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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Futurama
2007-11-19 17:02
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Some tidbits:

  • The site is located at 111th Avenue, west of the Loop 101 between Camelback Road and Glendale Avenue, and reaches across both Glendale and Phoenix city borders. The two-team facility will be the new home to the Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago White Sox, and in addition to state-of-the-art baseball facilities, the site will include, residential, restaurant and retail development, 4-star hotel and 18-hole golf course. ...

  • The 10,000-seat stadium, with 3,000 lawn seats, will cost approximately $76 million to build.

  • The Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority will provide 2/3 of the funding needed to construct the facility.

  • 118,000 sq. feet of Major and minor league clubhouses for the two teams

  • Four Major League practice fields

  • Eight minor league practice fields

  • Two practice infields

  • The site will include parking to accommodate 5,000 vehicles.

  • Comments (440)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2007-11-19 17:09:49
    1.   Greg Brock
    Mighty fine Blernsball field you got there, Dodgers.
    2007-11-19 17:09:59
    2.   bigcpa
    Future spring training home of Juan Pierre (and his White Sox mates).
    2007-11-19 17:10:58
    3.   JRSarno
    Will Ned Colletti have his own designated "war room" there?
    2007-11-19 17:11:25
    4.   still bevens
    GA lawn seating in the outfield is urgent and key. Nothings better than sitting on the grass in the sun with some beers and watching a game.
    2007-11-19 17:11:37
    5.   Robert Daeley
    Fry: Hey, I'm starting to get the hang of this game. The blerns are loaded, the count's three blerns and two anti-blerns and the infield blern rule is in effect, right?

    Leela: Except for the word 'blern' that was complete gibberish.

    2007-11-19 17:12:24
    6.   El Lay Dave
    2 The headline for the dodgers.com article on the groundbreaking is "Dodgers, White Sox break ground", which I first thought was going to be "break ground on trade talks". I forgot that the White Sox were the other team involved at Glendale. Wouldn't it be funny if JP were there in a White Sox uni?
    2007-11-19 17:12:32
    7.   underdog
    Darn, I thought this was going to a post about, well, you know...
    "Shut up friends. My internet browser heard us saying the word Fry and it found a movie about Philip J. Fry for us. It also opened my calendar to Friday and ordered me some french fries."

    --
    But seriously, that looks lovely. Should be a state of the art complex. The complete opposite of DodgerTown, for better and worse?

    2007-11-19 17:13:43
    8.   underdog
    Darn slow server speed...

    Hey, is that a swimming pool in the foreground or a little pond of some sort? Those Arizonans love pools at baseball stadiums...

    2007-11-19 17:15:59
    9.   bhsportsguy
    7 Probably better in the long run, I think the key is access to the players which the Dodgers said they were aware of and had plans to deal with that part of ST.
    2007-11-19 17:17:41
    10.   Jacob L
    What happens with all of these ST complexes the rest of the year? There aren't enough minor league teams to keep them all busy.
    2007-11-19 17:22:03
    11.   bhsportsguy
    Kevin Love already has a double double against Maryland.

    UCLA fans better cherish each game this season.

    2007-11-19 17:27:58
    12.   Daniel Zappala
    My wish: Angels replace the White Sox as joint tenant, long-term. Nothing better than a Dodgers-Angels doubleheader in the same stadium, with a break at a nice restaurant between games.
    2007-11-19 17:34:31
    13.   Ken Arneson
    8 I was just about to ask why there was a vortex beyond center field.
    2007-11-19 17:36:05
    14.   sgrady
    10- Thye are used for various other baseball leagues. I play in a Men's Adult Baseball League here in AZ and played at the Giants, Brewers, A's complex this past season. I know that the Padres/Mariners open their complex for amateur leagues. All these stadiums also open their stadiums for various amateur tournaments as well for high school, college, and amateur. It was pretty cool to play at these complexes through out our season. The A's complex easily had the nicest fields. They laser level and looked like they were artificial turf...sure hope I get to play at the Dodgers complex when it's ready
    2007-11-19 17:36:17
    15.   Jacob L
    12 Not into reliving the 59 World Series?

    Your scenario sounds fine, except that in the outer Phoenix suburbs, "nice restaurant" probably translates into P.F. Changs or some similar chain, at best.

    2007-11-19 17:42:28
    16.   Jacob L
    14 That's a great perk for the communities, but my mind just boggles at a $76 million spring training stadium. I suppose we're talking about a huge number of dates compared to an NFL stadium.
    2007-11-19 17:45:09
    17.   JRSarno
    Juan Pierre in a PF Chang uniform might sound more contractually appetizing, as opposed to any other potential scenario (i.e., CF or LF in '08).
    2007-11-19 17:45:32
    18.   still bevens
    The posse of drunken rowdy folk wearing Dodger jerseys to Giants games that I see in Scottsdale will be very happy about this.
    2007-11-19 18:43:11
    19.   Sam DC
    Wonderful essay on Mannix by Neely Tucker of the Post:

    "Trapped in time, Mannix goes sprinting across a suspension bridge in Long Beach, tie flapping over his shoulder. His name spells out in rectangular boxes on the screen, M-A-N-N-I-X, over shots of him jumping out of a car, swimming, driving a race car or swirling a blonde around in the sunlight, her skirt twisting above her hips. Days were tough there at 17 Paseo Verde, what with gunfire, exploding cars and hit men trying to cancel your oxygen supply.

    "But it also had Peggy's smile, the convertible out front, the .38 in the top right-hand desk drawer, the promise of a date for dinner. A man could take it in, tie loosened, Scotch in the crystal decanter, smokes in the soft pack.

    "The rest of the 20th century hadn't happened yet."

    http://tinyurl.com/2v8p2y

    2007-11-19 18:48:27
    20.   Greg Brock
    I think Mannix is still my father's all time favorite television program.
    2007-11-19 18:54:23
    21.   Bluebleeder87
    Well I can't wait to make a trip out there but I was really hoping to make the long trip to Vero Beach but it looks like destiny will not let me, it's all good, at least the Dodgers will be with in driving distance now. I wonder if Jon is considering a Zona DT gathering!? I'm game if it happens.
    2007-11-19 18:57:36
    22.   MC Safety
    So, Greg can I get you to give up your Top 3-5 Chicago songs?
    2007-11-19 19:06:06
    23.   El Lay Dave
    19 20 Mannix! Great theme. I remember watching Mannix on Saturday nights with my dad - we didn't worry about the violence in those days - around 1970 or so. Tough, hard-boiled, and hard-nosed, the way men my father's age liked it. Ah, Mannix, The F.B.I. (with periods), The Name of the Game, Medical Center (my mom's favorite) - those were the days.

    Nice rip at L.A. at the end, "Los Angeles is a land of lies", published from Washington D.C. no less!

    2007-11-19 19:09:25
    24.   El Lay Dave
    23 add The Wild, Wild West.
    2007-11-19 19:12:06
    25.   Greg Brock
    22
    25 or six to four
    Does anybody really know what time it is
    Beginnings
    If you leave me know

    Pretty much most of the non-Cetera stuff. But he even sneaks in to a few favorites, because the songs are outstanding.

    2007-11-19 19:14:02
    26.   Bluebleeder87
    Woah, I didn't realize (after reading Sarah's take) that Brett Butler had a LIFETIME OB% OF .377. It got me thinking, I really wouldn't mind having a guy like Butler manning CF if he was getting on base that often, decent arm & good glove, I wouldn't mind at all. Besides, you could get your power from the other outfield positions.
    2007-11-19 19:22:31
    27.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
    Is it just me, or are the Yankees having a TERRIBLE offseason? They will be paying a lot more for the same 3B, catcher, and closer they had last year, but at least 2 of the three are very likely to be worse this year (and A-rod is probably also going to drop off a bit).

    Each of those guys is a better option next year than anyone else available, but to have to give out contracts that will take all three into their respective 40s? Each of those guys will be the highest paid player at their position well after their performance falls off.

    2007-11-19 19:35:32
    28.   Marty
    My family never watched Mannix nor Hawaii Five-O. But we did watch Mod Squad and Wild Wild West.
    2007-11-19 19:35:54
    29.   Marty
    Brock, how did the tourney go?
    2007-11-19 19:43:39
    30.   Sam DC
    My dad like Cannon the best -- social justice and all.

    Actually, he liked the Nero Wolfe books best of all. Ah, dames, orchids, beer. Nero Wolfe had it all going on.

    2007-11-19 19:44:40
    31.   Marty
    I forgot about Cannon. We never watched that one either. I guess my parents weren't big PI show fans.
    2007-11-19 19:45:43
    32.   Greg Brock
    29 I won back my buy-in, but got smoked.
    2007-11-19 19:56:46
    33.   Marty
    Beats losin. That means you finished about 10th, right? Nothing wrong with that.
    2007-11-19 20:00:12
    34.   Eric Stephen
    27 Is it just me, or are the Yankees having a TERRIBLE offseason?
    I'd say it's generally a good idea to bring back the same offense that scored 968 runs the year before.

    With the Yankees, they can certainly absorb many a high-salaried player, so I wouldn't worry too much about them breaking budget.

    Their question will be what kind of pitching staff they can put together. Unless they can persuade Pettitte to return, they need to compile a rotation from the following pitchers:

    Wang
    Hughes
    Mussina
    Kennedy
    Chamberlain (or bullpen of course)
    Igawa

    Also, and speaking of deadweight contracts the Yanks can afford to absorb, Carl Pavano is also on the squad. Will he be healthy? That might be the $11 million question.

    I don't think the Yankees are done, but even if they don't make another move I wouldn't classify their offseason as "terrible".

    2007-11-19 20:02:29
    35.   Eric Stephen
    25
    This is probably a bad time to mention I actually like Peter Cetera, albeit from afar. I'm a sucker for the rock ballads, from Cetera, Steve Perry, et al.

    That sound you hear is my credibility flying out the window.

    2007-11-19 20:05:11
    36.   Eric Stephen
    Amusing quote from McCourt in the Times' Dodger Report:

    "Quite frankly, that's something that the Dodgers have lacked over the last couple of decades, having a long-term plan, a long-term strategy," McCourt said.

    Heh.

    2007-11-19 20:09:37
    37.   Daniel Zappala
    36 See comment #337 from the last thread.
    2007-11-19 20:13:51
    38.   Benaiah
    Heroes had about 5 "cliffhanger" moments tonight, but most of them I already knew before they happened. That show has really fallen off. Chuck is really good though.
    2007-11-19 20:16:57
    39.   Greg Brock
    The new Star Trek movie has the most random casting.
    2007-11-19 20:19:51
    40.   Sam DC
    More random than Denise Richards as nuclear disarmament specialist Dr. Christmas Jones?
    2007-11-19 20:21:47
    41.   Vishal
    while poking around for loney comps, i stumbled upon this blog post. i figured i might as well close the loop:

    http://ty4.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-baseball-prospectus-should-be.html

    btw, where's a good site to get a player's comparables?

    2007-11-19 20:23:50
    42.   Greg Brock
    40 I expect ridiculously hot women to be nuclear physicists in the Bond universe.

    I don't expect Winona Rider to be Spock's mother. Or for Shaun of the Dead to play Montgomery Scott.

    2007-11-19 20:26:15
    43.   Louis in SF
    Nice throwback reference to Joe Mannix, was a favorite of mine, also loved the original Secret Agent with Patrick MacGowen (sp).

    On topic with the Dodgers ending their relationship with Vero Beach in 2008 and with Vinny being the real last rep from Brooklyn-don't consider Lasorda in that camp, wondering if his journey to Glendale AZ today is an indication that he is going to continue after his contract expires at the end of 2008?

    2007-11-19 20:41:04
    45.   Vishal
    44 'roldy is sulu? that's awesome.
    2007-11-19 20:42:16
    46.   neuroboy002
    38 Why even mention that? What's the point? Especially for us we haven't watched the episode yet since it hasn't turned 9pm? I know you didn't blow any endings (thankfully), but it's still annoying.

    I don't think the show has "fallen off" at all. I thought the episode where Matt Parkman confronted his father (nightmare man) was one of the best. Each episode has been really good and I think the large following proves it.

    Now the "The Office" I thought was beginning to fall off. Last season was overly-peppered with Michael Scott involved in spine cringing moments - I wasn't laughing as much as I was being shocked. This season is way better. I'm laughing and enjoying it a lot more.

    2007-11-19 20:43:44
    47.   Scanman33
    I posted this below before seeing there was a new thread, so apologies for double posting.

    Is Kemp the center of a PR hit job?

    It certainly sounds like Kemp's supposed "attitude" is being played up within the local media (where stories of him "moving a trash can" have been lapped up by the Plaschkes of SoCal) and the national media (whenever Kemp's name comes up in trade talk).

    Is this a concerted effort to justify moving him to the fans who want to see more homegrown talent and want the Dodgers to keep and play the younger guys? It really does nothing to deflate his potential value to trade suitors, who would gladly take on any supposed "attitude" issues for the tremendous upside and talent Kemp brings. If he does have an attitude, does it derail a team like the Marlins from winning the 73-75 games they can reasonably be expected to tally this year?

    If/when he is moved, the "Well, he could have been the next Milton Bradley or Raul Mondesi" feeling is supposed to be enough to take the sting out of the deal. Sure, it will be a temporary elixir, as Kemp will go on to blossom elsewhere in 2 to 3 years. But since when were PR moves designed to make people feel good for the long term? Short-term, feel good fixes are the MO of the McCourt regime, so it certainly wouldn't be out of character and it would certainly show the veterans that Colletti desperately wants to attract to L.A. that this organization doesn't allow the young punks to run the show.

    Anyway, it seemed the drumbeat about Matt Kemp's attitude is designed to turn him into an afterthought in any deal the team makes, as if the Dodgers HAVE to include a Kershaw to make a team swallow Kemp. Welcome to San Francisco South folks.

    2007-11-19 20:51:37
    48.   natepurcell
    From Gurnick's mailbag

    If they insist on hoarding every top young prospect, they won't make any significant trades and, aside from free-agent signings, they'll go to Spring Training with roughly the same roster that finished fourth.

    In a literal sense, that is true but COME ON, that statement is as littered with as many holes as the "who's to say" argument.

    2007-11-19 21:00:42
    49.   Greg Brock
    I'm going to defend Ned Colletti here, and say that if he was willing to trade LaRoche, Kemp, and The Minotaur for Cabrera, he'd have done it by now. And Florida would have taken it.
    2007-11-19 21:06:49
    50.   natepurcell
    So I'm going through the dodgers video top plays archive from this past year....

    just reaffirms my belief that all the young major league players should be off limits in trade talks.

    Heck, the only player who should be involved in trade talks is Pierre.

    1. Trade Juan
    2. Sign Druw

    This team would be SO much better and its so simple!

    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2007-11-19 21:08:39
    51.   Jon Weisman
    This is my first week since I dropped "Heroes" for good, and I feel much the better for it.

    I gave Chuck a fourth try last weekend, and still can't get on board.

    It's 9 p.m. on a Monday, and I'm free!

    2007-11-19 21:13:41
    52.   Vishal
    50 now this is a plan i can get behind. i would be down with subbing andruw for juan. that would give us the "big bat", and we could give laroche a fair shake at winning the 3rd base job away from nomar over the course of the season (which he should do by say, may), and maybe in the meantime he can even spell kent at 2nd base from time to time.

    we could toss out kemp and ethier at the corners, with d. young rotating in for some starts, maybe. hu can be another utility guy and furcal insurance, or else get him more regular at-bats in vegas. i like it.

    2007-11-19 21:20:35
    53.   Dark Horse
    50-This is so patently the correct plan, the only plan that makes sense.

    Needless to say, it won't occur to Colletti. Or it will, but he won't allow himself an offseason that admits quite so transparently that Pierre was a mistake. I believe he will, or would, try to move Pierre if he could, but I also think he'll shuffle some more deck chairs if possible so the Pierre transaction isn't as exposed.

    God, we would be a good team with Jones and without Pierre, period. And with McDonald/Kershaw/Kuo ready to plug whatever leaks there are in the rotation. Pity we'll never do anything quite so straightforward.

    2007-11-19 21:22:40
    54.   natepurcell
    52

    Furcal
    Kemp
    Loney
    Kent
    Druw
    Ethier
    Martin
    Laroche

    That lineup wins games.

    2007-11-19 21:24:32
    55.   Vishal
    and as as aside, how can anybody even read the sentence "pierre in left field" with a straight face, let alone bandy it about as a serious potentiality? what kind of world are we living in.
    2007-11-19 21:25:38
    56.   Bob Timmermann
    I'm feeling good about life after an uplifting trip to see "No Country for Old Men."

    Makes me want to go to a slaughterhouse.

    2007-11-19 21:29:53
    57.   Bob Timmermann
    55
    I lived in a world where Al Oliver played left field for the Dodgers.

    And I even remember Al Oliver playing center field.

    2007-11-19 21:30:22
    58.   natepurcell
    I don't believe the Marlins when they are asking for the deal they are asking. When they traded Beckett, did they get back any proven major league talent? No they didn't. I don't see that as a sticking point in the deal. We have just as much talent in our system now as the Red Sox did when they made the trade.
    2007-11-19 21:34:45
    59.   neuroboy002
    51 Jon, I am betting you have already expressed you views, but why just drop it cold?

