Trading Lowe and Penny is THE right thing to do.

Updates from Diamond:

http://www.beloblog.com/Pe_Blogs/prosports/2008/06/breakfast-in-detroit-dodgers-l.html

1 - No trade is right or wrong unless you know what's coming back.

Happy Father's Day, everybody!

Diamond mentioned that McDonald would need a 40-man spot, except he's ALREADY on the roster.

3 QED: We traded Odalis Perez--yay!--for Elmer Dessens (boo!). And we also sent them $8m, Blake Johnson and Julio Pimentel.

Sometimes a release is much better . . .

1 Whom do you suggest they are traded to?

7 Contenders in need of pitching.

8 ditto.

Like Boston or New York?

Philly maybe? Cubs?

8,9- Any players who you would like to see Dodgers from these teams? I know that the idea of Robbie Cano is Dodger blue is pretty cool.

6 Hey, if it wasn't for that, we would have never gotten Brady Clark.

1 You can't trade Penny now unless he's finished, we can't replace him next year without putting way too much faith in James McDonald, Kershaw or Jason Schmidt. Best case scenario, we get Sabathia which gives us a rotation of Sabathia, Bills, Penny, Kuroda, Kershaw/McDonald/Schmidt. I'm okay with giving one of those guys a chance, swapping them out as necessary, but two of them are too much, and it becomes all three in the very likely event we can't out bid the Yankees for Sabathia.

3 Well, assuming they wouldn't be trading veterans for veterans (I know, perhaps an assumption that shouldn't be made. Afterall it is the Dodgers), any young players they get in return would be okay. So long as they are of the ilk they would likely get for Lowe in supplemental picks next year.

10 Cano is a top 30 player, there's no way the Yankees give that up without throwing in something way better than Penny or Lowe.

13 Your probably right although Cano is having a miserable season, and the Dodgers have plenty of B prospects that could sweeten it.

plus he has the arm to play SS.

14 No competent GM would trade a top 30 player without getting an A prospect back in return.

10 Pitchers. Kennedy? Hughes? Bucholz? I don't follow the Phillies enough to know their minor leagues. Cubs, probably someone like Gallagher? Pie?

Go Young!

11 Sabathia? 6'7" 290 lbs? Are you serious? I'm sorry but he screams bust as soon as he gets that big contract he's likely to get from some team. Lord please don't let it be the Dodgers!

From the Diamond Leung blog:

Andy LaRoche took a ground ball to the face that left him with a nosebleed. Who hit it? "Bowa," LaRoche said with a smile. "He did it on purpose."

At least the cursed one has a sense of humor.

And happy birthday to all you fathers out there! :)

1

Trade for what or rather who?

Dodgers have been known as a pitching team for the last couple of years, not a offensive power team.

So maybe at the All Star break, trade away some players and go for power in the middle of the lineup by hiring a big hitting vet or do something in the offseason? Thinking about the future, Kent is gone after this year, Garcipara probably gone, Jones is not going to come back "big time" and will be gone after '09, so where does that leave the Dodgers for power hitters for the rest of the season or even for '09?

Maybe trade for a veteran power hitter, or are there players in the minors who are young but swing a mean bat? That's really the question, win more games this year by buying power, or map out a strategy to improve the middle of the batting order for next year with trades or go younger by pulling up hitters from the minors.

16 No competent GM would trade a top 30 player without getting an A prospect back in return.

Well there, you've solved it. First trade them Colletti. Then, trade for Cano. Sounds like a winner.

According to Tony Jackson LaRoche got hit with a bad hop in BP and had a bad nose bleed but he is OK. If that is the case why on a day when Kent is being given a day off and hitting is so important isn't either Young in to play second or LaRoche?

The whole point in bringing up LaRoche is to use him!

17 You would honestly rather have James McDonald than Sabathia?

19 Trade for what or rather who?

I would try to re-stock our farm with undervalued prospects (similar to the A's haul for Haren). This would give us more options for 2009 and beyond.

16 Wait a second, the Dodgers once traded Piazza and didn't get an A prospect in return. But that's right, you did say competent GM.

I just feel a discussion about getting anything meaningful for Penny when his value is at its lowest is pointless. I understand the unhapppiness, but let's be real.

24 Or another amazing player, which Sheffield was.

12 The only time NedCo traded for a quality young player (Ethier) was when the Bradley mandate (remove Milton at all costs) was issued by LAD ownership.

24
They did get one of the best hitters in baseball. I'm not saying I would have done the deal, but they didn't get nothing.

"and another leadoff hit for Pierre"

-Charlie Stiener.

That was a pretty good execution of a double play by Cabrera.

Batting Maza second makes me very scared someone doesn't get the priciple of getting more ab's for your better bats.

23

Restock to what end?

The Dodgers are ether going to stay a pitching team, or a power team.

This season is ether going to turn around (doubtful) or Colleti needs to start making the moves sooner rather than later to remake the Dodgers from what it is now to a different kind of team. Parking Lot Frank may be lots of things, but not putting a winning team on the field is no way to make money off all that $15/pop parking at Chavez ravine.

Winning Teams = Butts in the seats at the ball park.

Loosing Teams = Butts in front of the TV

22 Let's see. McDonald at $150,000 or so. Sabathia at around $150 million or so.

Yeah, I guess I would rather have McDonald. Because if neither pans out (a strong possibility---again check the Dodgers track record on big-time free agent signings, heck, check any teams track record) and what would the Dodgers be out if McDonald doesn't pan out?

I'll tell you one thing they wouldn't be out, the countdown to how many more years the Dodgers are stuck with (insert bigtime free agents name here) contract before it's off the books.

But then that has become a favorite past time of Dodgers fans everywhere. Like, only 1 1/2 more years till Jones is off the books! I guess that would be missed, and I should take that into consideration.

31 This is what tipped you off, as opposed to watching Pierre leadoff?

29
It's scary enough that Pierre plays everyday despite being one of the worst players in MLB and will probably have the worst season by an LA Dodger LF ever.

But it's down right terrifying that everyone outside of say Baseball Prospectus, et al -- management, announcers, media -- thinks that Pierre is having a very good season. There's absolutely to mention of Pierre (or Kent for that matter) when talking of the club's offensive struggles, yet those two are the two biggest holes on the team right now outside of SS. At least they are the two holes easiest to replace with the current roster.

Brock, thank you for responding to my LAT'd comment about LaRoche two threads ago, with an LAT'd comment last thread. Perfectly appropriate, and I appreciate the answer.

32 Dodger fans come to DS whether the Dodgers are winning or not. Frank has a gold mine. His main concern about winning (or the appearance of almost winning) is strictly PR related to keep the media off his case.

33 The object of baseball is not to accumulate wins per dollar, it's to get wins. If Sabathia sucks, what are we out of? Just money. Since you seem to not want to sign any free agent ever, why would that even matter? The money would go to some other free agent that would just be a bust anyway.

McDonald is a guy whose ceiling is a three or four starter, Sabathia is one of the five best pitchers in baseball right now. You can't win stocking your team with mediocre guys like McDonald, you win by getting great players and surrounding them with a solid supporting cast. The only great player we have right now is Martin and maybe Bills. We need to get more guys that are well above average.

Berrora, Ardoin, Pierre, Maza all in a row. Pretty funny.

Just a week ago, the argument I made against bringing Andy LaRoche up was that he would not play everyday, which, aside from Delwyn Young's situation (out of options), would be different than how they brought up the other young players.

But the argument I got back is that he has nothing to prove in the minors so even if he was just a pinch hitter, it would be okay.

So, here are we are, less than week since his call up and cries for more playing time for LaRoche are made on a daily basis.

It was pretty well spelled out that he was a back up for Loney and DeWitt, has he taken some ground balls at second, sure but the idea that he would become some super utility man are a bit premature.

I like how Torre puts the "best" hitters in the first three spots to get that first inning out of the way as quickly as possible.

33
MLB minimum is $390,000, and will be $400,000 next season.

And if McDonald didn't pan out, they'd be forced to replace his rotation spot -- which is what we're talking about here -- with a replacement level player. Sabathia is a much better bet to have a good to great season in the next few years than is McDonald. Admittedly, at a cost.

