Joe Morgan would like to point out that the kid just doesn't know how to win.

The guy may be a great pitcher but he is not a winner.

1 Glad to see it is such an obvious joke :)

Before I left for a camping trip last week, I crowed with certitude that `we could beat the Tigers!'.

I will make no such mistake this time.

4 - No more camping, then.

A major component of earning the official win as a pitcher is being able to stay a long time in the game and be effective. Of course, you can get the win without doing that and you can do that without getting the win. But there is a decent correlation between wins and that highly desirable characteristic of a start. It is legitimate to complain that Kershaw has not been able to pitch deep in games effectively. Of course at his age, it is unrealistic to hope that he will, and probably in some ways counterproductive to his development. But the fact remains that he doesn't currently offer this important facet of a starting pitcher. He's still a great guy to throw out there every 8 days or whatever, don't get me wrong. But there is something important (loosely) captured by Wins, and Kershaw doesn't have it as of June 2008.

6 - Well, part of it is that he's been pulled often because of limits, not ineffectiveness.

But the importance of pitcher wins is very loose, to use your term. I mean, Kershaw has clearly deserved to have a bunch of them this year.

I've always thought that the scoring rules for awarding wins should be changed. If the starting pitcher goes at least 5 innings and leaves with a lead, he should get the win even if his bullpen blows it but his team later re-takes the lead. Too many vulture wins end up going to the Scott Proctors of the world.

8 - I'd be pretty ready to get rid of the five-inning minimum, if I still cared at all about pitcher wins.

Wins are for closers!

I guess Glen Garry Glen Ross lines don't always translate.

9 Exactly. Why the different standards for starters and relievers? I'd like to know if I also still cared a lick about wins.

I've never understood why a starter has to go 5 innings to get a win but a reliever can literally not throw a single pitch and get a win, or even if they do just get one out to get a win.

Tonight's lineup:
Pierre, LF
Kemp, CF
Kent, 2B
Loney, 1B
LaRoche, 3B
Ethier, RF
Berroa, SS
Ardoin, C
Kershaw, P

It's incumbent upon me to care about wins as long as the world at large cares about them. Wins are never going away, and given that, we should try to make the stat as meaningful as possible so that the stats used by the average fan actually reflect the quality of the player.

13 A starting pitcher, like a reliever, can also technically get a win without throwing a pitch. But it's difficult.

5 Sorry, next Thursday & Friday, more Sierra. :0. But I'll keep my mouth shut this time!

15 - So, wins are like Ken Rosenthal.

LaRoche Alert! Stand Up! LaRoche Alert!

--

Jon, I might be suffering from dehydration but I'm embarrassed to admit I don't get the reference in your subject header...

18 Wins aren't quite that pointless.

The other thing about wins is that what they've become is not at all what was originally intended. We would be better off replacing the pitcher's W-L record with the team's record in games which he starts. This is, in fact, what the wins stat originally measured, because back in the 1870s every starter pitched the complete game, with no exceptions. Wins were a way of measuring how your team did in the games you started.

But then guys stopped pitching complete games and the concept of the wins stat changed. Its meaning has been distorted from what was originally intended, much in the way that "Wings" has become listed in retrospect as the 1927 Best Picture winner even though Academy members actually voted "Sunrise" as the best film of the year.

Okay, re-reading, that analogy doesn't really work. But I'm too lazy to come up with something better.

Ah, "Curses! Foiled again" - right? Not a movie title. I need to get my head out of the movie catalog.

17 Where are you camping this time?

13 what, the first 15 batters bat in the wrong order?

24 Pitcher goes to his mouth while on the mound. Ball one is called. Repeat three more times. Batter takes first and is picked off.

Repeat 15 times.

(Hey, I told you it was technical.)

23 TBD. My cousin has books with every water hole and campsite in California listed. Might head up to the Lassen/Shasta area, but the water there is cold!!

23 Speaking of Greencine, last week I took a portable DVD player along. We not only had the best campfire burning, we had movies! It was kinda neat, even though it could be said that it introduces a little too much civilization into the experience.