    Too many unresolved story lines? Was the dialogue shoddy? I'm just very curious.

    I was a big "Lost" fan until season 2 hit. I was working every Wednesday night and with out owning a tvo, I just got too far behind and never bothered to catch up.

    2007-11-19 21:41:06
    60.   LeeLacy
    56 So do you recommend it? I've been very anxious to see the movie and will probably do so before the week's end.
    2007-11-19 21:45:00
    61.   JRSarno
    I agree wholeheartedly. Does Colletti have the sack to own up to the Pierre mistake? If he takes an ego hit for the good of the organization, they will sign Andruw, and -- in doing so -- they kill three birds with one stone. (1) Add power, (2) Retain all of our young studs, and (3) Discard Pierre from the equation. Assuming no trade is possible to get rid of him, can you live with paying Pierre to sit on the bench and fetch Torre some green tea?
    2007-11-19 21:47:01
    62.   LAT
    Sad sad day. Venus Flytrap shows up as a police officer in That's so Raven.
    2007-11-19 21:49:04
    63.   StolenMonkey86
    26 ,54
    How about this one?

    Furcal
    Laroche
    Kemp
    Kent
    Loney
    Druw
    Ethier
    Martin

    2007-11-19 21:49:41
    64.   StolenMonkey86
    that or have Laroche lead off.
    2007-11-19 21:51:08
    65.   StolenMonkey86
    could we trade Pierre for Pavano?
    2007-11-19 21:54:17
    66.   Telemachos
    56 Just make sure you don't shoot a steer. It might fight back.
    2007-11-19 21:59:13
    67.   Ranma
    Not sure if anyone has posted this yet but Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the Dodgers are currently the front-runners to land Miguel Cabrera...if they include Kemp, LaRoche, and Kershaw in a deal. :-(

    http://tinyurl.com/3x666g

    2007-11-19 22:01:51
    68.   LAT
    I seriously hope Sabean deals Lincicum for Cabrera. They will lose a great pitcher for a fat, Jeff Kent range 3B when they could have re-signed Pedro Feliz. Feliz is the best defensive 3B in the N.L. and still gives you 20-25 HRs. Granted his OBS sucks but if you re-sign him you have a servicable 3B without giving up one of the most promising young arms in baseball. In addition, when you have to extend Cabrera it will hamstring you for years when combined with Zito. $40M to two players. Ha Ha. The Giants have so many holes they would have been way better off re-signing Feliz. I will be pissed when Cabrera beats the Dodgers a couple of times a year but overall it will kill the Giants for the long term. Go Sabes!!!
    2007-11-19 22:02:01
    69.   Greg Brock
    67 Robothal's musings have been a great source of angst today. I don't buy it.

    This is the new, positive me. Colletti wouldn't do that deal.

    2007-11-19 22:05:52
    70.   Daniel Zappala
    50 58 Nate, you've been reading what I've been writing, lately, haven't you? :-)
    2007-11-19 22:10:12
    71.   LAT
    I guess I'm still working off of yesterday's news. I thought SF was the front runner. I don't want Caberara if it involves Kemp, Bills or Loney. Kershaw or LaRoche maybe but that's not possibly enought for Fla.
    2007-11-19 22:10:41
    72.   Benaiah
    63 - No way Martin bats 8th, even 6th or 7th. I think he should bat 2nd next year with or without Pierre.
    2007-11-19 22:15:52
    73.   Benaiah
    72 - He makes for a decent Kevin Youkilis, less OBP, but more SLG, AVG and even a nice bit of speed so everyone should be happy.
    2007-11-19 22:19:11
    74.   Bob Loblaw
    Why would Ned pay $11 Mil for Cabrera to hit 35 HR & play 3B, instead of keeping Kemp & LaRoche for less than $1 Mil to combine for 45 HR? Makes little sense to me without even considering Kershaw in the mix. I realize you must give value to get value, but I wouldn't give more than LaRoche, McDonald, & Repko. If that doesn't make them happy then we can walk away and keep our guys. I'd actually prefer to see LaRoche grow into the position for us anyway,
    2007-11-19 22:20:24
    75.   sincitydodger
    I've never posted here before, but I have been reading the posts for quite some time and always enjoy the insight of knowledgeable baseball/Dodger followers. Anyway, The Chicago Sun Times is reporting the White Sox are close to a deal with Torii Hunter, from sources on both sides. Their plan is to follow that up by focusing on a proven lead-off hitter to play left field.
    2007-11-19 22:21:29
    76.   CajunDodger
    56
    I am kinda of a Director Snob. I go to see Coen brothers movies and Michael Mann movies despite the critics musings.

    Never been disappointed by Mann, but Intolerable Cruelty and Ladykillers nearly marked the brothers off my list. I hope that that movie is as good as everyone says. I am going to the Laemelle (sp) in Pasadena on Wednesday to see it while the wife and the mini-Cajun are at Disneyland.

    On a scale of 1-10 how good was it?

    2007-11-19 22:21:57
    77.   LAT
    Mets mailbag coveting Ethier:

    I know the Mets aren't interested in trading unless it's for a pitcher, but I think they should go for Andre Ethier. I think he is exactly what we need for right field; he's young, a good hitter, good glove and he bats left-handed. He put up great numbers in his first two seasons with the Dodgers. I think they can make a simple trade such as Lastings Millege straight up for him.
    -- Jack R., East Meadow, N.Y.

    If Ethier had produced "great numbers," as you said, why would you expect the Dodgers to trade him for a player who hasn't? Ethier would be a terrific fit. His numbers have been, well, encouraging -- 24 home runs and 119 RBIs and a .295 batting average in 843 at-bats over two seasons. But because he bats left-handed and has power, he has more value to the Dodgers than Milledge has to the Mets or the Dodgers. More than Milledge would have to be included, and the Mets don't have a lot of excess players with value.

    2007-11-19 22:23:01
    78.   CajunDodger
    75
    If "proven" means lots of hits, steals, and bunt singles then we got a guy for you...
    2007-11-19 22:23:35
    79.   heato
    I realize politics are off-limits, but this is one of the best campaign ads I have ever seen.

    If this violates Rule 5, please delete it. I only wanted to mention the ad, however, not the politics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUQW8LUMs8

    2007-11-19 22:24:32
    80.   natepurcell
    Their plan is to follow that up by focusing on a proven lead-off hitter to play left field.

    Stop teasing us.

    2007-11-19 22:30:46
    81.   sincitydodger
    From the Sun Times

    "The next step for Williams if he does land Hunter this week, is adding a proven leadoff hitter/left fielder, which could be accomplished in shipping third baseman Joe Crede out in a trade. The bullpen will then be the focus for the remainder of the offseason."

    Coletti can assist in their goals.

    2007-11-19 22:32:01
    82.   Greg Brock
    80 It's almost too perfect.

    What's his face for a ham sandwich and a side of rice pilaf! Make the deal, Ned!

    2007-11-19 22:32:23
    83.   natepurcell
    81

    Colletti can assist only if Kenny doesn't insist on Colletti taking Crede back.

    2007-11-19 22:33:02
    84.   trainwreck
    81
    He better not.
    2007-11-19 22:34:08
    85.   the2pin
    Prospects come and go. Maybe Kemp succeeds, hits .310 with 20 HR. Maybe LaRoche breaks his back and never amounts to anything. Maybe. Who really knows?

    We're making a big mistake not upgrading via trade. By not spending 20 million on someone legit like Cabrera or Johan, we're empowering Ned to spend 12 million on someone average like Rowand.

    You want to watch the kids develop into average-to-above-average, low-cost major leaguers? Fine. But expect average-to-above-average results from the Dodgers. And don't expect a World Series for another 20 years.

    2007-11-19 22:34:32
    86.   sincitydodger
    83

    Agreed.

    2007-11-19 22:38:11
    87.   Greg Brock
    85 If these players were projected to be average, you'd be right. If Kemp was average, you'd be right. If Kershaw wasn't a left handed pitcher that throws 95 with a hammer curve, you'd be right.

    I can understand wanting Cabrera, as I've wanted him on the Dodgers for years. But not getting him means 20 years without a World Series? A bit much.

    2007-11-19 22:40:29
    88.   natepurcell
    And don't expect a World Series for another 20 years.

    Since the last 20 years all those big trades and high price free agents worked.

    We get it, you want a star. Seems like other teams are DROOLING over the possibility of raiding our young talent cupboard, yet they know not to ask for OUR young star...you know, that 24 yr old catcher who was just recently an all star.

    2007-11-19 22:40:57
    89.   CajunDodger
    83
    Not true. The words "non-tender" come to mind as do the words "Crede traded for a whole bunch of sunflower seeds and an infield rake."
    2007-11-19 22:42:13
    90.   CanuckDodger
    85 -- Maybe Miguel Cabrera eats himself into being a DH, maybe he gets hit by a bus. Maybe. Your posts are not making any sense. Anybody can play the "maybe" game. And Kemp is not a prospect. And Florida doesn't just want one highly talented guy. And I could go on and on with the "And..." statements tearing your position apart but everybody gets the point.
    2007-11-19 22:43:03
    91.   Vishal
    85 that sounds like somewhat of a false dichotomy to me.

    why can't we have the kids as average-to-above-average major leaguers and if necessary you can supplement them with legit stars acquired through free agency? the money we save by using young players in the positions where we have them in the next few years can land us the likes andruw jones and johan santana, AND we wouldn't have to give up the farm.

    2007-11-19 22:44:43
    92.   the2pin
    88 I want a winner. I want to spend as much as it takes. I don't care about "watching players develop". I want to win. It is all that matters.

    What big name trades and free agents?

    2007-11-19 22:48:24
    93.   the2pin
    90 I'm quite sure you will not be able to tear my position apart. "Maybe" works with our young players because most do not have a full season under their belt. Not a "season" stretched over two years, but one, long, grueling MLB season.

    "Maybe" doesn't work with Miguel Cabrera because he has nothing to prove.

    91 Is 100% correct. What I want to do is supplement the kids with legit stars acquired through free agency.

    The problem is: (1) legit stars never make free agency, they get resigned because the fans would revolt and (2)L.A. seems reluctant to pay the big bucks.

    What "legit free agents" do you see on the market? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm honestly interested. I don't count Rowand. Jones -- maybe.

    2007-11-19 22:49:13
    94.   Greg Brock
    92 Developing players is how you win. The Yankees haven't won a thing since they abandoned player development. Boston doesn't win the World Series withouth their young kids. The Braves decade of dominance was built on their farm system. As were the Indians sluggers of the 90's.

    The Marlins beat the Yankees with nothing but kids. And on and on.

    You win precisely by developing kids.

    2007-11-19 22:50:06
    95.   Bob Loblaw
    92. We once had a sheriff who wanted to spend to win. Where did that get us?
    2007-11-19 22:51:41
    96.   LAT
    I want to win also. Let's spend Frank's dough, not trade the prospects.
    2007-11-19 22:51:42
    97.   natepurcell
    On orioleshangout.com, the first 3 pages of their MB contains about 12 different Dodger related threads totaling probably 60 pages of dodger drooling.
    2007-11-19 22:53:43
    98.   natepurcell
    What big name trades and free agents?

    Pedro was one

    Shaw for Konerko + others was another.

    And there was Kevin Brown...Darren Dreifort...Juan Pierre :(

    2007-11-19 22:54:05
    99.   the2pin
    94 Nice try. I agree that developing players is essential. However, the Dodgers have a glut of young talent. Playing Ethier means not playing Young, etc.

    The Marlins? The had Miguel Cabrera. The Yankees "haven't won a thing," but they've made the playoffs -- and usually at least one playoff series -- something the Dodgers cannot boast. And the Red Sox? They don't have a perennial MVP canidate at DH?

    2007-11-19 22:56:13
    100.   LogikReader
    Hmm, just read the Sun-Times article. I suppose my suspicions were correct: Hunter may be on his way to the Sox.

    "With Cabrera at shortstop and Hunter in center field, not only would the Sox add two Gold Glovers to the mix, but now have the hole in the No. 2 spot of the lineup filled with Cabrera, while Hunter would offer protection for the "big three'' of Jim Thome, Paul Konerko and Jermaine Dye in the batting order."

    Now THAT's a team of PVL!!

    ---

    Assuming Hunter signs in Chicago, that leaves only 2 remaining overpriced OFs: A Jones and A Rowand. With enough luck, some dope will bite on Rowand, and the Dodger offseason will be a success!

    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2007-11-19 22:56:59
    101.   Andrew Shimmin
    It would be awesome if there were a magic formula for winning the World Series. But there isn't one. But it would be awesome if there were one.

    But there isn't one.

    2007-11-19 22:58:46
    102.   CanuckDodger
    93 -- Sorry, but I've already torn your position apart, by pointing out your factural errors and mistaken assumptions. Cabrera is proven, all right. He is proven to be getting steadily fatter at an absurdly young age, and already proved in 2007 that it made him a terrible third basemen, far less capable than LaRoche, who was very good at 3B in the majors.

    Florida is trying to dump Cabrera for much more talent that is further from free agency. Cabrera is far LESS valuable than any package of players it would take to get him. Florida knows it, the Dodgers seem to know it, I know it, everybody here but you knows it.
    2007-11-19 22:58:49
    103.   LAT
    40. Denise Richards as a nuclear specialist is simultaneously one of the worst and best casting jobs ever. It could only be better if she was topless.
    2007-11-19 22:59:43
    104.   Greg Brock
    The Marlins? The had Miguel Cabrera.

    And Josh Beckett, and Carl Pavano (healthy), and Brad Penny. And Cabrera? June call up. I'll bet they're glad they didn't trade him for a proven winner.

    2007-11-19 23:02:43
    105.   natepurcell
    104

    And Dontrelle, who posted 160 innings of 127+ ball during that year.

    2007-11-19 23:02:48
    106.   LAT
    102. He knows it too. He's just trolling.
    2007-11-19 23:05:30
    107.   Greg Brock
    106 The problem with trolling here is that we're all earnest. It's easy to reel in the fish.

    Trolling is generally an anathema on The Toaster.

    2007-11-19 23:07:30
    108.   the2pin
    102 I have made no "factual errors" or "mistaken assumptions" but I will demonstrate one of your own. You are undervaluing Cabrera and overvaluing Dodger prospects.

    THROUGH AGE 24
    BA OBP SLG OPS HR RBI
    Rodriguez .308 .363 .551 .916 148 463
    Cabrera .313 .388 .542 .930 138 523

    Cabrera may be one of the finest hitters in the history of the game. LaRoche, while certainly promising, is injury prone and unproven.

    Pardon me if I'm curbing the enthusiasm around here. Look at Bill James' projections! These are solid ballplayers, but not All-Stars, and some -- like LaRoche -- come with risks of their own.

    2007-11-19 23:09:40
    109.   the2pin
    I'm trolling? Pardon my mixed metaphors, but when dealing prospects for the best young hitter in baseball becomes trolling, you know some crusty old Dodger fans have jumped the shark.
    2007-11-19 23:09:49
    110.   natepurcell
    Juan Pierre in 2003...

    305/361/373 55bb 35k 65sb 20cs

    I would shut up about him if he can do the same thing the next 3 years.

    2007-11-19 23:12:20
    111.   Strike4
    The artist of the first drawing has applied the standard east coast dogma against the Dodgers. The game is still underway and the stands and parking lot are deserted.
    2007-11-19 23:12:36
    112.   Greg Brock
    109 None of the crusty old people are here. Sure, LAT is getting a little long in the tooth, but the man is still a matinee idol. And I just turned thirty. I don't have the first clue how old Canuck is, but I doubt he's very crusty.

    Shimmin's probably pretty crusty. Prematurely so, I'd guess. Nate's still in college for Chrissakes.

    2007-11-19 23:15:10
    113.   LAT
    Adoration and accolades for Joe Mannix, Fat Cannon and James T. West but no love for Venus Flytrap. You are a cold bunch DT. A cold bunch.
    2007-11-19 23:17:30
    114.   natepurcell
    109

    One aspect of my position is that I'm stingy. I have invested a lot of my time over the past 3-4 years following these players through the minors. It would just piss me off dearly to see another team reap the rewards of the Dodgers' cultivation.

    That's one personal reason why I might be looking through blue colored glasses when trying to figure out the cost/benefit analysis of these trade packages.

    2007-11-19 23:17:40
    115.   LAT
    109. I tried to jump the shark. I looked everywhere for it. Turns out the best hitter in baseball ate it.
    2007-11-19 23:21:07
    116.   LAT
    112. I dunno Brock when we start talking about Mannix, Cannon and Wild Wild West we don't exactly sound like the kids in the hall.
    2007-11-19 23:22:51
    117.   Greg Brock
    It's getting very ugly in Westwood.
    2007-11-19 23:23:19
    118.   natepurcell
    To add onto 114, the Marlins have to trade Cabrera. It's a given, it's what they have done with all their star players (Lee, Beckett, Penny, Delgado, etc).

    We have the ability to offer the best package WITHOUT making any major league players available. Why is that? Because we have enough depth to sustain a blow of losing 3 or so top minor league prospects. Few teams can do that, and even fewer teams that have the ability to keep Cabrera long term have the ability to do that.

    What I am trying to say is, its a waiting game with Florida. Florida needs to move Piggy more than we need him. Offer them a package (Laroche + McDonald +Hu/Meloan) and let them take that package to other teams. No team that has the funds to keep Cabrera long term will offer more than that.

