Amazing Jon was able to research and write that up in about 10 mins :-)

First instead of last. Its a mad mad mad world I tell ya!

I have a positive knack for getting LATed.

Am I posting on some fake mirage that only I can see and everyone else is at the real DT?

I believe Howard was closest in the NPUT over/under silly contest. vr, Xei

4 Some of us actually read the post :)

I got LAT'd too.

Not much I can disagree with, far as the post.

---

Going back to the last thread, I was wondering about that A's catcher... and his projections

.251/.328/.424

Those numbers don't seem that impressive to me. I'm new to this still... is that

.251 avg
.328 obp
.424 slg?

I suppose that is pretty good if he is just starting out.

Reflecting upon this, I see a great deal of similarity between Torre and Little. Not complete similarity, but I'm not sure there's enough difference to be significant

And certainly not enough to warrant a salary six times a high.

7 The average catcher hit .256/.318/.394 last year. You tend to be happy your backup catcher knows what a bat is.

5 and for that, I am ecstatic

9 And he'd probably dirt cheap, wouldn't he?

If he keeps the pitch counts low, that's great. And we have enough quality relief...I doubt he'll replicate his reliance on one guy.

But who cares? This smacks of lipstick on a pig. Now fix what's really important, Ned.

9 Why are we talking about a backup catcher? But I will say this, Joe will probably rest Russell more often than Grady.

Question: Is there someone else "we" would have preferred as our manager, among available candidates...?

6. Read the post? Cheating was the only way I could get the first post. I did go back and read it and it was a really good article. Nice job JW.

(I think I'll call him JW from now on. It conjurs up a guy with a pipe and a smoking jacket. I bet his buddies called him JW in high school.)

11 Quite so, he has 10 career at bats.

12 Yeah, but its a pretty big deal for the non-DT world.

Well, to be honest, there isn't a ton to fix... a lot of the best pieces are in place. The "fix" is to "not fix," know what I mean?

Keeping Nomar and Pierre's damage to a minimum will help.

12. This smacks of lipstick on a pig.

Ha ha. You kill me.

14 It doesn't really make a difference to me. I would have stuck with Grady.

9 It caught my eye.

14 No. I'd say more but I'm busy.

really nice read & break down on our new skipper.

13 It's Dodger Thoughts. We'd rather talk about backup catchers than work.

14 I'd have preferred Girardi.

Just got the email note about Torre's hire.

Nothing gets by dodgers.com

Way to throw cold water on our euphoric afternoon, JW. Ba-humbug.

22 Agreed. Very nice analysis, and stuff I'd like to know heading in.

How happy do you think Scott Proctor is about this new hire? Happy to see a familiar face, or unhappy that he's in for another 100-inning season?

Anyway, that always "ground my gears" about Grady, too. Many a time would I sit at home and ask myself why Wolf/Lowe/Penny, etc. was batting when his pitch count had broken three digits.

Thanks for the article.

the Veterans vs. rookies piece got me pretty pumped up, I hope it's true.

Davey Johnson (ironically enough) has been described as having the qualities "we" look for. He's believed to be good with young pitchers (that Mets team was stacked) and fairly conservative on in-game strategy.

Any word who will be on the coaching staff?

Good luck, Dodger fans.

Be prepared for 12 pitchers in the roster. The astonishing thing would be, out of those 12, Torre would only use 4 of them, and two of them would just be benchwarmers. Scott Proctor has probably got up in the bullpen as part of a Pavlovian reflex action.

And you will find out that if your promising rookie pitcher walks a couple of people in a game, he is forever banished, no matter his minor league records before and after the said debacle.

Also, if some of your young hitters strike out a ton, then they are in trouble. Within the first five games, it is advisable to keep strikeouts to less than 2 in any given game. The only one that got away with striking out a lot was Alfonso Soriano, because he had a lot of speed.

That should have read "promising rookie relief pitcher"

McCourt is a fickle, self-aggrandizing jerk. Yes.

But that shouldn't dampen enthusiasm about this change. Grady was an asbolutely terrible in-game manager. And Torre's input on baseball ops decisions is likely to be a positive development if it means less decisionmaking power for Ned.

I'm still not convinced that this team will make the playoffs, but Torre sure as heck won't hurt. He's taken the Yanks to the playoffs 12 years in a row - that's impressive no matter how you slice it.

31
Little used Proctor even more than Torre did.

We used Broxton a lot already, so overusing middle relief is something we are used to.

I am already getting scared for the youth. We basically have to give Torre no alternative.

Torre's been the manager for about fifteen minutes, and the Scott Proctor jokes are already hackneyed.

Note to Yankees fans (again): Your bullpen, pre-Joba, was terrible. Garbage. Hence, the reliance on one pitcher. We do not have this problem like you have on your team. I don't know who told you we have this. We do not.

9 The question isn't whether Jeremy Brown knows what a bat is. He does. It's whether he knows what a glove is. I don't think there's anyone in the A's organization who really trusts him behind the plate for any period of time beyond an emergency.

The A's seem to have some old-fashioned notions about what makes a good catcher. Judging from their actions since Billy Beane took over, they seem to believe that pitch-calling and pitch-blocking are more important skills than hitting for a catcher, even though there are no published statistical reports that I've ever heard that indicate that either of those skills make much difference.

I'm really not sure about this. It was a stretch for me to go along with a former Giant taking over as GM. Now we are getting a manager and coaches from the Yankees. This is some really bad baseball karma for the Bums.

On a more serious note... it's good to know he'll give the young players a lot of rope, if they can get the jobs (and the prayer to the Baseball Gods in re no more PVL begins). I'm a little concerned about his potential handling of the pitching staff. And as much as I like the speed game, I'm suddenly worried that Pierre is going to be either leading off or batting second all year.

