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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
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Dear Prudence
2007-11-28 08:17
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

More than one columnist has written recently that the Dodgers need to do something – even if that something is stupid – to show that they're serious about winning.

Yes, in multiple articles, columnists have actually cited bad deals as examples the Dodgers should follow. Better to move than stand still, they say – even if that movement is backwards.

Really.

I don't think there are too many people who want the Dodgers to stand pat. No matter your beliefs, no matter how much you love the Dodgers younger players, you're going to see places to improve an 82-win team.

But it seems to be a somewhat radical view in Mainstreamland to advocate only for positive change, rather than change for change's sake.

Most would love to see Johan Santana pitching for the Dodgers next year, for example. Maybe it will happen – after all, it's only November. But at some point, the price for Santana may well become too steep to be sensible, because if you're going to end up giving him the richest pitcher contract in history, you might want to have some talent (even better – low-cost talent) to support him, rather than leaving the cupboard bare for him. And certainly, you don't want to give up major talent for Santana only to lose him a year later to free agency. It's the Kobe conundrum, isn't it?

So, if it becomes senseless to trade for Santana at this point, does it make sense to substitute a shaky pitcher for him, just for the sake of doing so? That's how you get Brett Tomko, folks. Or even Esteban Loaiza. Or as a few sages would have said, even before last season, Jason Schmidt.

I'm concerned that Matt Kemp's low-walk totals could keep him from being a true superstar instead of a superior version of Juan Encarnacion. I don't think James Loney is going to homer at the rate he did last September, But I do know that whatever their limitations are, they can improve the Dodgers just by getting more at-bats next season. Just by playing the right guys, the team will be making positive changes.

The starting rotation is more complicated. Derek Lowe, Brad Penny and Chad Billingsley are set, but as far as the final two spots in the rotation go, Jason Schmidt, Esteban Loaiza and James McDonald might be below-average in April, because of age (old or young) and/or health. It's dicey to go into the season with those five.

Me, I'd be willing to spend money to sign an extra starting pitcher as insurance – but only if he doesn't block McDonald or Clayton Kershaw long-term. I'm perfectly happy to overpay for someone if that pitcher isn't an albatross – someone you start out of obligation. You always have to be willing to let the right pitchers be in the rotation, regardless of their contracts.

If you're going to waste money, you have to be willing to waste it. You have to be willing to admit that what might have made sense at some point stops making sense at another point. (That's assuming it ever made sense at all.)

Barring that, I look at Lowe, Penny, Billingsley, Schmidt and Loaiza and see, really at worst, three sub-4.00 ERAs and two sub-5.00 ERAs. That's not a golden rotation, but as I wrote for SI.com earlier this year, that's not as bad as you might think – nobody gets five pitchers with above-average ERAs. And it keeps the door open for a talented minor leaguer to break through without any grief.

Adding another sub-5.00 ERA to the mix might not hurt the Dodgers if they use him correctly, but it isn't really going to help the team a whole lot. The Dodgers already have that kind of arm in their minor-league system.

Sometimes, not spending money is cheap. Other times, it's prudent. We can all disagree on where to make the distinction, but if you don't accept that there is a distinction, you're lost.

Update: Jerry Crasnick surveys the starting pitching market at ESPN.com.

* * *

Terry Tiffee. I don't have a joke here - I just like saying, Terry Tiffee.

Comments (379)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-11-28 10:19:27
1.   Sagehen
So where would Kuroda fit in this? A blocker or a sub-4.00 pitcher? Or both?

Yes, I know it's just a rumor, but this is the nicest one I've heard yet.

2007-11-28 10:22:46
2.   regfairfield
I'd be shocked if Kuroda was anything more than a back of the rotation guy.
2007-11-28 10:26:52
3.   still bevens
Yeah Kuroda could very well pan out like Kei Igawa. However I think people were more apprehensive about Igawa since he was more of a finesse pitcher, but still that signing was kind of a disaster for the Yankees. I guess one benefit of Kuroda is there's no posting fee involved.
2007-11-28 10:30:47
4.   Hythloday
Prudence seems to dictate more Randy Wolf type deals then. With a host of arms in the minors (even given TINSTAAP) it would make sense to only sign one year deals even if they are over market value.

Santana, in my mind, is worth 2 current young starters plus a prospect. That is, that is what the Twins should demand. I'm not sure we should give that up. If they would take Ethier/Broxton/Kershaw or something like that I could deal with it. I'd be conflicted, but I could deal with it.

2007-11-28 10:31:03
5.   MC Safety
Anyone got any info on this Shackelford character Ned signed?
2007-11-28 10:34:06
6.   MC Safety
Is there any deception with Kuroda wind up wise? Igawa had no deception at all.
2007-11-28 10:41:15
7.   Gilberto Reyes
Do you really believe that Loaiza is at worst a sub 5.00 ERA? I was not impressed with him last year and would expect at least a 5.50 ERA out of him. And when you talk about starting a guy out of obligation, Juan Pierre is the biggest albatross of them all! Grady never benched him because of his consecutive game streak and his huge contract. You have to do what is best for the team! Pierre should be a bench player until his OBP improves. Or give him to the Giants since Coletti claims that is the team he had to outbid last year when he was a free agent. Sign Rowand or let Kemp play center to see if he can handle it.
2007-11-28 10:41:44
8.   blue22
If you dont like starting pitchers that wear #1 and emulate 1996 Pat Hentgen, your not a human being.

I didn't remember Pat Hentgen wearing #1, which would certainly explain your analogy.

I just think that's one of my favorite inexplicable traditions in baseball. For some reason, pitchers simply do not wear single digit uniform numbers - there isn't a rule that I know of or anything (like in football). It just simply isn't done. I can really only remember one or two instances in my lifetime.

2007-11-28 10:44:35
9.   MC Safety
5 Well, so far he throws left and definitely isnt a character guy. I realize this was a minor league deal, but it doesnt come close to "matching" up to last years "great guy" trifecta of Juan Pierre/Randy Wolf/Luis Gonzalez . I know bad joke, but I had too.
2007-11-28 10:46:29
10.   dkminnick
4 - I would favor an actual Randy Wolf deal. He's gonna come cheap. I am at a loss to understand why the Dodgers seem to have no interest in him at all.

Old friend Eric Gagne would also seem an attractive buy low deal.

You can't have too many pitchers.

2007-11-28 10:47:36
11.   regfairfield
7 What in Loaiza's history would suggest that? The man has been a solid pitcher for the last several years.
2007-11-28 10:49:03
12.   regfairfield
10 I wouldn't assume that. Wolf is by far the best lefty on the market assuming Pettitte stays with his Yankees or nothing stance. He'll get at least what he got last year.
2007-11-28 10:54:40
13.   MC Safety
8 I know Pat Hentgen did'nt wear #1. I was thinking along similar lines as you, just being silly and going against the grain. I just thought "Hey, I'm #1, I really liked Pat Hentgen growing up, and Jon is asking us for postitions, starting pitcher+Pat Hentgen=no brainer!". No evil ulterior motives, just sillyness.
2007-11-28 10:57:31
14.   Gilberto Reyes
11 - Loaiza is not a power pitcher and has become a nibbler in my opinion. If the umpire does not give him the calls, he starts walking people and his ERA skyrockets. He has been solid in the past, but I fear his productive years are behind him. I would like to see one of the young arms given a chance by June over Loaiza if he cannot return to his solid form.
2007-11-28 10:58:07
15.   wronghanded
6 He does pause when he steps back during his wind-up in a Saito-esque kind of way.

I justed watched some video on Kuroda and was pretty impressed with his stuff. The one thing that scares me from what I saw (and granted its a small sample size) is his command or apparent lack there of. In the 2 videos I watched, he didn't walk anybody but several hitters worked the count pretty well against him and he served up some pitches that certified big leaguers would probably hammer. You can't get away with belt high fastballs down the pipe in the bigs, even if you're throwing in the low to mid 90's. That being said, he certainly looked a lot better than Tomko, Hendrickson and other yahoos that we used in the back of our rotation last year. Is 4/45 million worth it? I don't know, he looks like an good #4 or 5 starter to me.

2007-11-28 10:58:43
16.   Jon Weisman
7 - I deliberately did not bring up Pierre in this post because we've talked about him too recently, and there's nothing new to be said.

But I don't think Loaiza's 2007 should be used to determine how he will do in 2008.

2007-11-28 11:01:32
17.   Jon Weisman
14 - "I would like to see one of the young arms given a chance by June over Loaiza if he cannot return to his solid form."

No one's disagreeing with that.

2007-11-28 11:01:56
18.   JoeyP
11--

First reason is his age. He's going to be 36 years old for the 2008 season.

The second reason, is he really hasnt been "solid" the last several years. He was bad in 2007, bad in 2006, good in 2005 (but played most of his games in Washington), bad in 2004, and good in 2003.

He's on the downside, he gives up lots of homers, he doesnt strike people out--he's thoroughly mediocre at this stage of his career. Plus, he makes 7 mils bucks a year, and has the PVL that takes away a spot from a high upside youngster.

I rate Loaiza/Pierre/Nomar in the same boat. All costly mediocre vets that prevent youngsters from having a clear chance to play. Their mere presence on the team is a hinderance to the Dodgers success.

I look at Lowe, Penny, Billingsley, Schmidt and Loaiza and see, really at worst, three sub-4.00 ERAs

Thats exceedingly optimistic IMO. I think Penny/Billingsley are good bets for under 4.00 ERAs. But Schmidt, Lowe, Loaiza have a very mediocre, costly, veteran stench to them. I'll be shocked if the Dodgers get 4 good years out of Lowe. I think he falls off this year, at least with an ERA over 4.00.

2007-11-28 11:02:05
19.   Brian Y
If you want to watch Kuroda pitch here ya go.

http://tinyurl.com/25ohh4

2007-11-28 11:02:17
20.   KG16
5 - is there something wrong with me when I read the words "Shackelford character" and my first thought is, "Shackelford, Rusty Shackelford"?

I think I might be leaning towards a two year deal (with a possible option for a third) for Carlos Silva to round out the rotation.

2007-11-28 11:03:31
21.   Lexinthedena
Loaiza is crafty, and won't be aweful....but he won't be very good either....Shmidt is the real catch for me because there is just no way to predict anything.....makes it very hard to build around...
2007-11-28 11:06:41
22.   Gilberto Reyes
16 - I hope you are right about Loaiza. As a Dodger fan, I am obviously pulling for him. I agreee that his 2007 numbers are too small of a sample size to evaluate. But after suffering through Tomko, Kuo, and Hendrickson in 2007, it is easy to put Loaiza in that category. I hope he comes to camp in shape and poised to have a solid year.
2007-11-28 11:08:12
23.   regfairfield
21 And I'm definately not saying he will be. My reaction at the time of the signing was "probably won't be a complete disaster" and I don't see any reason why I would think differentely.

Loaiza is nothing more than depth at this point. McDonald is probably better right now, but he has options, so he doesn't get to be the first choice. Without Loaiza, we have to turn to Stulton if McDonald gets hurt, or we start burning option years on Kershaw, which can become a serious problem if he ever gets hurt.

2007-11-28 11:08:40
24.   Lexinthedena
19- Thanks for that...

i hate to say it, but his stuff reminds me a lot of Tomko....not to say he is that bad, but stuff-wise very similar....

2007-11-28 11:09:22
25.   underdog
I agree with everything Jon wrote above, but rather than just post "ditto!" I'd add (for probably the 23rd time), that I'd still like to see the Dodgers make an attempt to re-sign Randy Wolf, if he's cheap enough. When healthy he's very solid - and that "when healthy" is definitely a major caveat, given his recent history, but he's worth a flyer.

