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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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Alex Rodriguez and the Ultimate Choice
2007-10-29 10:00
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

This morning, in my car cassette deck (thanks to a tape sent to me from Dodger Thoughts reader Stan from Tacoma), the Dodgers finished off their June 11, 1971, 12-1 pasting of the Montreal Expos at Jarry Park.

The Dodgers scored a season-high eight runs in the second inning, while Al Downing took a two-hit shutout into the ninth inning before settling for the complete-game victory. With the game hardly in doubt, the Dodgers emptied their bench and featured the following defensive alignment in the ninth:

Bill Buckner, 1B
Jim Lefebvre, 2B
Bobby Valentine, SS
Steve Garvey, 3B
Von Joshua, LF
Bill Russell, CF
Willie Crawford, RF
Duke Sims, C

The Dodgers had 16 hits in the game, but the 22 1/2-year-old Garvey, batting eighth, it should be noted, went a meek 0 for 5. He wasn't robbed of any hits – it was just a bad day (though Vin Scully, who broadcast all nine innings on the radio that day, noted that Garvey didn't let his poor offensive showing bother him on defense).

The performance lowered Garvey's season batting average to .231 and OPS to .700. He had had 146 plate appearances to that point and mustered 18 singles, seven doubles, one triple, four home runs and 15 walks. He went 1 for 4 the next game, then did not play again for the Dodgers until July 29. Garvey's career numbers through June 11, 1971: .309 on-base percentage, .376 slugging percentage, five home runs in 226 at-bats.

In this day and age, Garvey would be what is known as "a hole in the lineup." He was, if I may be allowed to oversimplify, Andy LaRoche, 36 years earlier.

The point of all this is not to suggest that LaRoche will be the next Garvey. The point is that if you have reason to believe a player will be good – such as an impressive minor league track record and flashes of talent at a young age — a slow start or even slow half-season isn't a reason to give up on a player.

Interestingly, the 1971 National League Most Valuable Player was a third baseman, and a name that has come up in Dodger conversation in recent days. Joe Torre hit .363 for St. Louis that season, with a .421 on-base percentage and .555 slugging percentage. His adjusted OPS of 171 almost matches the most recent adjusted season OPS (177) of a present-day third baseman, Alex Rodriguez.

Torre, who was 31 when the 1971 season ended, never had a season like that again, though he was productive for four of the next five seasons.

The point of all that is not to suggest that Rodriguez will be the next Torre, but just a caution that declines happen.

Now, if you think I'm forming an argument against the Dodgers pursuing Alex Rodriguez, you'd be wrong. Rodriguez is too great a talent not to consider adding to the team. I just don't want you to think I have blinders on about what can happen to great prospects or great veterans.

With that out of the way, I do want to address three of the chief arguments against signing Rodriguez. These are: 1) adding Rodriguez's salary would put too many eggs in one basket by leaving the Dodgers vulnerable if he were injured, 2) adding Rodriguez's salary to the team would prevent the Dodgers from making other necessary improvements to the squad and 3) adding Rodriguez would encourage a win-now philosophy that would renew the Dodgers' hopeless cycle of exchanging young talent for over-the-hill talent.

Note that all these arguments are fear-based. Fear that Rodriguez will get hurt. Fear that the Dodgers will be stupid. Having been an adult since before 1988, I understand those fears all too well.

As for Rodriguez getting hurt: Yes, it could happen. But he has a healthy track record – he's one of the better bets in the game as far as being in the lineup.

As for the Dodgers being stupid: If the Dodgers are going to be stupid, Rodriguez's presence or absence isn't going to change that. If the Dodgers don't sign Rodriguez (which of course remains the vast likelihood), that won't make them any less desperate to improve the team or any more insightful in their approach.

We live in two different worlds with the Dodgers. For example: There's the reality in which we know that Juan Pierre should not start, and the reality in which we know that he will start. None of us can do much to change either universe. But I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Dodgers shouldn't pursue the best player in the game because it will screw up the franchise. Rodriguez is a solution, not a problem.

I'm perfectly willing to enter the season with LaRoche as the team's starting third baseman, but reality tells us that even if Rodriguez isn't signed, LaRoche won't have that status. He'll have to wait for someone to get hurt or earn it in that tedious way we've grown accustomed to.

Meanwhile, the Dodgers won't have this lineup next season, but they could:

Rafael Furcal, SS
Russell Martin, C
Alex Rodriguez, 3B
James Loney, 1B
Matt Kemp, CF
Andre Ethier, RF
Jeff Kent, 2B
Delwyn Young, LF
Chad Billingsley/Brad Penny/Derek Lowe/Jason Schmidt/Clayton Kershaw/James McDonald/Esteban Loaiza, P

You'd then have Juan Pierre, Tony Abreu, Mark Sweeney, Mike Lieberthal, Jason Repko and LaRoche coming off the bench or being traded for pitching help. Or, for example, you trade Kent to the American League and open up a spot for Abreu to shore up the infield defense.

For those who can't shake the real reality, put Pierre in Young's slot, and recognize that the defense has some soft spots no matter what the Dodgers do. Either way, you'd have an organization that can win now and for years to come. That's about as bulletproof as you can get if you're not stupid.

So the debate isn't about pursuing Rodriguez or not. The debate isn't about whether LaRoche is a legitimate third-base prospect. The debate is about being stupid or not.

I choose not being stupid. It's really not that hard.

Comments (636)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-29 10:22:13
1.   D4P
Regarding LaRoche: if he's still on the team come spring training, I'd guess his future with the franchise will depend heavily upon his spring performance.

1. If he performs well, he'll get to go to Las Vegas and look forward to being called up to platoon with Nomar once Management finally figures out that Nomar isn't very good anymore.

2. If he performs poorly, he's gone.

2007-10-29 10:23:21
2.   CajunDodger
Good post. Now, lets get in our time machine and fast forward through the ARod/Torre/Kent Retirement/LaRoche/Kemp rumors craziness and enjoy our last season at Vero.
2007-10-29 10:23:57
3.   bhsportsguy
That about sums it up. I'm tired, wake me in a little over 2 weeks.
2007-10-29 10:26:13
4.   CajunDodger
1
Dang it! I'm never first.

Anyway, I hope that if Colletti has any visions of trading LaRoche, he does it before they turn him into Lastings Milledge. A prospect who is outstanding but because of organizational badmouthing, his trade value is reduced.

I think that if Colletti listens to White, LaRoche will be allowed to earn a spot in March. Otherwise I expect Ned to trade him this offseason for someone like Joe Crede.

2007-10-29 10:27:16
5.   Humma Kavula
Jon, you've put your finger right on the button with this. To what extent will Ned let fear guide his decisions?

I'm starting to feel bad for Colletti, because choosing not to be stupid is also the risky option -- not for the team, but for him. If he signs A-Rod and the Dodgers fail to make the postseason -- which could happen -- the headline is, "Where did that $300 million get you?" and there's a possibility that Ned gets fired.

Doing nothing and putting the team in the hands of the kids -- the other right move -- is also risky. If the Dodgers fail to make the postseason, that headline is "Ned stands pat on fourth-place team," and he may get fired for that, too.

If he doesn't sign A-Rod, but instead (say) Mike Lowell, who goes back to being Mike Lowell next year, he can say, "Hey, I got the World Series MVP and a guy who hit like bonkers last year. Who knew? At least he didn't cost as much as A-Rod," and Colletti can keep his job.

Basing decisions on fear -- the worst-case scenario -- might not be the best for the team, but does Ned have a family to support and put kids through college? Will he put his job on the line to make the right decision for the club, knowing that he might be on a short leash if he does?

What's the line in "Jerry Maguire?" That's how you get great...

2007-10-29 10:27:32
6.   LogikReader
I think by now I'm more or less apathetic to what happens. If one of the stupid things happens, such as signing Mike Lowell, it'll be a good laugh. Otherwise, I'm resigned to watching and waiting.
2007-10-29 10:29:38
7.   Jon Weisman
By the way, I was glad to read the previous thread's comments and learn I'm not alone in hating this time of the season.
2007-10-29 10:30:38
8.   dzzrtRatt
"I choose not being stupid. It's really not that hard."

Easy for a smart person to say!

If Ned Colletti could choose not to be stupid, a certain tiny-headed slap hitter with rabbit-like tendencies would not be installed in CF for the next four years.

The argument for getting A-Rod on the Dodgers comes down to this: For all that money you're getting a great player, and if we spend all that money on him, there will be little appetite to spend a lot of money on future Juan Pierres.

The argument for signing Torre, which I'm not as viscerally opposed to as some, is that he will be completely unafraid to go to Colletti and say, "Juan Pierre is killing us out there. I'm sitting him." Grady is a nice guy, he knew Ned liked Juan, and didn't want to cause a rumpus, even if he recognized that Pierre was a rally killer. As I've said many times, Grady's lineups were about clubhouse politics not winning games. That's really unacceptable. I don't know what else I want a manager to be, but he's got to be the boss. He's got to be willing to be the lightning rod for disappointed players and be willing to say to their face, "You're not playing because that's better for the team. Now be quiet."

2007-10-29 10:30:43
9.   wireroom
I am fine with Laroche getting a legit shot, the Dodgers being smart and not stupid and them finding some pitching. I think the biggest problem last year was the Dodgers didn't have one decent starter the last month of the year except Billingsley. Figure out the pitching problem. I like that lineup and love seeing Delwyn Young in it. But I am not convinced that it needs Alex Rodriguez.
2007-10-29 10:32:18
10.   Xeifrank
Distinguished talk show host and top notch baseball analyst Colin Cowheard had the following beauty on his talk show this morning. "It's obvious from watching the Rockies and Red Sox play in the World Series, that it's pitching and chemistry that win championships." - CC

Personally, I thought it was obvious that having your team name start with the letter "R" was what won championships.

vr, Xei

2007-10-29 10:32:23
11.   thinkblue0
I'm perfectly willing to enter the season with LaRoche as the team's starting third baseman, but reality tells us that even if Rodriguez isn't signed, LaRoche won't have that status. He'll have to wait for someone to get hurt or earn it in that tedious way we've grown accustomed to.

And this is why our management is completely and absolutely baffling. When really coming to terms with how they operate, it's just astounding.

let's just hope Nomar can hit above .230....

2007-10-29 10:33:53
12.   CajunDodger
7
I used to like it before I came to LA and became a Dodger fan about 6 years ago. It was so much easier to laugh off the lunatics who gave out crazy money to players when I wasn't emotionally attached.

Now that I care, I despise November-February.

Kevin Malone was just too easy to make fun of. Now I put my winter mood in the hands of Colletti...now I'm the sucker.

2007-10-29 10:39:18
13.   CajunDodger
9
I was talking about this with my brother (Cubs fan) and we determined that the Dodgers have no #1 starter, but we do have 3 #2s. Penny, as much as I like him, does not take over games more than 3-4 times per year. The other times, he simply goes out, does his job well, and wins his games. He strikes fear in the heart of no one.

Bills is a good, cheap, #2 and I am ecstatic with that. Lowe, also a 2-3 guy. How about a bona fide ace (Kershaw, Elbert, SANTANA).

Fix the staff, Ned.

2007-10-29 10:39:20
14.   JL25and3
0 1) adding Rodriguez's salary would put too many eggs in one basket by leaving the Dodgers vulnerable if he were injured

Hmm. The corollary to that would be that teams should sign less-talented players because they're easier to replace in case of injury.

2007-10-29 10:39:24
15.   fanerman
If NedCo doesn't have the guts to do what he thinks is right without worry for what the media thinks, he shouldn't have taken the job.
2007-10-29 10:39:35
16.   still bevens
11 Nomar is perfectly capable of hitting .280-.290.

The problem is him slugging the exact same numbers.

2007-10-29 10:40:38
17.   fanerman
14 You mean, another set of LuGo, Pierre, and Nomar? I'd rather just have A-Rod.
2007-10-29 10:41:00
18.   Benaiah
I think that whatever teams signs A-Rod is going to have to have a PLAN, on a powerpoint or a big glossy folder, to convince him that they are going to win it all with him. The Texas experience had to sour him on being the only good player on a team. While I think the Dodgers are on the cusp, I could see A-Rod asking: "Why should I come to a team where the only players I have heard of are over the hill or oft injured?"

If you think selling Plaschke on the youth movement was tough, try Boras and his star client. I want A-Rod, but I do not want the philosophy that he will bring with him.

2007-10-29 10:42:13
19.   dzzrtRatt
Cowherd also interviewed Boras, who must be making the rounds. It's pretty clear that his strategy is:

1) To get the Yankees to back down about negotiating with A-Rod, because

2) He needs the Yankees in the game to get the deal he wants for A-Rod.

He's also saying A-Rod's decision to opt out was designed to give him time to find out what happens with Rivera and Posada. Yeah, I believe that one.

2007-10-29 10:42:21
20.   bhsportsguy
I like this time of year, its interesting to see how things play out.

If you don't like it, I think it tends to fall into that fear catagory that Jon talked about above.

Look, making any move is a risk, a good free agent deal is more the exception than the rule or at least no better than a 50/50 shot.

But trades are not as plentiful as they once were and with the parity in baseball, a lot of teams think that only a few moves can make them contenders.

So, sure, if you want the Dodgers to just keep what they have and see what happens in the spring, then you have a long few months to go but for me, it will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

2007-10-29 10:43:21
21.   wireroom
What it comes down to for me is watching a young team play. I want to watch them even when they are losing games. I would rather watch Laroche given the chance to fail. If he fails, it is because it is in the truest sense of what baseball is about for me. I like watching this young Dodger team play. I don't care either way about Rodriguez as a player.
2007-10-29 10:45:28
22.   Humma Kavula
15 If that's in reference to my post -- and it might not be -- I apologize, I should have been more clear. It isn't Colletti that would lack the guts to do what's right for the team, it's McCourt.

I'll know I should wait for the Torre rumors to be confirmed before saying this, but it certainly seems that McCourt is capricious in his tendency to fire people at the first sign of trouble. If Little is going to be replaced, I believe that it's the owner behind that decision.

2007-10-29 10:49:38
23.   blue22
22 - If Torre does come, I take that as a definite sign that Ned is in big trouble. And when Ned gets backed into the corner, I fear for the results.

But Torre coming on would certainly sway ARod away from coming to LA? They didn't have the greatest of relationships in NY.

2007-10-29 10:49:45
24.   CajunDodger
22
And the owner should take questions behind the podium without Camille to run interference for him. Stand up. Take the criticism. Explain your plan/vision.
2007-10-29 10:51:18
25.   CajunDodger
23
You are right. That is the classic scenario of signing overpriced vets to backloaded deals to ensure that you win NOW and do not have to deal with the consequences after you are gone. Hendry did that with the Cubs and Soriano's contract.
2007-10-29 10:52:01
26.   wireroom
I am also tired of inheriting other peoples has beens. Rodriguez, Torre, Girardi, Kent, Gonzo, Brown and their faded glory. I want the Dodgers to become the next Tigers, Rockies or Indians. I will be happy to watch them lose for a while. I am done talking Dodgers baseball for a while....at least for a while.
2007-10-29 10:52:54
27.   Jon Weisman
For better or worse, A-Rod doesn't strike me as someone to complain, while he is under contract, about the composition of the team.
2007-10-29 10:54:35
28.   fanerman
22 I think what I said could just as easily work for McCourt being an owner. And it certainly seems like he's trigger happy with firing people at the first sign of trouble (where "trouble" is defined by the media's expectations and not his plan for the team).
2007-10-29 10:54:59
29.   blue22
27 - He's always seemed like a good teammate to me. If anything, that's part of the criticism against him - that he's too scripted and calculating, too fake. But he does get thrown under the bus a lot, and Torre let it all happen.
2007-10-29 10:56:53
30.   bhsportsguy
26 Umm, the Tigers have many millions invested in Ordonez, I-Rod, Kenny Rogers and Shef.
2007-10-29 10:57:00
31.   Benaiah
If Penny wasn't a number one last year then your definition of a number one is met by about 7 or 8 pitchers in the big leagues.
2007-10-29 10:58:28
32.   blue22
30 - And previous "has-been" Leyland.
2007-10-29 10:58:44
33.   Bluebleeder87
Really nice read Jon, I just hope everything pans out well.
2007-10-29 10:58:56
34.   Humma Kavula
To what extent is sports fandom separate from the other entertianment we consume?

For example... I'll often stop going to movies that are made by past favorites. For example, take Rob Reiner. He made a bunch of great movies in a row. I went to see some more recent movies just because he directed them. I was a fan, and I was not rewarded. As a result, the situation changed -- now I don't go.

But let's say that the Dodgers give in to their stupidest tendencies this off-season. They sign Mike Lowell and trade LaRoche for pennies on the dollar. They sign Aaron Rowand and move Pierre to left and trade Andre Ethier for a middle reliever. They do not sign a starting pitcher.

Would I, or any of you, stop being Dodger fans? I doubt it. Could anything occur that would be a deal-breaker for you?

Is sports fandom different from other entertainment?

2007-10-29 11:00:36
35.   bhsportsguy
29 It appears to me that in general, fans are more forgiving to the loose cannon approach (Manny being Manny, Shaq) than the say the right thing (A-Rod, early Kobe) approach when it comes to how their superstars come off through the media.

I think one reason the Angels are successful in that way is that really when you think about them, you think of Mike Scioscia, partly becuase their biggest star doesn't really do a lot of media.

That would change with A-Rod, there is no way that Scioscia could stop that media train and I think that is one reason why the Angels will think long and hard about entering this circus.

2007-10-29 11:00:39
36.   Eric Enders
By definition, a #1 starter is one of the 30 best starting pitchers in the majors. Going by that, we have two #1 starters, or possibly three.
2007-10-29 11:02:04
37.   Jon Weisman
36 - I've tried to make this point repeatedly in the past, to little avail.
2007-10-29 11:02:16
38.   D4P
Would I, or any of you, stop being Dodger fans?

Depends on what that means. Does it mean:

1. No longer listing Dodgers as official "favorite team"
2. Not caring (much) whether they win or lose
3. Actively rooting against them
4. Some combination of above

2007-10-29 11:05:40
39.   CajunDodger
31
That is my point, actually. Just because you occupy the top spot in a rotation does not give you a dominant 1-type pitcher. Santana, Beckett, Halladay, Peavy. Those are true #1s. Every time we face San Diego in a three game series, I always think, "Maybe 2 of 3 would be good."

I know that it is semantics, but just like we would all love to have an ARod, Bonds, or Guerrero-type offensive player that causes pitcher sphincters to tighten, I would like to see the Dodgers get a guy like Santana who could do the same to opposing hitters.

Here's hoping that Kershaw/Elbert/McDonald develops into this and leaves us with about $18 million in change.

2007-10-29 11:07:56
40.   fanerman
I don't really feel like signing A-Rod would be a betrayal of the youth movement, or "selling out" to our homegrown roots. The "Last Great Moment in Dodgers History™" was done by a free agent. We could still have Ethier (yeah A's whatever), Kemp, Hu, Abreu, Loney, Martin, Billingley, Broxton, Kershaw, etc., as long as we (the FO) want them anyway.
2007-10-29 11:08:12
41.   Humma Kavula
38 I mean #2.

I watched all or parts of about 100 games last year. I don't know that I could do that if the worst happens... and if the predicted results came to pass, I don't know that I'd do more than shake my head as I read the box score in the morning dog trainer.

2007-10-29 11:10:58
42.   fanerman
39 I still think by that notion that Penny was an "ace," at least for much of the season. Unless you're just referring to the player's reputation and not their current performance. But then Peavy's had his off-years hasn't he?
2007-10-29 11:11:32
43.   wireroom
34 That's my point. I watch the Dodgers because they are the Dodgers and I live and grew up in Los Angeles. What happens is I get excited for some guy like A-Rod when he is signed, the Dodgers don't win it all and I am frustrated.
I watch the young guys play and I end up liking the team. I enjoy the game being played and I don't have to worry about some guy like A-Rod. I guess part of it is, I just don't like A-Rod. That is probably foolish. But maybe if the Dodgers sign him, I will proved wrong which is fine with me.
2007-10-29 11:12:22
44.   CajunDodger
36
By strict definition, I would agree with you, but my point is really about semantics and frustration (and emotion). We are the Dodgers and should have at lease one of the following: A superstar hitter or a superstar pitcher.

It is not a god-given right, but I feel that we deserve it given that Eric Gagne's Cy Young and Beltre's MVP-type season are a couple of years in the rear-view mirror.

2007-10-29 11:12:27
45.   Jon Weisman
I will say that if the Dodgers were to screw up their current youthful core, I'm at a point in my life where I would seriously consider letting go.
2007-10-29 11:14:21
46.   ToyCannon
34
Sure, I stopped following the Dodgers for several years after they traded Piazza and made Sheffield the man and I had a hard time rooting for a team owned by Fox.