He's taken the Yanks to the playoffs 12 years in a row - that's impressive no matter how you slice it

It might be impressive for a team to make the playoffs 12 years in a row, but I attribute that to the players, not the manager. It's not like he guided a bunch of scrubs to the promised land.

We used Broxton a lot already, so overusing middle relief is something we are used to.

& lets not forget Broxton had some ARM ISSUES because of it, that's the only thing I'm worried aboot.

33 - Little apparently had the same input Torre will have.

I'm not going to try to support or attack Little as an in-game manager, but I'm confident there will be complaints about Torre as well. I'm not saying that to be Scrooge. It just seems like the way of the world.

36 True, but when the second best catcher in the organization that isn't just a journeyman is in high A, Jeremy Brown would be a huge boon.

At least we went up on the PIL meter.

Proven
Italian
Leadership

36 - pitch-calling by a catcher is very important, if he's the one making the call (as opposed to the manager)... it is a huge factor in his team's defense and the other teams offense. Pitch-blocking is important in that passed balls allow runners to move up (or score if already on third), remember it's always easier to score from third than it is second, and from second than it is first.

I'll be honest, this is one of those things that I don't think you need "published statistical reports" to understand. But I'm a contrarian like that.

38 So you're saying Mr. Burns isn't the tactical genius I thought he was.

My biggest problem with Little would be when he let a pitcher bat and then let him face only one or two more batters

In Little's defense I remember a few of those times. I agree it is annoying when that happens, but sometimes a pitcher is pulled because he gave up 2-3 hits/walks in a row and there was no way to know that was going to happen. It's not like he let the pitcher bat, then the pitcher retired the first two batters and he was pulled. Clint Hurdle is the guy who is famous for this. He would let the pitcher hit, then not even let him start the next inning.

I don't think there is much difference between the average MLB manager minus the likes of Jim Tracy and Dusty Baker. They each have some minor flaws and each have some strengths, evening things out in the long run. Where I see the difference may be in leadership and public relations type skills. It could be true that Torre is a better manager than Little, I really have no way of quantifying it one way or the other. Where I think one can make a difference is in the GM position. That's where the most damage/improvement to a team is usually done at.

vr, Xei

40

It's true. No matter who anybody has as manager, there will always be nitpicking, complaints, etc.

43 It's just that published statistical reports can't find any value in these skills, and it's not for lack of trying. I'm sure they mean something, but what the pitcher actually does probably far outweighs it to the point where it's no longer noticable.

42 My employer is wondering why I'm cackling.

38 - That's valid in the last 5 years or so, but what about the late 90's Yankees. Good pitching, great pen, but the everyday lineup doesn't look like terribly intimidating. The Yankees didn't become the "Evil Empire" until the Giambi signing.

42 Ratt brought that up yesterday. It's getting awfully Italian up in this piece.

If Girardi was really the first choice, why didn't we offer him 4 million/year? I reckon we would have signed him had we offered that much. It seems silly to lose out on your first choice because another team offered more money, then spend more money than the other team offered on your second choice.

Conference call at 4:00, same available outlets (KSPN 710 online).

Probably will just have Ned on the line, expect Simers to badger him on when he started talking to Torre and was it before Grady retired?

What an unrelentingly negative bunch. I can understand the cynicism, but jeez....

Welcome Joe, and good luck!

47 - right, I think. My point is only that when a catcher actually gets to call a game (and that's a rare thing these days), he's the one making the decision on fastball/curveball, as well as location. Whether or not the pitcher can execute on that call is obviously incredibly important. As an example: the catcher calls for a fastball out and the pitcher throws a change up (or just a fastball without much on it) in against a pull hitter, you're going to have some major problems.

I wish Torre would tell Pierre to drop & give him 20 if he rolls an out to 1st or pops up, I really do!!

51 That would have made Girardi the highest paid manager in the game with only one year's experience. Even at $2.5M he would have been among the highest paid managers.

55 - I see more a situation like in Major League, where Pierre's going to be doing push ups everytime he hits the ball in the air. I half expect him to drop and do push ups the first time he hits a flyball in spring training.

Alright, let's see if the Dodgers learned anything from their debacle of a conference call on Tuesday.

35 Agreed on the terrible bullpen of Yankees pre-Joba. That still does not explain the insistence on 12 pitchers, and using only 9-10 of them on a regular basis. Even a 4-5 run lead normally was protected with proven veterans than the rookie call-up.

I will spare you Scott Proctor jokes. But as a Dodger fan, you are aware of Paul Quantrill, I suppose. He didn't suffer a very good fate in 2005, I must say, and the primary reason was Joe Torre.

58

I'm tunned in...

No matter what a manager is going to make bad in game decisions. What you hope for is a guy who minimizes that and can spark the team in whatever way he can. Remember when Phil Garner took over the Astros a few years ago midseason and then got them to the series?
My hope is that Torre gets some of these kids to really play a more consistent all around game. If that happens, they have a pretty goo team.

61 *good

59

we have a couple of good ones (a couple of good rooks too):

Meloan
McDonald (out side shot)
Brazoban
________________________

established relievers:

Beimel/Proctor
Broxton
Saito
_________________________

I hope he uses all of them accordingly, some of the Rookies have great track records in the minors.

53 - "What an unrelentingly negative bunch"

I don't agree with that characterization. Plenty of people here have offered the upside on Torre. If some don't think he's the second coming, I think that's fair considering the overwhelming praise he's getting elsewhere.

In any case, I wish him good luck too.

In honor of our new manager, below is my Steve Lyons like attempt at Italian humor. Jon, if this is not the place for this feel free to delete it.

An Italian workman wants a job, but the foreman won't hire him until he passes a little math test "Here's your first question," the foreman said.

"Without using numbers, represent the number 9."

"Without numbers?" the Italian says, "Datsa easy." and he proceeds to draw three trees.

