Yes, I suppose we should all prepare for the worst at this point.

An historic run is possible. Highly improbable, close to impossible... but possible. So I keep faith.

I'm going to accentuate the positive,
eliminate the negative,
latch on to the affirmative and
... hope the team ERA lowers while the team OBP rises.

Lyrics have never been my thing.

Here's hoping Jon and all the other dads had a great Father's Day...

That's not bad at all for all-time worst start.

Part of me sees hope with yesterday's seven runs and today's rally, but with Pierre, Maza, Berroa and Sweeney playing prominent roles while the core develops, I find myself resigned to next year.

an ambidextrous pitcher? I didn't think this was possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U2xkHOTvvw&feature=related

6
This guy helped answer a question my friend and I have been talking about for years.

Congrats also to Berroa and his family for having a kid yesterday. I wonder if the folks at Guiness come calling for the "oldest father" record.

7
The switch hitter conundrum? Was that what your question was about?

I never really thought about that until I saw it in that video.

9
Just if we would see an ambidextrous pitcher. We then theorized that they should come up with a wind-up that would allow the pitcher to hide which arm he was gonna throw the ball with.

On championship baseball teams the starters all have good years and key players will have career years. This Dodgers team has so many things that have gone wrong with injuries. The team can go 83-79 by winning 52 of the remaining 93 regular season games, a .559 winning percentage of the remaining games. I hope that the Dodgers do this, but it would be a tremendous turn around over what the team has been able to produce so far. Right now the Dodgers need a shortstop ...

10
He's a pretty cool story. Man, that would be an awkward windup if he were to hide with hand he's throwing from. :)

He'd probably give up a ton of SB.

In the video, he said they added a rule for when switch-hitters bat, whatever hand he starts throwing with is his throwing hand for that entire batter's AB.

12
Yeah, that rule takes the fun out of it.

The earlier the team falls out, the less likely a panic move is made in the hopes of salvaging the season. Kazmir for Victor Zambrano, anyone?

Kill it. Kill it with fire. Now.

Pat Venditte, the ambidextrous pitcher mentioned in earlier comments, was drafted by the evil empire in the 20th round.

He's a Yankee is what I meant.

14 What are you doing up this late on a school night? :)

And yeah, I'm the "I agree with Greg Brock" echo chamber. The second--I mean the second--we start hearing rumors of trading youngsters for vets that can help us climb back into the race, we need to take Greg's advice. Use a flamethrower, people.

6 - anyone think someone would take a flyer on him in the draft?

2 - I always believe my team can come back until they are mathematically eliminated. I have been known to give up on a team on occasion, but there's always a little voice in the back of my head saying, "It ain't over 'til it's over."

I think a lot of us got caught up in the Torre-hype, subconsciously. Like the Lakers bring back Jackson, the only reason a team would hire one of these guys is because they thought they were close to a title. We should have known better, the Dodgers are young at so may positions. They're old are all the others. The only guys realistically in their primes are Furcal (hurt) and Penny (who is either hurt or has run headlong into the proverbial wall). This team has the potential to be very good for a very long time, but given the front office's impatience, there's a chance they'll be doing it for other teams. So we all wanted to see them pull some baseball magic out of where ever they keep baseball magic and make a deep run into the playoffs.

Then again, this is the franchise that gave us the phrase, "Wait 'til next year!"

14
Kershaw for Todd Wellemyer! I can't wait!

15 I have 60 research papers to read and two finals to write. By Wednesday :-(

15 You guys done yet, SB?

I predicted 87 wins (I think--can't quite remember) and I'm sticking to it.

Maybe we can finish the season with a chance to draft Alex White next year...again.

I still think this team finishes above .500. Their Pythagorean record is only a game under .500, and the only players who are playing well above what should be expected from them are a couple of relief pitchers.

This is a way better team than the 2005 one. Way, way better than 1992. Probably not a playoff team, but I think there will be much better days ahead.

It still feels early to me. I will worry when it comes near the trade deadline and we have to figure out if we are buyers, sellers, or neither.

23 -- Hey, Trainwreck, have you ordered Intelligence yet?

24
I was probably going to look into buying it this week. I just got Trailer Park Boys Season 7 today, so I can tell you my opinion in a couple of days.

I actually saw a couple episodes at my friends, but all I can remember is Sebastian Bach.

I must admit that I have heard the build up for the new Conky episode and the original is my favorite, so I have high hopes.

26 -- Did you look into the availability of getting Ken Finkleman stuff that you haven't seen through the torrents? I talked to a friend of mine and he seems willing to copy some stuff for you.

27
I could not find it as of yet, but I will continue to look. If you can get copies, I would greatly appreciate it, but I do not want to inconvenience you or your friend.

28 -- It sounded like he would have no problem doing the copying as long as I didn't expect too much at one time, so I was thinking every few months I would get him to copy one show. That shouldn't burden him. Now, do you have any preferences about what you would want first? You've seen the three seasons of The Newsroom plus the Newsroom movie, right? Have you seen anything else? Have you seen Finkleman's Married Life?

28
I have only seen stuff involving the Newsroom.
I am kind of embarrassed to ask, because that would be so kind of him to copy and send stuff to a random person. So, if he it is no trouble, I would sincerely appreciate it.

29
Obviously.

Not a problem. How much have you read about Finkleman's non-Newsroom work? I guess we can go in chronological order, and that would mean starting with Married Life, which aired before The Newsroom, and in fact, aired on American TV long before it showed up in Canada.

32
Do not really know anything other than he did a lot of experimental film after the Newsroom.

From the last thread:

398. overkill94 2008-06-15 19:08:53
... how about a minor leaguers update? ...

ToyCannon contributes a nice writeup on minor leaguers weekly over at True Blue LA.

33 -- Okay, Finkleman's first TV series was Married Life. It was a four-episode satire on reality TV that aired on America's Comedy Central in 1995, BEFORE reality TV really became big. The Newsroom started in Canada in 1996. Married Life didn't get a Canadian debut until 1998 or so, and then it aired not as a four-episode series but as a movie, as the four episodes were edited together. That is the version of Married Life I have on video, so that will be the first thing I ask my friend to copy. I won't be seeing my friend in person for a while but when I do I will give him my video. It will be some time before you get your disc, but you will get it eventually, and after that we can see about getting more stuff copied. When I have a disc to mail to you, I will ask for your mailing address, which you can send via e-mail with your real name. Rather than publish my e-mail here, which may not be wise, just e-mail Jon and ask for my e-mail address. He has it. Okay, I am going to bed soon, so is there anything else? Any last questions for the night?

The ambidextrous pitcher has been accomplished in the major leagues before (briefly) by Greg Harris the elder. Check out his throwing side attribution:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/harrigr01.shtml

This occurred in the penultimate game of his career. There is no mention of it in the b-r boxscore, but it occurred in the top of the ninth. Regularly a RHP, Harris pitched lefty to the middle two batters.

Greg Harris replaces Willie Fraser pitching and batting 1st
R Sanders - Groundout: SS-1B
H Morris - Walk
E Taubensee - Groundout: C-1B; Morris to 2B
B Boone - Groundout: P-1B (Short 1B Line)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MON/MON199509280.shtml

35
None, just want to thank you and your friend and I sincerely really appreciate it. Thank you, very much.

0 I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see Berroa and Maza.
I see bad times today.

Dont go around LaRoche,
Well, he's bound to wound a coach,
Theres a bad moon on the rise.

I hear hurricanes ablowing.
I know Pierre is batting soon.
I fear rivers over flowing.
I hear the voice of Steiner too.

Chorus
All right!

Hope you got your things together.
Hope you are quite prepared to die.
Looks like were in for nasty weather.
Penny is taken for an MRI.

Jon, shouldn't that 1963 team be credited with going 64 and 33?

Stan from Tacoma

depressing, at least all of you hoping for colletti's head, the guiltine is being sharpened.

I was thinking last night that Pennys option wont get picked up from the Dodgers with his shoulder problem & lack of comment towards a healthier life style, but that's just me, what do you guys think? (people in the know)

41 We discussed getting rid of Penny yesterday, and you can't because that would involve trusting three of the Kershaw/McDonald/Schmidt/Kuo crew.

That's in the very likely event we get outbid by the Yankees for Sabathia.

Jon,

I finally watched "Aliens in America". I really enjoyed it; thanks for the recommendation.

39 - LOL

Famous young communist:

http://tinyurl.com/579zpk

38 - LOL, too!

FWIW, I think this is an 85-win team.

I think it was Eric Stephens that pointed out that Brad Penny's option year is for either $8.75M or $9.25M, depending on the source, with a $2M buyout, making the net cost to renew Penny approximately $7M. I would point out that this is about the same as the contract commitment Colletti picked up when he claimed Esteban Loaiza. If Penny's health woes are not overly serious (e.g., no reconstructive surgery), I would think renewing him at 4th starter money makes sense.

48
Hard to imagine a GM that would be willing to pay $7 million/year for Loaiza, but not for Penny.

Well, maybe not that hard.

40 Once all the LA Times columnists are finished with LakerWatch 2008 theyre going to start noticing that the Dodgers are circling the drain. Curious to see who will be the scapegoats this year.

48
I now defer to the $9.25m figure from MLB4u.com, since it was reported yesterday in the LA Times that his option was indeed that amount.

Assuming he's reasonably healthy, I'd keep him for 2009. The Dodgers already found their Penny; it's time to pick him up.

50 Since Plaschke is such a moron, it will be the kids' fault. We all know what will happen after that.

heads or tails?