    2007-11-19 23:24:32
    119.   Greg Brock
    116 Yes, but that's you. You're the old one, Oldie.
    2007-11-19 23:27:15
    120.   Greg Brock
    118 I'm open to trading prospects. But Matt Kemp, James Loney, Chad Billingsley, and Russell Martin are not prospects. They are above average major league baseball players right now, and will only improve (barring injury).

    I'm willing to trade a number of players not on the major league team, including the best pitching prospect in baseball.

    2007-11-19 23:28:20
    121.   Ranma
    109. You still haven't addressed the fact that Cabrera--while young--is currently not a good defensive third basemen and will soon eat himself out of that position entirely. Also, what happens when he becomes a free agent after 2009 when we are then faced with the option of overpaying him in order to possibly become the next Mo Vaughn? Sure sounds like a bargain to me if it only costs some of the most coveted prospects in all of baseball.
    2007-11-19 23:29:10
    122.   Benaiah
    To compare the lineup after a trade sending Laroche and Kemp to Florida (and signing Rowand to replace Kemp) to another plausible scenario (trading Pierre to open a spot for Andruw Jones) I decided to play around with the Baseball Musings lineup generator (http://tinyurl.com/2q8qum). I used a lineup of Furcal, Martin, Loney, Jones, Kemp, Kent, Ethier, Laroche, and the pitcher's spot (.200 OBP, 2.50 SLG) with their Bill James projections (http://tinyurl.com/36z54y). That lineup generated 5.196 runs per game, or ~842 runs in a season (compared to 735 in 2006).

    Then I compared that to a lineup of Furcal, Martin, Cabrera, Rowand, Loney, Kent, Ethier, Pierre and that same generic pitcher's spot (http://tinyurl.com/2mrgmc). That line up scored 5.22 runs a game, or ~846 runs in a season. This would indicate that signing Rowand and trading Cabrera for Kemp and Laroche would win half an extra game in 2008 over trading Pierre for anything and signing Andruw. This is more of an example than a real argument (I can think of about 10 stronger ways to do this), but my point is that a balanced lineup can be about as good as having a superstar and a few holes. Sometimes it is possible to do both, maybe in Hot Stove '08 (V2.0).

    2007-11-19 23:29:51
    123.   natepurcell
    I'm willing to trade a number of players not on the major league team, including the best pitching prospect in baseball.

    Stop talking in the hypothetical, Dodgers don't have anyone with that description.

    2007-11-19 23:29:56
    124.   CanuckDodger
    Calling Matt Kemp a prospect when he isn't one by the definition of MLB or Baseball America is a factual error. Assuming he won't or can't hit more than 20 HR's is a wrong assumption, since everybody who has assessed him puts his power ceiling higher than that. Calling LaRoche injury prone is another factual error. Dealing with injuries in one year out of a five year career as Dodger property does not make anybody injury prone. Nomar is injury prone, because he gets hurt EVERY year. And a disc problem is going to lead to a broken back for LaRoche? Vlad Guerrero had the same medical issue when the Angels signed him, a bad disc in his back. It has really hurt him, hasn't it? It is a manageable medical condition. And I am factually NOT overvaluing Dodger prospects. I value them no more and no less than the professional baseball scouting industry values them. You are the one who is either ignornant of their real value as determined by those professionals or willfully disregarding that value in service of your unsupportable beliefs.
    2007-11-19 23:31:10
    125.   the2pin
    118 Very helpful post.

    However, in light of your "stinginess" above, could you imagine the blood on the tracks in FL -- among the few fans that still care -- if you trade Cabrera and get zero proven players in return?

    When Beckett was traded the Sox took on Lowell's perceived bad contract and gave up Hanley Ramirez, who is now the best shortstop in baseball.

    I agree that we might be able to offer the best package, but what makes you so sure the Angels aren't going to relent and include Kendrick?

    2007-11-19 23:31:44
    126.   Greg Brock
    Stop talking in the hypothetical, Dodgers don't have anyone with that description.

    That's my line! He's stealing my line!

    2007-11-19 23:32:00
    127.   Strike4
    The scene I always think of from Cannon was when he entered an apartment and a huge snarling guard dog attacked. He simply reached into the hall closet, pulled out a convenient trenchcoat and the dog leapt into it. The closet door was still open, so voila in goes the dog. Cannon didn't even have to slam the door. One unflappable tv detective.
    2007-11-19 23:33:47
    128.   the2pin
    124 Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kemp recently projected to hit ~.310 and hit 16 HR next season?
    2007-11-19 23:35:44
    129.   natepurcell
    125

    hanley became who he is after the fact. when the marlins dealt for him, he was largely unproven, and still a prospect. and so what anibal.

    2007-11-19 23:35:52
    130.   the2pin
    In case anyone missed this, here is the Dodgers line up with their Bill James projections next year.

    C - Martin .292/.379/.456/.835, 17 HR
    1B - Loney .302/.359/.465/.823, 14 HR
    2B - Kent .290/.368/.486/.854, 22 HR
    SS - Furcal .286/.352/.403/.755, 11 HR
    3B - Laroche .275/.367/.458/.825, 19 HR
    LF - Kemp .322/.365/.508/.873, 16 HR
    RF - Ethier .304/.371/.477/.848, 16 HR
    CF - Pierre .298/.343/.361/.703, 1 HR

    2007-11-19 23:39:58
    131.   Greg Brock
    130 James is stingy, and I'd take that lineup in a heartbeat, minus the centerfielder. Plug Andruw Jones in there, and I'd go to battle with that lineup and a rotation with Penny, Lowe, Billingsley, Schmidt (maybe), and whomever they pick. With McDonald and Kershaw down the pike.

    I like it.

    2007-11-19 23:43:29
    132.   Bob Loblaw
    125. If the Angels offer a better package for Cabrera, they can have him. We don't need him if it tears up the core of our future.
    2007-11-19 23:43:43
    133.   LAT
    Neither Loney, Kemp, Ethier nor Laroche got a full season of playing time. Nomar, Betimite, Pierre all blocked them.
    2007-11-19 23:47:20
    134.   Greg Brock
    133 And Billingsley started in the pen, while Tomdrickson made our eyes bleed.
    2007-11-19 23:48:01
    135.   Benaiah
    131 - I like using those projections because if anything they same a little harsh. Loney is only going to hit 14 home runs when he hit 15 this year in a partial season? Kemp's 16 seems low too. I could see it being much better than that, but even that would be a top 5 offense in the NL with Jones.
    2007-11-19 23:48:40
    136.   CanuckDodger
    130 -- Kemp .322/.365/.508. I think Kemp would need to hit more than 16 HR's to get that .508 slugging perecentage. 2008 would be Kemp's first full MLB season. What did Cabrera do in his first full season? .294/.366/.512. And it isn't just a Kemp-for-Cabrera trade you are talking about. You can say Cabrera is going to be better than Kemp going forward, or better than LaRoche, or better than Kershaw, if you want, but better than three of them combined? And those three players combined are 17 years from free agency, versus TWO years for Cabrera.
    2007-11-19 23:49:31
    137.   Vishal
    i wonder what miguel cabrera had for dinner tonight.
    2007-11-19 23:52:16
    138.   Greg Brock
    137 He went to his favorite restaurant, looked at the menu, and said, "Yes."
    2007-11-19 23:55:32
    139.   Ranma
    I'm crossing my fingers in the hopes that Arte Moreno quickly snatches up another would-be Dodger in the well-rounded form (geometrically speaking) of Miggy Cabrera. It would certainly put my mind at ease. Yet I can't help but wonder what would have been had it not been for our current and previous owners. Vlad Guerrero in right and Mike Scioscia wearing the skipper's cap.
    2007-11-19 23:55:58
    140.   Bob Timmermann
    56
    I was otherwise occupied and I'm off topic, but I gave "No Country for Old Men" a 7 out of 10.

    It was a big improvement from "Intolerable Cruelty" and "Ladykillers", but it's no "Fargo."

    2007-11-19 23:59:19
    141.   CanuckDodger
    138 -- That made me think the part of the film Monty Python's The Meaning Of Life in which a really fat man goes into a restaurant and eats till he explodes, and his blood, guts, and flesh rain all over everybody in the restaurant.
    2007-11-19 23:59:48
    142.   Greg Brock
    140 Wow, if it's no Fargo, it must be miles away from The Hudsucker Proxy, which, as we all know, is better than Fargo.
    2007-11-20 00:05:14
    143.   Vishal
    138 i don't suppose you were suggesting that mr. cabrera likes to go to a place with prix fixe...
    2007-11-20 00:06:02
    144.   Vishal
    140 different genre, to be sure, but their best work by far is lebowski.
    2007-11-20 00:07:58
    145.   natepurcell
    122

    for fun, I did this: http://tinyurl.com/2eewta

    That is a nasty lineup. I will pray for it tonight.

    2007-11-20 00:11:15
    146.   Greg Brock
    144
    Be very careful, Vishal. Fargo has funny accents and barren landscapes. And a fantastic score.

    It's the best Coen Brothers movie, once you disregard Hudsucker, Lebowski, Barton Fink, Raising Arizona, and Blood Simple.

    But the accents...Oh, the accents...Dontcha know! Best movie ever!

    2007-11-20 00:26:18
    147.   63Dodger
    Nate, I'm lighting a candle for your lineup tonight.
    2007-11-20 00:31:14
    148.   underdog
    The Dodgers would be better off acquiring Creed from The Office than Joe Crede, so I hope that's not in their plans. But we'll trade them Juan Pierre to solve their leftfielder leadoff hitter issues, sure.

    I watched the Broncos game on Tivo and just finished a little while ago, and this isn't directly a comment on the game but I invented a new, temporary drinking game tonight: take a swig anytime Steve Young or another ESPN analyst says the "Broncos (or Mike Shanahan) smelled blood in the water."

    I was hammered by the third quarter!

    Night.

    2007-11-20 01:02:27
    149.   overkill94
    146 Finally, someone that understand the overratedness of Fargo! I had a freakin' Minnesotan roommate in college so the accent meant nothing to me. What was I left with? Barren landscapes, a fantastic score, and a pretty boring plot. Sorry Fargo, your classic status is revoked 10 times over by yours truly.

    That being said, I'm really looking forward to seeing No Country for Old Men because it actually looks like a good movie. Plus, I've enjoyed a good amount of the other stuff I've seen from the Coens (Big Lebowski obviously, Miller's Crossing, Blood Simple, etc.)

    2007-11-20 01:04:40
    150.   thinkblue0
    148-

    The weird part about them going after Pierre is that they have Owens. I grew up with Owens, still talk to him regularly, and the guy is literally the equivalent of Pierre.

    I would literally take back the lowest low prospect they have for them to eat Pierre's contract.

    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2007-11-20 01:21:19
    151.   Bob Timmermann
    149
    I have a wood chipper fired up and ready to go to take care of any dissenters to my opinion.

    But I'm used to that from people here. Generally, compared to the rest of DT, I'm an uncultured country bumpkin.

    I'm waiting for someone to tell me that when I shouldn't go to the opera in Vienna to see "Don Giovanni" because Mozart was a hack. Then I will finally understand the culture of DT.

    2007-11-20 02:09:55
    152.   CanuckDodger
    For those who did not notice, Rosenthal updated his article about Cabrera. He now has a source telling him that the Angels' offer for Cabrera is Ervin Santana, Howie Kendrick, Chris Bootcheck, and a fourth player, whom Rosenthal says is "possibly" Nick Adenhart.

    So let's get this straight: a starting pitcher with a 2007 ERA near 6.00 whom plenty of Angels' fans hate and want to dump for a bag of balls because he always sucks pitching on the road, a glorified version of Tony Abreu, and a 29-year-old reliever with a 2007 ERA near 5.00. These are the big three. Seriously. Then there is a "fourth player" whom Rosenthal is only SPECULATING could be pitching prospect Adenhart, who is no better than James McDonald.

    Honestly, it's no wonder the Marlins are practically begging the Dodgers to get involved and bid up the price. Here's my offer to Florida: D.J. Houlton (whom I would honestly rather have in the Dodgers' rotation than Santana), Tony Abreu, Eric Hull, and as a "fourth player" I will throw in Justin Orenduff, not McDonald -- because I frankly don't even believe Rosenthal's speculation that the fourth guy in the Angels' offer is anybody as good as Adenhart, as Adenhart would be named if the fourth player was anybody that good, and not just a meaningless throw-in.

    2007-11-20 03:43:36
    153.   regfairfield
    It's now trolling to want Miguel Cabrera? Christ.

    Why is the common scenario: Cabrera gets fat, then sucks? How about, Cabrera remains fat, still hits? Or, Cabrera gets on a team that actually cares about him, he gets in shape.

    Hell, even if he becomes Mo Vaughn, Vaughn was productive until he was 32. That's eight years from now for Miguel Cabrera. I can live with that. And he won't become Mo Vaughn because Vaughn didn't even start hitting until he was 25.

    I love Matt Kemp, but it's really disengenous to compare a guys age 22 season in a hitters ballpark to an age 20 season in a pitchers park. If any of our young players become Miguel Cabrera, it would be truly amazing, but I wouldn't bet on anything like that happening. It's very unlikely Kemp will become Miguel Cabrera

    Now would I be willing to pull the trigger on Kemp/Kershaw/LaRoche? Maybe, maybe not. All I know is saying that saying you desire one the most talented hitters in baseball shouldn't be classified as trolling.

    2007-11-20 03:49:11
    154.   regfairfield
    Also, Kemp had 17 home runs all of 2006 and 14 in all of 2007 while spending a lot of time in Vegas. It's perfectly understandable that the James Projection would put him at 16 bombs if he was listed for 450-550 at bats.
    2007-11-20 05:04:48
    155.   D4P
    Those stadium renderings bring one word to mind:

    sprawl

    2007-11-20 05:59:29
    156.   CanuckDodger
    153 -- I don't know who you are addressing, but I don't recall anybody comparing Cabreara' age 20 season to Kemp's age 22 season. I compared Cabrera's age 21 season to James' projection for Kemp's 2008 season. I don't care if Kemp is is not going to BE Cabrera. I just know I agree with Logan White that Kemp can be a "superstar" and I want five more pre-free agency years of THAT guy plus LaRoche plus Kershaw rather than two years of Cabrera, which is the real issue and one you always avoid while you simply go on about how wonderful Cabrera is. Also, you dismiss the weight issue by saying he will hit, when it is his ability to play a position in the field that is relevent to a National League team. And where are the comparative stat projections you usually provide in your analyses? What is Cabrera's likely VORP over the next two years compared to Kemp's over the next five? LaRoche's over the next six? Kershaw's over the six years after he reaches the majors? The three of them together compared to Cabrera?
    2007-11-20 06:25:57
    157.   Jon Weisman
    To paraphrase Ken Arneson, I tend to think this was one of the poorer debates we've had here - with people on either side assuming the worst about either Cabrera or the Dodger prospects, cherrypicking facts and figures, to buttress their arguments. No one was completely right or wrong, but people were clearly talking past each other.

    Comment 85 started things by breaking rule 6, and people responded in kind. And the namecalling on both sides hardly helped.

    2007-11-20 06:31:14
    158.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
    I'm not very familiar with the various performance projections that are out there, but do they come with something analogous to standard deviations? That is, you might expect Kemp to OPS .873, but how variable are the projections? My sense is that any player (not talking about Kemp in particular) who still has a lot of upside is still very susceptible to the same amount of downside.

    In general, it does seem like people on this site overstate Cabrera's weight problem, while understating the possibility that any given young player flops.

    2007-11-20 06:40:17
    159.   Jon Weisman
    158 - But then you had another commenter chiding people for assuming that the Dodger prospects would succeed - and then, immediately, assuming they would fail. Even though some of them are past being prospects.
    2007-11-20 06:49:31
    160.   Penarol1916
    I'm going to have to defend "Intolerable Cruelty." Certainly not the best Coen Brothers movie, but it was not without its charms and a pretty likable farce. I don't really know why anyone would say that it would cause them to stop watching Coen Brothers' movies. I can see "Ladykillers" doing that to a person, but not "Intolerable Cruelty."
    2007-11-20 06:50:39
    161.   Terry A
    Ah, cooler heads prevailing. Such a nice thing.

    I've also seen a steady rise in Rule 1 violations around these parts lately, but that may just be the pre-holiday blues coming out in everyone.

    2007-11-20 06:52:37
    162.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
    What is the accepted definition of the term "prospect"? I'm guessing the standard usage involves the number of major league games played, and that certainly makes sense.

    In my mind (and maybe I'm thinking of something else), a prospect is a young player that has a highly variable expected performance. Judging by the comments here, there is huge variability on what we might expect Kemp, Kershaw, Laroche, etc. to accomplish. With each game played, that variability decreases, until we have a pretty good idea of what we've got. At this point, Kemp (and Loney, for that matter) has a lot less uncertainty (in either direction) than guys like Kershaw, Laroche, and others. But to me, Kemp is still a prospect (again, this might just be semantics). And to me, that's a good thing.

    2007-11-20 06:58:05
    163.   Daniel Zappala
    153 I think the trolling comes from repeated Rule 8 violations by the2pin. He/she has made the same point in numerous threads.
    2007-11-20 07:29:11
    164.   Daniel Zappala
    FAQ:

    1) Wouldn't it be great if the Dodgers acquired Player X?