"What's this?" the boss asks.

"Ave you got no brain? Tree and tree and tree make a nine," says the Italian.

"Fair enough," says the boss. "Here's your second question. Use the same rules, but this time the number is 99."

The Italian stares into space for a while, then picks up the picture that he has just drawn and makes a smudge on each tree . "Ere you go."

The boss scratches his head and says, "How on earth do you get that to represent 99?"

"Each of da trees is a dirty now. So, it's dirty tree, and dirty tree, and dirty tree. Datsa a 99."

The boss is getting worried so he says, "All right, last question. Same rules again, but represent the number 100."

The Italian stares into space some more, then he picks up the picture again and makes a little mark at the base of each tree and says, "Ere you go. One hundred."

The boss looks at the attempt. "You must be nuts if you think that represents a hundred!"

(You're going to love this one!)

The Italian leans forward and points to the marks at the base of each tree and says, "A little doga come along and poopa by eacha tree. So now you gota dirty tree and a turd, dirty tree and a turd, and dirty tree and a turd, data makea one hundred. So, whenna I start?"

62 - Either way :)

65 - I think I would just have substituted Brooklyn or Queens or whatever the appropriate neighborhood is, instead of making it Italian.

Having watched Torre at close range for 12 years from my New York vantage, I have fewer reservations regarding his taking over the Dodgers than I think most of you do here. Yes, he has his foibles, but he's also shown himself to be more adaptable than commonly given credit for. He handled the in-season integration of Robinson Cano and Melky Cabrera into the lineups pretty well, and particularly this past year, showed that he wasn't afraid to bench expensive, gimpy and ineffective veterans like Johnny Damon and Jason Giambi. Yet he was also able to quell any major clubhouse dissent over those moves, which is pretty impressive.

A few other things to add:

* He's done an outstanding job managing Jorge Posada's heavy workload, keeping him effective all year long -- there's virtually no difference between Posada's first- and second-half splits careerwise, and his September numbers have historically been strong. Granted, he won't have the DH to help Russell Martin out in the same way, but Torre was a catcher, and he understood the workload.

* Right now the Dodgers already have a deeper bullpen than the Yankees have had the last few years. In Broxton, Proctor, and Beimel, the Dodgers have three capable setup men, and that's not to say they won't be even deeper. Torre hasn't had more than one good righty setup at any one time in awhile, and his recent lefty relievers have primarily been LOOGYs or mop-and-bucket guys. Beimel is more of a Mike Stanton type, capable of pitching full innings without worrying unduly about platoon matchups.

* Anyone pointing to Torre's lack of success in his pre-NYY days would do well to remind themselves that this Dodger club has far more to work with than some of those teams did, particularly in the rotation.

* Whatever the expectations are in LA with the ink still drying on Torre's contract, they're lower and more reasonable than they were in New York. Torre will do a good job of keeping the pressure off his guys by deflecting it towards himself, and this is a guy who can stand more heat than just about any manager I've ever seen. He'll demand accountability for the kind of BS that's gone on around problem children like Jeff Kent over the past few years, and I think he'll find his way through this mix of veterans and youngsters better than Little did last year.

I read in an article the other day, which I cannot now find, a quote by Lowe which echoed some of his sentiments from the end of last year, that he'd be pleased if they signed Torre because that meant they would 'go out and get players'. He said there's no way they'd sign Torre and not go and get players.

He said as much at the end of last season, that the Dodgers needed players to win now. It worries me that Lowe think the team can be made significantly better by signing such free agents as are available.

so far I give this conference call a 10.

47 See Chan Ho Park and Chad Kreuter. ;-)

Commentary: Colletti gets to hire identity with skipper

>> Torre is personable yet shrewd. He is a mayor more than a manager, working to unite his people for one common quest. He is also smart and selfless enough to do something Little rarely did: put baseball people in place to help him run games. <<

## Torre began having more success when he had players who ran games for him on the field. It began with his first Yankee catcher, Joe Girardi, and then became the exclusive domain of Jorge Posada and Derek Jeter.

Now that responsibility falls directly on Russell Martin. ##

http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/articles/10937036.html

I think the Dodgers treated Grady Little badly in the end, but I'm not surprised. Frank McCourt has as much class as a loud belch.

But Little ultimately didn't do THAT good a job. Yes, success on the field would have reduced carping off of the field, but Little's incredibly laid-back approach let it go on too long, and that's the manager's job. To use Casey Stengel's line, each team has five guys who love the manager, five guys who think he's all right, five who don't care either way, five who hate him and five who are trying to make up their minds. The manager's job, he said, is to try to keep the five who hate him away from the five who are trying to decide. That doesn't quite cover what happened last season, but in terms of handling his men, Little failed.

Nor was Little consistent as a strategist or in making out his lineup. If Torre does stick with kids, it will be a major difference. Little seemed to have the attitude, "Oh, it's Tuesday, time for Kemp to replace Gonzales," not, "Kemp (or Gonzales) is really hitting, keep the hot hand and sit someone who isn't hitting." That's my impression, anyway.

None of this is to say that Torre is all that much better. But he will be in a position of strength that Little lacked. Not to view Lasorda's as halcyon days--the media references to the lack of Dodger playoff victories since he left don't take into account that he didn't go anywhere after 1988 and screwed up royally at times--but while McCourt lacks O'Malleyesque stability, Torre, like Lasorda, can manage with the idea that he won't lose his job tomorrow over something and that distinguishes him from Little.

See now all this time I thought we were talking about Torrey Lovullo.

Joe Torre is just the 30th different manager in Dodgers franchise history dating back to 1884.

Three managers accounted for 61 seasons: Wilbert Robinson, Walter Alston, and Tommy Lasorda.

Alston and Lasorda shared the 1976 season.