I've given up 38 years of being a Laker fan until Kobe is gone.

It is not about being vindictive, I just lost interest.

2007-10-29 11:16:04
47.   Sub4Era
I don't understand how this is even a question. If we don't get A-Rod and stay the path, thats one thing. But I think we are underestimating just how badly Ned wants to spend money to meet his quota every year (Pierre, Schmidt, Gonzalez). If we don't get a player of his caliber we have more signings like this to look forward to. Spend 30 million on a guy who is worth it, and can break records while on the squad creating a marketers dream in the process. As far as LaRoche goes, comparing him to the situation with the dodgers 35+ years ago seems a stretch considering how different the offensive side of the game was back then. Obviously the leash wont be as long, because the playing field offensively has risen considerably.
2007-10-29 11:16:34
48.   JoeyP
38--#2 is actually really easy, but I think that comes with just getting older.

NedCourt inspires apathy bc its like watching a re-run of 89-03 all over again.

"PVL" is a good remedy for insomnia.

2007-10-29 11:16:55
49.   fanerman
34 I think the Dodgers are sort of like part of the family. Sure there are times when I get so angry at the stupidity of their actions, and times when I get detached, but I've never really stopped loving them. At least yet.
2007-10-29 11:17:05
50.   Humma Kavula
45 Question: how do you define "screw up?" Would that have to go farther than what I outlined (sign Lowell and Rowand, trade LaRoche and Ethier, Pierre plays left, no substantial changes to starting pitching)?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-29 11:18:08
51.   JoeyP
I've given up 38 years of being a Laker fan until Kobe is gone.

I've given up 26 years of being a Laker fan until Kupchak/Buss are gone.

2007-10-29 11:19:26
52.   Benaiah
39 - There is no such thing as a "true" number one. There are aces and there are superaces, but by definition a number one is one of the top 30 pitchers in baseball. Billingsley was certainly that down the stretch (3.12 ERA in the second half) and Penny was definitely that before he got tired or whatever (2.39 ERA in the first half).
2007-10-29 11:19:32
53.   CajunDodger
38
Signing Bonds would do it for me until he was off the team...
2007-10-29 11:19:44
54.   fanerman
I still have hope for the Lakers and Kobe and Jerry Buss. Less so for Kupchack and Jim Buss. I'm probably in the minority here.
2007-10-29 11:23:20
55.   Jon Weisman
50 - I'm not looking to define it. I'll know an obscenity when I see it.
2007-10-29 11:24:03
56.   Ken Noe
Forget A-Rod, Torre, and Colletti. Jon has awakened long-dead demons of my youth. Was Rick Monday that much more helpful in the end than Buckner? Or Messersmith for Valentine? Statistically, I have no idea, but I hated, hated those deals at the time. No wonder I still hate moving our kids even today.

I also remember having the least hope in Garvey due to his arm. Hat's off to you Jon, the LaRoche comparison is a good one.

2007-10-29 11:26:42
57.   wireroom
30 I don't think there is anything wrong with signing a good veteran here and there especially when it comes to pitching. Except for Sheff, those other Tigers are all team oriented kind of guys.
2007-10-29 11:29:43
58.   Bleed Dodger Blue
Obviously, this is an unlikely scenario, but ... why couldn't we sign A-Rod, keep LaRoche in Las Vegas (or coming off the bench) for a season, not re-sign Furcal the next year, and move A-Rod to shortstop the next season?

Not only do we keep LaRoche, but we'd also clear ourselves of the 13 mil a year Furcal is raking in ... that would make whatever ungodly sum Rodriguez will be paid seem less harsh.

2007-10-29 11:30:58
59.   jasonungar07
I think back to win Manny took all that crap about his HR and then said he dosen't care if they win the WS because there is always next season. What an amazing bout of leadership without even really trying to be a leader most likely. The press and fans were all over Manny. He took alot of heat off the rest of the team with his comments. Everyone was talking about it...He basically was saying it's just a game, relax and try as hard as you can, other than that, what can you do?

I don't miss Sheffleld, but miss having someone in our lineup like him and I think A-rod around the rest of our young emerging talent gives us a much better chance at winning. We need a bat in the middle of the order that other teams have to game plan around. Lowell looks great when he has Manny and Ortiz in front of him and Drew behind him..

A-rod is that guy right now and will be that guy until Kemp and others are that guy.

If it were up to me (i'll live in Jon's second world) I would package Furcal with others for something special via trade for the OF or pitching help..move A-rod back to short and go with LaNomar at 3b.

2007-10-29 11:31:06
60.   Benaiah
57 - How did signing a good vet like Schmidt work out this year? There is plenty wrong with overspending for past performance when a player is in the decline phase of his career.
2007-10-29 11:32:14
61.   blue22
57 - Ordonez, Pudge, and Kenny Rogers are team-oriented players now? Winning sure helps mend reputations.
2007-10-29 11:33:38
62.   Greg Brock
Two things:

Kurkjian thinks he'll be a Dodger (speculation, but interesting).
The guy was worth 13 wins this year.

2007-10-29 11:33:55
63.   ToyCannon
Just because you have 28 teams doesn't mean you have 28 number one's. Being a number one pitcher for KC does not qualify you as a number one pitcher. When scouts say that a pitcher as number one stuff , they aren't saying he's got Gil Meche stuff, they are saying he has Peavy stuff.
My own opinion is that baseball has < 10 number one pitchers. The hope is that Kershaw will develop into one of those.

You can disagree with me but you'd be disagreeing with people a lot smarter then me who have made the argument that I'm just parroting.

2007-10-29 11:35:26
64.   wireroom
60 I am not saying to sign a veteran like Schmidt to a huge contract or just any guy who comes along.
I am talking about a guy like Kenny Lofton who killed for the Indians this year and the Dodgers instead got Pierre who is Kenny Lofton Light with more years and more money owed to him.
2007-10-29 11:37:32
65.   JT Dutch
45

... I feel the same way, especially after last season. If the Colletti/Little regime continues to stifle this youth movement, it will be only too easy to turn them off and focus on other things.

51

"I've given up 26 years of being a Laker fan until Kupchak/Buss are gone."

... Amen to that. I've been a Laker fan for about the same amount of time as you have, btw. If only West could have stayed on, and Chick would have stayed with us. The organization has never recovered from losing those two.

2007-10-29 11:38:03
66.   D4P
63
What kind of absolute standard do you use to identify a "Number One" pitcher...?
2007-10-29 11:38:10
67.   ToyCannon
58
Good point. We don't have to trade LaRoche just because we sign Arod. I'd be fairly tickled with an infield of Loney, Hu, Arod, LaRoche. Hu could be our cheap version of the O'Dog.
2007-10-29 11:39:54
68.   CajunDodger
52
By your definition Brad Penny was our ace (again, not slamming our workhorse in any way) and the only player we had ranked in the top 30. His 1.31 WHIP and 1.8:1 K/BB ratio does not tell me that he is dominant in any way other than ERA.

Typing it all out, what I guess I would like more than anything is a franchise hitter/pitcher. I do not want an Ace. I want a guy that makes my ticket worth the extra money McCourt will be charging me next season.

Your definition is correct, by the way. I just am itching for the Dodger cornerstone to come along and am too impatient as a relatively new fan to want to wait for Kemp/Loney/Martin/Kershaw to become that guy.

2007-10-29 11:42:38
69.   Jon Weisman
63 = That's not our point. One team can have more than one No. 1 starter.

People can disagree, but to me a No. 1 starter is someone who is good enough to be the top starter on a major league baseball team. To me, that means there are 30 of them. That they are unevenly distributed among the teams is beside the point.

2007-10-29 11:43:09
70.   Bumsrap
There is another scenario that could exist if AROD is signed other than the one that has Ned doing things that appear to him are win now things.

Ned will not have the money he now has without AROD if he signs AROD. Ned might think he has to sign somebody like Schmidt because he thinks he can win now but he might not have the money to do it.

Signing AROD could take away the stupid veteran signings that keep reducing Dodgers ability to move forward and keep them repeating two decades of status quo.

2007-10-29 11:44:06
71.   bhsportsguy
65 I am amazed that the legend of Jerry West continues years after he left. Do people forget he was the GM from 1989 to 2000 when the Lakers won squat. That his drafts were never his strongpoint (albeit he never had low picks but nevertheless).

He made two great deals in 1996, signing Shaq and trading for Kobe and then he spent 4 more years picking up pieces but it took signing Jackson to coach that put the team over the top.

I would argue that while Phil was the right coach, his style and preference for veterans has hurt the Lakers as they are constructed today.

Now, there are many who fantasize that Jerry West could have kept the peace and the Lakers would still have Shaq and Kobe and a few more rings. To that, I have no answer but does that make him the savior that many think he is, to that, I have one question, how come Memphis is no better today than they were 5 years ago when Jerry took the keys to that franchise?

2007-10-29 11:44:37
72.   blue22
68 - Brad Penny was 5th in the major leagues in pitcher VORP in '07. That has to count for something, right? Maybe it's retroactive, but Penny pitched like an ace this year.
2007-10-29 11:44:59
73.   Benaiah
I don't think there is an even distribution of number one starters, but there are still by definition 30 number ones. Obviously they aren't all created equal, but I maintain that is literally what "number one starter" means.
2007-10-29 11:47:42
74.   blue22
71 - Jerry West is the only man that had both Kobe and Shaq's unflinching loyalty and respect. He ultimately may not have been able to salvage the Kobe/Shaq relationship, but he at least would've kept Shaq's pending departure quiet enough to get better value in a trade. Kupchak doesn't have enough juice with Kobe, Shaq, any of the Buss's to be a worthwile decision maker for the Lakers.
2007-10-29 11:47:56
75.   MikeB
I believe the key element in the A-Rod sweepstakes is determining what A-Rod (Boras) really wants for his next stop on the way to the HOF.
1. Money - he could have just stayed with the Yankees and made lots of money
2. Power (influence if you will) - over what - the roster? the choice of manager? the color of the paint on the clubhouse walls?
3. Location - does he prefer the East Coast, West Coast, or it doesn't matter?
4. Quality of the team - does the roster complement his talent/ego or a desire to finally win a ring?
5. Management - the owner, the GM, the manager, the coaching staff
6. The local media - will they treat him as the 2nd coming - or will they villify him as a cold-blooded, egotistical mercenary?
7. Baseball immortality? - Does he choose a team & ballpark conducive to chasing the HR record. The current Yankee stadium is notorious for being difficult for RH batters. Do his chances of breaking the record improve at his new home field?
2007-10-29 11:51:27
76.   bhsportsguy
74 In hindsight, if they had kept Caron Butler (and no Kwame Brown), the team would have had another viable scoring option and would have probably been a lot closer to moving up in the Western Conference.

Its really hard to get equal value when trading superstars especially given the salary restrictions unless you are doing a mega-star for mega-star deal.

2007-10-29 11:52:10
77.   bhsportsguy
74 And how could he have kept Shaq's departure quiet, once he was being shopped, it would have leaked out?
2007-10-29 11:53:25
78.   wireroom
So Girardi is the Yankee manager now.
2007-10-29 11:53:26
79.   fanerman
74 Getting Odom and Butler for Shaq didn't kill the Lakers. It's getting Kwame for Butler. But that's still a decent point. I think the West-nostalgia has as much to do with being unhappy about Kupchak's performance as it does being happy about West's.
2007-10-29 11:54:34
80.   fanerman
76 I was about to say that but my post disappeared. I think Mitch got a decent return for Shaq, all things considered. But Caron for Kwame. That one says ouch.
2007-10-29 11:56:12
81.   fanerman
And there it is.
2007-10-29 11:57:17
82.   Bumsrap
By definition, a #1 starter is one of the 30 best starting pitchers in the majors. Going by that, we have two #1 starters, or possibly three

An ace is a pitcher that stops losing streaks, keeps a team in the game in 90% or more of their starts, can win the big game, can shut down another teams offense, can dominate a team 50% of their starts, can get a strike out when really needed, is clutch with risp, has an era under 3.1, wins 16 or more games usually, pitches 7 or more innings 85% of his starts.

I don't think there are 30 aces each year and yes, I randomly pulled numbers out of a hat to make the above statement.

2007-10-29 12:00:56
83.   Disabled List
I was a huge LA Kings fan when I was growing up, since I had a buddy whose family had season tickets. Hockey was never a passion for me, but those were great years to be a Kings fan, right after Gretzky arrived. The '93 Finals were the high point, when my interest in hockey was at its peak.

Then the team started to collapse. The face of the franchise was traded, and each season of failure became progressively more frustrating, thanks to a seemingly unbreakable cycle of management stupidity. The Mickey Mouse team in Orange County started winning, which just added to the aggravation.

Of course, the above paragraph also applies to the Dodgers. I don't have anything more than passing interest in the Kings now. If they were to start winning again, great. But incompetent management killed them for me.

I doubt the same thing would happen to me with the Dodgers, just because baseball is in my blood. But I could see my interest in the team fading because of a chronic inability of management to figure out what it takes to put a winning team on the field. And it terrifies me that I see the warning signs all over the place.

2007-10-29 12:01:21
84.   jasonungar07
Welp 81 Break me off a piece of that applesauce. Chrysler car. Football cream.

Break me off a piece of that Grey Poupon.

2007-10-29 12:02:49
85.   LAT
One of the most amazing things about the ARod situation is how little $21 million means. The real winner in all this is Rangers.

By opting out is the Rangers $21M obligtion terminated even if ARod re-signs with the Yankees next month.

2007-10-29 12:03:32
86.   fanerman
84 No offense, but, I have no idea what you're talking about.
2007-10-29 12:03:38
87.   RIYank
Did anyone else think that the title of this posting might be the eighth Harry Potter book?
2007-10-29 12:04:18
88.   RIYank
86 The Office episode last week.
2007-10-29 12:04:35
89.   kinbote
8 makes an interesting point. if torre is the manager, he might not be afraid to bench pierre. if this is true, i'm not altogether against the idea. basically, $9million + $7million = zero. perfect!

what a crazy day of speculation. i have to think if we are seriously pursuing torre, we will definitely go hard after a-rod.

at first blush, i see a-rod as the perfect fit for the angels. i also see the giants as a potential fit.

i personally fall more into the "don't-do-it" camp [which makes me stupid, i guess], but that's just based on the obscene contract that will doubtlessly be involved. i'd rather give the money to our boys.

2007-10-29 12:05:13
90.   StolenMonkey86
Interestingly, the 1971 National League Most Valuable Player was a third baseman, and a name that has come up in Dodger conversation in recent days.

Joe Torre did play 3rd base at age 30 in 1971, but he did so after being a catcher for a while. He caught 903 career games and played some first base as well, and he was also the starting catcher for the NL All-Star team for 1964-1967.

2007-10-29 12:08:51
91.   DougS
Since Jon began with tales of Steve Garvey and the last time that the Dodgers brought up as many good, young players as they have now: Didn't Garvey's emergence as an offensive player coincide with his switching from 3B, where his weak arm made him a liability, to 1B? Or is my middle-aged memory playing tricks on me again? Not saying that LaRoche's situation is comparable, but it's interesting that the Dodgers were quite willing to futz around with where a guy played back then. Lopes and Russell were both converted outfielders, IIRC.
2007-10-29 12:12:22
92.   DougS
89 I think the A-Rod issue comes down to the amount of money that inevitably will be involved. If he provides excellent value for the team and is all that plus a bag of chips, well, fine. But a huge contract cuts down on your options in case things don't work out exactly as planned (either with him or others). And the larger and longer the contract, the greater the risk that it will backfire on you.
2007-10-29 12:22:53
93.   ishXdavid
A-Rod is the type of superstar that can catapult the Dodgers to the top of this star-driven city. The Lakers have been in decline for a few years and Kobe Bryant's future in LA appears bleak. USC football is on its way down, and as big a star as David Beckham is in the world, he's fourth-fiddle at best in LA. A-Rod is going to cost a fortune, but the team will make it up in ancillary income. With our farm system bursting at the seams with talent, I would think we're in the best position we've ever been to sign a premier free agent. Is spending all that money on one proven superstar worse than wasting it on the Hendricksons, Pierres, and Tomkos of the world? A-Rod wants to win a World Series and if he helps lead our kids to the promised land, he'll be a hero in Dodger lore. I would also love to see him in a Dodger uniform when he passes Barry Bonds because that chase will be embraced by everyone in baseball.
2007-10-29 12:25:35
94.   adamclyde
has anyone talked about a-rod moving back to shortstop? that's obviously not relevant to the Dodgers discussion, since they need 3rd base, but may factor into other teams who have a good 3rd base and open SS? I guess if a team has an open left-infield position open, they are looking at him regardless, but just not sure if it's been explicitly mentioned yet.

don't know really, and maybe a-rod and boras are loathe to switch back after a perceived rocky first year or two switching to third in the first place...

2007-10-29 12:26:08
95.   Benaiah
82 - I don't think anyone is an ace anymore by your definition. Here is Jake Peavy's numbers in 07:

Quality Start%: 82.3% Well under the 90% benchmark.
Dominant Start%: 50% Right on the line.
7+ innings %: 61.7% way under 85%.
And he gave up 8+ runs on Oct. 1 in a must win game.

If Jake Peavy wasn't an ace this year then the list of aces in baseball history is: Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez. That's it.

2007-10-29 12:30:26
96.   rockmrete
Part of the sale to McCourt involved Fox maintaining TV rights to the Dodgers. Does anyone know if it had an expiration date?
2007-10-29 12:33:33
97.   Benaiah
96 - 10 years.
2007-10-29 12:34:05
98.   MikeB
96. Here's the memo outlining the details of the sale by Fox to McCourt (BizofBaseball.com)
http://tinyurl.com/27n89o
2007-10-29 12:34:40
99.   fanerman
95 He did say that he made those numbers up. But his definition is basically either a hall-of-famer or someone having a hall-of-fame year or years.
2007-10-29 12:35:33
100.   trainwreck
ESPN is now saying we are going after Joe Torre. I really hope we hurry up and move on with this manager situation, because I think it just makes us look like a dysfunctional organization.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-29 12:35:47
101.   ishXdavid
94 I used to love watching A-Rod play shortstop, but I wouldn't want my $30M+ shortstop covering second with a runner intent on breaking up a double-play.
2007-10-29 12:36:11
102.   Bob Timmermann
96
Either 2013 or 2014.
2007-10-29 12:37:12
103.   Bob Timmermann
it just makes us look like a dysfunctional organization.

Sometimes appearances are not deceiving.

2007-10-29 12:38:01
104.   trainwreck
Caron Butler has been so successful recently, because he went to an Eastern Conference offensive oriented team. He would never be that type of scorer or player for the Lakers. Yes, he would be better than Kwame, but Lakers still would not be much better.
2007-10-29 12:38:19
105.   trainwreck
103
This is true.
2007-10-29 12:38:51
106.   rockmrete
Thanks,

By the time ARod is approaching the record for HRs, the new TV deal will be front, and center providing McCourt addition revenue, and or increased selling potential.

2007-10-29 12:39:59
107.   Louis in SF
91
That is my memory, I saw one of Garvy's worse games at 3rd base-his defense was terrible. However, as I recall the move of Garvey to 3rd made the Dodgers trade Buckner to the Cubs.

I think we are in a different era right now where teams are not nearly as patient and the Dodgers biggest need right now is to decide on a philosophy and stick with it. I actually think they had one towards the end of last year-going with the youth and playing Pierre...If the Dodgers sign Torre I don't think it will make a difference in Pierre's playing time. That is dictated by his contract, can't prove it but Little was just following orders.

2007-10-29 12:40:12
108.   D4P
What are the chances Torre accepts less money to manage the Dodgers than he turned down from the Yankees?
2007-10-29 12:40:18
109.   fanerman
104 It's not so much trading Butler. It's trading him for Kwame. I think the Lakers would still have to trade him, but they shouldn't have traded Butler (a pretty sure thing) for a big risk like Kwame, a player with unrealized potential.
2007-10-29 12:40:33
110.   ToyCannon
Looking at Jon's lineup, I remember they always made a big deal about moving Russel from CF to SS as though it was a great move. I recall Russel being an excellent CF who became at best an average defender at SS. Why was it ballyhooed as such a great move? Wouldn't we have been better off to keep Valentin as SS and not trade for an over the hill Frank Robinson and leave Russel in CF?
2007-10-29 12:41:28
111.   trainwreck
Buster Olney is saying we are in buy-out talks with Little.
2007-10-29 12:42:18
112.   ToyCannon
105
Disagree, Caron has really grown his game. Kobe would not be so upset if he had Caron and Lamar around him.
2007-10-29 12:43:22
113.   trainwreck
109
The sad thing is that Kwame is our best defensive player. Kobe should be, but he does not give full effort at all times when it comes to defense.
2007-10-29 12:43:56
114.   blue22
108 - Torre said that he would be willing, and expected, a pay cut to manage another team.
2007-10-29 12:44:23
115.   trainwreck
112
Where has his game grown? Because he was very successful his rookie year too. He has always been a good scorer, a good defender, and a decent rebounder for a small forward.
2007-10-29 12:49:32
116.   blue22
115 - for a small forward

Which the Lakers had in bunches at the time. They needed a big body, and Kwame was a decent gamble. It just really turned out badly.

