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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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Dodger/Angel Chat
2008-01-29 10:21
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

The futures of the Dodgers and Angels are being debated at a chat hosted by Tim Kurkjian of ESPN.com.

Can't both teams have bright futures?

Comments (409)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-01-29 10:27:45
1.   Eric Stephen
ESPN is very Highlander in their offseason baseball "debates". In the end, apparently there can only be one.
2008-01-29 10:28:20
2.   bigcpa
Just when you thought the Dodger mailbag could not be outdone, Kurkjian just fielded a question about Garrett Anderson's HOF chances.
2008-01-29 10:29:15
3.   bhsportsguy
I was just going to post that but Jon just made it a new topic.

I think the Angels have the better starting staff, best hitter on the either team, better defense (though the addition of Jones and LaRoche probably makes the Dodgers outfield closer)

I think Broxton/Saito vs. Shields/K-Rod is getting closer if not even already.

Overall, the Angels certainly have been the more successful team in terms of wins and losses but off the field, it has yet to be proven if the Moreno's strategy to brand the team as an LA team has paid off.

2008-01-29 10:33:17
4.   bhsportsguy
I like Tim Kurkijan but he has horrible sources and I don't think an East Coast guy should take on this kind of debate.

And what "former" Dodger said Kemp should be dealt because he is highly coveted, was he a former outfielder by chance. (being tabbed as a "former Dodger" lets Kent off the hook but then again, I don't Jeff being a source for anyone except Simers)

2008-01-29 10:35:52
5.   bhsportsguy
Jon, maybe you and Rob can do this debate with better informed opinions.

And you are right, I think we are getting closer to a possible Golden State World Series than ever.

2008-01-29 10:38:24
6.   fanerman
5 Wasn't SF-Anaheim a Golden State World Series?
2008-01-29 10:38:38
7.   Eric Stephen
From the chat:

"Nomar, ...according to one scout, his bat slowed last year"

Emphasis mine. Really? Only one scout? Are there any scouts that saw Nomar last year and didn't think his bat slowed down?

2008-01-29 10:39:02
8.   Eric Stephen
6
I thought he meant Golden State freeway.
2008-01-29 10:39:34
9.   Humma Kavula
2 Not that I disagree, but with the steroid debacle at full tilt, HOF discussions could get very strange over the next few years. Players perceived as being on the juice will be hurt, as we see from McGwire. I wonder if that also means that players perceived to be clean -- as Anderson is perceived to be -- will get some "extra credit" from some voters if their career numbers are close. Sample line from this argument: "Sure, he only has 2,500 (or 2,600, or 2,700) hits, but in an age of bulked-up players, Anderson played the game as it was meant to be played..."

Obviously, I wouldn't vote for him, and I don't even think that he will garner enough support to get elected. But I do think there's a chance that because of the steroid mess, the voting could get strange enough that Anderson might receive a significant show of support and hang around on the ballot for a long time.

2008-01-29 10:41:55
10.   Ken Noe
7 There was a Webelos from Whittier.
2008-01-29 10:42:55
11.   bhsportsguy
For Bob - The law firm is transferring to another school.

See if anyone else can figure that code.

2008-01-29 10:43:39
12.   old dodger fan
9 Hasn't seemed to help Blyleven.
2008-01-29 10:44:22
13.   Jon Weisman
11 - You're out of quarterbacks.
2008-01-29 10:44:37
14.   Bob Timmermann
But the Golden State Freeway doesn't go to San Francisco.
2008-01-29 10:44:45
15.   Jon Weisman
5 - But it's such an uninteresting debate.
2008-01-29 10:45:12
16.   fanerman
10 I'm from Whittier, but I was never a Cub Scout. Nomar is also from Whittier.
2008-01-29 10:47:56
17.   Ken Noe
17 I was a Cub Scout but I've never been to Whittier. There's a big Nomar fan on other boards from there, though.
2008-01-29 10:50:12
18.   Humma Kavula
12 I disagree, for two reasons.

First, Blyleven's support has grown steadily over the years. He's now over 60% and will likely be elected by the BBWAA.

Second, Jim Rice and Andre Dawson both saw great increases in their support this year. Rice will almost certainly get elected next year. Dawson may or may not make it, but my point is that come people who otherwise wouldn't vote for him are getting on board because he is perceived as being clean. Will this be enough to get him elected? Maybe not.

2008-01-29 10:53:55
19.   bigcpa
If Joe Carter can't break 10% as the "RBI King of his era" and a Mazeroski moment, then Anderson has no chance.
2008-01-29 10:55:10
20.   Humma Kavula
You know, I really shouldn't hedge in my second paragraph in 18 . I do think Dawson will be elected, for the same reason that I think Blyleven will be elected -- that is, he has already garnered support from 60% of the voters.

I also think that the growth in his support has something to do with the steroids mess, but I could be wrong.

2008-01-29 10:55:45
21.   D4P
If Joe Carter can break 10% as the "RBI King of his era" and a Mazeroski moment, then Anderson has no chance.
2008-01-29 10:57:53
22.   Humma Kavula
19 Maybe Anderson isn't a good example (and yes, I realize that that's how this conversation got started). What do you think about the larger point -- that there are borderline or even not-so-borderline players whose HOF cases will be HELPED by the scandal, because they are perceived as being clean?
2008-01-29 10:59:59
23.   ToyCannon
Anderson has no chance but Maz was much more then a moment. He was the Ozzie Smith of 2nd baseman.
2008-01-29 11:00:00
24.   D4P
22
Given the moronicism of the HOF voters, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of them "punish" PED suspects by voting in "clean" players with worse numbers.
2008-01-29 11:02:18
25.   old dodger fan
20 I don't think Blyleven has ever broken 50%.
2008-01-29 11:02:23
26.   bhsportsguy
13 Just one.
2008-01-29 11:04:22
27.   Humma Kavula
25 He did this year. 61.9%.
2008-01-29 11:10:24
28.   old dodger fan
27 You are correct. I was looking at the previous years vote. There is hope.
2008-01-29 11:13:31
29.   D4P
I don't really "get" the notion of increasing HOF support for a player. Either he's qualified when he's first eligible, or he's not.
2008-01-29 11:14:10
30.   bigcpa
22 Sure I'll agree with that, especially since blank ballots are unusual. Maybe the Roid era will steer voters away from the gaudy counting stats and toward shorter productive careers like Edgar Martinez.
2008-01-29 11:20:01
31.   Humma Kavula
30 Edgar Martinez will be an interesting case. Can a DH -- with no value on defense -- be a Hall of Famer? Three possible answers to this question.

1) No.
2) Yes, if he hits like Edgar Martinez.
3) Yes, but he must hit even better than Edgar Martinez.

My answer is #2, but I can definitely see the case for #3.

2008-01-29 11:23:21
32.   bigcpa
31 Compare contrast Edgar to Molitor. To me the only edge Molitor has is AB.
2008-01-29 11:29:16
33.   fanerman
I like Edgar Martinez.
2008-01-29 11:31:45
34.   bhsportsguy
29 Lets see Joe Dimaggio, did he get in on his first ballot, no, second, nope, third time, yes.

Drysdale, lets see, he got in but only after being on several ballots.

For many years, writers felt they were the gatekeepers and only very few got the honor of being first ballot Hall of Famers. Over the last 30 years, that has changed as most players who are elected, go in on their first ballot.

I think the way the football voters elect their Hall of Famers is even more ridiculous.

2008-01-29 11:32:31
35.   Ken Arneson
31 The answer is probably (4) Yes, if he hits like Edgar Martinez longer than Edgar Martinez hit like Edgar Martinez.

Really, the only problem with Martinez' resume is that the Mariners buried him in the minors until he was 27 years old.

2008-01-29 11:34:10
36.   GMac In The 909
29 The voting system is severely flawed.

I used to work with a HOF voter who hadn't been to a baseball game -- for work or pleasure -- in about two decades and didn't even watch the sport on TV in that span. Yet since he paid his dues every year, he always got a ballot and voted. I'm also fairly certain he sent in blank ballots from time to time.

2008-01-29 11:35:05
37.   bigcpa
31 You could argue that Molitor already was the DH test case with 44% of his PA as a DH. Although he had the knee-jerk 3,000 hits to end any debate. (Edgar had 72% of his PA as a DH.)
2008-01-29 11:38:09
38.   bhsportsguy
Hey Toy Cannon, I was reading Bill James Historical Abstract (revised) last night and when you look at his list of the top 100 catchers, the LA Dodgers are well represented with Piazza, Rosebero, Haller, Sciosia, Yeager and Fergueson. Of course Campanella was on the list (at No. 3).

No other position in LA Dodger history has been so well occupied and now we have Russell Martin, already an all-star manning the post.

2008-01-29 11:38:49
39.   fanerman
36 So how does one get to be a HOF voter?
2008-01-29 11:41:19
40.   thinkblue0
the sun is out today...reminded me that pitchers and catchers report soon. Huzzah!
2008-01-29 11:41:48
41.   old dodger fan
29 I completely agree with you. Why would a voter not vote for a player one year and vote for him the next. Let's ignore the "1st ballot honor" issue and look at 2nd ballot. Lots of players see significant changes in their vote totals over the years. I can see "steroid taint" changing a voters mind but that's pretty new. Once a voter makes up his mind (and he has 5 years to think about it) why would he change it?
2008-01-29 11:43:30
42.   Xeifrank
Ahhh, HOF chat. The poor mans field goal chat. vr, Xei
2008-01-29 11:45:28
43.   Humma Kavula
42 We could chat about which team, the Dodgers or the Angels, has a brighter future.
2008-01-29 11:45:31
44.   regfairfield
It's really hard to be a better hitter than Edgar Martinez (only Bonds, Griffey, and Thomas had higher VORPs in the 90s), so I'm gonna say yes.
2008-01-29 11:46:41
45.   kinbote
That chat was so riveting I almost forgot that I just read it.

On a semi-related note, is anyone else in favor of extending Brad Penny sooner than later? When I look at our future rotation, I see a lot of potential: Bills, Kershaw, McDonald, Meloan, Elbert, Withrow, et al. But it would make me more comfortable if we had someone like Penny there year after year. If there's any way we can get him for close to what Peavy just signed for [I know they are different situations], I think it might be prudent.

Really, aside from the young pre-arbitration bunch, there's no other player I'm interested in extending.

(Strangely, I was in favor of trading Penny last offseason--shows how much I know!)

2008-01-29 11:47:43
46.   ToyCannon
38
Yes, but shockingly the Pittsburgh Pirates had more catchers with a seasonal OPS+ > 100 since 1958 then the Dodgers.
2008-01-29 11:48:17
47.   bhsportsguy
39 For the initial election:

Authorization — Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA) is authorized to hold an election every year for the purpose of electing members to the National Baseball Hall of Fame from the ranks of retired baseball players.

Only active and honorary members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America, who have been active baseball writers for at least ten (10) years, shall be eligible to vote. They must have been active as baseball writers and members of the Association for a period beginning at least ten (10) years prior to the date of election in which they are voting.

There is also an Veterans' Committee that can elect those passed by or other non-players who do not have to be out of the game as long as the players.

2008-01-29 11:48:27
48.   regfairfield
45 Penny's massive hit to his K/BB last year makes me really hesistant to extend him at least until the end of this year.
2008-01-29 11:48:32
49.   Eric Enders
32 Molitor blows Edgar out of the water with regard to career length, baserunning (which, although overrated, can't be completely ignored), and 10 years of actual defensive value at prime positions. Molitor was actually an excellent defensive player who became a DH because of injuries, not incompetence.
2008-01-29 11:48:45
50.   bigcpa
I'll take HOF chat over 3 days of Kemp-for-Bedard hysterics while Peter Angelos files his nails pondering.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-01-29 11:49:15
51.   wireroom
34 Joe Dimaggio wasn't voted into the HOF in his first year eligible? Wow, I am shocked. I always thought he was considered the best player of his era.
2008-01-29 11:50:20
52.   ToyCannon
45
Why would you expect Penny to be any good year after year going forward? We already got his best, let someone else pay for his decline.
2008-01-29 11:50:38
53.   bhsportsguy
46 But that could have been different if Fergie had been the everyday catcher instead of Yeager.

I am sure I am blocking out the Duke Sims/Chris Cannizzaro years.