Just where is Joe Torre right now?

Travelling from New York?

Is he here in Los Angeles?

I'm guessing they'll be a formal press conference at the Stadium introducing him tomorrow.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/01/bc.bbm.a.rod.mudhens.ap/

lol

put baseball people in place to help him run games

Blech.

76. I thought I read somewhere that he'd be here on Monday at 10am, live on 710 ESPN your local sports leader.
vr, Xei

See now all this time I thought we were talking about Torrey Lovullo.

I haven't seen or heard anything about Torre's relationship with ARod. Anyone have a clue that this signing could put us closer to winning the ARod sweepstakes? You have to think that if they got along well in NY and you have deals on the table from the Angels and Dodgers that are similiar, that Torre would help to bring a clearer picture.

80 - I'm sorry I didn't validate it the first time with a LOL. But LOL!

Ned is talking about us being young and he is praising Martin, Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Bills, and Broxton.

76 - He had a previous weekend commitment I think. His press conference is Monday.

My prediction? Joe Torre, in the interest of flipping Steinbrenner the most flagrant bird possible, will lead us to a WS win next year.

Oops.

Anyhow, can't say that I find hiring a manager based on famousness that compelling, but good luck Mr. Torre.

Ned Colletti is on his A-Game today. He doesn't wanna talk about A-Rod though.

75 - I take it you aren't counting Hoffman and Griffin as interim managers? Or Ray Blades?

First impression is, at the very least, he's more interesting than Grady Little, who always struck me as rather generic. If it's a question of Torre v. Little, I'd say Torre. If there was a better alternative available, who was he?

Second impression, can his talent evaluation be any less good than Colletti's? Or am I just being naive?

Re 69: How much weight in personnel decisions do you suppose they're giving overpaid pitchers in the last year of their contracts who will be even more overpaid in the dog end of their careers in their next contract, with whoever's silly enough to sign them? A how-stupid-are-they question, I know.

Ned basically hinted we will at least try with A-Rod, but who knows how hard.

86 - worked for the Lakers when they hired Phil the first time...

89 - Plus Lowe is, how should I put this, dumb.

91. They can thank the Portland Trailblazers for that. :)
vr, Xei

91
Coaches mean more in basketball than they do in baseball and Phil brought a whole lot more than Kurt Rambis to the table.

A-Rod has said all the right things about enjoying playing for Torre, but the fact is that Torre threw him under the bus in 2006, first with his comments to Verducci for that SI hackjob, then with the batting eighth thing.

If anything, I think this decreases the likelihood of him signing with LA, but not as much as the fact that Colletti's dealings with Boras over Drew and Gagne were so awful that the Dodgers never really got a shot to bring back Maddux, and the fact that McCourt is a cheapskate who can't afford the operating losses that a $30m/year contract will create even as it raises the long-term value of the franchise via media revenues and other ancillary benefits.

When did you first have contact with Joe Toree?
Ned: uh, uhh, uhhh, four days ago.

vr, Xei

Actually I see a lot of similarities between the Del Harris-to-Phil Jackson transition and this Grady-to-Torre deal. Let's see if the results are similar.

Someone asked did Ned meet Joe at an Italian restaraunt.

*restaurant

A friend thinks that Joe Torre could be the Dodgers Rudy Tomjonavich.

94 - It wasn't Del Harris to Phil? When did Del Harris get canned?

Boras isn't exactly a CLASSY GUY either, if anything I'm glad NedCo deals with Boras the way he does, that's one thing I really really like about Ned.

Q: Torre will be making roughly six times as much as Little. Is there anything in particular you expect Torre to do six times as well?

98

oh man, LOL!!

101
Mid-season and Kurt Rambis took over.

Well it's good to know Joe Torre loves SoCal...

101 - Del Harris got canned just as the lockout season started, Rambis was hired as in interim and had the Lakers poised to win the Championship, then Eddie Jones was traded and San Antonio won and Phil Jackson was hired.

59 quantrill hurt his knee during the season opening series in japan and altered his mechanics to pitch with it rather than undergoing surgery which worked short-term, but was a crappy long term decision ... i'd apportion blame rather equally between quantrill, the club and joe for what happened

105 - Ah, thanks. I was close.

100
So we are going to re-hire Grady?

Joe Torre use to be the Angels (KTLA-5) TV color announcer. Did a great job too. Would be nice for him to fill in for the Dodgers crew, perhaps doing an inning or two from the dugout.
vr, Xei

100 - I assume you don't mean he'll be punched in the face by a player who was otherwise thought of as a complete gentleman.

110 - no, we'll rehire Tracy

111 - This has come up almost daily, and I support it. Torre in the Dodger booth would have excited me.

98
The Italian restaurant question was totally tongue-in-cheek. Came as a follow-up from the same guy that backed him into changing his "When did you start talks with Torre" answer.

It is pretty obvious that LA radio personalities have no clue about Andy LaRoche.

65 and 67 put me in mind for the "Brooklyn or Queens" recipe for an omelet: "First, steal an egg . . ."

I can say that because I'm an Italian born in Queens. Not that being Italian has anything to do with it.

116 - Well, to be fair, he didn't come up and hit .340 right away. That's considered a failure for Dodger kids. You gotta kick that door down!

118 Yeah, because the PVL's are trying to keep it up from the other side.

Listening to Mason & Ireland and the Kamenetzky bros. One of the Kamenetsky's refers to a huge hole at 3B and that AROD would not affect the youth movement by blocking anyone. Someone needs to let Andy LaRoche know he does not exist.

Yesterday I was talking to someone in NJ who is a long time and very knowledgeable Yankee fan. She posited that Torre wanted to come to the Dodgers because Steinbrenner still views the Yankee/Dodger rivalry as the only one that counts because it was for the WS, as opposed to the AL East title. In addition, George views his finest hour as building the Reggie Jackson team that beat the pants off the Dodgers. Thus, coming to the Dodgers is about the biggest revenge Joe could take on George. Maybe accurate, maybe not, but I'm willing to run with it.

