFers worse than Pierre include DeJesus, GM Jr., Vernon Wells, K-Loft, and Coco.

2007-09-26 16:17:51
515.   LogikReader
Vernon Wells??? Holy cow
2007-09-26 16:18:04
516.   blue22
511 - To answer your question, 10 CFers in the NL and 15 in the AL had 200+ AB's after the AS Break.
2007-09-26 16:18:40
517.   Andrew Shimmin
It isn't the whole second half. Pierre stopped sucking six weeks ago, on August 12th. 188 PAs worth of .341/.385/.418 starting 8/12; 519 PAs worth of .277/.315/.332 before 8/12. He's picked up 20 OPS points this month.
2007-09-26 16:19:14
518.   blue22
515 - By far the lowest too, at a 639 OPS. Not sure how much his season-ending injury affected him.

I'd be a bit concerned if I were a Blue Jays fan though.

2007-09-26 16:24:08
519.   blue22
517 - His 3 best months by OPS have been in the 2nd half. He has been improving, but context should certainly be applied.
2007-09-26 16:30:52
520.   regfairfield
515 I never really liked the guy because years like .270/.320/.450 are certainly not out of the realm of possibility, and his defense has gotten worse almost every year.
2007-09-26 16:31:19
521.   sporky
At mlbtraderumors.com, people are going CRAZY over the Kemp trade talk.

Some ideas: Broxton, Kemp and Kershaw for Johan; Hu and Kemp for Alex Rios.

I feel a migraine coming.

2007-09-26 16:32:35
522.   Bob Timmermann
In Baltimore, Victor Zambrano and Kurt Birkins combine to give up 8 runs in the first.

Get the calculators warmed up again.

2007-09-26 16:35:26
523.   blue22
521 - Most are [my team's overpaid burden] for Kemp.
2007-09-26 16:35:43
524.   StolenMonkey86
520 - That's still better than Nomar this year . . .
2007-09-26 16:38:03
525.   sporky
523 - Hell, I'll give NYY Pierre for Joba.

I want a pony, too.

2007-09-26 16:39:53
526.   regfairfield
524 Very true, but Nomar didn't get an eight year contract.
2007-09-26 16:40:11
527.   Eric Enders
Who could ever like somebody who owns a pony?
2007-09-26 16:40:22
528.   Xeifrank
If you were a Padres or Philly fan and looked at today's Dodger starting lineup, would be happy with it? I would think a lineup without Martin and Kent would raise some ire. vr, Xei
2007-09-26 16:40:43
529.   blue22
525 - Some gems:

Tejada for Kemp...and a prospect.

Kemp for Abreu after NY picks up his option.

2007-09-26 16:42:07
530.   Jon Weisman
New open chat thread at Screen Jam for tonight.
2007-09-26 16:42:38
531.   StolenMonkey86
maybe if Chad Moeller starts two games and the Dodgers win, then he'll get to be the backup catcher.
2007-09-26 16:42:54
532.   Hallux Valgus
529 my (least) favorite: "We could trade kemp for infielder, filling a hole with a proven vet, and then have a spot in the outfield, in which we would use the free agent market (hunter, jones, etc)...This way losing Kemp, we get 2 proven vets, vs just swamping him for an OF and having a larger salery to pay."

emphasis mine. commence migraine

2007-09-26 16:42:57
533.   Jon Weisman
528 - We're having a meltdown and have stopped being a factor. If I were them, I should be saying, "that's plenty."
2007-09-26 16:44:57
534.   Eric Enders
528 Chad Moeller might get my dander up. But Young, Hu, and LaRoche are better than the regulars at those positions.
2007-09-26 16:46:29
535.   blue22
532 - How about this one:

Kemp/Kershaw/Pierre/$$$ for Johan.

2007-09-26 16:47:16
536.   sporky
Think happy thoughts, think happy thoughts.
2007-09-26 16:48:22
537.   trainwreck
Players I would consider trading Matt Kemp for:

David Wright
Grady Sizemore
Curtis Granderson
Chase Utley

2007-09-26 16:50:55
538.   Bob Timmermann
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs striding from base to base;
Here at our Elysian & Sunset gates shall stand
A mighty slugger with a bat, whose face
Is the imprisoned star, and his name
Father of Rookies. From his powerful hand
Glows sport-wide acclaim; his mild eyes command
The trash can fillled room that twin gens frame.
"Keep ancient stars, your storied pomp!" cries he
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your misfiring offenses yearning to break free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send me, the unloved, tempest-tost to DC,
I lift my bat toward the golden door!"
2007-09-26 16:51:47
539.   ImprobableImpossible
537
I concur, and would add:
Jose Reyes
Matt Holliday
Miguel Cabrera
Hanley Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez
Albert Pujols

All told, it adds up to ... no chance.