They can still salvage it, considering he's got an expiring contract this year. Assuming he shows he's not completely worthless (which is still a possibility) he can be a pretty valuable trade piece.

2007-10-29 12:51:02
117.   blue22
114 - he would be willing to take a pay cut...
2007-10-29 12:51:11
118.   trainwreck
Caron has always been good, I just do not think another scorer can flourish with Kobe around unless they are a post player.
2007-10-29 12:51:55
119.   StolenMonkey86
is buying out little important for getting Nomar to waive his no trade clause?
2007-10-29 12:52:30
120.   RIYank
108 Yeah, 114 is exactly right.
He said that the Yankees were paying him for his Yankee success, so of course he wouldn't expect anything close to that from another team.
The logic is a bit obscure to me, but it's very clear that it's Torre's logic.
2007-10-29 12:53:01
121.   D4P
117
I guess chivalry is not dead...
2007-10-29 12:54:23
122.   Bob Timmermann
121
California has lower taxes than New York.

And there aren't many states that meet that qualification.

2007-10-29 12:56:34
123.   blue22
It just means it was the circumstances to the Yankees offer, not the actual dollar amount, that caused Torre to reject it. It was an offer designed for Torre to reject, which he did. He gets to look like he dumped them, while the Yankees get the man they wanted all along.
2007-10-29 12:57:14
124.   Dark Horse
Meanwhile, the Yankees have gone ahead and hired Girardi, eh?

At least we know why (if at all) he turned us down.

2007-10-29 12:58:48
125.   Dark Horse
100-Yeah. I'd hate for anyone to get the impression ours was a dysfunctional organization. I mean, I can't really imagine where such an idea could've come from.
2007-10-29 13:01:03
126.   blue22
I can't believe this might happen again. Well, last time it started with the manager but the GM was gone by the end of the month too. I guess there's a silver lining in here somewhere.
2007-10-29 13:06:21
127.   StolenMonkey86
127 - Well, since we have 3 assistant GMs, would we go with an internal candidate this time?
2007-10-29 13:06:24
128.   Marty
I'm getting old and senile, but I thought West had success with more than just the Shaq-era Lakers. I seem to remember the team being pretty good in the 80's and West was the GM for most of that, right?
2007-10-29 13:08:22
129.   blue22
126 - Torre and Ng are familiar with each other, from her time with the Yankees. Maybe he makes her promotion a condition upon accepting the job :)
2007-10-29 13:09:39
130.   ToyCannon
115
Yes, he had a great rookie year where his PER was over 15 but he fell back in his sophmore year to 10. His career growth in PER
Per Hollinger the stat guy at ESPN.
2002/03 15.3
2003/04 10.75
2004/05 15.73
2005/06 17.11
2006/07 18.41

2006-07 season: Butler can't make 3s, but he's become a phenomenal midrange jump shooter. Over the past three seasons, he's increased both his attempts and his accuracy on long 2-pointers, and done so by a fair amount. As a Laker in 2004-05, he took 27.7 percent of his shots from that range and made 37.7 percent; by last year he took 40.1 percent from out there and made 44.1 percent.

2007-10-29 13:10:33
131.   trainwreck
128
You are correct. He became GM in 1982.
2007-10-29 13:12:26
132.   trainwreck
130
Yeah, he got hurt his sophomore year, plus the team added Wade and Odom. Obviously, having Kobe as a teammate did not help him.

I just think the talent was always there, just question of being in right place.

2007-10-29 13:13:23
133.   StolenMonkey86
Ned Colletti's bio on Dodgers.com lists that he's the author of 4 books. I found 3 at Amazon

http://tinyurl.com/2knp3x

2007-10-29 13:19:35
134.   trainwreck
Woah.

Renteria just traded to Tigers. I have not seen the players the Braves are getting back yet.

2007-10-29 13:21:13
135.   LogikReader
link me
2007-10-29 13:22:19
136.   ToyCannon
128
West inherited Magic and Kareem and got the gift of James Worthy when the Cavaliars traded us their number one pick for Don Ford in an earlier deal in which West was not part of. So yes he was the GM when we won our string of championships but come on, Magic, Kareem, and Worthy were a pretty good core to build a championship team around. Elmer Fudd might have been able to tape together a championship with those three. After Kareem retired and Magic got laid the team hit the doldrums until he put together all by himself a nice playoff team in 95 but not a championship team. Until he signed Shaq and traded Vlady for Kobe the 90's hadn't been all that kind to Mr. West's reputation. Even with Shaq he was unable to win until they signed Phil Jackson to coach.
2007-10-29 13:23:05
137.   blue22
"Tigers acquired shortstop Edgar Renteria from the Braves for RHP Jair Jurrjens and outfielder Gorkys Hernandez."

No link, other than Rotoworld reporting it.

2007-10-29 13:23:58
138.   ToyCannon
I'd heard that they were going to move Guillen to 1st and at 1st he was reluctant to make the move until they told him who was going to play SS. This trade must have been in house for quite a while and they weren't able to announce it until today.
2007-10-29 13:24:17
139.   trainwreck
135
It is just on TV so far. Can't find a good link on internet yet.
2007-10-29 13:25:02
140.   bigcpa
Guillen is signed through 2011. Polanco to 2009. Guillen has a "partial no-trade."
2007-10-29 13:25:16
141.   ToyCannon
Nice trade for the Braves, they have a replacement in house for Renteria and they pickup up a much needed starting pitcher and a possible centerfielder and reduce salary. Good start for Wren.
2007-10-29 13:25:38
142.   blue22
So did this just take Detroit out of the running for ARod?
2007-10-29 13:26:51
143.   LogikReader
If that's true, and depending on how the prospies pan out, the Braves might have made up for all the guys they sent in the Texiera deal.

As of right now I don't know who wins that transaction.

---

unrelated question (for those who like FF): in Fantasy Football, is it wise to trade Donald Driver for Chris Chambers, if your QB is Philip Rivers?

2007-10-29 13:28:24
144.   trainwreck
143
No. Driver is a proven fantasy player, while Chambers on the Chargers is not.
2007-10-29 13:29:17
145.   dzzrtRatt
I could see letting go of baseball -- particularly if you ask me right now, after a four-game World Series that seemed more like 40 games -- but as long as I'm a baseball fan, I'm a Dodger fan.

I never understand commments like, "If they get Mike Lowell I would seriously reconsider being a fan." Lowell (or Hunter or Jones or whoever) might not be the smartest plan, on the other hand, it might work out. I want the Dodgers' moves to work out, even the ones that look bad on paper.

Colletti is not an ideal GM, but he's only the third-worst LA Dodger GM at this point (after Kevin Malone and Fred Claire), and I'm not sure if the Dodgers have ever had a really good one.

I don't know where I stand yet on Torre...maybe leaning favorably. If Torre brings some of his coaches with him, I could be more favorable. But buying out Little is a superb idea. In retrospect, he was the biggest problem on the Dodgers this season, IMO. Why? Because he made out the lineups. He chose the starting pitchers. And he let the clubhouse conflict percolate without asserting his authority effectively. The first two problems, I don't know if Torre will be better, but he could hardly be worse. The third problem, I feel pretty confident Torre would be a lot tougher on whiners.

2007-10-29 13:29:57
146.   Daniel Zappala
Jon, you listed three arguments against signing Rodriguez:

1) adding Rodriguez's salary would put too many eggs in one basket by leaving the Dodgers vulnerable if he were injured, 2) adding Rodriguez's salary to the team would prevent the Dodgers from making other necessary improvements to the squad and 3) adding Rodriguez would encourage a win-now philosophy that would renew the Dodgers' hopeless cycle of exchanging young talent for over-the-hill talent.

and you send they all come down to fear. I don't think 2) comes down to fear. Every team has to balance its payroll, and the Dodgers apparently have a lower spending limit than the Red Sox and Yankees. There is a real chance that, if the Dodgers sign Rodriguez, this will reduce their chances of signing other impact players, possibly even resigning their own players if they develop into stars.

So I would chalk that up to a management concern, not a fear. The Dodgers, more than most teams, probably have the space to sign Rodriguez, which is why I'm in favor of it from a business standpoint, but they don't ultimately have an unlimited payroll backed by a TV station.

2007-10-29 13:32:07
147.   StolenMonkey86
MLB.com has it now
2007-10-29 13:32:42
148.   wronghanded
144 I would do it, I have Driver in my fantasy league and even with GB's success he has only put up mediocre numbers. Chambers on the other hand will have defenses that are keying on LT and to a large extent Gates, so I see a lot of one on one match-ups for him which will definitely play to his advantage.
2007-10-29 13:33:12
149.   Xeifrank
how come Memphis is no better today than they were 5 years ago when Jerry took the keys to that franchise?

Bingo! This has been one of my arguments to the Kupchack haters/West lovers. Memphis is a mess. They have progressively gotten worse under West.

And my 2 cents about the Lakers problems. There are many, but the one that sticks out in my mind is the Brian Grant contract that the Lakers were stuck with in the Shaq trade. It's one thing to get 20 cents on the dollar in a trade, but the Brian Grant contract that the Lakers were saddled with, killed them for a few years on their salary cap.

vr, Xei

2007-10-29 13:33:33
150.   GobiasIndustries
143
I would make that deal. With the emergence of DeShawn Wynn in the running game, James Jones and Greg Jennings at WR, and Donal Lee/Bubba Franks at the TE positions, that all adds up to a lot more options for Favre instead of the once "ol reliable" Driver.
Chambers and Rivers already hooked up once in their first game together and that is a GREAT sign. I would most definitely make that deal.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-29 13:38:31
151.   D4P
Links currently up on ESPN.com that I won't be clicking:

Simmons: Behold a new dynasty
Wojciechowski: Red Sox Universe

2007-10-29 13:39:38
152.   gibsonhobbs88
I find these Dodger moves to be reactionary, dumping Little when Ned's moves have been the real stumbling block to the team being successful. Personally, I feel A-Rod is better suited to the Angels as 89 suggested who really only need 1 big bat to protect Vladimir so throwing a lot of money into the A-Rod basket would make more sense to them than the Dodgers who have more pressing starting pitching needs. Like Jon says, we don't know what type of pitcher Schmidt will be next year, Loaiza - a better 5th than Tomrickson but maybe not as good as a young stud like Elbert, Kersaw, ect. from the farm. For this year, we can have Penny, Bills, Lowe, Schmidt and pick your 5th and either trade a couple pieces including Pierre (Torii gone, need CF), a top pitching prospect and 1 position player for Johan Santana, then you can have Santana, Penny, Bills, Lowe and Schmidt. That would be a heck of a staff with a young core of talented players behind them.That way Schmidt can be replaced by whatever young pitcher we didn't give to the Twins for Santana. Or we wait and hope the Twins don't trade with someone else at the deadline and sign him as a free agent next year. In any case, the Hot Stove league is like a good mystery, you never know when the plot twist will come and what surprises (good or bat)await.
2007-10-29 13:40:05
153.   delias man
I still think LaRoche has a better chance to move to 2B and become a Kent-like force over there for years to come.
2007-10-29 13:40:23
154.   PadreJeremy
How can a team that will sign guys like Pierre and Schmidt to big money deals even hesitate to pursue Rodriguez because he might get injured or decline like Joe Torre did? Is the hesitation because of Andy LaRoche? If Andy can hit, teach him to pay 1b. Rodriguez is a match made in heaven for the Dodgers. If you will give a big money contract to Kevin Brown, step up and pay ARod and get him. The opportunity couldnt be better. Its like bringing Gretzky to the Kings in terms of talent.

As for the Lakers, I am a big fan and hate to see them not contend, but I am so sick of Kobe. What deals was Kupchak supposed to make? Butler, who played the same position as Kobe, for Kwame was a good risk that didnt work. Trade Bynum for Kidd so you can get eliminated in the second round?

Dont trade Kobe for crap, but if you get a good deal let him go or else let him walk in two years. His attitude is not good for the franchise.

2007-10-29 13:40:51
155.   regfairfield
137 Exactly what the Braves needed to do. I don't know enough about the prospects scouting wise to say if it was a good deal (neither looks amazing statistically), but it's good to know that he at least recognized what needed to be done.
2007-10-29 13:41:14
156.   ToyCannon
149
That is not quite fair. In the 2005/2006 season they were one of the great surprises of the league. Last year they fell a part when their best player got hurt, but to say "progressively gotten worse" is not correct. They may be at the same point now as they were when West took over but a lot happened during those 5 years.
2007-10-29 13:43:26
157.   blue22
149 - West came on following the '01-02 season. They had a franchise high 23 wins that year. Franchise record.

The first season with West, they went 28-54 (the "best" season in team history). They then made the playoffs 3 years in a row, in the West no less!

2007-10-29 13:44:16
158.   regfairfield
146 Only in 2008 should A-Rod money be an issue for the Dodgers. If they pay A-Rod 30 million a year, they'd still be somewhere between 80-85 million for the whole team come 2009. Plenty of room to get Santana, or any other upgrades the team can't fill from within.
2007-10-29 13:46:13
159.   ToyCannon
157
Perspective is needed. They had 23 wins and then 28 wins which means they had two high lottery picks. Most teams will take those high lottery picks and improve unless Elgin Baylor is making the picks.
2007-10-29 13:46:50
160.   dzzrtRatt
The New Yorker's literate elegy for Joe Torre:

http://tinyurl.com/2np9gu

2007-10-29 13:47:10
161.   blue22
151 - I, for one, welcome our new New England overlords.
2007-10-29 13:47:35
162.   Eric Enders
158 Except that once 2010 and 2011 roll around, we'd be trying to pay A-Rod's contract while also throwing around the mega-millions that will be required to keep our own players, like Martin, Kemp, Loney, and Billingsley, through their arbitration and free agency years.
2007-10-29 13:47:36
163.   das411
Man oh man, all this angst and it's still only the first day of the offseason!

Re: the Renteria deal, as a Phils Phan it is quite simply terrific to see E-Rent leave the division...kind of like I would hope Dodger fans feel about a certain #25 leaving the Giants. But isn't Jurrjens the 7 foot tall pitcher?

and who else thinks that this ARod opening will enable Omar Minaya to complete his quest and ship D-Wright out of town, say to the Marlins for Dontrelle, and then have a Reyes-Rodriguez left side of the IF?

2007-10-29 13:48:09
164.   regfairfield
152 This is one of the few cases where you can say "you have Jason Tyner, why would you need...". The Twins don't want Juan Pierre unless their new GM is a twit.
2007-10-29 13:48:58
165.   regfairfield
163 I think Omar would recieve death threats if he did that.
2007-10-29 13:52:56
166.   Xeifrank
156. Perhaps I was a little too harsh, but Gasol only missed something like 23 games and they lost 60 games. Statistically, Gasol had the best season of his career.
vr, Xei
2007-10-29 13:53:13
167.   Eric Enders
163 No, the 7-foot guy is a project from the Netherlands and plays for Minnesota. Jurrjens is a 6-foot-1 guy from Curacao who's considerably more polished and has already acquitted himself pretty well in the majors at age 21.
2007-10-29 13:54:29
168.   gibsonhobbs88
154 - One problem, we have Loney at 1B that can hit and field very well. LaRoche can possibly replace Kent at 2B where we also have Abreau as a possible replacement and we have Hu if we lose Furcal after next year to play SS. Due to the clubhouse dissension that erupted last September, this would be the logical reason to relieve Little and hire a Torre to manage the egos should they land A-Rod.
2007-10-29 13:55:11
169.   ToyCannon
166
Yeah, they stunk last year but you seemed to have ignored the year before.
2007-10-29 13:55:33
170.   blue22
166 - What about the 3 seasons before that when they made the playoffs in the hyper-competitive Western conference?
2007-10-29 13:56:46
171.   LogikReader
144, 148, 150

2 yeses and a no; I'll check out how Driver does tonight and make my decision at about 9pm.

Could be worth the risk; I have Bobby Engram in my back pocket if things don't work out.

---

Man lots of topics here today: Jerry West, Arod, Torre... Well just to chime in here, I'd say things really changed for me as a Laker fan after "the breakup". Kobe got what he wanted: to be the man on a mediocre team. I don't know what else he expects, really.

I always have been and will be a Lakers fan, but I can put more of my heart into it once they put Kobe out of his misery.

2007-10-29 13:56:50
172.   bigcpa
The fact that Torre immediately utilized Betemit at every infield position suggests that 1) he places a high priority on offense and 2) grasps that low AVG, high K batters can be productive. Also with Damon/Giambi he has been able to rotate expensive guys out of the linuep so why not Nomar/Pierre?
2007-10-29 13:57:13
173.   LogikReader
Thank you all very much for your advice re: FF. It was very helpful.
2007-10-29 13:58:41
174.   gibsonhobbs88
164 - We can only dream that he is a "twit" :)

Sorry, I forgot about the young, energetic Jason Tyner, my apologies!! I was just so desperately hopeful of unloading Pierre that I had blinders on, LOL!!

2007-10-29 14:02:50
175.   CajunDodger
146
I see the Dodgers as the best place for ARod for a couple of reasons:

1) Room for attendance growth. The Sox are at 100% and the Yanks will be with the new ballpark. The Dodgers would immediately see a bump in attendance of at least 200,000 or so.

2) Ability to be competitive immediately. For the Dodgers, we underachieved and were still over .500. With our young core, we will be competitive for the next 5-7 years. Something that the Giants definitely can not say.

3) Media Market: Marketability for ARod would be at an all-time high with Kobe exiting, SC football down, and Beckham being a bust. He could own this town. He would rather own, I think, LA than Seattle or San Francisco

For these reasons, it looks like the Dodgers and Angels will be the only ones who will be in the mix. Maybe the Mets as a dark horse.

2007-10-29 14:03:59
176.   Kevin Lewis
OT:

Any good batting cages near Pasadena?

2007-10-29 14:06:31
177.   gibsonhobbs88
175 - I still think the Cubs are another team that could be in the mix, though he would have to move back to SS since they have a solid 3B in Aramis already. He could turn the Cubs into a AL dangerous like lineup. Could they afford A-Rod, Zambrano and Soriano? That is the question!!
2007-10-29 14:07:06
178.   regfairfield
174 Hey, don't knock Jason Tyner, the man has a bobblehead.
2007-10-29 14:09:34
179.   Jon Weisman
I never thought of the Yankee clubhouse as any kind of paradise. Am I wrong? Are the Jeter-Rodriguez-Sheffield-etc. stories considered some kind of triumph for Torre?
2007-10-29 14:11:32
180.   bhsportsguy
177 MLB has to approve the sale of the Cubs and they would probably tell them that they would frown greatly on adding that much [more] debt to their franchise, particurlarly when it now the Cubs will no longer be part of a huge media corporation where there economics can be absorbed.
2007-10-29 14:12:02
181.   ToyCannon
177
They could afford him but they are being sold and usually MLB will not agree to a contract like that for a team that is in the process of being sold. Otherwise we'd have Vlady playing RF.

A Tiger infield of Guillen/Polanco/Renteria/Arod would be pretty sweet to go along with the young pitching. However if I'm Arod I'd flee to the NL where it won't be so hard to get into the World Series instead of trying to knock off Boston/NY.

2007-10-29 14:12:13
182.   blue22
177 - I think the Cubs would be more inclined to trade ARam and replace him with ARod. I can't see how they can continue to add payroll at this rate (last offseason's spree, then the Zambrano contract, now ARod?).
2007-10-29 14:13:05
183.   trainwreck
Yeah, hiring Torre would probably hurt the Dodgers if they wanted A-Rod. A-Rod has problems with Torre for dropping him down in the order during the playoffs.
2007-10-29 14:13:29
184.   LogikReader
-- and if the Cubs get A-Rod anyway, what can Selig really do? I mean really?

[the similarities between this and the Dodger Sale are frightening]

2007-10-29 14:13:51
185.   trainwreck
180
BH, totally agreed with your post to Tracy on BRO.
2007-10-29 14:14:09
186.   dzzrtRatt
175 I just wonder if ARod wants to leave the AL. It's the glamour league. The media, not without some justification, looks at the NL as the mediocre parity league, the league where the Florida Marlins, the Houston Astros and the Colorado Rockies can get to the World Series.

Also, I think Arod is a confirmed East Coaster.

Other than that, I would agree, the Dodgers seem to be near the top of the list of likely destinations. I'm still not sold that he won't end up back on the Yankees.

