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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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2008-06-12 11:50
by Jon Weisman

Matt Kemp's suspension has been reduced to two games. (Kemp will sit out games today and Friday.)

Will Jake Peavy reduce the Dodgers to tears?

Dodgers at Padres, 12:35 p.m.

* * *

For fans of Battlestar Galactica and The Wire, Brian Lowry of Variety has a commentary linking the two series together in our Emmy Drama Preview.

Comments (458)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-12 11:54:33
1.   delias man
I wish I had the guts to NOT watch this game.
2008-06-12 11:57:24
2.   Eric Stephen
What happened to the manager that gleefully played newly acquire Wilson Betemit at SS in his 2nd game after his previous organization pigeon-holed him as "just a third baseman"?

The box outside of which our current manager refuses to think is constraining the club.

2008-06-12 12:00:29
3.   LogikReader

Are you implying that there are "greater forces at work?" a-la Al Davis?

2008-06-12 12:01:58
4.   Neal Pollack
It took 65 games before serious Torre dissatisfaction set in.
2008-06-12 12:03:34
5.   LogikReader

...not unlike certain officials during Game 2 of a championship series.

In Boston!

2008-06-12 12:04:09
6.   Eric Stephen
Haha, no. I'm just frustrated that Torre isn't making choices I would make, that's all. Besides, I'm already a fan of one Al Davis team (which won't succeed until he's dead, btw). I don't think I could stand rooting for another.
2008-06-12 12:06:48
7.   Jon Weisman
I had planned to write about Torre today, until life and work intervened. But something tells me it will come.
2008-06-12 12:07:13
8.   MonkeyBlue
I'm going to look a head of the schedule since the Dodgers are playing against Peavy. I think Kent should be DH for the Tiger series.
2008-06-12 12:07:26
9.   underdog
Don't look at this if you're eating lunch, but this wins the award for worst video box art ever:

2008-06-12 12:08:32
10.   underdog
8 - We fans of The Rock are planning on him playing a lot in that series, whether in field or at DH. If not, then there will be an unhappy underdog out there protesting.
2008-06-12 12:09:00
11.   Eric Stephen
I would agree if that would guarantee a Maza-free lineup, but might as well keep Kent at 2B so LaRoche can play (assuming he won't start at 2B).
2008-06-12 12:09:16
12.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
There's a lot going on with that lineup. Pierre in CF, no LaRoche... woof. Might Berroa/Maza be the worst middle infield in history?

On the plus side, Young gets another shot.

2008-06-12 12:09:52
13.   arborial
got LATed on the last one. My point more concisely is that Torre isn't stuck in a box i.e. Martin started at 3rd. The problem is that his decisions are irrational.
2008-06-12 12:10:05
14.   OhioBlues12
How hard is it to write this lineup out?:

Young LF
Ethier RF
LaRoche/Kent 2B
Loney 1B
Kemp CF
Martin C
DeWitt/LaRoche 3B
Berroa SS

Seriously it gets tiresome losing games because of poor roster management and it has been happening under several different managers and GMs now. Put the best players out on the field and let them play, it really is that simple.

2008-06-12 12:10:26
15.   Daniel Zappala
Was it Nate who was looking for a job?

2008-06-12 12:10:45
16.   El Lay Dave
8 Only if LaRoche plays 2B, not Maza.
2008-06-12 12:11:20
17.   bigcpa
Maybe Luis Maza will be the answer to a trivia question such as "who were the 2 stiffs playing over Ryan Braun in 2007 when the Brewers missed the playoffs by 2 games?"
2008-06-12 12:11:36
18.   bhsportsguy
Okay, first, Betemit had played almost his entire minor league career at shortstop (over 500 games), it wasn't until his last stop in AAA did he play 3B and that was because the Braves had Furcal at SS already.

He still played some shortstop in Atlanta but primarily played third base.

And it wasn't as if he played a lot last year in place of Jeter, 4 starts and 8 games.

Second, Andy LaRoche has played second base in the last few weeks at second base. He had not played there at all since signing in 2003.

Hey, I know people are frustrated and want to see the best lineup in the game but really I think comparing how Torre handled Wilson Betemit last year and how he gets playing time for LaRoche this year are two different things.

2008-06-12 12:11:40
19.   CodyS
14 How good a team do you think we would be then? .490? Dare we dream .510 even?
2008-06-12 12:11:41
20.   LoneStar7
12 as far as batting goes...I think Hu and Maza's tag team could of been historically bad had the berroa acquisition not been made
2008-06-12 12:11:51
21.   Eric Stephen
Alfredo Griffin / Dave Anderson might give Berroa/Maza a run for their money.
2008-06-12 12:12:55
22.   underdog
I don't agree with this, but my guess is Torre trusts Maza's defense more than LaRoche at 2nd, having not seen the Rock at 2nd yet, and since Kuroda hasn't often gotten much defensive support. Of course, he hasn't gotten much offensive support either, and that duo up the middle pretty much guarantees he won't. I'd rather see Maza at short and LaRoche at 2nd, which would be a bit better offensively and no worse defensively.
2008-06-12 12:13:45
23.   Bluebleeder87
I hope the Dodger jitters make him throw a lot of pitches...
2008-06-12 12:14:18
24.   Daniel Zappala
Do other teams have this problem with their lineups -- meaning choosing the right players to play every day? If we interviewed the best bloggers for each team, how many team blog communities would be as frustrated as we are?
2008-06-12 12:14:28
25.   El Lay Dave
12 How about the up-the-middle defense of Berroa-Maza-Pierre? At least both current Dodger catchers are good defensively, but imagine, just for a moment, if Gary Bennett were resting Martin today.
2008-06-12 12:15:57
26.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
20 Agreed at the plate, but at least Hu was a positive in the field.

21 Good call. Or anyone who was paired with Jose Offerman in the mid 90s.

2008-06-12 12:16:23
27.   bhsportsguy
24 I think it happens a lot, for instance I get updates everyday from Baseball America and I see Chase Headley's name playing OF in Portland and I wonder why he is not in San Diego.
2008-06-12 12:17:09
28.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
25 Good god, man! Bennett/Berroa/Maza/Pierre at the same time might just cause the earth to run backwards.
2008-06-12 12:18:40
29.   regfairfield
25 Tampa's Wiggington-Harris-Upton combo last year was pretty brutal.
2008-06-12 12:18:57
30.   Eric Stephen
I'm not saying LaRoche should be the everyday 2B. I just honestly believe Maza should never start over LaRoche, ever. Unless LaRoche's defense is atrociously bad (which it might be). Why have LaRoche play 2B in the minors if you never plan to play him there in the majors?

What more does this team have to go through to make Torre think it might be time to change some things up?

2008-06-12 12:19:28
31.   El Lay Dave
22 But the organization planned for this by having LaRoche play some 2B before the callup. Who's coordinating this overall effort, hmmm?
2008-06-12 12:20:49
32.   underdog
28 - Maybe they can solve global warming with that though!

It's like something out of Superman I.

24/27 - It's true, I hear from a few fans of the Giants, Padres, Mariners, even the Tigers and Indians from time to time griping about lineups. Then you look at a team with a stable lineup that no one disagrees with - the Yankees - and that lineup isn't producing with much consistency either. Not sure if that's because a particular player needs to sit more often, or that they just need to ride it out, but... (Btw, Derek Jeter seems really over the hill to me these days, but he's a fan favorite and is trotted out there every day with regularity. Maybe Nick or someone could clue me in on that...)

2008-06-12 12:20:57
33.   Daniel Zappala
25 I can picture a steal attempt by the Padres, Bennett throwing in the dirt to Maza, Maza failing to scoop it out, and the ball goes into CF. Pierre picks it up and whiffs on the throw to third. Berroa backs up DeWitt and nails the runner in the back as he scores.
2008-06-12 12:22:13
34.   Neal Pollack
I think a lot of organizations struggle with running out the best lineups. Look at Jim Tracy's Pirates as opposed to this year's. Even good teams like the Cubs tinker unsuccessfully from time to time. But the problem with the Dodgers is lineup obstinance/mismanagement combined with bad general managing, topped off with this crazy "veterans/youngsters" mental block from which NO other team seems to really suffer. There is something fundamentally wrong with the way the organization views itself, and that's why I think it will be hard for the Dodgers to succeed as they're currently constructed.
2008-06-12 12:22:32
35.   underdog
31 True, true. I'm just gonna wait a little bit to see - if LaRoche doesn't play at 2nd at all, then clearly something is off or they are not on the same page. Still, I was expecting him to play more 3rd and 1st, based on his playing time in the minors and what I'd heard. But he should certainly be playing there more often, for a team that needs offense, when Kent sits.
2008-06-12 12:22:46
36.   Eric Stephen
I wonder if a runner has ever been knocked out or at least knocked down by an errant throw, only to be tagged out because of it.
2008-06-12 12:24:01
37.   Daniel Zappala
32 Serious question. If Jeter was not on the Yankees and in the World Series all the time, would his numbers be good enough for the Hall of Fame?
2008-06-12 12:25:03
38.   El Lay Dave
If Tommy Lasorda could try Pedro Guerrero at 2B, Joe Torre can try Andy LaRoche there.
2008-06-12 12:25:21
39.   silverwidow
LaRoche looks like a natural 1st baseman. I wouldn't mind if he stays there for us and we move Loney.
2008-06-12 12:27:05
40.   Daniel Zappala
34 So we have a perfect storm on our hands? Is there any other team where a fantastic prospect like LaRoche or Kemp would have been treated with disdain? Wouldn't they either be trumpeted as the best ever (NY, Boston) or just quietly slipped into the lineup on an everyday basis (Twins, Royals)?
2008-06-12 12:27:24
41.   underdog
37 Good question. I recall hearing some disagreement about whether Jeff Kent should be in the hall of fame. His numbers are indisputably great when it comes to second basemen, but maybe not as great as some would think deserves a slot there. (Recently the Fox announcers said he should and ESPN's Rick Sutcliffe said no.) So if Kent is up for debate, I don't think Jeter's numbers deserve it, even with the World Series rings. Just mho. I'm sure my dad would disagree. ;-)
2008-06-12 12:28:24
42.   Eric Stephen
My initial thought: yes, Jeter would be a HOF even if in Pittsburgh or KC.

Upon further review: yes, definitely.

Here are the all-time OPS+ leaders for SS (or primarily SS):

Wagner 152
A-Rod 147
Vaughan 136
Nomar 125
Jeter 121

2008-06-12 12:28:50
43.   bigcpa
40 The Twins were equally cautious playing Mientciwietz over Morneau and starting Rick Reed!!! over Santana.
2008-06-12 12:29:10
44.   ToyCannon
Still, if you are going to make the decision that you have to play Martin for offense since Kemp is not in lineup it doesn't take much to decide you need LaRoche for offense. If that means playing him in LF and D Young at 2nd or playing him at 2nd, I think you have to have LaRoche playing today.
We are talking about replacing Kent on defense not Orlando Hudson. If this was vintage Peavy he'd be flirting with a no hitter today. At least LaRoche would make him work toward that 90 pitch count.
He should need about 9 pitches to care of Berroa 3 times.
2008-06-12 12:29:34
45.   arborial
0 I like the title. As a cook, you reduce a sauce to make it more potent and concentrated. Let us hope that Kemp's time off does the trick
2008-06-12 12:30:25
46.   LoneStar7
39 I don't think loney has enough lateral mobility to play second, and probably not enough arm to be an affective 3rd baseman, although maybe, he was a pitcher he got strength, but his arm was suspect in that angels series...I really don't know

why not dewitt at second?

