But I thought Vin Scully was alwasy right.

Stults is a goner tomorrow (with the off day on Thursday, the 5th spot can be skipped).

A win is a win. And the Dodgers still have the fewest runs allowed in the NL.

Like I said a few minutes ago, this was the series' one stereotypical Coors Field game.
(I hope.)

a win is a win is a win.

Hard to be sad when offense has been our problem all year and we scored 16 runs.

A win is a win is a win is a win.

Vinny a bit grumpy tonight - he's entitled

Maybe he's not feeling 100% in the altitude?

4

it almost seems like they don't use the humidor balls sometimes.

Now if we can knock off all this showcasing nonsense. Sigh.

Completely agree with you, Jon.

On a night when the humidor was busted, I'll take a win at Coors any way I can get it.

8

I think he has earned that right, he's only human.

Tony Jackson's blog mentioned it was hot outside in Denver tonight. That could have a lot to do with the number of hard hits.

Andy LaRoche Showcase Watch:
1-3, 1B, 2 BB, 1 RBI, 1 R

13 Also, Kip Wells vs. Eric Stults.

Tony Jackson has this quote from Joe Torre about LaRoche.

Torre said before the game that Andy LaRoche is going to start all three games. Here is the quote:
``I had planned on giving him a couple of games. It has really been unfair to him. Knowing that the end of July is looming, you have to find out as much as you can about your players. If you're looking to help your ballclub, you want to make sure you have an idea of the people you have. He'll probably play this series, especially (facing) the left-hander (Glendon Rusch) Wednesday.''

I liked Tulo's quote there on the postgame show - "I like our chances if we score 10 runs a game."

Can't say I've been overly thrilled with the performance of our starting pitching since the break.

The offense, OTOH, seems to be coming together nicely.

It has really been unfair to him. Knowing that the end of July is looming, you have to find out as much as you can about your players. If you're looking to help your ballclub, you want to make sure you have an idea of the people you have.

Andy's been up since June 10, and Torre NOW gets the idea to play him in consecutive games.

I realize the subject of Andruw Jones' poor performance has been beat to death. But I was wondering whether there has been speculation (in the press or on the blogs) about how much more of an opportunity Torre intends to give him before finally pulling the plug (and by "pulling the plug," I mean parking him on the pine). 200 ABs? 250?

I apologize if this has been addressed before. I've been struggling to keep up with the latest from the Dodger rumor mill ever since my son was born a month ago.

So if the Dodgers are not interested in Adrian Beltre, who's out there that is worth Laroche?

As I posted in the other thread, and this may mean nothing other than playing games in Arizona and Denver, but the Dodgers have scored 32 so far in the four games that Mattingly's been back.

Sorry, but I'm just not going to read 903 comments about tonight's game!

Do we have any idea who's going down when Kershaw's activated? Stults? Or are we expecting a trade?

21 - I cannot think of a single move I'd be in favor of in acquiring a 3B than involved dealing LaRoche and bringing back anyone other then Beltre.

"It's a Good Win"

The Dodgers once had an outfielder who was a Goodwin.

19 I get the feeling that Torre wanted to give Laroche a chance, but he was waiting until Laroche proved that he deserved the chance. You know, earning jobs and all that. Plus, it makes it easier on Dewitt.

23 - You got something better to do? :)

20 - I think the deadline will be Pierre's activation. By that time, it will be roughly August 1 or later.

Kershaw returns-

This time there ain't no go'in back!

21 I hope it isn't Casey Blake. I like Blake, but he isn't worth Laroche in my opnion. He is out OPSing Beltre, but I think Beltre will do a lot better once he leaves Seattle.

24
Probably no one, but I would not even give up LaRoche for Beltre.

BTW, I love how you can now search by position and other filters when it comes to VORP.

25 I want to see one of those celebrity boxing matches with Juan Pierre and Tom Goodwin. Could they even hurt each other? I think it'd be a pretty even um... fight.

If the Dodgers were to go after Beltre, I wonder if Seattle would pick up some of his salary for next year. I can't see top management, McCourt wanting to pick up I believe 13million next year.

This is way out of left field but do you think there is any interest in Scott Rolen from Toronto?

By the way I would agree that Vinny may have been a bit grumpy tonight, but how many announcers quote Churchill's phrase the soft underbelly of Europe refering to the Arizona bullpen?

The Padres might want to trade Kazmonoff for an outfielder. If Jones starts making contact, enough contact to keep him in the lineup, would the Dodgers trade Ethier for Kazmonoff and return Pierre to LF? Kazmonoff had a strong second half last year.

