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Five Questions: Los Angeles Dodgers (2007) (Hardball Times)

More Shameless Self-Promotion
2008 Season

Dodger home record: 50-35 (.588)
When Jon attended: 9-5 (.643)
When Jon didn't: 41-30 (.577)

1991-2008

Dodgers at home: 795-635 (.556)
Jon attended: 302-238 (.559)*
Jon didn't: 498-404 (.552)
* includes road games attended

2009 Payroll Worksheet

Current Roster with Estimated 2009 Salaries
(updated November 14)

Most figures are estimates (some are wild estimates) but will be updated as information comes in. Corrections welcome.

More contract details here.

Starting Pitchers (5)
$10,000,000 Hiroki Kuroda
*$475,000 Chad Billingsley
*$415,000 Clayton Kershaw
*$405,000 Eric Stults
*$400,000 James McDonald
*Total: $11,695,000

Bullpen (7)
*$2,500,000 Takashi Saito
*$1,300,000 Scott Proctor
*$1,500,000 Jonathan Broxton
*$425,000 Hong-Chih Kuo
*$420,000 Cory Wade
*$410,000 Ramon Troncoso
*$400,000 Scott Elbert
Total: $6,955,000

Also on 40-man roster
Mario Alvarez
Yhency Brazoban
Greg Miller
Justin Orenduff

Starting Lineup (8)
$17,100,000 Andruw Jones
*$3,000,000 Russell Martin
*$2,500,000 Andre Ethier
*$600,000 Matt Kemp
*$600,000 James Loney
*$500,000 Angel Berroa
*$410,000 Blake DeWitt
*$400,000 Tony Abreu
Total: $25,110,000

Bench (5)
$10,000,000 Juan Pierre
*$600,000 Jason Repko
*$410,000 Delwyn Young
*$400,000 Danny Ardoin
*$400,000 Chin-Lung Hu
Total: $11,810,000
Note: Team can buy out Ozuna's 2009 option for $200,000

Also on 40-man roster
A.J. Ellis
Lucas May
Xavier Paul

Disabled List
$12,000,000 Jason Schmidt

Also Paying ...
$2,000,000 Brad Penny (buyout of $9,000,000 option)
$50,000 Gary Bennett (buyout of $900,000 option)
Note: Kansas City is responsible for $500,000 buyout of Angel Berroa's $5,500,000 option for 2009.

Working total: *$68,020,000

The 2008 Dodgers

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May 21 Game Chat
2008-05-21 18:00
by Jon Weisman
Comments (421)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-05-21 18:23:36
1.   Eric Stephen
I object to Radmanovic being called "Vlade". There's only one Vlade in Laker history.
2008-05-21 18:27:19
2.   fanerman
1 Especially when there are much better alternatives, like "Space Cadet."
2008-05-21 18:37:19
3.   sporky
There's a cycle alert of a certain color in Atlanta.
2008-05-21 18:39:50
4.   gpellamjr
I am currently addicted to R.E.M.'s "Find the River". I find it extremely strange the way I will listen to a song for years and have it of a sudden hit me in a much deeper way.
2008-05-21 18:40:13
5.   Sam DC
Orange alert in ATL. Francoeur needs a double, but I he neeeds a rally (or the Mets to tie it up) to get another at bat I think.
2008-05-21 18:41:19
6.   Sam DC
Actually just a couple more atl baserunners.
2008-05-21 18:43:23
7.   gpellamjr
Now I am listening to the soundtrack from "A Might Wind". It is criminal that "Corn Wine" didn't make the final cut.
2008-05-21 18:44:02
8.   Sam DC
3 Oops -- missed yours.
2008-05-21 18:44:48
9.   Icaros
4

That happens to me a lot.

2008-05-21 18:45:01
10.   Eric Stephen
The TNT player cam isn't very exciting between quarters.

http://www.tnt.tv/sports/nba/playoffs08_live/

2008-05-21 18:45:27
11.   jasonungar07
Eric what would you call him? Mano? RadMan? Vic...?
2008-05-21 18:47:11
12.   Eric Stephen
11
I would go with RadMan just because of the absurdity of it.
2008-05-21 18:48:02
13.   sporky
Arizona lost!
2008-05-21 18:48:25
14.   Eric Stephen
10
The TNT online camera is about a second ahead of my TV.
2008-05-21 18:48:52
15.   gpellamjr
13 Very nice. This is going to be a good night. I can feel it.
2008-05-21 18:49:51
16.   Linkmeister
What determines whether Prime Ticket televises the Dodgers game or whether it's relegated to KCAL? Anyone know?

