In response to dzzrtRatt's last post in previous thread:

I thought LaRoche should have been the starter last year. That is two years that we have wasted "evaluating" him. To me, that means that we will never give him a real shot to win the job.

My quietly LAT'd last post to which 1 refers:

234 Blocking LaRoche is the one element that doesn't bug me. He's going to get his chances. Blake is a competent substitute for Kent on his days off, in fact he's Kent slump insurance. Blake is also going to take days off and LaRoche will get worked in. If the Dodgers fall out of contention, which remains a strong possibility, LaRoche will get even more opportunities. I think this year is kind of a write-off for LaRoche, hopefully one from which he'll learn a few things. I see him emerging out of ST 09 as the clear winner at 3B. His performance so far this year hasn't earned him the job, admittedly mostly because life is unfair. But this deal exerts a positive gravitational influence on the long-term 3B situation, and LaRoche will be the primary beneficiary.

Unless the GM trades him tonight.

My thought on Blake...

They needed to upgrade offense but at what position? Had to be left side of the infield. Torre the other did took somewhat of a skeptical view of what he expects out of Garciaparra saying "a routine grounder at 3rd and his calf exploded".

I bet DeWitt goes down until rosters expand. LaRoche sees some time at 3rd but also at SS giving Nomar some time off. LaRoche is also good off the bench with his ability to take lots of pitches. Then next year when Blake is gone it's back to LaRoche/DeWitt to battle for the starting job.

I was going to look for LaRoche's BABIP numbers, so thanks. It has seemed as though he's clobbered a lot of balls straight into gloves. A couple last night. Luck (good or bad) only evens out with sample size, and it doesn't look like his will increase much.

I'm reserving judgment until I see how the beard looks in Dodger blue.

I'm guessing it will look...Glorious.

To add to my previous comment..

If you don't like this deal what should Ned have done? We don't want to see less of Loney, Martin, Ethier, and Kemp. He can't move Jones or Pierre. If you want to upgrade the offense it had to be at 2B, SS, or 3B. Moving Kent would be difficult I think. So that leaves SS/3B. I'm all for giving LaRoche a shot but it should have been earlier in the season. With just two months left and desperate for offense I think he had to roll the dice. It's a decent gamble without giving up too much.

6 As someone who doesn't like the deal, nothing would have been a much better idea.

In the Broncos cafeteria today, I was sitting at a table full of football scouts and writers who were going on and on about what an idiot Ned is. I didn't say a peep.

I think something must be wrong with Meloan, so I don't hate this trade. It could have been much worse. Matt Kemp for a CC rental would have given me a heart attack.

6. With the best pitching in the NL if the Dodgers missed the playoffs I think everyone would have been all over Ned for not doing something. I'm not sure Blake is the answer but it's a shot and didn't cost much IMO.

If we wanted a James Longstreet look-alike, we should have just hired one as a mascot. Or a third-base coach. Going to these lengths is ridiculous.

Whether LaRoche or DeWitt gets sent down this afternoon will go a long way toward telling us what the Dodgers think of LaRoche. I think that (a) not everyone in the Dodger brass agrees on him, and (b) Torre, in particular, doesn't trust him. Perhaps they'll trade him during the offseason. Perhaps they'll sign some PVL to a one-year deal (Nomar?) and let him compete with LaRoche for next year's third-base job. Perhaps they'll send Andy to the island of Crete as a human sacrifice. At this point nothing would surprise me except LaRoche being flat-out handed a job.

When it's gotten to the point where Rob Neyer is making "Free Andy LaRoche!" posts on random internet message boards, well, that's when your treatment of the player has passed the point of ridiculousness.

According to one poster at BTF, Blake is likely to be a Type A free agent, so I guess that's one good thing about it, as long as the Dodgers do the smart thing and let him walk. (Then again, is there any team in baseball who would actually give up two first-round draft picks so they could sign Casey Friggin' Blake?)

I will say I'm a fan of Blake's .433 OBP over the past month.

Blake replaces Blake (and Andy).

