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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

At Their Mercy
2007-10-10 09:02
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Tony Jackson of the Daily News starts speculating about the Dodgers' offseason plans today. I'm still not ready.

I'm feeling a little fatalistic these days and disinclined to agonize over what the Dodgers should and shouldn't do. While there are nuances to any individual moves, in general the approach the Dodgers should take seems so obvious, and has been discussed here so many times, I don't really feel like belaboring it. They either get it or they don't.

This is a critical offseason. The Dodgers, despite their missteps, have a strong core to build upon. At the same time, the National League West has clearly been strengthening as well. The temptations that have waylaid the Dodgers in the past will reemerge, and the main consolation is the hope that somehow, some way, the right lessons from 2007 will have been learned, and not the wrong ones.

* * *

In this MILB.com story about Jonathan Meloan being named the minor leagues' AA reliever of the year, Dodgers' minor league pitching coordinator doesn't rule out Meloan starting in the majors at some point.

"Jon is extremely strong and aggressive on the mound, and a lot of us in the organization felt that he would get to the big leagues faster if he was in the bullpen." ...

Still, Reed won't rule out a return to the rotation for the burly righty, saying that while his best long-term projections are as a reliever, he has the ability and flexibility to become a successful starter.

"I wouldn't rule out him going back [to starting]," Reed said. "There were many times this season where it looked like Jon could have helped out the big club right away. Where a player ends up all depends on the player himself. Jonathan Broxton has the stuff to be a starter, but he's doing well in the 'pen, so why move him? Chad Billingsley is just the reverse.

"If he keeps progressing at this rate, this young man has a very good chance at a roster spot with the Dodgers come Opening Day."

* * *

The Dodgers will bid to be a host for the 2009 World Baseball Classic, according to City News Service.

* * *

Anyone who can't find the joy in the upcoming Rockies-Diamondbacks playoff series ... all I can say is, their loss. Short of the Dodgers playing for the National League Championship, this is about as fresh and interesting and entertaining a combination as the NL could have produced.

Update: Average age per plate appearance, courtesy of David Pinto at Baseball Musings.

Arizona had the third-youngest offense in baseball (age 26.5). Colorado was seventh (27.8). The Dodgers were 17th (29.6).

Comments (506)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-10 09:33:33
1.   Kevin Lewis
I completely agree, Jon. I am looking forward to this series because I have no idea what to expect from these two teams. They have played so well, and I can't wait to see the pitching match ups.
2007-10-10 09:41:04
2.   Bob Timmermann
Why in the world does the County Board of Supervisors have to give the Dodgers approval to host some WBC games?

Is it to pay for extra security? Are they worried about the Cubans stirring up trouble? (I originally typed Cubs.)

At the WBC in 2006 at Anaheim, I learned one thing. It's cold at night in March out here.

2007-10-10 09:42:40
3.   Terry A
Meloan and LaRoche could well be the guys who, at the end of the 2008 season, we'll look back upon and say, "Colletti should've played those two from the start of the season instead of signing a worn-out veteran to block them."

And despite my hatred of all things Diamondback, I'm looking forward to this NLCS. Go Rockies!

2007-10-10 09:42:53
4.   LogikReader
Humma K, I believe it was, must be particularly excited about the NLCS as he noted before the Division Series.

This really is great to see, and you would hope the Dodgers pick up a few tips from this postseason, such as, let the youngsters play and proven veteran experience gets you the magic of Roger Clemens and Mike Mussina this year.

Knowing the Dodgers destiny for mediocrity, though, I am not as optimistic as Jon is.

Is it really true that the Dodgers are going to keep Hendrickson around? As Dwight says, "You are not off to a very good start."

2007-10-10 09:43:01
5.   D4P
2
You had never been outside at night in March prior to the 2006 WBC...?
2007-10-10 09:43:50
6.   Terry A
(..."worn-out veteran*s* to block them...")
2007-10-10 09:46:49
7.   jasonungar07
"We have to go through the club player by player," Colletti said. "Some players take longer to discuss than others. There may be a position change or two, and there may be a role change or two that may need to be discussed."

Assuming Pierre is one change, who is the other..or am taking Coletti to literal..Like Pierre gets on base "an awful lot"

2007-10-10 09:47:14
8.   Jon Weisman
4 - It still makes no sense to me, even from a Colletti persepective, that Hendrickson will get over $3 million to be the worst pitcher on the staff. Last year, Colletti still had hope for him. I don't see that he does now. I won't believe Hendrickson is coming back until I see it.

By the way, how was my post optimistic?

2007-10-10 09:49:24
9.   LogikReader
8

I was being sarcastic.

2007-10-10 09:50:38
10.   LogikReader
and...

You did mention the Dodgers have a strong core to build upon. And I believe you held out hope that "somehow, some way, the right lessons from 2007 will have been learned, and not the wrong ones."

I thought that was optimistic.

2007-10-10 09:50:54
11.   D4P
Last year, Colletti still had hope for him. I don't see that he does now

Less than 2 years ago, Colletti infamously referred to Hendrickson as a top-10 lefty in the American League. It's not completely unreasonable to think that Ned still thinks highly of him.

2007-10-10 09:52:15
12.   jasonungar07
I didn't take you as positive at all. Opposite in fact. It seems like you are putting your hands over your eyes when watching a scary part of a movie.

But peeking.

I agree about Henderickson, by dumb luck we could do better then him.

2007-10-10 09:52:24
13.   bhsportsguy
8 Let's just hope that they find a few other options on the 40 man roster.
2007-10-10 09:53:54
14.   bhsportsguy
I will say this, if the off-season goes by and the kids are all here come opening day, than can we at least stop worrying about that?
2007-10-10 09:55:20
15.   Jon Weisman
11 - It's not completely unreasonable, but consider what Hendrickson's numbers were when he made that quote and what they are now. It's more reasonable to think, given that Colletti cut Tomko, that his opinion can and will change.
2007-10-10 09:55:42
16.   Marty
I'm rooting for a World Series in late October in Denver. That could be interesting.

Of course, Denver has no corner on "lousy weather in October" department. Boston and Cleveland can get pretty nasty too.

2007-10-10 09:57:15
17.   Marty
14 If the off-season goes by and half the kids are gone, we can also stop worrying about it.
2007-10-10 09:57:16
18.   JoeyP
7--What positions changes does anyone see?

Pierre in LF is the only thing I can think of.

2007-10-10 09:57:58
19.   D4P
Speaking of lousy weather in October: it was in the low 90s here the past two days, including a high of 94 yesterday.
2007-10-10 10:03:06
20.   Jon Weisman
18 - Delwyn Young to emergency catcher!
2007-10-10 10:04:18
21.   JoeyP
Jonathan Broxton has the stuff to be a starter, but he's doing well in the 'pen, so why move him? Chad Billingsley is just the reverse.

Didnt Billingsley pitch really real in the bullpen also though?

Maybe, just maybe good pitchers pitch good no matter where they are inserted because they are in fact "good".

Broxton/Billingsley/Penny/Kershaw/McDonald would be a very high upside rotation for around June of 2008. Trade Lowe this off-season, Expect nothing from Schmidt/Loaiza, and put the 3 kids into the rotation by the end of May.

2007-10-10 10:11:11
22.   Wilbert Robinson
(answering my own question from the previous post) well I just found out that the AFL will be televised live on mlb.com starting 11/5.
2007-10-10 10:11:45
23.   Bob Timmermann
Elsewhere on Baseball Toaster:

"So now we are left with a TBS nightmare in the NLCS—two expansion teams from the middle of nowhere that no one really cares much about"

2007-10-10 10:13:58
24.   Connector
11 15
My major gripe with Hendrickson was that he pitched without feeling, like a guy who 'went through the motions' at a job he hated
2007-10-10 10:15:14
25.   Andrew Shimmin
Colletti's overarching philosophy of general management is that there's no such thing as too much. Five on five CFs versus the shortstops games in 2006? Rock on. Three or more first basemen on the 25 man roster for most of the 2007 season? Sounds like a plan. Lucille II, Wilson Valdez, and Tony Abreu (Abreu has legitimate hope of being much better, but I think he more or less belonged in this class, this year)? We can give that a go. Especially with pitching, all Colletti wants is more.
2007-10-10 10:15:40
26.   D4P
23
TBS: An expansion network in the middle of channel lineup nowhere that no one really cares much about.

Irony...?

2007-10-10 10:17:05
27.   Connector
23 Whoever said that is making conclusions without any basis in fact.
2007-10-10 10:17:43
28.   kinbote
18 laroche or nomar to 2b?

(& El Lay Dave--you're right about the "little ball" comment. i should have left that out. i was going for something, but nevermind.)

2007-10-10 10:18:30
29.   regfairfield
21 Broxton's stuff moved from good to absurd when he went to the pen. He likely won't be nearly as effective as a starter. Plus consider that he got gassed after about 70 innings last year and has never thrown more than 128 at any point.

Broxton is far more valuable as a vicious reliever than as a guy with a mid fours ERA as a starter.

2007-10-10 10:22:45
30.   Andrew Shimmin
Is Meloan the one who has a "max-effort" delivery or is he the one who was unjustly accused of having one, causing much tooth gnashing here?
2007-10-10 10:23:44
31.   underdog
23 I couldn't resist responding to him, against my better judgment.

It's just your typical bitter east coast bias rearing its head again.

2007-10-10 10:29:58
32.   Marty
Tony Jackson is always saying Billingsley has a "maximum effort" delivery.
2007-10-10 10:34:45
33.   silverwidow
32 - TJ always says Billingsley throws too many pitches. I believe it was Gurnick who referred to Chad's supposed "max effort" delievery.
2007-10-10 10:35:25
34.   regfairfield
How can you look at someone like Lincecum and then say that Chad has a max effort delivery?
2007-10-10 10:39:57
35.   Daniel Zappala
At the WBC in 2006 at Anaheim, I learned one thing. It's cold at night in March out here.

I scoff in your general direction.

2007-10-10 10:51:12
36.   Bob Timmermann
35
How about this:

In Southern California, night baseball games in March will not be a pleasant experience for regular inhabitants of the area.

2007-10-10 10:55:15
37.   Daniel Zappala
36 That's better. :-) No matter the time of year, when we visit LA my kids pack mostly short sleeves and shorts, and pretty much ignore the coat we packed "just in case".
2007-10-10 10:57:08
38.   Linkmeister
31 I snarled back too, even resorting to quoting GHW Bush.
2007-10-10 10:58:59
39.   FirstMohican
21 - I think he's saying Chad's the reverse in that he's doing so well as a starter, why change that, not he did so poorly in the pen, that a change to the rotation is necessary.
2007-10-10 11:00:05
40.   D4P
38
"Not gonna declare the series a 'TBS nightmare' at this juncture. Wouldn't be prudent."
2007-10-10 11:00:59
41.   Bob Timmermann
But would I be insane to plan a trip to Germany in January?
2007-10-10 11:04:56
42.   old dodger fan
I don't think many East Coasters will turn on a Rockies-D'Backs game that starts at 10 pm. I expect games 2 and 4 will have really bad East Coast ratings. On top of that game 4 will be competing with the 2nd half of MNF.
2007-10-10 11:06:16
43.   be2ween
3 Hatred of all things D-Back? There's a thread right there! The Byrnes factor - please God, don't give him a ring. The 6 or 7 logos. And what COLOR IS that jersey?
Let's Go Rah-kies!
Let's Go Rah-kies!
2007-10-10 11:06:32
44.   jasonungar07
Is anyone going to Bruce Springsteen here in LA at the end of the month?
2007-10-10 11:13:37
45.   Bob Timmermann
43
The Rockies do wear purple.

That has to count against them.

2007-10-10 11:19:45
46.   Daniel Zappala
41 Snow is nothing to be afraid of. If you're in a big city, other people clear it away for you, or (especially in Europe) you take public transport anyway. If you're out in the wilderness, you can ski on it.
2007-10-10 11:22:12
47.   underdog
I think we can definitely mock both teams' uniforms, regardless of how you feel otherwise - that's fair game!
2007-10-10 11:22:17
48.   Daniel Zappala
42 I don't think many east coasters would turn on the NLCS even if it started at Just The Right Time. I think this degrades their status as True Baseball Fans.
2007-10-10 11:22:49
49.   bhsportsguy
42 If the Dodgers were playing the Milwaukee Brewers would the ratings be any different?

When the Lakers and Suns play those 10:30 playoff games on TNT, do they grab much of an audience?

The only sport that gets a decent rating for its post season is the NFL, why, they play on weekends, its one and your done and people bet on the games.

I'm annoyed that I probably won't see a lot of the AL Series, but its more the time slot then the teams playing that will affect TBS's rating.

2007-10-10 11:23:32
50.   D4P
But would I be insane to plan a trip to Germany in January?

Only if it means not going to Mac Court for a Duck basketball game.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-10 11:31:07
51.   Dark Horse
It's funny, I can't hate this year's Dbacks, even though I loathed the '01 squad, nor can I hate the Rockies even though they drove a spike through my heart this year: Helton's dinger off Saito was the death blow. Yet they're so obviously the better team (than ours, I mean) and as for the Dbacks, well, Orlando Hudson wins me over. Both teams' futures scare me--this'll be a tough division for a while--but unlike the Padres and the Jints, whom I detest on principle, I find every team in the postseason this year wildly charismatic.

Except the Red Sox, of course. They're now as despicable to me as the Yankees. A Rox/Indians Series would be something. I can imagine Carmona and Jimenez locking horns in a Smoltz/Morris type duel...

2007-10-10 11:32:57
52.   old dodger fan
49 "The only sport that gets a decent rating for its post season is the NFL, why, they play on weekends, its one and your done and people bet on the games."

I assume you mean pro sports because College Basketball and Football do OK.

2007-10-10 11:33:14
53.   natepurcell
should the dodgers non tender tsao?
2007-10-10 11:37:02
54.   Bob Timmermann
52
College basketball's postseason ratings have been dropping every year.

Except in the Billy Packer ratings.

But Billy is insane.

And someone at work thinks he's insane too and tells me that every time he sees me.

It's a whole creepy circle of Billy Packer insanity.

2007-10-10 11:37:57
55.   Daniel Zappala
53 What's the alternative? How much would he cost and can they stash him in the minor leagues?
2007-10-10 11:39:57
56.   bhsportsguy
55 He's on the 40 man roster, I think that is the issue.
2007-10-10 11:44:53
57.   Humma Kavula
4 Indeed, this series is making me rethink my hatreds. I used to be The Guy Who Hated the Rockies. And there are still lots of things that annoy me about them. But this year's Rockies (and D-Backs for that matter) are pretty much being run the way I wish the Dodgers were being run. How can I hate that? My heart isn't really in it. I need to find a new National League team to hate.

The problem is -- who? The Giants are too easy. The Padres are too trendy. The Marlins, Nationals, Reds, and Pirates are too bad. The Phillies or Cubs would be an option, but they've been so bad for so long that it kind of seems pointless. The Brewers are too exciting. The Braves are too boring. Bob has cornered the market on the Cardinals.

That leaves the Astros and the Mets. I'll put it up to a vote: Who do I hate?