I'm asking because I heard Vinnie mention it's on KCAL today and that means I don't get it out here on the deep.

2008-05-21 18:53:42
17.   Sam DC
Frenchy batting on the deuce.
2008-05-21 18:54:25
18.   Sam DC
Ixnay on the ycle-cay.
2008-05-21 18:55:04
19.   dzzrtRatt
4 There is so much great music buried on albums that only fans of the given artist pay attention to.

That's partly because music critics seems to have a scornful attitude toward artists who cover songs they didn't write.

I don't know "Find a River" -- I gave up on R.E.M. years ago because I hated "Monster" -- but assuming it's as good as you say, wouldn't it be great if other singers could unearth it and give it more exposure?

I never much enjoyed Linda Ronstadt's versions of Little Feat songs, but she deserves a lot of credit for bringing them new fans.

P.S. Lately I'm re-stuck on Van Morrison. "It's Too Late To Stop Now," a great live album, was recently reissued. Tremendous performance by a singer with no boundaries.

2008-05-21 18:56:29
20.   Eric Stephen
18
Obbay Ouldway Aysay Andstay Ownday.
2008-05-21 18:57:30
21.   Bob Timmermann
20
No I wouldn't. It's just the seventh.
2008-05-21 18:58:23
22.   Linkmeister
19 You didn't like her version of "Willin' "?

Help! I need resuscitation!

2008-05-21 19:01:26
23.   dzzrtRatt
19 I take it back, I do know "Find The River." It's on maybe their best CD, "Automatic for the People." Lovely song. Haven't played that disk for years, but the snippet on iTunes reminded me.
2008-05-21 19:03:05
24.   scareduck
19 - agreed on "Monster". IIRC it was even earlier than that for me.
2008-05-21 19:03:26
25.   MollyKnight
Was American Idol shown live out west?
2008-05-21 19:04:03
26.   dzzrtRatt
22 Linda looked better in short-shorts than Lowell George did. But, no, I think the screaming of the chorus was a bad choice. She gave "Roll Um Easy" the same treatment.

The Byrds have a nice cover of "Willin'" though, from their Clarence White era. And "Truck Stop Girl."

Folks, there was a time when Linda Ronstadt was as hot as Jessica Alba. Or so we thought back in the olden days.

2008-05-21 19:05:11
27.   Bob Timmermann
25
It isn't.
2008-05-21 19:07:13
28.   Eric Stephen
21
'Ohday!
2008-05-21 19:11:18
29.   Marty
23 You were on iTunes??
2008-05-21 19:11:33
30.   Bob Timmermann
It is very windy at Dodger Stadium. Which is extremely unusual.

It's very windy here in South Pasadena, which is also rare.

2008-05-21 19:13:21
31.   Linkmeister
26 Agreed. If others don't believe it, look up her Annie Liebovitz cover on Rolling Stone. I doubt that the full shoot is available online, but I know the cover is.
2008-05-21 19:14:19
32.   scareduck
26 - you had to remind me of that. Man, she used to have nice legs. I saw her about a decade ago, and she had gotten rather, uh, "fluffy", as a friend of mine put it.
2008-05-21 19:14:46
33.   kguy
Is this the 3rd day in a row with the same Dodger lineup? Is that some sort of record?
2008-05-21 19:15:30
34.   Bob Timmermann
I told you it was windy.
2008-05-21 19:15:46
35.   sporky
33 Yes.
2008-05-21 19:17:28
36.   Gen3Blue
LATed again. All I said was Oh dear--only one feed and its the Reds. A few years ago I would have been grateful just to get the game. I guess I still am. I'm already spoiled by the digital/satellite era.
2008-05-21 19:17:46
37.   Bob Timmermann
Man down for Cincinnati!

Hairston's out after on AB.

2008-05-21 19:19:08
38.   Bob Timmermann
Cycle alert canceled in Atlanta.

Stand down.