34 Good point. But in despair I guess I accept that without thought at the moment.

40
Part of the "just get him here" argument about LaRoche is that he couldn't have ever been inserted into the lineup from Vegas.

37

Tell that to the Billboard King running the Angeles. He's not only making money, he's putting out a superior winning product with the Anaheim Angeles. (Refusing to go along with the MLB name).

Maybe old Artie is just dumb or something...NAH.

35 I think the traditional media likes him because he's not a primma donna hot shot guy, they see him out there working hard and that he nots a candidate for drug testing.

GMs like him because he does not off the field issues and that he plays everyday. Sure he has limitations but they don't pay him to do those things anyway.

Managers like him because he fits the mode of speed at the top of the line up.

38 But haven't they tried that? Kent, Nomar, Jones, Schmidt, Furcal, Pierre, Penny, Lowe.

How about showing an ability to do it before plunging another $150 million down the toilet?

Look, I don't care about the money. It's not mine. But $150,000 players can easily be discarded. $150 million pitchers not so easy. And here's another thing. $150 million pitchers don't get benched either.

Winning doesn't come from surounding players like Bills and Martin with players like Sabbathia. We have 20 years to prove that.

And in the end, I rather watch young players losing while working at developing and getting better then watch older players lose who have their money and don't produce.

We already know the Dodgers can't spend right. Stick with what they know. Maybe a McDonald will surprise you.

44 All I am saying was that it is not likely you will see either LaRoche or DeWitt play a lot of second base this year unless something happens to Jeff Kent.

They already have 4 or 5 outfielders ahead of LaRoche (if they ever thought about him playing there).

So that means that aside from the occasional platoon start or rest start, Andy was going to do a lot of sitting.

I just think to demand him to play everyday is a bit much considering the reality of the situation.

46 Thats what I think drives us all crazy. He is overvalued for reasons that don't apply much to wins and losses. Ive said before thatif Juan Pierre looked like Billy Ahsley, he would have never made the bigs.

47
I don't understand the logic that since we whiffed by signing Pierre, et al, we should avoid signing great players. The key is avoiding the crap. Sabathia is a great pitcher, whether or not you recognize that is irrelevant.

Also, are you saying Kent, Penny, and Lowe haven't been worth the money? I'll grant you that Kent (old) & Penny (hurt) have been bad this year, but they've been exactly the type of FA we should sign.

45 Scareduck is probably right in one sense, its arguable which team's CF contracts will come back to haunt them in the end but right now if Gary Matthews Jr didn't hit an occasional home run, well he's still probably better than Pierre but...

49
Someone needs to get Photoshop and make such an image.

Mr. Ashley whiffed a wee bit more than Mr. Pierre. And for all we complain about Mr. Pierre's defense, he was no Mr. Ashley.

(I'm feeling all New York Times style like.)

49 Again, I'm just giving my opinion on why he gets that love, not saying its good or bad.

Note to Tiger announcer Rod Allen: if you pause the video of Kershaw's delivery, of course it looks like a hesitation! :)

48- I agree. It's no surprise that they're running Maza out to spell Kent and it's no surprise that several DTers are going to gripe about it.

I don't think I've ever heard that getting good players is a bad thing.

42 MLB minimum is $390,000, and will be $400,000 next season.

$150,000 or $400,000 same thing. It takes alot of $400,000's to get to $150 million, which was the point.

And if McDonald didn't pan out, they'd be forced to replace his rotation spot -- which is what we're talking about here -- with a replacement level player.

Another $400,000 player. That's fine.

Sabathia is a much better bet to have a good to great season in the next few years than is McDonald. Admittedly, at a cost.

I would hope so. He's also a good bet not to pan out just like all the other Dodger busts that have been brought in. I don't think you want to give a long term contract to someone approaching 300 lbs, if he's not there already. It's bad business sense. And like it or not, bad business decisions lead to bad baseball. The money problem is too hard to overcome.

But hey, go ahead. Make the mistake again.

So is Angel Berroa using that airline that flies nonstop from Detroit to Santo Domingo and then back to Cincinnati nonstop?

I hear that the Cincinnati-Santo Domingo route is highly sought after.

52- What if Ashley looked like Pierre?

48
I refuse to accept that Maza is better to have at 2B than LaRoche, so I will not rest until the day comes that LaRoche is ahead of Maza on that depth chart.

At the very least, Delwyn Young plays two positions, and right now is a better hitter than the starters at those positions.

Well before LaRoche got hit in the face this morning he was supposed to play third base for DeWitt.

Me, I like it when the black hole grows to four spots. In a game with DHs. It's just so spicy.

58
"I'm here for the Santo Domingo to Cincinnati direct flight"

"Which one, the 8:00, the 8:15, the 8:30..."

But, when Juan Pierre is the only player so far to have a hit what does that mean?

Berroa is now 8 for 22 lifetime vs. Robertson.

63
The 8:15 uses one of them big fancy new Airbuses!

50 Also, are you saying Kent, Penny, and Lowe haven't been worth the money? I'll grant you that Kent (old) & Penny (hurt) have been bad this year, but they've been exactly the type of FA we should sign.

Would you like to back that up with a World's championship or 2? How's about a couple of playoff series wins? Could you at least throw in a 95 win seaon or 2?

If these great acqusitions are so great, where's the results? DO you mean, they needed more great acqusitions? Well then just how great are they?

Oh, I know, it's all just been a bit of bad luck. Any team can have 20 years of bad luck or so. Right.

Sabathia is facing Maddux in Cleveland.

Will that game be done in less than 2:30?

67 - I assume you're from Chicago, so...

60 You will be driven to drink if you get on that Pee Wee for Pierre train.

67 Penny, Lowe and Kent weren't the problems. The Edwards, and Grabowski's were. Right now, we have a lot of solid players so we don't have to use an Edwards and a Grabowski. We just need one or two guys to put us over the top.

No LaRoche even against a lefty.
Pierre/Maza at the top of the lineup.

Dodger Management makes it easy to hate this team.

Get rid of Colletti, Torre, Pierre, etc.

Same show different day.

Juan Pierre is on pace for the worst season of his career. I don't really know how that qualifies as "solid and productive". But hey that's me.

I repeat LaRoche got hit in the face this morning.

72
LaRoche isn't in there today presumably because of being hit by a bad hop in the face.

Yeah...Torre's lineup choices have been rediculously bad thus far. Pierre is like Barbera Stanwick in "Double Indemity" Torre is Fred McMurray.

In my first ever trip to Comerica, the weather was just like today's. I only got through 1 1/2 innings.

The severe thunderstorm that hit carried a small tornado with it. I got to drive back from Comerica to my hotel by the Detroit airport in the dark.

That was not a lot of fun.

Oh, that DT is Edward G. Robinson.

76
Did Pierre seduce Torre into dropping Andruw Jones's ability off the back of a moving train?

"I picked you for the job, not because I think you're so darn smart, but because I thought you were a shade less dumb than the rest of the outfit. Guess I was wrong. You're not smarter, Torre... you're just a little balder."

50 Ned did not sign Kent (initially), Lowe or Penny. However, he has signed more than his share of crappy FAs. WHAT he has signed is why a number of us are leery of his ability to discern quality FAs from non-quality FAs.

If the Dodgers were my fantasy team, I'd trade all the good players to Bob for nothing, to help him beat Sam DC's kid.

I don't understand why we are back to the 4 man black hole. Sure there may be some rational for each player playing today, but then again there is a finite no. of games left, and if every several days, you don't play some of your good players, well you could lose a lot.

82
I'm already beating him!

But my nephew's best friend is atop the leaderboard and he show no signs of giving up.

Kinsler just got picked off on the old 'third to first' pickoff that 'never' works.

Hey Jon,
A very pleasant, good Father's Day to you, wherever you may be!
And thanks for harnessing the bucking bronc that is Dodger Thoughts.

81 Free agency has always been a risk no matter what sport because aside from the rare A-Rod, free agents have already played maybe 9 years of pro ball (minors and majors) and accumulated all that wear and tear. They are usually going to be in their late 20's or early 30's. You are also paying for past performance.

My only issue in regards of a free agency was the length of Pierre's deal. The other ones I understood and in Furcal, Schmidt and Jones' case, thought they were fine signings.