14 We might like to fall out of the race, but the NL West might not let us. On Jon's list, all the other Dodger teams with records like '08's finished way out: 6th, 8th, 7th, 4th. This year, we're second and nobody but us perverts are giving up on the season yet, just because of that. Sure, we're 6 1/2 games out and can't beat good teams or good pitching, or even so-so teams or pitchers who've never been good before; but there's still hope!

The entombed optimist in me says if there's ever going to be a team that can turn it around on a dime, it would be a team like this one, where a couple of the newer guys could go on a Beltre-like tear, starting this month; where Kershaw and Billingsley could step up and become the dual aces they are close to being already; and where Furcal and Jones could come roaring back from their injuries to have tremendous second halfs.

But there are a few management mental blocks that will likely assure these even if these things happen, the effect will be diluted because we'll be giving too many games away by relying on...the usual suspects.

I've been catching up on topics/commentary since Friday's game thread and I must say that Jon's piece written after the Scully/Wooden event and the subsequent comments are some of the most moving, inspirational and comforting (even with the tears I shed) items I've seen in some time. (I haven't viewed the event yet, but it is on my DVR - perhaps tonight.)

I commend Zak, dzzrtRatt, BlueMamma, et al., for the courage they displayed in facing their adversities and in sharing them openly with us, and Jon and others for be willing to discuss the fears that they face. Whether we have already been confronted such challenges and fears or will in the future, you have all encouraged us with the knowledge the fears we share are rational, that they can be faced, that adversities can be weathered, that we can endure. Coincidentally, my mother was hospitalized Friday night - not life-threatening, pneumonia, and due to be discharged today - so I received my own little reminder about mortality and fear, so reading those comments late last night and this morning was quite timely.

Thank you all, and my best thoughts and wishes to all of you in your challenges.

54 Who (in Dodger blue) is Keyser Soze?

54 Yeah just wait until Nomar and Jones are back in the lineup every day. Guess it couldn't get any worse tho, can it?

56
Gary Bennett

Happy Monday all. Nice to see everyone is as happy and optimistic as usual.

Fascinating story on Ping-Pong Diplomacy - please don't rule 5 it.

http://tinyurl.com/3p4r8h

Rocco's got a 1 shot lead after 3 holes.

Friday night, took my Grandpa to Scully/Wooden. Sitting in Mezzanine, upper level, and right before the show started, a lady that works at Nokia came up to me and asked if we wanted to sit in the front row. I asked why, and she said "They told me to go find the first person I see with a Dodger hat and get them in the front row." We went from $25.00 seats to $2500.00(face on the new ticket) seats sitting 10 feet from the legends. It was a special night.

62
Congrats! I really hope they replay this so non Prime Ticket viewers can watch.

63 - They still haven't announced any plans to reverse their intention about not re-airing it, or even selling it as a DVD as far as I know, but I guess one can hold out hope.

61 I just learned I can watch it live on ESPN360. Thank you, Verizon!

64
I'd settle for watching video of the event from bhsportsguy's cell phone. :)

If Kuo takes over Penny's rotation spot, here are the current starters' numbers:

Billingsley - 117 ERA+, 3.63 FIP
Kuroda - 107 ERA+, 4.18 FIP
Lowe - 108 ERA+, 3.55 FIP
Kuo - 216 ERA+, 2.19 FIP
Kershaw - 116 ERA+, 4.27 FIP

That's a positive.

RE: Penny, the Dodgers spent 8 mill on Wolf, so it's a safe assumption he'll be back.

64 Are you saying they have no intention of re-airing it?

69 - They have said all along they had no intention to re-air it or sell it. Now, they can always change their minds, but that's the current status.

Considering this has been by far Kuo's best season I don't think I would change the way he is being used. I'm no Torre fan, but I think he has using Kuo sparingly right on.

Tiger has won three straight holes to take a two-shot lead.

72
Jinx!

72 - What else is new?

70 I wonder if Scully/Wooden had anything to do with that decision. They are both so humble.

Hey everyone,

I think I made the point before that this is a really really young team the Dodgers have.

and

If Ned Colletti hasn't given up on the youngsters by now, what makes anyone think he will?

and

As much as I'd enjoy Ned getting re-assigned, it probably isn't a wise decision to make at the end of 2008.

and

Is it really a wise move to re-sign Penny? I think he's starting to break down, and there's plenty of options to replace him in the off season.

I knew Penny was hurt once I started seeing his Earned runs pile up like an exponential graph. It almost always happens...

I unintentionally pulled a Plaschke. I'd like to see Bill Plaschke insert "ands" between his paragraphs to add flavor.

75 - I think it was to goose ticket sales.

77
But the Times is trying to save money and probably won't spring for the bold.

76 - As much as I'd enjoy Ned getting re-assigned, it probably isn't a wise decision to make at the end of 2008.

Firing Ned and replacing him with Kim Ng at the end of '08 (if not sooner) sounds like a fabulous idea to me.

Exercising Penny's option is a foregone conclusion unless he has Tommy John or some other kind of surgery that is guaranteed to keep him out for all of 2009. It's really a waste of time to even discuss it, I think, because it's a very easy decision for the Dodgers, no matter how upset you may be at Penny at this particular moment.

Man, the Juice blog went all crazy. Er, they should space out their posts a bit more.

82
The Juice Blog is on itself.

82 Scroll down a bit to the beginning of the day, where they explain that it's a one-time experiment.

I do believe this is the first time The Griddle has ever been relegated to 15th position in "Hot From the Toaster."

84

Um, how about a NSFW warning on that?

man that is a fine picture... who are they?

84 - Ah, thanks. Took me awhile to scroll down that far but found it. Deadspin homage, got it.

85

I meant on the Juice blog... I'm a little confused about that Juice blog, I am. First an NSFW photo, then some random comments... I'll get to the bottom of this (no pun intended).

62- A friend of mine is a bodyguard for all sorts of big musicians and bands. A lot of these artists hold back from selling the front row so that security can handpick who is up there. It's partly for safety issues, but I know that my friend goes way up to the nosebleeds and looks for fans with the hat and t-shirt and concert poster (etc.) and upgrades those folks. It's a good way to give real fans a thrill of a lifetime, and it's one of the coolest practices I can think of.

77 Needs to be more bitter if you want to really pull a Plaschke.

The Juice overflow on the sidebar (will it be sticky later or will Ken be wiping it down with a bar rag periodically?) has me wondering about the "Hot from the Toaster" algorithm. I had thought it was the newest topic from each blog, but if one blog had more than one topic newer than all the rest of the blog, that blog would have more than one "Hot" topic. Clearly this is not correct.

62 , 88 Bruce Springsteen is famous for this; I believe it was he who started the practice, which is now fairly commonplace. He sets aside the first two rows, and if you have really bad nosebleed seats and you're there an hour or two before showtime, chances are you'll be approached by the infamous "Men in Black" and have your seats upgraded.

I was fortunate enough to have this happen once. I ended up in the center seat in Row 1 -- literally the closest person in the arena to Bruce, closer even than Clarence Clemons and Little Steven.

Looks like Rocco's losing it.
Down 3 shots starting the back 9.

90 It seems to be a somewhat fancy algorithm. New posts all show up, even if they're from the same blog. But if the posts are older than a day or two, only the latest from each blog is shown.

91 - It happened to me for my 30th birthday at the Wiltern. Ghost of Tom Joad acoustic tour. Back row to second row.

94
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/richbreton/d/titles/SG_B.htm

95 - I guess it was my 28th birthday :)

Trading veterans for prospects (not the other way around) is the key to success. Of course it depends on the return, but it is a worthwhile gamble.

Lowe and Beimel (pending FA's) should be traded, without question. They're a good bet to fill some team's needs. Penny should also get shipped, IMO, but I'm probably in the minority. I'd even move Saito if the price was high enough.

97 - You still haven't addressed the issue of trading Penny at his lowest value.

"If the price was high enough" can apply to any proposed trade.

Wow Tiger's given his 3 shot lead all back.
Tied with 4 holes to play.

Does anyone else have a passionate hatred of the guy(s) that yell "GET IN THE HOLE!" every time certain golfers hit the ball?

97 Does this team need any more B prospects though? Right now, our problem is that outside of Russ and maybe Bills and Saito, we don't have any great players. The biggest thing that could kill us in the next few years is if all of our guys continue to be average without breaking out.

I can't believe it will happen, but if it does, we're hosed for a very long time. We should be making deals to prevent that, not encourage it by getting the type of players Lowe or Beimel would return.

100 I noticed that too. Very annoying.

I'd rather get the extra first round draft pick for losing Lowe after this season and get what we can out of him this season, then just trade him for middling prospects. Imho.

I think right now you're not in the minority in wanting to trade Penny, but, once again, he's not even tradeable right now with his shoulder problems and ineffectiveness. They'd need him to come back healthy and effective, first, before they can trade him for anything close to a fair return

oh...... WOW!!!!!!!

Did you see that bunker shot Tiger made?

104 Are you kidding me? The guy is unreal.

And Rocco takes the lead nonetheless.

Rocco had a great putt though to take the lead, so despite the bunker shot Tiger made, he falls behind.

Is this not the greatest 18 hole playoff yet?

107 It must be. I rarely watch golf but right now I'm shocked to find myself actually listening to it (XM). :)

Assuming he isn't seriously injured, Penny's value is not as low as people think.