    It depends on the package of players given up. Player X may be one of the best players in baseball, but for every player there is a price that is too high. For example, a request for Billingsley, Loney, Kemp, Kershaw, and Martin for just Player X, no matter how great, would be laughed at by every GM in the game. You also have to factor the current contract for Player X, and how soon he will become eligible for free agency. Trading for Player X requires a delicate balance between giving enough to talent to entice his current team and having enough talent left over to complement Player X and protect against the possibility that he leaves.

    2) Will any of the Dodger's prospects and young starters turn into stars?

    It depends on your definition of "star". If you mean one of the top 5 players at their position, then the Dodgers already have a star in Russell Martin. If you mean the best player in all of baseball, probably not. The Dodgers do have one of the best collections of young talent a team has developed in many years. Billingsley, Kemp and Loney have already demonstrated they are very good major league players, and LaRoche and Kershaw have fanastic track records in the minor leagues. All are players that are highly coveted by many teams, indicating they have a high potential to develop into great players.

    3) What should the Dodgers do?

    Ask, and you'll get lots of opinions. One of the strengths of this site is the diversity of opinions, backed by a sound understanding and evaluation of baseball performance. There are some commenters that are very knowledgeable about Dodger prospects who can give you their opinion on what packages they would accept to give up players they have been following for years.

    4) I have a great idea for what the Dodgers should do, may I share it?

    Yes! We would love to hear your opinion! Of course, you should be prepared for people who may disagree with you. Be ready to back up your opinion with facts that support your argument. If your opinion is unpopular you may feel alone in defending your position. Remember that the commenters here, though often strident, don't have anything personal against you.

    Try to keep your discussion civil and meaningful. Be prepared to listen as much as you are prepared to talk. A good rule of thumb is to state your opinion once, carry on a reasonable discussion about it, and then agree to disagree. Bringing up the same points repeatedly, in the same thread or new threads, will be seen as a violation of site rules.

    5) What are the site rules?

    Scroll down and look on the right-hand side for the banner that says "Thank you for not..." Basically, you shouldn't swear, and you should be nice to other people.

    2007-11-20 07:36:18
    165.   Penarol1916
    164. Great FAQ, but none of that has anything to do with the unfair maligning of "Intolerable Cruelty."
    2007-11-20 07:59:15
    166.   Bumsrap
    I watched Loney, Abrue, LaRoche, and Kemp play in the AFL and saw them take a few swings at Vero Beach and from those brief looks I admit I formed opinions early. One was that I really liked Loney and Abreu.

    I thought there were pitch locations that would get LaRoche consistently out and MLB pitchers would take advantage of those locations. I thought Kemp was exciting but hadn't found a swing that was going to work for him yet.

    It took only one swing from Joey Thurston to tell me he would never come close to succeeding and I couldn't understand how he ever got as far as he did.

    Regardless of the stats, until I see a player refine their swing and mitigate a weakness to me they are suspect. Kemp and LaRoche are still suspects for me while I believe Abreu and Loney will be very good.

    2007-11-20 08:02:57
    167.   Andrew Shimmin
    160- Brave man. I think I'd find it easier to disparage Don Giovanni than to defend Intolerable Cruelty.
    2007-11-20 08:06:52
    168.   D4P
    Is there anyone who thinks Bonds's trainer's refusal to testify doesn't make Bonds look more guilty? The trainer's lawyers had this to say:

    "He's never going to testify," his lead attorney Mark Geragos said, according to the Daily News.

    "He didn't like it there," added Paula Carny, a member of Anderson's defense team, according to the Daily News. "But all any of us have is what we believe is who we are and our word and integrity."

    What does his "word and integrity" have to do with it? If Bonds is innocent, and the trainer is gonna tell the truth about that, how is his integrity threatened?

    Ridiculous.

    2007-11-20 08:12:23
    169.   capdodger
    My main question after reading this thread is how does the acronym used in 44 not run afoul of rule one?

    Shouldn't it be MIL2MSSL2?

    2007-11-20 08:14:07
    170.   Jon Weisman
    169 - It is. Sometimes, I can't keep up.
    2007-11-20 08:16:10
    171.   capdodger
    170 Ah. Just checking. Can't be everywhere at once.
    2007-11-20 08:23:37
    172.   gpellamjr
    I don't think anybody who posts regularly on this site is "the voice of reason", because I think you all (again, referring to the regular posters) are voices of reason. Perhaps my reading of things is skewed by the grading that consumes my life, where I read papers composed by grown men and women that make no sense.

    We're all experiencing a great deal of anxiety about this offseason because we put way too much effort into the Dodgers. We are freaks. If the people we know (outside of our enabling inner circle of friends and family) found out how much time we spend watching baseball, or reading about it, we would be shunned by society. But the point is, we care for some reason.

    I was 20 years old before I realized that a Christian could be an intelligent person (and the smartest person I've ever known, it turns out, is a Christian-- what a shock to my youthful pride!), and 23 before I realized that a Republican, or a Fascist, or a Democrat could actually be a person who cared about people, but just had a different way of looking at it than I did. My point is that we tend to think that people whose views differ are either stupid or have some hidden motive, and that any evidence they bring to the table in support of their views is "cherry-picked" or misinterpreted. There is a great Homer Simpson quote (from a terrible episode, however), which I may be ruining here, since I'm citing it from memory, "Facts! Pff. Facts can be used to prove anything remotely true!" That's a truism that's become more and more apparent to me as I try to develop a dissertation topic.

    Anyway, when I hear that the Dodgers are "in the lead to get Cabrera", I get excited at the prospect of having Cabrera on the Dodgers, and scared of what the Dodgers will have to give up and what the lineup around him will look like. When I hear that the Angels are making a big push to get him, I am relieved that the Dodgers won't be able to give up the three best young players on the team to get him. Every post that talks about potential trades or free agent signings takes me through this same manic-depressive exasperation.

    My point is that you guys are all smart, and are all voices of reason, even if you misspell words a lot, or write "whom" and "whomever" in shockingly distasteful places. I enjoy it when somebody "trolls", because it brings out the best intelligent arguments I can use in discussion with my Yankee and Red Sox fan colleagues.

    2007-11-20 08:26:52
    173.   gpellamjr
    168 Bonds's trainer shares his name with the professor who has been primarily advising me on my MA thesis. He is the same one who labeled by authorial voice as "curmudgeonly and world-weary".
    2007-11-20 08:27:36
    174.   gpellamjr
    173 That is, "labeled my authorial voice..."
    2007-11-20 08:28:39
    175.   deburns
    There's a lot of good sense in 172 . I'm struck by the amount of bile, sometimes approaching venom, in posts coming from people who you would think all want the same result, however they may differ on how to get there. As Rodney King put it (as I recall), "why can't we all just get along?"
    2007-11-20 08:39:21
    176.   regfairfield
    For Canuck

    Kemp's WARP over the next four years (as a centerfielder). These are from the 2007 projections.

    2008: 5.3 (.292 EQA)
    2009: 5.4 (.293 EQA)
    2010: 4.9 (.291 EQA)
    2011: 4.9 (.293 EQA)

    The main thrust of the projection is that Kemp is already very good but won't improve much if he doesn't improve his plate disclipline.

    Cabrera:

    2008: 8.0 (.323)
    2009: 7.9 (.324)
    2010: 7.1 (.319)
    2011: 6.9 (.320)

    These will be better when the new PECOTA cards come in.

    2007-11-20 08:49:41
    177.   Benaiah
    176 - Bill James gets his projections out lightning quick, but I prefer ZIPS or PECOTA.

    PECOTA has % projections, where the 50% is the expected outcome but it shows how a player might underachieve or exceed that (Martin was better than his 80% projection for last year). It is almost undeniable that some of our young guys just aren't going to work out, the variance in prospect performance is too large for the die not to come up snake eyes eventually, on the other hand, I expect one or two to break out in a big way. Maybe Martin and Billingsley are those two already, but maybe its Laroche (best power and patience combo of anyone in our system) or Kemp.

    If we trade for Miggy, worst case scenario, we have Miguel Cabrera! But for me, I am hoping against hope for a sit on our hands offseason.

    2007-11-20 08:57:25
    178.   StolenMonkey86
    177 - I don't see Ned Colletti sitting on his hands.

    That said, I'd rather see us do something that improves the club. So I could buy a Miguel Cabrera trade.

    2007-11-20 09:01:20
    179.   D4P
    I was 20 years old before I realized that a Christian could be an intelligent person

    Yeah. We're not all morons.

    2007-11-20 09:04:09
    180.   bhsportsguy
    The real reason why Jon and Bob have separate blogs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgZvkB_i0xc

    Happy Anniversary!!

    2007-11-20 09:06:27
    181.   Sam DC
    180 I think common decency suggests that ought have been posted on The Griddle.

    :)

    2007-11-20 09:09:48
    182.   overkill94
    160 I'm with you Penarol, I actually enjoyed "Intolerable Cruelty" for what it was - an overstyled romance/mystery with plenty of fun moments. In fact, I thought it pulled off that style better than "O Brother Where Art Though?" did.
    2007-11-20 09:16:13
    183.   MC Safety
    25 Nice mine would probably look like this:

    1. Beginnings
    2. Make Me Smile
    3. 25 or 6 to 4
    4. Old Days
    5. Questions 67&68 ( there is some serious stuff going on the last two minutes of that song )

    2007-11-20 09:18:10
    184.   CajunDodger
    182 and all Coen posts:

    Thanks, Bob for your assessment of No Country for Old Men. The Coens are geniuses and tend to do comedy in a clever and subtle way (Raising Arizona, Lebowski), drama in a brooding way (Barton Fink, Miller's Crossing), and can get the absolute best performances out of their actors (have you seen Cloney any better than in O' Brother?).

    I am looking forward to No Country for Old Men because I liked Blood simple so much and felt that they do noir about as well as anyone.

    Is there any better site on earth than one where the Dodgers and the Coens are discussed at the same time?

    2007-11-20 09:18:40
    185.   berkowit28
    The LA Times sports section headline this morning is "Angels trolling for a bigger fish". Would anyone care to discuss the difference, if any, between "trolling" in that context and "trawling" - the word I would have used?
    2007-11-20 09:21:44
    186.   wireroom
    Geez, it sounds like there has been some intense Dodgers baseball dicussion the last few days.
    It seems like all the fun of baseball is turning into an all out war for supremacy with only the end outcome mattering. I get caught up in it as well as anyone, but sometimes I just have to watch it for what it is. Try and enjoy the game. Sometimes I just look at it like as that I am happy to get off of work on Friday, I get to head over to the ball park and have a few beers at the shortstop and hope the Dodgers play a good game.
    2007-11-20 09:24:42
    187.   Marty
    There's nothing subtle about Raising Arizona (Jon, I didn't start it).

    No Country is a very interesting movie. A lot bleaker than anything they've ever done IMO. I understand why a lot of people don't like the ending, but I was ok with it. It doesn't qualify as one of their best for me though.

    2007-11-20 09:25:50
    188.   Marty
    185 When I'm in a boat on a lake dragging a fishing line behind me, I call that trolling. Should I have been calling it trawling all this time?
    2007-11-20 09:27:59
    189.   CajunDodger
    187
    I guess when I say subtle, I mean that they are the anti-Faralleys.

    I have not been this excited to see a movie since the last Bourne movie was released. I heard that Bardem was worth the price of admission all by himself.

    2007-11-20 09:30:16
    190.   Daniel Zappala
    Trawling and trolling can both mean the same thing -- dragging a line behind a slow-moving boat. Trawling can also mean using a net that you drag along the bottom of the sea, or fishing with a special line that has numerous hooks attached at intervals.
    2007-11-20 09:33:16
    191.   ToyCannon
    So when did disagreeing with erroneous group think become "trolling"?

    2pin has put forth valid arguments for his beliefs that a fat 3rd baseman who has already proven that he can mash at an age level that would make Henry Aaron or Frank Robinson proud is preferable to seeing if Matt Kemp overcomes his plate discipline issue, if Andy LaRoche overcomes his shoulder and disk issues, and if Clayton Kershaw can survive the injury nexus. If that is trolling then I don't understand the concept.

    I understand that many of you are invested with the kids but a different viewpoint should be embraced instead of being shouted down.

    The idea that he has to continually make his point is trolling also seems silly since D4P makes the same points about the same subjects just about everyday or does anyone not know how he feels about Boras and NE?

    2007-11-20 09:34:37
    192.   dzzrtRatt
    164 The Dodgers do have one of the best collections of young talent a team has developed in many years.

    Something jumped out at me in this part of Daniel Zappala's comment, variations of which have been stated so often it's almost a truism.

    The word is "collection."

    There is no doubt that Cabrera is by any reasonable predictive model a better player now and likely to be a better offensive player in his career than Kemp, Loney or LaRoche will ever be. He's probably better than anyone in the Dodgers' system, probably better than anyone we've had since Gary Sheffield.

    But for a lot of fans, getting the best individual player will disrupt the romance of this emerging team, the idea that all of these guys are arriving at around the same time, which stirs memories of the great teams of the mid-50s and late-70s, who also emerged as a "collection."

    It goes beyond another truism, that baseball is a "team sport." It's part of the Dodger mythos that we should have a group of players all discovered around the same time who are trained in the "Dodger Way" to play baseball.
    In fact, there might not really be a "Dodger Way" anymore. The keepers of that tradition who are still with the team basically are gone except for Manny Mota and (ergh) Tom Lasorda. But as luck would have it, the mythos has been revived, thanks to Logan White's penetrating insight into amateur players, or maybe just thanks to God smiling on the Dodgers.

    So I think maybe I'm hanging onto Matt Kemp, LaRoche, Kershaw et. al. irrationally; and I'm not alone in this. Cabrera could be amazing, and I'm sure if this deal goes down, no matter how I might feel now, next July I will be happy about having him. But that doesn't change the fact that I am really uneasy about breaking up the flow of young talent developed in-house.

    Like Capt. Renault said to Rick in "Casablanca," it might turn out that a lot of the hard-headed stat geeks who hang around DT are actually "rank sentimentalists." But in at least two of the most stored and successful eras of Dodger history, rank sentimentalism worked.

    2007-11-20 09:36:23
    193.   CajunDodger
    By the way, everyone, here is the new, positive me:

    Colletti will not trade 3 of our best players for Cabrera or anyone else (good).
    He will sign an outfield bat, hopefully Jones, to play center to compensate for Pierre's arm (good).
    Pierre will not be traded, but will duplicate his second half numbers from last season and will get on base at a .350 clip (not great, but livable)
    Ethier will be the odd man out and will be traded for a package that will include a decent bullpen arm and perhaps a backup catcher.

    Ahhhh. A positive new day. I just hit the reset button on my cynicism meter, and it now reads zero.

    2007-11-20 09:40:40
    194.   Sam DC
    I agree with Toycannon that folks should be very careful writing off another commenter as a troll.

    I get that arguments can be very repetitive and that causes problems and can also violate site rules. But there is (at least some of the time) a difference between violating site rules and being a troll, especially for a new poster.

    I think that if folks are accused too readily of trolling, the discussion here will suffer.

    2007-11-20 09:43:27
    195.   Jacob L
    Somebody much further up suggested that we trade JP to the White Sox for a ham sandwich. If JP goes to Chicago, I want pizza or hot dogs or both.

    192 is a great post, BTW.

    2007-11-20 09:45:33
    196.   Benaiah
    187 - I really liked No Country for Old Men, so much so that it has given me a new appreciation for Fargo. The Brothers Coen are more and more clearly becoming moralist auteurs, with Fargo being the perfect companion piece to NCfOM. "Old Men" ends with a character who simply can't fathom how violent and cruel the world has become and so he tells of his dreams of peace in death. Compare that to Marge Gunderson's "I just don't understand, dont cha know there's more to life then a little money?" speech and you have their basic philosophy. Live simply, do good and you'll be happy. Llewelyn thought he was as bad as anyone, but no one survives that lifestyle, even Chigurh is the walking wounded.

    I need to see it again, but so far No Country for Old Men is my favorite movie of the best year for movies in recent memory.

    2007-11-20 09:46:25
    197.   Jon Weisman
    194 - I agree.
    2007-11-20 09:46:38
    198.   jystakes
    What is a "troll" and what is "trolling" in the context of its use on this website? I am probably guilty of being one by asking, but I want to know nonetheless.
    2007-11-20 09:47:39
    199.   MC Safety
    195- I'd take a couple of Chicago Fire dogs and a Squirt for JP in a heartbeat.
    2007-11-20 09:52:36
    200.   Daniel Zappala
    192 Half of me is a romantic, and yes, it would be really difficult for me to see this "collection" of talent broken up. But the more pragmatic side of me also worries, for a different set of reasons. I worry that a trade for Cabrera will leave the team thin. We become a team with a great star that doesn't ever win. And then things really fall apart if he leaves in free agency, e.g. signs with the Yankees or the Red Sox, teams with even more money than the Dodgers.

    If I were to pick a sentence that sums it up best for me, this is it:

    Trading for Player X requires a delicate balance between giving enough to talent to entice his current team and having enough talent left over to complement Player X and protect against the possibility that he leaves.

