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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Hull Is Robertsed to Boston
2008-04-08 07:33
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Eric Hull's next opportunity for success will come in the Boston Red Sox organization. The Dodgers traded the fine-performing 28-year-old minor-leaguer to Boston for 22-year-old Christian Lara, who had a .325 on-base percentage in A ball last year but is 8 for 23 with three walks this season. At age 19, Lara was named Gulf Coast League Red Sox player of the year.

The Dodgers also parted ways with Nook Logan, Wilkin Ruan (not again!), Brian Shackelford and Alfredo Simon, reports Diamond Leung of the Press-Enterprise. And True Blue L.A. notes that Anthony Raglani was placed on the restricted list and Cory Dunlap suspended, for reasons momentarily unknown.

Comments (345)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-04-08 07:50:27
1.   cargill06
does it make me a bad fan that i was kinda happy to see loaiza/park get lit, so maybe kuo or maybe kershaw would replace them ASAP
2008-04-08 07:50:27
2.   madmac
right now we have one OFer playing well and that's it. I'm not ready to give up on the others just yet. Kemp and Druw BOTH look terrible. Lets give the same patience to Druw as we want management to give Kemp. Sure Druw was bad last year, but that was it. I'm not sure he's gone the way of the Gonzo just yet.
2008-04-08 07:51:41
3.   JoeyP
Lara's been stuck in Class A for a long time.

It'd have been better if the Dodgers could have attempted to get some catching depth, as opposed to another light hitting SS.

2008-04-08 07:54:07
4.   JoeyP
On the Druw thing, its unlikely for players to completely drop off at the ages of 30/31, but Druw is an "old" 30/31 when you consider how long he's been in the league.

Did the Braves even consider re-signing him? Was it strictly a salary thing, or did they see him as a declining talent?

2008-04-08 08:00:07
5.   D4P
Kind of annoying that Ned will pay Loaiza $7 million but will give Hull away for virtually nothing.
2008-04-08 08:01:27
6.   madmac
1 while I can't wait to see him and I certainly believe he is better than Loaiza or Park right now, I think I'd rather bring him up when our offense is clicking a bit more than it is now. I think he is better off where he is right now. He will have enough pressure on him without feeling like he can't afford to give up a run. Granted, everything I've seen from him leads me to believe nothing will phase him. I'd just prefer put him in the best possible situation.
2008-04-08 08:01:47
7.   D4P
Check that: it's very annoying. Loaiza is 36 and sucks. Hull is 28 and might suck, but might not. At the very least, he doesn't cost $7 million.

Stupid stupid stupid.

2008-04-08 08:07:21
8.   cargill06
5 7 ya doesn't make sense to me.
2008-04-08 08:10:27
9.   cargill06
There was a time, and it seems like only a week or so ago, when the Dodgers thought they had too many outfielders.

I'm so sick of this line. We had to listen to this garbage all the time last year with the pitchers. Just because you had 7 guys who claim to be starters doesn't mean you have a lot of good starting pitchers. Same with this year, just because you signed a guy who claims to be a good OF doesn't mean you have too many OF's everyone knows we'd be better off with Young as our 4th OF and Pierre off the time. Stop fedding this BS line about thinking we had too many OF, we all wish we only had the right 3 heading into this year.

2008-04-08 08:12:18
10.   Doctor
How much longer will Ned be allowed to carry the check book? Seriously.

Lets pick up Piazza.
Cant he PH or emergency 1B/C? DH in the interleague games? It looks like he still has some skills.

2008-04-08 08:14:40
11.   regfairfield
So Eric Hull equals Christian Lara while Scott Proctor equals Wilson Betemit?

Makes sense to me.

2008-04-08 08:16:05
12.   regfairfield
10 I'd be surprised if he were much better than Mark Sweeney at this point. Plus giving Sweeney his guaranteed money, then releasing him a week later would be one of those wastes of money you seem to be unhappy with.
2008-04-08 08:16:21
13.   Ken Noe
Whenever I see a deal like this, my brain's synapses take me to the chapter in Moneyball where Beane is fleecing Steve Phillips and Sabean. Then I wonder what Coletti said.
2008-04-08 08:21:24
14.   cargill06
he's at it again

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3335681

2008-04-08 08:25:23
15.   JoeyP
12--Why not release Gary Bennett and sign Piazza?

If Martin is never going to get a rest, then the backup catcher spot really isnt that valuable. I'm sure Piazza could catcher 1 out of ever 30 games in which Martin gets a rest.

2008-04-08 08:26:46
16.   Doctor
Im sure this has been covered but did anyone hear why Kershaw removed after 3 (not all THAT bad) IP last start? Is the thought that he will be limited to 150 or so IP this year so lets save a good chunk of those for LA?
2008-04-08 08:27:37
17.   D4P
I'd really like Piazza to retire as a Dodger.
2008-04-08 08:29:18
18.   eusmus
16 yes
2008-04-08 08:29:34
19.   LogikReader
14

More fun with Rich Harden. Last month I enrolled in a fantasy league that autopicked my players, and I was upset that I got Harden as my first pitcher.

Only thing is, I misread the name. I ended up with Haren instead.

--

Cargill, outside of "Pierre 2-4", your simulated box score was accurate, if only in spirit. Would you be able to run another one for tonight's game?

2008-04-08 08:29:48
20.   regfairfield
15 Because then we'd be paying a guy extra money to catch 1 out of 30 games. The backup catcher isn't allowed to pinch hit, ever. I don't like it, but it's how things are.
2008-04-08 08:31:08
21.   Doctor
20

So we have a 24 man roster.

2008-04-08 08:34:28
22.   Michael D
We need to part ways with Loaiza ASAP. First we can start Kuo until his arm falls off again. Then we can call up McDonald. Then if we need to half way through the year, call up the Minotaur to destroy NL hitters will to live.

Minotaur doesn't start games, he gets unleashed.

2008-04-08 08:35:21
23.   JoeyP
Andrew made a good point in his post on the other site about Eric Hull.

What was stopping Eric Hull from filling the mop up relief role that Chan Ho Park currently has for the Dodgers?

2008-04-08 08:37:17
24.   cargill06
19 ha, i thought the only thing i'd take credit for is the d'backs winning, and if you add up what park and loaiza did yesterday it's very close to what i projected out of loaiza... i did one on opening day that was fairly accurate.
2008-04-08 08:37:28
25.   CanuckDodger
11 -- The conversation had turned to a hundred other subjects by the time I saw your post yesterday virtually equating Scott Proctor and Eric Hull, so I didn't comment, but this seems like a chance to revisit the issue. In the past I have been Hull's biggest advocate here, saying repeatedly that I wish we'd give him a shot, but I have no illusions that Hull is on anything like the same level as Proctor. In pure scouting terms, the difference is about 7 or 8 MPH on the fastball, and Proctor's two breaking pitches are also respected, while Hull has gotten by, in the minors, on guile. As far as what they have accomplished, Proctor has spent a couple of years as a set-up man for one of MLB's elite teams, while Hull is a 28-year-old AAAA player who has had a cup of coffee in the majors. Of course Proctor is worth more, and even then, what was he worth? An MLB bench player for the every MLB team that has had him.
2008-04-08 08:37:34
26.   D4P
Jon can feel free to eventually borrow this headline:

"Minotaur makes a-maze-ing major league debut"

2008-04-08 08:39:31
27.   cargill06
22 i completely agree, or who knows maybe schmidt maybe ready in 6 weeks or so. and jason showed last year in the one start against SD, if he can throw 90-92 he can still be effective in this league, if he could do that with a damaged shoulder and some rehab, i believe he can still throw in that velo range with a repiared shoulder and all the rehab.
2008-04-08 08:39:51
28.   regfairfield
25 Do you think Hull can be as effective as not 2006 Proctor is? Of course Proctor is worth more since he's proven and what not, but could Hull have the same value with the same chance and a little luck?
2008-04-08 08:41:22
29.   CanuckDodger
23 -- Hull was DFA'd to make room on the 40-man roster for DeWitt, not for Park, who was sent to the minors at the same time Hull was DFA'd
2008-04-08 08:42:37
30.   Lexinthedena
The D-Backs looked very impressive yesterday, but they have a very strikeout-prone lineup. It will be interesting to see how a strikeout pitcher like Billingsly handles them...
2008-04-08 08:43:08
31.   regfairfield
29 But that could have easily changed by just not having Angel Chavez make the team.
2008-04-08 08:43:49
32.   Ken Noe
I'm sticking with prediction of yesterday: Chan Ho in May and then Kershaw in the summer. Torre will want him back up.
2008-04-08 08:46:58
33.   Lexinthedena
32 Chan Ho won't last as a starter. He is done. Loaiza's gonna get a long look and if he fails, Kuo gets a shot.
2008-04-08 08:47:33
34.   Ken Noe
10 If the LADs don't make the playoffs, NedCo is a goner. Star-struck McCourt will hire the GM of Torre's choosing, if not Torre himself.
2008-04-08 08:48:28
35.   JoeyP
So does Eric Hull make the active 25-man Boston roster, or does he go to Pawtucket?
2008-04-08 08:49:29
36.   Ken Noe
33 I don't have him lasting long, but I think Torre will want Minotaur after that. I'd love to see Kuo get another shot, make no mistake, I'm just trying to read the front office.
2008-04-08 08:51:00
37.   regfairfield
35 Pawtuckett for now I'm guessing. They don't have anyone I'd be willing to send down for Eric Hull.
2008-04-08 08:51:22
38.   CanuckDodger
28 -- I don't know that Hull can be effective at all in the majors, let alone as effective as Proctor was in 2006. Once Hull put up good numbers in Vegas (something I respect) my position was: "Let's give Hull a chance to show what he can do in the majors." But we didn't give Hull a real opportunity, so he never even had the chance to improve his value beyond that of a really old Triple A soft-tosser. Giving MLB innings to a washed-up Roberto Hernandez last year instead of to Hull was the REAL outrage. Trading Hull for anything we could get, even if very little, after we had to bounce him off the 40-man roster to make room for DeWitt pales by comparison as something to be upset about.
2008-04-08 08:56:29
39.   Doctor
Tomdricksoiza is probably out the door- Torre didn't even commit to the next time around in the rotation.
2008-04-08 08:56:57
40.   Frip
I don't want anyone who looks as sad-sack as Loaiza on the team. It's just bad karma. I feel like I've fallen into a vat of goop when he comes on. I don't think he's a loser, he's just got loser written all over him.
2008-04-08 08:57:07
41.   CanuckDodger
31 -- Chavez made the 25-man roster because it was assumed DeWitt would be badly out-classed in the majors from the get-go, and that wasn't a totally outrageous assumption about somebody who appeared to be as far away from being MLB-ready as DeWitt appeared at the end of the 2007 season.
2008-04-08 08:59:26
42.   regfairfield
40 He does have the nicest car on the Dodgers according to my friend, so he's gor that going for him.