Anybody want Manny for LaRoche et al.? Buster Olney:

> "They could make a deal with the Dodgers, who are overloaded with outfielders but have a manager in Joe Torre who is accustomed to dealing with star players with diva issues. The offer from L.A. would start with third baseman Andy LaRoche, conceivably."

Also, this gave me a chuckle:

Adrian Beltre of Seattle wasn't an option because the Dodgers are among the 10 teams listed in his limited no-trade clause, according a baseball source who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Meloan has a chance to be a good reliever, but it's not him I'm worried about. It's Santana who's got "star" written all over him. If the trade had been A.J. Ellis and Meloan for Blake, I wouldn't like it then either, but it wouldn't be cringeworthy or a firing offense like it is now.

Memo to Ned: There are a lot of GMs who are much, much smarter than you are. Mark Shapiro is one of them. Try not to deal with those guys if you can help it. Thank you.

9. I agree. And I agree with ToyCannon in his post over at TBLA that Colletti is working as much to audition for his next job as he is to save his job here. What's best for the Dodgers long-term is not is top priority. He needs to look like Juan Pierre - a guy who tries really hard.

Manny for LaRoche? Dude, you gotta do that deal, as long as you move Pierre and/or Andruw Jones is part of the salary dump. The Red Sox aren't broke and they picked up a guy like Lowell just because they could pay his big contract especially when it looked like he was done a couple of seasons ago.

Beltre's agent is a dope.

(I know, I know, if I'm so smart, why aren't I as rich as Boras.)

But jeez, there is only one team out there whose fans have good memories of Beltre as a real masher, and that's the folks here in LA who shouted MVP MVP whenever he came to bat in the late summer of '04. Only one place where a trade for Beltre would garner good press. Putting LA on the no-trade list is cutting off nose to spite face.

I think the only evidence Ned has that LaRoche is a viable major league player is that other teams keep asking for him.

Tonight's lineup is tough to call. Outside shot that Pierre sits for Ethier or Blake plays LF with Andy at 3B.

I would love to have Manny Ramirez, but don't we already have enough of a logjam problem in the outfield?

LaRoche would love Fenway. He'd be like Nomar was there, bangin' balls off the monster all day.

I don't see why Theo Epstein would be willing to eat Pierre's or Jones's contracts. Maybe Pierre's. Boston can afford a $9M/yr 4th outfielder.

But this is Buster Olney we're talking about. Buster Olney might know less about baseball than Ned Colletti.

Jones and LaRoche for Ramirez would be a dream date.

16 Maybe J.D. can give Jones some of his secret career-revivin' sauce.

Jones and LaRoche for Manny? Done.

An OF of Manny-Kemp-Ethier/Pierre sounds like fun.

16. Even the Red Sox aren't going to pick up Jones. No one else is going to pay him $18 million next year and the $6ish million this year. You might get a taker on Pierre but only if you eat most of that salary and accept next to nothing in return.

14 Memo to Ned: There are a lot of GMs who are much, much smarter than you are. Mark Shapiro is one of them. Try not to deal with those guys if you can help it. Thank you.

18 I think the only evidence Ned has that LaRoche is a viable major league player is that other teams keep asking for him.

I like the juxtaposition of these two comments. If Ned were aware that most GMs were smarter than he is, he might take their demands as measures of value. So he needs to heed 14 before he can follow the logic of 18 . The only thing worse than a dumb boss is a dumb boss who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Reminds me of Larry Hagman's character in "The Eagle has Landed."

6. You're assuming he had to do anything, trade wise. The real ? is did this help the team to get better? Can you honestly say that it did or that there wasn't already an option at 3B, if the 'brain rust' was willing to be a little more patient to see if some of those hard hits of Andy's started to miss gloves rather than find them. As far as torre not having any confidence in LaRoche, there is the option of his boss telling him 'I don't care what you think, play him.', ala Jabba.

I love tuning into ESPN radio to try to get some baseball scores and instead getting an hour of drivel about Brett Favre. Arrrgghh. I stopped caring about his wishy washy retirement/unretirement about 5 minutes after it was first a story. Zzzzzzzzz.

I'm looking forward to the Beard coming.

