Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Log in | Register | Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Hot from the Toaster
BlogAds
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2008
09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Support Dodger Thoughts

Dodger Thoughts T-Shirts
On sale through February 16, 2008
DT Blue on WhiteDT-WhiteonBLue
Click here to order.

* * *

Cover 11.25 jpeg

The Best of Dodger Thoughts
A 325-page book featuring the top selections from this website from 2002-2005.

Click here for more information.

On Sale Now at Lulu.com

Support independent publishing: buy this book on Lulu.

* * *

Or, just make a donation to support the site. Many thanks.

"Dodger Thoughts, like TiVo, is one of those things you can completely do without until you start using it."

- Fanerman

Dodger Sites
Dodger Resources
Non-Partisan Baseball Sites
Partisan Baseball Sites
Baseball, Among Other Things
Invaluable Resources
Less Dodgers, More L.A.
All in the Family
Other Writing by Jon on the Web

SI.com
NL West Preview
Evaluating Defense
Colletti and Depo
World Baseball Classic
Minor League Broadcasters
Slow Starts
Eric Gagne
Groundball Pitchers
Dodger Prospects
Albert Pujols
Humbled Angels
You Be the Manager
Eric Gagne II
Unreliable Relievers
Revived Angels
It's Okay To Sell
Dodger Turnaround
Andre Ethier
Padres-Dodgers Showdown
NL Final Weekend
Mets-Dodgers NLDS
Postseason ratings
NL Wish Lists
Manny vs. J.D.
McGwire Controversy
Dodger Offense
Trainers Matter

Variety
Will Arnett
John C. McGinley
Laura Dern
Imelda Staunton
SAG Awards
Ellen Pompeo
Grey's Anatomy
2004-05 Rookie Dramas
Anthony Hopkins
NATPE
Scrubs
Award Shows
Topher Grace
Ashton Kutcher
Writing on Improv Shows
Rainn Wilson
T.R. Knight
Guest Actors
Animation Guests
Joey Carson and Tennis
Donald Trump and Golf
2006 Emmys Nominees*
*Comedy Series
*Comedy Director
*Comedy Writer
*Comedy Actor
*Comedy Supporting Actor
Blue's Clues
Lizzy Caplan
Ann Donahue
CMT: Giants
CMA Awards
Little Miss Sunshine
Actor-Directors
Freshman Series
Clint Eastwood
Showrunners vs. Censors
Little Children
Breaking and Entering
Tartikoff Legacy Awards
Jackie Earle Haley
Knights of Prosperity
Office Online
2007 Screenplay Noms
Friday Night Lights
Robert Benton
ABC Fridays
Rookie Actors
Global Casting
2007 Pilot Casting
Sublime Slime

Also ...
A Season in Savannah (Stanford Magazine)
Five Questions: Los Angeles Dodgers (2005) (Hardball Times)
Rick Monday (Baseball Analysts)
Baseball's Odd Couple (Baseball Prospectus)
Five Questions: Los Angeles Dodgers (2006) (Hardball Times)
Five Questions: Los Angeles Dodgers (2007) (Hardball Times)

More Shameless Self-Promotion
2008 Season

Dodger home record: 39-30 (.565)
When Jon attended: 5-3 (.625)
When Jon didn't: 34-27 (.557)

1991-2007

Dodgers at home: 745-600 (.554)
Jon attended: 293-233 (.557)*
Jon didn't: 457-374 (.550)
* includes road games attended

2008 Payroll Worksheet

Current Roster with Estimated 2008 Salaries
(updated March 28)

Most figures are estimates (some are wild estimates) but will be updated as information comes in. Corrections welcome.

More contract details here.

Starting Pitchers (5)
$12,300,000 Hiroki Kuroda
$10,000,000 Derek Lowe
$9,500,000 Brad Penny
$7,000,000 Esteban Loaiza
*$500,000 Chad Billingsley
Total: $39,300,000

Bullpen (6)
$2,000,000 Takashi Saito
$1,925,000 Joe Beimel
$1,125,000 Scott Proctor
*$500,000 Jonathan Broxton
$500,000 Chan Ho Park
*$400,000 Hong-Chih Kuo
Total: $6,450,000

Starting Lineup (8)
$14,100,000 Andruw Jones
$13,000,000 Rafael Furcal
$9,000,000 Jeff Kent
$8,500,000 Nomar Garciaparra
$8,000,000 Juan Pierre
$500,000 Russell Martin
*$400,000 James Loney
*$400,000 Matt Kemp
Total: $53,900,000

