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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Is the Dodger Front Office Any More Dysfunctional Than the National Media Covering It?
2008-07-10 12:37
by Jon Weisman

Here are two separate issues:

1) There's X amount of dysfunction in the Dodger front office.
2) X amount of dysfunction is having Y amount of effect on the team's ability to be the best it can be.

Z what I mean?

The Dodgers may be prudent, or they may be paralyzed, or some combination of the two. Whatever the case, inaction is not by definition a bad thing, any more than action is. If reasonable or even unreasonable minds disagree on making a move, maybe the move shouldn't be made.

Knocking a pitching-rich, offensively challenged team for not trading a hitter for CC Sabathia or Jack Wilson needs to be supported by more than rants of "Who's running the show?" The Dodgers are a difficult trading partner? Good, if that means they're going to be less stupid than they have sometimes been in the past.

I don't know all the details of the past week, but I do know this. The Dodgers exist to win baseball games and please their fans. They do not exist to make other teams' or other journalists' lives more interesting.

Comments (235)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-07-10 13:01:02
1.   fanerman
The Dodgers are a difficult trading partner? Good, if that means they're going to be less stupid than they have sometimes been in the past.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. I just hope the FO doesn't react to this "criticism" and make some "easy" trades just to shake off the stigma.

2008-07-10 13:05:09
2.   Dane Bramage
Thank you, Jon!

I'm far from being a Dodgers "yes-man", but sometimes the journalists scratching and crawling over one another to manufacture their stories just gets my dander up!

2008-07-10 13:05:18
3.   silverwidow
From the last thread about Blue Jays scouting our Low A team: I think it is regarding A.J. Burnett. He's probably a target right now to replace Penny.
2008-07-10 13:06:27
4.   Eric Enders
I'm with Jon. I actually like the dysfunction, if it's going to paralyze the team into not making major, stupid moves. I'm glad there's someone around to save Colletti from himself.

Also, while we may have been skeptical about this earlier, we've now heard enough times from enough different sources that there's a divide in the Dodgers front office. I think that instead of rejecting that, we should probably now admit that there's likely something to it.

I can't wait for August 1. Rosenthal and, to a lesser degree, Plaschke and Simers, seem determined to goad the Dodgers into trading away the young talent. Those guys appear to be trying to influence the news, become the news, rather than report the news.

2008-07-10 13:07:10
5.   bhsportsguy
3 No, I am pretty sure it was for a potential move of one of their shortstops, they would to get some low-level prospects and hope the Dodgers agree to pay the entire salary.
2008-07-10 13:07:12
6.   Bob Timmermann
I believe the Dodgers have been difficult trading partners ever since the imposition of the Colletti-Smoot Tariff.
2008-07-10 13:08:14
7.   Bob Timmermann
My Blue Jays source says that they want a shortstop in return for Burnett. The Jays don't like any of the current bunch.
2008-07-10 13:08:54
8.   Bob Timmermann
And my Blue Jays source is a real person and he really has to remain anonymous.

I feel so Rosenthalian.

2008-07-10 13:10:02
9.   bhsportsguy
7 So my guess would be right on, ha-ha, take that Rosenthal.
2008-07-10 13:12:14
10.   CodyS
2 Yeah, it sure is sad to see all these newspapers going out of business. Where will drummed up irrational stories find vast readerships in the future?
2008-07-10 13:14:17
11.   StolenMonkey86
To trade Lowe, we'd need someone who's useful now for Colletti to be interested. Who else could we get with Marcus Thames?
2008-07-10 13:14:27
12.   Bob Timmermann
The internet publishes far more drummed up irrational stories than print media ever did.
2008-07-10 13:14:34
13.   scareduck
The "National" needs to be stripped from the title of this post, considering the Times' columnistas.
2008-07-10 13:15:24
14.   StolenMonkey86
10 - "You provide the prose poems and I'll provide the war." Or the 6 player trade.
2008-07-10 13:19:37
15.   Eric Enders
Let me preface this comment by saying I don't think the Dodgers should have traded for Sabathia, and I'm glad they didn't.

However, I don't for a second buy the argument that most people have used to argue against it -- and which Jon refers to above. The fact that the Dodger pitching has been excellent does not mean that another great starting pitcher wouldn't improve the team as much as a hitter would.

The thing about acquiring a hitter is that unless it's a second baseman or shortstop, the margin by which you'd be improving the offense is slim. If you acquired a player at any other position, that guy would be displacing a player who's already average or above. (I am ignoring third base here, where the Dodgers have an average or above-average hitter and are simply refusing to play him.)

It's not true that if you already have good pitching, you can't improve it even more. Since there are five starters, ANY team almost ALWAYS needs starting pitching. If we replaced our worst starter -- Penny/Stults, say -- with Sabathia, that would likely improve the rotation by the same amount as acquiring a star hitter to replace a decent hitter. Then you have the added benefit of moving your deposed starter to the pen and getting rid of your worst bullpen guy, so the pen gets improved too.

It is not remotely true that a team needs to be well-balanced between pitching and hitting to win. This is one of those baseball myths, and it simply isn't true. All a team needs is a certain number of good players. Whether those are pitchers or hitters -- whether they produce runs or prevent them -- is largely irrelevant, as long as there's playing time for all of them. We'd win just as many games if we decreased our runs allowed by 5%, as we would if we increased our runs scored by 5%. The fact that we have good pitching already doesn't mean we didn't need Sabathia.

2008-07-10 13:20:09
16.   scareduck
Knocking a pitching-rich, offensively challenged team for not trading a hitter

Wouldn't they trade a pitcher?

2008-07-10 13:22:01
17.   Linkmeister
12 "The internet publishes far more drummed up irrational stories than print media ever did."

Well of course it does! Pixels are cheaper than newsprint!