As to Jon's question, I actually don't think the Dodgers have given up on LaRoche. (Which doesn't mean I'd be shocked if he was traded, either.) But I think they still favor his longterm outlook over DeWitt's. Just mho. The Manny trade idea is certainly intriguing but I don't think that's anything more than a figment of Olney's vivid imagination.

Boston is just looking for a sucker to take Ramirez off their hands. If they can't find one, they will almost certainly decline the team option of $20 million for 2009 and Ramirez will be a free agent this offseason anyway. He's not worth $20 mil anymore.

This is a guy who has more attitude in his little finger than Matt Kemp has in his whole body, is declining as a hitter and could potentially collapse, listens to MP3s in the outfield, gives back much of his hitting value with his historically awful defense, and would be lucky to get through two weeks without being punched in the face by Jeff Kent.

RE Meloan. He has some recoil in his delivery. This makes him more of an injury risk. It would have been nice if the dodgers pumped his stats as a reliever first. Then sell.

LA would have to pick up Manny's two option years for $40M total, so putting Pierre or Andruw in the deal is vital for LA. But why would Boston choose to take either of those contracts on, when they can just let Manny walk at the end of the year for free? To get LaRoche? That's a pretty hefty price to pay to get Andy.

I don't see Boston really rushing to trade Manny. He means more to them than he would to any other team, and he's still a pretty good hitter.

20-If Buster knows anything, it's what the Red Sox and Yankees are about to do. Seriously. He's BFF with Brian Cashman, and I bet he's tight with Theo Epstein as well.

The Sawx would never take Andruw Jones, but I could see them having interest in Juan Pierre. Ellsbury has been slumping, bad, so they might want some speed to spell him at the top of the line-up if he continues to slump into August and September. Pierre on the Red Sox actually kind of works because they already have players who can hit homeruns.

Pierre and LaRoche for Manny, and drinks are on me. Gosh, that would be a great day. They'd probably eat most of what he's owed this year, too, given his phantom injury and the fact that Manny's attitude has put him on clearance.

27

Jeff Kent gone after this year, he's going into movies.

Jeff will be staring in a new franchise vehicle updated for him by the Cohen Brothers; Grumpy Old Men, Barry Bonds is going to play the other role.

30

Andruw is being traded to the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company, never can tell when you can use another blimp.

and would be lucky to get through two weeks without being punched in the face by Jeff Kent.

Like I said: Fun.

18 I think the only evidence Ned has that LaRoche is a viable major league player is that other teams keep asking for him.

That's not really true. They keep asking for LaRoche as part of a cast of thousands, including Kemp. Smart GM's mumble LaRoche's name as if they're offering him a ride to the mall; as if he's doing Ned a favor by lightening his load.

The good news is Blake is actually on pace to become a Type A free agent. Last year he was the first Type B player, just below Mora (a type A). He is having a better season than last year. If he continues his current pace he should be in the A category and even an injury shouldn't knock him out of the Type B area. They base the rankings on two years. The interesting thing is he would have qualified as a Type A last year if he played in the National League.

14 Melvin Mora 73.714 A
15 Casey Blake 72.571 B

33. Nonetheless, they're probably not mumbling Blake DeWitt's name. A smart Dodger GM would understand the importance of the difference.

Manny = LaRoche + JP would be nice. Then let Manny walk, fire Ned, and sign more reasonable FAs. But then who plays 3B next year? 2B?

36 - Manny's got a no-trade clause and option years left, so he won't allow himself to be traded somewhere that will just let him walk. We'd have Manny for the long haul.

37 Sweeet. So what you're saying is that LaRoche + X for Jack Wilson is what is really going to happen. I heard Jack is a gamer. Does he have a beard?

BoSox might put Manny on waivers: http://tinyurl.com/69mkkt

Way I look at it, when the Dodgers eventually are knocked out of the playoffs(or don't make it), McCourt is going to make a quick decision to sack Ned Coletti, and then install current front runner Logan White. The oddest thing is that football teams even in the largest markets such as Miami, New York, and Chicago allow themselves a year or two to get back to respectability, and yet baseball teams in similar large markets can't.

