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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Field and Stream
2007-10-15 10:47
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Ballots have been tallied for the 2007 The Scouting Report, By the Fans, For the Fans," with the Dodger contingent available here.

Comments (362)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-15 12:36:37
1.   Humma Kavula
If we ask nicely, can we get the breakdown on Juan Pierre? I'm not surprised that he ranks near the bottom on the agreement scale.
2007-10-15 13:00:28
2.   fanerman
According to Wikipedia, the first Defenestration of Prague occurred in 1419. The second and more common usage of the term "Defenestration of Prague" refers to the 1618 event that began (or helped begin) the Thirty Years War.
2007-10-15 13:04:20
3.   Bob Timmermann
I would lock the windows if I were visiting Prague.
2007-10-15 13:13:51
4.   Andrew Shimmin
Hey, looky there! A Toaster FAQ, right next to "Post a comment." Looks good.
2007-10-15 13:15:10
5.   Andrew Shimmin
Ooh--it's a shape shifter. It was "Questions?" a second ago. Now it's "Help."
2007-10-15 13:15:47
6.   Sam DC
Yes, but it doesn't explain who Lucile II is.
2007-10-15 13:16:31
7.   Sam DC
Next thing you'll be popping up as Bokonon42.
2007-10-15 13:36:21
8.   Marty
Boston fans really hate Eric Gagne:

http://tinyurl.com/yrvetb

2007-10-15 13:37:40
9.   ToyCannon
Speaking of ballots the TrueBlue best Dodger Moment of 2007 has closed. The winner is
http://www.truebluela.com/story/2007/10/15/163540/09
2007-10-15 13:43:04
10.   fanerman
8 Wow. That's a lot of concentrated hate.

Someone should start a group called "Defenestrate Eric Gagne."

2007-10-15 13:45:16
11.   Bob Timmermann
Just think of what would have happened to Ralph Branca if he pitched in 2007 instead of 1951.

Even Scott Norwood got less hatred.

2007-10-15 13:46:19
12.   gpellamjr
8 I like "Eric Gagne is the worst reliever ever."

I'll give them Hendrickson for Gagne.

2007-10-15 13:49:01
13.   LogikReader
To say Red Sox Nation is being unfair to Gagne is saying you can get wet by jumping into the ocean.

---

I like that Best Dodger Moment Poll, TC. Kuo's bat flip was awesome, and the three home runs that preceded it weren't bad either :)

2007-10-15 13:49:50
14.   LogikReader
I guess even the Sox can have their own Tomko, muahaha.

Go Tribe!

2007-10-15 13:50:59
15.   Bob Timmermann
Brett Tomko still managed to ruin TWO team's seasons. That takes skill.

The Rockies should vote him a World Series share.

2007-10-15 13:55:19
16.   dzzrtRatt
Gurnick says KABC will have a Dodger Talk show -- on Sunday nights.

Unclear if that means games will end and go immediately to political talk. "Covering the Bases" was extremely bad, but the post-game call-in on KFWB evolved into a pretty good indicator of fans' shifting views regarding PVLs, prospects and Little/Colletti.

Is it possible the Dodgers doesn't want anything like that, despite the promotional value? The owner sent one of his minions on a futile mission to impose "balance" on KFWB's post-game chat.

Maybe Comrade McCourt has decided to defenestrate post-game callers.

2007-10-15 14:02:10
17.   Jacob L
Well, post-game Dodger Talk has been, for about 90% of its existence, pretty pointless. More-so now that there are so many more and better outlets to discuss the Dodgers. Nevertheless, I think having a call-in show is pretty much standard procedure for sports teams. If the Dodgers are revisiting that assumption in the bigger picture, great. If they are just reacting to their problems from last year, that's lame, and not entirely surprising, given who we're dealing with. No matter how silly Dodger Talk can get, going directly into standard KABC programming would be worse.
2007-10-15 14:16:29
18.   regfairfield
While Dodger Talk really only serves to make me upset at whatever absurd views Dodger fans have, it's always been a post game ritual of mine to throw it on for the drive home, so I'm sad to see it go.
2007-10-15 14:21:35
19.   dzzrtRatt
17 You're right, it's not scintillating programming. The information here and elsewhere is much richer.

But there's another side to being a fan, the sense of celebration of a great win, or an individual player's accomplishment, or the kvetching over a loss, or speculation about an upcoming personnel change. You don't necessarily learn anything, but it's kind of cathartic, especially if you're driving home from being at the game. I like hearing what "average fans" have to say.

Most sports talk radio is a)syndicated, so it's disconnected from local fans; b) schtick-ridden, with hosts getting off on themselves; or c)if local, dominated by discussion of the Lakers, which to me is more soap opera than sports.

One hour a night during the season where fans only talk about the local baseball team...is such a bad thing to want?

2007-10-15 14:21:52
20.   bhsportsguy
18 I think it has more to with sponsors and what KABC feels is in their best interests.

Post game shows are usually just opportunities to vent so probably they felt a weekly show that can be sold to sponsors is better than some random show that goes on for some unknown amount of time after each game.

I just hope they have some Dodger trivia on Sundays.

2007-10-15 14:23:41
21.   bhsportsguy
19 Also, and I don't think you can discount this, places like DT and other blogs have taken over whatever purpose talkradio had.
2007-10-15 14:26:39
22.   Disabled List
8 Bullpen arsonists arouse the pitchfork-waving tendencies in baseball fans like nothing else. Here's a sample of just the ones that are safe for Rule 1:

- Americans for Deporting Eric Gagne
- Eric Gagne is the worst pitcher EVER!!!
- Eric Gagne is the worst thing to happen to the Sox this year
- Gagne Should NEVER Touch A Baseball Ever Again!
- Killing Eric Gagne is justifiable homicide
- Eric Gagne Should Consider Suicide

I really can't stand Red Sox fans.

2007-10-15 14:36:13
23.   Linkmeister
Bush Derangement Syndrome has seemingly been replaced by Gagne Derangement syndrome, at least in the Northeast.
2007-10-15 14:37:34
24.   ToyCannon
18
Can you flip me an email I can contact you with?
2007-10-15 14:41:07
25.   ToyCannon
This shall pass.
2007-10-15 14:47:56
26.   Marty
This is my favorite one:
Hang Gagne (Description: If this group reaches 1,000,000 people the red sox have agreed to hang Eric Gagne. Also, if this group reaches 10, JD Drew will be shot.)
2007-10-15 14:50:49
27.   LAT
No Dodger Talk is bad on every level. First, it breaks with tradition and makes for a boring ride home.
Second, its really censorship or whatever you want to call it but the show was taken off the air because it was critical of the organization.
Third, it can only mean more Charlie, Rick and God forbid, A. Martinez.
Fourth, the Sunday show will rarely be directly after a game (most Sundays are day games) so the callers will not be worked up making for a boring show.
2007-10-15 14:57:53
28.   Jacob L
Sox fans don't really need to worry about Gagne, anymore, do they? I highly doubt he'll be in any more high leverage situations this postseason, and I doubt even more that he'll be back next year. Plus, their pen is plenty deep enough that using him in mop up roles only will barely hurt them, if at all.

They won the division. At most his impact on the ALCS will be 2 base runners in Game 2. What, exactly, are they trying to blame him for?

2007-10-15 14:58:14
29.   ToyCannon
It has been years since I've listened to Dodger Talk, I don't see it as a bad thing.
The rating are low, the Dodger ratings are low, why should KABC be forced to carry programming at a loss?
2007-10-15 14:59:57
30.   regfairfield
24 andrew.n.grant at aero dot org
2007-10-15 15:04:44
31.   Sam DC
My fave: "Eric Gagne is The Lost Hanson Brother!"
2007-10-15 15:07:54
32.   LAT
Wow, that's some serious hate for Gagne.
Hard to believe it was only three years ago that the entire stadium rocked and roared at the opening of the pen gate. TV stations forewent commercial time to watch him jog in and take warm-up pitches. Today, fans slump in disappointment when he is handed the ball.

I feel a little sorry for him but not much. I appreciate the electricity he gave us. It was second to none. But his decision to follow the money notwithstanding his professed loyalty to LA only served to remind me that its a business. So I simply view his decision to go to Boston as a poor business decision.

2007-10-15 15:13:54
33.   ToyCannon
32
Except he chose to go to Texas and ended up in Boston. At the end of the year you have love what Texas did in flipping Tex and Gagne.
2007-10-15 15:14:41
34.   Xeifrank
FYI, 2008 ZIPS projections are coming out over at the BTF. They haven't released projections for the Dodgers yet, but the hitting projections for the Giants sure look terrible. vr, Xei
2007-10-15 15:16:24
35.   LAT
29. If KABC elected not to carry the programming for independent business reasons, I have no problem with that. But if it was the result of influence by the Dodger organization because they didn't like what people had to say last year than I disagree with that approach.

Not to mention do we really need another hour of political talk radio. As if the host will come up with an original thought during that hour that has not been discussed at nauseam all day on twenty other stations.

2007-10-15 15:18:23
36.   LAT
33. Did'nt he have a no trade clause in Texas. I don't know but I assumed he had to sign-off on the trade to Boston.
2007-10-15 15:18:38
37.   LogikReader
33

That reminds me, TC, do you think the Texiera trade had anything to do with Scheurholz stepping down (or up I guess, to the Presidency)?

I'm eager to see if this trade of massive talent to the Rangers won't come back to bite Atlanta someday.

2007-10-15 15:19:33
38.   Xeifrank
I think Gagne is getting an unfair amount of blame for the Game 2 loss the other night. Sure, he didn't pitch great, but he got a strike out, gave up a single and had a walk, not exactly terrible, and not exactly Papelbon either. :) There were a few other Red Sox pitchers that need to share in the blame for the Game 2 loss. If you look at the win probability added (WPA) for the Red Sox pitchers, Gagne was far from being the worst.

Lopez -0.390
Schilling -0.355
Delcarmen -0.150
Gagne -0.080
Lester -.029

and Lester's WPA is not that bad because the game was pretty much out of reach before he emptied his gas can.

vr, Xei

2007-10-15 15:21:51
39.   Xeifrank
34. I have no problem with any version of Dodger Talk. It may not be that great of a show, but atleast they are talking about the Dodgers. To me, it is much better than the garbage that is on day time sports talk radio. They hardly ever talk about the Dodgers, or even sports in general. They spend most of their program talking about stupid soap opera stuff, or have people calling in reading faxes, or making fun of Miss South Carolina, when US Americans is a valid term.
vr, Xei
2007-10-15 15:21:54
40.   regfairfield
37 I think it was a brilliant move on his part. He realized he had nothing left in the pipeline so he stepped down before his legacy could be tarnished.

Unless one of the guys he moved becomes a superstar, no one will remember that he traded the guy.

2007-10-15 15:38:00
41.   Sagehen
These "scouting" reports, coupled with watching the Rockies, just reminds me of what I truly miss in the Dodgers -- decent defense. How much better would the pitching have appeared if there were some range at secondbase and more than one arm in the outfield? Bring on the years of Abreu, Kemp, and Ethier!
2007-10-15 15:39:41
42.   Sagehen
I have no problem with only having the call-in show once a week. The nightly show was redundant with each caller saying the same thing. I hope there's something good for the drive home, though, some reasonable post-game show, as opposed to what we've had. Alas, can we please bring back Ross Porter?
2007-10-15 15:40:48
43.   Jon Weisman
35 - Why would the Dodgers push to throw out a show that encourages interest in their team based on one bad and incredibly overblown experience with a host employed by a radio station they no longer have a contract with?