2008-01-29 11:50:49
54.   regfairfield
51 That's why no one gets in unanimously. At least a few guys had the attitude of if Dimmagio didn't get in first ballot, ain't nobody getting in first ballot.
2008-01-29 11:51:03
55.   GMac In The 909
39 He covered baseball in the early-to-mid 80s, if I am not mistaken.
2008-01-29 11:51:17
56.   fanerman
42 Yesterday's chat reminded me of how much I hate field goals, something I sort of ignored/bottled-up for awhile (a year or two, the last time I brought it up to anybody who I thought might actually agree with me). Let's stick to the hall of fame.
2008-01-29 11:51:59
57.   Eric Enders
45 I'm in favor of extending Brad Penny later rather than sooner because the collapse of his strikeout rate worries me and I fear he's in for a big fall in 2008.
2008-01-29 11:53:26
58.   bhsportsguy
51

1953 - 117 votes 44.3%
1954 - 175 votes 69.4%
1955 - 223 votes 88.8%

2008-01-29 11:54:22
59.   fanerman
49 I thought Edgar tore his hamstring or something.
2008-01-29 11:55:57
60.   bigcpa
49 True but you're legitimizing career length as something to celebrate. Edgar had 1,000 more PA's than Mattingly. He has 12 seasons of 130 OPS+ which someone with br-pi can put into HOF context.
2008-01-29 11:57:03
61.   Eric Enders
When Joe DiMaggio retired, the eligibility rules were not yet in place. Thus, DiMaggio had no "first year of eligibility." You could be an active player and still get votes. Lou Gehrig, for example, received 23% of the vote in 1936, three years before he retired.
2008-01-29 11:58:01
62.   kinbote
48 52 57 Thank you for your responses. This is great place to ask a Dodger question and receive several intelligent answers.
2008-01-29 11:59:22
63.   Humma Kavula
58 Joltin' Joe's last year as a player was 1951.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the rules were the same at the time (five-year waiting period), it looks like DiMaggio wasn't "eligible" in 1953 or 1954, but got some write-in votes anyway. Then, in 1955, when he was eligible, he got in. Is that correct? Or were the rules different then?

2008-01-29 11:59:45
64.   paranoidandroid
Count me as one who considers HOF chat and all it's issues as boring.

Will anyone care about who is even in there in two hundred years?

I spend so much of my limited time above ground on this silly game as it is, I can care less where you draw an imaginary line as to who is good enough to be on one side of that line. BORING.

2008-01-29 11:59:52
65.   Humma Kavula
63 Should have refreshed. Thanks, Eric.
2008-01-29 12:00:11
66.   bhsportsguy
Quiz time, this HOF took 5 votes to get in

1974 118 votes 32.3%
1975 148 votes 40.9%
1976 189 votes 48.7%
1977 239 votes 62.4%
1978 301 votes 79.4%

Any guesses?

2008-01-29 12:00:58
67.   regfairfield
Old Edgar's Place All Time:

Average - 91st
On base - 21st
Slugging - 67th
OPS - 35th
OPS+ - 41st

Maybe he's not first ballot, how could you not vote this guy in type of material, but he is without a doubt one of the greatest hitters of all time.

2008-01-29 12:02:19
68.   fanerman
I also think that Edgar had a great looking swing.
2008-01-29 12:03:02
69.   bhsportsguy
63 Rules were different, from Wikipedia.org, "from the 1946 election until the 1954 election, an official one-year waiting period was in effect. (DiMaggio, for example, retired after the 1951 season and was first eligible in the 1953 election.)"

"The modern rule establishing a wait of five years was passed in 1954, although an exception was made for Joe DiMaggio because of his high level of previous support, thus permitting him to be elected within four years of his retirement."

2008-01-29 12:05:01
70.   D4P
Will anyone care about who is even in there in two hundred years?

I don't even care now.

2008-01-29 12:06:13
71.   Humma Kavula
67 I'd vote for Edgar, but I'll play devil's advocate.

He contributed nothing on defense. Because Martinez couldn't play his position, 3B, the Mariners played Russ Davis.

That's the best I can do. It's not a very good argument.

2008-01-29 12:06:21
72.   Bob Timmermann
Joe DiMaggio didn't get in on the first ballot because the Hall of Fame had to deal with a big backlog of players at the outset. It didn't want to induct 20-30 players at a time.

In his first year on the ballot, 1954, DiMaggio still got 69% of the vote, but he trailed Bill Terry, Bill Dickey, and the player who got the most votes that year:

Rabbit Maranville.

DiMaggio was the top votegetter the next year. He made it in with Ted Lyons, Dazzy Vance, and Gabby Hartnett.

Here are the results of the very first ballot in 1936:
http://tinyurl.com/yr78o8

Lots of extraordinary players didn't make it in.

Saying that no one should get in on the first ballot of the Hall of Fame is akin to saying that Thomas Jefferson was a lesser historical figure because he was just the 3rd President.

This is fanerman's favorite inductee into the Pro Football Hall of Fame:
http://tinyurl.com/28nytc

2008-01-29 12:06:37
73.   bhsportsguy
64 Let's see, its been 70 years since the museum opened and its debated as hotly as ever today.

Look, I don't know if anyone will be talking about Babe Ruth or A-Rod in 200 years but I do know that for me, the first thing I ever read was a book about the first 5 elected to the Hall of Fame and it has stuck with me ever since. (I will probably forget where I live when I am a old man but I will know that Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Mathewson and Johnson were the first 5 elected to HOF). And one of my all-time vacation highlights was spending a day in Cooperstown.

2008-01-29 12:08:02
74.   Eric Enders
69 This is one case where you perhaps shouldn't trust Wikipedia. Satchel Paige, for example, got votes as an active player in 1951.
2008-01-29 12:09:03
75.   paranoidandroid
If we traded Brad Penny (as speculated) last spring, his value would have been quite a bit less than it is now after his breakdown the second half of 2006 and his poor spring training.

Trading him now coming off his best season with two years left at a reasonable 8 mil a season (one year plus club option) would make him a very valuable commodity.

His name hasn't been tossed about but it wouldn't surprise me if he gets dealt before he serves out his contract with us. I wouldn't advocate moving him unless we know we have healthy options like Kuo, Schmidt, and Loaiza coming along and perhaps a Kershaw showing he is ready for the bigs.

I don't think we'll extend him at all. If we do, it will be next offseason. If he has a great year this year for us (I hope), he might price himself out of our reach. With Bills and Kershaw and hopefully Kuo and McDonald, we might not be looking at a big contract for a power guy who is 32 years old.

2008-01-29 12:12:26
76.   fanerman
72 I don't hate or disrespect kickers. The rule is in place for them and if the optimal strategy is to use them, then that's what you should do. Unless you're playing video game football, in which case the use of punting, field goals, extra points, and non on-side kickoffs are bannable offenses.

You seemed to be offended by my opinions yesterday. Were you?

2008-01-29 12:12:39
77.   Marty
46 Loved that Manny Sanguillen.
2008-01-29 12:13:21
78.   bhsportsguy
74 I'm not arguing with a man who knows that place backwards and forwards.
2008-01-29 12:13:39
79.   Bob Timmermann
76
No, I wasn't offended at all. I found the whole discussion quite interesting. I just like special teams play.
2008-01-29 12:14:15
80.   Eric Enders
I would be content to let Penny pitch the rest of his contract and then take the two draft picks. We'll probably be in contention in 2009 so it's not like we'll be looking to trade him to a contender at the deadline that year.
2008-01-29 12:15:08
81.   bhsportsguy
74 What's your opinion of the "Sacred Grounds" exhibit.
2008-01-29 12:15:13
82.   Jon Weisman
I did a quick blog post about "In Treatment."

http://weblogs.variety.com/season_pass/2008/01/the-treatment-b.html

D4P, I'm counting on you to watch.

2008-01-29 12:17:25
83.   Eric Enders
78 Oh, I don't necessarily know it backwards and forwards. I just know Wikipedia doesn't.
2008-01-29 12:18:04
84.   wireroom
75 I always have that nerve condition in the back of my mind with Penny. They said it was something that can come back at anytime for no reason at all. The Dodgers have a few pretty suspect starters this year as far as injury and falloff. Lowe with his bad hip, Penny and his bad second half. I worry.
2008-01-29 12:18:06
85.   D4P
82
Had never heard of it. I guess you thought of me because of the TMYLM connection...?
2008-01-29 12:23:05
86.   Eric Enders
81 I'm a big fan of it, although not an unbiased observer since the guy who did most of it is one of my closest friends.

The quality of the new Hall of Fame exhibits has increased hundredfold since about 1995, when they started hiring actual curators with advanced degrees in Museum Studies, instead of having some random local guy whip up labels on his typewriter in the basement.

2008-01-29 12:23:44
87.   Bob Timmermann
82
I watched it and I didn't like it at first, but it got better as it went along.

But I think this could get pretty tiring after 10 episodes.

2008-01-29 12:25:18
88.   Humma Kavula
Thinking about Edgar has me wondering:

Has any team had more talent with less to show for it? Four HOF-worthy talents in Rodriguez, Griffey, Martinez, and Johnson result in three playoff appearances, never making it to the WS, between 1995 and 2000. By '01, three of them are gone. (Of course, in '01, they won 116 games and still couldn't get past the Yankees in the ALCS.)

I'll grant that the late-90s Yankees were extraordinary. But man, the Mariners shoulda coulda woulda.

2008-01-29 12:29:15
89.   Bob Timmermann
The Giants won the pennant in 1962 and almost won the World Series. They had a team with Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, and Orlando Cepeda.

They didn't win a pennant.

2008-01-29 12:29:23
90.   Jon Weisman
87 - I'm wondering if I can actually watch them the night they air.

But I got a screener for the first two new episodes of "Lost" today - so that plan could go out the window.

2008-01-29 12:29:28
91.   bhsportsguy
88 The early '60s SF Giants had Willie Mays, Juan Marichal, Orlando Cepada, Willie McCovey, the Alou brothers and some other pretty good players. They won one pennant (in a 3 game playoff with the Dodgers) but otherwise were not as fortunate as their Manifest Destiny brothers.
2008-01-29 12:29:33
92.   Eric Enders
88 The Mariners kind of had filler at most of the other positions, which I guess was their problem.

The late-sixties Cubs had four should-be Hall of Famers in Banks, Williams, Santo, and Jenkins, and didn't even accomplish as much as the Mariners did.

2008-01-29 12:29:49
93.   D4P
87
Did you end up watching the entire season of TMYLM, or did you quit after the first few episodes?
2008-01-29 12:31:14
94.   fanerman
79 Oh okay then. Cool. Back to Edgar chat.
2008-01-29 12:31:21
95.   bhsportsguy
89 I swear I wrote my post 91 without seeing yours and I forgot about Gaylord Perry.
2008-01-29 12:32:20
96.   regfairfield
92 Pretty much the problem with every team where you wonder "how could they lose with those guys." Good teams realize they lost because they had firmly set Dan Wilson at catcher, bad teams say it's Willie Mays' fault.
2008-01-29 12:35:13
97.   Eric Enders
In 1999, the Mariners' starting left fielder had an OPS+ of 46.

And they gave him 484 at bats.

2008-01-29 12:36:12
98.   paranoidandroid
84 Lowe has never been on the DL, he doesn't concern me as much as Penny with a history of issues.
2008-01-29 12:36:12
99.   Bob Timmermann
93
I gave up after two episodes and erased the setting on my DVR to record the show and then tried to have my memory wiped of ever having seen the show.
2008-01-29 12:38:10
100.   D4P
99
I would guess that a large majority of persons who watched all 10 episodes would agree that the show improved dramatically after the second episode.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-01-29 12:40:26
101.   Bob Timmermann
100
Would that be 8 of the 10 people who made it to the end?
2008-01-29 12:45:02
102.   D4P
101
Four out of five viewers agree.
2008-01-29 12:52:20
103.   Suffering Bruin
Just got back from my son's field trip to Dana Point. We spent time on a replica of a 19th century boat, complete with a crew that replicated 19th century attitudes. Dinner was stew, breakfast was gruel. Chores aplenty. Jon, you have this to look forward to.

Not why I'm writing, though.

I write because after little sleep (and a lot of fun, to be frank) I wanted to enjoy a cup of tea. I figured while doing so, I'd read the Kurkjian chat. And I saw this...

A former Dodger told me that now is the time to trade Matt Kemp, because he's so coveted, you might get a good deal for him.

PHHBBBTTT!

And down goes another keyboard.

2008-01-29 12:52:45
104.   bhsportsguy
How would you have like to have this problem:
In 1962, Orlando Cepeda was the starting 1B for the Giants and put up some pretty good numbers 35 HR, .306/.347/.518 in 660+ plate appearances. And he was only 24 years old.

However, Willie McCovey, who was also 24, and because of Cepeda, had to find some part-time work in the outfield, put up these numbers in 250+ plate appearances, 20 HR, .293/.368/.590

The following two seasons, McCovey continued to play in the outfield (at 6'4" he is two inches taller than Matt Kemp) but the Giants, must have decided that they needed to make a decision, did and helped the Cardinals win the 1967/1968 pennants by making probably the second best deal the Cardinals made in the '60s (Brock trade being the first) dealing Ray Sadecki for Orlando Cepeda in the beginning of the 1965 season.

There are still arguments in San Francisco that the Cepeda deal is the worst trade in team (San Francisco) history.

2008-01-29 12:53:56
105.   bhsportsguy
103 Ummm, I noted that way up above but I guess you needed to vent, no problem SB.
2008-01-29 12:56:14
106.   regfairfield
103 It's about as effective of a gambit as forfeit the game.
2008-01-29 12:57:00
107.   Bob Timmermann
104
I think the Cepeda for Sadecki is the leader among SF Giants fans in the bad trade department.

Francisco Liriano and Joe Nathan for A.J. Pierzynski could give it a run.

2008-01-29 13:01:59
108.   silverwidow
104 Kemp is a legit 6'4"
2008-01-29 13:03:05
109.   Bob Timmermann
A moment of silence for UCLA fans:

McLeod Bethel-Thompson has transfered to Sacramento State.

[pause]

Thank you.

2008-01-29 13:03:46
110.   paranoidandroid
I vote we pitch in and create a bronze statue of Kemp that can be displayed beyond center field about twenty feet from the enterance to the pavilion seats.