39 Wow, that sounds like rampart speculation.

"If we get one of the best young hitters in baseball such as Matt Holiday, then the Red Sox are going to put Manny on waivers, but only if!!!!!!"

http://ussmariner.com/

Washburn has just been traded to the Yanks.

honest question: what about moving Pierre to second? he's got enough speed to have good range, his arm would be neutralized, and the offensive numbers he gives wouldn't be terrible for a second baseman.

Would he have the skill set to play second?

Let's be realistic, if the Dodgers got Manny, the outfield would be Pierre, Jones, Rameriz, left to right (or gawd forbid, right to left).

BH, if you're out there I sent you an email.

I thought it was common practice for most of the players to be put on waivers so that GMs could gauge interest for possible trades.

43. Pierre happens to throw with his left arm.

>>>>Blake has bizarre career stolen-base numbers: 31 for 58.

See thats why he is considered a gamer. He doesn't let repeated failure alter him. Kind of like Ned with transactions.

43
You do know that Juan is LH and can never turn a double play because of that? There is a reason no one plays LH at 2nd base.

34
That is only relevant if two things happen.

1. We need to offer him arbitration and have him turn us down.

2. Some team feels the need to sign Blake and cost themselves a number one pick.

Does anyone see that scenario playing out?

I like Casey Blake but he's probably not a good match for this team other then as insurance and again, this kind of insurance shouldn't be so expensive.

I can live with this deal but I said that about Navarro and Jackson. At some point instead of living with a deal, I'd like to be impressed with a deal. Hopefully this will be the last trade Ned makes as a Dodger GM. This might be the first time McCourt is showing that money means something by giving them Santana for them paying Blake's salary for this year.

42 - according to espnews, they're still working on a deal

I don't see the big fuss about this deal.

If anything I see it as the club showing confidence in LaRoche, fact is they're in the middle of a playoff race and are getting no production out of 3B. They saw an oppurtinity to upgrade at 3B (in their minds) so they did becuase they need help offensively. It's not like Blake is gonna be a fixture on this team, I'm sure he won't be re-signed for next season. I see it as Andy we still have faith in you but we need help so next year you're our guy.

With that being said, Andy hasnt had a chance to prove himself and I'm sure he could do the same exact thing Casey does this year.

I don't see the big deal trading Santana, I see it as a sell high move, this is a guy that had a .688 OPS at 21 yrs old in class A. And as discussed before many people saw Santana's value mostly as a trading chip.

43 , 48 - details. yeah, totally forgot he's left handed.

If you're Ned and you're going to do the Blake deal, it doesn't make sense to stop there. I see him dealing LaRoche to the A's for Crosby.

Ned knows he has to make it to the playoffs to keep his job.

BRING BACK MARK BELLHORN.

The question is, if he makes it to the playoffs by punting the future, does McCourt fire him anyway?

52 - if Blake was signed beyond this year, I'd agree with you. But here, if they trade LaRoche, they are looking at having to fill three infield spots next year, instead of just two. Granted, I'd prefer to have an infield of Loney, DeWitt, Hu, and LaRoche over the next five to seven years.

I don't see McCourt approving the trades and then canning Ned if he makes the playoffs.

I actually think we could make a run in the playoffs if we could get there. I just don't see us getting there.

D'Backs are much better than they've been playing.

I think this will turn out to be one of Ned's better acquisitions (not that he had a high bar to clear or anything). Blake is definitely an offensive upgrade, we didn't give up Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, etc. and Blake is gone at the end of the year and we get compensation picks. Unless the confidence in LaRoche is completely gone (which it shouldn't be) then I see this as a win-win. Of course, we all have seen good-at-the-time deals turn sour, I'm looking at you Schmidt and Jones!

27

For being in decline, Manny has sure hit a lot better this year than last year. And regardless of whether he is decline or not, he still is a far, far better bat than anyone we have on this club.

If it's a matter of watching him play in LF over the next 2 years or Juan Pierre, I know who I am choosing.

