I don't even care if anyone took steroids. As much as I don't like Barry Bonds, it is obvious that steroids alone didn't make him the best hitter ever.

Well said Jon.

You, sir, are a wise man.

Amen. Bud Selig and Co. chose to ignore steroids throughout the '90s because it was good for business. I say let 'em live with the blot.

Agreed!

Makes AROD look very good.

I'm sure the league would appreciate such apologetics. They'd like nothing more than to be let off the hook for (presumably) overlooking a problem because they were making money.

1 Do you care if high school baseball players take steroids?

I have a major problem with baseball encouraging the usage of steroids (by not policing against it), reaping the benefits of it, now playing the role of the righteous as all of this comes out.

Barry Bonds is the perfect villain/scapegoat in this. If this report is able to show that Bonds wasn't the only famous, successful player that used (Pujols? Deadspin is vindicated!) perhaps Bonds won't be singled out so severely. And it sounds like the conclusion of the report will be to (rightfully) place the majority of the blame on Baseball and the Player's Association. So with the exception of the millions of dollars this wasted, and the unusual amount of attention it received from Congress, I'd have to say this is all a good, cleansing process. Not it's time to move on. No suspensions, no asterisks, no revisionist history. Play ball.

Well said Jon. What I'm finding is that the people who are most appalled by the steroid saga are casual fans or non-fans. How can you be turned off to baseball because of workout supplements but gladly watch ostentatious thugs play football/basketball? This is just tabloid water cooler stuff.

Jon, you are always the voice reason and the rational. You probably don't even own a mobbin' torch!

8 I can't think of anything good coming out of HS kids taking steroids to improve athletic performance.

7 - " such apologetics"

What do you mean?

7
Actually, I take back the word "apologetics". That isn't quite right. I mean instead "encouraging everyone to forget the past and move on".

Funny. I posted 14 before reading 13 , partly because I suspected 13 would be forthcoming.

12
Less traffic on the roads.

8 You just crushed the iceberg.

14
Is Jon really encouraging everyone to "forget the past"? Move on, yes. Forget, no.

(6)
Agree , I'm glad that Arod and Griffey aren't named. They were guys who just could mash when many of their contemporaries were cheating.
Pujols is kind of a Shoeless Joe Jackson moment. Say it ain't so.
I'm glad Andruw didn't get named, but I remember him playing for Greenville Braves years ago and jacking one completely out of the park in Huntsville,Alabama.
I wonder if this could give teams grounds to void contracts,like Nomah for example. Maybe
we could plant some clear in Pierre's locker.

18 - I'm doing the opposite of encouraging people to forget the past - but I wasn't clear that that was what D4P was suggesting.

3 hehe, you see what he did there

8 - I certainly don't give steroid use by high schoolers my seal of approval, but I also think it has very little to do with Barry Bonds. I have met a fair amount of people in my life (more than 5 less than 10) who have taken steroids recreationally; not to get better at sports, but just to look better, have more sex, feel good about themselves or whatever. I don't know how many high school students out there are thinking: "My heroes Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Roger Clemons do it, I should too!" The juice is out there and high school athletes make decisions for themselves, so do professional baseball players. Steroids aren't good for you, and when abused can cause anti-social behavior, but that is a pretty perfect description of alcohol too. It just isn't a big deal for me.

1 Steroids definitely made Bonds the holder of the two most sacred homerun records in the game. It's a fraud and a tragedy, and it sucks.

The Big Hurt is looking good today.

What is a big deal for me is the relentless snowfall outside. Sigh, winter is here in a big way.

It's good to find out that Beltre and Gonzo are not on the list. I was expecting to see Piazza!

26
LuGo deserved at least an honorable mention.

Is ESPN going to unveil the list in bracket format?

Addendum to 23 . Steroids also made Eric Gagne the holder of the 84 consecutive saves streak, and also the provider of the most glorious moments for the Dodgers during some very bleak years for the team.

It's not quite a say-it-ain't-so moment, because I think deep down we all knew what the reason was for that 10 mph jump in his fastball right before he was moved to the bullpen. Albert Pujols, on the other hand...