2008-07-10 13:24:20
18.   68elcamino427
Given the results that Colletti has produced thus far - would you trust him implicitly to make any more major moves with your team and payroll or would you micro-manage him?
2008-07-10 13:25:36
19.   DXMachina
12 But irrational print media stories are more likely to be believed, because they're in the paper, so they must be true.
2008-07-10 13:27:31
20.   Jon Weisman
15 - Oh, I agree with you Eric. Certainly there's a case to be made for a Sabathia trade. But saying it's desirable regardless of what the cost is, or that the choice not to make the trade is in and of itself a sign of catastropic dysfunction, is another matter.
2008-07-10 13:27:50
21.   arborial
16 I think the point is that with the Dodger's power starved offense, giving up one of our few potential power hitters in Kemp is not a good move.
2008-07-10 13:28:24
22.   Ken Noe
0 Amen, great leader.
2008-07-10 13:29:54
23.   Xeifrank
15. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that a 5% drop in RA would help the win% more than a 5% rise in RS, thus backing up your argument that more run prevention would help.
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 13:31:27
24.   KG16
7 - Nomar, Berrora, Maza, Hu, go ahead Toronto, take any two you'd like in exchange for Burnett. We'll let you have three if you give us Roy Halladay instead.

The second half of the move would then involve fleecing the Phillies into giving the Dodgers either Rollins or Utley for a package that includes Lowe.

2008-07-10 13:31:33
25.   Terry A
But the Dodgers are on the clock!
2008-07-10 13:34:22
26.   Ken Noe
Joe Torre sits on a cardboard throne.

There's a ticking clock in it.

Next to a ring in a box.

2008-07-10 13:34:55
27.   Dodgers49
Dialed-in Diaz says he's ready

>> Before the game, RHP Jesus Rodriguez (1-2, 3.00) was reassigned to Class A Great Lakes, and RHP Luis Ferreras was promoted to the Suns from the Gulf Coast League Dodgers. Ferreras pitched a scoreless eighth inning in his debut. ... Suns RHP James McDonald (4-2, 3.29) is scheduled to pitch at 7:05 p.m. today against an unannounced Braves pitcher in Game 3 of the five-game series. <<

2008-07-10 13:35:00
28.   Xeifrank
24. Sorry, but the Blue Jays and Phillies would never make that trade because their front office is dysfunctional and difficult to work with. :)
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 13:35:11
29.   KG16
15 , 23 - the question is, could the Dodgers reduce their runs allowed much more than where it is today? They're the best in the NL and 5th overall (with Oakland as really the only team significantly lower, almost a half run per game). Conversely, there is significant room to improve their runs scored, being about a run and a quarter per game behind the NL leader.
2008-07-10 13:36:11
30.   regfairfield
I think we should trade Bernie Williams and Scott Brosius for Barry Bonds. Now you have a team.
2008-07-10 13:38:46
31.   Xeifrank
29. Yes, but it's difficult to when Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre are off limits via trade AND they both start when healthy. That really only leaves SS and 3B and none of the names I've heard bandied about would be of much help. vr, Xei
2008-07-10 13:40:29
32.   Dodgers49
From previous thread:

247. 232 How is Hu doing in Las Vegas? Is the vision problem improving? If Hu can get his eyes working properly why do the Dodgers need to do anything at shortstop for the remainder of this season?

As of today Hu is still on the Las Vegas DL. But I haven't seen an update on his vision status.

2008-07-10 13:42:47
33.   KG16
31 - I agree, I just don't see anywhere that the Dodgers can improve without giving up more in the long run.
2008-07-10 13:43:36
34.   thinkblue88
Chad Gaudin allows a HR to old friend David Ross in his Cubs debut. That's Ross' 2nd HR of he game!
2008-07-10 13:45:00
35.   ToyCannon
While I'm not a fan of XXXstein's game anymore, it might be worth it to sit next to Greg Brock and have him sit through a game in which Little Big Man and the Solution man the left side of the infield.
2008-07-10 13:45:32
36.   dsfan
What is Rosenthal's track record where the Dodgers are concerned? How many of his rumored Dodgers moves actually happened? Has he been wrong quite often in predicting this or that for the Dodgers? If so, is that because he isn't well-sourced with the Dodgers? If he isn't well-sourced with the Dodgers, does he resent them for it? Is he better sourced with agents? With other GMs? If so, do those agents and GMs have agendas to pursue? Does it seem that Rosenthal repeatedly calls out the Dodgers? If the Dodgers made no majors moves, would their chances of winning the NL West be poor, average, good?
2008-07-10 13:47:27
37.   Dodgers49
Arm strength encourages Sturtze

>> "(Torre) is pretty much the only reason why I'm in this organization," Sturtze said. "Joe just asked me to stick around and try to get back healthy just in case they need some help at the end of their (playoff) push. Hopefully I can get healthy enough to help them." <<

## • NOTE -- Dodgers infielder Mark Sweeney (strained right hamstring) is expected to join the 51s today to start a rehabilitation assignment. ##

2008-07-10 13:49:46
38.   Xeifrank
36. Pecota has the odds of the Dodgers making the playoffs (as it stands now) at 53.9%. I think the division is very winnable as is. I would be very cautious of making any trades. vr, Xei
2008-07-10 13:50:21
39.   gibsonhobbs88
16&21 - Not to mention that the Indians would have probably wanted Laroche thrown in also. With the Dodgers unlike the Brewers, the Indians would not have accepted just minor leaguers. The Dodgers minor league prospects are now not as stocked as the Brewers are so the Indians would have looked to garner MLB level players in return.
Also, I am suspicious of journalists in other markets making judgments on whether the Dodgers should have made the CC trade or not. They have their own agenda, we all know how many other cities are jealous and hate L.A. and love to see us fail. They would love to see us trade our young future for over-priced, over-rated PVL and watch us sink. As far as Plaschke and Simers, ect.., they just can't see the forest from the trees and they think they speak for all Angelenos that we won't wait for our homegrown kids to mature together. Some fans won't, but I also think the best teams were the ones that had the home grown nucleus in the 70's and early 80's. They were competitive nearly every year from 73-85. All you can ask for as a fan is the team to to its best to remain competitive in an many years as possible.
2008-07-10 13:51:08
40.   natepurcell
Is anyone concerned about Bryan Morris' K rate on the season?

right now, its at 7.8 9/ip with a go/fo ratio of almost 2.

His walk rates are pretty good and hit rates are not bad, but for a Logan White first rounder, he isn't following the crowd with the lack of strikeouts.

2008-07-10 13:53:44
41.   68elcamino427
Thanks Dodgers49!
2008-07-10 13:55:48
42.   thinkblue88
What would it take to get a player like JJ Hardy?

Also, 24 K's in today's Brewers-Rockies game.

2008-07-10 13:56:37
43.   Bob Timmermann
Yellow alert of Justin Morneau in Detroit.
This is a yellow alert.