Hey Ned! Try trading a guy with that kind of support before he gets a full year in the bigs.

2008-01-29 13:04:45
111.   regfairfield
109 I really, really hope his parents aren't gigantic sci-fi dorks.
2008-01-29 13:19:30
112.   Jon Weisman
109 - See 11 .
2008-01-29 13:19:45
113.   Dodgers49
Belated Support Puts Boston Ahead of Curve

>> The Boston Red Sox were the last major league team to have a black player (Pumpsie Green in 1959), and now, half a century later, it appeared they were using Jackie Robinson for their own self-interest. <<

http://tinyurl.com/2df6ng

2008-01-29 13:20:46
114.   old dodger fan
From CBS Sportsline-Oregon State coach quoted after the loss to UCLA,

"They have two special guys, they have a great couch," Mouton said about the Bruins. "So it will be interesting to see where they end up."

I hope he was misquoted.

2008-01-29 13:21:28
115.   Jim Hitchcock
103 The fun begin when you pull the pirate raid on Doheny, SB.
2008-01-29 13:25:53
116.   Eric Enders
Two special guys and a great couch sounds like a sitcom premise.

Who's the second guy, though? Collison? Shipp? Luc Richard?

2008-01-29 13:27:21
117.   trainwreck
109
Gain a new quarterback, but lose a law firm in the process.
2008-01-29 13:27:48
118.   Xeifrank
Johan Santana to the Mets per...
Metsblog.com

to be exact:

http://www.metsblog.com/2008/01/29/news-mets-acquire-santana-from-twins/

vr, Xei

2008-01-29 13:29:01
119.   Xeifrank
118. According to USA Today, the deal will include Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.

Seems like the Dodgers could've trumped that trade. vr, Xei

2008-01-29 13:29:37
120.   Xeifrank
118,119. The deal is pending the approval of Peter Angelos. :) j/k
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 13:29:47
121.   trainwreck
118
Oh, dang. Was just about to post that.

I blame the MBT.

Here is USA Today link:

http://tinyurl.com/yvp3rk

2008-01-29 13:30:54
122.   Eric Enders
That's a pretty huge dropoff from Kershaw, Kemp, and LaRoche.

If that's really the trade, great deal for the Mets.

2008-01-29 13:31:18
123.   fanerman
I don't know anything about Mets prospects, but are Fernando Martinez and Mike Pelfrey their A-level guys?
2008-01-29 13:31:31
124.   underdog
I know no one here does this, thank dog, but can someone explain the trend on other forums - like Yahoo rumors and so on - for people to get excited when they think they are the first poster? What's all this "first!" nonsense? Or are we closer to an Idiocracy than Mike Judge even predicted...?

--

Oh, and... freakin Twins. That's all? Sigh.

2008-01-29 13:31:46
125.   regfairfield
118 Wow, that's robbery right there.
2008-01-29 13:32:15
126.   trainwreck
Mets, better hope they do not have pitching injuries, because their system is pretty much dry now.
2008-01-29 13:33:24
127.   regfairfield
123 I'd rather have Humber than Pelfry, but neither of them look great. Martinez is the guy they needed to keep.
2008-01-29 13:34:04
128.   fanerman
127 What about the guys they did get?
2008-01-29 13:34:35
129.   regfairfield
Braves, Mets and Phillies all kind of look like the same team now. Very good offense, solid defense, and two good starters without any kind of backup plan. Should be a fun race.
2008-01-29 13:37:14
130.   trainwreck
Guerra is the Mets' best pitching prospect.
2008-01-29 13:38:31
131.   trainwreck
Mulvey is a very good stats guy and should be a solid pitcher.

Gomez is iffy. Mets rushed him, but he has a lot of tools, but still questions whether he will be a good hitter.

2008-01-29 13:38:48
132.   old dodger fan
116 Collison scored 33 in the game so that must be who he was talking about.
2008-01-29 13:40:47
133.   Xeifrank
If (BIG) Pedro Martinez is healthy the Mets will have a nasty 1-2 punch at the top of their rotation. vr, Xei
2008-01-29 13:41:34
134.   old dodger fan
CBS says the trade is, "Pending contract extension".
2008-01-29 13:43:08
135.   Suffering Bruin
105 Yeah, my bad there. How bad? I actually saw your post after I read the article, was going to say as much, and forgot while I was typing. There are days where I think my wife may be right about my mind. (sigh)

And now Bethel-Thompson leaves the powder and gold. Will this day never end?

2008-01-29 13:43:32
136.   Jon Weisman
If anyone wants to evaluate the prospects the Mets gave up in a Dodger context, I wouldn't mind posting or linking it.
2008-01-29 13:45:54
137.   underdog
A six or seven year extension for Santana? Wow. I'm even more glad we didn't make this trade.
2008-01-29 13:46:53
138.   underdog
136 The extent of my analysis on that one =

Mets Prospects traded < Dodgers Prospects requested

2008-01-29 13:47:52
139.   fanerman
I was hoping the Mets would give up the farm to get him. It looks like they didn't.
2008-01-29 13:48:44
140.   Jon Weisman
138 - Yeah ... now, if someone could back that up :)
2008-01-29 13:49:00
141.   cargill06
mets are a scary scary team, by far the team to beat in the NL now
2008-01-29 13:49:02
142.   trainwreck
139
Kind of did, but they did not have much of a farm to speak of.
2008-01-29 13:49:56
143.   ToyCannon
They did get the 2,3, 5 top prospects plus Gomez who had to many at bats to qualify.

Not sure this is really robbery when the Met's are in negotiation for a 7 year deal. I wonder if it will be close to the 175 that I said would take to make it done or Cargill's 100.

The Mets needed this deal, the Sox and Yankee's did not. This is where Johan wanted to go and the Twins got loads of pitching. They will probably swap some of that as soon as they find out how Liriano is looking this spring for some infield help.

We easily could have beat the deal if we wanted to but no way is McCourt giving Johan the contract he will get from the Mets which is why Johan wanted to go to the Mets.

Ethier, McDonald, Elbert, Meloan might be the closest I can come to approximation of the prospects.

2008-01-29 13:54:01
144.   ToyCannon
You can't compare the deal to Haren because Haren did not have a no - trade and he's under contract for 3 years. The only reason this looks light is because of what the media was reporting the other offers were.
What we don't know is if Johan even wanted to play in Boston, Seattle, or NY or if the offers the media was talking about were concrete.
When your talking about a one year free agent who is going to cost you north of 150Million and who has a complete no trade getting what the Twins did is probably reasonable.
2008-01-29 13:54:12
145.   Joe Pierre
I'd like to think the Angels are sliding down to mediocraty, they still have a good team but I think they are about to become a little ordinary for a while. The Dodgers with young Martin,Loney,Kemp,LaRoche&Billingsley are on their way up.
2008-01-29 13:55:49
146.   regfairfield
131 Mulvey's strikeout rate is way too low to be considered a stats guy.
2008-01-29 13:57:05
147.   Disabled List
Anyone want to take a guess on what the Santana extension is gonna be?

I'm thinking 6 years, $130 million.

2008-01-29 13:58:03
148.   trainwreck
Keith Law is complaining the Twins did not agree Pelphrey and Martinez. I agree about getting Martinez over Gomez, but Pelphrey has no secondary pitches. He throws hard, but I do not think he will ever live up to hype.
2008-01-29 13:59:31
149.   Suffering Bruin
136

Carlos Gomez was compared favorably to Miguel Cabrera, Bobby Abreu and Carlos Beltran probably because he was sort of built like those guys. Unfortunately, one of those pesky bloggers did a little research and found that compared to those three guys, Gomez... well, he is sort of built like Beltran. (http://tinyurl.com/yukcsg). Granted this is from 2006. He's only 22.

Phil Humber is a pitcher. He's thrown about 300 minor league innings. He had a 4.21 ERA at AAA ball. He's 24.

Deolis Guerra is an A-ball pitcher who, if he were a year younger, would be taking a final exam in one of my classes tomorrow.

Kevin Mulvey pitched pretty well at AA but wasn't in the same zip code as several Dodger pitchers. His stats are here: (http://tinyurl.com/2h4jej)

Unless they have same darn good scouts or unless Gomez is really, really ready, I don't see this as a good deal for the Twinkies.

2008-01-29 14:00:15
150.   trainwreck
146
But he does have low walk rates and good ground ball ratios.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-01-29 14:00:29
151.   JoeyP
We easily could have beat the deal if we wanted to but no way is McCourt giving Johan the contract he will get from the Mets which is why Johan wanted to go to the Mets.

This is troubling.
If McCourt is willing to pay Nomar, Pierre, Loaiza, Kuroda....he must be willing to pay for Johan Santana.

A great deal for the Mets.

For the Dodgers, the beat goes on.

BHSportsguy used to say that the Dodgers have never not signed anyone due to contract demands. If what Toycannon saying is true, then this is a prime example of why throwing money down the drain at crap (Loaiza, Kuroda, Pierre, Nomar) can come back and bite you when you dont have enough funds to pay premium for a player (Santana) that actually deserves it.

2008-01-29 14:01:13
152.   ToyCannon
HQ Scouting Report:
2. Deolis Guerra RHP…..18…..2005 FA (Venezuela)
Strengths: 87-92 MPH fastball and 78-80 MPH change-up. Arm action. Repeating ¾ slot. Tall/projectable frame
Weaknesses: Rotation of 74-75 MPH curveball. Slow to plate. Stamina (shoulder)
Comments: Tall pitcher with downward plane and sinking action to pitches. Improved his command and already is accomplished at changing speeds. Reports of him hitting 94 MPH were exaggerated, but is projectable. Will need to slow-down delivery, tighten curveball, and improve stamina (shoulder).
MLB Debut: 2010
Potential Rating: 9E
3. Phil Humber RHP…..24…..2004 (1) Rice
Strengths: 88-93 MPH two-seam fastball, 76-80 MPH curveball, and 81-84 MPH sinking change-up. Command. Drop-and-drive delivery, with high ¾ slot. Athletic/projectable frame
Weaknesses: Command of 82-84 MPH split-fingered fastball. Stamina (elbow)
Comments: Strong/athletic pitcher hasn't dominated since TJS in 2005 and now projects to an inning eater. Gains deception from drop-and-drive delivery and throws four pitches with precision. High HR/9 was uncharacteristic and will need keep ball low as he pitches more to contact.
2008 MLB Role: Number five starter
Potential Rating: 8C
5. Kevin Mulvey RHP…..23…..2006 (2) Villanova
Team (LG) W-L ERA IP CMD K/9 oppBA
============== === ==== ==== === ==== =====
Binghamton (EL) 11-10 3.32 151.2 2.6 6.5 252
New Orleans (PCL) 1-0 0.00 6.0 - 4.5 095
MLE 12-10 3.72 157.2 2.3 5.6 263
Strengths: 87-91 MPH two and four-seam fastballs, 84-87 MPH cut-fastball, 83-85 MPH slider, and 75-79 MPH change-up. Command. Arm action. Athletic/projectable frame. Aggressiveness
Weaknesses: Rotation of 71-72 MPH curveball. Strikeout rate
Comments: Contact pitcher who subtracts from fastball with outstanding command, keeping hitters off-balance. Possesses good arm action and repeats delivery exceptionally well. Low strikeout rate is a cause of concern and may need to improve curveball rotation to give hitters something on a different plane.
2008 MLB Role: Spot starter/middle reliever
Potential Rating: 7B
2008-01-29 14:01:52
153.   Suffering Bruin
Or, you know, you could just ask Toy Cannon.
2008-01-29 14:02:28
154.   Xeifrank
143. Probably close, might throw in Withrow instead of one of the other pitchers.
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 14:03:44
155.   CanuckDodger
Actually, IMO, a package of Ethier, McDonald, Elbert and Meloan beats the heck out of Gomez, Pelfry, Guerra, and Mulvey. Guerra is the only player I would have cared about keeping, were I a Mets fan. Maybe Gomez is a victim of being rushed, but I'm like BA's Jim Callis: I don't quite see what the fuss is about with Gomez. Pelfry has never been able to develop an effective breaking ball, and his fastball is completely straight. Mulvey is a 4th or 5th starter down the line, at best.
2008-01-29 14:04:30
156.   Suffering Bruin
Not sure this is really robbery when the Met's are in negotiation for a 7 year deal.

Yeah, there's that.

2008-01-29 14:04:42
157.   ToyCannon
151
It would be troubling to me if they wouldn't give someone like Miggy a contract like that. I would have to agree with Canuck on this one and I'm not concerned they didn't want to commit so much of their resources to a pitcher even if he is the best pitcher in baseball.
Of course it is possible that Santana just didn't want to come to LA and that McCourt was willing to do a deal. We will never know. I'm was just guessing, doesn't mean I'm right or even close to the truth.
2008-01-29 14:06:05
158.   regfairfield
150 True, but I think strikeouts are by far the most important thing for a minor league pitcher. It seems like control guys with amazing strike out to walks get pounded when they reach the bigs (Andy Sonnasstine is the latest example of this). I don't have any data to back this up though, so I'd love it if someone proved me wrong.
2008-01-29 14:06:06
159.   ToyCannon
155
I agree it beats it, just couldn't come up with anything else close to it.
2008-01-29 14:07:37
160.   paranoidandroid
What is never revealed or discussed about long term contracts is the insurance the team takes out on that player.