The only "say it ain't so" is Pujols for me.

Though, nice to see Big Hurt, Piazza, Beltre, Griffey, A-Rod, Andruw, and others aren't on it.

From what I've gathered, this report doesn't merit being taken as the final word as to whether someone did or didn't do stuff.

And LuGo, too. Even if he was kind of a jerk last season.

I'm interested to see how accusees will respond. Will they proactively "issue statements" vehemently denying the accusations? If so, will they put teeth behind their denials by filing lawsuits? Will they refuse interviews or any other public statements for the next 10 years? Will they accept interviews, and issue their denials then? Or, will some of them actually come clean and apologize?

Fun times ahead.

31 Absolutely true, at least as far as exonerating players goes. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

31 Did and didn't? I suppose there's potential for error, but I would imagine the names in the report ought to be pretty accurate, given the reputations at stake. I could understand the danger of reporting false positives, so I imagine there are more names out there.

Then again, "ought to" and "are" are two different things.

31
Nor could it have, in the absence of direct admissions from players. Everything else is speculative. Even positive drug tests are often explained away, whether legitimately or not.

Im just bummed Lenny Dykstra's name hasnt popped up. I love talking about Lenny Dykstra.

35 - The Howard Bryant story about the interview and fact-gathering process was I think rather damning on the process.

What does this do to Roger Clemens Hall-of-Fame candidacy? Bit early to tell, but all the talking heads that are keeping Bonds out of the HOF already, should do the same to Clemens.

39 - Rephrase: What would this do to...?

28 Barry Bonds is the No. 1 seed in the BALCO region.

Juan Gonzalez is listed twice here: http://tinyurl.com/2hg9kd

Must've REALLY goofed up.

39 If McGwire and Bonds get that treatment, so should Clemens.

more suprising are the names not on the list

I'm confused. Is the official list out yet? How do we know for sure whose names are/aren't on the list?

Am I the only one that thinks the "leaked" list from this morning is completely made up??

It consists almost entirely of the usual suspects, guys that have already been busted, guys that have had a history of injuries and several oddballs who have some sort of name value (Rocker, Garces, Kile). And many of those names are misspelled.

It could prove to be totally true in about a half hour, but it seems like a list any one of us could have created in two minutes.

What is the speculation on punishment for those named? Will Nomar start the season with a suspension, effectively handing the 3B job to LaRoche?

Jon, I agree that we should not bother with the asteriks. But we should question the hall of fame credentials of the guys on this list. Sheffield, Pudge, Pujols, and Bagwell are no longer locks in my eyes. Clemens and Bonds should be voted in no matter what in my opinion. It will be very interesting to see how the voting unfolds for these guys over the next 10 to 15 years. It really angers me when they lie about it. On the other hand, I tend to quickly forgive any of the players like Giambi who come clean by telling the truth.

42 Juan Gonzalez's name also listed twice here:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/mvp_cya.shtml

No real point. Just making a joke on a sad day. Nothing to see here. Move on.

I'm just glad D4P made people look up the word "apologetics" and find out its real definition.

46 OK, you got me. I created the list off the top of my head and circulated it around the internets. Happy?

47
Depending on the level of evidence this report represents, I doubt there will be any substantial punishments from MLB. If there are, they will be heavily challenged by the MLBPA.

That list is said to be incorrect. So we should probably just wait to see who's on the actual list when it's released before we start sighing with relief, glee and what have you.

50
Have you ever began one of your baseball history talks at the library with "I'm not here to talk about the past"...?

For those tuning out the Mitchell report, there's a Colletti radio interview with Joe McDonnell posted on 570klac.com from last night... contains a nice 3 minute diatribe defending OBP Juan.

One of things that has always bugged me is how baseball gets hammered by the mainstream media and the NFL gets a pass on PEDs. Shawn Marion (sic? don't really like the NFL) gets caught and it's a one day story. You will never convince me that it's not as rampant or worse in the NFL.