2007-10-10 11:46:41
58.   Bob Timmermann
57
The Mets.

It's a no-brainer.

I'm just surprised you hated the Rockies.

2007-10-10 11:47:17
59.   Humma Kavula
58 Somebody had to hate the Rockies. Nobody else was doing it, so I filled the void.
2007-10-10 11:48:06
60.   CajunDodger
56
I would resign him if the price is <$1 million. Otherwise, I would take a pass on the healthcare bill and MRIs he will need.

Then San Diego will pick him up and he will proceed to go 85 innings with a 2.35 ERA and a 1.07 WHIP.

2007-10-10 11:48:21
61.   fanerman
I don't like the D-Backs. I want a Cleveland/Colorado WS.

I don't hate the Red Sox. I love Manny too much. And they're managed well ("moneyball" except with the huge payroll). Sure they're ESPN's darling, but that's not all their fault.

2007-10-10 11:49:08
62.   CajunDodger
58
Hating the Rockies to me is like hating the Reds...up until now I hardly noticed them.
2007-10-10 11:50:13
63.   caseybarker
I always liked the Mets because my best friend was a fan. Of course, that was the Mets of Kieth Hernandez, Howard Johnson, Ron Darling, etc...

I could hate the Mets the way they're comprised now.

2007-10-10 11:50:58
64.   Eric Stephen
53 ,56 I think it depends entirely on his health. I would guess he'd make between $500-$800k in arbitration, which really isn't that much more than the minimum.

If he's healthy, ready to pitch by May at the latest, and they can determine this by December, I would offer him arbitration.

Right now the back of the bullpen will be:

Saito
Broxton
Beimel (arb)
Proctor (arb)

The other 2-3 spots figure to be filled by a combo of Brazoban (another key decision), Tsao, Meloan, plus a long man or two that may or may not be acquired.

2007-10-10 11:52:26
65.   CajunDodger
61
I have thought that Theo managed them adequately. The Drew, Lugo, and Gagne signings have been disasters and Daisuke is merely OK for Zambrano money. I would give him a C+ or a B- in signings, but his team sure is executing well at the right time...
2007-10-10 11:52:28
66.   old dodger fan
I don't hate any teams except the Yankees unless we expand the field to include the NFL and NBA. The list then grows.
2007-10-10 11:53:34
67.   Bob Timmermann
62
Hating the Reds used to be a very common thing for Dodgers fans in the 1970s.
2007-10-10 11:53:50
68.   Jacob L
62 Hating the Reds was serious business back in the day.

61 I hear ya, but I'm starting to question the whole "Red Sox" are managed well theme. Keeping Manny and David around seems like a no-brainer (and much props to Theo for getting David in the first place). On the other side of the ledger, they've let an awful lot of young talent slip through their fingers (Hanley, Freddy Sanchez). They played musical chairs and shortstop and found themselves with Julio Lugo when the music stopped.

2007-10-10 11:55:26
69.   Robert Daeley
Hated teams in order of hatedness:

1. Giants (the ur-hate)
2. Padres (developed this year)
3. Yankees

Disliked teams:
1. Mets (may move to hated list)
2. Diamondbacks
3. Rockies

Favorite teams:

1. Dodgers
2. Whoever's playing the Giants

2007-10-10 11:59:21
70.   Jacob L
63 Boy, I think most people would find the mid 80s Mets to be more "hate-able" than the current version. The arrogance. The coke. The clubhouse tension. There was a book claiming that they were the most motley crew (crue?) to win a championship, which is saying something given the 70s As won three of them.

The only thing I see to hate about the current Mets is the over-hype for Minaya, and his All Star Team approach to assembling a roster.

2007-10-10 12:02:49
71.   Bob Timmermann
70
I find the Mets to have the most loathsome fans.
2007-10-10 12:04:10
72.   D4P
Hating the Reds used to be a very common thing for Dodgers fans in the 1970s

And the 80s, along with most of the other members of the old NL West.

2007-10-10 12:04:36
73.   old dodger fan
71 I have been to 12 MLB stadiums and my vote goes to the Phillies.
2007-10-10 12:14:08
74.   Eric Enders
71 My feeling is pretty much the opposite. Mets fans are great. They're the antidote to Yankees fans, too. If you live in New York and you're basically a decent human being, you are a Mets fan. If you're a scum-sucking waste of space, you're a Yankee fan. There are a few, but only a few, exceptions to this rule.

The worst fans were Giants fans during the Candlestick days. Complete animals. But since Phone Co. Park opened that crowd has become pretty gentrified and laid-back.

At least Giants fans care. The fans I dislike the most are the ones who generally just don't give a hoot, like Braves and Diamondbacks fans.

2007-10-10 12:17:50
75.   Humma Kavula
Of course, I left out one team among the teams I could hate in 57 .

And when Matt Kemp is traded for a middle reliever, things might be a little clearer.

2007-10-10 12:18:46
76.   KG16
70 - the coke actually made the Mets easier to like... or so I'm told.

There really isn't a team that I hate in baseball, anymore. Sometimes I think I've evolved beyond hate, and then I am reminded of the Utah Jazz and the San Antonio Spurs.

Maybe if the trend of home grown talents sticks for a while and rosters stay a bit more constant, I can find a team to loath... hope spring eternal.

2007-10-10 12:19:14
77.   Humma Kavula
Here's a real-life question:

I work in Culver City. I need to be in Northridge at 7:15.

What time do I need to leave Culver? Do I have any choice but to take the 405? Will Sepulveda be any better?

2007-10-10 12:21:09
78.   D4P
The worst fans were Giants fans during the Candlestick days

I saw my first career MLB game (at the age of 9) at Candlestick. Giants fans dumped beer on me.

2007-10-10 12:27:46
79.   Bob Timmermann
77
If you leave at 5:45 and take the 405, you will get Northridge with time to spare. You could probably leave at 6 and have time to spare.

Sepulveda would not be a better alternative unless a tanker truck explodes on the freeway.

Then I suggest ducking.

2007-10-10 12:28:15
80.   jasonungar07
For what it's worth I threw up all over 4 Giants fans in Candlestick. They were middle aged Asian couples. Chan Ho was pitching. That's all I remember. That was in my CHICO road trip days. I was hazed because I was the only dodger fan among the crowd of us in the town car we rented. Total Animal House.
2007-10-10 12:31:27
81.   D4P
Total Animal House

Except, your story has greater-than-zero humor.

2007-10-10 12:32:36
82.   Bob Timmermann
74
Mets fans have referred to my late father with profanities despite never meeting him. Mets fans have told me that L.A. is not a sports town and Mets fans always stay to the bitter end of every game (except for this year apparently).

They've sworn at me for no good reason.

They all seem to hate themselves.

I can deal with Yankee fans much easier.

2007-10-10 12:33:01
83.   underdog
74 I know too many great Yankee fans and obnoxious Mets fans to even comment on that, except to say it's a massive generality.
2007-10-10 12:33:21
84.   jasonungar07
80 Oh and if that was at Dodger Staidum or Jack Murphy I would have been ashamed and embarrassed. Because it was at Candlestick and the crap I had to endure over 4 years of college in the Bay Area (and going to Giant games or cruising campus in Blue) it's like a badge of honor. Like I was a freedom fighter or something. I really didn't mean it, it was one of those that just sorta hits you when you drink to fast or smell Heineken or something...
2007-10-10 12:35:33
85.   D4P
82
Which team's fans threw rubber balls at your neck...?
2007-10-10 12:36:33
86.   Bob Timmermann
85
Those were my pals in the RF pavilion at Dodger Stadium!

I think they didn't like my Team South Africa cap.

2007-10-10 12:40:14
87.   Penarol1916
74. How can you hate fans who don't give a hoot and not mention Cubs "fans" at Wrigley. I've been to games in most every stadium, and in only have I ever been asked the following:
"What happened?"
"What is the score?"
"Who are we playing?"
"Which team is hitting?"
And it was not in Atlanta or Arizona.
2007-10-10 12:40:28
88.   D4P
I just read that the earth has not only been found to be getting hotter, but also more humid.

Thanks, earth. You big jerk.

2007-10-10 12:40:39
89.   Eric Enders
83 Yes it is a massive generality. When you're discussing which team's fans are better than others, the whole conversation consists of massive generalities.
2007-10-10 12:41:18
90.   regfairfield
I'm proud to say that I've only been hit with an empty beer cup at Dodger Stadium.

People weren't happy that I dumped the beach ball over the railing twice.

2007-10-10 12:46:25
91.   Eric Enders
90 Which mostly just proves that Dodger fans have the best aim!
2007-10-10 12:47:17
92.   silverwidow
64 I don't see Meloan starting the year in L.A. He's probably in for at least 1/2 season in Vegas.
2007-10-10 12:48:41
93.   ToyCannon
I've been hit with a fist at Dodger Stadium. Things were rough in 75.
2007-10-10 12:51:43
94.   silverwidow
From last year's BA Top 10 with my guesses on where they'll start:

1. ANDY LAROCHE - Vegas
2. CLAYTON KERSHAW - Jacksonville
3. SCOTT ELBERT - Jacksonville
4. JAMES LONEY - L.A.
5. TONY ABREU - L.A.
6. IVAN DEJESUS JR - Jacksonville
7. JONATHAN MELOAN - Vegas
8. BLAKE DEWITT - Jacksonville
9. JOSH BELL - Inland Empire
10. PRESTON MATTINGLY - Great Lakes

2007-10-10 12:54:12
95.   Disabled List
74 Mets fans are baseball's version of Raiders fans. I've seen Dodger games in six ballparks outside of LA. Only at Shea have I ever been threatened, verbally abused, and subjected to flying projectiles.

I do, however, have a couple of friends who are Mets fans, and they're good folks. But we're speaking in generalities here, right?

2007-10-10 12:55:08
96.   D4P
But we're speaking in generalities here, right?

For the most part.

2007-10-10 12:58:43
97.   Sospiro0
Considering a Dodger fan stabbed a Giants fan, you could argue that we have the worst fans....though getting beer dumped on your head might be a close second
2007-10-10 13:00:23
98.   Bob Timmermann
97
Jon has written about that incident and I believe that the team allegiances didn't play much of a part in the tragedy.
2007-10-10 13:01:03
99.   Disabled List
97 The stabbing was an isolated incident, but yeah, the behavior I've seen recently in the stands at Dodger Stadium has not done in much for our reputation as fans.

Generally speaking.

2007-10-10 13:01:45
100.   LogikReader
One of my Giant Fan Friends (yea I know...) thinks of Dodger Fans as Raider-fan like as well. He might have a point, but I don't think it's that bad yet.

---

Apology time

1. Jon, I didn't mean to misinterpret your post... sounds like we're all on the same page today, meaning we're on pins and needles.
2. I apologize for not doing my homework on the Griffey transaction last night. It was in fact a trade, and Mike Cameron was among those traded back to Seattle. No wonder the Reds went into the tank.
3. I apologize on behalf of all Dodger fans if you are a fan of another team and you took any junk from "fans" at the Ravine. It's embarrassing and I want you to know most of us are not like that.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-10 13:03:08
101.   old dodger fan
I have been to Shea 4 or 5 times and was never treated rudely but I don't think I ever wore any Dodger paraphanalia. Fans seemed pretty well behaved.

I did wear a Dodger cap at Turner Field (2003 I think) and just got some mild ribbing when the Braves took an early lead. No one said much when the Dodgers rallied and won the game. It seemed like a pretty mild group.

2007-10-10 13:08:32
102.   Sospiro0
Yeha, its not fan allegiance when gangs adopt sports teams as their signs--a la Raiders....

Surprised nobody has mentioned it but my best park experience was in Kansas City. They were playing the A's. Everyone around me was incredibly nice and enjoyed honest fun baseball discussions.

2007-10-10 13:08:49
103.   Sospiro0
Yeah, it's not fan allegiance when gangs adopt sports teams as their signs--a la Raiders....

Surprised nobody has mentioned it but my best park experience was in Kansas City. They were playing the A's. Everyone around me was incredibly nice and enjoyed honest fun baseball discussions.

2007-10-10 13:09:29
104.   Bumsrap
c Martin----a keeper
1b Loney-----a keeper
2b Kent or Abreu--proven vs. unproven, slow vs. fast
3b Nomar or LaRoche, fragile vs fragile, known vs unknown
ss Furcal or Hu--Hu could use another year
lf Young/Ethier/Peirre--wanted vs unwanted, doubles vs speed
cf Kemp/Peirre/AROD--no comment needed
rf Kemp/Ethier--no ceiling vs ceiling

Plenty of pitching depth

Schmidt--
Penny
Lowe
Billingsley
Kuo
McDonald
Kershaw
Miller
Broxton
Meloan
Elbert

Saito
Brazabon
Beimel (arb)
Proctor (arb)
Tsao
Hull
Houlton
Stults
Megrew

2007-10-10 13:13:28
105.   fanerman
104 You forgot Hendrickson.
2007-10-10 13:14:32
106.   Bumsrap
How quickly we forget
2007-10-10 13:16:49
107.   Jon Weisman
100 - No apology to me needed at all.
2007-10-10 13:19:26
108.   Bumsrap
Between Nomar and LaRoche, I prefer Ian Stewart (Colorado).

Between Kent and Abreu, I prefer Ian Kinsler, Ian (Texas)

Between Pierre, Ethier, and Young, I prefer Young and Ethier.

Between AROD, Kemp, and Pierre for cf, I prefer AROD.

Between Kemp and Ethier in rf, I prefer Kemp.

2007-10-10 13:19:28
109.   LogikReader
107

Ah, then I apologize for apologizing ;)

Jon your writing is carrying me through this long Wednesday. Are you on the ARONs club too?

2007-10-10 13:19:54
110.   Sospiro0
One of the employees in Kansas City even game me a brief history of the Negro Leagues....
2007-10-10 13:20:29
111.   trainwreck
In response to a comment by TC in the last thread about A-Rod and Tigers.

When I made my first guesses late in the year on where A-Rod would end up, I had the Tigers in second behind the Yankees. I can't remember who I had third.

2007-10-10 13:21:51
112.   trainwreck
108
You want to trade for Ian Stewart instead of giving LaRoche the job?
2007-10-10 13:22:35
113.   Bumsrap
112- Yes
2007-10-10 13:24:32
114.   Sospiro0
110 ugh, the spelling errors are killing me.

*gave

2007-10-10 13:24:55
115.   trainwreck
Hasn't Ian Stewart been dropping in prospect rankings? And what makes him more proven than LaRoche?
2007-10-10 13:26:43
116.   Jon Weisman
109 - Um, I guess. Can't think of another outside alternative I like. Expecting him to play for the Yankees next year, though.
2007-10-10 13:28:43
117.   Bumsrap
Steware supposedly has a higher ceiling than does Colorado's Atkins and other than my never getting behind LaRoche, Stewart is probably more durable.
2007-10-10 13:32:30
118.   silverwidow
Between AROD, Kemp, and Pierre for cf, I prefer AROD.

A-Rod doesn't play CF. I don't get this idea.