And if Jones doesn't hit enough, would the Dodgers put LaRoche in the outfield if they traded Ethier? I have questions.

32 I think Screech from Saved by the Bell could knock out either of them.

So if the Dodgers are not interested in Adrian Beltre, who's out there that is worth Laroche?

I would take Alex Gordon.

34 It's a bad idea. The guy has no right playing third so he'd have to get moved to either first or left. At that point, he'd become Ethier with worse defense.

29

Blake shouldn't cost a Laroche considering his age and free agent status.

9 Yah, I was gonna say, "Someone forgot to refill the reservoir for the humidor".

Belte has been here, done that. He is a good fielding 260/20 guy (except when on 'roids or the Boras 'walk season' conditioning, but I'm thinking the former, since it didn't work out for Jones). Either Dewitt or LaRoche could beat that offensively. And we don't have to pay Beltre/Boras prices.

Jones acts to me like someone who has lost his equilibrium, inner ear problem or something. He kinda staggers at the plate and sometime when he runs.

The only trade I might want to do with the Padres is for Maddux.

Well, tonight's game made a farce out of the series over/under for runs scored.
vr, Xei

25
The Dodgers once had an outfielder who was a Goodwin.
Whose feet were so fast he could fly in.

40 Maddux has a skill set that's really suited to Petco and he still only has a 92 ERA+, it'd be a waste.

How old is Beltre? How many years left on his contract.

27 Partially owing to you, I saw my first episode of Mad Men tonight and liked it a lot. The best quotation was [paraphrasing]: "It's not like there's some magical machine out there that can copy paper."

46

Please stop doing that.

47 Please.

But it's three different guys, how could they all be wrong?

I really hope they don't trade LaRoche...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4140

ESPN lists the Rocky Mountain News that Kip Wells has blood clots in his right hand and is uncertain of his next start.

51 He went on the DL in April for that. Today was his return from the disabled list.

42
The Dodgers once had an outfielder who was a Goodwin.
Whose feet were so fast he could fly in.
But his bubble was burst
When he couldn't steal first...

Can I safely assume that the subject of the early hook for Stults was beaten to death in the game thread? 'Cause I still don't see why he got pulled with one or two outs in the fourth with a five-run lead.

54 Maggots are feasting away on that horse's carcass.

Oh, thanks for that image. ;)

So what was the consensus opinion?

Perhaps premature, but it's Coors and Stults wasn't pitching that well, anyway.

57 I felt badly for the poor guy and thought he could have gotten through five innings.

I was really struck by Vin's sympathy for the paying customers in the first inning. I was also a little surprised that Hurdle left Wells in to take so many lumps, straight off the D/L.

39 "Belte has been here, done that. He is a good fielding 260/20 guy (except when on 'roids or the Boras 'walk season' conditioning, but I'm thinking the former, since it didn't work out for Jones). Either Dewitt or LaRoche could beat that offensively."

Sure, DeWitt could probably hit .260 with 20 homers. Over a three-year period.

I agree with Vin. I'm glad for the win, but the game turned into something of a bummer for me knowing that we whacked ourselves in the kneecap by burning our three best relief pitchers in a blowout during the first game of a series.

As you guys know, I've been critical of Torre very often this year. But I've got to hand it to him -- every time I think his decisions couldn't get any worse, he keeps finding a way to up the ante. I look forward to the last series of the season, when presumably Kuo and Broxton will pitch three innings each in a 20-0 game and we'll have to play for the division title with James Loney on the mound.

Dylan Hernandez called Kuo the "über-reliever."

I think he was just looking for an excuse to use an umlaut. If it were Tony Jackson he just would have linked to a Queensrÿche or Hüsker Dü video.

Has there ever been a band called umlaut? If not, I call dibs.

I plan on calling my band "Accent Ague"

60

While I have had my disagreements with Torre, especially on pitching, I think tonight he did the right things. Stultz didn't seem to have it and 80 pitches after 3 plus innings is not a good sign. By pulling him early an argument could be made he could be used without harm later in the week. Wade only had an inning and Bimel was less than an inning. I believe Kuo could pitch on Wednesday and Broxton got up but I believe never threw a warm-up pitch. Borg is the one who would be very limited tomorrow.

Vin was biting his tongue after Andruw's second strikeout, too.

Torre did what he had to do tonight. Stults was on the verge of getting rocked, and it was Coors, after all. I don't think he's a bad manager at all, and I think we'll see a big difference between last year's endgame and this one.