It wasn't 100 percent clear to me that postgame Dodger talk won't happen on KABC, but even if that's the case, it seems extremely unlikely that it was the Dodgers' idea to kill it.

2007-10-15 15:41:17
44.   regfairfield
41 Assuming Nomar goes ASAP next year, the Dodgers D should be pretty strong with Kent being the only hole out there.
2007-10-15 16:04:55
45.   LAT
43. If KABC put the knife in DodgerTalk that is their prerogative. Of course, causation remains an issue but given the controversy over last year's show and Josh's handling of it (even though I think he usually does an outstanding job and enjoy his enthusiasm for the team) it does not seem like a large leap to assume the Dodgers played a role in this decision. I freely acknowledge I am speculating but if the team did wield some influence in the decision not to continue with the show I would be disappointed.

As an aside, if KABC had something better to put in that time slot I imagine they would have. I guess they are hoping that fans who come for the game will stick around for the talk radio.

2007-10-15 16:05:53
46.   jasonungar07
My impression of Ross on Dodgertalk;

"yep"
"uh-huh"
"mm-hmm"
"welp"

and

"Yeah... uh-huh... mm-hmm... welp ok, thanks for calling"

2007-10-15 16:10:50
47.   jtrichey
Just to touch back on our Eric Gagne/Boston fan discussion of a few days ago. This is from Bill Simmons column today. Histrionics perhaps?

F. Sometimes in sports, you just know. When Eric Gagne emerged from the bullpen before the 11th, he should have just been dressed like one of the killers in "Scream." You know somebody stinks when I'm getting e-mails before he has even thrown a single pitch with subject headings like "WHY?????????" and "KILL ME!!!!!!" These post-collapse e-mails summed it up:

Van A. in Mass: I realize that, given the pitchers who'd already been used, that Gagne was technically our best reliever yet. But the guy had two months to prove himself to be reliable in any fashion, and failed miserably in every test. Would I have been enthused if Javier Lopez had started off the inning for us? Of course not. But I wouldn't have been conceding defeat like everyone else who has even remotely followed this team since the trading deadline.

Bob in Boston: Is Eric Gag-me becoming Terry Francona's Rex Grossman? This guy has been terrible, but yet he keeps throwing him out there. "Eric is a valuable guy in our bullpen, and I will continue to throw him out there." Sounds A LOT like "Rex is our quarterback."

Melanie in Boston: My plan for the Red Sox to win the ALCS involves drugging Eric Gagne and putting him on a plane to some remote African jungle and stealing his passport so he can never come back.

Alex in West Virginia: Why is Eric Gagne even on the postseason roster? He's got the word GAG right in his FREAKING name!!!

Gene in Oregon: What was your level of concern when you saw Gagne coming in from the bullpen in the 11th? Would you relate it to getting pulled over by the cops with a bag of weed in the car or accidently killing a hooker?

Gene in Yakima, Wash.: When I heard Gagne was warming up in the bullpen in the bottom of the 10th, I figured it could only be a ploy for Francona to motivate Mike Lowell to get a hit. Lowell had to realize that if Gagne was up, it was now or never at the plate. When Gagne made his entrance, I knew my best option at that time was to just turn it off and go to bed. I'm not sure why but I forced myslef to watch yelling the whole time, "I knew it, I knew it."

Will N. in Brooklyn, N.Y.: I understand why Gagne chose number 83, but haven't we seen enough to realize there's some seriously bad karma going on with that non-baseball, spring training number? Can't they switch him to double zero? Can't you envision him being more menacing and effective spoting 00 on his back? Yes, I realize Gagne has officially made me lose my mind.

2007-10-15 16:11:37
48.   Jon Weisman
45 - I understand that you would be disappointed if the Dodgers used their influence to kill the show. But there's really no reason to think that they did. They had problems with the host, not the show. Fan criticism of the team was not invented in 2007 on DodgerTalk.
2007-10-15 16:16:47
49.   underdog
This Gagne-bashing nonsense from Boston is making me practically teary-eyed with rage and wistfulness (if you can experience those two things at the same time). Talk about scapegoating. Gosh. Yeah, as said above, all they need is a few months with Tomdrickson and Blowberto Hernandez to really get a reality check.

Gagne truly had one of the greatest - if not THE greatest - runs a relief pitcher's ever had not too long ago. But whatever, baseball's all about the here and now I guess.

2007-10-15 16:27:03
50.   Hallux Valgus
49 yes, but it happened on the west coast, so it didn't really count. I'm really getting tired of reading things like this:

"Second, no game should start later than 6 p.m. ET. Baseball maintains this will hurt West Coast fans, but trust me: They'll find a way to watch in California, dude. My Eastern bias might be showing, but the remainder of the country is better served by earlier starts."

um, both of the NL teams are from the WEST, so we should hurt they're loyal fanbases so more people in Delaware can watch? sucks on that.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-15 16:27:16
51.   regfairfield
49 True, but it's not like any other teams fans are immune from this sort of thing. How long did it take for us to throw similarly underperforming players under the bus? Heck, look at how many people have thrown LaRoche under the bus after a similar sample size. This isn't just a Boston phenomonon, it's something almost every single sports fan does.
2007-10-15 16:30:29
52.   underdog
50 Where's that quote from? I stopped reading the Gagne bashing thread after awhile because my nerves couldn't take it.

51 True, many sports fans are in the here and now/overreaction school. But still the blithe way they are completely ignoring any of Gagne's history, or even the facts, is grating on me. But yes, many fans in all sports tend to overreact with emotions.

I don't know that many Dodger fans who want to throw LaRoche under the bus - some are ready to give up on him, most are not though... (Not that this is exactly the same thing as the Gagne situation but I get your point.)

2007-10-15 16:30:47
53.   Jon Weisman
51 - Exactly. Gagne is their Baez/Carter/Hernandez/etc. It's not complicated. They don't care that he was great in Los Angeles - that he was much more than Baez/Carter/Hernandez/etc. in Los Angeles. If Mariano Rivera came to the Dodgers and imploded, most people in L.A. would be just as unhappy to see him in a game.
2007-10-15 16:30:55
54.   Andrew Shimmin
You know what else is good? Hazelnuts. I could go for some hazelnuts, right now.
2007-10-15 16:33:09
55.   Bob Timmermann
50
There are people who live in Delaware?
2007-10-15 16:34:24
56.   Hallux Valgus
50 Mike Freeman's sportsline.com column. Not a Gagne piece, rather a "my kids can't watch the late games" piece.

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10410210

2007-10-15 16:35:41
57.   Hallux Valgus
55 So I understand. I've never met any of them. I have a theory that Delaware is ccompletely made up for the purposes of tax breaks for corporations.
2007-10-15 16:38:43
58.   D4P
54
You can thank Oregon for hazelnuts (aka "filberts")
2007-10-15 16:40:19
59.   Jon Weisman
55 - Bob violates rules 3, 4, 7 and 8 in one bon vivant shot!
2007-10-15 16:41:05
60.   Xeifrank
I had to look up the (regular season) stats to see how poorly Gagne has done in a Red Sox uniform. I see that in 18-2/3, he only gave up one home run, struck out 22 and allowed 9 walks. The home runs allowed has been good, the strike outs has been good, the walk rate is a little high. These are the fielding independent stats. What has killed him, is that he has allowed 25 non home-run hits (singles, doubles and triples). This has ballooned his ERA to 6.75 and WHIP to 1.88. Anyone care to do the math to find out what kind of BABIP he has given up in a BoSox uniform?
vr, Xei
2007-10-15 16:43:00
61.   Marty
I enjoy the Gagne bashing. It makes me laugh. I'm a bad person I guess.
2007-10-15 16:44:01
62.   underdog
(Sorry to bring up another classic Simpsons moment but couldn't resist...)

Homer: The Simpsons are going to Delaware!
Lisa: I want to see Wilmington!
Bart: I want to visit a screen door factory!

2007-10-15 16:53:08
63.   Bob Timmermann
I may have to take a vacation to Delaware now just like the one I took to Oregon.

Not because I want to go there, but really just to keep people here from criticizing me.

So how many weeks do I need to see all of Delaware?

2007-10-15 16:53:54
64.   Jon Weisman
60 - I read somewhere his Beantown BABIP was over .400
2007-10-15 16:54:34
65.   Jon Weisman
63 - It's not just about the sights. It's also about basking in its luxury.
2007-10-15 16:56:58
66.   CajunDodger
57
Deleware is also the only state in the union (I believe) that allows banks to double cycle their credit card interest calculations. If you ever get a card solicitation from Wilmington, DE, throw it away.
2007-10-15 16:58:08
67.   Andrew Shimmin
Gagne posted a .449 BABIP in Boston this year. The choker.
2007-10-15 16:58:28
68.   dzzrtRatt
Here's KABC's version of the story:

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

It's ambiguous about post-game Dodger Talk. They talk about pre- and post-game shows, but perhaps that's just referring to Rick and Charlie's territory.

You can listen to KABC live from anywhere in the world, by the way. I wonder if MLB will force them to turn off the website feed during games.

2007-10-15 16:59:08
69.   dzzrtRatt
67 What's an average BABIP?
2007-10-15 17:01:15
70.   bhsportsguy
68 Guaranteed that they will not be allowed to broadcast the games over the website. MLB has two other outlets for radio broadcasts, their own MLB.com site and XM satellite. It can be argued that straight over-the-air broadcasts are less valuable now then they were when the Dodgers signed their last deal.
2007-10-15 17:02:20
71.   gibsonhobbs88
53 - Gagne left any good karma behind by nodding his head to anything Boras told him and left the team that embraced him and was loyal through two years of injuries. Stick that in your glossy pages, Boras!!
On a lighter note, today was the grandest day in LA sports history, 19 years ago.
I remember my wife and I sitting in the 2nd row of the right field bleachers. It was my 2nd WS game and her first. She dropped her nachos on her way back to our seat as the anthem was starting (good omen):).
We saw Mickey Hatcher hit a 2 run home run in the first to take a 2-0 lead. Then we saw Conseco(original Juice boy) hit that laser off the CF camera for a grand salami to take a 4-2 lead. I remember seeing an obnoxious drunk LA fan start a fight with an A's fan in the top of the 8th of a 4-3 game and get taken to Dodger jail. I remember seeing fans leave after the bottom of the 8th was over. I said it's not over yet and one fan said "it sure is, Eckersley is pitching". I told my wife, I hope the Dodgers come back just to teach those fans a lesson." Cmon! Leave a WS game on a Staurday night down just 4-3. Y'all know the rest. We stayed and partied in the stadium and at the Dodger players parking gate until we were one of the last 5 cars in the parking lot. What a glorious night that I will treasure forever.
2007-10-15 17:02:32
72.   Andrew Shimmin
Around .300. Gagne's career average BABIP is .288. His expected BABIP, given the line drive rate he surrendered in Boston was .366. So, he was getting hit hard, but he was also mighty unlucky.
2007-10-15 17:05:57
73.   bhsportsguy
72 To add on to that comment.

http://tinyurl.com/2todnm

2007-10-15 17:06:58
74.   Sam DC
If you take the train from DC to parts north (well, from Balt to Philly more narrowly put), you get to roll through Delaware. In Wilmington, I think, there's a nice mural of a humpback whale visible from where the train stops on the platform.
2007-10-15 17:07:42
75.   regfairfield
72 It should also be noted that there's no correlation (R = -.03) year to year for line drive rates for pitchers, which is probably why BABIP is so random.
2007-10-15 17:10:27
76.   Jon Weisman
71 - Let's not overstate the Dodgers' "loyalty" to Gagne. They were every bit as loyal as their contract required them to be and no more. They "embraced" him only as much as his performance made him imposssible not to embrace.