2007-10-10 13:33:30
119.   Humma Kavula
116 I think most rational people expect Cashman to give A-Rod whatever he wants. There's just too much at stake for both the Yankees and A-Rod to let that fall apart; a deal makes so much sense for both sides.

What ARONS is about isn't so much A-Rod -- it's about not wasting money on big contracts for veterans that will provide no improvement, but being perfectly willing to make room for one of the best players in baseball if all you have to give up is money.

2007-10-10 13:37:39
120.   Bumsrap
118 - Think outside the box with me. Centerfield has long been a glamorous position when played by a star ie, Snider, Mays, Mantle, Dimagio, etc.
2007-10-10 13:38:19
121.   regfairfield
117 I don't think anyone has put Stewart ahead of Atkins over the last two years. What's so appealing about him?
2007-10-10 13:39:14
122.   Jon Weisman
119 - Well, I don't think there should be much mystery about how I feel about that, right?
2007-10-10 13:40:34
123.   trainwreck
The thought that moving Pierre to left field helps makes no sense to me.

It is like getting a tattoo of your current girlfriend's name then realizing that your relationship is terrible so you decide to dump sulfuric acid on your skin to make it go away.

2007-10-10 13:41:26
124.   old dodger fan
120 Cobb
2007-10-10 13:42:38
125.   Eric Enders
Wanting Ian Stewart is truly an example of the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. There is no reason at all to believe he'd be better than LaRoche, and plenty of reasons to believe he'd be worse. LaRoche's minor league performances have been better than Stewart's, his major league performances have been better than Stewart's, his defense is better than Stewart's, and he's rated more highly in Baseball America's prospect rankings than Stewart is.
2007-10-10 13:46:02
126.   bhsportsguy
[117} And note that Baseball America is reporting that Ian Stewart may try to shift from third base to second next year.

Ian Stewart's 2007 splits (over 220 PA each)
Home Games .357/.431/.580 (Colorado Springs)
Away Games .251/.325/.377

Andy LaRoche's 2007 splits (Twice as many PA at home)
.325/.421/.608 (Las Vegas)
.283/.362/.556

2007-10-10 13:47:25
127.   trainwreck
I am really worried we are going to bring in an outfielder and waste a ton of money and a roster space.
2007-10-10 13:48:32
128.   fanerman
123 If an OF of:
LF-Pierre, CF-Kemp, RF-Ethier is better defensively than LF-Ethier, CF-Pierre, RF-Kemp, then fine. Might as well make the switch. Sure it just means Pierre is BY FAR the worst left fielder in the majors, but if we have to play him and we get a defensive upgrade without an offensive downgrade, fine.

But, moving Pierre to LF seems like making room for a free agent CF (Torii/Andruw/Aaron, I guess). I'm not so on-board with that idea. Those guys are barely better offensively than Ethier. Is the defensive upgrade and the ability to trade Ethier worth $15 million (or maybe more)?

2007-10-10 13:51:33
129.   D4P
I am really worried we are going to bring in an outfielder and waste a ton of money and a roster space

Nothing like responding to the problem of wasting a ton of money and roster space on one outfielder by wasting a ton of money and roster space on another outfielder.

2007-10-10 13:52:15
130.   trainwreck
128
I am expecting option 2.
2007-10-10 13:53:17
131.   trainwreck
We rarely played Kemp in center when we had the chance, so I do not expect us to move him there now.
2007-10-10 13:53:51
132.   Bumsrap
Born in Long Beach, hits left throws right. Has power. No injuries. Is maybe available because Adkins and Helton are blocking him.
2007-10-10 13:55:16
133.   Linkmeister
I happened to see Olney talking about the ARod sweepstakes last night. One of the teams he mentioned was the Dodgers, because (paraphrasing) "they've lost a share of their market to the Angels and need a boost."

Um. What was the attendance this year? 3.8 million?

Political journalists don't have a lock on stupidity.

2007-10-10 13:57:09
134.   regfairfield
132 He doesn't have power. He plays in a massive launching pad and can't hit worth beans on the road. The only thing he has on LaRoche is that he's a lefty and he doesn't have an injury history.
2007-10-10 13:59:34
135.   Bob Timmermann
124
Cobb got his start as a right fielder, but did play the majority of his games in center.

Eventually Cobb and Sam Crawford swapped positions.

2007-10-10 14:03:34
136.   Jon Weisman
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023530.php

Average age per plate appearance in MLB.

2007-10-10 14:05:05
137.   Bumsrap
Moving Pierre from center to left is like trying to solve a problem by building more cemetaries.

Ian Stewart is one of an organizations top prospects and as top prospects go, they are generally not available. Stewart might be one of the few top prospects that is available. If LaRoche were to get the injury cloud from above his head I would be willing to promote from within.

2007-10-10 14:07:46
138.   delias man
Why is everyone so sold on Either? He is a nice player, but no real potential all-star, or big time player.

I want big-time players. FA OF is ok with me. Kemp has potential for greatness. I would take Hunter/Jones over Ethier any day. Even if people think both are overrated.

2007-10-10 14:11:30
139.   D4P
Why is everyone so sold on Hunter Jones? He is a nice player, but no real potential all-star, or big time player.
2007-10-10 14:13:18
140.   Icaros
Why are people so quick to label LaRoche a terminal injury case? Has he had any health problems before this season?

As bad as LaRoche's back issues may sound, remember that Vlad Guerrero's value went down quite a bit his free agent year because he supposedly had crippling and eternal back issues.

That seemed to not end up being much of an issue.

2007-10-10 14:13:48
141.   Icaros
Why why why?!?
2007-10-10 14:16:01
142.   LogikReader
Marcia Marcia Marcia!
2007-10-10 14:18:19
143.   Humma Kavula
Judy! Judy! Judy!
2007-10-10 14:21:06
144.   still bevens
140 Remember he had that shoulder surgery last year?
2007-10-10 14:24:00
145.   Kevin Lewis
I have seen someone kicked out at every Dodger/Giants game I have been to at Chavez.

My best fan experience at another ball park was in St Louis. I wore my Dodger cap, and I had no problems. Of course, that was when Odalis imploded and we lost by double digits (or close to it).

Oh, and what is up with people wearing a team jersey to a game when that team is not playing? I see this all the time in LA. People come to a Dodgers/Padres game wearing an Astros' jersey. Are they trying to show that they just really love baseball?

2007-10-10 14:24:11
146.   delias man
Dodgers need power. Bottom line. You can't win without it. For 2008, it is only coming by free agency. I dont see any potential bats coming by trade.
2007-10-10 14:26:28
147.   wronghanded
Some of the logic here in moving Pierre to left really confuses me. He may be the worst left-fielder in terms of production but who cares? We would be upgrading defensively (which was a huge problem this year) and at the same time attaining a CF that gives you corner OF production. Don't compare Pierre to other LFs compare him to Pierre in CF, the same Pierre that teams take a hyper-aggressive baserunning approach on. We are stuck with Pierre whether we like it or not so why not minimize his shortcomings? If we can't sign Hunter, Jones or Rowand to a 4 year contract or less then I'm not for it, but if we can get one of them for that period of time then I'm all for it. Keeping Pierre in CF just because he doesn't produce like most other corner OFs just doesn't make any sense to me, its about improving the Dodgers, not about saying "oh yeah, well my team's LF outproduced your team's LF."
2007-10-10 14:31:15
148.   Robert Daeley
140 144 Coincidentally, I was at the 51s game when LaRoche injured his shoulder. I'm no doctor, but I believe that shoulder injury to have been totally circumstantial, not due to some predisposition of LaRoche's.

Joel Guzman was still on the team then, got booed heartily for walking into the opposing catcher rather than challenging him. Cesar Izturis was on a rehab assignment too.

2007-10-10 14:33:32
149.   Jon Weisman
148 -

To quote last night's "House":

House: Hey, Wilson! Want to see me remove the eye from a cancer patient?

Wilson: Good times ...

2007-10-10 14:36:23
150.   bhsportsguy
If we have this lineup for the majority of the year (I know we will have assorted pitchers and back up guys) but the core group average will be 27.75:
Martin, Loney, Kent, Furcal, LaRoche, Ethier, Pierre, and Kemp.

If Nomar is tossed in for LaRoche, the age goes up to 29.

If Abreu comes in for Kent, the average drops to 2 years.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-10 14:38:58
151.   fanerman
130 Yes, me, too. I'm a little frightened.

147 Of course it's a defensive upgrade. But, remember, we're not replacing Pierre's offensive contribution with free agent CF. We're replacing Ethier's. That's why we think about our left-fielder's production.

Ethier last 2 seasons: 113, 104

Hunter last 4 seasons: 105, 107, 112, 120
Jones last 4 seasons: 113, 133, 129, 88
Rowand last 4 seasons: 126, 93, 87, 125

How big of an upgrade is either 3 over Ethier? For $15 million?

2007-10-10 14:39:30
152.   fanerman
151 Those numbers are OPS+.
2007-10-10 14:47:21
153.   wronghanded
151 I understand we need to compare the free-agent CFs to Ethier, but we are also losing quite a bit of payroll this year (especially if Kent retires), Gonzalez's money alone takes care of half of that new contract, so why not upgrade our team?
2007-10-10 14:48:08
154.   alex 7
As has been stated many times before, Martin, Loney, Kent, LaRoche, Ethier and Kemp can each give us 30 doubles and 20 HRs over a full season. That's enough power to win if you pitch well.

Kemp could/should hit 30+. Most of those guys should have a (your choice) .280 to .300 BA, .360 OBP, .830+ OPS.

Power will be adequate (much like it was in 2006). ARod or a #3 type arm is all L.A. should look for unless they can include Pierre in a deal to upgrade CF.

2007-10-10 14:48:19
155.   wronghanded
Plus all 3 of those guys have the potential to hit for more power than Ethier.
2007-10-10 14:48:21
156.   Michael D
147

The problem with Juan Pierre in left is that the minute he touches left field he should be DFA'd. Finding left fielders who hit better than Juan Pierre is about as hard as finding the breasts on Scarlett Johansson. Assuming Kemp in right, we have no less than 2 on our roster as is in Ethier and Young. Pierre in left is a tremendous waste of resources. No matter who we got in center, we'd be better off with that guy and Ethier or Young in left than we would with Pierre. That's the problem with Pierre in LF.

2007-10-10 14:53:13
157.   alex 7
whatever money we save on Gonzalez we waste on Loaiza (ERAs of 5.71, 3.77, 4.89, and 5.79 the last four years). I use ERA assuming that's what Colletti looked at.
We're paying him $8 million right?
2007-10-10 14:53:52
158.   Eric Enders
"As has been stated many times before, Martin, Loney, Kent, LaRoche, Ethier and Kemp can each give us 30 doubles and 20 HRs over a full season. That's enough power to win if you pitch well."

It's probably also enough even if your pitching is mediocre.

2007-10-10 14:54:31
159.   Humma Kavula
I'm as guilty as anyone, but the should-we-or-shouldn't-we Pierre-to-LF conversation is smacking of Rule 8 to me.

No one is convincing anyone. Some of us think it's a good idea, others think it's terrible, and there aren't any new ideas or ways of looking at it coming out.

Again, I include myself in this criticism. I've played my role in helping the discussion reach this point, but I think we should all move on. There are enough other possibilities for this offseason to discuss until there is a signing or a not-signing.

2007-10-10 14:54:44
160.   D4P
156
Finding left fielders who hit better than Juan Pierre is about as hard as finding the breasts on Scarlett Johansson

"Up here Michael, up here..."

2007-10-10 14:54:49
161.   KG16
153 - but is a guy like Hunter or Jones, entering their decline phases worth $15 mil over Ethier who is only going to be 26 and not yet in his prime? I don't think we've seen Ethier's ceiling yet, and to go after a big name guy just for the sake of getting a big name guy, is just doing what Ned did last year. Remember, Ethier has only played two seasons in the majors, he had a little drop off this year, but that's to be expected when you don't know if you're going to be playing or not, and from teams having a scouting report on him in the majors. A line of .284/.350/.452 as a sophomore slump ain't all that bad.

Why am I suddenly worried that if Kemp's numbers drop a bit next year people are going to be arguing that we should trade him for Chone Figgins or Juan Rivera?

2007-10-10 14:55:14
162.   wronghanded
156 Again, assuming we are stuck with Pierre who cares where he plays? Finding a CF that will give you better production than Pierre is about as hard as finding the breasts on Scarlett Johansson as well is it not?
2007-10-10 14:57:26
163.   fanerman
153 Because the upgrade isn't a big one, and there are better players to pursue next off-season if not this one. To me, Jones/Hunter/Rowand is not far off from the LuGo's of the world. If we're gonna pay someone $15-$20 million, let him be a real difference maker.
2007-10-10 15:00:30
164.   fanerman
162 Well, finding a CF that gives better production than Pierre is slightly harder than finding a LF, methinks.

159 Every conversation about Juan Pierre is a Rule 8 Violation.

2007-10-10 15:08:23
165.   bhsportsguy
In case anyone still needs a box score fix, Hu, DeWitt and Xavier Paul are playing in Arizona, Hu went 2-4 with a double and stolen base in yesterday's opener.

In Hawaii, Josh Bell and Steven Johnson are two of the prospects that have been playing for about a week.

Greg Miller will start in Arizona on Friday.

2007-10-10 15:11:05
166.   jasonungar07
For me the most obvious thing to do is to sign one of the FA CF and keep Ethier in LF and Kemp in RF (and then trade for a pitcher)

Or else where do we upgrade?

C-locked
1b-locked
2nd-locked (Ned hopes)
SS-locked
3b-upgrade?
RF-locked and throw away the key
CF-upgrade?
LF-Ethier

The difference on both sides of the ball by replacing our two weaker spots in 07 with a replacement level player would best be used at CF ,not 3b, given the potential for improvement in the future at those spots with in house options..At least thats what I think...

2007-10-10 15:11:17
167.   Humma Kavula
164 Fair enough. And like I said, I'm one of the offenders, so I can't really press the point.
2007-10-10 15:14:37
168.   fanerman
166 But then... where would Juan Pierre play?
2007-10-10 15:15:48
169.   bhsportsguy
Bronx Banter contributor says thanks for the memories to Joe Torre. His candidate, Joe Girardi.
2007-10-10 15:15:49
170.   jasonungar07
166 Sorry I need to add the other obvious thing to do is to dump Pierre and move Ethier or Kemp to CF, play Young in LF and use that 15 million elsewhere...
2007-10-10 15:17:23
171.   jasonungar07
168 On the Giants..like the orginal plan before those meddling GM's....
2007-10-10 15:18:21
172.   fanerman
170 That's what I'd prefer doing.

By the way, 168 should be said in an innocent "but-Juan-Pierre-must-play-every-day-because-he-must" matter-of-fact tone.

2007-10-10 15:20:08
173.   D4P
But then... where would Juan Pierre play?

I'm sure we can find him a sandlot somewhere. Or a sandbox.

2007-10-10 15:22:04
174.   Humma Kavula
169 As a guy who roots for weird things to happen, I would love it if the Yankees fired Torre.