If a team were to acquire him at the deadline, he has the upside of a middle rotation guy who throws in the mid 90s. If he doesn't pan out, then the team is on the hook for just a buyout. But if he pitches decently, they could excercise his option at a solid rate.

Basically, if the Dodgers plan on buying him out anyway, may as well get talent for him instead of getting nothing.

I never, ever watch golf. But I'm watching this.

109 Unless Penny's career is clearly over at the end of this season, we're not buying him out. We can't effectively replace him in 2009.

109 The Dodgers don't plan to buy him out. There is almost no situation in which I can see that happening.

i missed the tee shots on 16, where they at?

109
If what you say it true, then why would we trade him when we will need him in 2009? I think it will be a moot point. I bet he needs surgery and was putting off the pain because he wanted his option picked up and he knows if he undergoes surgery this may be his last big paycheck. Can't say I don't blame him for trying to pitch thru it.

110
I'm like Eric except I wish I could watch it.

Huzzah! Bill Bavasi finally fired!

112
Really, even if he has surgery?

Test Rocco for roids, he is playing insane on this back 9.

115 And the complete bonehead list shrinks to two...

heartbreak.

118

May I request a copy of "the complete bonehead list"?

Unfortunately, I can't put NedCo on the list. He gets points for not trading the entire farm for Texiera.

"Severe thunderstorms drenched historic Doubleday Field on Monday, forcing cancellation of the final Hall of Fame Game."

More jinx: My first view of today's golf resulted in Tiger missing a great putt by an inch.

what happens if tiger and rocco tie? Do they play another 18 tomorrow?

116 Like I said earlier, I think the option is an automatic pickup unless he has surgery which is guaranteed to keep him out for all of 2009.

But that probably won't happen. Even in the unlikely event he has, say, Tommy John next week, that would still put him on track to return by June or July 2009.

So Ive read rumors that Prince Fielder might be available this offseason because:

1. His resistance to signing a long term deal in brewtown.
2. The Brewers have Gamel and Laporta mashing in the minors and their best positions are 1b.

So would it be worth it to try and trade for Fielder while using Loney and other pieces to get the players the brewers want for Fielder.

The only reason I brought this up is because Fielder has the ability to hit 50 homeruns in a season and well...we don't have anyone that can do that.

123 Pistols at dawn.

125 I wouldn't be opposed to acquiring Fielder, as long as the Dodgers don't sign him to some sort of silly extension. His career as an effective player will likely be over by age 29-30.

125

Prince Vegetable? He will never hit 50 home runs again. After he switched to the Vegetarian Diet, he hasn't been the same.

The diet itself isn't the only reason, of course.

125 I don't think they'd want Loney if the plan is to move LaPorta back to 1B.

125 - Loney up to Seattle for Brandon Morrow, and flip DeWitt, Kershaw, and Morrow to Milwaukee for Prince?

anyone have any idea how long 18 is today?

Bill Bavasi has been fired.

http://tinyurl.com/66jgen

129 - Two separate moves...LA deals Loney to clear space and acquire assets for a different trade to get Prince.

Milwaukee needs 3B - I hear we have a few. And everyone needs pitching.

129

Loney wouldnt be traded for Fielder. He would be flipped to another team for pieces the Brewers want for Fielder.

130

We're not trading Kershaw.

135 Exactly. Kershaw, Billingsley and Martin form The Untouchables.

I'd give the thumbs-down to any deal involving Kershaw unless it's going to get us Pujols or Felix Hernandez or somebody like that.

It's looking like a sudden death playoff...

Argh, Kershaw for a Prince Fielder trade? No thanks. Pitchers like Kershaw don't grow on trees, or come along very often. Fielder does have much needed power, but I agree that it will decline. I wouldn't be averse to Fielder, but not with Kershaw being tossed in.

Who has more value? Morrow or Loney?

Wonder if Dan Evans will get a courtesy interview in Seattle?

I don't think I'd trade Kershaw for him either, just trying to figure out what would be a realistic package for him. Prince did just turn 24 about a month ago; any decline figures to be quite a few years off. If Kershaw isn't going in the deal, I'm not sure who the centerpiece is from a pitching standpoint. Seems to me 50-homer caliber guys won't come real cheap.

And Morrow's value will be determined by what the new GM decides to do with him...continue to waste him in the bullpen of the worst team in the majors, or send him down and get him starting.

140 - Or perhaps he puts in a good word for Kim Ng. A young female of Asian descent could be a good move for a rebuilding club that is PR-conscious in the Pacific NW.

Ok, just thinking out loud here.

For a trade what about with the Yankees (if we are "out of the race" by the deadline). I think our needs match up well with theirs. I was thinking we could try to get Cano and Austin Jackson. Cano would be the future at 2nd and Jackson could be our CF'er after Andruw leaves in 2010.

We could give them Lowe to give them a good starter (and they could resign him). Then we could give them Beimel (they've been interested in lefty relievers) and Saito, who could be their eighth inning guy. I think that would really help them pitching wise but maybe thats too much money? We could also throw in Kent/Delwyn or someone like that to play 2nd if they didn't want to use anyone in-house. I don't know, maybe I'm way off.

Or we could go after someone like Dan Uggla. Florida needs a 3rd baseman, we could give them Dewitt plus Hu to play 2nd or play SS and move Hanley to the OF (which has been rumored because he's terrible at short). Then we would probably need to throw in an arm, maybe Meloan. Anyone think that would work. Way too much to give up? We just really need power...

140 Probably wouldn't be a good idea to trade with the Mariners if Evans were to become the GM.

Four days in the Sierra, looking forward to nightime atmospherics enabling me to catch the scores on LA stations, and...erk.

Free GOLF!!!

143 - Looks like Wang could be done for the year too. The Yanks are about to get desperate for starting pitching.

146 - You mean, Free-er golf!

I really like Evans yes I know he made some questioable moves at times but OVERALL I really liked him hopefully he gets the Seattle gig.

By the way I think all Penny is gonna need is a good shoulder streghning (sp?) program this off season (shoulder problem a blessing in disguise) I really do, he's gonna be cheap considering the market.

Rocco is choking.

149 - I didn't think Evans made any moves, which is exactly why people have a favorable impression of him (a welcome strategy following the Kevin Malone Experience). He did trade Kevin Brown for Weaver/Yhency. Was there anything else that he did?

Did he make the Izturis deal with Toronto?

151 He traded Gary Sheffield for Andrew Brown, Brian Jordan, and Odalis Perez. Not a great trade.

151 from what I remember, yes.

152 It wasn't a bad trade. Sheffield needed to leave L.A. for PR reasons, Odalis gave us one Cy Young-contending season plus one other good season, and Brown helped get us Milton Bradley and eventually Ethier.

He traded nobody for Rickey Henderson.

He also signed Juan Encarnacion, and was fine going with Cora/Izturis up the middle. He signed Fred McGriff as well, and the 2003 offense was largely on his shoulders.
He vetoed a Beltre for Rolen deal in 2002.

He didnt really add any value to the club.
But he did hire Logan White.
So pluses for that.

But as far as MLB GM'ing, he did very little.

Evans seemed to suffer most when it came to finding offense. Either he couldn't pick 'em, or he was too tough as a negotiator -- it seemed he frequently walked away from deals because he wouldn't budge (much) in the talks. Thus we got the Burnitzes and McGriffs and Venturas of the world.

156

Didn't he develop one of the most dominant pitching staffs ever in 2003?

152

I always believed that was a good trade by Evan's, I have often wondered who WARP (or other SABR measure) would show won that trade.

156--Not really. Most of those guys had career years.

Eric Gagne made quite a few people look good, even Jim Tracy during the 2002-2003 campaign.

Rocco loses. Boo.

160

So you are not giving him any credit for that?

156 If the 2003 offense was on his shoulders, then so was the 2003 pitching staff, which was one of the 10 or so best pitching staffs in the history of baseball.

Evans, like a lot of GMs, got mixed results. But of course, you choose to remember the bad decisions and pretend the good ones didn't happen.

157 - He had the agreement with Vlad in place when McCourt bought the team.

With Seattle making it clear that Bavasi's replacement (his assistant) is temporary while they conduct a search, is it time to worry that Ng or White gets some consideration up there?

Bavasi's axing gives me hope that Colletti will be out before the July trade talks heat up. I don't want Colletti anywhere near the trade deadline.

163 - True, and I'd forgotten that. Actually, I've tried not to think about it -- it was such a lovely introduction to the McCourt ownership era.

The Dodgers pitching staff in 2003:

Hideo Nomo--Evans
Kevin Brown--Malone
Odalis Perez--Evans
Kaz Ishii--Evans
Wilson Alvarez--Evans
Darren Dreifort--Draft
Andy Ashby---Malone?
Guillermo Mota--Evans
Tom Martin--Evans
Paul Shuey---Evans
Eric Gagne--Draft
Paul Quantrill--Evans

Evans had the very good fortune of having the relief core have career years. Whether he should get credit for it or what not---thats like asking if Kenny Williams should be given credit for teh 2005 Sox pitching staff having career years...Was it reasonable to assume the 2003 Dodger offense would be bad? Probably. Was it reasonable to assume the Dodger pitching staff would be awesome? I dont know. I doubt it.

When Nate suggest Evans "built" something, I take it to mean building a pitching staff that would have prolonged success.

Unfortunately, only Odalis Perez was a good pitcher that he acquired. And I'd include Mota in that list as well.

Nomo, Weaver, Ishii werent very good.
Shuey, Martin, Quantrill were middle relief.
Gagne was hall of fame worthy for that run.

