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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

June 2 Open Chat
2008-06-02 04:00
by Jon Weisman

Good morning ...

Comments (361)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-02 04:23:04
1.   xaphor
2008-06-02 04:41:29
2.   Marty
How about that Tatum O'Neal?
2008-06-02 05:06:16
3.   xaphor
Time for another book deal.
2008-06-02 05:55:22
4.   D4P
And interviews with Larry King, Oprah, etc.
2008-06-02 06:33:22
5.   Sam DC
That Tatum O'Neal news makes me sad.

On the other hand, comments 300-250 last night which I largely missed due to the exigencies of sleep made me laugh.

Daniel saw a marmot!

2008-06-02 06:43:52
6.   Jacob Burch
A comment from the haven't-slept: When the most exciting bit of your week is discovering a reference to Luke 5 in Paradise Lost that you haven't seen before, it's probably time to graduate with your ever-useful BA in English already.
2008-06-02 06:55:40
7.   Sushirabbit
Or you could double major in Philosophy!
2008-06-02 06:58:41
8.   D4P
Or you could double major in Economics!
2008-06-02 07:02:27
9.   Jacob Burch
Technically, my degree is in American Literature and Culture. With a specialization/thesis in electronic literature meta-standards. Hurray!
2008-06-02 07:05:58
10.   Penarol1916
8. What's the matter with Economics?
2008-06-02 07:07:58
11.   D4P
Nothing. I'm saying I double majored in English and Economics, a combo I highly recommend.
2008-06-02 07:16:38
12.   Sam DC
9 Paradise Lost now heading up the American Literature and Culture canon?
2008-06-02 07:19:17
13.   Jacob Burch
12 UCLA's English department is notoriously traditional for a western school, and requires the American Lit. majors to take two of Two Shakespeare classes and the Milton course.

The intent to ensure all literature majors know what came before is a sound one, I just don't know if its the best execution of it.

It's my (second-to) last English class for a reason, however.

2008-06-02 07:22:12
14.   JoeyP
Any know Nomar's actual injury?

He's been out a long time and you really dont hear much about him these days.

2008-06-02 07:26:16
15.   Jacob Burch
Last we heard was him being moved to the 60 Day DL. Not sure if much else has been released.

My PVL question: Do we have any idea what Free Agent rank Derek Lowe will receive?

2008-06-02 07:34:11
16.   natepurcell

Most likely an A.

Furcal is in jeopardy of not becoming a type A free agent if he does not play in games...which would suck for us.

2008-06-02 07:41:54
17.   D4P
What is our pitching rotation right now? I see that the order appears to be Lowe, Penny, Kershaw, Billingsley, Kuroda.

But who's #1? It used to be Penny, but is it now Lowe? Not that it really matters, but I'm just curious.

2008-06-02 07:42:09
18.   natepurcell

new car search...really close to deciding to get a 08 Mazda 3. Still can't decide on whether sedan or hatchback, color or trim.

I am not very good at making these type of decisions.

2008-06-02 07:42:55
19.   natepurcell

For me, Billingsley is our best pitcher so therefore he is my #1.

2008-06-02 07:43:55
20.   RELX
In a weird way, the Furcal injury may help us to resign him to a shorter contract. Missing a month or two with a back injury may prevent him from getting long-term contract offers, and thus make it more likely that we can sign him to a one or two-year contract, which is the most I would give him at this point. Of course, if he comes back healthy for the rest of the season he will get his long-term deal, but, even if he comes back and continues where he left off, I would not sign him long-term. A shortstop in his early thirties who has had back problems for two straight seasons is not something you want a part of.
2008-06-02 07:43:58
21.   adrian beltre
has anyone given any thought to trading d. lowe during the season? Kuo keeps showing he can pitch multiple innings well, and with clay and maybe schmidt coming back, i'm sure the dodgers would be able to fetch a lot in return.
2008-06-02 07:45:43
22.   D4P
But is Management now treating Lowe as #1?
2008-06-02 07:47:48
23.   natepurcell

Our first round picks after pick 15

2002- James Loney
2003- Chad Billingsley
2004- Scott Elbert and Blake Dewitt
2006- Bryan Morris

I realize this isn't very scientific but looking at that list, could we get a better package of prospects better than those caliber of players?

2008-06-02 07:48:51
24.   Jacob Burch
21 This is the motivation behind my question--if he is an A type free agent, I don't think the return we'd get for a few months of low would be worth the loss of the draft pick. If someone wants to Gasol-trade for it, then by all means.
2008-06-02 07:49:08
25.   D4P

Park and Kuo are the only Dodger pitchers to have started at least 1 game and to have a winning record.

2008-06-02 07:51:47
26.   natepurcell
Also, with Lowe being 36 and having Boras as his agent as well as being in the last year of his contract, I just don't see teams lining up and giving away premium talent for him.
2008-06-02 07:52:27
27.   D4P
It's pretty stupid that a starter's record depends in large part upon when his team scores runs. It's bad enough that it depends upon how many runs they score, but that it depends upon the timing is even more ridiculous.
2008-06-02 07:56:32
28.   Penarol1916
23. Did you ever find out where Morris has disappeared to? For someone coming off of Tommy John surgery, his control looked decent, but he seemed to be giving up a lot of hits.
2008-06-02 07:59:26
29.   Ken Noe
Remember, Ned "hasn't closed the door" on resigning Lowe, assuming he survives the coming winter.
2008-06-02 08:00:20
30.   D4P
Dodger win-loss records:

13-24, 3rd worst in MLB

14-5, best in MLB

Not sure what that means, other than that our starters haven't been so good and our bullpen has been really good. It also would appear to mean that our offense is scoring late in the games for our relievers, but less so early in the games for our starters.

2008-06-02 08:06:22
31.   Ken Noe
Starters' ERA: 4.56 (10th in NL), Relievers ERA 2.99 (2nd in NL).
2008-06-02 08:10:04
32.   JoeyP
If the Dodgers dont plan on offering Lowe arbitration, then they should certainly look into dealing him.

Also, Dodgers probably have a list of prospects that are out of options for next year, that might be trade bait for some PVL.

Greg Miller for Christian Guzman?

BHSportsguy brought up Guzman last night, and he definitely fits the mold of a Ned trade. Trading for a guy having a career year (.324 OBP not withstanding...says how bad Guzman has been all his career). Plus, Miller may not have a Dodger future, so I could see him being dealt in a deal similar.

If the Reds are out of it by July, a Dunn deal makes too much sense for the Dodgers but I'd be shocked if Ned went and got him.
Miller, Hu, Meloan for Dunn?

2008-06-02 08:11:14
33.   D4P
I guess the deal is that when we fall behind to stay, it's usually with our starters pitching. When we take the lead to stay, it's split between starters and relievers.
2008-06-02 08:13:03
34.   Jacob Burch
I imagine Ethier,Kemp or Loney would have to be included in a deal for Dunn for positional value. Crazier trades have happened with the Reds (and Dodgers, for that matter), however.
2008-06-02 08:14:14
35.   D4P
Miller for Guzman would appear to be a good prediction. Ned can't really be any higher on Miller than he was on Edwin, and Guzman is quintessential Ned.

The primary glitch is that Guzman is a SS, not an Utility Infielder™.

2008-06-02 08:15:00
36.   FirstMohican
18 - I had a 04 Mazda 3 hatchback. I would [b]highly[/b] recommend it. I had it for about two years and aside from one recall (which was fixed in an hour), there were absolutely no issues with the quality of the car. For the cost, you really can't get another car as nice looking or driving.

The gas mileage was supposed to be high 20's, but even with my most pained efforts to drive conservatively, the best I got was 24 even. I typically got about 22. I also didn't like the 4-speed automatic (which has since been changed to 5-speed). With the 4-speed, 2nd was a little slow, but passing on the freeway was where you really benefited from the 160hp.

FWIW, a friend of mine has a 07 Mazda Speed 3, and the 270 or so HP are waaaaaay too much for the car. It's definitely fun, but the cars suspension just cannot handle it. It's really tough to stay in your own lane.

Good luck!

2008-06-02 08:15:53
37.   adrian beltre
sorry guys, but what does pvl stand for?
2008-06-02 08:16:24
38.   natepurcell
Did you ever find out where Morris has disappeared to? For someone coming off of Tommy John surgery, his control looked decent, but he seemed to be giving up a lot of hits.

Shut down with shoulder tenderness although the guy who told me said it wasn't suppose to be serious, but just precautionary.

My Reaction?....Whatever, see: Scott Elbert.

2008-06-02 08:18:02
39.   natepurcell

Thanks for the insight! Through reading reviews and other people's insights, that seems to be right in line; good bang for my buck.

2008-06-02 08:18:04
40.   Jacob Burch
37 Proven Veteran Leadership
2008-06-02 08:30:25
41.   adrian beltre
of course. does a d. lowe for dunn swap make any sense?
2008-06-02 08:33:28
42.   Ken Noe
35 A Guzman deal would scream really bad things about Furcal's back. We'll soon have utility guy Andy LaRoche to play the other positions.

34 The Reds have Votto and don't need Loney. I can imagine Ned moving Ethier + someone else for Dunn. Of the two starters Ned criticized in the press, Lowe is the one now pitching better. At the risk of giving Rosenthal an iota of credibility, I can see him moving Penny.

2008-06-02 08:34:52
43.   JoeyP
If Ned doesnt get a Christian Guzman, is anyone opposed to starting the clock on DeJesus and optioning Hu?

DeJesus does have very good OBP skills and is said to be a good fielder. I think he might be able to hit better long-term than Hu/Maza.

2008-06-02 08:36:24
44.   Jacob Burch
41 In MLB 2008 it did on my last franchise (I also got the feel-in for Jay Bruce!), but the Reds are aware that Dunn is their biggest chip and would hold out for the best prospect/MLB-ready package they could get. Three months of D-Lowe wouldn't likely make the cut.

I also think the Dodgers would have to offer Lowe arbitration. The worst-case scenario isn't awful, and a Boras client at his age at a SP-premium era is almost guaranteed to opt out.

2008-06-02 08:40:53
45.   Sam DC
I'd just like to stand up for two important points:

1. It's "Cristian".
2. It's "Guzmán".

2008-06-02 08:43:43
46.   sweepstakes
With the Dodgers I think PVL should stand for proven veteran liability.
2008-06-02 08:45:51
47.   D4P
But then the acronym would lose its irony, which would be like sun on your wedding day.
2008-06-02 08:52:43
48.   sweepstakes
47-- Right, but proven veteran liabiltiy is sort of funny and honest at the same time
2008-06-02 08:53:41
49.   Neal Pollack
I think we need to give Furcal another week to heal before we start dealing for lesser shortstops. Regardless, the coming homestand will tell a lot about where this team is headed. At what point do we give up on 2008 and start dreaming about maturing youngsters in 2009? Obviously, we haven't reached that point yet.
2008-06-02 08:56:35
50.   sweepstakes
14-- Nomar is hanging out Gary Coleman and Dustin Diamond
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-02 09:01:31
51.   fordprefect
Mornin' all.
Technical question: does everyone have the ability to type the accent over the a in Guzman though? Without having to remap the keyboard constantly? Spelling Cristian correctly = easy, but the other....?
2008-06-02 09:07:07
52.   fanerman
35 Does that mean you pronounce "utility" as "oo-tility" and not "you-tility"?
2008-06-02 09:08:26
53.   Sam DC
51 I don't, but cut and paste works. And I was kidding on the "Guzmán" -- no one's gonna go all Xeifrank if you spell it Guzman.

In other news, Rest in Peace The Originator.

2008-06-02 09:09:14
54.   Bob Timmermann
á = ALT+0225
é = ALT+0233
í = ALT+0237
ó = ALT+0243
ú = ALT+0250

Also ñ=ALT+0241

2008-06-02 09:12:30
55.   Daniel Zappala
Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson went on a barnstorming tour in 1924 and played in my home town of Brea. Very cool story and pictures at the times:

I can't believe I missed it!