116 Yeah- what he said.

121
I did not realize that the Steinbrenner Yankees beat the pants off the Dodgers by winning 2 of 3 World Series matchups.

All of which lasted six games.

And there hasn't been a Dodgers-Yankees World Series since I was 15 years old.

122 I'm glad the motto for True Blue LA is still "A Place To Talk About Andy LaRoche And The Dodgers."

re 89, I don't think they give any weight to his views. I have never been a professional athlete, so I do not know how different the dynamics are to amateur sport. But I know that in the latter, if people are not playing for each other, and think that there are people who should be there but are not, then that extra effort that makes the difference is missing from player's performance.

I know people talk about pro athletes playing for themselves, but when I look at the good teams of late, they've been playing for each other not themselves. at least for that season, and at least it appears that way.

AROD 1995:
.232/.264/.408
42K, 6BB (142 AB)

If only we had a chance to see what kind of reception he'd have gotten in LA with that line.

#$@%&

I leave for a meeting and I miss an entire press conference. Work is really starting to interfere with my life...

Does anyone know where I can find the audio from the conference call?

127 570klac.com

128 That's where I've found past media interviews with Ned. It may or may not be there.

128
Not there yet, but hopefully they will podcast it.

Thanks.

127 - Rule 1.

76. Torre was in New York this afternoon doing a benefit. I heard him interviewed around 2:00 EST on WFAN.

131
Sorry

I will keep my fingers off of the shift+# keys from now on...

the interview is on MLB.com now

President Tom LaSorda was quoted in the news today. He explained, "We have to move now to adjust the way our company looks and acts to reflect a smaller market."

Of course I'm talking about the President of Chrysler, who today announced plans to lay off thousands of jobs and cut four models.

135 Of course I'm talking about the President of Chrysler, who today announced plans to lay off thousands of jobs and cut four models.

But how will they ever land any more photo shoots if they're all scarred up?

136
And do they really want to upset William Munny...?

135 "We have to move now to adjust the way our company looks and acts to reflect a smaller market."

LOL! I was afraid Tommy had been reading too much DodgerThoughts.

Joe has to be getting up there in age. I remember him playing when I was a kid. His health has not been the best either.

This is not a move I would have made if I owned the Dodgers, but then again I would not have hired Grady in the first place. As much as I disliked the Fox Dodgers, keeping Bob Daily and Dan Evans in place would have been far better than the turmoil of the past few years.

Stan from Tacoma

139
So we should expect Joe Torre to do a commercial along the line of Lasorda's.

"I don't get cancer in my prostate. I give prostate cancer to others!"

"I have a delicious shake for breakfast, one for lunch, and then a sensible dinner"

Joe Torre was sold on Los Angeles because of its large supply of green tea.

Gary Sheffield dissed Torre after leaving the Yankees. Another positive in Joe's favor.

The more I reflect on this, the more I am pleased with the outcome. The bottom line is, the situation with the Dodgers at the end of the season was a disaster, not because of the losses but the issues with the team not getting along. Grady as the manager has to be at least partially to blame. More importantly, if reports are true that he was beaten down and miserable, then he should not be the manager. I think you have to be tougher than that to survive managing a big league club. The fact that he couldn't handle Coletti's feedback and didn't speak to him for 3 weeks does not speak well to his personal abilities. The fact that he was even contemplating quitting means he should go. We need someone in charge, someone confident, and Torre can be that guy. A manager can not win games, but maybe he can prevent the kind of meltdown we were treated to this year.

137 Those weren't models.

Ya know, for as much as we hated Grady Little and complained about him staying on board, there sure is an awful lot of complaining all the sudden about getting rid of him. C'mon fickle fans.

talking about the subject on hand right now on ESPNNews. Tim Kurkijian says that Torre won't worry about LA media given he dealt with NY Media; that the Dodgers can win the division next year but need one big bat that scares people (there's a real new idea); he doesn't see the Dodgers being able to get A Rod; he does believe Mattingly and Bowa will come with him, that was one reason this took longer than expected, to negotiate their contracts, too; and that he does not see any Yankee players going to the Dodgers to join Torre (including Pettite). The Dodgers will have some money to deal with but free agent pool isn't very strong. They need to find way to improve team and they will. Says TK.

146 I never wanted to get rid of him, nor did a good amount of people on here.

And now Tommy Lasorda gushing on ESPNN, and I'm turning the channel with nausea...

I had no problem with keeping Little. I really hope Colletti doesn't do anything too stupid.

I didn't want to get rid of Grady at all, though I thought he made some managerial gaffes this season. But I thought management and injuries were more to blame for not making the playoffs this year. And I've said this often here.

I did

I will presume that Joe Torre will not say a whole lot between now and Monday, perhaps they will close deals with his coaches.

After reading Jon's post, I read this in the comments:
"Reflecting upon this, I see a great deal of similarity between Torre and Little. Not complete similarity, but I'm not sure there's enough difference to be significant

And certainly not enough to warrant a salary six times a high."

I have to disagree. If Torre can net the players we need to send us over the top, then of course he's worth the extra money. I think it's a safe bet to say players (particularly the free agents on the market that we should targer) want to play under Joe Torre. And a guy like Torre demads respect- which to me says the clubhouse explosion could not happen under Joe Torre. And if he truly brings Mattingly and Bowa over, he's worth every penny! Loney being coached by Donny Baseball? Give me a break! I welcome this move whole heartedly!

If Preston ever makes it, that would be neat to see that father/son thing.

Way to overanalyze the hire. Sometimes its an image or reputation that means more then anything. Torre brings this image and that is what LA needs. Its kind of like Tony LaRussa with the Cardinals.