Evans had the good fortune of having some middle relievers have amazing years.

Its amazing how the greatness of Eric Gagne masked some very clear defiencies in Dodger managment during those years.

164 - The guys at USS Mariner are big fans of Chris Antonetti, but I think either Ng (hiring would be well-received in Seattle, I think, plus the presence of Evans there) or White (minors desperate for a makeover) make a lot of sense for Seattle.

The difference is that Bavasi has been publicly on the hot seat for a long time. Nedco's seat is only hot here and on Dodger Blues. There's no real sign from ownership (or even the mainstream media) that they're dissatisfied with him. The reason "blame the youth" bothers us so much here isn't because youth are being blamed--they're being blamed as COMPANY POLICY. Nedco may very well be allowed to wreak unholy havoc at the deadline.

Logan will be talking draft tomorrow at 2 p.m. on Dodgers.com

169 - I wouldn't say it's just those two places. Check out www.firenedcollettinow.com, dodgers.cc, 6-4-2, and to a lesser extent my own blog, as just a few of several other places that aren't thrilled with Colletti.

167 In the first two years after Evans reacquired Nomo, Hideo made 67 starts, threw 438 2/3 inning, had ERA+ of 112 and 130, was 32-19 (FWIW), with 370 Ks (and 199 BB), ~1.28 WHIP overall - not too bad.

Its too bad Nomo's bad end soured my memories of him. He really was good his 1st tour in LA, and the 1st part of his 2nd tour.

171 -- But, don'tcha know, McCourt doesn't care what people living in their parents' garages think.

167 That's a really distorted view of things.

Nomo "wasn't very good"? We had him for two and a half years, and for two of those years he kicked butt. And why is it that, in your world, players who were bad for one year (McGriff) count against Evans, but players who were good for one year don't count in his favor?

Nomo, Alvarez, Quantrill, Mota were all brilliant acquisitions, as was the Brown/Brazoban/Weaver trade, as was the decision to make Gagne the closer. Even the small pitching moves like Tom Martin and Carrara worked out well for a while, and we cut bait when they stopped being effective.

The extent to which you find it necessary to bend over backwards to try to make Evans look bad is probably pretty good evidence in itself that his tenure wasn't that bad.

174 - no arguments there. I agree that in reality, his seat is probably slightly warm, like a public toilet seat too soon after a fat man has been there.

171 , 174 Yeah, no blog is going to get a GM fired. Until both the half-ignorant casual fans and the half-ignorant casual columnists (Plaschke) start calling en masse for his head, his job is safe.

177

Said fans might be able to point (quite easily) to the Jones signing as a MAJOR failure, to go with the Pierre "failure," and the Schmidt failure.

Even for the casual fan, there is plenty of evidence to call for NedCo's head!

I was using those two blogs as examples of the higher-end intellects of Dodger Nation (a small nation, like Luxembourg).

178 I agree; I just don't think it's reached critical mass yet.

Despite knowing that hitting coaches are unfairly blamed and probably unfairly praised, I'm kind of excited with the idea that Mattingly will have more time to spend with the Dodgers soon. LA next month, and I bet he may make an appearance in Cincy this week, too. He seems to have a good effect on some of the younger hitters and at the very least, it can't hurt to have him around more.

177 "Until both the half-ignorant casual fans and the half-ignorant casual columnists (Plaschke) start calling en masse for his head, his job is safe."

The half-ignorant casual fans are already calling for Ned's head. If you go to the dodgers.com message board, you can count the number of post that are "positive" about Ned on one hand.

The half-ignorant columnists may be more of a challenge, but I think you're underestimating the power of blogs these days. The Seattle press had just barely started pointing fingers at Bavasi until now while USSMariner and Lookout Landing were heavily fanning the flames of angst and dissension ever since the Bedard trade.

The only thing I worry about -- as much as I worry about Colletti being desperate to make a big move to save his job (worried about what that move would entail), I also worry about a "new sheriff in town" coming in to try to also make a big splash right off the, er, bat. Now if a new GM were Ng or White or Watson, I'd worry much less about that. If they fire Colletti and replace him with another old school, more experienced GM, who knows what might happen. I guess I'm just saying, be careful what you wish for. And yet if the calls for Colletti's head also make it clear that a replacement should come from an in house option, and they actually listen to that, then I'd worry less and the future would indeed appear brighter.

182 - I disagree. The Seattle media (talk radio especially) had been calling for Bavasi's head for some time. His success last year gave him a stay of execution, but the disaster that this season quickly devolved into made it a no-brainer.

Seattle was quite successful earlier this decade, but since being hired before the '04 season, his teams lost 99, 93, 84, 74 (last season's mirage) and are on pace for 105 this year.

182 Good point, but as inane as the stuff posted on Dodgers.com can be, those people still represent a level of knowledge several cuts above the level of the average fan. They are, after all, hard-core enough to spend their time posting on a team message board. (And this may or may not be related, but ever since MLB.com started doing internet voting, the fan choices for the All-Star Game have been admirably knowledgeable.)

The folks on Dodgers.com are going to go to the games anyway. The people McCourt is trying to appeal to are the ones whose decisions to attend are based on whether the team is trendy or not, or is getting positive vibes in the press. If even those people start getting upset with Colletti, only then, I think, do we have a man whose job is in trouble.

184 - I should follow that up with: Ned hasn't received 10% of the blame/criticism that Bavasi has been getting in Seattle for the last 2 years or so.

Back in the day, I remembered Joe McDonnell on 710ESPN (whatever it was called back then) harping on Dan Evans in his day. Then when DePodesta was hired, he'd harp on him. I stopped listening to the show by the time Ned was hired, and I think even the show was disbanded by then.

Anyway, the mainstream media is never going to be happy with a GM. It's better radio to harp on whoever's in charge, not unlike how we... [sidesteps Rule 5 violation]

Bavasi probably spent yesterday mourning his father's death (a few weeks back); and today he's looking for work. Really, really lousy timing regardless of the quality of his work as GM.

If White were GM it would be my guess that he might (is that enough iffy words) make a trade with the Cubs by offering Loney and a Pitcher for Lee. Depending on what Torre had to say, White be the one most likely to trade Pierre, maybe trying to get Lee with Loney and Pierre.

Nothing personal but I would get a kick out of Ned being fired by McCourt before the one year anniversary of Frank telling us that Ned was his greatest hire. Not sure why, probably a character flaw.

Simers will be on Colletti's case as soon as the Lakers are done. He's already planted the seeds.

I don't think there's much doubt that a sub-.500 finish will turn the mainstream against Colletti. I think the biggest question is whether Frank wants to risk adding another firing to his reputation or not. My guess is that Frank really doesn't want to do that, and that he likes Colletti, but if Frank could maneuver a replacement for Colletti the way he did for Little, he would.

To float a thought along those lines ... I haven't seen anyone note that a very viable replacement for Colletti in McCourt's eyes would be Torre himself. Remember, Torre isn't expect to manage the Dodgers beyond 2010 anyway. He may be the GM in waiting.

I don't really mean for this to be taken seriously and certainly don't mean for it to offend, but someone less circumspect could make the case that Kim Mattingly is the reason that Colletti could surivive a bad year, because her situation kept Torre's heir apparent away.

This team will end up being an interesting comparison to the 2005 team. The 2005 over/under was 85 wins, this year 86 wins. Injuries probably cost us 10 wins in each case. But in 2005 you only had about $25M on the DL vs. about $70M this year (incl. Loaiza). If injuries weren't a good enough explanation to buy DePo another season, why should Colletti be held to a different standard?

Pac-10 draft update:

Chase Budinger is coming back to Arizona and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute is staying in the draft.

Double Yuck, Torre as GM and Mattingly as Manager.

I think McCourt would more likely keep Colletti but pull in the reins. His mistake would be to listen to both Torre and Colletti about player trades and acquisitions instead of letting White have a huge say.

You have to eliminate the reaction of your average fan/season ticketholder to whether or not the they can affect the job status of the GM in Los Angeles.

Since McCourt has owned the Dodgers attendance has gone up every year. In Seattle, since the 2003 season, attendance is down 30% (2003 was the high water mark, it went down from 40K to 36K in 2004 and this year they are averaging 28K)

So if you take them out, can pressure from the media get something going? Again, as Vin Scully said, thank god for the Lakers and Kobe Bryant. The Dodgers will skate by for another week or so but now with Jones hurt, their favorite target is out of sight.

Simers did write something a few weeks ago on Ned but I don't foresee any pieces like Plaschke wrote about DePodesta or some of the younger players.

And finally, if the media couldn't get Kobe Bryant dealt last year, I don't think they could get a GM fired.

193

Haha on Chase.

191 - Brian Cashman's contract is up this year. The parallels are certainly there between Little/Torre and Ned/Cashman. I don't see any other big name glamourous GMs out there.

I wonder if Jamie McCourt has any interest in LA being the first team to have a female GM? Maybe Seattle could force their hand by courting Kim Ng.

196- I am glad you didn't say never because that usually goes against you.

120
The bonehead list-
Brian Sabean
JP Riccardi.

Well, just about everyone on the net thinks Colletti is a terrible GM. It's not just us and Dodger Blues. Of course I'm sure blogs don't even amount to a hill of beans as far as media attention goes as far as the McCourts go. I think the real problem will be that Torre will get a say on who the new GM will be, and this is a guy who bats Pierre lead off every day right now. Maybe he could Cashman to follow him out here. He does have a pretty good trading record. It's not what I want if we fire Colletti, but it's something I can live with if we need Torre's seal of approval.