26 Almanor is cool. Burney Falls I hear is a great spot. Eagle Lake is closer than both and cool.

What I can't believe is that Steiner, Reuss, Monday and Ken Levine have openly ridiculed the Quality Start stat this year. Meanwhile they cite win stats on a daily basis just because. Somehow it's unthinkable that 6ip, 3er reflects "quality" yet a 5ip, 3er, WIN is commendable.

BigCPA - Defending the Quality Start since 2003.

30 - I should add, you basically converted me over to your side.

What I find amazing is the ceaseless citing of the worst possible quality start (6 IP, 3 ER) as if it were the only kind of quality start that anyone ever gets, instead of a rather rare anomaly. It's like constantly citing 5 innings and 22 earned runs as a ridiculous instance of a pitcher getting a win.

And even if 6 IP, 3 ER was the only kind of quality start anyone ever got -- that comes out, over a full season, to 204 innings pitched with a 4.50 ERA. In other words, a pitcher that every single team in baseball would embrace having in its rotation.

28 Always wanted to see Burney Falls, though the water has the rep of being waaaayyy to cold to swim in. Some fishing might be in order,though.

Thanks for the tip on Almanor. BTW, where in Northern Nevada are you?

14 Kemp is batting second, with DeWitt not in the lineup. Not much chance for many RBIs there - if his bat is heating up as it seems to be. I bet he's there because he's a fast baserunner.

27 That's neat! Especially if there aren't a lot of other campsites around you, close by, that might get annoyed by having to listen to it against their will. ;-) The one time I went camping by myself a couple of years ago I definitely wished I had something like that, though. Nothing like sitting there in the dark wide awake by yourself. Those owls need to learn to play poker.

In case anyone was wondering, since 1957 the most runs ever given up by a pitcher who was credited with a win was 10, by Bob's best pal.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIL/MIL200005210.shtml

And also by Vida Blue.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN197904190.shtml

While I like some things about our line-up tonight, it does effectively have a four man black hole. At least Berroa and Maza aren't played together, an event I can't understand with any amount of logic
(obviously what is called black logic in the Missionary conundrum.)
Kershaw should just throw normally and get his experience. Cliff Lee is a thirty year old in his prime and having a career year. And in my opinion with a bit of luck Kershaw has every chance to win.

Winners win. Losers lose.

And nodecisioners no-decision.

30 Ha! That got a smile out of me. I defend the QS because it is one of the few attempts to fix a stupid mainstream stat that gets any airtime at all. The fact that the boys club rips it just adds fuel to my rage.

I've spent a lot of time at Almanor. Huge, man-made lake. The town of Chester, on the lake has a cafe with the best chicken-fried steak I've ever had.

Jim, you should also check out Bucks Lake outside of Quincy. It's a great place with very good fishing.

35 LOL!

Given that every night brings a minimum of a three-man so-called black hole at SS, P and LF, it can't be much of a surprise that we sometimes go to four.

36 Vida Blue's a hell of a nice guy. He came to a baseball camp I went to when I was 12 and he couldn't have been a more likable guy.

40 Funny you should mention Quincy, Marty...I just left a message for another cousin, who has a cabin outside of town. Hope he can get some time off.

Andy!

(weeps)

By the way, I stopped by my local Borders during lunch. No Daily Variety :(

29

I am glad you pointed this out. They used the term "quality start" this past weekend, but it wasn't for the same definition. I got all confused.

The good news about Vin calling the game: no more debates about instant replay.

45 I know, I had the same troubles - both a Border's newsstand and a Border's store did not carry Variety. I know this is SF, not LA, but still, that's pretty lame.

Rats, I have to go to an event this early evening so I shall have to catch the Minotaur VI playing in the archives. Hope it's a good one.

33 Live in Reno, work in Carson. I also work at state tourism, so it should be noted I endorse none of the above recommendations as they are in California.