Bench (6)
$875,000 Gary Bennett
$600,000 Mark Sweeney
$424,500 Andre Ethier
$391,000 Delwyn Young
$390,000 Chin-Lung Hu
$390,000 Blake DeWitt
Total: $3,071,000

Disabled List
$12,000,000 Jason Schmidt
*$400,000 Tony Abreu
*$390,000 Andy LaRoche
Total: $12,790,000

Also Paying ...
$1,000,000 Brett Tomko
$750,000 Odalis Perez
$540,000 Yhency Brazoban
$500,000 Randy Wolf
$487,500 Jason Repko
$135,225 Rudy Seanez
$100,000 Mike Lieberthal
$50,000 Ramon Martinez
Total: $3,562,725

Working total: *$113,268,725

*Rough salary estimate

The 2008 Dodgers

ESPN BR BP Cube Alvarez
ESPN BR BP Cube Abreu
ESPN BR BP Cube Beimel
ESPN BR BP Cube Bennett
ESPN BR BP Cube Billingsley
ESPN BR BP Cube Brazoban
ESPN BR BP Cube Broxton
ESPN BR BP Cube DeWitt
ESPN BR BP Cube Ethier
ESPN BR BP Cube Furcal
ESPN BR BP Cube Garciaparra
ESPN BR BP Cube Hu
ESPN BR BP Cube Jones
ESPN BR BP Cube Kemp
ESPN BR BP Cube Kent
ESPN BR BP Cube Kuo
ESPN BR BP Cube Kuroda
ESPN BR BP Cube LaRoche
ESPN BR BP Cube Loaiza
ESPN BR BP Cube Loney
ESPN BR BP Cube Lowe
ESPN BR BP Cube Martin
ESPN BR BP Cube May
ESPN BR BP Cube McDonald
ESPN BR BP Cube Meloan
ESPN BR BP Cube Miller
ESPN BR BP Cube Orenduff
ESPN BR BP Cube Park
ESPN BR BP Cube Paul
ESPN BR BP Cube Penny
ESPN BR BP Cube Pierre
ESPN BR BP Cube Proctor
ESPN BR BP Cube Repko
ESPN BR BP Cube Saito
ESPN BR BP Cube Schmidt
ESPN BR BP Cube Stults
ESPN BR BP Cube Sweeney
ESPN BR BP Cube Troncoso
ESPN BR BP Cube Wade
ESPN BR BP Cube Young

Selected Recent Ex-Dodgers

ESPN BR BP Cube Alomar
ESPN BR BP Cube Alvarez
ESPN BR BP Cube Aybar
ESPN BR BP Cube Baez
ESPN BR BP Cube Bako
ESPN BR BP Cube Beltre
ESPN BR BP Cube Bradley
ESPN BR BP Cube Cabrera
ESPN BR BP Cube Carrara
ESPN BR BP Cube Carter
ESPN BR BP Cube Chen
ESPN BR BP Cube Choi
ESPN BR BP Cube Cora
ESPN BR BP Cube Crosby
ESPN BR BP Cube Cruz
ESPN BR BP Cube Dessens
ESPN BR BP Cube Dreifort
ESPN BR BP Cube Drew
ESPN BR BP Cube Encarnacion
ESPN BR BP Cube Edwards
ESPN BR BP Cube Erickson
ESPN BR BP Cube Falkenborg
ESPN BR BP Cube Finley
ESPN BR BP Cube Flores
ESPN BR BP Cube Gagne
ESPN BR BP Cube Grabowski
ESPN BR BP Cube Green
ESPN BR BP Cube Guzman
ESPN BR BP Cube Hanrahan
ESPN BR BP Cube Hernandez
ESPN BR BP Cube Hundley
ESPN BR BP Cube Ishii
ESPN BR BP Cube Izturis
ESPN BR BP Cube Jackson
ESPN BR BP Cube Karros
ESPN BR BP Cube Ketchner
ESPN BR BP Cube Ledee
ESPN BR BP Cube Lima
ESPN BR BP Cube Lo Duca
ESPN BR BP Cube Lofton
ESPN BR BP Cube T. Martin
ESPN BR BP Cube Mayne
ESPN BR BP Cube G. Mota
ESPN BR BP Cube Mueller
ESPN BR BP Cube Myrow
ESPN BR BP Cube Nakamura
ESPN BR BP Cube Navarro
ESPN BR BP Cube Nomo
ESPN BR BP Cube Osoria
ESPN BR BP Cube A. Perez
ESPN BR BP Cube O. Perez
ESPN BR BP Cube Phillips
ESPN BR BP Cube Proctor
ESPN BR BP Cube Roberts
ESPN BR BP Cube Robles
ESPN BR BP Cube Romano
ESPN BR BP Cube C. Ross
ESPN BR BP Cube D. Ross
ESPN BR BP Cube Sanchez
ESPN BR BP Cube Schmoll
ESPN BR BP Cube Sele
ESPN BR BP Cube Seo
ESPN BR BP Cube Shuey
ESPN BR BP Cube Stanley
ESPN BR BP Cube S. Stewart
ESPN BR BP Cube Thompson
ESPN BR BP Cube Thurston
ESPN BR BP Cube Valentin
ESPN BR BP Cube Venafro
ESPN BR BP Cube Ventura
ESPN BR BP Cube Weaver
ESPN BR BP Cube Werth
ESPN BR BP Cube Wilson
ESPN BR BP Cube Wunsch