41 I'd believe that if Chavez didn't get DFAed after three games.

2008-04-08 09:00:02
43.   Lexinthedena
39 If that's the case, then I'm looking forward to watching Kuo make hitters really uncomfortable.
2008-04-08 09:00:15
44.   cargill06
39 don't get the "tomdricks" part of that, torre never had to deal with the horrid nightmares of tomko or hendrickson. but what quotes make you believe he won't even commit to him next start?
2008-04-08 09:00:53
45.   cargill06
42 it's probably the car he was driving 110 on the freeway hammered.
2008-04-08 09:01:22
46.   wronghanded
I know that my opinion will be unpopular but I don't think Kuo is as good as most of us think. Aside from being extremely fragile, I have not seen the command that a major league starter needs. He doesn't neccessarily walk a ton of guys but he seems to constantly fall behind in the count, which of course leads to inflated pitch counts. To me he seems like a 5 inning pitcher tops which will tax our bullpen. That said, he's still a better option than Loaiza. I just hope we don't have another Tomdrickson situation in the 5 slot this year (at least until Minotaur is "unleashed").
2008-04-08 09:03:57
47.   cargill06
46 i agree with you that with kuo you'll get 6 IP a start AT BEST, but as far as the ERA goes i'd be surprised if he is higher than 4.50
2008-04-08 09:05:01
48.   CanuckDodger
42 -- Believe it. What changed from before game 1 to after game 3? After game 3, DeWitt looked like the best player on the whole MLB team. Sure, nobody expected DeWitt to keep THAT level of play up, but it was enough to make Chavez look totally unnecessary.
2008-04-08 09:05:42
49.   Lexinthedena
46 It's really a matter of health. He has looked great as a starter, and has looked wild, but he has never had enough starts for us to know. He DOES make hitters uncomfortable though:)
2008-04-08 09:06:09
50.   Doctor
44

just the rotating door of over paid, ineffective #5s we have had to watch over the last few years....

""I didn't have no clue why they were taking me out," said Loaiza, who fell to 0-2 and saw his earned-run average inflate to 6.75.

Torre, on the other hand, wouldn't say if Loaiza would remain his fifth starter.

"I'm not looking to beyond tomorrow right now," Torre said. " -LAT

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-04-08 09:06:36
51.   regfairfield
48 Can I make death threats to the front office for making decisions based on how Dewitt looked after game three then?
2008-04-08 09:07:44
52.   D4P
""I didn't have no clue why they were taking me out," said Loaiza

I didn't have no clue why they were putting you in.

2008-04-08 09:09:27
53.   Lexinthedena
51 They will surely get lost in the stack of "Juan Pierre for 5 years!?" death threats. They needed to make sure that DeWitt didn't have a complete meltdown. He showed that he could at least be serviceable.
2008-04-08 09:11:27
54.   wronghanded
49 I agree that he has some nasty stuff, if he could ever harness command of the strike zone, we'd have a formidable front 5.
2008-04-08 09:12:58
55.   regfairfield
53 Would now be a good time to point out the similarites in Andy LaRoche and Blake Dewitt's career numbers in the bigs?
2008-04-08 09:13:46
56.   Daniel Zappala
Don't look now, but Joe Crede is off to a hot start in Chicago.
2008-04-08 09:14:10
57.   Lexinthedena
55 In doing that would you be assuming that I think LaRoche was treated fairly last year?
2008-04-08 09:14:44
58.   Eric Stephen
55
You mean Andy "he had his chance and didn't do anything LaRoche? :)
2008-04-08 09:16:27
59.   ToyCannon
What's the fuss about? Didn't Loaiza throw a rule 9 violation after the Upton infield single? He face 17 batters and of those 17 batters, 3 of the first 4 squared up on him.

After that he was awesome. God forbid that he have some command issues spotting his below average fastball in his 1st start 8 days after the season started.

2008-04-08 09:16:29
60.   regfairfield
58 The very same. Would we think Blake Dewitt wasn't over matched if he had started off 1 for 12 and worked his way up to a .238 average?
2008-04-08 09:16:45
61.   still bevens
Loaiza was doing fine last night after he stopped leaving his 84mph fastball up in the zone.
2008-04-08 09:19:24
62.   Bumsrap
It felt like Torre wanted to see Young pinch hit and Park pitch long relief more than he wanted to see if Loiaza could give him a couple more good innings. It seemed like the best chance for the Dodgers to win would have been to let Loaiza continue pitching.

Torre and his coaches need to make up their minds about what they think each player is capable of doing.

I would prefer starting Kuo over Loaiza and Park.

2008-04-08 09:20:46
63.   Lexinthedena
60 If he looked over matched we might think so. We also would probably have seen Angel Chavez get a look.
2008-04-08 09:22:25
64.   The Trolley Dodger
62 "Torre and his coaches need to make up their minds about what they think each player is capable of doing."

Considering the stupid-crazy, globe-spanning spring training, I think that's what they're still doing.

2008-04-08 09:27:27
65.   Eric Stephen
And then in game 8, the ace gets to start. Yay!
2008-04-08 09:31:00
66.   MarLoKemp
40 Your comment reminds me of Odalis Perez. I was at the Jose Lima (the anti-Loaiza/Perez/might as well throw in Ismael Valdez) playoff game in 2004. What a game!! I was convinced that we would win the next two to beat the Cardinals in the NLDS and go on to the World Series. I was even interviewed on T.V. news predicting/screaming about this "team of destiny."

Ten minutes after the interview I happened to see next-game starter Odalis Perez driving joylessly out of the parking lot and I knew it was all over.

P.S. Odalis gave up 3 hits and 5 walks in his 2.1 innings the next night.

2008-04-08 09:33:13
67.   ToyCannon
60
Having watched most of DeWitts ab's he hasn't appeared any more over matched then LaRoche did last season. So if you didn't think LaRoche was overmatched even though he produced a tiny batting average why don't you give DeWitt the same slack?
Kemp and Jones have looked over matched. Not DeWitt. Considering this is the 1st time he's faced this caliber of pitching, I'm impressed.
2008-04-08 09:35:52
68.   regfairfield
67 Dewitt's numbers coming into this year suggessted he wouldn't be able to handle big league pitching, LaRoche's suggested he would. I putting most of my faith in that rather than what I've seen out of Blake Dewitt with my own eyes.

I was making the comparison more for the "Andy LaRoche blew his chance" people anyway.

2008-04-08 09:36:38
69.   underdog
Canuck says it all perfectly above regarding Eric Hull, so I have nothing to add on the subject. Just thought I'd say that. :-)

Boy, people sure are grouchy this week. I hope the Dodgers win today, that usually takes care of (some of) that grouchiness. Temporarily at least.

2008-04-08 09:37:36
70.   kinbote
Schadenfreude Thoughts:

Seattle trades excellent set-up man and excellent defensive outfielder [plus prospects] for starting pitcher. Team then loses multiple games because of poor relief pitching and defense. Starting pitcher misses start. What have the good people of Seattle done to deserve Bavasi?

2008-04-08 09:38:11
71.   madmac
69 no doubt. this place is a major bummer right now.
2008-04-08 09:38:36
72.   Lexinthedena
68 I don't think any of those people post on this board.

66 I too was at that game, and had a great time. I also knew that St. Louis had the far superior squad, and that Odalis was toast. There are countless anecdotes about Odalis' off the field behavior when he was a Dodger.

2008-04-08 09:40:10
73.   Sagehen
My understanding is that Chavez was on the team not only as insurance in case Dewitt imploded but, more importantly, as an extra middle-infielder in case Kent's hamstring couldn't handle full-time duty (to backup up Hu and DeWitt when Kent was day to day). Once Kent proved himself healthy, Chavez went away.
2008-04-08 09:41:02
74.   MarLoKemp
Are people getting down on Blake DeWitt already? Good grief!

I guess the fact that he has struggled against three of the best young pitchers in the game must mean he sucks.

2008-04-08 09:41:03
75.   madmac
70 but wait, we have the worst GM and orgainization in the history of sports.

snark, snark, snark

2008-04-08 09:41:41
76.   regfairfield
72 Yeah, they do, as a LaRoche fan boy I notice these things.
2008-04-08 09:42:34
77.   Sagehen
How was Lara named Gulf Coast League RedSox player of the year when his OBP was only .325?

And when are we going to quit making random deals with the RedSox and Giants and their former players? Surely, there are other organizations out there.

2008-04-08 09:43:10
78.   cargill06
69 71 i know we're talking about a team on pace to win 93 games, if they go 4-3 every 7 games i'll be happy.

if you put a gun to my head and i had to pick between andruw for 2 years or torii for 5 in november i'd have taken andruw i maybe starting to re-consider.

2008-04-08 09:43:25
79.   Lexinthedena
74 I don't think that anyone is getting down on DeWitt. Just getting to the bottom of roster decisions.
2008-04-08 09:44:11
80.   madmac
76 I think we're very fortunate to have both LaRoche and DeWitt. I'm looking forward to LaRoche's season starting.
2008-04-08 09:46:10
81.   JoeyP
If thats true, I guess the Tigers are on pace to go 0-162.
2008-04-08 09:46:32
82.   Daniel Zappala
I'm still on board with 97 wins this year. The Dodgers have a lot of games to go and a lot of places where improvement is expected.
2008-04-08 09:48:36
83.   D4P
And when are we going to quit making random deals with the RedSox and Giants and their former players? Surely, there are other organizations out there

Like Tampa Bay, for example.

2008-04-08 09:49:54
84.   cargill06
81 ya they are. in a perfect world we'd love to see martin, kemp, jones, hitting and odds are they all will hit (not so sure what to expect from druw), but fact of the matter is pitching is our strong point, and one of our best pitchers has yet to start a game. Lowe, Penny, Billz, and Kuroda along with our above average bull pen will win us a lot of games.
2008-04-08 09:51:01
85.   Eric Stephen
77
Lara had a .325 OBP last season, but he won organizational player of the year in 2004 when he hit .330/.429/.436 as a 19 year old.
2008-04-08 09:53:32
86.   fanerman
69 I agree. For being 6 games into the season and having a team that started 4-2, this place is abysmal.
2008-04-08 09:54:18
87.   JoeyP
When did the Tampa Bay Devil Rays change their name to just Tampa Bay Rays?

Was everyone else aware of this change?!

