how is it that like half of the brewers starting lineup played for the raptors? we let hardy, sheets, fielder, and hall all go?

Watching the video, it seems the pitcher was looking for a fight. He was like 50 feet off the mound and on the first base line trying to get into Gordon's face.

Ogden used to be affiliated with the Brewers from '96-'02.

1 - Ogden was a Brewers affiliate through 2002.

From last thread:

89 I never mentioned Longoria specifically but how can you expect our long-term offense to improve when you do nothing but draft pitchers in the first round? A prime example would be when the Mets took David Wright with the 38th pick in 2001. Sure your going to miss out on the big-hype Longoria types but by waiting until the 2nd or 3rd round to draft an offensive player, you are certainly losing out on potential draft picks that could fit that "slugger" mold.

3 Beat me to it.
The Dodgers Pioneer League affiliate was Great Falls, before switching to Ogden in 2003.

3 4 ah makes sense, thanks

5

Last two drafts, Dodgers have drafted a bunch of behemoth, high ceiling, left handed power hitters in Lambo, Gallagher, Russell, Cesares, Calfee and in 2005 draft in Orr and Josh Bell.

2 - Unfortunately, though, the physical contact starts with Gordon shoving through an umpire's back to get at the pitcher.

We need Withrow and Ethan Martin on the mound already. This is getting ridiculous.

9

watching it again... the opposing team's pitcher runs 50 feet to meet Gordon on the base line and then pushes him first.

8 Orr was in the 2006 draft

11 - You're right, I didn't see that.

12

Oops my bad.

I guess my point is, White believes you can hit the jackpot on first round pitchers and after the first round, it seems like the talent level for pitchers drops off drastically.

In regards to hitters, he really likes to pluck his hitters in the upper middle rounds. We'll see if it works. Only recently has he been doing this in bulk though.

9. The opposing pitcher shoved hime first, then the ump got in the way. That's what I saw.

I suspect it's still problematic for Gordon that he made contact with the ump, though.

Tony Jackson has more:

http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2008/07/tempers-flare-i.html

16

Most likely. If I was in Gordon's shoes and the pitcher hits me on the 2nd pitch of the game, and then runs up to me and shoves me...I'm probably going to do something back.

Silly boys. The game recap was amusing, though.

18 - Though I presume Gordon said something to make the pitcher come running, I'm not arguing that point.

8 I could be wrong but the last time I see that the Dodgers picked a position player in the top 30 was in '98 with Bubba Crosby (23rd pick) if you exclude Loney.

20

I could see some name calling happening :)

"if it's like the league office of most minor leagues, probably consists of a desk, a phone and a fax machine in some guy's basement" -- who's he calling a blogger!

21

Dewitt was a top 30 pick. And why would you exclude Loney?

21 Why are we excluding Loney?

Damn these slow fingers!

Maybe because Loney wasn't a pure position player.

27

So? A lot of prep players are two way stars in high school.

28 I was just pointing out a possibility why 21 left him out. Loney wouldn't be excluded from my list.

I know it is because of my pacifistic tendencies, but it makes me sad to hear all the fans cheering on such behavior.

24 Loney was originally drafted as a pitcher wasn't he? When did the Dodgers decide that he was a 1st baseman? For some reason the ESPN draft board doesn't list Dewitt as a 1st rounder (sorry I missed it). Don't get me wrong, stockpiling pitching in your farm system is a good thing but almost entirely bypassing offensive prospects in the 1st round seems problematic to me.

88-from last thread - BH - Yes, I was there when Garv mentioned Lopes and his challenges.
btw bhsportsguy - was it you that asked the first question to Garvey regarding Reggie Jackson's hip play?

Just wondering because we never got to talk on that day, I was there the whole time.