When I was caught in a "severe thunderstorm" in Detroit, I realized that the word "severe" was not used for ironic purposes.

71 Penny, Lowe and Kent weren't the problems. The Edwards, and Grabowski's were. Right now, we have a lot of solid players so we don't have to use an Edwards and a Grabowski.

Okay, if you say so. But mark my words. They can do whatever MRI they want on Penny, but the prognosis is still going to be he needs to lose weight. And that's the same thing that'll face Sabbathia. And as most of us know, losing weight doesn't get easier when you get older.

We just need one or two guys to put us over the top.

Whenever I read comments like this I think of the joke that follows...oh yeah? Which 2?

Answer: Ruth & Gehrig!

Jon's Father's Day gift is food prepared by his younger son.

His food preparation skills could use some work I hear.

My only issue in regards of a free agency was the length of Pierre's deal.

You didnt have an issue with Pierre's ability level?

80 "I've got this little man inside of my lineup, he never lets me make a good desicion"

Kershaw isn't using his super slow curve ball today.

Man, these Tigers announcers are inoffensive but so... dull...

I watched the last couple of innings and Kershaw's looked pretty solid.

My soccer team lost a game it had to win to make the playoffs and I severely jammed my toe to make it even better. With the Dodgers and Lakers playing today I hope this day isn't just an utter sports disaster day. C'mon Sports God, where are you!

91 No.

From our friends at the NWS (who write in all caps):
..A SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 230 PM EDT FOR NORTHEASTERN WAYNE AND SOUTHEASTERN OAKLAND COUNTIES...

AT 147 PM EDT...NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR INDICATED A SEVERE THUNDERSTORM CAPABLE OF PRODUCING UP TO ONE INCH DIAMETER HAIL...AND DAMAGING WINDS UP TO 60 MPH. THIS STORM WAS LOCATED NEAR SOUTHFIELD...MOVING EAST AT 39 MPH.

THE SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WILL BE NEAR... OAK PARK BY 200 PM EDT... HAZEL PARK BY 205 PM EDT... NORTHEAST DETROIT BY 210 PM EDT... HARPER WOODS BY 215 PM EDT... GROSSE POINTE SHORES BY 220 PM EDT...

THE WARNING INCLUDES AREAS SURROUNDING THESE LOCATIONS... DETROIT... SOUTHFIELD... ROYAL OAK... GROSSE POINTE... DOWNTOWN DETROIT... DEARBORN... BIRMINGHAM...

AT 137 PM...A TRAINED WEATHER SPOTTER REPORTED LARGE TREE LIMBS DOWN IN NOVI...AND AT 145 PM...ANOTHER SPOTTER ESTIMATED WINDS OF 65 MPH IN FARMINGTON.

DeWitt hit his peak in the middle of May and has steadily declined since. Is this a slump or a return to the mean?

93 You just had to say it to see it.

Siddown MCab!

95--That explains quite a bit with respect to where you are coming from in your "defense of Dodger mgmt" posts. If you liked acquiring Juan Pierre, then I can see why the other stuff wouldnt bother you either.

Things to watch during the rain delay over on ESPN.

Fresno State V Rice....sort of kind of maybe local boys....

96 - Why do those weather people have to shout everything? They're like Garrett Morris in that old SNL skit.

And speaking of mother nature, here comes the rain again.

39 Berrora, Ardoin, Pierre, Maza all in a row. Pretty funny.

Even funnier, three of the four have the only three Dodger hits today.

96 What training does one get to tell that a tree is down. More importantly does the spotter have some type of measuring device to estimate the MPH?

87 My only issue in regards of a free agency was the length of Pierre's deal.

Well, here we could agree somewhat. If they would have signed him to one of those NBA 10 day contracts, perhaps that would have been easier to take.

The other ones I understood and in Furcal, Schmidt and Jones' case, thought they were fine signings.

And therin lies the problem. Most think they were good signings. If only results followed those thoughts. Sadly it almost never does. Like you say. You are paying for past performance.

Here comes the delay.
Should be short according to radar---> its a pretty small storm and there's nothing else behind it after it blows through.

Well, there goes Kershaw's first MLB win. He must wait a few more days.

I at least hope the 4 scoreless innings will count.

87 I am just annoyed that whenever NedCo makes a FA decision he picks the wrong path. However, I must give him credit for consistency.

Kershaw may come back out.
Delay shouldnt be more than 20 minutes.

105 So who should have been our 1-2 starters since 2005. How about our second baseman? Shortstop?

Radar looks to me like a short storm.
I'd love to have an hour ( I got a task to do) and return to see Kuo take the mound.

5 things:

DT made me cry yesterday. My heart goes out to everyone who shared. I was trying to make a post, but couldn't get the right words together. After reading that thread, though, I felt stronger. And I want to thank Jon for that.

Happy Father's Day!

Brad Penny is stupid.

Joe Torre isn't worth the money.

Bob and I are looking pretty good in the projection department.

Btw, I know I'm way late to this conversation but the idea of trading both Penny and Lowe is fairly ludicrous, or at least unlikely even if the Dodgers wanted to. Trading Lowe when he's generally one of the most solid starters AND presumably get a comp pick for him after losing him to free agency after the season seems enough reason to keep him. I think trading Penny would be a neat idea - if they could get anything of value for him right now which they can't. As noted by Jon and others above, why trade him when his value is at its lowest? We'd have to throw in a top prospect to get anyone of good value in return. If he can come back from his "general soreness" and be effective again, as we get closer to trading deadline and other teams are more desperate, then I'd say, yes, try to trade him.

Feh. Rain delay. I knew my toe throbbing was foretelling something but wasn't sure what.

100 Yep, I'm the Drum Major of the Juan Pierre Marching and Chowder Society.

I guess I just don't believe that Juan Pierre deserves all the heat that he gets, he is not the sole reason why the Dodgers struggle. He's 1/25 of a team.

And I happen to believe that when a team loses, its the whole not pieces that deserve to be criticized. Its not vets vs. kids, its not pitchers vs. hitters.

Frankly every player has had their opportunities to do something positive this year and for the most part, they have not been able to do it on it a consistent basis.

And again, I do think its unfair to label me as a defender of management, because I sometimes present what I think they are doing does not mean that I agree with them or not, I am just trying to bring balance to the discussion.

I dont mind trading Lowe if you can get something better than what the comp picks would be at the deadline. Its likely the Dodgers will be well out of it by then.

Penny's a different story. He had a bad 2nd half in 2007, and a bad 1st half here in 2008---> he might be done as far as being an above average pitcher. Since his contract is good for 2009, it'd probably be better keeping him around 1 more season.

Billingsley
Sabathia
Kershaw
Kuroda
Penny

Thats not a bad rotation.

I dont think you really gain much from trading Penny right now when his value is at his lowest.

5 things:

DT made me cry yesterday. My heart goes out to everyone who shared. I was trying to make a post, but couldn't get the right words together. After reading that thread, though, I felt stronger. And I want to thank Jon for that.

Happy Father's Day!

Brad Penny is stupid.

Joe Torre isn't worth the money.

Bob and I are looking pretty good in the projection department.

114
Expressing an idea about Juan Pierre that does not involve his ultimate execution is cause for a trip to the guillotine by members of the Dodger Thoughts Committee of Public Safety.

He's 1/25 of a team.

He sucks up more ABs on the team than most anyone else.

He's not just 1/25 of the team.

Whoa, that was intense. Sorry for the double post.

116
My projections are generally just made up on the spur of the moment.

I'm also the guy who said Kosuke Fukudome wouldn't cut it in the majors.

If I say enough things, eventually one of them will be right.

114
Pierre's 1/25th is the share that currently has bulletproof bench immunity, something not shared by many others.

The anger here sometimes gets placed at Pierre, but it's really for Torre and Colletti. Pierre presently is, at best, the 3rd best OF on the club, yet he is never benched. That's where the anger comes from.

And to be fair, sometimes I think you don't clarify when you are posting the management point of view rather than your own, so you can see how that gets lumped together.

115

Who cares about pitching when you have no offense? The Dodgers problem is not pitching right now, it's 20+ innings without a hit before yesterday's game.