2008-04-08 09:54:43
88.   D4P
86
We're 7 games into the season, and we started 4-3.
2008-04-08 09:54:58
89.   Lexinthedena
84 The only things I am worried about are Jones looking terrible at the plate and decent, but not legendary in center field, and Pierre getting starts.
2008-04-08 09:55:33
90.   Daniel Zappala
87 Yes, and it's Rod Serling, not Sterling. Everyone knows these things.
2008-04-08 09:55:48
91.   fanerman
88 Oh yeah I forgot about last night. My internet connection was dead and I forgot the world outside my apartment happened.
2008-04-08 09:56:57
92.   Lexinthedena
86 How so?....people are talking baseball. What's so "abysmal"?
2008-04-08 09:57:36
93.   Jon Weisman
I do think a number of people here have a tendency to go hyper-negative after a single loss. It's especially noticeable after Monday's game, which pitted our No. 6 or 7 starter against Arizona's No. 2. It's a downer and sometimes I wish it weren't the case, but I'm not sure what there is to do about it. I think any given loss often brings out fears for an entire season.
2008-04-08 09:57:49
94.   Lexinthedena
90 I could have sworn that I had always seen it spelled "Sterling".
2008-04-08 09:58:14
95.   ToyCannon
77
You might want to take a look at what the league average OBP was in the Sally League when he won that honor. Then remember he was the best defensive SS in the league.

Ned has used most major league teams when making trades
One deal with Giants(Sweeney)
One deal with the RedSox (Lara)
Two deals with the A's(Ethier, Loiaza)
Two deals with the DevilRays
One Deal with the Brewers(Brady Clark)
Two Deals with KC(Dessens,Valdez)
One Deal with NYY(Proctor)
One Deal with NYM(Seo)
One Deal with Reds(Kozlowski)
One Deal with CWS(LaMura)
One Deal with Cubs(Maddux)
One Deal with Braves(Betemit)
One Deal with Nat's(M Anderson)

I'm sure I'm missing some but Ned does not play favorites.

What is interesting is how many times he has flipped someone he traded for. When it comes to trades, Ned has no problem in moving them again ASAP.

2008-04-08 09:59:49
96.   D4P
When it comes to trades, Ned has no problem in moving them again ASAP

It's sad that he has to see (junk) with his own eyes before he can recognize it as such.

2008-04-08 10:02:13
97.   regfairfield
95 Three with the D-Rays actually (Jackson, Navarro, Guzman).

Lara was the GCL player of the year, not Sally League. He did win best base runner in the Red Sox organization in June 2007 though.

2008-04-08 10:03:13
98.   Eric Stephen
95
I think technically the Loaiza deal was a waiver claim rather than a trade.
2008-04-08 10:04:04
99.   fanerman
92 Just a lot of negativity and perhaps some undue paranoia about everything (Pierre's starts, Jones's struggles, Kemp's at-bats).
2008-04-08 10:06:04
100.   Marty
Anyone know how to tie a hangman's noose? I'm looking for a wobbly chair too. Thanks in Advance.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-04-08 10:06:58
101.   cargill06
what about reynolds 1st inning HR, jeez, anything that flies thay far should have a damn stewardess on it.
2008-04-08 10:07:18
102.   Eric Stephen
100
Don't forget a pocket knife to carve "Marty Was Here" into the ceiling! :)
2008-04-08 10:07:22
103.   JoeyP
There's nothing undue about Pierre starting.
2008-04-08 10:08:02
104.   Lexinthedena
93 99 There may be some negativity after a bad loss, but words like abysmal and hyper-negative don't seem fair. No one is using abusive language or writing off the season. The paranoia about Jones and Pierre is at this point understandable, and in my opinion is being expressed pretty reasonably.
2008-04-08 10:09:53
105.   Lexinthedena
100 It's gotta be a three-legged stool.
2008-04-08 10:09:54
106.   regfairfield
104 I'd say anyone wanting Loaiza's release right now is being hyper negative.
2008-04-08 10:11:27
107.   JoeyP
Arizona's going to have alot to replace next year with both Budinger/Bayless leaving...
2008-04-08 10:11:30
108.   D4P
106
I think it's reasonable to have opposed the Loaiza acquisition in the first place, and to maintain that sentiment into this season.
2008-04-08 10:13:21
109.   silverwidow
Troncoso deserves more praise. He wasn't on most people's radar for 2008, and all of a sudden, he's a top 3 Dodger reliever.
2008-04-08 10:13:48
110.   regfairfield
How about anyone that wants a player released now that they didn't a week ago is being hyper negative?
2008-04-08 10:14:07
111.   Paul Scott
I think the negativity is unrelated to the record. Mine is, anyway. We could be 7-0 and I'd still complain about Torre's choices this year, including but not limited to:

1. His use of Pierre
2. His use of Billz
3. His use of Kou

He has done some things right, but I have yet to see any reason I should prefer him over any other manger. One thing all Managers seem incapable of doing is putting the best squad on the field and letting them play. Torre is certainly no different so far.

I would also be complaining about Flanders, who still to date has only made one good acquisition (Furcal) and has made a host of terrible trades and one terrible acquisition (Pierre).

W-L record won't change these things.

2008-04-08 10:15:36
112.   D4P
110
Agreed.

111
Agreed.

2008-04-08 10:15:56
113.   cargill06
just watch the catcher when andruw hits and that's all you need to know. he'll set up on the outside half every single pitch. everyone in the league knows he's pulling off and they'll keep doing it til he fixes it.
2008-04-08 10:16:02
114.   Eric Stephen
106
I agree. If Loaiza is your 5th starter coming out of spring, I don't think he loses his spot after only 1 start and 8 days into the season.
2008-04-08 10:16:11
115.   Frip
Christian Lara does have a beautiful name. Much better than "Eric Hull".
2008-04-08 10:16:35
116.   Disabled List
Wworth thinking about is Ned's record in FA acqusitions (correct me if I'm wrong on any of these): Furcal, Nomar, LuGo, Pierre, Schmidt and now Kuroda and Jones. Contract extensions to Kent and Nomar (and Penny?). I don't know how much credit to give to Ned for Saito.

That's a mixed bag, leaning towards an overall negative. We've said it before: if it wasn't for Logan White's drafts of 2002-03, the Dodgers would be tangling with the Giants for the division cellar in 2008.

2008-04-08 10:18:10
117.   Eric Stephen
111
Flanders, who still to date has only made one good acquisition (Furcal)

2) Maddux for Izturis
3) Ethier for Bradley & Perez

2008-04-08 10:19:31
118.   madmac
111 genius, by that logic as long as they make every mover YOU agree with they can go 0-7 and you'd be happy. sheesh, c'mon people.
2008-04-08 10:24:59
119.   cargill06
if i were to tell you in dec your first 7 games you face, cain, lincecum, peavy, c. young, and haren. everyone in here would be happy with a 3-4 start.
2008-04-08 10:25:54
120.   ToyCannon
97
Ha, three trades with Tampa Bay. Both teams had some of the best prospects in baseball and yet after 3 trades none of the best talent exchanged hands.

1st Deal - Edwin Jackson - 5 starter in the rotation, seems to be getting better
Chuck Tiffany - blew his arm out and it must have been a grenade because that was all she wrote

Danys Baez - sucked for us, traded along with Aybar for Betemit who was traded for Proctor
Lance Carter - Carter ended up in Japan after showing everyone that life is not fair when someone like Carter gets a major league pension but guys like Houlton and Hull will not. At least not with the Dodgers.

2nd Deal - Navarro - starting catcher, had great 2nd half, great spring, great start before going on DL
Seo - out of ML baseball
Ruggiano - still trying to become an extra outfielder.

Hendrickson - Opening day pitcher for Marlins

3rd Deal Joel Guzman - should be out of baseball soon, the demise has been as swift as I've ever seen from a 19 year AA slugging SS to 25th man with no position
Pedroza - minor league fodder, with plenty of power and nothing else

Julio Lugo- became supplementary pick Adkins who is pitching in A ball and is highly regarded

So they have Navarro, Jackson, Ruggiano, Guzman, and Pedroza

We have Proctor and Adkins

2008-04-08 10:27:53
121.   ToyCannon
111
I hate that one sided logic. It can never stand up under scutiny.
2008-04-08 10:29:04
122.   Eric Stephen
119
I wouldn't. Everyone keeps bringing up all these tough pitchers the Dodgers have faced, but it's not like the entire game boils down to the Dodger offense against the opposing pitcher.

Other teams still have to face our staff, which is damn good and will be even better when Billingsley is allowed to start.

2008-04-08 10:29:45
123.   regfairfield
119 It's not that hard to beat Cain and Lincecum when the other team is incapable of scoring runs.
2008-04-08 10:29:49
124.   natepurcell
120

Withrow too.

2008-04-08 10:32:05
125.   Doctor
119

Agree with what you are saying, but games VS Giants don't count. Goodness they are bad. Fans booed the heck out of Zito yesterday when he was announced for opening day. All is very unwell at Phone park. Wow.

2008-04-08 10:33:37
126.   ToyCannon
124
Thanks, I keep forgetting he was also supplemental because we lost our own number one pick.

I haven't seen any stories on this but do you guys realize that we keep picking the Braves fruit.
JD Drew - 2005
Furcal - 2006
A Jones - 2008

2008-04-08 10:34:27
127.   Paul Scott
117 Those are trades, not FA acquisitions.

Secondly, The first you mentioned was hardly a "good" trade, in that it had no real expected value. Maddux was and is a pitcher who was once great and is now below average. Izturis was always a below average player. Just because Maddux happened to give us some good innings plus one truly special start doesn't make that a blockbuster trade. It was a low value trade that happened to produce some nice short term gains. It was essentially the same thing as pick up of Wells, but luck went against us with Wells and for us with Maddux. I don't credit people with getting lucky (as I do not blame them for getting unlucky).

The Ethier deal is more controversial - or my position on it would be. I think at this point I ave to concede it is at least a wash. Ethier has produced beyond what his minor league record would suggest. If, as he appeared to be last year, he develops power, then either one of two things will be true - There was something White saw in Ethier that statistical analysis just cannot predict -or- Ethier developed in a manner inconsistent with his record and comparables and White did not really "see" anything but his "gut" for talent worked out this time.

Frankly, the same thing could be said about Saito. I know of no reason why an aging starter with declining K/BB in a AAAA environment should suddenly become an MLB superstar. Maybe, again, White saw something that statistics cannot predict or maybe a guy they brought in as an acceptable middle-relief did something completely unpredictable.