But Morneau homered to the put the Twins up in the 11th.

2008-07-10 13:56:38
44.   Fallout
24 KG16
If Colletti got Utley then he would become the Mitch Kupchak of baseball.
2008-07-10 13:56:57
45.   Jon Weisman
36 - Have at it!

2008-07-10 13:57:13
46.   Xeifrank
I see the wind is blowing 14 mph out to center field at Wrigley today. The seven home runs makes sense now. vr, Xei
2008-07-10 13:57:25
47.   Eric Enders
40 What are the reports on his velocity? Could he be one of the few players who comes back from TJ throwing slower than before?

If I recall, his K rate in the Pioneer League in 2006 was fairly spectacular.

2008-07-10 13:57:45
48.   natepurcell

I would really look into Hardy this winter. If Penny was healthy and pitching well, a Penny + bullpen arm (Wade?) for Hardy could work out.

But Penny is not healthy and is not pitching well.

back to the drawing board...

2008-07-10 13:58:15
49.   fanerman
36 Maybe Rosenthal is just frustrated that the Dodgers are making him look bad.
2008-07-10 13:59:33
50.   natepurcell

His K rate was extremely high in the Pioneer League but so was his walk rate.

His walk rate this year is very good for first season out of TJ but the K rate is so-so.

Have not heard reports on velocity. Sounds like a mission for ToyCannon and his weekly talks with Deric McKamey.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-07-10 14:01:40
51.   Kevin Lewis
If we DFA'd Jones next year, would we still owe him the full amount?

Also, did anyone answer the question from the last thread about how long a team can control a player? The scenario had 12 years mapped out I think.

2008-07-10 14:02:55
52.   natepurcell

Yes, might as well keep him in his walk year.

2008-07-10 14:05:18
53.   Eric Enders
51 The 12 years sounds correct to me. Although it's actually 11.99, I guess.
2008-07-10 14:06:42
54.   Indiana Jon
50 Is his K rate that bad for a pitcher coming off injury? It's about the same as Elbert's so far. I think they will both improve as the season goes on.
2008-07-10 14:06:43
55.   Eric Enders
12.99, I mean. If the guy has 5.99 years when he goes to his last arbitration.
2008-07-10 14:07:32
56.   Bob Timmermann
I thought I was joking when I predicted a big strikeout day from Dave Bush in an earlier thread.
2008-07-10 14:09:12
57.   thinkblue88
Yeesh, 26 K's in that game combined from both teams.
2008-07-10 14:10:45
58.   Howard Fox
did I miss something? is Penny out for the year?
2008-07-10 14:10:53
59.   GMac In The 909
Fernando Tatis is one of today's top three performers listed at the top of's MLB scoreboard ... and he's wearing a Dodgers hat. Ha ha.
2008-07-10 14:12:08
60.   Jim Wilson
The Mariners released Richie Sexton. An upgrade over Sweeney for sure.
2008-07-10 14:14:59
61.   StolenMonkey86
Plaschke is on Around the Horn and said the Rays won't do well because their best hitter is a kid, and then said they need to trade their kids.
2008-07-10 14:17:42
62.   Ken Noe
12/23/04: Different GM, same Rosenthal Dodgers article. Virtually no one in baseball can figure out what the Dodgers are doing.

2008-07-10 14:17:53
63.   natepurcell

Did he really just say they need to trade their kids?

2008-07-10 14:17:57
64.   fanerman
61 Hah. That just makes me even more of a 150:1 Baby's fan.
2008-07-10 14:22:15
65.   Bob Timmermann
Does Plaschke even know the name of one player on the Rays aside from Troy Percival?
2008-07-10 14:22:43
66.   Xeifrank
61. Plaschke probably bet his $20 paycheck on the Yankees to win the World Series.
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 14:23:18
67.   Bob Timmermann
The cycle alert in Detroit was canceled.
2008-07-10 14:23:44
68.   StolenMonkey86
65 - He did say Longoria.
2008-07-10 14:24:55
69.   KG16
61 - I use to like Around the Horn. Then they got rid of Kellerman and let Stat Boy take over. And then they kept letting Plaschke back on.
2008-07-10 14:25:34
70.   KG16
68 - but was he talking about Tony Parker's wife? or the baseball player?
2008-07-10 14:25:46
71.   fracule
66 Hah, $20. Only in the insane alternative sports reality where people are paid what they're worth.
2008-07-10 14:25:49
72.   Eric Enders
He probably only knows Evan Longoria because of "Desperate Housewives."
2008-07-10 14:25:49
73.   Xeifrank
69. Who's basement do they film it in?
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 14:26:04
74.   Jim Wilson
I am playing manager here.
Why not play LaRoach at 3B and Dewit at SS to spell Nomar? Add a freebie in Sextonfor the late inning HR or sac Fly, and allow Kuo and Park to be the stop gaps. They are doing great but hardly used!
2008-07-10 14:36:28
75.   fracule
74 Yeah, who knows, maybe Sexton just has a case of the AL blues. I don't blame him.
2008-07-10 14:36:31
76.   Humma Kavula
Tell me 61 is for real. I love it!

Go Dodgers, and if you can't go Dodgers, go Rays!

2008-07-10 14:43:02
77.   silverwidow
We need a 1.000 OPS hitter.
We need a 1.000 OPS hitter.
We need a 1.000 OPS hitter.
We need a 1.000 OPS hitter.
We need a 1.000 OPS hitter.

Sorry, my keyboard got stuck.

2008-07-10 14:43:35
78.   CeyHey10
From Fangraphs, a stathead site:

Is Matt Kemp overrated by Dodger fans?

2008-07-10 14:45:39
79.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
78 I just discussed that article over at my place, but I think the simple answer is "no". The fact that the writer of that seems to think 23 is the new 28 is pretty mind-blowing to me - he makes more than one reference to Kemp not being young anymore, which is insane.

He's 23!

2008-07-10 14:45:40
80.   Bob Timmermann
That was discussed in detail toward the end of this:
2008-07-10 14:56:14
81.   cargill06
42 48 rumor is the blue jays offered a burnett for hardy type deal and mil turned it down.
2008-07-10 15:03:10
82.   cargill06
maybe we can trade for old pony league teammate, and high school rival chris valaika

anyone know anything about him? his numbers are good what type of prospect is he?