How much is the insurance and does it cover the whole contract or just a portion? You never have numbers to evaluate what type of risk is really being taken on a six or seven year contract.

If a Johan gets injured in the first year of a big contract, how much is recovered and how much did the insurance cost? That has to be taken into account and we NEVER get to know that very important and relevant information. Why is it such a secret?

2008-01-29 14:07:48
161.   CanuckDodger
155 -- My mistake: they got Humber rather than Pelfry. I'm not a Humber fan either. Loss of fastball velocity since college has reduced his projected ceiling from a top of the rotation guy to a #3 or #4.
2008-01-29 14:09:38
162.   ToyCannon
Good luck with getting insurance on a deal longer then 3 years for a pitcher.
2008-01-29 14:12:19
163.   JoeyP
If the Dodgers had a strict budget, then I'd at least understand why they wouldnt pay Santana or an A-Rod what they want.

However, I know that the Dodgers will end up spending 100+mils in salary for 09,10,11, and knowing that at least a portion of it will be dispersed on crapply PVL, instead of a Johan Santana is very sad.

Every contract brings some risk. But at least in this risk, there is a significant upside of a pitcher being the very best in baseball.

2008-01-29 14:12:21
164.   bhsportsguy
136 Here is an evaluation of the prospects that the Mets reportedly are trading to the Twins for Santana. (Age as of Opening Day 2008) Rankings are from 2008 Baseball America Prospect Guide.

1. RHP Deolis Guerra, 18 (BA 2). Guerra is the best prospect in the deal, originally signed out of Venezuela for $700K, he has a big frame, 6'5" but still has only 178 professional innings pitched under his belt. He reached the FSL at the very young age of 17 during his first season and continued there last year, the Twins will probably continue to watch his progress slowly and take advantage of the 3 more years they have until they have to protect him.
2. Kevin Mulvey, RHP, 22 (BA 4). 2nd round pick in 2006, pitched college ball at Villanova. He was the Mets' second best pitching prospect. Mulvey spent most of his second pro season in the Eastern League, he projects to be a 3-4 starter, does well against righties. He could start at AAA or challenge for a bottom of the rotation spot.
3. Philop Humber, RHP, 25 (BA 7). 1st round pick in 2004, He had a TJ surgery in 2005 and he has not been able to get his fastball up to the mid-nineties like he did at Rice. Best curveball in the organization but will that be good enough in the AL. Projects to be a back of the rotation guy.
4. Carlos Gomez, OF, 22 (BA 3), Signed out of the DR in 2002. No power, 19 home runs in over 1500 minor league plate appearances, 2 in 135 MLB plate appearances, scouts do think he has a chance to have average power due to his bat speed. The righthanded Gomez, does have very good speed, (154 minor league SB) and he plays a very good CF with a good arm. He is coming off a broken hamate bone in his left hand, so his hitting may well be impacted while that recovers. His strikeout to walk ratio, is over 3-1 the wrong way.

2008-01-29 14:12:55
165.   Marty
As Ratso Rizzo would say "That's not a good way to pick up insurance"
2008-01-29 14:13:50
166.   Xeifrank
I am keeping a spreadsheet of all of the outfielders age 25 and younger who have a 2008 ZIPS Projection (neutral park adjusted), that has a similarity score for every player based on three offensive stats HR/AB, K/AB and BB/AB, so it's not taking into consideration things like defense, age, speed and which outfield position the player plays, it's just a pure offensive statistical similarity score (those three stats). For Gomez his three nearest similarity scores came out to be. So please take this with a grain of salt.

1) Hankerd (Arizona)
2) Pridie (Tampa Bay)
3) McCutchen (Pittsburgh)

just for funnzies here are Matt Kemps.

1) Lind (Toronto)
2) Lis (Minnesota)
3) Pie (ChC)

vr, Xei

2008-01-29 14:15:05
167.   underdog
IMO the Twins should've held out for Martinez, or no deal. But given it's a walk year for Santana, hard to gauge how much leverage they had. They likely asked for Martinez, anyway, and the Mets said no, and so on. Again, Santana on the Dodgers, that would be neat, Santana locked up for 7 years and 150 million, Dodgers losing top prospects for what could be a couple of good years, not so neat. I see both sides on that one, but that's where I stand, and as noted above, we don't even know what Santana's feelings on going to LA were in the first place.
2008-01-29 14:15:22
168.   regfairfield
166 That's a really interesting mix of a near nothing guy, rule five dross, and a top prospect.
2008-01-29 14:23:48
169.   regfairfield
Santana reportedly holding out for 7/140.

http://www.metsblog.com/2008/01/29/buzz-santana-rejected-five-year-twins-offer/

2008-01-29 14:33:46
170.   Eric Enders
Even Fernando Martinez doesn't compare to the guys the Twins wanted from the Dodgers, because while his ceiling's high, he's in the low minors and still raw enough that there's a significant chance of him flaming out entirely. The Dodger guys have passed that point by now.
2008-01-29 14:37:53
171.   Suffering Bruin
Countdown to Bill Plaschke writing that the McCourts "could've had a World Series, instead of a lot of maybes."

In 4...3...2...

2008-01-29 14:38:09
172.   bhsportsguy
170 Can someone at least post a link to any published report that the Dodgers were ever involved (even from the Twins) in a potential deal for Santana?

Certainly the Dodgers could have put together a better package but I never heard Santana say he would be willing to go to LA or the West Coast.

2008-01-29 14:38:24
173.   Eric Enders
One wonders about the Twins' scouting lately, what with this trade combined with picking fifth-round talent Ben Revere in the first round of the '07 draft.
2008-01-29 14:38:59
174.   JoeyP
169--20mils a year doesnt sound that bad for the best pitcher in baseball.
2008-01-29 14:40:18
175.   Suffering Bruin
174 Yeah, but for how many years?
2008-01-29 14:40:21
176.   cargill06
how come yesterday even shunned me like the village idiot when i said the dodgers should make a run at johan now everyone is upset they didn't try to make a move?
2008-01-29 14:40:25
177.   regfairfield
174 Yeah, I'd be overjoyed if the Dodgers pulled him off the free agent market for that.
2008-01-29 14:41:26
178.   Bob Timmermann
176
We're a fickle bunch.

Except when it comes to Juan Pierre.

2008-01-29 14:42:34
179.   bhsportsguy
176 Actually its different people being upset.
2008-01-29 14:42:52
180.   Xeifrank
176. are we upset? I'm not.
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 14:42:54
181.   cargill06
if they don't agree on an extension in the next couple days is the trade void?
2008-01-29 14:43:02
182.   Suffering Bruin
172 http://tinyurl.com/2qwjl7

FWIW. Which may not have been much even when it was posted in September.

2008-01-29 14:43:50
183.   Xeifrank
I'm not happy the Mets didn't give up more, but not unhappy that the Dodgers didn't trade our top prospects for him and get saddled with a 7 year deal. vr, Xei
2008-01-29 14:44:09
184.   regfairfield
176 You offered way more than the Mets did, but if we gave up a similar amount of talent for Johan, and hadn't of just blown a ton of money on Kuroda, I'd be overjoyed.

Right now, I just don't know if McCourt can support a 135 million dollar payroll.

2008-01-29 14:44:50
185.   Xeifrank
181. if the Mets don't sign him he gets traded to Baltimore. :) vr, Xei
2008-01-29 14:46:20
186.   Humma Kavula
172 I recall the rumors being Kemp-Kershaw for Santana, but obviously, that didn't happen. Maybe I'm a Dodger fanboy, but I'd rather have Kemp and Kershaw than any of the four players the Mets gave up (by a lot), so the fact that it didn't happen makes me think that that rumor wasn't real.
2008-01-29 14:46:30
187.   LAT
I, for one, am glad the Dodgers stayed away from Santana. Six or seven years for one player is just too long. Ask any Giant fan how they feel about Zito's contract one year into it. And while Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens for six or seven years in their prime would have been a great deal, nine out of ten times a contract of such duration winds up hobbling a team. In additon, I would not have wanted to see one player tie up $125-150 million. I am tired of paying for management's bad deals in the way of increased ticket prices.
2008-01-29 14:47:46
188.   Xeifrank
187. Well, Santana is no Zito. But I here you.
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 14:48:09
189.   fanerman
176 I'm glad we didn't have to give up Kemp and Kershaw. I probably wouldn't have minded the multi-year deal so much. We've wasted more money on far far worse talent. But who knows if the Dodgers were even in the running. And if they were, it looks like another case of asking the Dodgers for more and another team for less.
2008-01-29 14:48:47
190.   scareduck
103 - this wouldn't be the Pilgrim, would it? My wife was involved in a student film that shot on that vessel. Gorgeous old boat.
2008-01-29 14:48:53
191.   Humma Kavula
I am tired of paying for management's bad deals in the way of increased ticket prices.

That is not what is driving up Dodger ticket prices. I can bellyache about the increases, too, but it would appear that ticket prices were underpriced.

2008-01-29 14:48:54
192.   silverwidow
now everyone is upset they didn't try to make a move?

I'm certainly not "upset." Our young players trump everything the Twins got.

2008-01-29 14:49:13
193.   Bob Timmermann
I think the Dodgers would be better off acquiring Adam Vinatieri.
2008-01-29 14:50:15
194.   cargill06
187 in 2010 if you're only paying $20 for santana (assuming at 30 he still is domanint) that deal is amazing, by than top teir pitchers will be making upwards of $30 a year
2008-01-29 14:50:17
195.   regfairfield
187 I really wish I had Eric Ender's thoughts on this matter saved so I could just copy paste it in these matters. Point is, the worst giant contract ever given out to an actual elite pitcher was Kevin Brown's, and all he did was be one of the best pitchers in baseball for three and a half years, then got dealt for a decent talent haul.
2008-01-29 14:50:26
196.   Disabled List
176 Everyone here is marveling at how much less the Mets got Santana for, and grumbling how unfair these darn other teams are when they want to trade with us.
2008-01-29 14:50:52
197.   cargill06
194 maybe 2011 for $30 mil FA pitchers
2008-01-29 14:50:58
198.   Suffering Bruin
190 Wow, small world! No, the Pilgrim was next door to the Spirit of Dana Point which is the boat we were on. Both boats are beautiful but if I had to take one or the other, I'd take the Pilgrim.
2008-01-29 14:51:22
199.   Xeifrank
What I question about the Santana trade, is why did the Twins feel such a pressing need to trade him for such low ceiling talent? They have a pretty good team, a nice offense and with Santana, Nathan and a healthy Liriano a pretty good pitching staff/bullpen. Why not keep Santana and try to make the playoffs. I know the AL Central is tough with Detroit and Cleveland, but the Twins aren't THAT far behind those two teams. Plus don't they get one or two draft picks for Santana when he leaves via free agency? Just some thoughts.
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 14:53:12
200.   cargill06
my guess was wrong the mets went from 9-2 to 5-2 to winning the NL pennant, i have a feeling it will get lower once the trade becomes offical
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-01-29 14:53:21
201.   scareduck
184 - ask anybody in baseball in 2009 whether they can support a $139M payroll. I for one am expecting one hell of a recession.
2008-01-29 14:53:45
202.   Suffering Bruin
196 Because it is unfair! There is an insidious conspiracy afoot and it's been afootin' for many moons now. Teams ask the Dodgers for the sky, only to peddle with some other squad for less. They're asking for the good china while quietly dealing the IKEA flatware. It's a conspiracy, I tell you! And no, my post here is not being affected by lack of sleep or food, why do you ask?

(pause)

Conspiracy, I tell you.

2008-01-29 14:53:51
203.   regfairfield
199 The only player they have that will definately be above average offensively is Joe Mauer. They can't compete with the Tigers and the Indians with that.
2008-01-29 14:54:06
204.   Jon Weisman
Canuck:

Breaking Bad post:

http://weblogs.variety.com/season_pass/2008/01/breaking-bad-la.htmla

2008-01-29 14:54:39
205.   fanerman
195 So you don't have much of a problem with a 7-year deal for Johan?
2008-01-29 14:55:55
206.   regfairfield
205 Nope. 7/140 is a bargain. Even if he loses it half way through the contract he's an irreplaceable player for four years. That's priceless in my opinion.
2008-01-29 14:57:06
207.   scareduck
That link for people who want to get there:

http://weblogs.variety.com/season_pass/2008/01/breaking-bad-la.html

2008-01-29 14:58:20
208.   ToyCannon
207
Thanks
2008-01-29 14:59:06
209.   ToyCannon
206
Maybe you could write about it.
2008-01-29 14:59:11
210.   Bob Timmermann
204
"Breaking Bad" is different. And not in a "John From Cincinnati" sort of way.
2008-01-29 14:59:18
211.   Xeifrank
203. Almost, but not quite

Morneau is well above league average.
Cuddyer is league average and Delmon Young probably will be shortly. Still, not a bad team. vr, Xei

2008-01-29 14:59:23
212.   Eric Enders
Morneau will definitely be above average offensively.
2008-01-29 14:59:40
213.   Jon Weisman
195 -

Something I once wrote ... Kevin Brown had:

Three full seasons with ERA+ of 143 and 169 and 169 (1999, 2000, 2003)
115 innings with an ERA+ of 150 (2001)
One really bad year (2002)
Traded for Jeff Weaver and Yhency Brazoban, who gave the Dodgers ERA+ of 102 and 165 in 2004
Then both those guys fell off in 2005 - Weaver was average, Brazoban less so.