2008-06-12 12:30:43
47.   Eric Stephen
Jeter is going to end up with well over 3,000 hits, and has an outside chance at 4,000.
2008-06-12 12:30:57
48.   regfairfield
37 Yep. The guy's almost a mortal lock for 3000 hits, and has a much better career OPS+ than Ripken.
2008-06-12 12:31:08
49.   Eric Enders
37 Absolutely slam-dunk yes. Overrated as he is, even if Jeter were a Kansas City Royal he would be a first-ballot Hall of Famer.
2008-06-12 12:31:36
50.   Neal Pollack
I really do believe we have a unique confluence of complaints. Ned Coletti's cozy relationship with mainstream media figures, where he can get across his totally misguided point of view, doesn't help matters either.

Procedural question: What's the code for linking to a previous comment?

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-12 12:31:59
51.   regfairfield
46 The whole left handed thing is a problem too.
2008-06-12 12:32:24
52.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
Hi, random question. Does anyone know what's the average number of pitches per inning? And are recent trends showing that number increasing, decreasing, or not changing much? Thanks in advance.
2008-06-12 12:34:04
53.   Eric Stephen
I think he meant "move" Loney the way JoeyP means "move" Loney.

And I disagree LaRoche looked like a natural at 1B. He stands too upright at the bag, almost Karros-esque. It's probably due to unfamiliarity at the position, but he doesn't naturally stretch for the ball. Loney is like a contortionist near the bag.

Also, LaRoche looked a little tentative on his ground balls, specifically on if/when to throw to the pitcher covering, but nothing too worrisome.

2008-06-12 12:34:16
54.   Eric Enders
46 A left-handed second baseman would have problems turning the double play.

This organization won't play guys who can hit at second base even if they've played there capably in the past. (see: Young, DeWitt, LaRoche). I think asking them to put a lefty out there is a little much.

2008-06-12 12:34:48
55.   fanerman
50 Put brackets outside the numbers. ie [ 50 ] without the spaces.
2008-06-12 12:35:05
56.   underdog
So is Kent considered a lock for the Hall, too, then? I presume yes...
2008-06-12 12:35:26
57.   Neal Pollack
Here goes nothing...
2008-06-12 12:35:42
58.   Eric Enders
52 I don't know the exact number, but yes, it's always been gradually increasing since MLB started in the 1870s.
2008-06-12 12:36:07
59.   Daniel Zappala
42 What about defense?

And you left off #6, Lou Boudreau, one of my favorites from Superstar! Baseball.

2008-06-12 12:36:49
60.   bhsportsguy
50 Use [] around whatever number you want to link at.

Also, here's the thing that frustrates some, the opinions's put out by management don't differ that much than conventional baseball thinkers. So it really doesn't matter how cozy you think the relationship between Ned and the media is, basically they are just doing what most media think they should be doing.

And as my role seems to be here at times, you can for the most part, use facts to back up what they are doing. It might not be the facts others might want to use, but you can find them and use them.

2008-06-12 12:36:57
61.   underdog
Not a bad start for our crummy lead-off hitter. Sometimes he can not suck.
2008-06-12 12:37:47
62.   Penarol1916
46. I assumed that the suggestion to move Loney was a trade not a position move, did I read that comment incorrectly?
2008-06-12 12:38:30
63.   fanerman
Pee Wee does the "little things," like getting the runner over.
2008-06-12 12:38:36
64.   D4P
That kind of thinking is partly what keeps him in the lineup. Management focuses on certain Pierre outcomes (e.g. singles and stolen bases), while ignoring all the other things that he can't do very well (pretty much every thing else).
2008-06-12 12:39:20
65.   MonkeyBlue
Can't believe Ethier chased that ball.
2008-06-12 12:40:13
66.   LoneStar7
62 now that I look at it, I guess that probably was what was meant...I didn't realize the Joey bandwagon was growing
2008-06-12 12:40:43
67.   regfairfield
59 Count the Gold Gloves.
2008-06-12 12:40:49
68.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
58 Thanks, I guess.
2008-06-12 12:40:52
69.   Eric Enders
56 I'm not a big fan of the "if so-and-so is in, then this other so-and-so must get in also" line of thinking. However, Jeter has had a significantly more valuable career than Kent simply by being a shortstop. They have about the same career value as hitters, but Jeter will probably blow by Kent in that regard soon enough. They're not really comparable players. Jeter's been better.

But yes, I think Kent should be in too.

2008-06-12 12:42:23
70.   fanerman
Doesn't Kent automatically get in for being the all-time second-baseman HR leader?
2008-06-12 12:43:17
71.   fanerman
Aww. That was a good chance to get a run.
2008-06-12 12:43:40
72.   Eric Stephen
I would imagine that's enough to get him in, unless he's penalized for being in the steroid era.
2008-06-12 12:44:19
73.   Fallout
14 OhioBlues12
Seriously it gets tiresome losing games because of poor roster management and it has been happening under several different managers and GMs now...How hard is it to write this lineup out?

If you perceive poor roster mgt under several managers and GMs maybe it's not as simplistic as many think. Opinions are like tongues...everybody has one®.

2008-06-12 12:44:35
74.   regfairfield
72 Has anyone not made the Hall based because of their defensive reputation?
2008-06-12 12:45:35
75.   Daniel Zappala
Can someone help me out? I think the baseball board game I remember playing as a kid was Superstar Baseball, but I'm not entirely sure. I remember it had individual cards for players, and all the players were the all-time greats, so that is how I learned about Christy Mathewson, Mordecai Brown, etc. I think you made your lineups, matched up a pitcher and hitter, and rolled the dice to find the outcome.
2008-06-12 12:46:44
76.   fanerman
Wasn't Kent a competent 2B in his younger days? It was only these LA years where his range shrunk?
2008-06-12 12:48:09
79.   MonkeyBlue
Best hope for a dp right now.
2008-06-12 12:48:10
80.   regfairfield
76 He was underrated before, but he's always had a terrible reputation for defense.
2008-06-12 12:48:25
81.   Neal Pollack
Well, at least we won't have to keep this one all day.
2008-06-12 12:48:30
82.   underdog
Not a good start for Hiro here.
2008-06-12 12:48:42
83.   fanerman
Not a good start.
2008-06-12 12:48:42
84.   MonkeyBlue
And the Dodgers just lost the game.
2008-06-12 12:49:00
85.   bhsportsguy
2008-06-12 12:49:54
86.   skybluestoday
Ick. Game over?
2008-06-12 12:50:02
87.   underdog
Maybe it didn't matter who we put in the line up today, since Kuroda seems to have brought his Z game.
2008-06-12 12:50:09
88.   Eric Enders
74 No.

Baseball is a self-correcting sport in that way. No player whose defense would be bad enough to keep him out of the Hall has ever been allowed to accumulate enough playing time at the position. There have been tons of second baseman worse than Kent defensively and tons of shortstops worse than Jeter defensively, but they are never able to stick long enough to compile a HOF career.

Usually guys who are that lousy as middle infielders get moved to another position right away. This is why we didn't see Chipper Jones, Gary Sheffield, or Hank Aaron remain shortstops.

2008-06-12 12:50:19
89.   fanerman
Umm, yeah. More fuel to the Ardoin = Kuroda Caddy?
2008-06-12 12:50:42
90.   underdog
I guess Hiro needs Ardoin as his personal catcher every time now.
2008-06-12 12:50:43
91.   cargill06
2008-06-12 12:51:00
92.   27indigo
I seriously hate Joe Torre.

I don't blame Kuroda for throwing gopher balls. His manager clearly doesn't care about scoring runs today, so what's the point of even pitching a good game?

2008-06-12 12:51:36
93.   D4P
Who's to say that Berroa, Maza, Kuroda, and Pierre won't hit back to back to back to back HRs for a Dodger victory?
2008-06-12 12:51:40
94.   Jon Weisman
89 - It means Bennett will replace Martin on the roster.
2008-06-12 12:51:46
95.   underdog
Rick Honeycutt just had the same expression on his face and the same frustrated slump back in his seat that I did. I feel ya Rick.
2008-06-12 12:51:58
96.   bhsportsguy
92 Check sarcasm at the door.

Really, you honestly believe that.

2008-06-12 12:52:18
97.   MollyKnight
I think I've seen enough.
2008-06-12 12:52:24
98.   underdog
92 is just beyond ridiculous. I'm sorry.
2008-06-12 12:52:35
99.   D4P
Plunk! Charge the mound, Kouzmanoff!
2008-06-12 12:52:42
100.   bisonjones
Hi all, longtime reader here just checking to see if I am really able to post. I am a New Yorker who was brainwashed (at age 2) to be a rabid Dodgers fan by my dad (who is from LA but moved to NYC in the early 60's). I gotta say this has been a rough, gulp, 20-year stretch.

I very badly want the young guys to step up and create a beautiful foundation for the future. What a pleasure it would be to root for so many home-grown guys that we have watched develop. They need some protection, though, and it doesn't feel like it's gonna come in large enough doses from Kent or Jones (although, if he can be even as mediocre as he was last year when he comes back, it'll be a huge improvement).

I was very excited coming into this year, as excited as I have been as a Dodgers fan in the last 10 years. I was shocked (in a good way) that none of the young guys got traded. But, I have decided to lower my expectations for psychological protection. There is a certain kind of inurement that goes along with rooting for the team this year. I was at the Mets game last week with my Dad and 8-year-old daughter (her 1st game!) when Broxton melted down, and you could feel it coming - Ouch.

And yet, they are still in it given the ridiculous weakness of the NL West.

Sorry to rant and not really add to the current thread. I happen to be on jury duty right now and figured this was a good opportunity to say hi and let you guys know how informative (and silly in a good way) the quality of your discussions usually is. Cheers

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-06-12 12:53:24
101.   skybluestoday
Sigh. The road goes on forever.
2008-06-12 12:53:36
102.   Bob Hendley
I just tuned in, but I seem to be a bit early. When is Pads batting practice over? Wait, they practice being HBP?
2008-06-12 12:54:36
103.   GobiasIndustries
I just logged on and saw today's god. I'm really trying to stay positive about this team and not get too down but then I see a lineup like today's and I just can't. What is Torre saving or resting our "best" players for? By best, I mean those that give us the best chance at actually winning a game. LaRoche comes up last night and homers (something the entire squad seems to be incapable of doing on a regular basis)so he sits the next day? Seriously? What's wrong with Jeff Kent? Is he just so old that he requires every third day off? If he's not asking to be taken out of the lineup, he should be in there everyday or until he proves to be totally ineffective. Same goes for Kemp. There is no way around two black holes in the bottom of today's lineup with Berrora and Maza. You just can't expect to win when you are all but assured to have your 7-8-9 hitters go 0 for, or 1 for the day.
2008-06-12 12:54:52
104.   underdog
100 Welcome Bison! Nice name. ;-) I hear ya.


Well, on the plus side, I had a lot of work to do today.

2008-06-12 12:55:41
105.   NWdodger
Let's hope Peavy can't last five innings. I hate to see his dominance continue.
2008-06-12 12:55:53
106.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
100 Not enough Dodger fans here in NYC. I get stopped by people all the time when I walk the streets wearing Dodger hat/gear.