2008-07-10 15:03:26
83.   Jim Hitchcock
60 So I googled Sexton released and got:

Sexton for Quinlan has to be an upgrade (on an Angels blog).

2008-07-10 15:07:53
84.   underdog
Hey guys, Fangraphs article on Ke...

Oh never mind!


2008-07-10 15:08:19
85.   bablue

That would be Dave Cameron of USSM. He seems to be stretching quite a bit. But, Kemp is definitely not there yet as a hitter. He has all the talent he just needs a better approach.

2008-07-10 15:09:11
86.   underdog
Oh and props to Jon for this posting - it's spot-on. Too bad none of the repetitive journalists will likely ever see it or acknowledge it.

And no to anything AJ Burnett. Not a guy we want on the Dodgers' staff. Nyet!

2008-07-10 15:15:20
87.   KG16
sorry, I've probably asked this before, but can someone explain the importance of BABIP, please?
2008-07-10 15:15:27
88.   goofus
Anybody know how many homers we DFAd in the last 3-4 years? Cody Ross, Dave Ross, Jason Werth,etc...
2008-07-10 15:17:07
89.   cargill06
86 he's been very unlucky this year his FIP is 3.61

i learned that stat yesterday, and wanted to use it.

2008-07-10 15:19:50
90.   Bob Timmermann
You really miss David Ross?

You'd prefer him to Martin. Martin would hit a comparable amount of home runs if you put him in Cincinnati.

2008-07-10 15:20:46
91.   fanerman
87 It's a chance thing (if you believe in that sort of thing). Based on a player's line drive rate, fly ball rate, and ground ball rate, you should be able to predict the player's batting average on balls in play. ie, players who hit more line drives have higher BABIP's.

So, if a player's BABIP is very low but they have a high line drive percentage, chances are they're hitting balls hard but right at fielders. Those are the kind of things that even out (if you believe in chance and luck and that sort of thing), so it's likely that the player is playing better than his numbers are indicating. The player's BABIP will likely improve, and so will the player's BA, OBP, and SLG.

2008-07-10 15:21:26
92.   KG16
88 - it's not wise to think that because Player X hit Y homeruns for Team Z that he would have done the same playing for Team Z-1.

There are a lot of factors that go into hitting a homerun. The stadium a player is in, the pitcher he's facing. The in game situation (runners on, score, number of outs). Weather conditions. Some players that the Dodgers release only became the players they did because the Dodgers released them.

A poker analogy I use often when a player tells me, "look, if I'd have kept that seat, I'd have won all the pots that he did"; I respond by saying, "Only if you played exactly like he did. The moment you folded a hand that he played, or played one that he didn't the cards would be arranged in a different order."

2008-07-10 15:21:28
93.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
85 I agree that he's not there right NOW. It's just that I think we'd all agree he's still got a lot more room (and time) to grow than that article would make it seem.
2008-07-10 15:24:42
94.   goofus
90 As a back-up. You like Ardoin better? The question was in general Seems a lot of players do better after they leave LA.
2008-07-10 15:25:30
95.   cargill06
92 also, you could say that even the way you throw your cards into the muck completly changes everything
2008-07-10 15:26:51
96.   LoneStar7
did anyone already make mention of the warriors reportedly offering ronny 17 mil
2008-07-10 15:27:07
97.   regfairfield
That could be the first time someone said releasing David Ross was a mistake.

My one bit of David Ross smack is now invalid.

2008-07-10 15:27:37
98.   KG16
95 - yeah, I actually have a couple lines like that, the other one is "plus, you call and then he calls, and then that guy calls, and the muck changes"

the point that I usually get across is that there is pretty much a butterfly effect for every little action.

unless you think of time like Doctor Who.

2008-07-10 15:28:16
99.   underdog
88 I'm sure I'm not the only one here who misses Jayson Werth (but understands why the Dodgers let him go after several years in a row of major injury issues) and as for Cody Ross I definitely felt the Dodgers made a mistake letting him go when they did, how they did, I knew he had some pop. It was a great trade when they acquired him in the first place, for a mediocre reliever. As for David Ross, eh. He wasn't much as a starter here and while he has some pop I don't think he's even that great as a backup (especially defensively). Just my four cents.
2008-07-10 15:29:37
100.   underdog
96 Yep. Made me sad. I would like to see him remain a Laker, but at that money and with Bynum coming back next year, plus Gasol, plus Ariza and Walton, I would be surprised if the Lakers match it.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-07-10 15:31:35
101.   LoneStar7
100 yea agreed, i wonder how serious the artest talks will get, not in the mood to really even think about basketball yet, im still recovering
2008-07-10 15:32:06
102.   Bob Timmermann
David Ross shares time with Paul Bako in Cincinnati.

His two home runs today at Wrigley brought his season total of homers to 3.

2008-07-10 15:32:48
103.   scareduck
79 - Mike Cameron

(a) is getting married
(b) has been brutalized by the Mariners' grossly incompetent front office
(c) hates puppies and kittens
(d) all of the above

2008-07-10 15:34:42
104.   fanerman
103 Mike or Dave?
2008-07-10 15:36:36
105.   regfairfield
103 I know at least B is true for Mike.
2008-07-10 15:36:43
106.   ToyCannon
I just realized that Matt Kemp hits a lot of home runs on games I've gone to.

Does anyone think we will ever see 2nd place again? I wrote up this little counter to a column by Ted Green over on sportshub commenting on how ordinary a team the Dodgers are and his lament that we have never drafted a Jay Bruce.

2008-07-10 15:36:53
107.   scareduck
103 , 104 - yes, sorry, Dave.
2008-07-10 15:37:16
108.   Bob Timmermann
There seems to be a perverse attraction to former Dodger catchers here. And with the exception of Dioner Navarro, I can't say that I miss any of them.

Perhaps Toby Hall should come back.

If a player is hitting more home runs after leaving the Dodgers, what would be the reason for it? Do the Dodgers not recognize power hitters? Or it just coincidence?

Does any GM say? "This guy is going to hit too many home runs. Get rid of him!"

2008-07-10 15:37:47
109.   natepurcell

sportscenter. That guys anchor is all about advanced metrics and he is arguing with Kurkijan about Longoria over Giambi and the other anchor says jokingly, "What's Longoria's VORP?"/snicker

thats the first time I have ever heard VORP on sportscenter.