2008-05-21 19:19:40
39.   Gen3Blue
25 I don't know, but I just saw it and would hate to be a spoiler.
2008-05-21 19:20:42
40.   Bob Timmermann
A Dodger Stadium attendee has emailed me to tell me that this is the windiest day he has ever experienced at Dodger Stadium.
2008-05-21 19:20:45
41.   Gen3Blue
40 but I can tell you the winners first name was a form of David.
2008-05-21 19:23:18
42.   Gen3Blue
The announcers catch up with Bob. About the wind.
2008-05-21 19:25:36
43.   dianagramr
I keep moving Francoeur in and out of my fantasy lineup, and he then kills me either way .... sigh.
2008-05-21 19:25:40
44.   scareduck
40 - I wonder how far back the Dodgers' wind data goes. Usually they at least tell you what the wind is like at the beginning of the game, but that of course can change.
2008-05-21 19:27:03
45.   scareduck
"Any ball hit in the air tonight will be an E ride at Disneyland..."

Heh.

2008-05-21 19:27:18
46.   Bob Timmermann
The wind is blowing from the south, which is really the only way for it to be windy at Dodger Stadium with the way the hills around the stadium are shaped.
2008-05-21 19:27:38
47.   dianagramr
"Against the Wind" .... a decent Bob Seger song
2008-05-21 19:29:41
48.   Andrew Shimmin
The shift backfires again.
2008-05-21 19:29:58
49.   Eric Stephen
Insert obligatory "any other LF and Dunn's out" comment.
2008-05-21 19:30:22
50.   dianagramr
umm .... where is the usual 40,000 at Dodger Stadium?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-05-21 19:31:00
51.   Bob Timmermann
50
Lakers playoff game tonight.
2008-05-21 19:31:18
52.   Eric Stephen
I see bryanf!
2008-05-21 19:31:18
53.   Icaros
50

The green necklace.

2008-05-21 19:31:23
54.   Gen3Blue
Cueto's the kind of young pitcher who shows up and gives the Dodgers fits. It's not surprising looking at his peripherals and minor league record. I hope Kuroda lasts a while here. Now two pretty lucky bloops.
2008-05-21 19:32:22
55.   Bob Timmermann
Actually Cueto is the sort of pitcher who gives most teams fits.
2008-05-21 19:32:49
56.   Eric Stephen
52
He's directly over the "66-DOD" in "866-DODGERS" ad behind home plate. Blue shirt, Dodger blue cap.
2008-05-21 19:32:55
57.   Andrew Shimmin
It was down under 40K last night too, though. Under 35K, I think. Made me think about going out to a game. Usually I have to wait till August, when the team is out of contention for that.
2008-05-21 19:33:30
58.   dianagramr
51

sometimes I really do need to engage my brain before posting

(palm to forehead)

2008-05-21 19:33:42
59.   kguy
49 Well with the wind, I think most stuff hit his way today might get blown to Bison.
2008-05-21 19:34:11
60.   Eric Stephen
I would hate bryanf thanks to good ol' jealousy, but it will be fun to make fun of his in-game antics and whatever food he eats tonight.
2008-05-21 19:34:39
61.   scareduck
Bako hits back-o to the pitcher. Double play ensues!
2008-05-21 19:34:51
62.   Gen3Blue
Cueto does seem to have a gopher ball problem, so we can hope.
2008-05-21 19:37:11
63.   dianagramr
56

he looks so lifelike!

2008-05-21 19:38:28
64.   scareduck
62 - Dodgers tied for 14th in the NL with the Nats for team homers. Home run attack seems unlikely.
2008-05-21 19:39:13
65.   scareduck
64 - http://tinyurl.com/4pe94w
2008-05-21 19:40:45
66.   scareduck
62 - also unsurprisingly 7 of Cueto's 12 HR's allowed are at home.
2008-05-21 19:40:57
67.   Eric Stephen
0-2 pitches mean nothing to The Bison™
2008-05-21 19:41:24
68.   Bob Timmermann
Vin's story about Joe Pepitone's would be home run in the 1963 World Series checks out. News accounts of the time don't say it was blown back by the wind, but Fairly did go back to the bullpen fence and most people thought the ball was going out.

It was the final out in Game 3. The Dodgers won 1-0.