Gagne got hurt in the line of duty, didn't have any management with the sense to realize he shouldn't have been trying to get back to the mound so quickly, and was underpaid for his best seasons with the Dodgers. I'm not nominating Gagne for sainthood - he clearly followed the money - but it's not as if the Dodgers are victims.

2007-10-15 17:10:28
77.   Marty
I've taken that train. But I don't remember a whale.
2007-10-15 17:11:04
78.   D4P
Anyone know how to get right-click menus to put the underscore under one of the letters (e.g. underscore under the "w" in "New" if you right-click on the desktop)...? I'm using Windows Vista (for the first time).
2007-10-15 17:12:48
79.   regfairfield
78 Could you do that in other versions? In windows programming, you have to configure that in code so it's not user editable as far as I know.
2007-10-15 17:14:36
80.   D4P
79
I can't remember if it's something I've always told Windows 2000 and XP to do, or whether it was a default. I do know that it's apparently not a default in Vista.
2007-10-15 17:15:14
81.   gibsonhobbs88
76 - True. Point made! I was more referring to as how the fans embraced him here also. There was such an energy when he was coming to the mound.
2007-10-15 17:15:48
82.   dzzrtRatt
71 "Gagne left any good karma behind by nodding his head to anything Boras told him and left the team that embraced him and was loyal through two years of injuries."

Roughly 100 percent of ballplayers would have done the same thing. You sign a contract for two years and the guy is injured for two years, that's the team's problem (usually offset by insurance). When Gagne was under contract, I never heard of him refusing to participate in appropriate therapy or drills to restore his ability to pitch. In that sense, he fulfilled his contract. His unavailability was aggravated by his insistence on pitching for the Dodgers before he was physically ready. The so-called hometeam discount some players pretend to offer isn't a nod to the fans or the team; it's generally because the player is getting some other benefit from staying in that market -- family, business, merchandizing, or whatever.

Also, if the medical report on Gagne last winter was "he won't be able to pitch again until September 2007, if then," do you honestly think the Dodgers would have sentimentally given him a contract anyway? Or, if the Dodgers didn't have Saito and Broxton or any other decent closer possibilities, don't you think the Dodgers might have been more likely to meet Gagne's price?

2007-10-15 17:16:14
83.   bhsportsguy
76 This is the nature of the game, especially with the way players are paid when they first come up, the advantage is entirely with the ball club and in Gagne's case, the Dodgers also had an arbitration hearing.

Unfortunately, when they were able to negotiate a contract, he got hurt. But that was the risk both sides took to have a cost certain until he became a free agent.

The only thing that I slightly disagree with Jon is that it was actually in both parties interest that Gagne try to pitch during his contract period. If he doesn't pitch, the Dodgers lose out entirely on their deal and for Gagne, he needs to show prospective teams that he can pitch.

Unless the player is young and you have him under contol or he is at the beginning of a multi-year contract, I think how you manage injuries is a case by case issue and that both parties will every reason to try and play through it.

That may not be wisest thing to do but I can certainly understand why that happens.

2007-10-15 17:16:57
84.   Sam DC
Marty -- scroll down to #44.

http://tinyurl.com/32q3ey

2007-10-15 17:18:19
85.   gibsonhobbs88
2-0 Tribe in the bottom of the third! K-Lo hits a home run off Dice-K. We could have kept him for 1 more year for a fraction of the price we paid for JP and could of waited for a real CF.
2007-10-15 17:25:50
86.   LAT
While the boos and jeers in Boston may be particularly vitriolic, don't cry for Eric Gagne. Sure we would cut him a lot more slack in LA but he would be mowing his lawn right now, not 7 games away from a WS ring. Assuming he gets one, six months from now he and the fans will remember the ring not the boos. I'm guessing he would still rather be in Boston for now. . . but let's check back in a week.
2007-10-15 17:32:00
87.   Jacob L
Hey, am I the last guy to find out that Dusty Baker signed with the Reds? Oh, happy day!
2007-10-15 17:33:13
88.   Bob Timmermann
86
Jesse Orosco has a 1988 Dodgers World Series ring.

I don't think he's giving it back.

And in 1986, he was the Mets hero.

2007-10-15 17:33:37
89.   Bob Timmermann
87
Did you also know that Cal lost Saturday?
2007-10-15 17:33:46
90.   Bluebleeder87
James Loney scoring SO high in "first step quickness" shocks me, I really feel his average to below average in that category. I think he has really really good hands though, I was kind of surprised in the first step quickness one.
2007-10-15 17:37:37
91.   Bob Timmermann
Jacob L to me on October 6 at the Rose Bowl:

"It would be like Cal to lose to Oregon State next week."

2007-10-15 17:38:17
92.   Jacob L
89 Knew it before happened, as you'll recall. Thanks for brining it up, though. I appreciate that.

I'm in some kind of time warp.

2007-10-15 17:38:50
93.   fanerman
AHH. Please stop talking about that game. I was there. It still hurts.
2007-10-15 17:39:02
94.   Jacob L
91 If only I was that good at predicting Cal wins.
2007-10-15 17:40:10
95.   Bob Timmermann
Run Kevin, run!
2007-10-15 17:42:28
96.   Bluebleeder87
46

Yeah, he kind brushed callers away, I remember that very clearly. I don't know maybe he was just really tired after during pre-game stuff, then the game & then the after-game call in show, who knows.

2007-10-15 17:46:59
97.   Bob Timmermann
Change with the Angels:

http://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/843631.html

2007-10-15 17:50:35
98.   Jacob L
95 Was I not sufficiently sensitive to the Bruins travails?
2007-10-15 17:51:59
99.   fanerman
95 Who is Kevin?
2007-10-15 17:55:54
100.   Bob Timmermann
98
You were more sensitive than Alan Alda!

95
Kevin Riley.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-15 17:56:45
101.   fanerman
Oh. Thanks, Bob. Thanks.
2007-10-15 17:59:51
102.   Bob Timmermann
101
Remember, I have a UC Berkeley diploma.

And I got to watch the other school I have a diploma from score 6 points against one of the worst teams in the country.

2007-10-15 18:34:38
103.   Sam DC
Christian Slater's best movie: Pump Up the Volume, Heathers, other?

Sorry, so far, the ALCS game isn't as compelling as I'd hoped.

2007-10-15 18:45:44
104.   Bob Timmermann
103
It's "The Contender."

But I think the ALCS game is compelling. You just don't like it because of your West Coast bias.

2007-10-15 18:53:19
105.   Bluebleeder87
76

Really really good point Jon, if I was 13 years old I would have cried reading that though...

2007-10-15 18:58:33
106.   Sam DC
It's compelling again. I'm locked in.

The Contender -- Joan Allen? I guess I need to see.

2007-10-15 18:59:29
107.   Bob Timmermann
106
The movie itself isn't all that good, but Christian Slater is not annoying in it.
2007-10-15 19:10:52
108.   Dodgers49
97. >> Angels owner Arte Moreno, who inherited Stoneman when he bought the team in May 2003, signed him to a contract extension two months later. <<

One man, who had never owned a baseball team before, inherited a GM and gave him an extension. Another man, who had never owned a baseball team before, inherited a GM and fires him three weeks later. It is this contrast in styles that caught my eye from the beginning.

2007-10-15 19:14:00
109.   Gen3Blue
I remember when that survey was done.
Although I haven't perused it to the point of rating individual players yet, I have to say that the coefs. of agreement, or whatever they are, are very impressive. Whatever this group of purportedly amatuer fans felt ( and I hold the people of DT in rather high esteem) it seems to me to be very consistent. This is significant in a survey like this!
2007-10-15 19:15:36
110.   bhsportsguy
108 Stoneman's team had just won a World Series. Dan Evans biggest coup at that moment was dumping Kevin Brown on the Yankees.
2007-10-15 19:21:28
111.   Dodgers49
110. True. But the bigger problem for me was not just that he fired him. But that he fired him with just two weeks left before the start of spring training. I would have expected a new guy coming in to this situation to at least wait the coming season out to observe what he had. And this doesn't have anything to do with DePo. DePo would have still been available the next off season. To just barge in and immediately start firing people just seemed wrong headed to me.
2007-10-15 19:22:01
112.   Gen3Blue
Oh, come-on, that looks like the back end of our bullpen. Throw four balls in a row so the guy can't get a hit!
2007-10-15 19:28:25
113.   dzzrtRatt
I'd be okay with Ned Colletti "mentoring" Logan White or Kim Ng as a "team consultant."
2007-10-15 19:40:19
114.   Andrew Shimmin
The Contender was horrible. It was just bad, until it got to the ending. That's when it crossed over into horrible. Reading the transcripts of the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearing was more enjoyable.
2007-10-15 19:45:40
115.   Sam DC
Allright then, so what is the best Christian Slater movie?

You gonna plump for Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves?

2007-10-15 19:47:01
116.   fanerman
Nobody likes Broken Arrow?

I don't, anyway. But when I think of Christian Slater that's what I think of.

2007-10-15 19:57:35
117.   Jon Weisman
115 - Looking at IMDB, I'll vote for Tucker.
2007-10-15 20:10:33
118.   MC Safety
True Romance with Christian Slater wasnt that bad. I believe Tarantino had a hand in that somewhere iirc.
2007-10-15 20:14:27
119.   Bob Timmermann
But the only interesting character in The Contender was played by Christian Slater. But it was a stupid movie. Gary Oldman chewed some scenery.
2007-10-15 20:34:30
120.   Marty
I'll vote for Mobsters. Though it wasn't that good. But we're talking about Christian Slater here.
2007-10-15 20:44:50
121.   Andrew Shimmin
Love Stinks (Slater was only in it for a second). Ivana Milicevic, Tiffani Amber Thiessen, Tyra Banks, and Bridgette Wilson were in it for more than a second. Not a great movie, but worth watching on cable. It looks like French Stewart's still working, even though I haven't seen him in anything in a long time.
2007-10-15 20:45:29
122.   Dodgers49
Gonzo speaks

"We went away from a game plan. We had no game plan.

http://www.beloblog.com/Pe_Blogs/baseball/dodgers/

2007-10-15 20:59:00
123.   Vishal
clint hurdle pinch hits for morales in a 1-0 game in the 4th inning with 2 on and 2 out. pinch hitter bloops a double, both runners score.

i sure hope grady little is watching this game.

2007-10-15 21:01:18
124.   Bob Timmermann
122
But what great plan did Luis Gonzalez have in mind?
2007-10-15 21:11:08
125.   El Lay Dave
Get prepared to vote for the best all-time Los Angeles Dodgers, position by positions. Who are the nominees for 2B? See here: http://tinyurl.com/29du7k

In case you were wondering, Juan Samuel and Paul Popovich are not candidates.

2007-10-15 21:11:23
126.   Jon Weisman
122 - Mindboggling.

And so we get another round of people having to point out the utterly obvious: that maybe, just maybe, the losing wasn't the fault of the guys hitting .350.

It's particularly grand that he puts Martin into the "but we weren't winning games" group.

2007-10-15 21:13:57
127.   Sam DC
I've heard the votes.