2007-10-29 14:14:10
187.   bhsportsguy
175 To me, LA has never been a great media market as far as guys making extra bucks schilling stuff in LA. Outside of Grovy Grove, what ads does Kobe do for just the local market.

Now it helps because the teams themselves are more likely to be on national TV games throughout the year so you get that "free" publicity if you are national ad guy for Nike, Gatorade, whatever.

2007-10-29 14:14:49
188.   ToyCannon
Torre used to play Luis Sojo all over the place and it drove me crazy. Even when I was rooting againt them.
2007-10-29 14:16:11
189.   bhsportsguy
185 Thanks, I just can't stand it when everyone says that it depends what happens the next few games, even if they win out and win the Rose Bowl (I'll be happy about it), it doesn't change the fundamental question of do you like where the program is going?

Don't forget, I am happy to send you some B-Ball game tickets if you make it down here.

2007-10-29 14:16:40
190.   CajunDodger
180
Realistically, wouldn't that just leave the Angels, Dodgers, Giants, Mets, and Boston? The more that happens (Renteria trade, Lowell winning the MVP) the more it looks like the Mets, Dodgers, and Angels.

Watch, Boras will probably convince the Marlins to blow 10/$400 mil on the guy.

2007-10-29 14:17:53
191.   blue22
187 - Does ARod want to act? Get him a cameo on Entourage and he'll be hooked.
2007-10-29 14:19:31
192.   blue22
190 - White Sox? Don't discount Ken Williams becoming a factor. They currently have Crede and Uribe on the left side. I believe Josh Fields is their big 3B prospect, but isn't as well-rounded of a player as LaRoche.
2007-10-29 14:21:04
193.   trainwreck
190
For what it's worth (which is not much) a trustworthy guy on another sportsboard I frequent, talked to A-Rod over the weekend and he said his preference was to play in Florida.
2007-10-29 14:22:26
194.   LogikReader
I know you were just joking, but I don't think the Marlins will pay 40 mil a year for any guy when the entire team is making 30 million.

I still can't believe that... 30 million?

2007-10-29 14:23:24
195.   blue22
193 - If he wants an ownership stake, that's where it'll come from. Of course, the Marlins would have to solve their new problem of having 2 All-World third basemen.
2007-10-29 14:23:50
196.   trainwreck
194
Loria easily has the money to spend on the team if he wanted.

He could pay for a stadium in Florida too if he wanted.

2007-10-29 14:23:58
197.   Xeifrank
If the Cubs sign ARod, then Mark Cuban better be the guy buying the team! :)
vr, Xei
2007-10-29 14:24:17
198.   trainwreck
195
As simple as moving Cabrera to left field.
2007-10-29 14:26:06
199.   blue22
198 - You're just going to displace Josh Willingham that easy? :)

I was more thinking of sending Cabrera west-ward, but I'm not even that "huge" of a fan of his (pun intended, though not necessarily funny).

2007-10-29 14:27:13
200.   das411
Yknow folks, the Marlins are not the only MLB team in Florida...
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-29 14:27:34
201.   LogikReader
What a new world this is... in the 21st Century, the Red Sox and Patriots are sports dynasties, the Yankees can't afford to pay A-Rod, and Rutgers and South Florida contend for national championships...
2007-10-29 14:28:07
202.   ToyCannon
Isn't Tampa Bay in Florida, and don't they need a SS, and don't they have the best young talent in baseball, and don't they have zero payroll?
2007-10-29 14:28:20
203.   trainwreck
201
And California is the center of the Hockey universe.
2007-10-29 14:29:29
204.   blue22
200 - But Tampa isn't "Florida" Florida. Only Miami is "Florida" Florida.
2007-10-29 14:30:32
205.   JoeyP
He made two great deals in 1996, signing Shaq and trading for Kobe

Well, those deals really cemented his reputation as a good talent evaluator. He moved cap space to get Shaq, and then to get Kobe in the draft by trading Vlade.

I also think you are short changing West on his other moves---picking up Robert Horry, Rick Fox, drafted Derek Fisher pretty low, drafted Nick Van Exel in the 2nd round, got real good value in Eddie Jones.

West, even after the showtime era left, was still able to keep the Lakers from completely tanking, even with the likes of Elden Campbell, Cedric Ceballos, Sedale Threatt, etc. Then he rebuilt it back again with the Kobe/Shaq teams.

I dont think West ever did anything that really hurt the Lakers. But Kupchak has. The Brian Grant contract, Butler for Kwame, trading Shaq, etc...

Kuphak has the best player in the game, in his prime, and has done nothing with him. Thats a failure. No question about it.

2007-10-29 14:31:35
206.   CajunDodger
195
It is currently against baseball rules to allow a player to acquire an ownership stake in a team before he is retired or to include one in any contract.

196
Talk about an offseason splash. Wouldn't it be funny if Loria had been saving all of those revenue sharing dollars and spent them all in two offseasons. He could get ARod, Schilling, Texeria, and still have enough for some mercenary veteran arms. That would serve Selig right for not dictating the way Revenue sharing dollars are spent.

2007-10-29 14:33:18
207.   trainwreck
Remember when he traded Van Exel for Tony Battie?

I remember at the time that made me so mad. I also sent a letter to Eddie Jones when he was traded.

2007-10-29 14:33:45
208.   CajunDodger
202
Who is the owner there? Is he as slimy as Loria? Imagine a lineup with all those young stars with just one more decent pitcher added along with ARod. That would be something
2007-10-29 14:34:42
209.   D4P
It is currently against baseball rules to allow a player to acquire an ownership stake in a team before he is retired or to include one in any contract

Boras: "What is this 'baseball rules' of which you speak?"

2007-10-29 14:35:18
210.   dzzrtRatt
Yeah, that's the ticket. The quickest way for A-Rod to become a Dodger is first to get him signed to the D-Rays (I guess just "Rays" now). Then Colletti will trade LaRoche, Kershaw and Kemp for A-Rod and Crawford.
2007-10-29 14:35:56
211.   trainwreck
Yeah, the D-Rays do not really lack quality infielders.
2007-10-29 14:37:16
212.   JoeyP
Eddie Jones for Glen Rice did suck. But I think that was more due to the Lakers not wanting to pay Eddie Jones a max-level contract at free agency.

Rice was a shaq-centric role player too, albeit on the downside of his career.

2007-10-29 14:38:03
213.   trainwreck
I think Rice's wife was more famous than him, during his stay in LA.
2007-10-29 14:38:10
214.   blue22
211 - They really just have Longoria right now in the infield. Upton is a future CFer, and Brignac slipped a few notches this year. They do have whatever they get in return for the surplus OFers that they elect to trade.
2007-10-29 14:39:13
215.   Bob Timmermann
209
Players not having a stake in the ownership of a team is a rule that would be pretty hard to skate around.

I don't know if a player could even be part of MLBPA and have an equity stake in a team without breaking Federal labor laws.

2007-10-29 14:39:25
216.   bhsportsguy
205 No, I took those in consideration and he added pieces to make them ready so when Jackson took over, they had the parts to win.
2007-10-29 14:39:52
217.   trainwreck
Upton's that bad at second?

They also have Pena, Iwamura, and Guzman if he ever does something.

2007-10-29 14:41:49
218.   D4P
I don't know if a player could even be part of MLBPA and have an equity stake in a team without breaking Federal labor laws

Boras: "What are these 'MLBPA' and 'Federal labor laws' of which you speak?"

2007-10-29 14:41:49
219.   Humma Kavula
and Guzman if he ever does something

I root for Joel the Destroyer. How many options does he have left? Probably quite a few still, eh?

2007-10-29 14:43:01
220.   blue22
217 - He's apparently so bad at 2nd that they want to move him to the OF, despite having 4-5 quality ML bats already playing out there.
2007-10-29 14:43:20
221.   Bob Timmermann
218
I find the power and evil qualities that people ascribe to Scott Boras to be very funny.
2007-10-29 14:44:37
222.   bhsportsguy
219 He has one left.
2007-10-29 14:44:46
223.   ToyCannon
This is just subjective but I don't remember anyone disapearing in the 4th qtr like Eddie Jones used to do during close games. At least Rice wanted the ball and wasn't afraid to shoot the ball at crunch time.
2007-10-29 14:46:39
224.   Humma Kavula
222 Someday, somebody is going to give him an NRI, and he's going to hit 35 home runs, and everyone is going to wonder where HE came from.
2007-10-29 14:46:45
225.   bhsportsguy
223 I remember when that deal went down, I called my friend who was a huge Eddie Jones fan and she was really upset.

Unfortunately, Eddie never really got better after his first year but he was the guy until Kobe got there.

2007-10-29 14:47:04
226.   ToyCannon
217
Upton played CF for almost the whole 2nd half of the season. He will probably never play another game in the infield the rest of his career.
2007-10-29 14:47:43
227.   D4P
221
Funny like I'm a clown? I amuse you?
2007-10-29 14:48:06
228.   ToyCannon
224
Except he'll do it while batting 225 with a 250 OB% and nobody will be impressed except the chicks who dig the long ball.
2007-10-29 14:48:15
229.   bhsportsguy
224 That will be something considering that I think he will be available for the asking as next year goes on. A team is going to have to put up with a lot of swings and misses for him to hit 15 home runs let alone 35.
2007-10-29 14:49:13
230.   kinbote
welcome to hot stove monday!

among the things i'm trying to process:

1. are we really negotiating a buy-out with grady little? if so, is it torre or bust?

2. are we going to make an offer for a-rod? if so, what parameters are we talking?

3. statistically, would a-rod & pierre equal two productive players?

2007-10-29 14:50:42
231.   bhsportsguy
227 Get out of here! [I cannot use the actual language] I had a friend who was kind of crazy if not unpredictable but he did not carry fire arms.
2007-10-29 14:51:28
232.   bhsportsguy
228 Sometimes we are on the same wavelength.
2007-10-29 14:51:35
233.   trainwreck
230
1. A rumor from Olney and a New York paper.

2. None of us know.

3. Yes.

2007-10-29 14:53:19
234.   ToyCannon
225
Yes, those were lean years. Van Exel was fun to watch. And the water sking guy. And then the Magic comeback was exciting. Not much else. Funny I remained a huge fan then, now we have the best player in basketball and I couldn't care less.
2007-10-29 14:54:21
235.   ToyCannon
232
Scary

Ready to watch some basketball?

2007-10-29 14:54:36
236.   trainwreck
I still have my Cedric Ceballos jersey.
2007-10-29 14:56:13
237.   bhsportsguy
After reading Bill Simmons' column, I wonder if I sounded the same during the Lakers' last run, its pretty hard to be on top and still look humble and nice, most folks could care less if you did things the right way or if you in shape to make a long run. It just sounds like bragging which no one is interested in reading.
2007-10-29 14:56:26
238.   blue22
230 - Torre seems logical. Other possible managerial candidates going into this offseason have already been spoken for (Girardi, LaRussa, Dusty).

If Little is indeed on the way out like this, you wouldn't replace him with Kevin Kennedy. No one else I can think of offhand would be worthy of such an out of the blue move like firing Little would be.

Not unless Bobby V is coming back!

2007-10-29 14:57:08
239.   paranoidandroid
221 Relax, we're just having some fun here. Now if we wanted to insult you, we'd tell you to go home and get your shine box.
2007-10-29 14:57:13
240.   ToyCannon
I think he put the ball up in traffic faster then anyone since Adrian Dantley that I watched. Or maybe that is but another false memory.
2007-10-29 14:57:41
241.   trainwreck
The only other jersey I own is an Edwin Jackson Dodger jersey.

I think I am going to stay away from buying jerseys.

2007-10-29 14:57:56
242.   bhsportsguy
235 Just to be clear:
1. A-Rod, yes?
2. Torre or Grady, doesn't matter?
3. Trade Kobe, wife will now go to Laker games?
4. Josh Bell, needs to spend the whole year at Inland Empire?
2007-10-29 14:58:15
243.   paranoidandroid
236 I found a Ceballos jersey while waterskiing a few years ago...
2007-10-29 14:58:54
244.   ToyCannon
Maybe Bobby V can bring along the cream of the crop from Japan. Sammy needs someone to talk to.
2007-10-29 15:00:17
245.   blue22
I'm reviewing new NBA teams to follow in the event of a Kobe trade. I'm not really excited about hitching myself to the Buss/Kupchak show with no Kobe around. I've also just moved to Seattle, and we're having our own problems just hanging on to the franchise.

I'm thinking Toronto would be a good one. Good young team, about to go all Phoenix-like on the league. I like Portland too, but that Oden injury may have delayed them for a year.

2007-10-29 15:01:04
246.   bhsportsguy
239 If wasn't for the great acting in The Godfather, Good Fellas would probably be my favorite film of that genre, as it is, it's a shame it did not win Best Picture. Not saying that DeNiro, Pesci and the rest were not great but Brando, Caan, Pacino, Cazale and Duvall were on a roll in that film.
2007-10-29 15:03:03
247.   Bob Timmermann
244
You mean you want Benny Agbayani playing center field for the Dodgers next year?
2007-10-29 15:03:58
248.   regfairfield
I think this is judgement year for JtD. He's had the "young for his league" reason to excuse his performance up to this point, but he's now 23 in AAA. If he doesn't turn it on this year, I doubt he'll ever be worth much.
2007-10-29 15:04:18
249.   D4P
My interest in the NBA and NFL have reached all-time nadirs. I don't expect to ever become interested again, but you never know.
2007-10-29 15:05:52
250.   paranoidandroid
246 I love them both. Goodfellas gave me a few more laughs and a few more classic funny lines that work their way into things.

Can't beat the Godfather films for quality though. I and II were some of the best cinematic moments you can ever imagine.

I also can't believe that Goodfellas was passed over at the Oscars. It happens. Saving Private Ryan was passed over too. But they hate Speilberg. Scorcese finally got one, but Gooofellas was superior to the Matt Damon film.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-10-29 15:06:25
251.   blue22
249 - Didn't you live in Portland before? That team could be very interesting to follow, assuming Oden makes it back ok.
2007-10-29 15:06:45
252.   Bob Timmermann
249
But once you've reached the nadir, you can't go any further. By definition, it's as low as you can go.
2007-10-29 15:07:20
253.   ToyCannon
242
1. Emphatic Yes
2. I'm on board for removing Grady for the reasons stated above by Dzzrat and some more of my own. I like the man, not the manager. Joe Torre at 67 would NOT be someone I'd want to replace him with. Given a choice I'd rather keep Grady.
3. Emphatic Yes
4. Emphatic Yes
2007-10-29 15:07:40
254.   paranoidandroid
245 Clippers, Clippers, Clippers, Clippers!

Fun team to watch, low expectations, can't do anything but provide excitement when you least expect it. And who can't love a franchise that employed Keith Closs and Stokja Vrankavich.

2007-10-29 15:09:11
255.   Doug N
"Money talks, but were McCourt and Moreno listening?"

Anybody read the plaschke article today? I hope Frank doesn't read that column....

And I am comfortable saying that I hate the Red Sox.

2007-10-29 15:09:31
256.   paranoidandroid
On Torre and Little:

I like Grady. He deserves a chance to be the guy to turn it around. However, I'd throw him (and my mother) under the bus if hiring Torre meant we'd get A-Rod.

2007-10-29 15:09:50
257.   kinbote
i don't know where he'll end up, but i predict a-rod will sign somewhere for 8y/$280m.
2007-10-29 15:09:52
258.   D4P
Didn't you live in Portland before?

No, I lived in Eugene. But I was never a Blazers fan. Always rooted for the Lakers.

But once you've reached the nadir, you can't go any further. By definition, it's as low as you can go

But it's not inevitable that one will exceed the nadir, once reached.

2007-10-29 15:10:47
259.   bhsportsguy
253 See, its not that hard to figure out ToyCannon.

Though the wife thing I would not know except he told me that when I attended a Laker game with him.

2007-10-29 15:11:27
260.   blue22
254 - Brand and Livingston have career threatening injuries - not a great time to be a Clipper fan.

I'm looking for the perfect situation to jump into. As long as I'm completely selling my out my sports soul, I may as well pick an ideal bandwagon to hop onto.

2007-10-29 15:12:03
261.   ToyCannon
249
Yes, my interest in the NBA is as low as it has ever been. So instead of being nuts about the NBA I'm now going to watch only 50 games this year and enjoy Pac10 basketball a little more.

I lost interest in the NFL years ago and I only use it now as a betting vehicle to remain in touch with friends who have moved.

2007-10-29 15:14:45
262.   trainwreck
260
There's no more ideal place than San Antonio.
2007-10-29 15:16:26
263.   ToyCannon
260
Then why not pick the Kobe Bulls?
2007-10-29 15:16:54
264.   thinkblue0
For this year, we can have Penny, Bills, Lowe, Schmidt and pick your 5th and either trade a couple pieces including Pierre

is there even a single team that would take Pierre's contract? I highly doubt it.

2007-10-29 15:18:27
265.   ToyCannon
254
Do you have Clipper tickets? If not I'd like to take you to a game. I expect us to lose a lot of games this year but be fun to watch.
2007-10-29 15:20:44
266.   blue22
263 - If Kupchak is able to get some interesting players in return for Kobe, I could stick with my upbringing and remain loyal to the Lakers. I could shift to Kobe in Chicago, where my wife's family hails and are all huge Bull fans. Or I could start fresh with those wacky Raptors from Canada. I guess it's all in Kupchak's hands from here.
2007-10-29 15:21:12
267.   ToyCannon
260
Brand did not have a career threatening injury . He'll be playing by January and not miss a beat. Livy on the hand is probably toast. At least toast as to what we'd hoped for.
2007-10-29 15:22:24
268.   blue22
264 - Pierre earns just over $9M per for the next 4 years. If LA pays half that, I bet you'd get some interest. It's not like Juan had a bad year, per his standards. He had a Juan Pierre year, and I bet many baseball executives still think that leads to winning baseball games.
2007-10-29 15:22:42
269.   fanerman
I can't not like the Lakers. Kobe or not. Kupchak or not. Buss or not. I've always found the Clippers boring to watch ("always" as in from the early-mid 90's through a year or two ago).
2007-10-29 15:23:00
270.   Marty
Goodfellas is great, but it's not even the best gangster film of that year. Give me Miller's Crossing anytime.
2007-10-29 15:23:51
271.   blue22
267 - I had heard that since it was an achilles, and so much of his game comes from his explosive leaping ability, that he might not be the same.

I wish him the best though. I love that guy.

2007-10-29 15:24:48
272.   LogikReader
TC and D4P being noncommital with the NFL? I suppose not having the local team might have something to do with it.

I'm fairly young so I started following the league well after the Raiders and Rams left.

2007-10-29 15:25:44
273.   ToyCannon
269
We were very boring and lousy last year, but the year before we were anything but boring. We were one stupid play from playing for the Western Championship.
2007-10-29 15:27:51
274.   trainwreck
The Clippers will be more exciting next year with Derrick Rose or Darren Collison on the team.

I still think Maggette and Thornton can be a fun duo to watch.

2007-10-29 15:28:32
275.   LogikReader
Hey I've got tix to see the Clippers! I got a mini pack... this is going to be fun... even as a Laker fan.
2007-10-29 15:31:34
276.   trainwreck
I am trying to figure out who the next Lakers coach is going to be and I am getting paranoid about Ben Howland.
2007-10-29 15:32:26
277.   fanerman
273 Yeah, I was really rooting for the Clippers in that round. I suppose in recent years they've become more exciting. But I was very turned off from them during the Loy Vaught years through the Lamond Murray years. The Lakers were fun to watch with Ceballos and Nick and Eddie Jones and company.
2007-10-29 15:32:45
278.   ryu
274 Pacific Division teams do like UCLA point guards. Jordan Farmar, Earl Watson, and Baron Davis.
2007-10-29 15:34:02
279.   fanerman
276 It seems like Phil Jackson may keep coaching, even if Kobe leaves. Kurt Rambis and Brian Shaw have been named as possible successors.
2007-10-29 15:34:41
280.   bhsportsguy
276 No way, its kind of like Pete Carroll but even more so, Howland wants total control, he coaches a brand of basketball that is not very appealing in the NBA sense and he wants to win multiple titles at UCLA, being known as the second best coach ever at UCLA is not a bad place to be.
2007-10-29 15:35:53
281.   trainwreck
278
And we got Russell Westbrook, Jrue Holiday, Malcom Lee, and Jermine Anderson waiting to add to that.
2007-10-29 15:35:58
282.   ToyCannon
274
Thornton will be interesting. He's been the best rookie in preseason but Hollinger has said he's going to be a bust. I don't see it and I hope Hollinger is wrong.
2007-10-29 15:37:24
283.   trainwreck
280
Greg Hicks said that Howland may leave if an NBA team came offering him big bucks. I still think he will stay at UCLA, but I could see the Lakers eying the local guy having tons of success.
2007-10-29 15:37:34
284.   blue22
279 - Phil Jackson has an unsigned extension on his desk right now. I find it hard to believe he would sign on for a Kobe-less stint of rebuilding at his age. Why wouldn't he just take Kupchak's role as GM as soon as he ready to? And he just needs to "pop the question" to become part of the Laker family/ownership.
2007-10-29 15:38:31
285.   thinkblue0
268-

Sure, someone might take him if we pay half, but no one is going to take the whole contract even if it's for a bag of balls.