54
I only talk about apologetics if I'm there to discuss C.S. Lewis.

57
Does your library carry "The Screwtape Letters"?

38 I just read that (or, still reading it between doing work). I must have missed it the first time. So much for certainty.

55 - Seems like Colletti now knows his audience.

56
Shawne Merriman is in the NFL, and was suspended for 4 games last season.

Shawn Marion is in the NBA, and is the Matrix.

Otsuka (23.9 VORP, 5.3 WARP) and Calero (17.3 VORP, 2.2 WARP) were both non-tendered yesterday.

One or both of those guys could help our bullpen this season and would be a better alternative to trading someone like Ethier for bullpen help.

55- Furry takes a hit. "He's a pretty good shortstop. Defensively."

56 I agree entirely. An alien from Mars could read the newspapers and say, "Boy, steroid abuse is sure a problem in baseball, track, and bicycling. At least the 300-pound behemoths in the NFL are all completely legit."

58
13 different editions in English, plus one in Russian and one in Spanish.

NL West non-tenders:

Dodgers: Hendrickson
Padres: Morgan Ensberg, Jason Lane, Jack Cassel, Ryan Ketchner
Rockies: Darren Clarke, Sean Barker
Giants: Scott Munter
D-Backs: none

Re: Pierre

"I have more information than anybody else has. I know that."

64 Drug abuse seems worse in the NFL. Maybe it's not as big a deal to hit people harder and injure them more than it is to hit baseballs harder and break records.

62 Is Otsuka injured or something? I seem to recall him being pretty good.

Even if he is injured, it seems he'd be worth gambling on with a minor-league deal -- if he'd accept such a deal.

67
Re: All players

"I systematically ignore a large portion of information that a lot of other people look at. I know that."

It seems that with the contracts guys have received in the last few weeks, Guillen, Gagne etc, that baseball was/is not really worried about this report. How good is game over feeling about his timing?

70 I disagree with that statement -- at least, I disagree with your choice of the word "systematically." I believe that there is no system by which he ignores information. I believe that it is random. If there were a system, the Dodgers would either be a lot better or a lot worse than they are.

69
I would imagine Otsuka will have enough suitors to make a minor league deal unlikely. There was talk this week of the Padres possibly bringing him back, thus punctuating their great trade with Texas (getting Young & Gonzalez) by also getting back the best player they gave up in the deal.

72
The "system" I envision is "new stats" that "Baseball People" typically deride.

61 Shawne Merriman is in the NFL, and was suspended for 4 games last season.

And right on the heels of that, Merriman got to star in a cool commercial for Nike all season long.

I love the NFL, but the doouble standard between pro football and MLB or the NBA is really sickening.

Otsuka would be an excellent gamble provided his health checks out but why would the Rangers have non-tendered him if he is healthy?

73 I guess that's not surprising. I just assumed that there had to be some black mark on him -- why would Texas non-tender him? Just because they're Texas?

67 70 The part that rubbed me the wrong way was that his "value will be accentuated with power hitters around him in the lineup- especially in LF." Dis make no sense.

76 They didn't feel his salary was worth it when they have no chance anyway is the only reason I could see.

Just make PED's legal.
Across the board.

It could have positive effects:
One, the games would be better as the players would be in better physical shape.

Two, it might discourage youngsters from putting their entire dreams into such difficult goals as being a pro athlete. If the downsides of being a pro athlete are that you have to take drugs (that could possibly hurt your body) in the future in order to make it, maybe more kids would give up on that and pursue something more meaningful to society.

I dont see the harm in making PED's legal. I also dont think there's enough evidence to state that PED usage always leads to poor health. There's a ton of things that lead to poor health, and since its America and we have rights to pursue our own happiness, we are allowed to do those things as long as they dont hurt others.

What's the genesis of the theory that mixing speed and power is a winning strategy? He seems quite thrilled with the prospect of having five players hit 20 home runs, and two players steal (between them) 90 bases. Goes so far as to say that he doesn't think many (implicitly, any) other team have done that before. So, what makes it a good idea? I understand trying to recreate good teams; I don't think much of it, but I get the point. But I don't get the theory of, "We'll make this team like no other in history! It'll be terrific, because, um, everybody who ever played this game was wrong, I guess. . ."