I'm sticking with Pump Up The Volume. It was deep and shallow at the same time. And Samantha Mathis was Danica-hot in that movie. And it had Leonard Cohen.

But I never saw Tucker.

2007-10-15 21:15:59
128.   Jon Weisman
Honestly, I'm just so tired of it. I think I'm more dispirited by this than I was at the end of 2005. I can't believe that Luis Gonzalez can sit there, in the midst of what Colorado and Arizona are accomplishing, and continue to put forth such utter self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing crap.

Oh, and by the way - it's also the media's fault. It's not his fault that he can't keep his big fat mouth shut or that brain of his functioning.

2007-10-15 21:16:21
129.   bhsportsguy
126 I refuse to be dragged down this road again, I just hope that he is the last person that speaks about this, I really do.
2007-10-15 21:21:32
130.   El Lay Dave
122 124 The full quotes are hilarious. Those kids got a lot of hits but we weren't winning. So how does starting Gonzalez and Nomar more often help?

If you're getting plenty of hits and still losing, the problem is usually pitching. Comparing the second half to the first, the Dodgers' team ERA rose 0.83, K/BB ratio dropped from 2.51:1 to 2.04:1, HR/9 rose from 0.72 to 1.13, and WHIP rose from 1.294 to 1.424.

2007-10-15 21:22:35
131.   Sam DC
The disconnect in his comments is almost comical. OK, so they brought up those kids. And they played well. And the team still didn't win games. So ___________ ???
2007-10-15 21:27:40
132.   bhsportsguy
130 No, no, stop, don't try to figure it out.
2007-10-15 21:28:04
133.   Jon Weisman
129 - I completely agree. I think I'd rather stop following the Dodgers than live through more of this gibberish.
2007-10-15 21:36:06
134.   bhsportsguy
133 That's the thing, the way this whole thing is portrayed, with the assistance of the media and the lateness of response from the Dodgers, has just been so disquieting to us all and very disappointing. There are so many good things that can out of this season but everyone focuses on some comments made by a frustrated player at the wrong time and to the wrong people.

I want to look at next year, talk about roster moves, who is staying on the 40 man roster, what trades or free agent moves might be happen. Frankly, I have a pretty good idea of why the Dodgers are not playing right now and it has nothing to do with what has been talked about for the last month.

2007-10-15 21:46:48
135.   El Lay Dave
129 133 Agreed. It is ridiculous stuff.

134 "... with the assistance of the media and the lateness of response from the Dodgers ..." Key point. Isn't it the front office's job to state the company line, repeatedly if necessary, and keep it out front in the media? They really seem to have done a poor job of nipping this stuff in the bud.

I happened to hear Dave Stewart commenting on the Dodger clubhouse on the radio today also, at the prompting of one Jim Rome. His comments were essentially aligned with his blog entry at the time, but I was more interested in the veterans he cited as helpful and guiding forces for the Dodgers when he was a young player: Sutton, Hooton, Forster as pitchers and position players, Smith, Lopes, Cey, Monday.

2007-10-15 21:54:00
136.   El Lay Dave
123 ... and then it became a six-run inning. I hope Grady is taking note and not just watching.
2007-10-15 21:56:17
137.   bhsportsguy
136 If the Dodgers are playing in the playoffs up 3-0 and has a young pitcher who might be gassed, then maybe you do that.

If we are in the middle of the season, it would not be wise to go to your bullpen after only 4 innings.

2007-10-15 21:58:10
138.   das411
No votes for "The Undiscovered Country" as the best Christian Slater movie?

--silently goes back to Bad Altitude--

2007-10-15 22:14:45
139.   El Lay Dave
137 The point equally applies in the sixth inning when the choice is PH for your starter or try to squeeze the seventh out of him. The Colorado situation tonight is just an exaggerated example.

(On the other hand, many are quick to criticize Grady for certain overworked bullpen denizens.)

2007-10-15 22:18:45
140.   bhsportsguy
139 In the 6th, I agree with you, but it was the 4th inning in a very unique situation.
2007-10-15 22:20:09
141.   LAT
The Gonzo comments are not worth getting worked up about. First, expecting him to believe in anything other than veteran leadership is to admit that he is obsolete. A path he is clearly not prepared to begin his journey down. Second, he is a jilted lover who has cleaned out his side of the dresser. By the end of the season he believed the Dodgers broke their promise to let him play everyday and now that he is no longer a memeber of the team he can say anything he wants. Its denial. Its self-preservation. Its not worth listening to.
2007-10-15 22:22:38
142.   LAT
Chip Carey just said "duces are wild."

Hey loser that line is taken!!!

2007-10-15 22:22:48
143.   CanuckDodger
128 -- I don't ever remember you getting this angry, Jon. You usually stay pretty mellow when others, like me, are losing our tempers. I don't know what to feel right now, because everything depends on what Colletti and company do this off-season. The moves they make will tell us if they are buying into the crap Kent, Gonzo, and Lowe have been selling, or if they finally get the idea that being reluctant to trust the young players was the problem. And what do make of McCourt's statement quoted in the same blog, about rushing the kids?
2007-10-15 22:26:56
144.   El Lay Dave
143 You didn't ask me, but I am hoping that McCourt's "finishing school" comment is more about dealing with the press and other, off-field things, rather than on-field results.
2007-10-15 22:31:56
145.   natepurcell
Colletti is prepared to send them off to that little boarding school in Tampa Bay to help them finish all their schooling.
2007-10-15 22:33:35
146.   natepurcell
the posters over at minorleagueball.com voted the Dodgers as having the number 2 system behind the Drays.

I don't really believe it but I think the success of Martin/Loney/Kemp/Billz/Brox has alot to do with everyone's perception.

2007-10-15 22:37:32
147.   Exick
The plate umpire in this Rockies/D'Backs game is ridiculous.
2007-10-15 22:39:35
148.   Exick
Yay, Colorado! Division rival or not, I'm finding it impossible not to root for these guys.
2007-10-15 22:50:27
149.   Xeifrank
... and people like Scott Long (The Juice) think the Rockies/DBacks series was bad for baseball. Phooey!
vr, Xei
2007-10-15 23:02:20
150.   Dodgers49
143. because everything depends on what Colletti and company do this off-season. The moves they make will tell us if they are buying into the crap Kent, Gonzo, and Lowe have been selling

That's exactly where I am right now, also. I'm just waiting to see what Colletti does before I can determine my feelings about the team I've been following all these years. Because I think we're at the beginning of something that could be a great run. But there are so many ways he can screw this up and I'm not sure which way he is going to go. So the next three months could be tough for me to get through.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-15 23:16:58
151.   silverwidow
What if Logan White becomes the Angels GM? Nah, that can't be possible. Right? RIGHT?
2007-10-15 23:17:29
152.   dzzrtRatt
I just realized. All four NL West competitors have now been in the World Series since the Dodgers' last appearance.

McCourt, you're going into your fourth year. It's on you now. You've got twice as much money to spend at the Rockies, you're in a market xx times larger. Insist on performance. Not big names, unless those big names are producing big results.

Stop crowing about everyone being on the same page. Ned Colletti and Grady Little should be the two most uncomfortable people in town until they deliver the results the loyal fans have been waiting for for 20 years.

When Ned brings you a big name he wants to acquire, ask him this question: "Is this player you want, this marquee name, still in his prime?" If Ned dips and shuffles and starts talking about "intangibles" and "playing the right way," don't let him get away with it. "The numbers, Ned. Tell me if the numbers say this player is currently in his prime." Then if Ned starts talking about the fans falling in love with so and so in a Dodger uniform, tell him, "Ned, my PR and marketing people have the easiest job in this building. No matter what kind of crap the Dodgers ran out there the past 20 years, they filled the stadium and made money. That's why I bought the damn team, Ned, it's a cash cow. Those fans are my guests, and what they want is a championship. That's the page I'm on. Until you deliver, you're not on the same page."

2007-10-15 23:17:50
153.   dzzrtRatt
151 Right. They're promoting from within.
2007-10-15 23:27:55
154.   underdog
I was actually angrier about McCourt's comments than about Gonzo's. I mean, I agree with you guys that's a lot of crap to even go down this road again, but I sort of took Gonzo's take to be that the kids were doing well but because they weren't winning, people were looking for reasons and blame, and that it wasn't their fault. Basically it was a very half-a.. way of defending them. And there was so little in the way of veteran leadership from he or Kent, that it's kind of laughable that there's this sort of puzzlement about blame. And he kind of wants to have it both ways, blame but not blame, praise but not praise. Still, I didn't get nearly as worried about his comments - partially because he's gone-zo - than I did about McCourt's "I wish we had another year to give them..." nonsense. Huh? Another year in the minor leagues? Are you kidding? As someone said above, has he not watched the playoffs? Sheesh.

I still think the Dodgers are going to start winning more but it will be despite the idiocy displayed by "leadership" and "management" not because of it.

2007-10-15 23:30:45
155.   xaphor
Lugo has ventured into the rarefied air of "boo" territory. I'm hoping for the two-fold boon of him signing for another NL team hindering their chances and, more importantly, allowing me the opportunity to boo the moron. If Brock wishes to think up something pithy to say in place of booing, I shall consider it. :)
2007-10-15 23:57:38
156.   fanerman
I think I'm going to start a "Defenestrate Luis Gonzalez" Facebook group. Anybody care to join?
2007-10-16 00:00:57
157.   regfairfield
I'm in.
2007-10-16 06:59:40
158.   Bumsrap
Stewart: veterans he cited as helpful and guiding forces for the Dodgers when he was a young player: Sutton, Hooton, Forster as pitchers and position players, Smith, Lopes, Cey, Monday

Where is Bill Russell? He ws the one selected to follow Lasorda as manager.

2007-10-16 07:08:04
159.   Bumsrap
If I were to buy a MLB team I would probably dip into the Dodger organization when I could for players and executives so I am okay with McCourt grabbing some of his Redsox and putting into the Dodger organization. I would prefer he didn't but I understand.

But if McCourt were to have purchased the Redsox I don't think he would grab a Yankee to be his GM. He was willing to grab a Giant to be GM of the Dodgers however and is paying the devil for it.

2007-10-16 07:13:29
160.   Bumsrap
I hope the Dodgers can sign a clutch bat to hit fifth in the batting order and pound out 15+ home runs, hit .250+, and knock in 50+ runs even if he can't throw overhand all that well. Having a stud like that hitting fifth all year spells playoffs.
2007-10-16 07:27:45
161.   Daniel Zappala
I think dzzrtRatt should start a new blog: Jesus Christ Hitting Pop-ups.

(see the PE comments)

2007-10-16 07:48:00
162.   Disabled List
So I guess the Rockies won the NL pennant last night. I didn't see it happen, because I went to bed at around 12:30 am last night and the game was only in the 6th or 7th inning by then.

I can understand a division series game starting at 10 pm EDT, because in that round three games have to be squeezed into a single day. But to do this in the LCS is ridiculous. And people are actually wondering why the ratings for TBS have cratered. No other sport has playoff games that end past midnight, I can't believe MLB can't figure out a better way to do this.

2007-10-16 07:53:03
163.   Vishal
156 "defenestrate" has long been my favorite word in the english language, followed closely by "douchebag".
2007-10-16 07:53:42
164.   Vishal
163 oops, i hope that's not a rule 1. :|
2007-10-16 08:04:24
165.   old dodger fan
The NLCS has been pretty hard to watch from the East Coast. I think the network wrote off game 4 for east coast fans because of the competition from MNF, especially with NY playing Atlanta.