Bring him back, or Kuroda, and the rotation has plenty of depth, with no one blocking The Minotaur and McDonald in the future. If Schmidt comes back solidly, all the better. Loiaza will be a cranky if useful 6th starter, imho. That all comes fairly cheap, and you didn't have to give up top young players to get a guy you can try to sign after the season.

2007-11-28 11:10:48
26.   kinbote
Knowing what we know about Colletti's tendencies, it seems fairly certain he will add an established starter to the mix. Based on that premise, I would rather have the relative unknown of Kuroda over the other names out there. If we can't get him, I'd look into a low-risk high-reward type like Colon or even Prior (via trade). If someone offers Wolf two years, we're out of the running.

Carlos Silva or Kyle Lohse for 5 years gives me the chills.

2007-11-28 11:14:05
27.   JoeyP
23--The downside to "depth" is it always gives the team an excuse to play an older crappier player in place of a more deserving younger one.

Hendrickson/Tomko were "depth" last year. They should have never started a game.
Without both of them, maybe Billingsley actually gets to start for a full season.

With Loaiza making 7mils, I'd rather turn to Stults as "depth" if it comes to that, and spend the 7mils on a better player.

2007-11-28 11:20:13
28.   Bleed Dodger Blue
26 Silva or Lohse would be a nightmare. If we nab either, I'll be screaming bloody murder.

Colon wouldn't bother me, as he's obviously had the good stuff before, yet he might be a guy willing to pitch in the bullpen if he falters early.

I, personally, would be OK with going to war with Penny, Lowe, Billz, Schmidt and Loaiza. We still have Hendrickson (or do we? I can't keep track) for a "holy crap please why God why" emergency start. And we have McDonald a phone call away.

But if we go with a stopgap for a year, I'd go after guys like Colon, Matt Clement, Jason Jennings, etc. ... guys that have been productive in the past but hampered by injury. We don't need 40 starts from these guys, so why not take a stab in the dark at a guy that potentially give us a sub-4 average?

As for Kuroda, I'd say look elsewhere. He has alright tools, but outside of Saito and our "contender" status, there's no reason why he should choose Blue over the Mariners.

2007-11-28 11:21:36
29.   regfairfield
27 Which is true, my comments to depend on the fact that Loaiza will be abandonded if it becomes necassary, but given that we have Schmidt, Kuo and Loaiza as the 4-5-6 right now, we need as many bodies as possible or we'll end up like last year where we ran out of usable pitchers on the 40 man.
2007-11-28 11:23:25
30.   LogikReader
I don't think we have to worry about a Santana trade. The Yankees will take care of that for us.
2007-11-28 11:24:16
31.   MC Safety
There is a real strong possibility imo, that Schmidt and Loaiza are not going to be good. That said they have a chance to be ok, but is anyone really debating the fact that they really almost have no chance of being good? There is not much upside at this point with Loaiza and Schmidt. Saying our rotation has question marks is an understatement to me.
2007-11-28 11:24:44
32.   underdog
28 - If I had to guess, I'd say the odds of where Kuroda lands are as follows:
1. Seattle. (Kenji at catcher is the biggest reason; plus it's a Pacific Rim city)
2. Dodgers. (Saito, contender, and don't forget LA's a Pacific Rim city, too, with a large Japanese and Asian population as well as having a history with Asian players)
3. Everyone else.

I like Mark Prior's talent but with his history we might as well invite Darren Dreifort to spring training, too.

2007-11-28 11:25:47
33.   therickdaddy
Re: Tiffee - I can't say Boof Bonser without smiling.
2007-11-28 11:27:52
34.   rockmrete
JoeyP is right,

We have depth, spend the money on someone (AJ) that can put you over the top. Or don't spend, save the resources for next year.

2007-11-28 11:30:24
35.   Lexinthedena
34- Ron Flippo
2007-11-28 11:30:38
36.   regfairfield
34 Loaiza is better than Stulton. We can clearly afford him, so why not use him? We're not going to just release seven million dollars.
2007-11-28 11:34:42
37.   Jon Weisman
18 - Based on what you wrote, I dispute your use of the word "exceedingly." You agreed with all but one.
2007-11-28 11:38:31
38.   Lexinthedena
36- Is he?....Houlton has not been given a chance as a starter, and probobly never will as a Dodger, but I think he could be better than Loaiza...or Lohse for that matter...
2007-11-28 11:40:15
39.   KG16
So, if USC moves to the Rose Bowl, will they let the Bruins and Trojans wear home uniforms for the games like they did in the old days?

Also, from Plaschke's relatively decent column today, can the Coliseum be torn down? Isn't it a historic landmark? I was under the impression you couldn't tear those down...

2007-11-28 11:41:40
40.   Sushirabbit
... The clouds will be a daisy chain ...

For some reason that song always makes me think of Bill Watterson (I have no idea why). I really miss his stuff.

2007-11-28 11:45:30
41.   silverwidow
Torre knows first hand how bad Loaiza can get. Which likely means he's on a short leash.
2007-11-28 11:47:03
42.   Xeifrank
Guo needs to be mentioned in the mix of 4-5-6th starter. Sure he has his injury problems like Schmidt does, and Bob has cursed him from ever pitching another effective game for the Dodgers again, but his projected K/9, K/BB, K-BB/IP rates are as good as any on the team. Of course you have to be healthy first.
vr, Xei
2007-11-28 11:53:32
43.   Bob Timmermann
39
So, if USC moves to the Rose Bowl, will they let the Bruins and Trojans wear home uniforms for the games like they did in the old days?

No. USC is the home team in odd-numbered years and UCLA is the home team in even-numbered years. So it is and so it shall be.

Also, from Plaschke's relatively decent column today, can the Coliseum be torn down? Isn't it a historic landmark? I was under the impression you couldn't tear those down...

You can tear down historic landmarks if you really want to. There's just a lot more paperwork involved.

2007-11-28 11:55:53
44.   Jon Weisman
43 - Just consider the paperwork involved in tearing down Plaschke.
2007-11-28 12:01:33
45.   Lexinthedena
44- It would save a lot of paper in the end.
2007-11-28 12:12:26
46.   wave of mutilation
I think signing Kuroda would be a wise investment. Kuroda wouldn't be as big of a risk a Schmidt or Loazia in my opinion. We'd probably get more out of Kuroda then those two combined next season.

Another thing that intrigues me about Kuroda is his relationship with Saito. I think one of the main reasons Saito is so successful in America is his preparation and his work ethic. I know nothing about Kuroda but I'd be willing to guess that they are similar in their ways also Saito would help him make the cultural transition a little easier I think.

2007-11-28 12:15:21
47.   Howard Fox
I'm sure USC will do fine in negotiating with the Coliseum Commission. And if they need some advice, they can always consult the NFL.
2007-11-28 12:15:34
48.   wave of mutilation
Delmon Young is about to become a twin. Wow! I didn't think that rumor had any legs.
2007-11-28 12:17:54
49.   Howard Fox
As far as prudence goes...

I'd stick with what we have, let the youngsters in our organization have their chances and suffer with their growing pains, especially given our history of signing lame pitchers in the free agent market.

You hope Lowe, Penny and Billingsley are steady, you hope the position players continue to develop, and you hope the young pitchers adapt in a reasonable amount of time.

2007-11-28 12:21:10
50.   underdog
48 Wow. Yeah, according to the Minneapolis paper, they'd send Matt Garza, Jason Bartlett, and Juan Rincon to the (formerly Devil) Rays for Delmon Young, Brendan Harris, and Jason Pridie. "I can't remember any kind of young player blockbuster like this in recent memory," wrote the MLBTraderumors blogger.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-11-28 12:22:28
51.   blue22
48 - I don't know how much difference there is between Bartlett and Harris, so it looks like it's basically Young for Garza. I thought Young would be worth more than just Garza.

Now the Twins need to trade Santana to the Yankees for Melky Cabrera (and others). Apparently the Yanks want Rowand if they trade Melky.

2007-11-28 12:22:29
52.   Bob Timmermann
50
Those are too many names to be expressed as a rebus.
2007-11-28 12:23:18
53.   regfairfield
48 Reputable source for this?
2007-11-28 12:25:07
54.   blue22
53 - As reliable as it gets - a newspaper blog.

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=276

2007-11-28 12:25:37
55.   underdog
53 http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=276

Bartlett's a really good young player, too. I dunno, I'd call that trade a wash, given how much it improves the Rays pitching staff. Maybe Young moved a trash can and they soured on him there.

2007-11-28 12:25:43
56.   regfairfield
51 Bartlett is better than Harris because Bartlett isn't horrifically bad at defense.
2007-11-28 12:26:32
57.   underdog
Couldn't the Dodgers have offered the Twins Delwyn Young for Garza? Maybe they would've been confused and taken it.
2007-11-28 12:28:50
58.   regfairfield
55 I think him not showing any real improvement in the last two years took some shine off of him. Off hand I'd say this is a pretty even trade.
2007-11-28 12:29:08
59.   regfairfield
57 Worked for Dan Evans.
2007-11-28 12:30:07
60.   Lexinthedena
Now If the Dodgers would just sign Jones, add a 4th starter like Kuroda or Silva, and call it an offseason....
2007-11-28 12:30:45
61.   blue22
56 - But Harris looks like he can hit, though I'm not sure if 2007 was a fluke.

55 - Bartlett is 28, and can't really hit.

2007-11-28 12:31:03
62.   trainwreck
Well I expect Loaiza to be terrible and we are going to have to replace him, but I thought that when we first acquired him.

I agree that he is just depth in my mind, in case someone gets injured. I would not count on him.

2007-11-28 12:33:57
63.   blue22
62 - And you have to think his presence spells the end for Hendrickson. Loaiza looks like the guy that's going to bounce back and forth between the pen and rotation this year.
2007-11-28 12:34:30
64.   JoeyP
I'm really surprised the D-Rays would basically give up on the #1 overall draft pick so soon.

Matt Garza is a decent pitcher, but they must just not see all the projections for stardom that Delmon Young had.

2007-11-28 12:36:36
65.   trainwreck
The Ray outfield would be Crawford-Baldelli-Guzman?

I assume they aren't going to use Dukes.

2007-11-28 12:37:51
66.   regfairfield
65 Crawford/Upton/Gomes probably. Maybe Ruggiano gets a shot.
2007-11-28 12:38:29
67.   underdog
Garza's better than "decent" imho, but yes, it is a surprise the Rays gave up on Young so soon. They have a lot of other talented position players and desperately needed pitching so, thus, the deal...
2007-11-28 12:39:37
68.   blue22
65 - I would think it'll be Crawford/Baldelli/Dukes with Gomes hanging around too. Guzman has a lot to prove to get a big league job.
2007-11-28 12:40:20
69.   blue22
66 - Oh yeah, Upton. Knew there was someone I was forgetting.
2007-11-28 12:40:40
70.   Lexinthedena
I really hate the "Rays" new uni's....one of the cool things about them was the fact that they wore green...
2007-11-28 12:41:19
71.   trainwreck
Oh yeah, forgot Upton was moved to center.
2007-11-28 12:41:29
72.   regfairfield
I think Delmon only walking 63 times unintentionally since 2005 has a lot to do with them souring on him a bit.
2007-11-28 12:41:45
73.   mankatododger
Local sports radio is already split on this deal for the Twins. The early opinion is that this is not a deal Terry Ryan would have made. Also that is just the beginning of something better.
2007-11-28 12:47:06
74.   trainwreck
Yeah, it seems like they are expecting to deal Santana and getting a pitcher or two.
2007-11-28 12:48:30
75.   JoeyP
I guess I'd have been upset if the Dodgers traded Kemp for Garza.

Would people here rather have Matt Kemp or Delmon Young?

2007-11-28 12:49:22
76.   ToyCannon
Our Dan Evans is now an agent? I like these guys who miss on becoming GM's and becoming agents.