Was there any discussion in the prior thread about what the corresponding 40-man roster move is going to be? Even if LaRoche or DeWitt is demoted, someone else has to be dumped from the 40-man to make room for Blake. Is this the day the music died for Mark Sweeney?

Let's be clear on one thing. Ned Colletti knows he has no future in LA if the Dodgers don't seize the chance to win the weak NL West now. So he has no compunction whatsoever about trading a Meloan, Santana or even LaRoche or McDonald if it means winning in 2008. It's up to McCourt to check these natural inclinations, but McCourt may be getting so impatient that he has no problem endorsing more young guys leaving town..
All the elements are there for Dodger pockets to be picked further by sharper GM's and virtually any other major league GM with a pulse meets the definition of "sharper".. Colletti loves "unsung" veterans, and he's shown an unswerving tendency to buy them at the very heighth of their value. Blake is putting up an 830 OPS this yr. against a career 789. He's also had this nasty tendency,like other guys in their decline phase to fade in the second half. Over the last 2 yrs his OPS has plunged 140 pts in the 2nd half.. But his superficial #'s look good enough for Colletti. Colletti also has no problem dealing younger players not high on the local media's radar screen (Denker, Jackson, Navarro, Guzman, Meloan, etc). Finally, he has a veteran Mgr. who likes vets, is getting impatient with LaRoche, and has the owner's ear.
All the elements for a perfect storm exist - beleagured GM who doesn't know how to evaluate talent properly, impatient owner, feckless local media when it comes to critiquing deals, and Mgr who loves his vets. You think more young talent is soon to be swept away for yet more overrated mediocre vets ? You bet your bippee..

59 Wasn't Meloan on the 40-man?

58 The Red Sox have decided Manny's no longer worth the trouble he brings, and that they need him off their team at any cost. I am willing to go along with their judgment on that -- if there's anyplace where a talented malcontent could thrive, it's Boston. Once even Boston gets tired of you, your only option is likely New York.

Red Sox management has essentially accused Manny (off the record) of throwing games. That's about as serious as it gets. I don't want him around. And the chances of Ned acquiring him are about the same as those of acquiring Roger Maris.

61 Yes.

61 Oh. Duh. My eagerness to get rid of Mark Sweeney is showing, isn't it?

56 The D'Backs may be much better than they've been playing, but aren't we too? There are many parallels between us and them, but I feel we have the edge because of our bullpen.

Hey LAT -- hitting the stadium with your pals this weekend.

I'd pass on some more talking points, but none of them would let you show off as a gracious guest. ;)

64 Who knows? He might be disabled again.

48 Blake has put up good enough numbers that someone will give him a multi-year contract even if it does cost them their 1st round pick.

59 - according to Dodgers.com, Blake is already on the 40 man roster.

Definitely makes the team better now. I think its a good trade if Santana doesnt turn into another Russ Martin, although it sounds like Logan White carries a veto pen these days, so I suspect that's not likely going to be the case...

I don't see the big deal trading Santana, I see it as a sell high move, this is a guy that had a .688 OPS at 21 yrs old in class A. And as discussed before many people saw Santana's value mostly as a trading chip. >>>
That was also the year they converted him into a Catcher.. Plus, young players do not have a perfectly straight line upward every year. Loney had a 638 OPS as a 20 yr old, and even struggled in AAA last yr (727). Yes, Santana is a tad old for high A, and yes, his 995 OPS this year is Cal League-fueled. But he also has a career .383 OBP and 841 OPS in the minors. His plate discipline looks quite similar to Martin's. This is a real good sign. He's still raw behind the plate now, but this has some real potential to come back to haunt. As might the departure of Meloan. These guys will be doing things in the majors long after Blake is gone from the Dodgers (which hopefully is next year)..

It seems like everyone is assuming LaRoche is a more valuable chip than Santana. Single A or not, catchers who can hit are rare.

The big joke trade of the weekend is the Pirates / Yanks deal. The Pirates got nothing.

This deal is why it was a bad idea to insist that fairness demanded DeWitt be permitted to play himself out of the 3B spot. They spent a month not learning what they had, and then acquired a marginal player to replace a good one, because a third player hadn't been hitting. But it's okay, because none of what was dealt were the crown jewels.