The draft is kind of a crapshoot if you ask me. The team that picks 1st picking 1st in every round is just somewhat ridiculous to me. The whole slotting system is even more ridiculous because it's not enforced across the board. This is why players like Porcello can slide so far based off of what he said, rather than drafting the best player available. This is the same thing that happens every year and it's taking a lot of the competetive balance out of the system. In my opinion, Baseball's biggest weakness is it's terrible Chairman. He is gutless and has the wrong personell that he praises, yet let's the union get away with murder. example: If one were to be suspended in basketball, the suspension is held up. In baseball, the suspension gets appealed and usually, a lesser sentence handed down. That is how screwed up the syste has gotten. So undoubtably, I will guess in this instance that Gordon will get a heavier suspension than the opposing pitcher even though he didn't cross the first base line.

Those boys are just learning what it takes to be a major leaguer. Larry Bowa approves.

31

Dodgers drafted Loney as a position player. He was a very good pitcher in high school and there was a split between scouts on whether he would be a pitcher or a positional player when he became a professional. In the Dodgers' eyes, he was a positional player and he never pitched professionally.

31 No, Dodgers drafted him as a first baseman.

There's really not that many position players we could have taken early that would have helped our team more than what we got in the White era. In 2003 Quentin, Barton, Adam Jones, and Saltalamacchia went after our pick, but we'd have to give up Bills to get them, and only Jones is really in Bills' league. After that the only even decent position player we missed out on from the first round is when we took Elbert over Josh Fields.

From the last thread;

Brett Myers optioned to AAA

I hope the Phillies didn't have his wife deliver the news.

Does it make me a bad person for thinking that was the funniest comment of the day?

Wasn't White mildly ridiculed for drafting Loney as a 1B and not a pitcher?

31

I don't think its about a systematic approach of never drafting an offensive prospect in the 1st round. I just think its Logan White going with who he believes is the best player available.

37 I think 30 of 30 GMs would take Chad Billingsley over Adam Jones in hindsight.

39 - Yep.

40. I guess the flip side can be argued with Martin this year being both a pitcher and a position player. We drafted him as a position player (as announced) then turned him into a pitcher, when scounts had the same feeling about him being versitle as both a player and a pitcher. All and all, I'm pretty happy with the White drafts, I just wish some of his promising players fullfill the potential he sees in them when they are drafted.

37

I would still probably take Elbert over Josh Fields in hindsight.

And Billingsley over all of them.

Out of the top 30 picks over the past 20 years (i.e. 600 picks), 299 pitchers have been drafted, along with 9 two-way players.

41 He had a .968 OPS at AAA in a pitchers park at age 21, and plays good defense. He's going to be one of the best players in baseball in a couple years.

18 - As usual, if the umpires had some foresight, they would not have let things get so far, they should have ejected one of the pitchers from the previous game just to put a stop to the target practice on the Ogden hitters. I mean couldn't they see trouble coming? Then the pitcher is the total aggressor and the Dodger affiliate gets more guys punished. Next series, the Ogden pitchers should take matters into their own hands and get in the first shot!! Obviously the umpires are clueless! They should have been protecting their own at least in the second game once they saw the umps were oblivious to the target practice their hitters were taking. Some Ogden pitcher should have channeled Drysdale and dusted one of theirs!!

43

Apparently Selig messed up and announced him wrong. After the draft, some quotes from Dodgers FO saying Martin is going to be a pitcher.

46

But Chad is his Royal Thighness though.

38 Phillies to Brett Myers:

Boom! Outta here!

46. Hindsight is 20/20. I'd rather have Bills and been able to nab Hamilton from the rule 5 draft.

And I thought that Gordon was Strange. He actually sounds pretty normal. The confusion around the higher minor leagues pales in comparison to what happens in the "lower minors", considering media coverage and general obfuscation.

I'm not saying Jones will definately be better than Bills, just that he has the chance to.

Any line-up yet for tonight?

47 - We don't have nearly enough details - at least on what I've seen - to conclude that "the umpires are clueless."

Hindsight allows me to say that if we had signed David Price, Joe Savery, Alex White and Kyle Blair, we wouldn't have to worry about pitching for the foreseeable future.

From last thread, no one answered and I was under the same impression as CodyS, could someone please answer?