Dodger Thoughts Land
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Syndication

rss2.0

Add to My Yahoo!
What Is a Fourth Starter?
2007-12-18 08:55
by Jon Weisman

In the wake of the Dodgers' Hiroki Kuroda signing, Dodger Thoughts commenter Eric Stephen researched the realties of No. 4 starters in the National League. Enjoy his work!

With the recent signing of Hiroki Kuroda by the Dodgers, many reports peg Kuroda as the team's "fourth starter." What should we expect of Kuroda in 2008? How well will Kuroda have to perform to be considered a success? To define his success, we need to figure out just what a fourth starter is, and how will Kuroda compare with his 2007 Dodger counterparts.

The Dodgers' "Big Three" of Brad Penny, Chad Billingsley, and Derek Lowe are all above average pitchers. In 2007, they combined for 85 starts and put up stellar numbers, a combined 3.44 ERA and 133 ERA+. No team in the NL got better pitching out of its top three starters (ranked by IP) in 2007:

TeamGWin %IPERAERA+
LA850.612518 1/33.44133
SD980.592594 1/33.24125
Atl960.594591 1/33.50122
Chi1000.540618 1/33.90119
Ari1000.580633 1/34.01117
SF910.429551 2/34.05110
Col880.534545 4.43108
Cin980.490620 4.35107
NY950.579568 1/33.99107
Hou940.511581 4.23104
Pit930.462587 1/34.18104
Mil890.528531 1/34.6197
Phi910.571544 1/34.8495
StL880.466516 4.8092
Was720.472389 4.8487
Fla950.474531 5.2482

The Dodgers had the highest ERA+ at 133 (Note: When I plugged in Dan Haren's 2007 into Arizona's numbers to replace Livan Hernandez, their ERA+ is also 133) and highest winning percentage at .612. However, only the Washington Nationals got fewer starts out of their "Big Three," and only the Nationals and St. Louis Cardinals got fewer innings than the Dodgers.

Outside of the "Big Three," I lumped every other starter into a category called "The Rest." Here is how "The Rest" fared in the NL in 2007:

TeamGWin %IPERAERA+
Ari620.516324 2/34.66101
Col750.573398 1/34.79100
Mil730.493401 2/34.48100
Chi620.500337 1/34.7299
SF710.451417 4.4999
Phi710.521394 5.0092
NY670.493372 1/35.0385
StL740.500373 5.3882
Hou680.368376 2/35.4581
LA770.390398 2/35.7180
Cin640.375337 5.8080
Was900.433467 5.3479
SD650.477340 2/35.6372
Fla670.388326 6.1370
Atl660.409325 2/36.1669
Pit690.362345 2/36.4368

While other teams may have gotten worse pitching from the dregs of their rotation than the Dodgers, only the Nationals had more starts from their back end.

The Dodgers' pitching figures to improve in 2008 simply by having Chad Billingsley in the rotation for a full season (he only made 20 starts in 2007). Having Kuroda will also help, albeit it a hefty cost ($12.3 million for 2008 alone), as he simply has to replace the dastardly duo of Mark Hendrickson & Brett Tomko, who combined for a putrid 5.84 ERA in 30 starts and 155.2 innings in 2007.