Mostly by homeless people trying to make a connection by saying, "come on bro, I'm from Ventura/Long Beach/Santa Barbara", etc... but still.

2008-06-12 12:55:54
107.   underdog
I'm taking roll, and just want to make sure -- is there anyone left who hasn't commented on today's line-up? Just want to make sure I have everyone accounted for. :-/
2008-06-12 12:56:29
108.   sporky
Will Kuo pitch today after throwing an inning last night?
2008-06-12 12:56:36
109.   LoneStar7
classic!, has everyone in the lineup ever gotten on base from the same pitcher to start the game without recording an out..
2008-06-12 12:57:05
110.   El Lay Dave
Too bad Kuo pitched yesterday.
2008-06-12 12:57:06
111.   underdog
Who is this guy and what has he done with the Kuroda who pitched against the Cubs?
2008-06-12 12:57:07
112.   Jon Weisman
100 - Welcome :)
2008-06-12 12:57:48
113.   Eric Stephen
I had to mute the broadcast at my desk. It was scoreless. I came back to find it was 4-0.

This one's on me, guys. My bad.

On the bright side, my Pierre shirt arrived today.

2008-06-12 12:58:11
114.   El Lay Dave
what's left, double, triple, dropped third strike, CI, reach on error.
2008-06-12 12:58:28
115.   Bob Hendley
107 - I haven't chimed in, but I never have anything good to say about the line-up. I used to be happy just to see Pee Wee in there, but nowadays I want more, much more for the $4 million man(ager).
2008-06-12 12:58:48
116.   Jon Weisman
Park has had three days rest. We'll see him today.
2008-06-12 12:59:36
117.   RELX
107. The problem with this line-up is that there is no Sweeney at first and Ardoin at catcher--now that would have been a classic!
2008-06-12 12:59:40
118.   ToyCannon
Evidently the night life in San Diego was a little to much for our boy to handle. The Gas Lamp district is a little to cozy to Petco.
2008-06-12 12:59:44
119.   Eric Stephen
That's a Librarian to the layperson.
2008-06-12 12:59:59
120.   overkill94
Who votes for Loney going in to pitch and LaRoche going to 1B?
2008-06-12 13:00:17
121.   thinkblue88

what a bummer of a start.

2008-06-12 13:00:20
122.   27indigo
96 98 I can't honestly say I feel anything on the "nice feelings" end of the spectrum for Torre, and today's lineup is a bit much to handle.
2008-06-12 13:00:22
123.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
117 Or maybe Kuroda would have been better off with "his guy", Ardoin.
2008-06-12 13:00:26
124.   underdog
For a second there I thought that inning was gonna be like one of those dreams where you never reach the destination or the conclusion.
2008-06-12 13:00:41
125.   Eric Stephen
Plus last night's game took 127 minutes, so the boys had some extra time to partake in the fish tacos, etc.
2008-06-12 13:00:51
126.   sporky
I'm guessing this qualifies as a blowout by Dodger standards. Does that increase Andy's playing chances today?
2008-06-12 13:01:59
127.   D4P
So much for "bearing down".
2008-06-12 13:02:06
128.   Eric Stephen
The offensive side of today's lineup didn't give up 5 runs in the first though.
2008-06-12 13:02:11
129.   bisonjones
104 - Yeah, my nickname in college (in the 80's) was "The Bison," so Kemp has gotta come through for me. Whoa! I just skipped over to gameday, not a happy start.
2008-06-12 13:02:21
130.   JoeyP
Dodgers deserve to lose if they play Berroa/Maza/Pitcher/Pierre against Jake Peavy.

He's good enough as is.
No need to make it easier on him.

But its already 5-0, so its probably over.
This team better get it together quick or the Padres/Giants make catch all the way up. Forget the Dbax, Dodgers are closer the bad part of the division than the top.

2008-06-12 13:02:31
131.   GMac In The 909
Now that I own a PS3, the Dodgers losing 5-rock in the first doesn't bother me as much.

(OK, it does; but at least I can lose myself in Liberty City or with Solid Snake)

2008-06-12 13:02:35
132.   El Lay Dave
127 I knew that was coming.
2008-06-12 13:03:14
133.   Bluebleeder87
I still have faith but we gotta get Peavy out of there, make him throw pitches!
2008-06-12 13:03:22
134.   fanerman
131 Gah you have MGS4 already!?
2008-06-12 13:03:45
135.   underdog
I believe 107 was meant to gently hint that we've entered rule 8 territory with the line-up today, but I guess if it makes people feel better to vent.

122 That's fine if you're angry but to suggest one thing has any correlation to the other is beyond reason. I don't think Kuroda entered the game in a state of "I give up! I'm just gonna throw gopher balls." I'm also not convinced LaRoche being in there instead of Maza would've meant 5 more runs for the Dodgers or 5 less runs for the Padres in that inning. But I understand the overall pain you're feeling about the guys up the middle. Chin up!

2008-06-12 13:04:55
136.   GMac In The 909
134 I got it in one of those 80GB bundles. My roomie and I woke up at 6 a.m. and waited outside a GameStop. Too bad I have this thing called work in the way for the next five hours.
2008-06-12 13:06:13
137.   Bob Hendley
Vin is doing that story about needing to sit a few games after a HR (in reference to LaRoche, I guess). I though he read DT?
2008-06-12 13:06:27
138.   GobiasIndustries
Not to be a smart aleck but isn't that the point of this site? To comment on the Dodgers? I didn't know expressing one's opinion about the current state of the lineup was something to be called out on. Then again I could've totally misinterpreted the underlined meaning of your comment and if that's the case, I'm sorry.
2008-06-12 13:06:52
139.   underdog
Tomorrow we discover if my g/f really did want a Wii Fit as much as she hinted on, or if it was all a set-up to get mad at me about something. I'm still pretty confident it's the former.
2008-06-12 13:07:15
140.   El Lay Dave
127 Bearing down is what women in labor do to birth the baby and end the pain. The bottom of the first was nearly as painful.
2008-06-12 13:08:30
141.   sporky
139 Can you give a quick review when you get to use it?
2008-06-12 13:08:44
142.   fanerman
136 Nice. I have it pre-ordered but from amazon. I figured I could wait a couple days.
2008-06-12 13:08:49
143.   overkill94
Billy Wagner is straight-up useless
2008-06-12 13:08:50
144.   underdog
138 - No, it's fine, it's just made me grumpy because literally the last 100 comments in the previous thread and most of the comments in this thread have been complaining about today's line-up. If I'm the only one that finally slipped over from being frustrated about the line-up to more frustrated about line-up comments ;-), then point taken. As I said after, if it is making people feel better to vent about it then I won't stand in the way. But I just reached my breaking point with that one point. Carry on.
2008-06-12 13:08:54
145.   Bob Timmermann
I am unclear if Rule 8 applies to one person making the same point over and over again or to the group making the same point over and over again.

I don't believe we have enough evidence from past rulings by Jon to decide which is which.

2008-06-12 13:09:18
146.   El Lay Dave
On the plus side, Kuroda only threw 3.1 pitches per batter; the Padres are a bunch of hackers!
2008-06-12 13:09:21
147.   LogikReader
Please, PLEASE re-assign Ned Colletti, Frank. I'll be your best friend.
2008-06-12 13:09:31
148.   cargill06
it's getting worse billy wagner is about to blow his 2nd save in 16 hours.
2008-06-12 13:10:12
149.   underdog
Not that it would make a huge difference, but this ump seems to be a little squeez-y on Kuroda.
2008-06-12 13:10:13
150.   LogikReader


Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-06-12 13:10:22
151.   JoeyP
This rule 8 stuff has to go. Its baseball. Not many people are going to have one original comment, since its the same show every day.

There's no problem in discussing a problem everytime it shows up.

2008-06-12 13:10:49
152.   Bob Hendley
I think that having Martin catch today is to wean Kuroda off of Danny, in order to pave the way for the return of you know who.
2008-06-12 13:11:19
153.   JoeyP
This has to be Billy Wagner's worst stretch of his career, dating back to Sunday's HR by Tony Clark.
2008-06-12 13:11:36
154.   El Lay Dave
What a difference an inning makes.
2008-06-12 13:12:08
155.   Bob Timmermann
Someone is assuming that Dodger Thoughts is a democracy, or, even worse, operated like California state government.

You can stand outside Target and give Jon a petition with a million signatures and if he doesn't want to change Rule 8, he won't change Rule 8.

2008-06-12 13:13:11
156.   RELX
143. He really is, in every way. Living here in NYC, Wagner has been continually griping this season about how he is the only one in the clubhouse who talks to the press after losses, and how many of the players--people believe he was referring to the Latin players--refuse to take the heat and be accountable. And now Wagner has blown several games in a row for the team. Great guy, clutch performer!
2008-06-12 13:13:26
157.   27indigo
151 I don't think I'd feel the need to have endless discussions on lineup construction if Torre didn't repeatedly put out questionable lineups. How do you ignore something as bad as today's lineup?
2008-06-12 13:13:28
158.   fanerman
It's obvious Billy Wagner has been brainwashed by the Arizona front office.
2008-06-12 13:13:52
159.   El Lay Dave
The Padres took BP in the 1st and Peavy is getting a bullpen session.
2008-06-12 13:14:58
160.   overkill94
Ugh, a high chopper doesn't allow the Mets to turn two and Johan loses what should have been an easy win

Still only a tie game with runners on 1st and 3rd and two outs though

2008-06-12 13:15:28
161.   GobiasIndustries
The whole beating a dead horse argument does have merit. I for one don't want to read and hear the same thing over and over again. I think the problem occurs when somebody just logs on to the current thread and doesn't bother to read the comments that may be condensed up above or the comments from the previous thread, as I did when I made my initial "lineup" comment. I wish I had some grand idea for a solution but alas, I'm part of the problem!
2008-06-12 13:15:37
162.   GMac In The 909
142 I actually bought my PS2 off amazon. It was thrilling since only a few were released online, and I scored one of them.

Today's purchase still hasn't sunk it yet. It's like Christmas morning ... only instead of enjoying my gifts after unwrapping them, I went straight to work. Every minute feels like an hour.

2008-06-12 13:15:47
163.   MonkeyBlue
Billy Goat returns I guess.
2008-06-12 13:16:18
164.   regfairfield
157 Torre did one wrong thing with this lineup, that while it wasn't a good idea, could at least be justified. We've seen worse.
2008-06-12 13:17:39
165.   Bluebleeder87
Me & my co-worker just agreed to go to the Cleveland series, man I just hope we're still in this thing by then.

No excuses for Torre but I think next year he'll have a better grasp of what to expect from certain guys, like somebody else said his lineups & such make no sense

2008-06-12 13:17:45
166.   bhsportsguy
164 And in the end, it won't really matter.
2008-06-12 13:18:15
167.   overkill94
Wow, even after Wagner's three consecutive blown saves his ERA is only up to 2.33. He may not be totally useless overall, but he definitely has been lately. Maybe Beltran can bail him out again today.
2008-06-12 13:18:20
168.   underdog
161 Hah hah, fair enough. :-) How about we're all emailed little Cliff's Notes summaries of every comment thread, right to our cell phones?
2008-06-12 13:18:47
169.   Bob Hendley
152 - Oops, Sorry underdog. But it may seem that we are just discussing the line-up, but isn't the line-up just the starting off point for the comments being made. We are talking about the players availble and how they are being used. Then, if something exciting happens in the game for the Dodgers, we forget about it for a while. If they do badly, then we have something to ruminate about during the long nine innings and to think what we would do if we were king to turn things around.
2008-06-12 13:20:21
170.   El Lay Dave
160 Then they pitched to Reynolds instead of walking him to get to Upton. Got away with it though.
2008-06-12 13:22:07
171.   Xeifrank
Guo pitched yesterday, (so carry the one and add two) which means he will pitch mop up duty about 8 days from now.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:23:02
172.   underdog
169 Seriously, it's fine. I'll just be grumpy quietly to myself here. Carry on.