72 LaRoche still has a future with the Dodgers, barring a position change Santana didn't have much of a future with the Dodgers.

73

Blake has proven that he is better than a marginal player.

LaRoche has not.

74. That's been said a dozen times, but it makes the mistake of looking at the two players in isolation. Santana might have been a better trade chip later (since the Dodgers didn't need Blake). Or if he developed, Martin could have been a chip or a salary dump once he got expensive. Especially prospects in A-Ball, it's shortsighted to look at current holes on the 25-man roster.

Unless you're a GM with a 3-month time horizon.

Hey, Sam. Going tonight with them. I made the mistake of going to Capitol Punishment to see what was going on. Not only is it mostly shut down but the posts from a couple of weeks ago were brutal. My question, if I can work it in, is why not sign Barry. This seems like a no brainer. He can't mess up team chemestry or a post season run--none of these things matter at this point. But he would sell seats and bring the team some national coverage. Of course we all know why neither the Nats nor any other team will sign Barry cause Bud says not to.

74 Dodger backup catchers have combined to hit .220 with 1 home run over the last two seasons. And the importance of the role will only be increasing in the coming years as Martin ages. Not to mention which, Martin has shown little interest in staying with the Dodgers long-term, and Santana would be ready for a full-time major league job right around the time we'd lose Martin to free agency. Just in case.

I'm not sure why people keep insisting that we need to trade every good young catcher we get. There is a place for them. It's called backup catcher, and it's a reasonably important role, and one for which the Dodgers have consistently failed to find a major league-caliber player.

Blake has put up good enough numbers that someone will give him a multi-year contract even if it does cost them their 1st round pick.

I think his age (35), will keep that from happening.

76--Exactly.

75 This sort of nonsensical thinking is what needs to stop.

Your statement can be made of any young player who hasn't been given a full chance. If you're going to say it about LaRoche, you need to say it about Kershaw too, because it applies to him just as well. At various times it could also have been said of Broxton, Kemp, Loney. The possibilities are endless. It's a completely meaningless thing to say.

Pretty good question.

Here's mine, are they happy with the state of the organization after three years in DC, 2 years owning the team? They've bought in a good number of new prospects, but not many top drawer guys. There's no David Price or really any #1 starter in the entire system. My feeling is they've tried to rebuild and compete at the same time and haven't maximized their rebuilding by trading pieces, sucking for a while and getting top 5 draft picks, etc. From here, it seems like a lot of lost time.

The other fun story -- they are withholding rent on the new $611M stadium from the city for failure to complete punch list items. No idea of the merits of the dispute, but they are getting creamed in the City for that.

There may be a lot of reasons to trade Santana, but having a good ML catcher right now is not one of them in my view. The guy is in A ball; Choi knows what might happen between now and the time he is ready for the majors.

81 sure laroche can be a very good hitter (i believe he will be), but what if i'm wrong? than we're stuck with a 80 OPS+ at 3B down the stretch run. at this moment you have to say casey blake has a much better chance of being above average the rest of the year than laroche or dewitt

78 I thought I was the only one who thought that Martin was out of here first chance he gets.

So we got the second-best player released by the Twins in 2002.

I think his age (35), will keep that from happening.

Keep him from being signed to a multi year deal, or cost someone a first round pick?

Josh Hamilton now has 103 RBI's in 104 games.

At CBP:

Atlanta 000 90
Phila. 021 07

As I said in teh very first trade Colletti made, if you trade away prospects for complete garbage - as he has done in every trade he has made - you will eventually kill the franchise. When I suggested that Baez and Cater for Jackson and Tiffany was a franchise killing deal. It looks like some of you are starting wake up to how colossally stupid Ned is. This deal was really no worse - from a probabilities perspective - it just happened to involve someone to whom several of you became attached. That, however, is not why this deal - yet another franchise killing deal - is so terrible. It is almost inevitable that one of the half-dozen prospects Ned has dealt away for practically no return is going to become a league average player. That is how you cost your team so much cash that they are unable to make a huge free-agent signing or from keeping one of your greats when they hit free-agency.