As King Kaufman pointed out the other day, he might not be the perfect baseball manager, but he is the perfect manager for the Yankees so long as they are owned by Steinbrenner. What he's accomplished by keeping everybody mostly happy is remarkable.

2007-10-10 15:25:23
175.   Humma Kavula
The Dodgers should bench Juan Pierre or trade him. And I should spend fewer hours every day posting on this site.

Neither is going to happen.

2007-10-10 15:25:33
176.   D4P
Joe Torre should have put together a better pitching staff this year.
2007-10-10 15:35:20
177.   Daniel Zappala
Encouraging quote from Colletti in that Daily News article:

"Looking over the potential list of free agents, it is a very thin list in many areas," Colletti said. "As time goes on, that list is going to become thinner and thinner year by year. With revenue sharing, teams are signing players to long-term deals and locking them up. And if you go back to July and the trading deadline, that was something we had to consider in deciding whether to trade any of our young players, because how do you replace them?"

2007-10-10 15:37:11
178.   bhsportsguy
If old-time Red Sox fans ranked the worst trades of all-time, the deal that is considered the one that brought "the curse" might be second to the deal that sent Tris Speaker from the Red Sox to the Indians.

Traded just prior to the 1916 season, he would eventually lead the Indians to their first World Series victory in 1920 as a player/manager. Up until Dimaggio and then later Mays, Speaker was considered the best CF of all time and was often included with Ruth and Cobb as a member of the best OF ever.

Another note, Cleveland, without checking, is probably the only team to have won their World Series (1920, 1948) with player/managers (Lou Boudreau being the other).

Tris Speaker is the best player to have played on both clubs, Cy Young did pitch for both but he did his best work in Cleveland as a Spider not as an Indian. Dennis Eckersley also pitched for both, but as a starter.

2007-10-10 15:37:13
179.   trainwreck
Joe Torre should bench Juan Pierre.
2007-10-10 15:40:11
180.   bhsportsguy
178 I am leaving current Boston masher, Manny Ramirez out of this discussion though once he is done, he will rightly be revered by both franchises but his memorable work will be as a member of the Red Sox.
2007-10-10 15:40:43
181.   Linkmeister
Hawaii Winter Baseball official site (no box scores that I can find, and I don't think they appear in our papers, but I'll look):

http://www.hawaiiwinterbaseball.com/

2007-10-10 15:41:07
182.   Bob Timmermann
The Cubs have won their only World Series with a player/manager.

Frank Chance did so in Aught Seven and Aught Eight.

Back when saying "Aught Eight" wasn't annoying.

2007-10-10 15:44:10
183.   bhsportsguy
182 I stand corrected. I think next time I see you I will say something like do you remember that UCLA/Cal game back in Aught 5?
2007-10-10 15:44:11
184.   Daniel Zappala
"Why, I oughta ..."
2007-10-10 15:45:54
185.   Bob Timmermann
183
Why the UCLA/Cal game of Aught Five will be known as "Ayoob's Folly."
2007-10-10 15:47:37
186.   Eric Enders
181 The box scores can be found by clicking on "Schedule" on the header. Josh Bell hit a two-run homer in the ninth inning on Sunday.
2007-10-10 15:47:46
187.   LogikReader
Not a fan of the "aught". Saying it out is way better... or calling the decade the "zeros".
2007-10-10 15:49:22
188.   Eric Enders
182 "The Cubs have won their only World Series with a player/manager."

Gabby Hartnett says he doesn't remember winning anything.

2007-10-10 15:54:06
189.   bhsportsguy
188 What is the correct pronunciation of Tris? Is it "Trys" or "Tres" or "Tris"?
2007-10-10 15:56:25
190.   Eric Enders
189 It rhymes with a slang term for urine.
2007-10-10 15:58:09
191.   Eric Stephen
Oh man, I love using "aught". But I can be persuaded to use "dickety".
2007-10-10 15:59:51
192.   fracule
According to Wikipedia Tris was traded for not taking a 6,000 dollar a year pay cut. (9,000 from 15,000) According to Red Sox management he deserved the pay cut because his average had sunk to .322.
2007-10-10 16:00:10
193.   El Lay Dave
189 It's short for "Tristram"; does that help?

Check out his career K/BB ratio: 0.159! (220:1381)

2007-10-10 16:02:53
194.   Daniel Zappala
Maybe we could get Tris Speaker to play CF next year.
2007-10-10 16:05:25
195.   Eric Enders
192 Speaker was also traded, in part, because the team hoped it would solve the infighting that had plagued the team for many years. If you think the rift between young and old players on the 2007 Dodgers was bad, you should have seen the squabbling between the Catholics and the Protestants on the 1912-15 Red Sox. Speaker was the ringleader of the Protestant faction and also a member of the anti-Catholic KKK. The team's best young player, Babe Ruth, as well as the manager, Bill Carrigan, were members of the Catholic faction.
2007-10-10 16:05:41
196.   Samuel
185

I thought the Cal/UCLA game of Aught Five would be better known as "the day maurice drew got himself an NFL job" or "the day Cal's special teams had a massive breakdown". I thought Ayoob had one of his better statistical days of the year that day. It was certainly much better than his showings against Oregon or USC that year.

2007-10-10 16:08:33
197.   bhsportsguy
195 Are there any books that discuss that, it would be interesting reading (at least to me).

I wonder if Ruth ever hit Speaker on purpose after he was traded.

I also recall Speaker having a "Day" in Boston after he was dealt and being showered with gifts.

2007-10-10 16:09:54
198.   Bob Timmermann
196
I really just wanted to work Joe Ayoob's name in again.

Because it deserves more mentioning!

2007-10-10 16:10:47
199.   fracule
195 I knew that Tris was a noted bigot, but had no idea that would cause such a problem on the Red Sox!
2007-10-10 16:12:43
200.   Eric Enders
I never heard of Joe Ayoob before today. But I have to assume he is Stuart Scott's favorite player.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-10 16:13:38
201.   Bob Timmermann
197
Babe Ruth had just 29 hit batters in his career as a pitcher. That was over 1200 innings.

Speaker was hit 103 times in his career. He was hit 22 times when he was in Cleveland and Ruth was in Boston.

2007-10-10 16:17:29
202.   fanerman
200 I think "booya" was his nickname or something.
2007-10-10 16:17:47
203.   Eric Enders
199 His bigotry (and KKK membership) appears to have been much more anti-Catholic in nature than anti-black. Many years later, Speaker was hired by the Indians as a special instructor to teach middle infielder Larry Doby how to play center field. Which he gladly and graciously did.

Speaker was from the small town of Hubbard, Texas, which was also the home of the KKK's national Grand Wizard at the time, who lived only a couple of blocks away.

I don't know if there are any books that deal specifically with the factions on those Red Sox teams. I do know that Glenn Stout's "Red Sox Century" and David Jones's "Deadball Stars of the American League" discuss it quite a bit.

2007-10-10 16:19:55
204.   bhsportsguy
203 There is also a 2006 biography on Speaker that appears to be pretty well researched.

I may have to get that and ask Bob if he wants a guest book review during the World Series.

2007-10-10 16:22:51
205.   Bob Timmermann
Joe Ayoob was 18 of 35 for 215 yards and 2 TDs in 2005 against UCLA. He threw one interception.

Maurice Drew (later Jones-Drew) scored five TDs, 3 rushing, 1 receiving, and one punt return.

That game ended 47-40 only because UCLA scored a touchdown on the last play of the game. UCLA could have knelt down for a 41-40 win. Or at least forced Cal to go 98 yards in 1 second.

2007-10-10 16:23:10
206.   underdog
mlbtraderumors sums up Tony Jackson's new column on the state of the Dodgers and the future, listing out the highlights of what they will/might/should/shouldn't do... sort of.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/state-of-the-do.html#trackback

Feel free to join in the debate in the comments there.

2007-10-10 16:23:54
207.   Bob Timmermann
"Tris Speaker" by Timothy Gay seems to be the newest one.
2007-10-10 16:28:05
208.   Marty
In the 90s I went fishing every year up in northern California. We stayed outside a little city up there called Chester. We bought bait every morning at Ayoob's Sporting Goods. Wonder if there is a connection to the athlete.
2007-10-10 16:29:38
209.   fracule
203 Thanks Eric.
2007-10-10 16:31:51
210.   Bob Timmermann
208
Joe Ayoob was from San Rafael. Or I guess "is from" since he is still among the living.
2007-10-10 16:32:31
211.   trainwreck
205
That game was easily my peak of happiness during the KD Era.

I can't wait for the AKD Era.

2007-10-10 16:40:57
212.   BlueCrew Bruin
194 We'd definitely see an uptick in CF assists. {rimshot}
2007-10-10 16:42:54
213.   wronghanded
206 That debate is comical, Ethier and LaRoche will get us Cabrerra and Willis?

This post particularly confused me:

They need pitching! You don't win in baseball without it, and that's compounded greatly in the NL-W! You get good pitching an it looks great in all those hitters parks and vast outfields ~ they will never win if the top half of their rotation is made up of injury-prone 2-types while they play patch-work with the other two spots…

Posted by: darkstar1661 | October 10, 2007 at 05:40 PM

I never realized that Penny and Lowe were so injury prone, apparently we have a 4 man rotation and Billingsley doesn't exist.

2007-10-10 16:44:14
214.   Bob Timmermann
Tris Speaker was in 139 DPs from the outfield.
2007-10-10 16:45:25
215.   jasonungar07
So Will Ferrell is making Land of the Lost. Who plays Chaka? I am thinking the dude from SNL, Adam Sanberg..
2007-10-10 16:52:02
216.   fracule
215 Adam Sandler, or Andy Samberg?
2007-10-10 16:57:40
217.   silverwidow
206 Who made up that comment about the Dodgers not giving Andy LaRoche another look? What a bunch of garbage!
2007-10-10 16:58:20
218.   underdog
215 Seriously?? Man, they're desperate these days, aren't they?

I always had a crush on that little blond girl, even though I was only 5 when that was on TV.

213 Comical, indeed. Feel free to post a rebuttal of logic. I just didn't have the energy.

2007-10-10 16:59:34
219.   Sam DC
Charlie Wilson today mentioned rumors that the team would move Pierre to left. He seriously scoffed. "Ethier has to play" he said. He also said that, if the team wanted to improve on Juan Pierre, it needed to bite the bullet and move him, big contract (and presumably a pile of cash) and all.
2007-10-10 17:03:59
220.   D4P
Seriously?? Man, they're desperate these days, aren't they?

Easy money, my friend. Easy money. Some of us make a point not to let them get away with it.

2007-10-10 17:06:11
221.   regfairfield
219 Everyone talking about moving Pierre to left is assuming that Ethier gets traded, right?
2007-10-10 17:08:38
222.   bhsportsguy
Will the Rockies' fans give him a standing ovation?

Tim McClelland will serve as the Crew Chief during the National League Championship Series between the Colorado Rockies and the Arizona Diamondbacks. Now in his 26th year as a Major League Umpire, McClelland has received his 16th career postseason assignment, including his seventh LCS. McClelland's crew will include Mark Wegner, Larry Vanover, Tom Hallion, Angel Hernandez and Jim Joyce.

2007-10-10 17:09:29
223.   underdog
Sigh. Is it April yet?
2007-10-10 17:09:53
224.   jasonungar07
Go get her Underdog , it's never to late!

Kathleen Coleman was born on February 18, 1962. Her claim to fame is for her portrayal of Holly Marshall on 'Land of the Lost', a show which first ran on Saturday mornings on NBC from September 1974 to December 1976. Her straight bangs and braids, along with her red and white checked shirt and corduroys became her trademark. Holly was the first love for many who grew up watching the show. She married at age 18 and had two sons. She worked on her father-in-laws dairy farm in Fallon, Nevada with her husband for several years before they divorced around 1987, after which she moved back to the Los Angeles area.

2007-10-10 17:12:02
225.   underdog
Heh. Nyah, she's older than my sister!

{fickle}

2007-10-10 17:12:26
226.   trainwreck
I have only seen the Land of the Lost remake that was on Nickelodeon when I was a kid. So I doubt I am going to get most of the jokes that parody the show.
2007-10-10 17:15:18
227.   trainwreck
I am still waiting for the promised Anchorman sequel. All other Will Ferrell have no significance until I get to see Ron Burgundy again.
2007-10-10 17:15:47
228.   trainwreck
*Will Ferrel movies have...
2007-10-10 17:17:21
229.   D4P
228
Try again.
2007-10-10 17:20:06
230.   jasonungar07
In other words, Ron Burgundy was the balls....
2007-10-10 17:25:02
231.   Daniel Zappala
I love this blog. I just added the Land of the Lost DVDs to my Netflix queue so my kids can see them.
2007-10-10 17:26:26
232.   underdog
Or there's this, Daniel, for free:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4HeVZcoVqIo
2007-10-10 17:33:24
233.   Jon Weisman
I had a friend in grade school whose nickname was Siggy, after Sigmund and the Sea Monsters. I can't remember how he got that nickname.
2007-10-10 17:38:47
234.   D4P
The Jeff Kent photo caption is worth a look.

http://tinyurl.com/2xsmk9

2007-10-10 17:39:13
235.   Jon Weisman
50 top LCS moments:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=LCSmoments/071008

2007-10-10 17:39:19
236.   Bluebleeder87
Delwyn Young to emergency catcher!

It use to be Repko's gig I think, but hey, why not, He's got a great bat. I really hope he makes the roster in some capacity

2007-10-10 17:43:26
237.   Gen3Blue
Sorry I haven't caught up reading this bunch, so I apologize if I am redundant, but in the Baseball Musing's age/pa list what is truly remarkable is where the two NY teams are, and of course, SF in a totally seperate space.
2007-10-10 17:46:01
238.   Gen3Blue
236 Why use young guys in utility like Abreu,Hu and Young when we have guys like Lucille II and Sweeney who are woth millions!
2007-10-10 17:48:41
239.   bhsportsguy
233 My cousin lived next door to Johnny Whitaker (after the Family Affair days) deep in the SFV back in the early '70s.
2007-10-10 17:50:02
240.   Daniel Zappala
232 Netflix is free too. I've already paid for it, so adding a movie to my queue costs me nothing.

Also, if I want my kids to have the great experiences I had as a kid, sitting around the tube together beats sitting around the YouTube any day!

2007-10-10 17:53:20
241.   Sam DC
235 "In one of the great LCS pitching duels, Ken Holtzman and Mike Cuellar were both still tossing in the 11th."

It was just a different world.

2007-10-10 17:56:45
242.   D4P
Also, if I want my kids to have the great experiences I had as a kid, sitting around the tube together beats sitting around the YouTube any day!

Do you make them use Apple IIe's? Or Commodore PETs?

2007-10-10 17:59:31
243.   Daniel Zappala
Yes, and they wear corduroys too!
2007-10-10 18:00:07
244.   D4P
Toughskins?
2007-10-10 18:03:56
245.   El Lay Dave
235 Tom Niedenfuer makes the list. Twice, of course. :(
2007-10-10 18:29:20
246.   MJW101
If Ned, through some mistaken value system, elects to keep Hendrickson then it is the end for Houlton and Stults as Dodgers, since they have to make the 25 man roster in 2008 or be exposed to waivers.