Maybe Billy Wagner is only lights out now against the Dodgers.

2008-06-12 13:23:10
173.   overkill94
Man, that is a tight zone this umpire has
2008-06-12 13:24:13
174.   Doctor
Do GMs ever get fired mid-season?
2008-06-12 13:24:32
175.   Bob Timmermann
Wayne Krivsky says hello.
2008-06-12 13:24:34
176.   underdog
Man, what is up with Kuroda today? I wonder why so different? Can't just be that Ardoin isn't catching him. Maybe the Padres saw something from game film, or he's just getting pitches up...
2008-06-12 13:24:35
177.   El Lay Dave
173 Weird. Normally umps have big strike zones on getaway days. ;)
2008-06-12 13:25:31
178.   Fallout
144 underdog
If I'm the only one that finally slipped over from being frustrated about the line-up to more frustrated about line-up comments...
I feel your pain. 73

151 JoeyP
This rule 8 stuff has to go.
Something went out the window with comment 94 .

2008-06-12 13:25:34
179.   El Lay Dave
173 And yet Peavy has allowed only one hit and no walks.
2008-06-12 13:25:40
180.   Gen3Blue
Kuroda was getting piched. But I just started watching and that doesn't seem to be Kuroda's only problem today.
2008-06-12 13:26:37
181.   GMac In The 909
174 Hitting coaches usually are the first to go.
2008-06-12 13:26:40
182.   overkill94
Wow, Augie Ojeda just saved the game for the D-Backs with a diving stop on a David Wright shot down the line
2008-06-12 13:27:12
183.   Xeifrank
Looks like the good Peavy may have showed up today. Hope the Dodgers perform better against Andres Galarraga tomorrow. :)
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:27:17
184.   El Lay Dave
9 baserunners and 7 outs for Kuroda after Spicoli's single.
2008-06-12 13:27:28
185.   Fallout
155 Bob Timmermann
Kinda like a mgr and his lineup.
2008-06-12 13:27:48
186.   underdog
Poor Hiro looks like he was about to be sick on the mound when Honeycutt paid him a visit. "No, {mmmph!} I'm fine... I can make it to the house..."
2008-06-12 13:27:50
187.   Xeifrank
182. and the Dodgers magic number stays at 101 for the time being. vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:27:52
188.   overkill94
179 If the Dodgers actually took some pitches they might find the same result
2008-06-12 13:28:19
189.   Gen3Blue
Why would Joe leave Kuroda in now. Because thats it-games over?
2008-06-12 13:29:47
190.   overkill94
189 Pretty much
2008-06-12 13:29:59
191.   sporky

Sorry, had to let that out.

2008-06-12 13:30:05
192.   NWdodger
Give Kuroda his personal catcher and be done with it. Kuroda threw 26 fastballs, one change and one slider in the first inning. The only problem with adding Aurdoin is Kuroda would likely be hitting clean up with that line up.
2008-06-12 13:30:15
193.   Xeifrank
WE: 5%. Bound to drop.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:31:08
194.   underdog
So Kuroda basically is sort of like Eric Stephen when he watches the Dodgers live, then?
2008-06-12 13:31:32
195.   D4P
So you're sayin' there's a chance..
2008-06-12 13:32:11
196.   Xeifrank
195. haha, yeah sure... 3% now. Not exactly the swedish bikini team though. :)
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:32:35
197.   El Lay Dave
191 I like the squee much better.
2008-06-12 13:33:11
198.   fanerman
196 Swedish bikini team?
2008-06-12 13:33:12
199.   bhsportsguy
And the miracle of Chan Ho Park continues.

Some nice defense of the left side of infield saves the D-Backs.

2008-06-12 13:33:20
200.   underdog
{snort} Swedish bikini team?! {wakes up from catnap at desk}
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-06-12 13:33:31
201.   GobiasIndustries
Instant DT updates to your phone? I'd be down with that. I've got a buddy who is part of the Verizon hierarchy (socal chapter). I'll put him to work. :)
2008-06-12 13:33:32
202.   Xeifrank
CHP to save the day.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:33:33
203.   overkill94
Another great defensive play buts the Mets-Dbacks games into extra innings again
2008-06-12 13:33:57
204.   fanerman
On the bright side, no way Kuo pitches in this game. That would probably lead to broken computers and monitors around here.
2008-06-12 13:34:02
205.   Xeifrank
198. A rare movie reference on my part.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:34:04
206.   LoneStar7
this is so frustrating, bases loaded for the dodgers kuroda walks one in, flip to the other game day and bases loaded for mets, easley grounds out!!
2008-06-12 13:34:50
207.   Jon Weisman
Rule 8 can apply to both a single person or a group conversation, to varying degrees.

I don't think I have ever stopped people from bringing up a topic that's been discussed on a previous day.

But there is nothing to be gained from a person or people saying the same thing over and over again in the same conversation.

I happen to think I've been very lassez faire in applying the rule. Think about it. Rule 8 is violated much more often than I make an issue of it.

I don't really mind that much if someone wants to add their voice to the chorus on a subject. But I would say that if you're the 100th person to do it, you should ask yourself if the conversation is better for your contribution.

2008-06-12 13:35:15
208.   blue22
192 - I reject any strategy that removes our best player from the lineup. Maybe Kuroda should learn how to pitch to Russ. No one else seems to have a problem with him.
2008-06-12 13:35:20
209.   D4P
I'm surprised managers let pitchers swing in that situation. The chances of something good happening are much less than the chances of something bad.
2008-06-12 13:35:34
210.   LoneStar7
You don't mess with the chan ho
2008-06-12 13:36:15
211.   bhsportsguy
209 Peavy has won games where he drove in the winning run.
2008-06-12 13:36:46
212.   Gen3Blue
Thank you Mr Usher!
2008-06-12 13:36:49
213.   Andrew Shimmin
Just logged on, so I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet, but I'd like to explore, at length, how much I dislike this lineup. Hope that hasn't been covered, yet. . .
2008-06-12 13:37:02
214.   fanerman
205 What movie?
2008-06-12 13:37:56
215.   Bob Timmermann
I've violated Rule 8, so it can be applied to a single person.

I've opted to come up with original thoughts.

Or pointless thoughts.

Take your pick.

2008-06-12 13:38:03
216.   El Lay Dave
Kuroda's ERA now over 4, Park's nearly under 2.
2008-06-12 13:38:18
217.   underdog
Is it just me or was that high strike not called for Kuroda? Again, not that it would've saved him today, but...
2008-06-12 13:38:25
218.   Xeifrank
214. I guess that can be today's movie trivia question. It was a comedy movie.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:38:37
219.   sporky
I apologize for posting the lineup in the first place!
2008-06-12 13:38:39
220.   Andrew Shimmin
214- Are you asking because you really don't know, or to prove that you're not the sort of person who would get an allusion to Dumb and Dumber?
2008-06-12 13:38:58
221.   D4P
Peavy has won games where he drove in the winning run

I didn't say the chances of something good happening are zero, just that they're less than the chances of something bad happening.

If you stand there and don't swing, the worst thing that will happen is a strikeout, which means your leadoff hitter bats with the bases loaded.

If you swing and put the ball in play, the most likely result is probably a double play.

2008-06-12 13:39:36
222.   Johnson
Interestingly, the Yahoo boxscore has CHP as having thrown one pitch, and having induced two ground balls.
2008-06-12 13:40:17
223.   bhsportsguy
And the Mets give up the lead.

I am not sure you could really blame Willie for this but he will get blamed.

2008-06-12 13:40:36
224.   underdog
213 - Tee hee. {whap!}

And thanks, Jon, for 207.

Well, at least Pee Wee and Ethier made him work, slightly.

2008-06-12 13:40:54
225.   fanerman
220 Today I tell you, with shame on my face, I've yet to see Dumb and Dumber in its entirety.
2008-06-12 13:40:56
226.   delias man
How is Heilman still in the majors? I could see it if he was a lefty, but he is not.
2008-06-12 13:41:32
227.   Bob Timmermann
In limited at bats, Jake Peavy was batting .316 this season.

So he's not totally useless at the plate. Besides, the Padres were (and still are) ahead.

2008-06-12 13:41:34
228.   LoneStar7
I feel like arizona (most likely) winning now bumps up our chance of winning percentage...I dunno it feels like whenever we win they win, when we lose, they lose
2008-06-12 13:41:40
229.   overkill94
220 Eh, he's mixing his allusions though. There was no percentage applied to the Swedish bikini team, just Lloyd's chances with Mary (1 in a million).
2008-06-12 13:41:54
230.   Xeifrank
225. Well, that quote is from the very end of the movie. Probably it's best scene. Well, that and when they trade in their van for the small motor bike.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:43:04
231.   Xeifrank
229. Yeah, that's true. It's been a while since I've seen it. All the jokes have run together by now. :) vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:43:59
232.   overkill94
231 I try to stay sharp by watching all the classics at least once a year :)
2008-06-12 13:44:04
233.   Xeifrank
WE still at 3%. We will need a few runs to bump it up, otherwise we will have a pretty boring graph from today's game. Is the fix on for tonight's NBA game?
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 13:44:06
234.   El Lay Dave
49 Peavy pitches. At that rate, he goes 7 in his final rehab start.
2008-06-12 13:44:37
235.   blue22
226 - Looks like he's been pretty unlucky this year, maybe walking a few too many. And he's been excellent in the last couple of years.
2008-06-12 13:44:45
236.   sporky
My coworker, a.k.a. Joanna Morgan, has pointed out that if it weren't for our great leadoff hitter, this game would be interesting.
2008-06-12 13:45:04
237.   fanerman
I don't like day games because after the game is over, there's nothing really to talk about.
2008-06-12 13:45:52
238.   GMac In The 909
229 We landed on the moon!
2008-06-12 13:46:28
239.   Gen3Blue
213 The line-up looks as bad as the result.
I mean playing Maza and Berroa at the same time should only be done in emergencies, just for one thing.
2008-06-12 13:46:41
240.   LogikReader
I dunno about the Lakers either. If I remember, they played on Thursday and the Dodgers Lost. Then they played on Sunday and the Dodgers Lost. They played on Tuesday and the Dodgers won.

The Lakers and Dodgers won and lost together each time!

2008-06-12 13:46:46
241.   underdog
231 Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber, you go and do something like this... and totally redeem yourself!

(It's a quote from the movie, people!)

Chan Ho continues to be a small miracle this season.