That's the problem with our GM, and most GM's. They don't use common sense. For example, common sense dictates that Laroche should get the 3B job and just treat Nomar as a sunk cost for one year. But, knowing how this team operates, we'll probably stick with Nomar and deal Laroche for Brett Tomko. The lack of common sense with MOST teams is just astounding to me....

2007-10-29 15:40:43
286.   trainwreck
282
Hollinger's draft analysis is really interesting. Like how steals seems to correlate a lot to NBA success, even though it means nothing in the NBA.

I just like Thornton's strength at the small forward position. I think he is going to be a post up and bang type of small forward.

2007-10-29 15:42:04
287.   fanerman
Phil Jackson said he'd consider another couple years. http://tinyurl.com/336ltb

Take that for what it's worse.

I really don't expect the Lakers to go after Howland. I suppose it partly depends on how the Kobe fiasco plays out.

And Phil does not seem like he wants to be GM. I've never heard any indication that he has any ambition of being in the front office.

2007-10-29 15:43:24
288.   fanerman
287 worse = worth.
2007-10-29 15:43:32
289.   thinkblue0
287-

Jumping in on the basketball front, does anyone else wonder constantly why we picked up Kwame's option? Wouldn't that cap room have been really valuable to be able to compensate for, say, a Kevin Garnett? At least in baseball we don't have a cap, so a sunk cost is a sunk cost...but jeez, paying a guy like Kwame 9 mill a year is going to ravage your payroll and ability to field a competitive team.

2007-10-29 15:46:35
290.   blue22
287 - Phil sure likes to offer a lot of input on roster construction. He may not like the overall job, but he's always been a pseudo-GM in regards to who is on the team.

The Buss kids are likely threatened by his presence; they often come out on opposing sides of issues. They probably feel like Dr. Buss will turn over the franchise to Phil whenever he makes a legitimate woman out of Jeannie (or however that old saying goes).

2007-10-29 15:47:44
291.   trainwreck
289
Lakers had a bad plan to go after Yao or Stoudemire, but they re-signed with their teams before hitting free agency. Same with the Melo, James, Wade, and Bosh draft class.

So the Lakers figured they might as well pick up the option instead of losing Kwame for nothing. At least he gives them a defensive presence in the post and possible trade bait.

2007-10-29 15:48:14
292.   blue22
289 - I thought that myself, but Kwame's best playing time in a Laker uniform came in the couple of months just after he signed that extension. I thought for a second that a horrible mistake might turn into a really good idea. But, no, Kwame stinks.
2007-10-29 15:49:16
293.   gibsonhobbs88
261, 272 - As far as the NBA - I totally agree with you. I have been a lifelong Laker fan since about 1969. However, with the botching of the team by the "three headed beast of Buss, Buss and Kupchak and the NBA suits of Stern and Stupid Jackson's short sighted idiotic punishments of last year's Suns - Spurs playoffs, I am so turned off the NBA. I watched maybe 2 minutes of 1 preseason game this year and it didn't hold my interest one ioda! The referee betting scandal didn't help a league already fighting credibility issues. I still like NFL football and love to watch great QB's play, looking forward to the "de-facto" Super Bowl this Sunday between the Colts v. Pats. Do you think CBS will be stupid enough to give the LA market the alternate game of Texans v. Raiders Sunday afternoon? If so, I may have to visit a sports bar that has a Sunday ticket package.
2007-10-29 15:50:35
294.   CajunDodger
288
Freudian slip? ;-)
2007-10-29 15:50:53
295.   fanerman
290 Yes that's true but saying "I want this player" and actually signing/trading for said player are two different things. Phil does not seem like the kind of guy to want to deal with salary caps and contracts. With the offense he runs, it makes sense to be particular about players.

I know very little about who gets the franchise from Dr. Buss, but I thought Jim Buss was supposed to be groomed to be the successor.

2007-10-29 15:51:30
296.   thinkblue0
291-

That's my point though. I would WANT to lose Kwame for nothing. You can't dump salaries in the NBA because of the cap, so having cap room is something EVERY team needs. The guy is an okay player at best, I'd much rather NOT be paying him 9 mill and have that spot open for a potential trade. This is the problem with all NBA GM's and why they are constantly looking for cap room. Just let the player walk and keep that room...I'd much rather have 9 mill of wiggle room to pick up a GOOD player than have an average-at-best Kwame Brown.

2007-10-29 15:52:08
297.   fanerman
294 Probably. Sometimes my brain says one word and my fingers type another.
2007-10-29 15:54:04
298.   Bluebleeder87
I think the Dodgers are sort of like part of the family. Sure there are times when I get so angry at the stupidity of their actions, and times when I get detached, but I've never really stopped loving them. At least yet.

That's pretty much how I feel (in this point in my life) about them too.

2007-10-29 15:57:06
299.   trainwreck
296
But the Lakers had no guarantee that Mihm would re-sign and they would have ended up with just Bynum at the center position. The depth of quality bigs in the NBA is so bad that Kwame is a useful player to have and Anderson Varejao can ask for $10 million a year with a straight face.
2007-10-29 15:57:12
300.   gibsonhobbs88
I guess I'll get by basketball jones by watching NCAA this year. UCLA looking good if they stay healthy. A possible Final 4 run again with no Noah and Horford in their way. That was the one team they just didn't match up with that kept them from winning a title. Otherwise Ben has been terrific as coach and would like to see him stay in the college ranks at UCLA where he can actually teach and coach the players. NBA players don't really listen to their coach anymore, do they? :)
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-10-29 15:57:31
301.   blue22
295 - Yeah, Phil is similar to Larry Brown in that regard. Very particular about who he wants on the floor, but a total trainwreck as official GM. I bet Phil would really like to own the Lakers though.
2007-10-29 15:59:29
302.   gibsonhobbs88
300 - by=my
Go Bruins!! Looking forward to the Kevin Love year at Westwood!!
2007-10-29 15:59:53
303.   trainwreck
300
Howland already has to get players with a particular mindset to play for him at UCLA, so it would be pretty much the same case in the NBA.
2007-10-29 16:02:09
304.   LogikReader
293

That's a confirmed "no". I received an email from KCBS 2 saying specifically that LA will get carriage of Pats/Colts. Good news for us all.

Very surprisingly, the SB Market's KCOY will carry the same game!

2007-10-29 16:05:13
305.   trainwreck
Raiders probably won't sell out their game against the Texans anyways. So it would be blacked-out.
2007-10-29 16:07:41
306.   Bob Timmermann
Notre Dame is favored to beat Navy by 3 1/2.

I guess giving up 59 points to a school from Delaware doesn't impress Las Vegas.

2007-10-29 16:09:01
307.   gibsonhobbs88
299 - Not to mention that after Chick passed to the great broacasting booth in the sky, we are now left with Joel Meyer, who essentially stabbed the friendly Paul Sunderland in the back. Joel, who looks like an evil twin of Leonard Nimoy, as opposed to Sunderland who while not as technically efficient as Meyer is to me, a whole much more likeable. I frankly like that "Spiro" on the radio much more than Joel Meyer. Just another reason to prune the Lakers and the NBA off my sports tree for the time being.
2007-10-29 16:11:11
308.   LogikReader
Normally, non-sellouts don't block Los Angeles carriage of Raider games. That said, it looks like HOU/OAK will only be on in one city.
2007-10-29 16:14:20
309.   RIYank
Hey, this posting is front page at Baseball Musings (cited with approval, needless to say). Weisman, you rule.
2007-10-29 16:15:48
310.   gibsonhobbs88
304 - Thank you. That's great news. I can watch that game in my skivvies in the comfort of my own abode. ;-)

303 - I was just making an off hand sarcastic remark of the current mindset of a majority of NBA players that could be partially true. Remember, college coaches have the power over players, can limit their playing time if players don't fall in line, ect.. Pros have agents and contracts and their own agendas and a coach can be at the mercy of the GM's and owners wishes as to who to play and how much!!

2007-10-29 16:16:32
311.   Dodgers49
85 By opting out is the Rangers $21M obligtion terminated even if ARod re-signs with the Yankees next month.

Yes. But according to Boras the Rangers are still on the hook for $3 million per year in deferred salary no matter which team A-Rod signs with.

2007-10-29 16:21:21
312.   trainwreck
310
Sadly, these issues affect the college game too.
2007-10-29 16:21:26
313.   thinkblue0
307-

Man, weren't we spoiled with Chick and Vin? It's really unreal when you think about it...the biggest problem is that now almost every announcing team is ruined for us.

2007-10-29 16:23:54
314.   silverwidow
Why couldn't we have traded Furcal to Detroit for those two prospects? Save $$$ while giving Hu a real chance to start.
2007-10-29 16:23:56
315.   BiggO
311-
why are the Rangers still liable when that contract is over once he opts out.
2007-10-29 16:25:15
316.   thinkblue0
314-

We don't really need to save money on Furcal. He's a solid player and, so far, has been worth his contract.

If we want to save money, you find any team that'll take Nomar and/or Pierre.

2007-10-29 16:25:57
317.   wireroom
Jesus, how did the Rangers end up letting themselves get such an awful deal with A-Rod? It astounds me up that he is terminating his current contract but someone is still going to pay him for it. I wonder what "perks" are going to be negotiated for himthis time?
2007-10-29 16:27:00
318.   trainwreck
317
I wonder if trips on a private jet to Miami would entice him.
2007-10-29 16:27:28
319.   bhsportsguy
314 Furcal has a bigger contract ($13M vs. $9M) and they have an option for next year at another $9M or a $3M buyout. So Detroit could have 2 years for 1.5 times Furcal's deal or have him for one year and even with the buy out, he is still cheaper.

Plus, Renteria is not coming off an injury.

2007-10-29 16:27:41
320.   blue22
315 - Deferred money is still owed. It's back-earned money owed to him regardless of the future outcome of the contract.

317 - They still have, um, Brad Wilkerson to show for it!

2007-10-29 16:28:52
321.   bhsportsguy
319 Not that even asked the Dodgers but I am giving you the money part of why Detroit would not make the deal for Furcal.
2007-10-29 16:29:37
322.   Bluebleeder87
I'm kind of P.O'd Jon opened up my mind to the OTHER SIDE of the A-Rod signing, I'm a little confused right now. But I seriously doubt NedCo will make a serious push for him [A-Rod] anyways.
2007-10-29 16:31:08
323.   blue22
Renteria also hit .332 last year (with a .297 eqa).
2007-10-29 16:33:54
324.   MikeB
313. You're talking about the golden age in LA sports.

Vin Scully - Dodgers
Dick Enberg - Angels, Rams, UCLA basketball
Bob Miller - Kings
Chick Hearn - Lakers
Bill King - Raiders

Jim Murray, Allan Malamud, Scott Ostler at the LA Times.

and Jim Healy on the radio too!

2007-10-29 16:36:51
325.   Bluebleeder87
I wonder if trips on a private jet to Miami would entice him.

He should just by Miami or the Marlins & be the playing manager for them.

2007-10-29 16:37:48
326.   Bob Timmermann
324
Enberg with the Angels and King with the LA Raiders did not happen at the same time.

Bob Starr was doing a lot of the work for the Angels at the time.

And Enberg stopped doing the Rams when he went to NBC.

I miss Al Wisk!

2007-10-29 16:42:51
327.   CajunDodger
326
And don't forget Steiner and Monday!!!!!!

:-O

2007-10-29 16:43:32
328.   blue22
327 - I'm looking forward to the day I can miss Steiner and Monday.
2007-10-29 16:43:49
329.   Dodgers49
Dodgers Mailbag: More prospects on the way?

1). Where will the Dodgers draft in June and will they lose their first-round pick if they sign a Type-A free agent?
2). The Dodgers' Drafts in 2002 and 2003 were great. How are the players from 2004 and 2005 shaping up?
3). Who would fit better in the Dodgers lineup, Miguel Cabrera or Alex Rodriguez?
4).Now that the Dodgers have signed up with KABC again, is there any thought to bringing back Ross Porter to at least do DodgerTalk?

http://tinyurl.com/2ow429

2007-10-29 16:43:59
330.   ToyCannon
307
My waning interest in the Lakers can be tied to Chick dying. I can't stand Joel Meyer.

I wonder how many will lose interest in the Dodgers when Vinny goes?

2007-10-29 16:44:35
331.   wireroom
317 maybe he should just buy the major leagues and rename it A-Rods league.
2007-10-29 16:45:02
332.   MikeB
326. "Who goofed? I've got to know."
My point being that LA has had a lot of great sports announcers and commentators, and, quite a few of them were on the air or in print through the 70's, and 80's. Perhaps the years don't quite match up, but there is little doubt #313 was right when he stated LA has been spoiled.
2007-10-29 16:46:28
333.   wireroom
330 I fear that day more than anything else having to do with baseball or the Dodgers. I hope he lives a long long long time.
2007-10-29 16:46:44
334.   blue22
331 - First order of business: move Jeter to third.
2007-10-29 16:48:24
335.   wireroom
In fact, I wouldn't mind a one time human cloning of Vin Scully but no one else.
2007-10-29 16:49:03
336.   bhsportsguy
329 Without looking at Ken Gurnick's response, my answers:
1. The Dodgers will draft 15th and they will not lose a first round pick if they sign a Type A Free Agent.
2. ToyCannon would be better but, Scott Elbert and Justin Orenduff are two from 2004 that stand out immediately, Blake Dewitt is also someone to watch. 2005, not signing Luke Hochevar was a blow but they have Jonathan Meloan who is already on the 40-man roster and Josh Bell, one their big power bat hopefuls from that draft. Also watch for Steven Johnson who is doing well in Hawaii.
3. Either but Miggy though some will say he has conditioning issues, is younger (by a lot) but already is an incredible hitter in the NL but A-Rod is A-Rod.
4. Don't think so but then I am not the station manager at KABC.
2007-10-29 16:52:35
337.   ryu
330 Not sure. But I'm sad that I might not ever get to hear Vin call the Dodgers winning the World Series.
2007-10-29 16:53:33
338.   Bluebleeder87
329

Thanks Dodgers49, the fact that we have the 15th overall pick in the 1st round is good news no? or am I interpreting Gurnik wrong? I wonder if it will be a good draft year (Nate Percell!!)

2007-10-29 16:55:00
339.   wronghanded
336 The Dodgers will lose a 2nd round draft pick if they sign a type-A free-agent, thanks to our 16th best record in MLB. So our attrocious August/September was at least good for something.
2007-10-29 16:55:01
340.   ToyCannon
La Roche and D Young continue to tear it up for Team USA. The team lost 8-6 but our boys combined for 5 hits. D Young is now 7 for 9 and LaRoche is 4 for 8 after 3 games.
http://tinyurl.com/2e9n9g
2007-10-29 16:55:09
341.   Jon Weisman
What do Texas Rangers GM Jon Daniels and Dunder-Mifflin salesman Andy Bernard have in common?
2007-10-29 16:55:41
342.   wronghanded
oops, I read your post wrong...nevermind I'm an idiot.
2007-10-29 16:56:32
343.   ToyCannon
336
I'd just add that I like DeJesus from the 2005 draft.
2007-10-29 16:56:38
344.   El Lay Dave
336 Pretty darn close. I found this part of Gurnick's response odd:

Considering the Dodgers' wretched history with high-priced free agents, I wouldn't pay Rodriguez the hundreds of millions of dollars he'll demand.

What does the Dodgers' history have to do with projecting ARod's future performance or value?

2007-10-29 16:57:41
345.   wronghanded
344 Are we jinxed???
2007-10-29 16:58:05
346.   Bob Timmermann
341
Cornell alums?
2007-10-29 16:58:41
347.   ToyCannon
As is my Sister-in-Law.
2007-10-29 16:59:57
348.   ToyCannon
344
Did Gurnick say anything that 90% of the posters here couldn't have said? Yet he gets paid to do this stuff.
2007-10-29 17:00:09
349.   wireroom
Evenutally I think Ross will be back in the fold once management realizes how dumb it was to let him go.
2007-10-29 17:03:00
350.   jasonungar07
so it IS fear. At least for Gurnick.

I am trying Jon to figure it out, so give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that......gosh.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-10-29 17:03:21
351.   Benjamin Miracord
Joe Torre is scheduled to appear on the Letterman show tonight — not that there'll be any earth-shaking revelations.
2007-10-29 17:04:35
352.   bhsportsguy
336 And if Gurnick was a reader of DT, he would know that we went over the draft pick protection in great detail during the last game of the season.
Sorry I forgot about DeJesus.
2007-10-29 17:05:41
353.   trainwreck
Normally I am a fan of Peter Gammons, but his insider article about A-Rod opting out struck a nerve with me.

Mostly the part where he gives a story about Dustin Pedroia giving up his scholarship in college so ASU could bring in a pitcher and he has this line...

"The sabermetrics guys in their garages never understand these things."

a) The Red Sox aren't a sabremetric organization than no one is.
b) The Red Sox drafted Pedroia because he could hit and get on base, not the other stuff or else they wouldn't have players like Manny Ramirez and Julio Lugo on their team.
c) A guy who has dedicated his whole life to covering baseball should hardly be making fun of sabremetrics people for being dorky.

2007-10-29 17:05:50
354.   Dodgers49
320 315 - Deferred money is still owed. It's back-earned money owed to him regardless of the future outcome of the contract.

Right. Here is the link to Boras' statement. It's $3 million for the next 3 years:

>> Now that A-Rod has made his decision, Texas turns out to be the biggest winner -- saving the remaining money it would have had to pay New York as part of the trade. Boras said the Rangers are still responsible for $3 million in annual deferred money A-Rod is owed in the next three years under the contract. <<

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10437660

2007-10-29 17:06:08
355.   El Lay Dave
341 Somebody key Daniel's Prius?
2007-10-29 17:06:52
356.   trainwreck
*a) If the Red Sox aren't a sabremetric organization than no one is.
2007-10-29 17:07:01
357.   bhsportsguy
341 Wasn't late original host of the Sports Reporters, Dick Schaap an alumnus of Cornell also?
2007-10-29 17:08:45
358.   Jon Weisman
352 - He'd have to be a reader of the DT comments, which is asking a lot of any outsider.

346 - Yep :)

2007-10-29 17:10:40
359.   D4P
I could look it up, but aren't Bill Maher, Keith Olbermann, and Anne Coulter all Cornell alumni as well?
2007-10-29 17:10:42
360.   Jon Weisman
353 - It seems to me also that the saber guys should at least get credit for working in the main part of the home. I mean, "garages?"
2007-10-29 17:13:23
361.   D4P
361
Shouldn't it at least have been "(mothers') basements"...?
2007-10-29 17:13:34
362.   bryanf
Okay, there are enough rumors going around and now that the WS is over, it's time for me to get me back into Dodgers baseball after a brief hiatus.

I'm unsure about Torre. I like him, but I don't know if he's the answer. Little has his problems (and they've been well documented in this space for sure) but how much better is Torre really? I don't buy the "he would sit Pierre" argument, because I think he was Steinbrenner's and Cashman's pawn just as much as Grady is for Frank and Ned.

Plus, can't we just give our own guys a chance for once? Are we going to follow Verizon's cell phone plan - "new every two" - and get a new manager (or maybe GM) every couple of years when we don't win? Why shake things up right now? I say we focus on getting the right players before we start rustling feathers with our manager.

2007-10-29 17:14:07
363.   El Lay Dave
360 Is "garage" a promotion from "basement", the usual stereotype location?
2007-10-29 17:18:11
364.   El Lay Dave
361 44 seconds and you worked in (mothers') too, but at least I referenced the right post!
2007-10-29 17:20:35
365.   trainwreck
You know those Ivy League taught sabremetricians probably can't afford nice homes anyways.

And if they could, it would be a cold house with no love in it.