62 He actually didn't use an umlaut.

65 We disagree then. I doubt Kuo pitches Wednesday. And Broxton definitely threw warmup pitches -- which, in terms of fatigue, is essentially the same as entering the game. That's why you don't warm up your outstanding relievers unless you're really going to use them.

I already said this in the previous thread but since it's raised here again: Stults was not good at all tonight. I am pretty sure Torre wanted to do anything other than pull him when he did. I watched every moment of the game and I saw pitchers who were generally not effective on both sides. The ump was squeezing them a little bit which didn't help, but Stults was both a bit wild and was hit hard. It's Coors field where basically no lead was safe. I might have left him in there to try one more batter, but that batter was righty Holliday who rocked him in previous at bat, and the bases were loaded. As Louis noted he was already up to 80 pitches and laboring. Huge lead or not, that's all on Stults to pitch more effectively. If he left him there for another inning to give up five runs, Grady-style, people would be all over the manager, too. The Dodgers pitchers were generally not effective tonight - and again, some of that is the park itself, and the air temperatures, and so on - but I don't think Torre had much choice in most of his pitching moves tonight. In short, Eric, as much as I respect your opinion, I feel like we watched two different games tonight. {cue SciFi Channel eerie music} And... maybe we did. ;-)

I do, however, disagree with Torre for leaving Martin in there the whole game. I know Ardoin is schedule to start on Thursday, it sounds, and knowing Russ he probably begged to stay in or something, but when you're up that big it seems prudent to rest your catcher for at least a couple of innings? I don't know, maybe that's not a big deal but I would've pulled him.

70 Ardoin is scheduled to start on Wednesday with Thursday being a day off at home. The idea is that Martin will get two days off in a row, a better break.

"I already said this in the previous thread but since it's raised here again: Stults was not good at all tonight. I am pretty sure Torre wanted to do anything other than pull him when he did. I watched every moment of the game and I saw pitchers who were generally not effective on both sides."

I agree, but he didn't need to be good. He just needed to be allowed eat innings. The mediocre relievers needed to be saved for later in the game, so that way the good ones wouldn't need to be used.

Your last sentence emphasizes the point I'm trying to make. If it's true that everyone was going to suck, why not have Stults suck in the fourth and fifth instead of putting yourself in a position where you'd be forced to waste prime relievers? Stults could, and would, have gotten us through at least five innings with the same results the relievers got.

I would have given Stults one more batter, but overall I'm not against the quick hook in that situation. Even the outs he was getting were hit really hard and I was thinking before the game even started that I was worried about a fly-ball pitcher like Stults in Coors Field. After that, every pitcher that came in looked quite shaky. A decent amount should be attributed to Crawford's tiny zone, but however you slice it we needed every reliever that was brought in tonight.

68 He had barely started stretching his arm out when there was already an out in the 9th. I doubt he threw more than 5 pitches (if that) at full tilt. There's a difference between truly warming up (as in throwing 20 or so pitches at full speed) and getting loose in the pen.

Even if we agree to disagree on Stults, there remains the question of why Beimel, Kuo, and Broxton were burned instead of Johnson and Troncoso. (Though I realize we don't really know whether Troncoso was available.)

More to the point, Stults should have been expected to get the same results that the relievers ended up getting. It is certainly reasonable that Torre should have expected better results from the relievers, but better results were far from needed. The WE for CO after the second inning was around 5% and never got better. Torre pulled Stults about 6 runs too early. As long as he was not at risk for giving up 4-6 runs in a single inning (he never was), Torre should have left him in. It was poor management of our BP.

Once he did take him out, he also proceeded to continue using pitchers at a rate that was consistent with a much closer game. There is no way we should have gone through more than 3-4 pitchers tonight and we should never had had to touch Kuo (not that he gets work when he should anyway, though) or Beimel.

Broxton was not used (though he did toss some in the BP).

Yeah, I know. That's what makes it infuriating. He was burned without even being used.

If you are going to have Jason Johnson on your team, you can pretty much only use him in blowouts.

I don't think the warm up will prevent his use tomorrow. Counting a few warm-up tosses from Broxton takes the point too far. Though I certainly agree that he should not have even been warming up for insertion in the game (assuming that is, in fact, why he was tossing) when others were available, but I cannot see the harm in it either.