Also, it would be inappropriate for a measly long man (Hendrickson) to make more ($2.5M+) than the closer (Saito).

Wolf (after not picking up his option) and Tsao could be offered minor league contracts with the provision that if they are healthy and not on the the 25 man roster by May 31 they will be traded or released. If he made the 25 man Wolf would receive $4M and $250K per start for starts 17 thru 32. If Tsao made the 25 man he would receive $600K.

2007-10-10 18:35:26
247.   El Lay Dave
Sam DC, maybe you linked us to this Manny Acta interview before, but I don't remember it:

http://www.squawkingbaseball.com/?p=25

I like this part:
SB: What's your stance on bunting and other one run strategies?

MA: Bunting is pretty outdated. Everybody scores so many runs nowadays, it doesn't make sense to play for one run unless it's late in the game and it's close. I hardly ever bunt early in a game, unless it's with a pitcher. A big inning can win you a game. One run in the third inning can't, unless you have Pedro pitching.

2007-10-10 18:36:14
248.   MJW101
What ever veteran OF Ned signs to play LF/CF would have to be far, far better than Ethier considering the huge increase in cost.

This is assuming of course that Nomar will play 3B to start 2008 with LaRoche taking over in May/June after Nomar sucks and/or gets injured.

Of course if Ned signs Lowell then Nomar plays LF with Ethier as backup or traded.

2007-10-10 18:41:56
249.   Sam DC
247 Thx, I hadn't seen that. He made similar comments about bunting and, more broadly, about evaluating in-game situations by looking at prior outcomes over time that have made him very popular among statminded fans/bloggers.
2007-10-10 18:44:40
250.   trainwreck
247
Would DePo still be GM if he went with Acta over Collins?

I wish we had Acta regardless.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-10-10 18:47:50
251.   El Lay Dave
249 I remember you pointing us to some comments like that. I like seeing them published as often as possible!

250 No - he doesn't know how to schmooze Frank and Jamie.

2007-10-10 18:48:15
252.   D4P
Anyone else like Jimmy Eat World's new album? They have such a great sound.
2007-10-10 18:51:24
253.   Dodgers49
Young stars all over the place

>> If there was any chance of the Los Angeles Dodgers changing course, from young kids who chug Red Bull to veterans who keep Celebrex nearby, it's gone now. <<

## The Dodgers lineup next season right now has kids penciled in at five positions: Catcher Russell Martin (24), first baseman James Loney (23), third baseman Andy LaRoche (24) and outfielders Andre Ethier (25) and Matt Kemp (23). ##

http://www.presstelegram.com/sports/ci_7132020

This guy doesn't even mention Nomar?????

2007-10-10 18:52:33
254.   trainwreck
252
You make fun of us for the movies and the TV shows we watch, but then you go and talk about Jimmy Eat World being good.

You just made me sad, D4P. Even more sad then I was earlier when I read that Fedor signed with M-1.

2007-10-10 18:55:08
255.   bhsportsguy
247 The Nationals had 63 sacrifices, 28 by non-pitchers. The Dodgers had 58 sacrifices, 28 by non-pitchers.

The Rockies led the National League in sacrifices with 81 but only 35 by non-pitchers. Holliday, Atkins and Helton do not have a sacrifice, Hawpe has 1.

2007-10-10 18:56:05
256.   D4P
Even more sad then I was earlier when I read that Fedor signed with M-1.

No! No! No! I read that the other day, but thought it was just a rumor. Now I see that it appears to be true. That's very disappointing. Who's he gonna fight? Maybe Josh Barnett will sign too, but how many times can they fight each other? That's a real bummer. On the other hand, I feel kinda good for him that he didn't cave in to Dana.

Jimmy Eat World is great. Their Bleed American album is one of my all-time favorites.

2007-10-10 19:00:14
257.   trainwreck
256
Well his manager is associated with M-1, so I am not sold he had Fedor's best interests in hand. But I guess MMA game is not as important as sambo to Fedor, so more power to him.
2007-10-10 19:01:30
258.   El Lay Dave
255 That's the part I like about Grady Little. (I see only 27 by Dodger non-pitchers, and I suspect some of JP's 20 are on his own.)
2007-10-10 19:02:34
259.   bhsportsguy
255 If you exclude sacrifices by pitchers, most teams (AL and NL) bunt about the same, there are extremes, Oakland just doesn't bunt at all and the Rockies seem to defy their ballpark by bunting the most in baseball.

The Yankees had more non-pitcher sacrifices than the Dodgers.

I guess that you can argue that if you broke it down by batting order, the AL bunts would be towards the bottom of their lineups too.

2007-10-10 19:03:01
260.   D4P
257
Yeah, I feel worse for me than I do for him. I actually think he'll be happier this way.

But Fedor signing with M-1 is like ARod signing in the Japan league.

2007-10-10 19:04:13
261.   bhsportsguy
258 He's such a good bunter (if I could challenge any statement that would be the one), my guess is that some of those were attempted hits that became sacrifices.
2007-10-10 19:04:50
262.   El Lay Dave
246 It was explained to me in an earlier thread, IIRC, that because he is arbitration eligible, but not free-agent eligible, Tsao would have to be non-tendered and then subject to claim by other teams. Only if he went unclaimed would he become a free-agent to whom the Dodgers could offer a minor-league contract.

Wolf, I believe, become an FA if his option is declined, and then anything goes.

2007-10-10 19:06:23
263.   trainwreck
Grady Little is awesome. He is the greatest manager of all time. He totally creates tons of wins with his managerial moves.

That's right Ned, no need to ever think about hiring Dusty.

2007-10-10 19:09:57
264.   El Lay Dave
263 ... and Grady Little is the perfect mentor for those young kids the Dodgers are cultivating. He is the perfect Yoda for the talented but headstrong Luke Skywalkers manning 1B, RF, 3B, etc. Yup, Ned, you're on the right track on this one.
2007-10-10 19:12:08
265.   trainwreck
I hear Grady can cure TINSTAAPP.
2007-10-10 19:20:23
266.   neuroboy002
256 Do you have an acoustic version of "Sweetness" (?) I've been looking for it for a while now. Nothing on itunes or elsewhere.
2007-10-10 19:36:35
267.   Daniel Zappala
265 Absolutely. And he's the perfect manager to help a very young team progress to the World Series. And he knows how to relate to young players brought up from AAA. And he is best friends with A-Rod and is more than ready to bench Pierre and play Kemp in CF.
2007-10-10 19:37:43
268.   LogikReader
Ok everybody, let's not forget rule 7.
2007-10-10 19:43:23
269.   das411
.....wow. South Park tonight....just wow.

Don't miss this one, left coasters!

Jon et all, re: your initial post, aren't any offseason plans pretty much on hold for a couple more weeks anyways? Or is the DT community that afraid of Colletti making a move too big to wait until after the playoffs end?

2007-10-10 20:02:26
270.   Daniel Zappala
268 That wasn't sarcasm. That was a well-planned attempt to ward off Dusty Baker.
2007-10-10 20:14:38
271.   trainwreck
Anytime there is talk of managers we have to stress the importance of keeping Grady over Dusty.

Just in case.

2007-10-10 20:21:36
272.   Terry A
Breaking LCS News:

SI.com's Jon Heyman reports that Rockies manager Clint Hurdle is both happy and charming.

2007-10-10 20:44:44
273.   MJW101
262 He was out of options and non-tendered by the Rockies in 2007 which is how the Dodgers got him in the first place.

The only way the Dodgers are going to be able to keep Tsao is to non-tender him and if he is not claimed sign him to a minor league contract as they did in 2007. Then if he proves to be healthy bring him up to LA. Offering him arb and keeping him on the 40 man and 25 man is too risky a proposition.

2007-10-10 20:52:16
274.   Vishal
252 it's okay. i haven't honestly dug a j.e.w. album since clarity though.
2007-10-10 20:58:13
275.   Gen3Blue
Uhhhh, anytime someone mentions Tom Nieenfuer, I feel punched in the gut. Goodnight anyway!
2007-10-10 21:50:46
276.   MJW101
If Ned insists upon signing a veteran to stabilize the team a good candidate would be Alou for one season. He would be of reasonable cost, would not complain about playing time and he out produced Gonzo in 2007. He could platoon with Ethier in LF.
2007-10-10 21:54:26
277.   StolenMonkey86
276- Colletti doesn't want to sign Alou because that means shaking his hand. That's my guess.
2007-10-10 21:56:00
278.   StolenMonkey86
269 - That was quite special. This week's and last week's look like episodes ideas that I would have expected them to have done a long time ago.
2007-10-10 21:57:39
279.   StolenMonkey86
270 - Dusty Baker is best suited be the GM for a team that's not the Dodgers. Then we could get him to trade someone for a speedy center fielder sure not to clog up the bases.
2007-10-10 22:10:46
280.   Tangled Up in Blue
252 - Speaking of music, did you know you can download Radiohead's new album for free (legally)?

The album is incredible.

check out inrainbows.com

2007-10-10 22:11:27
281.   dzzrtRatt
276 You say things like this and my mind starts to melt.

I think Ned wants Jones or Hunter. But he doesn't want to take any heat for blocking good prospects. I suspect that leaves out Alou. It's either a long-term veteran solution or he goes with the kids.

Same thing at third base. I think he really wants Lowell. But he knows he probably can't get him except for at a price that will hold him up to ridicule and criticism. So he'll go with Nomar with LaRoche as the Loney, he hopes. And he'll lower expectations for what he expects from Nomar. The marketing department will be notified to keep him off the ads.

2007-10-10 22:22:14
282.   sporky
281 - That's the most optimistic thing I've read in a month.
2007-10-10 22:23:16
283.   sporky
282 - In a good way. If that's the worse that can happen, I will buy a customized COLLETTI jersey.
2007-10-10 23:12:27
284.   still bevens
Don't we almost have to start Nomar at 3B? I mean we're paying him a significant amount of money, he's not going anywhere because of the no trade, and his second half wasn't nearly as bad as the first so you can point to those numbers if someone puts Ned's back against the wall. What else could we do with him?

I think the big concern is if Kent decides to retire. Then Ned might panic. If that happens I could see giving Nomar a try at 2B and signing Lowell. That would be pretty awful.

2007-10-10 23:26:08
285.   StolenMonkey86
The upcoming NLCS remined me of something in this post:

http://badaltitude.baseballtoaster.com/archives/701899.html

I'm all for it, because I don't want to root for a team that would, "grind up the bones of lost kids at Chase Field then spread them on the infield to slow down ground balls for Brandon Webb starts."

2007-10-10 23:28:42
286.   fanerman
280 Yup it's great!
2007-10-10 23:31:24
287.   dzzrtRatt
That's why we have to root for anybody but the Red Sox to win the championship.

The Indians, D-backs and Rockies were built the mostly from within, plus shedding big salaries to get more prospects into the mix. The Sox rely heavily on imports, dumping young players to get them. Even though some of the veterans were well-chosen, the Sox winning sends message we don't want Ned to hear.

The thing about Ned is, he hasn't established a style yet. He's literally running the team like a two-headed man, one of them a reflection of his past with the Giants, the other still searching for approval and success but not quite sure what road will get it for him. What happens elsewhere in baseball influences him more than it would a "comfortable in his skin" executive.

2007-10-10 23:34:27
288.   sporky
Assuming Grady continues carrying 12 pitchers, that leaves room for 13 position players.

Martin
Lieberthal
Loney
Sweeney
Kent
Abreu
Valdez
Furcal
Hu
Nomar
LaRoche
Kemp
Ethier
Pierre
Young

That's 15, but with mid-season injuries, there should be enough room to accomodate them all. This is assuming Kent comes back (which I think he will), and the musical chairs at 3B stops. After being blasted about blocking Loney and Kemp from starting positions, Ned might feel more pressure to keep Nomar on a shorter leash (his learning curve can't be that shallow... right?). Between LaRoche and Nomar, 3B isn't as bleak as I initially thought.

As others have mentioned before, the Dodgers wouldn't be in bad shape if they did absolutely nothing but upgrade their bench in-house.

2007-10-10 23:38:26
289.   das411
287 - ??? But the Sox have such terrific home grown players in their lineup! Like:

Dustin Pedroia
Kevin Youkilis
.....

Speaking of home-grown talent though, is anybody else kind of upset that now the Yanks and Bosox both appear to have their own versions of Jon Broxton?

2007-10-11 00:02:31
290.   sporky
289 - In Cleveland's case

Grady Sizemore
Fausto Carmona
C.C. Sabathia
Rafael Betancourt
Rafael Perez
Victor Martinez
Asdrubal Cabrera
Ryan Garko
Jhonny Peralta
Franklin Gutierrez
Aaron Laffey

That's 11 out of 25 on their active roster that are home-grown (13 if you include Hafner and Westbrook, who spent their rookie seasons elsewhere but have been Indians since). Granted, not all of them are stars, let alone super-stars, but 11/25! That's astounding, considering how well they're doing.

Boston has great home-grown talent too (Lester, Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Buchholz... and Varitek, too, lol), but because of their market and payroll, they can afford to fill out their rosters with all-star FAs and whatnot. By virtue of being small market teams, Cleveland, Colorado and Arizona had to develop outstanding farm systems to compete. Their current lineups can attest to that.

Despite the fact that he has an amazing pool of prospects to build a team from, Ned might feel compelled to spend money on expensive, mediocre players because, well, he can.

2007-10-11 00:05:12
291.   Bob Timmermann
Grady Sizemore was drafted by Montreal. Asdrubal Cabrera was acquired in a trade from Seattle.
Franklin Gutierrez was from the Dodgers organization.
2007-10-11 00:23:19
292.   sporky
291 - Ah.. they're, er, semi-homegrown. I stand corrected.
2007-10-11 05:47:49
293.   Andrew Shimmin
The Department of Homeland Security fails the American people, yet again:

http://tinyurl.com/2hurto

2007-10-11 07:47:19
294.   Disabled List
235 Great list, but I'd rearrange it slightly. Here's my top 10:

10. Jack Clark's HR (ugh)
9. Mike Scioscia's HR
8. Chris Chambliss' HR
7. Robin Ventura's grand slam single
6. Donnie Henderson's HR
5. Dave Roberts' SB/David Ortiz' HR
4. Pedro/Grady/Aaron Boone
3. Bartman
2. 1986 Game 6, Mets vs. Astros, innings 9-16
1. Barry Bonds fails to throw out Sid Bream

2007-10-11 07:56:37
295.   Humma Kavula
293 You can never trust these clowns to do the right thing.
2007-10-11 08:06:43
296.   LogikReader
Quick review, here's a list of potential moves for the Dodgers this offseason and my opinion on each, see if you agree with any of these:

What I don't want to happen

1. Kemp, Ethier, LaRoche traded
2. Torri Hunter signed
3. Andruw Jones signed
4. Mike Lowell signed
5. Moises Alou signed (this could get upgraded to "wouldn't mind")
6. Livan Hernandez signed
7. Darin Erstad signed
8. Corey Patterson signed
9. Schilling signed (unlikely)
10. Mike Cameron signed
11. Kris Benson signed

What I want to happen

1. A-Rod signed
2. Shawn Chacon signed
3. Kyle Lohse signed (I'm going to get some heat for this one :) )
4. Byrd signed

What I wouldn't mind

1. Adam Dunn signed
2. Aaron Rowand signed
3. Bobby Abreu signed

2007-10-11 08:07:05
297.   Daniel Zappala
Game 4, 1988 deserves to be ranked as one of the top 3 LCS games of all time. But since they're ranking "moments" ... eh.
2007-10-11 08:08:23
298.   Daniel Zappala
I'm OK with Jones signed if it means Pierre is benched or traded.
2007-10-11 08:11:50
299.   Ken Noe
253 Who is Bob Keisser and should I trust him, or is this just speculation? I want to trust him.
2007-10-11 08:15:08
300.   Andrew Shimmin
299- He's the founding father of Who's-to-say-bermetrics.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-10-11 08:20:11
301.   Ken Noe
298 Ned's not trading JP this year, but I'm hoping this talk of shifting JP to left (preferably for Bison) is just the first step in his being Nomarred out of a position at all. I also hope that once he misses a game, he'll miss more. But then I'm a hopeful guy.
2007-10-11 08:31:46
302.   JoeyP
Why Chacon/Lohse/Byrd over Curt Schilling?