When the Dodgers hit, they win games, when they whiff, they loose games and right now Dodgers hitting blows chunks.

The one real positive from the last week is today's Kershaw start.

4 solid innings against a good lineup.

2ks, 2bbs--he's pitching to contact today, but doing a good job. Not getting hit hard.

122 - Without a run, you mean. Though I could see it could almost feel like the other is true.

But yeah, it would have been better if Kershaw pitched yesterday when there was run support, and Penny pitched today, when there was rain.

Nothing I post is my own opinion. It's all the Word of the one true Ch-i. I'm just the vessel.

Per Diamond Leung:

Also, just to clarify, Andy LaRoche was never in the lineup today against left-hander Nate Robertson. It was Blake DeWitt all the way

If you'll excuse me, I need to go sharpen my pitchfork.

So:

LaRoche wont play before Maza at 2nd
LaRoche wont play before Dewitt against a Lefty.
LaRoche wont play before Loney against a lefty.
LaRoche wont play before Pierre in LF.

At some point, you just stop caring and just reason if the Dodgers do dumb stuff, they deserve to lose. And hope that resulting losses/poor play will change their outlook on things.

At 31-37, that hasnt happened yet.

The new Troy from WV video (on Diamond's blog) is hilarious. A nice homage to the Rocky IV training montage.

Fresno State jumps out to a 4-0 lead on Rice in the 2nd.

Fresno State is good, but they have gotten every break possible in the tournament. Once the other team makes an error, they just don't convert it into one run, they convert it into multiple runs.

I will not say who this link is directed at:

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/314222

Use your imagination.

127
My pitchfork is now sharp, but I need some carosene for the torches.

On Friday night, per the LA Times:
Torre said LaRoche would start at third again Sunday against left-hander Nate Robertson

Which makes 126 all the more disheartening.

131
My spelling needs work.

Just think how much worse the Dodgers would be if they only had a $1 million/year manager.

Yeah, I'm not sure if Leung is right there. He was going to start, then got his nose smashed in this morning. I'm just gonna leave it at that. My pitchfork is needed for other more pressing issues at the moment. Though I do have a torch ready.

Tony Jackson reports in his blog that...

He likes his hotel!

If anyone would know the original lineup, it'd be one of the beat writers like Jackson/Leung/ or the Dodgers PR guy that runs their blog.

With a day off tomorrow, its even more strange Russ would DH, with Ardoin at catcher. LaRoche could have DH'ed with Russ playing catcher.

I don't think articulating the reasons for some of management's moves is a vote in support of those moves. It is simply trying to figure out what someone else was thinking.

Also, I think sometimes we (me included) take on a mob mentality here. Again, pointing out that maybe we are getting carried away does not mean we support the current roster or line up. We think a disproportinate amount of the problems are caused by one player. Like most things in life, the collapse of this team is the result of numerous factors. Pierre is just one of them. If we were to start weighting these factors, Pierre, IMO doesn't even make the top three.

I don't think articulating the reasons for some of management's moves is a vote in support of those moves. It is simply trying to figure out what someone else was thinking.

Also, I think sometimes we (me included) take on a mob mentality here. Again, pointing out that maybe we are getting carried away does not mean we support the current roster or line up. We think a disproportinate amount of the problems are caused by one player. Like most things in life, the collapse of this team is the result of numerous factors. Pierre is just one of them. If we were to start weighting these factors, Pierre, IMO doesn't even make the top three.

135
Does it have an elevator...?

WIth that double post, I am out of here for a while. Off to the East Coast for work.

Sabathia will face the Dodgers either Friday or Saturday depending on whether the Indians use a fifth starter. If it's Saturday he'd face Kershaw.

Turkey about to take on the Czech Republic. Winner goes on to take on my Croatians! Loser goes home.

If there's a tie after 90 minutes, there will be a penalty shootout right away as both teams would have the same number of points and same number of goals scored and allowed.

And we're back

And...we're back. Extra Innings missed 1 out in the 5th.

Kershaw is out. Park warming in the bullpen. Not Kuo.

Kershaw is done. Robertson is still in there. Park will take over for Kershaw.

The missed out was a Kemp 5-3 groundout, for those of you scoring at home. Or even if you're alone.

I couldn't resist. Sorry.

If Park can keep his mystical season going, he'll really deserve it against this Tiger lineup.

147
I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the idea of players or teams "deserving" to win or lose.

144 In the LA Times today, Torre is quoted as saying he'd be starting Kuo, not Park, if Penny is out of the rotation. So that should explain that. He can't be used for long relief now.

When things aren't going your way, Detroit gets away with bringing back a very mediocre pitcher after a rain delay and we greet him with a 3? pitch inning.

I love Gameday. First guy on the Tigers strikes out. Second guy grounds out. And with what it says is the third guy up there's a pickoff attempt at 1st. Huh?!

Wow. That was a gift strike 2.

149
Except that Penny's next start is Friday and pitching today would still give Kuo 4 full days rest.

Pierre is 5th on the team in plate appearances this year. Kent and DeWitt are 6th and 7th.

Flat out great at bat by Polanco.

Here it goes again.

Do we blame this loss on the weather?

I beg for Ordonez to make it quick and painless.

154
Since Furcal went out, Pierre has 20 more PA than anyone else on the team.

Cabrera coming up with the bases loaded? Awesome.

154
That's not a criticism, is it...?

Park and bases loaded. Look out Sportscenter!

Good recovery by Berroa!

Thank God for bad base running.

Hey, nice play by whoever we at short.

wesley makes a great play, and so does danny...well that could of been much worse...but two runs is always a large mountain to climb with this team

So I guess we're not getting Wesley Wright back. At least we have Mario Alvarez!!!

166
Don't be mad, but three runs is a larger mountain! :)

166 sorry i meant 3...which is even bigger mountain a mountain than 2

Dewitt's OPS = .749

Thames has serious power.

The clock just struck midnight.

Dodgers are getting swept down the River Thames.

Safely at work, but I've decided now that the best way to change lanes coming down the 110 southbound to exit at 4th St after the 101 interchange is to use the Tokyo Drift maneuver.

Next stop : The Mean.

well happy fathers day everyone, at least we have a little eurocup and us open to cheer us up

There's Chan Ho.
Took till June 15th to finally see him.

Penny & Park to DL
McDonald & Troncoso up

DO IT.

At least the last couple of games I have enjoyed being in the game basically half way. It seemed for a while there we were always getting done in in the first two innings.

I'd recall Greg Miller instead of Troncoso.

That last homer was no Picnic.

some good news.

Bryan Morris is pitching for the first time in like a month.

5 runs = The Murderhorn

Another reason why guys are not up front with their injuries, trying to stay in the big leagues.

Earlier it was reported that Park had said he had shoulder issues but was ready to pitch.

I am sure the last thing he wants is to go on the DL for fear of never being able to get back in the game.

Czechs up 1-0 on the Turks.

Fresno State are discovering that the Owls are now they seem and lead 11-0 in the 4th.

Rod Allen prefers the NY Times style as well:

"Mr. Torre coming to take Mr. Park out of the game."

Hopefully this game won't meet or exceed the Tiger win quota for today.

186
Although I should point out that the New York Times doesn't use titles like Mr. in its sports stories.

Rain started, it was time for Father's Day (for me. My Dad is a little later). Open gifts, including a Blue Tooth (thank you Arnold Schwarzenegger!) Forget about game until just now I'm thinking of going on DT. And it's 5-0. Clunk.

But what's really sticking in my craw is, why Maza would start a game when LaRoche is right there on the bench and, unlike Maza, might hit a home run?!

Of course, I might have missed the news that LaRoche poked his eye out with chopsticks at a Chinese joint last night.

188 I think they used to, however.

The funniest use of the Times' formality was in a review of a rock concert by "Mr. Loaf."

110 So who should have been our 1-2 starters since 2005. How about our second baseman? Shortstop

Does it matter? They could have picked up some Shawn Estes types till Bills, Kershaw, McDonald were ready. Also, by doing much worse then 80-80, perhaps they land another Kershaw or two in the draft. Instead of a Withrow or Martin.