Looking further into the numbers, it underscores how important depth is when evaluating potential starting rotations. There is simply no such thing as a five-man rotation, at least in literal terms. It really does take a village to build a pitching staff. In 2007, the average NL team used:

  • 10.7 starters
  • 8 pitchers with 5+ starts
  • 6 pitchers with 10+ starts
  • 3.8 pitchers with 20+ starts
  • 2.3 pitchers with 30+ starts

    The Cubs got the most starts out of their top five starters, with 152. Here are the numbers for each NL team:

    Chi - 152 (93.8%)
    SD - 143 (87.7%)
    Ari - 139 (85.8%)
    Mil - 137 (84.6%)
    SF - 136 (84.0%)
    NY - 133 (82.1%)
    Atl - 133 (82.1%)
    Hou - 131 (80.9%)
    Fla - 131 (80.9%)
    Cin - 129 (79.6%)
    Pit - 127 (78.4%)
    StL - 125 (77.2%)
    Phi - 123 (75.9%)
    Col - 122 (74.8%)
    LA - 118 (72.8%)
    Was - 103 (63.6%)

    Those pesky Nationals again kept the Dodgers out of the bottom spot.

    Using Baseball-Reference.com, I ranked each team's starters by innings pitched to define each rotation slot, and averaged them. I used the league 4.43 ERA to calculate the cumulative ERA+, so they may be a bit off. Here are the numbers for the 2007 NL:

    Rotation SlotGSIPIP/startH/9HR/9BB/9K/9ERAERA+
    #1 Starters33.3209.76.319.000.833.006.623.84115
    #2 Starters30.9187.46.069.331.132.746.284.32103
    #3 Starters27.9160.45.759.381.163.386.584.5398
    #4 Starters21.7124.45.739.131.163.126.204.5996
    #5 Starters16.488.95.4310.171.263.355.845.0787
    #6 Starters11.360.45.3710.181.153.326.225.2684

    What's interesting is that even if you expand the average NL rotation to include six starters, that still leaves roughly 21 starts unaccounted for!

    What does this mean for the Dodgers? None of the eight hurlers who started a game for the Dodgers outside their "Big Three" had an ERA+ of 100 or better. Only the Pittsburgh Pirates and Florida Marlins can share this dubious claim. Think about that for a moment. Nearly every team in the NL got league average innings out of at least one starter outside their top three. Not the Dodgers. David Wells and his 5.12 ERA in seven Dodger starts made him the fifth best starter on the team!

    What does this mean for Kuroda? If they can get more than 124 IP with an ERA+ of 96 or more out of their newest Japanese import, they will be above average in the National League, and I'd call his season a success.

    (Editor's note: And if the Dodgers' top three retain their advantage over the rest of the NL, so much the better.)

    * * *

    In other Dodger Thoughts commenter news, Nate Purcell went through Kuroda's 2007 boxscores and determined (with some small amount of self-confessed margin for error) that Kuroda's groundout/flyout ratio was 2.25 to 1.

  • Advertisement
    Comments (260)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2007-12-18 09:50:04
    1.   Jacob L
    That's nice work, Eric. The conclusion that I draw is that its not a horrible idea to ridiculously overpay for average production from the back end of the rotation.
    2007-12-18 09:51:54
    2.   Bob Timmermann
    LAT'ed while looking for the difference between baseballs in North America and Asia:

    In North America, cowhide is used to cover baseballs. In Asia, it's horsehide. There is a difference in its tackiness.

    http://tinyurl.com/2aaul4

    2007-12-18 09:52:43
    3.   bhsportsguy
    Of course, the Dodgers still need to score more runs.

    (Just saying)

    2007-12-18 09:53:24
    4.   MC Safety
    Coletti wasnt a good GM last year is what I get from it.
    2007-12-18 09:54:02
    5.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
    Awesome perspective! I really liked that analysis. Thanks for that.
    2007-12-18 09:56:08
    6.   ToyCannon
    Great stuff. I can remember arguing that we were only asking for Tomko to be a 5th starter for the last two years but that didn't turn out very well. I knew the back end of our rotation was bad but I didn't know it was that bad.
    Kershaw can't get here fast enough for me. I hope he dominates enough that he's pitching in some capacity for us in August. I think even if he does a Joba like job out of the bullpen he could have an impact.
    2007-12-18 09:56:39
    7.   D4P
    The conclusion that I draw is that David Wells is a(n) FTOG.
    2007-12-18 09:57:18
    8.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
    Of course, the thing I like most about the Kuroda signing is the idea that it probably quells the rumors of Kemp plus others for Bedard, etc. If he makes a league-average contribution for the rotation, so much the better.

    Upside, fantasy-like: if the "big three" pitch slightly above their projections, Schmidt does something miraculous, and Kuroda is league-average, we could be looking at 90+ wins regardless of how many games JP and Garciapara take to play themselves out of their jobs...