So in the seven years, you have what I would call 3 1/2 outstanding seasons, one very good season and one average season.

2008-01-29 15:00:59
214.   D4P
204
The "a" on the end of your link messes it up.

I'll be watching the 2nd episode of BB tonight. I'm looking forward to it, as I liked the first.

2008-01-29 15:02:03
215.   regfairfield
212 He barely was last year, he had 121 OPS+ versus a first baseman average of 116, and was 15th amongst starting first basemen in OPS. In every year but 2006, he's been in that slightly above average range.
2008-01-29 15:02:17
216.   bhsportsguy
196 I don't know if unfair is the word, I was trying to figure out how to type this out but the Dodgers have been handicapped in their recent minor league bonanza by two things. Their past history in perceived over-hyping of prospects and Ned's history with the Giants.

Any long time Dodger fan knows that the Dodgers have had their share of minor league phenoms who did not pan out when they made the majors. And unfortunately, for about 15 or so years, they had awful drafts and mediocre international signings so they did not have a lot depth in the system. And then, finally when things are changing, and they get some talent in the system, they bring in a GM who comes from organization who thought nothing of trading prospects for veterans (and maybe not good ones at that).

And in Ned's first couple deals, he trades two highly regarded prospects for relievers.

So, teams and the media kept thinking the Dodgers will not protect their minor league booty and they will succumb to the win now strategy. So they waited, and waited, and waited, and waited.

For the next 2 years or so, observers kept thinking when will a big time prospect get dealt. But that deal never came. But writers, bloggers, analysts all wanted to believe that Ned would pull the trigger, thereby never allowing for the fact that maybe the Dodgers could make deals that did not involve their superstar prospects but could still be representable.

Hopefully, Kemp, Loney and LaRoche will become settled starters this year and Kershaw becomes the pitcher everyone thinks he will be soon. Then once that is settled, teams could reasonably ask for available younger talent and the Dodgers could respond.

But I think it took this long just to show that the Dodgers would be nobody's fool. And maybe now, someone will believe it.

2008-01-29 15:02:32
217.   ToyCannon
204
I liked it, my wife left the room but hovered in the background.
2008-01-29 15:02:54
218.   Jim Hitchcock
214 I thought it was as good, if not better, than the first. Thanks to you guys for turning me on to it.
2008-01-29 15:03:06
219.   LAT
191. Maybe so, if you are comparing them to the Yankee, Red Sox, Mets etc which have all put a meaningfully better product on the field in the last five years during which my tickets have gone up 100+%.
2008-01-29 15:04:18
220.   regfairfield
212 Cuddyer was right at league average and has the bonus of being a terrible defender, albeit one with a cannon. He joins Morneau in the "guys with one good year" club. Delmon Young actually needs to improve at some point for me to consider him a threat.
2008-01-29 15:04:49
221.   Xeifrank
Justin Morneau (1B, Age 27)

2008 ZIPS: .283/.355/.527
League Ave 1B: .275/.354/.462

vr, Xei

2008-01-29 15:05:02
222.   underdog
cargill, most posters here don't seem that upset by it at all. Some are, most aren't. If anyone's upset by anything here, I think it's that the Mets didn't have to give up more to get him.
2008-01-29 15:05:09
223.   ToyCannon
219
But you know budget has no correlation to ticket prices. Our tickets prices are what they are because that is what we will pay for them. Our budget could be 80mill and the tickets will be the same price.
2008-01-29 15:05:30
224.   CanuckDodger
204 -- Jon, my crappy computer can never access the Variety site for some reason. Could you reproduce what you wrote on the Variety site at Screen Jam? If you could, I'd really appreciate it.
2008-01-29 15:07:52
225.   Xeifrank
I'd say Morneau has had two good years and one great year. jmho. vr, Xei
2008-01-29 15:08:17
226.   wireroom
It sounds like the Twins played themselves out of a better deal by waiting too long on the Red Sox and Yank deals. I think Johan wanted to go to a flashy east coast team and the Twins got greedy when the Yanks and Sox bowed out. I doubt Pedro Martinez will ever be the pitcher he once was. I am not afraid of the Mets.
2008-01-29 15:08:31
227.   Humma Kavula
219 I'm not comparing Dodger ticket prices to anything when I say they were underpriced.

I completely agree with the idea that the Dodgers product has been... less than stellar. But last year, there was a huge increase in ticket prices, the team went 82-80, and roped in 3.8 million people. So it's no surprise that prices went up again.

Ticket prices are determined by what people are willing to pay.

2008-01-29 15:08:58
228.   D4P
224
Did you try deleting the "a" from the end of the URL Jon posted?
2008-01-29 15:08:59
229.   Xeifrank
224. The link has a typo at the end of it. Take the last 'a' out of the link.
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 15:09:20
230.   ToyCannon
220
One good year club! Seems a bit strict given how many years Justin has actually played. All of the sudden he already has a ceiling?
2008-01-29 15:11:53
231.   regfairfield
225 Yeah, pretty much covers it. Until he puts up another great season he's way overrated.
2008-01-29 15:12:15
232.   Jon Weisman
224 - Done.
2008-01-29 15:12:59
233.   regfairfield
230 Four years, one great one. It's not a ceiling, but he's certainly not guaranteed to do anything impressive next year.
2008-01-29 15:13:10
234.   Jon Weisman
CanuckDodger's computer has a history of weakness. It's not my bad link causing it.
2008-01-29 15:13:20
235.   LAT
219. Unfortunatly you are correct. But it would be nice to see a team that went somewhere in the post season so I don't feel like a sucker every year.

When I got my ticket invoice I was good and annoyed at the increased cost. But it passed. When I had to pay for them at the deadline my frustration returned. But I re-upped, putting my season tickets on my credit card so I could get the miles. Again it passed. Today the credit card bill comes and I am pissed again. It will pass. I suppose the moral is pay early and with cash. But I'm supposed to feel good about my season tickets and with each passing season the pleasure is deminishing.

2008-01-29 15:14:51
236.   Bob Timmermann
235
If you want to feel better, invest in Pirates season tickets.
2008-01-29 15:16:49
237.   CanuckDodger
228,229 -- Like I said, I can NEVER access Variety, even by Googling it. There are other sites my computer won't go to as well, like eBay. I would say it's a big mystery, but when one's computer is only slightly better than a Commmodore 64, I suppose these things are going to happen.
2008-01-29 15:17:45
238.   Humma Kavula
235 Ah, complaining. Yes, that I completely understand, trust me. I am very annoyed by the ticket price increase.

So annoyed that I reupped.

Here is one data point that suggests that we might be nearing an end to the ticket price increases:

We sit in the 2+2 section in the loge. We've sat there since 2004. Each year, we try to get an upgrade. So far, the best we've been able to do is to move from one side of our bad section to the other side. This year, we were able to upgrade by two full sections.

Now, was this chance? Did the guy getting the upgrade just get luckier this year? Or were there fewer people opting for the 2+2 package, making better seats available for us?

I don't know the answers here, but it may be that a lot of people said enough's enough and opting for fewer games or other forms of entertainment.

2008-01-29 15:19:51
239.   cargill06
the mets rotation looked so bad 24 hours ago, compare top 4's, Sanatana, Maine, Pedro, Perez vs. Penny, Lowe, Billingsley Kuroda. Huge edge NYM, and line-up huge edge NYM
2008-01-29 15:19:52
240.   CanuckDodger
232 -- Thanks.
2008-01-29 15:21:23
241.   Xeifrank
reg, by your standards the Dodgers don't have any good hitters if they need to put up two great years. I guess you could argue for Kent, but we all know he doesn't have another great year left in him.
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 15:21:36
242.   D4P
237
Commodore 65...?
2008-01-29 15:22:28
243.   cargill06
scary good good bull-pen too, dodgers had to try to do anything to pull the trigger. like i said before in the larger markets you could play for one year at a time, you have the best pitcher in baseball with 2 or 3 years left in his prime, it's a shame they let this get away
2008-01-29 15:22:36
244.   Kevin Lewis
I would be okay with the contract for Santana, but it is the rumored asking price that seems ridiculous. My guess is that it all was a rumor, and I am beginning to wonder if the Dodgers were even in the conversation for very long. Did Santana even want to come out here?
2008-01-29 15:23:20
245.   JimBilly4
As the one who actually went to the Pick-A-Seat event, I will say there were not a lot of options for upgrading 2+2. The only seats I was willing to switch to were the 4 Humma refers to. Everything else seemed not worth giving up what we had.

The previous year we jumped over an aisle and down to Row G (Row F is the bottom of 2+2_.

Years previous to that the Dodger seat upgrade system was a disaster and I have no idea what was actually available.

I guess what I am saying is that I would not draw conclusions as to demand from my visit to the seat upgrading. I would love it if demand dropped and prices stabilized. I am just not sure they are.

2008-01-29 15:24:15
246.   cargill06
no one anwered my question on post 181 , does anyone know the answer?
2008-01-29 15:27:16
247.   Bob Timmermann
246
If Santana doesn't agree on a contract extension, reports say that the deal is off.
2008-01-29 15:30:42
248.   ToyCannon
235
That I understand. I think we all go through the process.

238
Sometimes it is dumb luck. When I got my 2+2 in 2004 I ended up in the 3rd row. During the 1st game the people behind me wondered how I got the seats. They had been trying to move up for several years and were quite irritated that I had gotten the seats. Turns out the people in my seats had just given them up before my phone call.

245
Are you saying the reserve 2+2 only goes down to row F? In the loge it is good all the way to A, at least in my section.

2008-01-29 15:30:44
249.   cargill06
i know there are many hurdles, but if a extension is not agreed upon the dodgers must throw their hat in the ring, considering the relatively low asking price the mets had to give up
2008-01-29 15:31:08
250.   Bluebleeder87
38

It's just weird how that all falls into place, specially if you look at it from a timeline stand point. weird, just weird.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-01-29 15:31:43
251.   ToyCannon
246
I thought common sense had answered the question.
2008-01-29 15:33:08
252.   cargill06
251 sometimes i don't have much of that.
2008-01-29 15:34:04
253.   kngoworld
251 That was a true laugh out loud moment.
2008-01-29 15:34:30
254.   Kevin Lewis
249

Yes, considering the offer being reported, we could easily beat it without giving up Kemp or Kershaw. If it falls through, than Ned can work on that 10% deal he mentioned earlier

2008-01-29 15:36:14
255.   cargill06
you would think a deal like Kershaw and D. Yound would get the deal done for sure, you wouldn't have to give up any of your potential '08 regulars
2008-01-29 15:36:34
256.   Xeifrank
251. I was going to make the same comment, but figured I'd leave it to you. :)
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 15:38:55
257.   ToyCannon
Remember if the deal falls through it is because the Mets couldn't come to an agreement with Johan. Why do you think the Dodgers would outspend the Mets or that Johan wants to become a Dodger?
2008-01-29 15:39:33
258.   Xeifrank
I'm not sure the Dodgers would sign Santana to a 7 year $140 million (or more) dollar contract, even if we didn't give anybody up.
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 15:40:30
259.   Jon Weisman
239 - Santana, Maine, Pedro, Perez vs. Penny, Lowe, Billingsley, Kuroda

First of all, I'd like to see more than four pitchers measured for each side before I decide who has the better rotation.

But even with these four, is it a huge edge? Maine isn't spectacular, Pedro's health is uncertain. Even Perez is inconsistent.

Santana gives them the edge, and I think most people would like to have him in some scenario. You don't have to feel like everyone's against you if we just don't happen to agree with your Santana-at-all-costs mentality.

2008-01-29 15:41:47
260.   fanerman
243 Nobody knows if Johan even wanted to come to the Dodgers, but talks didn't seem to get very far. It really didn't seem like we were anywhere close to making a deal. I could understand if you were in such a panic if the Dodgers came close and didn't get it, but it really looks like we were never in it to begin with.

You're talking like it's the end of the world if the Mets get Santana. It's really not. And there is such a thing as too high a price, even for Johan. There's no need to panic. The Dodgers are in position to be contenders for a long time, not just 2008.

And maybe Kershaw will be a Dodger by the end of 2008, anyway.

2008-01-29 15:43:15
261.   Disabled List
249 That's not gonna happen. If the deal falls through, it'll be because the Mets, flush with expected profits from their new stadium, ended up balking at Santana's asking price.

Given that, there's no way Frank McCourt is gonna swoop in and beat the Mets' last offer.