As for 2nd and SS? Again, does it matter? Izturis would have been fine. I'm sure they could find a journeymen 2b or SS to go until DeWitt or LaRoche or Hu were ready.

They didn't win anyways. So, it doesn't really matter who they put out there...until they are ready to win. And when they are, they don't have absurd contracts standing in the way of playing someone.

Why is Luis Maza the designated whipping boy today when Martin, Loney, Kemp, and Ethier are a combined 0 for 13?

And why does EVERY single bad day by a Dodger player lead to people asking for mass executions?

Not every play in a baseball game can be summed as "Ned Colletti is terrible and he must be fired."

If the solutions were as simplistic as some people seem to think they are, I would be shocked.

Games like this don't make me feel bad to root for the Dodgers. It makes me wonder how I can get along with the same people I respected for their discourse Friday night and Saturday morning.

I have a nominee for todays Monday Moment. Possibly paraphrasing here -

"It looked like this game was on cruise control but for the Dodgers the GPS is hooked to the satellite and the satellite is out."

Huh?

This was shortly after I thought I heard Reuss refer to the ballpark as ComAmerica Park.

Not a good day for the Dodger radio team.

Can't win, don't try. Got it.

Colletti's part in this--->his FA acquisitions, and the guys he got rid of---> is huge.

Its like Jon said a couple days ago:
This season can be summed up in two words: Ned Colletti.

I woke up half an hour ago and realized I'm missing the Dodger game. Guess I'm not missing much at least.

192 And why does EVERY single bad day by a Dodger player lead to people asking for mass executions?

Who is asking for mass executions? I am merely requesting a change in philosophy.

The losses don't bother me a bit. I don't expect them to win. So why be frustrated?

194 Can't win, don't try. Got it.

Wrong! It's more like can't win a certain way...how's about try somethig new?

What's that definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results? That is where the frustration part comes in for most fans.

Sign free agents, it doesn't work. Oh well, sign some more. It doesn't work. Oh well, sign some more, it doesn't work. Wow this is frustrating. That's okay, we just need to sign some more.

197

For a person that is not frustrated, you sure do come off frustrated when you repeat the same mantra over and over.

198

You have to be smarter in signing free agents. You can't just completely stop signing free agents.

Does it matter? They could have picked up some Shawn Estes types till Bills, Kershaw, McDonald were ready. Also, by doing much worse then 80-80, perhaps they land another Kershaw or two in the draft. Instead of a Withrow or Martin.

So they should just try and lose in some off chance they cash in on a top 10 pick again?

200 NedCo is a slow learner. Makes the same mistakes over and over. Good thing he inherited a great farm system.

NedCo is a slow learner

You're giving him too much credit.

I'd be missing Grady if he and Torre weren't the same person.

this turkey czech match is great, turkey is playing with a ton of energy

205
It reads as it it's exciting.

I'm not much of a soccer fan but the Switzerland-Portugal game is much more interesting than Dodger baseball at the moment.

207
But there's nothing at stake in that match. Portugal has already won the group and the Swiss are playing out the string.

who is going to catch here?

208 National Pride. Portugal just hit the sidebar of the goal but it didn't go in. Suill 0-0

And thanks for playing Euro 2008, Turkey. There will be parting gifts for you on the way out.

209 Russ, I assume.

209
They'll lost the DH as Martin will move to C.

209
Martin would catch and the Dodgers won't have a DH after this.

It really doesn't take much to be seen as a defender of management here.

If you don't slam management, you are seen as someone who thinks every decision he makes is a good one.

Maybe I am just someone who thinks constantly complaining about the same thing doesn't really advance the discussion. And for me, it doesn't make me feel any better to complain so I don't do it.

So do you think the players feel that management is incompetent? Do you think they can recognize bad lineup and roster decisions? Do you think that diminishes their performance? Or are we the only ones who care? Right now, I don't think Ethier, Loney, or Kemp would care if they got traded to a club that knew what it was doing.

LaRoche alert!

LaRoche alert.

197 I'm not frustrated about the losing. That's to be expected. I guess you'd say I'm frustrated that things don't change. But's it's getting to apathetic.

200 If it wasn't 20 years of being "not smart" I might agree. I'm not against the signing of free agents per se. Just think it would be nice to take a few years off and build the team up, and determine where their actual longterm needs are and stop looking for what the needs are for "this year" every offseason. Doing something like that might allow you to not sign "two" CF'ers in back-to-back years when you had Kemp.

201 I don't happen to see rebuilding as "trying to lose" even though that might be the result. I actually think it to be a smart process. And one that's likely to yield better results then we have seen these past 20 years if only they would give it a chance.

Stand down.

(Sigh)

GOAL!! Swiss lead!!

216
The players mainly worry about themselves. That's the nature of pro athletes, especially baseball players.

Kemp is not going to be like Kobe Bryant and say to management "I think we need a Pau Gasol type to play left field to help me out."

please make some spectacular play laroche. it may take that to get a chance to stay there.

Yeah, I know what BH means in 216 . It's one thing to be critical, which is hard to avoid these days, and to be critical in a fair way, of management and so on. But I would at least people to ask themselves, Have I made this same point repeatedly? Or am I bringing something new to the critique? If it's the latter, I'm all for it. If it's the 100th time we've heard you say _____ about ______, at least ask yourself if it's worth saying again.

I do understand the frustration, and even the anger. I just would like to see be rational about it, if possible. In general I love the discussions here, and when people are critical, well I think we all have made some great points and asked some great questions over time. But try to be fair, and at least somehow "new," you know.

What would make us all feel better is, well, the team playing better.

216 I don't think so, I don't think they really care outside of their own situation. They have too much to worry about than to figure out who should be on the roster.

Really, I think the only sport where you hear those type of complaints is the NBA and then only players like Kobe, Garnett (Minnesota version), Jason Kidd, and now a little bit from Lebron James.

221
Gasol's strike zone would be huge!

The Tigers announcers mistakenly think they're announcing a golf tournament. When they actually raise their voice slightly or speak up in anyway, I feel like I'm waking up from a catnap.

Nice turn by LaRoche!

Gasol's strike zone would be huge

Especially against the Red Sox.

Typical baseball player's day:
1) go to park
2) find out if they're starting that day
3) get excited or pouty as need be
4) repeat

Well, speaking of the Lakers, I'm going to Tivo the Lakers game to watch later, because it's my g/f's bday and somehow I think going out to dinner is a better way to celebrate it than me watching the Lakers and throwing things around. Call me silly.

I do hope they win. At least make this day not a total washout, sports-wise.

227 - Agreed. That's where D.Y has the most issues playing second base, turning the double play.

Woo hoo! Andy's playing second! I didn't even notice that 'til then.

Maybe I am just someone who thinks constantly complaining about the same thing doesn't really advance the discussion.

What does "advancing the discussion" really mean?

What should be commented on in your opinion?

Baseball is a really simple game. There arent that many things that change from day to day that warrant discussion. When something does change (such as Angel Berroa), you complain that we talk about that too much.

So, what exactly is worthy of discussion?
Or, what can we do to "advance the discussion"?

The weird thing about playing Maza over LaRoche is that Maza hardly constitutes a PVL. The guy has 49 career ABs. He's no Lucille II or anything.

Fortunately, Kershaw should be well rested for Saturday and I won't have to interrupt watching Tiger's quest for his 3rd U.S. Open by checking the Dodger game.

Umpire has other things to do Guillen, sorry.

and Turkey got a shot, they score a goal to make it 2-1 to the czech with about 15 minutes and stoppage left..

Right down the middle, Guillen. Siddown.

There's an extremely busy man raising three kids who seems to do his best to advance the discussion every day.

234 How about Lucille III?

GOLDEN GOD!

Hammered!

Am I the only one still watching the game? A single by DeWitt and a homer by Martin. 5-2 Tigers with no one out in the 9th.

242
I'm still around. Tiger doesn't tee off for over an hour.

242 I'm still watching soccer.

Time to punish Todd Jones.

Tiger tees off right now as I'm typing this.

243 - While the Tigers have already teed off.

(Tee-hee.)

Now Todd Jones is coming in with Loney singling.

242 Watching soccer but it's almost over.

244
Just can't get enough of those Swiss, eh?

207.