74 - I did wonder about Troncoso. I agree, I would've used him, if available, just not sure if they felt he was available. Johnson, don't know except I feel like they were saving him for tomorrow just in case, or to relieve for Kershaw. At any rate, I think I would have done one or two things differently, too, but overall I didn't have a problem with it. I could easily see them blowing that huge lead, in Coors. I'm at least glad they do currently have the number of pitchers they have right now. When they go back to LA, I'm sure they won't have quite as many.

Anyway...seems like 12 hours ago, but we win!

80 Why would you "save" Johnson for tomorrow instead of Kuo? That's kind of the point.

Martin woos over everyone.

Hurdle on Russell (via Dylan Hernandez):

>>"As much as I respected him as a player watching him from the other dugout, I respect him more now," Hurdle said.

"I didn't want to put the whip to him too much. He caught nine innings as it was. He caught a complete game. I figured that after that, I'm pushing my luck a little bit with Torre. I might get the fish eye from Joe when he shows up. Nobody wants that."<<

81 With Saito out, Kuo is expected to assume more of a late-inning setup role instead of his usual multi-inning pseudo-mop-up role. I agree that Johnson is essentially being saved for tomorrow since Kershaw is not known to be more than a 6 inning guy at this point. I'm guessing Torre hopes it will break down to Kershaw for 5, Johnson for 3, and either Broxton or Troncoso coming in to close it out depending on where the game is at the time.

I'm assuming Troncoso was unavailable after throwing 2 innings yesterday - or at the least would only be saved for an emergency. Middle relievers don't usually have to go two innings so it's best not to have them go out there the next day when they actually have to.

79 "I don't think the warm up will prevent his use tomorrow."

I agree. I do, however, suspect it will prevent us from using him in both of the next two games. Instead, we'll only have him for one or the other.

If he were to pitch in both the next two games, that would be four days in a row of throwing, and 5 out of 6. They won't do that to him (I hope, anyway). If he was going to get rest, tonight was the night.

Most relievers will tell you that if you warm them up, you might as well bring them in, because it has the same effect. I believe Beimel was quoted to this effect earlier year when Torre kept warming him up without using him.

84 You're right to a point, but tonight is not one of those instances.

Like I said in 73 , I don't believe he had to warm up as strenuously as would be classified as truly warming up. Just because he started throwing the ball around in the bullpen doesn't mean his arm was "used" tonight. If that was the case, just warming up before the game would be considered being "used".

Fair enough.

85 To elaborate, relievers are normally told to either "get loose" or "warm up". Warming up is basically saying "you're going into the game" while getting loose is more like "get the blood flowing, but don't actually warm up until I tell you to". Managers aren't dumb these days, they know that you're basically wasting a pitcher if you make him work too hard in the bullpen without going in. Kuo was in some trouble tonight, but the game was never quite in doubt.

I am trying to look for OPS+ stats and not having much luck, which site should I check?

Baseball-reference.

Which reminds me of an instance in high school where my coach had me go warm up early in the game (around the 3rd inning), so I go to the bullpen and start making pitches at 60% effort or so. My coach then turns around and starts yelling at me, saying "I want you to be ready to go into the game!" at which point I start hurriedly throwing fastballs at full speed. Of course I'm not needed in that inning, but an inning or two later my coach has me go warm up again at the same pace. I don't even remember if I ended up going into the game, but I know my arm started getting tired by the end of my warm-up pitches.

One of the parents from the other team yelled at my coach by saying "come on coach, his arm's gonna fall of". Needless to say, that coach wasn't too knowledgeable when it came to pitchers.

89
Thanks, I am an idiot and did not notice the plus the first time I checked.

Just read the Tony Jackson story and he says that JP may actually be able to be activated as early as next week-I see this as a bad thing. So if JP is indeed ready and Sweeney is ready, even if La Roche or Dewitt is traded the math doesn't seem to work. I am assuming if we trade one of our 3rd basemen we will get another one back. The math doesn't seem to work, unless they are planning to DFA or disable Andru?...Hu had two hits tonight and had 1 yesterday.

92 I believe you are correct. JP's comeback will result in the extra utility infielder being axed, whether that's Berroa or Ozuna (probably Berroa). Sweeney coming back, then, would necessitate getting rid of either DeWitt or LaRoche -- or Sweeney himself.

So with JP's imminent return and I am sure that Sweeney isn't going anywhere, it is sad to say that I would rather have Jones back on the DL and keep Berroa who I think is more valuable.

Perhaps they're trying to make that decision as we speak -- perhaps that's why LaRoche is playing every game this series.

I'm not going to read 900 posts either so it this was considered in the previous post my apologies.