I may not understand fully, but I thought ERA+ and OPS+ could be used to directly compare teams in the AL & NL, as the comparisons are AL team to all of AL & NL team to all of NL. So if the NL sends a pitcher up and the AL sends a DH up, you can't directly compare team OPS and ERA, but you can compare team OPS+ and ERA+

35 36 Thanks I didn't know that, I looked at Loney's minor league numbers but for some reason thought that he was originally drafted as a pitcher.

37 Thats a good point, granted some of the position guys may still pan out but the names you threw out there really put things into perspective.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but it seems to me that the biggest need our team has had for the past 5 years or so is power hitting, so it was frustrating for me to see that we consistently seemed to go the pitcher route. I stand corrected which is why I initially brought it up (I couldn't see the forest through the trees).

53 Bills isn't much of a hitter, but Andruw was abysmal before he went on the DL, and can we be sure it was his injury?

0 All in all, five Raptors and four Chukars were sent to the showers, resulting in multiple positions being shuffled and pitchers finding their way into the batting order.

(Note: MILB.com lists six ejections for Ogden: Bjornson, Gordon, Lyndon Poole, Kyle Russell, Travis Vetters and Brian Ruggiano.)

The Ogden Standard-Examiner says the same thing; Bjornson is the pitching coach, and not good enough to be a Raptor :)

To add on, I also think its comical that Loaiza's salary for this year would have paid for all of them and then some.

53 Pitchers the quality of Bills are extremely hard to come by, whereas, White was able to get Kemp in a much later round. It seems to me that white believes that his farm system should develop athletes with plus tools, and use his higher picks on pitchers with rare upside.

58 I think it's a fair thing to wonder about. But what was said above is true, White has basically been going for who he perceived to be the best player available at the time. Many of the clearcut best position players in each draft were going ahead of the Dodgers' pick, though as pointed out above too we could've had a few good ones instead of Billingsley, but I won't complain about that. I'm sure White does love projectably talented pitchers, though. And they have been making up some ground the past couple of years in position players with power.
Fair thing to wonder about though.

58

I definitely agree with you on the lack of power hitting. I was actually optimistic that this year, Laroche, Kemp, Loney and Martin would all provide us with around 20 homeruns.

So far...it doesn't look like it.

56 i don't think anyone around here needs hindsight on that one. I think we all have been frustrated watching the Dodgers bow to the slotting system.I'm sure you knew it at the time.

64 I keep waiting for The Bison to have that month where he hits 10 home runs.

PROGRESS!

Kemp, CF
Young, LF
Martin, C
Kent, 2B
Loney, 1B
LaRoche, 3B
Ethier, RF
Maza, SS
Kershaw, P

67 Nice:)

...er, from Diamond.

67 - Well I'm going to enjoy this game a lot tonight. Excellent lineup!

I don't want to hear a single complaint about today's line-up, k? :)

Kemp, CF
Young, LF
Martin, C
Kent, 2B
Loney, 1B
LaRoche, 3B
Ethier, RF
Maza, SS
Kershaw, P

(from PE blog)

Darnit! I need a faster computer. Or brain.

71
Who's that clown batting fourth?

Insert Furcal in there for Maza, which we may very well do by this weekend, and it's the Dodgers best line-up all year. Even with Maza it's the best one in weeks.

It bears repeating 'cause it's THAT GOOD.

I am loving this lineup

55 - I was commenting on the umpires for that particular series - taking into consideration that four Ogden Raptors had been hit previously in the first two games, the chance for an incident are going to exponentially increase on the next hit batsman. Didn't the umpires give any warnings, it seems like something was going on between these teams, at least on one end. Though I'm not sure why the Ogden pitchers were not retaliatory. Did the Chakuras have a staff with a reputation for wildness like Nuke LaRoosh from Bull Durham or Wild Thing from Major League? Lately, in games I've seen, more than 1 hit bat man in an inning normally raises a red flag with an umpire(last night Dodger game being a rare exception). Where were these other Ogden players hit? I mean the 5th one - the pitcher wanted to go all Nolan Ryan on Gordon like he was Robin Ventura.