62
Your expectations for Loaiza are colored by his time with the A's. The same reason Billy gave him that deal in the 1st place is still true.

61
The Rays need a defensive SS not an offensive whiz. Bartlett will fit in perfectly and the current rotation of Kazmir/Garza/Shields/Howell/Neiman/E Jackson/Sonnanstine and a bullpen that now includes Wheeler, Reyes and Rincon. With Price, McGee, and W Davis 3 of the top ten pitching prospects in baseball they will have plenty to choose from as they decide who to keep and who to deal.

Kazmir would fetch a ton this winter.

The outfield right now will be Crawford/Upton/Baldelli with Gomes manning DH. Old friends Guzman and Ruggiano will back them up. And cellmate Mr. Dukes is still hanging around. With Pena/Iwamura/Barlett/Longoria they are also set in the infield.

D Young has has the same plate discipline issues that Mr. Kemp needs to overcome and his power just hasn't been very impressive. Even with D Young being a number one pick, I'd expect Matt Kemp is looked on more favorably in the baseball world. Plus he doesn't have the stigma of having thrown a bat at an umpire, only moving a trashcan.

Oh, they also get the number one pick this year, so Mr. Alveraz your future is waiting for you in Tampa.

2007-11-28 12:49:48
77.   CajunDodger
18
I am getting into this a bit late, but why should we care how much Loaiza costs? Colletti got him as a rental that we didn't have to give up anything but money for, so if he works out great, if not, Torre will not hesitate to use whatever resources are at his disposal.

Two more thoughts:

1) Given the arm problems many young starters have had with the jump from the minors to the majors (Liriano, young Weaver, Josh Johnson, Anibal Sanchez), I think that it is a blessing in disguise that Bills has so little mileage on his arm. He has now had two years to ramp up his innings to the 200+ level instead of making the jump in a single season. It sucked watching Tomdrickson, but it helped us in the long run.

2) With regards to what Jon said about a veteran pitcher signing blocking a youngster, I don't think that will be an issue unless two FA pitchers are signed long term. Lowe and Loaiza are gone after this year, with Penny and Schmidt after 2009. Any signing we make this year for a Kuroda or someone like Silva would not block any of our youth in the long term. Kershaw still has not sniffed Vegas, Elbert needs another year to ensure that his arm is OK, and McDonald has a spot open if anything at all goes wrong this season.

2007-11-28 12:50:21
78.   Eric Stephen
On balance, I like this deal for the Twins. But, I think they have a very real chance at winning their division in 2008, IF they keep Johan.

If they trade Garza AND Johan, their rotation would look like:

Liriano (age 24 in 2008)
Bonser (26)
Baker (26)
Slowey (24)
Pitcher received for Johan

That's still a good rotation, but add in Johan and Garza and it's at or near the top of the league.

On the other hand, their offense improves with Young and I'm assuming they would receive a 2B/3B and/or OF in the Johan deal.

I don't remember a trade with two really good young players (both Young & Garza are 22) for some time, maybe since the Dodgers traded a 21-year old pitcher with a 148 ERA+ over 115 IP for a 24-year old 2B with a .277/.367/.373, 106 OPS+.

2007-11-28 12:50:55
79.   Lexinthedena
75- Kemp without a doubt.....but Young is going to help the Twins so much...This deal helps both teams a lot IMO...
2007-11-28 12:51:44
80.   JoeyP
72--True.
Only 27 walks in 771 major league at bats.

That was in his age 20/age21 years, but plate discipline just might be a thing that cant be learned at the big league level. That is, if a player didnt walk in the minors, he wont in the majors.

2007-11-28 12:52:28
81.   regfairfield
76 How cute, you think Baldelli is actually going to play this year :).
2007-11-28 12:52:32
82.   Jon Weisman
72 - Is that more walks than Kemp?
2007-11-28 12:53:00
83.   CajunDodger
76
If you live in the Pasadena area, his new office digs are next door to my family's favorite Thai place: Saladang Song on Fair Oaks. The office is kind of a little hole in the wall with lots of nice cars outside.
2007-11-28 12:53:48
84.   LogikReader
semi-relate note:

I like to think the "on the farm" updates at Dodger Stadium started indirectly because of Dodger Thoughts.

carry on!

2007-11-28 12:55:37
85.   Jon Weisman
From Gurnick:

"Catcher Chad Moeller, impressive in a September callup but taken off the Major League roster, signed with Washington."

Moeller had a single and HBP in nine plate appearances over seven games. He caught 29 innings.

2007-11-28 12:55:42
86.   ToyCannon
How can you forget Upton? He's the best player on the team and will be one of the best players in baseball next year. Speed, power, plate discipline, playing CF, who just had one of the best age 22 seasons ever.

Course his brother will probably make that age 22 season look like chickenfeed when he does it. I'm so glad that the Diamondbacks will not control little Upton during his peak years.

2007-11-28 12:56:03
87.   regfairfield
82 Nope, 90 unintentional in the last three years.
2007-11-28 12:56:09
88.   blue22
78 - The current rumor has Hughes, Melky, and Austin Jackson going for Santana. Though with trading for Delmon, maybe they try to get Cano instead of Melky.
2007-11-28 12:57:30
89.   Xeifrank
75. Kemp in a landslide. Even if Delmon Young is a hometown boy.
vr, Xei
2007-11-28 12:58:33
90.   blue22
86 - How can you forget Upton?

TB's insistence that he was actually a second baseman for so long...

2007-11-28 12:59:01
91.   ToyCannon
80
I used to think that but Jose Reyes changed my mind and then when I created my list of great young seasons several of those players developed much better plate discipline as they got older.
2007-11-28 13:00:08
92.   CajunDodger
88
I know that the Twins have no interest in fairness, but a Hughes/Cano for Johan swap would fair and beneficial for both teams.
2007-11-28 13:01:31
93.   ToyCannon
90
Actually SS, he only played 2nd base for the 1st time in 2007. They tried it and it didn't work out. Doesn't matter where he plays on the defensive spectrum, he will be one of the most exciting offensive players in baseball for the next decade.
2007-11-28 13:04:56
94.   ToyCannon
92
If I was the Twins I'd be trying to get LaRoche, Kershaw, and D Young. I'd love the two D Youngs to get on the same team.
2007-11-28 13:10:27
95.   El Lay Dave
94 I'd love the two D Youngs to get on the same team.

... two of the D Youngs ... don't forget Delmon's older brother in Washington.

2007-11-28 13:14:46
96.   CajunDodger
95

Maybe someone could then pull off the Cabrera Trifecta (Daniel, Miggy, and Melky)

2007-11-28 13:15:07
97.   ToyCannon
Ah yes, the meathook. Came back from oblivion, got rich and can now go back to oblivion. Actually if our D Young can do what the Meathook does that would be cool. Aren't they both short, stocky, switchhitters, who are butchers in the field and started out as infielders?
2007-11-28 13:17:36
98.   blue22
97 - Yeah, I think he was drafted as a third baseman. He used to terrorize my high school when he played against us.
2007-11-28 13:17:38
99.   ToyCannon
85
He was impressive in the bullpen. He had to listen to Roberto everynight and feign interest.
2007-11-28 13:18:25
100.   CajunDodger
97
I would like to see how our D. Young could do in LF with about 400 PAs unfettered by JP looking over his shoulder.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-11-28 13:19:56
101.   Eric Stephen
97 I can't wait for the next Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract to see who is listed with Dmitri Young under the "Drinking Men" category for the aughts. Furcal, Hancock, LaRussa, etc.
2007-11-28 13:20:26
102.   underdog
85 That's what Gurnick deems "impressive"? Gosh.
2007-11-28 13:22:10
103.   FirstMohican
Would the box scores read "Delw. Young" and "Delm. Young"?
2007-11-28 13:23:09
104.   trainwreck
85
But he really took that HBP well.

I swear Gurnick came to Dodger Thoughts and saw us calling for Moeller and thought this guy must be good.

2007-11-28 13:23:18
105.   El Lay Dave
97 98 Dmitri is just plain hefty; he's listed at 6'2". Maybe a 3B once upon a time, but he played 1B/OF throughout the minors.
2007-11-28 13:25:29
106.   silverwidow
Ken Gurnick is talking up Adrian Beltre again. This guy will never get it.

Since he obviously thinks LaRoche is worthless, I'd like for him to explain why Boston or Minnesota would LOVE to get a prospect of that calibre.

2007-11-28 13:25:31
107.   El Lay Dave
101 ...Loaiza...
2007-11-28 13:26:02
108.   Eric Stephen
104 I swear Gurnick came to Dodger Thoughts and saw us calling for Moeller and thought this guy must be good.

Ha!

I actually think if Gurnick were to check in on Dodger Thoughts (assuming of course he doesn't actually hate the team) he would post an article with an opposing view.

2007-11-28 13:28:50
109.   CajunDodger
108
I typically try to keep my negative opinions of sportswriters to myself (save for Plaschke and Simers), but Gurnick seems to have a sarcastic/negative sort of vein running through all of his Q&A columns on the Dodger site. You can certainly tell that his checks come from MLB rather than Chavez Ravine.
2007-11-28 13:32:43
110.   ToyCannon
105
He looks much shorter on TV, probably due to his heft.
2007-11-28 13:34:20
111.   ToyCannon
100
Not as good as Andre Ethier will do.
2007-11-28 13:35:58
112.   Jon Weisman
Hopefully, he's not wondering whether Moeller could have been converted to third base.
2007-11-28 13:41:08
113.   ToyCannon
Is this where the World Series will be held
http://tinyurl.com/373zdp
in 2012?
2007-11-28 13:44:09
114.   Bob Timmermann
113
Are they going to switch to a neutral site?
2007-11-28 13:49:24
115.   El Lay Dave
113 Only 4/7 of a WS at the most.

34,000 seats? 34,000??

2007-11-28 13:50:06
116.   ToyCannon
114
???
2007-11-28 13:52:30
117.   ToyCannon
115
Yeah, I love that part. They know they will never draw 40-50 thousand fans, so build a small, intimate stadium.
2007-11-28 13:53:13
118.   LogikReader
114 116

The implication is that Tampa Bay will not actually be in the world series that year but will let the other teams play at their stadium.

A far fetched joke, but I LOL'd it.

2007-11-28 13:53:14
119.   Bob Timmermann
116
The only way that stadium would host World Series games in 2012 is if they are played at an alternate site.
2007-11-28 13:53:35
120.   MikeB
Prudent Choices?
By trade: Santana, Bedard, Haren, Blanton, ???
By FA: Silva, Lohse, Jennings, Colon, Prior, Gagne, Wolf, ???
By Minors: Meloan, Houlton, Stults, Elbert, Kershaw, McDonald, ???

Ned has to be careful. He's building a team for Joe that has to perform well for the next 3 years, not just 2008.

2007-11-28 13:53:48
121.   ToyCannon
Olney also reporting that Percival is headed to the Rays. Can't wait to see Bob do his rebus. A new word I learned today.
2007-11-28 13:53:56
122.   LogikReader
117

..and, the A's will probably do the same thing. Hey, you gotta know your limitations.

2007-11-28 13:54:54
123.   ToyCannon
119
Oh, a non-believer. By 2010 you will be a believer. By 2012 it will not be their 1st.
2007-11-28 13:54:54
124.   LogikReader
When I think "rebus" I think "Alex Trebek"

Or Hugh Downs

2007-11-28 13:57:20
125.   trainwreck
113
They made a rendering of the stadium and it looks really nice and unique.

http://tinyurl.com/3c34lq

2007-11-28 13:58:58
126.   Lexinthedena
100- Oue D Young is the true Minny Manny.....He is such a hitter.....he will be Manny minus 20.....
2007-11-28 13:59:20
127.   Lexinthedena
*Our
2007-11-28 14:00:51
128.   underdog
123 And Dodger Stadium will be the other host in that series. Too bad Delwyn vs Delmon won't happen then.
2007-11-28 14:01:20
129.   Disabled List
http://tinyurl.com/ywk9hm

Terrific blog post on the economics of baseball vs. football, particularly in regards to the discrepancies in player salaries.