2008-04-08 10:35:03
128.   fanerman
104 It isn't unreasonable, but it just feels like everybody's making the same point over and over again, even if there are occasional new wrinkles. Then again, if we weren't making the same point over and over again, we'd have nothing to talk about.
2008-04-08 10:36:47
129.   natepurcell
I think at this point I ave to concede it is at least a wash.

lol

2008-04-08 10:38:57
130.   Eric Stephen
With Furcal healthy and producing thus far, I wonder if he will start stealing bases again. He had 12 SB in 15 games last September, quite a spike for him.

I remember hearing about Furcal in the minors when he was really young, and he had an amazing stretch as a 19 & 20 year old when he stole 133 bases in 149 games (at a 78% success rate) in rookie and A ball.

2008-04-08 10:39:24
131.   natepurcell
to add, I didnt realize a minor league record of 317/.389/.464 doesn't show talent or doesn't show the ability to do well in the majors.

What a joke. Bradley was a hothead who has burned his bridges with 4 teams now. It was a good trade then, and it is a great trade now.

2008-04-08 10:42:45
132.   madmac
my gosh, my 2 yr old makes more sense
2008-04-08 10:43:17
133.   D4P
There was something White saw in Ethier that statistical analysis just cannot predict

White? Are you forgetting the octogenarian who discovered Ethier at a company picnic softball game?

2008-04-08 10:43:37
134.   cargill06
ya, bradely and perez for ethier is approaching "rapage" status.
2008-04-08 10:43:57
135.   regfairfield
127 We gave up a player who was worth less than nothing in Izturis for another starter that we needed. Could we expect Maddux to be that good? No. But he wasn't David Wells where giving up two home runs would be considered a good start.
2008-04-08 10:44:13
136.   Paul Scott
121 It is not one sided. I just don't see how a W-L record - and especially one after 7 games, weather 7-0 or 0-7 - can tell you anything meaningful. The moves Torre has made have been on the down side of poor. I think it is particularly uncontroversial that starting Pierre over Kemp is foolish. For my part, I would know that to be true even if we were 7-0 and Pierre had a .600+ OPB. Kemp is a better player than Pierre in every aspect except speed. There is just no reason to start him over Kemp, irrespective of what any small sample size may tell you (even though, in this case, the small sample size we have still favors playing Kemp).

Basing things on a record is cheating. Moves have to be evaluated based on the information know at the time. That information can and should include reasonable projections of future performance, but cannot include actual performance after time has passed. Doing the latter is what generates the well understood expression that "hindsight is 20/20."

2008-04-08 10:44:51
137.   Eric Stephen
127
Maddux, at the time of his acquisition was at worst a league average pitcher. Izturis was well below average, near replacement level. I don't know how that's not a good trade at the time it was made, not even considering the performances post trade.
2008-04-08 10:45:41
138.   Disabled List
127 I think there are very few people who would undo the Bradley/Ethier trade. That trade was a big win for the Dodgers.
2008-04-08 10:45:54
139.   The Trolley Dodger
We must have lost last night -- we're debating the Ethier trade. :P
2008-04-08 10:47:33
140.   Lexinthedena
Again, White gets the credit for the good moves, Ned the blame for the bad ones.
2008-04-08 10:50:31
141.   madmac
140 and Ned just got lucky on everything else.
2008-04-08 10:51:51
142.   GMac In The 909
93 I do think a number of people here have a tendency to go hyper-negative after a single loss ... and another Juan Pierre start.

Fixed.

2008-04-08 10:52:10
143.   bhsportsguy
Grumpy, you want grumpy, Trainwreck can vouch that a certain UCLA site we both belong to had to put out an opinion by their main writer/site runner on how Ben Howland is one of the best coaches in America and how winning a NCAA title is so dificult.
2008-04-08 10:53:43
144.   Disabled List
136 Moves have to be evaluated based on the information know at the time. That information can and should include reasonable projections of future performance, but cannot include actual performance after time has passed.

That's not true at all. Every trade/move can be justified at the time the trade/move is made, otherwise there's no reason to make do it. Only after the passage of time does a winner and a loser emerge.

I'm sure the Delino-for-Pedro trade looked reasonable at the time, and I'm sure projections for future performance were taken into account. After a while, it came to be one of the most lopsided trades baseball history. It's not like Fred Claire knew he was sending a future HOFer to the Expos for a league-average 2B; if he did, he obviously wouldn't have considered it. Claire lost that trade, period. It just took five years or so before that became clear.

2008-04-08 10:53:52
145.   fiddlestick
Report from last night--had great seats:

Saw Nomar swing a bit in BP, didn't look like he was cutting loose much.

If Pierre is supposed to be playing for the most "lost" outfielder at the plate, he should be in CF. Andruw Jones is getting embarrassed. He continues to look for fastballs even though no one would be dumb enough to throw him a fastball since he hasn't shown that he can come within 3 feet of a breaking pitch. To see him continue to swing wildly and try to pull everything, then to see Kemp come up to PH and punch one through the right side shows me that someone's listening to what they're told and somebody isn't. And Matt Kemp looks twice as big in person than he does on TV.

Reynolds 2nd home run looked like he didn't get it much, but from the sound it made, you knew it was going out.

Loiaza got killed for not making adjustments. Arizona went up with a plan to attack his BP, get-me-over, fastball early and he kept throwing it and throwing it high. In his mind he might have thought he settled down, but there were a couple more balls that were just missed that ended up on the warning track. If Loaiza continues to be the #5 starter, may as well make Bennett his personal catcher and rest Martin because we're throwing up the white flag before the game even starts.;

What was the TV gun reading Chan Ho at? They turned the ballpark gun off after the first inning. Looked like he was throwing hard. Also looks like he's lowered his arm angle to almost 3/4 but it looks very flat, not much movement.

Jeffrey Moorad didn't bother shining his shoes to go with his expensive suit.

Matt Williams sat behind us and told us the worst pain he ever felt was taking a Kevin Brown fastball in the ribs. Said it turned his whole torso purple.

AZ's new 60 foot HD jumbotron is quite impressive.

2008-04-08 10:54:42
146.   Paul Scott
Ned, not White, makes the decision (as far as I know), so he gets credit for any moves made based on White's knowledge. Every GM has advisors - statistical and scouting; if anything I typed implied that Ned should not get credit for properly using the tools at his disposal, then that was misunderstood.
2008-04-08 10:55:48
147.   D4P
That's not true at all. Every trade/move can be justified at the time the trade/move is made, otherwise there's no reason to make do it. Only after the passage of time does a winner and a loser emerge

At least one problem with this is that you seem to assume that all GMs (1) evaluate players the same way, and (2) evaluate players the "right" way".

That's clearly not the case.

2008-04-08 10:58:27
148.   fanerman
144 I think there's such a thing as a good (logical) move that doesn't work out and a bad move that does work out.
2008-04-08 10:59:43
149.   cargill06
145 the tv gun had chan ho at 93-95 mph
2008-04-08 11:00:42
150.   Disabled List
147 The justification for a trade can differ from GM to GM, but it's always there. That justification can be a salary dump, or a lousy bullpen, or getting screwed over by Jody Reed, whatever. GMs are rational actors, and will act in their rational self-interest at all times.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-04-08 11:01:35
151.   kngoworld
Chase Utley has just been HBP is two ABs in a row.
2008-04-08 11:02:03
152.   Kevin Lewis
Does MLB.tv still offer free trials?
2008-04-08 11:02:41
153.   Lexinthedena
150 Or Tommy LaSorda thinking that small pitchers would break down, and that Christian relief pitchers didn't have the juevos to be closers.
2008-04-08 11:04:02
154.   D4P
GMs are rational actors, and will act in their rational self-interest at all times

First of all, that can be taken to mean that they make trades with their own job security in mind, rather than the success of the team. While these are not mutually exclusive, they're also not synonymous.

Second, GMs might be rational, but they're not necessarily intelligent. They may think their actions will help achieve their goals, but they might not accurately understand (for example) how runs are created and prevented, and thus which players should be acquired.

2008-04-08 11:04:36
155.   Paul Scott
144 The D4P trade did look reasonable at the time - or at least more reasonable than many people give it credit for.

You are also very clearly right on how you evaluate who lost a trade - it can only be on the record. That is a completely different question from whether a trade the right move to make.

You have to judge decisions using only the information available at the time. Of course, you can and should judge the effects flowing from the decisions based on information gained later.

Example: We are in a coin flipping contest. I have done studies on the coins and found that 85% of the coins in our pool are weighted to land tails up at a 3:2 ratio on a typical sequence of flips. You, on the other hand, have done no investigation but have always believe that "heads" is just the way to go. I select tails based on my research, you select heads based on you gut feeling of the nature of the universe. We select a coin. Sad for me, we randomly picked one of the rare coins whose weighting results in an edge to head. We do our series of tosses and you win.

Who won the selection? You did. Obviously, since you won.

Who made the right choice? Me.

Or, if you don't like that formulation of the question, who do you want selecting "heads" or "tails" the next time this game is played? Me.

2008-04-08 11:05:20
156.   Jon Weisman
136 -

It's not that the current record is meaningful or not. It's that your comment in 111 seems to frame everything as a referendum on Torre or Colletti, when there's still some good with the team indepdent of their poorer choices.

Just as the Dodgers have flaws even when they win, they have strengths even when they lose. Ignoring the second part is what seems one-sided.

2008-04-08 11:05:49
157.   Disabled List
A clarification on 150 : GMs are rational actors, and will act in what they percieve to be their rational self-interest at all times.

That's an important distinction.

2008-04-08 11:06:30
158.   KG16
Perhaps it's because I don't live and die by the Dodgers (any more), but wow... the consternation around these parts after seven games (a whole 5% of the season) is crazy.

Take a breathe everyone, relax and enjoy the games. Yes, it'd be great if the best players played and performed well, but at this point, how about we just try enjoying the ride?

2008-04-08 11:06:50
159.   dzzrtRatt
One thing all Managers seem incapable of doing is putting the best squad on the field and letting them play. Torre is certainly no different so far.

Lots of you guys are into stats, right?

If "all managers" don't put the best squad on the field, don't you have to figure there are factors you have failed to account for? using Billy Beane's theory of how hidden knowledge equates to a competitive edge, you'd have to assume if a manager could win just by evaluating the stats and "putting the best squad on the field," at least one of them would choose that method. But, the statement above suggests that none of them do this.

With respect to Torre and the Dodgers: Not every manager has Juan Pierre and his stinking pile of contract to worry about.

Torre said last night that Kemp is "going to be a superstar" but he didn't want to expose him at this particular low point in his development to Peavy, Young and Haren -- the infamous "tough right-handers."