Historically only 5-6% of all Quality Starts are of the 6ip, 3er variety (http://www.diamond-mind.com/articles/qstart.htm). A Neyer study in 2005 showed the avg ERA for pitchers earning Qual Starts was 2.04 compared to 7.70 in Non Qual Starts. Also the avg ERA for NL starters in 2007 was 4.64.

Reuss said on the air that 4.50 isn't even average. Maybe he's talking about the 80's.

48 Cool. I live and work in Carson (work on Arrowhead Dr.), but head to Reno every Saturday to hang out with my cousins.

So far, your only the second Dodger fan I've run into. Too close to the Bay Area, I guess.

{48] We'll have to get together sometime to share the fun stories of driving through Washoe:)

Time to see if Loney will continue to hit when Mattingly is around. To my casual observation, it sure seems like having a retired left handed line drive hitting first baseman around to tutor a left handed line drive hitting first baseman sure makes a difference.

My friend have vacation homes/cabins in Eagle Lake, which I've been to a couple times. It's a huge, natural lake that is remote enough to be lightly used. It's a little over 5000' and the water is kinda cold - I used a shorty for water skiing, but I'm getting old and increasingly intolerant of the cold - but you can definitely swim in it, and it's quiet and peaceful there. (Never camped there though.)

Burney Falls is certainly a beautiful sight and my fingertip confirms that the water is chilly!

I feel it's important to distinguish the ways a pitcher can not win. Ismael Valdes, for example. He never was a winner because he was such a wussy closet boy. His teammates were so disgusted with his wussiness that they were willing to sacrifice their own statistics to make sure the Dodgers never scored when he pitched. At least I'm pretty sure that's what Rick Monday et al said at the time.

In 2007, 11.2 percent of quality starts were of the 6 IP, 3 ER variety. (261 of 2,324)

Another bit of drivel heard recently... our starters are 19-31 and the bullpen is 15-7. This is presented as evidence of some kind of defect in the rotation.

Big trout in Eagle Lake. Last time I was there they had just had a pretty big fire. Lots of charred wood.

Go Blue! I'm off to the stadium to see the Minotaur live for the first time. Glad to see LaRoche's in the lineup too.

Dodgers and Indians! Weird!

Some good news as the Twins have a 6-0 lead on the D'Backs in the 4th.

In my fantasy league, we use quality starts as a scoring category instead of wins. We just started doing it this year, and it's been a big success. The correlation between QS and W's is almost 1:1, and it eliminates wins thanks to big offense, vultured wins by relievers, and bullpen shenanigans.

Count me a fan of the QS.

The problem with the minimum quality start is that it doesn't really sound like that great of a start. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just talking perception. Personally, I'd like to see the requirement for a quality start extended to 7 innings.

The problem with wins is the middle reliever, and particularly the different rules for starters and relievers.

I think the proper way to measure these is as a ratio, QS:W. I'd also suggest a line of W-L-QS.

For relievers I think a ratio of BS:W is also something worth looking at.

#27 Matt Kemp, The Bison, Tougher Than a Robot Made Of Nails, rounding a base near you ... soon. Fasten your seatbelts Cleveland Indians!

The usual Borders I go to doesn't carry Variety either (I asked).

How come Firefox 3.0 has eliminated storing my sign-in cookie for the Toaster? Ken?

Yeah, I noticed it doesn't remember my login name anymore too.

64 65

the first time you reach a (now forgotten) page, you should see a "pop-up" asking you if you want firefox to remember your password

I don't get no popups

Preferred Option:

1. Eliminate "Win" statistic completely

Second Best Option:

2. Eliminate 5-inning minimum requirement for starting pitchers

Third Best Option:

3. Distinguish between "Starter Wins" and "Reliever Wins".

I have been out every night this week and my goose is cooked. I have just made the executive decision to skip my friend's concert in favor of staying in and watching the game. Of course, he's a Dodger fan so he should understand.

Is anybody else really excited about seeing Clayton Kershaw pitch to Grady Sizemore? Ahhhh!!