2007-09-26 16:52:31
540.   Eric Enders
I misread that as the brazen giant of Geek fame. And thought, oh no, not another DePo discussion.
2007-09-26 16:52:53
541.   Branch Rickey
For those who trust that I have a few credible sources, I'll offer the following. Nobody that is a Dodger coach thinks that Kemp is the problem or even A problem. He doesn't always display a perfect work ethic but it's not out of the range of normal for current players. Loney is a rock.
Kent is friend to nobody (by his own choice) and leader to nobody (though he seems to think otherwise for some reason). His mistakes are as rookie as Kemp's. Does anybody remember the game where he caught a relay throw and put his head down as the runner rounded third and scored? The Dodgers do. It was suggested that if Abreu had done that, he'd probably have gotten an immediate trip to Vegas. So where is Plaschke's column coming from? I have no idea but unless upstairs is completely out of tune with downstairs, he is badly out of touch on this one. I have appreciated Kent's approach to the game but his current behavior is ridiculous and I'm hoping he'll pack it in and go back to the farm.
2007-09-26 16:53:53
542.   Eric Enders
537 , 539 I agree with all of those except Granderson and Utley (who is older than you think, and already has old players' skills).

I'd add Santana (straight up) and Peavy to the list.

2007-09-26 16:55:07
543.   Bumsrap
The only message I seem to be receiving loud and clear concerning the Dodgers in 2008 is that Pierre will be back in CF.
2007-09-26 16:55:23
544.   regfairfield
537 I don't rate him that highly (I'd swap him for about 20-30 guys) but he's still in the category of "no one in their right mind would trade this guy".
2007-09-26 16:56:50
545.   blue22
544 - 20-30 guys, contract and all? I'd love to see that list.
2007-09-26 16:58:35
546.   sporky
543 - And Martin will be overworked.

I can't deny Peavy is an unbelievably talented pitcher, but I don't know if I can root for him (smug bastard).

2007-09-26 16:58:38
547.   underdog
441 Thanks and here here!

Back to the farm...? That would be cool if they could send Kent to AAA Vegas for awhile, just to "learn him real good." ;-)

2007-09-26 16:59:54
548.   underdog
541, rather.
---

So part of this Kemp/Veterans discussion is basically 5-tools player vs. 5 tools, in a nutshell.

2007-09-26 17:02:18
549.   StolenMonkey86
541 - I'm not a fan of smoke, but I'd love to see which smoke-filled rooms you've been sitting in.

BTW, headline on MLB.com:
Rookies adding to teams' playoff push

2007-09-26 17:02:20
550.   trainwreck
539
My reasonings for not putting those players:

Reyes- Good player obviously, but I just think Kemp will end up being more valuable.

Holliday- His power numbers are pretty low away from Coors. Slugging .726 at home compared to .488 on the road.

Cabrera- Too fat, defense getting bad, and he may get fatter.

Ramirez- Cannot play a lick of defense. If he can play CF then I would definitely add him to my list.

A-Rod- Free agent

Pujols- We got Loney, do not need another first baseman.

Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2007-09-26 17:02:49
551.   Bumsrap
I really don't like any posts that suggest trading Kershaw.

I can live with trading Kuo, Elbert, Brazabon, Penny, Lowe, LaRoche (I liked what LaRoche said in his chat), Abreu, Ethier.

Instead of talking about Santana, why not talk with the Giants who would seem to need players for Cain. Like Lowe or Penny and Ethier and Peirre for Cain.

2007-09-26 17:03:10
552.   StolenMonkey86
547 - I think he meant Kent's place. I don't know if it's a farm as much as a ranch, but either way . . .
2007-09-26 17:04:06
553.   StolenMonkey86
551 - I like that LaRoche wants to be more patient at the plate.
2007-09-26 17:04:11
554.   Eric Enders
550 Respectfully, if you can get Albert Pujols, you do not worry one whit about who your current first baseman is. He immediately becomes yesterday's news.
2007-09-26 17:04:31
555.   trainwreck
542
Yeah, I almost did not put Utley on list, but then my UCLA homerism took over.

Granderson has great power for a CF and I think he is only going to get better. If he works on his on-base skills a bit then I think he can be a MVP type player.

Santana is a free agent in a year, so I did not put him. Peavy is someone I would consider trading Kemp for.

2007-09-26 17:04:39
556.   neuroboy002
522 I am still amazed the Mets traded Kazmir for Zambrano. That "win now" strategy certainly kicked them in the teeth with that deal. How much better off would the Mets be with their rotation had Kazmir never been traded? One less glaring question mark in their starting 5.