2008-06-12 13:47:00
242.   overkill94
Game over in Queens, the Mets choked it
2008-06-12 13:47:17
243.   LoneStar7
237 except when the lakers are on
2008-06-12 13:47:26
244.   KG16
221 - regardless of who is at the plate, the odds are that something bad is going to happen for the hitter's team. Granted, the odds are much greater if the pitcher is hitting, but even the best hitters make an out more often than they get on base (with the exception of Bonds in his second prime, but I'd guess his OBP would drop when adjusted for IBBs)
2008-06-12 13:47:56
245.   underdog
237 Sometimes that's true during the game, too, when it's like today's.
2008-06-12 13:48:10
246.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
242 Almost makes you appreciate the simple joys of knowing the game is out of reach from the first inning, rather than having your guts ripped out in the 9th every day.
2008-06-12 13:48:37
247.   fanerman
243 Yeah, true.
2008-06-12 13:49:07
248.   LoneStar7
loney's hit streak would be alive for that darned pinch hit last night...curses
2008-06-12 13:49:10
249.   underdog
236 Loney says In your face, Sporky's coworker!
2008-06-12 13:49:43
250.   GMac In The 909
241 Joe Torre gets 60 miles to the gallon on Luis Maza.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-06-12 13:49:56
251.   Daniel Zappala
85 Thank you, bh. Ebay bidding underway.
2008-06-12 13:50:04
252.   blue22
236 - Now you can tell her to cram it.
2008-06-12 13:50:17
253.   GBruin
Are these rules written down any where? I have been a visitor for a while but havent seen them.
2008-06-12 13:50:26
254.   bhsportsguy
236 Hey Sporky, I have a few friends who are in Public Health, if you would like to ask them some questions (one is now an Exec Director for a non-profit, the other is in the grad program at UCLA).

You can email me at

2008-06-12 13:50:56
255.   bhsportsguy
253 Right sidebar - scroll down.
2008-06-12 13:51:04
256.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
253 allllll the way at the bottom of the right sidebar.
2008-06-12 13:51:04
257.   fanerman
253 They're at the bottom of the sidebar.
2008-06-12 13:51:07
258.   Bob Timmermann
The rules are indeed written and they are on the sidebar on the right toward the bottom.

"Thank you for not..."

2008-06-12 13:51:14
259.   LoneStar7
the one scary fact is that lakers are 0-2 with a dodger loss, and 1-0 with a dodger win...lets hope the fix really in on tonight, and that dick bavetta really does want home teams to win : )
2008-06-12 13:51:16
260.   fanerman
I am slow.
2008-06-12 13:51:38
261.   Bob Timmermann
You have to appreciate a Rule 8 violation pointing out the existence of Rule 8.
2008-06-12 13:51:46
262.   Eric Stephen
Heilman's certainly having a bad year, but his ERA+ the last 3 years were 140, 120, and 130.
2008-06-12 13:51:59
263.   D4P
regardless of who is at the plate, the odds are that something bad is going to happen for the hitter's team. Granted, the odds are much greater if the pitcher is hitting, but even the best hitters make an out more often than they get on base

I understand that. But the chances of something good happening if a pitcher swings aren't really so much higher (if at all) that the chances that he'll walk or get HBP is he doesn't swing.

If there's 2 outs, then maybe I let the pitcher swing. But if there are less than 2 outs, I'd much rather make sure that my leadoff hitter gets to hit with the bases loaded than take the chance of having my pitcher end the inning with a GIDP.

2008-06-12 13:53:12
264.   underdog
261 That really did make me laugh out loud.

Let's go matzoh!

2008-06-12 13:54:05
265.   Daniel Zappala
At least my comment was a meta-lineup comment.
2008-06-12 13:54:14
266.   Eric Stephen
In fairness to the Lakers' impending doom, the previous Dodger losses on Laker gamedays finished AFTER the Laker game. So they have that going for them...
2008-06-12 13:54:17
267.   delias man
262 I guess my anger should be directed elsewhere.
2008-06-12 13:54:25
268.   TopCat
258 "Big Iron" Bob beaten to the draw!!
2008-06-12 13:54:25
269.   Eric Stephen
..which is nice.
2008-06-12 13:54:48
270.   LoneStar7
good, I was hoping that lead off double wouldn't get any sort of rally started, now I'll be able to take my lunch break in peace....
2008-06-12 13:54:49
271.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
You know, I know, we all know - today's lineup is weak. But watching an ace like Peavy toy with us, you kind of have to wonder whether any lineup decisions were really going to matter at all. That guy is something else.
2008-06-12 13:54:53
272.   sporky
254 You've got mail!
2008-06-12 13:55:07
273.   Daniel Zappala
261 I'm just reveling in the fact that three people beat you to the punch.
2008-06-12 13:55:21
274.   fanerman
We're not actually worried that this probable Dodgers loss will spell certain doom for the Lakers, are we?
2008-06-12 13:55:38
275.   bhsportsguy
261 Does Rule 8 apply to answering questions?

I think not.

2008-06-12 13:55:49
276.   silverwidow
Maza + Berroa is perverse.

I'd rather see Martin/LaRoche in the middle infield.

2008-06-12 13:55:59
277.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
274 (go Celtics!)
2008-06-12 13:56:56
278.   Kevin Lewis
Hey Jon,

Are you considering the field/park area near the Rose Bowl for the softball picnic? It would be a great spot, and it would be a quick drive for me :)

2008-06-12 13:56:59
279.   underdog
2008-06-12 13:57:12
280.   GBruin
258- Thanks
2008-06-12 13:57:36
281.   blue22
274 - The evidence is overwhelming. If you choose to overlook it, that's on you ;-)
2008-06-12 13:57:54
282.   underdog
I have an idea! Have Kuroda only make every other start. Scratch him from each alternate game which appear to be losses and replace him with Park or Kuo.
2008-06-12 13:58:04
283.   27indigo
I'd rather see Martin/LaRoche in the middle infield.

Now that would be interesting. Oh well. I can take solace in having an Andy LaRoche bobblehead and scores of Hideo Nomo baseball cards making their way to me.

2008-06-12 13:58:31
284.   underdog
Wesley Snipes Grandfather hasn't actually looked that bad at short. I'm surprised.
2008-06-12 13:58:50
285.   Eric Stephen
Rick Monday just said Angel Berroa is a defensive upgrade over Chin-Lung Hu (and Maza) at SS.
2008-06-12 13:58:50
286.   Kevin Lewis

I never know what is upsetting you without a link

2008-06-12 13:59:21
287.   LoneStar7
281 besides the fact that we have to worry about Dodger Karma...We must now worry that the NBA may in fact induce a celtic win, to disprove any home call bias, or rigged series for the lakers...: )
2008-06-12 13:59:41
288.   CodyS
271 Maybe so, but if you're Peavey and you see this lineup, I think you just laugh. We shouldn't be making the other pitcher laugh.
2008-06-12 13:59:59
289.   Eric Stephen
I'm now rooting for Mike Scioscia's Tragic Illness's Tragic Illness!

No offense. :)

2008-06-12 14:00:16
290.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
Kuo warming up. On a back to back day? And, of course, in a hopelessly lost game.
2008-06-12 14:00:17
291.   GobiasIndustries
2008-06-12 14:00:57
292.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
289 Fair enough. Actually, I could care less about the NBA either way, haven't watched a game all year. But I did live in Boston for 7 years, so I've got to pull that way.
2008-06-12 14:01:24
293.   Gen3Blue
Is it good or bad that Park gets mop up duty instead of Kuo? I'd say good if I was sure Joe knows Kuo exists.
2008-06-12 14:01:35
294.   GBruin
Double switch coming up??? Will LaRoche play second today?
2008-06-12 14:01:42
295.   JJ42
272 Hey Sporky, I work in Public Health and have an MPH. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

2008-06-12 14:01:45
296.   GobiasIndustries
oops, I meant 284

That really did make me laugh out loud. He is one funny looking guy but I couldn't place it. Now the picture is clear. Thank you.

2008-06-12 14:02:43
297.   sporky
Now I have to go analyze apoptotic and necrotic cell populations of tumorigenic prostate epithelial cells. By the time I get back, Andy better be in.
2008-06-12 14:02:49
298.   LoneStar7
285 while thats obviously not true, I think Berroa has done alright at least so far
2008-06-12 14:03:38
299.   fanerman
290 Oy. I was hoping that by pitching yesterday, he'd certainly not pitch today.
2008-06-12 14:03:57
300.   sporky
295 I shall. Thanks!
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-06-12 14:04:05
301.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
298 He hasn't made any egregious mistakes on defense, but then again, I can't really recall any opportunities he's had that weren't pretty standard plays.
2008-06-12 14:04:35
302.   Daniel Zappala
293 Park is the long reliever, Kuo is the guy who gets used accidentally when Torre calls the wrong number in the bullpen.
2008-06-12 14:05:10
303.   LoneStar7
man did laroche hit that pretty deep?
2008-06-12 14:05:21
304.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
I like how Vin's "this day in Dodger history" today was Hee-Seop hitting 3 bombs vs. Minnesota in 2005.

"He then hit another in Kansas City the next day, and was never heard from again."

So.. he was kidnapped? Disappeared?

2008-06-12 14:05:43
305.   D4P
LaRoche got to play today...!
2008-06-12 14:05:58
306.   Jon Weisman
278 - The picnic will be on the Westside. I think someone suggested a park that sounded good. We need to pin that down and reserve a spot.
2008-06-12 14:06:21
307.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
Young with another hit. Would kill to see him get a real shot.
2008-06-12 14:07:20
308.   gpellamjr
Andrew Shimmin, if you get this, would you please email me ( There is something that I desperately need to get off my chest and I've forgotten your email address.
2008-06-12 14:08:02
309.   D4P
I'm intrigued.
2008-06-12 14:08:40
310.   underdog
307 If you mean kill Pierre, then that plan works.
2008-06-12 14:08:57
311.   Fallout
Why all the talk about rule #8? My favorite is rule #7. With a comment like: "I'd rather see Martin/LaRoche in the middle infield.", who can tell?
2008-06-12 14:09:11
312.   Marty
Rick Monday never fails.
2008-06-12 14:11:05
313.   Xeifrank
WE is officially down to 1% now. :(
And yes... that means we have a chance. :)
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:11:42
314.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
Not only is this Kuo's first time on back to back days this year... he'd never even gone on less than TWO days rest.
2008-06-12 14:12:40
315.   bhsportsguy
314 Kevin Pearson posted on the Riverside Press Blog that Torre was not against using Kuo on back to back days, maybe this is a test.
2008-06-12 14:13:29
316.   Xeifrank
This is ridiculous that Guo's pitching usage pattern is equivalent to that of Jose Canseco. Or maybe he is in the game for his bat? vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:13:37
317.   Eric Stephen
My favorite is Rule 13.
2008-06-12 14:14:12
318.   Ken Noe
284 [Don LaFontaine voice] Actor Wesley Snipes had a perfect plan. After he ditched the cops, he drove to Omaha, aged himself using movie makeup, and assumed the identity of an obscure shortstop in the KC Royals organization--the last place anyone would look for him. But then fate took a turn and he found himself starting for the Los Angeles Dodgers! Don't miss U. S. Marshals 2, starring Wesley Snipes in his greatest role to date.
2008-06-12 14:14:27
319.   Xeifrank
317. Thou shall not double post?
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:14:32
320.   Xeifrank
317. Thou shall not double post?
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:14:34
321.   Bob Hendley
315 - Back-to-back mop up. Things are looking up. ;-)
2008-06-12 14:15:45
322.   fanerman
Maybe Joe is seeing how well Kuo can handle pitching back-to-back by pitching him in super low leverage situations. If he does okay, perhaps it will lead to more pitching opportunities in general.