2007-10-29 17:26:11
366.   wireroom
362 I am with you on that. I think Grady has done a good job and was faced with a lot of injuries and old guys who could not play everyday. People complain that he did not stop the clubhouse rift, but I think both Kent and Gonzo have long been documented as shoot from the hip type guys. I doubt any manager could get those 2 guys to shut up. Good luck to both of those guys when they realize almost no big league club is going to give them an everyday position with their lacking ability and bad attitude towards the ultimate goal of winning. At least Nomar realizes that he isn't what he used to be and kept his mouth shut.
2007-10-29 17:30:20
367.   Bluebleeder87
You guys don't think Maggs Ordonez looks like a garbage pail kid? seriously, if there were a baseball Garbage Pail Kid, it would look just like him, no changes at all.
2007-10-29 17:37:55
368.   wireroom
367 haha, that makes total sense. same facial structure and all. "magglio mudhen" with a worm through his bat.
2007-10-29 17:39:59
369.   Bluebleeder87
I use to collect garbage pail kids stickers when I was a kid, I had over 200 of them.
2007-10-29 17:54:23
370.   wronghanded
I'm going with "Oddball" Ordonez but yes Maggs has the typical extra-chromosome look of the GPK's.
2007-10-29 17:58:34
371.   dzzrtRatt
300 Underrated film in the gangster genre: "Casino." They play it on cable TV a lot, and, scene-for-scene, it's pretty great, close to "GoodFellas" in quality.

I remember at the time the film was supposed to be called "Wise Guy" like the book, but then a TV series by the same name appeared, so Scorcese switched to this title.

2007-10-29 18:02:17
372.   Bluebleeder87
I haven't visited ESPN.Com all that much but they have a pretty nice read today [ http://tinyurl.com/2wh9kp ]
2007-10-29 18:08:12
373.   Marty
Wise Guys was the name of the book that Goodfellas came from, not Casino.

I always thought Casino was vastly inferior to Goodfellas. But that could be my Sharon Stone disdain showing.

2007-10-29 18:15:07
374.   El Lay Dave
373 There's a leg-crossing joke there somewhere, but it is probably best left unwritten.
2007-10-29 18:16:56
375.   D4P
374
Heh. And I was thinking about how "Sharon Stone" and "showing" are perpetually linked.
2007-10-29 19:15:14
376.   Louis in SF
351
According to what I heard on the radio Torre, when asked about the Dodgers denied he was going there
2007-10-29 19:23:58
377.   nick
hmmmm-Pete Abraham's Yankee Journal News blog reports you guys have hired Torre:
http://yankees.lohudblogs.com/
"announcement could come as early as tonight"
2007-10-29 19:25:41
378.   nick
...he may be wrong, but he's a professional journalist and seems to have staked his rep on it
2007-10-29 19:28:28
379.   ToyCannon
At least FJT will be running in full bloom by next October.
2007-10-29 19:30:14
380.   trainwreck
377
Nick, do you think Torre would work well with a young lineup?
2007-10-29 19:31:37
381.   Bob Timmermann
This will then lead to the inevitable Jorge Posada signing and the trading of Russell Martin to the Yankees for Ron Villone AND Luis Vizcaino.
2007-10-29 19:36:49
382.   Bob Timmermann
And perhaps Bernie Williams will come out of retirement and he can give Juan Pierre throwing tips.
2007-10-29 19:36:54
383.   cult of basebaal
380 if he doesn't have the choice to play veterans instead, he should be all right ... cano and cabrera got chances with joe, but there weren't really any alternatives (cabrera played because matsui's injury and cano got his chance because tony womack was, well, tony womack) ... but joe has his veteran fetish (after womack got bumped from 2nd, he ended up in LF, sweet jebus) and it was clear this year that the FO was making moves specifically to block joe's worst tendencies (the betemit move was coupled with the release of miguel cairo, because it was clear that joe would keep playing cairo, regardless of the alternatives available)

and i wish i could take the under on the over/under on broxton's arm though ... joe likey shiney reliever toy!

poor scotty proctor ... just when you think that you're out, they pull you back in ...

2007-10-29 19:40:21
384.   cult of basebaal
all in all, he's not terrible, he's very good with people and about adequate with tactics ... but i don't think he would have made a difference for the dodgers this year because i don't think he would have counter-acted the veterantastic tendencies of nedly and i think things would have played out about the same ... maybe the clubhouse would have been a little better, maybe not ...
2007-10-29 19:42:51
385.   trainwreck
So we may fire Grady Little in order to hire Grady Little?
2007-10-29 19:44:15
386.   willhite
So Mattingly will follow Torre out here to be his bench coach and then be in line to succeed Joe when he retires in three years.

Still with no managerial experience, Mattingly will be furious when the Dodgers turn to young catcher, Russel Martin as their next manager, in spite of implied promises when Mattingly joined Torre's staff.

You just can't stop those catchers :)

2007-10-29 19:46:12
387.   nick
380 as my dad used to say: "are bears Catholic? does the Pope ____ in the woods?"

the short answer is no. however: if Joe is deprived of his veteran bench players, he will adapt to the new environment. we got cano and melky established in the majors. hell, Joe actually started Betemit several times....

I think the Massive Upside Potential for you guys is Joe's gravitas and the near-universal media respect for him. he achieved stability in NYC: not easy. he will tame the savage Plaschke. repeats of The DePodesta Travesty (yes, a Robert Ludlum novel) are unlikely in the near future.

the downside is that Joe and Ned might get involved in some sick veteran fetishism. but who do they have? Nomah may get too many at-bats, but otherwise.....

2007-10-29 19:48:04
388.   nick
what I don't get is how do you guys fire Grady without looking very cynical? what's the narrative of blame here, exactly?
2007-10-29 19:56:10
389.   trainwreck
388
If this happens, I would not be surprised if McCourt loses all credibility in baseball because he is the guy who will fire people if his team does not make the post-season every year.
2007-10-29 19:57:13
390.   willhite
388 -

Since most of the Dodger moves are based on PR, this one is a no-brainer. Eliminate the Forrest Gump - like Grady and replace him with the very glib Joe Torre. This will give the Dodgers a great one-two punch with the local media. From Ned to Joe to Plaschke.

2007-10-29 19:57:22
391.   cult of basebaal
387 he'll shut plaschke up for a moment, but nothing short of a bat to the back of the head could silence that blowhard ... what lesson did he take from the sox win ... why ... check out that Sweeeeet Veternany Goodness ... never mind how TWO teams in his own division made the playoffs, by actually TRUSTING their youngsters , nope, success is all about dependable, trustable veterans ...

i'd tie plaschke and simers in a sack together with asps and throw them in the river, but i doubt it would do them any harm, asps observe professional courtesies too, like sharks with lawyers ...

2007-10-29 19:57:40
392.   paranoidandroid
ToyCannon: I'm usually up for a Clips game, I can meet up with there with about a weeks notice to talk the wife into it. I've had the Big Game package for years, didn't re-up this year. Two small ones at home, made six games last year.

I find going on a weeknight is more fun because I upgrade my seats easily. I also figured out where the promotion team hangs out and how they pick people for the contests. Last year, I got to shoot the half-court shot at the end of the third quarter. I also got picked for the free throw contest in middle of second quarter at another game. I missed the half court shot by ten feet, it is a much bigger court than you realize. I hit three free throws in 15 seconds, the other guy made four.

As far as 2006 goes, we can't repeat that one mistake again without Daniel Ewing. But Ewing shouldn't have been in the game at that point anyway. Mike made a poor coaching decision.

I think Kaman will have a solid year, Thornton can be rookie of the year, Corey can be a scoring machine, and Sam stirs the pot. If he's healthy, and Knight can be a solid second point, the Clips have a shot at the playoffs. I don't like the Ruben Patterson move, but it isn't a big investment.

2007-10-29 19:59:16
393.   Bob Timmermann
Unlike Walter O'Malley who didn't renew the contract of a manager who led his team to the best record in team history in 1953.
2007-10-29 20:03:00
394.   Louis in SF
388

Read the Peter Abraham story and he claims to have two sources...If this is the case I am not sure it solves any of the real problems. I hope if Ned does get wacked, he lays out the whole story of what happened last year...As an old time Dodger fan, while I respect the job that Torre did, am not sure if I like the fact that our front office & manager are now made up of ex Giants and Yankee's

2007-10-29 20:08:47
395.   dzzrtRatt
373 Right, I know. My syntax made it unclear. Wise Guy = Pileggi = GoodFellas.

Try Casino again. It's sort of GoodFellas II, I guess, but that's why it's enjoyable. What distinctive is the mix of legit and criminal, the rail DeNiro's character is constantly riding. Sharon Stone is great in "Casino" I think. I don't really have a problem with her acting, it's her talk-show personality that is nails-on-chalkboard. She was good in "Broken Flowers" and "Total Recall," and could anyone else have pulled off "Basic Instinct?" She's a twit, but most actors are, including good ones.

2007-10-29 20:27:13
396.   trainwreck
One would think a report that says we hired Joe Torre and Don Mattingly would cause a lot of traffic on the site.
2007-10-29 20:34:03
397.   Dodgers49
Mets Could Make Pitch to Acquire Rodriguez

>> The Mets locked up José Reyes and David Wright to long-term extensions in 2006, expecting them to blossom together into perennial All-Stars on the left side of the infield. The Mets would have to ask one of them to switch positions to accommodate Rodriguez.

The most likely candidate would be Wright, who in spring training volunteered to move anywhere if the Mets acquired Rodriguez. But where would he go? To first base, where Carlos Delgado is owed $16 million next season? With second base unsettled, they could shift Wright there, too, but even for the athletically gifted Wright, that seems like a stretch.

http://tinyurl.com/349xqv

2007-10-29 20:45:30
398.   Bob Timmermann
396

We're all rumored out. We have rumor fatigue.

Since the Dodger season ended a month ago, we've lost our timing for picking up on rumors.

2007-10-29 20:56:39
399.   dzzrtRatt
396 Plus it's too much confusion. The fog of war and all that. Truth is the first casualty, especially when Scott Boras, Ned Colletti, George Steinbrenner and a bunch of sports pundits are involved.

Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown.

2007-10-29 21:02:10
400.   bigcpa
Has Rotoworld posted any breaking news from Torre's appearance on Letterman? I can't wait for the west coast delayed airing.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-10-29 21:04:03
401.   Dodgers49
Reasons for Decision to Opt Out Seem Shaky

>> Doug Melvin, who was the Rangers' general manager at the time, recalled yesterday that he and the team's owner, Tom Hicks, among others, gave Rodriguez a video presentation in the boardroom at the Rangers' ballpark, showing him their good young prospects.

"He bought into it at the time," Melvin said by cellphone from Denver, "but a year later he became impatient. All of a sudden he started talking about wanting veteran players." <<

http://tinyurl.com/yt5ufp

2007-10-29 21:10:19
402.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
At the moment, I'm less than enthused about the Torre rumor - not out of any love for Little or dislike for Joe, but having three managers in a short span (2005-08) can't be healthy for a team's long-term outlook.
2007-10-29 21:15:44
403.   ToyCannon
LogicReader, remind me again about how Denver was so outclassed on so many levels, going into tonights game that it couldn't possibly be competitive.
2007-10-29 21:16:24
404.   Bob Timmermann
1949 - Burt Shotton - 1st place
1950 - Burt Shotton - 2nd place by 2 games
1951 - Charlie Dressen - 2nd place by 1 game
1952 - Charlie Dressen - 1st place
1953 - Charlie Dressen - 1st place
1954 - Walter Alston - 2nd place
1955 - Walter Alston - 1st place

Or St. Louis Cardinals
1926 - Rogers Hornsby - 1st place
Then traded
1927 - Bob O'Farrell - 2nd place
1928 - Bill McKechnie - 1st place
1929 - Billy Southworth, Gabby Street, Bill McKechnie - 4th place
1930 - Gabby Street - 1st place
1931 - Gabby Street - 1st place
1932 - Gabby Street - 5th place
1933 - Gabby Street, Frankie Frisch - 6th place
1934 - Frankie Frisch - 1st place

2007-10-29 21:18:06
405.   Jason in Canada
370 "the extra-chromosone look". That's classy.
2007-10-29 21:18:47
406.   Louis in SF
Wonder who the two sources are for the Torre story, but the New York Times is now running in their Girardi story that Torre will become the Dodger manager and Donnie baseball will follow him.
2007-10-29 21:21:51
407.   Dodgers49
From Tony Jackson (per Little/Torre):

>> The fact the Dodgers have been so conspicuously silent on the matter would seem to be an indication the story has legs. Colletti rarely fails to return calls from reporters, but he has been unreachable since the middle of last week. <<

## One interesting subplot of the Dodgers possibly hiring Torre has to do with Don Mattingly, who was Torre's bench coach this season and his hitting coach the previous three seasons. ##

http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/

2007-10-29 21:31:05
408.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
California Angels
1971 - Lefty Phillips - 4th place
1972 - Del Rice - 5th place
1973 - Bobby Winkles - 4th place
1974 - Bobby Winkles, Whitey Herzog, and Dick Williams - 4th place
1975 - Dick Williams - 6th place
1976 - Dick Williams and Norm Sherry - 4th place
1977 - Norm Sherry and Dave Garcia - 5th place
2007-10-29 21:34:46
409.   Jason in Canada
Sorry if anyone has already shared this, but I came across this article and thought it was a good read. It's on the ghosts the Dodgers left in Brooklyn.

Just in time for Halloween!

http://tinyurl.com/3e5myk

2007-10-29 21:39:14
410.   Bob Timmermann
408
I think we've succeeded in proving that if you have good players, you can keep changing managers and it won't matter all that much.
2007-10-29 21:41:45
411.   LogikReader
403

Hey TC. Great game!

First of all, GB still won the game. Second, I have to hand it to the Broncos... when it's prime time, they get up for the game and then some!

2007-10-29 21:44:03
412.   Daniel Zappala
Looking back on the thread, I find it interesting that some of the readers here have stopped being fans of the Lakers, most are not fans of the Rams, and some are even thinking of not being Dodgers fans if the team goes south. I especially find it odd that someone would stop being a fan of the Lakers because they don't get to listen to Chick Hearn any more.

I think this is because for years I have lived my LA sports affections through the box scores, online stories, blogs, and, occasionally a TV game through DirecTV. My early years were spent on the TV and radio broadcasts, but these have been less available to me as I have grown up, become busy, and moved away. For me, it's like my youthful experience has been bottled and I keep it with me and I can't imagine giving it up. Though I may no longer be "passionate" in the sense of getting upset when things don't work out, I follow them through thick or thin and always root for them. I don't see it ever changing. These are my teams.

2007-10-29 21:45:06
413.   Hanley
I'm in Central Time Zone and just watched Letterman.

Letterman asked Torre specifically about managing for the Dodgers, and he said "They have a contract...err manager.'

He then referred to the published newspaper reports linking him to the Dodgers and said that newspapers can be wrong. He added, "There's no truth to any of it...right now."

We shall see.

First time poster, by the way!

2007-10-29 21:46:18
414.   Bumsrap
will Don Mattingly's first official act as coach be to promote his son to the bigs?

Maybe Girardi will turn down the Yankees offer and sign with the Dodgers.

Just trade Kent already.

2007-10-29 21:46:51
415.   blue22
So odds on Ned surviving through November? Maybe Frank just decides to hit the reset button again, and go with Torre and Ng.
2007-10-29 21:48:21
416.   Bumsrap
Hey Hanley, you are now eligible for the secret handshake.
2007-10-29 21:48:31
417.   blue22
414 - I think Kent just solidified his role next season. Now it's Torre's job to keep Kent's mouth shut and make nice-nice in the clubhouse.
2007-10-29 21:48:52
418.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
415 - I'm in favor of that.
2007-10-29 21:50:03
419.   blue22
418 - Ng and Torre have the same Yankee bling. Go to bat for her, Joe!
2007-10-29 21:50:29
420.   Bumsrap
417 - I am hoping Kent hit his way into a trade
2007-10-29 21:54:36
421.   blue22
I'm pretty excited to get another Mattingly in the organization. Not many baseball names better than "Mattingly".
2007-10-29 21:59:14
422.   Hanley
416 Sweet!

Letterman did ask Torre about other jobs, but there wasn't anything of note said. When Torre mispoke and said "contract" rather than "manager," he blushed a bit.

I'm pretty much ambivalent about this change, if it indeed occurs. One positive is instant credibility -- along the lines of signing Furcal two years ago -- but an off-setting negative is that all the talk of McCourt being hatchet-happy will resurface.

2007-10-29 22:00:05
423.   dzzrtRatt
Here's some good news, maybe. The Yankees need to replace A-Rod's offensive production. This means they will probably sign Lowell, Crede, Jones and Hunter. So Grady can't.
2007-10-29 22:03:39
424.   Bob Timmermann
I think we're all missing the biggest problem in baseball: who will manage the Pirates next year?
2007-10-29 22:03:41
425.   trainwreck
I feel bad for Grady.

I am kind of surprised I typed that.

2007-10-29 22:04:51
426.   mannyman
I really think Ned is on the hotseat. This could be shaping up to be an exact repeat of 2006. Manager (Tracy) gets canned and GM (DePo) soon follows. Personally, I'm all for getting rid of both Grady and Ned. They are quite possible the worst management tandem in all of baseball. If Ned goes, here's to hoping Jocketty will soon be joining us.
2007-10-29 22:04:56
427.   mannyman
I really think Ned is on the hotseat. This could be shaping up to be an exact repeat of 2006. Manager (Tracy) gets canned and GM (DePo) soon follows. Personally, I'm all for getting rid of both Grady and Ned. They are quite possible the worst management tandem in all of baseball. If Ned goes, here's to hoping Jocketty will soon be joining us.
2007-10-29 22:07:59
428.   Bumsrap
423 - a rumor exists that Jones and padres are talking.
2007-10-29 22:11:24
429.   Bob Timmermann
I should put some context into my earlier list of managerial changes for the Dodgers and Cardinals.

In the case of the Cardinals, Branch Rickey was the GM, but the team owner, Sam Breadon, hired and fired all the managers. Rickey didn't like to be responsible for hiring and firing managers. He just cared about players.

The changes with the Dodger managers were partly because Leo Durocher got suspended and then moved to the Giants and after O'Malley took control from Rickey, he didn't like Dressen asking for a multiyear deal.

2007-10-29 22:14:15
430.   overkill94
There seems to be a more definite source for the Torre to the Dodgers rumor: http://tinyurl.com/2k98fj

It's still unnamed sources, but there's a lot more fervor behind this one. Rotoworld speculates that it might help luring ARod and/or Rivera to the Dodgers. I'd take either, but obviously ARod would be at the top of the list.

2007-10-29 22:14:16
431.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
429 - The Angels, OTOH, were just clueless.
2007-10-29 22:15:57
432.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
430 - Signing Mariano Riviera would entail spending a lot of money to fix a non-existent problem.
2007-10-29 22:17:29
433.   blue22
430 - I was under the impression that was the only source for this. It's odd that no one else has mentioned it. They're still talking about ARod and Girardi on ESPN.
2007-10-29 22:17:47
434.   Bob Timmermann
432
But signing Mariano Rivera would let us debate if he would be allowed to wear #42!
2007-10-29 22:18:08
435.   overkill94
Similar to my optimistic thoughts when the Girardi rumors were swirling, it would seem that management was looking for a scapegoat not only for the late collapse but also for the clubhouse dissent. Bringing in a new manager makes it seem like things could change, especially a guy who has (according to the pundits) kept the biggest egos in baseball in check for the last 10 years.

While this all might seem like smokescreens and fluff, it could also mean that management wants to go forward with the current personnel (aka the kids) and wants some sort of change to get the media off their back. It's not the most reasonable line of thinking on their part, but at least it gives me hope that guys like Kemp and Loney are safe from a symbolic cleansing.

2007-10-29 22:19:48
436.   trainwreck
I think McCourt and Ned would love the amount of attention hiring Torre would bring.
2007-10-29 22:20:53
437.   overkill94
433 Sorry if it was a repeated source, I'm not about to go back through the last 400 posts. I checked the last 30 and they seemed to be still referencing the non-committal responses from Colletti and other hazy logic.

As I'm typing this, ESPN is running with the story, so it's pretty close to being a done deal.

2007-10-29 22:20:56
438.   trainwreck
Joe Torre news just hit Sportscenter.

And Tony Jackson is on!

2007-10-29 22:21:41
439.   Greg Brock
438 And he knows nothing.

Nothing!

2007-10-29 22:24:17
440.   Greg Brock
And the NY guy says he has sources, as do other writers.

Tony Jackson gets scooped in his own backyard.

2007-10-29 22:25:25
441.   Bob Timmermann
But nobody in LA is talking. We LA types are often indecisive and reticent to discuss personnel matters.
2007-10-29 22:25:49
442.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Another factor for McCourt that would tilt the scales in favor of Torre's hiring: It would shut up Plaschke and Simers. No way they have the guts to rip this. In fact, they'll be leading the "Great hire!" brigade.
2007-10-29 22:26:53
443.   Greg Brock
441 We LA types are often indecisive and reticent to discuss personnel matters.

That's exactly what I read on Defamer today. Or was it Perez Hilton?