2008-07-10 15:38:47
110.   natepurcell

Weird, half of my words were erased. Anyways, you get the picture.

2008-07-10 15:38:54
111.   Howard Fox
108 I thought homeruns kill rallies
2008-07-10 15:39:40
112.   fanerman
110 I'm slightly confused at the situation.
2008-07-10 15:39:41
113.   ToyCannon
Did you ever contact that SportsNation guy looking for you? I lost your work email when I changed jobs.
2008-07-10 15:43:16
114.   fanerman
106 I'm too afraid of tempting fate to think that. But I do like our chances.
2008-07-10 15:43:56
115.   regfairfield
113 Yep, I got him.
2008-07-10 15:44:03
116.   ToyCannon
Lack of patience. David Ross would have been a great backup over the last few years. If I remember correctly we traded for Jason Philips because we felt David Ross couldn't cut it. The same Jason Philips who went onto to such heights as a Dodger that some clown felt he could add an offensive presence at 1st base.

Nothing wrong with lamenting for players who have had value after we let them go nothing. It is kind of funny that all these back up outfielders have more home runs then our starting outfield.

2008-07-10 15:45:08
117.   regfairfield
Why isn't Russ being at worst the third best catcher in baseball considered an impact player?
2008-07-10 15:45:30
118.   blue22
101 - Artest and Kenny Thomas for Lamar Odom. I like Odom a lot, but Artest would really toughen up the Lakers. I bet Luke Walton gets traded this offseason too.
2008-07-10 15:45:49
119.   natepurcell

On sportscenter, one anchor (Brian Kenny) is arguing with Kurkijan about Longoria over Giambi in the all star game and they are spouting off OBP, OPS, SLG etc etc and the other anchor in a sarcastic tone asks, "Well, whats the guys VORP?"

Because he knows Kenny is a stat nerd. I thought it was funny because I never heard VORP on sportscenter.

2008-07-10 15:46:25
120.   fanerman
117 He's too old to count.
2008-07-10 15:46:32
121.   CodyS
74 "I am playing manager here.
Why not play LaRoach at 3B and Dewit at SS to spell Nomar?"

I don't mean to poke fun, but ironically in order to spell Nomar, the manager needs to know how to spell LaRoche.

2008-07-10 15:47:01
122.   natepurcell

Kenny Thomas can't really defend at PF can he?

2008-07-10 15:47:07
123.   regfairfield
116 Remember this was after he lost the job to Brent Mayne and followed that up by going 0 for Spring Training.

Since we'd look really bad if we signed Paul Bako and just released him, we would have had to carry three catchers to keep Ross.

2008-07-10 15:48:03
124.   underdog
101/118 - Ron Artest is such a problem child I wouldn't want him anywhere near the Lakers. I would have trouble rooting for him even if on my team.
2008-07-10 15:48:04
125.   blue22
119 - Is Brian Kenny a stat nerd? I saw him on ESPNews last year interviewing someone like Keith Law, and he simply would not buy into the fact that BABIP was more or less consistent from pitcher-to-pitcher. Just out-and-out would not believe it.
2008-07-10 15:48:28
126.   fanerman
118 Luke seems too expensive to get traded. I really don't want Artest. Unless part of the contract is he agrees never to take a jump shot, I really don't trust him inside the offense. Plus he's Ron Artest and I don't want to see him in purple and gold.
2008-07-10 15:49:13
127.   blue22
122 - He's a matching-salaries throw-in. You'd still have Gasol at the 4, with tough guys Artest and Bynum surrounding him.
2008-07-10 15:50:18
128.   ToyCannon
M Alou is done for the year and maybe his career. F Tatis is now going to get playing time. If anyone needs a speedy LF it is the Mets. Keep talking him up Joe, maybe someone will listen in NY. You are after all a God there.
2008-07-10 15:52:01
129.   regfairfield
I'd enjoy seeing Pierre and Endy roaming the outfield.
2008-07-10 15:53:24
130.   Bob Timmermann
It takes four people to sign a backup catcher for the Dodgers. One to sign the guy and three people at DT to bemoan how much they liked the old one if he had only been given a chance.
2008-07-10 15:53:40
131.   fanerman
Forum Blue and Gold outlined several reasons that Odom would be a better fit for the Lakers. I tend to agree with them. I just don't see him as that much of an upgrade if at all. And that doesn't include the behavior issues.
2008-07-10 15:53:41
132.   Greg Brock
125 Brian Kenny is a stathead, big time. He and Sheehan used to argue on the Hot Lost a lot.
2008-07-10 15:54:16
133.   Greg Brock
Hot List, not Lost.

Long day.

2008-07-10 15:54:24
134.   ToyCannon
That would take the cake if Artest makes it to the Lakers. Then they would have my wife's two least favorite players on the Lakers team.

When did Bynum become a tough guy? Did that happen while he was re-habbing? He's got great hands and reach, tough is not something I'd assign to him yet unless your comparing him to the guy he replaced.

2008-07-10 15:55:28
135.   fanerman
128 Would successfully trading Pierre help or hurt the "dysfunctional front office" label?
2008-07-10 15:56:50
136.   ToyCannon
How can a teacher have a long day? It is already over:)
2008-07-10 15:57:47
137.   Bob Timmermann
Tonight's lineups:

Ramirez SS
Hermida RF
Cantu 3B
Willingham LF
Uggla 2B
Jacobs 1B
Ross CF
Baker C
Johnson RHP


Kemp CF
Ethier RF
Martin C
Kent 2B
Loney 1B
Young LF
DeWitt 3B
Berroa SS
Park RHP

2008-07-10 15:58:01
138.   LoneStar7
134 whos the other? she does know smush parker isnt on the lakers anymore right..
2008-07-10 15:58:35
139.   fanerman
138 I would guess Kobe.
2008-07-10 15:59:17
140.   KG16
128 - Pierre for Reyes? Or are the Mets too dysfunctional and hard to deal with to make that trade?
2008-07-10 15:59:47
141.   ToyCannon
Josh Johnson's first major league start since his TJ surgery. I predict a high scoring game with a plethora of home runs. Kuo better be ready tonight.
2008-07-10 16:00:17
142.   natepurcell
Wow, during the 6th inning of last nights Red Sox game, Manny goes inside the Green Monster during a pitching change and is seen/photographed talking on his cell phone.