    2007-12-18 09:58:07
    9.   bhsportsguy
    1 Great work Eric.
    2007-12-18 10:01:58
    10.   kinbote
    Great read. It's important to remember the interrelationship of all things pitching. Having starters who can pitch deep [and effectively] into the later innings affects both the rest of the rotation and the bullpen. If Kuroda can perform at the level outlined above, his impact will be felt beyond his personal statistics.
    2007-12-18 10:03:35
    11.   Reiichi
    That back end of the rotation looks like it killed us more than our PVL in the fielding positions.

    Assuming the big 3 stay healthy and and continue to produce at last years levels, the back end of our rotation will likely determine if we make the post season. I wouldn't call 96 ERA+ a success for the money being paid, but it would be a significant upgrade over what we had pitching #4 last year.

    2007-12-18 10:04:55
    12.   CanuckDodger
    6 -- I think it would be short-sighted having Kershaw in the majors in his age 20 season, like Edwin Jackson, and I doubt he adds all the polish he needs in just a few more months in the minors in 2008. I think McDonald is the starter prospect we have to look forward to making the jump first. Just compare their numbers in Double A. The different walk rates alone tell a story (McDonald's command is much more more advanced).
    2007-12-18 10:05:26
    13.   kngoworld
    Outstanding work Eric, really very informative and helpful.
    2007-12-18 10:05:47
    14.   Jon Weisman
    I added Nate's work on Kuroda's groundball ratio to the post.
    2007-12-18 10:09:00
    15.   Humma Kavula
    Eric, this is great work and tremendous research. You should be proud.

    I have a question. You note:

    None of the eight hurlers who started a game for the Dodgers outside their "Big Three" had an ERA+ of 100 or better. Only the Pittsburgh Pirates and Florida Marlins can share this dubious claim. Think about that for a moment. Nearly every team in the NL got league average innings out of at least one starter outside their top three.

    But we also see that taken as a whole, the third starter has an ERA+ of 98 and the fourth starter and ERA+ of 96. Do the Dodgers (as far as the 4th starter is concerned), Pirates and Marlins drag these averages down below 100, even though all the other teams are at 100 or greater?

    2007-12-18 10:11:10
    16.   Xeifrank
    To me this underscores what terrible luck the Dodgers starting pitchers had with injuries last year (Schmidt, Wolf, Guo). Well, perhaps not all of it was bad luck, some of it was probably predictable. But all three!!? It would be the equivalent of Schmidt, Kuroda and Loaiza all going down with early season injuries in 2008 and lost for the rest of the season. Not too many teams are prepared to lose 3-5ths of their rotation. vr, Xei
    2007-12-18 10:11:37
    17.   Humma Kavula
    Also:

    Nate, what kind of conclusions or projections can we draw from the 2.25:1 GB:FB ratio? Does that number mean that we shouldn't expect Derek Lowesque numbers, but some success wouldn't be surprising?

    2007-12-18 10:11:56
    18.   Xeifrank
    14. Was that only for outs, or all batted balls? vr, Xei
    2007-12-18 10:13:07
    19.   Paul Scott
    That GB rate is new information for me and could completely change my opinion on this acquisition. I have no idea how well it holds up on translation to the US.

    Nate (or anyone),
    I know it would be a small sample size, but do you have any information on whether GB rates stay steady when moving from Japan to the US, or, whether the GB rates in Japan are - on average - comparable across the league to the US?

    2007-12-18 10:14:00
    20.   Xeifrank
    2.25% would've been 8th in the MLB last year.
    vr, Xei
    2007-12-18 10:14:35
    21.   Reiichi
    15 since the starters were ranked by IP, it is possible that the ERA 100+ depth might not have necessarily been in the #4 or even #5 starters slot.

    Basically, the Dodgers had no ERA 100+ depth whatsoever from 4 down.

    2007-12-18 10:15:16
    22.   D4P
    Nate, what kind of conclusions or projections can we draw from the 2.25:1 GB:FB ratio?

    Seems to me we'd really need to know where linedrives fit in before we can really make accurate projections. Clearly, Ratio A would have very different implications than Ratio B, despite having the same GB:FB ratios.

    Ratio A: 9 GBs, 1 FB, 10 LD

    Ratio B: 9 GBs, 1 FB, 1 LD

    2007-12-18 10:15:45
    23.   regfairfield
    17 If it's true, I'm a lot more enthusiastic about this signing. The Dodgers should be targetting ground ball pitchers given how Dodger Stadium plays.