73 Oh shaddup!

I don't have a problem with Kent batting 4th. Right now no one is a clear cut choice for cleanup hitter.

64 That was where I overestimated this year's team as well. We all thought (well most of us) that Kemp and Loney would hit .300+ with 20+ HR which they still might but as you said it doesn't look to promising. On a brighter note Arizona's kids have come back to earth and Colorado has been banged up all year so we're down but not out. We may end up like Tampa Bay's team this year soon but as you can see they had an awful lot of growing pains before they gelled.

Diamond also added:
>>Joe Torre hasn't spoken today yet, but did mention weeks ago about the possibility of Matt Kemp hitting leadoff. "Kemp has the footspeed, but needs to make more contact," Torre said then. "He would be the one just off his tools."<<

I think this lineup should have it's own post because it is THAT good.

73. Kent usually heats up in the summer months, normally a lot at the end. Let's just hope he heats up a little earlier this year and peaks a little higher than normal.

64 58 I was actually optimistic that this year, Laroche, Kemp, Loney and Martin would all provide us with around 20 homeruns.

Yep, I also had Kemp, Loney and Martin penciled in for 20-25 homeruns. I didn't count on LaRoche because I figured that when the dust settled Torre would hand the 3rd base job to Nomar.

77 - But that's my point. You don't know the answer to the questions you ask, so how do you know the umpires didn't do the right thing?

Nice lineup, 1-0 Dodgers after the first batter in the game...Book it!

Does a player have to hit 10 home runs in the first half of the season to finish with 20? Martin, Kent, Kemp and Ethier are all in range.

Well, whatever happens, it would be nice to see Kershaw get some run support for once. Especially given the short porch vs. lefties thing...

47 "As usual, if the umpires had some foresight, they would not have let things get so far, they should have ejected one of the pitchers from the previous game just to put a stop to the target practice on the Ogden hitters. I mean couldn't they see trouble coming?"

None of us has any idea whether the previous hit batters were intentional. But seeing as how these pitchers are mostly kids in only their second week of pro ball, I tend to doubt they were. And an umpire has no business ejecting anyone for a HBP unless he's positive it was intentional. Pitchers do have the right to pitch inside. An umpire's job description doesn't include warding off trouble by ejecting someone who may or may not have done anything wrong.

Roy Oswalt, a pitcher who usually has good control, hit two consecutive Dodger hitters last night. Is there a chance it was intentional? Of course not. The idea is preposterous. So, say the same thing happens again tonight. Is that automatic grounds for ejection?

If Berroa would be allowed to bat 4th he might get an RBI someday. It would be a shame for him to end his NL career without an RBI.

I wouldn't get to geeked up over this lineup. Wandy is pitching well and we are fielding a one eyed center fielder, a guy named pee wee, a bunch of kids, a washed up HOF, a career minor leaguer, and a tired catcher.

72 underdog needs to learn the art of two-handed typing ;)

89 ...and we've got a curmudgeon coaching third and a guy that did the Baseball Boogie coaching first! No wonder we can't win.

It feels good to put your best lineup out there and we'll see what happens.

89 "a one eyed center fielder", a crazy eyed first baseman, ...

89 Shirley you can't be serious!

James Loney's competition for best Dodger first-round draft pick ever, position players category:

1. Paul Konerko
2. Mike Scioscia

(Yes, I declare Repko out of the running.)

The best Dodger first-round draft pick pitcher is Bob Welch.

Chris Gwynn demands a recount.

yes what a lineup!

From Tony Jackson: Matt Kemp leading off

His .331 OBP and his 81 strikeouts in 306 plate appearances wouldn't seem to make him a very likely candidate, but here is Torre's thinking: As important as it is for a leadoff man to reach base, it is equally important to the opposing pitcher to keep him OFF base. The last thing they want to do is walk the leadoff man. So Wandy Rodriguez figures to be throwing a lot of strikes, and that is when Kemp becomes dangerous. Most of his strikeouts seem to come on pitches out of the zone. And yes, Torre said he will make a point of pointing this out to Kemp before the game. Kemp said his only previous experience leading off came in the Arizona Fall League, where he played in 2005 and hit a walkoff homer to win the championship.