Those prior 3 just scream PVL, innings eater, mediocre, etc...

Schilling's old, but he at least could be good. Not that I'd advocate signing him but if the Dodgers cant find any of their money to spend I'd rather it be on him than the prior 3.

2007-10-11 08:56:09
303.   LogikReader
302

Lohse is only 28 and has an ERA+ over 100.

I will admit that I made that list a month ago, before I compared K/BB ratio... Neither Lohse or Chacon have a good K/BB ratio, so both of these might go into the "wouldn't mind" list now.

Byrd I think would be fine for a 4th starter, but it depends on the price.

I liked what I wrote for Colon

"Colon: This guy sucks"

2007-10-11 08:56:14
304.   Andrew Shimmin
300 Comment 14 was Keisser's. Comment 72 (DzzrtRatt's, of course) is where the phrase gets turned.

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/287155.html

Looking through the rest of the archives, it looks like Keisser was on the side of the angels, more often than not, when his name came up. He is one of the only local writers who ever seemed to think rebuilding was a good idea. And that was back in 2005, when the Jacksonville Five were still prospects.

2007-10-11 09:02:46
305.   D4P
304
Huh. dzzrtRatt calls it "Who's-to-say-bernomics" in 72, then some really cool guy uses "Who's-to-say-bermetrics" in 75.
2007-10-11 09:06:02
306.   D4P
304
And I posted the following in 137:

The Dodgers intend to interview Giants assistant GM Ned Colletti for their general manager opening. He'd be the third candidate to interview with the team, following Pat Gillick, who chose the Phillies, and Kim Ng. Owner Frank McCourt has spoken to several other candidates, including John Hart, Theo Epstein and Dennis Gilbert. Hart could be the favorite, but whether he wants the job is in doubt. Epstein's interest seems lukewarm at best. Nov. 10 - 12:51 pm et

If I could turn back time,
If I could find a way...

2007-10-11 09:08:39
307.   Don Tordilla
Schuerholz stepping down as Braves GM. Any guesses where he ends up?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21250042/

2007-10-11 09:12:56
308.   Don Tordilla
Scratch that, I guess he will stay in the front office as team president

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7322496

2007-10-11 09:31:10
309.   ToyCannon
307
I was gonna say Texas since that is where he traded his future.
2007-10-11 09:31:10
310.   LogikReader
308

What's the difference?

---

Schilling I wouldn't want to sign because a) It'd cost too much money and b) he has a big mouth.

Most of all, I'm just glad Luis Gonzalez is leaving... I wonder where he'd end up?

2007-10-11 09:33:55
311.   ToyCannon
Jon Lieber is a pitcher I'd be interested in if Ned feels he needs a plan C. Always been a big fan of his control. I bet he ends up in San Diego.

At one time Lieber pitched to Lieberthal for the Phillies. Has anyone ever had a battery where the names were different but the 1st six letters were the same? Bob?

2007-10-11 09:36:32
312.   D4P
Has anyone ever had a battery where the names were different but the 1st six letters were the same? Bob?

Martinez to Martin would be an obvious possibility. We just gotta get ourselves another Lucille who can pitch.

2007-10-11 09:55:09
313.   ToyCannon
216 players with the 1st 6 letters of Martin have played professional baseball so probably just a matter of time before a Martino pitches to our Martin.
2007-10-11 10:11:59
314.   fanerman
313 Lucille III?
2007-10-11 10:20:24
315.   silverwidow
Most of all, I'm just glad Luis Gonzalez is leaving... I wonder where he'd end up?

Padres or Giants

2007-10-11 10:38:24
316.   goofus
Gonzo, Nomar, and Pierre have "Giants" written all over them...
2007-10-11 10:44:47
317.   D4P
Yep. Sabean can now start surrounding Zito with veterans.
2007-10-11 11:08:42
318.   Humma Kavula
I am right now listening to the Robert Plant/Alison Krauss album, Raising Sand.

It's interesting. Extremely interesting. It requires multiple listenings.

2007-10-11 11:17:10
319.   Frip
318 "It requires multiple listenings"

Why, too convince the ears that Plant can no longer sing?

2007-10-11 11:19:18
320.   Bob Timmermann
I'm very excited to receive my sample ballot for an election on November 6.

I get to vote for two school board members in town and Proposition UT and Proposition AV. And Proposition AV doesn't even count!

I hope there isn't a backup at the polls.

2007-10-11 11:19:34
321.   bhsportsguy
While I agree that the way to build your team is through your own farm system, don't forget that the Padres could have easily taken either the Rockies or D-Backs spot and they had a grand total of 2 contributors from their farm system.

A telling comment is from Josh Byrnes, Arizona GM, he says the problem isn't getting to the playoffs, it is sustaining it and that is where large revenue teams have an advantage. Right now, both Colorado and Arizona and to some extent, Cleveland are in manageable payroll situations. But Hawpe and Atkins will move out of the six figure salary to the seven figure next year since they are arbitration eligible, Holliday will be entering his last 2 years before free agency having made 4 million last year and he (Boras) will probably be looking for a nice 2 year deal (20-25 million) for him.

The D-Backs have a couple more years before the arbitration clock starts ticking.

And both teams will have to deal with future commitments Arizona (Eric Byrnes and Chad Tracy) and Colorado (Todd Helton).

The Dodgers will face a similar situation, especially with Russell Martin and Jonathan Broxton who will have impressive resumes when they become arbitration eligible after next year (Russell will be close as 2+ player, Broxton will have 3 years in the books). Fortunately for the Dodgers, Kemp and Loney will probably not be arbitration eligible until after the 2010 season, Chad Billingsley after 2009.

2007-10-11 11:28:16
322.   Humma Kavula
319 He doesn't have the best voice, but he can play.

And if you imply that Alison Krauss cannot sing, that is an implication that I will not take lightly.

2007-10-11 11:31:34
323.   Frip
320 Please keep Rule 5 in mind. Though not overtly political your post was extremely offensive to the disillusioned non-voters and lazy Dorito munchers among us.
2007-10-11 11:37:11
324.   Bob Timmermann
323
In political science terms, I am known as a "pathological voter."

You hand me a ballot and I'm there.

2007-10-11 11:40:33
325.   silverwidow
321 Ethier, if he's still with the Dodgers, is in the same boat as Martin as a Super Two player.
2007-10-11 11:41:35
326.   silverwidow
325 This is after 2008, of course.
2007-10-11 11:42:05
327.   underdog
323 They have devices that can remove orange-fingered Doritos stains from ballots now, if that's what's keeping you from voting...
2007-10-11 11:55:06
328.   Dark Horse
318-I like this record too. On first blush, it's very appealing.

Is it true, that Bob Plant "can no longer sing?" I love Zeppelin--I'm a huge fan--and it's true he no longer can sing in that fashion, but I find what's become of his voice, when applied to the right material, pretty nice. It's like Dylan, who can't sneer the way he once did, but who's aged into something that suits him anyway.

Allison Krauss, of course, can sing like Smokey Robinson or the young Dolly Parton. About as well as any human being ever could or will.

2007-10-11 11:59:05
329.   Frip
322 "Plant doesn't have the best voice, but he can play."

Not sure what you mean. He can dabble on guitar a bit, but that's it. Look, I would literally (not figuratively) give my left lung to Robert if he needed it. This is the man who sang "Achilles Last Stand" for God's sake. But we have to be honest, especially with our idols, the guy lost his voice sometime around 1993. Yes he can still "sing", but without any semblance of pleasing tone. He's sort of faking it now with half-whispers and exotic phrasing.

2007-10-11 11:59:56
330.   D4P
Allison Krauss, of course, can sing like Smokey Robinson or the young Dolly Parton. About as well as any human being ever could or will

Dido, anyone...?

2007-10-11 12:06:51
331.   Daniel Zappala
330 No, but I'll give that statement a "ditto".
2007-10-11 12:15:17
332.   D4P
You dodo! You don't like Dido?
2007-10-11 12:16:11
333.   wireroom
I love me some Zepp, and Robert Plant was one of the most wonderful singers ever, but sometimes those lyrics that he is singing on on those old Led records get me scratching my head. That is how I know that a singer is amazing; when what he sings makes little to no sense and I still love it. Plus that guy is the absolute best interview I have ever read. Funny, articulate and honest.
I just had to pay my respects to Robert Plant.
2007-10-11 12:18:14
334.   D4P
That is how I know that a singer is amazing; when what he sings makes little to no sense and I still love it

But how do know that isn't just bad lyric-writing? Why presume genius?

2007-10-11 12:22:37
335.   Daniel Zappala
332 I haven't ever heard Dido, but I've heard of Dada.
2007-10-11 12:24:23
336.   wireroom
334-It probably is bad lyric writing, but he pulls it off because the guys has the lungs of a man from the land of the ice and snow. I think Robert really just wanted to be a Viking.
2007-10-11 12:28:30
337.   D4P
335
If you haven't heard Dido, you haven't heard nada.

Dido has a beautiful voice. Here's her biggest hit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhGHLC0tbcw

It doesn't necessarily show off her voice, and I can't vouch for the video, but it's a pretty song.

2007-10-11 12:34:11
338.   Sam DC
It's like old times day here, now I can haul out my rant about Dido covering Fire and Rain again.

In other news, this from the Keisser thread is fun: 60. Colorado Blue Uh, there are people here in Denver who don't even follow baseball who have asked me "what's up with your Dodgers?" The fact that the Dodgers have supplanted the Rockies as the subject of many a head scratch leads me to believe that we are the running joke of the league.

2007-10-11 12:36:30
339.   fracule
If the D-Backs go on to win the world series
they will be the sixth youngest (offensive) team ever to
accomplish that.

1. 1913 A's - 25.6
2. 1914 Braves - 25.7
3. 1969 Mets - 25.9
4. 1912 Red Sox - 26.1
5. 1942 St. Louis - 26.4

The oldest appears to be 1945 Tigers @ 32.3
(Yes, their team age was older than the 2001 D-Backs who didn't have a starting fielder under 31)

The mean age of the oldest starting pos. player on a world series team in the last 20 years (19 teams) - 33.2
The mean age of the youngest - 24.5

The oldest starting member of the '88 Dodgers - Kirk Gibson @ 31.

2007-10-11 12:39:17
340.   D4P
I can haul out my rant about Dido covering Fire and Rain again

I know nothing about that. I don't support it.

2007-10-11 12:42:13
341.   fracule
338 I haven't heard that, but I'm sure it beats Cher's cover.
2007-10-11 12:45:47
342.   Frip
There was no presumption of Plantian lyrical genius in any post.

Plant was a fair to good lyricist. He was never terrible, and could at times show some literary flash. Definitely not from the political or rebel side of things. More of the women-sure-are-hot / kings and queens and guillotines school. He did this well. It's rock & roll. If you want Keats go to the library.

Lyrics are overrated anyway. If they are excellent they can take a song beyond itself. But usually they are middle of the road filler. They have to be distractingly bad for a song to actually suffer, and luckily this is rare (or at least inaudible).

2007-10-11 12:47:43
343.   Bob Timmermann
339
I wonder if there is a good way to express the mean age of a team. The 1913 A's had about a whole bunch of young guys under 25 who made token appearances.

None of the 8 position players were older than 29. Eddie Plank was 37 and he was one of the regulars in the rotation.

However the 1945 Tigers did have a lot of older players because of the war. And also a 17-year old and an 18-year old, who didn't play much.

Would it make sense to just take the mean age of the 25 players on the postseason roster, although with Arizona even that's deceptive.

2007-10-11 12:50:30
344.   D4P
I wonder if there is a good way to express the mean age of a team

Don't you think "Average age per plate appearance" does a decent job, at least for non-pitchers?

2007-10-11 12:52:07
345.   StolenMonkey86
Bob, have you read this book?

http://tinyurl.com/2376gf

2007-10-11 12:55:32
346.   D4P
345
More importantly, has he reread it...
2007-10-11 12:59:39
347.   Frip
D for P and raise you a Q, that's a good song. Didn't know it was Dido, always thought it was that other hippy dippy chick, Sarah McGlophin.

McClauphlin?

McDolphin?

Can't she just call herself Sting.

2007-10-11 13:01:51
348.   D4P
McLachlan.

I'm guessing a lot of people who think they don't know Dido have actually heard that song. That happens to me a lot. I'm not really up to speed on a lot of music, and I often don't know I've heard certain "artists", only to find out that I have but didn't know it was them.

2007-10-11 13:05:07
349.   D4P
Ja(y)son Stark more or less debunks the following "three fundamental rules of October as we used to know them"

* The team with the most postseason experience usually wins.
* The manager with the most postseason experience usually wins.
* The team with the biggest payroll usually wins.

http://tinyurl.com/2gafy5

2007-10-11 13:06:04
350.   Icaros
My favorite Dido song is "Hunter." I like that album, but the stuff I've heard since hasn't hit me in the guts much.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-10-11 13:06:36
351.   Andrew Shimmin
340- http://odeo.com/audio/9953723/view

Dido would make a good Rita Cosby impersonator, if such a creature could be called good. I only wonder if the plumbing of her nasal cavity is defective by design, or if she's going out of her way to sound like that.

2007-10-11 13:13:26
352.   D4P
350
I like a lot of her songs. My favorites are probably "Stoned" and "See You When You're 40" and "This Land Is Mine". I guess those are all from her second album, which doesn't necessarily mean I like it better than her first.

One nice thing about Dido is that she writes her own music and plays a lot of instruments.