69 Phew. Livin' the high life, huh? ;)

No pop-up here, either.

I, on the other hand, stayed in and made crock-pot bbq.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/62wrfq

The Minotaur has captured my attention like no other. Every time that I see him pitch, I feel that I'm witnessing another steppingstone on a pathway that leads to a historic career.

65 I've had no problem with that, but Cool Iris seems to only work when it wants to with Firefox 3.

69-Yah. I go to plays and baseball games.

Ctrl-Shift-Del will open Clear Private Data box. After you delete your saved passwords, it should re-prompt you to save them, the next time.

I always delete the hidden user files when I install a major upgrade, after uninstalling the program (after backing up my bookmarks, searchbar plugins, and extensions). I'm all about fresh starts.

I assume LaRoche is going to a costume ball as Colonel Sanders, next week, and is just getting his facial hair in order.

Oh, and Ben Francisco and Ryan Garko both went to Servite and graduated the same year. I think Vin just said Diamond Bar.

76 "I'm all about fresh starts."

Good time to get rid of the pleated pants?

78- I'll lose the pleats when I decide to stop sitting down or putting things in my pockets. Until then, they're useful enough that I'm willing to tolerate D4P's disdain.

Scrappy throw to second.

After three days in Cincinnati, bringing the Dodgers good luck, I am starting to believe the Dodgers don't like me. Not only did Kershaw pitch the game before Cincy and now the game after, but Laroche didn't see one at bat during my three games there. I knew I should have gone to Detroit.

57 Eagle Lake Trout is its own species. Cooks up pink!

Wow, tough break for Kent.

I wonder whose bright idea that was.

Nice at bats by Kemp and Loney.

68 - The Mariners would be happy if wins were eliminated as a measure of the team's standings.

Kershaw dominates the batters in the second inning.

86
The Dodgers wouldn't be too displeased themselves.

How is Ned most likely to get rid of LaRoche:

1. Trade
2. DFA

3. Unprotected in Rule 5 draft

90 Doesn't apply -- LaRoche is already on the 40-man roster.

Lots of notes on the P-E blog by Kevin Pearson:

Andruw Jones (knee) took live batting for the first time and Torre said that Jones looked more comfortable than he has all season.

Nomar Garciaparra (calf) will be shut down for at least 10 more days and is not expected to return before the All-Star Break.

Communication problems: Hiroki Kuroda ... has been dealing with the (tendinitis) issue for 3 weeks, .... What makes this a major issue is the fact that he has been seeing the trainers for three weeks to get treatment and get medication but somehow there was a lack of communication to Joe Torre and Ned Colletti that this may have been a serious issue.

Add 92 "communication problems":
neither Torre or Colletti told Kuroda he was going on the DL. The player said he heard it from someone else not involved in the decision making process.

Hot night. I hope the Dodgers can hit a few out too.

Who's going to come back sooner:

1. Nomar
2. Godot

And now, something entirely different:

http://derbydolls.com/la/index.html

(I know one of the skaters.)

95 - 3. (Ivan de) Jesus.

95

Bell Bottoms

95 - Godot, but I hear he's already come and gone

Good spot for the K.

98 - come and gone, my friend.

Note to self: never let scareduck set me up on a blind date.

Nice recovery by the twenty year old.

was the HR Kershaw gave up a little high? It looked a little high from were I'm sitting but it definitely looked down the middle

...She was five foot six and two fifteen
A bleached-blonde mama
With a streak of mean
She knew how to knuckle
And she knew how to scuffle and fight

And the Roller Derby program said
That she was built like a 'frigerator with a head
The fans call her Tuffy
But all her buddies called her Spike

You know that I fell in love with a Roller Derby Queen
Round and round, oh round and round
The meanest hunk o' woman
That anybody ever seen
Down in the arena...

What are the odds that the Dodgers trade for Sabathia before the start of tomorrow night's game?

105 - that's why you shouldn't look at the tv when leaving the bar

102 - no, none of them have been blinded to my knowledge.