Imagine if Ned had not spent a dime on anyone of the signings he made and traded away the same players he has traded for equal value in positions the Dodgers needed instead. Then rather than a ton of cash sitting on the bench or the DL, he signed a superstar instead - there have been a good 4 to 5 available the last few years. That is how you build a successful franchise. Do what Ned does, and you kill one.

Mike Hampton is alive? And pitching?

The Griddle has been covering Mike Hampton's comeback attempts quite closely.

Sam, I think the answer to your first question depends on who you ask. Pure speculation, but I'd guess Teddy is happy with the state of the organization if they are making money, which the articles suggest they are. Mark, I believe, is about winning and I'm guessing he would like the team to be doing better in terms of wins and loses.

As for the second issues, I'll leave it alone as I'm sure its a sensitive issue. But I would not expect Ted Lerner to back down.

89 yes, but how do you think Ned is doing as Dodger GM?

Someone will sign Blake and at 35 he will refuse arbitration. He probably wants a three to four year deal to finish off his career. If he takes arbitration the maximum he can win is around the 5-7 million range. If that happens, the Dodgers can just move him at the next trade deadline. Lots of teams would take a 36 yr old third baseman with the same stats and only the remaining year to pay him.

81

Kershaw has already had more success in MLB at age 20 than LaRoche has at age going to be 25 in 6 weeks.

Besides I was responding to the assertion that Blake is a marginal player while LaRoche is a good player. The former is simply not true if you believe that OPS+ has any value. The latter has yet to be proven.

I agree that LaRoche's minor league track record has earned him a better chance to prove himself in MLB than he has been given to this point. However, he has not had that chance and he has proven nothing in MLB to this point other than that he is unlucky.

92 All makes sense. Have fun. You have my email if any real scuttlebutt comes up!

95 I, for one, am not sold on LaRoche. He seems to be the darling of this site, but so far I don't see it.

I am not willing to say yet whether he has been unlucky or that is all there is to him...

not so different from Jeff Kent...line drives that used to hit the gaps in the outfield are now AT the shortstop or third baseman...is that bad luck or age....

The former is simply not true if you believe that OPS+ has any value.

A no glove thirdbaseman with a 104 career OPS+ is not a good player. He's better than garbage, surely, but I'm pretty content calling him marginal. I think he's not as good as his current OPS+, and would bet a signed, glossy 8x10 D4P headshot that it will be lower by the end of the year.

I think it's not an open and shut case that another team would blow its first round pick on Blake. I think BH is right that the Dodgers would be better off if Blake is a type B FA. Though I don't have a lot of faith that some team is going to bail Colletti out by signing him before the arb deadline.

I'm fine with the deal, providing the plan is to also send down DeWitt; we'll never know what Laroche would have done had he just been given the 3B job outright, but CBlake is a known commodity, should hit well, and can also play other infield positions. Only being a game out of first place, any offensive upgrade could make the difference.
Meloan has promise but is expendable. We fret that Santana might turn out to be great - which is a risk, I grant that - but given Martin's hold on the job, he wouldn't be in line for several years at least. Selling high for the purpose of an upgrade this year is OK by me. And hopefully we can get a draft pick out of CBlake at the end of the year.

His career OPS+ is 106, not 104. Oops.

Pop quiz: name the last 22-year old catcher with A-ball power and plate discipline that we traded away. Hint: not Dioner Navarro.

Rosenthal thinks it's "a good deal for the Dodgers." Whew! Don't I feel better!

101 Frank Stallone?

If the Dodgers really do parlay Blake into two first-round picks, then I might have to reconsider my judgment of the trade. But they've never made a trade with draft picks in mind before, and I don't see any reason they'd start now.

I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised. My expectation, however, is that the D's will either re-sign Blake themselves or decline to offer him arbitration.

101
Jim Campanis?

I thought the Indians would send Santana straight to AA, but Rosenthal says they're sending him to the Midwest League.