    19 If what Bob said about the Japanese leagues is true, I'd imagine it'd go down with less people trying for the fences and most players just trying to put the bat on the ball.

    2007-12-18 10:16:46
    24.   Kevin Lewis
    Great analysis. Does this mean our back end of the rotation was actually the "trash can". Maybe Kent should have been complaining about the pitching.
    2007-12-18 10:17:03
    25.   Xeifrank
    Conceivably your worst starter could be your #1 starter using IP as the definition. Perhaps an IP & ERA+ combined weighting could be used to determine the starter slots?
    vr, Xei
    2007-12-18 10:17:53
    26.   ToyCannon
    With that GB rate, he is going to love having Kent play 2nd base for him.
    2007-12-18 10:18:07
    27.   Eric Stephen
    15
    Wolf was the #4 starter, in that he threw the 4th most IP. His ERA+ was 97, but no one else was even close to him from the rest of the staff.

    I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe the Rockies got 155 starts out of pitchers with an ERA+ of 97 or better.

    16
    Speaking of luck, look at the Dodgers "rest" versus the Padres. The Padres got even worse pitching than the Dodgers (72 ERA+ vs. the Dodgers' 80) yet the Padres' winning percentage in those games was .477 as compared to a nearly league worst .390 for LA.

    I'm sure some of that was due to the Padres' superior bullpen and offense but I don't all of their advantage was due to those factors.

    2007-12-18 10:18:34
    28.   regfairfield
    Bear in mind we were still fourth in the league in runs allowed (and we would be third if we adjusted for park) so either our big three was way better than everyone elses, or there's something we're missing here.
    2007-12-18 10:19:16
    29.   Jon Weisman
    25 - "Conceivably your worst starter could be your #1 starter using IP as the definition."

    Seems unlikely, though.

    2007-12-18 10:20:57
    30.   Paul Scott
    23 Yes, that makes sense and is my initial guess as well. I am just wondering if anyone has any data (a quick google search did not find anything), since too often in Baseball what "makes sense" turns out to be completely wrong.
    2007-12-18 10:21:49
    31.   D4P
    so either our big three was way better than everyone elses

    The 8 point difference in ERA+ between the Dodgers and adjacent Padres is the largest gap between adjacent teams in the Big Three ERA+ standings.

    2007-12-18 10:22:09
    32.   ToyCannon
    Andrew should go on a recruiting trip down to San Diego.
    2007-12-18 10:22:45
    33.   Xeifrank
    29. It was a worst case scenario. But it's also unlikely that your pitchers value/skill would be correctly ranked if done by IPs. Good pitchers miss starts for injuries, or good young pitchers miss starts from spending time in the minors etc...
    vr, Xei
    2007-12-18 10:23:27
    34.   regfairfield
    30 I agree, but since Nate had to figure that out by hand, and from my initial searches, I don't think there's been an exhaustive study.
    2007-12-18 10:23:34
    35.   Jon Weisman
    28 - Well, as Eric shows, our big three was better than everyone else's.
    2007-12-18 10:25:03
    36.   kngoworld
    This is a better question for the last thread but does anyone know the best airport to fly into when heading to Vero Beach? Perferably one that South West uses. Palm Beach International and Orlando appear to be about the same distance away. Any tips?
    2007-12-18 10:26:24
    37.   Jon Weisman
    33 - I understand. But bad pitchers do get hurt too, and they pitch fewer innings per outing to boot, and they get sent to the bullpen, and they get skipped over for starts. Innings pitched is a decent way to organize things.
    2007-12-18 10:26:56
    38.   regfairfield
    35 To my credit, I feel like I'm pretty close to death right now, but that was really dumb of me.

    However, our big three would have less weight than anyone elses because they threw less innings.

    2007-12-18 10:27:42
    39.   Paul Scott
    38 Not to mention Brad Penny's off-season diet.
    2007-12-18 10:29:21
    40.   regfairfield
    Purely anecdotal, but scouting reports suggested that Matsuzaka was a ground ball pitcher in Japan, and he ended up being a fly ball pitcher over here (.92 G/F).
    2007-12-18 10:30:13
    41.   Xeifrank
    37. Sure, but you are going to see skewed numbers when someone like Lincecum is considered a #4 starter. Or Gallardo on Milwaukee a 5th starter if the NL Central was looked at. vr, Xei
    2007-12-18 10:32:40
    42.   regfairfield
    How did Nate get ground ball information from Japanese baseball?
    2007-12-18 10:33:09
    43.   ToyCannon
    Maybe Nate could review the 2006 box scores for Matsuzaka and see what his GB rate was.
    2007-12-18 10:35:11
    44.   D4P
    43
    He's on his winter break: he has nothing else to do anyway.
    2007-12-18 10:35:32
    45.   kinbote
    38 Good point. Penny's inability to go consistently into the late innings is all that separates him from the elite class of pitchers.
    2007-12-18 10:35:47
    46.   Xeifrank
    42. He looked at the game box scores that he pitched in. I think he only got the outs, but nobody has confirmed that here.