So, maybe, Torre decided to kill two birds with one stone:

-Sit Kemp to avoid the confidence-destroying encounters with those pitchers; and

-Fulfill his promise to get Pierre some starts, obviously hoping Pierre would succeed, but knowing that if he played and failed -- which he did, predictably -- he and his agent wouldn't have much to say if he didn't start again for two weeks.

Torre knows he's not going to get Pierre released, and a trade is highly unlikely. He's an albatross. He's said as much by batting him eighth in every game he's used him but one. But he has to do something with him. Using him as a sacrificial lamb in three games the Dodgers didn't figure to win anyway is possibly a brilliant move, even though it did not equate to "putting the best squad on the field."

2008-04-08 11:09:44
160.   Lexinthedena
159 Really great point. There are, and will always be factors that we are not privy to, and I find speculating on those factors an enjoyable pastime.
2008-04-08 11:12:05
161.   cargill06
I have done studies on the coins and found that 85% of the coins in our pool are weighted to land tails up at a 3:2 ratio on a typical sequence of flips.

seriously?

2008-04-08 11:14:01
162.   natepurcell
161

hypothetically.

2008-04-08 11:15:07
163.   fanerman
161 Key phrase: "in our pool." I'd suggest you never let Paul Scott choose what coins to use if you engage with him in coin-flipping matches.
2008-04-08 11:18:10
164.   dzzrtRatt
Don't forget, 90 percent of all statistics can be twisted to show anything you want, 50 percent of the time.
2008-04-08 11:18:59
165.   madmac
159 amen
2008-04-08 11:19:08
166.   cargill06
oh duh.
2008-04-08 11:19:28
167.   D4P
Matt Kemp hasn't exactly sucked against righties in his career:

.299/.328/.497/.825

Not incredible, but not (to my mind) evidence that he has to sit out against northpaws.

2008-04-08 11:19:40
168.   Eric Enders
I'm accepting of the "there may be factors we don't know about" theory, but I can't get over my sneaking suspicion that most of the time that factor is simply: "this guy is a veteran player who deserves my respect, he's a nice guy, I feel sorry for him, and he's whining about his playing time so I'll give him a start just to pacify him."
2008-04-08 11:20:55
169.   madmac
161 hey, he's done the research, just like Tom Cruise
2008-04-08 11:21:24
170.   Paul Scott
156 I certainly agree with that. It applies equally to the Dodgers players and the front office. I don't think Torre is any better or any worse than most managers. I also think Ned is a below average GM, but one who is willing to correct his own mistakes (even if he makes another one while doing so) and that alone gives him a strength many GMs and Managers for that matter lack.

Also, this Dodger team is one of the best we have seen in a while. Do I think we would be better and have gotten here at least one year sooner and would our farm be stronger still if we had a different front office? Yes. But we are none-the-less a very good team with a strong chance to get into and do well in the playoffs this year.

That doesn't alter the specific complaints I have about Torre's moves (though, again, I am not suggesting he is terrible or that we should dump him) nor does it change my feelings that Ned should be replaced.

2008-04-08 11:22:00
171.   D4P
I'm accepting of the "there may be factors we don't know about" theory

I think it's fine to say "We can never know 100% of what goes on."

I don't think it's fine to say "We can't know 100%, so we might as well act as if we know 0%."

2008-04-08 11:24:12
172.   scareduck
171 - and thus my fundamental problem with Bill James' "Underestimating the Fog". As far as I have ever been able to tell, it amounted to a resignation.
2008-04-08 11:24:22
173.   Paul Scott
171 Precisely.
2008-04-08 11:24:49
174.   fanerman
167 I don't think anybody is arguing against that.
2008-04-08 11:26:26
175.   Eric Enders
171 Another thing is, we also shouldn't assume the manager knows 100% either. There are things we know that most managers don't.
2008-04-08 11:26:33
176.   68elcamino427
145
Great Post - Thank You

I've picked the Dodgers to win 91 games.
That means the team needs to go 87-68 the rest of the way.
We knew the #5 spot in the rotation was going to be a soft spot going in, so I'm not surprised with the results that we saw last night. Loaiza, Park, Kuo? Expect more of the same until Kershaw arrives. I'm not ready to fall for any more Schmidt hype.
The Dodgers first four starters compare great to any other team in the MLB.

Re: Jones, right now it looks like he's trying to do things at the plate that he used to be able to do, but his body just won't do anymore. He'll either come around...or he will need to make some adjustments to his offensive game.
His defense is great.

This is just the beginning of a long season.
I wish that we could win every game.
The odds are more in our favor when Penny, Lowe, Billingsley, and Kuroda are pitching.
If the Dodgers do what is best for Kershaw, then we will just have to be ready for whatever the fifth starter can provide until Kershaw arrives--after the All - Star break--.

2008-04-08 11:26:36
177.   scareduck
172 -

http://6-4-2.blogspot.com/2006/02/overestimating-fog.html

2008-04-08 11:28:35
178.   dzzrtRatt
167 I don't think the plan is to sit Kemp against all righties, or even against all "tough" righties.

It's just a temporary thing, on the theory that Kemp might not rediscover his groove against Cy Young-level pitching, and could be set back even further.

If what Torre is trying to do works, Kemp will not only play against, but have success against the Peavys and Harens out there. It's just not going to happen now.

168 That was certainly how Grady Little managed. Jim Tracy did it too, with a nasty little edge that favored not only veterans, but marginal players who happened to be manager's pets. I think it's way too early to say this about Torre. He managed to work quite a few young players into the lineup for the Yankees, even though Steinbrenner's checkbook was always open. And not just in the 90s. Cashman stuck him with several PVLs with unimaginably big contracts over the past few years, but he still was able to develop Cano and Wang.

2008-04-08 11:29:06
179.   D4P
175
Yeah. While they have access to information we don't have access to, a lot of routinely access information many of them choose not to.
2008-04-08 11:32:40
180.   fiddlestick
I'm really interested to see how Billingsley does the first time through the order. If he's expecting AZ to attack fastballs early in the count like they did last night, he might get too fine, get behind and have a pile of pitches early.
2008-04-08 11:34:31
181.   Lexinthedena
180 Bills fastball is a lot different that of Loaiza. I hope they attack hist fastballs early in the count. Look what Johnny Cueto did to them.
2008-04-08 11:35:54
182.   fiddlestick
Yankees might move A-Rod to short if Jeter is going to miss time. Huge fantasy implications.
2008-04-08 11:36:14
183.   Disabled List
AARGH. I had a big long response to 155 typed out, then I refreshed the page and lost the whole thing.

I can't type it all again, I have to get some work done at some point today. But I agree with the general idea in here that Ned Colletti's research into coin-weighting and probability leaves a lot to be desired.

2008-04-08 11:37:38
184.   fiddlestick
181- I agree with you. I hope he just trusts his stuff and goes after them.
2008-04-08 11:37:47
185.   fanerman
171 I think it's a fair opinion to give Torre the benefit of the doubt (for now) with handling Kemp and accurately valuing Kemp and Pierre's abilities. It's only been 7 games. I don't think that's resigning or conceding anything.
2008-04-08 11:37:49
186.   dzzrtRatt
182 One of these days, there is going to be another Black Sox type scandal, driven not by gamblers, but by some very, very serious fantasy players.

How much of fantasy baseball is controlled by the Mob already?

2008-04-08 11:37:51
187.   68elcamino427
181
The Billingsley Fast Ball might look a little bit different--more movement-- to the Diamond Backs batters than what they saw last night from Loaiza, Park, and Proctor:)
2008-04-08 11:39:40
188.   68elcamino427
Ha! Meant 180 , but 181 said the same thing, only quicker amd better.
2008-04-08 11:39:50
189.   Lexinthedena
186 It will happen with Football before it happens in Baseball...
2008-04-08 11:45:14
190.   jasonungar07
159 you had me till this part:

Using him as a sacrificial lamb in three games the Dodgers didn't figure to win anyway is possibly a brilliant move, even though it did not equate to "putting the best squad on the field."

I just don't think they didn't think they could win. The rest of your points were well taken.

2008-04-08 11:46:06
191.   fiddlestick
Wayne Fontes totally didn't have Barry Sanders on any of his fantasy teams. He did, however, have his otherwise useless fullbacks who'd routinely score all the touchdowns unless Barry broke one from 40.
2008-04-08 11:46:08
192.   DRomo
I have thought for a while that Kemp is not quite ready for the big leagues but if he is here play him. Not just when he is hot.Let him work through a slump. He has a lot to learn about the game not just hitting but running bases and catching flyballs too. I dont see how Juan Pierre is a better option. He has all the tools to be a star but if we can not give him experience then send him down so he can play everyday!

Also what about James McDonald as a 5th starter? I am suprised he didnt get more of a look this spring. The kid can deal.

2008-04-08 11:50:49
193.   Ken Noe
A psychologist once told me that each person's actions are based on individual, conscious or unconscious expectations of positive results. The problem is that what makes sense to one person may look like madness to the rest of us, whether it's avoiding stepping on sidewalk cracks to protect Mom's back or murder-suicide. All GMs make deals because they think they'll help the club, but one point of Moneyball was that some of the criteria being used was madness, ie, "the face." My concern with Ned from the get-go is that he learned his criteria at the feet of Brian Sabean, who was after all the other major suitor for JP. PVLs, win now, Gonzo, Lugo, Loaiza, sticking by Pierre--all hint at who the teacher was. And then he went to work for a novice owner with a short leash who just fired the other hero of Moneyball while trying to keep up with Arte Moreno. The question is, can NedCo recognize the madness in his behavior and change his definition of what a positive result is? Maybe he's starting to--I think Sabean trades Loney and Kemp last winter, for example. But we can't know for sure for awhile now.
2008-04-08 11:52:37
194.   Lexinthedena
Sabean hasn't had a Loney or Kemp for a very long time. He did have a Fransisco Liriano thought, so your probably right.
2008-04-08 12:00:19
195.   dzzrtRatt
193 That post reads like a novel or a movie treatment.

You left out a few major characters: Logan White, Kim Ng, Jamie McCourt, Bill Plaschke and Jeff Kent.

But you've captured the essence of the story. Ned's an old-school guy, and expected that when his turn to be #1 came along, he would run things the old-school way. But then, his confidence in old-school thinking started to waver. White and Ng started telling him about the prospects' higher upsides, using some fancy numbers that Sabean told Ned didn't mean anything, but the way White says it.... Meanwhile, mentor Sabean hits a rough patch, where all his pretty dreams came crashing down. Maybe everything he thought he knew was wrong.