2007-10-29 22:27:19
444.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
440 - Eh, I wouldn't crack on Jackson too badly. It appears the Dodgers are showing excellent message discipline. The Yankees scene, meanwhile, is full of talk now from a zillion different parties.
2007-10-29 22:27:46
445.   trainwreck
The biggest benefit to me is that now everyone will be talking about the Dodgers the next couple of days instead of the Yankees and Red Sox.
2007-10-29 22:29:38
446.   trainwreck
Nothing but winning records for Grady Little and he can't hold a job past two years.
2007-10-29 22:32:17
447.   Greg Brock
444 Oh, I wasn't insulting Jackson. But he did get scooped. You'd think, once the NY press got multiple sources, the Dodgers would throw a beat writer a bone. Jackson went on SportsCenter and didn't have a clue. Didn't look good.
2007-10-29 22:33:28
448.   trainwreck
447
Yeah, he even said I was told I would look stupid if I went with this.
2007-10-29 22:33:50
449.   Who Is Karim Garcia
I'm so excited, I broke it hiatus from this board.
2007-10-29 22:35:47
450.   Who Is Karim Garcia
btw, I missed you guys!
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-10-29 22:38:14
451.   Greg Brock
If anything, the Dodgers are being talked about on national television. That's a start (I guess? Maybe?).

449 Hey there!

2007-10-29 22:40:31
452.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Why do I picture Little getting a phone call that sounds much like DeNiro, in "Goodfellas," learning of Joe Pesci's death?
"You're gone, Grady. There was nothing we could do."
2007-10-29 22:40:46
453.   thinkblue0
446-

ugh...I'm so sick of all the rumors. Just give Torre the job and get Logan White to be our GM.

That would be a tandem I would at least TRUST.

2007-10-29 22:43:00
454.   bhsportsguy
451 As Trainwreck noted earlier, I have thrown my hat in the "I don't care what happens in the last 4 games" ring.
2007-10-29 22:44:19
455.   Eric Stephen
Maybe firing Little will create a reincarnation of the Buck Showalter Syndrome® (since retired).

Yanks fired Showalter after 1995, won title in 1996 (Torre)
D-Backs fired Showalter after 2000, won title in 2001 (Brenly)

Red Sox fired Little after 2003, won title in 2004 (Francona)
Dodgers perhaps fired Little after 2007, win titles 2008-2013?

I can't wait for the headlines if the Torre rumors are true. Some possibilities:

"Dodgers Get a Little Better"
"Escape From New York"
"Dodgers Are Torre Hunters"

2007-10-29 22:44:34
456.   hernari
A placeholder?

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2007/10/deal_brings_torre_mattingly_to.html

2007-10-29 22:46:47
457.   trainwreck
There's no horizontal move that could get so much publicity.

455
I like your first headline the best.

2007-10-29 22:48:17
458.   Greg Brock
454 Welcome to the Dark Side. Red lightsabers are on aisle five. Black cloaks on aisle two. Don't forget to grab a name.

"Darth Optimist" would work for you.

2007-10-29 22:48:54
459.   Bob Timmermann
All we need now is Vin Scully narrating a piece before a game, "He was the son of a Brooklyn police detective..."
2007-10-29 22:50:19
460.   trainwreck
Let's just hope Mr. Guerrero has a better list of candidates this time.
2007-10-29 22:53:12
461.   Greg Brock
By the by, since I was commenting on another site most of the evening, let me say that this MNF was the worst hero worship in the history of hero worship. I like Favre, but I really can't take any more Favre hagiography. It's just insane.
2007-10-29 22:54:21
462.   trainwreck
The message board at Dodgers.com has never been so positive.
2007-10-29 22:54:26
463.   Eric Stephen
I hope Torre's apparent imminent arrival doesn't mean the return of 86-year-old David Wells.
2007-10-29 22:54:37
464.   Dodgers49
The LA Times finally chimes in:

Little on way out? Dodgers aren't talking

>> Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti didn't respond to phone calls for the fifth day in a row. McCourt also hasn't returned calls and a Dodgers spokesman offered no comment. <<

http://tinyurl.com/255s7q

2007-10-29 22:55:29
465.   Greg Brock
460 Chris Peterson? Have we reached consensus on that? They are an exceptionally disciplined team, and don't run the West Coast. You asked me who I'd choose...That guy is mighty appealing.
2007-10-29 22:55:36
466.   bhsportsguy
459 Actually, there are hiring Torre to replace Lyons on those away games.

Although it would be interesting to hear Kevin Kennedy second guess Joe Torre.

2007-10-29 22:56:24
467.   Eric Stephen
461 I turned the channel after the first long TD, which was mostly great work after the catch, and Tony Kornheiser said something to the effect of "this is why people purchase TVs, cable, etc."
2007-10-29 22:57:38
468.   bhsportsguy
465 That's cool, let's not drag down DT with this talk right now.

It would be great if someone fessed up and said this was all some big internet rumor that got out of hand (this Torre rumor).

2007-10-29 22:57:49
469.   nick
441 443 You LA types should learn the difference between "reticent" and "reluctant" ;-)

[as a representative of the crass vulgarians at Bronx Banter I feel it my duty to point out this common error...]

my real reason for posting was to say that Peter Abraham doesn't have to worry about Dodger favour--so easier for him to break the story (and he also wants to make current Yankee ownership look bad, which, in his defense, is pretty easy to do right now)

2007-10-29 22:58:18
470.   trainwreck
465
I question his ability to recruit in LA. We are making a dent in recruiting again, because we are getting the inner city kids.
2007-10-29 23:01:33
471.   thinkblue0
Yahoo is reporting Torre in, Little out.
2007-10-29 23:02:05
472.   Bob Timmermann
I'm reluctant to discuss my reticence.
reticent

Main Entry:
ret·i·cent Listen to the pronunciation of reticent
Pronunciation:
\-sənt\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Latin reticent-, reticens, present participle of reticēre to keep silent, from re- + tacēre to be silent — more at tacit
Date:
circa 1834

1 : inclined to be silent or uncommunicative in speech : reserved 2 : restrained in expression, presentation, or appearance 3 : reluctant

2007-10-29 23:02:09
473.   Eric Stephen
468 It would also be refreshing to see an article that said someone not returning phone calls means that there is nothing to report.

That said, I hope Ned doesn't return phone calls around the time A-Rod to LA rumors surface! :)

2007-10-29 23:03:42
474.   bhsportsguy
470 Not necessarily due to Dorrell, most credit Walker and Scott, but we digress don't we.

For those down in LA, these early Simpsons are always a little disorienting at first because of the animation and plots.

2007-10-29 23:07:27
475.   Greg Brock
472 I knew you wouldn't let 469 fly, Bob.

469 {McLaughlin} WRONG! {/McLaughlin}

2007-10-29 23:11:18
476.   Bob Timmermann
Going all OED on people:

reticent, adj.

Reserved; disinclined to speak freely; given to silence or concealment.

2007-10-29 23:13:08
477.   bhsportsguy
If the paper that prints all the news that is fit to print, prints a story, is it true?

http://tinyurl.com/2s4jxk

2007-10-29 23:18:46
478.   Bob Timmermann
477
Is a dream a lie that don't come true?
2007-10-29 23:19:34
479.   Eric Stephen
Torre wore uniform #6 managing the Yankees. He wore #15 playing for the Braves through 1968, then switched to #9 with the Cardinals in 1969 and wore that number until his playing career ended with the Mets in 1977.

I'm not sure what number Torre wore managing the Mets, Braves, or Cardinals, but if the rumors are true, it appears Tony Abreu is the most likely to give up his uniform number for Torre, as Furcal and Pierre have seniority.

2007-10-29 23:21:52
480.   nick
475 not so fast!

the mistake lies in the use of
"reticent TO"--a common usage error--see, for instance the Columbia Journalism Review's "Language Corner":

Reluctant/Reticent
In Other Words, Shy
By Evan Jenkins

Reticence is only one form of reluctance. And the words work differently.

"Reticence" means reluctance to speak up or come forward; silence; reserve. (Think RETIring, RETIcence.) And along with its adjective, "reticent," our word is commonly followed by a word or phrase meaning "concerning": His reticence about the accounts made the investigators suspicious.

Like "silence" or "reserve," "reticence" is uncomfortable with an infinitive; "reticence to sign," or "to" do anything, will offend every time. "Reluctance" and "reluctant," though, work nicely with infinitives, as for example in "reluctance to sign further contracts."

--That final paragraph is key, gentlemen. "reticence"-plus-infinitive will offend EVERY TIME....how could I then not take offence?

2007-10-29 23:24:58
481.   bhsportsguy
479 Maybe Joe Torre can buy Juan Pierre a motorcycle from Jeff Kent for his number.
2007-10-29 23:26:30
482.   Bob Timmermann
Joe Torre wore #9 when he managed the Cardinals:

http://tinyurl.com/2vt47x

2007-10-29 23:27:38
483.   nick
"We LA types are often indecisive and reticent to discuss personnel matters."=incorrect!

"I'm reluctant to discuss my reticence about personnel matters"=correct!

to be fair, Bob, I should have congratulated you for that personnel/personal pun, which was so suave I completely missed it the first time...

2007-10-29 23:28:26
484.   Eric Stephen
481 That's perfect. What a way to foster chemistry in the clubhouse!

Now I would mention something about Pierre taking motorcycle lessons from 1966 Bob Dylan, but that would be rooting for injury and that would be wrong.

2007-10-29 23:28:56
485.   Greg Brock
I, for one, welcome our new Bronx Banter overlords.
2007-10-29 23:28:58
486.   Bob Timmermann
I meant to use the word "personnel"
2007-10-29 23:32:52
487.   bhsportsguy
{485] Do we get to trade Rick Monday for Michael Kay too?
2007-10-29 23:33:07
488.   Eric Stephen
485 Without knowing precisely whether or not the Torre rumors are true, would you say it's time for DTers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?
2007-10-29 23:33:24
489.   s choir
From the LA Times:

McCourt stood behind Little and Colletti on the last day of the season, saying in a news conference that both would be back in 2008.

Asked why, McCourt pointed to what he called "core values" that he wanted to be the franchise's foundation -- he listed hard work, trust, integrity, respect, unselfishness and teamwork.

Well, except for integrity.

2007-10-29 23:33:44
490.   Bob Timmermann
Joe Torre wore #9 when he managed the Braves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW0DQvsEii0

2007-10-29 23:35:54
491.   Eric Stephen
482 ,490 Well done, Bob.
2007-10-29 23:36:13
492.   Greg Brock
488 Yes I would, Eric.
2007-10-29 23:36:30
493.   Bob Timmermann
490
That argument came from this game:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ATL/ATL198209080.shtml

The Braves beat the Dodgers 12-11 in 10 innings.

2007-10-29 23:38:25
494.   Bob Timmermann
487
I believe it's Vin Scully for Suzyn Waldman.

Straight up.

But soon we can have the DES Network and episodes of Dodgerography.

"Tonight, we have a look back at the career of Giovanni Carrara..."

2007-10-29 23:42:52
495.   nick
486 no, I know you did, Bob--that's why I thought it was clever!

(front office reticent about personnel matters // Angelenos reticent about personal matters

[smashes head against wall]

moral: never pay sincere compliment to person you've just been snarky with....

ok, off to bed....I like Torre. I liked Proctor, too. I just want you guys to be happy with them [weeps quietly....]

2007-10-29 23:44:00
496.   Eric Stephen
494 James Lipton would host our Center Stage.
2007-10-29 23:44:56
497.   Eric Stephen
Speaking of feasting on goo, Terry Forster is pitching for the Dodgers in Bob's clip in 490 .
2007-10-29 23:46:39
498.   bhsportsguy
494 No deal.
2007-10-29 23:47:32
499.   Eric Stephen
Ross Newhan joins Dylan Hernandez in a new Times piece (no new info yet):

http://tinyurl.com/yr2p3f

2007-10-29 23:48:20
500.   Bob Timmermann
497
Forster wasn't too fat in 1982.

I didn't remember Fulton County Stadium being that rickety back then.

Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2007-10-29 23:49:21
501.   Bob Timmermann
499
I'm guessing that Mr. Newhan has a few more numbers in his Rolodex than Mr. Hernandez.
2007-10-29 23:51:18
502.   Eric Stephen
500 Georgia has since passed Mississippi to become 41st in the prevention of rickets.
2007-10-29 23:52:05
503.   bhsportsguy
501 Who would have thought that Grady Little would get replaced sooner than Jim Tracy?
2007-10-29 23:53:04
504.   bhsportsguy
Wow a 500 post thread on a day when nothing really happened.
2007-10-29 23:53:19
505.   Eric Stephen
503 Tracy, for one.
2007-10-29 23:54:37
506.   silverwidow
Why didn't the despicable Luis Gonzalez file for free agency on Monday? He couldn't wait to get out at last check.
2007-10-29 23:56:59
507.   Eric Stephen
The quote of the day comes from an anonymous Dodger insider, from Tony Jackson's latest:

Another source within the organization, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said, ``I don't know where any of this is coming from, but if you write it, you'll look like an idiot.''

2007-10-29 23:58:58
508.   Bob Timmermann
I'm guessing that the South has never had many cases of rickets as the Northeast since it's actually sunny there.
2007-10-29 23:59:26
509.   Eric Stephen
506 Maybe he threw the filing papers, and they are taking longer than everyone else's to get where they need to go.
2007-10-30 00:05:43
510.   Bill Crain
508

Dark-skinned peoples in northern latitudes get rickets. Light-skinned peoples in southern latitudes get skin cancer. It's a tradeoff.

Myself, I had the lasagna.

2007-10-30 00:08:48
511.   Louis in SF
When you read the new Tony Jackson story and the new LA Times story with Ross Newhan, there seems to be some implication that this was done above the Baseball Operations Level. Tony Jackson actually uses those words. Could this mean that Ned might be out the door as well?
2007-10-30 00:17:17
512.   Bob Timmermann
If the deal is being done above the Baseball Operations Level, I suppose it's time to welcome Jim Eisenreich back to L.A.
2007-10-30 00:18:20
513.   bhsportsguy
And you thought this rumor might give Plaschke pause to criticize.

http://tinyurl.com/2secgy

Hey, at least he considers a mistake that Loney spent two months in Vegas and he advocates moving Pierre.

2007-10-30 00:24:49
514.   trainwreck
I really hate when Plaschke says,"Shame on you."
2007-10-30 00:24:58
515.   bhsportsguy
Well, Joe Torre is wearing a blue shirt.
2007-10-30 00:25:55
516.   bhsportsguy
Dodger reference number 1, grew up with the Dodgers vs. Giants (Brooklyn).
2007-10-30 00:28:47
517.   Louis in SF
514
This does have that Fox feel to it.
2007-10-30 00:37:32
518.   bhsportsguy
It was a non-denial denial.
2007-10-30 00:38:32
519.   trainwreck
Joe may have had a Freudian slip there.
2007-10-30 00:40:43
520.   bhsportsguy
519 "so far"
2007-10-30 00:41:18
521.   trainwreck
Plus, quickly after mentioning the Dodgers he went on about the Angels and no one in the world is trying to connect him to there.

I just kept picturing him being interviewed talking about Matt Kemp, James Loney, Chad Billingsley, and Russell Martin.

2007-10-30 00:43:43
522.   trainwreck
There is a Torre story on Dodgers.com now.
2007-10-30 00:49:50
523.   bhsportsguy
522 Okay, so lets add it up. L.A. Times, Daily News, New York Times, The Journal News (Westchester County), who broke the story, ESPN.com, YahooSports, and now Ken Gurnick, after midnight, decides to write it up on the Dodgers.com site, the interesting note in Gurnick's story is the tidbit that there have been "internal discussions" on the manager since the end of the season.
2007-10-30 00:55:09
524.   Greg Brock
Why can't Bill Plaschke write normal prose, with paragraphs and what not. Really, just write a column. Did Jim Murry do this?

I like this move.

Then again, I don't.

I could say this...

Instead, I say that.

Opinion.

2007-10-30 00:57:09
525.   trainwreck
Well, at the very least we know we are going to have a new manager, because there is no way we can retain Little after this.
2007-10-30 00:57:41
526.   Greg Brock
*Murray. Sorry, Jim.
2007-10-30 01:00:25
527.   dzzrtRatt
Another source within the organization, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said, ``I don't know where any of this is coming from, but if you write it, you'll look like an idiot.''

Check out "The War Room," the documentary about Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign for president. This type of FUD* is straight out of the Carville/Stephanopoulos playbook.

Which is where Camille Johnston was hatched.

And note: It is not a denial. It's just a sort of threatening sounding growl.

*FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

2007-10-30 01:24:51
528.   natepurcell
Torre and Mattingly huh...

How about bye bye Colletti and hello Logan?

2007-10-30 01:27:22
529.   Greg Brock
How about bye bye Colletti and hello Kim?
2007-10-30 04:38:26
530.   D4P
The biggest benefit to me is that now everyone will be talking about the Dodgers the next couple of days instead of the Yankees and Red Sox.

"West coast team to hire ex-Yankee manager, fire ex-Red Sox skipper"

Torre on Letterman: "Well, the Dodgers have a contract, I mean, a manager," Torre replied. "The Angels have a very good manager [Mike Scioscia]."

2007-10-30 05:46:29
531.   Steve in Rochester
This all makes me feel so slimey. Will the Dodgers ever regain the organizational stability they once took pride in???
2007-10-30 06:14:40
532.   Sam in SC
assuming that the torre story is true, I wonder what sort of effect, if any, this will have on the youth movement? I was looking forward to seeing kemp and ethier in the same OF next season.

torre never really had to deal with developing younger players. george always went out and bought him veteran free agents.

and I wonder if this would get the dodgers an Arod discount.

2007-10-30 06:16:34
533.   Ken Noe
528 529 Really, either one. If you going to have this much turmoil, replace Colletti too, now, instead of a year from now. get it over with. He's more responsible than Little. And especially if all of this is about placating Boras and going after A-Rod.
2007-10-30 06:18:01
534.   D4P
and I wonder if this would get the dodgers an Arod discount

Things you won't hear:

Alex: "Hey Scott, maybe we should give the Dodgers a discount because Joe is their manager..."

Scott: "Great idea, Alex!"

or

Scott: "Hey Alex, maybe we should give the Dodgers a discount because Joe is their manager..."

Alex: "Great idea, Scott!"

2007-10-30 06:21:10
535.   al bundy
The bottom line is that we are stuck with McCourt, for better or worse. But firing Little can - for one simple reason - be only a good thing. It would clearly illustrate that McCourt doesn't believe the baloney that comes out of his own mouth. Think about how messed up the organization would be if Frank actually believed this statement, as reported in today's LAT.

"I think they share the values I talked about repeatedly," McCourt said of Little and Colletti. "When we do have an opportunity to talk -- and we do talk as a group -- and we talk about the things I'm saying, I don't get a blank look. These gentlemen believe in what I've just articulated. At the end of the day, it takes people who are committed to one goal, which is winning. I think they share the same values and the same goal."

If McCourt were actually that clueless in combination with a healthy dose of megalomania, there'd be no hope for the Dodgers.

Fire 'em both. To heck with the contracts.

2007-10-30 06:27:36
536.   Sam in SC
534 - you don't think they will come off their quarter of a billion dollar + price tag a few million? ;)
2007-10-30 06:28:48
537.   Ken Noe
527 It will be fascinating watching Johnston spin this one. My guess is that McCourt, like Claude Raines in Casablanca, will have shockingly discovered turmoil in the clubhouse. "Round up the usual suspects!"
2007-10-30 06:56:17
538.   Terry A
So, to continue the goo-feasting speculative spectacle around here...

If this is indeed happening, and if it indeed is happening over Ned's head, and we know that the last time this happened Jeff Kent's fingerprints were on the knife, and we know that Kent and Mrs. McCourt are buddies, and we know that Kent was really unhappy at season's end, and we know...

And to think people hate this time of year.

2007-10-30 07:03:55
539.   Ken Noe
538 It would be maddening indeed to find out that a decent man is getting stabbed in the numbers, that millions are being spent on a manager rather than players or player development, and that any stability is getting tossed out the window, all so Jeff Kent could rule the roost in his one last, overpaid year with the team. Geez, let's hope that's not it.
2007-10-30 07:11:13
540.   Bumsrap
AROD goes to his home town Marlins and signs for $30/yr, the amount the Marlins get from the luxury tax and then they trade Cabrerra for several young studs. And, the Marlins beat the Dodgers to a World Series, again.
2007-10-30 07:12:05
541.   Sam in SC
539 - I suppose that was my worry. that, should the dodgers replace little with torre, this is a reaction to the tension in the clubhouse at the end of the season, and it somehow represents a preference to veterans over the younger players.

sorta like if they hired dusty baker ;)

2007-10-30 07:18:27
542.   regfairfield
The only way this is a good idea is if we're just making Grady the scapegoat instead of someone useful. Torre is at best no better than Grady and costs millions more. Torre has done nothing to show that he can manage a team like the Dodgers better than any other manager, and is tactically incompetent enough to require a well publicized mandate on relief pitcher usage.