    Both my heart and my head say it will be difficult to make the trade without ruining a good thing.

    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2007-11-20 09:55:20
    201.   wireroom
    192 That is exactly how I feel about the situation. Eloquently said.
    2007-11-20 10:00:35
    202.   njr
    No Country is my favorite movie of the year so far. I have seen it twice already. To me, the last 20 minutes of the movie are what elevate it from a good movie to a great movie. Thank you Cormac McCarthy.

    I am a rank sentimentalist. I don't want to have to watch Marlins games to find out how some of my favorite members of what feels like my baseball family are doing.

    2007-11-20 10:01:32
    203.   Daniel Zappala
    198 A troll is typically someone who comes into a discussion and says something designed to provoke others into violent disagreement. Usually the person doing this gains some pleasure by causing havoc. It is usually easy to determine what to say that will set people off by observing for a while.

    I'd agree that we (myself included) have been a little strong to label someone as a troll, when in fact it was merely someone being repetitive and provocative, with little understanding of others' points of view. These things do not themselves make someone a troll -- it requires malicious intent.

    2007-11-20 10:01:40
    204.   Bumsrap
    199 - And if you eat that Chicago fire dog that might be one heck of a heart beat.
    2007-11-20 10:01:57
    205.   ToyCannon
    192
    Without Jimmy Wynn, Mike Marshall, and Andy Messersmith the homegrown kids of 1974 would have been staring up at the Big Red Machine for several more years.
    The homegrown kids Garvey, Lopes, Russel, Cey, and Buckner never had a season like Wynn had in 74, though Cey came close several times. Mike Marshall simply had one of the greatest relief seasons in Dodger history. If any relief pitcher tried to come close to his 208 innings their arms would have fallen off.

    The current kids by themselves, may or may not be enough to get us to the next level but make no mistake the past homegrown youth movement that everyone seems to pine for did not do it on it's own.

    2007-11-20 10:03:06
    206.   Jon Weisman
    196 - I keep meaning to write my Screen Jam take on this year's movies, but I can't seem to find the time. But I'll tease it by saying that I think this year's movies are a clear cut below last year's. No Country is a perfect example - a well-crafted movie but one that for me has little resonance. A movie that offers such a bleak assessment of life isn't much more useful to me than a movie that offers a completely rosy assessment of life.

    American Gangster, No Country, There Will Be Blood - these are leading Oscar contenders, based on their craft. But they all left me cold. Last year, there were plenty of well-crafted movies that had the added value of being more emotionally complex. Little Children, for example.

    I think the underrated films of this year are films like Lars and the Real Girl, Waitress, Into the Wild, The Namesake. There is darkness and light and well-told stories. Ambition and craft aren't everything. The Namesake not only didn't do justice to the book but won't get even a glance at Oscar time, but I'd recommend that over No Country.

    Even Juno, which has some overly precious dialogue, is something I would value over No Country.

    I think this year has seen a lot of good movies, but lacks a single great one. And if Atonement isn't it (I haven't seen it yet), I don't think we're going to get one. I just feel I had more satisfying experiences going to the movies last year.

    That's my personal feeling - it's not really objective.

    2007-11-20 10:03:40
    207.   dzzrtRatt
    195 Thanks. 192 would have been even better if I hadn't described the Dodgers 70s and 50s teams as two of the "most stored" eras. I meant "storied."

    I can't wait to see "No Country..." but it'll be the DVD. No one in my family will go anywhere near a movie they fear is disturbingly violent.

    I liked "Intolerable Cruelty" as much as I liked most Coen Bros. movies. I would watch it again right now. George Clooney is brilliant (as he is in "O Brother..."). How could you not laugh at Billy Bob Thornton's character? I love the vision of lawyers freaking out if a document protecting their client is torn up: "You're Exposed!"

    Also, it's one of the few recent cinematic portraits of Los Angeles that has anything fresh to say about it.

    It's not one of their classics, but it's a fine comedy. It doesn't deserve to be lumped with the dreadful remake of "The Ladykillers." (But if you have a chance, definitely watch the original "Ladykillers" with Alec Guinness. That's a classic.)

    2007-11-20 10:13:23
    208.   bigcpa
    The Times article says the Dodgers and Giants are both after Tejada. Cabrera aside, Ned going after Lowell and Tejada seems to confirm the "gaping hole at 3b" theory.
    2007-11-20 10:14:53
    209.   Benaiah
    206 - This was a particularly bleek year at the movies, but that could be a symptom of a guilty national conscience. I think we have agreed to disagree many times in the past, but for me, movies like "Lars and the Real Girl", "Little Children" and "The Namesake" seem like trifles compared to thundering cinematic expression like "Eastern Promises", "No Country for Old Men", "The Host", "Into the Wild", "The Darjeeling Limited", "Death Proof", "Ratatouille", "Gone Baby, Gone" and "Zodiac". Those movies showed me genre innovation, thematic richness, emotional poignancy and jaw dropping cinematic expression. This year at the movies has been a real pleasure, I can't think of a better year.
    2007-11-20 10:17:24
    210.   63Dodger
    For me, what makes Fargo one of the top Coen movies is William Macy's portrayal of a man imploding. One of the best acting jobs ever. Fargo isn't just entertainment, it's great art.

    Dontcha know.

    2007-11-20 10:20:05
    211.   fiddlestick
    If we trade for a Chicago Fire dog, I shall call it "Cuatemoc."
    2007-11-20 10:23:27
    212.   rockmrete
    I am torn, as much as I would like MC in blue, I would much rather remove Pierre from the starting line up and insert A Jones in his place. If I could have both at the expense of Kemp, LaRoache, and an other high prospect I would very happy and sad.
    2007-11-20 10:24:20
    213.   Terry A
    When I was seventeen, it was a very good year.
    2007-11-20 10:26:30
    214.   Jon Weisman
    209 - I think we just seek fundamentally different things. It's hard to disagree with much of your comment, except to say that the idea that your group of movies (with the exception of Into the Wild and selected moments from Rat and No Country) had more emotional poignancy than mine seems untenable.
    2007-11-20 10:26:42
    215.   CajunDodger
    210
    I gotta say that the best scene in the movie for me is the look on Peter Stomare's character's face when he is watching the soap opera right before the wood chipper scene.

    Absolutely classic.

    2007-11-20 10:27:50
    216.   LogikReader
    Mornin' All,

    Time to interrupt again. I still don't like how the KCAL, in the 21st century, tape delays East Coast Laker games. I know why they do it, but I still think it's unfortunate. In fact, I remember there was a year when KCAL tried to show the games live, but then went back to tape delay again.

    It's also inconsistent. KCAL shows Dodger games live no matter where they play. If the Dodgers play in New Zealand, that game is going to be on at 2am!

    2007-11-20 10:32:14
    217.   Bob Timmermann
    216
    KCAL (or whoever has the contract) has been tape-delaying East Coast Laker games since Hector was a pup.

    Dodgers games aren't tape delayed because people historically have expected them to be live.

    But until the late 1970s and early 1980s, there weren't that many games from either team televised to make a difference.

    Hector was not a pup in the late 1970s for those not scoring at home.

    2007-11-20 10:32:26
    218.   CajunDodger
    209 , 214
    It may be a case of making an emotional connection to a movie. I saw most of your list and generally agree with Benaiah. There have been other "good years" where I saw the movies that the critics were discussing and just didn't think the total body of work measured up to being great. It sounds like that may be the way Jon feels.
    2007-11-20 10:33:38
    219.   Marty
    The bar scene with Tommy Nakajima is great.
    The Feliciano scene is great.
    The scene with the man sweeping the driveway is great.
    The kidnap scene is great.
    The scene where Buscemi buries the money is great.
    The interview with the hookers is great "Go Bears"
    The Smörgåsbord scene is great.
    2007-11-20 10:36:48
    220.   Bob Timmermann
    219
    Mike ...

    Mike Yanagita!!!

    He works for Honeywell. They're a good group you know. For an engineer, you could do a lot worse.

    2007-11-20 10:37:31
    221.   Jon Weisman
    219 - Yeah, I can't really understand how people dismiss Fargo as a movie that just makes fun of people with an accent. The bar scene alone as much heft as anything in No Country.
    2007-11-20 10:39:33
    222.   Marty
    Wow, I can't believe I missed the name by that much
    2007-11-20 10:41:02
    223.   Benaiah
    214 - I think I know what you mean, the emotions dredged up by a movie like, "Gone Baby, Gone" are entirely dissimilar to those in "The Namesake" but I felt a soul sick empathy that nearly made me cry in the final shot of that movie. Or when the family eats dinner together in "The Host", a bit of magical realism that was perfectly happy and melancholy at once. Or the funeral scene (or the sequence in the convent) in "The Darjeeling Limited" or the initiation scene in "Eastern Promises" or the whole first half of "Sunshine". I felt like I was drowning in what the characters were feeling, yet because it was all expressed through faces, acting, cinematography and score it felt like I had decided to feel for them rather than being forced to.

    I think this year at the movies the directors took more chances and went for something beyond a good recreation of someone's life and attempted to leave you with a small amount of ambiguity about what it all means. The search for meaning in art is pretty close to a religion for me, and sometimes I almost felt like I was in church.

    2007-11-20 10:41:38
    224.   dzzrtRatt
    209 ...a guilty national conscience.

    Is there such a thing as a "national conscience?" And if there is, why is it feeling more guilty this year than others?

    Also, what does this mean to foreign distribution? If France likes "No Country..." does that mean they have a guilty national conscience too? Or does it mean they are ratifying that we should have one?

    I think most people who go around feeling guilty, if they do, because of bad stuff they're doing in their personal lives. Those who agree with the current policies of the government, if that's what you're driving at, by definition don't feel guilty, and those who disagree can easily let themselves off the hook by saying "Don't blame me, I voted for..." somebody else.

    Besides, except for "American Gangster," I don't think the mass audience is supporting a lot of the movies being discussed here -- and gangster movies have been winners in America since the 30s. Unless you're saying "Bee Movie" reflect a guilty national conscience.

    2007-11-20 10:42:04
    225.   Telemachos
    My four fave movies so far (in no particular order) are: No Country, There Will Be Blood, Zodiac.... and Ratatouille. (Which one doesn't fit the theme?) Heh.

    All of them have flaws, but they're striving to be great -- and mostly get there. The conclusion of No Country (which flabbergasted me on the first viewing) feels more appropriate and part of the film when I saw it a second time. TWIB is absolutely tremendous for about 3/4 of the film, then it starts to sag and meander, and the final scene is so loopy and over-the-top I was ready to dismiss it entirely... until the last line, which redeems it to some degree.

    American Gangster was well-crafted and entirely un-original. I felt I was watching a compilation reel of the last 30 years of gangster movies.

    Haven't seen Juno, Lars, and some of the other contender-fare yet.

    2007-11-20 10:42:41
    226.   wireroom
    206 Lars and the Real Girl was one of the most unique ideas I have ever coem across. I could never have thought of an idea like the one in that film.
    2007-11-20 10:44:57
    227.   LogikReader
    216

    I was hoping you could offer some clarity, Bob. I appreciate the help. Until a few years ago, radio and TV were simulcast. Now they are separate broadcasts, but despite this, the radio tends to be delayed along with TV if the game is played out East.

    It's just weird to watch a basketball game knowing that what you saw happened an hour ago.

    2007-11-20 10:46:54
    228.   CajunDodger
    226
    I felt that way about Stranger Than Fiction last year. That was my favorite of 2006.
    2007-11-20 10:47:51
    229.   silverwidow
    Perhaps the "troll" label was applied to that poster because he flatly said James Loney was Shea Hillenbrand in a previous discussion.

    I'd never take someone with opinion seriously.

    2007-11-20 10:48:19
    230.   Jon Weisman
    225 - This Week In Blood started to falter for me halfway through, but I thought the first half was tremendous and I was fine with the ending.

    Ratatouille, which I talked about on Screen Jam months ago ... I think I disagree on that with people as much as anything. Visually stunning with absolutely ordinary performances, and except for the climax with Ego, nothing exceptional in the way of a story for me. I liked it enough, but I can't believe this is the "best-reviewed movie of the year." And god, did I hate that opening scene with the old woman.

    Gone Baby Gone - so many despicable people, I lost interest. And I spent much of the whole movie wondering why Morgan Freeman was in it, so it sort of spoiled the ending. Worthy subject of a film, but I wouldn't even concede this was innovative or interesting from a filmmaking standpoint.

    2007-11-20 10:48:24
    231.   silverwidow
    229 *that opinion
    2007-11-20 10:50:25
    232.   the2pin
    I seem to have rocked the boat. Honestly, I am surprised that more people aren't demanding a major offseason move.

    I now understand that people on this forum love the young players. But if you find yourself wondering why teams seem to be asking so much more from the Dodgers, have you stoped to question whether you are overvauling Dodger players?

    I think Kemp and Billinsgley could be All-Stars and the others will probably be good players. But notice my use of "could". Moreover, it isn't even that I want to trade our young players -- it is that I fear what Coletti will do if he does not
    trade them.

    If we trade some guys and get Johan or Cabrera back -- depending on the deal -- that may make us a contender. But if we don't make a move? Look at the market. Hunter looks like he's gone. Dodgers are making a push for Rowand and Crede? Rowand and Crede! I couldn't make this stuff up!

    How does that get LaRoche more playing time? Or aleviate the outfield logjam?

    I'll sit and watch the situation unfold. This is not a forum that welcomes dissent.

    2007-11-20 10:50:32
    233.   wireroom
    My top Coen Bros. movie in order.
    1. Lebowski
    2. Fargo
    3. Intolerable Cruelty
    4. Millers Crossing
    5. O' Brother.
    2007-11-20 10:51:35
    234.   MC Safety
    225 Totally agree about American Gangster. I was expecting it to be a bit better. King of New York is the best gangster flick for me. Loved Christopher Walken in that.
    2007-11-20 10:52:27
    235.   LogikReader
    227

    interesting note: in the time span that Dodgers Radio and TV switched over a dozen stations, the Lakers road games have been on KHJ/KCAL for over 30 years, the Laker Home games have been on Prime Ticket/FSN for over 20 years, and Lakers Radio has been on KLAC for 30 years.

    ---

    I can't speak to most of the movies being discussed here, but I hope there will be enough inventory to last through the WGA strike.

    ---

    I also hope Hunter finalizes that contract with NedCo's dream team, the White Sox :)

    2007-11-20 10:53:34
    236.   MC Safety
    Anyone seen Control, the movie about Ian Curtis of Joy Division?
    2007-11-20 10:53:40
    237.   Eric Stephen
    217 I haven't heard "since Hector was a pup" for quite some time! Thanks for bringing back a favorite Chickism of mine.
    2007-11-20 10:53:43
    238.   wireroom
    227 The delay is cool for me because I don't get home from work until 5:30.
    2007-11-20 10:56:54
    239.   Jon Weisman
    232 - I think you're mischaracterizing the disagreement. There are many people who welcome a trade for Cabrera and are even willing to part with young players for him. They just don't agree with your price.

    Meanwhile, your comments for the most part have said if the Dodgers don't make a trade, the team will never win. That's a strong statement that invites some heavy disagreement.

    I do welcome dissent, but I realize there can be a tyranny of the majority. At the same time, just as some people may have overreacted to your comments, I think you've misread those of some others. You tend to paint everyone here the same. I myself wrote a post showing how open I was to a Cabrera trade. ToyCannon has been pushing to get Cabrera for ages. And so on.

    I think if you're in the minority viewpoint, you're in a tough spot here. But I don't think anyone should assume there are only two viewpoints on an issue.

    2007-11-20 10:57:39
    240.   Jon Weisman
    236 - I thought Control was excellent.
    2007-11-20 11:00:50
    241.   D4P
    I don't believe that Management has given up on LaRoche from a stats/performance perspective. There's gotta be something else, along character/attitude lines.

    Wasn't there something in the news about how LaRoche wasn't doing the exercises he was supposed to do for his back?

    2007-11-20 11:02:29
    242.   MC Safety
    240 Awesome, thanks Jon. Do you know off the top if it's still showing?
    2007-11-20 11:03:43
    243.   Eric Stephen
    232 it is that I fear what Coletti will do if he does not trade them

    I think this is the key point, that we are all in fear to some degree of what Colletti will do.

    If he trades the kids for Cabrera or Santana, great, but does he trade too much talent? If he trades the kids for Tejada or Crede (sorry to Tejada to lump him in there), that would not be good.

    I agree signing Rowand doesn't really help anything unless it's to directly replace Pierre.

    Regarding Billingsley, he has posted a 3.49 ERA in 237 major league innings. His 130 ERA+ over 2006-2007 is the 14th best in baseball over that span. Based on performance alone, he's already an all-star.

    2007-11-20 11:04:51
    244.   CajunDodger
    232
    I disagree with the statement that this is not a place for dissent. Last night was one of the more heated discussions I have seen here, but it was one of hundreds of disagreements that I have seen/been a part of on this site.

    There definitely needs to be more self-policing with regards to the rules, but I do think that this is one of the most civil places to post opinions in the Dodgersphere.

    2007-11-20 11:07:39
    245.   Disabled List
    Control was my favorite movie of the year so far, although I'm probably biased because I love the music.
    2007-11-20 11:11:21
    246.   das411
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ...as you were, gonna go hang at Bob's (or Mike C's!) for a while...