Unusual arm angle. Lucky for us Choi isn't in there.

Oh, to face Cliff Lee, with a black whole to boot.

Pamela Anderson is sitting about 8 rows from were I'm at.

108

but has anyone blinded you with science?

Of course, Feller has to be mentioned. Luckily I'm not that old.

108 That might have worked to Shimmin's advantage.

Does that mean part of her is only 7 rows away?

111 Dude, posting from DS! How old is she looking now?

112 - good heavens, Miss Nakamoto, you're beautiful! Er, uh, no, why do you ask?

114- Hello. Is it me you're looking for?

116 - I don't think you can answer that without a core sample.

104
Belt high, middle of the plate. They gave a slo-mo overhead view of the bat hitting the ball just in front of the plate, with Kelly releasing his right hand just after impact getting very nice extension and staying back, stepping on his right foot. I commented to myself, "Bison, swing like that!".

115 - or 9 rows away?

119

winner .... quote of the night!

(and that core has got to be REALLLY cold)

92 , 93 Maybe we hired DePodesta as our Japanese translator.

121

her mere presence causes a rip in the space/mind continuum

Vinny mentions Casey Blake is from Wichita State.

That school is dead to me:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dreifda01.shtml

What insurance is that Yogi?

Making a commercial that they never stop playing.

Clayton cant just lay the ball in there 2-0. Twice they just plastered a 2-0 fastball over the heart.

Does the Minotaur only throw his change-up to righties?

If Pam were up on pointe shoes and given a good twist, would she spin forever?

121 is the correct answer.

She still looks nice I guess.

128 Pretty much.

Pff. Loney would have taken three.

The old man hits a stand up double to the wall in right center!

in 11 days Pam turns 41 ...

107 - you know the funny thing is I had that album on my iPod and I had never listened to it until you brought up those lyrics. That's pretty terrific.

I wonder if the Indians' RF is avoided a lot?

Old Grumpy! If Lebron-Sizemore is the most physically gifted city combination in pro sports, Kent and Vlade #2 must be the least.

Can actors and actresses still get away with lying about their ages? Or does that not work, anymore?

Hey everybody, Andy's Up!

139 Only Caribbean ballplayers can do that.

Andy stung it.

Lee throws strikes 68% of time (league average 62%)

132 Since all I know about baseball is that it and jazz are the two best things in life, can you explain to me why lefties throw change-ups more to righties more, Id be much obliged. Someone needs to tell Andy a funny joke, hes looked mad all game

124 - i think it depends on which way she's facing

139 - it worked for Satchel Paige, right?

139 - imdb says not really.

Vin - "riding the elevator from a two run home run, to a strikeout."

what is gameday saying that pitch to K shoppach was?

Has DT already appropriately 'buked and scorned this nonsense from Rosenthal? (Linked at BTF)

"As bad as center fielder Andruw Jones was...the Dodgers were better offensively when he was healthy.

[Jones' last start May 18; record 22-21. 12-17 since then. 4.9 runs game before; 3.7 after.]

"Part of the drop-off, obviously, is attributable to the loss of Furcal to a back injury on May 5. But the increased workload for Andre Ethier and Matt Kemp in Jones' absence has not improved the performances of either young outfielder.

"Ethier's OPS before Jones went down was .804; since then it's .776. Kemp's OPS was .793 before Jones' injury; since then it's .767.

"The decreases might not be dramatic, but they're enough to suggest that both Ethier and Kemp benefited from the competition for playing time that existed when Jones was healthy. Then again, they also could reflect the typical inconsistency of young players."

--Note that last sentence, which manages the difficult trick of simultaneously completely coping out from the initial bogus argument AND introducing a new, unsubstantiated cliche!

Really masterful work from Rosenthal...

Re: 149

Changeup

WWSH

150

His job is easier when trades happen. Which team has lots of money and lots of young talent other teams covet?

He just wants the Dodgers to do something so he will actually have something to write.