196
Sure but if the team is out of the running early, Frank can see the empty seats in Aug/Sept even if the attendance numbers tell him he's doing great. History has shown that the season ticket holders will stay home in droves if the team is not winning. He can hear the boos being heaped upon HIS team, and he will hear the fans yelling at him.

He freaked out the last time the Dodgers had a miserable season and unless things start breaking right for this team it will be a repeat of 2005. He created this mess when he panicked in Oct of 2005. I wouldn't put it past him to panic again if we continue to have a dismal year.

200 - Riccardi but no Ed Wade? Not even a Jim Bowden mention?

203 I always forget Ed Wade is a GM again. Bowden hasn't done anything horrific for two years now except the Dmitri Young extension, so I think he's learned.

191

I can't imagine Torre wanting to be a GM at this stage in his life. He's approaching 70 and well he makes more money than most GM's do anyway. Being a GM is a 24/7 kind of job and I'm sure most would prefer to get $4 million or so a year just being a manager.

I guess that's another thing we should keep in mind: GMs can improve. Bowden did, it seems. Kenny Williams did. Minaya did. Maybe Colletti can too.

Yeah, I can definitely see Mattingly groomed as heir apparent, but with Torre groomed for... retirement or special adviser or broadcaster (again).

206 In some ways I thought Colletti had improved and learned, this off season. He did some of things I wanted - didn't trade the special core of young players and prospects, and even the Jones signing seemed to indicate he learned that Pierre was a mistake, his own. That Jones failed (at least so far) and the Furcal injury have made him regress and look bad again. But it is possible for GMs to learn.

200

Riccardi!!!

That reminds me, let's see how Frank Thomas is playing since he was cut by the Jays:

.319 / .417 / .516 with 4 HRs and 16 RBIs

grrrrrrrreat idea, JP :-)

Let's start a grassroots campaign to make me the GM, and I can be the voice/action for the minds of DT.

210

Shall we call it the garage movement?

the co-worker I'm going to the Cleveland series with is a HUGE Mattingly fan so much so that he became a Yanks fan because of it ( he played 1st base Mattingly played 1st base, that stupid thing) so he will be pleased to here that tid bit.

Dodgers article on Cole St. Clair

http://tinyurl.com/3flung

Seriously if his velocity is back and he is healthy, he could really be a steal.

Pac 10 basketball:

Arizona has the opportunity to field a real good team with Chase coming back. I think they will give UCLA a run for the Pac 10 title...

It is really painful to watch, read about, think about, or talk about the Dodgers for me right now. Jon really put into perspective just how bad they are doing right now...I knew it had to be one of the worst stretches ever because I can't remember the last time I thought this early in the season that there was just no chance to make the post-season. The NL West in general has been pretty disappointing this season, hasn't it?

214

Arizona's program is in disarray.

Between Lute losing his mind and Brandon Jenning's selfishness, Arizona is going to be a circus.

213 He's a steal, indeed. I saw him pitch a couple of times this year and like his control and composure. I can't imagine they'd start him in Ogden; Great Lakes seems more likely. And he could move fairly quickly, potentially.

Gack. Seriously someone needs to put a stop to the Juice today before someone gets hurt or the internet breaks.

219 - I dunno, man. Those Wii videos are pretty awesome (kinda NSFW).

219
I do not think that woman got that body from doing Wii Fit.

216 I am calling it now. Arizona finishes top 2 in Pac 10 conference and goes to the Elite 8.

I don't think I'll be showing that video to my g/f, to whom I just gave a Wii Fit for her bday (and yes, she loves it, she wanted it, and it's awesome.) But I don't think that is the video she needs to see.

Sites getting past being Deadspin-ish today to becoming Stuff Magazine.

Really interesting column by Dan Wetzel on biased announcers. It's about basketball announcers, but some of it would apply to baseball, too...

http://tinyurl.com/6lk9tn

>>Back then almost no one could've predicted Most's style, not the more balanced Hearn's, would become an accepted norm. Most passed away in 1993, but these days his legacy is all over the airwaves. Many local announcers are outright shills for the team.<<

Lowe for Ian Kennedy makes sense to me. Would the Yanks do it?

Dan Wetzel is a hell of a writer. Love his stuff.

225 Now that's a trade that might make sense for both teams. Although I'd rather have two first-round compensation picks than Ian Kennedy. So whether the trade works would depend on whether Lowe projects to be a Type A.

204--I think you are really giving Ricchardi a bad rap. He's done pretty well W/L wise in a very tough decision considering the payroll they have.

Sure, Ricchardi does have an ego and they do draft mostly college players---> but Beane and Epstein do as well and its worked for the A's and Sox. The Blue Jays havent drafted as well with college players, but it is a crap shoot.

Doesnt anyone that has GM'ed the Orioles for the last 15 years have to be on the list ahead of Riccardi?

226 - And I just emailed him to tell him so. Other sports columnists take note: more of that kind of stuff, less of the shrill, pandering stuff, please.

I loved the Most vs. Hearn comparison, too.

Division not decision lol.

227 Lowe has to be a Type A. They always throw that stat around how Lowe, Oswalt and someone like Halliday are the pitchers with the most wins since (insert arbitrary date here). He also racks up a ton of IP and has a low (albeit somewhat artificial) ERA. I think those are the main stats that Elias looks at. I think the main reason Andruw Jones was a type B last year was because he had a low batting average.

227 Lowe would have to be a type A, right? Sub-4 ERA's the last two years (and hopefully this year) would have to put him in the top 10% of starting pitchers or whatever the cutoff is. I'm not sure which stats they use though (wins could be a problematic choice).

I thought the point of drafting college players is that they're the ones who aren't a crapshoot. Anyway, I don't know if Ricciardi's one of the worst two, but he's been pretty bad, especially if you pin the disastrous drafts on him and not his scouting directors.

Why is Torre so concerned about disrupting Park's and Kuo's rhythm when Kuo hardly ever pitches? Kuo > Stulz. I though the games were played to win not to keep a pitchers supposed rhythm going.

So my wife's MRI results came in today - partially torn ACL, partially torn meniscus, partially torn something else. No, she is not part of the Dodger organization. Yes, I am keeping her far away from Stan Conte anyway.

Dan Wetzel also wrote what is, despite the corny title, one of the finest sports books in recent memory.

http://tinyurl.com/5t5w23

235
Maybe in 2 months she can win the US Open! :)

Sooo, what do you want to talk about for the next 300 days or so? What's everybody doing this summer now that the burden of following the Dodgers has been lifted?

I don't think the 31-38 can be completely attributed to Colletti. Most of us thought this was a mid 80s win team before the season started and what has Colletti done since then to deserve such blame? We had our best offensive player from the first 2 months of the season go down. One of his replacements (Abreu) got hurt, the other one (Hu) hit like a girl. The ace of the staff from last year (Penny) has been ineffective and pitching hurt this season. LaRoche (starting 3B) got hurt, Nomar (depth) got hurt and many of the young hitters that are fan favorites here have been mediocre. Past mistakes are still obvious (Pierre 5 yr $45mil contract), but there were many who applauded (perhaps with some caution) the Schmidt and Andruw Jones signings. The Dodgers seem to be succumbing to injuries and under performance more than malpractice from our GM. Afterall, none of our favorites were traded in the offseason and Kershaw is up. I agree that our GM is not very good, but have seen nothing so far this year to make me think any less of him than the previous season. I think the team, as built should be good enough (when healthy) to win the division despite who our GM is.
vr, Xei

224 My main problem with J.P. Riccardi is that he seems to miss the fact that you need good players to win. He's created a team that is good for something in the neighboorhood of 80-85 wins, but there's nowhere he can go from here without spending millions of dollars that he doesn't have.

The best player that Riccardi has brought into the organization in five years is Aaron Hill. (Shaun Marcum might be able to take that title soon). That's why the guy is terrible.

235 - Sorry to hear that! :-( I hope she has a speedy recovery, though I know those things are never literally speedy.

238 - Hey, some of us haven't given up on the season yet!

But I also plan on finishing screenplay and backpacking once and gardening more.

222- Re: Arizona. Won't happen. Lute has lost the plot.....and quite possibly his marbles. Budinger returning helps, but there isn't enough returning talent. Recruits/commits are leaving in droves, the entire coaching staff has been fired or otherwise departed. It's a mess down in Tucson. UCLA wins the Pac 10 easily next year. Arizona finsihes around 4-6, which would be an improvement over last season.

Most of us thought this was a mid 80s win team before the season started

Well, that was the biggest problem.
When you have a loaded farm system, and a huge payroll---you should be able to put together a team better than 82 wins.

"Arizona finsihes around 4-6"

Did they get the half-death penalty while I wasn't looking? ;)

231 ,232
Lowe was safely a Type A last year. His score was 82.933 -- based on 2006-2007 stats -- which ranked him 9th in the NL and 19th in MLB. 37 starters qualified as Type A, so he'd have to fall pretty far to not be a Type A.

Type A players are ranked in the top 20% at their position, but I have no idea how Elias comes up with the numbers for the rankings.

I'm not a Colletti fan. But if a GM firing is done carefully, for cause, and not in response to media pressure, I'm not sure you can make a case for McCourt firing Colletti.