2007-10-11 13:14:37
353.   D4P
351
Meh. Not terrible, but I'm not a big cover guy. Or cover girl.
2007-10-11 13:16:25
354.   Eric Enders
I think Dido actually played for the Dodgers back in the day. Long before he became the coach at USC.
2007-10-11 13:29:35
355.   Frip
351 Rita Cosby is all about sexily inflamed vocal nodules, not the nasal cavity. I love her voice. I would marry her voice.
2007-10-11 13:30:52
356.   fracule
343 The first numbers are 'team age' an average weighted by plate appearances. I only used mean for the second set of stats to show how young and old the average world series winner is.
2007-10-11 13:32:43
357.   Icaros
How many people's first time hearing Dido did not occur either while watching the opening credits to the show "Roswell" (would never admit to actually watching that show) or listening to Eminem's "Stan"?

I'd bet not a lot.

2007-10-11 13:33:52
358.   Eric Enders
I think my first time hearing Dido has yet to occur.
2007-10-11 13:34:53
359.   dzzrtRatt
Led Zeppelin's lyrics were the product of their times. Delta blues meets J.R.R. Tolkein.

One minute, Plant was singing that if you squeezed his lemon, the juice would run down his leg. Next, he'd be going on about a sprinkling for the May Queen and a rustle in your hedgerow.

Now that my son is writing songs, I'm getting questions from him like, "what does askance mean?" Even with the looser rhyming standards of rock and roll, lyrics are hard work, and (as in Led Zeppelin's case) often beside the point.

2007-10-11 13:35:31
360.   fanerman
I'm not much of a Dido fan though the only songs I've heard were the Roswell song or the Stan song.
2007-10-11 13:36:14
361.   D4P
I think I first heard Dido a few years ago when we first started watching old episodes of "Scrubs". J.D.'s brother used a Dido CD to woo Elliot.
2007-10-11 13:36:57
362.   fracule
357 My Dido cherry was popped when I accidentally took
my wife's ipod to the gym. Life for Rent
is a very good album by the way.
2007-10-11 13:37:00
363.   Daniel Zappala
How dare anyone deign to cover James Taylor.
2007-10-11 13:38:21
364.   Paul Scott
337

Hey, that was Angel (David Boreanaz). Sort of sad that his career is now appearing in videos. Joss should do something about that.

2007-10-11 13:39:21
365.   Andrew Shimmin
355- The first time I heard Rita Cosby on television, I thought my speakers had blown out. I still have to change the channel if she comes on, now, because I get an unassuageable desire to pop my ears, like when a plane is rapidly ascending or descending. Deeply unpleasant.
2007-10-11 13:39:39
366.   fracule
263 You'll have an issue with a lot of folk. Take a look at the list of 'Fire and Rain' covers on iTunes.
2007-10-11 13:41:16
367.   Bob Timmermann
I have Dido on her "Live from Carthage" album.

The fans tore down the place after that.

2007-10-11 13:41:28
368.   D4P
Wasn't James Taylor's "You've Got a Friend" a cover...?
2007-10-11 13:41:55
369.   Bob Timmermann
356
Thanks. I wasn't sure how the numbers had been calculated.
2007-10-11 13:45:14
370.   El Lay Dave
368 Yes, it is a Carole King original, on her "Tapestry" album. I believe that he appears on that album and that he covered it at her suggestion, IIRC.
2007-10-11 13:45:19
371.   Frip
359 The lemon juice down the leg bit was a low point for Plant, I admit.

James Taylor makes me want to curl up on the sofa like a girl on a rainy day with a Harlequin romance and a kitten on my lap.

2007-10-11 13:47:06
372.   El Lay Dave
357 I first heard Dido when "Thank You", and later "White Flag", were in heavy rotation on my wife's radio station. I know not of "Roswell", nor can I conjure up any audio memory of "Stan".
2007-10-11 13:49:38
373.   dzzrtRatt
I spent yesterday streaming a bunch of PJ Harvey from Rhapsody while I was working. She is great, especially "Stories from the City, Stories from the Sea."

Also Rhapsody prompted me to check out a band called Beirut, which is led by a 21-year-old kid who has apparently immersed himself in French and European folk music to produce his unique sound. Pretty good stuff.

This is why I disagree with Bruce Springsteen about radio. Radio might suck, but who cares anymore?

2007-10-11 13:50:35
374.   El Lay Dave
336 359 My Norwegian exchange student was quite amused by the "Immigrant Song" lyrics when I introduced her to the tune. Ah-ah-ah-AAAAH!
2007-10-11 13:53:39
375.   Jon Weisman
364 - Boreanaz has been the star of "Bones" for what, three years now?
2007-10-11 13:53:40
376.   Marty
Every friend of mine who has teenage kids say that the kids never listen to the radio. They learn about new music from Myspace, etc.
2007-10-11 13:59:19
377.   Eric Enders
Um, just checking, but you guys do know that Plant didn't write that lemon juice lyric, right?
2007-10-11 14:02:24
378.   Paul Scott
375 What is Bones?
2007-10-11 14:04:25
379.   Marty
377 It was Blind Melon Chitlin, right?
2007-10-11 14:05:03
380.   El Lay Dave
352 One nice thing about Dido is that she writes her own music and plays a lot of instruments.

Two words: Stevie. Wonder.

2007-10-11 14:10:10
381.   El Lay Dave
379 Robert Johnson, from "Traveling Riverside Blues". Some other recognizable borrowed lyrics in there too.

If your man gets personal, want to have your fun
If your man gets personal, want to have your fun
Just come on back to Friar's Point, mama, and barrelhouse all night long

I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee
I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee
But my Friar's Point rider, now, hops all over me

I ain't gon' to state no color, but her front teeth is crowned with gold
I ain't gon' to state no color, but her front teeth is crowned with gold
She got a mortgage on my body, now, lien on my soul

Lord, I'm goin' to Rosedale, gon' take my rider by my side
Lord, I'm goin' to Rosedale, gon' take my rider by my side
We can still barrelhouse, baby, 'cause it's on the river side

Now you can squeeze my lemon till the juice run down my leg
You can squeeze my lemon till the juice run down my leg
(that's what I'm talkin' about now)
But I'm goin' back to Friar's Point, if I be rockin' to my head

2007-10-11 14:12:16
382.   xaphor
Any fan of the band Faithless would know of Dido back when she was providing guest vocals for her brother who now, in turn, co-produces her solo work.
2007-10-11 14:14:58
383.   D4P
380
Dido is a singer-songwriter, in the mode of a Bob Dylan, or a Jewel, or a George Michael.
2007-10-11 14:16:05
384.   wireroom
374-I think that is part of the charm of Led Zeppelin for me. The lyrics are pompous and don't apologize for anything. Although they don't make sense a lot, they are pretty interesting.
Sometimes I just want to listen to a band with talent sing about chicks with big legs, Norse Gods, and Tangerines and rock at it. Man, I can't think of two polar opposites as far as theme goes as Dido and Led Zeppelin. Maybe I should go and buy a Dido record....
2007-10-11 14:17:01
385.   Frip
Not only that, but Jimmy Page was the lyricist on the first two albums, not Plant.
2007-10-11 14:19:45
386.   dzzrtRatt
377 Yes. The writer of many of LZ's blues tune also wrote for Cream and the Rolling Stones. His name was "Traditional, arr. by..."

Or they just stole chunks of lyrics. Interestingly, LZ covered "Travelling Riverside Blues," and used the lemon imagery in "The Lemon Song." A writer back then named John Mendelssohn used to have victious fun at the expense of white British bands that claimed to be able to play "da Blooz."

But, as T.S. Eliot said, mediocre artists borrow, and great artists steal. Led Zeppelin were genius criminals.

2007-10-11 14:20:30
387.   fanerman
One nice thing about Dido is that she writes her own music and plays a lot of instruments.

Shouldn't that be the rule and not the exception?

2007-10-11 14:20:35
388.   jasonungar07
I went out and bought Led Zepplin IV after watching Fast Times at Ridgemount High in Jr. High school only to get back from Music Plus to find that Kashmir wasn't on it.

Obviously I didn't get the joke at the time..

2007-10-11 14:22:39
389.   D4P
Shouldn't that be the rule and not the exception?

Absolutely. Instead, we're inundated with no-talent a**clowns who can't write, can't play, and can't sing.

2007-10-11 14:23:08
390.   Sub4Era
Quick question guys. Is Odalis Perez off our books after this year?
2007-10-11 14:23:17
391.   wireroom
385-yeah, I understand that the first few albums were mostly covers, but those songs they covered must have given them the courage to start writing songs about mythical gods and all of the other great themes that Zep decided to indulge in.
2007-10-11 14:23:36
392.   regfairfield
387 I think being able to play a lot of instruments is asuking a bit much.
2007-10-11 14:23:36
393.   El Lay Dave
383 I believe that is the first time I have seen "Bob Dylan" and "George Michael" in the same sentence.

How is Stevie Wonder not a singer-songwriter? It's no stretch to draw Wonder/Dylan comparisons.

2007-10-11 14:26:21
394.   Marty
381 I was joking. Blind Melon Chitlin is an old Cheech and Chong bit.
2007-10-11 14:26:41
395.   fanerman
392 Okay. How about 1 or 2?
2007-10-11 14:27:57
396.   Frip
391 Well, no, the first 2 Zepp albums had a few covers, but 90% were "original" numbers.

I never thought I'd find myself in a place where err...Dido was discussed for nearly 2 hours.

2007-10-11 14:28:39
397.   fanerman
Speaking of music, I'm really digging "In Rainbows," the new Radiohead album. It's the kind of album that gets better with repeated listens (like other Radiohead stuff). You can get it for free (or however much you feel like paying) at http://www.inrainbows.com/

They also happen to write their own songs and play lots of different instruments.

2007-10-11 14:29:54
398.   Eric Enders
383 "Dido is a singer-songwriter, in the mode of a Bob Dylan, or a Jewel, or a George Michael."

I believe the baseball equivalent of that statement would be, "Sean Casey is a baseball player, in the mode of an Albert Pujols, or a Bronson Arroyo, or a Neifi Perez."

2007-10-11 14:31:03
399.   El Lay Dave
394 Dave? Dave's not here, man.

Good one. I've forgotten about bit, and I think I read through your comment without quite picking up the full name, that is, my brain stopped at "Blind M-" /= "Robert Johnson".

2007-10-11 14:31:10
400.   Jon Weisman
378 - It's a TV show that comes on Fox before "House."
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-10-11 14:32:16
401.   El Lay Dave
399 ... that bit ...
2007-10-11 14:33:36
402.   El Lay Dave
398 I honestly did LOL at that.
2007-10-11 14:34:26
403.   jasonungar07
lol 398
2007-10-11 14:34:35
404.   Bob Timmermann
390
The Royals hold an option for Perez for 2008, which they are not likely to pick up. If the contract is bought out, the Dodgers and Royals split the $1.5 million tab.
2007-10-11 14:36:28
405.   wireroom
397-some client at work keeps insisting I download that Radiohead record. I like a few of those old albums like The Bends and OK Computer. So she says I will like this new record.
2007-10-11 14:37:03
406.   D4P
I think I'm gonna root for Ned to sign Neifi! this off-season to replace Lucille.
2007-10-11 14:39:07
407.   goofus
390 Please take your baseball question to a baseball blog. It should be obvious to you this isn't one....
2007-10-11 14:41:08
408.   das411
Sorry to interrupt Music Thoughts but, ahhhh, couldn't let this one slide:

290 - Jason Varitek career transactions?

June 2, 1994: Drafted by the Seattle Mariners in the 1st round (14th pick) of the 1994 amateur draft. Player signed April 20, 1995.

July 31, 1997: Traded by the Seattle Mariners with Derek Lowe to the Boston Red Sox for Heathcliff Slocumb.

Although I do believe this was before the M's also traded a prospect who would become David Ortiz, but that would take us back to that Woody Woodward convo from the other day!

2007-10-11 14:43:29
409.   Sub4Era
407. =) .404 beat you to it.
2007-10-11 14:45:15
410.   Gen3Blue
379 Blind Melon Chitlon is established legend now so no need to apologize. As is Mississippi blind white boy Dupree.
2007-10-11 14:45:32
411.   wireroom
-407 -408 I am sure, after tonight, there will be plenty of baseball to talk about and how somehow these games relate to the Dodgers future, but there was this few days where there were no games and the only news was about the Yankees.
2007-10-11 14:51:13
412.   Eric Enders
411 As opposed to all the other days in the season, when there are lots of games and the only news is about the Yankees.
2007-10-11 14:52:46
413.   wireroom
-412, exactly, so just give us a chance to hear some more about the Yankees.
2007-10-11 14:52:54
414.   Sub4Era
412. I'm almost happy to see them make the playoffs just to flame out.
2007-10-11 14:56:24
415.   Bob Timmermann
So how will Augie Ojeda's play affect Joe Torre's status as manager of the Yankees?
2007-10-11 14:56:31
416.   LogikReader
Man... Neifi Perez... is Juan Pierre in the future

The future, Logik?

2007-10-11 14:59:38
417.   fan 4 40 plus
off topic question, is there a Lakers blog that comes anywhere close to DT?
2007-10-11 15:00:55
418.   D4P
For the one or two of you who care, Randy Couture has resigned from the UFC.
2007-10-11 15:02:30
419.   Marty
The publisher here has started his own blog. I'm tempted to ask him his opinion of Juan Pierre.
2007-10-11 15:11:16
420.   dzzrtRatt
The singer who can write songs and play an instrument is a fairly recent mandate from the Gods of music.

It didn't apply, for example, to Frank Sinatra or Rosemary Clooney. Louis Armstrong played and sang but didn't write. Cole Porter and Irving Berlin were great songwriters, but only sang at parties.

If you're Ray Charles, or Bob Dylan, or Jerry Garcia, go ahead, sing, write, play, do it all. But not every good songwriter is a great singer and vice versa.

I know you're really attacking the artificial pop diva industry where the singer's primary contribution is appearing in the video, and everything else is done by highly-paid hacks with computers that can replace the singer's off-key croaking with something that sounds presentable.

But there was a time when recording artists had an array of great songs to choose from, great arrangers, great studio musicians and great producers, and all those different crafts were respected and contributed to some amazing recordings.

2007-10-11 15:13:27
421.   wireroom
speaking of tragedy, I just read that Beatle Paul has to pay 100+ million to his ex-wife. I wonder if he is still all about "love." Even a class act like Paul gets it like the rest of us.....
2007-10-11 15:15:46
422.   Marty
421 That only leaves him 1.4 billion. It's chump change to him.
2007-10-11 15:22:14
423.   fanerman
417 Forum Blue and Gold (linked right here under the "Less Dodgers, More L.A." on the sidebar) is excellent.
2007-10-11 15:22:42
424.   trainwreck
418
The heavyweight division has just become nothing in a matter of two days.

This is very saddening.

2007-10-11 15:26:35
425.   trainwreck
So Randy vs Fedor on New Year's Eve for M-1?
2007-10-11 15:34:10
426.   D4P
I know you're really attacking the artificial pop diva industry where the singer's primary contribution is appearing in the video, and everything else is done by highly-paid hacks with computers that can replace the singer's off-key croaking with something that sounds presentable.

Yep. And the singer gets hundreds of millions of dollars.

So Randy vs Fedor on New Year's Eve for M-1?

It looks like it's gonna happen sooner or later. Randy made it pretty clear that Fedor is the only challenge left for him.