2008-05-21 19:41:43
69.   Eric Stephen
Lakers are laying a big stink bomb tonight.
2008-05-21 19:41:56
70.   blue22
Is Kemp taking a more inside-out approach this year? Seems like he's going the other way a lot more.
2008-05-21 19:42:21
71.   Bob Timmermann
69
I will stick to the Windy Confines of Dodger Stadium.
2008-05-21 19:43:07
72.   Andrew Shimmin
Did that really not catch DeWitt's toe?
2008-05-21 19:43:21
73.   Gen3Blue
OK-maybe we will get lucky and dink him to death.
2008-05-21 19:43:45
74.   dianagramr
sigh .... I'm stuck with the Cincinnati broadcast on EI tonight ...

(missing Vin)

2008-05-21 19:44:09
75.   Gen3Blue
Don't I get credit for not being my pessimistic self.
2008-05-21 19:46:11
76.   Andrew Shimmin
75- Give the man a Schrute buck!
2008-05-21 19:46:17
77.   Tom Meagher
So, I'm not sure that there is much to accomplish by going line-by-line on what was on the last thread, and I'm pretty sure I don't have the time to but could be wrong. So here's a few numbered statements:

1. I personally don't use anything from the Fielding Bible (Dewan) or Clay Davenport. I do use some BIS data strung third-hand in my projections, but it's to determine regression populations rather than to adjust the hard data.

2. There is a difference between assigning past wins to players and projecting a player's contribution. I've only briefly dabbled in the former; it is the latter I am concerned with. As an aside, I also don't think that the term soul is particularly accurate or helpful in this discussion, and I don't mean that as some sort of atheistic objection to the concept itself but rather in order to be precise about what we are attempting to measure.

3. I don't think you've presented an argument against breaking down the game into components to express future value in terms of runs and wins. That's really been my main objection to NC, and it's been relevant every time I've criticized one or more of his moves.

4. I've written many, many more words on less significant baseball topics than 2773 or whatever Bob said that 228 was. But we all knew that, probably.

5. I agree pretty strongly that GB, FB, LD is not a particularly accurate way to divide our observations up. I still use them in my work because the full hit location data is not available. I see this as a weakness, not a flaw that invalidates the model. That is, putting each batted ball into one of three buckets does a service to analysis, but it does not do so completely. Analysts like Tango, MGL, Studes, etc. that have influenced me all basically agree that we want the data to continue to get more granular.

6. In my own projections, I regress fielding pretty heavily. I do this in part because the data streams have the flaws you are elucidating. Since I'm not a decision-maker in baseball, I've decided not to put a lot of my time into working on fielding metrics with the extant data. When people disagree with my assessments of defense, I'm pretty deferential.

7. Hitting projections are pretty well done in the status quo. Projecting a pitcher's fielding-independent numbers (K, BB, HR) is also pretty accurate. My point about the distinction between projection and prediction is that I think teams need to be able to determine expected contribution in terms of runs. The point is getting the best estimate.

8. Me personally? I don't think that any modeling of human behavior is very accurate. I don't have a high opinion of the human sciences as presently constituted. That's kind of the reason why I like baseball. Baseball is a very controlled environment, and its incredible number of variables pales in comparison to anything else I spend time thinking about. Baseball is a simple game with a rich and deep set of issues that make analyzing it interesting because reasonable best estimates are often easy to develop. I don't think we can model the day-to-day lives of baseball players very well, and I don't think any team can do that. So the human factor that is missing from my models is completely conceded. My model, as is the case with everybody else's model, statistical or otherwise, will do a bad job in terms of the human factor. The non-human elements in the model, though, are very strong, and it's my opinion that they are considerably stronger (though accurate on the same level of magnitude) than the mainstream baseball assessments. That opinion is based on data, and I don't think that it functions beyond a shadow of a doubt but merely beyond doubt. And in part, the model succeeds because it systematically uses empirical data to figure out how much weight the human factor gets, and then basically regresses the human factor completely to the mean. I think that teams and media types and many fans generally give the human factor too much weight. Even when they weight it properly, they are often using such a small sample that they should be regressing it quite a bit but do not.