2007-11-28 14:02:56
130.   Marty
Would people here rather have Matt Kemp or Delmon Young?

Delmon Young would have flattened the trash can with a baseball bat.

2007-11-28 14:05:36
131.   underdog
Here you go, Bob - for your next free agent signing rebus on The Griddle:
http://tinyurl.com/2vbvus
2007-11-28 14:11:10
132.   MikeB
"Former West Los Angeles College and Santa Monica College star Rodney McCray was also named as the Dodgers' roving minor league baserunning and outfield coach."

Has it been noted yet that both of those schools discontinued their baseball programs?

2007-11-28 14:12:34
133.   jasonungar07
All Ned has to do is look around round
Look around round round
Look around...

and maybe some pitching will come out to play.

2007-11-28 14:14:49
134.   ToyCannon
120
Leiber is my choice even though you didn't think enough of him to list him. Short contract for a reasonable amount of money with a good chance he'll outperform Silva, Lohse, Jenning, Wolf, and Colon. He's been better then a league average pitcher 9 out of 13 years. Didn't fare very well in offensive park at Philly. Home run ball is a worry but if were just looking for insurance until Kershaw, McDonald, and Elbert are ready, he's my pick.
You also don't have Kuroda on the FA list, and we did send a 3 man contingent to talk to him so that is not just some empty rumor.
2007-11-28 14:15:22
135.   ToyCannon
Lieber
2007-11-28 14:16:09
136.   Disabled List
Re: Matt Kemp vs. the trashcan

Has anyone made the "Stay away from the cans! He hates those cans!" joke about that? I think of that line every time I see someone make a trashcan reference.

2007-11-28 14:16:20
137.   LogikReader
133

Was always a fan of the Siouxie and the Banshees version. All the songs they did after that... not so much.

2007-11-28 14:18:04
138.   MikeB
134 I guess Lieber was the ??? I think he's a viable option as well. No disrespect intended.
2007-11-28 14:23:09
139.   underdog
136 Hah.
But I think Kent was the real "Jerk" there.

"The new phone book's here! The new phone book's here!"

2007-11-28 14:27:32
140.   Humma Kavula
133 Jason, is your baby here?
2007-11-28 14:28:33
141.   underdog
Jose Cruz, Jr. returns to the land his father once roamed, signing (a minor league deal) with the Astros.
2007-11-28 14:33:00
142.   ToyCannon
137
I've seen her a few times. She had an intoxicating way about her when performing. My wife can't her, says it all sounds the same, but then she doesn't like Neil Young so I discount her musical taste. Neil and Siouxie are better listened to alone anyway.
2007-11-28 14:34:24
143.   ToyCannon
141
April 2007 seems like a long time ago now for Cruz Junior.
2007-11-28 14:37:43
144.   silverwidow
At Foxsports, someone said Hunter told Stephen A. Smith that Santana will to New York and only New York.
2007-11-28 14:40:57
145.   MC Safety
142 The record On the Beach by Neil Young is awesome.
2007-11-28 14:42:03
146.   natepurcell
144

how would hunter know?

If i were the twins...my package for Santana

Cano
Hughes
Austin Jackson

Then sign Cameron to play CF

that lineup would be awesome.

2007-11-28 14:43:56
147.   Lexinthedena
I just read on ESPN that the Ynaks are making Cano and Joba (Very Motal Kombat) off limits....
2007-11-28 14:44:29
148.   LogikReader
Hunter sounds like a lot of fun.

Last night, during the Laker game, he admitted that his signing was mapped out at a Del Taco!

2007-11-28 14:46:15
149.   LogikReader
Link to above

http://tinyurl.com/yqurzv

Apologies if already linked.

Del Taco: Hi may I take your order?
Reagins: Yes, I'd like a taco, a macho burrito, and Torii Hunter.
Del Taco: Want fries with that?

2007-11-28 14:48:34
150.   silverwidow
I was watching some clips of Daric Barton on the A's site; his swing looks BEASTLY.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-11-28 14:56:36
151.   blue22
147 - Then they probably don't get Santana. The Twins just got their OFer, and don't need Melky anymore. I'd be asking for Cano and Hughes, though they also seem to really like this Austin Jackson kid.
2007-11-28 14:56:43
152.   Kevin Lewis
125

Do I get to put a quarter in and run the motor boats from the side?

2007-11-28 14:57:27
153.   blue22
151 - Or what nate said in 146 .
2007-11-28 14:57:39
154.   bhsportsguy
Two hangups on the USC going to the Rose Bowl plan.
1. USC and UCLA are scheduled to play at home on November 8th.
2. I cannot see Pasadena and the surrounding communities sign off on the 100% increase of football games.

Also, USC would face a much larger issue of getting their students out to the games.

In 2009, there are two dates where both schools are scheduled to play home games at the same time. Because of that, there are only 9 combined home dates for both schools.

2007-11-28 14:58:11
155.   Lexinthedena
151- It also said that the Mets are a player....

Who could they offer?.....Pelfrey and what else?....doesn't seem like Milleadge has much value now that Young is in town...

2007-11-28 15:00:36
156.   trainwreck
155
Twins should ask for Martinez and Mulvey.
2007-11-28 15:01:43
157.   trainwreck
They also have Guerra and Gomez to offer.

But if they gave up any of those guys, their weak system would be terrible, so I do not expect the Mets to get him.

2007-11-28 15:02:24
158.   scareduck
Sometimes, not spending money is cheap. Other times, it's prudent. We can all disagree on where to make the distinction, but if you don't accept that there is a distinction, you're lost.

... or Kevin Malone.

2007-11-28 15:03:56
159.   blue22
155 - Yeah, I'd say the Twins are done acquiring ML-ready OFers, unless it's a low-cost acquisition like Coco Crisp. The infield is where they'd be looking for help.
2007-11-28 15:04:22
160.   underdog
I have this feeling - and it's just a feeling - that Santana will be dealt during the season, when other teams get more desperate, or when the Twins are more desperate to unload him and get something in return. It's just a feeling...
2007-11-28 15:04:24
161.   The Mootz
Here's the first and last time you'll hear this chant: "Hip-hip! Tiffee!"
2007-11-28 15:04:35
162.   bhsportsguy
157 Dan Guerrero came out of his office to say that UCLA is allowing USC to negotiate with the Rose Bowl for a one-time, one-year deal in lieu of USC's ongoing issues with the Coliseum Commission.

He then went back and closed the door awaiting Saturday's game.

2007-11-28 15:05:25
163.   Bob Timmermann
131
Sending me the pictures ahead of time really defeats the purpose of creating a puzzle.
2007-11-28 15:07:34
164.   trainwreck
162
I am ignoring this issue.

So how about that George Washington game tonight?

2007-11-28 15:07:49
165.   underdog
163 I wouldn't answer!

Er, wait. Other people read this blog, too, don't they?

Okay, never mind. That name really doesn't lend itself to a very good rebus puzzle, though you've proven me wrong before.

2007-11-28 15:08:59
166.   blue22
160 - I think they could get more for him now though, considering the acquiring team gets him for a full year, plus the extra time used for negotiating an extension. If they wait until the July deadline, he becomes a 2-month mercenary.
2007-11-28 15:12:45
167.   underdog
The most aptly-titled film in my new pile of straight to video screeners, you ask?
"Forget About It"

Stars: Burt Reynolds, Richard Grieco, Phyllis Diller(!), and Raquel Welch.

2007-11-28 15:13:44
168.   bhsportsguy
164 Do you think Collison should play yet, though I am looking forward to seeing him play D.J. on Sunday.
2007-11-28 15:14:14
169.   bhsportsguy
163 Did you get Dan Guerrero's email?
2007-11-28 15:16:17
170.   trainwreck
168
Maybe a few minutes, but I would probably just have him sit.
2007-11-28 15:16:27
171.   LogikReader
I'd have done it this way.

USC Mascot,

Percy, dog from Pocahontas movie

+

Valerie Hogan

- Lake Eerie

2007-11-28 15:17:03
172.   LogikReader
Erie not Eerie.
2007-11-28 15:17:39
173.   LogikReader
Won-ders, not O-nee-ders
2007-11-28 15:19:12
174.   trainwreck
168
Apparently, there are going to be a ton of recruits at the Texas game. Possibly even a few big time national recruits, so I want us to put on a real good showing then.

That includes the crowd, you got to rile them up BH.

2007-11-28 15:22:23
175.   jystakes
Yasuhiko Yabuta to KC Royals...two year deal. Didn't know KC could attract japanese pitchers.
2007-11-28 15:25:41
176.   El Lay Dave
175 Can't wait for the rebus.
2007-11-28 15:28:16
177.   DodgerBakers
173 Oh man, I loved that movie.
2007-11-28 15:28:23
178.   Bob Timmermann
175
KC can even attract Japanese managers.

Or Americans who have managed in Japan.

2007-11-28 15:30:28
179.   thinkblue0
If this Young trade goes through, it'll be really interesting to see what happens with Santana. I can't think of any scenario where the Yanks could land him without giving up Cano and Hughes/Chamberlain.

On a side note, I really hope we're at the top of the list for Kuroda. Looking at the market, I'm just as terrified of a Lohse signing as I am Rowand. Heck, I'd rather just plug Houlton in than give a guy like Lohse a sizeable contract.

2007-11-28 15:30:34
180.   underdog
I guess the Royals gave up on Kuroda and went after a lesser-known guy instead?
2007-11-28 15:35:44
181.   regfairfield
159 I wouldn't say that. Right now their outfield is Young/Tyner/Cuddyer with Kubel at DH. That could definately use some improvement.
2007-11-28 15:38:09
182.   thinkblue0
181-

True. But now they do have a middle of the order that's some combination of Young, Mauer, and Moreneau. If they found some way to pry Hughes and Cano from the Yanks, they'd be replacing Garza and replacing Hunter with Young with the added bonus of being able to plug in Cano.

So far, I really like what the Twins are doing.

2007-11-28 15:45:10
183.   Robert Daeley
MLB.com "Moreno frustrated over Cabrera talks"

http://tinyurl.com/35cwtk

'"I've felt we had a deal with them twice," Moreno said of the Marlins, who apparently cut bait and decided they needed more in exchange for the 24-year-old slugger....

'"It's going to be hard to give up that talent," he said. "They're doing it to everybody. I read that the Dodgers' [general manager] Ned Colletti had a deal, and they changed [players] on him.'

2007-11-28 15:46:37
184.   Eric Stephen
179
If the Young-Garza et al trade goes through, the Twins' non-MVP infield looks like this:

2B - Alexi Casilla
SS - Brendan Harris
3B - Nick Punto

It seems a must that the Twins get Cano and Melky (or Austin Jackson), plus a pitcher in a Santana deal.

Delmon and Cuddyer are 2/3 of a good OF, but they need a CF to round it out. This lineup is potentially really good:

C - Mauer
1B - Morneau
2B - Cano
3B - Casilla/Punto
SS - Harris
LF - Cuddyer
CF - Melky
RF - Young

with a potentially great young staff:

SP - Liriano
SP - Hughes
SP - Slowey
SP - Perkins
SP - Baker/Bonser
CL - Nathan
RP - Neshek
RP - Guerrier

Who knows if the Yankees would give up those three for Santana, but if I'm the Twins I settle for nothing less.