(trying to be optimistic)

2008-06-12 14:16:08
323.   Eric Stephen
I had no idea the lesser Padre Gonzalez brother (Edgar) is OLDER than Adrian.
2008-06-12 14:17:03
324.   Jon Weisman
322 - I am grasping at the same straw.
2008-06-12 14:18:12
325.   D4P
Maybe we should be happy he got in the game at all, but Torre's use of LaRoche today feels unsatisfactory.
2008-06-12 14:19:07
326.   Bob Hendley
322 - Pehaps he could have started this little experiment the other night, instead of brining in Proctor. Afterall, if the idea is to see if he can can back to back, you might want the high leverage situation to be first, followed by the lower leverage situation (which would be the one that you would be worried about, no?).
2008-06-12 14:20:26
327.   Eric Stephen
319 ,320
That was beautiful.
2008-06-12 14:20:31
328.   underdog
The most unsatisfactory thing about today is still Kuroda's unexpected awfulness. Everything after that is just, er, gravy? Coagulated gravy that's been on the stovetop too long.
2008-06-12 14:20:45
329.   GMac In The 909
I did a little dot-connecting on what the Dodgers' (presumed) loss means to the Lakers tonight, so here it goes:

The Lakers are currently 8-0 at home in the playoffs. Here are the Dodgers' results during those games:

April 20 - Dodgers L, 6-1 vs. Atlanta
April 23 - Dodgers W, 8-3 vs. Arizona
May 4 - Dodgers L, 7-2 vs. Colorado
May 7 - Dodgers L, 12-1 vs. Mets
May 14 - Dodgers W, 6-4 at Milwaukee
May 21 - Dodgers W, 5-2 vs. Cincinnati
May 23 - Dodgers L, 8-4 at Mets
Tuesday - Dodgers W, 7-2 at San Diego

Dodgers record on days the Lakers play home playoff games this season: 4-4. (The Dodgers are 1-4 on days the Lakers lose road playoff games this year).

Therefore, it's obvious the Lakers will win. It's science.

2008-06-12 14:22:00
330.   Eric Stephen
The Dodgers haven't lost at home since my birthday. I expect that to continue into next season.
2008-06-12 14:24:15
331.   GMac In The 909
330 The Dodgers have never lost at home or away on my birthday, and I have a good feeling they never will. =)
2008-06-12 14:24:39
332.   Xeifrank
329. I am getting a "L"oss out of that. You have a LWLLWW-LW, so we should see another LLWW. Which gives us a "L". Clear as mud?
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:24:45
333.   Tom Meagher
I remember there was a discussion on Penny's pitches in a recent DT thread, and Josh Kalk has just released the 2008 version of his pitch f/x tool ( So I checked Penny's numbers. The average NL pitcher this season has 3.79 pitches per batter faced, with 18.7% of pitches batted, 43.4% of pitches strikes (non-batted), and 37.9% of pitches balls. Penny overall has had 1453 pitches, 1293 of which were tracked. Penny's pitches have been 19.1% batted, 43.3% strikes, and 37.6% balls.

On batted balls, the league has a .347 wOBA against with .207 singles per batted ball and a .187 ISO; Penny's batted balls have had a .351 wOBA, .255 singles/batted ball, and a .137 ISO.

Of the charted pitches, Penny has 67% fastballs, 17% curves, and 16% change-ups.
FB: 37.6% balls, 19.1% batted, .376 battedballwOBA, .259 1b/batted, .162 ISO
CV: 40.6% balls, 16.6% batted, .344 battedballwOBA, .306 1b/batted, .056 ISO
CH: 37.5% balls, 22.6% batted, .267 battedballwOBA, .191 1b/batted, .106 ISO

So the fastball has been hit hard when put into play and the changeup has been pretty effective in generating outs. The Enders hypothesis seems to hold - hitters are either sitting on the fastball or getting very lucky on it (actually, some combination thereof).

Here are the uncharted pitches (11% of his total):
33.8% balls, 18.1% batted, .358 battedballwOBA, .276 1b/batted, .138 ISO

While the fastball has been hit hard, Penny has still been only one run below average on batted balls. What is really concerning is that he's thrown basically a league average split of balls/strikes/batted balls, but has a szERA (strike zone ERA, an ERA estimator using only K, BB, and BFP, although Tango seems to have renamed it kwERA (for K and Walks)) of 4.97 against the league's 4.39. Maybe he just hasn't had the right sequencing, or maybe he just doesn't have the right stuff to put hitters away.

2008-06-12 14:24:49
334.   nme
So I'm new to this forum, but I've followed this blog for a while and followed the comments. Wish that I came in here on a better game-day, but c'est la vie. Anyway, hello all. And I know this is several days past due, but Jon, I loved the Two Words piece. Very well written and I completely agree.
2008-06-12 14:25:15
335.   Xeifrank
332. Or perhaps that means the Dodgers get the L?? vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:25:55
336.   Daniel Zappala
330 If the Lakers win the next two, then I will expect a win in Game 6 or 7 as well.
2008-06-12 14:26:40
337.   fanerman
334 Welcome!
2008-06-12 14:27:40
338.   Daniel Zappala
Berroa is pulling a Reggie Willits.
2008-06-12 14:28:12
339.   underdog
Pretty good at bat from Snipes, Sr.
2008-06-12 14:28:16
340.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
Nertz to this, I'm going to play ball in Central Park.
2008-06-12 14:28:29
341.   Xeifrank
333. It would be interesting to see those numbers compared to what Penny did last year. I know the data is not available. I would like to compare him to last year's Penny, not this years league average to see where the difference lies.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:28:53
342.   GMac In The 909
335 Yes, it would mean the Dodgers are in for another L on Sunday.

336 If the Lakers win the next two, KG might curl up into the fetal position on the court.

2008-06-12 14:29:24
343.   Daniel Zappala
Except he struck out instead of walking.
2008-06-12 14:29:28
344.   underdog
...except for how it ended.
2008-06-12 14:30:12
345.   Bob Hendley
Angel smiled! Finally.
2008-06-12 14:31:00
346.   Eric Stephen
I can't listen to the broadcast anymore. Steiner and Monday are commenting on what a great season Pierre is having.

I feel like I'm the only sane person in a crazy world. I'm mentally checking out for 3½ hours until Game 4 starts.

2008-06-12 14:31:06
347.   LoneStar7
well at least during my lunch break I got to see one of Loney's hits : )
2008-06-12 14:31:14
348.   Xeifrank
My first conspiracy theory had the NBA finals... BLLBLBX, after game two I quickly modified it to... BBLLLBX
X = no bias, players get to decide it fairly, but the refs may make sure it's close half way through the 4th qtr.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:32:31
349.   gibsonhobbs88
So do the Dodgers get baseball amnesia when Peavy faces them-all abilities and baseball knowledge go missing for that day or is there something more sinister afoot? Does Peavy have a grandmother back in Alabama that knows voodoo but she won't do it for every team to arouse suspicion but she does her black magic for her grandson against the one team the Padres want to beat more than anyone-The Dodgers. Even on days Peavy doesn't pitch his best against the Blue, the Dodgers pitchers pitch bad also, or the defense goes south or the bullpen blows up (Broxton blows 4-1 lead)in SD, we can not pin a loss on Peavy. It is almost mystical right now. If the NBA can have suspicions of foul play, then I'm calling for an investigation into some black magic on the part of Peavy and the Padres! LOL!
2008-06-12 14:32:59
350.   LogikReader

That is a BIG "if." The Lakers haven't done anything to prove that they'll extend the series to a 6th game. Gasol and Odom in particular have played just terribly three games in a row.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-06-12 14:33:40
351.   GMac In The 909
348 Sounds like the Lakers v. Kings series of '02 but in reverse.
2008-06-12 14:34:16
352.   Xeifrank
There should be a new pitching stat for pitchers like Guo and CHP. They should get recognized for filling the role of innings eater of a game out of reach. A player who finishes such game gets a mop, the sister stat of a save. Whoever ends up leading the league in mops is awarded the Silver Bucket Award. vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:35:17
353.   D4P
Gasol and Odom in particular have played just terribly three games in a row

Gasol is soft.

Odom, on the other hand, gets among the worst treatment from the refs of any player in the league, for no apparent reason. Almost every close call he's involved in goes against him.

2008-06-12 14:35:26
354.   Bob Hendley
352 - That's worth posting twice.
2008-06-12 14:37:01
355.   Xeifrank
The Padres must be chuckling to themselves about how lucky they were that Kuroda started instead of Guo!
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:37:29
356.   Neal Pollack
If they score here, charge that run to Pierre. I also feel like people on this site are the only ones paying attention.
2008-06-12 14:37:32
357.   D4P
Silver Bucket Award

Don't you mean "Silver Bucget"...?

2008-06-12 14:37:39
358.   LogikReader
Gasol is soft.

Makes you wonder how Andrew Bynum would affect the team if he ever makes a comeback.

Yep, another big IF.

2008-06-12 14:40:20
359.   underdog
355 We all love Kuo but Kuroda also was an ace against the best hitting team in the NL last time out. I don't think the Padres went into this matchup licking their chops.
2008-06-12 14:41:22
360.   Daniel Zappala
350 Granted. A huge IF. But Gasol and Odom played so well during the regular season and prior playoff games that I'm still optimistic.
2008-06-12 14:42:53
361.   27indigo
333 That was a great read. I wonder if the Dodgers provide this sort of data to Honeycutt, the pitchers, and the catchers.
2008-06-12 14:44:27
362.   Xeifrank
WE is officially now 0%. Someone call the FCC to get the game pulled from the airwaves. Perhaps it can just go into the books as is. vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:44:53
363.   GMac In The 909
358 To quote underdog, "Sigh..."
2008-06-12 14:46:39
364.   schoffle

Gasol may be "soft" but that has not stopped him from playing outstanding defence against two of the best big men in the NBA. Doesn't help that the refs refuse to call KG for any fouls while he is guarding Gasol.

2008-06-12 14:48:17
365.   LoneStar7
walk off hit by pitch for the cubs in chicago
2008-06-12 14:49:30
366.   underdog
I've decided it's my fault this game turned out the way it has -- I should've been following it on Gameday the whole way instead of watching it on MLBTV. I saw bad things on MLBTV, and nothing bad happened when I just followed on Gameday. Thus... it's my fault. Thank you.

358 - Bynum will be back next season, and good, and the Lakers will have at least as good a shot at getting to the finals next season as this.

2008-06-12 14:49:39
367.   LoneStar7
anyone else's game day broken, I can open all games except the dodgers..
2008-06-12 14:50:04
368.   D4P
Doesn't help that the refs refuse to call KG for any fouls while he is guarding Gasol

That definitely doesn't help.