2008-01-29 15:47:04
262.   Humma Kavula
The Mets getting Santana so cheap is just karma evening out the Lastings Milledge and Scott Kazmir deals. No team can get the fuzzy end of the lollipop forever.
2008-01-29 15:48:11
263.   silverwidow
Billingsley is better than any Met not named Santana. And he's not even our ace yet.
2008-01-29 15:48:34
264.   Bob Timmermann
262
The Kansas City Royals beg to differ.
2008-01-29 15:50:00
265.   silverwidow
263 *Met starter
2008-01-29 15:50:25
266.   cargill06
259 , i don't think people are against me because of the santana must come, i think people are against me in this particular issue, because everyone is. and jon i think you're terribely mistaken, get ready to read every pre-season publication that ranks ML pitching staffs the Met's will be higher in 90% of the publications
2008-01-29 15:51:00
267.   CanuckDodger
255 -- The Dodgers aren't giving up Kershaw, nor should they. I'll repeat what I said yesterday: over the next six or seven years, Santana is a worse risk that Kershaw. And most of us DO care about the next six or seven years, while your interest seems limited to 2008.
2008-01-29 15:51:03
268.   Eric Enders
If you're just looking at the first four in the rotation, I think the Dodgers beat the Mets by quite a bit. The Mets have one great pitcher and three question marks. The Dodgers have three good pitchers and one question mark.
2008-01-29 15:51:46
269.   Humma Kavula
266 The thing is, nobody is "against you." People disagree with you. It's not the same thing.
2008-01-29 15:53:49
270.   underdog
259 - I'm also not convinced that the Mets bullpen is all that much better than the Dodgers', if at all. Their lineup is better, has been better, but with the Dodgers young players plus clearly a stronger farm system at this point, how much longer will that be true either. In short, yes, the Mets are good. I don't quite understand the fear or love affair cargill has with them, either. But I guess we'll see.
2008-01-29 15:53:58
271.   Jim Hitchcock
237 Are you saying you're using a Commodore 128?
2008-01-29 15:54:00
272.   Eric Enders
266 You seem to ascribe a lot of baseball knowledge to people who don't actually possess it. Namely, Vegas oddsmakers and the people who write pre-season baseball magazines. Why do you care what those people think? You should care about winning instead.

Granted, oddsmakers do study the game quite a but, but as we discussed the other day, their goal is NOT to figure out what the best teams are, but to figure out what bettors THINK the best teams are.

2008-01-29 15:55:56
274.   Humma Kavula
268 Kuroda is a question mark. What will he do?

Penny is a semi-colon. He'll probably be good; however, he might not.

Billingsley is an exclamation point. Didja see what Chad did!

Lowe is an interrobang. Who woulda thought that Lowe woulda been such a great pickup?!

2008-01-29 15:56:43
275.   Jon Weisman
266 - Where did I say that Santana does not give the Mets a great rotation? Nowhere.

The Dodgers had one of the best rotations in the NL before this trade (if it goes through) - miles ahead of the Mets. Santana will help the Mets leapfrog the Dodgers, but that doesn't mean the Dodgers don't still have a good rotation.

2008-01-29 15:56:59
276.   cargill06
272 well to be fair everyone on this site has extreme dodger bias, if i went by everyone on this website's opinion i'd get extremely weighted dodger points of view.

and what i was trying to say is i know it's not personal or people don't value my opinions just in this issue everyone disagrees with me. it doesn't bother me that's the primary basis behind a discussion

2008-01-29 15:57:11
277.   Jason in Canada
We just got the Tandy 1000's with tape deck drives up here in Canada. Please be patient with us people. And thanks Jon for rarely putting photos in your posts. They take all day on our 28K modems.
2008-01-29 15:57:40
278.   fanerman
266 The last thing I'd do is read every publication. I don't trust every publication. The people here are much more logical and give better analysis. Really. Is ESPN or other MSM ever right in their analysis? You should read Fire Joe Morgan more often.

I really think you're overreacting and following the hype machine of whoever's going to be hyping this trade.

2008-01-29 15:58:18
279.   cargill06
275 never said the dodgers don't have a good rotation, depending on schmidt's health their rotation as a whole is one of the best, but just comparing the mets top 4 most everyone would take the NYM most people wold think it's not close
2008-01-29 15:59:10
280.   fanerman
279 How do you know most people are right?
2008-01-29 15:59:12
281.   Bob Timmermann
I found CanuckDodger's computer:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2143/2200700647_dcc56b654f.jpg

2008-01-29 16:01:40
282.   Jason in Canada
I have an extremely weighted Dodger point of view. They are my favorite sports team afterall!

274 interrobang You learn something new everyday, thanks!

2008-01-29 16:01:49
283.   Xeifrank
280. and who are these people? Are they people that Bob met on his European vacation, or people that shop at Wal*Mart?
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 16:02:01
284.   Jon Weisman
275 - And I never said you said the Dodgers don't have a good rotation.

You said that the Mets rotation has a huge edge over the Dodgers. Just because most people would take the Mets rotation over the Dodgers doesn't mean it's a huge edge. That's all I've been trying to say.

2008-01-29 16:02:26
285.   D4P
I don't support headlines such as "Mets Win Santana Sweepstakes."

When I think of winning a sweepstakes, I think of people paying me a hundred million bucks, not the other way around.

2008-01-29 16:03:17
286.   natepurcell
So i have this legal issue and I need some opinions.

Saturday night I received a parking ticket. The time on the ticket says 8:40 PM.

The address where I parked at, 614 N 3rd Ave, is right under a city permit sign that states you need a permit to park between M-F 7am-5pm. Any other time, it is freely available.

I was puzzled to why I received the ticket. Either way, I sent it in for a hearing request to fight it.

Today, I went to the address to take pictures of the where I parked, the sign, and the address of the house. I soon realized that the officer who issued the ticket wrote down the address for across the street of 615 N 3rd Ave.

The other side of the street has a 24 hour controlled parking zone.

So basically, at the end of the month, the officer blatantly wrote down the address of the side of the street where the citation would be deemed appropriate.

This is really bugging me how someone could be so unethical and immoral. How should I approach this at the hearing?

2008-01-29 16:03:43
287.   GMac In The 909
283 They talk a lot.
2008-01-29 16:04:03
288.   Jason in Canada
Here is my new computer. Right out of the box.

http://tinyurl.com/3b92d5

2008-01-29 16:05:52
289.   CanuckDodger
137 -- Well, "slightly better than a Commodore 64" may have been hyperbole. It's something from the mid-90's anyway. I THINK it is known as a "486." Honestly, I'm probably about the least computer-savvy person using the internet. I prefer pen-and-paper, but I suppose an enterprise like Dodger Thoughts would get a bit dodgy logistically if we were all sending messages to each other by carrier pigeons, or by what might be only a bit better, the post office.
2008-01-29 16:07:48
290.   CanuckDodger
289 -- That was a response to #271, not #137. My bad.
2008-01-29 16:08:58
291.   Jason in Canada
Canuck, if you ever need to pop over to Pt. Coquitlam for a quick training session around windows 95 and word perfect, I'd be honored to help you. You just might have to answer a few questions I have around Dodger prospects and the rule 5 draft...
2008-01-29 16:09:01
292.   Disabled List
284 Just because most people would take the Mets rotation over the Dodgers doesn't mean it's a huge edge.

Doesn't mean it's an edge at all, actually. Eric is right in 272 . The commenters on this site offer more intelligent and informed baseball analysis than people who write pre-season magazines, and definitely more than the public at large (the wagering opinions of whom dictate how Vegas oddsmakers set their lines).

When I arrived at DT in 2003, I still thought RBIs were a terrific measure of run production. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that now.

2008-01-29 16:09:13
293.   El Lay Dave
274 Love the word. I do prefer the two-character combination you used in your example rather than the obscure and obscuring "‽" that I find hard to read and decipher.
2008-01-29 16:09:20
294.   fanerman
289 Do you seriously use a 486? I read about that in history class. Just kidding. But 486's are more like early 90's. Which is still very very old. It wouldn't cost too much to get a computer 10 times as fast. But if it can do Dodger Thoughts, that's probably enough, right?
2008-01-29 16:10:17
295.   underdog
Also, if you read this blog a lot, and the comments herein, over the past few years, you'd notice that while we're all Dodger supporters, I would argue that most of us are not blindly so. In fact some of us are more likely to be critical or skeptical of the team and/or management, than blindly supportive. Isn't that fair to say?
2008-01-29 16:10:18
296.   regfairfield
276 There are several people here, myself included, that analyze the Dodgers like they would any other team. We may know more about the Dodgers than any other organization, but I certainly don't give anyone credit based on their issue.

241 If the Dodgers had someone that had put up one great year over the last four, I would say that they weren't guaranteed to be above average. That's it. The point was that Morneau is not guaranteed to be that much better than the average first baseman.

If you wanted me to guarantee who on the Dodgers will be above average for their position, the only person on the Dodgers the only person that I can confidently say that about is Russ, but that's because there's a ton wiggle room in our lineup. The only person that I'm sure will be below average is Pierre.

2008-01-29 16:10:43
297.   Jim Hitchcock
288 Truly cutting edge!

Er, what's that box in the upper right corner?

2008-01-29 16:17:11
298.   Xeifrank
286. I don't follow. Are you saying he altered the ticket? Don't you have a copy of the original citation placed on your car? Does that have a different address on it than something that was later mailed to you? Need clarification.

vr, Xei

2008-01-29 16:18:38
299.   Jason in Canada
I have no idea. But I do remember setting the computer up in my room in the 5th grade. Those were the days when you were lucky enough to have to spend 2 days typing code into your computer before you could use a program. And if you made one little mistake...
2008-01-29 16:19:19
300.   natepurcell
298

The citation he placed on my car is of the address across the street. I was parked infront of 614 N 3rd Ave. The ticket says 615 N 3rd Ave.

The difference is the 614 side, parking was allowed at that time. The 615 side is 24 hours controlled zone.

So basically, he wrote down the wrong address on purpose to make the ticket work.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-01-29 16:19:43
301.   fanerman
298 I think Nate is saying that he parked on 614 N 3rd but the ticket says he was parked on 615 N 3rd.
2008-01-29 16:20:03
302.   natepurcell
298

I only have the original citation on my car.

2008-01-29 16:21:53
303.   Humma Kavula
298 He's implying that the officer simply wrote down the wrong address -- issuing a citation for the wrong side of the street.

My question is: how likely is it that the officer will show up at the hearing? If he won't be there, there's probably no reason to get defensive. I would probably say, "The officer got confused. I can see how it would happen -- he writes a lot of tickets and there are bound to be mistakes. But I was on the side that it's OK to park on." I'd see how that goes before I started accusing a police officer of fraud.

2008-01-29 16:21:59
304.   trainwreck
Nate, that sucks, because it is basically your word against his.
2008-01-29 16:22:18
305.   Disabled List
286 That's pretty outrageous. But just play it cool at the hearing, don't accuse the officer of anything illegal, and suggest to the judge that it was just a mistake.
2008-01-29 16:22:46
306.   natepurcell
The ticket is relatively cheap, only 50 dollars so the money aspect of it isn't something I am concerned over.

The unethical aspect of it is something that pisses me off.

2008-01-29 16:22:53
307.   Eric Enders
298 I take Nate to mean that the cop wrote a different address on the citation than the one his car was parked at. Which might be an honest mistake, or might not, but is probably unprovable anyway. It's the end of the month, which could mean it's some guy trying to cut corners filling his quota.
2008-01-29 16:23:37
308.   Jim Hitchcock
305 Just state it to the judge. You'll get it dismissed.
2008-01-29 16:23:53
309.   fanerman
303 Not knowing anything about law, I would probably do that, too. Something along the lines of "maybe he made a mistake." Then point out why you're certain you parked on that side of the street and not the other.
2008-01-29 16:24:14
310.   paranoidandroid
Rotations are important, but the health of the rotation when and if you get to the playoffs is very important.

The Mets had the best record, by far, in '06 but had major injuries to their pitching staff by time October rolled around.

The Dodgers had the advantage with pitching match-ups in the division series, or so we all thought. Then we were swept. We gave away game one to Maine and then Glavine was good in game two. Game three we couldn't hold a lead and Old Man Hernandez was good enough. Had we gotten to game four, we might have exposed Oliver and the lack of depth, but that is all moot.

The NL East looks like a dog-fight, and so does the West. I think beating up on one team within the division makes a difference getting to the playoffs, then you need a stud to ride to the LCS and WS.

The Mets have what appears to be their stud. They also had Pedro in '06. Will Johan be that guy should they get to the postseason? Who knows? Too soon to tell.

What can win the division for you is if you can handle a few teams and beat on them, like we did to the Snakes in '06. And what the Cards did to us. Without sweeping us in seven games in '06, the Cards don't win the division.

2008-01-29 16:24:33
311.   natepurcell
Should I even bring it up that the address is incorrect, or should I just show the judge the pictures of where I parked and the right sign I parked under?
2008-01-29 16:24:40
312.   CanuckDodger
291 -- A kind offer, and thanks, but you see, I kind of LIKE being a fuddy-duddy when it comes to these infernal machines, a bit out of it. Sure, it can be inconvienient at times, but it also makes me a big hit at parties, when I do things like declare, with oracular gravitas, and what ToyCannon would perhaps call "Canuck Confidence," that home computers are just a fad, and will surely go the way of the hula hoop. Either that or super-intelligent machines will kill all of us, like in Terminator.
2008-01-29 16:25:27
313.   Eric Enders
If you had any companions with you when you parked there, take them to court with you.

The cop probably just figured that most people would think it not worth their time and trouble to dispute a $50 ticket. (And if that happened to me, that would probably be correct.)

2008-01-29 16:26:50
314.   natepurcell
Which might be an honest mistake, or might not, but is probably unprovable anyway.

Looking back over the situation, there is basically no way it was an honest mistake.