For the sake of argument, let's accept that he could not have foreseen what happened to four of his most critical and expensive acquisitions: Schmidt, Jones, Furcal and Garciaparra. It's not that he's made bad acquisitions, it's that he hasn't caught a break with almost any of them. He was ready for Pierre to be relegated to part-time status, but between the injury/unexpected lameness of Jones and the disabling of Furcal, Pierre managed to win both his old jobs back -- a nightmare.

LaRoche's ST injury interrupted what seemed like an inevitable rise to the starting job at 3rd. Combined with Kent's fragility, and our infield depth has been overtaxed. I'm sure Colletti never anticipated Maza and Hu would start so many games, or that we'd ever have to stoop to starting a cast-off like Angel Berroa.

Blaming the kids is agenda-driven, coming from media types who want a winner every year to help sell papers, but whose idea of building a winner is to gather as many famous names as possible (by trading away "unknowns" and "minor-leaguers.") But blaming Colletti is also agenda-driven (an agenda I happen to agree with). What's killed this team's chances is too many guys getting hurt.

Martin
Loney
Kent
Furcal
LaRoche/DeWitt
Ethier
Jones 2007
Kemp

Penny
Lowe
Billingsley
Kuroda
Schmidt/Kershaw

is a lot better team than what we have now. That's the team Colletti assembled.

Should McCourt blame Colletti for the injuries? Should they have been foreseen? That's the critical question.

Still, I worry about what Colletti will do if he thinks his job is in jeopardy unless he turns things around. History suggests it's already too late anyway, but he still might try. If he does, however, and it doesn't work out, he ups his chances of getting fired exponentially. So maybe looking to 2009 and alibiing injuries for 2008 is his best path to survival.

So, David Simon fans, I got the first five episodes of "Generation Kill" today.

243. I was thinking better than 82 wins. More like 85-87 wins. vr, Xei

238 I'll be playing my PS3 in the basement =)

FYI, Jeff Kent and Rafael Furcal will be teetering the Type A/B line going into the offseason. I would imagine Kent would decline arbitration, but he'll probably retire anyway so we wouldn't get any picks.

Earlier I floated the idea of offering Kent arbitration and was shouted down. Which was probably the right response.

I gather which way Furcal teeters depends on how much he plays the rest of the season. If he ends up a type B, then that's all the more reason to re-sign him. Especially since the price is dropping with every day he spends on the DL.

Today's Joe Posnanski blog piece on Tiger Woods is very good.

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/

251
I propose if we resign a Type B Furcal, we should still get a sandwich pick. :)

251 - I continue to believe that for each week he spends on the DL with his back trouble, Furcal is losing at least $1 million guaranteed off the total value of his next contract.

Slow news day chuckles...

Joe Sheehan on the Jones signing (12/07):

"Given Jones' age and the stability of so many elements to his performance, I'm certain that he's going to bounce back to his established level... One year or two, this is a fantastic deal for the Dodgers, who get back-end-of-peak years from a Hall of Fame player without committing to his decline phase. Jones will bounce back in 2008, and he'll be a seven-win player over the two years of the deal... I love this contract. It will be far and away the smartest thing any team does this winter, and it pushes the Dodgers up a little bit closer to the Diamondbacks in the 2008 NL West race."

and Colletti at the Winter Meetings....

Asked if it was the salary that was driving up expectations about Pierre, Colletti said, "Check it out on some blog, I don't know."

I can't imagine Torre wanting to be a GM at this stage in his life. He's approaching 70 and well he makes more money than most GM's do anyway. Being a GM is a 24/7 kind of job and I'm sure most would prefer to get $4 million or so a year just being a manager.

$4 million a year to put 9-10 names per day on a piece of paper and then sit on a bench for 3-4 hours is a pretty good deal, especially when it doesn't even matter if you're objectively good at selecting and arranging the names.

McCourt's response to firing Colleti might be that he likes him and he just spent $54,000,000 training him.

255 Is Jones' injury the cause, a cause, or not a cause of his poor start this season? Seems like the media reports leave that question kind of murky.

167 - Andy Ashby was one of Kevin Malone's deals, as was Darren Dreifort's extension. Gagne was drafted, but his conversion to closer occurred on Evans' watch; not that Evans necessarily gets credit for that, but it's worth a mention.

In other words, Evans wasn't perfect but you have to consider what he was working with. As Eric Enders pointed out in 172 , his acquisition of Hideo Nomo worked out brilliantly, giving the Dodgers the last good year of his career.

WRT the 2003 team, I keep coming back to the fact that that team got more out of its pitching staff (as measured by Win Shares) than any other club since 1900 with a winning record.

http://6-4-2.blogspot.com/2006/09/todays-birthdays_16.html#Paul_Shuey

If you want to bag on Evans, talk about the offense... not that he didn't try, but Fred McGriff was done. I remember getting the bobblehead just days before or after he went on the DL for an extended time, right at the All-Star break.

256 - he is paid for dealing with a hostile media more than scribbling players' names.

257 - does Colletti get a commission?

Fred McGriff was coming off a season where he hit 30 HR with 100+ RBI, a 125 OPS+. I think it was defensible to sign him for one year.

he is paid for dealing with a hostile media more than scribbling players' names

But if there were no manager, there'd be no one for the media to hassle. Plus, if the main job of a manager is to deal with the media, then just hire a PR person who's trained in such things rather than a former baseball player who's (presumably) not.

258 My own observations are that Jones did poorly then injured himself. My idea of what happened is
1) Bat speed slowed
2) Jones decided to swing harder and wilder
3) That didn't work, causing some poor performance.
note) Also, he weighed too much for his joints to be happy - thinking his lack of weight was what robbed him of power last year.
4) He then became embarrassed and tentative and hoped to make contact. He made a lot of half-swing, buckled-knee tap-outs when he wasn't taking ridiculous swings, causing more poor performance, and maybe injuring his knee as he tried to decelerate his swing.

5) The hundreds of off-balance, lunging, twisting, all-or-nothing swings (always nothing) with the extra weight and extra momentum injured his knee.

So I kind of doubt he will be any good when he comes back, until he is able to rework his swing. I'm sure that with his experience and talent, he can make his current body perform at a high level in the majors, if he is pointed in the right direction.

Even giving the Dodgers some slack that losing Furcal for this extended time was a bad break (given the way he started the season), but c'mon the offense can't stink this much without him, can it?

In a word or two right now, We do Suck Eggs right now!! No use dancing around it, on days we get a few runs, our pitchers get lit up, then when we pitch well, our hitters can't hit water if they fell out of a boat. We may be on our way to the worst June Swoon ever. I hope not, but this team is spiraling downward and bottoming out fast.

We need a round of some DT good thoughts and meditations focusing our energies on getting this team back on track!!

246 - It's not that he's made bad acquisitions, it's that he hasn't caught a break with almost any of them.

If you stipulate that, you can let Kevin Malone off the hook for the Darren Dreifort extension, too. Schmidt had an injury history prior to coming to the Dodgers, had declining velocity in his last season, and his old team didn't make a bid on him, which should have been Clues. Jones' productivity on line drives has been documented at The Hardball Times and was certainly available to Colletti prior to the signing. Furcal and Garciaparra are more arguable (though extending Garciaparra at his age wasn't a terrific idea), but handing a huge contract to a slap-hitting, armless speedster like Juan Pierre was a mistake, period.

c'mon the offense can't stink this much without him, can it?

Well, the leadoff spot went from a 1.000 OPS guy to a .660 OPS guy. That's a pretty big difference, especially since that spot in the lineup gets the most PAs.

What's that you say? You'd like to see some Match Game featuring former Dodger great Radar O'Reilly? Well, here you go.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-FBKrzHIrRA

262 - haven't you seen Bull Durham? Players are trained to deal with the media.

And realistically, there is more to being a manager than setting the line up and rotation. There are strategic decisions to be made during the course of a game (setting the defense, hit-and-run, steals, substitutions, etc) that make up the managers job. There's also that overlooked job of coaching players to get the best out of them.

And as a general rule, in every sport you hire a former player to be a coach. I can't think of any professional or high level college coach who did not play the sport at a rather high level. You want someone who, at least in theory, understands the players and what they are going through.

264 Basically. Everyone except Martin and Loney has stunk since Furcal went down. It's not veterans versus kids or anything, it's every hitter on the Dodgers.

268
"I've got people skills! What the hell is wrong with you people?!?!"

Bad team man. Bad [rule 1] team.

269 Last game with Furcal May 5. Since then:

Pierre: .257 .307 .283 .590
Kent : .205 .233 .348 .581
Martin: .323 .386 .441 .827
Loney: .318 .371 .470 .841
Kemp : .268 .331 .370 .701
Ethier: .263 .304 .407 .711
DeWitt: .268 .323 .390 .713
Shortstops: unprintable

269 - very fair. It's especially disappointing because I've been so fond of the kids, while at times forgetting they'll struggle in parts of their early career.

268 Thirty-one and 38! How did we ever win 31 games?

272 - I remember the days when .590 and .581 would have been considered unprintable. Or at least I can imagine remembering.

272 - Interesting. May 5th was the turning point of this season for the worst. When in 2006 that date was the turning point of that season, albeit for the better. That date was the debut of Russell Martin as well.

274 We had quite a big winning streak once. People seem to forget.

265 Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to Pierre in my assessment of Colletti's bad luck. The unavailability of Jones, Schmidt, Garciaparra and Furcal is what has crushed any plans Colletti might have had. Pierre, for all his cruddiness, is delivering per expectations.

Your point is that Colletti should have known that all four of these players were risky acquisitions. If that can be proven, that's the only legitimate case for firing him. But I'm not sure there's a consensus about that as the Sheehan quote up the thread about Jones partially illustrates.