I watched the Indians-Red Sox last night (great game) but my daughter who is a baseball fan fell asleep in the 7th inning. She is 13 and I don't think she has seen a whole WS game yet and probably won't make it thru one this year either.

I hope this isn't a rule 8 violation but every time I see Lofton play I think, "I wonder if we would be in the NLCS if he was still with us?"

Sorry for being so negative but I grew up watching the Dodgers being a WS regular. It is tough to watch my team with so many resources fail to take advantage of them.

2007-10-16 08:18:13
166.   Bumsrap
My wish list for this winter:

Obtain Jason Bay from the Pirates.

Obtain Ian Kinsler from Texas.

Obtain Ian Stewart from Rockies

Trade Kent, Pierre, Lowe

Use Abreu, LaRoche, Kuo, Young, Ethier as needed to help make these trades.

Keep Kershaw, Elbert, Meloan, Kemp, Loney, Martin, Billingsley, Miller, Broxton.

2007-10-16 08:41:40
167.   old dodger fan
My wish list-
1. Let some guys with expiring contracts go-Gonzo, Saenz; Seanez; Hendrickson; Hernandez; Hillenbrand; Martinez.

2. Keep some guys with buyout options: Wolf; Lieberthal.

3. If Ned just has to trade someone please trade Loaiza. I don't think Pierre being traded this year is realistic.

4. Don't trade any of the young players. We have an exciting group of young guys. I want to watch them play together. You got to know when to hold 'em.

5. Sign some of the best young players to long term contracts.

2007-10-16 08:53:18
168.   regfairfield
I guess my wishlist is pretty small:

Sign a random middle reliever for no money

Sign a professional hitter for no money

I don't know, Francisco Cordero?

I'll be happy as a clam if we do absolutely nothing this off season.

I don't think I'm going to be happy as a clam.

2007-10-16 08:58:20
169.   regfairfield
Oh, and if anyone thought there'd be any good deals at all out there, consider this headline:

Pineiro agrees to two-year, $13M deal with Cards

I suspect the term "Lohse money" will be common place in a couple years.

2007-10-16 09:15:48
170.   underdog
Bums, if we're getting guys named Ian, don't forget to wish for Ian Kennedy!
2007-10-16 09:22:40
171.   Daniel Zappala
My main wish is for LaRoche to have a healthy back, get hot in spring training, and carry it over into the regular season.

My other wish is for Pierre to somehow disappear from the roster.

2007-10-16 09:33:24
172.   fanerman
My wish list is like Daniel's.

Except I want our starting 3B's first name to start with the letter "A" (I hope this wish doesn't come back to bite me) and stay healthy.

I'm content to have Pierre disappear from the line-up. He can stay on the roster if there are no takers. I'd rather pay him and not play him than pay him and play him.

2007-10-16 09:37:27
173.   underdog
"Andy" doesn't start with A? I'll take either "A" list guy vs. one starting with "N" or "M".
2007-10-16 09:38:27
174.   JMK
There's an easy fix for the Dodgers out there but it involves selling your soul. Thankfully(?), it'll never happen. The Dodgers could sign Barry Bonds to a one year $15mil deal and get rid of/bench Pierre. No long term fiscal commitments or a whole lot of risk. And your offensive lineup goes from average to good pretty quickly. In addition, you don't block any prospects. Not gonna happen, but I'm just saying...
2007-10-16 09:38:31
175.   fanerman
173 I'm generalizing Daniel Zappala's comment. i.e., I'd be okay if a guy with the name "Alex" started at 3B next season.
2007-10-16 09:39:34
176.   fanerman
174 Any OF signing would probably be the end of Ethier and not the end of Pierre.
2007-10-16 09:41:07
177.   underdog
161 Speaking of which, interesting article from last year re-pointed to today on Bronx Banter:
http://tinyurl.com/plk39

No need to debate it, don't want to start any rule 5 violations, and most of us had seen that before, but it's still kind of interesting. I wonder if I'd fit in as an agnostic Jew-ddhist.

2007-10-16 09:51:13
178.   Ken Noe
Just getting caught up. Nice to see I'm not the only Dan Evans fan on here. He deserved at least a year from McCourt. Gonzo's comments come from a guy who wants a job next year and doesn't want to be perceived as trouble. McCourt has probably had his nose glued to the ALCS and could only remember the party line from last spring. My wish list is leaving the young core intact and saying goodbye to Kent.
2007-10-16 10:03:23
179.   Gr-ool
148 It's fun seeing the normally pathetic Rockies get to the world series. This is their big chance.
2007-10-16 10:14:01
180.   Humma Kavula
Here's the thing about the "third baseman's first name starts with A" thing:

Nomar's first name is Anthony. He's Anthony Nomar Garciaparra.

2007-10-16 10:14:38
181.   fanerman
technicality shmecnicality
2007-10-16 10:27:27
182.   old dodger fan
Speaking of Dodger third basemen, Bill Mueller and Nomar are 2 of only 12 players to hit 2 grand slams in one game. Both of them did it as Red Sox.
2007-10-16 10:33:59
183.   jasonungar07
I love how it's the kids fault, but not Juan Pierre's.

There are some of your at bats Gonzo. As pathetic as Gonzo became he still had more runs created per game than Pierre...

I just hope Coletti does nothing and gets fired after 08, not does something and then gets fired.

2007-10-16 10:47:20
184.   CajunDodger
[166-168]
Here is the thing about Colletti: he always, every season, has one of those deals that comes out of the blue and makes you go, "What in God's name is this?" It is usually so bad that it takes a few days to even digest the move.

JP, Lugo, Tomko.

At some point in December, I fully expect to hear of a trade where we get someone like Ronny Belliard or Willy Taveras.

2007-10-16 10:49:05
185.   Sushirabbit
I could live with Aramis Ramirez.

I guess there's no chance of getting Orlando Hudson??

2007-10-16 10:51:32
186.   LogikReader
Ten years ago this month, the Cleveland Indians went to the World Series against the Florida Marlins.

At the time I thought it was a lot of fun, but looking back, I thought maybe it wasn't that great.

Your thoughts?

2007-10-16 10:55:07
187.   CajunDodger
185
I bet a trade of LaRoche and Brox would get him, though they are probably looking for a starter.
2007-10-16 10:59:29
188.   fanerman
184 I'd trade Pierre for Taveras.
2007-10-16 11:06:45
189.   CajunDodger
188
Seriously, what about Furcal and Broxton for Ramirez. We aren't getting ARod, so that would free up money for them to go after him and strengthen their bullpen. It would allow us to get Hu into the lineup, give us a bat, and Meloan could (hopefully) step in for Broxton. And there would be virtually no immediate payroll concerns because Ramirez only makes $3 mil more than Furcal.
2007-10-16 11:06:55
190.   old dodger fan
188 You would probably trade Pierre for a Dodger Dog (with relish).
2007-10-16 11:07:53
191.   fanerman
190 Well, yeah... I'd probably trade Pierre for just the relish.
2007-10-16 11:08:21
192.   Humma Kavula
1. Pierre isn't going to be traded. There was nothing about his season this year that was any different from any of his other seasons. If Colletti didn't like that, he wouldn't have signed the guy in the first place. Pierre will play at least 162 games for the Dodgers next year.

2. Pierre can't, and probably shouldn't be traded. Any other team will likely be scared off by his contract or offer in return a player of so little value that we'd just be trading one problem for another.

3. Even if you want to talk about things that won't happen but should, Pierre doesn't need to be traded -- he just needs to be benched. I think he'd be quite valuable to a club as a pinch-hitter/pinch-runner. Obviously, he'd be vastly overpaid for that role, but those costs are sunk.

2007-10-16 11:09:59
193.   fanerman
192 Yeah but we're just "wishing" anyway. I already said benching Pierre would be just fine in 172 .
2007-10-16 11:10:23
194.   Humma Kavula
189 I doubt that trade would do anything to satisfy the fans who think that something needs to be done about the defense. Pierre and Gonzalez was bad; Pierre and Ramirez is likely to be all-time bad.

Of course, Manny will bring his bat with him, which would more than make up for his defensive liabilities.

2007-10-16 11:12:06
195.   wireroom
hey the Rockies are pretty good and on an amazing streak, but I won't be surprised if the Red Sox or Indians expose them. The Rockies beat a mediocre Phillies team and the Rockies in turn exposed the D-backs. I will be convinced of the Rockies once there pitchers beat a good hitting team that can work a count.
2007-10-16 11:14:41
196.   fanerman
189 194 Are we talking about Manny or Aramis?
2007-10-16 11:14:52
197.   wireroom
189-I think Ramirez is past his prime and starting to become injury prone. Who needs another Strawberry in the outfield.
2007-10-16 11:15:14
198.   CajunDodger
192
I don't really think that Pierre is that bad; I just think we use him incorrectly. We simply should put Pierre in the 6-7 hole and allow Martin/Ethier to bat #2. His defense is apparently debatable depending on what metric is used.

Yeah, he's paid too much, but McCourt isn't hurting and giving 30-40 of his ABs to Martin or Ethier would probably give us an extra 3 wins or so.

Like it or not, we are stuck with this guy, so we need to embrace him...kind of like an awkward man-hug

2007-10-16 11:15:18
199.   wronghanded
195 Not to mention that this prolonged break can really only hurt them (kill their momentum).
2007-10-16 11:16:09
200.   CajunDodger
196
Sorry, I mean Aramis Ramirez.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-16 11:17:41
201.   fanerman
I don't know what to expect from the Rockies anymore because they keep defying expectations. I'm just enjoying the ride.
2007-10-16 11:23:27
202.   Humma Kavula
Sorry, I was confused.
2007-10-16 11:27:41
203.   regfairfield
188 Isn't that just exchanging one problem for another with the Cubs? They don't have anyone to play third, right? Plus, I think think they really like Theriot for some reason.
2007-10-16 11:34:50
204.   wireroom
201-I just have a tough time watching expansion teams whose fan bases only are around when the team goes on phenomenal run. I have been in Coors field to watch the Rockies play the Dodgers with a grand total of maybe 8 thousand in the stands.
2007-10-16 11:35:08
205.   MC Safety
Sorry to interrupt but are there any Phil Collins fans here? Who is the guy singing with him on Easy Lover? Is it Phil Bailey from Earth Wind and Fire ?
2007-10-16 11:35:45
206.   CajunDodger
203
I was thinking about ARod wanting to play for Pinella again and becoming the darling of Chicago a la Jordan and Ernie Banks. We could also sub LaRoche for Furcal, but we would probably have to give up a part like Delwyn Young or Elbert.
2007-10-16 11:35:53
207.   wireroom
Excuse my awful grammar today!
2007-10-16 11:37:47
208.   wireroom
I would be real disappointed if the Dodgers trade Delwyn Young. He could be like a Brad Hawpe type of hitter, who is under the radar.
2007-10-16 11:47:11
209.   CajunDodger
208
It is always hard to give up on potential, but a batting order of:

Furcal
Martin
Kemp
A. Ramirez
Kent
Loney
Ethier
Pierre

would be worth the price of Young, LaRoche, and Broxton...at least for me.