2008-06-02 09:12:32
56.   fanerman
Thánks Bób Tímmérmáññ.
2008-06-02 09:12:40
57.   Jacob Burch
And for our Apple Friends, á = Opt+e followed by an a.
2008-06-02 09:12:57
58.   Daniel Zappala
(Bob, if you have a way of getting me the original game-day article, I'd appreciate it.)
2008-06-02 09:15:14
59.   fordprefect
WOW! Thanks!. for all keyboards & OSs?
2008-06-02 09:15:57
60.   Bob Timmermann
Check your private e-mail account.
2008-06-02 09:16:50
61.   Bob Timmermann
Those are for PCs.

It's a lot easier for Macs.

2008-06-02 09:17:07
62.   Humma Kavula
36 I need a small family car. I looked briefly at the Mazda 3, but I ruled it out. I think it might be OK for now, so long as we just have one kid, but if Bride and I have a second kid in a couple of years, I wonder if the Mazda 3 will be big enough for our family to go on vacation. Do you have kids, and if so, does that car work for you?

No, I'm thinking about the Nissan Rogue, strangely enough. What I really want is a station wagon, but nobody makes a good one for the price I want to pay (Audi and Volvo too expensive; Suburu Outback very disappointing). So that leaves small SUVs, and I really liked the way the Rogue drove.

Only problems are:

(1) Rogue has no luxury items (no leather, no nav system, etc). I'm of an age where I want a few of these things.
(2) It's called the Rogue. I mean, can I really drive a car named after the most boring X-Man?

What I really want is a car that looks like the Honda CRV on the inside but drives like the Rogue. I talked to the dealers to see if they'd put the CRV innards into a Rogue, but no dice.

2008-06-02 09:18:54
63.   Jacob Burch
54 That will work for all Windows operating systems that I can think of. I suppose I haven't tried on 3.1.

Apple users can use my above note or play around with Option+many things. It's a fairly straight-forward system. (option+n sets up a tilde, option+o the umlaut, etc)

2008-06-02 09:21:30
64.   Daniel Zappala
If you use the Gnome desktop in Linux, you can go to Applications->Acessories->Character Map, where you can play with all kinds of characters. You can then spell my name correctly, Zappalà, which uses the grave accent to indicate the stress is on the last syllable, instead of the customary second-to-last.
2008-06-02 09:24:01
65.   underdog
18 Nate, as for color, Dodger blue with white trim. There, done.

As for Lowe, I would be stunned if the Dodgers didn't keep him the rest of the season, especially if they're still in the playoff hunt and nab the draft pick(s) for him. Better than anything they'd get in return, imho. And btw, he's pitching better these days, it's Penny I'm more worried about.

What an icky road trip. I knew it'd be tough, and even more so without Furcal. Thought maybe they'd get a 3-4 out of it, but, ah well. Time to make up some ground at home.

2008-06-02 09:25:40
66.   Daniel Zappala
60 Thank you Bob!
2008-06-02 09:30:07
67.   fordprefect
Which is what I have at the moment, Dapper in fact. But you still have to remap every time to revert to regular a, no?
2008-06-02 09:33:07
68.   Bob Timmermann
Glad to be of service!
2008-06-02 09:34:30
69.   JoeyP
Are the D-Rays for real?

35-22--best record in the AL.
The most amazing thing is:

Carlos Pena--.733 OPS
Evan Longoria--.745 OPS
Carl Crawford--.707 OPS

Its likely that those players should improve. Navarro will almost certainly get worse (.831 OPS)..

But is their really any reason why this team cant stay in it all season?

Shields/Kazmir/Jackson/Garza---> Young & improving starting pitching.

Friedman's really done a great job for a stat geek....

2008-06-02 09:34:43
70.   Bumsrap
While I have never wanted Dunn on the Dodgers I will admit that his 15 home runs this year do look enticing. But the Dodgers have 5 outfielders now so I can't see trading a pitcher to get Dunn. Since Bruce is a corner outfielder and Dusty likes Pierre, a Pierre for Dunn type trade may look better but it still results in 5 outfielders.

The Dodgers need to take advantage of Jones being out of the lineup and see what Young can do by playing an outfield of Young, Kemp, and Ethier on a more regular basis.

2008-06-02 09:35:36
71.   Xeifrank
53. aren't you about due for an obscure Washington Nationals story. :)
vr, Xei
2008-06-02 09:36:43
72.   Daniel Zappala
62 It doesn't have NAV, but it does have leather seats available. And an auxiliary input jack on the radio, which I consider an absolute necessity.
2008-06-02 09:37:34
73.   twerp
18 You may have seen this Motortrend comparison, but if not hope it's helpful. They like the car a lot--

Not sure if Car&Driver and Road&Track have reviewed it.

2008-06-02 09:37:54
74.   Daniel Zappala
67 No, you don't remap the keyboard, you just copy and paste letters from the character map application.
2008-06-02 09:39:07
75.   cargill06
in chicago we're a couple foul balls just missing grand slams and a blown save away from a sweep. and i blown save in NY from going 5-2 against two of the NL's best on the road while facing johan santana and carlos zambrano.

i still believe that the team constructed as is can still win the division, but as i said a few days ago a pierre and penny for dunn deal would be ok with me.

2008-06-02 09:40:46
76.   underdog
It's interesting to see that Thursday's amateur baseball draft is on ESPN, as I was just reading Moneyball, re-reading the chapter "inside the war room" as it were, with Beane and co. prepping for the draft and making picks. Michael Lewis makes a point about how closed-off baseball is compared to the NFL and NBA when it comes to both statistics and the draft. And now even in the short time since that book was published those things have changed. Anyway, I'm glad they are giving more coverage of the baseball draft, after realizing a lot of fans are interested, more so than they thought, and that it's good for MLB, too.

I highly recommend reading that chapter of Moneyball this week, if you haven't already. Quite interesting, also to hear some of the names of players being considered for that draft, and players Beane loved (Nick Swisher and others) vs. ones he hated that other teams loved (like Prince Fielder).

2008-06-02 09:48:50
77.   sweepstakes
75-- Throwing Penny in for a dunn rental doesn't seem like a good idea.
2008-06-02 09:52:49
78.   cargill06
77 i agree, i'd make that deal only on the assumption you can lock dunn up to a long term deal, you deal with the andruw jones mistake for one more year than you have a kemp ethier dunn OF for a long time.
2008-06-02 09:56:16
79.   old dodger fan

1st 6 starts
37.1 IP; 2.89 ERA; 1.31 WHIP; 1HR; 10 BB

Next 6 starts
32.2 IP; 8.81 ERA; 1.84 WHIP 5 HR; 17 BB

Has anybody seen him pitch? Is the difference obvious, other than the results? Is it pitch location?

2008-06-02 09:56:57
80.   Penarol1916
62. Do they no longer make a Protoge Station Wagon? My wife drove that until we had kid #3 and went up to a Mazda Minivan.
2008-06-02 10:07:18
81.   regfairfield
77 Penny and Pierre at best cancels each other out. You need a lot of incentive to take Pierre's contract.

79 Penny got away with a ton last year, and his downfall has been fairly expected. Every year since we got him his walk rate has gone up and his strikeout rate has declined.

2008-06-02 10:08:45
82.   MC Safety
From last thread:

In the last 5-6 years, I've come to the realization that I'm a pretty big A's fan.

When I was in the Santa Cruz mountains last weekend, I was picking up an FM station (106 something, I believe?) that was talking A's baseball. Maybe it was just a pre game show or something, but they were talking about Rich Harden's performance against Boston. I believe it was some kind of Rock station, too. It was one of the only stations that came in. Thought that was pretty cool. Maybe underdog or Trainwreck can fill me in.

2008-06-02 10:09:41
83.   Humma Kavula
80 Didn't look for the Protege. Went to Mazda and saw the 3 and the 5. The 3 seemed too small. The 5 seemed too large. The dealers were extremely pushy ("Are you making a decision today? No? Well, what do I have to do to get you to make a decision today? You say you need to look at more cars? What if I told you that the price I can give you today will never be this low again?") and we skedaddled and haven't looked at 'em again since.

But I'll take another look.

2008-06-02 10:13:32
84.   JoeyP
Penny's best attribute had been magically not giving up homers.

This year: 6 in 70 innings. Not bad, but not at his best either.

And 37Ks in 70 innings is awful.

If Penny didnt already have a very nicely priced option for 2009, he could be be a trade candidate. But given his contract, I dont think he should be dealt.

2008-06-02 10:13:58
85.   Humma Kavula
Looking on the Mazda site, it appears that they no longer make the Protege or anything wagonish. They do make a small SUV that I didn't look at.
2008-06-02 10:14:02
86.   fordprefect
Right! Thanks.
2008-06-02 10:14:39
87.   GMac In The 909
69 He has done a great job from the basement of Tropicana Field. =)
2008-06-02 10:15:33
88.   old dodger fan
83 But thanks to him you did make a decision that day. I hate it when they do that.
2008-06-02 10:18:57
89.   cargill06
84 that's why i think he has a lot of value as a trading chip.
2008-06-02 10:27:19
90.   FirstMohican
83 - No, they don't. It was discontinued when the Mazda 3 was released in '04.
2008-06-02 10:27:50
91.   FirstMohican
Err.. 80.
2008-06-02 10:29:15
92.   Sushirabbit
Mr. Kavula, :-) if you really want a wagon, and one that's less than the Volvo's and Saabs, I can recommend a Ford Taurus. When we bought ours, the wife expressely didn't want a mini-van. We looked at VW Passats, Volvos, and Saabs, but elected to get a 2000 in 2001 for roughly $16k, I think the Passat we liked was $23k. The ford's not in the same league but was solidly dependable and the wife loved it. We did have some issues with the flex fuel setup but they were minimal. I hate driving the thing, but it overall it works. Or buy a used Honda Pilot. They're so great, but especially with kids.
2008-06-02 10:32:05
93.   Penarol1916
85. They must have gotten rid of the Protege when they got rid of the MPV, which I loved. That Protege was a great station wagon though. If only they had made them with the wood paneling.
2008-06-02 10:35:37
94.   FirstMohican
Oh, Nate, by the way... do NOT go to Mazda of Orange. Or, if you do, triple check your contract. We had agreed on a 5% interest in writing, the contract had 7.9%. I almost didn't catch it, and they refused to reduce it to 5% until I literally walked out after telling off the finance manager and salesman. (I wasn't getting financed by them, but I needed to contract to read 5%, so my credit union could beat their rate.)
2008-06-02 10:35:54
95.   fanerman
Oy vey. It looks like I'm spending the next 2 nights watching the Giants and Mets in San Francisco. I originally wanted to just go to one of the games (a Mets fan friend in the bay area organized it), but due to ticket confusion, I may be forced to go to both. The horror.
2008-06-02 10:36:57
96.   Humma Kavula
92 Do they still make the Taurus? I thought that car had gone the way of the Protege.

Also, my first car was a 1987 Mercury Sable -- basically the same car as the Taurus. It had been my mom's until she got a new one. I hated that car. I realize that 20 years on, the car is probably very different... but I have a chip on my shoulder about it. Still, I appreciate the rec.

I would prefer a new car to a used car. I like to drive my cars into the ground, and I think -- though I could be wrong -- that if that's the goal, I would get more value out of a new car. But I haven't given it that much thought.

2008-06-02 10:40:11
97.   Humma Kavula
94 Nate, I will add that it was the Mazda dealership in Long Beach that gave the Bride and I the unpleasant experience I described in 83 .
2008-06-02 10:45:12
98.   Disabled List
If anyone wants to get into the spirit of the NBA Finals and read some good ol' fashioned LA-bashing from some bitter Bostonians, check out the current Bill Simmons chat on Truly unbelievable.
2008-06-02 10:45:45
99.   Daniel Zappala
92 I can second the motion for a Honda Pilot, if you need two rear seats. Fantastic SUV (though tough on the gas bill these days), and great for family vacations. We can fit enough stuff for a week of camping, plus three kids, in the car. If you need something a little smaller, the CRV is a great smaller SUV. Both have a car-based engine, so they are better on fuel than most other SUVs.