Of course, if the Dodgers just don't play five games under their third order winning percentage next year, Torre will become a folk hero and will be able to justify future unnecessary spending on a manager. It's a nice situation to be in.

2007-10-30 07:36:01
543.   Felton
Torre's hiring would be similar to Saints hiring Ditka, which was an obvious disaster. Coaches do not sell tickets, wins and Dodger Dogs sell tickets.
2007-10-30 07:42:03
544.   LogikReader
I didn't even put Torre on the "stuff I want/don't want to happen list." My list is going to explode!!!
2007-10-30 07:44:12
545.   Disabled List
543 Or it could be similar to the Lakers hiring Phil Jackson. The Dodgers should improve on 82 wins next year, regardless of who's managing.

Torre's not a bad choice from the all-important "clubhouse chemistry" point of view. He's one of the few guys who can command the respect of both the veterans and the young players at the same time. As for his game skills, I'm sure his lineups can't be any screwier than Little's.

I wonder if he has a hidden PVL addiction that we don't know about. He seemed willing to trust the few rookies he got in NY, like Cano and Joba. Nomar vs. LaRoche will be the first test, I guess.

2007-10-30 07:55:39
546.   regfairfield
545 Cano and Joba got their jobs from Tony Womack and Rowdy Kyle Farnsworth, respectively.

He also likes Andy Phillips, way, way too much, which suggests that Nomar is right up his alley.

2007-10-30 08:02:27
547.   fanerman
Why would Joe want to come here if he's just gonna get fired after his first missed playoff season?
2007-10-30 08:12:59
548.   Marty
I had said in an earlier thread that Torre would not manage again. Looks like I got that one right.
2007-10-30 08:17:54
549.   LogikReader
547

I'm sure the clubhouse dissolution had more to do with it than just missing the playoffs. The Dodgers would have been better off just hiring a good manager in the first place.

Hiring Torre: well, I'm not sure what difference it makes, but for PR it's fantastic! The Dodgers are getting national attention for the first time in a while.

2007-10-30 08:18:13
550.   Daniel Zappala
513 Argh. Why did you make me break my Plaschke ban and read that? He commits the single greatest mistake in sports writing:

He knows all about managing young homegrown players, the Derek Jeters and Jorge Posadas. But he also knows that you can't win without smart veterans, the Paul O'Neills and the Tino Martinezes.

There is only one Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez. You don't speak about individuals as if they were plurals. Instead:

He knows all about managing young homegrown players, such as Derek Jeter and Jorge Posada. But he also knows that you can't win without smart veterans, such as Paul O'Neill and the Tino Martinez.

Of course, if I was Plaschke's editor, he would not be allowed to start a sentence with "but". Also, I might kill myself first.

Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2007-10-30 08:25:26
551.   Ken Noe
"LA mental health line. May I help you?"

"Hi, my name is Scott...."

2007-10-30 08:26:00
552.   CanuckDodger
The Giants have hired away the East Coast crosschecker from the Dodgers' amateur scouting department, John Barr, and given him the job of special assitant to the GM. Baseball America credits Barr with playing a role in building up the Dodgers farm system the last few years, as one of Logan White's top lieutenants. Perhaps this signals that Sabean is really serious about rejuvenating the Giants' farm system, seeing it as the only way to avoid being left in the dust by the teams in the NL West with a lot of young talent.
2007-10-30 08:29:39
553.   ToyCannon
BP's unfiltered has even more ominous news:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=650
2007-10-30 08:34:19
554.   CajunDodger
553
GM Ned Colletti, AGM Kim Ng, and development guru Logan White have all been rumored as targets in the shifting sands of the Dodgers hierarchy.

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME??????

We asked the question earlier in the blog about what would make me sour completely on the Dodgers. If Ng and White are fired FOR NO REASON I am done.

Let's just hope that this reporter's source is an intern in the Accounting Department...

2007-10-30 08:38:29
555.   LogikReader
Cajun, don't you think it means that NedCo goes out, while the other two move up?
2007-10-30 08:40:14
556.   Ken Noe
555 My hope, but geez I hate the word "targets."
2007-10-30 08:40:20
557.   Improbable88
554 - Perhaps this "filtering" isn't as negative are you preceive it to be.

Maybe Ng or White could find themselves atop the Dodger GM hierarchy by November's end, with Coletti the odd man out?

2007-10-30 08:41:31
558.   Marty
553 Lasorda!
2007-10-30 08:43:43
559.   ToyCannon
If this was really orchestrated by the McCourts and not Ned, wouldn't you think a man of Ned's integrity would resign since his authority has been co-opted? I think it is a good bet that if DT asked Frank McCourt today what was the best thing he's done "hiring Ned Colletti" would not be what comes out of his mouth.
2007-10-30 08:44:22
560.   Bob Timmermann
Dave Littlefield needs a job. Perhaps he sent McCourt a resume.
2007-10-30 08:44:49
561.   LogikReader
I did find the Tommy Lasorda connection disconcerting.
2007-10-30 08:45:45
562.   ToyCannon
Why would anyone want to work for the McCourts?
2007-10-30 08:46:11
563.   Ken Noe
"Davey Johnson, the best manager in baseball who has had the toughest time getting and holding jobs, added a fourth team to his re$(0$)sume$(0$) yesterday. The Los Angeles Dodgers named Johnson successor to Walter Alston, Tommy Lasorda, Bill Russell and Glenn Hoffman. "We need to improve our on-base percentage, score more runs, have hitters go deeper into the count," said Kevin Malone, the Dodgers' new general manager, sounding as if he wanted to copy the Yankees' strategy for success." Murray Chass, NYT, 10/24/98
2007-10-30 08:47:15
564.   ToyCannon
It is Will Carrol, take it with a grain of salt. I just posted it because it was interesting not because I believe him.
2007-10-30 08:47:30
565.   Gen3Blue
553 AAARRRG!!!
2007-10-30 08:48:28
566.   ToyCannon
Amazing that Glenn Hoffman has never gotten another mangerial offer after that brief trial with us.
2007-10-30 08:48:39
567.   CajunDodger
555 , 557
I would love to see an Ng, White, Watson triumverate, but that would be logical. I am simply terrified about what the McCourts will do in the next week. I trust nothing...certainly not logic.
2007-10-30 08:49:50
568.   LogikReader
I doubt it will happen, but if the Dodgers blow out Ng and White this year, that'll do it for me, for a long while, at least ;)
2007-10-30 08:52:09
569.   LogikReader
Kim Ng as GM... that'd be a great PR move too. "First Ever Woman GM in MLB!"
2007-10-30 08:52:10
570.   DodgerBakers
560 I actually had some bile back up in my throat at that one.
2007-10-30 08:56:13
571.   CajunDodger
569
I would actually like to see her get a shot. That would satisfy the McCourts' "continuity, integrity, etc." bull they are selling and would give us someone that I feel deserves a chance.

And she never worked a single day for the Giants.

2007-10-30 08:58:32
572.   paranoidandroid
561 Ditto. He's the man carrying the hatchet yet again. Anyone who isn't him isn't good enough. Go away Tommy. Go far away.
2007-10-30 09:04:21
573.   Andrew Shimmin
562- I do! They hire you for a term you know going in you'll never have to complete, but they keep paying you, anyway. Just think of it as doubling your yearly salary, but deferring the payout. My dream in life is to be paid to not work.
2007-10-30 09:07:23
574.   LogikReader
"The SUMMER OF ANDREW!!"
2007-10-30 09:08:40
575.   Andrew Shimmin
There'd be less cheese, and no velvet to speak of, but yes. That's the idea.
2007-10-30 09:12:37
576.   Don Tordilla
Rosenthal reporting that Torre is 'undecided'. What a mess if he doesn't come at this point...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7390506

2007-10-30 09:14:56
577.   Bob Timmermann
576
Then the Dodgers can finally hire Felipe Alou...
2007-10-30 09:15:24
578.   fanerman
Okay, getting rid of White and Ng would probably make me go into another month-long self-imposed isolation of disillusionment and frustration, just like after DePo got fired.
2007-10-30 09:17:03
579.   CajunDodger
576
These "sources" within the Dodger organization, whoever they are, have some pretty big mouths. I wonder if they just assumed that the job is "premier" and would be impossible to turn down.

In a detatched sort of way, it would be pretty funny if he turned us down.

2007-10-30 09:17:06
580.   ToyCannon
572
I was waiting for you to chime in on Tommy related to that quote.

This is just an uninformed opinion but BP and other outlets reported a rift between two factions in the Dodger front office. One faction wanted the team to stay the course with the kids and the other wanted to trade the kids to bolster the run for the playoffs. Remember at the time the Dodgers were in 1st place but the kids faction won out. I'm going to guess that Tommy was on the trade side and at least Logan was on the kid side. I really don't have a clue about which side Ned or Kim would fall on. The facts are that the kids played well but the team still fell out of contention. Given how our esteemed owners overreact, is it possible that they are blaming the kid faction for the Dodger failure to reach the playoffs and have decided to purge those responsible? Not to mention they might be piqued that Kim and Logan both tried to find jobs outside of the organization. If there really is a reorganization, I'd be betting that whoever backed staying the course will be unemployed by Nov 1st. The McCourts need to make the playoffs, and when they had to credit all that playoff money back to the season ticket holders it made them Boston Massacre crazy. Combined with the team that the McCourts really wanted to own winning it's 2nd world series since they bought the Dodgers, their angst must be at epidemic levels.

2007-10-30 09:17:38
581.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Someone over at BBTF just made reference to the evil whisperings of a "Lasorda Wormtongue."
That name fits perfectly.
2007-10-30 09:23:02
582.   Andrew Shimmin
I don't hate Tommy. I just don't like him. At all. He's terrible.
2007-10-30 09:24:03
583.   RELX
Why would be the basis for Ng and especially White, to get the axe? White's job is to develop young players, which he has more than ably done. Whether the roster of veterans and youth meshes together, how trades work out, etc., has nothing to do with him. Simply put, he does one job, and does it well. Firing him would be like a company firing the head of IT because the company's stock price went down.
2007-10-30 09:25:38
584.   fanerman
583 Yeah, but it's the Dodgers. And it's Lasorda.
2007-10-30 09:26:42
585.   CajunDodger
572
That is interesting. If that is the case, then they need to ask Peter Angelos how he became so successful at running the Orioles. Resenting someone because of possibly flirting with career advancement is just petty.

I don't get what Colletti did to deserve the Dodger job more than Ng. Both served under good "baseball guys" (Sabean and Cashman). Both were involved heavily in contract negotiations, and both were relatively seasoned.

I just don't get the McCourts...

2007-10-30 09:26:57
586.   Bob Timmermann
I think we are all awaiting a comment along the lines of:

--------------

2007-10-30 09:27:10
587.   ToyCannon
Our owners are becoming like George except they don't have his money or championships, just his ability to overreact to every situation.
Of course I'm overreacting to a story that hasn't even happened yet. Who cares if reality gets in the way of a good line.
2007-10-30 09:27:38
588.   blue22
583 - Maybe they'd bring in a "big name" like Walt Jocketty. I can't think of any big time GM candidates out there right now.

I really hope there's a Torre/Ng connection from her time with the Yankees.

2007-10-30 09:28:10
589.   Jonny6
I'm writing this quickly because I have a sneaking suspicion that I am going to get LAT'ed.

I'm rather indifferent to the Torre-Little shakeup. I enjoyed Little's post-game soundbites, questioned his line-ups, and agonized over his occasional questionable decisions. I have no delusion that Torre is the panacea to the Dodger's problems, but I also don't see how it can hurt us. I keep coming back to Torre dropping the best baseball player in the world down into the 7th slot during last year's playoffs as an argument in favor of Torre. I don't even think that it was a good idea, but I think the gall it takes to make that decision bodes well for some of our issues, such as tiptoeing around Pierre's consecutive game streak and propping up the myth that Kent is a decent teammate. At least with Torre, I think everyone will know who is in charge and we won't have a bunch of chiefs attempting to run the clubhouse and a lack of indians willing to concentrate on the game on the field (is that too un-PC these days?).

If Torre does get hired, the one thing that we should be spared for the remainder of McCourt's days as the owner, is the usual blather about integrity and loyalty and other platitudes that are often spoken and rarely practiced. But of course, we won't. Within months, we will be patronized with another press conference extolling the virtues of our most recent signee, as if we are all a bunch of amnesiac morons who have already forgotten management's double-speak, backstabbing hiring practices.

2007-10-30 09:28:13
590.   fanerman
549 I really don't think Joe Torre is a much better manager than Grady Little. I'm upset because the organization lacks stability. McCourt is like some French revolutionary yelling "off with his head!" every time the Dodgers lose a game, miss the playoffs, make a mistake, anything. It's just a horrible signal to send.
2007-10-30 09:30:25
591.   ToyCannon
585
One worked for the Dodgers and the other worked for someone other then the Dodgers. The McCourts seem to prefer hiring those who don't work for the Dodgers instead of promoting those that do.
2007-10-30 09:30:31
592.   Bob Timmermann
In other news, the 2014 World Cup will be held in Brazil. Nobody else applied for the gig.

Penarol1916 is getting ready for another Uruguayan victory in Brazil.

2007-10-30 09:30:39
593.   fanerman
I officially hate this time of year. Yesterday I didn't, but today, I do.
2007-10-30 09:31:16
594.   wireroom
I don't think Tommy has as much influence on transactions as people think. I mean the guy takes naps during ballgames. He is there to fire people up do his thing. I think that is the extent of his power anymore.
I am disappointed that it looks like Grady is gone. I thought he did a good job. Torre won't make much of a difference with this club because they aren't nearly as loaded as the Yankees. They got a good young ball club with a lot of pitching staff issues.
2007-10-30 09:31:43
595.   blue22
590 - But I do like Torre better than Little, all things basically equal. And if this is the lure to bring ARod over, then I'm for it. Torre manages for 2-3 years, and passes the team to Mattingly.

And I am totally getting a Mattingly Dodger jersey. And I am totally wearing it next time I go to Yankee Stadium.

2007-10-30 09:32:31
596.   CajunDodger
591
I did not want to say that out loud, but their resumes are so similar, that is the only thing that I can come up with.

Who cares about Jocketty (sp?)? Fire Colletti and give us Ng.

2007-10-30 09:33:03
597.   Bob Timmermann
Interview with the Trinity University play by play announcer who called the 15-lateral play:

http://tinyurl.com/2m3uks

2007-10-30 09:33:11
598.   Kevin Lewis
580

If that scenario plays out, than I will no longer be a fan of the Dodgers while the McCourts are in charge.

2007-10-30 09:34:13
599.   CajunDodger
595
That would be pretty cool if Mattingly was our manager in 2011 when Preston was called up.
2007-10-30 09:35:42
600.   fanerman
595 I think Torre is probably better, but not THAT much better.

594 He is there to fire people...

Sorry, that part kind of jumped out at me. I have no faith in Lasorda in the front office ever since K4S.

Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2007-10-30 09:38:38
601.   blue22
600 - How much better does he need to be? It stinks that McCourt has such an itchy trigger finger, but the Torre move could bring ARod, and it could spell the end for Ned. Winner!

Of course, it could spell the end of the youth movement too, but I choose not to consider that.

2007-10-30 09:41:14
602.   ToyCannon
599
Why would you want Donny Baseball to be the DODGER manager?
2007-10-30 09:42:20
603.   paranoidandroid
This is a re-post of sorts from yesterday, but I emphasize that if A-Rod comes because Torre and company are hired, then it is worth all the fallout in my humble opinion.

A-Rod solves a lot of issues for us as far as offense goes. And he puts Nomar on the bench.

If it takes Torre to get that done, then do it. And maybe Frank is upset that Ned won't deal with Boras. Maybe that is a demand Boras is making, get me someone else to deal with. Again, being as shortsighted as I intend to be on this issue, Ned can be a fall guy too if it means we get A-Rod.

A-Rod and Kemp in the same line-up. I'm drooling on my desk right now.

2007-10-30 09:42:29
604.   Jon Weisman
Two-minute warning.
2007-10-30 09:47:03
605.   fanerman
601 I have nothing against Joe Torre and I probably would be happy if he came to manage the Dodgers. It's the organizational philosophy that bothers me.

Bringing in Torre means we change managers again. So who would Torre get fired for? LaRussa if he becomes available? Bobby Cox if he becomes available?

I'd be THRILLED if Ned got fired. But that probably means that his replacement will get fired within a couple years, too.

Constantly making these changes makes them sound desperate to win now. Good ideas take time to pan out, and McCourt isn't giving anybody time for one.

On the other hand, it'd be nice to just fire Juan Pierre. But if they could do that, they'd probably fire Andy LaRoche, too.

2007-10-30 09:47:42
606.   Bob Timmermann
604
No one can advance a fumbled comment now, unless it's their own.
2007-10-30 09:47:48
607.   wireroom
600 my phrasing didn't come off quite right. Another sad day for me as far as the Dodgers go.
2007-10-30 09:48:23
608.   paranoidandroid
ToyCannon: Did you see my post from last night regarding Clipper games?
2007-10-30 09:48:53
609.   fanerman
If getting Torre means getting A-Rod, losing Ned, promoting Ng, keeping White, and sticking with the kids... it'd be worth it.
2007-10-30 09:49:01
610.   Greg Brock
And here come the pretzels!
2007-10-30 09:49:06
611.   paranoidandroid
SI.com reporting Girardi accepted terms from Yanks.
2007-10-30 09:51:15
612.   Bob Timmermann
The two-minute warning means that all comments will be reviewed by the booth.

No challenges by the coaches!

2007-10-30 09:52:12
613.   LAT
604. Do I post or do I wait? If I post it could be trouble if I waut it could be double.
2007-10-30 09:53:07
614.   blue22
602 - I don't want Mattingly right now. Maybe a few years from now, but I hope he's not the move if Torre declines the offer.
2007-10-30 09:53:49
615.   LAT
609. That would be worth it even if we didn't get Torre.
2007-10-30 09:54:53
616.   Bob Timmermann
Each comment is like playing a small version of Chicken with so little at stake.
2007-10-30 09:54:59
617.   fanerman
615 Yeah I know. Just saying what my current stance is.
2007-10-30 09:56:02
618.   Terry A
Have I ever been LAT'ed? I do not believe so.

Perhaps today.

2007-10-30 09:56:26
619.   paranoidandroid
NPUT is coming very soon... and A-Rod in Dodger Blue to follow!!!!
2007-10-30 09:56:45
620.   LAT
These warning are going to make me obsoete.
2007-10-30 09:57:34
621.   Bob Timmermann
Jon is borrowing the old civil defense sirens for his warnings.
2007-10-30 09:57:45
622.   ToyCannon
I don't see the connection between Torre and Arod. Maybe I'm blind but it seems that money is going to be the issue not who the manager is.
I haven't been Lat'd in a while, make it so.
2007-10-30 09:58:33
623.   fanerman
619 Don't get any big ideas. They're not gonna happen.

I just don't like to get ahead of myself.

2007-10-30 09:58:35
624.   Daniel Zappala
I like the cat sirens used in The Nightmare Before Christmas, an eminently watchable movie. Danny Elfman and Tim Burton are a perfect combination.
2007-10-30 09:58:36
625.   ToyCannon
608
Yes, I've got lots of games, I'll let you know.
2007-10-30 09:58:44
626.   Ken Noe
I was LAT'd, what, three days ago. I feel lucky. Unlike Scott Proctor.
2007-10-30 09:58:54
627.   Terry A
These are the longest two minutes since my honeymoon.

Or something.

2007-10-30 09:58:58
628.   Jon Weisman
Now out of timeouts.
2007-10-30 09:59:09
629.   paranoidandroid
622 No logic to the A-Rod and Torre connection. Just blind hope.
2007-10-30 09:59:12
630.   ToyCannon
Playing in 3D in Hollywood at this moment.
2007-10-30 09:59:45
631.   LAT
0:00
2007-10-30 10:00:08
632.   ToyCannon
Jon is like a cat playing with a mouse. Who knew he could be so cruel.
2007-10-30 10:00:45
633.   fanerman
622 Me neither.

Maybe getting Torre means we get Mariano and some catcher from NY*. Those 2 guys are why A-Rod opted out, right? Right?

*I'm sorry Golden God. I did not mean to offend. Just stating hypotheticals. What should my penance be?

2007-10-30 10:02:00
634.   Daniel Zappala
633 Three renditions of Take Me Out To the Ballgame and two weeks carrying Martin's equipment.
2007-10-30 10:03:20
635.   Jon Weisman
Isn't this the drama that makes football such a compelling game? Stretching out two minutes over 20?

The final gun has sounded!

2007-10-30 10:26:56
636.   dzzrtRatt
And the band is coming on the field!

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