2008-06-12 14:50:17
369.   underdog
And Sweeney's always there, in the lower right hand corner, just waiting to suck.
2008-06-12 14:51:13
370.   Xeifrank
Gasol is what he is. He's tall and very versatile. He has nice touch on his shot, can use both hands to shoot with near the basket. He passes well, moves without the ball, can even handle the ball good for a big man. He isn't all that powerful, but there aren't too many powerful 7 footers who can do the other things he can. It's not as if he's a wuss. If he was a power player AND had the skills that he currently has, his name would be Garnett or Hakeem.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 14:51:33
371.   LoneStar7
368 best moment of game 3: KG finally getting called for a moving screen....
2008-06-12 14:51:37
372.   Kevin Lewis

Oh no, I fear the 10

2008-06-12 14:52:54
373.   D4P
I don't have any complaints about Gasol or Odom. I'd like the Lakers to (finally) get their hands on the kind of thuggish, bruising power forward that always gives them problems.
2008-06-12 14:53:21
374.   Daniel Zappala
371 After two other uncalled moving screens and an uncalled shoving foul on the same play.
2008-06-12 14:53:22
375.   blue22
370 - Even more reason to need Bynum back next year. Bynum as the tough guy down low, with Gasol the distributor up top is a terrific combo. And Odom is a tough matchup for any small forward in the league.

I'm actually very surprised the Lakers made it this far without Bynum. I didn't think Odom and Gasol would be able to defend Boozer and Duncan in the post.

2008-06-12 14:55:00
376.   LoneStar7
darn, with bases loaded in colorado, and down 10-7...spilborghs strikes out
2008-06-12 14:55:20
377.   blue22
2008-06-12 14:59:14
378.   CajunDodger
I don't know much about the basketbell, but what is the general consensus on Fisher? Is he considered a good point guard?

I know that the triangle does not value points on fast breaks much, but Fisher is getting awfully slow and is getting older. Doesn't a Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Bryant, Fisher starting five make the Lakers a bit lead-footed?

2008-06-12 14:59:50
379.   Tom Meagher
341 2007 data is available at the same link. Penny's fastball worked WAY better last season. I had actually already run the 2007 numbers for Penny a few months back.

Total: 35.4% balls, 20.2% batted, .315 battedballwOBA, .218 1b/batted, .117 ISO

Charted pitches: 71.9% fastball, 12.0% curve, 16.1% changeup. 36.9% of pitches were uncharted.

FB: 34.3%, 19.4%, .273, .207, .085
CV: 35.5%, 18.4%, .385, .267, .133
CH: 39.3%, 23.5%, .425, .273, .182
Charted (tot): 35.3%, 19.9%, .314, .227, .108
Uncharted: 35.8%, 20.7%, .315, .203, .130

That's a .102 difference in wOBA on batted fastballs (that were charted)! And the (charted) curves and changes that were put into play were hit harder than his (charted) fastballs have been this season. The difference in the results of his batted pitches has been pretty night and day.

His szERA was 4.54, and part of the dropoff in that can (in addition to variance etc.) be explained by the 2% increase in balls per pitch. And in case anyone was wondering whether his lack of K this season stems from an inordinate number of foul balls, he's actually had a smaller percentage of foul balls in 2008 overall, including a smaller percentage of fastballs.

2008-06-12 15:02:27
380.   Xeifrank
379. Thanks. vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:02:54
381.   schoffle
371 LoneStar7

I think the bigger problem is the lack of calls against KG on the defensive end, besides he took a full step towards half court on that screen, the refs had no choice. I would have been happier to see that call him for holding or elbowing on any of the previous screens he set in that game.

Too bad about Kuo letting this game get out of hand today, that will probably cause Torre to lose some confidence in him.

2008-06-12 15:04:02
382.   underdog
Jeez, I wonder what's wrong with Proctor this season. He's had good stuff, he was good last season, he's just baaaad this year.
2008-06-12 15:04:40
383.   LoneStar7
378 I wouldn't say so, fisher is older and losing his speed may affect his Defense a bit, but he's still a good defender, strong bodied, and he fits the triangle perfectly.

In the triangle, a point guard needs to be able to handle the ball, but most importantly hit open jump shots...its why smush was such a disaster in LA

2008-06-12 15:05:47
384.   El Lay Dave
Does this mean EDSP now ranks below Cory Wade on the Torre bullpen chart?
2008-06-12 15:06:28
385.   LoneStar7
381 oh well i agree, he's playing flat out dirty on both ends...I think Pau this series has almost taken a Shaq like level of uncalled hacks under the hoop

Hes being pulled, tugged, held, grabbed, bumped every time down the court.

2008-06-12 15:06:35
386.   underdog
2008-06-12 15:07:39
387.   blue22
378 - Fisher is still a good PG for the triangle, since he's know the offense backwards and forwards and is a pretty good spot-up shooter. I'd expect to see Farmar stealing more playing time next season, with Fisher saving himself for the playoffs (as happens a lot on Phil Jackson teams).

But Gasol and Odom are very athletic matchups for their position. Odom may not be as quick as a Shawn Marion, but his length and skills make up for that. And Gasol is as quick and skilled as just about any other big man out there.

2008-06-12 15:07:45
388.   LoneStar7
382 Does proctor have any trade value somewhere where relievers are needed, maybe packaged with someone
2008-06-12 15:14:27
389.   nme
Fish is getting older, but he's still a solid PG. What's more is that he does provide some veteran leadership on a young team. While Kobe can be a bit bombastic at times, Fish handles this game with poise. And it doesn't hurt that Farmar looks like he'll be a good PG for us, so he's been instrumental in spelling Fish when those 31-yr old legs need a break.

Also, Kobe is one of the quickest (if not the quickest) guys in the game, so lead-footed may be a bit strong.

2008-06-12 15:15:07
390.   Xeifrank
381. Guo let this game get out of hand? I'm curious, how so? vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:16:15
391.   JoeyP
Dodgers low point at the start of the season was 9-13.

Then they won 10 of 11 to get to 19-14.

Now they're back to 31-35.

This is a thoroughly built mediocre boring team. Not too far below .500, not too far above, just a win some lose some ho hum season.

2008-06-12 15:20:39
392.   Tom Meagher
Here's another one: strikes per IP. I've found this to be a useful analytic tool, although I haven't fleshed it out too much. But the gist is that it's a measure of efficiency (though what efficiency means in this context is not all about what the pitcher does, since it depends on defense, etc.).

Over the course of his career, the correlation between single-season szERA and ERA is .617. The correlation between single-season strikes/IP and ERA is .547, and for strikes/IP and szERA it's .336.

From 2002 to 2005, Penny's strikes/IP sat between 10.01 and 10.32 each season. In 2006 it was 10.89, in 2007 it was 10.00, and in 2008 it's back to 10.89.


Is anyone else afraid that Torre lost confidence in Kuo after that outing? He gave up a run!

2008-06-12 15:23:50
393.   blue22
392 - His 5 strikeouts in 2 innings means he doesn't trust his teammates either.
2008-06-12 15:25:36
394.   schoffle

is that a serious question?

I really didn't think that anyone would miss the tongue in cheek nature of the comment, especially after the recent discussions/complains over Torre's use of Kuo.


2008-06-12 15:27:25
395.   Xeifrank
392. 2-IP, 5-Ks, 0-BBs, 0-HRs. It's just going to keep lowering his FIP and raising his WAR. vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:27:43
396.   schoffle

Perhaps he is just a fascist

2008-06-12 15:28:15
397.   D4P
You gotta think the refs in tonight's NBA game will make an effort to appear as unbiased as possible, and will probably err on the side of not favoring the home team.
2008-06-12 15:28:20
398.   Xeifrank
394. Well, he did give up a run... so I wasn't sure. :)
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:30:23
399.   blue22
397 - I don't think the refs will allow the Lakers to be down 3-1. Lakers win tonight and tie up the series.
2008-06-12 15:31:12
400.   LogikReader
By the way,

The Dodgers still haven't won a series since the 3 game sweep vs Cincinnati on May 21st

The Dodgers are not a good baseball team.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2008-06-12 15:33:10
401.   gibsonhobbs88
397- Especially if Javie is Officiating. He hasn't refereed a game yet in this series. He is notorious for going against the home crowd.

349 - All I'm saying is Kuroda against the power hitting Cubs - was outstanding and dominating. Against the (normally punchless)Padres with Peavy pitching against him- Batting practice fodder.
Like the ELO song goes "Strange Magic" ;-)
I have to laugh about it, it hurts too much the other way.

2008-06-12 15:33:26
402.   sporky
Go figure.

From Kevin Pearson (PE blog):

>>Reliever Hong-Chih Kuo has blossomed into one of the best long relievers in baseball and is sporting a 1.88 ERA, but finding places to use him has been tough. Prior to Wednesday's one inning of work, he had not pitched since June 1.

Manager Joe Torre said Kuo was still not always able to pitch on consecutive days but that he had no problems using him for one inning late in games, though finding the right spot to use him has been tough, especially since the starting rotation has been pitching deeper into games of late and the back end of the bullpen is essentially set.

"Right now, I have enough confidence in his ability to throw strikes, which was the question mark earlier in the season," Torre said. "I wouldn't hesitate to use him anywhere. I wouldn't hesitate in terms of trusting Kuo at all."<<

2008-06-12 15:36:18
403.   blue22
399 - Unless the Celtics, you know, win anyway. I bet the free throws favor LA again though.
2008-06-12 15:39:05
404.   D4P
The Lakers were chivalrous enough last game to reject any possible favoritism from the refs by intentionally missing a lot of free throws.
2008-06-12 15:41:27
405.   Xeifrank
403. Yeah, I know what you mean. I thought the refs were doing all they could in Game 3, without making it totally obvious (like in Game 2) to orchestrate a Laker win... and they still almost/should've lost.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:41:51
406.   blue22
404 - I'm gonna go on a limb and say Kobe doesn't miss 7 free throws again.

Then again, betcha Paul Pierce doesn't go 2-for-14 from the field again.

2008-06-12 15:42:05
407.   LogikReader
D4P, I'd think that if the Refs were road-team biased, that would do less to help their cause. I don't think anybody forgot about the horribly officiated Game 2.

Worst officiated basketball games of all time

1. Game 6, 2002 Western Conf Finals
2. Game 2, this year's finals
3. 1972 Olympics

2008-06-12 15:42:29
408.   LogikReader

Forgot to add the :-)

2008-06-12 15:43:45
409.   Eric Enders
402 The thing is, his quote doesn't conform with reality. There have been numerous games where there was an obvious Kuo situation, and he didn't get used. And Torre's use of Kuo today and yesterday effectively removes the main excuse people were making on Torre's behalf (that he was trying to save Kuo's arm).

Torre's utter incompetence regarding the use of Kuo is getting really frustrating now. Is there such a thing as a Grabowski principle for managers? If so, this would have to be it.

2008-06-12 15:43:53
410.   MonkeyBlue
I think Pierce and Rondo is going to be ineffective again because of their injury. I doubt the Lakers are going to give Paul WIDE open 3s like they did in game 2. The Lakers should focus their attention to Ray Ray though because he has been stroking it.
2008-06-12 15:44:34
411.   Brent T
Dodgers have score 0 or 1 runs in 11 of their last 20 games.

It's starting to seem like a team where (almost) everyone is solid, but no one is special.

It's great to have average/above average players like Loney/Kemp/Ethier/DeWitt for cheap, but the Dodgers need someone to emerge as a superstar. Martin comes closest, but he'll never be Piazza with the stick.

Lowe/Penny/Kuroda all are "relatively" cheap, and also average/above average. Will Billingsly and/or Kershaw break out?