9. While I'm frankly not a fan of any Baseball Prospectus stat, I don't know what you mean by arguing that BA/OBP/SLG tell us all. If we know how to read them, then sure, they tell us basically all we need to know about how well somebody hit over the sample. Converting it to runs (or wins) is to make it coherent. Some of the newfangled metrics don't accomplish that, and perhaps I should even say many of them. BP especially I think is guilty of sometimes looking to get a better RMSE and in so doing neglecting the theoretical building blocks of the model. Tangotiger, who personally has been a much bigger influence for me, has really worked hard against such sloppiness, and Brandon (Patriot) has repeatedly done the dirty work to show the egregious instances. However, I think you're using someone else's bath water to justify tossing my baby. I pretty strongly believe in using theoretical models instead of simple regression coefficients. Regression is a tool that can be useful in looking for things, but when you find what you are looking for you need to deploy a theoretical attitude and use rigor. If that rigor leads you to use regression within a model, that is fine. Linear weights are verified by regression analysis, but it is the underlying theoretical work that convinced me to use them.

10. Baseball is a team game, and I don't analyze teams without looking at the interrelation of the team's elements. But the batter-pitcher matchup is between two individuals. The teams impact every PA, so there is no illusion that it is just the two individuals: there is fielding, defensive positioning, game state/score/etc., the catcher, runners on base, etc. The point of breaking down a team into its individuals isn't to argue that it is not a team game or that analyzing individuals alone will suffice. It's just a question of whether or not we want to try to analyze the individuals, and I don't see how anybody could argue that we shouldn't try to if we're analyzing baseball. Very much of the batter-pitcher matchup can be understood by understanding the skills of the individual batter and pitcher in the context of the spread of skills in baseball as a whole. It is folly to argue that the .333 OBP means that the pitcher is dominating. This is only the case if the game was created with the theoretical goal of a .500 OBP. I could easily counter by arguing that with about 4.5 runs per game, there is a perfect balance: on average, the offense scores a run every other inning. Who dominates who in absolute terms is something that may be useful for historical comparison, but in projecting player contributions we are really looking to evaluate players relative to the population of available players. Perhaps you can use physics to show that the pitcher 'dominates' the batter-pitcher interaction, but this is not the sense of domination that I mean. By domination, I mean how well they do relative to the population. Excellent starting pitchers are not so dominant that they turn all hitters into bad hitters: they are so dominant that they turn good hitters into average hitters, average hitters into bad hitters, and bad hitters into terrible hitters. The intricacies of modeling one PA are such that I will never be confident in the ability to predict an at bat, and I will never have a projection for a PA that is beyond doubt. But in the aggregate, the model is well-constructed. So for a usage like giving a flexible estimate of a player's talent level in wins above replacement, I think what I've got is just fine.

2008-05-21 19:46:20
78.   Gen3Blue
74 I know--they raked Kemp over the coals with a back-handed compliment on how he's better in the clubhouse this year. A veiled garbage can comment.
2008-05-21 19:46:40
79.   sporky
SQUEEZE!
2008-05-21 19:46:49
80.   KG16
SQUEEZE!
2008-05-21 19:47:06
81.   Eric Stephen
74
Me too, although the Dodger game has no sound while in picture-in-picture as I listed to Marv and Doug Collins describe the drubbing.
2008-05-21 19:47:14
82.   kguy
Now THAT was cool
2008-05-21 19:47:14
83.   Andrew Shimmin
Bako's lucky the Bison slid.
2008-05-21 19:48:03
84.   Jiminy Cricket
I love the suicide squeeze
2008-05-21 19:48:03
85.   sporky
80 lol, I thought I double posted.
2008-05-21 19:48:05
86.   Gen3Blue
Oh man--how could you flip it high to poor Bako with the Bison coming in low?
2008-05-21 19:48:09
87.   KG16
83 - PACKRAT!
2008-05-21 19:48:25
88.   blue22
74 - I'm stuck in a hotel room watching the Gameday rendering of the action. I'd kill for visuals.
2008-05-21 19:48:43
89.   LoneStar7
haha yea 83 at least were making something happen over here, the lakers look off right now
2008-05-21 19:48:45
90.   scareduck
Seems unfair that Hu got a hit taken away from him by calling that a fielder's choice.
2008-05-21 19:48:57
91.   KG16
85 - nope just 9 seconds faster, had to log in
2008-05-21 19:48:59
92.   kguy
The squeeze was cool, but did it make sense? With two gone, Kuroda would have been leading it off in the next inning.
2008-05-21 19:49:09
93.   Bob Timmermann
Out of towners are stuck with the dulcet tones of George Grande and Thom Brennaman and Chris Welsh because the game in L.A. is being shown on KCAL.