2007-11-28 15:48:50
185.   Eric Stephen
184 I forgot to plug in Kubel at DH in the Twins' lineup.
2007-11-28 15:49:15
186.   thinkblue0
184-

Couldn't agree more. The Twins are in the driver seat right now. If the Yanks REALLY want Santana, they're going to have to give up a package of Hughes/Joba, Cano, Melky.

Just talked to James Shields, he said the Garza deal was essentially done. Take it for what it's worth.

2007-11-28 15:49:31
187.   Marty
I love that a Minnesota columnist wrote that the Twins should include Carlos Selva in a Santana package to the Red Sox. He also thought Theo would be willing to give up every cheap, good young player he has.
2007-11-28 15:50:18
188.   thinkblue0
183-

That's got to be really irritating. The Marlins need to just decide on a deal, and do it. It's either that, or you lose him to free agency.

2007-11-28 15:50:38
189.   Jon Weisman
183 - Wow, if their GM were named DePodesta, the baseball community would already have the tar and feathers at the ready.
2007-11-28 15:51:10
190.   trainwreck
183
Too bad we will probably never know what Ned offered.
2007-11-28 15:51:47
191.   thinkblue0
189-

HA!

2007-11-28 15:53:01
192.   Eric Stephen
186 ust talked to James Shields, he said the Garza deal was essentially done

Name dropper! :)

2007-11-28 15:54:02
193.   blue22
183 - So it was Cabrera that Ned was referring to in that "I thought we had a deal until they walked away" comment! This is encouraging! It means Ned won't give into their demands (yet).

181 - Mr. Stephen here has expanded on what I was referring to in 159 . Their non-Delmon OF looks better than their non-Morneau infield. If they can dangle Santana for a stud OFer or stud IFer, I bet they try to upgrade the infield.

184 - It's also a very strong possibility they dump Nathan as well.

2007-11-28 15:54:26
194.   thinkblue0
192-

lol. I grew up with the guy!

2007-11-28 15:54:47
195.   Kevin Lewis
190

Is it possible that what we offered will start to look good in comparison to the Angels? This is one fickle ball club.

2007-11-28 15:54:51
196.   fiddlestick
At what point can we just sign or trade for a new second baseman? There's already a precedent that if you don't make up your mind to come back in some arbitrarily determined timeframe, it's an indication that your heart's not in it anymore.

If they Yankees trade Cano, they'll need a 2B.

2007-11-28 15:55:28
197.   thinkblue0
193-

could you imagine the combined haul they'd get if they really did decide to deal Santana AND Nathan? Sheesh.

2007-11-28 15:56:27
198.   thinkblue0
196-

I think it's pretty settled that Kent will be back.

2007-11-28 15:56:29
199.   fiddlestick
If there ever was an example about how unprogressive baseball is, it's that anecdote Moreno related.

I don't even think shady car dealers try the bait-and-switch anymore.

2007-11-28 15:58:04
200.   fiddlestick
198-- I forgot the tongue-in-cheek It's just fun to see who gets the mercurial treatment and who doesn't.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-11-28 15:58:06
201.   KG16
198 - is it? I think that's the assumption a lot of people are making, but I've seen no indications from Kent or the Dodgers that he'll actually be back...
2007-11-28 16:00:54
202.   blue22
201 - From the OC Register earlier this week:

"He wants to play," GM Ned Colletti said. "Not once did I hear an indication that Jeff Kent is retiring. If he had a change of heart, I would have heard about it."

I guess that's not 100%, but it's seems a pretty safe bet.

2007-11-28 16:01:15
203.   thinkblue0
201-

There have been numerous quotes from Ned and others in the Dodgers organization that point to Kent coming back.

2007-11-28 16:02:50
204.   Eric Stephen
I also forgot to include in 184 that Craig Monroe fits into the OF/DH mix somehow as well.
2007-11-28 16:05:29
205.   KG16
202 , 203 - ah, ok, hadn't seen that, thanks. the last I'd heard was the whole Larry King ordeal when Kent basically said, "I haven't decided yet".
2007-11-28 16:07:00
206.   thinkblue0
205-

I'd be shocked if he doesn't come back at this point.

2007-11-28 16:09:43
207.   blue22
206 - If by "shocked" you mean "overcome with joy", then yes, I'd be shocked too.
2007-11-28 16:10:18
208.   Eric Stephen
I kind of want Kent to retire just to measure Ned's reaction vs. his meltdown when J.D. Drew opted out.

That said, I do want Kent back for one final year of curmudgeonry.

2007-11-28 16:10:36
209.   thinkblue0
207-

hahah...I'm not a big fan of the guy either, but he does still produce at a decent rate.

2007-11-28 16:14:09
210.   regfairfield
207 Wheee! We don't have a productive second baseman anymore.

Wait, that doesn't seem right.

2007-11-28 16:21:37
211.   Kevin Lewis
Didn't Kent originally say he would announce it by the end of November? I get the impression he is waiting to see what kind of deals Ned might make.
2007-11-28 16:21:46
212.   das411
166 - Carlos Guillen and Freddy Garcia say hi.

Can anybody tell me why the Rays are not trying to trade Delmon for Johan straight-out? Is Garza really this good...or has Delmon's value fallen this quickly?

2007-11-28 16:22:58
213.   trainwreck
Because Johan would make as much as almost the entire Rays payroll.
2007-11-28 16:23:43
214.   regfairfield
212 They can't afford Johan and probably won't be very good next year, if I had to guess.
2007-11-28 16:31:10
215.   Bluebleeder87
curmudgeonry

Curmudwhat??

2007-11-28 16:31:11
216.   sweepstakes
105 I went to high school with Dmitri Young; he finished three years ahead of me. Back then he was playing shortstop.
2007-11-28 16:37:45
217.   Eric Stephen
216 I went to high school with Dmitri Young; he finished three years ahead of me

It took you 7 years to finish high school??? :)

2007-11-28 16:39:06
218.   Suffering Bruin
216 I interviewed Dmitri at Rio Mesa High School the year before he was drafted. He has "grown" since, no?

Kinda snarky... the point is, Dmitri was the absolute definition of a "buffed" athlete in high school.

2007-11-28 16:40:30
219.   Xeifrank
216. Oh, we have a Spartan in the house. I scored the last goal of my high school soccer career there.
vr, Xei
2007-11-28 16:42:39
220.   sweepstakes
217 I was a freshman when he was a senior.

218 He was thick, buffed out then. He's much bigger now.

2007-11-28 16:43:12
221.   Suffering Bruin
Marion Jones became a high school sensation at Rio Mesa before she transferred to Thousand Oaks where she became a high school sensation.
2007-11-28 16:43:33
222.   sweepstakes
219 Yes, where did you go?
2007-11-28 16:44:02
223.   Suffering Bruin
If I'm not mistaken, Jones and Young attended Rio Mesa at the same time, albeit briefly.
2007-11-28 16:44:37
224.   Xeifrank
221. Here name is plastered all over the Gym at Rio Mesa for all her track records.

222. a Bulldog.

vr, Xei

2007-11-28 16:45:39
225.   Ken Noe
211 Agreed. My pet theory all along has been that Kent has been waiting to see if Colletti would pull off a big, Rosenthalish deal for veterans before he fully committed to return. I'm curious to see how he reacts to this public display of affection for Kemp, et al, instead. I'm not convinced he'll want to take part if he can get his money with another team.
2007-11-28 16:47:17
226.   sweepstakes
221 I remember the brass telling us how great our school was at churning out athletes, heaps of praise for her at the pep rallies. When she transfered to T.O, it was quite the buzz.
2007-11-28 16:47:27
227.   Suffering Bruin
HEE who shall not be named is in the news.

http://tinyurl.com/2fpf2a

2007-11-28 16:47:28
228.   Xeifrank
225. Do you think Kent might ask to be traded to a team with more PVL if there is no big Rosenthalish deal and Kemp et al avoid the Perfect Storm? vr, Xei
2007-11-28 16:48:12
229.   bhsportsguy
228 Nah, he'll just retire.
2007-11-28 16:48:13
230.   Xeifrank
227. Again? SFW?
vr, Xei
2007-11-28 16:48:46
231.   Marty
Kent would probably want to play for the Cincinnati Bakers.
2007-11-28 16:49:25
232.   Suffering Bruin
I never understood why Marion left Rio Mesa for Thousand Oaks.
2007-11-28 16:49:55
233.   Jimi Shelter
If it's not too late, I'd like to get on the roster. Can I be the one after 909? That is, I'll take 910 for my number. Thanks!
2007-11-28 16:50:05
234.   Xeifrank
231. Are they a minor league affiliate of the Amarillo Dirt Bikers?
vr, Xei
2007-11-28 16:51:25
235.   sweepstakes
232 She asked me to Sadie Hawkins and I said no.
2007-11-28 16:51:44
236.   Suffering Bruin
230 Well, every now and again, I like to bring back the memories of MFABE.

As for the news: she's rich, pretty, and her parents approve. Yep, Hee, run as fast your legs can carry you.

2007-11-28 16:52:00
237.   Xeifrank
232. Alot of the big name female Ventura County atheletes bolted for T.O. High School in the 90s. Marion Jones was not only a great track athelete but a top notch basketball player. I believe one of the Palmasano girls transfered to T.O. also. Kind of like a recruiting/exposure thing.
vr, Xei
2007-11-28 16:53:23
238.   Suffering Bruin
232 A man, a woman, a broken heart. The oldest story in the world. Know this now, the taking of HGH seems all the more understandable. I hope you're happy! :)
2007-11-28 16:55:34
239.   Suffering Bruin
237 Makes sense. She was an incredible athlete. There wasn't a person who covered or was involved in Ventura County sports who didn't think she was going to be world famous. She was that good.
2007-11-28 16:55:45
240.   Kevin Lewis
228

I guess it depends on the team. It is crazy to think that Kent is guaranteed more money for next year than I will ever make in a lifetime, and there is a possibility he might turn it down.

2007-11-28 17:00:37
241.   Jon Weisman
233 - Put it in the other thread.

238 - Older than "A man, a plan, a canal ..."?

2007-11-28 17:03:37
242.   Ken Noe
Somehow I just see Kent in pinstripes, standing at first, sneering.
2007-11-28 17:07:17
243.   underdog
Funny, I ran track in high school in the same league that Rio Mesa was in, but a few years before Jones. (And I think Young was a freshman when I was a senior, but did see our baseball game against RM that year.)
2007-11-28 17:11:11
244.   trainwreck
I like how Hee-seop had a press conference to announce his engagement.

Now that is big time.

2007-11-28 17:11:38
245.   Bob Timmermann
When you see a world-class track athlete in high school, it's really impressive. They are so far ahead of their competition, that it looks like they aren't even breaking a sweat.

I went to high school with the Howard sisters (Sherri, Tina, and Deneane) and they won a state championship in track for my high school all by themselves. I think they got 48 points at the state meet. The coach found a non-Howard sister to fill out the two relays.

2007-11-28 17:13:24
246.   Dodgers49
In L.A., Dodgers become an afterthought

>> In the poker game that is free agency, the Dodgers are the guy who folds immediately after he sees his hand, drinks a beer or two and then goes home early. <<

## And they can forget Andruw Jones. Apparently his career-low batting average of .222 last season didn't dissuade his agent, Scott Boras, from asking for another absurdly large sum of money. ##

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21998479

2007-11-28 17:18:49
247.   Prophetic
In the interest of beating a dead horse even further, the 2008 Los Angeles Dodgers line-up should be as follows (I don't care how much you're paying Juan Pierre to sit on the bench):

1. Rafael Furcal, SS
2. Nomar Garciaparra, 3B (at least until Andy LaRoche takes over)
3. Matt Kemp, CF
4. James Loney, 1B
5. Russell Martin, C
6. Andre Ethier, RF
7. Delwyn Young, LF
8. Tony Abreu (or Jeff Kent, in which case you move Kent up to 6 and drop Ethier and Young), 2B
9. Pitcher's Spot

From top to bottom, this is a championship winning line-up. These kids will only get better as the year goes on when given the confidence that comes with full-time starting jobs and this is easily at least competitive with the Colorado Rockies team that got to the World Series this year (even without a Matt Holliday) and sets us up to be much better than that in the near future.