Meanwhile, Kent and Jamie meet late at night at a small bar in Little Tokyo, one of those bars where they don't enforce the no-smoking laws, and they start to make plans...for the Dodgers, and for each other....

2008-04-08 12:00:39
196.   DRomo
If Sabean keeps his young pitching intact that will show he has learned something.

As for us we need to do better in our off season aquisitions. Who was our last big name free agent that worked out.

2008-04-08 12:02:46
197.   Jon Weisman
196 - I'll say Rafael Furcal, a key element in a playoff team in 2006.
2008-04-08 12:04:45
198.   D4P
Who was our last big name free agent that worked out

I don't totally blame that on us. Signing big name free agents (presumably to long-term, big buck contracts) seems to "work out" less often than not.

That's not to absolve Ned of responsibility for his acquisitions.

2008-04-08 12:06:27
199.   cargill06
speaking of fantasy, my pitching staff is loaded. if oliver perez holds on for the win my starting pitchers this year looks like this
6-1, 35 k, 0.92 ERA, 0.86 WHIP and a CG.
2008-04-08 12:16:49
200.   kinbote
100 You will also need some kind of meaningful and perhaps symbolic object or photograph to look at intently immediately prior to stepping off the stool.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-04-08 12:18:07
201.   Ken Noe
195 Since I was already approaching novel length in the post, I cut it short. But since we're listing characters, don't forget the fired manager/matinee idol, looking for redemption in the west.
2008-04-08 12:20:53
202.   regfairfield
196 I'd actually argue that ditching Cain and Lincecum for a farm system right now would be a good thing. Right now, the Giants are three good drafts away (a very tough thing for the Giants to do) from being able to rebuild. At this rate, neither guy will be on a good Giant team.

J.D. Drew, Derek Lowe, Nomar (the first time) and Jeff Kent have all also been pretty good for us.

2008-04-08 12:21:18
203.   Humma Kavula
Just joining in, so I'll make a completely irrelevant comment.

The Greatest Offense the World Has Ever Known is losing to the Bostons, two-zip, in the fourth.

2008-04-08 12:22:55
204.   Eric Enders
Yeah, the big-name free agent signing is usually a game that's rigged against you. But despite that, we have the following unqualified successes in the last four years:

Lowe
Kent
Furcal
Nomar (the initial one-year signing was a spectacular success; it was Ned's extension that was bad)

And the following failures:
Pierre

And the following on which the jury is still out but is probably a failure:
Schmidt

And the following on which the jury is still out but appear likely to be successful:
Kuroda
Jones

2008-04-08 12:29:39
205.   Kevin Lewis
Jon, I know you have better things to worry about, but you still have Ethier listed in the bench on the sidebar...and Nomar is starting
2008-04-08 12:29:45
206.   Eric Enders
202 It's virtually guaranteed that Cain and Lincecum will have reached their free agent eligibility by the time the Giants become competitive again. Trading them for a bounty would be painful for Giants fans, but would be the right thing to do.

(Then again, that bounty they got for Francisco Liriano wasn't so hot.)

2008-04-08 12:34:32
207.   Jon Weisman
205 - I'll never need a reminder that the sidebar isn't updated. It always isn't :)
2008-04-08 12:35:26
208.   D4P
This is sidebar item that caught my eye:

Dodger home record: 2-1 (.667)
When Jon attended: 1-0 (1.000)
When Jon didn't: 1-0 (.500)

2008-04-08 12:35:53
209.   Penarol1916
206. I thought that Boof Bonsor was the star prospect that the Giants gave up in that trade and that Lirano was an afterthought?
2008-04-08 12:36:59
210.   Eric Enders
Jon, the new sidebar feature is awesome, by the way. As is the rest of the sidebar, actually. If you're ever tempted to give up on it, don't. It's very useful.
2008-04-08 12:37:39
211.   fanerman
210 There's a new sidebar feature?
2008-04-08 12:37:47
212.   madmac
208 he was neither here nor there
2008-04-08 12:38:49
213.   regfairfield
Carlos Villanueva is another former Giants prospect given up for nothing.
2008-04-08 12:39:21
214.   bhsportsguy
206 The Giants signed Cain to a pretty good (for them) extension through his first 2 arbitration years with a club option based on performance and health for the last year prior to Cain's FA eligibility.

I don't think they can trade Cain/Lincecum unless somewhat offers them what Arizona gave Oakland for Haren.

2008-04-08 12:40:39
215.   bhsportsguy
208 Don't bother Jon, he's getting his game face on for the real Championship game tonight.
2008-04-08 12:41:22
216.   Reddog
159
I agree. Torre is smart. He's dealing with this situation in the best way he can. He knows Kemp's potential. He knows Pierre sucks. So giving Pierre these last three starts pacifies Pierre and his agent to an extent - as well as Colletti - and these were games where Kemp probably would have continued to look bad. Meanwhile Kemp is taking extra batting practice and working with the hitting coach to work out his overswinging at bad balls.

Now, Torre can start Kemp the next two weeks, and if he breaks out and starts hitting, he's the regular left-fielder.

Pierre will not take well to riding the bench and will ask to be traded by the all-star break. And if they eat part of his contract, maybe they can get someone who can help the team for him.

2008-04-08 12:41:50
217.   madmac
210 game by game heroes?
2008-04-08 12:47:54
218.   still bevens
213 Don't forget they also traded interim closer Jeremy Accardo to Toronto for Shea Hillenbrand at the deadline in 06.
2008-04-08 12:49:31
219.   fanerman
217 Ah yes of course.
2008-04-08 12:54:04
220.   Jon Weisman
182 - Betemit starting at short today.
2008-04-08 12:56:24
221.   MC Safety
I never noticed that plant your flag thingy. Pretty cool.
2008-04-08 12:57:33
222.   silverwidow
204 I'd like to add Gonzo to the "failure" list (for reasons we all know).
2008-04-08 12:57:43
223.   MollyKnight
I don't want to see any more sad faces in these parts. We're 4-3 and we could be 0-7 like the Tigers right now. Perspective, people! The cream always rises to the top. It's only a matter of time before Kemp supplants Pierre and the Minatour fills the #5 slot in the rotation. And then it will be like all of our birthdays wrapped into one.
2008-04-08 13:05:37
224.   Eric Enders
Melancholy Molly must be on vacation.
2008-04-08 13:06:40
225.   D4P
Melancholy Molly

I prefer "MelanMolly"

2008-04-08 13:07:38
226.   Disabled List
She's been replaced by Mollyanna.
2008-04-08 13:08:52
227.   Eric Enders
She's right, though. The stuff we're worrying about right now is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, and likely to correct itself in time. The future is bright, and the future is now. Things could be a heck of a lot worse. Like we could be the Pirates or the Giants.
2008-04-08 13:11:36
228.   bhsportsguy
Best Los Angeles Dodger Game on this Date

April 8, 1996 - Atlanta @ Los Angeles, Dodgers win 1-0.

The 1996 home opener featured a pitching duel between reigning Rookie of the Year winner Hideo Nomo against 1995 World Series hero Tom Glavine.

Nomo pitched a complete game 3 hit shutout, walked 5 and struck out 6. The Dodgers lone run scored on an RBI single by Raul Mondesi in the 3rd. Glavine went 7 innings, struck out 9, walked 2 and gave up 5 hits.

2008-04-08 13:12:48
229.   fanerman
223 Amen!
2008-04-08 13:13:18
230.   Ken Noe
227 When I was a kid, all my buddies were Pirate fans because of the nearby farm team. Had it not been for my grandmother, I probably would have been one too. Thanks, Ma.
2008-04-08 13:13:36
231.   LogikReader
228

You know what? That might get mentioned in Vin's daily "This Date in Dodger History" tonight.

2008-04-08 13:14:51
232.   D4P
Had it not been for my grandmother, I probably would have been one too

Actually, had it not been for your grandmother, you wouldn't have been.

2008-04-08 13:16:07
233.   Eric Enders
When Vinny does that segment in the middle of the game, about 50% of the time it's obviously been taped beforehand and 50% of the time it's done live during the game. I always wondered how and why they decide which ones to do live.
2008-04-08 13:18:12
234.   MC Safety
Fernando torres just put Liverpool ahead in the 70th minute on a brilliant strike. Arsenal need to pull a rabbit out of a hat, or this season is over.
2008-04-08 13:18:49
235.   bhsportsguy
231 So are you saying my 5 minutes a day perusing through Retrosheet is wasted?
2008-04-08 13:31:05
236.   LogikReader
235

Sometimes I like to predict "This Date in Dodger History."

Vin might also go with Chan Ho's debut, which happened on the same date, in 1994

http://www.nationalpastime.com/

2008-04-08 13:32:07
237.   MC Safety
Arsenal tie in the 84th only to give up a penalty kick immediately after. Gerrard makes em pay 3-2 Poo.
2008-04-08 13:32:53
238.   LogikReader
Hey, you know what the Tigers are reminding of?

The 1999 Dodgers!

High expectations, big signings, finished below .500

2008-04-08 13:33:11
239.   LogikReader
Reminding me of I should say.
2008-04-08 13:34:06
240.   ToyCannon
Who is going to stop the Oriole juggernaut?
2008-04-08 13:34:39
241.   bhsportsguy
236 I guarantee tomorrow, April 9, this date in Dodger history will be April 9, 1981.
2008-04-08 13:36:22
242.   Hallux Valgus
240 What is worse, getting blown out by the Orioles, or getting beaten up by a baby?

It's not as easy as you might think, as only one of those involves ging up four hits to Aubrey Huff.

2008-04-08 13:36:40
243.   regfairfield
238 The Tigers have more than one pitcher.
2008-04-08 13:37:28
244.   cargill06
if they tigers lose they will now be on pace to lose 162 games.
2008-04-08 13:37:30
245.   schoffle
Doubt anyone is watching it, but I know that some are interest in the Aresnal Liverpool game as I am, either way I the live commentary just read

82' Aresenal don't look likely to score
83' GOAL FOR ARSENAL

And now Gerrard scores to retake the lead YES!!!!!