2008-07-10 16:01:41
143.   Greg Brock
136 Seven hours in one class for professional development is tedious! And this was day four!

I want a home runner hitter. Any of those on the market? No, you say?

2008-07-10 16:02:26
144.   Bob Timmermann
This will be the second major league for Marlins catcher John Baker.
2008-07-10 16:03:40
145.   natepurcell

Why can't we play Laroche in LF?

2008-07-10 16:04:17
146.   JoeyP
I'm shocked Corey Hart beat out David Wright in the fan vote.
2008-07-10 16:04:55
147.   LoneStar7
the video of evan longoria being mobbed by his teamates after winning final vote is priceless..

a bunch of screaming teammates with beer and champagne sprint in screaming and dousing him, as he quickly tries to earmuff and protect his daughter from getting beer showered lol

2008-07-10 16:05:14
148.   Xeifrank
141. aren't we overdue for a pitcher making a run at a no-hitter or perfecto at Dodger Stadium? It's been atleast 20 or so hours since the last time that's happened. :)
My simulator has the over/under at 8.4 runs, LV Hilton at 8.5 and AccuScore at 9.4.
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 16:06:31
149.   Xeifrank
147. is there a link to that?
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 16:06:39
150.   caseybarker
Can Adam Dunn play left field, or has everyone given up on the possibility of a Dunn signing? Of course, the only logical outfield configuration would be Dunn, Ethier, and Kemp.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-07-10 16:07:11
151.   ToyCannon
I'm shocked David Wright isn't an all-star but kudos to Corey Hart.
2008-07-10 16:07:31
152.   Xeifrank
149., I feel sorry for his daughter.
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 16:08:03
153.   LoneStar7
right ont he main story at

2008-07-10 16:08:06
154.   Kevin Lewis

You are making me reconsider my Chan Ho Park start for fantasy ball tonight, especially since I had Lilly pitch today.

2008-07-10 16:08:08
155.   Eric Enders
142 Most major league managers ban cell phones in the clubhouse. I guess they forgot to extend it to the playing field.

Of course, if anyone was going to do that, it was Manny. Remember, a few years ago he was caught listening to an MP3 player in the outfield during a game.

Next up, he'll try to figure out how to get a Wii out there.

2008-07-10 16:08:59
156.   KG16
150 - I don't like the idea of Dunn playing in the NL West. Too many games in what are essentially pitcher's parks, as opposed to the bang boxes of the NL Central.
2008-07-10 16:10:46
157.   Ken Noe
Rico Carty used to play with his wallet in his back pocket. And he seemed to carry a lot of cash. Manny is still the student.
2008-07-10 16:10:50
158.   Bob Timmermann
the bang boxes of the NL Central.

No need to work blue here, Lenny Bruce.

2008-07-10 16:12:49
159.   Greg Brock
Tim Raines used to carry his wallet in his back pocket as well.

His cylindrical, glass wallet.

2008-07-10 16:14:44
160.   Eric Enders
157 At least I can see where Rico Carty's coming from, since clubhouses back then didn't have safes and wallets would often be burglarized during games.

Manny, I gave up trying to understand years ago.

2008-07-10 16:16:31
161.   Eric Enders
At this point, I would be only mildly surprised if Manny started keeping a laptop on the warning track and trying to get a wireless connection between innings.
2008-07-10 16:20:17
162.   Ken Noe
Manny is easily explained. In a previous life, he was Rube Waddell, and I'm just glad he doesn't leave games anymore to chase fire engines or wrestle gators.
2008-07-10 16:22:22
163.   KG16
I was just looking at espn's park factors, someone please explain to me how you can have a park factor for walks. I understand runs and hits of various kinds, but walks?
2008-07-10 16:24:07
164.   Bob Timmermann
Presumably a park with smaller foul territory will give up more walks.

And shorter fences would make pitchers more likely to walk a batter instead of risking a home run.

2008-07-10 16:24:41
165.   regfairfield
163 A park can create longer at bats by inducing more foul balls, pitchers could be more careful in hitters parks, and so on.
2008-07-10 16:24:52
166.   KG16
what are the odds that Berkman wins the NL triple crown this year? Currently 2nd in AVE, 5th in HR (but only 3 off the lead), and third in RBIs (10 off the lead).

I would think catching Chipper would be tough to catch on the AVE front, having a 30 point lead and all

2008-07-10 16:25:52
167.   KG16
164 . 165 - that makes sense, I suppose.
2008-07-10 16:28:52
168.   Xeifrank
163. Less foul territory = longer at-bats = more walks? Just a swag.
vr, Xei
2008-07-10 16:29:04
169.   tethier
137 - Normally I wouldn't mind seeing AJ get a "rest," but can someone explain why it's today? One day after it looks like he might be getting it together, and now against a guy who hasn't picthed in the major leagues all year, why not run him out there to see if he can have a big night? Not mention, I got to believe his confidence is up and that can't hurt.
2008-07-10 16:30:07
170.   Xeifrank
I wish ESPN would break down the park factors by left handed and right handed hitting batters. vr, Xei
2008-07-10 16:34:08
171.   goofus
169 And that's why Torre gets the big bucks...
2008-07-10 16:35:14
172.   kinbote
169 His knee?
2008-07-10 16:37:06
173.   Dodgers49
Can someone who follows the Clippers tell me if Elgin Baylor is still the GM? I don't pay much attention to the Clippers (except when they're playing the Lakers) but in reading about the Elton Brand fiasco the last couple of days it seems the talks were between Brand's agent and Dunleavy. There was no mention of a role by Elgin at all.
2008-07-10 16:40:07
174.   tethier
171 I live on the east coast and have two friends who are Yankees fans. we don't often talk baseball but I will ask them this weekend what their take on Torre is. I have to say, I'm not impressed with him - he might be a little better than last years manager. It seems like he was hired for his name value more than his baseball acumen. But, I may be stating the obvious.
2008-07-10 16:45:57
175.   underdog
From Inside the Dodgers:
(Tomorrow) Joe Beimel will be at the Staples in Brubank {sic} and Jonathan Broxton will be at the Paul's TV store, which carries Sharp TVs, in Panorama City. Both will be signing autographs for fans from 12-1 p.m.
2008-07-10 16:47:05
176.   Howard Fox
I have a couple friends who are Yankee fans, and their take at the beginning of the season on Torre was "now he is your problem"
2008-07-10 16:47:47
177.   underdog
174 - The Yankees fans I know are divided on Torre. Some generally loved him, others thought he'd at least started to lose it the last few years in NY. No one was overtly negative about him. But judging from comments on BB fans there had some misgivings about him that are now only outdone by their negative feelings about their current manager. ;-)

i.e., the grass is greener, managers aren't perfect, people are generally unhappy with their managers, etc.