I imagine this game is going to get killed in the ratings tonight by the Lakers game and AI.

2008-05-21 19:49:59
94.   KG16
92 - there was only one out, Kudora just sacrificed Hu to second for the second out
2008-05-21 19:51:11
95.   Icaros
93

Maybe not, this Lakers game sucks so far.

2008-05-21 19:51:35
96.   KG16
what is wrong with the Lakers? This series was not suppose to start until Game 3
2008-05-21 19:51:57
97.   kguy
94 Aha- then it really was cool!
2008-05-21 19:52:24
98.   Gen3Blue
LA sports scene really hopping tonight. How are the Lakers doing?
2008-05-21 19:53:12
99.   Icaros
98

Getting killed.

2008-05-21 19:54:11
100.   LoneStar7
93 not if the lakers dont really get it going, we just turned a 20 point deficit into a 16 point deficit
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-05-21 19:55:13
101.   blue22
98 - Down by 16 with 17 minutes to go. Right where they want 'em.
2008-05-21 19:56:08
102.   Bluebleeder87
Nice play by both DeWitt & Loney.
2008-05-21 19:56:30
103.   Andrew Shimmin
Is Patterson still fast?
2008-05-21 19:57:15
104.   Gen3Blue
Yeah--but Loney ought to get some credit too. Directed at Cincy announcer.
2008-05-21 19:58:00
105.   blue22
103 - Is "speedy" the same as "fast"?
2008-05-21 19:58:27
106.   Eric Stephen
93
No Thom™ tonight, thank goodness.
2008-05-21 19:58:56
107.   blue22
Wow, Kobe's first free throws of the game? Where's he been?
2008-05-21 19:59:02
108.   Bluebleeder87
DeWitt is winning over a lot of people here in L.A.
2008-05-21 20:00:24
109.   scareduck
77 - You will find the flaws in his argument right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

In particular --

* Fallacy of Nirvana (Kurt Cobain would approve?), i.e. because VORP, etc. are not perfect they are therefore useless.
* Argument from ignorance (because he can't conceive of a means to assign win shares in a team sport that therefore such a means does not exist).
* Appeal to authority

And long-winded, too!

2008-05-21 20:00:57
110.   Bob Timmermann
Tall Chris Young had to leave in San Diego after taking an Albert Pujols line drive in the head.
2008-05-21 20:03:09
111.   Eric Stephen
110
My God that sounds painful.

Lakers were down 20.

I called my friend to whine.

14-0 run since. You're welcome

2008-05-21 20:03:20
112.   MollyKnight
The wind is really whipping.
2008-05-21 20:03:40
113.   Sam DC
Lakers!
2008-05-21 20:03:53
114.   kguy
110 Geez- did he leave on his feet, or in an ambulance? Hearing the words Pujols + Line Drive + Head = big time scary
2008-05-21 20:03:58
115.   Gen3Blue
Wow with this wind, it's good Kuroda throws some groung balls.
2008-05-21 20:05:31
116.   skybluestoday
22

Weed, whites, and wine.

I spent an evening photographing Bonnie Raitt in 2000-2001. Her father, the late John Raitt, was being honoured that evening. I had a couple of moments alone with her, and all I was able to do was talk about Lowell George, and the fact that I had admired his work for so long and knew that she appreciated it, too.

She immediately turned into a blushing schoolgirl, and said that he was her "best friend." I confessed how much I loved his vocals ("honey-in-the-sludge"), his songwriting, and his slide playing -- she told me that I'd never even heard the half of it.

One cool lady.

2008-05-21 20:06:24
117.   Andrew Shimmin
I've decided I'm not going to read any more comments that rag on social sciences unless they're under six paragraphs in length.
2008-05-21 20:06:37
118.   dianagramr
110

oh no ..... is he OK?

2008-05-21 20:07:27
119.   Andrew Shimmin
117- And at least one of those paragraphs better be a dirty joke.
2008-05-21 20:09:48