2008-01-29 16:27:00
315.   Jason in Canada
Apparently if your able to move the date of the hearing to a date other than the one on the ticket, there is a great chance he won't show up and the judge would probably throw it out...
2008-01-29 16:27:36
316.   Xeifrank
300. The part I don't get then, is that you said a month later/end of the month?? he changed the ticket??

I would think it would be your word against his and that to win in traffic court you would need a witness. If no witness, take a picture of both signs, picture of the street and hope for the best. I wouldn't argue that he did it on purpose (even though he probably did), I'd argue that he made a mistake.

vr, Xei

2008-01-29 16:28:53
317.   natepurcell
313

I was by myself so that doesn't work to.

Do officers have monthly citation quotas? This is a myth that I haven't heard to be true. That is the only reason I can think of to why this happened.

2008-01-29 16:30:28
318.   fanerman
316 I think Nate got the ticket at the end of the month to begin with. The officer didn't change the ticket after he wrote it. He wrote it incorrectly in the first place.
2008-01-29 16:30:28
319.   natepurcell
[316

It happened saturday, jan 26th, which is towards the end of the month. I'm implying its the end of the month and the cop needs to fill his ticket quotas. Although I have no factual basis to believe cops actually have quotas.

2008-01-29 16:31:05
320.   fanerman
318 He or she, I should say.
2008-01-29 16:31:55
321.   natepurcell
Apparently if your able to move the date of the hearing to a date other than the one on the ticket, there is a great chance he won't show up and the judge would probably throw it out...

I want him to show up and and have him lie under oath and get all the horrible karma that will happen to him in the aftermath.

2008-01-29 16:32:08
322.   Jason in Canada
312 No problem, but one little suggestion; the whole internet comes alive when you use a monitor that shows stuff in "color". Those black and green screens can really hurt your eyes after awhile!
2008-01-29 16:32:45
323.   Xeifrank
319. No witness then bring pictures of both signs and the whole street so you can show him where exactly you parked and YES I would bring up that the officer wrote down the wrong address! vr, Xei
2008-01-29 16:33:48
324.   CanuckDodger
Nobody is entertaining the possibility that the cop might just not be very bright? A few years ago it was in the news that somebody who applied to a police academy in the U.S. was rejected for having an IQ too high for police work. The police department's rationale was that somebody too intelligent would be at high risk to leave police work for greener pastures and that would amount to a waste of the resources used to train the person in the first place.
2008-01-29 16:34:03
325.   Xeifrank
Nate, go park there again on Feb 27th and video tape the whole thing. :) vr, Xei
2008-01-29 16:34:34
326.   Jason in Canada
321 Then I think you should call ... the karma police... (drum roll)
2008-01-29 16:36:19
327.   Xeifrank
What I don't like about fighting traffic tickets (not parking), is that if you lose they threaten to not allow you to go to traffic school to get your ticket removed from your record. vr, Xei
2008-01-29 16:36:23
328.   natepurcell
325

Its still the end of the month, I should do that tonight.

324

I don't think so. He is smart enough, devious enough to put down the address for the side of the street with the controlled 24 hour zone. He's not an idiot, he's a low life.

2008-01-29 16:36:31
329.   paranoidandroid
326 I have the Karma Police on speed dial.
2008-01-29 16:37:24
330.   Kevin Lewis
my brother got worked by Pasadena parking. On our street we had three signs

the one in the middle said 2Hr Parking 9-6, but the two on the ends said 2hr parking 7-6

My brother was parked in front of the 9-6 sign, but he received a ticket at 9:30am. We took photos, sent them in, and he was denied twice. Since he lives in St. Louis, he lost that battle. Now the signs say the same thing.

2008-01-29 16:37:34
331.   Reiichi
Describe the 24 hour controlled parking zone. Is that like 2 hour parking only?
2008-01-29 16:38:02
332.   natepurcell
327

I also have a "pending" automated radar trap ticket when i was in Tempe earlier this month.

That cannot be legal somehow.

This has been a bad month. I've never gotten any kind of traffic tickets before ever and 2 BS ones within 3 weeks of each other is glorious.

2008-01-29 16:38:02
333.   fanerman
326 329 If there are people that talk in maths, they're probably us.

324 I suppose it's possible. It wouldn't really change the strategy either way, would it?

2008-01-29 16:38:51
334.   natepurcell
Describe the 24 hour controlled parking zone. Is that like 2 hour parking only?

No, its 24 hour controlled permit required zone.

West side of the street has it, east side has permit required M-F 7am-5pm.

2008-01-29 16:39:06
335.   CanuckDodger
322 -- Oh, I've had a modern, flat-screen monitor since last May. Had to get it after the old boxy monitor blew up and nearly killed me. Machines out to eliminate humans. It's the Terminator scenario, I tell you.
2008-01-29 16:42:01
336.   paranoidandroid
I got a stupid parking ticket outside Dodger Stadium on Academy in '06. They have those ever-present tree trimmers parked in an area where you used to be able to park. Somewhere along the way, they made it no parking, except for them. The signs were posted but the the bushes weren't trimmed and hid the signs, along with the giant truck machine things that look they are from Empire Strikes Back. There was ample parking there as I was early, but I parked there anyway.

I appealed the ticket with drawings and diagrams and a letter, and my appeal was rejected. I paid the dumb ticket, about $50. Last time I went to a game, someone had twisted the No Parking sign into a weird shape and it couldn't be read. Someone who probably got a ticket too. I didn't twist the sign, but I kinda wish I had the balls to do it.

2008-01-29 16:44:29
337.   LAT
Nate,

It will be difficult to beat this type of citation, especially if the officer is prepared to fabricate the facts.

That being said, why were you there? Is this a place you go often, like visiting family or girlfriend such that you would be familiar with the restrictions? If so, you can point out to the Court that you are aware of the restrictions and never would have violated them. That it wasn't a case of you accidentally parking in the wrong place. Rather than accuse the officer of getting his month end quota, I would act bewildered at how the Officer could have made such a mistake. Judges don't like it when people malign the system or throw around conspiracy theories. They hear it all the time.

The bottom line is that people who are telling the truth usually go to lengths to establish their innocence. Thus, the more evidence and more preparation you demonstrate the more likely you are to convince the Court. I would absolutely bring in pictures of the restrictions and postings on both sides of the street. Take a picture of the place you were visiting with the address clearly shown. Also, if the person you were visiting comes to Court to give testimony explaining that you were parked on the other side of the street and you visit them often (hence framiliar with the local restrictions) that may help. (You could offer the Court an affidavit from this person but that may raise some evidentiary issues.) Above all else be respectful and don't whine. Make the Court want to help you. That being said its a lot of time and hassle and sometimes its worth the $50 to avoid the aggravation and move on.

BTW, I don't think traffic officers come to Court to defend contested tickets. Only moving violations.

2008-01-29 16:44:52
338.   Kevin Lewis
336

Those trucks were there all year. Is that just where they park/store them long term?

2008-01-29 16:45:01
339.   natepurcell
so basically...

-bring in pictures
-states the address is incorrect
-tell correct address
-show pictures of correct address, spot and sign
-hope the judge dismisses it?

Do I bring up the other side is a 24 hour zone?

2008-01-29 16:45:35
340.   underdog
I once got my car towed because it was supposedly blocking part of a driveway around the corner from me. (I later found out that the people in that house call and complain routinely about such things. And of course it means more money for the DPT and the towing services so they don't mind.) Anyway, I was sure I wasn't blocking them, but of course my car was towed and gone so I couldn't take a picture of it. But I did then discover that the alleged "driveway" was not being used for cars, and in fact had a wall on either side of the opening making it basically impossible for any car not a Tata Nano to get through. I took pictures, measured the width, argued my case before an individual Dept of Parking and Traffic hearing person, who agreed it looked odd. They sent someone out there to "inspect it" (yeah right), then when we reconvened they said, "Sorry, it's a driveway, and it's your word versus our meter maid, so you're outta luck, Charlie." In short, even though I was right, I was wrong. I don't know how many people actually win those cases, frankly, but it's worth fighting for Nate. You never know, like you said, maybe the cop will show, and lie, and then get run over by a meter maid.
2008-01-29 16:47:40
341.   Kevin Lewis
I have seen six traffic cops in Pasadena writing one ticket. They are always roaming the streets, looking for their victims.
2008-01-29 16:48:44
342.   paranoidandroid
338 Those trucks are always there. There used to be a pair of tidey-whities hanging from the fence near there too, for about two seasons, but they seem to be gone now.

BTW, why do we call it a pair of underwear when there is only one?

2008-01-29 16:49:24
343.   sporky
I was once ticketed for rolling through a stop sign, when it was actually the car in front of me. How can that even happen?

I went to court, and the idiot campus policewoman showed up. It was such a foolishly implausible scenario that I think I offended the judge.

So I lost. I'm still pissed.

2008-01-29 16:50:11
344.   trainwreck
Enders is definitely right that cops have to fill up ticket quotas each month.
2008-01-29 16:51:15
345.   El Lay Dave
Isn't it the case that in Los Angeles the vast majority of parking tickets are written by parking enforcement officers who are not police officers or "cops"?

nate, I think you're toast. Most traffic referees are going to side with the officer on a he-said/she-said case. What might be persuasive is if you can construct a plausible reason why what you claim is true. For example, "that space is right below my girlfriend, Gauge's, apartment window, so I always park there."

2008-01-29 16:51:24
346.   CanuckDodger
339 -- Absolutely bring up that the other side is a 24 hour zone. It makes it more plausible to the court that the officer may have been a bit confused.
2008-01-29 16:51:52
347.   Xeifrank
Nate, yes bring up that the 24 hour zone was on the other side and you were aware of that because you go there often?? and for good karma where your DT shirt. vr, Xei
2008-01-29 16:52:22
348.   natepurcell
337

3rd ave one street to the east of 4th ave. 4th Ave is like the "Vegas Strip" of Tucson. It is where all the bars are, night life, etc for college students and other people around that age group. So needless to say, I have parked on 3rd avenue and visited establishments on 4th avenue on numerous occasions during the evening/night.

This particular time, I actually went to the Living Room, a venue because my buddy's band was playing. I was there for 2 hours and I came back to my car at 930 and saw the ticket.

That's basically it. I wasn't visiting a home I frequented but the area is a place I've been to often enough to know the restrictions and limitations of the city's parking rules.

2008-01-29 16:53:25
349.   scareduck
324 - Mencken once hypothesized the existence of a real Sherlock Holmes, imagining that if he did exist, he would necessarily be predisposed to sleuthing. Of course, the only way to make detective is to slog through the lower ranks of policedom, and it's hard to think a true genius would ever submit to such tedium. Holmes appearing as a consulting detective makes perfect sense, in that light.
2008-01-29 16:53:55
350.   Jim Hitchcock
BTW, why do we call it a pair of underwear when there is only one?

If you can answer that, please tell me why we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-01-29 16:55:10
351.   natepurcell
nate, I think you're toast. Most traffic referees are going to side with the officer on a he-said/she-said case.

Am I allowed to go at length to request the officer be brought in to testify under oath?

I want it on HIS CONSCIENCE!

2008-01-29 16:55:44
352.   CanuckDodger
346 -- Underpants are short pants, which cover two different legs, so we say "a pair of pants." Underpants do not cover the legs, except at the very top of the legs, but we say "pair of underpants" almost as an extension of the rules for pants.
2008-01-29 16:56:54
353.   El Lay Dave
344 A couple different cops told me that there is no quota, but there certainly is a normal range of tickets written per job description and that it is evaluated monthly, so those that slack off are having to make up for it late in the month.
2008-01-29 16:56:55
354.   CanuckDodger
352 -- That should have been a reply to #342.
2008-01-29 16:57:27
355.   Bob Timmermann
345
Parking tickets in the city of Los Angeles are issued by the LA City Department of Transportation.

All parking offenses in the state of California (unless you go crazy and pick up tens of thousands of dollars in fines) are civil matters.

2008-01-29 16:57:43
356.   paranoidandroid
Tickets are not fun to get, but I chalk it up to the cost of driving. A tax if you will. I speed often enough and have gone through a yellow light that was a bit more red than yellow and have not gotten a ticket.

I just think it evens out at some point. Now Nate can park illegally for a few months without getting caught, right?

2008-01-29 16:58:19
357.   Bluebleeder87
Apparently if your able to move the date of the hearing to a date other than the one on the ticket, there is a great chance he won't show up and the judge would probably throw it out...

I wouldn't trust that logic Nate, That myth is busted by yours truly.

2008-01-29 17:00:36
358.   ImprobableImpossible
Sorry,I didn't tinyurl

http://www.ticketmaster.com/seatingchart/90127/21941

2008-01-29 17:00:42
359.   paranoidandroid
Nate, the poor donut eater has moved on. He/She is so over you. He/She doesn't even get your $50. He/She has to spend his time going around and finding cars that are hiding in plain site where they aren't supposed to be.

The Karma Police have put him/her into place. Plus, the cop is going to be forever known as a he/she. That isn't going to be fun for him/her.

2008-01-29 17:02:18
360.   Xeifrank
Find out what days the officer has off and try to schedule your hearing for that day. I'm sure it's as easy as calling them up and asking. :)
vr, Xei
2008-01-29 17:03:07
361.   fanerman
Since we don't know the cop's name, we can refer to him/her as Shemale.
2008-01-29 17:03:59
362.   paranoidandroid
358 Thanks. My season ticket invoice said my tickets were $20. I suppose they are discounted $25 tickets.