98 - As if this were a sudden revelation.

95 Steve Garvey is the Dodgers' best first-round pick, albeit with an asterisk. He was chosen in the first round of the June Secondary Phase draft in 1968. (Back then, the draft was actually divided into several different drafts, each with different eligibility requirements. If I understand things correctly, which I may not, the secondary phase basically consisted of junior college players.)

Nothing against Mike Scioscia but it is hard to believe that he was a 1st round draft choice. He looked like a guy who had to earn his way to the top. I'm shocked to find out he took the gravy train?

98 Funny how they consider Kemp's .331 OBP a detriment to his batting leadoff, while at the same time lauding JP and his .327 OBP as crucial at the top of the lineup.

Jason Repko has 11 career HRs; the last one was hit off Wandy Rodriguez, the first off current Astro bullpen denizen Oscar Villarreal. Chan Ho Park and Esteban Loaiza are also on his list.

98 Tony Jackson has some nerve.

Kemp not only has a better OBP than Pierre, but has also been almost as effective a base stealer. Kemp has 16 steals and 4 CS; Pierre has 35 and 7. However, these stats, rather nonsensically, don't include pickoffs. IIRC, Pierre has been picked off twice this year and Kemp once. So the actual numbers are probably 16 out of 21 (76%) for Kemp, 35 out of 44 (80%) for Pierre. Both excellent.

Win Probabilities for today's game, along with over/under lines.

AccuScore: Hou-62.00%, 9.8
LV Hilton: Hou-57.45%, 8.5
My Simulator: Hou-59.54%, 8.18

The over/under of 6.5 runs in the A's/Angels game really sticks out to me. The Angels have only scored 2 runs in the last four games, but it's rare you see an over/under this low, especially when the average runs scored in games that Harden has pitched in is 8.3 and Santana has pitched in is 8.4. Vegas is on the "no offense" bandwagon.
vr, Xei

I hope this lineup explodes and sustains the explosion for weeks.

102 I threw a comment to that effect on his blog entry.

105 Kemp is slumping but still putting up better numbers than the DBacks leadoff guy (except for the 13-7 HR disadvantage):

Kemp 2008: .284 .331 .436 .767
Chris Young 2008: .231 .301 .426 .727

105 Plus catchers don't quake in fear with coaches yelling, "PACKRAT", when Pierre is heading homeward.

Yee-haw! Get Furcal back at SS, slip everyone down a spot in the order, and then look out below!

87
If we somehow entice the Baron does that bring you into the fold? It there room enough for two producers on a basketball team?

77 Sorry it took so long, no I did not ask that question but I asked the very first question to Mr. Lasorda about the first pitch in the 1977 season and since I felt bad no one had asked him a question yet, I asked Bill Russell about his hit in the 1978 NLCS.

I have already promised to take a friend to the 80's lunch so this time I will be on the look out for you, saw a few people with that encyclopedia.

Who will be at the eighties lunch? Franklin Stubbs? Tim Leary? German Rivera? Ralph Bryant? The entire Angels coaching staff?

101 I really think that after the 1968 and 1969 drafts, the Dodgers did not do such a hot job.

When asked to grade the drafts of the 1990s and 2000s, BaseballAmerica.com ranked the 2002 Dodger draft second to Montreal's 2000 draft (Grady Sizemore, Jason Bay and Cliff Lee), and the 2003 draft fourth behind the Red Sox's 2005 draft (albeit the Red Sox had a bunch of picks in the top 50 that year).

I don't want to hear a single complaint about today's line-up, k?

Kemp isn't exactly an ideal leadoff hitter. In fact, he's a pretty bad choice.

Among things that Baseball People think matter in the leadoff spot, he's pretty good, which is to say he's fast.

Among things that actually matter in the leadoff spot, he's pretty bad, which is to say that he doesn't see a lot of pitches and doesn't get on base an awful lot.