2007-10-11 15:36:57
427.   trainwreck
Sportscenter just had a piece on A-Rod coming to LA. Good thing they talked to that LA Times writer who shall not be named.

He basically said that A-Rod will be an Angel and that there is zero chance he will be a Dodger because you cannot hit homeruns in Dodger Stadium or DH.

Way to pay attention to the facts, jerk.

2007-10-11 15:40:29
428.   fanerman
427 Sounds like an informative piece.
2007-10-11 15:48:20
429.   wireroom
A-Rod going to the Angels is waay different than A-Rod coming to the Dodgers. Everybody makes it sound like playing in LA is like a vacation. Maybe it is like that in Anaheim, but the pressure is on if you are a Dodger.
2007-10-11 15:50:02
430.   Bob Timmermann
429
There's pressure in playing for the Dodgers?

Plaschke and Simers are like fluffy kittens compared to the NY media.

2007-10-11 15:50:07
431.   regfairfield
427 Half right is better than they usually do.
2007-10-11 15:54:45
432.   Eric Enders
430 If Simers and Plaschke are fluffy kittens, then I want to be Dwight Schrute.
2007-10-11 15:55:26
433.   trainwreck
Oh, and he said Boras goes to every game in LA (I don't how he can be at both stadiums at the same time) and that after Angels game he winks at Arte Moreno.
2007-10-11 15:56:04
434.   Eric Enders
430 Also, when was the last time the NY media basically singlehandedly got a GM fired?
2007-10-11 15:56:51
435.   El Lay Dave
431 "half" is a word I often use to describe their work, but "right" is not the word I usually pair with it.
2007-10-11 15:57:07
436.   dzzrtRatt
Don't these people know the Dodgers were the first team ever to have four players hit 30+ home runs? Pre-juice?

If you can hit 'em out, you can hit 'em out of Dodger Stadium. It's not like Petco.

But I'm not even thinking about A-Rod until Scott Boras and Brian Cashman officially announce that the wedding is off. I expect Arod to retire a Yankee, or to be swallowed up when the Atlantic Ocean rises due to global warming. Whichever comes first.

2007-10-11 15:57:14
437.   wireroom
I would ask Milton Bradley, Gary Sheffield, Jose Offerman and Barry Bonds about what it is like to play in Dodger Stadium when the fans don't like you. If the Dodgers get A-Rod and then get swept in the NLDS with him hitting .156 I would bet he would hear it the same way that the Lakers and Dodgers hear it fromt he media and fans.
2007-10-11 15:58:35
438.   fanerman
434 But that one says more about our owner than our media.
2007-10-11 15:59:38
439.   trainwreck
437
Barry Bonds played for our most hated rivals. He really does not fit in with the other three.
2007-10-11 16:00:17
440.   Bob Timmermann
Which GM's ouster are you referring to?

Malone's or DePodesta's?

2007-10-11 16:01:00
441.   Eric Enders
440 DePodesta's. Although I guess you could make a case for Malone if you wanted to.
2007-10-11 16:03:53
442.   wireroom
and also Dan Evans
2007-10-11 16:04:25
443.   regfairfield
Maybe someone can help me on this. For a long time, Dodger Stadium was a pure pitchers park and pretty much supressed every offensive stat. Suddenly around 2001 or 2002 it continued to supress balls in play but the park factor for home runs suddenly spiked and has stayed that way since.

What happened that suddenly let balls start flying out of Dodger Stadium?

2007-10-11 16:06:51
444.   Andrew Shimmin
Not a bad piece on relief pitching in Slate (hey, love him as I do, you can only watch the Griddle's Augie Ojeda tribute so many times, waiting for the bleeding game to start):

http://www.slate.com/id/2175720/pagenum/all/

2007-10-11 16:09:38
445.   wireroom
439-yeah, but I doubt he took the kind of abuse I heard there anywhere else. Some of that stuff being said to him even offended me.
2007-10-11 16:10:21
446.   D4P
443
Did balls start flying out of stadiums in general, or just Dodger Stadium?
2007-10-11 16:11:03
447.   regfairfield
446 No, the park factor for home runs went up, so teams were hitting more home runs at Dodger Stadium relative to everywhere else.
2007-10-11 16:11:17
448.   wireroom
443-McCourt eradicating the foul territory that helped pitchers for decades wearing Dodger Blue. One of the worst moves in the history of the Dodgers.
2007-10-11 16:11:53
449.   trainwreck
443
Smug from the Lakers championships migrated and the Trojans have kept it afloat.

That or global warming.

2007-10-11 16:12:58
450.   regfairfield
448 That explains the shift in the last two years to making Dodger Staidum a slight hitters park, but what about the four years before that?
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-10-11 16:13:45
451.   Andrew Shimmin
446- Park factors are relative to other parks, aren't they? An increase in aggregate home runs shouldn't affect relative ratings. If new parks tended to be pitcher-friendlier, that would do it, but I thought on the new parks tended to be more homer-happy, not less.
2007-10-11 16:16:03
452.   wireroom
I would love to see a stat sheet on the last 10 years of homeruns hit after foul balls inside the diamond. Compare the last few years and the 4 before that.
2007-10-11 16:16:27
453.   LogikReader
The Dugout Club seats behind home plate covered up good deal of foul territory behind home plate... that started in 2000.
2007-10-11 16:16:57
454.   regfairfield
451 That's actually not true. I'm probably forgetting some but we have:

Petco - Massive pitchers park
SBC - Massive pitchers park
Phillies Park (forgot the name) - Massive hitters park
PNC - Neutral
Busch II - Slight pitchers park.

Any recent ones I'm forgetting?

2007-10-11 16:17:58
455.   trainwreck
Let's see:

Astros-Homer-happy
Reds-Homer-happy
Brewers-Homer-happy
Philadelphia-Homer-happy
Pirates-Pitcher-happy
Padres-Pitcher-happy
Giants-Pitcher-happy
Mariners-Pitcher-happy
Tigers-Pitcher-happy
D-Rays-Pitcher-happy?

2007-10-11 16:18:08
456.   Andrew Shimmin
RFK should count, too, though I don't remember what Olympic Stadium's PF was.
2007-10-11 16:18:24
457.   regfairfield
453 True, but I made it a point to count foul balls in that section when it went up and I noticed only one fell in about every four games (admiteddly very limited anecdotal evidence). Even so, why would that have an effect only on home runs?
2007-10-11 16:18:52
458.   regfairfield
456 It was a heavy pitchers park.
2007-10-11 16:19:39
459.   fanerman
443 Could the addition of a couple home-run hitting players cause a significant increase in the park factor by themselves? Weren't Shawn Green's 2 best years in 2001 and 2002? Given the dearth of Dodger home runs in the last couple years, I'm not sure how much sense that argument makes in terms of keeping the park factor high throughout the years.
2007-10-11 16:22:08
460.   regfairfield
459 Unless he was hitting far more home runs at home than on the road, it wouldn't affect things at all.
2007-10-11 16:24:00
461.   fanerman
I think the "new stadium argument" is worth looking into.
2007-10-11 16:24:29
462.   Andrew Shimmin
459- It would affect them if he had Nomarian home/away splits. Green hit more HRs on the road (+11 in '01, +6 in '02) than at DS, though, so his contribution would have been to drive the PF down, in those years.
2007-10-11 16:25:17
463.   Andrew Shimmin
Some day I'm going to say the same thing as regfairfield, but before he does. And the universe will collapse on itself. How I look forward to that day!
2007-10-11 16:31:53
464.   Marty
You want a pitcher's park? Go to Dodger Stadium in the 60s when the mound was higher and the fences were 10 feet further.
2007-10-11 16:44:18
465.   El Lay Dave
When did the home game start times for night games move to 7:05 P.M.? Earlier start times help remove PAs that happen after the heavier, marine layer influenced, night air rolls in, esp. May/June. I think the ball has always traveled fairly well in day games.

Brett Tomko has been in the NL West in '02 and '04 - '07.

2007-10-11 17:00:25
466.   fan 4 40 plus
423 thanks
2007-10-11 17:04:15
467.   Bob Timmermann
465
The night games have been starting at 7:10 for most days for about 15-20 years.
2007-10-11 17:18:13
468.   El Lay Dave
467 Has it been that long? Dang, I'm old.
2007-10-11 17:21:41
469.   Marty
I remember when the games started at 8 p.m. And we LIKED it!
2007-10-11 17:23:24
470.   Dodgers49
Lakers' owner: I'd consider trading Kobe Bryant

http://tinyurl.com/39hwg4

2007-10-11 17:31:18
471.   Dodgers49
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Juan Pierre is traded to Boston:

Kielty gets start over Drew in right field in ALCS opener

http://tinyurl.com/2elyjo

2007-10-11 17:37:54
472.   dodgerprofiles
Off topic...

I am looking for copies of the entire television and/or radio broadcats of the 1988 playoffs and world series.

Any suggestions?

2007-10-11 17:39:12
473.   Gen3Blue
464 And on top of that there was a lot more foul territory, which has recently been turned to seats. Though the last two years don't give us enough abs to embrace their hitters park assurance, I would guess Dodger Stadium is about hitter nuetral.
2007-10-11 17:40:22
474.   Gen3Blue
Yes ---Dodger Stadium could be a hitters park.
2007-10-11 17:42:16
475.   Daniel Zappala
Juan Pierre for Coco Crisp? One lightweight bat for another.
2007-10-11 17:47:17
476.   Robert Daeley
All the Dusty Baker fans here will be pleased to know he is apparently interviewing for the Reds job:

http://tinyurl.com/29o6kk

2007-10-11 18:00:14
477.   trainwreck
Are the Reds even trying to be any good?
2007-10-11 18:10:31
478.   Dodgers49
475. I was just imagining Pierre on a team with a manager that has the guts to bench him. :-)
2007-10-11 18:13:20
479.   Daniel Zappala
478 And likewise I would bet Little would bench Crisp in favor of Kemp in CF.
2007-10-11 18:26:14
480.   Gen3Blue
See that ball bounce fair: I love this game.
2007-10-11 18:44:02
481.   Daniel Zappala
Hey, at ESPN they have a chat with Rob Neyer in the GameCast app.
2007-10-11 19:07:45
482.   Scanman33
My latest column is here...

http://www.midvalleysportscentral.com/

I talk a little about Jim Tracy's creepiness.

2007-10-11 19:35:07
483.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
I don't know if this has been brought up here already, but is Tulowitzki one of the most overhyped rookies in recent memory? He may "play the game the right way," but he was not very good on the road this year.

Has there every been a Rockies player that did not hit way better at home than on the road?

2007-10-11 19:54:24
484.   regfairfield
483 Tulo had the fourth highest VORP (which is park adjusted) out of any rookie in baseball (behind Braun, Pence, and Guthrie) and plays amazing defense. While Ryan Braun should be rookie of the year, I don't think he's all that overhyped. No one said a thing about him until the Rockies went on their run.
2007-10-11 20:59:02
485.   Robert Daeley
Bye bye Killer Tomato and Roberto Hernandez:

http://tinyurl.com/24gfeu

2007-10-11 21:22:34
486.   underdog
I have fond memories of the Tomato based on his previous years and great pinch hits and will try to erase this year from my memory banks. As for Roberto Hernandez... only a few months too late.
2007-10-11 22:03:25
487.   bhsportsguy
Total Home Runs at Dodger Stadium 1997-2007
1997 - 161
1998 - 143
1999 - 194
2000 - 193
2001 - 189
2002 - 159
2003 - 140
2004 - 187
2005 - 170
2006 - 166
2007 - 141
2007-10-11 22:13:56
488.   regfairfield
487 That doesn't account for the strength of the team or the strength of the league. Of course there's going to me more bombs hit when we have Sheffield and Green versus Kent and Martin.
2007-10-11 22:40:44
489.   Eric Enders
I don't think Tulowitzki's overhyped at all. Besides, if we're going to start dismissing rookies who only hit well at home, then Matt Kemp needs to get in line.
2007-10-11 23:20:56
490.   Xeifrank
Congrats to the Rockies for taking Game #1 of the NLCS. The move of putting Taveras at the top of the order worked out for Hurdle. Taveras is the slap hitting CFer the Dodgers wish they had... that is someone who gets on base at a nice clip. vr, Xei
2007-10-12 00:14:58
491.   Eric Enders
For what it's worth, Taveras' career OBP is 10 points worse than Pierre's.
2007-10-12 00:18:38
492.   Eric Enders
I just noticed that Felipe Alou's BB-Reference page makes the claim that USC won the Rose Bowl in 2006.

Vince Young was unavailable for comment.

2007-10-12 07:41:10
493.   Bob Timmermann
492
In the Rose Bowl big wall of past winners and MVPs, the list stops with the 2005 Rose Bowl.

I think they must be trying to figure out how to find more room because they will run out of "giant wall" in 2016, if not earlier.

2007-10-12 07:41:59
494.   silverwidow
492 USC DID win the 2006 Rose Bowl - over Michigan.

USC/Texas falls under the 2005 season.

2007-10-12 07:57:33
495.   Bob Timmermann
494
The Rose Bowl itself lists the games as occurring during the year they were actually played.

http://www.tournamentofroses.com/history/gamescores.asp

That's just the way we roll in the SGV.

2007-10-12 07:58:05
496.   underdog
Yeah, sorry, Xei, I have to disagree. Taveras is arguably as bad or worse than Pierre in many areas. Just ask our resident Rockies' blogger what he thinks of him. They fared better this season when Taveras was hurt and Spilbourghs filled in for him.
2007-10-12 08:04:46
497.   Bumsrap
Left field at Fenway Park is the best place for someone like Pierre to play. All he would have to do is hit better than Manny to get the gig. I think Pierre would look great in CF for Boston.
2007-10-12 08:10:20
498.   regfairfield
Now you just need to convince Boston.
2007-10-12 08:17:02
499.   Xeifrank
496. I just took a quick look at this years numbers to do a quick dirty comparison of the two. I know Pierre played in a worse hitters park, but Taveras' OBP and OPS was quite a bit higher than Juan's and at $400k for one year, which of the two would you rather have? Niether's not a choice. :)

vr, Xei

2007-10-12 08:20:45
500.   underdog
499 Neither. :-P

True, one is cheaper, so looking at it that way...

But I've watched Taveras play enough to know he's not much of a pleasing option.

497 Okay, Pierre for Okajima. Done!

Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2007-10-12 08:22:12
501.   D4P
Do the Rockies and DBacks have any Boras clients...?
2007-10-12 08:24:42
502.   Hythloday
I'm pretty sure Holliday is a Boras client
2007-10-12 08:31:48
503.   Andrew Shimmin
502- He is. He fired Jot Hartley after the 2005 season to go with Boras. I wish I had an agent named Jot Hartley.
2007-10-12 08:33:11
504.   Andrew Shimmin
Willy Taveras and Rodrigo Lopez are the other Rockies represented by Boras.
2007-10-12 08:34:52
505.   D4P
So, I guess Holliday will win a WS with the Rockies, then leave for a big payday somewhere else.
2007-10-12 08:36:28
506.   Jon Weisman
Rushed NPUT.

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