I call BS on torre's comment about LaRoche

`I had planned on giving him a couple of games. It has really been unfair to him. Knowing that the end of July is looming, you have to find out as much as you can about your players. If you're looking to help your ballclub, you want to make sure you have an idea of the people you have. He'll probably play this series, especially (facing) the left-hander (Glendon Rusch) Wednesday.''

I'm with Vin, Andy's being show cased for a deal. I expect den to make another of his famous deals for another PVL. If it happens I hope Andy goes to another NL team.

I liked Torre's comment after the game: "Arena ball."

As for predictions, I foresee more flu-like symptoms in Jones' future once JP scampers back. We bid a fond farewell to Mr. Snipes. Stults is on notice. I think LaRoche may remain LA property though--I see spare parts for somebody like Blake or McDonald. I don't think the "brain trust" is as enamored of DeWitt as most believe. But we shall see--sweeping Colorado and getting over .500 would help.

Coors field or no, it was 12-2 with 2 outs in the inning when he hooked Stults. I think it is very poor form to hook him at that moment. Stults wasn't great by any means, but he wasn't so bad that he was putting the game in danger. The most extreme result would have been a Holliday grand slam at which point you pull him in a 12-6 game. We were watching the same game, and Stults was mortified that Torre brought the hook at that point. Torre embarrassed him and though Stults should be a big boy, it is not something I would expect out of a so called player's manager.

Can anyone give a meaningful explanation of how Brian Falkenborg deserves credit for last night's victory...?

99 - Stults isn't eligible, and Falkenborg was arguably the most effective reliever. I would say that when the starting pitcher is pulled with a lead before the fifth inning, the official scorer gives the victory to the first reliever who has a viable case for it.

I'd like to see the five-inning minimum for starters eliminated. But since that ain't happening, who would you have given the victory to? Every other reliever besides Falkenborg allowed more runs than innings pitched.

99 You can't give the win to Stults because he didn't go 5 innings, and every Dodger pitcher besides Falkenborg gave up more than 1 run per inning.

100 I didn't realize there was any subjectivity involved. I thought Falkenborg would have got the win even if he allowed nine runs.

Bottom of the fourth inning

line out to center
double
double
strikeout
walk
smash infield single
Holliday up

I think there's a case for leaving Stults in and a case for taking him out. I certainly don't think this ranks in the top 100 most disputable Torre decisions.

102 - Nope, not if there were a more effective reliever to choose.

98 et al

Stults had to come out when he did...Holliday hits a grand slam there, and the Rockies bring the tying run to the plate in the 8th and 9th...

you can't let them back in the game at Coors...and it doesn't matter how many pitchers you burn today...you can't lose this game...a loss after being up 11-0 would have been devastating

Stults is on notice.

Isnt Stults going back down to AAA today, to make room for Kershaw?

I also find it a bit embarrassing that Ned's keeping Sweeney with the club. The guy is healthy, he's had his rehab--and yet they wont activate him bc they know he's done, but yet wont just DFA him either.

Strange situation.

I can't wait to see this blog when Pierre is activated and he goes back into left, Jones in center, and Kemp and Ethier platooning in right.

I'm no Torre fan, but after watching Little leave pitchers in way too long, it's nice to see an occasional early hook.

106 I assume they're waiting to see if Ned makes a deal--Swingy gets his job back unless the slot is needed for a new Dodger.

From Tony Jackson:

http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2008/07/dodgers-16-rock.html

``He wasn't aggressive,'' Torre said. ``Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone to get him. It looked like he was trying to protect the lead as opposed to going out and pitching.''

Stults agreed for the most part,
``I was trying to be aggressive, but I wasn't as sharp throughout as I would have liked to have been,'' he said. ``It was just one of those days. Not pitching for a while (since July 11) could have something to do with it, but that's not really an excuse. You just have to go out there and execute pitches.''

Ned will make some kinds of moves, and betting here is it is something we won't like...

...someone young with potential for a 2 month rental of some kind

...someone young and on the rise sent down to AAA to make room for a Ned veteran

Old news from Gurnick, but perhaps worth repeating: Torre said Kershaw's promotion was decided before the All-Star break, which will fuel speculation that it could pave the way for the trade of a pitcher. In a big deal, that could mean Lowe. He, like Penny, could be a free agent after this season. In a smaller deal, it could mean Eric Stults, who started Monday night and figures to get bumped by Penny if no starting pitcher is dealt.

nput

BTW, today is Kershaw's 9th start. The 9th Bond movie was "The Man With the Golden Gun."

I think we have our future thread subtitle!