All that being said, it's still a good sign that Torre is even willing to entertain the idea of Kemp batting leadoff. Now: if he'd only entertain the same idea with respect to Martin...

113 I'm assuming a Pedro, its the same weekend as the D-Back series probably so that they can do some type of pre-game thing with some guy who hit a home run in the World Series.

It's going to be fun watching this lineup tonight.

Re: 20 home runs

It wouldn't require an other worldly performance for Kent, Kemp, Loney , Ethier, or Martin to reach 20 home runs this year. They just need to get hot and stay hot. Even Jones can do it if he gets white hot.
I'd be happy if one of them can do it this year. If more than one of them can hit 20 or more home runs this year that will mean things will have gotten a lot better for the offense.

114
I had no idea Jason Bay was drafted by the Expos. Helluva draft for them.

Airport WiFi is pretty fast, at least at SAN.

113
I wonder what Alex Trevino, Enos Cabell, Phil Garner, and Bill Madlock are up to these days.

I hope Alejandro Pena is there. He was darn good for them in the 1980s.

118 Boy that Nats is pretty good with Sizemore, Lee and Bay, oh that's right, thanks Omar Minaya.

115 Who would be a better choice to lead off? Martin, obviously, but Martin's also the best #3 hitter we have, the best cleanup hitter, the best #2 hitter, the best #5, and on down the line.

I don't see any logical reason why seeing a lot of pitches is a desired characteristic of a leadoff hitter. (And don't say because you're more likely to get on base. It's understood that OBP is the most important thing. But given 2 guys with equivalent OBPs, why would the guy who takes more pitches be the better leadoff hitter? I see no rational reason.)

121
Taking pitches is good for all hitters because it drives up pitch counts.

I've been told that it's especially good for leadoff hitters because it allows other hitters to "see the pitcher's repertoire".

102 Precisely. Kemp has more power than Pierre, a better OBP, and possibly more speed. But Juan looks much more like a lead-off guy. And this says nothing about outfield ability to hold a guy from scoring or taking an extra base.

This line-up looks great, but you have to try a line-up for at least a week before you even begin to weed out random effects! How often do we run out the same line-up?

121

Which is why we should work on cloning Martin for all 9 positions

122 Agreed on the first point, although that doesn't relate to leadoff hitting. But the second one is probably a myth.

I still think Loney is our ideal leadoff guy.

But the second one is probably a myth

Possibly so.

From what I can see, Martin's greatest offensive asset (by far) is his ability to get on base. His power (.443 SLG, .136 IsoP) really aren't all that impressive, especially for a "middle of the order" hitter. I think he's even better suited for leadoff than for 3-5.

125 Pitchers often change their plan of attack in the bigs and I think a leadoff guy working deeper into a count in his first AB is beneficial to his ballclub, it allows everybody else to see how the pitcher is attacking the strike zone that given day. Often times you can see guys like Loney timing his approach off of a pitcher long before he's on deck. That said, I hope Kemp hits the first pitch of the game into that stupid train in left.

127 On most teams, sure. But on this team, he's also the best we've got for 3-5. I guess the question of whether he's "better suited" for leadoff or 3-5 depends on one's opinion on which spot in the batting order is most important.

NPUT

Interesting posts about White's drafts. At what point, if ever, does player development go into the analysis of drafts? Seems logical to me that not all player development staffs are created equal, and thereofore, Draftee A might be better off than Draftee B if he were in a different farm system. I'd like to believe that talent rises to the top, no matter what farm system a player enters, but that seems a bit counterintuitive. Opportunity and teaching have to count for something. Are the Dodgers strong in player development? Were they stronger when Terry Collins was in charge? Does Watson have a strong background in player development? From what I gleaned, he more of a scout than a teacher/development man. Were the Braves really good at player development in the 1990s or was it strictly the talent that they pumped into the system?

128 That left-field wall really is an incredible target. I wonder if anyone has spoken with the young LH hitters (Ethier, Loney, DeWitt, even Young) about the need to go the other way during this series.