2008-04-08 13:37:56
246.   Ken Noe
232 Shouldn't you be checking your endnotes? ;-)
2008-04-08 13:39:20
247.   fanerman
245 At least one other person is watching it.
2008-04-08 13:41:00
248.   D4P
246
Noe, Ken.
2008-04-08 13:41:52
249.   schoffle
Yes at least one and I believe a reader in the middle east too. But I may be the only one happy with the results
2008-04-08 13:42:03
250.   ToyCannon
243
In the rotation but the bullpen is in tatters, so when they finally do start hitting, I'm not sure they can hold enough leads to get back in this thing.
You would have thought that Hull would have been more interesting to the Tigers then to the Red Sox.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-04-08 13:44:01
251.   KAYVMON
237 Even though Im a Newcastle fan, you gotta feel bad for Arsenal losing their season that way. But, I guess I didn't feel bad when the Padres lost their season on that Holliday play last year, so good luck Liverpool.
2008-04-08 13:44:14
252.   Marty
240 The Orioles.
2008-04-08 13:45:13
253.   old dodger fan
Over the past few days I have seen a few comments to the effect of pacifying JP's agent (see 216 above and there have been others). Why would we care about his agent? What's he going to do, threaten to retire?
2008-04-08 13:46:45
254.   MC Safety
249 What a gift on the penalty to Gerrard. First Hleb is robbed blind the first leg, now Liverpool receives a gift to put them over the top. Some very questionable officiating to say the least.
2008-04-08 13:47:47
255.   Kevin Lewis
Molly,

I am not a big sci fi fan, but I have really enjoyed Battlestar. It is worth giving a chance.

2008-04-08 13:48:12
256.   ToyCannon
252
Ding Ding Ding
2008-04-08 13:49:19
257.   schoffle
254

Missed your comment in 237, did you get to see the game or were you just following on the net?

2008-04-08 13:50:23
258.   fanerman
I'm in Season 2 of Battlestar Galactica. It's pretty good. So far Season 1 has been better than 2, but I hear 2 is supposed to get better later.
2008-04-08 13:52:54
259.   regfairfield
250 Yeah, losing your two best relievers will do that.
2008-04-08 13:53:12
260.   MC Safety
254 Whoops, the penalty given to Babel, which Gerrard took.

249 Losing Flamini in the midfield absolutely killed us. Gilberto has been in many battles, but he is not the player he used to be. It's about time for Gilberto to hang em up.

2008-04-08 13:53:48
261.   madmac
so the governator is in town and I just missed him at Starbucks by couple minutes.
2008-04-08 13:54:11
262.   Josh Wilker
A former Dodger finally got his well-deserved moment at Fenway today. Here's some video that made me cry in my cubicle:

http://tinyurl.com/575q2j

2008-04-08 13:55:04
263.   ToyCannon
258
I rented BG, based on comments here several years back. We enjoyed the series and now need to rent the last few years to catch back up.
2008-04-08 13:57:41
264.   ToyCannon
262
Thanks for the link. That was awesome.
2008-04-08 13:58:41
265.   Peanuts in My Shoes
261 Did you try the new brew today?
2008-04-08 13:59:58
266.   madmac
255 258 I really like BSG. Great show
2008-04-08 14:01:04
267.   MC Safety
257 I was following on Gamecast, but I had a cousin in law (who was watching in England and is sort of a Poo fan, but mainly supports Stoke City) give me some updates. He said the run Walcott made was absolutely brilliant, and the penalty gifted to Babel wasn't even close to the non-penalty Kuyt pull down in the first leg.
2008-04-08 14:01:20
268.   madmac
265 I just got a decaf drip, not sure what blend it was
2008-04-08 14:02:46
269.   schoffle
260

Yes but Toure was called for the foul and he has had a great year.

2008-04-08 14:06:01
270.   Marty
262 That was nice to see. Thanks I've always loved Buckner and hated to see him leave the Dodgers.
2008-04-08 14:09:10
271.   GobiasIndustries
262
Super sweet. Long overdue.
2008-04-08 14:12:17
272.   cargill06
just how bad has andruw been?

last 598 AB's

Jones .217/.306/.401

Patterson .267/.305/.417

2008-04-08 14:14:46
273.   Josh Wilker
I think the Red Sox have been trying to get Buckner back for a while, but he understandably wanted to avoid revisiting the past, which got pretty ugly for a while there thanks to some real idiot fans. Most Red Sox fans have always liked him and understood that A) the Red Sox wouldn't have been close in '86 without him, B) the error could have happened to anyone, and C) game 6 had already spiraled way out of control and was almost certainly doomed anyway. I'm just glad that today maybe buried all the bad feelings.
2008-04-08 14:15:34
274.   bhsportsguy
Yankees facing pitch count issues. Hughes has already thrown 56 pitches in 2 innings.
2008-04-08 14:15:46
275.   ROC
Attempt to Rickroll the 2008 Mets possibly thwarted by a cheap move:
http://tinyurl.com/6a7suf

Digg should get credit, not Fark.

2008-04-08 14:16:42
276.   bhsportsguy
273 It helps when you win 2 of the last 4 years.
2008-04-08 14:16:53
277.   madmac
262 well it's about time
2008-04-08 14:17:00
278.   regfairfield
275 On the one hand, the Internet and the real world should be completely different places. On the other hand, Never Gonna Give You Up is some how the best song on that list.
2008-04-08 14:18:19
279.   madmac
276 yeah, was wondering if that would have happend if they hadn't finally won the WS, not once, but twice.
2008-04-08 14:21:22
280.   jujibee
According to ESPN, the Giants are looking for a left handed hitting first baseman. Any thoughts on how Juan would do there? Sabean was looking to sign him last offseason for about the same $/year, he wouldn't, couldn't be that..... Well here's for wishful thinking, he did give up Nathan and Liriano for AJ.
2008-04-08 14:21:39
281.   Josh Wilker
279 : In 1990 Buckner (after playing for the Royals for a while) made the Red Sox and got a huge ovation on opening day from the fans, so there has been a desire even before the WS wins on the part of Red Sox fans to fill his ears with cheers.
2008-04-08 14:21:51
282.   ToyCannon
Lots of dead Red Sox fans never forgave him.
2008-04-08 14:22:11
283.   MC Safety
269 What does his great year have to do with a gifted penalty? Arsenal didn't get a call on a clear cut penalty in which the ref was literally 5-10 feet away, yet Babel gets that call he got today. If Arsenal got that call the first leg, today is a much different game. Maybe Sir Alex Ferguson's words about Benitez influencing refs rings true.

And Flamini is a very important player in the Arsenal midfield. He's been money all season, no wonder Juventus is trying to pry him away. When he went down it lessened our quality immensely.

2008-04-08 14:23:42
284.   ROC
278 Oh, I'd feel different if I didn't irrationally despise the Mets.

I also agree, the other choices are poor. It may be a Win-Win if Rick prevails.

2008-04-08 14:24:03
285.   Eric Enders
273 "Most Red Sox fans have always liked him and understood that A) the Red Sox wouldn't have been close in '86 without him"

Isn't that just sympathy/nostalgia talking? Buckner in '86 was horrendous both offensively and defensively, 100 RBI or no.

2008-04-08 14:26:26
286.   Lexinthedena
285 What was his average with runners in scoring position that year?.....maybe he was clutch throughout the season.
2008-04-08 14:27:19
287.   Josh Wilker
285 : You might have a point there, but even so he did get the rally started in Game 5 of the series against the Angels, when the Red Sox were all but dead. Millar is revered in part because he came through in a similar situation against the Yanks in '04. Small sample size, obviously, but such are the things that make fans cheer for a guy.
2008-04-08 14:27:51
288.   dzzrtRatt
273 ...not to mention the fact that Buckner shouldn't have been on the field at that point in the game. I forget his name, but they had a late inning defensive guy who should've been out there. Buckner's age and leg problems were not a secret to the manager or fans.

My dislike of the Red Sox began right then. Although I was rooting for the Mets in that series -- ancient allegience -- I was with most of America in seeing the Red Sox as cute, long-suffering, respecters of tradition and otherwise worthy of esteem. That episode exposed the underlying ugliness of that endearing Jimmy Fallon facade. I would hope a similar bad play from a good player would be forgiven much more quickly in LA.

(On the other hand, I'm going to be in Boston for the next few days, and if I could somehow get a game ticket, I'm there.)

2008-04-08 14:28:51
289.   Josh Wilker
286 : Without looking, I think he was a little better in the clutch than not, but his RBIs were largely a function of hitting behind Boggs and sometimes Evans, two OBP machines.
2008-04-08 14:28:57
290.   Eric Enders
286 "What was his average with runners in scoring position that year?....."

.645 OPS with RISP, as opposed to .733 for the season.

2008-04-08 14:28:58
291.   bhsportsguy
287 It could have all been avoided if Mauch keeps Witt in the game in the 9th. :)
2008-04-08 14:29:12
292.   Kevin Lewis
I just watched Fever Pitch again. It does look like the pitcher wasn't even covering in time for Buckner. Of course, that doesn't make the run come in, but maybe he was rushing to make the play himself?
2008-04-08 14:30:22
293.   natepurcell
I voted for Rick.
2008-04-08 14:31:26
294.   underdog
Nice to see the Buckner salute. That cheers me.

280 Don't think he's ever played first base. And anyway, yes, wishful thinking. Beane already has too many albatrosses (bad contracts) around his neck to take that one on, even if LA did pay some of the remaining contract. They could give us Travis Hafner back. Heh.

2008-04-08 14:31:33
295.   natepurcell
Someone should sue the Mets for unfair conduct. Astley won!
2008-04-08 14:33:30
296.   regfairfield
294 You somehow managed to cross up about four teams there.
2008-04-08 14:34:03
297.   schoffle
283

I was wondering why you were (seemingly) blaming Gilberto, I figured you thought the penalty was on him. Also honestly I find it quite surprising that you are so using Flamini for the Gunners (no I don't need to call other teams insulting names) downfall, yes he is a nice player but .... Anyway I am sure you know your team better than I, as it is I can hardly find time to follow Liverpool, but didn't Arsenal have an easy early schedule that contributed to the fantastic start?

2008-04-08 14:35:12
298.   Eric Enders
296 So what you're saying is that the Dodgers shouldn't trade Juan Pierre to Billy Beane in exchange for the Giants' Travis Hafner?
2008-04-08 14:35:45
299.   Andrew Shimmin
Kemp sat for three days. What's different, now, about him? What changed?

When he starts hitting again, I don't see any reason to guess that it's because of Torre's mind-magic. Kemp's going to hit because he's good at hitting. He was yesterday, and the day before, too.

2008-04-08 14:37:54
300.   cargill06
274 jeez, what's it at now?
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-04-08 14:39:02
301.   dzzrtRatt
285 ,289 At least he drove 'em in!

The RBI might not be the most meaningful stat invented, but 102 RBIs reflects something a wee bit less than "horrendous."

2008-04-08 14:40:32
302.   bryanf
262 That was a really cool moment. Thanks for the link.
2008-04-08 14:41:44
303.   MC Safety
278 I thought it was going to be a cover of Jerry Butler's Never Gonna Give You Up at first. That song is pretty bad.
2008-04-08 14:42:15
304.   Humma Kavula
The World Champions: 5

The Greatest Offense the World Has Ever Known: 0

And TGOtWHEK has yet to win a game.