And the starting rotation goes like this:
1. Brad Penny
2. Chad Billingsley
3. Derek Lowe
4. Jason Schmidt
5. Esteban Loaiza

You can give either Bartolo Colon or Randy Wolf short-term, incentive-laden contracts to back that up and at some point you've got young kids coming up behind all these guys.

At the end of the day, we can do without trading anyone (except Juan Pierre) and we will when a championship at some point over the course of Joe Torre's contract.

2007-11-28 17:19:05
248.   Xeifrank
246. Funny analogy. I see it more as the Dodgers are the guy sitting at the Blackjack table holding a hard-18 while the dealer has a face card showing, and signing Andruw Jones would be like hitting an 18. vr, Xei
2007-11-28 17:19:21
249.   Jon Weisman
BA's rule 5 preview mentions Jesus Castillo, not Wesley Wright

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/265252.html

2007-11-28 17:21:24
250.   underdog
246 Oh man. If only Ventre had read Jon's post here, it would've saved him the embarrassment of posting yet another idiotic column suggesting the Dodgers are (in his words) like nerds at the high school dance (hey, what's wrong with that anyway?!) if they don't snatch any of these high/overpriced free agents.

Honestly, it's enough to make you want to throw up your hands in exasperation. Or just, you know..

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-11-28 17:23:29
251.   jystakes
247 IMO, I just don't see that lineup sniffing a championship. Competing for the NL West yes. World Series champs? No.
2007-11-28 17:26:23
253.   underdog
251 I do. In 2009.
2007-11-28 17:27:42
254.   Jimi Shelter
241.
233 - Put it in the other thread.

Makes sense! But since your Beatle ref in the subject title inspired mine I put it here without thinking. :-)

2007-11-28 17:28:30
255.   regfairfield
247 You have three replacement level hitters in that lineup in Nomar, Abreu, and Young and no one that can really prop them up. That's far from championship winning.
2007-11-28 17:32:59
256.   jystakes
253 - Agreed. Provided that you replace Nomar with Laroche, and Loaiza with Kershaw, and probably have Broxton closing at that point.
2007-11-28 17:33:53
257.   Eric Enders
250 The thing with the nerds at the high school dance is, they end up being your boss ten years later.
2007-11-28 17:35:05
258.   KG16
242 - Kent for Betimet!

251 - Actually, I think that line up can win the NL West, and then depending on the match ups in the play offs, I could see it win in the play offs.

2007-11-28 17:35:15
259.   Ken Noe
The key to the Ventre column is the last paragraph which is about...the almighty Sawx. If Colorado somehow had beaten Boston, these guys would be calling Colletti a genius right now for deciding to go with the kids. Attention spans are short, I guess.
2007-11-28 17:35:33
260.   Bob Timmermann
257
In my case, it took 24 years, but the point still is true.
2007-11-28 17:40:45
261.   underdog
I was a nerd at the high school dance, basically (actually I was a "freak" with "geek" tendencies) and I'm now only a boss two a couple of people. That's not good enough! It wasn't worth it!

Also, I think Ventre's boss probably fits that description.

2007-11-28 17:40:50
262.   MJW101
Since Kent is possibly undecided about coming back maybe Ned could trade Kent, Pierre and Stults to Texas (they need a CF and a 1B/DH) for players Texas would like to get rid of such as Padilla.

To Texas:
Kent $11M
Pierre $8M + $28.5M
Stults $390K

To Baltimore:
D. Lowe $10M
Hendrickson $3.9M
E. Abreu $390K
Scott Elbert $62K
Ramon Troncoso $62K
Blake DeWitt $62K
Ivan DeJesus $62K
Vincente Padilla $11M
Jason Botts $390K

To LAD:
Miguel Tejada $13M
Erik Bedard $7M

If we trade Kent and obtained Tejada he could replace Kent at 2B (same or better offense, better defense) if we gave him a contract extension. Tejada wants to play for a competitive team.

Texas is looking for a CF and a 1B/DH which Pierre and Kent (closer to home) would be PERFECT for. Texas is probably not happy with Padilla considering his production vs his cost.

Baltimore could have Lowe replace Bedard for 08 with Elbert ready for 2009. Padilla provides starting depth for 2008-10. Position players Abreu/DeWitt/DeJesus/Botts replace Tejada and provide depth in a rebuilding organization. Relief pitchers Hendrickson and Troncoso strengthen a weak Oriole bullpen.

The LAD OF would be Kemp/Furcal/Ethier.
The LAD IF would be Loney/Tejada/Hu/LaRoche

Kent and Pierre would be history.

The LAD rotation would be:
Penny/Bedard/Bills/Schmidt/Loaiza/McDonald

2007-11-28 17:42:40
263.   underdog
9 people traded to Baltimore? Has there have been a trade where that many players have gone to a single team? I like your thinking outside the box, but... it ain't gonna happen.
2007-11-28 17:43:22
264.   Eric Enders
I'm not sure that trade would help the Dodgers in either the short term or the long term.
2007-11-28 17:48:08
265.   Jon Weisman
It's an Ollie Matson!
2007-11-28 17:51:45
266.   Eric Enders
That was a pretty obscure reference, or at least it was to me.
2007-11-28 17:52:18
267.   MC Safety
262 Thats a 10 of 10 on the Hot Stove Homer Scale.
2007-11-28 17:54:26
268.   Ken Noe
I can imagine a little deal or three, but given NedCo's comments, I don't foresee any blockbusters now, or any JP trades either (because he has "speed"). Sign Kuroda. Swap Beimel to the Brewers for a young starter. Think about Hall or Clark off the bench. If it doesn't work, I believe there are better pickings ahead next year in the FA market.
2007-11-28 17:54:39
269.   Eric Enders
The holdup is that Baltimore is insistent on including Angelos as part of the deal, in exchange for McCourt. That's a deal-killer for the Dodgers.
2007-11-28 17:54:59
270.   Dodgers49
Angels were close to deal for Cabrera . . . twice

"They're looking for four guys, three of them major leaguers and two of them pitchers," Moreno said

http://tinyurl.com/2h4h9k

I'm guessing they would want both Billingsley and the lefthander who shall not be named from the Dodgers.

2007-11-28 17:56:37
271.   natepurcell
262

Come on man, that is definitely not going to work.

2007-11-28 17:57:25
272.   natepurcell
I think Shane Lindsay would be a decent rule 5 draftee gamble.
2007-11-28 17:58:16
273.   Ken Noe
269 The last time Baltimore and LA swapped owners, both cities lost their teams.
2007-11-28 17:59:06
274.   Dodgers49
270 And that's in addition to Kemp and LaRoche.
2007-11-28 18:01:46
275.   natepurcell
My Twins thoughts....

do the Delmon for Garza trade.

do a Cano/Hughes/Austin Jackson trade

do a Joe Nathan for Bill Hall + Manny Parra trade

Sign Cameron to a 2yr contract until Jackson is ready

lineup

C Mauer
1b Morneau
2b Cano
ss Casilla
3b Bill Hall
lf Cuddyer
cf Cameron
RF Young

Liriano
Hughes
Baker
Slowey
Parra

Thats pretty kickass.

2007-11-28 18:02:58
276.   natepurcell
And you have Kubel DHing.
2007-11-28 18:03:40
277.   natepurcell
Sorry, Twins are sort of my second team I kinda follow.
2007-11-28 18:10:37
278.   MC Safety
277 Me too! Justin Morneau was born May 15th! I actually just like Justin Morneau alot, so I might not be a Twins fan for that much longer.
2007-11-28 18:13:26
279.   jystakes
I think the play this off-season is to push as hard as possible to get Johan, Bedard or Cabrerra WITHOUT trading either Bills, Martin, Kemp, Loney or Kershaw. Those 5 are the untouchables. If we can get someone to bite for Broxton, Ethier, Meloan, Hu, etc...let's do it. If not, which is likely the case, then we give Kuroda a 4-5 year 40-50 million dollar deal, pray that Schmidt is 75% the pitcher he once was, try to sign Jones to a 2-year 32 million dollar deal and call it an off-season. If we can't pull of any of those trades and can't get either of those two guys signed, I think it's a bad offseason. I'm not saying we pay any price for Kuroda or Jones, but we have to upgrade in power and pitching, and if we have to overpay a bit, we gotta do it now.

Furcal
Martin
Loney
Jones
Kent
Kemp
Ethier
Laroche

Penny
Bills
Lowe
Kuroda
Schmidt

Now THIS lineup can compete with the big boys for a championship.

2007-11-28 18:18:27
280.   Bluebleeder87
270

It's just to much talent both the Twins & Marlins are asking for I'm glad upper management is staying the course. I also think the Dodgers have a legit chance at Kuroda which is good I guess, I haven't seen him in action to really be excited about him.

2007-11-28 18:25:46
281.   Mark B
I'm a little surprised LA doesn't appear to be more involved in the Santana talks. I'd much rather get him than Cabrera. Our kids may be able to contend for the playoffs during the next year or two, but it's one thing to get there and another thing to win it. Santana obviously helps you get there, and then is a good bet to pick up a pair of wins in each playoff series. There aren't many guys out there like that.

As much as I love the promise of Kemp and Kershaw, I'd strongly consider giving them up in a deal for Santana. Include Broxton to allow MN to trade Nathan, and I have to think that's pretty tempting to the Twins. It's a lot for us to give up, but our rotation would be stout, and the offense we'd lose in Kemp could be at least partially offset by signing Jones (which Ned probably wants to do anyway!). We'd miss all of those guys obviously, but Santana's the kind of player that makes a good young team like we have a serious contender to win it all right now. And obviously we'd still have a great young core to contend for the length of Santana's deal.

Can you imagine rolling out Johan, Bills, and Penny for a playoff series?

2007-11-28 18:34:18
282.   still bevens
281 Not to split hairs but I thought Santana's playoff record isnt that great? Small sample size and all that but hey I work for a law firm. Im a product of my environment.
2007-11-28 18:36:04
283.   Humma Kavula
279 Kavula's Law:

Any Dodger lineup for 2008 or 2009 that does not feature Juan Pierre in CF, or, heaven forfend, LF, is a pipe dream.

(It's also exceedingly likely that he'll be in the 2010 and 2011 lineups -- linesup? -- but I'll resist codifying those years into law at the moment.)

2007-11-28 18:40:48
284.   Bluebleeder87
Can you imagine rolling out Johan, Bills, and Penny for a playoff series?

if everything were to pan out yes, but I can also imagine Johan going the Darren Dreifort way, it's always tricky when a pitcher seeks more than 5 years specially a guy his age (not to mentioned all the talent it's gonna take just to bring him here) I think NedCo is a little gunshy slash wiser now specially knowing what happened to Schmidty. So far I like that he's playing it cool. Sign Kuroda & A. Jones & I'll really call it a successful off season.

ps I'll give the offseason an A+ if we dump Pierre to the white sox or something. ;o)

2007-11-28 18:41:09
285.   Jon Weisman
Strangest case for Sportsman of the Year?

http://tinyurl.com/2at3m3

2007-11-28 18:42:08
286.   Eric Stephen
275 If the Rays deal goes down with 6 players, wouldn't Brendan Harris play SS, at least part of the time? Maybe sort of an offense/defense platoon?

I like the Cameron solution.

2007-11-28 18:48:08
287.   Eric Stephen
284 specially a guy his age

Johan will be 29 on opening day, and has been the best pitcher in MLB for 4 or so years. If there was anyone to give a 6-7 year contract, it's Santana.