If you don't plan on having more than 3 kids, a smaller SUV with a roof rack and luggage carrier is a good option for when you need to go on vacation.

On the other hand, for my own car, I will likely want to buy some kind of hybrid, because I only use it only for commuting.

2008-06-02 10:52:33
100.   MC Safety
I recently rented the Ford Edge for the drive up to Santa Cruz. I loved how it drove, and the inside seemed really spacious.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-06-02 10:53:02
101.   Humma Kavula
We are almost certainly going to stop at 2 kids. We are certainly not going to approach the 17 that Daniel has. :-)

I really don't want anything as big as the Pilot -- I don't think we'll need that many seats and I don't like big SUVs. And I would prefer to have a car that got over 20 MPG.

My wife gets the small, commute-only car. She wants a Civic. She'll get it.

2008-06-02 10:53:31
102.   underdog
Minivans? Boo! Boooooo! ;-)

Do they have a hybrid minivan yet?

98 I'm afraid to look at it. Was it all one-sided or did anyone stick up for the Lakers or Angelenos?

82 I think that's KFRC, though it's changed call letters and formats so many times I've lost track. But I think they still broadcast A's content there at 106.9. I don't follow the A's that much so I could be wrong, but have stumbled on it a few times myself.

2008-06-02 10:54:14
103.   underdog
What's a good car if you and your partner have 4 cats?
2008-06-02 10:58:24
104.   Humma Kavula
Also, as long as I'm on the subject, can I just say that I've read reviews about small SUVs that say:

1. Nobody should buy small SUVs, because they're inferior to station wagons;
2. But because Americans don't buy station wagons, there aren't are too few on the market;
3. Therefore, Americans are stupid.
4. End of review.

Well, thanks so much for helping me make my decision.

2008-06-02 10:58:33
105.   MC Safety
100 I should add that it handled a fairly luxurious three person camping trip no sweat, too.
2008-06-02 10:59:52
106.   Humma Kavula
104 part two should read in part "there are too few on the market."
2008-06-02 11:00:00
107.   regfairfield
I do like the idea of using the Reds as a trading partner. Walt Jocketty has a history of being willing to give up anything for great talent and the Reds have an amazing farm system.

The only problem is actually getting the type of talent he wants. If he was in charge this offseason, sending them Penny might not have been a bad idea.

2008-06-02 11:05:57
108.   bigcpa
Kershaw scouting opportunity

I have an extra pair of seats for the Weds matinee- 12:10pm vs. Rockies. I handpicked them off stubhub. Field aisle 12, row D. Will take face obo.

(Sorry for the cross-post with the ticket thread but it's a bit of a ghost town over there.)

2008-06-02 11:08:41
109.   Ken Noe
All of this may be moot. Says here that after Junior hits #600, they most likely will trade one of Junior and Dunn, but not both. Might all be up to Bavasi.

2008-06-02 11:11:18
110.   cargill06
109 i think griff is a 10-5 guy and he dosn't want to go back to seattle.
2008-06-02 11:11:24
111.   D4P
Not sure why anyone would want Junior these days, especially after all the #600 hype is gone.
2008-06-02 11:12:15
112.   SG6
99 - I believe you mean "car-based frame" not engine.

Car: Uni-body
Truck: Old Ladder type frame (very heavy)

Car-framed based SUVs (like the Toyota Highlander) are similar to station wagons with a bit of height.

Most critical functions for gas mileage: Weight and wind resistance (moreso than engine size and HP).

2008-06-02 11:15:18
113.   underdog
Jenna Fischer alert!

Jenna Fischer will be on NPR's Fresh Air tomorrow morning (or whenever it airs for you locally). And available as a podcast after that. Jenna Fischer.

Stand down.

2008-06-02 11:15:41
114.   regfairfield
109 I'd be really sad if the worst defensive outfield ever couldn't stick together for more than a few games.
2008-06-02 11:17:37
115.   cargill06
114 worse than bonds alou roberts?
2008-06-02 11:20:01
116.   regfairfield
115 Yep. Only Alou was probably the worst in baseball at his position. There's a good chance that the Reds have the worst left fielder, center fielder, and right fielder right now.

Unless the Reds have a decent center field prospect I don't know about, Pierre to the Reds could make a lot of sense this offseason.

2008-06-02 11:22:40
117.   cargill06
who was worse than bonds last year?

and if pierre makes sense for the reds why do you think they would not do a pierre penny for dunn deal? penny is very cheap for 1.5 years, and if they don't get any better offers you'd think they'd have to seriously consider it.

2008-06-02 11:23:01
118.   LogikReader

That'd be a relatively easy trade to start off Cashman's Dodger career :-)

2008-06-02 11:24:27
119.   underdog
118 What's with the desire for Brian Cashman? Or just a hunch that he'll follow Torre out to LA? Seems highly unlikely to me...
2008-06-02 11:25:00
120.   arbfuldodger
110 I live in the Puget Sound area and when Junior came back to play here last season he was thrilled w/ the reception he got and told the local media that he wants to retire w/ the M's, If the M's were closer to being in contention this season I would think that a trade between M's & the Reds would just be working out the players exchanged.
2008-06-02 11:25:29
121.   cargill06
my mistake bonds alou roberts were never in the OF together
2008-06-02 11:25:55
122.   regfairfield
117 Because the trade would likely be Pierre and a ton of cash for nothing. Penny could replace the ton of cash. Dunn is productive and gives draft picks, so it should take a lot to get him.

Barry is actually underrated defensively, he has no mobility, but he takes great routes so he still has decent range. He wasn't even one of the five worst left fielders in baseball the last few years and might not even be in the bottom 10.

2008-06-02 11:26:05
123.   tjdub
We too love our Honda Pilot. Fits the 3 kids and all their stuff.
2008-06-02 11:28:52
124.   arbfuldodger
116 That Bruce guy in CF looks like he has a chance to be OK
2008-06-02 11:28:55
125.   LogikReader

Hunch. Still, if McCourt has to play to the media, might as well get a competent GM like Cashman.

I haven't considered NedCo staying another year.

2008-06-02 11:30:30
126.   underdog
125 - Or steal Theo Epstein from his beloved Sox. ;-)


Say, anyone know when the blernsball draft is?

2008-06-02 11:32:36
127.   regfairfield
124 Offensively.
2008-06-02 11:39:58
128.   bhsportsguy
Adam Dunn has a limited no-trade clause after June 15th. He can name 10 teams that he will accept a trade. A guess would be that he would eliminate all East and West coast teams since they would cause the greatest amount of change. If I had to guess, he would pick the other NL Central teams, the AL Central teams and Texas.
2008-06-02 11:41:19
129.   blue22
110 - He'll go if they pick up his option year, which would cost $12.5M. Sexson and Vidro both come off the books next year, so it could happen. It would be a total PR move though, since the M's aren't winning jack this year.
2008-06-02 11:41:46
130.   rockmrete

What do you mean by Penny could replace the ton of cash?

2008-06-02 11:43:49
131.   Humma Kavula
130 I believe he means that to take Pierre, who is paid a lot of money and isn't very good at baseball, the Reds would also have to take something of great value to offset his huge contract.

That something of great value could be money.

It could also be Brad Penny, who has a contract beneficial to whatever team he plays for.

2008-06-02 11:45:00
132.   bhsportsguy
128 Dunn would probably choose Texas over KC.

Since the Reds would probably not deal with the NL Central during the season, they would be limited to Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, Minnesota, and Texas.

In reality, Dunn does not want to be traded so I just don't think they will be able to pull a deal off during the season.

2008-06-02 11:45:41
133.   PhillyBlue
Which one of these young players is most likely not going to be in a Dodger uniform three years from now?:

a) Loney
b) Ethier
c) Broxton
d) Kemp

2008-06-02 11:47:52
134.   sweepstakes
133 B
2008-06-02 11:50:03
135.   blue22
131 - Penny needs to do something about that 5.66 ERA first.
2008-06-02 11:53:41
136.   Humma Kavula
135 While I agree in general, one could argue that Penny -- who makes $8.5 million this year and $8.75 next year -- is still a bargain.
2008-06-02 11:54:20
137.   Sushirabbit
totally off topic, I thoroughly enjoy reading posts on the Apple "discussion" boards.
2008-06-02 11:55:29
138.   D4P
The problem with not keeping Penny is that Ned will probably end up replacing him with:

1. Someone worse, or
2. Someone equivalent, but more expensive.

2008-06-02 11:57:17
139.   Sushirabbit
133, think it probably should be 'c' but is more likely to be 'b'.
2008-06-02 11:59:12
140.   fanerman
I would guess... B, then A, then C, then D. Maybe switch A and C depending on stuff.
2008-06-02 12:00:12
141.   LogikReader

Sounds like the next GM search too. The good thing though is, if Ned were ever to get the axe, he'd probably deserve it.

2008-06-02 12:00:15
142.   regfairfield
133 I'll say C, just because it's more likely that Broxton will completely collapse. All of those guys are Ned type of players, so I can't see them going anywhere.
2008-06-02 12:02:46
143.   Humma Kavula
141 I think that if Ned does get the axe, he will be replaced by somebody who (a) has been a GM before, and (b) has put together a WS-winning squad, but (c) has recently been fired.

The guy who fits the bill is Kenny Williams.

You read it here first.

2008-06-02 12:02:52
144.   scareduck
51 - HTML named entities work, also, viz


as entered, transliterating to


2008-06-02 12:03:17
145.   rockmrete
Could Penny, or someone else be tipping off pithes?

The reason I phrased that way is because it seems that every so often the opposition will light up one of our pitchers like it's the forth of July, or they know whats comming...Lowe, Broxton, Saito, Kuroda, and I think it happened to Bills.

2008-06-02 12:03:38
146.   sweepstakes
139-- What happened to the Broxton? He used to come in and it was lights out. Now it's shades of Tim Worell, Jim Gott. I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon, but big Jon has been real sketchy.
2008-06-02 12:03:53
147.   Humma Kavula
Reading 143 , it sounds like Williams has already been fired. He has not.

I think he will be fired.

And then I think Ned will be fired and Williams will be hired.

OK, I don't really think that. But I can see it happening.

2008-06-02 12:06:20
148.   underdog
145 I think that possibility was raised last season, too. Didn't Penny jaw at Shawn Green last year for stealing pitch signs or something? Anyway, I recall that being a concern. Whether it's a legit concern, or it was but then he did something to fix it (which I thought I heard something about, too), I'm not 100% sure. But you have to wonder. Penny's velocity hasn't been a problem. He has gotten some pitches up though, and batters don't need to be tipped on those to be able to crush them.

143 Argh. Now that's a disturbing thought. He'll make me miss Colletti, a lot.

2008-06-02 12:06:44
149.   regfairfield
Last year: 10.86 K/9, 3.96 K/BB, .65 HR/9
This year: 11.77 K/9, 3.44 K/BB, .75 HR/9

Broxton's numbers are a little down from last year, but keep in mind he's only pitched 23 innings. Just like Bills' ERA was in the sixes early this year, Broxton is just having some bad luck right now. He's fine.

2008-06-02 12:07:33
150.   sweepstakes
RE: possible GM replacements, does anyone here think Frankie Mac would consider Logan White?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-06-02 12:10:52
151.   scareduck
133 - A or B. Loney, as measured by some traditional metrics, isn't producing that well, it's true, and his absence of power is concerning; his .422 SLG is sixth on the team, and his .325 OBP is even more alarming, trailing the oft-derided Juan Pierre and good for seventh among regulars. None of those are good things for a player at an offense-first position. All that said, Loney is 24 and deserves the benefit of some doubt.
2008-06-02 12:12:21
152.   scareduck
150 - if the Yanks let go of Brian Cashman, he's a Dodger before you can say "winning track record". I would almost be willing to put a date on it: December 1 at the outside.
2008-06-02 12:13:32
153.   D4P
Loney, as measured by some traditional metrics, isn't producing that well

I actually think the reverse. From Ned's perspective, Loney's hitting .275 and leads the team in HRs and RBIs.