2008-06-12 15:47:40
412.   MonkeyBlue
Jones was suppose to provide the Power factor, but we know how that turn out.
2008-06-12 15:47:50
413.   Xeifrank
402. I hate to even mention this. But if Guo is blocked from the rotation and is blocked from pitching in anything but very low leverage relief appearances, then what kind of value could you get in a trade for him or someone who is blocking him? It's unfortunate that Torre would think the back end of the bullpen is set. I think Guo should be getting higher leverage situations ahead of Proctor and Beimel..., and has pitched well enough to be cutting into some of Broxton's 8th inning work. At the very least Guo should be pitching in the 7th inning on, in medium to high leverage situations only (if not in the rotation). Park, Proctor and Wade should be mopping up. I have no problem with Guo mopping up once in a while in a pinch, but this trend is ridiculous. vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:49:58
414.   blue22
410 - It's tough to give a lot of attention to Ray Allen, not allow Pierce wide open 3's, and still prevent KG from going nuts inside. Especially since LA is not really a good defensive team.
2008-06-12 15:50:22
415.   Xeifrank
411. I think Billingsley has already broken out. Also keep in mind the (Furcal - Hu/Maza/Berroa) chasm.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:52:02
416.   Xeifrank
414. Correct. I think the best the Lakers can do defensively is to limit the Celtics 2nd chance opportunities, then let the chips fall where they may.
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 15:52:47
417.   MonkeyBlue
That true blue. Also we'll see tonight if the Ref allow the illegals screens that been going on.
2008-06-12 15:53:07
418.   Gen3Blue
Wasn't Gasol supposed to be our savior in the energy crisis? But then it turned out it takes a couple of barrels of crude to make a liter of ethanol.

Maybe that was gasahol. Never mind.

I don't dare say anything serious until a NPUT!

2008-06-12 15:54:51
419.   El Lay Dave
413 Proctor (and not Wade, who didn't pitch yesterday and only one IP the day before) mopped up today. I think the only back end positions that are solid in the coaching staffs' minds right now are Saito, Broxton and Beimel.
2008-06-12 15:56:07
420.   El Lay Dave
Hey! Take that NBA chat over here:


2008-06-12 15:56:25
421.   Bob Timmermann
The NBA Finals chat is up on the Griddle

2008-06-12 15:56:45
422.   Bob Timmermann
That was eerie.
2008-06-12 15:57:45
423.   Eric Enders
419 "I think the only back end positions that are solid... are Saito, Broxton and Beimel."

Well, you're certainly right about Broxton.

2008-06-12 16:05:47
424.   Jon Weisman
418 - No NPUT on the horizon...
2008-06-12 16:08:12
425.   Duranimal
What a lifeless bunch we were today!

Makes me think we should have signed A-Rod. I don't like the guy, but he's exactly what we need.

2008-06-12 16:12:43
426.   Gen3Blue
424 Probably a good thing, as a long wait will make my discourse much more civil, in this Dodger's mood.
2008-06-12 16:17:31
427.   CajunDodger
The Dodgers have scored 70 fewer runs than the Cubs in two more games...

They have given up 4 fewer runs in two more games...


2008-06-12 16:22:14
428.   Xeifrank
We appear to only be 1.5 games ahead of the Giants and 2 ahead of the Padres. It seems like only yesterday that people were commenting that "atleast we aren't the Padres".
vr, Xei
2008-06-12 16:26:39
429.   Jacob L
When he hit bottom, I assume we'll know by the thud.
2008-06-12 16:27:07
430.   Jacob L
By "he" I meant "we", by which I meant the Dodgers.
2008-06-12 16:27:56
431.   Jacob L
Anybody going to the Stadium for the Fathers Day catch on Sunday?
2008-06-12 16:30:37
432.   Eric Enders
Any truth to the rumor that the pregame catch session will double as a tryout for new shortstops?
2008-06-12 16:33:40
433.   Jacob L
432 I'm going with my 3 year old little girl, my 10 month old baby girl, and my wife. I'm going to be brutally honest. None of us is better than Angel Berroa.
2008-06-12 16:34:02
434.   Jacob L
But the 10 month old has the most upside.
2008-06-12 16:38:26
435.   sporky
I would like to offer Torre a basket of red round and Roma tomatoes.
2008-06-12 16:41:30
436.   Eric Enders
Grady Little had a killer tomato last year and it didn't do him much good.
2008-06-12 16:42:56
437.   El Lay Dave
435 Nice try, but once he cooks them in a nice marinara sauce, the salmonella will be dead.

Or, Bowa will intercept it and force LaRoche to eat them all in some bizarre hazing ritual.

Perhaps they should be crushed and the Dodgers bathed in it to try and remove the stink.

2008-06-12 16:43:37
438.   El Lay Dave
436 Succinct, faster, and funnier.
2008-06-12 16:46:42
439.   sporky
I should just resort to plushies.

2008-06-12 16:54:41
440.   Gen3Blue
I have to mention that I am a possible tomato sufferer, and it has made me more acid than usual.
2008-06-12 16:54:58
441.   underdog
425 ARod's great and all but after watching him a few times this season, including live in person yesterday, I guarantee you there would be plenty of times here where we would be wondering if we could trade him or wondering what his problem is. Still, I'd take the power potential...

But we have some pretty good potential with Blandy DeRoche.

2008-06-12 16:55:50
442.   Gen3Blue
437 With fava beans?
2008-06-12 16:59:27
443.   arborial
Anybody else read these level headed comments made by Kent after the game

seriously, I am not being sarcastic.

I mean of course it is not just a matter of believing you can win, you still need to score more than the other team. But I am amazed that he says that it is still possible and doesn't assign blame to anyone but the entire team.

2008-06-12 17:04:03
444.   underdog
443 Wow, best thing I've heard from Kent in a long time.


Now it's scary that Kent is being more level-headed now than say the Rosenthals and even Tony Jacksons out there... But it's good to see/hear.

2008-06-12 17:09:41
445.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
By the way, next three games are in Detroit - an AL park. We have two guys who are just built to be DH's right now in Kent and Young, plus three guys for two corner IF spots in Loney, DeWitt, and LaRoche, PLUS a catcher who can always use a day off while keeping his bat in the lineup.

If Mark Sweeney DH's in ANY of these games I am prepared to do something violent.

2008-06-12 17:13:12
446.   sporky
At this point in his career, Mark Sweeney makes a better mascot/cheerleader than a hitter.
2008-06-12 17:22:29
447.   Tom Meagher
432 Hey Eric, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on 333 /379 .
2008-06-12 17:42:19
448.   Eric Enders
477 It's very interesting stuff. I don't really have much to add... other than wondering whether the splitter, since it doesn't appear, is being counted as a "changeup" or falls into the "uncharted" category.
2008-06-12 18:04:33
449.   Gen3Blue
447 448 You guys can see way farther into the future than I--that's no fair.
2008-06-12 18:18:41
450.   LoneStar7
thats how you start a game, lets go now!
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2008-06-12 18:29:51
451.   underdog
450 - NBA chat on the Griddle, come join!
2008-06-12 18:32:32
452.   Bob Hendley
437 - IIRC, Cargill's father had him soak his baseball mitt in tomato sauce...Ask him.
2008-06-12 19:07:28
453.   Bluebleeder87
452 it was actually my dad who did that... It was REAL tomatoes though (the nectar) dude, it worked like a charm, best mit I ever had...
2008-06-12 19:24:03
454.   Bob Hendley
453 - So it was Bleeder! The gnats must have loved you.
2008-06-12 19:53:57
455.   scareduck
439 - a friend of mine who develops animated TV shows for children got a bunch of those a while back. They're quite funny.
2008-06-12 20:41:31
456.   Tom Meagher
448 A split finger FB should be included among the fastballs. I could be wrong, though. Josh's tool lets you break them down by velocity, and I see that Penny has 69 pitches listed as fastballs that are under 90 mph, so I'm assuming that that includes the splitters. The "uncharted" pitches are ones that weren't captured by the f/x, not ones that don't fit into the classification system. If you're really interested in the splitter and its classification, I think Mike Fast is the guy to talk to since he works with the spin data (and I bet if you asked he'd probably do the research). As I understand it, unless you are looking at spin (the Kalk tool does not) you can't differentiate different types of FB.
2008-06-12 21:13:05
457.   Reddog
The thing about baseball is that its a really long season, and when the team is slumping, things look bleak. But it can turn around on a dime. At some point the Dodgers are going to start hitting, and scoring runs, and go on an 8 or 10 game winning streak. And then everyone here will be excited and looking forward to the playoffs.
2008-06-12 21:20:47
458.   Eric Enders
"I see that Penny has 69 pitches listed as fastballs that are under 90 mph, so I'm assuming that that includes the splitters."

The low number would indicate that it's probably the regular fastball, though, right? Remember, in Penny's first two-three starts of the year his fastball was sitting at 87-89 mph. I'm guessing that's what those 69 pitches are, and that the splitters are hidden somewhere else.

Penny, to my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, does not throw a straight change anymore. That's why I theorized that those "changeups" were actually splitters, because he sort of uses the splitter as his changeup anyway. It's not a fast splitter, but more of a slower forkball type.

2008-06-12 21:39:45
459.   Jon Weisman
2008-06-12 22:06:05
460.   Tom Meagher
I broke Penny's fastballs in 2008 down by velocity:

<88 6
88 27
89 36
90 45
91 68
92 108
93 128
94 160
95 151
96 91
97 42
98 6

I then broke them down into four groups: a) less than 92 (182 pitches), b) 92+ and less than 94 (236), c) 94+ and less than 96 (311), and 96+ (139).

The six numbers below are average velocity, %balls, %batted, wOBA on batted balls, singles per batted ball, and isolated power.
a) 90.33, 38.5%, 17.0%, .225, .161, .065
b) 93.09, 39.4%, 15.7%, .414, .243, .216
c) 94.99, 34.4%, 21.9%, .343, .309, .074
d) 96.81, 40.3%, 21.6%, .559, .267, .400

Sample size caveats should be peppered throughout any analysis like this, obviously. It would seem that his slowest fastballs (presumably these are mostly split finger) have been very effective. This feeds the "hitters are sitting on (non-splitter) fastballs" hypothesis. The fastballs that have been have been slower have been hammered and also have missed the zone more. The fastballs in his typical range (94-95) appear to have the best command (by ball%) and have not been hit hard power-wise (.074 ISO) but have been slapped for a ton of singles. The fastest fastballs have been hammered when hit (both in terms of power and singles) and have missed the zone quite a bit. If you check out the plot (, he just does not seem to have good command on the fastest fastballs (though a) sample size and b) I don't know the general spread): the hits have all been out over the middle of the plate and, except for two that were kept down, have been in the upper half of the zone without being in the upper sixth or so of the strike zone.

Taking a look at the strikes that weren't put into play, here are the percentages of called strikes, swinging strikes, and fouls in that order:
a) 51.9, 9.9, 38.3
b) 45.3, 9.4, 45.3
c) 25.7, 15.4, 58.8
d) 30.2, 13.2, 56.6

Including ALL pitches (not just strikes), the swings per pitch are a) .385, b) .403, c) .543, d) .482. So it seems that hitters have laid off of or have been deceived by the slower fastballs (again, hitters that can differentiate them seem to be laying off the splitter, bolstering its success) and batters are not having too much difficulty getting the bat on the higher velocity FB's. Balls in play per strike shows a) .306, b) .279, c) .362, and d) .311, so it really does seem that hitters are waiting for a typical Penny fastball and slapping them for singles.

So the data seems to back up Eric's hypothesis very well - well done!

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