Such games involve higher scores as well I'd imagine.

I'm mad at soccer today so I'm refusing to watch it.

246
Haha! Thanks. I would have missed 6-7 holes or so.

Tying run comes to the plate!

Wow, dare I have some hope?

There's already been a 65 scored today at Torrey Pines.

249 I'm in Switzerland this week. It's hard to miss. It's on at least 3 channels and on in every restaurant and bar in town.

oooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........this is the match of the tournament, my goodness turkey have equalized

Did the Tigers announcer just say "pitcher's spot due up?" Am I confused? Isn't this Detroit?

255
And wasn't he once traded for Derek Lowe & Jason Varitek?

258
Martin's move from DH to C forfeits the DH spot.

no no no no no no no no no no.....turkey have scopred again...they go up 3-2 after a goal in the 87th and 88th

Come on Ethier!

258 - Dodgers lost their DH when Martin moved behind the plate.

Darn it, Andre check-swung at ball four, too.

Not a particularly good at bat for 3.5.

I have no idea who will play SS if this game continues.

I have to give props to Torre for this. Pinch hitting for Berroa means one of Young, DeWitt, or LaRoche will play SS in the 9th.

Thinking outside the box. It's back, baby!

Seriously? Wow, am I confused about the rules, apparently.

If the DH plays the field, the pitcher has to bat in the spot of the player replaced.

268
You can sub for a DH but the DH can't switch positions.

In other words, you can't double-switch the DH.

I believe you can in college baseball.

This hitting thing is fun!

Let the record show the Dodgers fortunes changed this game after LaRoche was inserted at 2B. :)

Nice at bat Kent!

Let's go Pee Wee!!

I really like this drain the bench, figure out defense later strategy.

So you can't double-switch the DH?

(Just kidding. I do get it now.)

273 - Tee hee.

Well, win or lose, it's good to see a little life to the offense for once.

And Pee Wee's up

Man oh man D.Y that pitch was right down the middle.

Torre would pinch hit just about everybody with the Yankees if he had to.

Rats. That was too shallow and to the wrong guy.

And it's all up to Juan Pierre. Sigh. (Though he does have a great BA with RISP. But...)

Please let us get to Laroche.

LaRoche is on deck.

C'mon. Base hit ties it.

You know the Tigers' announcers keep saying this is the first life on offense the Dodgers have shown all series, but, uh, didn't they score 7 runs yesterday? I mean it was all moot, but that's some life, anyway.

Do. Not. Swing.

280
No reason to send Kemp on that fly ball anyway, since his run wouldn't tie it.

Pierre better not swing until a full count.

Do. Not. Swing. Again.

Rule 1

Soooo close.

Once again.

Pierre is an idiot.

well, I've witnessed the most astonishing comebacks that I may have seen in Euro cup history...at least the Dodgers came close oh well..off the us open before basketball, what a sports day

Jeez, that was cruel.

CRUEL.

Only three and a half more seasons of Pierre, folks.

That was a nice game for a change.

Is it time to revive the ol' Slappy McPop nickname again?

No? Yeah, I guess that won't make anyone feel any better.

Just once, I would like to see Pierre end the game with anything but a pop up. A backward K would have offered more comfort, there.

294
May your dinner with your girlfriend end in a better fashion than today's game in Detroit.

Tiger likes to mix it up, with a double bogey to start.

Oh well. At least they showed some signs of life.

I feel like Torre managed that game overall how I would've, even bringing in Park for Kershaw after the ill timed rain delay was the only move to make. Alas it didn't work out. But I liked all the subs late in the game. Some life was shown. Another loss. But there's some signs of life after a little in-game CPR late.

299 Hee, thanks. She'd have to shove a plate of food in my face or I'd have to at least forget my wallet to equal that one.

Another positive out of today's game was Kershaw. Keep it up, kid.

On my version of Gameday, Jeff Kent has revealed his split personality.

He's batting at the same time he's on first.

A split personality would explain a lot.

But Pierre has a great BA with RISP! That can't happen. Why is it still not surprising that it did? Take a pitch, Juan, or get the ball down on the ground. Sigh. Okay, I'm done.

You take the good, you take the bad, and there you have... the Facts of Life theme song.

Peace.

I was extremely impressed with today's comeback. Until I saw terrible discipline to end the game by a guy swinging for the fences when he can't come close to the fence.

Oh btw, this is off subject, but bad news for at least the two of you who emailed me with interest in going to one of the Giants-Dodgers games here in SF with me. Looks like I unfortunately have to now be down in Sta Barbara for a family event on that July 4th weekend so can't do it after all. :-( Unless something changes. Looks like tix are still available via Stubhub and craigslist if anyone is interested in organizing. Would've been fun.

And, er, on a related note, does anyone know anyone who may be driving down from the Bay Area to Sta Barbara that weekend? Heh.

On either subject, feel free to email me underdog8 at gmail dot com.

304 And as that appeared on Gameday, the game was already over.

Memo to Gameday programmers: you have work to do, it appears.

Pierre is 5th in the NL in GB/FB ratio....you could argue he should be first, I suppose, but still: he knows that his fly balls are worthless...

Probably won't compare to the Euro games today, but the US-Barbados World Cup qualifier is now on ESPN2.

Left early and came back for the bad news, even though the boys made it close in the 9th. But a question I asked earlier, if answered I apologize, but if you are going to rest Kent today, and you just brought up LaRoche who has pop in his bat, why not try him at 2nd to start the game? Or if you think he is that weak defensively, why not try Young?

Am glad we are showing life, but any ground we could be making up is being lost by the poor offense and both the Giants and the Padres even though they are not playing great they are making up ground.

The game isn't over on Gameday or Yahoo. I still have hope! I still believe!

David DeJesus hits a grand slam off of Micah Owings 6-0 Royals top 4.

309 - He's also top-10 in LD%.

312 - Yahoo also shows the Yankees beating the Astros 26-0. That can't be right, can it?

Oh, God, ESPN is gonna be INSUFFERABLE if the Yankees score 26.

Pierre is having A Very Solid Season.

Robinson Cano doing some damage today, according to Yahoo :)

Top 3rd: NY Yankees
- R. Cano walked, H. Matsui scored, A. Rodriguez to third, J. Giambi to second
- R. Cano singled to shallow left, J. Giambi and A. Rodriguez scored, J. Posada to third
Top 6th: NY Yankees
- R. Cano singled to right, R. Cano and C. Wang scored, J. Damon to third
- R. Cano singled to center, J. Damon scored, D. Jeter to second
- R. Cano homered to deep left center, D. Jeter and H. Matsui scored
- R. Cano homered to deep left center, J. Giambi scored
Top 8th: NY Yankees
- R. Cano walked, A. Rodriguez scored, C. Moeller to third, J. Posada to second
- R. Cano grounded into fielder's choice, C. Moeller scored, J. Posada to third, R. Cano out at second

Wow, Barbados is really bad.

The US looks very good, but I'm sure it's easier when you're not playing Argentina, and are playing Barbados. 2-zip still early in the 1st half.

233
So I believe this is coming down to the age old problem of who has more rights? The people who are annoying others or the people are annoyed.

What I find dismaying, and I'm being presumptuous speaking for bhsportsguy, but the two of us are generally just trying to be agreeable and just wanting to talk about the game and other things going on with the Dodgers.

But if we try to speak up with an opinion. And God forbid if it's not an opinion that does not involve Juan Pierre being released or Ned Colletti getting fired, we get about 10 people shouting back at us about how those two events need to be done.

When the Dodgers are losing, it doesn't pay to be agreeable. You have to be shrill. And repetitive. Or else, people like me get the impression that their opinion is not welcome.

312 By the way, is Arizona using a DH?

319
Arizona is at home so they aren't.

320 Nuts. I would, just once, like to see Arizona waive the DH rule when Owings is on the mound.

314/315 - Halve that score and you'll have the right one.

3-zip US over the Resort Island at halftime.

And, hey, at least Az is losing. Crazy to think the Dodgers are still within shouting distance.

Have a night, all!