80
There does not seem to be a consistent and identifiable logic behind why some drugs/foods/etc. are legal and some aren't.

80- Admit it: you just want to find out if the whole lactation thing is real.

40 It's already started in the NY Times: "Clemens, who retired last season, has been considered one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Information and evidence from McNamee could raise questions about whether Clemens should be elected to the Hall of Fame."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/sports/baseball/14mitchell.html?em&ex=1197694800&en=6adaa7fdd3f9dc4b&ei=5087%0A

62
Either Calero or Otsuka would be nice additions to the bullpen. I don't know what the Dodgers' level of interest is, but for reference sake, both players have two years of arbitration eligibility left. Calero made $1.6m last year and Otsuka made $3m.

I'd prefer Otsuka over Calero, in large part due to Calero's fly ball tendencies which wouldn't play well in Dodger Stadium.

The names are coming up in about 15-20 minutes...
if i see Griffey's name I will be crushed...I was givin all of his rookie cards when i was a kid, some signed.
He has always been to me, the Anti-Bonds.
His All-Out play caused him so many injuries, diving into walls, trying to get out of rundowns.

If Grif would have stayed healthy HE would own the record, not Bonds. Bonds became a defensive blob late in his career, Grif has suffered because he never stopped playin with all his heart.

I don't care what stats yall show me, Griffey will aways be the best all-time player to me.

79 That still doesn't make sense. If you're the Rangers and you don't really want to pay him, give him a contract and then trade him.

Instead, he's a free agent (if I understand correctly) and the Rangers get nothing.

What's the genesis of the theory that mixing speed and power is a winning strategy?

Systematically ignoring a large portion of information that a lot of other people look at.

81 It falls under that Kruk/Phillips postseason key of "scoring in so many different ways." 8 guys with .350+ OBP's is implied to be a flawed strategy.

80

As long as you extend your support to legalizing marijuana the NBA Players Association is in full support of your idea

Did Tsao hook up with another organization yet?

I wouldnt extend the idea to marijuana, since I'm fairly certain it wouldnt qualify as a "performance enhancing drug".

Drug--yea sure it is.
"Peformance Enhancing"--no.

I'd only allow PED's to be legal.
Not drugs that hurt performance.

81 Seeing as power sort of cancels out speed, I would think it's actually kind of a dumb idea.

According to the guys on mlb's baseball channel just now, something like 39 of the 76 names on the leaked list were incorrect.

80 I think making it basically mandatory to take drugs that have known harmful effects to become a professional athlete is a very, very bad idea.

93 - It definitely sounds like an idea that was tailored to circumstances, rather than an idea that was thought through.

How does Colletti decide that speed contributes to victory anyway, other than it feeling like it should?

5 bux says mlb.com crashes today....

By the way, WNBC pulled the list they reported.

It looks like Otsuka, who didn't pitch after July 1, wants some level of security (i.e. multi-year contract) and the Rangers didn't feel comfortable paying for an injury-risk at 36 years old.

http://tinyurl.com/2rhb5f

There is also info in there about the Rangers not being able to have Otsuka until after May 1 since they non-tendered him, but I'm not sure if that is true anymore.

was it a coincidence there was a flurry of FA signings the last 2 days? with the report coming up and what not?

89 - Why don't GMs use Boston as an example? Their lineup last year featured 7 people with OBPs over .367, including 4 people over .380. The lowest BB total for any regular was 48. The lowest ISOpatience was .054 by Lowell, who hit .320. Lugo and Crisp had lower OBPs but Lugo drastically underperformed (a phenomenon we are all familiar with) and Crisp isn't going to start next year (neither is Lugo if he can't get it together). The World Champions, the model franchise ect, are building around plate discipline, why doesn't ESPN or Ned mention this?

Chris Donnels, say it ain't so!

I pulled the list off MLB.com very quickly. The report is 409 pages.

It has lots of photocopies in it.