2007-11-28 18:52:59
288.   Mark B
Don't know what Santana's playoff history is, but I'd love to take my chances sending him to the mound for Game 1 of a playoff series in a Dodger uniform...

Truth be told, I'm actually thrilled that Ned hasn't done anything significant yet. I wouldn't be at all upset going into 2008 with basically what we have now (plus another starter hopefully). I'm just surprised we seem quick to pass on Santana when we've been in heavy on Cabrera.

2007-11-28 18:53:25
289.   Eric Stephen
282 Santana struggled early out of the pen, but since 2004 he has made 5 starts, and has posted a 2.93 ERA with 26/8 K/BB in 27.2 IP. He is 1-2 in those starts, and the Twins are 2-3 in those 5 games.
2007-11-28 18:54:52
290.   Eric Enders
It says a lot about the emotional scarring experienced by Dodger fans that, whenever someone mentions Johan Santana's name, the first words that come to mind for about 50% of DT posters are "Darren Dreifort."

The two are not similar. Not remotely. Not in any way, shape, or form. The only thing they have in common is that they both made a living throwing baseballs.

2007-11-28 19:04:59
291.   Mark B
Frankly, even the expected Kevin Brown comparison is a little flawed. Brown broke down, but he had that wicked torque in his delivery. And if we'd had any offense during the Brown years, we might remember his stint a little differently.

Santana seems like a guy that will age well (though obviously you never know). Not a real bulky guy, doesn't have a rough delivery at all, and has a great feel for his change-up. All bode well for the future. Eric's right, if there's ever a pitcher that you could feel "good" giving 6/$126 to, he'd be the guy.

Now whether you should ever give that kind of a contract to a pitcher is obviously an open question...

2007-11-28 19:17:21
292.   Bob Timmermann
The Louisville Colonels and the Pittsburgh Pirates had a 17-player trade in 1899. But Louisville was going out of business.

Tacks Latimer was one of the players traded.

He was not the most famous one, but I like the name.

2007-11-28 19:22:42
293.   overkill94
Has the cost ever been this prohibitive to acquire a guy simply so that you can sign him to a market-value contract after a year?

I realize there have been some crazy deadline deals in the past, but at least that was by teams who knew they were on the brink and needed that one extra push.

2007-11-28 19:30:28
294.   Izzy
I think we can mostly all agree that what Theo has done with the Sox is something we can learn from. Seeing what they gave up for Beckett, and what he has meant to the team, makes me want the same thing. Ace pitchers are gold. I think our problem is that they are just way deeper than us. They gave up their prospects and were still loaded. Whereas if we give up guys like Kemp or Loney, well let's just say the 51's were not pretty last year. So, I don't see how we give up those guys with nothing coming up right now (excepting Kershaw.) Logan has been good, but we need more.
2007-11-28 19:32:35
295.   Mark B
It clearly is a high price to pay simply for the right to shell out a huge contract. Unfortunately, if he ever hits the FA market, it's hard to imagine the price wouldn't be absurd once the Yanks, Mets, and Sox get done bidding.

After reading some of the stats and projections over at Bronx Banter about Santana though, I'd be less enthused to give up both Kemp and Kershaw in a Santana deal. Something along the Kershaw/Ethier/Broxton lines might still tempt me. Don't know if that would be enough for MN, but it could end up being a situation where the Twins have location dictated to them based on Santana's no-trade and who's willing to part with young talent AND pony up for an extension.

2007-11-28 19:33:15
296.   trainwreck
Woo hoo. Pepperdine and Northern Arizona went into overtime, so I get to wait to watch UCLA game.
2007-11-28 19:36:49
297.   Lexinthedena
RE: Santana...

The Red Sox gave up Hanley Ramirez (who's offensive skills Kemp reminds me of) for Josh Beckett and it worked out well for them....but the Sox have Manny and Ortiz and thus don't miss Ramirez' bat so much....If the Dodgers give up Kemps bat for Santana, it will be felt...

2007-11-28 19:39:19
298.   Eric Stephen
294 Wouldn't LaRoche, Kershaw & McDonald be at least comparable to what the Yankees are giving up? Maybe mix & match an Ethier or Meloan to seal the deal.

Accepting the inevitability of Pierre in the OF, make that deal and sign Andruw for CF. That of course leaves Nomar at 3B, but hey, we have Santana! :)

2007-11-28 19:57:30
299.   Lexinthedena
I hope the Yanks snatch up Rowand, forcing the Chi-Sox into asking for Pierre.....
2007-11-28 20:00:39
300.   D Money
31

thats a joke right? NO chance shmidt has a chance to be good? he had 1 injured year...previous years he was one of the top NL pitchers if not the best.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-11-28 20:15:33
301.   Bluebleeder87
Johan will be 29 on opening day

I hear you Eric, but I wonder if there's studies done on what age ranges pitchers tend to get hurt (I'm no expert) I'm thinking pitchers are more likely to get hurt (Tommy John surgery or other) in there early 30's of course there are pitchers that are blessed with great arms & never get hurt BUT do you wanna roll the dice SPECIALLY knowing ALL the talent the Dodgers will need to give up? I wouldn't.

2007-11-28 20:15:45
302.   jujibee
Young for Garza deal is complete according to ESPN.
2007-11-28 20:19:33
303.   natepurcell
302

I like it for both teams.

Twins still need work to do.

2007-11-28 20:24:42
304.   jujibee
303. I like it better for the Twins. Young will be a masher and with his leaving, it points to Elijah Dukes to fill his spot. I think Dukes will cause a lot of issues that cannot completely be overcome with the addition of a talented young Garza.
2007-11-28 20:25:19
305.   Bob Timmermann
And they said that deal couldn't be made into a rebus!
2007-11-28 20:40:44
306.   68elcamino427
301 Kofax was how old when he retired?
Drysdale was how old when he retired?

As we drift away from the steroid era, could it be that more value will begin to be placed on higher acheiving, younger players?

2007-11-28 20:43:31
307.   underdog
Very impressive, Bob! I like that one. I think I solved most of it, save one word which still sort of stumps me. (And not the word you think.)
2007-11-28 20:48:49
308.   Bluebleeder87
I was gonna mention this earlier but I forgot. Siouxsie & the banshees version of Dear Prudence absolutely rocks, I also feel a little guilty that I don't really like the Beatles version. [runs!]
2007-11-28 20:55:00
309.   Vishal
what do you guys think would get a santana deal done?

i'm thinking we could do something with laroche, kershaw, and meloan. and throw in pierre :)

2007-11-28 20:58:03
310.   LogikReader
Bob, I don't know what to conclude from the pair of pants picture.

The first three pics are hilarious! This is one of the best rebuses yet.

2007-11-28 20:58:52
311.   LogikReader
310

-- and you said you were no fun!

2007-11-28 20:59:23
312.   Bluebleeder87
Here's a fun/cool fact about the song from Wikipedia>>>The song is about actress Mia Farrow's sister, Prudence, who was present when the Beatles visited Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in India. Prudence, focused on meditation, stayed in her room for the majority of their stay.1 Lennon, who was worried that she was depressed, wrote this song for her, inviting her to "come out to play". While the Beatles left the course, Mia, Prudence, Mike Love of the Beach Boys, and others, stayed and became Transcendental Meditation (or TM) teachers. Prudence now teaches elementary school along with her husband, and they both still practice TM, and advanced versions of it, and may still teach TM.
2007-11-28 21:06:45
313.   natepurcell
We probably have a more than decent chance at landing Kuroda.

1. We are the Dodgers with tradition with Asian pitchers.

2. He is friends with Saito

3. He has the same agent as Saito

4. We would probably offer him the same compensation as other teams.

I also heard he wants to pitch in a warmer climate, so that gives us the edge over the Mariners.

Thinking about it some more, we'll probably sign Kuroda, non-tender Hendrickson and put Loaiza in Hendy's spot.

probably a minimal upgrade as the floor.

2007-11-28 21:11:25
314.   68elcamino427
313 That really makes it look like you stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
2007-11-28 21:16:26
315.   Eric Stephen
309
I think the Twins would hold out for Kemp. Kemp/LaRoche/Kershaw would trump Melky/Cano/Hughes, if the Yankees would even do that.
2007-11-28 21:17:09
316.   ChicagoDodger
301 Only 3 pitchers in major league baseball history have ever signed 9-figure contracts. Kevin Brown, Mike Hampton, and Barry Zito. And none of them cost players in addition to all that money.

A 6 or 7 year deal for $150-$175 million and he (Santana) were to cease being effective due to injury or other reasons would be painful enough.

If the same happened in addition to giving up Kershaw, LaRoche and Kemp? Well, in my mind it would be devastaing for the Dodgers.

Yes, I understand that some don't want to look at the worst case scenario, when pondering a deal such as that, but I don't see how you easily dismiss that given the "total" price tag.

2007-11-28 21:17:34
317.   68elcamino427
What will the terms of Lowe's next contract be?
Should the Dodgers try to sign him for two more years?
2007-11-28 21:21:12
318.   Bob Timmermann
313
Warmer than Hiroshima? Or warmer than some other city in the U.S.

Hiroshima is plenty warm.

2007-11-28 21:21:12
319.   Bob Timmermann
313
Warmer than Hiroshima? Or warmer than some other city in the U.S.

Hiroshima is plenty warm.

2007-11-28 21:21:55
320.   Bob Timmermann
I blame the cat for that.

He's not around. But he's used to getting blamed for everything.

2007-11-28 21:22:52
321.   Eric Stephen
317
What will the terms of Lowe's next contract be?

Lowe will be 36 in 2009, so my guess is 3 years / $40 million.

Should the Dodgers try to sign him for two more years?

God I hope not. Next offseason, Peavy, Santana, Sheets, and Sabathia could be free agents. While it's unlikely all of them will be available, I'd wait and see before prematurely extending Lowe.

2007-11-28 21:23:48
322.   Lexinthedena
Was that a double crime against humanity joke?
2007-11-28 21:24:41
323.   natepurcell
317

His agent is Boras and with the weake pitching market, Lowe will probably try to cash in again. I don't think he is coming back. Frankly, I wouldn't want him back. Getting 4/4 good to very good years would be amazing and I would just keep my winnings and walk away from the table right there.

Sometimes you just gotta walk away!

2009
Penny
Billingsley
Kuroda
Schmidt
?????

If one of Santana/Sheets/Sabbathia hits the market, Ned's most likely gunna go hard after one of them.

Maybe Kershaw or Mcdonald....or maybe Elbert!

Man, looking back, Elbert going down is a bit devastating right now. He was basically on track to be 1B to Kershaw's 1A as far as left handed pitching prospects go.

That would have given us an extra chip in the trade talks this winter.

Stupid 2004 draft class.

2007-11-28 21:24:50
324.   underdog
319 I think he meant he wants to play some place warm, like Hiroshima, and Seattle is not as warm as LA.

--

For those of you scoring at home, UCSB prevailed vs. Washington in men's soccer playoff game tonight, 1-0, and will travel to Ohio State to play the Buckeyes this weekend.
#1 seed Boston College was upset by UMass today.

2007-11-28 21:28:40
325.   68elcamino427
321 Why not extend Lowe, at those numbers, knowing that he may be working out of the bullpen in the future? You can still go after all of those other people.
What about that?
Have Lowe's stat's been that bad?
2007-11-28 21:30:50
326.   trainwreck
324
I obviously do not follow NCAA futbol that closely, but the rankings seemed odd.

But hey, we won it all as an unranked team last year.