2008-06-02 12:13:50
154.   scareduck
143 - I understand the point, but consider that Dan Evans also came out of the White Sox organization, and FrankCo couldn't wait to fire Evans.
2008-06-02 12:14:59
155.   Bob Timmermann
Kenny Williams? Please, no?

For the love of all things decent, the man went to Stanford!

2008-06-02 12:16:26
156.   Humma Kavula
150 I already said that I didn't, but I'll explain why.

If Colletti gets replaced, it will be for some reason like "failing to build on the playoff success of 2006."

McCourt will say something like, "Dodger fans are tired of being told to wait till next year. I believe they have waited long enough and deserve a championship in Los Angeles. Kenny Williams did that in Chicago, and now, he can do it here."

It would be the move of a man more concerned with perception than grounded baseball decisions.

If he hires White, the first question will be, "But Colletti had backed the young team that White drafted and developed. How will a White administration be different from a Colletti administration? How does he represent the change you're looking for?"

But I could be wrong. If Colletti is fired, specifically, for backing Jones and Pierre, then he could say something like, "Logan White will be more adept at choosing the right veteran players to coalesce with our young stars into a championship team."

That's possible, but I'd bet on the former over the latter.

2008-06-02 12:17:39
157.   scareduck
153 - From Ned's perspective, Loney's hitting .275 and leads the team in HRs and RBIs.

This is approximately like saying the Rockies are a major league team. It has the advantage of being true and the disadvantage of telling you nothing about how bad they are. (I was going to say the Pirates, but the Rocks are actually 17 games under .500.)

2008-06-02 12:18:20
158.   D4P
the man went to Stanford

So did the Good Professor.

2008-06-02 12:19:33
159.   D4P
It has the advantage of being true and the disadvantage of telling you nothing about how bad they are

Ned doesn't seem interested in stats that actually tell you how good/bad a player is. He prefers bubble gum card stats.

2008-06-02 12:23:07
160.   Kevin Lewis
I too am looking at a car change to make room for the little one. Frankly, our 2001 Jetta does not cut it in space, and with the car seat in the back, my knees are getting too close to the steering wheel. I want better gas mileage too, which won't be hard with our sporty Jetta.

I will always choose used over new, and I have found some great deals online for late 90's Volvo Station wagons. Those are the good model years. I have seen 98 wagons with only 60,000 miles going for 8K. Of course, I would need to be able to take it to my mechanic, but I feel confident in the long term performance.

Oh well, that's my $.02

2008-06-02 12:24:17
161.   LogikReader
As I see it, odds are much better for Cashman getting hired than Williams. Make no mistake, the new Yankee regime thinks they know more baseball than Brian Cashman, and provided the Yanks finish out of the playoffs, the uppers will just let Cashman's contract expire. In McCourt's mind, Cashman has much more cache than Williams.

The article below indicates he's in the last year of a 3 year deal, although I didn't check for any recent extensions:

2008-06-02 12:25:36
162.   scareduck
No matter what happens, the past is going to be a very poor guide to the future. The market trend lately is to lock up young players early in their team control years before they have established substantial evidence of performance, i.e. two or more years. The long-term implications for this WRT the free agency market are staggering: free agents will now be far out of their prime years, in the main, with few exceptions; Frank Robinson and Barry Bonds types are rare enough before 30, let alone after it. That means that placing the right bets on young players acquired in the draft and in international scouting will become the absolutely most single important thing a club can do, followed shortly thereafter by player analysis and trade acumen.
2008-06-02 12:27:19
163.   underdog
Speaking of the Yanks, since the Dodgers are looking for utility infield depth... any chance they could re-acquire Boom Boom Betemit? He's not doing much in NY...
2008-06-02 12:27:34
164.   scareduck
161 - you meant "cachet", and yes he does.

Word in New York is that Cashman will be given the Torre treatment when his contract expires:

2008-06-02 12:30:06
165.   Humma Kavula
161 I have two thoughts on the matter.

1. I would agree that if the Dodgers don't make the playoffs and Cashman is on the market that McCourt would at least reach out to Cashman. If it's Cashman vs. Williams, McCourt would go with Cashman in a landslide. To that extent, I agree.

2. It's instructive to point out that as much as we think Colletti is a below-average GM, things could always be worse. We could have Kenny Williams. And, in a not-horribly-unlikely sequence of events, it could happen.

2008-06-02 12:31:23
166.   D4P
Can someone provide a list of good moves Cashman has made, beyond "Spending the league's largest payroll on big name players"? Doesn't take much skill to go out and sign big name players every year.
2008-06-02 12:33:21
167.   fanerman
166 I think Cashman has strived to get the Yankees back in a "drafting good players" mode of operation. Something about kicking out bad influences out of the front office.
2008-06-02 12:33:53
168.   Humma Kavula
166 Well, how about this:

The best player in baseball was available. Cashman's biggest rival had the inside track on trading for that player. He failed. Then, Cashman swooped in and got the deal done.

Now, there are lots of reasons that the A-Rod deal went down the way it went down, but at the end of the day, the guy was in pinstripes.

2008-06-02 12:35:03
169.   regfairfield
162 I do think this is a cyclical thing though. As less and less talented players become avaialable in free agency, more and more money is going to go to mediocre guys. If a Kyle Lohse type will improve your team, it doesn't matter if you give him 15 million if that money couldn't go to anything better anyway.

Because of that, players will see how much is going to mediocre players, and be more willing to hold out to free agency, or ask for 90-100 million dollar extensions instead of 40 million dollar ones. After this, more good players enter free agency, driving costs down, and the cycle repeats.

The teams that are most hurt by this are the ones who wait to act, since they'll be the ones shelling out the biggest value contracts before the market corrects itself. It might already be too late for the Dodgers to take advantage of this.

2008-06-02 12:35:55
170.   Eric Stephen
Maybe Penny can use his Rockies' magic to regain his form. He didn't pitch particularly well against them in two starts this year (12 IP, 6 R total on Apr 26 & May 2), but he got two wins. The Dodgers have won 14 of Penny's 17 starts against the Rockies, with Penny himself going 11-1.

Since facing the Rockies, Penny has given up 29 ER in 27.2 IP. Maybe the Rox can provide just the prescription Penny needs.

Also, the Dodger offense scored 11 runs in each of Penny's two starts against Colorado this season. Let's hope that trend continues, although 11 runs in the series might be more realistic.

2008-06-02 12:36:31
171.   LogikReader

Cashman is far from overrated, but whatever anyone's opinion of him is, he is leaps and bounds better than either Williams or Colletti could ever be.

I get the impression that a lot of the more bonehead moves were Steinbrenner moves pulled without his consent, i.e. the Kevin Brown trade and so on.

2008-06-02 12:39:33
172.   delias man
This Reynolds guy tonight is wild 8/15 k/bb. 6 HR allowed in 4 starts.
2008-06-02 12:39:44
173.   Humma Kavula
I get the impression that a lot of the more bonehead moves were Steinbrenner moves pulled without his consent, i.e. the Kevin Brown trade and so on.

The Fred Claire defense?

Until George or One of the Two Steinbrenners with the Same Name say otherwise, I think if you're the GM, the buck stops with you.

2008-06-02 12:41:09
174.   regfairfield
Cashman has also managed to continually acquire great players without giving up anything of value. After getting Javier Vazquez, the only player of any note he traded was Dioner.
2008-06-02 12:42:22
175.   old dodger fan
163 Betemit was on the DL from 4/14 - 5/6 and then again from 5/11 till 5/26.
2008-06-02 12:43:54
176.   Ken Noe
Would McCourt hire a GM who didn't have Torre's seal of approval? Of course not. So who would Torre want? Perhaps not Cashman.
2008-06-02 12:48:34
177.   underdog
175 - Ah, thanks, I hadn't caught that second DL stint. Well, we don't need more injury worries. He'd come cheap, though!

176 - That's the other question. What is Torre's relationship with Cashman?

Weird, when did this turn into Bronx Banter. ;-)

I'm looking forward to this Dodgers homestand and only worry that the team will relax too much now that they're home. Can't overlook the Rockies or take anything for granted.

2008-06-02 12:49:00
178.   scareduck
165 - People say that the 2001 Diamondbacks won that World Series despite Bob Brenley. Similarly, I think there's a pretty strong case that the 2005 White Sox got to the World Series and won it despite Kenny Williams. Williams caught a break in 2005 because just about every single thing that could go wrong with that team didn't. Jon Garland and Jose Contreras both gave the team career years. Orlando Hernandez, godawful in the regular season, pitched like an ace in the postseason. Waiver wire acquisition Bobby Jenks fixed his cranio-rectal inversion and became the team's scary closer. Jermaine Dye finally wasn't injured and performed like the player everyone thought he would be while he was with Kansas City. Scott Podsednik posted a career high .351 OBP, a vital stat for the team's leadoff man.

He got lucky more than he was good, though, as the team's subsequent performances attested. Maybe that's just parity talking, maybe it's the increasing difficulty of winning the AL Central (up to last year -- this year, there are too many teams falling apart for me to think it's not up in the air), but I haven't been that impressed with Kenny Williams' work.

2008-06-02 12:50:24
179.   Humma Kavula
177 Until we see multiple rule one violations, we aren't in Bronx Banter.

Not that there's anything wrong with rule one violations, so long as there's no rule one. BB has no rule one and likes it that way.

2008-06-02 12:52:53
180.   scareduck
177 - I've looked over the Rockies, and they're plenty overlookable. They have three of their big offensive players on the DL, their pitching staff is young and inconsistent, and they're already 17 games under .500. I wouldn't worry too much about the Rocks.
2008-06-02 12:54:13
181.   Humma Kavula
178 Maybe I wasn't clear in the way I wrote it... so...

I do not advocate firing Colletti for Williams. I would agree with your points about his skills.

I do think that under a not-horribly-unlikely set of circumstances, he could be the next GM of the Dodgers. That set of circumstances:

1. Dodgers miss the playoffs
2. Colletti is fired
3. Williams is fired
4. Cashman stays with the Yankees

If all four of those things happen, then...

2008-06-02 12:54:44
182.   Eric Stephen
The Orioles are moving closer to getting proper uniformity. Next year, they will have "Baltimore" on their road jerseys rather than the current "Orioles".

2008-06-02 12:54:47
183.   regfairfield
180 Agreed, they had one of those everything goes right seasons last year with great health, outstanding middle relief, and getting solid performance from junk pitchers. You can't stand pat after a season like that and expect to repeat.
2008-06-02 12:57:01
184.   D4P
You can't stand pat after a season like that and expect to repeat

On the other hand, if the GM makes big changes, he gets accused of "blowing up a World Series team".

2008-06-02 12:58:45
185.   Ken Noe
Two big questions, just thinking out loud. (1) If Ned's really worried about his job--he may me secure, for all we know--what might he do between now and August to "win now?" Would moving Penny, Broxton, Ethier, or Loney be all that surprising, given the immediate return of someone like Dunn? And (2), has Torre ever expressed an interest in a GM job? If he really wants Donny Ballgame to succeed him....
2008-06-02 13:01:54
186.   cargill06
178 aren't the quentin and swisher moves probably pretty good moves? also, the thome looks decent also.

what bad moves has be made, other than javy vazques? i'm not challenging your statement just curious as i'm not too familat with the bad ones.