2007-10-16 11:49:46
210.   regfairfield
209 Considering how bad Aramis' defense is (unless this year wasn't just a massive fluke) I don't think it will take very long for LaRoche to become a more valuable player.
2007-10-16 11:54:42
211.   fanerman
210 What readily available metrics do you usually turn to when you look at a player's defense (and don't know much about the player)?
2007-10-16 11:56:50
212.   regfairfield
I tend to go in this order:

UZR (look on Tango Tiger's site, don't know if the full 2007 numbers are out
RZR (Hardball Times)
Zone rating (ESPN)
Rate2 (Baseball Prospectus)

If there's a lot of agreement between the first three, then I assume it's a pretty accurate measurement.

2007-10-16 12:05:38
213.   fanerman
Thanks regfairfield.
2007-10-16 12:11:50
214.   wireroom
209-yeah that doesn't look bad, but losing both Broxton and Young..
2007-10-16 12:14:25
215.   old dodger fan
209 And what do you do with Nomar?
2007-10-16 12:14:35
216.   ToyCannon
Fun Carlos Pena facts:
1. Carlos Pena's 167 OPS+ in 2007 was 25 points higher then the previous Tampa Bay OPS+ leader, Fred McGriff.
2. That 167 OPS+ is higher then any number posted by Vlady. It led all 1st baseman in 2007 by 11 points.
3. I think it was the greatest season ever for a positional NRI but I have no idea how to go about finding out.
4. In the spring of 2006 the Tigers released him, the Yankee's signed him, then released him, and then Boston signed him, and he elected FA after the season.
5. MVP? This guy thinks he at least deserves consideration http://tinyurl.com/2yw3wb
2007-10-16 12:18:54
217.   wireroom
Hey I have a question about the Dodgers international player development? I keep seeing these playoff teams pitching these fireballer starters and relievers like Jimenez and Carmona. Do the Dodgers have any guys like that who are young guys signed from Latin America? What is the status of the Dodgers International player development?
2007-10-16 12:24:52
218.   CajunDodger
215
The phrase "bucket of balls" comes to mind...
2007-10-16 12:32:25
219.   ToyCannon
217
Majors:
Hu - International
Abreu - International

Minors:
Baez - signed in March 2007, voted the top 3rd base prospect in the GCL this year

Names to watch:
Silverio, Rondon, Pedro Guerrero, Troncoso

It is bleak at the moment but hopefully the signing of Baez shows a bigger commitment then we've had in the past. The biggest signing was Joel Guzman which didn't pan out.
We don't have anyone like Jimenez or Carmona in the system but we have better domestic players so it evens out. In fact the folks at John Sickels site just voted our minor league system the 2nd best in baseball but that is because of the high impact players like Kershaw and LaRoche.

Why anyone wants to deal for Aramis when we have Andy is beyond me.

2007-10-16 12:33:54
220.   dzzrtRatt
205 Yes.

A great hit from the "nightmare" period of American pop music.

2007-10-16 12:36:27
221.   fanerman
Aramis's hitting numbers aren't as good as I originally thought. Well, I guess they're good (and consistent), but not THAT good. And he'll be 30 next season.
2007-10-16 12:42:30
222.   old dodger fan
2008

Martin C
Loney 1B
Kent 2B
LaRoche 3B
Furcal SS
Ethier LF
Pierre CF
Kemp RF

Bench:
Nomar

If that is what we send out on opening day and stick with it I'll be happy and I like our chances. I will like them better if Schmidt is healthy.

2007-10-16 12:43:19
223.   Bumsrap
P 2008 / 2009

ss Furcal / 2b Kinsler
2b Kinsler / c Martin
lf Bay / lf Bay
1b Loney / 1b Loney
c Martin / cf Kemp
3b Nomar / 3b Stewart
rf Etheir / rf Ethier
cf Kemp / ss Hu

2007-10-16 12:45:53
224.   Xeifrank
192. I disagree. If Juan Pierre could be traded for "no player" in return, to me it would be worth it. There is value in getting rid of his contract. If you could trade Pierre for nothing, and the other team picked up his entire contract, it would be like the whole thing never happened (except for last year of course). My gut feeling is that any team, offered Juan Pierre for nothing, wouldn't take the offer. The Dodgers would probably have to pay atleast 1/3 of his salary for a team to just take him off of our hands. That's how sad the signing is/was. What I agree with you is that in reality Ned won't trade Pierre because he "for some reason" sees value in him. vr, Xei
2007-10-16 12:48:10
225.   fanerman
224 Weren't the Giants about to sign him before we "won" the bid?
2007-10-16 12:51:57
226.   Xeifrank
225. Apparently. I think they based a movie off of that,... "Dumb and Dumber". Guess which one Ned played. vr, Xei
2007-10-16 12:52:25
227.   trainwreck
205
Love that song.
2007-10-16 12:54:47
228.   delias man
204 - I know what you mean. I was at the ill-fated doubleheader when this started. (Some Vacation) Total for both games looked around 35k. Then you see these wide views of a packed house, and it just does not seem fair.
2007-10-16 12:57:31
229.   LogikReader
205 , 227

That IS a great song... awesome duet.

2007-10-16 12:57:53
230.   D4P
Trivia question:

Who was the Marlins's highest paid player in 2007, and how much did s/he make?

2007-10-16 13:04:04
231.   ToyCannon
Hampton?
2007-10-16 13:04:13
232.   Bumsrap
230 - Define player
2007-10-16 13:05:07
233.   ToyCannon
I've never understood the concept that a city doesn't deserve a winner unless they were supported when they were lousy. The Rockies have been to one playoff series in their history until this year. The fans had every right to have a wait and see attitude. Up until one month ago this was a 4th place team.
2007-10-16 13:05:12
234.   Bumsrap
Ned got Pierre by agreeing to give an extra year so maybe the Giants still want him if the Dodgers were to pay for that last year.
2007-10-16 13:06:05
235.   Sam DC
Startling Captain America news. http://tinyurl.com/2xcx7s
2007-10-16 13:06:40
236.   Bumsrap
233 - If McCourt agrees with your logic he is not feeling so good right now.
2007-10-16 13:09:19
237.   fanerman
235 To be perfectly honest, I thought that article was going to be about Derek Jeter.
2007-10-16 13:09:53
238.   regfairfield
234 They already have Dave Roberts and Rajai Davis, I don't think they want Pierre anymore.
2007-10-16 13:12:33
239.   Bumsrap
238- They might not want him but it only takes one to want him as in Ned.

Maybe it will take two trades. Trade Ned first and then trade to Ned a package of Pierre, Nomar, Kent, and Loiza.

2007-10-16 13:12:45
240.   trainwreck
235
There is no point in killing super heroes, if you just keep bringing them back.
2007-10-16 13:15:04
241.   Jon Weisman
The new Basketball Prospectus has a Pac-10 preview if anyone's interested.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12

Team by team breakdowns coming over the next day or so.

2007-10-16 13:15:05
242.   ToyCannon
236
Maybe you forgot 2004 and 2006. You guys act like we haven't been to the playoffs in decades. I think most owners would take McCourts 50% playoff record.
2007-10-16 13:18:19
243.   ToyCannon
240
Marvel seems to know what they are doing. The "civil war" series mentioned in the article was one of their most successful publishing efforts ever.
2007-10-16 13:19:39
244.   D4P
241
Despite losing the Pac-10 Player of the Year, U.C.L.A. is still predicted to finish in first place.
2007-10-16 13:20:46
245.   wireroom
219-thanks for the info. I hope there is a bigger commitment towards latin american players. It seems that Latin players sign for less and if your farm system is rated in the top 2 with mostly domestic ballplayers, it could be exceptional if there was more focus on Latin ball players.
Out of those guys, are any of them power hitters in the form of a Pujols or someone like that? Abreu looks like he will have a good career, but he isn't a slugger. A concentration on some pitching from down there would be ideal.
2007-10-16 13:21:15
246.   trainwreck
244
Yeah, because we are that much better than Oregon.
2007-10-16 13:24:43
247.   Bumsrap
242 - But they did just finish in 4th place and winning one playoff game for a generation of fans diminishes getting to them in 2004 and 2006.
2007-10-16 13:27:26
248.   wireroom
233-It is matter of opinion, but for a fan base like the Dodgers or Cubs, Orioles or Indians, it just rubs me the wrong way when a club like the Marlins or Rockies can win it all and regardless of what ownership does before or after, jsut abandon their team.
Yeah maybe the Marlins had a couple of fire sales, but they also have a couple of rings.
Good for the Rockies and they are entertaining to watch, but I hope they got routed by the Indians.
2007-10-16 13:30:29
249.   Bumsrap
248 - routed by the Indians

Can we please have some political correctness observed here.

2007-10-16 13:30:29
250.   trainwreck
248
Marlins have to move. Their fan base is terrible. Yeah, so they rebuild a lot, but they still end up winning from it. They have two championships and no one ever shows up.

I do not put the Rockies on their level at all. The Marlins have to move.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-10-16 13:30:51
251.   fanerman
Clumping the Rockies with the Marlins because they're expansion teams is one thing. But where did "Rockies" and "fire sale" ever pop up?
2007-10-16 13:33:18
252.   Bumsrap
Move the Marlins to Oregon and call them the Salmons or Steelheads.
2007-10-16 13:34:22
253.   wireroom
251-that proves my point exactly. The Rockies ownership has provided them with entertaining teams from the get go. The Blake Street Bombers, a great park in a great neighborhood and they never cared until about 3 weeks ago.
249-karmic payback in some small way comparitively.
2007-10-16 13:35:25
254.   D4P
But where did "Rockies" and "fire sale" ever pop up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8BcG6SUqpU

2007-10-16 13:36:48
255.   ToyCannon
248
So teams who are stupidly run like the Dodgers, Orioles, and Cubs should win because the fans come out and support the bad decisions by manangement as opposed to fans who don't support a franchise even if it is run extremely well like the Marlins.
I love their system. Buy a pennant, sell off merchandise for younger toys, let toys percolate, win another World Series, sell off those players, get new ones, let percolate and repeat process.
2007-10-16 13:37:22
256.   Bumsrap
254 - They did try to trade Helton to Boston for Lowell. How about attempted fire sale?
2007-10-16 13:38:10
257.   ToyCannon
253
Maybe you should check out the all-time attendance records. I think you'll see the Rockies on display.
2007-10-16 13:40:03
258.   ToyCannon
They have dumped high salaried contracts(Hampton), the dead guy in St. Louis, the left handed Brave guy, but those were not really fire sales as salary dumps because the players all crapped out in altitude.
2007-10-16 13:41:13
259.   LogikReader
255

That brings up a good point. Would the Dodgers continued mediocrity persist if fans were savvy enough speak with their wallet and only come out if they saw a better commitment to winning?

For instance, if the Dodgers had a season like this one and next season the fan attendance is down 50% to start, wouldn't that open some eyes over in the front office?

2007-10-16 13:43:11
260.   trainwreck
259
Probably.

We really need to do that with the Lakers. Like really badly. Like so bad, the Buss family has to sell the team.

2007-10-16 13:43:25
261.   Bumsrap
259 - Yes but the problem has not been lack of effort as measured by payroll, it seems to be more a lack of front office ability.
2007-10-16 13:43:25
262.   Daniel Zappala
252 And now, based on the title of this thread, we have come full circle.
2007-10-16 13:44:59
263.   Bumsrap
262 - So, do you think Pierre would be a good fly fisherman?
2007-10-16 13:45:14
264.   CajunDodger
245
I know that our Latin scouting has some work to do, but this is also offset by successes like Saito, Nomo, Kuo, and Hu (though I am not sure if Hu was drafted here or signed as a FA from Asia) and the overall success we have had in Asia.
2007-10-16 13:46:31
265.   LogikReader
261

Duly noted. I don't qualify simply spending a lot of money as "commitment to winning." That's the basic problem. Most casual fans don't know the difference.