278
I don't want to beat up on Pierre any more than we already have, but his numbers are low even for him. Though our prospects are better for next year, we run less talent out there right now than the Pirates do offensively.

Colletti should get a bit of a pass on this season in my opinion (with regards to firing) due to the lack of health the Dodgers have had. I think that McCourt gives him one more year to try and right the ship with the understanding that he can give Kim Ng (my choice) the reins with $73 million (by my estimate) in contracts off the books by the end of next season.

Next season is the last in Colletti's contract. Is it customary either to extend or fire your GM prior to his last contracted season so that a team doesn't have a potential lame-duck at the helm? Colletti as a final-year GM might give me pause.

Colletti should get a bit of a pass on this season in my opinion (with regards to firing) due to the lack of health the Dodgers have had

The McCourts should at least extend Ned the same bit of a pass they extended Depo after the 2005 season.

I still like the potential of this team.
Plus, I can always cash in my Loser's Dividend after the all-star break :)

Is anyone watching the Phillies/Sawx game?
Entertaining to watch triples from Burrell and Howard. And old friend JD Drew leading the Boston hitting squadron with an OPS around 1.000.

279

Injuries have definitely been a large part of why the team has done so poorly. This fact I think does give Coletti the pass for this year from McCourt.

On a positive note in looking at the total runs scored for and against the Dodgers are down only 5 runs 292 versus 297. I was surprised the difference was so small.

I still think they have a chance if they can put a small streak together to give the team some confidence. I am also hoping perhaps that of the many players who are on the DL, if one of them comes back really healthy, it could be enough to get things going!

280
Ol Frank still has to sign the checks.

I have never seen anyone really try recently, but has anyone really tried lately to make the case that Colletti has been better than DePo? I would like to see someone take that position just to see if there have been many positives that I may be overlooking.

277 Dodgers won 11 of 13, with that last win being the first game sans Rafael.

.283 .361 .416 .777 - 2008 Dodgers with Furcal
.242 .295 .346 .641 - 2008 Dodgers w/o Furcal
.259 .331 .411 .742 - 2008 NL Combined

I know it's already deemed unprintable, but what exactly have our shortstops been hitting?

286
Non Furcal SS have hit .136/./190/.186 in 128 PA.

287 I guess the OPS is still unprintable!

288
It has to be seen, you know, kind of like one of trainwreck's comments. :)

287
That has to be historical in some sense.

Think Florida would take Pierre and Kent for Hanley Ramirez? I bet we would even pay the rest of Pierre and Kent's salaries;-)

287

That's pretty bad man, that's why I rather have Hu playing SS than a [know were man] Berroa... at least Hu is part of our future & can gain experience playing everyday & HITTING EVERYDAY major league pitching!

290
I found 7 seasons by non-pitchers in the integration era with at least 128 PA and sub-.200 SLG & OBP. Maury Wills' 1972 rears it's ugly head yet again.

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/GtmK

291
I agree with you about Hu, but he seemed so gone and lost that he needed to just get his head right. Well, now it turns out he needs to get his vision right.

Once he's back from the DL, and assuming Nomar's bag of bones goes back on the DL, I expect Hu to see his way back to the big club.

I didn't even look at the full list in 292 . The Royals currently employ a SS that has been worse than ours !!!

And we acquired a guy that was his backup!!! (I'm aware of the defensive gap)

294
I didn't intend that to be a jumping off point to condemn the Berroa signing; I just found it tragically comical.

Chipper is 2 for 3 tonight, and is currently up to .405. He can go 0 for 3 and still be at .400.

Speaking of Brad Penny, and Hu, an update from Tony Jackson:

>>Dr. ElAttrache found no structural damage in Brad Penny's shoulder, just some mild inflammation and some mild tendinitis. He won't pitch on Friday, but he WILL throw on Friday. No word yet on whether he is headed to the DL, but it's probably a safe bet at this point. ... Nomar Garciaparra also saw Dr. ElAttrache today and was cleared to begin his minor-league rehab assignment tomorrow night with Triple-A Las Vegas. ... Chin-lung Hu saw the eye doctor, who told him there is nothing wrong with his eyes. He'll return to action immediately.<<

(Me: ElAttrache? Is that really the guy's name?)

297 So, Penny and Hu are hypochondriacs?

298 -- You can have a vision problem without having a problem with the eyes as such. A couple of years ago my father had double vision for about a month. There was nothing wrong with his eyes, according to an eye specialist he saw, but there was a problem with a blood vessel behind one of his eyes.

298

They have a bad case of suck.

297 Yep, that is his name.

Well, Bob would probably never see this doctor for reasons outside of his medical ability.

http://tinyurl.com/rldbb

But he does work for the clinic bearing two famous names in sports medicine, so I have to believe he does know something about the aches and pains of a player's body.

seriously though, I really hope the training staff puts Penny on a strict shoulder strengthening program he really means a lot to our staff, & Hu i'm not worried about Hu he'll be o.k.

Sorry if this was in a previous thread. I haven't been on Dodgers.com in a couple of days, so imagine my shock when I saw the following link:

Pierre a True Asset for Dodgers

Do the people running the site even watch baseball?

In it Sarah wrote the following gem

Defensively, Pierre has improved over the last year. Pierre had trouble adjusting to Dodger Stadium. Often, he didn't get good jumps on fly balls in center field. As last season went on, he got better. Although he will never have a strong arm, it is not that important if he catches the ball. Many outfielders don't have strong arms and fans don't criticize them.

I don't even have the words...

303 That is true. You can cost your team a heck of a lot more with bad defense than with a bad arm.

i was this close to declaring "eh, wait till next year", but first i thought i'd check the standings.

1) how are we only 5.5 games back??

2) how did the NL west turn into more or less the worst division in baseball again?

303 Her articles have been talked about here before, she is not affiliated with the Dodgers and her opinions are her own.

I will just say that she has as much right to state that as anyone else does to differ from it, because its posted on the Dodgers site doesn't mean much.

297

So if we shut Penny down for 2-3 starts, does that mean he will improve immediately once he returns. It seems to me he is not having velocity problems, he is not able to get the strikeouts he had last year and he also seems to walk more batters.

303
One more that is making me a little loopy:

[Pierre has blazing speed, his greatest asset to his team. I know "Moneyball" said that baseball teams shouldn't pay much for players who are fast and can play good defense.]

I don't seem to remember that in the book...

Can the people who keep criticizing the book READ IT PLEASE!!!!!!!

298/299 - Still, it doesn't sound very helpful, if you're Hu. It's almost like, "There's nothing wrong with you, chump! Get back out there and hit!" Well, if there's a blood vessel problem that is blurring his vision, that's still a problem. If there's literally no problem with his vision, then it could've been a temporary thing, or, yes, a case of hypochondria.

As for Penny, it's pretty good news - there's enough cause to likely DL him, but it's nothing major. The rest will do him good and he'll heal, and then be either a contributing asset or a tradeable asset. Having a bum shoulder means he has no value. Having a healed one, teams will be interested again.

305 Well Arizona stopped hitting too, the Rockies can't seem to pitch or hit with much consistently and they have been taken to school by the NL West (AZ is 8-1 against them).

San Diego and San Francisco have moments but their offense is even worse than the Dodgers on most nights.

So you have a division that really doesn't hit well and then combine it with some injuries and not playing well on the road or out of the division, this is what you get.

306
I have read her stuff before, it is just that...sigh...

No use preaching to the choir.

308 Yah, I'm wondering if Joe Morgan has finally read that book? Very likely he has not. (It's funny to read Moneyball's epilogue, in which he addresses the people like Morgan who reference it with disdain but never read it.)

this is just my opinion but when ever your shoulder hurts or your just plain tired & are unable to throw strikes & JUST THROW IT DOWN THE MIDDLE your gonna get hit & hit hard these guys are major leaguers you gonna be able to throw on the corners & such, he just lacks control these days...

plus, didn't Jon link some post on another blog with all these #"s & Eric pretty much said MLB players were just sitting on his fastball or something like that?

306 - I have to disagree that it doesn't mean much that it is posted on Dodgers.com. I think it is nice thing for the Dodgers to allow her to post these writings on their website, I have no problem with that but they should allow that forum to present the opposing view. By allowing her to present one side of the story on the Dodgers main page she is allowed to perpetuate the myth to the casual fan. The casual fan should also get the counterpoint.

One prime example (that I remember) was when he threw a fastball right down the middle to D.Wright, D.WRIGHT!! who kills him.

Dr. ElAttrache found no structural damage in Brad Penny's shoulder, just some mild inflammation and some mild tendinitis

Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if pretty much every pitcher has mild inflammation and mild tendinitis.

by the way Bob was on fire early today with his posts on the Griddle, very entertaining...

314 - I don't think point-counterpoint is typical of any major publication. It's not like every issue cuts along opposing lines.

Dodgers.com could in theory run a letters to the editor column, but they do also offer you the opportunity to start your own blog.

Sarah Morris writes some good stuff at times, one thing that comes to mind was the Brett Butler story & a few more, I read her stuff & I have to be honest I really disagree with some of her stuff as well.

303 - what were you doing reading Sarah Morris? I figured everyone by now knew she really doesn't have much of a clue.

I think Sarah Morris is amazing and I hope she will continue to write whatever she wants.

I think Sarah Morris is amazing and I hope she will continue to write whatever she wants. But her analysis of the Dodgers leaves something to be desired.