2008-06-02 13:02:26
187.   regfairfield
184 Agreed, O'Dowd won't catch much heat for the team failing because "there's no way he could have expected this". I do think that he could have done something like trade Dexter Fowler for Mark Ellis (since they're pretty much in win now mode) and sign Kuroda without taking any real heat.
2008-06-02 13:03:08
188.   LogikReader
Hey again Eric,

Plenty of CELTICS related material on NBA TV today. ugh

looks like they emptied the CBS/Fox nba videos vault.

2008-06-02 13:04:22
189.   Humma Kavula
Are the Dodgers even interested in Dunn? His name has been tossed around here since, what, 2005? There was even an "Adam Dunn scouting excursion."

And would it really save Ned's job to add ANOTHER outfielder? What happens when Jones comes back?

2008-06-02 13:06:58
190.   cargill06
178 and orlando hernandez pitched 4 innings in the '05 post-season
2008-06-02 13:10:29
191.   D4P
Are the Dodgers even interested in Dunn?

No. Dunn couldn't be any less Ned's kind of player if he tried, unless he hit fewer HRs. That's the only thing about him that Ned is likely to appreciate. Everything else (high BBs and Ks, high OBP, low BA, bad defense) is contrary to Ned's philosophy*.

*If you can call it that.

2008-06-02 13:10:40
192.   cargill06
actually given how the white sox are constructed now the javier vazquez trade was probably another good move by kenny.
2008-06-02 13:10:46
193.   Xeifrank
How is it that Juan Pierre has yet to hit a triple so far this year? Loney has three and DeWitt has two. Niether one of those guys are exactly speed burners. I guess it helps to be able to hit the ball into the gaps once in a while, but no triples?
vr, Xei
2008-06-02 13:14:47
194.   MC Safety
Giving Scott Linebrink that much money was insane.
2008-06-02 13:16:08
195.   D4P
How is it that Juan Pierre has yet to hit a triple so far this year?

I wonder if it has anything to do with The Windmill being gone.

2008-06-02 13:16:10
196.   cargill06
194 ok, what other ones are there?
2008-06-02 13:17:02
197.   fanerman
193 Hitting a triple usually involves hitting the ball kind of hard?
2008-06-02 13:17:21
198.   regfairfield
196 If they don't make the playoffs this year, pretty much every move they made this offseason. Going from 72 wins to win now generally isn't do bright of an idea.
2008-06-02 13:17:23
199.   old dodger fan
193 He only has 6 doubles. I wonder how many of those are bloopers over the head of a corner infielder that dribbles toward the foul line and a corner outfielder has to charge? How many times has he hit a line drive between outfielders that went to the wall this year? I'll bet not many times.
2008-06-02 13:19:39
200.   cargill06
198 like i said i'm not trying to challenge your statement, i'm just curious which moves specifically? swisher and quentin seem like good moves, what other moves did they make?
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-06-02 13:20:32
201.   Andrew Shimmin
I won't believe that Colletti's job is in jeopardy until his contract is extended. McCourt likes to raise before folding.
2008-06-02 13:21:38
202.   MC Safety
196 That's all I got.

I should note I grew up idolizing Frank Thomas, so I should automatically be ruled out of this discussion. I hate Kenny Williams.

2008-06-02 13:22:48
203.   Eric Stephen
Thanks. That's cool, even if it's Celtics-related. I need to fuel the hate with some Cedric Maxwell and/or M.L. Carr towel waving.
2008-06-02 13:23:24
204.   regfairfield
200 If they fail this year, Swisher really wasn't a great move. All the moves they made this offseason almost insured that they won't be any good after this year for a long while. So they gave up a lot of talent that could potentially help them in the future for what would amount to nothing.
2008-06-02 13:23:48
205.   underdog
This was actually by another commenter elsewhere but I think it sums up (just some of) Kenny Williams' failings pretty well:

Ken Williams, whose strategy for building a team is having a plan and sticking to it...for one year, until the plan needs changing again. Scott Linebrink and Octavio Dotel for those years and that money? Not realizing that Scott Podsednik sucks? Trading Jon Garland for a shortstop (Orlando Cabrera) even though he re-signed his own shortstop (Uribe - who happens to be one of the worst players in baseball)?

He's also made some moves that could be argued to be fairly reasonable, even good.

In fact, Baseball Analysts argued his case awhile back and came away in favor of Williams.

2008-06-02 13:28:01
206.   underdog
(Granted that was almost 2 years ago)

I do think it's funny, though, this notion that there are really good GMs and really bad ones. I think all but the most addle-brained GMs make good moves and bad moves. Some seem to get the concepts we appreciate and value more than others; some adapt better than others. Most of them make mistakes and hopefully learn from it. Some get fired when they don't, or sometimes before they have a chance to learn. I am hard pressed to name a GM out there right now I'd have no doubt would be great for the Dodegrs or no doubt they'd be terrible. (Okay, there are a few, the Bavasis of the world, who would be undeniably worse.) Someone like Logan White could indeed be the best bet to be the next Dodger GM, especially if it was the only way to keep him, but we don't even know if he'd be a good GM either. Scouting intelligence doesn't always translate to other positions. We would however probably feel more confident that he wouldn't trade "the kids." But would that always be to our benefit?

I'm just thinking out loud here.

2008-06-02 13:28:21
207.   scareduck
181 - thanks for the clarification. I can absolutely see a clear line from point A (Colletti gets fired, a near-inevitability at this point) to point B (Kenny Williams hired).
2008-06-02 13:31:46
208.   sporky
From an interview with Brett Lawrie (

>>MH: You mentioned you really didn't have any favorite teams, but did you have any favorite players while growing up?

Lawrie: Everyone always has their favorite players. You have Alex Rodriguez… One of the guys I really like to watch is Russell Martin, a Canadian guy [with the Los Angeles Dodgers]. He's a catcher. He played on the national team, the national junior team. I spent some time with him in the off-season and I trained with him. The national team coach loves him as well. He didn't start catching until he came out of junior college, so I'm kind of doing the same thing that he did. I got a chance to see the way he lives and it's a pretty cool life. I'm ready to go.

MH: Did you learn anything specific from Russell?

Lawrie: Yeah, we had lots of talks about stuff like conducting yourself on and off the field. From a catching standpoint we worked on blocking, and a whole bunch of stuff. I also hung out with Dustin Pedroia from the Boston Red Sox. I went over to his house for dinner and I saw how those guys conduct themselves. It's a real treat and a pleasure to be in the presence of those guys. They took the time out of their lives to have an 18-year-old kid live with them. It was a fun time; it was cool. They're just guys. They're not people who are trying to be billionaires. They just like to have fun and do the things that guys do. <<

2008-06-02 13:39:41
209.   old dodger fan
I'll bet we have some tired Dodgers tonight. 8 pm game on the EC followed by a game on the WC the next day. I hope they have all learned to sleep on the plane.
2008-06-02 13:40:16
210.   sporky
When Ned is gone and Frank goes hunting for a new GM, and if Logan White gets passed over again, will he stay with the Dodgers?

In the vein of 162 , White seems to be considered the John Lasseter of the organization. I wonder how the front office/farm system would fare without him.

2008-06-02 13:40:19
211.   Bob Timmermann
The UCLA Store is selling game-worn football jerseys for 25% off!

I can get a Khalil Bell for $186!

It might not be his though. They look to be a few years old as they have the old curvy font.

2008-06-02 13:43:01
212.   silverwidow
I still want Brett Wallace (ASU) at #15. He's the power bat we need. Defense is not important right now.
2008-06-02 13:45:10
213.   Eric Stephen
Lowe should be well rested though, as he flew back yesterday in anticipation of tonight's start.
2008-06-02 13:50:52
214.   Andrew Shimmin
White's been an AGM for five minutes; Kim Ng has been an AGM for eleven years (seven in L.A.). She's the one I'd be worried about losing, if the McCourts go looking for a prestige GM. Which seems like a silly thing to do, to begin with. Maybe there are people who want to see Torre manage, but I don't think there are three tickets to be sold in any given year based on who the GM is.
2008-06-02 13:52:35
215.   dodgaBLU
so when are we getting Dunn? or are we just "dunn" for the year?

-pun very much intended and or metaphor and or failed attempt at sarcasm

2008-06-02 13:54:21
216.   regfairfield
I just want someone who's willing to listen to scouts, and at least have someone they listen to who can explain what VORP and SNLVAR are. Is that too much to ask?
2008-06-02 13:56:33
217.   sporky
214 I'm not trying to undersell Kim Ng (for semi-personal reasons, I'd love to see her as the first female as well as first Asian GM). But what are her strengths? Muzzling Colletti when he tried to trade Kemp and Billingsley? If so, enshrine her :)
2008-06-02 14:01:37
218.   Eric Stephen
Ng seems to be heavy on the negotiation side, working on arbitration cases and contract details. I'm sure she does other things as well, but I just haven't seen that reported.
2008-06-02 14:02:25
219.   Andrew Shimmin
217- I don't know what her strengths are. I'm not sure anybody does. But she's been handling the arbitration hearings for years, and hasn't gotten burned, even with Gagne where there was certainly some risk of that. So, that would seem to indicate that she's good at assessing the monetary value of players, which is important.

But outside of that, I don't know a way of isolating her contributions.

If a certain election had gone a different way, I'd think there was a very high chance of her taking the job, since the hook of the election would get the McCourts on television a lot. But it didn't, so I don't know.

2008-06-02 14:03:58
220.   underdog
215 We are not either one. :-)
2008-06-02 14:04:09
221.   Eric Stephen
This puts my 4-mile trek after the Coliseum game to shame. Per Tony Jackson:

Gary Wolber of Granada Hills, whose 5-year-old son, John, has been treated for autism at Mattel Children's Hospital, will walk 27 miles from his home to Dodger Stadium today for tonight's game with Colorado to raise money for the hospital.

2008-06-02 14:10:12
222.   Bob Timmermann
That was discussed earlier here. You must have been out that day.

But I'm driving the length of Sepulveda Boulevard Saturday. Or Sunday. Depends upon which day I feel more awake.

Long Beach to Sylmar.

2008-06-02 14:13:03
223.   delias man
222 They opened the 405 a few years ago.
2008-06-02 14:19:09
224.   Eric Stephen
Tonight's Rockies starter, Greg Reynolds, has the 2nd worst K/BB ratio in MLB (minimum 20 IP), at 0.533 (15 BB, 8 K). The worst ratio belongs to his teammate Franklin Morales (0.529, 17 BB, 9 K), who unfortunately is not slated to pitch in this series.

2008-06-02 14:20:48
225.   Humma Kavula
222 Please sing this song as you pass the Anawalt Lumber.

2008-06-02 14:21:28
226.   Eric Stephen
I missed a lot over the weekend. I saw my niece's dance recital on Saturday and didn't bother to record the game since it was for sure going to be a rainout. So I take full blame for the loss, especially since I turned on the car radio right as the bottom of the 8th inning began.
2008-06-02 14:24:26
227.   sporky
I forgot about DeJon Watson. I guess it does take more than 2 people to successfully restrain Ned.
2008-06-02 14:26:17
228.   Humma Kavula

The Incorrigible Hulk?

"Don't make me trade... you won't like me when I trade!"

2008-06-02 14:27:51
229.   Andrew Shimmin
University of Chicago (she's an alumna) Magazine has done a couple of profiles on Ng.

"Today I have a double role. As assistant general manager you oversee player development, professional scouting, trying to get talent into your organization. You're involved in trades, negotiating contracts with free agents and roster players. You're in charge of payroll, video operations, medical staff, amateur staff. You basically oversee the operations of baseball. As farm director you're in charge of a lot of the day-to-day movements within the minor leagues." (2005)

This isn't so good, but could just be sucking up: "[Ng] reads press reports on the team's performance and administrative moves. Often, she says, the press provides good ideas about the industry and the Yankees' place in it." (sometime between 1997 and 2001)

2008-06-02 14:30:42
230.   Andrew Shimmin
When I said 2005, I meant 2004.
2008-06-02 14:31:29
231.   natepurcell
From Keith Law's blog.