From Diamond:

Chin-lung Hu was placed on the disabled list at Class AAA Las Vegas with a right eye problem. He was complaining of vision problems and will see a specialist in Las Vegas. Eye problems are not new to Hu, who complained of a blurred vision in the same eye during the 2006 season when he also struggled offensively

I wonder if he had the vision problems while with the big club. That would certainly explain part of his struggles.

(Oh, and if the scores hold up, the Rockies will be the only NL Worst team to win today. Wheee!)

323 - I know it's not an injury per se, but once again, why do players not report any issues until so late in the game, as it were?

If that was part of the reason for his offense struggles it would explain it and also make you wonder...

Today marked the 5th time this season the Dodgers were swept in a 3 game series. Anyone know the Dodger record?

The good news is the Dodgers do not have any more scheduled trips to Atlanta, Chicago or Detroit on the 2008 calendar, nor do they play the Astros at home.

They do however have to travel to Houston and have two trips scheduled in Arizona later this year.

323

Our whole organization has been bitten by the injury bug. Josh Bell just had season ending knee surgery.

323

Our whole organization has been bitten by the injury bug. Josh Bell just had season ending knee surgery.

The 1992 Dodgers were swept in 10 3-game series and 2 2-game series.

329 Thank You Bob. Half way there in only 69 games. For the 3 gamers of course.

The 1992 Dodgers lost out on some potential 3-game sweeps because of certain events in the city of Los Angeles causing some series to be combined.

Oh, man. It's gonna be a looooong summer.

332 Either that or the Dodgers will turn it around and start winning ball games.

318
There's a reason I think of Rule 12 as "Bob's Rule".

334
Have I ever made this complaint before?

Does anybody have any feelings as to whether any of our minor leaguers have warranted a promotion (not to the big club necessarily) this year? I wouldn't mind seeing Lambo moved up, but his K rate seems rather Kemp like so that may not be best.

Its hard to root for Tiger when NBC's announcers are cheering him on also.

337
Cheering him on, or pointing out his greatness?

Even with his knee clearly affecting him this weekend, he is 2nd in driving distance.

Its more pointing out others weaknesses and attributing them directly due to playing with Tiger.

It is possible players miss shots, and it has nothing to do with Tiger.

The "Tiger making the competition melt" stuff is overboard.

335
I feel like you've displayed this sentiment (people like me get the impression that their opinion is not welcome) before.

That's not a criticism, by the way.

340
I rarely have an opinion is what it makes it worse.

341
No comprendo...

I just thought people were overly mean-spirited and hateful. And all people did was repeat the same refrain over and over and over.

The discussion today did not seem to focus of the word "thoughts." It just focused on "hate."

You'll get that over a 162 game season.
There arent many unique "thoughts" to be expressed every single day.

I guess the other alternative is to just not post, for fear of the "complaining about the complainers" faction.

If we're only allowed original happy thoughts, i suspect the game threads will be about 100 comments max each game.

Bastardo wins on Father's Day! 5 shutout innings and 6ks as Inland Empire wins over Stockton 7 to 0.

Hard to root for Rocco with that belt buckle. He takes the lead through 14 (Tiger is almost through 13).

345
Awesome. Does that qualify as ironic?

Hard to root for Rocco with that belt buckle

And here I thought it was endearing.

345 -- Bastardo pitched last night -- that was last night's game.

I guess some people like 200 repetitious thoughts of saying how Ned Colletti is. Perhaps it's an integral part of everybody's day.

I know it is for one person.

It must be a wonderful life to lead.

343 I sincerely doubt anyone at DT "hates" any player or even anyone in Dodger management. They may possibly be disenchanted with certain players/coaches/management actions, but we are all still Dodger people. We live to agree to disagree. Losing is a depressing situation which, as with the players, brings out the frustrations of the fans. Winning would be the best medication for all concerned.

Seeing Peter Gammons play guitar and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" is very jarring for some reason. Pretty cool though.

344 - Not posting is in fact an alternative. It's not that you're only allowed happy thoughts. I think that's abundantly clear.

Just imagine how tiresome it would be to go to a game with a group of people and hear the same complaints time and time again. It gets old. Given that, I feel this is a pretty permissive forum. Did the anti-Colletti view really not get enough airtime today before someone questioned whether enough had been said?

I dislike Juan Pierre in the lineup every single game. Every single game. Yet somehow, I find other things to talk about.

323

I wonder if all of the reporting of Dodger players having injuries but trying to battle through them, while not going on the DL or taking time off is reflective of Dodger management? Also wonder if this exists with other teams as well.

Jon, on a number of occasions has reported on the fact that so many Dodger players have tried to play through injuries and ultimately hurt themselves more and also hurt the team in the long run. The one other thing that I have noticed on the injury front which seems unique to the Dodgers as say compared to the A's or the Giants, in the past two years anytime a Dodger went on the DL, about a third of the way through you would read..the player should be back as scheduled and then it seems when he should be coming off the DL, there is a set back or a problem and the time seems to extend quite a bit. Nomar, Furcal and Kent last year are easy examples come to mind immediately.

Any thoughts on other teams? In fairness to the Dodgers Conte was brought in to help the Dodgers prevent injuries, he did seem to do a good job with the Giants, with the exception of Ray Durham and is annual and bi-annual pulled hamstrings!

I feel I contributed to this annoying discussion today and for that I apologize.

My points are more about the last 20 years and therefore are not directed at Colletti himself, nor are they directed at Pierre as he is just one of many veterans.

Jon your point about going to the game with a group that complains all the time getting old is valid. Again, I apologoze and will back off my point as it has been beaten to death by now.

I do find your point rather ironic though in that I feel much the same way about the Dodgers. Imagine going into the season each year and getting the same results every year, for 20 years. It too gets old.

But then I guess we keep going to the game with the same group, just as we keep watching the Dodgers every year.

Losing is a disease...as contagious as polio...as contagious as syphilis...as contagious as the bubonic plague...attacking one, but affecting all.

Imagine you're on a ship at sea. Rocking, gently rocking...

315.

He is also a Good Clubhouse Guy, a Professional Hitter, and he Knows How To Play The Game.

I don't remember ever being able to hear the golfers talk to their caddies on TV before. It's kind of cool.

Rocco's in at 1-under. Tiger and Westwood each need to birdie 18 to tie.

Mediate would be the oldest winner of any major, no?

360
He'd be the oldest winner of the US Open, and the oldest first-time winner of a major.

But at the very least, I'm pretty sure Jack was older when he won the Masters in 1986.

Nicklaus was 46 years, (almost) 3 months old when he won the 1986 Masters.

Rocco is 45 years, (almost) 6 months old today.

He's about 3 months older than Hale Irwin when he won the US Open in 1990.

362
Check that, Rocco is about 6 months older than 1990 Irwin.

Hell of an approach shot for Tiger. That's still a tough, tough putt to tie.

Westwood's got a tough putt too.

I usually don't have that much to add to discussions. But I do find it annoying when I see what seems like an endless stream of complaints about Colletti and Pierre on a discussion thread. There's only so much venting I can bear to read.

Down to 1 putt.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shocker.

Made it by THAT much!

I was ready to type the following line:

Moose, Rocco, help the judge find the US Open Trophy!

Any other player, and that putt lips out. But God likes Tiger, a lot.

I might have to go to the course tomorrow.

I wonder what happens to all the people who scheduled tee times for tomorrow morning. Sucks for them.

Tiger pulled out the Happy Gilmour celebration.

Kind of an incongruous quote from the ever likable Rocco Mediate: "Unbelievable! I knew he would make it."

Well, was it believable or unbelievable??? :)

373
Everything except riding the bull.

372 I'm pretty sure they were not taking reservations for tomorrow.

A one-legged Tiger is still the best golfer in the world.

Good storyline tomorrow:

Mediate's age vs Tiger's bad knee.

374 How about the quote where he said "it doesn't make sense to root against your competitor"? That's really saying something and is a heck of way to be. The right way some might say.

Makes you wonder about those Dodger fans who continue to relish that the D-backs continue to lose depite the Dodgers 31-38 record.

I've always thought you wanted to win playing your best while your competitor was playing their best. Not wanting to win because your competitor stinks as bad as you do.