2008-07-10 16:57:47
178.   Fallout
128 ToyCannon
M Alou should have been a DH a couple of yrs ago. The problem with him is that when he's healthy he gives it all and his leg muscles can't keep up.
2008-07-10 16:58:06
179.   Gen3Blue
137 and all. I know this is a late comment on the line-up but I kept getting distracted. At the moment Torre seems to put the most effective hitters toward the front and they tail off towards the end. When the vets are in there he doesn't seem to have the brains to do this. Or is it that he doesn't have the guts. I know a case could be made that JP and even Kemp aren't that effective but they are fast, so they lead off, but in general I think what I say is true.
2008-07-10 17:01:15
180.   Eric Enders
Bill James did a study a few years ago which showed that all managers, virtually without exception, get worse as they age.

He came up with a formula which evaluates a manager's performance based on expected wins and losses, how well the team did before he got there, etc. The results showed that managers tend to be a benefit to their teams in the first three or four years of their career, and especially in their first and second year. After that, they become significantly less effective the longer they keep managing.

He theorizes why this might be. One thing he says is that a new manager might have things he focuses on -- specific ways he sees to improve the team. Improving pitch selection, getting better at bunting, whatever. But once he's been around a few years and the team has mastered those things, then the manager runs out of ways to improve the team. He corrects whatever blind spot areas the previous manager had, but develops his own blind spots that he's incapable of seeing or correcting.

Another thing James said, which makes a lot of sense to me, is that the new manager isn't handicapped by loyalties and personal relationships. A new manager can come in and clear out the dead wood on a team, and do it with a clear conscience since he has no particular loyalties or history with the players. But an experienced manager develops an affection for the players who he admires or who have helped him in the past, and those players are allowed to retain their jobs long after they no longer deserve them. The manager's loyalty to his favorites -- which is a theme with almost all managers -- is allowed to drag down the team. The best managers over long periods of time are the ones who are willing to cold-bloodedly make decisions based on merit rather than sentiment. There are relatively few of those guys around, and Torre is clearly not one of them. (see: Proctor, Scott; Williams, Bernie; Jeter, Derek; etc.)

2008-07-10 17:05:51
181.   bhsportsguy
179 That's kind of a particular problem in the NL in general.
2008-07-10 17:07:18
182.   Bob Timmermann
The best managers over long periods of time are the ones who are willing to cold-bloodedly make decisions based on merit rather than sentiment

Earl Weaver? Whitey Herzog? Casey Stengel?

2008-07-10 17:10:33
183.   El Lay Dave
175 Broxton is a natural match for the King of Big Screens. Maybe His Royal Thighness would be too.
2008-07-10 17:11:06
184.   Fallout
180 Eric Enders
Bernie Williams was replaced in CF under Torre and so was Johnny Damon. And what is it that you would do with Jeter?
2008-07-10 17:11:34
185.   underdog
No offense, and I know this is totally random, but I still can't believe what a joke it is that Kosuke Fukudome is starting in the All-Star game. It's his first year in the Majors, and his numbers aren't even all that special. He's got a great arm. Big whoop. Thanks for the ballot stuffing, Cubs fans!

/rant, OFF

2008-07-10 17:11:40
186.   Eric Enders
Definitely Stengel. He's the poster boy for that. Weaver probably counts. Not sure about Herzog.

Current examples would include Jim Leyland and Bobby Cox.

2008-07-10 17:13:18
187.   Tripon
Elgin Baylor is the GM in name, but I don't think he actually does deals or trades anymore. I think Sterling keeps Baylor around because he can't ever come to fire him because of all the history they have. Its like an unofficial retirement. Dunleavy is the defacto coach and GM, but Sterling and Dunleavy hates each other so I don't really know how that relationship works.
2008-07-10 17:14:37
188.   El Lay Dave
182 Well, Earl agreed to trading Frank Robinson.
2008-07-10 17:16:25
189.   Eric Enders
184 "what is it that you would do with Jeter?"

Move him to third, obviously.

When you acquire a Gold Glove shortstop, and your other shortstop is the worst defender in the league, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what to do. Instead, Torre chose to hurt his team's defense immeasurably by remaining loyal to his incompetent shortstop.

Bernie Williams, same thing. He wasn't benched until long after he became a joke in center field. He should have been made a DH, left fielder, or bench player at least two years sooner than he was.

2008-07-10 17:17:27
190.   tethier
177 i.e., the grass is greener, managers aren't perfect, people are generally unhappy with their managers, etc.

Yeah, I suppose at some level it's nothing more than a crapshoot - a roll of the dice. There certainly have been moves by Torre (or Little for that matter) that I disagreed with and they turned out just fine.

2008-07-10 17:22:18
191.   Tripon
So I assume the feeling is that Joe Giaradi would have been the better choice for the Dodgers?- ;O
2008-07-10 17:23:01
192.   Dodgers49
187 Thanks for the response.
2008-07-10 17:23:36
193.   bhsportsguy
Meanwhile the D-Backs and Nationals have been making lots of outs as D-Backs are 2 batters over the minimum and the Nats 3 in a scoreless game going into the top of the 6th.
2008-07-10 17:23:37
194.   underdog
191 No. (Speaking for me anyway. I don't like Girardi's in-game management at all.)
2008-07-10 17:24:27
195.   bhsportsguy
191 Managers, coaches, eventually you tire of them, even if they win.
2008-07-10 17:25:34
196.   kinbote
180 Are you saying that as managers get more experienced, the game speeds up for them? ;)
2008-07-10 17:25:43
197.   GMac In The 909
187 Its like an unofficial retirement.

Or said another way: he's the mascot.

2008-07-10 17:27:39
198.   Alex41592
Haren gets his run.
2008-07-10 17:29:01
199.   kinbote
193 The Nationals seem to be expert at making outs. Might JP be a logical fit?