The Dodgers have renewed interest in Zach Collier, and they believe Hicks will be gone before their pick.

2008-06-02 14:32:05
232.   Andrew Shimmin
And I figured out that the other link was from 1998. So, she's had ten years to learn what the press is good for.
2008-06-02 14:33:57
233.   Humma Kavula

The Press!


(Whatiiiiis itGOODfor?)

Absolutely nothin'!

2008-06-02 14:37:14
234.   Bob Timmermann
There are ads on for "'Til Death" and they're labeled "For Emmy consideration."
2008-06-02 14:38:15
235.   Bumsrap
I don't think Colletti will think it wise to ask Frank to raise the salary budget in order to trade for a player making more than than the one leaving.

And trading away payroll by moving one or more of Pierre, Penny, lowe, Kent, Nomar, Schmidt, Jones, Furcal either requires getting equal salary back in return or eliminating most of the teams unable to absorb additional payroll.

2008-06-02 14:41:53
236.   Andrew Shimmin
Ng won the Mariano Rivera arbitration case, too. So, Broxton has got to be hoping she doesn't get the job, and leaves because of it.
2008-06-02 14:41:57
237.   KG16
This might be treading close to Rule 5 territory, but...

I think the tools a GM needs are not much different than those that a politician needs (or a lawyer, [he says looking towards Boston]). Basically, you need critical thinking skills and a general governing philosophy. Actual policy isn't as important because facts and circumstances are bound to change. Colletti strikes me has having the governing philosophy (albeit one I don't quite agree with) of reliance on PVL. I'm not convinced he has the critical thinking skills necessary to be much more than he already is.

In politics it's the critical thinking skills that separate hacks from stars. And I think it's the same in sports. Some guys can analyze a situation and respond accordingly, others simply react based on ideology. The really good (and thus rare) ones are the ones that can analyze a situation, think three or four moves ahead, and then act accordingly.

Then again, critical thinking skills are worthless if you don't have a governing philosophy. Without the philosophy in place, you don't really have direction. The thing is, it's easy to get a governing philosophy, they are a dime a dozen; so everyone's got one (usually). The question is, can you then develop it beyond the basic tenants (this usually requires critical thinking skills, and can sometimes be dangerous because those who don't develop beyond the basics will see you as a turn coat for dismissing some tenant or having some nuance in your thinking).

2008-06-02 14:45:26
238.   D4P
In politics it's the critical thinking skills that separate hacks from stars

I reject the notion that hacks and stars are generally separate in politics.

2008-06-02 14:50:24
239.   D4P
The biggest stars (in politics, entertainment, etc.) are often hacks with little self-respect or reverence for truth, justice, society, harmony, peace, etc. They care primarily about themselves and advancing their own careers, notoriety, legacy, wealth, etc., and sell out accordingly.

Style over substance.

2008-06-02 14:53:02
240.   CanuckDodger
231 -- Yes! I like Collier. And it is nice to know they want Hicks, but just fear he will be gone before #15. And no way would we have any interest in Brett Wallace. I bet the Dodgers are one of the teams that have dubbed him "The Walrus."
2008-06-02 14:57:56
241.   cargill06
i don't remember seing it referenced, but keith law ranked the dodgers '03 draft as #1 in baseball..

2008-06-02 14:58:13
242.   KG16
238 - that's funny

239 - I tend to disagree about the lack of self-respect among the biggest stars. I think it's fairly easy to spot who the guys are that you describe and who actually cares about their trade/profession. That doesn't mean that they won't debase themselves to make some money, but they'll also do penance for the temporary selling out.

2008-06-02 15:01:10
243.   bhsportsguy
240 That same blog said that Hicks is telling scouts/scouting directors that he wants to be drafted as a hitter only.
2008-06-02 15:02:30
244.   sporky
The average number of AGMs/organization is 1.14. There are 5 organizations that don't have AGMs, or call them something else. Discounting those organizations, the average jumps to 1.375. The Blue Jays, Dodgers and Nationals top the list with 3 each.
2008-06-02 15:02:59
245.   kinbote
Yippee! I'm caught up on comments. Unfortunately, I have nothing to add.

Here's a scouting report on Zach Collier (I like him too):

2008-06-02 15:03:20
246.   Bluebleeder87
221 that is such an inspiring story, thnks for sharing it Eric
2008-06-02 15:05:59
247.   kinbote
Chase Utley is 6'1" 200lbs. Zach Collier is 6'2" 185lbs. (and likely to fill out).

I'm not comparing the two, but I would like to see White target a high-upside high school hitter like Collier.

2008-06-02 15:06:58
248.   ibleedbloo
I have offered my tickets before but never had any takers, but I'm trying again. I have 4 tickets in Reserved 31, Row M…these are my season seats. You can have them if you want to pay the cost for me to email them to you which is $10.

I have the entire Rockies series available Today, Tomorrow, and Wednesday. Email amurvine at hotmail dot com if you are interested.

2008-06-02 15:11:43
249.   sporky
The Pirates GM Neal Huntington has Colletti beat with seven special assistants. Seven!

Ned only has five.

2008-06-02 15:16:29
250.   Bob Timmermann
Sean Ratliff of Stanford hit a grand slam in the top of the 5th to turn a 6-4 Pepperdine lead into an 8-6 Stanford lead.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-06-02 15:18:14
251.   Andrew Shimmin
JOE: What's an Associate Producer credit?

BILL: It's what you give to your secretary instead of a raise.

2008-06-02 15:18:55
252.   Eric Stephen
When I read your first sentence, I was thinking how could the 2003 Dodgers' draft be ahead of 2002 (Martin, Loney, Broxton, Pee Wee, Stults)? But then I realized Law ranked the Dodgers #1 of all the 2003 teams' drafts.
2008-06-02 15:20:14
253.   regfairfield
249 It takes a lot of guys to decide that signing Ty Taubenheim is the first step towards contention.
2008-06-02 15:22:55
254.   JoeyP
The next GM of the Dodgers needs to be a stat-oriented guy (knows how runs are created, which things are valuable, which arent, etc)----uses (not depends) on prospects as currency...and will not cower to Bud Selig but instead draft guys and pay above slot for them if thats what it takes.

The new GM needs to build around Bills, Kershaw, Martin, Kemp----> have more foresight at position changes in the minor leagues (it's ridiculous that it took this long to realize Kemp could play CF, and LaRoche play 2b)...

He (or she), needs to abandon the "lets have a 120mils payroll just so we'll for sure win 80 games" with a bunch of PVL without any upside. The new GM is going to need a thick skin, and instead of giving the team the Tomkos, Loaiza's, etc....instead promote the other propsects (Mcdonald, Meloan, Orenduff as examples here) that may at least have some upside.

I'd also like to see the new GM influence Logan White into drafting power hitting in the early rounds. Drafting pitchers every single year is getting old. Two hits (Bills/Kershaw), and a ton of misses, injuries, etc. Meanwhile, the big club has no home run power.

Hopefully Andrew Lambo last year, and maybe Brett Wallace this year will inject some power into this powerless organization.

2008-06-02 15:26:26
255.   Andrew Shimmin
Like skateboarding (for now), fantasy baseball is not against the law.

2008-06-02 15:26:37
256.   sporky
253 How many special assistants does it take to screw in a light bulb...
2008-06-02 15:34:53
257.   scareduck
Speaking of Colletti, I find it amusing that my piece on Ned Colletti wearing his Giants ring (this was discovered, mind you, at a Dodgers preseason rally!) is number two on a Google search for "Ned Colletti":

2008-06-02 15:35:27
258.   godvls
212- I still think the A's take Brett Wallace at #12. What position do you think he'll play professionally? He moves ok for a guy his size, but I'm not sure he's a 3B. All that said, I'd love to see Wally in a Dodger uniform.
2008-06-02 15:37:46
259.   regfairfield
There are three ways to make a contending team:

-Have a strong farm system
-Have a ton of money
-Getting a bunch of high upside injury prone/coming off a terrible year guys and praying

Since the third one is really only to be used in an emergency situation, and a GM can't really influence the second one, the first thing you should look for in a GM is the ability to construct a farm system, and I think because of that, your GM needs to be scouting first.

Stats come in when you need to actually evaluate who is an elite player, and who is a mirage. Your stat guy should be there to tell you that getting Juan Pierre is a bad idea, or that Fred Lewis is massively overpeforming his expected OPS and will plummet soon. Unfortunately, every team has access to this information, so there's not much advantage to be gained.

If you don't have a stat guy, your organization is terribly behind, but there's not much to gain from being particulary strong there since every team can't just rip off the Mariners and the Giants.

2008-06-02 15:37:53
260.   bhsportsguy
257 What about Phil Jackson, back before the Lakers won their first World Title under his coaching, he wore one of his rings from when the Bulls won the title during the playoffs.

And for all I know, he's wearing one of those now.

2008-06-02 15:38:57
261.   CanuckDodger
254 -- There haven't been a "ton of misses" at the top of the draft. In the last six years, the Dodgers probably have the fewest "misses" in baseball when it comes to the first few rounds of the draft. There have been some injuries, but that happens to every team's group of top draftees.
2008-06-02 15:40:03
262.   D4P
The Dodgers and Giants are "rivals" in a way that the Lakers and Bulls are not.
2008-06-02 15:40:42
263.   LogikReader
Is it ironic for an owner to hire a GM for publicity purposes and then have that GM be associated (not only associated but embraced) by their rival organization?

There you have bad publicity from the get go. Would the Yankees ever hire anybody who took pride in working for the hated Red Sox, whether through a garment or otherwise?

I thought it was amusing as well.

2008-06-02 15:41:23
264.   LogikReader

Why did you put "rivals" in "quotations"?

2008-06-02 15:43:02
265.   D4P
Why did you put "rivals" in "quotations"?

Heh heh...

2008-06-02 15:43:58
266.   bhsportsguy
259 But I still think the unanswered question is how much actual scouting does a GM do or even is responsible for? It has been reported that the Dodgers asked for Ethier as result of what scout said plus White saw him because he was playing with a lot of Dodgers in the Arizona Fall League that year.

Of all the areas of the Dodgers that Colletti has control of, I think the farm system and amateur scouting are the two where he relies of Watson, White and Ng the most to handle. Ned is not getting up in the morning and calling the managers of each club for reports.

This particular area has remained constant since 2002, through 3 different GMs. I would expect it not too change to much unless those in charge move on. But then again, White already has been replaced by someone with similar preferences.

2008-06-02 15:44:27
267.   Ken Noe
If Colletti doesn't survive, McCourt surely will choose the new GM on the advice of Torre. The idea that he would hire a GM that Torre didn't approve seems impossible. And two things will happen.

(a) Joe will say, "I really have liked working with White/Ng." OR

(b) Joe will say, "I always enjoyed playing/working with _____."

And that will be it.

2008-06-02 15:45:48
268.   bhsportsguy
262 I think fans put more stock into it than those who actually work in the game.
2008-06-02 15:46:22
269.   fanerman
Why is Colletti under the microscope? Because the team is not performing up to expectations? Is he ind danger of getting fired now? Or at the end of the season? If it's not until the end of the season, does that mean everybody is thinking the Dodgers are going to suck for the rest of they ear?
2008-06-02 15:46:34
270.   Bob Timmermann
Ed Barrow built the Red Sox into one of the best teams of the Teens. And then he left to go work for the Yankees.

Leo Durocher left the Dodgers to go manage the Giants.

Branch Rickey was let go/kicked out by the Cardinals and then went to go run the Dodgers.

Mike Montgomery is going to coach Cal next year!

2008-06-02 15:46:37
271.   fanerman
269 year*.
2008-06-02 15:51:01
272.   trainwreck
Henry Bibby and USC.
2008-06-02 15:52:10
273.   Icaros
Phil Jackson's Bulls rings are championship rings, though. Colletti's ring is a symbol of possibly the worst choke job in World Series history.