2008-04-08 14:42:33
305.   guy clinch
I'm new here!
301- Buckner was solidly mediocre at the plate (97 ops+) and I'm sure a butcher in the field in 1986.
2008-04-08 14:43:15
306.   68elcamino427
Billy Buckshot, 22 seasons, wow.
Thanks for the link Josh, that was great.
I've read a few articles scattered over the years of the difficult time Buckner and his family had dealing with--the moment--.
The guy had a super career. What a hitter.
2008-04-08 14:43:56
307.   regfairfield
305 That's pretty much the definition of horrendous right there.
2008-04-08 14:47:04
308.   Eric Enders
301 I think you can drive in 102 runs and be horrendous. It doesn't happen too often because it requires a very specific set of circumstances. First of all, you have to have a manager dumb enough to play the guy every day. Then you have to have some outstanding teammates and be in the right place at the right time. Like batting behind Wade Boggs and Dwight Evans. A random Quadruple-A player would likely have posted a similar or better RBI total than Buckner, given the same circumstances.
2008-04-08 14:48:40
309.   68elcamino427
308
You're joking, right?
2008-04-08 14:49:07
310.   LogikReader
Tigers Thoughts might be on the verge of a riot if the Red Sox sweep this week.
2008-04-08 14:49:15
311.   D4P
299
Keep your Arizona-ey "Play the best young players every day" idears to yerself.
2008-04-08 14:49:31
312.   madmac
I would hope a similar bad play from a good player would be forgiven much more quickly in LA

I really don't understand hating on any player based on their talent. Attitude and how the player carries themself should determine that. It's not really their fault they aren't any good. Just like JP should not be villanized because he is not very good.

2008-04-08 14:52:45
313.   fanerman
However poorly or well he performed in the 1986 season, Bill Buckner never deserved all that scrutiny, so good day to him.
2008-04-08 14:53:35
314.   Eric Enders
309 No, I'm not joking. Buckner was basically a replacement level player that year, and that's probably being generous. The definition of a replacement level player is that one can easily find a freely available talent (i.e. an AAAA hitter) who would give you the same quality of performance.
2008-04-08 14:54:06
315.   Humma Kavula
310 I do have empathy for Tigers fans. They had to endure 2003, in which they were horrible. They got 2006 to balance the books. Then so much hype entering the season, and now this.

Seven games means just about nothing when you play 162. It is likely that they will turn it around and be contenders. Mocking this team as I do is a cheap shot -- actually, I agree that they should play very tough all season long. But still: to be a Tiger fan, facing feast and famine...

2008-04-08 14:54:41
316.   regfairfield
314 He VORPed 12.2 that year, so he wasn't absolutely useless offensively. His defense just brought him to that level.
2008-04-08 14:55:18
317.   underdog
Yikes. Sorry, sorry, I hadn't had lunch yet - it's been a long day already! Y'all knew I meant Sabean (not Sabeane or Beane or Bean or Bene or Bill Buckner)

And Travis Hafner would be nice, wouldn't he. But Travis Denker isn't quite at the same level, I suppose.

Sigh, I guess I'll slink back to the newsletter dungeon now.

2008-04-08 14:57:00
318.   underdog
My Tiger fan colleague still looks pretty morose about their start, and given their history it's hard to blame him even if he was overly cocky before the season started. However, his having won entry to the World Series of Poker this summer eased the pain quite a bit this week.

Okay, really, back to the salt mines with me, as you were, or weren't.

2008-04-08 14:57:13
319.   bhsportsguy
306 I don't want to say one man's pain is worse than anothers but there was certainly one other player whose life took to the worse due to the what happened in the 1986 baseball playoffs.

Donnie Moore certainly had other problems, mental illness, financial difficulties and just being cut from the game he loved but certainly you cannot discount how much of an impact one pitch made in his life.

2008-04-08 14:58:09
320.   KG16
313 - I remember someone on ESPN once pointing out that for all the grief that Buckner got, the entire city of Boston seemed to forget that there was still a Game 7 to play. Same with Fisk's homerun against the Red. And possibly the Baby Skyhook (though I can't quite remember if that shot clinched the title or just won the game).
2008-04-08 14:59:11
321.   MC Safety
297 Flamini plays a huge midfield role in Arsenal's passing attack. I'm not making excuses, it is what it is. Gilberto, honestly, isn't half the player the Flamster is.

I'd be careful dismissing Arsenal's fast start. We had Van Persie up front scoring like a mad man at the beginning of the season. Van Persie come up with a thigh injury, and Eduardo stepped in beautifully until that ogre Martin Taylor broke his shin in half. If it weren't for those two very costly injuries, I have no doubts Arsenal would have fared better. You can't lose two world class strikers (don't forget about Rosicky too) like we did and just expect us to maintain that early season form. Arsenal were dismissed early on as Henry left over the summer, but Arsene Wenger showed why he is one of the longest tenured managers in the EPL. Arsenal are very young, they WILL be a force next season.

2008-04-08 15:00:51
322.   kinbote
Phillip Hughes pulled after throwing 87 pitches in 3 innings.
2008-04-08 15:02:26
323.   underdog
317 Come to think of it, maybe the Dodgers should trade Pierre for Travis Bickle.
2008-04-08 15:03:18
324.   schoffle
321

Well best of luck with ManU next (or this?) weekend.

2008-04-08 15:04:14
325.   Eric Enders
"However poorly or well he performed in the 1986 season, Bill Buckner never deserved all that scrutiny"

That I agree on.

Actually, Buckner had a really weird career. He spent most of it either being hailed as a star or vilified as a goat, when really he deserved neither designation. It's almost like the error was some sort of karmic payback for all those years when he was acclaimed as a really good player but actually wasn't. He was just kind of a solidly below average player who was viewed as a star because his only baseball skill happened also to be the most overvalued skill: hitting .300.

Just so I make it clear that I'm not declaring this Dump on Bill Buckner Day, I was really glad to see the way he was received in Boston today. The man virtually had to go into hiding for 20 years and I don't wish that on anyone. However, the pendulum now appears poised to swing too far in the other direction, with people identifying Buckner as an outstanding (or even a good) player. He wasn't.

2008-04-08 15:05:43
326.   bhsportsguy
320 Magic's shot won Game 4, which gave the Lakers a 3-1 lead with 2 the last 2 games (6&7) back in LA. So it didn't win the series but it pretty much gave the Lakers the series. They mailed in Game 5 in Boston then won Game 6.

The same could be said for Gibson's home run, there were still a whole series left to play. But there was a story at that time that either before or after Game 1, Reggie Jackson was telling people that the A's needed to win Game 1 because Mr. Hershiser was pitching next game and the A's would have a hard time beating him.

2008-04-08 15:06:27
327.   guy clinch
323- Talk about a clubhouse cancer!
2008-04-08 15:07:28
328.   fiddlestick
323 Mets already made that mistake. Had him rooming w/ Duaner Sanchez if I recall.
2008-04-08 15:10:02
329.   KG16
326 - funny thing about post season series' - a lot of time they are over before they are over. There are simply times when something goes wrong on a karmic level and a team simply has no chance, even if they were deemed the "better team" prior.

As they say, that's why they play the games

2008-04-08 15:10:07
330.   MC Safety
324 Thanks, we will need it. I'm pulling for you guys to beat Chelsea, fwiw. I'm a fan of the Dutch, so you guys aren't that bad... : )
2008-04-08 15:10:24
331.   Kevin Lewis
Andrew, I just read your entry from yesterday, thinking it was about tonight.

Needless to say, do we actually know that Pierre is sitting tonight?

2008-04-08 15:11:44
332.   regfairfield
331 Yes, we do.

Dodgers:

Furcal. SS
Kemp. RF
Ethier. LF
Kent. 2B
Loney. 1B
Jones. CF
Bennett. C
DeWitt. 3B
Billingsley. P

2008-04-08 15:12:25
333.   bhsportsguy
Dodgers miss a chance to have 6 former 51's or Suns play tonight.

I thought Russell might skip tomorrow to give him about 3 days off but tonight the backup catcher gets to play.

Furcal. SS
Kemp. RF
Ethier. LF
Kent. 2B
Loney. 1B
Jones. CF
Bennett. C
DeWitt. 3B
Billingsley. P

2008-04-08 15:12:46
334.   MC Safety
Go Royals!!!
2008-04-08 15:13:08
335.   D4P
What kind of crazy platoon has one player bat 2nd, and the other player bat 8th?
2008-04-08 15:14:39
336.   bhsportsguy
John Sterling (Yankees radio broadcaster) just told me that I will know Billy Butler and Alex Gordon's names by the end of this year.

He did describe a throw by Damon to home plate as a "flyball."

2008-04-08 15:16:27
337.   silverwidow
Ugh, I don't like Bennett calling for Bills. But I guess with tomorrow's day game, they had to rest Martin some time.
2008-04-08 15:16:36
338.   68elcamino427
319
Yes, Moore is tragic case. As was Lyman Bostock--who was at the wrong place at the wrong time--.
One of the articles on Buckner that I read several years ago stands out. Seems like it referenced him living in relative obscurity somewhere in Idaho and his kids being in high school and still getting ragged on.
Life is not fair.
Today was a nice day for Buckner and I'm happy for him for that.
2008-04-08 15:16:42
339.   Eric Enders
So Gary Bennett does exist.
2008-04-08 15:17:17
340.   Marty
Travis Bickle: I'll play anytime, anywhere
Joe Torre: You gonna break my chops? If you're gonna break my chops, you can take it on the arches. Understand?
2008-04-08 15:17:50
341.   Jon Weisman
NPUT - most of it covered in these comments.
2008-04-08 15:18:04
342.   D4P
I shudder to think how bad Gary "Career 64 OPS+" Bennett would have been without the PEDs.

Actually, I guess we'll get to see for ourselves.

2008-04-08 15:19:35
343.   ROC
I didn't realize , Rickroll was successful for a least one game (YouTube link):
http://tinyurl.com/6heqp8

That counts. And winning for the season is still a possibility.

2008-04-08 15:21:54
344.   fiddlestick
Gary Bennett warmed up the pitcher for an inning last night. I took a picture in case it was the only time he ever took the field for LA.

Pee Wee warmed up the pitcher for an inning as well and bounced his throw back to the mound.

2008-04-08 15:49:39
345.   Sac Town Dodger Fan
The first time I have ever had A-Rod on my fantasy team, and today he is 0-4 with 4 K's, 3 of them caught looking.

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