    vr, Xei

    2007-12-18 10:36:06
    47.   Bob Timmermann
    42
    Nate went here:
    http://www.japanesebaseball.com/boxscores.jsp
    and then looked at the somewhat abbreviated play by plays for all but one of Kuroda's starts.

    And echoing an earlier comment, Japanese hitters hit more grounders because they are just trying not to strike out.

    2007-12-18 10:36:50
    48.   Reiichi
    29 depends on your manager!

    Wolf had 18 starts of 97 ERA+
    Hendrickson had 15 starts of 88 ERA+
    Tomko had 15 starts of 79 ERA+
    Wells had 7 starts of 89 ERA+
    Kuo had 6 starts of 62 ERA+
    Schmidt had 6 starts of 72 ERA+
    Loaiza had 5 starts of 55 ERA+
    Stults had 5 starts of 79 ERA+

    Kuo, Schmidt, Loaiza, and Stults all went 1-4 each.

    Wells got lucky and went 4-1.

    I had forgotten about Wolf. Kuroda will need to do make many more starts than Wolf's 18 to be much of an improvement. The rest will depend on starters #5-6+ being healthy enough to not go 1-4 or god forbid 2-11.

    2007-12-18 10:37:16
    49.   Jon Weisman
    45 - Where did Penny rank on innings per start last year? I bet it's higher than people think - because of his consistency.
    2007-12-18 10:40:00
    50.   Eric Stephen
    41
    Milwaukee was the only team to get better numbers from outside their "big 3". Gallardo was actually their 6th starter by IP.

    I tried to remove all subjectivity from this. We could go through and debate which starter occupied which slot, but in reality the innings pitched kind of determine that. Think of it as a way to show how teams allocated their staters' innings. Perhaps if Gallardo was called up sooner, the Brewers would have had a bigger division lead and would have made the playoffs. But they didn't, and that's instructive.

    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2007-12-18 10:40:21
    51.   regfairfield
    47 I checked there, but could only find them for 2007, is that all there is?
    2007-12-18 10:40:30
    52.   D4P
    Japanese hitters hit more grounders because they are just trying not to strike out

    Are any Japanese teams looking for a centerfielder...?

    2007-12-18 10:45:56
    53.   kinbote
    49 Penny was 9th in the NL in overall IP. At quick glance, in 33 starts, he pitched:

    5 innings or fewer: six times
    6/6+ innings: 13 times
    7/7+ innings: 13 times
    8 innings: once

    2007-12-18 10:46:02
    54.   Bob Timmermann
    51
    I think the owner of the website has them, but he might not have the boxscores on his website now.
    2007-12-18 10:47:22
    55.   Jon Weisman
    53 - Yeah, I don't know, but I have to think 27 starts of six innings or more and 14 starts of seven innings or more rank highly.
    2007-12-18 10:48:29
    56.   Eric Stephen
    49
    I have my Excel file at home. I can search when I get home, unless Nate isn't busy. :)

    I know Penny averaged 6.30 IP per start.

    2007-12-18 10:50:30
    57.   Sushirabbit
    53, that does surprise me. Penny really impressed me this year. Here's to him winning the CY Young next year (and getting one HR in DS).
    2007-12-18 10:51:13
    58.   Suffering Bruin
    Dear Eric,

    Bravo!

    Sincerely,

    SB

    2007-12-18 10:51:47
    59.   regfairfield
    55 Penny was 35th in baseball in innings pitched per start (min 100 IP).
    2007-12-18 10:53:58
    60.   kinbote
    55 Jon, I'm failing at finding his NL rank for innings pitched. I think you're right, though: his overall consistency is what would place him highly in that category. Another topic up for debate is how much Little's handling of him impacted his pitching line. I wonder how many times he wanted to go out for the 8th inning?
    2007-12-18 10:54:01
    61.   Johnny Nucleo
    Let me second everyone's compliments on a really interesting piece of work, Eric.