2007-10-16 13:49:03
266.   ToyCannon
Or parents.
2007-10-16 13:50:17
267.   fanerman
Year Rockies Wins Rockies Attendance League Average
1993 67 4,483,350 2,637,470
1994 53 3,281,511 1,843,416
1995 77 3,390,037 1,793,589
1996 83 3,891,014 2,169,949
1997 83 3,888,453 2,277,526
1998 77 3,792,683 2,401,674
1999 72 3,235,833 2,380,436
2000 82 3,149,117 2,480,194
2001 73 3,168,579 2,481,346
2002 73 2,737,918 2,309,294
2003 74 2,334,085 2,273,813
2004 68 2,338,069 2,512,690
2005 67 1,915,586 2,583,685
2006 86 2,105,995 2,598,741

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/rockattn.shtml

So, the attendance didn't dip until the early 2000's when the team was stuck in mediocrity. So, can we blame fans for not showing up to games when the team is playing poorly? What is your problem with the Rockies?

2007-10-16 13:51:23
268.   fanerman
267 Those columns go:
Year
Rockies Wins
Rockies Attendance
N.L. Average Attendance
2007-10-16 13:52:51
269.   ToyCannon
Exactly - they hit the coveted 4 million. Only someone completely unfamiliar with the Rockie franchise would say the fans have not supported the team.
2007-10-16 13:54:25
270.   wireroom
255-no, what i am saying is that teams that have bad fan bases and bad ownership, one way or the other, I dont' really care about. I will respect the Rockies and their fan base if they sustain this boom for themselves for a long time, godo and bad times. In the 30-40 Rockies games I have been to in Denver, I have never seen a crowd larger than about 20 thousand.
It is an ethical issue with me. besides the Dodgers have had a lot of winning seasons in the last 20 years, so i wouldn't say the Dodgers are a badly run organization overall. Maybe some mistakes, but I will take that and their payroll commitment over the Rockies or D-Backs any day of the week.
2007-10-16 14:00:30
271.   Xeifrank
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Rockies selling out Coors Field like crazy for about the first seven years they existed?
I can sense some sour grapes about the Rockies success this past month.
vr, Xei
2007-10-16 14:01:06
272.   Xeifrank
271. Or Mile High stadium, or whatever it was called. vr, Xei
2007-10-16 14:03:23
273.   ToyCannon
Yes
2007-10-16 14:04:26
274.   ToyCannon
But only 20,000 were going to the games when they were in 4th place so they should just leave their gloves on the field and go home.
2007-10-16 14:04:29
275.   Xeifrank
273. I just don't see where wiretap is coming from. vr, Xei
2007-10-16 14:06:29
276.   wireroom
I will concede to you that Rockies have had some nice attendance figures for some years, but they still don't jump out at me as a great fan base.
2007-10-16 14:08:34
277.   LogikReader
I agree. The Rockies aren't to be lumped in there with the Marlins and Diamondbacks. I think the Rockies have a very good fanbase which, as you can see in the chart have, by and large, supported their team.

Even the Dodgers will have 20,000 fans at games during part of the year.

2007-10-16 14:11:30
278.   delias man
I agree with wireroom on this one, but I hope they stay away. I like going to an empty stadium for a series and pay the scalper $30 to sit on the first 5 rows around the vistor's on deck circle. I will never get to sit in those seats at DS. It is a great stadium, reasonable priced good food, and $5 parking 4 blocks from the stadium. Beautiful city, too.
2007-10-16 14:11:41
279.   bhsportsguy
ToyCannon: But as far as mid to high ceiling pitchers, the Dodgers do stack up well with Kershaw, McDonald, Elbert and Morris, assuming the latter two can rebound from surgery. Position player wise, thin after LaRoche, Hu, and Abreu. Young should be in the mix for a bench spot next year. Bell, DeJesus, Lambo, Baez and Gallagher are years away right now.
2007-10-16 14:12:56
280.   Dodgers49
159. But if McCourt were to have purchased the Redsox I don't think he would grab a Yankee to be his GM. He was willing to grab a Giant to be GM of the Dodgers however and is paying the devil for it.

Agreed. To me that showed he had no understanding of the long history between the Dodgers and Giants. Had I purchased the Dodgers I would never have even bothered to interview a member of the Giants to run this team. Maybe that would have been my loss. But I would have been more than willing to risk it.

2007-10-16 14:13:59
281.   Hallux Valgus
276 Denver is a sports town, not a baseball town. Denver's "not great fan base" has buit stadiums for 4 professional teams (Coors field is the OLDEST building in town, having opened in 1995), seen a soccer specific stadium built, and seen expansions of both major state universities' athletic facilities. Not to mention new minor league facilities in Broomfield and Loveland which house basketball hockey, and indoor football. Denver has also added professional indoor and outdoor lacrosse teams and a consistently sold out AFL franchise.

Denver supports athletics, and always has (often to the detriment of more pressing needs like education), it's just that denver is something like the 17th largest market in the country and there's lots of other options.

2007-10-16 14:23:38
282.   ToyCannon
280
Can't argue with that. It may be cutting off your nose to spite your face but nobody in the Giant front office would have seen the insides of Chavez Ravine.

Of course that makes me a hypocrite because I'd like to see Bonds in LF in 2008.

2007-10-16 14:28:08
283.   trainwreck
Anyone else think Bonds was one of the people that Dusty was referring to when he said he got calls from people who wanted to play for the Reds?
2007-10-16 14:31:25
284.   LogikReader
Hoo boy, Bonds and Griffey in the Clubhouse? Talk about the "Grumpiest Place on Earth".
2007-10-16 14:35:28
285.   ToyCannon
That would be the Dodger clubhouse.
2007-10-16 14:55:59
286.   LogikReader
not anymore; Gonzo is gonzo
2007-10-16 14:57:21
287.   D4P
Gonzo is gonzo

But Kent hasn't went

2007-10-16 14:58:18
288.   fanerman
Gonzo should join Griffey and Bonds in Cincy.
2007-10-16 15:05:17
289.   wireroom
and nomar can't hit a homer.
2007-10-16 15:10:40
290.   underdog
Gonzo and Bonds and Griffey, oh my! That would make me laugh. And take bets on the first blow-up or meltdown.

Huh, speaking of fire sales, the Dolphins just traded Chris Chambers to the Chargers for a 2nd round pick. Good trade for both teams, I guess.

2007-10-16 15:13:06
291.   D4P
Dolphins just traded Chris Chambers

You mean "Eyeball" Chambers's little brother...?

2007-10-16 15:13:38
292.   wireroom
Gonzo, Griffey and Bonds in the same outfield? That sounds like a recipe for a lot of inside the park homeruns.
2007-10-16 15:16:24
293.   underdog
291 What'd you, watch "Stand By Me" recently?
2007-10-16 15:24:07
294.   D4P
293
My best friend in middle school owned two movies: Top Gun and SBM. We watched them nearly a million times each.
2007-10-16 15:29:11
295.   Dodgers49
282. Of course that makes me a hypocrite because I'd like to see Bonds in LF in 2008.

I don't necessarily have a problem with ex-Giant players (Heck, I even accepted Juan Marichal in 1975). One Giant once in a while wouldn't bother me. I just would never have considered a long-time member of the Giants front office as a candidate to run the Dodgers. He can run any other team. Just keep him away from my Dodgers. :-)

2007-10-16 15:32:48
296.   trainwreck
294
Did you pretend to be Ice or Maverick?
2007-10-16 15:34:09
297.   fanerman
I have never seen Top Gun before. My roommate insists I watch it. I'll watch it, I just haven't had a chance to yet.
2007-10-16 15:36:10
298.   underdog
297 I could think of a million things that would make better use of your time. Actually, I could think of a million movies that would be better use of your time, even.
2007-10-16 15:37:23
299.   D4P
296
I always liked Slider. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
2007-10-16 15:39:21
300.   silverwidow
I don't think A-Rod will sign with a team that doesn't guarantee him SS.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-10-16 15:40:07
301.   LogikReader
A friend of mine referred to Top Gun as a "soap opera with airplanes." I thought it was ok, but perhaps dated now.
2007-10-16 15:40:24
302.   fanerman
298 Haha you're probably right. It's mainly 1 or 2 scenes (which my roommate often quotes) that he tells me to watch. Something about Val Kilmer and ice.
2007-10-16 15:40:44
303.   LogikReader
NedCo's ego is writing checks his body can't cash!
2007-10-16 15:43:18
304.   D4P
Ned should be flying cargo planes full of rubber dog (excrement) out of Hong Kong!
2007-10-16 15:45:30
305.   wireroom
297-Top Gun, that's a classic man. Those classic 80s action movies did special effects in a way that just can't be duplicated. Watching F-14 Tomcats fly around doing impossible maneuvers, with Kelly Mcgillis and Meg Ryan as your navy girls in tow.....
2007-10-16 15:49:58
306.   D4P
With the primary exceptions of the soundtrack and Kelly McGillis, Top Gun generally stands the test of time. It's not nearly as 1986ish as most movies made in 1986.

It helps that most of the fashion involved quasi-timeless military garb.

2007-10-16 15:53:06
307.   wireroom
A little "highway to the danger zone" still gets me fired up to cut the grass on the weekend or ride my bike to the liqour store with the sun setting
2007-10-16 15:54:56
308.   Bluebleeder87
I'm guilty of liking the movie "Cocktail" to this day (I'm kind of getting over it) but back then I thought the movie rocked. "Top Gun" is just as cheesy as Cocktail I guess.
2007-10-16 15:56:45
309.   wireroom
Yeah Top Gun and Days of Thunder were basically the same movie, just switch jets for race cars.
2007-10-16 15:56:53
310.   Sam DC
If you get over liking Cocktail, you've lost something forever.
2007-10-16 15:57:18
311.   Bluebleeder87
307

Don't forget "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" that was classic wasn't it.

2007-10-16 16:01:20
312.   Bluebleeder87
310

I can still picture my self (mullet included) walking into the theater not knowing I was gonna watch greatness.

2007-10-16 16:03:51
313.   Bluebleeder87
309

I've heard Tom Cruise is (or was) a pretty good race car driver.

2007-10-16 16:03:54
314.   fanerman
Taglines for "Cocktail", according to Wikipedia:

* When he pours, he reigns.
* They thought he was good, they were wrong... he was the best.
* Need a hot bartender, make mine a double!

2007-10-16 16:05:05
315.   Daniel Zappala
263 Just got back. That was a whopper!
2007-10-16 16:07:41
316.   wireroom
313-I think Paul Newman got him into racing cars when they filmed color of money
2007-10-16 16:11:00
317.   Xeifrank
movie chat. I guess we were due for it.
vr, Xei
2007-10-16 16:12:22
318.   wireroom
walking out of that theater with our bowlcuts my friend and I knew we had watched greatness.
2007-10-16 16:13:11
319.   D4P
317
You started it 226
2007-10-16 16:18:55
320.   underdog
We could torture you with TV chat instead! Be grateful...

Nothing more exciting than watching someone else mix drinks for two hours and someone else drink them - and call it a movie!

Back to the Dodgers... From D Leung:
"The Dodgers have granted permission to infielder Chin-lung Hu and pitcher Chin-hui Tsao to play for Taiwan in the Asian Baseball Championships in November. Pitcher Hong-Chih Kuo remains sidelined due to shoulder surgery."