The Dodgers should be comended for bringing a superstar manager to LA. Now they need that marquee free agent ie Arod and then this team gets more national attention like they did in the 70s when I was just learning to be a jealous but admiring Padres fan.

Sometimes these kind of additions cant be explained on paper, but you know your team is now better.

72 My goodness, that is some bad writin...

Torre's arrival signifies the end of McCourt's awkward transitional period. This is finally the hire General Manager Ned Colletti never had the opportunity to make when he first took the job. Little was a glorified interim manager, a stopgap with a stopwatch that was running the second he was hired.

Yay! No more awkwardness from McCourt! It's also good to know that Frank stopped telling Ned not to hire the manager he wanted.

Little was a bad actor who didn't realize that choppy monologues only work in this town if you're a dumb blonde, not if you're old and gray. He was the classic minor league manager over his head in the big leagues.... If you can't hold the media, there's no way you can hold a ballclub. The down-home demeanor was perfect for the Greenville Braves, not for the Los Angeles Dodgers.

So Little's interviews are what did him in.

The Dodgers think of themselves as crisp and efficient. The Dodgers, from the top down, think of themselves as East Coast elegance personified.

Eastern-most in Quality...

In his place comes Torre, who will find Los Angeles to be a highly superficial baseball town compared to New York. The atmosphere around Dodgers games can sometimes resemble B-movie sets, where ego and self-importance are everything.

Wait a minute. What happened to that East Coast elegance just last paragraph?

Managing in the National League is a different creature. It would be wise for Torre to continue his trend of employing sharp lieutenants, and he should hire one with recent NL experience. If he doesn't want to, the Dodgers need to hire one for him.

In other words, Torre's an idiot.

Players love a winner, because it makes them feel like one. They are almost universally followers. Torre has rings, which is important for a franchise that has forgotten how to finish what it started.

Besides the mangled sentences, he makes it sound like this is Lord of the Rings.

Torre is also a good fit for Colletti, who also likes older players. Now the Dodgers have to make the call and pick which 20-something players they really believe can play, and discard the rest. The answer is not in free agency. Alex Rodriguez would look nice, but don't bank on it. The Dodgers can sell out just as easily with Andy LaRoche playing third base.

Too many also's, plus if they like older players, why would they pick out the young ones they like. And what does sell out mean?

Casey Stengel has been dead for 32 years and even his accomplishments as Yankees manager are occasionally questioned because of the talent his teams had. You can argue that Torre only won with talent, but at some point, the manager's influence is felt.

Umm, what point exactly is that?

The reason is because no single player ever wants to be held accountable for something. The manager always wears it. For the Dodgers' immediate future, the Rolex is a better fit than the windbreaker.

What does this even mean?

Meh, then I guess it was only me. Frankly, Little was just wrong for the Dodgers. His managerial style didn't work, he wasn't a strong enough personality to put up with all the egos on the team. He didn't know how to manage the lineup and frankly I'm sick and tired of having to put up with his learning curve. He was a so-so minor league manager, got lucky in Boston then blew it, and couldn't find his groove in Los Angeles.

I think Torre is a great match for the Dodgers just as long as fans realize that they can't necessarily expect a championship next year. Give the guy a little time and have some faith. Colleti is the big prolem and Little was much weaker than Colleti. Torre is a stronger manager than Colleti is a general manager so I think we might actually see some legitimate baseball next season.

Marty loves the Daily Breeze.

Rolex and windbreaker?

Worst analogy EVER!

Someone here once recommended Alan Furst's between the wars spy novels, and I want to thank you. I read Night Soldiers and am now trying to find time to read Dark Star.

He's one of the writers where sentence after sentence you find yourself pausing just to marvel at the depth and precision of language and detail.

Marvelous stuff. Like the lady in the progressive auto insurance commercial, I feel compelled to pass on this wonderful find, so I urge others who enjoy that sort of thing to give Furst a try.

"one of those writers"

Furst is one of the really good ones. He's got his little niche and he doesn't stray from it, but damn, he's good at evoking a particular mood. You can practically smell the stale cigarettes and woolen overcoats drying over the radiator.

Sam, I don't think it was I who recommended Furst, but I recognize the name. The first time I saw "Dark Star" recommended was over at Brad DeLong's economics/politics blog. I always listen to former Deputy Ass't Sec'ys of Treasury (or some such title). ;)

The view from Boston (no never a Red Sox fan!):
I fear that the Dodgers are getting Torre after his best years. I don't think he'll have enough fuel in his tank and won't have half the available talent that he had with the Yankees.

However one big plus for Torre is that he is out of the New York pressure cooker where he was expected to deliver a world series team every season.

The perception on the east coast of the west coast, particularly in Boston and NYC, is that people don't take baseball as seriously as they do (you know start for the exits in the seventh inning, etc.). I can say that Red Sox fans take the sport as if it IS life or death, and Yankee fans are right behind them in this regard. You could of asked Grady about this fact... So perhaps Torre can gain a little breathing room.

Now my question as a "Nomah" fan is this: What are the implications for Nomar vz. Torre? Yes he is a veteran's manager, but as has been stated he is not afraid to bench a veteran if they are limping along for one reason or another.

New job, coast, challenges for Torre

>> On the plus side of the Dodgers equation, Torre will be working with a shrewd and diligent general manager, Ned Colletti. <<

http://tinyurl.com/3xzdkj

WOW! The World Series is ours.

165 - Read The Fine Article above.

166
He won four World Series with the Yankees. If none of those came after 2000, the fact that the Yankees each October found themselves facing somebody with much better pitching, indicated that the dry spell was hardly the manager's fault.

So, the four World Series where the Yankees found themselves facing somebody without much better pitching were hardly to the manager's credit...?