    Something I don't fully understand: among the "big 3", the Padres had more innings pitched and a lower ERA, but a lower ERA+ . Does this reflect park adjustments?

    2007-12-18 10:56:22
    62.   Jack Dawkins
    36 Would you be flying Southwest from an LA area airport? If so, the advantage to flying into Orlando is that you'd likely have fewer stops and plane changes.

    I researched this same question last year and I don't believe any carrier has direct flights from any LA airport to West Palm. Plenty directs from LAX to Orlando, though.

    2007-12-18 10:58:53
    63.   regfairfield
    More importantly, he was 14th in the NL, since comparing him to AL pitchers in unfair.
    2007-12-18 11:01:28
    64.   ToyCannon
    What a difference a year makes when talking about a Penny.
    2007-12-18 11:01:37
    65.   kngoworld
    62 Thanks. Those are pretty much the same results I am getting. Most likely going to fly from LA area, but possibly Las Vegas. Orlanda is offering quite a few more trips then Palm Beach.
    2007-12-18 11:04:26
    66.   Bleed Dodger Blue
    Thumping good read, Eric. Thanks for putting that all together.
    2007-12-18 11:07:51
    67.   Eric Stephen
    61
    Yes, it's purely park adjustments. A league average ERA in Dodger Stadium was 4.57, and was 4.04 in Petco.

    Thanks to everyone for the kind words and thanks to Jon for the opportunity!

    2007-12-18 11:15:22
    68.   underdog
    Hah. Check out Ken's picture on Catfish Stew. Nice one.

    And nice work, Eric - this is most illuminating! Considering the Dodgers also have Schmidt (fingers crossed) and Loiaza (toes crossed) plus Kershaw-McDonald-Stults-Kuo, it's hard to imagine how the bottom of the rotation can't be markedly improved over the '07 model.

    2007-12-18 11:15:55
    69.   underdog
    PS: I like this new font, even if it's just accidental.
    2007-12-18 11:19:01
    70.   jasonungar07
    Wow great job, Eric. As much as Jon provides great info and awesome persepctive, it's the group and the commentors that makes this site a must login for me daily. Great job everyone.
    2007-12-18 11:24:28
    71.   Jon Weisman
    69 - The font is called Guestcommentator Gothic Condensed Regular Light.
    2007-12-18 11:32:18
    72.   jasonungar07
    Fox sports:

    Carlos Silva, perhaps the top starting pitcher remaining on the free-agent market, does not figure to be available much longer.

    The Mariners are in serious negotiations with Silva on a contract that would be worth at least $44 million over four years, according to major-league sources.

    --

    2007-12-18 11:45:50
    73.   das411
    This is a terrific post! Hopefully we'll all have it bookmarked to come back to when you guys trade Andy LaRoche for Adam Eaton ;)

    68 - wasn't this the general consensus going into '07 with Schmidt and Wolf added though?

    2007-12-18 11:52:42
    74.   Eric Stephen
    73
    Going into 2007, the "Big Three" were Schmidt-Lowe-Penny, with Wolf in the Kuroda role, and Tomko/Hendrickson in the Schmidt/Loaiza role, with Billingsley-Kuo in the up & coming role (although most of use here thought Billingsley should have been in the rotation much sooner, if not from the beginning of the season).

    Meaning, now matter how much we plan, we will probably need one or more of Kuo, McDonald, or Kershaw to start at some point this season.

    2007-12-18 11:57:33
    75.   natepurcell
    I only figured out Ground out/ fly out ratios.

    They didn't have specifics on whether the hits were groundballs, flyballs or line drives.

    I included sac bunts as ground outs and line outs as fly outs if that makes any difference.

    What does this mean for Kuroda? If they can get more than 124 IP with an ERA+ of 96 or more out of their newest Japanese import, they will be above average in the National League, and I'd call his season a success.

    You could have just used the Kuroda Accord!

    2007-12-18 12:00:39
    76.   Bob Timmermann
    Now the font... it's all gone...
    It's back to normal...

    Ahh, it was a good ride..

    2007-12-18 12:03:33
    77.   Kevin Lewis
    72

    Ouch

    2007-12-18 12:06:25
    78.   Eric Stephen
    75
    If anything, this verifies the parameters of the Kuroda Accord.
    2007-12-18 12:10:35
    79.   Kevin Lewis
    Who is Helene Elliot over at the LAT? She game McCourt a moral/ethical slap on the wrist over the Bennett signing.
    2007-12-18 12:10:51
    80.   Kevin Lewis
    gave, not game
    2007-12-18 12:11:10