2007-11-28 21:32:44
327.   68elcamino427
323
Bora$.
OK, Lowe's outta here.
Retract 325.
2007-11-28 21:32:52
328.   Eric Stephen
325
If I know Lowe may be working out of the bullpen at some point during his extension period, that would make me value him less, not more.
2007-11-28 21:33:30
329.   Andrew Shimmin
322- "Hiroshima has mild winters with very little snowfall, hot and humid summers (up to 43 degrees C in August, 2007), and generally abundant rainfall."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshima

2007-11-28 21:33:34
330.   natepurcell
325

Boras in his glossy notebook is going to show GMs about Lowe's durability in his career and how he is such a great bet to pitch effectively until he is 42 and he deserves a 6yr deal.

In conclusion, He's going to want more years...and probably more annual dollars.

If the choice was to extend Penny or Lowe going forward, I would pick Penny because I feel more comfortable extending a 30 yr old than a 36 year old.

2007-11-28 21:34:58
331.   natepurcell
And I think Penny would be more willing to give the Dodgers a little discount. His current contract is insanely club friendly.
2007-11-28 21:36:00
332.   trainwreck
There is also the added benefit of not having to read all of Lowe's dumb comments.
2007-11-28 21:36:40
333.   Eric Stephen
A tip of the cap to DePo for the relative bargains that Penny & Lowe have been.
2007-11-28 21:36:43
334.   CajunDodger
330
Hear Hear.

I do think that Lowe is the type of pitcher that could be effective well into his forties. Boras will probably get 4 years out of a club like the Mets who will be hungry for an innings eater. Whatever Livan Hernandez gets this year, Lowe will get two times the money.

2007-11-28 21:37:21
335.   dzzrtRatt
The MLBtraderumors guy says the Twins no longer would want an outfielder (i.e. Kemp) for Santana because the Rays deal filled those slots (I'm just repeating).

He sees the Twins/Rays deal as putting LA back in the picture for Santana, who could be gotten, hypothetically, for a third baseman and a pitcher. LaRoche/Billingsley gets it done, he suggests.

I don't want to do that deal. Billingsley is an ace who won't cost a hundred million dollars yet and trading LaRoche widens the hole at third base.

But it isn't an unreasonable deal.

2007-11-28 21:38:53
336.   Lexinthedena
331- What do you mean by "Club Friendly"...It benifits him more, or the Dodgers?
2007-11-28 21:40:10
337.   CajunDodger
333
I have been able to appreciate DePo retroactively. Horrible media presence, but he sure was good at getting value out free agency.

It would be interesting to see where the Dodgers would be if DePo was still here...

2007-11-28 21:40:55
338.   natepurcell
336

The Dodgers.

Any contract with team options benefits the club more.

335

That's not unreasonable at all. But the fanboy in me won't give up Billingsley.

Nope, sorry.

2007-11-28 21:41:36
339.   Lexinthedena
335- I would do LaRoche/ Broxton/ and one of Meloan, McDonald, or Elbert.....

Giving up Bills defeats the purpose....he is far from a prospect....

2007-11-28 21:41:54
340.   trainwreck
Me thinks if the Twins wanted LaRoche/Kershaw/Hu then Ned would do it very quickly.
2007-11-28 21:42:11
341.   Eric Stephen
335
I agree RE: Billingsley. I would give up LaRoche, Kershaw, McDonald, and even Meloan for Santana rather than trade Billingsley.

And I'm not just saying that because I own a #58 road jersey. (I also own a Raiders #18 jersey)

2007-11-28 21:42:28
342.   Andrew Shimmin
Does Ben Howland have some rigidly specific balding going on, or is he just really opposed to sideburns?
2007-11-28 21:45:06
343.   68elcamino427
328
Lowe has alot of experience as a reliever.
Most of his innings as a starter have been with the Dodgers.
We're paying Loaiza $7,000,000.00 on a flyer.
In a couple of years,$10,000,000.00 might look like less than $7 mil. does today.
We also know what we're getting with Lowe (Sinkerball/groundball pitcher).
Boras ends it for me though.
2007-11-28 21:47:17
344.   68elcamino427
332 How many smart pitchers are there?
2007-11-28 21:47:46
345.   trainwreck
342
Howland had long hair and sideburns in his playing days.

Maybe this is his new way of rebelling.

2007-11-28 21:49:31
346.   Eric Stephen
343
I absolutely agree that $10m might look less in a few years than $7m today, but I think (hope?) that there will be more alternatives on which to spend the extra money than we had with Loaiza.

In other words, Loaiza was worth the risk because it was for only 1(+) year, at a rate less than it would cost in a weak free agent market (Silva, Lohse). With Lowe, I hope there are more alternatives than Silva & Lohse.

2007-11-28 21:50:17
347.   natepurcell
344

You don't have to be smart, but you shouldn't be so much of a lound mouth that it becomes a hindrance and distraction to the team.

Lowe just doesn't think before he speaks.

2007-11-28 21:53:13
348.   natepurcell
Watching some Kuroda videos, His fastball is pretty straight. He might have to develop a 2 seamer or cutter (like billz) to mix it up a little bit for big league hitters.

His forkball is dirty, but he doesn't throw it that often. I'm surprise his K-rates are as low as it is, as he has pretty decent stuff.

He looks like an older, poor man's version of Dice-K.

2007-11-28 21:53:51
349.   Eric Stephen
333 ,337 I would be remiss if I didn't also mention DePo also re-signed Odalis, which didn't turn out so well.

I would like to think that Odalis would have fared better if (a) he acted less childish, and (b) his injuries were dealt with in a better manner.

2007-11-28 21:55:13
350.   68elcamino427
We need pithcing depth and we don't have it.
I wish that we were the only team bidding for Johan.
Then we could offer Minor Leauge pitchers and keep Billingsley.
I don't see how trading Billingsly adds more starting depth
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-11-28 21:55:54
351.   natepurcell
I also wouldn't ask him to go more than 160 innings or so next year. Asking him to take the ball 30+ times a year would be a little too much. We saw from Dice-K that there is a transition period going from being utilized in a Japanese 6 man rotation and switching over to MLB's 5 man style.
2007-11-28 21:57:50
352.   68elcamino427
348
Do you think he would be a sub 5 era guy here?
2007-11-28 21:58:29
353.   trainwreck
348
I was telling my friend how his delivery looks just like Matsuzaka's.
2007-11-28 22:00:28
354.   natepurcell
352

Yes, his control should allow him to post a league average era I would think.

His upside is that he is an unknown to major league hitters and maybe his stuff (like Saito) plays up in the states if he starts throwing his secondary pitches more.

2007-11-28 22:01:22
355.   68elcamino427
If Kuroda goes elsewhere, then what do we do?
2007-11-28 22:01:47
356.   natepurcell
Troy Percival was a pitcher I wanted the Dodgers to look at but hes close to signing a deal with the Rays....a multi year deal.

And that for me, is where the interest stops.

2007-11-28 22:02:34
357.   natepurcell
355

Build an altar for the Minotaur in every Dodger household in the world.

2007-11-28 22:07:09
358.   68elcamino427
This is interesting to me.
Saito is earning $1.75 mil.
Saito is going to help recruit Kuroda.
Kuroda will get $10 mil.+++?
2007-11-28 22:09:24
359.   arbfuldodger
340 The only way I could see it working out even a little is if Ned could pull off a Pierre/+ for Crede. If Crede is healthy it would lessen the sting of losing the one guy I have been looking forward to seeing getting his shot in LaRoche.
2007-11-28 22:10:15
360.   natepurcell
358

Adds a good point, I wonder how much of a raise Saito will get? He deserves to be paid around 8 mil but being on rookie status basically, he is at the mercy of his employer.

Probably a 100% raise in base (to 3.5) plus qualifier bonuses?

2007-11-28 22:13:51
361.   Duranimal
I'm not going to be happy if Kemp turns into Mondesi, but if you compare Kemp's first couple of seasons with Mondesi's first season, the 2 players are very similar. And they also came up at about the same age.

Kemp's First 2 Seasons
AB: 446 Hits: 139 Runs: 77 RBIs: 65
HRs: 17 SBs: 16 BA: 312 OBA: 344.

Mondesi's First Season
AB: 434 Hits: 133 Runs: 63 RBIs: 56
HRs: 16 SBs: 11 BA: 306 OBA: 333.

2007-11-28 22:16:31
362.   Jon Weisman
337 - "Horrible media presence."

Two years later, I'm still looking for evidence that this is based on more than Plaschke and Simers' own dysfunction, in contrast to all the patient, thoughtful and lucid interviews I heard him give.

2007-11-28 22:18:26
363.   68elcamino427
360
That's just Saito's situation with the work rules.
There is nothing fair about it, especially when you consider what Loaiza gets.
I know that the Dodgers didn't create Loaiza's contract, but he's here none the less.

Maybe Saito will get a Kuroda signing bonus.

2007-11-28 22:20:29
364.   Bob Timmermann
362
Is Ned Colletti all that more interesting of an interview than Paul DePodesta?
2007-11-28 22:21:14
365.   Eric Stephen
Saito has been even cheaper!

He earned $500k in 2006, and $1.3m in 2007 ($1m + $300k in bonuses for appearing in 60+ games)

2007-11-28 22:22:16
366.   Eric Stephen
364
If anything, Colletti sounds a bit annoyed during press conferences.
2007-11-28 22:23:23
367.   natepurcell
Colletti speaks in more cliches.

And has a mustache.

2007-11-28 22:25:37
368.   Eric Stephen
360
Maybe something like 2 years / $8m plus incentives. It would be a service time record for a pitcher I believe, but Sammy is certainly a special case.

Then again, these things always seem to come down to whichever side (team or player) using the negotiating hammer when in possession of it.

2007-11-28 22:26:25
369.   Eric Stephen
367
I'd like to interview The 'Stache™. I bet there are some great stories in there!
2007-11-28 22:27:11
370.   CajunDodger
360
I see him making about $2.5 mil with escalators that will make the deal worth about $3 mil. That would still be a 200% raise.

358
Kuroda is considered to be one of the better pitchers in the league on a mediocre team. Saito was thought to be a washed up bullpen guy that might be able to hold down the sixth or seventh inning at best.

2007-11-28 22:33:17
371.   CajunDodger
362
It is based on my own perceptions of him in front of a camera, not on the content of his remarks. I always thought he looked uncomfortable and shy at his press conferences and had very little charisma.

When I read his remarks in the paper/online, he reminded me of Theo Epstein. Thoughtful, practical, and logical. This is only based on my impression of him.

2007-11-28 22:34:00
372.   68elcamino427
370 The potential for a continuation of this juxtaposition makes me uneasy.
(I want that to be a joke)
2007-11-28 22:35:34
373.   68elcamino427
Where is De Podesta now?
2007-11-28 22:37:07
374.   natepurcell
373

Padres assistant.

2007-11-28 22:38:23
375.   still bevens
373 Special assistant in SD. You can see his fingerprints on the team, esp. last year when he probably had a hand in bringing old Dodger folk like Myrow, Cruz Jr. and Oscar Robles.
2007-11-28 22:39:38
376.   CajunDodger
373
Special Assistant to Kevin Towers in San Diego.
2007-11-28 22:39:56
377.   CajunDodger
...really late
2007-11-28 22:55:44
378.   Eric L
371 Maybe it was Vinny, but when DePo did interviews following the LoDuca trade and the disaster that was the '05 season he was very eloquent and explained his position(s) very well. He was certainly came off more media savvy than Frank McCourt. His first interviews after the sale was finalized were terrible. To his credit, he is far more savvy now.
2007-11-28 22:58:47
379.   bhsportsguy
ToyCannon and I took in the UCLA game, we debated if Kevin Love is a top 5 pick, if Santana is worthy of being dealt for our top prospects, why Jeff Kent is still selling motorcycles instead of calling Ned and who will sign Andruw Jones.

He was impressed by Russell Westbrook.

2007-11-28 23:05:20
380.   Jon Weisman
NPUT

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