    2007-11-20 11:13:10
    247.   Eric Stephen
    I apologize if this was talked about over the weekend, but Diamond Leung reported the following on Friday:

    Tsao also claimed that he could have come off the disabled list quicker if the Dodgers had allowed him to use some Chinese medicine that had previously worked for his shoulder.

    Some sort of dispute always seems to come up regarding Dodger injuries. It's really frustrating.

    2007-11-20 11:13:53
    248.   dzzrtRatt
    241 I think this is the area where Ned gets irrational. If LaRoche's flaking out on back exercises is actually the reason, it's more of a rationalization. He basically does not believe in handing a kid a job, even if the alternative is spending too much money on a mediocre veteran. It doesn't mean he wants to trade the kid. He agrees the kid has talent, and expects him to start...someday. But the precipitating event that gives the kid his shot is usually something bad, either an injury or a prolonged slump on the part of the incumbent, that puts Colletti's proverbial back against the wall. At that point, he gets out the Maalox, he gets out the blindfold, he gets out the binky, he leaves a message for his insurance agent, he kisses his wife goodbye as if for the last time and he lets...the kid...start...oh, God...please don't hit it to him...I can't watch...

    If all goes well, he feels like a genius and he is very relieved. But if it doesn't, it just confirms his prejudice.

    2007-11-20 11:14:21
    249.   Benaiah
    224 - I don't think people need to walk around feeling guilty for there to be a guilty national conscience. In anything, Art would be a prime place for a such a concept to demonstrate itself. Considering how many movies this year show sense of hopelessness ("No Country for Old Men"), a situation with only bad choices (Gone Baby, Gone) or even just how people build lives on the suffering of nameless thousands (American Gangster), I can't help but feel that this is a reflection of the current national situation. The fact that movies that aren't art in any way (Bee Movie for example), but just a way to pass the time for the great unwashed masses, don't show these themes isn't surprising. Those aren't a cultural barometer, just a survey of the least common denominator.
    2007-11-20 11:14:52
    250.   Jonny6
    Has anyone that has seen No Country also read the book? If so, what did you think?

    I am overly devoted to McCarthy and was solidly disappointed with the movie version of All the Pretty Horses and I am already lamenting the coming movie version of The Road. But I've got high hopes for No Country; it seems like one of the few novels by McCarthy that could translate well to the big screen. Problem now is that I am going to have go solo to see it. I convinced my wife, who absolutely loathes violent films, to see Eastern Promises based on the favorable reviews. That pretty much killed my picking out our movie choices for the next year or so.

    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2007-11-20 11:15:09
    251.   Bluebleeder87
    206

    Are you gonna write your thoughts on the movie "Control" Jon?

    2007-11-20 11:16:49
    252.   Jon Weisman
    250 - Alex Belth did. Check the recent Bronx Banter archives.

    251 - I don't have anything profound to say about it. I just thought it was really well done and affecting.

    2007-11-20 11:18:15
    253.   Ken Noe
    While I tried to write a long, meaty post, Eric Stephen 243 and Jon 239 expressed my ideas better than I did. Cabrera yes, but not at a price other teams won't pay. "Trade boldly and win now" hasn't won a playoff series in two decades. FWIW, I don't expect the trade as outlined in the press anyway.

    As for fear, you bet. I fear something akin to what I feel watching Martinez, Franco, Konerko, Piazza, and LoDuca win series for other teams.

    2007-11-20 11:18:34
    254.   D4P
    248
    Despite what Bob thinks, Colletti is a perfect fit for the Giants front office.

    The Dodgers front office when the team is stocked with unprecedented young talent?

    Not so much.

    2007-11-20 11:20:51
    255.   Eric Stephen
    No Dodger received as much as a 10th place vote for MVP. Not even Martin! In fact, no catcher received a single vote. When is the last time that happened?
    2007-11-20 11:23:57
    256.   Andrew Shimmin
    There are more prosaic reasons for preferring the collection of young talent to Cabrera. Balancing talent across every (or most) positions, instead of stacking it all at one or two makes a team more resistant to being destroyed by injuries or slumps.
    2007-11-20 11:26:30
    257.   dzzrtRatt
    255 Martin would've done better in the voting if the D's hadn't fallen apart at the end of the season. It's hard to say anyone is MVP material on a team could barely break .500, unless the player had overwhelming stats. Martin's also one of those guys whose value is clearer if you watch his team a lot.
    2007-11-20 11:26:39
    258.   Andrew Shimmin
    Isn't Bee Movie for kids? Not that I object to calling them the unwashed masses or the least common denominator, but, still. . .
    2007-11-20 11:27:50
    259.   regfairfield
    256 It also makes it harder to improve the team.

    The Cabrera debate should be one of the more interesting subjects to come to the Dodgers in a long time. There are tons of pros and cons on each side and it would take years to find out who really wins the deal. Shame so much of it has devolved into "he's fat".

    2007-11-20 11:28:37
    260.   63Dodger
    232 I've been reading this forum for a while now, and I've gotten the impression that intelligent dissent is quite welcome. Just because you can't get a bunch of posts agreeing with your position doesn't mean it isn't being taken seriously. I have gotten the impression that Dodgerland is a little less sold on Cabrera than at first. I certainly have been swayed by the points different people have made about his high cost, potential value, etc. When someone first whispered his name in my ear I said "get him!" and then when people started pointing out just what it would take, and what he might or might not bring to the team, I saw him differently. Personally, I'd still like to see him on the team for a number of reasons (some of them can't be mapped on a grid, like how much fun it can be to watch him play) but not at the price being bandied about.
    2007-11-20 11:29:56
    261.   Penarol1916
    249. This is where I vehemently disagree with you. How in the world can these pieces of art reflect a guilty national conscience when they don't speak to most people at all? They can speak to the artists own feelings of guilt, but if the "unwashed masses" don't feel the guilt, then how can there be a guilty national conscience? Do the opinions of only the artistic and intellectual elite count when talking about what matters in this country? To me, a survey of the least common denominator is a much more reflective cultural barometer than the latest middle-brow clap-trap that so-called intellectual critics are trumpeting.

    And for the record, I did not see "Bee Movie" but from the reviews that I read, it does seem to dwell at least partly on how humans have built lives on the backs of thousands, namely by stealing honey.

    2007-11-20 11:32:57
    262.   underdog
    Control was excellent; the lead was perfect. It's still playing - here in SF at least...

    Btw, if you missed Elvis Mitchell's interview with Ridley Scott on The Treatment (KCRW), download the podcast on iTunes or KCRW.org - great chat. They talk about Blade Runner quite a bit, too.

    I think Before the Devil Knows You're Dead will make my top 10, and certainly one of the year's top 5 screenplays. Good double feature: That, and The Lookout.

    I much prefer Movie Thoughts to Worried Thoughts (About the Next Dodger Move).

    2007-11-20 11:33:03
    263.   Andrew Shimmin
    It also makes it harder to improve the team.

    Oh to have such problems!

    2007-11-20 11:33:11
    264.   63Dodger
    259 Being fat kinda makes it hard to play your position, no matter what talent you may possess. Can't field properly, can't run the bases...
    2007-11-20 11:35:14
    265.   regfairfield
    255 I'd take Penny as MVP before Martin. Dude was fifth and pitching VORP along with being sixth in hitting VORP amongst pitchers.

    264 Can still put up a 1.000 OPS...

    2007-11-20 11:37:46
    266.   MC Safety
    262 Thanks. It should be playing in LA then as well.
    2007-11-20 11:38:11
    267.   underdog
    I will say one thing in defense of the "Cabrera is too fat" debate - and I'm one of those nervous about acquiring him, more for how much the Dodgers are being asked for than what he represents. From what I've read about and from him this offseason, he's making a concerted effort to improve his workout regimen, to cut down on body fat, to come into camp in much better shape. He sounds like he's improved his attitude and is working hard to improve his body. At least from some quotes from him I'd read recently, and other reports... I'm still apprehensive about a move, again because of the potential players the Dodgers would have to fork over. But if the price comes down, I'd have no hesitation whatsoever.
    2007-11-20 11:40:50
    268.   Andrew Shimmin
    265- His defense is horrible, though, right? His bat plays anywhere, but his glove at 3B will cost runs. Those should count, too.
    2007-11-20 11:41:09
    269.   Jon Weisman
    262 - I've got the BTDKYD screener - will watch over the weekend if I can get the kids to bed early enough.

    264 - The guy's not exactly Orson Welles. Something tells me he'll overcome it.

    2007-11-20 11:41:40
    270.   MC Safety
    Who's bigger Big Papi or Piggy?
    2007-11-20 11:42:48
    271.   Jon Weisman
    I'm as convinced about Cabrera's weight regimen as I was about Odalis Perez's, or Mark Hendrickson's shrink, or Brett Tomko's new pitch. But it's not all or nothing. A diminished Cabrera is still a superstar. That doesn't mean I want him at all costs, but there are degrees here.
    2007-11-20 11:43:17
    272.   Eric Stephen
    265 I agree re: Penny, but I figured Martin would be the most likely to get some ancillary MVP votes.
    2007-11-20 11:46:09
    273.   regfairfield
    268 Oh, it's a huge issue. He should be playing left or first, but he's still a 55-60 run player at worst, and the Dodgers best players might do that at their best.
    2007-11-20 11:49:29
    274.   Andrew Shimmin
    I remember Brett Tomko's new pitch! Good times.
    2007-11-20 11:52:57
    275.   D4P
    I remember how Hendrickson wasn't supposed to throw a pitch until he had emotionally recovered from the previous one. Life was simpler then.
    2007-11-20 11:55:11
    276.   Fallout
    267 underdog
    he's making a concerted effort to improve his workout regimen, to cut down on body fat, to come into camp in much better shape. He sounds like he's improved his attitude and is working hard to improve his body.

    Who knows how he'll take care of himself once the season starts. He may keep it up or he may use his improved body to party harder at night.

    2007-11-20 11:56:45
    277.   Jon Weisman
    Control was playing at 27 theaters nationwide last week.
    2007-11-20 11:57:24
    278.   fanerman
    My biggest concern about MCAB (which seems to be the new supercool nickname) is trading "too much" for him. This is a distrust thing with NedCo. Of course we won't know who "wins" the trade for a long time, but when I think of NedCo and trades, I think of Tampa Bay. And we did not get particularly good bargains there. I think of NedCo's apprehension to playing unproven guys a sign that he devalues them, and properly valuing players is pretty important when making trades.

    I'm aware you rightfully have to overpay for a superstar, and that 1 "great" player is probably better than 3 "good" players. I'm not against getting MCAB, but I'm hesitant with NedCo pulling the strings.

    People who know more about baseball than I aren't too concerned with MCAB's weight. I'm sure he'll continue to hit, but I'm slightly worried about his weight affecting his defense. Can he be an average-ish 3B?

    Part of me wants to stick with the homegrown guys, because they're actually good (if not great). But I do see how getting the superstar middle-of-the-order bat would be huge.

    2007-11-20 11:58:57
    279.   Bob Timmermann
    262
    I much prefer Movie Thoughts to Worried Thoughts

    Remember that it takes a worried man to sing a worried song. I'm worried now, but I won't be worried long.

    2007-11-20 12:00:48
    280.   underdog
    271 Eh, I'm giving it more hope than that; perhaps he will ultimately fade back into Jaba the Hutt's Diet, but for now I'm giving him benefit of the doubt. I'm still in the Give LaRoche a Chance Club, but there's no doubt about Cabrera's hitting. I felt like his intentions to improve were genuine, but maybe it was just his agent whispering in his ear.

    PS: Control's playing at the Landmark in Sta Monica.
    (And at the Clay in SF...)

    2007-11-20 12:01:57
    281.   njr
    It's amazing how diverse the opinions of intelligent sensitive people can be when it comes to movies. I thought Lars and the Real Girls was a near perfect idea for a movie and a very good script script that were poorly executed. The final product struck me as sort of trite and contrived. To me, it's a very dark idea, and about very real pain. But they played too much of the movie for laughs. That said, it had some wonderful moments in it. And Ryan Gosling was amazing.

    I agree with Benaiah that it's a very strong year for darklys themed movies. I also love me some romantic comedies, but but they haven't been coming through this year.

    I was incredibly moved by No Country. To me, it was so much about the sadness of seeing your world change, and that's what touched me.

    2007-11-20 12:03:06
    282.   regfairfield
    Also, how many of you that put that much stock in Miguel's weight worry about Broxton and Bills?

    Obviously, a lot of it more of it is centered in their legs, but 6' 245 and 6'3'' 290 puts you at best one lazy offseason away from Fat Toad status.

    2007-11-20 12:03:16
    283.   das411
    (...speaking of Movie Thoughts, did anybody else see "Pu-239" the other night?)
    2007-11-20 12:04:03
    284.   underdog
    279 - "Twenty-one years, to pay my awful fine"...

    Doesn't that aptly sum up the Dodgers?

    2007-11-20 12:05:52
    285.   wireroom
    279 Man, this guy named Ben Vaughn sings that song you are quoting. Who is the original artist? Do you know?
    2007-11-20 12:08:08
    286.   Jon Weisman
    Astros signed Geoff Blum.
    2007-11-20 12:10:35
    287.   Benaiah
    261 - I don't think the average person needs to walk around thinking "I feel so guilty for Hurricane Katrina" for the current situation of the US to feel dark, ominous and perhaps even hopeless to the aggregate population. That our current national climate is reflected in our cinema doesn't even seem like a debatable point (No Country for Old Men very explicitly has an Iraq reference). As for the "latest middle-brow clap-trap that so-called intellectual critics are trumpeting" I don't think many would call a Pulitzer prize winner like Cormac McCarthy middlebrow. The fact that most of the country doesn't watch these movies or doesn't like them would seem to point at them either being high-brow (your definition of high-brow on Screenjam seemed to have unpopularity as a necessary component) or just not very good. I certainly take the former opinion, but you are free to take the latter.
    2007-11-20 12:13:35
    288.   63Dodger
    285 I recommend Ben Vaughn's "Designs in Music" for whatever ails ya. It'll take those worried thoughts away, send you back in time to the Big Blue Wrecking Crew days.
    2007-11-20 12:16:59
    289.   underdog
    285 A lot of people sang that song, including the Carter Family and Johnny Cash, and Willie Nelson, and Devo(!). It's an old blues song that dates back at least to the 1930s...
    2007-11-20 12:17:16
    290.   fanerman
    282 I suppose one difference is that we're not trading other (slimmer) players to acquire them, since we already have them.

    Though, my fears about MCAB's weight have been quelled for the most part. Either way (trade or no trade) I'll end up rationalizing it as "for the good of the Dodgers." The thought of having to give up Kemp/Kershaw/LaRoche is just difficult.

    2007-11-20 12:17:40
    291.   AlmostGagne
    I'll throw this out there:
    Maybe Miguel Cabrera's defense isn't THAT awful...
    He ranked 6th in the NL in defensive win shares for 3rd basemen last year. While his 2.9 defensive shares are by no means stellar, it puts him ahead of guys like Garrett Atkins and Edwin Encarnacion. That to me sounds like he's a serviceable thirdbaseman...for now at least. Besides, if M-Cab ends up as a Dodger won't throwing to Loney help him cut down on his errors?
    2007-11-20 12:19:10
    292.   underdog
    282 I worry about Broxton's weight sometimes, and Penny's (though he seemed to improve that a bit this past season). But they're also power pitchers. Being too overweight is a problem, but being big and stocky and a little pudgy doesn't seem to hurt them much. It seems like a 3rd basemen needs to be a bit leaner than that, to play the field with the right range.
    2007-11-20 12:19:48
    293.   D4P
    Besides, if M-Cab ends up as a Dodger won't throwing to Loney help him cut down on his errors?

    He'd probably be throwing to Nomar.

    2007-11-20 12:20:31
    294.   Jon Weisman
    If you've seen "No Country."

    http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2007/11/26/071126sh_shouts_ephron

    2007-11-20 12:20:37
    295.   fanerman
    293 Oh that's pretty pessimistic, even for you.
    2007-11-20 12:21:52
    296.   underdog
    I know this was mentioned earlier, but how does Russell Martin not get a single MVP vote, even a third place point? Brandon Phillips got a vote. No love for Russell?
    2007-11-20 12:22:31
    297.   Penarol1916
    A national feeling of hopelessness (which most surveys seem to indicate is becoming a reality to even to average member of the "unwashed masses") is very different from a national guilty conscience, which is what you claimed this was earlier. That makes the debated completely different. Actually, my definition of highbrow had unintelligibility as a necessary component, which would thus lead to unpopularity. More active dislike than just plain unpopularity.

    As to whether or not our national mood is reflected in our cinema, well of course, but only if you include all cinema, and not just some snobbish interpretation of what you consider art. If you don't aggregate everything then you are just slicing to what you see as the national mood. Of course, since you seem to think that the "unwashed masses" and what they want doesn't matter, perhaps your definition of the national mood is different from mine.