The fact that he is proud of being a loser is what has always amused me, but we've already debated this before.

Jackson says he wears his most recent championship ring when the playoffs start, so he was wearing a Bulls ring during his first title run with LA.

2008-06-02 15:52:18
274.   regfairfield
266 That is true, maybe the best thing is to just hire someone that will hire smart people, then listen to them.
2008-06-02 15:52:35
275.   bhsportsguy
272 Ken Norton and USC
2008-06-02 15:56:10
276.   silverwidow
Cory Wade is quietly becoming an excellent middle reliever.
2008-06-02 15:56:11
277.   gpellamjr
263 But it hasn't brought McCourt any bad publicity, has it? I mean, people seem to love Colletti.
2008-06-02 15:56:32
278.   scareduck
263 - No, and no.
269 - because the Dodgers are looking like a .500 team that won't make the postseason. I don't think they're quite that bad, but they're not especially good (I was guessing 85-88 wins, but with the right combination of bad luck and poor managerial choices, .500 is not out of the question).
2008-06-02 15:56:51
279.   LogikReader

Can't speak for everyone else, but I noticed every guy on the team is on pace to hit 15 home runs or less in 2008.

-- Brad Penny is having the year we all hoped would never happen.
-- Lowe is getting old.
-- Pierre is on the roster, playing every game. Subtly enough, I think this has an effect on the team.
-- Jury's still out on Kuroda
-- Furcal is missing significant time with no set timetable for a return.
-- Jones, for all intents and purposes, hasn't shown up (yet).

Other than that, I think the Dodgers can turn it around.

2008-06-02 15:57:09
280.   Vaudeville Villain

I think it's more a "bang for your buck" thing with Coletti this year. He's under the microscope for having a ridiculously expensive team that also happens to be buoyed by its least pricey players. If you're McCourt, you have to feel like someone could allocate resources better.


I think you underrate the importance of statistics analysis in a front office. Yes, every team has stats analysis, but every team also values that information differently. There are some teams that would be more receptive to the stat guy coming in and telling them that Fred Lewis actually kind of sucks, whereas some GMs would take the numbers and dump it in the garbage.

Yes, the numbers are available to everyone, but not every organization is valuing those numbers the same. That much is evident based on what we see from major league teams every single year.

2008-06-02 15:57:39
281.   Ken Noe
You have to produce when you're hired from a rival, though. Vince Dooley was an Auburn grad but he won at Georgia. Pat Dye was a Georgia grad, but he won at Auburn. But my Hokies ran off Ricky Stokes ASAP with catcalls about his UVa degree.
2008-06-02 15:58:58
282.   D4P
"Hiring Ned Colletti is the best decision I have ever made."

- Frank McCourt, 2007

2008-06-02 16:00:49
283.   Bob Timmermann
That must have made Jamie McCourt happy.
2008-06-02 16:01:42
284.   Sam DC
Wouldn't McCourt like to have an offseason and not fire anyone?
2008-06-02 16:02:03
285.   Icaros

You didn't have to personally see and hear that nonsense come from his mouth.

2008-06-02 16:03:07
286.   regfairfield
280 I think you're overestimating the number of organizations that do that. I really only think the Mariners, Giants and maybe the Dodgers are the only ones who refuse to place any belief in stats, and everyone else at least knows how runs are scored, the importance of DIPS, and has some kind of defensive modeling. You might be able to find some decent players that get overlooked by one organization, but at best you'll be able to find cheap stop gaps. You can't gain that much advantage by having a defensive model that's 5% better than the other guys.
2008-06-02 16:04:59
287.   Andrew Shimmin
283- That's President McCourt to you, bub.

Any of you vagrants want to take credit for this?

2008-06-02 16:06:34
288.   Andrew Shimmin
Is this is the last year of Colletti's contract, or does he have one more?
2008-06-02 16:08:16
289.   sporky
288 According to Cot's Baseball Contracts, he has another year left.
2008-06-02 16:08:29
290.   CanuckDodger
286 -- The Marlins. It surprises me that they always escape notice as the most ideologically old school organization in baseball when they have been that way for as long as I can remember.
2008-06-02 16:08:33
291.   D4P
Ned has one more year (before his extension).
2008-06-02 16:09:49
292.   regfairfield
290 Good point. It is funny that they probably have the closest thing to a slow pitch softball team in baseball despite that.
2008-06-02 16:10:33
293.   Vaudeville Villain

Do you really think that the following teams are actually listening to their stats guys?

Chicago (Both teams, really)
Kansas City

2008-06-02 16:11:53
294.   Eric Stephen
Former Stanford coach Trent Johnson says he would pick Brook and Robin Lopez #1 & #2 in the upcoming NBA draft.

2008-06-02 16:13:47
295.   regfairfield
Cincinatti, Baltimore, Minnesota, LAA - New GMs, too soon to tell.

Washington, Kansas City, New York, Chicago (Sox) -Why wouldn't you think they do?

Houston, Chicago Cubs - Probably not, no.

2008-06-02 16:15:16
296.   underdog
I'm just glad there's a game tonight. (Hopefully the Dodgers will win, too.) I've enjoyed the heck out of the discussion here today (sincerely), especially since I've been, as I said, reading Moneyball, and as with a lot of people here I'm both optimistic and yet worried about the Dodgers. But I get to the point where I hit a wall with Colletti Thoughts and just don't know what else to say or learn or care about.

All I know is that at this point in time, for the most part, the Dodgers have been sporting the starting line-up we all want to see (missing Furcal, and save for Pierre, and he hasn't been as terrible as feared), and so there they are, still with us, and now starting, and the team has still be inconsistent so we look for answers. I just preach a little patience, I guess.

Winning goes a long way to shift moods and decrease angst, of course. Or at least a little way.

2008-06-02 16:16:55
297.   regfairfield
I think the major thing that seperates a good GM from a bad GM right now is not understanding that if you aren't in line to win the division, or rebuilding, you're failing.
2008-06-02 16:17:36
298.   SG6
Is the role of a GM to make all these decisions him/herself? Or to be able to hire the right talent to make those decisions, then trust those people and their decisions?

I have no problem with Ned not being interested in stats, as long as he hires a guy that is (White) and relies on him (which is where Ned falls short - he may be making his own decisions independent of opinions of those hired - how else does one explain JP?)

2008-06-02 16:18:44
299.   regfairfield
298 Is there any evidence that White cares at all about stats?
2008-06-02 16:19:57
300.   gpellamjr
284 I didn't realize you could have both.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-06-02 16:25:52
301.   trainwreck
As long as Ed Wade is around there will always be a GM around making idiotic decisions with seemingly no care of advanced statistics.
2008-06-02 16:26:30
302.   underdog
It's funny to think as much as we love Logan White his drafting policy has been the exact opposite of Billy Beane's. Both have merits and have seen success of course, which is interesting. Beane loves college players with high OPS, regardless of "ceiling" or body type. White loves high school players, especially pitchers, with high ceilings who could develop into greatness. I wouldn't mind seeing either guy dabble a little in the other philosophy once in awhile.
2008-06-02 16:32:27
303.   Vaudeville Villain

I hope I don't sound confrontational, I'm genuinely interested.

I listed those teams, because in recent history, they have made moves that even a very weak mind in statistical analysis, (my own), seems to understand would be bad moves based on any kind of statistical analysis. Let's run the list:

Chicago White Sox: Employing Scott Podsednik for any reason. Signing Darin Erstad just a year ago. Relying on aging pitching with terrible peripherals after getting career years out of most of them.

Washington: Christian Guzman. Hanging on to Dmitri Young after a probably luck-fueled year.

NYM: This one I can't really defense, other than I find it hard to believe that Omar Minaya does much thinking beyond throwing money around.

Kansas City: Constantly signing aging, mediocre veterans, Jose Guillen this year, but also Mark Grudzialanek, Brett Tomko, Reggie Sanders and other players over the yearsthat a woeful franchise in desperate need of finding good, underrated, young players should not be trifling with. Letting Tony Pena Jr., Joey Gathright, and David DeJesus, rack up huge AB numbers.

2008-06-02 16:32:32
304.   Gen3Blue
If we are talking about the GM, I start by thinking Furcal is brilliant but injury prone. I think he will want a long and expensive contract and I for one wouldn't give it to him, based on the fact that he played a whole year with problems that truly put his offensive ability in range with JP, Bennett, Maza, or Hu. The alternative is that other people in the know chose to play him. I'm not dissing Hu, because you could play him for super defense and no cost, and put your 50mil into offense somwhere else.
2008-06-02 16:34:22
305.   D4P
Washington: Christian Guzman

Someone alert Sam DC.

2008-06-02 16:35:08
306.   scareduck
302 - Beane does. Look at his 2006 draft, for instance, in which he took two prep players with his first two draft picks:

2008-06-02 16:36:37
307.   CanuckDodger
299 -- No, there isn't, but White's field of endeavor, scouting amateur talent, is one where stats really are meaningless. There is no reason to believe White WOULDN'T pay attention to stats when evaluating MLB players.
2008-06-02 16:39:10
308.   Bob Timmermann
Yes, he's not Ch-ristian Guzman.

Remember people, "ch" is one letter in Spanish.

Unless that was one of the letters that lost its letter status a few years back.

2008-06-02 16:39:40
309.   underdog
306 - It's true, after I wrote that I started digging a little deeper. I only remembered what he'd done around when Moneyball was being written (and in the book) and then here and there after that. It's possible he's adapted his philosophy a bit (and Paul DePodesta not being there any longer, maybe that's affected it too?) but I think he still tends to prefer college players -- and it sounds (we'll see) like he's favoring Brett Wallace of ASU this year. But yes, he's gone against the grain, too.
2008-06-02 16:39:53
310.   CanuckDodger
302 -- The "Moneyball" way of drafting on the purest levels dead. Even Beane acknowledges that it was a failure, although he couches the admission in weasely terms like "we've evolved."
2008-06-02 16:40:35
311.   regfairfield
303 There's no problem with signing an aging veteran if he's not actually blocking anyone. Kansas City doesn't have enough high level prospects to play, so you throw in a Grudzielanek, hope he gains some trade value, then dump him. Even if he doesn't, you didn't really lose anything.

The Lee for Podsednik trade makes a lot more sense if yout think of it as a salary dump and Podsednik as the guy who just had to fill in the spot. The production they got from Iguchi, Pierzynski and Dye more than makes up for what they lost by going with Podsednik over Lee.

Plus, they keep going with Javier Vazquez despite him consistently under performing his perhiperals, so it's a bit of a balance to Buerhle.

I don't know if Jim Bowden's gotten more stat freindly, but he's made a lot of good moves the last two years and really only screwed up with Young.

A lot of teams have instances where they didn't do the sabermetrically freindly thing, but unless it's a constant thing, I wouldn't say they ignore their stat guys.

2008-06-02 16:41:21
312.   CanuckDodger
310 -- " dead," that should have been.
2008-06-02 16:41:36
313.   Eric Stephen
Tracy Ringolsby was quicker on the draw today:

CF Willy Taveras (rh)
RF Seth Smith (lh)
LF Ryan Spilborghs (rh)
1B Todd Helton (lh)
3B Garrett Atkins (rh)
2B Ian Stewart (lh)
C Yorvit Torrealba (rh)
SS Omar Quintanilla (lh)
RHP Greg Reynolds (rh)

LF Juan Pierre (lh)
CF Matt Kemp (rh)
RF Andre Ethier (lh)
2B Jeff Kent (rh)
1B James Loney (lh)
3B Blake DeWitt (lh)
C Dan Ardoin (rh)
SS Ching-lung Hu (rh)
RHP Derek Lowe (rh)

2008-06-02 16:42:40
314.   Tom Meagher
293 Detroit should probably be on any list like this. I don't know anybody in or with much knowledge of the organization, but I would be pretty surprised to learn otherwise. They have turned things around with a lot of money and improved talent scouting under the Dombrowski team, but figuring out how valuable players are, how much to trade for them, etc. has not been their forte. The best moves they've made have been the trades that netted them Polanco and Guillen, and in each case it was because they had a favorable trading partner (they could have signed Polanco in the offseason without giving anything up but a 2nd round pick, too). They've put a lot of money into proven closers (Percival, Jones), non-base percentage monsters (Pudge, Jacque Jones), and ridiculously-overpaid famous people (Sheffield, Casey, Ordonez).
2008-06-02 16:43:12
315.   Eric Enders
Beane has somewhat changed his draft philosophy from what's described in "Moneyball," at least as far as position players are concerned.