(How depressing that the July 31st trade deadline has no significance for Pierre: he would pass through waivers in a heartbeat.)

2008-07-10 17:31:12
200.   scareduck
185 - yeah, I guess you're right. Being in the top ten in the NL in OBP, walks, and runs scored is nothing special.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-07-10 17:34:18
201.   Kevin P
Just read your post, Jon. I couldn't agree any more. I thought the same thing as I read Rosenthal late last night.
2008-07-10 17:41:30
202.   Eric Enders
Fukudome has the 25th-best OPS+ among NL outfielders. He's not a horrendously bad choice, though. At least he's actually a good player.
2008-07-10 17:42:54
203.   Eric Enders
If we're going to complain about ballot-box stuffing by Cubs fans, I prefer to get angry about them preventing the best catcher in the league from starting the game.
2008-07-10 17:44:01
204.   underdog
200 So you think he should be starting outfielder then? I probably sounded too harsh; I think he's a very solid player, but there's no way he deserves to start.
2008-07-10 17:45:52
205.   underdog
203 Heh. That just reminded about what the Giants announcers said when Bengie Molina was left off the AS roster. Something along the lines of "one of the worst travesties they've ever seen!" I mean, seriously, can they argue that Martin, Soto and McCann don't deserve a shot. Not to mention that the Giants' Brian Wilson did make the AS team. As Krukow would say, "Siddown, meat!"
2008-07-10 17:51:02
206.   Fallout
189 Eric Enders
So, why hasn't the younger smarter, Joe Giaradi, done the obvious?
Who did the Yankees have to replace Williams b4 they acquired Damon?
2008-07-10 18:03:13
207.   Fallout
205 underdog
I had the same thought. At least when I heard the Giant announcers say it, their tone wasn't bitter.
2008-07-10 18:03:29
208.   El Lay Dave
206 If they admitted the need a year earlier, they could have signed Carlos Beltran.
2008-07-10 18:11:02
209.   underdog
Could the Dodgers get anything for Jason Johnson? Obviously he won't get a shot with them, but another team desperate for pitching may take a shot. But I dunno if the Dodgers could get anything decent in return or if they would just release him so he gets to pick a team on his own?
2008-07-10 18:11:29
210.   Fallout
208 El Lay Dave
Hey, I wasn't talking to you. :) You may be right, but didn't Williams decline drop like a rock in a very short time? Besides, Torre didn't have Beltre. I don't think that was his fault.
2008-07-10 18:12:12
211.   Eric Enders
Jason Johnson seems like a sell-for-a-modest-amount or trade-for-a-crappy-PTBNL kind of guy.
2008-07-10 18:13:55
212.   Eric Enders
If he'd had Beltre, they really would have had a logjam at third base. ;)
2008-07-10 18:26:34
213.   Fallout
212 Eric Enders
Pretend I said Beltran.:)
2008-07-10 18:29:51
214.   thinkblue88
Nationals score tie up the game with arizona!!

Still got 1st and 2nd no outs.

2008-07-10 18:30:09
215.   berkowit28
Nationals just got 2 runs in the bottom of the 9th and tie Arizona 2-2. Only 1 out.
2008-07-10 18:30:47
216.   berkowit28
216 Sorry - none out, 2 on base.
2008-07-10 18:32:25
217.   thinkblue88
Yeah, what he said.
2008-07-10 18:36:56
218.   Mike De Leon
Just read you're post Jon and I completely agree. But you also have to take into account that plashke and simmers know nothing about baseball much less any other sport they write about. I stopped reading the times sports section years ago, after they became the main writers. It's also the reason the times has gone downhill over the years, times reporters just suck, I stopped reading the times altogether a few years after I stopped reading the sports.

191. Actually yeah, I'd have preferred Girardi over torrie. He did a great job when he was with the Marlins and that was also a young team, the problem in NY, or at least one of the problems, is that he walked into a team that had a line up pretty much set in stone and no farm that could help the big club, unlike the Dodgers. Too he has to contend with georgie and his kids. Any move that he might want to make has to be cleared by them first or at least that's the impression I get.

2008-07-10 18:38:32
219.   Gagne55
C'mon Wily Mo!!!!!
2008-07-10 18:38:45
220.   berkowit28
217 And now 2 out.
2008-07-10 18:39:51
221.   berkowit28
Bases loaded now.
2008-07-10 18:39:57
222.   El Lay Dave
Reynolds second error of the inning loads the bases for the Nats. Still two out.
2008-07-10 18:40:03
223.   Gagne55
Reynolds with his second error of the inning.
2008-07-10 18:40:44
224.   Gagne55
Walk is as good as a hit...
2008-07-10 18:42:00
225.   El Lay Dave
However it is Brandon Lyon vs. Roger Bernadina.
2008-07-10 18:42:41
226.   El Lay Dave
224 I'm pulling for catcher's interference.
2008-07-10 18:42:58
227.   El Lay Dave
2008-07-10 18:43:03
228.   thinkblue88
His third of the game.
2008-07-10 18:43:20
229.   CanuckDodger
Ethan Martin has agreed on terms with the Dodgers and is going to sign tonight, according to the Times. He'll be sent to the GCL team.
2008-07-10 18:44:51
230.   berkowit28
Bah. In play (out). Extra innings.
2008-07-10 18:45:48
231.   El Lay Dave
4-3 grounder. Free baseball in D.C. :(
2008-07-10 18:52:09
232.   natepurcell

Jackson's blog said he took BP at DS and went yard 4 times...I still wouldn't mind it if he went the 3b route instead of the pitcher route.

2008-07-10 18:59:43
233.   berkowit28
231 Not very free any more. Arizona up 4-2 on two doubles after going 2 out. Still a runner on 2nd - nope, now Arizona 5-2, with a runner at first. The Nats don't know how to pull off a win. Oh well.
2008-07-10 19:13:57
234.   berkowit28
Hey, I'm wrong! Both teams hitting, trouble with pitching. All tied up again 5-5. Only one out, Kearns at 3rd base.
2008-07-10 19:34:12
235.   Gen3Blue
How do the Dodgers, supposedly lacking any power, give up Cody Ross for nothing. He didn't look like a ball player? I think he has 15 home runs this year. Sort of like D4P, ehh!

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