    2007-11-20 12:24:34
    298.   wireroom
    288 yeah my old band used to open up for Ben Vaughn quite a bit. He is a great guy and a wonderful performer. I miss hanging out with that guy.
    2007-11-20 12:26:44
    299.   Bob Timmermann
    294
    Cormac McCarthy must be someone who appears in gpellamjr's nightmares.
    2007-11-20 12:34:52
    300.   ncb
    Just wanted to let you guys know I made it back from Baghdad last month. I talked to a few of you briefly while I was out there, but now I am turning around and heading out to Afghanistan...I guess I like being deployed! Anyways, if Kent doesn't come back is that such a bad thing? We talk about old guys stopping the progression of the younger guys and a lot of talk is given to Laroche but why dont we discuss our other two young middle infielders whose numbers tend to indicate they are ready for a shot at the major league level.

    I love the off season, almost as much as the regular season, but I "almost" feel like a Cubs fan now, because we have gone 20 years with just 1 playoff victory (thank you Mr. Lima) so this recent talk about adding Erik Bedard from the O's (not likely?) and MCAB...I am all in favor for. But the one thing I cant figure out is why havent we heard more talk about the Dodgers being serious players for Mr. Jones? This decision seems like a no brainer...right?

    I am hanging out in Tampa right now before moving out to kuwait on Tuesday, and I must say the Yankees ST home is pretty nice, but I am looking forward to spending future ST games in AZ...Go Dodgers!!

    Show/Hide Comments 301-350
    2007-11-20 12:36:55
    301.   LogikReader
    "National Feeling of hopelessness" at least until the 2008 election. That's not a Rule 5 is it? It's a general feeling that most folks find can be rectified with the election of a new president. That goes for folks on either side of the Political Spectrum, hence, the feeling itself isn't so much one way or another, it's more of a general statement about society at the moment.

    As for the "Dodger feeling of hopelessness," a lot of it depends on how the offseason turns out. The good news is, there really aren't that many mistakes to be made this time around. Personally, what's the worst that could happen? A lot of the pieces are set in place. As long as the Outfield isn't tinkered too much, even with "unnamed player", the Dodgers should be fine. I don't necessarily know if they'll be good, though.

    2007-11-20 12:39:33
    302.   Bob Timmermann
    300
    We're glad you're back in one piece. Good luck in Afghanistan. I hear it's lovely in the wintertime.
    2007-11-20 12:42:00
    303.   Greg Brock
    300 All the best to you. Stay safe.
    2007-11-20 12:43:35
    304.   trainwreck
    300
    I think we are not mentioned with Mr. Jones too much because his agent is Scott Boras.

    Wish you all the best, ncb.

    2007-11-20 12:44:19
    305.   ToyCannon
    300
    In twelve months from now I hope to see you post again about the the Dodger 50th Anniversary National League Championship.
    2007-11-20 12:44:25
    306.   LogikReader
    Same here, I can't say enough about how much I appreciate your efforts. Happy Thanksgiving ncb!
    2007-11-20 12:45:17
    307.   ToyCannon
    Isn't the 40 man roster due today?
    2007-11-20 12:45:32
    308.   Sam DC
    300 Peace. And thank you.
    2007-11-20 12:47:08
    309.   paranoidandroid
    My vote for Dodger MVP of 2007 would go for Saito. Martin would be a close second.

    I don't think we'd have a winning record without Sammy last year. He was on the shelf for a few days, and was always ready to take the ball other than that one stretch. He was automatic until Colorado in mid-September.

    Martin is the heart of our team. He is the passion. He leads with his energy and will to excel and exceed. He tired from overuse in my opinion, but he was our positional MVP if Saito were not included in the mix. Kent would be in third in my evaluations, points taken off for the way he handled the press after his option year became guaranteed.

    2007-11-20 12:47:18
    310.   Daniel Zappala
    300 Thank you for your service. We look forward to your return in good health!
    2007-11-20 12:51:07
    311.   ncb
    I just finished reading the book the Kite Runner (a story about two Afghanistan boys and the Taliban), which is being released as a major motion picture shortly, if you get a chance to read the book or see the movie I highly recommend it. The book is a real gutwrencher, and is a very easy read but if you can get through the book without throwing it in disgust then you are a better man than me.

    302 and 303: Thanks for the concern, I am going to bring an extra pair gloves to compensate, courtesy the lessons learned from the movie Dumb and Dumber.

    2007-11-20 12:52:49
    312.   old dodger fan
    300 Army?
    2007-11-20 12:55:56
    313.   underdog
    300 kind of puts everything in perspective, doesn't it?

    Be safe!

    --

    Off subject, but it looks as if USC's struggles in basketball are over. They signed rapper Lil' Romeo.

    2007-11-20 12:59:47
    314.   Jon Weisman
    http://tinyurl.com/33j3w9

    First basemen riding the Dodgers' Rose Parade float: Something old (Wes Parker), something new (James Loney), something borrowed (Nomar Garciaparra), something blue (Steve Garvey).

    Scully, Newcombe, Erskine, Valenzuela and many others too ...

    2007-11-20 13:03:26
    315.   underdog
    314 Where will they fit the trash can?
    2007-11-20 13:04:29
    316.   trainwreck
    313
    He will do wonders for them riding the bench, with his dad complaining from the stands.
    2007-11-20 13:04:51
    317.   Linkmeister
    The version of "Worried Man" I'm most familiar with is the one by The Kingston Trio; I'd venture that's the one Bob was thinking of too.

    314 The Dodgers have a Rose Parade float? Is that usual? I haven't watched that parade in 30 years, but...

    2007-11-20 13:06:44
    318.   old dodger fan
    314 I guess that's enough first baseman but Ron Fairly would have been a nice addition.
    2007-11-20 13:08:54
    319.   ncb
    No, I am a Captain in the Marine Corps. Fortunately this deployment is only seven months longs so I should be back in early June. Then it will be time to put the resume together and get out, I am ready to take a break from the fighting and spend time destroying some of the golf courses in Az with the new hybrid I just purchased. I appreciate all the concern but the only reason I brought it up was to let those i talked to previously that I got back.

    Has anyone read Plaschke (SP?) new book on Lasorda yet? Is it worth a read? Any idea why the O's would want to trade Bedard?

    2007-11-20 13:11:52
    320.   Jon Weisman
    319 - All my best.
    2007-11-20 13:13:30
    321.   fanerman
    319 I think Bob Timmermann was supposed to have read it over the weekend and is supposed to give a review at the Griddle sometime.

    BTW, another hearty thank you and stay safe.

    2007-11-20 13:14:33
    322.   CajunDodger
    319
    I hear that Kemp is the centerpiece, but they could use a new young pitcher (Kershaw) and middle infielder (Abreu/HU) if they trade Tejada.
    2007-11-20 13:14:46
    323.   underdog
    I wish the O's GM was Kenny Williams. Then the Dodgers could get Bedard for Wilson Valdez and Juan Pierre.
    2007-11-20 13:19:48
    324.   Sam DC
    319 The Tim Brown article that reported the Bedard thing reports/speculates/suggests that the Orioles are considering such a deal because they are in hardcore rebuilding mode and they believe they can get high value for Bedard because so many teams want pitching and the FA market is so thin.

    And yes that's one long, sloppy sentence.

    2007-11-20 13:23:09
    325.   CajunDodger
    319
    All the best. Make sure to kill those golf courses when you get back.
    2007-11-20 13:26:15
    327.   Bob Timmermann
    I should have the Lasorda/Plaschke book done soon and I'll have a review next week.

    I was distracted last night by movie viewing and the misjudged "Battlestar Galactica" download on my computer.

    2007-11-20 13:32:40
    328.   trainwreck
    I hope I get off work early, so I can down the street to this bar that has Boddingtons on tap.
    2007-11-20 13:35:26
    329.   Frip
    313
    300 kind of puts everything in perspective, doesn't it?

    not really

    2007-11-20 13:41:14
    330.   Jon Weisman
    326 - Sorry, I don't want to know anyone's opinion on foreign policy here.
    2007-11-20 13:42:28
    331.   Benaiah
    329 - They aren't talking about the movie "300". That only put "Triumph of the Will" in perspective.
    2007-11-20 13:44:15
    332.   CajunDodger
    Jon,

    I just had some of that server trouble that was mentioned on the site yesterday. It was offline on my computer for about 10 minutes.

    2007-11-20 13:45:10
    333.   D4P
    DodgerThought rules exist for your safety and for that of your team.

    They are not flexible, nor is Jon.

    2007-11-20 13:47:52
    334.   trainwreck
    333
    Silva vs Henderson! Finally a good opponent for the Spider.
    2007-11-20 13:47:58
    335.   Penarol1916
    331. That, was very clever and worth a very nice chuckle, thanks very ending my workweek on such a nice note. Happy Thanksgiving all.
    2007-11-20 13:48:53
    336.   fanerman
    335 Your workweek has already ended? Nice.
    2007-11-20 13:48:58
    337.   LogikReader
    333

    Please keep your arms and legs inside the comment box until the server has come to a complete stop.

    ---

    Slow day for baseball news. Good day for Geoff Blum though.

    Incidentally, Posednik has been DFA'd if anyone was wondering: http://tinyurl.com/3827yv

    2007-11-20 13:49:06
    338.   Jon Weisman
    333 - And yet, I am flexible. Or irrational. One of those.
    2007-11-20 13:52:37
    339.   CajunDodger
    At risk of a Rule 8 violation, this is what I picked out of a Dayn Perry article where he recommends the Yanks getting Cabrera:

    "The bottom line is that the Yankees going to have to part with either Hughes or Chamberlain to get Cabrera. Chamberlain has less value going forward, and packaging him with a position prospect like Jose Tabata — or perhaps just Wilson Betemit — would likely be enough to get a deal done. "

    OK, so for the Yankees, Phillip Hughes and Jose Tabata/Wilson Betemit is enough to get Cabrera. Meanwhile we have to give up a better pitcher, a better positional prospect, and a potentially great major leaguer who will be under control for 5 more years and possibly another proven young first baseman.

    These writers are just ridiculous.

    2007-11-20 13:54:49
    340.   Curtis Lowe
    Ethier/LaRoche/MacDonald/Meloan for MCAB final offer. That deal is better for both sides than any other teams supposed package.

    Besides the White Sox what team is in need of a Center Fielder who loves batting lead off and makes things happen when he's on the basepaths?

    Is there a way to find out how many times someone reached base on a fielders choice? Infield hit?

    2007-11-20 13:55:19
    341.   Robert Daeley
    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7466954

    The Rosenthal article has been updated:

    'The Dodgers stand a better chance of acquiring Cabrera from the Marlins, major-league sources say, if they are willing to part with outfielder Matt Kemp along with third baseman Andy LaRoche and minor-league left-hander Clayton Kershaw.

    'The teams are in disagreement on only "one piece," according to a source, who declined to specify what that piece might be. The Marlins are further apart with the Angels, the source said.'

    2007-11-20 13:55:27
    342.   Eric Stephen
    330
    Besides, I think CanuckDodger pretty well covered the Dodgers' recent foreign policy history in his excellent arial-font laden post. :)
    2007-11-20 13:56:51
    343.   Benaiah
    338 - Irrationally flexible?

    339 - I don't know that I agree that either Billingsley or Kershaw is a better pitcher than Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain. It is debatable anyway. Still, that deal is a lot less than what the Dodgers are supposedly giving up, but then that is probably why Cabrera isn't a Dodger already.

    2007-11-20 14:01:52
    344.   CajunDodger
    340
    My offer would be:

    LaRoche, Ethier or Meloan, Kemp or Kershaw.

    I think that is fair and equitable especially if we do not get a window to negotiate an extension.

    2007-11-20 14:04:33
    345.   underdog
    My guess is that "one piece" would be Andy LaRoche, who would seem to be a no-brainer in a deal for Cabrera anyway. Colletti is likely indeed less interested in dealing away Kemp and Kershaw, or even just one of them. As noted here many times, that the Dodgers are being asked to give up packages that are two to three times what the Marlins are (rumored)to be asking other teams for is startling, if not surprising. Just say no, 'til the demands decrease a bit.

    And why are the Yankees interested in Cabrera anyway, unless they plan to move him to first? I still think Cabrera is either going nowhere, or to the Angels.

    2007-11-20 14:06:07
    346.   kinbote
    My contribution to Movie Thoughts: I just finished watching "Dog Day Afternoon" for the first time. I had a Dodger Thoughts moment when Sonny was outside the bank throwing money into the air/crowd. I wasn't present during Colletti's negotiation with Pierre's agent, but I'm guessing it was pretty close to that scene.
    2007-11-20 14:06:07
    347.   CajunDodger
    339
    You may be right, though I haven't looked up the player rankings lately. I shouldn't post when I'm in a stew. ;-)
    2007-11-20 14:06:31
    348.   Penarol1916
    336. Yeah, my wife told me that if I didn't take tomorrow and Friday off I would be in trouble even though we don't do anything for Thanksgiving and it just means she wants me to put up our horribly cheesey Christmas decorations up a day early and to watch the kids on Friday while she goes shopping for no reason since all of our presents are already purchased. I just sent my last memo and I'm gone.
    2007-11-20 14:10:56
    349.   CajunDodger
    345
    My thinking would be that Kemp is the dealbreaker. We seem to be deeper in young pitching than in young positional prospects. Where Kershaw could potentially be replaced by Elbert or, to a lesser extent, Mcdonald, Kemp would have to be replaced by Ethier/Young.
    2007-11-20 14:14:16
    350.   underdog
    346 I wish I could picture Colletti shouting "Attica! Attica!" during negotiations but somehow can't...
    Show/Hide Comments 351-400
    2007-11-20 14:22:42
    351.   Johnson
    341 I note that the two quotes there don't necessarily come from the same source(s). We've got sources saying that the Dodgers are likely to land Cabrera with a Kemp/LaRoche/Kershaw package and a possibly different source saying that the two sides are only one piece apart from making a deal. That one piece could be one of the above three, or it's possible that there are different parameters being discussed (e.g. LaRoche/Abreu/Meloan/Elbert) and we're a piece apart (e.g. Hu vs. Abreu). That latter package still looks comparable to me to some of the packages allegedly coming from other teams.

    Anyway, of the "big three" I'd probably consider Kershaw the dealbreaker. LaRoche/Kemp we could probably afford to lose to get a re-signed Cabrera (and unlike what Coletti seemed to say, I think a negotiation window is important here) even though it would almost certainly mean we can't get rid of Pierre this year.

    2007-11-20 14:22:54
    352.   blue22
    I hope that Ned is trying to keep LaRoche for third, not counting on Cabrera to play there. If Miggy comes over as the leftfielder, maybe that prevents Ned from signing Rowand, Hunter or Jones (which is a good thing in my opinion).

    LaRoche and Nomar can duke it out at 3rd, and Cabrera joins Pierre and Ethier in the OF.

    A Kemp, Kershaw, and Meloan is still the best offer out there.

    2007-11-20 14:33:30
    353.   Benaiah
    352 - Not a chance. If Cabrera comes then I would bet anything and everything that Laroche is gone.
    2007-11-20 14:35:52
    354.   CajunDodger
    353
    That would be a cool scenario, though.
    2007-11-20 14:36:47
    355.   fanerman
    I think I'd be thrilled to get Cabrera if we only had to give up Kemp or Kershaw, but not both (along with LaRoche, Meloan, etc). But that probably wouldn't get it done.
    2007-11-20 14:38:06
    356.   Dark Horse
    349-That would be my thinking too. If the Dodgers can get Cabrera for LaRoche, Kershaw and, say, Ethier, I would consider that an OK deal. Cabrera renders LaRoche redundant (and no matter how good Andy turns out to be, he won't hit like Cabrera), Kershaw would hurt like hell but TINSTAAP and all that...but both of those players and Kemp? No thank you, says I, if I'm Ned Colletti.

    Even Juan Pierre probably couldn't prevent a line-up that included Cabrera, Kemp, Loney, Martin, Kent and a healthy Furcal from scoring a truckload of runs. I get a little giddy just thinking about it.

    Then again, signing Andruw and jettisoning Pierre would be better yet.

    2007-11-20 14:40:10
    357.   silverwidow
    The "one piece" HAS to be Kershaw. Ned and Logan love his stuff and character.
    2007-11-20 14:41:43
    358.   fanerman
    And getting Cabrera without losing Kershaw OR Kemp would be the ultimate coup d'etat.

    Oops. I think I fell into a post-lunch food coma.

    2007-11-20 14:43:57
    359.   blue22
    353 - Cabrera is the worst defensive 3B in the league (assuming Braun gets moved to the OF). He's much worse at third than Pierre is in center, and Ned is actively trying to replace Pierre out there. It makes some sense that Ned would be aware of Cabrera's defensive shortcomings.
    2007-11-20 14:44:38
    360.   fiddlestick
    I hope the "piece" that's still outstanding is Scott Olson coming our way. Then I think you've got a trade that's pretty close to being a win/win for both sides.
    2007-11-20 14:47:58
    361.   CajunDodger
    Boras is now quoted as saying that Jones will not sign for a single year, but will command a multi-year contract (http://tinyurl.com/2gqrhd).

    No surprise there, but he does paint the picture through very different glasses than I think most GMs would.

    2007-11-20 14:48:13
    362.   D4P
    Silva vs Henderson! Finally a good opponent for the Spider

    Yeah, should be a good bout. Two world-class combatants.

    I'm also excited for Fedor v. Choi. Choi only has one fight, but he's so big that he might be pretty good. We don't know yet.