150 - not one of his better pieces, that's for sure. And yes, it's been trampled underfoot previously.

150 All that needs to be said is that there are more anonymous and higher-paying jobs where he can be a complete tool.

What's with this Lee guy? Bring back the Reds!

144 I might guess that a lefty considers a curveball a better choice than a changeup to a fellow lefty.

Lee is almost always throwing the first two pitches strikes, and the next two balls (low). The Dodger batters need to attack the first pitch.

I'm going to have a really good giggle if Andruw Jones returns from this injury and begins hitting baseballs over the fence at a rapid rate.

It'll be like, psyyyyyych!

Orenduff pitched (sorta) tonight...

1.2IP 7H 7ER 2bb 4k

I don't think he should pitched in the Majors just yet...

144 , 156 - presumably a change will drop off the table and fade away from a righty where it's easier to get a curve to break away from a lefty. Or maybe it's backwards. But I do remember that the point is that one type of pitch will break a different way depending on the handedness of the batter.

Ooof, 0-2 to a BB ... to Jamey Carroll.

Scott Proctor, please sit down.

There's the change-ups. C'mon Kid save us from the Proctologist

It seems like every game I watch, Scott Proctor is always warming up in the bullpen.

Booooooo

Kershaw can be an average MLB pitcher even when he's struggling a little (ever since his first start)--so hard to watch, though...

Well, Kershaw is not going to lead us into the promised land this year. Hopefully he follows the same path as Bills. He could be a monster at 22.

Take the question mark off the post title.

164 after a season or so you get used to it...

Torre loves Proctor...

Sigh.

Blah, add two more earned runs to Kershaw's era.

167 - Sounds good to me.

the only thing I ask of Proctor is NOT to leave his curvball up.

To be fair, this is the right situation to use Proctor. Its not like we're showing any sign of scoring runs

I hope Proctor eschews S. Choo's bat.

I like Ardoin behind the plate.

175 - shoo, Choo.

"For Joe Torre and the rest of the frustrating staff..." A verbal slip, no doubt, but an accurate one.

The woman in the Indians jersey looked like she was about to disrobe.

A valiant effort by Scott Proctor, but a very predictable result (inherited base runner scores).

Man Proctor is the worst reliever ever.

But he struck out the side and he gave up only a single.

11-4

Kershaw and Proctor pass by one another on the baseball highway. Kershaw heading up the mountain and Proctor speeding down hill.

God, its a shame Pee Wee doesn't play in LF everyday. Such a confident hitter.

183 - ??

Kershaw arguably has pitched well enough to have a 11-3 minors/majors record this season (with a no-decision for the May 22 game).

Proctor appeared in 83 games in 2006 and 2007...this year shouldn't be much of a surprise.

it's so weird to hear that Pierre was sitting on a fast ball. and two inches to the left and he's probably standing on second or third.

Juan Pierre: The Fielder's Cherce.

That is the craziest single I've ever seen. Is that an infield single because it hit the pitcher first?

The old man is hot!

Run expectancy with first and third and no outs is about 1.5. So Proctor was about 33% above average tonight.

191 - that's not all that crazy, guys hit it off the pitcher all the time

Rats.

Five lousy feet. I hate baseball.

163 That may be the funniest nickname for a ballplayer I've ever heard.

Yes, I'm easily amused.

Loney, missed it by thattt much.

Not to rub it in, but it was actually something like one centimeter. I would not be suprised in the least if Loney was far and away our most productive player at the end of the season.

197

My girlfriend and I call im "Proctorologist.."

197 - I only wish the Robot Made Outta Nails had enough currency.

Somebody needs to fire Cliff Lee. He's not hitting enough.

NPUT

201 - well, if the NL would just join the 21st century and hire part time players...

If I had to guess without looking, I would guess that in the last month, we must have matched the Diamondback result for that day about 70% of the time.

Vin's the best.

Back to those Dodgers we know and love this season.

What happened to everyone?

Oh, they NPUT'ed.