2007-10-16 16:38:33
321.   Xeifrank
319. haha. :)
vr, Xei
2007-10-16 16:42:55
322.   Dodgers49
Mailbag: Dodgers pursuing A-Rod?

1). Is there any chance the Dodgers will try to sign A-Rod if he opts out of his Yankees contract?
2). How have the Dodgers done when they sign free agents to long-term contracts?
3). How can Olmedo Saenz, Roberto Hernandez and Shea Hillenbrand become free agents already when the filing date is after the World Series?
4). What is the progress on the Spring Training facility in Arizona?
5). Will the Dodgers' coaching staff return in 2008?

http://tinyurl.com/246x9s

2007-10-16 16:49:01
323.   trainwreck
So who do we waste our money on if we are not going to get A-Rod?

I could possibly see Hunter.

2007-10-16 16:52:48
324.   Daniel Zappala
Leo Mazzone to the Dodgers? Hmm.
2007-10-16 16:53:49
325.   goofus
The mind wanders when there's no baseball... My nephew is going to Texas for a few days so I have to stay around to keep an eye on his kids...Which brought to mind that Walter O'Malley would never let his wife Kay fly on the same plane with him, in case it should crash...Which brought to mind Baseball had a plan to re-staff a club with a draft from other teams... I imagine that died with Free Agency... I wish I could post a picture on the Red Sox Blog, it would be a picture of Tulowitski with the caption," Julio Lugo, my a--"
2007-10-16 16:58:58
326.   fanerman
Out of Hunter, Jones, and Rowand? Who would you want the most? If you had to choose between the three.

Hunter is consistently decent/mediocre. Jones is inconsistent and coming off a horrible year, but has the biggest upside. Rowand is inconsistent and coming off a good year.

I'd rather have Andruw.

2007-10-16 16:59:25
327.   Bluebleeder87
324

I wouldn't mind, if anything at least he's more respected then Honeycutt, I wouldn't mind at all.

2007-10-16 17:03:52
328.   regfairfield
326 Jones is the only one of those guys that won't be laughably overpaid (just normally overpaid).

Just remember, 2/13 for Piniero.

2007-10-16 17:06:13
329.   Jim Hitchcock
325 How 'bout Tony Gwynn for manager?
2007-10-16 17:10:20
330.   fanerman
328 How much do you think the 3 CF's would end up making?

I sort of pictured $15-20 million per all along.

2007-10-16 17:13:43
331.   regfairfield
330 That's what I think, it's just that Hunter and Rowand or worth nowhere near that. Jones might at least be in the neighborhood.
2007-10-16 17:16:07
332.   silverwidow
Rowand: $13 mil
Hunter: $18-20 mil
Andruw: $20 mil
2007-10-16 17:34:45
333.   bigcpa
332 If Jones hit 50 HR last year maybe. But you also have several big market teams out of the bidding. I think 6 yrs/ $100M like the Carlos Lee deal.
2007-10-16 17:45:25
334.   Dodgers49
329. 325 How 'bout Tony Gwynn for manager?

Ironically, I just read an interview of Tony Gwynn today in Sports Illustrated (October 15, 2007) in which he says he has no interest in managing in the Major Leagues. He says he prefers teaching and that college baseball suits him better.

2007-10-16 17:55:08
335.   Bob Timmermann
San Diego State hasn't improved much with Gwynn as coach has it?

It's one of the few baseball programs in Southern California that doesn't make much of an impact. It's not even as good as USD.

2007-10-16 19:12:44
336.   Gen3Blue
Imagine! If we had given Lofton one more year. Who knew?
2007-10-16 19:27:03
337.   fanerman
336 We might still be playing? That, or we'd at least not be resigned to our current CF, and I wouldn't have a problem overpaying Andruw Jones. Though we'd have more money free for someone more expensive, too.
2007-10-16 19:30:56
338.   El Lay Dave
Russell Martin is the only Dodger named to The Sporting News National League All-Star Team.

http://tinyurl.com/2tutov

2007-10-16 19:38:15
339.   El Lay Dave
329 Can you manage from the RF all-you-can-eat pavilion?
2007-10-16 19:43:32
340.   Sam DC
Is 2/$13M for Pineiro really so crazy?
2007-10-16 19:51:51
341.   El Lay Dave
340 And if not, does Mark Hendrickson at around $3 million (guessing at arbitration) seem somewhat less ridiculous than it did before?
2007-10-16 19:53:35
342.   El Lay Dave
320 Good news on Tsao. If he's available to pitch in November, doesn't that mean the Dodgers can watch him in live action and get a little more feel on his health before having to make their 40-man roster decisions?
2007-10-16 20:10:43
343.   Bluebleeder87
Kenny Lofton hasn't aged one bit: [ http://tinyurl.com/26wlxk ] - [ http://tinyurl.com/2zrqkk ] him & ToyCannon have apparently found the fountain of youth.
2007-10-16 20:19:31
344.   Bluebleeder87
342

I'd dump the guy or TRY & get something of value for him, I mean seriously, the guy is damaged goods, He'll pitch for 2 weeks & then be out for a month. I'm sorry but I just don't think the guy will stay healthy for an entire year I'm convinced of that.

2007-10-16 20:26:37
345.   Gen3Blue
Funny, he bats like a rookie! A matter of perspective--I remember how Kenny Lofton was assailed as a centerfielder at this site last year.
2007-10-16 20:35:18
346.   El Lay Dave
345 I'd bet that Juan Pierre was not suggested as the solution, however.
2007-10-16 20:40:01
347.   regfairfield
344 I don't see the problem with that when he has stuff and costs nothing. The only thing he takes up is a spot on the 40 man, and unless Ned goes on an ill advised shopping spree, he'd only be taking the spot that would go to someone like Mike Megrew or Russell Mitchell.
2007-10-16 20:40:03
348.   El Lay Dave
344 I don't think anyone will give the Dodgers anything. He's arbitration eligible, so all teams will wait until they either offer him or waive him. Ultimately, I think it boils down to if there is a 40-man spot available to take a chance on Tsao or not.

He and Roberto Hernandez pitched about the same amount. Apparently you can't have too many random relievers around your roster.

2007-10-16 20:41:43
349.   El Lay Dave
347 348 And apparently that spot is likely to exist!
2007-10-16 22:11:54
350.   das411
Not exactly rule-1-friendly, but you fine folks could certainly have a whole lot of fun applying these new metrics to the Dodgers:

http://thegoodphight.com/story/2007/10/15/13118/121

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-10-16 22:15:54
351.   LAT
Thank goodness I missed Tom Cruise thoughts. It would be more than I can bear. He holds spots 1-10 on my list.
Hitler, Bin Laden and Ivan the Terrible hold spots 11, 12 and 13 respectivly. Tony Larussa is 14. Then Cruise has sopts 15-25 just for good measure.
2007-10-16 22:28:42
352.   Dodgers49
Sometimes you get to watch Kirk Gibson. Unfortunately, there are times when you're on the other side:

Facts of Rockies' run read like fiction

>> If there was one key moment in the streak, Holliday said it came three games in, when the Rockies' focus was simply on getting out of fourth place in the division. Trailing by a run and down to their last strike against the Dodgers and All-Star closer Takashi Saito on Sept. 18, the Rockies got a two-run, walk-off homer from Todd Helton.

"If you want to say there was a signature moment, that might be it," Holliday said. "Obviously there had to be a lot of great moments and a lot of big contributions. There has to be countless number of big situations and big plays.

"But that really stands out to me. That was a huge win for us." <<

http://tinyurl.com/365su9

2007-10-17 01:38:40
353.   Louis in SF
352

At 1:30am PDT, I don't think there is much of an audience for my comments. While Holiday's comments are understandable, it was clear at least to me that 89 or 90 games was going to be necessary to get into the playoffs.

While the Dodgers had a a number of close losses to the Rockies down the stretch, the inability of the Dodgers to be more pro-active early on with the starting pitching was the ultimate downfall...Both veterans and youngsters participated in the hitting slump in August when the Dodgers couldn't drive in a run with men on base-I believe they were like 5 for 85. Had they pulled Tomko much earlier and allowed Bills to start and brought up a minor leaguer sooner, they might have had a chance...By time they hit the Rox it was too late-the old adage that the games lost in April and May &August count has much has the ones in September.

2007-10-17 02:27:00
354.   regfairfield
353 I think the Dodgers finished far enough out that you can't simply point the blame at anyone thing. In fact, I don't know if there's anything the Dodgers could have done to improve their record by eight games.
2007-10-17 02:27:53
355.   regfairfield
Other than completely restructure the team in the offseason. I don't know if the team could have made up the ground, even with Kemp and Billingsley starting from day one.
2007-10-17 07:04:04
356.   Andrew Shimmin
If you get to straight line project Loney's and Kemp's performances (in place of Nomar and Pierres) over a full season, based on what they did with what they had, what's that, five wins? It's big, anyway. If you have to admit that Kemp might not have been quite so super-fantastic over a larger sample, maybe it's only three. Houlton and Stults in place of Tomko and Hendrickson is probably close to a push; better for the soul, but not necessarily better in the standings. Roberto Hernandez ended up with (for his stay in L.A.) a WXRL of -0.793, so it's not crazy to think that calling up Meloan, instead, could have been one win.

Maybe you're right. It could have been closer, though. It should have been.

2007-10-17 07:15:36
357.   ToyCannon
I just don't think it works that way. At the end of year we might have been 8 games out but that loss was a backbreaker and put us in a tailspin. If we win, who knows what the future would have held for us.
For them it was the difference between a playoff with the Padres and sitting home.
2007-10-17 08:14:22
358.   Bumsrap
A big part of me being entertained by the Dodgers is not whether they win or lose but how they play the game.

But everybody seems to have a difference of opinion about how best to play the game. For me it includes watching players that are either in their primes or are moving toward their primes. I really don't like watching another teams heros late in their career have brief stops with the Dodgers.

I enjoy speed and great defense. I never enjoy watching someone that seems to strike out many more times than they walk. A great arm displayed is a thrill and a weak arm displayed is painful.

So, for me it isn't a question that the Dodgers might have one a few more games or maybe lost a few more games based on the mix op players getting the most playing time. It is about watching the players I want to see play and learning if they will evolve or fade.

2007-10-17 09:24:39
359.   Frip
307 wireroom

"A little "highway to the danger zone" still gets me fired up to cut the grass on the weekend or ride my bike to the liqour store with the sun setting."

hehehehehehh

And for the person who said they like Coctail, I don't care how many times you throw the word cheesy around in a good way, or how highly cultivated your sense of irony is, there is simply NO excuse to like this movie in any sense whatsoever. The movie is evil bad in every possible way. You're so jaded you've lost yourself. Come home.

2007-10-17 09:28:30
360.   Frip
Wait, I thought 307 was funny cuz I figured he meant riding his little ghetto bicycle to the liquor store with the sun setting. But I suppose he means motorcycle. Not as funny.
2007-10-17 09:31:17
361.   JoeyP
If we win, who knows what the future would have held for us.

I dont think there is "momentum" in baseball, as "momentum" is about as good as the next day's starter.

The Dodgers had that dramatic win in Chicago, but it didnt really propel them to anything.

The Rockies streak is unreal, and they could be the favorites next year if they get full years out of Jiminez/Morales. I'm glad they won because they appear to be the best team in the NL---largest run differential over the entire year.

2007-10-17 10:05:35
362.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.

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