Regarding the "Torre's credibility will attract great players" meme:

How often do players base their team decisions upon the manager rather than upon the financial offer...?

Wow, great MLS playoff game tonight. 2-2 Chicago and DC, but DC is down 3-2 aggregate, and they're into stoppage time. DC scored a goal that was nullified because of a hand ball call. Great comeback by DC after being down 2-0. On ESPN.

In any case, Joe Torre deserved better than he received at the end of the day from the New York Yankees. He deserved to have a managing job, with a modicum of security and he has one, with a team rich in history and tradition

Emphasis on modicum.

Ben Platt has an on air interview with NedCo if anybody is interested (MLB.Com)

35 It has to be said, but we also don't have a bullpen that's bothered by some measly bugs. :-)

158. ... Frankly, Little was just wrong for the Dodgers. ... He was a so-so minor league manager ...

If you are going to impugn someone's reputation at least have the decency to do it accurately.

in 16 years managing in the minor leagues, compiled a record of 1,054-903 (.539)...on May 15, 1995, earned his 1,000th managerial win when Triple-A Richmond defeated Scranton Wilkes-Barre, 4-0...managed eight teams to the postseason during his minor league tenure, compiling a 22-15 (.595) record in postseason play...won league postseason titles with Hagerstown (1981), Pulaski (1986), Greenville (1992) and Richmond (1994)...had 12 teams post winning records during his minor league managing days the 1992 Double-A Greenville Braves compiled a gaudy record of 100-43 (.699) under his tutelage and ran away with the Southern League title...the 1992 team set four league and 24 club records...was named Manager of the Year by Baseball America and The Sporting News in 1992...received his respective leagues Manager of the Year award four times, taking the honor with Hagerstown (1981), Durham (1989), Greenville (1992) and Richmond (1994)..

My comment on the Torre hiring: Long live the Italians.

Torre isn't a stranger to So. Cal., having been a (very good)Angels broadcaster in the late '80's (used to see him a lot in the Newport area). If the managing thing doesn't work out,he'd be (a pricey) improvement over the Dodger's #2 &3 announcers.

Also, don't forget that he came within an RJ Reynolds bunt of winning back to back divisions with a Braves team that had a few stars (Murphy,Horner, Niekro), and a lot of guys even diehard Braves fans couldn't name (Rafael Ramirez? Bruce Benedict?)

169
One could make the argument that Barry Bonds signed with the Giants because he wanted to play for Dusty Baker. Baker's ascension as manager and Bonds signing with the Giants happened at about the same time.

a lot of guys even diehard Braves fans couldn't name (Rafael Ramirez? Bruce Benedict?)

Diehard Braves fans could name Rafael Ramirez. In fact, I think they nick-named him: "Raffy"

I am amused at the occasional wailing and gnashing of teeth about Ned Colletti's S.F. Giants connection or, now, the managerial/coaching staff imports from the N.Y. Yankees, because both clubs are historically rivals of the Dodgers. I don't think Angels fans care that their manager and some coaches carry a Dodger pedigree. Phil Jackson's roots are in the Chicago Bulls and the New York Knicks - he idolizes Red Holzman for goodness sake!

Once upon a time, a Los Angeles franchise that often came close, but never could hurdle its last barriers, despite the presence of homegrown and imported talent, decide that it needed a new head man and brought in a man who was most closely associated with its biggest rival. That man, in his first season in L.A., led the team to a long-awaited championship, getting a key veteran to buy into his approach for the best team results. That was ex-Celtic Bill Sharman (also ex-Dodger farmhand), who was either coach, general manager or president for the Lakers from 1971 until 1990.

Of course, Bill was a heck of a lot younger than Joe Torre is now.

178. Yeah, their ace starter (Pascual Perez) was best remembered for getting lost on an Atlanta freeway, and missing a start while he circled the city looking for his off ramp.

156 - "Sometimes its an image or reputation that means more than anything."

I was going to make a crack that the Dodgers should have hired John Wooden, but I'll just leave it at this: How can you actually believe that?

175 - maybe it's just me, but Torre always looks like he's gonna put a hit on somebody.

Good luck with Mr. Torre, Dodger fans. May you experience only good luck with the Wheel of Guts, may your best relievers' arms survive the year still in working order, and may you never, ever know the horror of "now starting at first base, Miguel Cairo".

I for one am fascinated by the prospect of dropping by here in June or July and seeing if the old dog has learned a new trick or two.

176 - If he hadn't brought in a pitcher who hadn't been warming up from the bullpen, perhaps R.J. doesn't even get to bunt :)

I hope it's clear that I've got no axe to grind with Torre. Personally, I like him and respect him quite a bit. It's just the notion that he's going to make the Dodgers champions simply with his aura that troubles me.

184 Come on, Jon. Pinella went to Tampa, and look at the wonders he worked.

Oh, right...

181 Way to over-analyze!

The more important question is who will Torre let join the Finer Things Club?

186 No spoilers!

184- In the midst of all of this Torre-mania, maybe you can bring back your excellent column on the RJ Reynolds game as a cautionary tale.

Breaking news!

http://tinyurl.com/yr33jk

Dodgers ace Penny to watch horse run at Santa Anita

Just drove home. The guy on 710 radio, Joe McDonald I think, says he has the following 2 facts on very good authority from two high ranking Dodger insiders:

1. Frank wanted and got Torre. Ned wanted Girardi and pushed hard. Frank wanted Torre and did nearly all the negotitations himself w/o Ned;

2. "Ned is on a very short leash" and is close to winding up like Depo is the Dodgers don't do well out of the gate this season.

190
Ned is the best decision Frank has ever made. In his life.

Jon, where exactly has anyone said that Torre will make the Dodgers champions with his aura alone? I'd be happy to see us win a post-season game for a change, and I think that at least is a realistic goal for season one.