Of course, Moneyball is all about market inefficiencies and really has little to do with a specific player type. Beane was picking college players because those were the players that generally went underrated; that's where the bargains were to be had. With more teams now focusing on college players in the draft, the high school players may now be the so-called "Moneyball" players.

Logan White, on the other hand, seems to prefer high school players as a matter of principle and philosophy, unrelated to any market trends or inefficiencies.

2008-06-02 16:43:30
316.   sporky
I had completely forgotten about it, but the Kamenetzky brothers interviewed White last year. It's interesting enough.

2008-06-02 16:43:48
317.   Bob Timmermann
OK, "ch" is still a letter in Spanish as is "ll", but they are treated as two letters when you are alphabetizing things in Spanish.
2008-06-02 16:44:19
318.   fanerman
So, what's the over/under on which inning Martin comes in to resume catching? 6?
2008-06-02 16:44:39
319.   Bob Timmermann
With those lineups tonight, I think there will be more hits from the knitters at the park tonight.
2008-06-02 16:44:53
320.   D4P
although he couches the admission in weasely terms like "we've evolved."

I'm not sure that's weasely at all. In one sense, the whole idea behind "Moneyball" (or "new stats" and such) is the try new things and think outside the box in a (potentially never-ending) quest to find what works.

Contrast that with traditionalist thinking, which tends to assume that we already know what works so we don't need to try anything new. We can just use the old tried-and-true methods, and if they don't work out, we were just unlucky.

2008-06-02 16:45:22
321.   Eric Stephen
I say the Ragin' Cajun gets replaced via double switch in the 8th.
2008-06-02 16:46:18
322.   D4P
Kent sucked in the cleanup spot, so Torre moved him to #3. He sucked there, so Torre moved him back to cleanup.

I like it.

2008-06-02 16:48:00
323.   CanuckDodger
315 -- White probably does favor high school players on principle, and I think rightly, but in the past he has given a market inefficiency justification for what he does, saying that by the time he drafts the other teams have picked over the worthwhile college guys and left a lot of top high schoolers, and particularly top HS pitchers, on the vine.
2008-06-02 16:48:01
324.   underdog
That's interesting, thanks guys. It seems my philosophy about Beane's philosophy about... well, anyway, might be a bit outdated (though I still think he's going to take a college player in this year's first round, but again that's partially due to where he sees its strengths and weaknesses).
2008-06-02 16:48:05
325.   fanerman
317 If I recall correctly, when I was learning spanish in high school (early 2000's), our teacher said "ch" was mostly considered its own letter awhile ago and it's been modernized more recently to be 2 separate letters. In some of our older textbook/dictionaries, "ch" would be its own letter/have its own section of words. In newer dictionaries, words that start with "ch" are in the "c" section.

Of course everything that happened in high school is one hazy, sleepy, blur, so I might be wrong.

2008-06-02 16:48:11
326.   Vaudeville Villain

Yeah, but why pay money for established players that will put up weak numbers, when you can play your own crappy players for less money? And I refuse to believe that there are no players that these teams could be finding in the minors with nice numbers that merit a second look (thinking Jack Cust types, here). Possible AAAA players, but possibly not. Why don't they at least try?

2008-06-02 16:48:54
327.   scareduck
322 - you've heard of the Cycle of Life? This is the Cycle of Career Death Spiral.
2008-06-02 16:49:05
328.   Eric Enders
310 You're kind of piling on overstatements here.

It's pretty extreme to call Beane's college-only philosophy a "failure." Overall the A's have had tremendous success with college players in the first round -- Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Swisher, Blanton. Maybe it wasn't the bees knees like everyone said it was, but to call it a failure is not in alignment with the facts.

It's also a misstatement to call stats "meaningless" in amateur scouting. Relatively unimportant, sure. Meaningless, no way.

2008-06-02 16:49:23
329.   underdog
I think Ardoin is gonna rake against his former team tonight. Rake! Who's with me?!

{crickets chirping}

I need a nap. See y'all at game time.

2008-06-02 16:50:47
330.   Eric Stephen
Reynolds has 15 walks in 23.1 IP, including 8 in his last start. If the Dodgers aren't patient at the plate tonight, inquiries need to be made.

Reynolds has also given up 6 HR, including two in Petco Park! I smell an offensive night for the Blue tonight.

2008-06-02 16:51:57
331.   regfairfield
326 Because, marketing is important, and theres no reward for sucking with a 20 million dollar payroll instead of a 40 million dollar one.

I do agree that you should at least try to go with someone that's never gotten a shot, but guys like that are few and far between. For the most part, you might as well go with the veteran.

2008-06-02 16:56:53
332.   SG6
299 - very good point. I probably shouldn't have couched White as a stat guy, but as a draft, talent evaluator.

I'd assume some crossover though, and I'd love to know White's true assessment of Pierre, not that Ned may have even asked the guy. But if you can evaluate talent, that should apply to a Juan Pierre.

2008-06-02 16:57:27
333.   Icaros

I want him to play catch with Juan Pierre, a lot.

2008-06-02 16:57:36
334.   Eric Enders
Reynolds' control has been better in the past than it's been in the majors. However, his strikeout rate in the minors tends to indicate that his major league career will be brief and unspectacular.

So far, he looks like another first-round Stanford pitcher gone bust. I'm sure the Rockies are thrilled they picked him over Longoria, Kershaw, Lincecum, and Joba.

2008-06-02 16:57:54
335.   regfairfield
Though to counter my own argument, you really should try to pick up every failed prospect who runs out of options if you have no hope and run them out there, and having veterans prevents you from doing that.
2008-06-02 17:00:12
336.   Eric Stephen
SS Ching-lung Hu (rh)

I just noticed the spelling error by one of Tracy Ringolsby or Jack Etkin (both Rocky Moutain News reporters). Perhaps Hu can use this spelling error as motivation to come out of his slump.

Or maybe I'm grasping at straws here.

2008-06-02 17:00:37
337.   jasonungar07
Thank gosh Pierre is leading off with his .303 obp and 2 extra base hits and Kent is cleaning up with his 12 extra base hits and .381 slug. Saves me the time of watching us loose. I can read up on how to win.
2008-06-02 17:03:13
338.   CanuckDodger
328 -- The A's drafting philosophy depicted in Moneyball wasn't just "college only." It also entailed a heavy dependence on college stats to determine WHICH college players to draft. I stand by that my statement that that draft philosophy is "dead" -- as in, no team believes it anymore.

And I think "meaningless" is the word that BP's Kevin Goldstein applied to college player stats, at least when it comes to assessing players for draft purposes. They obviously mean something to college team success or failure.

2008-06-02 17:03:50
339.   Eric Stephen
To be fair, Pierre does have a .351 OBP on the season, although I know you were just using his OBP as leadoff man.
2008-06-02 17:04:15
340.   ucladodger
In other baseball news, Jay Bruce hit another home run today. This kid is amazing. Just imagine if Cinci didn't trade Josh Hamilton. That would be the most ridiculous outfield (combined with anyone else in left) for the next 5-7 years.
2008-06-02 17:04:17
341.   D4P
I can read up on how to win

When you're done, pass your findings onto our younger players.

2008-06-02 17:04:32
342.   jasonungar07
So who gets to 15 extra base hits first Jay Bruce or Jeff Kent. kent is up by 7
2008-06-02 17:05:10
343.   D4P
Pierre leading off:


2008-06-02 17:06:11
344.   jasonungar07
[ 339} And falling to the .333 range we all know so well
2008-06-02 17:09:33
345.   Bob Timmermann
Everybody knows Hu spells his name:


2008-06-02 17:11:17
346.   CanuckDodger
Long before the 2005 draft was ever held, I was big on Jay Bruce, Texas high schooler. I was big on him long before BA thought he would be a first rounder, and I hoped we would take him with our #40 pick that we ended up wasting on Hochever.
2008-06-02 17:39:13
347.   fanerman
346 You've silenced Dodger Thoughts with that comment.
2008-06-02 17:47:26
348.   GMac In The 909
346 How could the Dodgers take him at 40 when he was gone at 12?
2008-06-02 17:48:30
349.   Andrew Shimmin
There's a scorpion fighting a pepper shaker over at The Juice. Posting a 5250 word transcript of an IM conversation is a bold move. Some day, when scholars write about how the internet died, it should be good for a chapter.
2008-06-02 17:48:47
350.   bhsportsguy
347 Jay Bruce was taken with the 12th pick of the draft.

Certainly the Dodgers could have picked someone else aside from Hochevar (its been reported that White wanted lefty prepster Beau Jones who is now pitching in the Cal League for Texas's minor league team).

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-06-02 17:54:25
351.   silverwidow
Greg Miller has been great recently. Maybe he's turned the corner.
2008-06-02 17:57:00
352.   bhsportsguy

On a non-game day, there are 2 stories about the upcoming NBA Finals and 2 stories with a Laker/Celtic history angle in the LAT.

There was the game story and notes for the Dodgers.

2008-06-02 17:58:07
353.   CanuckDodger
348 -- I said "Long before..." I became interested in Bruce around autumn 2004. He was not considered a first-round talent then. Like Kershaw a year later, Bruce moved into first round rumors "late in the game."
2008-06-02 18:00:30
354.   Im So Blue
No one's posted the lineup yet?

Pierre, LF
Kemp, CF
Ethier, RF
Kent, 2B
Loney, 1B
DeWitt, 3B
Ardoin, C
Hu, SS
Lowe, P

I hope Russell gets the whole night off this time.

2008-06-02 18:07:50
355.   immouch
hope hu hits.
2008-06-02 18:07:54
356.   Eric Stephen
Rockies lineup as well in 313 .
2008-06-02 18:08:27
357.   Im So Blue
Oops, 314 had both lineups so I missed it. I'll slink back into lurkerdom.
2008-06-02 18:16:23
358.   immouch
i was thrilled yesterday that d. young got a start (his 2nd of the season, hey!)... but i hope 4 ABs against Santana and whoever came in to mop up don't qualify as "a shot." he's back on the bench tonight for reasons that have to do with... ?
2008-06-02 18:16:29
359.   bhsportsguy
Tony Jax gives update on the Schmidt rehab assignment.

Sounds like MLB is perfectly fine with the Dodgers exploiting the loophole in the rules. Jason Schmidt's rehab assignment for his right shoulder stopped days short of the 30-day limit when he ``suffered'' a ``left calf injury'' in his most recent rehab start.

That means the clock will start all over again when he makes his next rehab start, as long as he doesn't make it before Sunday.

He also reports that Furcal is resisting a rehab assignment and Nomar took BP today. (which is not a big deal since I saw Nomar take BP a little over 3 weeks ago.)

2008-06-02 18:28:20
360.   underdog
358 - Reasons that have more to do with getting Ethier back in there, I would assume. I haven't seen much evidence that Young is in a doghouse or on the verge of getting cut, at least, and heck even Terry Tiffee got a PH appearance yesterday over Sweeney so I still think Sweeney is more in danger of getting cut soon, and Pee Wee will get more looks during this long stretch without a break. Hoepfully anyway.

359 - I'm probably being impatient or selfish, but am kind of glad Furcal is resisting a rehab assignment. If he's healthy to play, activate him for heaven's sake, we need him!

2008-06-02 18:32:57
361.   underdog
(gamechat) Post

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