    2007-11-20 14:48:18
    363.   Andrew Shimmin
    359- Pierre probably wasn't significantly different defensively this year than he was last year, right? Colletti soured on his defense only after looking at it every day. I'm wary of anybody's theory of defense, but I'm especially wary of Colletti's.
    2007-11-20 14:52:50
    364.   blue22
    363 - But Cabrera fares poorly in easily digested stats like errors and fielding percentage (in the bottom 3 in both, with Braun and Kouzmanoff). He doesn't need to look hard to see that he's real bad.
    2007-11-20 14:54:51
    365.   CajunDodger
    364
    Is there a metric that balances offense and defense so that a question like this can be answered? VORP doesn't take defense into account, does it?
    2007-11-20 14:55:56
    366.   fiddlestick
    I hope Boras tries to go to the mat with Andruw Jones since he's his best guy left.

    Then I hope Andruw and his dad sign a 2 year/$30M contract with us.

    2007-11-20 14:57:08
    367.   blue22
    365 - WARP3 takes into account both, but their defensive metric they use isn't exactly reliable.
    2007-11-20 14:57:11
    368.   Benaiah
    365 - Win Shares.
    2007-11-20 14:59:52
    369.   D4P
    Is U.C.L.A. alum Trevor Ariza any good...?
    2007-11-20 15:00:45
    370.   LogikReader
    361

    ESPN.com asked 15 front office executives if they would prefer Jones or Hunter as a center field option. Fourteen respondents chose Hunter

    Boy I wouldn't have said that. I'd have said Jones all the way, just based on defense and OBP potential alone. Overall, Jones has had a significantly higher On Base Percentage for his career.

    2007-11-20 15:00:48
    371.   fanerman
    369 Wondering because he's a Laker now?
    2007-11-20 15:02:12
    372.   CajunDodger
    365
    I dunno, Corey Patterson is still available...
    2007-11-20 15:02:28
    373.   blue22
    371 - Is that true?
    2007-11-20 15:02:40
    374.   Bob Timmermann
    369
    Most Bruins fans missed the heyday of the Trevor Ariza era. Such is the fate of playing only when the team was awful.
    2007-11-20 15:03:33
    375.   CajunDodger
    368
    Is that on BaseballReference.com?
    2007-11-20 15:03:54
    376.   D4P
    Cook and Evans for Ariza.

    I don't see how that really helps the Lakers much.

    2007-11-20 15:04:01
    377.   blue22
    371 - Ariza for Cook and Mo Evans?!? That's a great deal for LA!
    2007-11-20 15:05:14
    378.   fanerman
    373 I see it on Rotoworld, from the Orlando Sentinel (thanks to Craig from Forum Blue and Gold):

    http://tinyurl.com/2x7yvs

    I haven't seen it anywhere else yet.

    Maurice Evans + Brian Cook for Trevor Ariza.

    No more BCook = Yatta!

    2007-11-20 15:05:44
    379.   Jon Weisman
    374 - I think I actually did a post on DT about how I thought he was making a mistake turning pro so early. Or maybe it was a comment.
    2007-11-20 15:06:46
    380.   ToyCannon
    I will do all of you a favor and not post here again until the 1st of the year if Ned was to actually trade Kemp, LaRoche, and Kershaw and only get MCAB back. I'm sure all those names are being bandied about, I'm just as sure that only 2 of our studs(Loney, Kemp, LaRoche,Kershaw) will be heading East.

    For those who only think that Kemp can continue to get better I bring you the one player who scares me the most that he could become. He was big, fast, great arm, great power, terrible plate discipline, and did great things at age 22. By age 26 this guy was done.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/valenel01.shtml

    2007-11-20 15:06:59
    381.   LogikReader
    377 378

    Really? I'll have to take your word for it. Was Brian Cook really that bad? I didn't follow the NBA very much last season.

    2007-11-20 15:07:03
    382.   blue22
    376 - 2 ways:

    I think Ariza is a much better version of Mo Evans.

    Cook no longer collects a paycheck from LA.

    2007-11-20 15:08:52
    383.   fanerman
    381 Anything BCook could do, VladRad can do better.

    Especially defense. And VladRad isn't very good at defense.

    2007-11-20 15:09:03
    384.   Robert Daeley
    378

    Now on Lakers.com

    http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/071120_lakersacquireariza.html

    2007-11-20 15:09:33
    385.   Jon Weisman
    Jon Weisman, lame basketball scout:

    http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/12836.html

    And comment 34 in this thread.

    http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/353856.html

    2007-11-20 15:09:43
    386.   ToyCannon
    Anything that gets rid of Brian Cook is a plus. His draft and extension was one of Kupchak's mistakes that I'll agree with.
    2007-11-20 15:12:07
    387.   ToyCannon
    375
    The Hardball Times
    http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/?view=winshares&league_filter[]=AL
    2007-11-20 15:14:13
    388.   Bob Timmermann
    385
    I would make a bad scout in just about every sport. Except maybe for croquet.
    2007-11-20 15:14:25
    389.   D4P
    Maybe it's not enough to justify a roster spot, but Cook shot

    .39
    .43
    .40

    from downtown the past 3 seasons.

    2007-11-20 15:14:50
    390.   underdog
    Confirmed here: http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/071120_lakersacquireariza.html

    And elsewhere. Huh. I liked Evans but he wasn't a big part of the team at this point. Cook was a washout.

    2007-11-20 15:15:36
    391.   underdog
    D'oh, I'm the pause that refreshes, er the guy who pauses refreshing... Anyway, seems like a good deal.
    2007-11-20 15:16:39
    392.   Bob Timmermann
    389
    Downtown?

    Where all the lights are bright?

    Is there something waiting for me there?

    Are there movie shows?

    2007-11-20 15:17:22
    393.   Jon Weisman
    Fun story:

    http://www.variety.com/awardcentral_article/VR1117976334.html

    2007-11-20 15:18:52
    394.   D4P
    392
    Is there something waiting for me there?

    Lucille Bluth

    2007-11-20 15:21:46
    395.   ryu
    I don't think Ariza ever played together with fellow former Bruin Jordan Farmar at UCLA.
    2007-11-20 15:23:13
    396.   CajunDodger
    387
    Wow! I am still newer to the stats game than most of you guys, but that WSAB stat summarizes what I have been trying to distill for years. I shoulda asked sooner.
    2007-11-20 15:24:28
    397.   SG6
    Kobe didn't like Mo Evans wearing the same white armsleeve on the same right arm - so Mo had to go.
    2007-11-20 15:31:52
    398.   Dave G
    Really kind of off-topic, just riffing/reflecting on all of these trade ideas--
    The nature of being a fan is so fascinating to me, in that it involves tying ourselves, and making an emotional commitment, to something where we have a complete lack of agency. We can't choose whether to include Kemp or Kershaw in a trade for Cabrera; those decisions are made almost entirely independent of what we may believe.

    Choosing to be a sports fan in that sense is a really bizarre (and somewhat irrational) decision. We love the Dodgers, but we really can't do anything at all to affect their success or failure on an individual level. It's almost like being a fan is just gambling--you're gambling that your team's going to do well and you'll be happy, against the chance that your team will do poorly and you'll be unhappy.

    But then, perhaps Jon himself is the counter-example, a man who decided to create a forum for his own thoughts, and through the popularity of his site has created a name for himself, and has helped in terms of creating a name for "bloggers," even if that term is often applied monolithically.

    In the end, though, to paraphrase a famous quote, "a fan proposes, the GM disposes." And I suppose we offer prayers to the GM to dispose with our players well with the same mindset--hope for the best and dread fear of the worst, with really no control in the end--that we pray for health and prosperity. So I'm not going to make any suggestions, despite having my ideas about these trades, and am just going to offer a prayer to Ned and Frank to make the right moves.

    Anyway, rambling finished. Thanks as always for the forum, Jon.

    2007-11-20 15:34:46
    399.   Bob Timmermann
    395
    Farmar, along with Aflallo and Shipp, were part of the group of recruits UCLA fans were waiting for so we didn't have to put up with the likes of Ariza and Bozeman.

    Although we later grew to like Bozeman.

    2007-11-20 15:36:03
    400.   ToyCannon
    393
    I've often wondered about all the people who inhabit the Motion Picture Fund Home whenever I pass it and hit the Saturday morning farmers market right up the block.

    Man, the stories that place must have.

    One of my jobs was to deliver liquer in South Glendale and one of the customers was a down and out B movie actress. I used to feel so sorry for her, it is nice that many of them have a place like the Motion Picture Fund Home.

    Show/Hide Comments 401-450
    2007-11-20 15:36:06
    401.   D4P
    399
    You accidentally forgot to say that you also grew to like Ariza.
    2007-11-20 15:36:19
    402.   MJW101
    Another way of looking at the Cabrera situation would be to determine where the LAD farm system is weakest/strongest (i.e. where can we afford to lose players because we are well stocked).

    1B - nearest quality 1B is in the low minors.
    MIF - Abreu/Hu/DeJesus/Pedrozia
    3B - nearest quality 3b are in low minors (DeWitt does not count)
    OF - X. Paul (very thin in quality OF)
    SP - Kershaw/McDonald/Elbert then nothing until low minors
    RP - Meloan/Wright/Wade/Tronsco

    Since we are so thin in OF can we really afford to give up Kemp's power and potential with no replacement in the foreseeable future?

    We can afford to give up DeJesus and Abreu because we have Hu and Pedrozia coming along.

    We can afford to lose a RP because we have depth.

    We will only have Penny and Bills (Schmidt cannot be counted upon) after 08. McDonald and Elbert are good, but can we really afford to lose a possible Ace like Kershaw?

    Hitting is important, but pitching is what has gotten teams to the WS and won.

    Ethier, Elbert & LaRoche should be adequate compensation for Cabrera. Anymore and Ned should walk away. Of course, Ned has never met a deal he would not overpay for.

    2007-11-20 15:36:39
    403.   Jonny6
    Cleveland signs RHP Kobayashi. Cue "Usual Suspects" references here.

    I wouldn't know Ariza if I bumped into on the street, but if he can defend a little bit than it's a favorable trade for the Lakers. Cook has looked baaaaaaaaaaad lately and despite a few nice moments Evans was never going to be much more than a career NBA journeyman.

    2007-11-20 15:39:17
    404.   Bob Timmermann
    401
    I didn't forget to say anything.
    2007-11-20 15:41:40
    405.   blue22
    Ariza came and went so fast, that it wasn't until the pros that I realized he was any good. Sorta the anti-Jerome Moiso in that respect.
    2007-11-20 15:46:49
    406.   D4P
    404
    But...that means...no...it can't be...
    2007-11-20 15:48:11
    407.   Daniel Zappala
    402 I was starting to think of it this way myself, but you did a much better job than I could have of summarizing the Dodgers' current status. If the Dodgers do make a deal that weakens a particular area, they'll be forced to make other trades, since the only other decent free agent (Jones) plays CF.
    2007-11-20 15:49:22
    408.   Bob Timmermann
    I think the 2-14 finish down the stretch in Ariza's lone season at UCLA made everyone try to forget him.
    2007-11-20 15:53:22
    409.   fanerman
    RealGM likes the deal for the Lakers:

    http://tinyurl.com/yp3k6e

    2007-11-20 15:53:50
    410.   blue22
    402/407 - Skirting Rule 8 here, but I think that's only if you consider Cabrera a 3B. If they swap Cabrera for Kemp in the OF, you're right where you started.

    Including Kemp in a deal could enable you to keep LaRoche too. As someone pointed out the other day, it might be right now that Kemp is a bit overrated and LaRoche underrated. Kemp could be special, but LaRoche is probably a safer player to hold onto.

    2007-11-20 15:55:12
    411.   Dark Horse
    402-"Of course, Ned has never met a deal he would not overpay for. "

    It's fashionable to say so, but in fact that's yet to prove the case. Yeah, we all--many of us, at least--think Ned got hosed in trading for Baez, or Lugo, or Proctor or what have you, but I suspect we might have been overvaluing the prospects in question and/or failing to judge the marketplace correctly. In trading Izturis for Maddux, on the other hand, Colletti maximized value. I can't say any of the afforementioned trades have yet truly hurt us in terms of what we gave up, at least.

    We can judge Colletti harshly on the basis of certain--ahem--signings, but not yet on the basis of overpaying in trade. Not yet.

    2007-11-20 15:55:19
    412.   ryu
    Actually I wouldn't blame Ariza for the bad finish that season. If anyone's to blame it's two of the leaders on that team, Dijon Thompson and T.J. Cummings.

    I remember I was sad and angry when Ariza announced he was leaving (against the advise of both Ben Howland and his own mother).

    2007-11-20 15:58:34
    413.   D4P
    409
    Wow. A for Lakers, D+ for Magic.
    2007-11-20 16:02:50
    414.   Linkmeister
    392 Petula Clark
    2007-11-20 16:05:55
    415.   Jon Weisman
    Am I the last to see this?

    Scrubs does A Charlie Brown Christmas

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Of_mna-Rs

    2007-11-20 16:08:26
    416.   ryu
    Orlando GM Otis Smith says Brian Cook brings "added toughness to our roster."

    I don't think he did his homework.

    2007-11-20 16:09:38
    417.   fanerman
    Yeah, seriously. The Lakers got younger, got more athletic on the wing, lost salary, and got rid of Cook. Kudos, Mitch.
    2007-11-20 16:11:48
    418.   bhsportsguy
    415 I would never say last but I saw it last year.
    Very funny.
    2007-11-20 16:18:21
    419.   Eric Stephen
    307 Isn't the 40 man roster due today?

    It looks like the deadline this year is tomorrow. I found a Kansas City Star article mentioning the Royals needed to finalize their 40-man by Wednesday:

    http://tinyurl.com/2o6f6g

    So by tomorrow we can see if Corey Wade's AFL performance was enough to get him on the 40-man.

    2007-11-20 16:18:48
    420.   Jon Weisman
    White Sox cut Podsednik.
    2007-11-20 16:19:05
    421.   Jon Weisman
    or DFA him, rather.
    2007-11-20 16:19:32
    422.   fanerman
    Isn't today the 1-year anniversary of Juan Pierre signing with the Dodgers?
    2007-11-20 16:21:41
    423.   LogikReader
    420 337

    Incidentally, Posednik has been DFA'd if anyone was wondering: http://tinyurl.com/3827yv

    That makes two: One for Jon, one for LogikReader

    2007-11-20 16:26:35
    424.   D4P
    I would never say last

    Yeah. That was a bit hyperbolic. Something less would have sufficed.

    2007-11-20 16:35:24
    425.   LogikReader
    A while back we brought up similarities between Posednik and Pierre, mainly their lack of power, am I remembering right?
    2007-11-20 16:36:00
    426.   Jon Weisman
    423 - Wow. I missed that because I only focused on where my arms were.

    424 - It's Commenters Revenge Day!

    2007-11-20 16:37:52
    427.   LogikReader
    426

    Safety first, Jon!

    2007-11-20 16:39:15
    428.   MC Safety
    I still cant believe Podsednik hit that homer in 05'. That had flukey written all over it.
    2007-11-20 16:40:12
    429.   CajunDodger
    428
    Francisco Cabrera comes to mind...
    2007-11-20 16:43:49
    430.   natepurcell
    Love the Laker trade. Cook is redundant with Vlad on the roster and Ariza is going to do what Evans was suppose to do.

    Evans looks like Donatello from Ninja Turtles (which gives him + + Nate points) but he was a horrible defender.

    2007-11-20 16:46:15
    431.   KG16
    410 - actually, you are in worse position, because you've given up three players to fill a hole that wasn't there and you still have the apparent "hole" at third with no internal means of solving it (and no options on the market either).
    2007-11-20 16:46:44
    432.   trainwreck
    I can't believe someone actually wanted Brian Cook.

    Ariza is very underrated and very under-used. His biggest problem is probably his attitude.

    His only worth to UCLA was keeping our streak of having a player taken in the NBA draft.

    2007-11-20 16:47:51
    433.   natepurcell
    Don't back down Colletti! No to giving up players on the major league roster!
    2007-11-20 16:51:03
    434.   MC Safety
    FoxSports has Jonny Estrada going to the Mets for Mota . Im not sure if it has been posted.
    2007-11-20 16:52:04
    435.   D4P
    I wonder if Ned realizes that the offense scored more runs/game Post All-Star break than Pre.

    I doubt it.

    2007-11-20 16:52:10
    436.   SG6
    433 - a JP apologist?
    2007-11-20 16:52:25
    437.   still bevens
    434 Mets fans on BTF are ecstatic that the move means no more Mota and LoDuca. Someone inform Plaschke of this development.
    2007-11-20 16:55:02
    438.   MC Safety
    I would be ecstatic too. Estrada's pretty decent.
    2007-11-20 16:56:00
    439.   trainwreck
    437
    Not like Estrada is any good either.
    2007-11-20 17:02:13
    440.   still bevens
    I would be ecstatic that my team wasn't paying through the nose for too many years of Yorvit Torrealba.
    2007-11-20 17:06:15
    441.   Jon Weisman
    New post in progress.
    2007-11-20 17:08:54
    442.   wronghanded
    The Dodgers just announced their 40-man roster with the following joining the team per ITD:

    Xavier Paul, Lucas May, James McDonald, Ramon Troncoso, Justin Orenduff, Mario Alvarez, Cory Wade

    Also Megrew was outrighted.

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