I don't think I'm going to the game . If anyone wants to buy mine, you'll save $5 a ticket and all the ticketbastard fees. However, I have no idea where my seats are. Not yet anyway.

2008-01-29 17:04:22
363.   El Lay Dave
324 + 355 = parking enforcement officers are likely not smart enough to qualify for the police academy.

nate, I still think it will be hard for you to sway the referee/judge/whoever without some evidence that casts serious doubt on the officer's written testimony, that is, the facts on the ticket.

2008-01-29 17:04:33
364.   bigcpa
If you're scoring at home, drudge has it:
MCCAIN 33.8%, ROMNEY 33.3%
2008-01-29 17:05:07
365.   Humma Kavula
358 News flash: It looks like the Coliseum will play as an extreme pitchers' park.
2008-01-29 17:05:31
366.   ninjavshippo
I agree w/ aforementioned show up w/ mountain of evidence plan and be as earnest as possible w/o whining. Remember, the judge has heard it ALL, so whatever you can bring that makes you stand out from the usual person who comes to "fight" their ticket will probably endear you to the judge wiping it clear.

As far as towing/ticket stories go, my boss (a relatively green atty) recently won a suit over an illegal tow, was able to get 3x the towing cost, and now some sheriff's deputy is sitting in the tower's (towperson?) business collecting the judgment by hand. It probably wouldn't have been worth it if he wasn't an atty and couldn't have done it himself, but I gotta say, it's hard to put a price on the sense of vindication he got out of it.

2008-01-29 17:05:32
367.   ImprobableImpossible
362
I'd be interested. How many?
2008-01-29 17:06:04
368.   natepurcell
Since we don't know the cop's name, we can refer to him/her as Shemale.

I don't even know of its a man or women. The officer only put his/her last name on the ticket.

2008-01-29 17:07:51
369.   Humma Kavula
364 Will Giuliani pull out now, or will he wait a week?
2008-01-29 17:09:06
370.   El Lay Dave
365 Except that fair territory is more than 90° !

Juan Pierre might bunt a ball off the left-field fair pole.

2008-01-29 17:09:07
371.   natepurcell
I agree w/ aforementioned show up w/ mountain of evidence plan and be as earnest as possible w/o whining. Remember, the judge has heard it ALL, so whatever you can bring that makes you stand out from the usual person who comes to "fight" their ticket will probably endear you to the judge wiping it clear.

I really don't know how I can bring a mountain of evidence. I can show pictures, inform them Ive been in Tucson for 4 years, know the area well, know the city rules of the area, frequent that area basically weekly and have never received a ticket until now

other than that, I can't think of anything to turn my pile into a mountain.

2008-01-29 17:09:23
372.   trainwreck
369
On CNN, they just said they still think he will show up for the CA debate tomorrow.
2008-01-29 17:09:54
373.   Xeifrank
are we allowed to talk about the election? even with that paid ad staring us in the face?? vr, Xei
2008-01-29 17:09:54
374.   LAT
Nate,

I used to sit as a Judge Pro Tem in Santa Monica Traffic Court (moving violations and misdemeanors, not parking citations). I can tell you the citing officer doesn't care about you or your citation and if you get it thrown out he will never even know. I am not that familiar with parking tickets but they are heard by referees, not judges and I don't think you can require the officer to appear. Also with regard to your list in 339 a witness on your behalf, if there is one, wouldn't hurt.

2008-01-29 17:10:36
375.   paranoidandroid
367 I have two tickets. You can email me at: paranoidandroidbruce@gmail.com
2008-01-29 17:11:21
376.   LAT
Nate,

I used to sit as a Judge Pro Tem in Santa Monica Traffic Court (moving violations and misdemeanors, not parking citations). I can tell you the citing officer doesn't care about you or your citation and if you get it thrown out he will never even know. I am not that familiar with parking tickets but they are heard by referees, not judges and I don't think you can require the officer to appear. Also with regard to your list in 339 a witness on your behalf, if there is one, wouldn't hurt.

2008-01-29 17:13:40
377.   natepurcell
Also with regard to your list in 339 a witness on your behalf, if there is one, wouldn't hurt.

Like a character witness or a witness who was with me? If its the latter, then I have no one since I drove myself and met up with people at the venue.

2008-01-29 17:15:36
378.   ninjavshippo
376 - Hey LAT, out of curiosity, how does one get to be a Judge Pro Tem?
2008-01-29 17:15:42
379.   trainwreck
377
Or did you? ; )
2008-01-29 17:16:11
380.   paranoidandroid
377 Would the Ghost of Carlos Perez count as your witness? He is known to be many places you didn't realize he was at until you whisper his name.
2008-01-29 17:16:25
381.   ToyCannon
Pay the fine, you might win if you do everything LAT says but also might lose and you will be ticked off over losing after putting in all that effort that you will never be the same man.
Beware the man with dark eyes after you leave the premises once your defeated. They will try to convert you, and you will be an easy target as your anger at the system gnaws deep into your gut.
2008-01-29 17:16:49
382.   kngoworld
I once received a speeding ticket right after sitting at a red light and making a left hand turn. I was pulled over less then 100 feet away from the spot the car was sitting during the red light. There was no physical way my car could have been driving the speed the cop posted after the short distance of driving. I showed up to court to fight the ticket with large pictures and maps, along with a couple of elaborate physics formulas (I was taking a physics class in High School at the time). After giving my 15 minute speech to the judge, the cop had no real explanation besides I had my speed gun checked on this date. The Judge's response to me was, "Kid, it looks like you put forth a lot of effort here, although, I have no idea what your formulas mean and do not understand them. You could be lying and I would not be able to tell the difference. I rule in favor of the Police Officer." He later ruled that I had to pay a fine but because of the effort nothing went on my record. At the time, the money was much more important to me then my record. I was not a happy person for a few days.

Good luck Nate.

2008-01-29 17:18:37
383.   natepurcell
[382

Holy crap, has anyone gotten a victory over a ticket of any kind?

2008-01-29 17:18:46
384.   Bob Timmermann
Here's what the Coliseum looked like on Opening Day, 1958:

http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics34/00051913.jpg

2008-01-29 17:20:31
385.   kngoworld
384
That is a great photo.
2008-01-29 17:20:39
386.   gibsonhobbs88
374 - Also in LA County for moving violations - if you feel the violation is unfair you can enter a Trail by Declaration-Send in your evidence to the court in written form and the citing officer has to reply in a certain amount of time or you win by default. Most officers hate the paperwork and they don't get paid extra while they do get paid extra to appear in court when a citizen attempts to fight a ticket. If you win, you get a notice by mail and your check within a few weeks. My wife fought and won a couple years ago regarding a left turn violation she thought was unwarranted. We included aerial photos, the citation and her statement and I don't think the officer bothered to retort.
2008-01-29 17:21:20
387.   paranoidandroid
383 I got a trespassing ticket in college and fought it and won. It was only the silly Campus police, but I still felt good about avoiding the big $30 fine.

Then I got three parking tickets that semester. Karma.

2008-01-29 17:21:25
388.   gibsonhobbs88
386-I meant Trial not Trail, Oops!!
2008-01-29 17:22:53
389.   Humma Kavula
384 Maybe I'll wear my fedora to the game.
2008-01-29 17:23:51
390.   ToyCannon
383
I've only heard of anyone beating a traffic ticket because the Cop did not show up. I did go to traffic school where the guy spent the whole time telling us how to beat tickets.

I remember being crushed at the age of 19 when I fought a ticket and the judge took the Policeman's word over mine. I was shocked.

I bet LAT could tell us some stories.

2008-01-29 17:24:37
391.   Bob Timmermann
389
The coolie hat would be a bolder fashion statement. The Dodgers sold coolie hats the first couple years with the Dodgers logo on them. They also sold those Alpine hats with the shaving brush in them. Bugles were a hot item for a while too.
2008-01-29 17:25:10
392.   ToyCannon
384
What are those little things on the field?
2008-01-29 17:25:47
393.   LAT
My best bench story was a citation for an open container. The prosecutor called his first witness, the citing officer. The officer took the stand and testified that he made a routine traffic stop and saw an open Heineken tucked into the back pocket of the passengers front seat. He testified that he pulled it out saw it was about half full. Felt the bottle and it was still cold. He testified that he then poured the contents out onto the sidewalk. Prosecutor thanks him and has him step down.

Prosecutor goes into the hallway, calls the second witness, the first cop's rookie partner. (Witnesses are not allowed in the Courtroom while testimony is being given). He testifies that during a routine traffic stop he too saw an open Heineken tucked into the back pocket of the passengers front seat. He too testified that he saw it was about half full. He too testified he felt the bottle and it was still cold. And to everyone's surprise he too testified that he emptied the bottle out onto the sidewalk.

We have all dreamed of a bottomless Heineken but as far as I know it doesn't exist yet. Case dismissed. Now go into the hallway and talk to Doug Lewellen.

2008-01-29 17:27:22
394.   Eric Enders
383 I once beat a ticket by requesting continuances until the cop got another job and moved out of state.
2008-01-29 17:27:29
395.   CanuckDodger
383 -- In my university days, I got a parking ticket (deserved) and when I went to pay it the campus police woman on duty just deleted it from the computer and said it's my lucky day. So, there's that.
2008-01-29 17:28:24
396.   ToyCannon
No chance there were two open containers and they both did what they said?
2008-01-29 17:29:21
397.   natepurcell
393

Amazing. Were they punished at all for committing perjury?

2008-01-29 17:30:11
398.   Bluebleeder87
357

I should have stated, my ticket was from a real cop, oops.

2008-01-29 17:31:00
399.   Eric Enders
I also got dismissed about half a dozen tickets for parking in front of my own house. During the winter you're technically supposed to go out in the middle of the night and move your car somewhere else so the snowplows can plow the curb area. But the judges recognized that a lot of people don't have anyplace else to move their cars to, so those tickets generally got dismissed.
2008-01-29 17:33:01
400.   natepurcell
Has it be said that Ramon Martinez is coming to spring training on a minor league contract?
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2008-01-29 17:34:39
401.   Bluebleeder87
394

I got my ticket reduced using the same tactic.

2008-01-29 17:37:35
402.   Humma Kavula
400 That's fine. Lucille isn't great shakes, but he acquitted himself to the best of his abilities. There isn't a spot for him on the opening day roster, but if he would like to go to Vegas and wait for an injury, he's more than welcome, in my opinion.
2008-01-29 17:37:47
403.   trainwreck
393
That is awesome. lol
2008-01-29 17:37:57
404.   LAT
One bottle and no perjury. In the real world perjury is reserved for politicians and athletes. In other words, its a purely political tool.
2008-01-29 17:38:41
405.   Jon Weisman
NPUT
2008-01-29 17:39:17
406.   Jon Weisman
400 - Just put up the post.
2008-01-29 17:42:44
407.   LAT
I was a pretty soft touch as a judge. The only people I really threw the book at were those driving without insurance. If you hurt someone and don't have the resources to compensate them you better have insurance or you better not be driving. BTw, there are tons of people without insurance out there.

The only other person I gave a maximum fine to was someone who did not have her baby in a car seat. No excuse for this.

2008-01-29 17:48:52
408.   El Lay Dave
Back in posts 152 and 164 Toy Cannon and bhsportsguy provided some scouting analysis from BHQ and BA, respectively, on the Met's prospects being traded for Santana. I looked up the BHQ ratings for Dodger prospect from a post TC put on True Blue LA, and the BA rating from their own writeup. While this comparison is admittedly crude, here is an attempt at mapping a similar set of Dodger prospects:

BHQ BA rank Age Pos. NY Plyr
9E 2 18 RHP Guerra
?? 3 22 CF Gomez
7B 4 22 RHP Mulvey
8C 7 25 RHP Humber

BHQ BA rank Age Position LA Plyr
8B 3 24 SS Hu
9C 4 22 LHP Elbert
9E 6 19 RHP Withrow
8C 7 23 RHP McDonald

The Dodgers don't have a CF prospect like Gomez, but I used Hu because he's at a premium defensive position. The Dodger pitchers may be too good (if Withrow = Guerra and McDonald = Humber, Elbert > Pulvey); consider, say, Orenduff, who is outside the BA top-10 and a BHQ 7C.

I suspect that some/all the following are true:
-Santana blocked LA
-LA doesn't want to give the six-year extension
-Minn just traded for a SS and needs the CF more
-Santana really wants NY or Boston

2008-01-29 17:49:43
409.   Gen3Blue
I've been in and out tonight, and I just can't keep up with the comments here. They're actually accelerating away from my ability to keep up, and this is good for a favorite site. So without knowing all thats up my opinion of the Santana trade, if it is true as first framed. The Red Sox and Yanks are breathing a huge sigh of relief. They both think they have a young ace or two coming up, and despite their devil may care attitude about payroll, their main fear was that the other would get Santana.
The Mets desperately needed good starters; they stripped their system of pitching for this, but they may have decided they didn't have anything that was going to develop into much anyway. And the NL West can relax a bit and worry about how good each pair, especially ARI's, is going to be.
2008-01-29 17:53:09
410.   Gen3Blue
408 If that Withrow throwing 98 at BA has any grain of truth, you may well be undershooting. But I am skeptical.

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