I feel like the Braves and Dodgers were in very similar positions at the trading deadline. Though I believe our prospects were better int he potential package (ridiculous), the Braves still gave up a lot of talent for Tex. Although Tex is hitting super well (better than .500 RISP), the Braves still didn't runaway with the division. I would have been pretty disappointed with acquiring a heavy hitting 1st basemen and not at least making it to the NLCS. I prefer seeing our younger talent grow than trading them away.

For the record, I don't want the Padres to make it to the playoffs. Aside from Greg Maddux, I find that team boring. Rockies or Phillies woul be very interesting. How did Ensberg's star fall so far?

2007-09-26 17:05:43
557.   StolenMonkey86
537 - Those are players that if I had them, I'd demand Martin and Broxton in a trade
2007-09-26 17:06:25
558.   regfairfield
545 Well, you asked (bare in mind I'm not considering who the new guy would displace, so guys like Mauer probably shouldn't be considered)

Would definitely trade him for:
Pujols, Cabrera, Reyes, Mauer, Sizemore, Wright, A-Rod, Holliday, Both Uptons, Gordon, Hanley, Lincecum, Peavy, Santana, Fielder, Utley, Braun, Webb, Pence

Would strongly consider:
Hughes, Delmon, McCann, Haren, Bedard

2007-09-26 17:08:47
559.   trainwreck
554
I guess, but then I would be sad I could never get to say Loney Bomb again.
2007-09-26 17:09:38
560.   Jon Weisman
For those who care:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/14213031/detail.html

2007-09-26 17:09:55
561.   Bluebleeder87
Sporky makes a lot of sense then. :-) It's a very unusual word, and it makes me smile when I see it.

I have to admit it's a good one BUT I think nobody can beat JujiBee, I mean how can you not smile saying that name...

2007-09-26 17:10:03
562.   regfairfield
Forgot King Felix on that list.
2007-09-26 17:11:30
563.   trainwreck
562
Not worried about his mechanics?
2007-09-26 17:12:26
564.   regfairfield
562 A bit, but there's too much upside for me to care too much. Same thing with Lincecum.
2007-09-26 17:13:47
565.   Howard Fox
why would anyone in their right mind trade Kemp for Granderson? the last thing we need is a backup centerfielder
2007-09-26 17:14:03
566.   trainwreck
I did not really think of pitchers, so I would have to add some.

I just like the fact that Kemp is going to be so cheap for his production and under our control for awhile.

2007-09-26 17:14:31
567.   trainwreck
565
You think Granderson is worse than Pierre?
2007-09-26 17:15:06
568.   Jon Weisman
New post up top, Eric.
2007-09-26 17:15:26
569.   Frip
Colleti: "I will not trade [the kids] for a chance to win for one year. But for a chance to win for many years? I'd do it in a heartbeat."

For a former PR guy he's completely tone deaf. No feel for how he comes across. "I'd do it in a heartbeat". I can't think of a better phrase to use if you want your (young) players to feel like they're nothing but objects and un-cared about. Way to build unity and team spirit you buffoon. Go wash cars.

Right or wrong, at the very least, this was a completely unnecessary way to put it. Especially right now.

2007-09-26 17:16:30
570.   Eric Enders
Would Kemp for Verlander be a fairly even trade? (Notwithstanding that it doesn't meet either team's needs.)
2007-09-26 17:16:40
571.   Howard Fox
no, but Pierre aint sitting as long as Coletti is here
2007-09-26 17:16:51
572.   Eric Enders
568 !!!
2007-09-26 17:17:16
573.   trainwreck
Granderson's numbers

.301/.358/.554

WARP 9.6
EQA .315
VORP 63.9

For a cheap 26 year old center fielder.

2007-09-26 17:24:09
574.   Gen3Blue
Does anyone stop to consider why Kershaw is mentioned in so many trade scenarios?
2007-09-27 01:00:17
575.   thinkblue0
jumping in way late here...

but if we actually did deal Kemp I don't know what I'd do...if it was for Cabrera then fine...but that isn't going to happen.

I can't believe that everyone on this board seems to understand what moves to make than the guy who is actually GM. I'm not saying this because we're out of it....it's just common sense.

Why wouldn't you just go with a Kemp, Pierre, Eithier outfield the whole year? Why not start Loney at first all year? It's baffling.

Next year, some serious changes need to be made i.e. Nomar's gotta go, Kent's gotta go, Gonzo has gotta go, and we need to finally show some faith in these players.

Each one of our young guys showed this year that they could play at the big league level. If we have to endure another offseason of Gonzo signings and Kent's mouth I'm not going to want to go to a single game.

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