I'm a little mystified by the generally negative reaction toward the Torre hiring, both from those out there in Dodgerland and the media (take a look at JA Adande's piece on ESPN.com if you need an example). I have a feeling it has more to do with the bad vibes about McCourt and the handling of the Grady departure than it does anything else.

176 - The darker part of that era for Torre was Brad Komminsk. Supposedly Torre messed with his swing in the majors and he was never the same since.

His minor league stats were really good, so that would make sense

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/K/Brad-Komminsk.shtml

182

To me, He's got that calm Al Pacino/godfather Demeanure about 'em, you know like in that part were they start kissing him in the hand & all, like that.

190 Not that I necessarily believe point #2, but it has me thinking. Would a mid-season firing be more likely to result in an in-house promotion of Logan White or Kim Ng?

A related question that I know has been asked here before, but I can't recall any answer. Does anyone have any ideas about what kind of GM Ng would make?

Scott Proctor on Torre and Little:

"I'm excited. I think it's going to be great for the organization. He knows how to win. He knows what it takes. He's a very directed and gifted leader.

"Grady is a great man. He's definitely a players' manager in the fact that he cared about what the players wanted. I think Joe's really good at letting the players be who they are, but yet you have to be who you are within the parameters of the team. I think that's what he's going to be better at than Grady."

Lifted from the Press-Telegram web site:
http://tinyurl.com/35lsoo

192 It's not negativity. It's ambivalence. The Little situation was handled horribly, and most of us believe a manager matters very little. Maybe six or seven game swing, max.

This is a splashy hire. And that's fine. I like Joe Torre very much. But it's a manager.

Does anyone have any ideas about what kind of GM Ng would make?

Definitely the kind that doesn't leave the toilet seat up.

192 - It's the thrust of nearly every column on the Torre hiring. The sheer force of his personality is exactly what the Dodgers need.

It's in the article I linked above, it was in the Times today, it's on MLB.com, it's everywhere.

I do agree with this: "I have a feeling it has more to do with the bad vibes about McCourt and the handling of the Grady departure than it does anything else." Again, I have gone out of my way to say I have nothing against Torre. I just don't see him as a savior, which is how most columnists are painting him.

I agree with 197.

190

I kind of really don't like Frank McCourt, reading that.

192 - Winning a postseason game would be just about as realistic a goal with any (living) manager in L.A. Dodger history as it is with Torre. It's still going to depend much more on the composition of the roster than anything the manager does.

190 - assuming this is true, I would guess the names of those two Dodger insiders are Tommy Lasorda, and Tommy Lasorda.

193
LaRoche AAA career vs. Komminsk 1983 AAA

Name... PA. 2B 3B HR BB Ks BA. OBP SLG OPS
ALaRoche 541 32 2 28 64 74 .315 .399 .572 .971
Komminsk 501 24 6 24 78 70 .334 .433 .596 1.029

Rereading 201, I'm not happy with my first sentence. I stand by my second sentence.

Komminsk did still make it into "A Happier 9/11" though.

202- For some reason, most Dodger "insiders" quoted seem to be named Tom Lasorda.

Does this report mean that this time Tommy wasn't doing his standard push for his guy Bobby Valentine?

Somewhere in a Fox Studio, is Kevin Kennedy complaining of a pro Italian hiring bias?

202 So is Lasorda an apparatchik, being used by the McCourts to disseminate info on background? Or is he a mole?

Or is he just out for himself? Don't answer that...

201 - True. Time will tell.

In any case, thanks Jon for providing an intelligent forum for discussion of all of this, for someone isolated out here in Yankee country.

Joe Torre was 2 for 7 with a walk and a strikeout lifetime against Dave LaRoche.

197 - six or seven games, puts the Dodgers right in the middle of the wild card race at the end of this season.

Again, I'll be a bit contrarian and argue that a good manager (and good coaches) are able to get more out their players. Yes, some players are simply so good that it doesn't matter who their coach is, but those athletes are rare. Perhaps Torre can put the young Dodgers over the top.

193,203- Without looking it up, didn't most of the Braves best prospects of that era (Brett Butler, Brook Jacoby) end up in places like Cleveland in bad trades engineered by wannabe GM Ted Turner?

if anything it is gonna be interesting seeing Torre in Dodger blue (for the 1st time) I'm sure I'll get use to it, we'll see how the formal introduction goes on monday.

212 Mattingly (assuming he's on the staff) will be more weird.

Brian Sabean said that it would be a reach for the Giants to get A-Rod.

213 - I think it will be weird through spring training, but in this day and age, I'm just use to seeing guys in different jerseys than what seems natural (Garnett in Celtic green, Boggs and Clemens in Pinstripes, anyone wearing a Raiders or Rams jersey, Gretzky in a Blues and then Rangers jersey).

202. Its Joe McDonald. I take it with a box of salt. He is such a blowhard its hard to believe anything he says. Moreover, why would any high ranking insider tell that knucklehead anything, much less two insiders. I don't think he made it up out of whole cloth but I question how high or inside the source(s) is. It might be the guy switching out the urinals in the field level bathrooms.

214. It will be a reach for everyone, even the team that gets him.

Tony Jackson speculates on Mattingly as heir-apparent:
http://blogs.dailynews.com/dodgers/

"I think there is value to (continuity), and that is the goal," Colletti said. "Joe is 67 years old, and we don't expect Joe to manage a very, very long time. If we can groom somebody under Joe's direction, we look forward to doing that, much like Tommy (Lasorda) was groomed under the direction of Walter (Alston). In my conversations with (Dodgers owners) Frank and Jamie McCourt about where we are going, the ideas we want to put in place and the things we want to build on, that was certainly one of the key components."

212. I hope he demands no. 12. That would start things off well.