At times like this, I try to focus on the little bright spots, like Pew Wee starting to get some playing time, LaRoche getting in a 2nd, and the Minatour. Even with the Penny problem and unwarranted use of Proctor, the pitching seems strong and I can see the potential for reeling off some wins, particulalry if Torre starts making better use of Kuo. The bats are cool too often and when we do put runs of the board it is usually associated with a less than stellar pitching performance. I assume that these things will even out a bit. You are never as bad as you look and these kids are on the upswing. Thanks goodness the Snakes aren't running away with it. I just keep my fingers crossed that Ned doesn't try to doing anything to "save" the season.

376
I thought the Monday following a tournament was a coveted tee time. At least it has been the Monday after the Buick Invitational.

I don't care about the repetitious griping so much as the fact that it's stylistically repetitious, too. Always earnest, usually smug. A little effort in that department could go a long way. The proudest moment of my name-calling career was when I accused Colletti of having been born with a tail.

The Tiger/Earl Woods Nike commercial is pretty sweet.

380
If the Buick Invitational has a playoff, it takes place right after the round. Unless I'm mistaken, the US Open is the only tournament (major or otherwise) that has players return the following day for the playoff.

383
That's a good point. They probably had Monday cleared.

I love the 18-hole playoff.

382 I look forward to the one about how Earl taught his son to act like a spoiled six year old on the course.

How much is a round now at Torrey Pines? I played it a few times in the 1970s and it was $25 or something like that.

378 There's a difference though, in that baseball is a zero-sum game while in golf both players are competing against the course (i.e. themselves). But it is nice to hear quotes like that.

Doesn't Loney's ninth-inning hit give him a decent streak now?

386
It's between $20 and $49, depending on time, not including cart.

Carts are $30, plus I believe there's a one-time fee of $26 or $37 to register, depending on your residency.

388
It would be at 14 games were it not for an unsuccessful pinch-hitting attempt Wednesday night. So he's only at 4.

378 - I have enough relish to include not only the Snakes, but the Giants, Padres and Rockies as well.

I hear Tim Donaghy is going to be the guest head ref for the US Open playoff :-)

391 I guess that's right. If you are not good enough to be 95-67, better to root for everyone else to be 70-92.

Sad commentary on sports today. True, but sad.

I guess Mediate should have been out there screaming Noonan every 3 seconds before Tiger putted on 18.

Wouldn't that have been great?

393 Wishing that my least favorite teams lose is a bad thing?

379 True. On top of everything else, there's been a lot of bad luck. So much so, I feel like the most appropriate response to this schneid is to laugh sympathetically. How could things be going worse? And really is blaming Colletti at this point even accurate? The team he assembled is missing some key pieces. To look at one notorious player, Juan Pierre was supposed to be a part-timer this season, and never the lead-off hitter. You could blame Colletti for injuries on the theory that any player who's older than another player is, by definition, a greater injury risk. But it still tends to work out that the team with the fewest key injuries goes the farthest, regardless of age.

393 - If it makes you feels better, I have always wanted the Giants to lose since I started following baseball back in the day. I would have wished the same for the others, but they didn't exist at the time. My guess is there are probably a lot less people like me today than there were back then. So, cheer, up things are getting better. ;-)

393 Guess that rules me out of watching the NFL.

Since LA was abandoned, my rooting interest has changed from year to year. I give the Giants and Chargers first dibs, but if they fall behind, I'm just as likely to root for the Saints as the Seahawks. I tend to root for individual players, I guess.

However, my root-againsts endure: the Cowboys, the Vikings and the Raiders. If they lose, I feel good.

As depressing as our major league club is these days, how about a minor leaguers update? I just went through all the teams' individual stats and there are a lot of disappointments (except Carlos Santana), but it would still be nice to have some scouting reports or something.

Nate and/or Canuck as guest posters?

Happy fathers day to one & all

I read earlier that Penny was having an MRI done in LA I think he will be fine & its not like the snakes are running away with this thing... I heard on todays broadcast that McDonald is in line to come & help the big club, that's pretty encouraging, he or Stultsy.

Hope all of the Daddys had as pleasent a Father's Day as I did (I got a #27 Kemp jersey today).

Dodger Love! The Boys in Blue will continue to battle and I'll be rooting for them.

396 Don't get me wrong. I understand not liking a team and therefore not wanting them to win. I don't like Notre Dame.

My point is more being happy Arizona is losing therefore keeping LA somewhat in the race. For me I wouldn't want the Dodgers to make the playoffs at say 82-80, just as I wouldn't want the NFL team I root for to still go to the playoffs if they have a 5-8 record.

I think it cheapens the sport. For example, in the 80's, the Lakers needed a whole team to try and win the championship. In the late 90's early 2000's they only needed 2 players (Shaq & Kobe). Now to have a shot, they only need one (Kobe) just as Cleveland needed only 1 last year (Lebron).

In the 70's the Dodgers or Reds needed a whole team to go to the World Series. Now LA has maybe 1 All star, and fans are still hoping they can win the whole thing?

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad thing? I guess attendance and ratings suggest I am. Because fans seem to love it!

Question for the DT masses (and I'd like an opinion from Bob, who needs to explain his blatant jinxing of the Czechs. But that is for another comment.)

Being fairly reasonable (no ridiculous trades or DFA's), what would you do to improve the anemic Dodger offense?

Just returned from the Saturday game against the Tigers.

I got to see LA score 7 runs!!!

I got to see Takashi Saito finish out the game!!!

Oh, yeah. Sure the Tigers scored 12, but that's beside the point.

A few things became evident:

1. Penny needs to be on the DL. Score another one for a player not admitting an injury, playing like crap, the Dodger training staff being powerless or clueless, and overall a total cluster.

2. Mark Sweeney, Angel Berroa, and Scott Proctor need to be released post haste. They add nothing to this team.

3. Juan Pierre does not have to start and lead off EVERY day. Keep him around if we must, but he is only making things worse in the leadoff slot.

4. Ned Colletti must be fired now. We are coming up to a HUGE month for the Dodgers. It could easily be time to be sellers in July, and we need a GM that has a clue when it comes to trades. Whether it's trading off veterans or by some surprise we turn things around and want to add players, we need a GM with a clue, and Colletti clearly does not. We can undoubtedly be contenders in 2009 with the right changes. Ned Colletti is not the man to do it.

From Diamond's blog...

Joe Torre called Clayton Kershaw's performance the best of his career. Kershaw attributed it to making mechanical adjustments on his delivery after looking over film from spring training with pitching coach Rick Honeycutt. Kershaw also threw more sliders during this game.

Huh? Kershaw has a slider?

Re: 405

Could it be he's confusing the change-up with a slider? Kershaw has been working on that, right?

WWSH

406

I'm going to rewatch his start.

402

You wouldn't want the Dodgers to make the playoffs at 82-80? I wonder what Cardinal fans thought when their team went 83-78 in 2006. They only made the playoffs and won the World Series. I think i would be pretty delighted with that outcome. Why does the record matter if the team makes the playoffs? Everybody starts with a clean slate, and if that cheapens the sport, then I dont know why you follow a team at all. The goal is to make the playoffs, and making the playoffs with any record is not "cheap".

As for the football analogy, it would be tough for a 5-8 team to make the playoffs, as they'd by missing 3 games from their schedule.

Also the notion that the Lakers are a 1 man team is silly. Tonight was pretty much exhibit A that they aren't. Those Shaw and Kobe teams weren't 2 man teams, either. Remember Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, or Rick Fox? No, they arent HOF's like the complementary players of the 80's, but you dont need star role guys when you have the 2 best players in the game on the same team.

408. Brian Shaw?

408

oops, obviously Shaq and Kobe. But, Shaw was key also! Love B-Shaw.

410
UCSB's finest.

403 - With what they have got, if I were king:

Against Righty

Pew Wee LF
Golden God C
3.5 RF
Loney 1b
La Roche 2b
Bison CF
Solution 3b
Wesley Sr./Nomar SS

Against lefty

JP LF
Pee Wee RF
Golden God C
Andy 2b
Bison CF
Loney 1b
Solution 3b
Wesley SR./Nomar SS

410
Without Shaw's 4th quarter against Portland, the threepeat train could have been derailed before it started!

And he did call bank! :)

NPUT