303
If you want a breakdown on how bad a column it was, you should check out
http://mikesciosciastragicillness.com/

I don't normally care what a manager or GM says and prefer to pay attention to the actions. Torre does nothing but praise Pierre and his actions also do nothing but praise Pierre. I'm left to conclude that Torre really thinks that just because Pierre is fast that he is a valuable asset to the team and that getting on base is secondary. If the Dodger record since Furcal is not enough to make you grimace, then the idea that our manager for the several years is a doddering old fool should do the trick.

10 . how about this: The pitcher wears no glove, and stands with his back to the plate, rocking side to side while he tosses the ball from one hand to the other. Then he just suddenly spins one way or the other, and throws, kind of like a pick off move. Of course, he can't very well field a grounder or line drive, but big deal. He can still field a bunt, probably. He can't protect himself, so he'll have to wear a mask. How about a hockey mask? Just scare the devil out of the batter!

322-Agreed. And I was just realizing that the fact that people are disagreeing with her opinions is actually a good thing in that she is being treated like a regular writer, and not given a free pass because of what she has overcome.

I also think Sarah Morris is amazing and I hope she will continue to write whatever she wants. However, how are we, the readers, supposed to treat her? Like a "special" case? Or the same way we would treat any other writer? From what I've read about her, she would likely strongly prefer the latter. And the Dodgers, in the way they present her columns, are treating her like any other professional writer. So if we've all agreed that Sarah is and should be treated like any other writer, then the same rules apply to her as everybody else, right? And those rules include being subject to the same criticism any other writer is when he/she writes something inane.

That said, I really don't think what Sarah wrote here would make the top 50 list of inane things she's written. Most of it is true, or at least defensible:

"Defensively, Pierre has improved over the last year. Pierre had trouble adjusting to Dodger Stadium. Often, he didn't get good jumps on fly balls in center field. As last season went on, he got better. Although he will never have a strong arm, it is not that important if he catches the ball. Many outfielders don't have strong arms and fans don't criticize them."

Point-by-point:

1. "Defensively, Pierre has improved over the last year."
It's pretty obvious to anyone who's been watching that Pierre has improved defensively this year. Maybe it's just because he's playing a less challenging position, but still... he's definitely better. He breaks the right way on fly balls now and everything. He's made a lot of nice plays in left field.

2. "Pierre had trouble adjusting to Dodger Stadium."
We don't know if this is true or not. It might be true, it might not, but at least Sarah's statement isn't provably false.

3. "Often, he didn't get good jumps on fly balls in center field."
100% true.

4. "As last season went on, he got better."
I happen to disagree. But I have no evidence to show that I'm correct, just as Sarah has no evidence to show that she's correct.

5. "Although he will never have a strong arm, it is not that important if he catches the ball."
This would have been better phrased as it's more important that he catches the ball. Then it would be a definitively true statement. As it stands, it may be true anyway. I believe most research shows that there isn't that much difference, in practical terms, between the best outfield arms and the worst ones. (Regfairfield, I think you can back me up on this.) IIRC, the numbers I've seen indicate that Pierre's arm cost the Dodgers one win last year at most. That could fall under the umbrella of "not that important."

6. "Many outfielders don't have strong arms and fans don't criticize them."
This seems to be pretty true. Red Sox fans sure wanted to re-sign Johnny Damon, even though his arm might be worse than Pierre's. Indians fans don't seem all hot and bothered by the fact that Grady Sizemore's arm sucks. etc. etc.

There are many, many reasons to dislike the fact that Juan Pierre plays for the Dodgers. His arm is not in the top 5 reasons. Maybe not in the top 10.

326 -

1-3. I've only rarely seen Pierre really butcher a play, but others say they have and in enough quantity that I'll believe them when they say it. But that said, my big issue with him wasn't his routes to the balls (he could use his blazing speed to overcome bad routes) as it was his noodle arm.

5. Just not true. When baserunners at first tag up and actually beat the throw to second, something is terribly wrong.

6. I have a hard time believing that Pierre's arm is worse than any starting center fielder. I've seen Damon in action and he's no Pierre.

And I've gotta disagree with you about Pierre's arm. It's definitely in my top five:

1) Weak OBP from a player expected to lead off.
2) Inadequate CF defense, both in gaging balls (though I don't think his is particularly awful) and in returning balls to the infield.
3) Because of (2), he can't or shouldn't play corner positions because of the hit the team will then take relative to conceivable corner outfielders it could acquire.
4) Related to (1), his speed is a sort of managerial tarpit for certain managers, maybe even most managers, who will use him as a leadoff man.

Has the Peter Gammons "musical" performance on Baseball Tonight been covered here yet? After watching it, I'm currently researching nearby cliffs for nighttime jumping.

323 Pierre isn't your best example. Here's your best example:

"Torre said that he doesn't want to disrupt the rhythm of middle relievers Park and Hong-Chih Kuo, and that if Penny lands on the disabled list, his next turn in the rotation would probably be taken by someone in the Dodgers' minor league system."

I'd like to have the question and his response rather than a summary, since my one and only thought is, simply put, what rhythm Hong-zhi does he have? Is it the, I Rarely If Ever Get To Display The Talent I Have Blues?

323 Thanks!

326 *6. "Many outfielders don't have strong arms and fans don't criticize them."
This seems to be pretty true. Red Sox fans sure wanted to re-sign Johnny Damon, even though his arm might be worse than Pierre's.*

I disagree with you on that one. I lived in Boston at the time he left, and most fans were okay with his leaving when they saw the money and years he got. And as I now live in NYC - as does Damon - I've seen him play a lot, and fans definitely criticize his arm. Unlike Pierre, however, he's offered enough offensive skill to make it worthwhile.

As the Dodger team continues to find ways to keep the ball in the park, AAAA hacks like Ludwick and Thames are exploiting their chance and making Kemp look like Juan Pierre in comparison.

I mean come on, when are these guys going to come back to earth? Luckwick has more home runs then Loney/Kemp/Ethier combined. Thames might have more home runs in June then the whole Dodger infield combined.

I'm not even going to talk about Cantu.

Are the stars getting tested more often then the fringe?

Good Grief, give me one of these guys.

Almost the entire Cardinals team is AAAA hacks playing well. Todd Wellemeyer?

"5. Just not true. When baserunners at first tag up and actually beat the throw to second, something is terribly wrong."

The question is not whether something is terribly wrong. The question is how much impact it has. And the tales of runners tagging up and going from first to second -- how many times has it happened this year? Zero, I think. It might have happened once and I missed it, I don't know. And it happened 4-5 times last year. How many of those 4-5 times did a run score because of it? How often did that one run determine the outcome of the game?

Again, nobody's saying Pierre has a good arm. Nobody's denying that something is horribly wrong. But the impact of his arm -- of anyone's arm -- is a lot more minimal than it seems to the naked eye.

Pierre's arm cost the Dodgers about eight runs last year, and that about as bad as an arm gets. It's near impossible to do that kind of damage in left field (unless you're Luis Gonzalez).

I think every Dodger pitcher last year gave Pierre a look of disbelief more than once after runners moved up a base on Pierre's arm. So, if we are going to ask anybody about their opinions of Pierre's arm, start with the pitching staff.

333 What if he didn't have a throwing arm? What if he could catch the ball with unbelievable skill, but could only flip it with his glove hand to another outfielder to throw in? They wouldn't play him, I presume. So it's not completely unimportant. How bad can it tolerably get, how close to an amputee would a player have to be before you'd take him off the field despite his ability to catch the ball and his offensive prowess (obviously not an issue for Pierre.)

331 "I'm not even going to talk about Cantu."

To be fair, he is 26, and the thing that has slowed his career prior to this season was injuries, not necessarily. Plus, he did have an OPS+ of 112 back in 2005, so him producing at the level his is right now isn't entirely unexpected.

336
I think many ballplayers would have to be involved in a major world war for us to test this hypothesis.

337 To be fair, he is 26, and the thing that has slowed his career prior to this season was injuries, not necessarily performance.*

338 So if we got involved in a major world war, they'd let us cut Pierre's arm off?

Sweet!

Incidentally, should we take it as a positive sign or a negative sign that Attrache is an anagram for "reattach?"

No one's going to bring up Pete Gray?

Tomorrow Chad Billingsley defiantly returns to his home state, where he has only pitched once before. Last July, he took the loss after having the audacity to give up one run in five innings.

It'll be better this year. He'll lose after giving up one run in six innings!

342
I thought I cleverly alluded to it in 338 .

On the other hand, it may not have been so clear. Pun intended.

Frank fired DePodesta after a year filled with unlucky injuries. So Colletti has to be at least a little nervous.

340 "So if we got involved in a major world war, they'd let us cut Pierre's arm off?"

How would we be able to tell?

346 This is true. On the other hand, it's also true that McCourt may have spent his free bullet, and that he won't get as much good press if he fires a second GM for essentially having bad luck.

326- see 325.

Someone has got to break open the Myth Of Pierre in the mainstream press. The truth must be told, people.

NPUT

348.

Colletti's bad luck includes signing Loaiza for $7 mil, signing Gary Bennett, who can't throw the ball back to the pitcher, paying big money to re-sign Nomar, acquiring Roberto Hernandez who stunk, signing Pierre when he had Repko and Kemp and Delwyn Young, gambling on Schmidt and A. Jones for huge money when their best years were clearly behind them. Really bad luck.

349 Yeah, I saw it, but only after I'd made the same point much less succinctly.