106 He also says that Meloan will immediately switch back to relief.

106
The Midwest League teaches you to be tough! You've got to watch your back in that league. It's not like some wussy California League.

Diamond says there's no roster move yet, but DeWitt is facing Penny in a simulation game.

It's going to be LaRoche sent down. It's gotta be. For the RH/LH thing if nothing else.

IMO the Dodgers are not really about winning ball games, but about how many butts they can put in the stadium. All Franky cares about is the bottom line, and looking good in the press. We'll see for sure if I'm right after this season if Ned is gone or not. Blake was a PR move, so that they can say they did something. After all, this is a big market team without a true #1 pitcher, and a true run producing hitter, and a GM that really has no clue how or where to find them.

Chad Billingsley is a bona fide ace.

Is there a way to look at the LaRoche's starting the last four games as something other than a showcase, now, knowing that Colletti was getting another 3B?

Remember, always pass on the first showcase. The second one always has a lot better stuff in it.

112. No. You're not an ace until ESPN says you're an ace. They are the ones who decide who is of bona fide, not you.

86 that stray "of"

111 Billingsley meets any remotely reasonable definition of a #1 starter.

Some people seem to be under the impression that only the top 5 pitchers in baseball are #1 starters. Billingsley is about, what, the 12th or 15th best? That's easy #1 territory.

The Dodgers also have some run-producing hitters. I don't know about "true" ones. They've won World Series before without superstar hitters. They're nice to have, certainly, but they're not a prerequisite for success. Having a number of just-pretty-good hitters usually works just as well.

114- In the fever swamp of my paranoid, reptilian brain, Ethier sat last night, and presumably will today, because Kemp is the second showcase. Torre said that Ethier should be patient with him. . .

101 The question is a little misleading, but I think you're talking about Piazza.

78 Martin has shown little interest in signing a long term deal locking out his arbitration years. Martin and his agent knows he can make more money that way, that doesn't equate with Martin trying to leave the Dodgers as a FA first chance he gets.

100

And it's significantly higher than that if you look at the last 4.5 years.

Regardless, I believe that there are categories between good and marginal, with marginal in my book meaning someone on the fringe of MLB (e.g. Angel Berroa).

Blake's range and glove are questionable, but he has a good arm. Combine that with a plus bat, and I think that you have a slightly plus player.

If he plays for us at the level that he has for the Indians and helps us get into the playoffs while costing us no money and turning into picks in the offseason giving LaRoche a full offseason to prepare for a starting 3B role next rather than thrusting him in the middle of a pennant race while already struggling... than I am not going to complain... unless Martin leaves us in two years while Santana turns out to prove that he is closer to his Cal League numbers than his Great Lakes and Vero Beach ones.

119 I don't completely understand the question, either, but Konerko was a couple months more recent than Piazza.

Bills could be an ace, but is he in the Peavey, Webb, Sabathia class? I think he will be in the future but not quite yet. As for multiple run producers, again some of them were , and some will be if they're allowed to remain here, but not quite yet. The Dodgers IMO are either to young or to old. They really don't have anyone in their primes other than JP and Raffy, and we all know about them.

101 The answer is Sergio Pedroza. The Guzman/Lugo deal.

Sergio hit 28 home runs in A/A+ in 2006.

The Phillies and Rays were the two runners-up to Los Angeles in the bidding on Casey Blake, according to sources with knowledge of those negotiations. But neither team was willing to meet the Indians' price of one high-ceiling prospect and one secondary prospect closer to the big leagues. Both teams made multiplayer offers, but Cleveland preferred the Dodgers' package -- and informed all three teams of that decision Saturday morning.

123 Then only five teams have aces.

That's a pretty strict way of looking at true #1 starters, especially since Billingsley's numbers this year are phenomenal.

There's only one catcher on the AAA roster. Is that normal?

123 "Bills could be an ace, but is he in the Peavey, Webb, Sabathia class?"

Yes, absolutely he is.

I can't check VORP right now because the Prospectus site is down. But in ERA+, Billingsley ranks 16th in MLB. Webb is 9th, Peavy 13th, and Sabathia 23rd. So Billingsley is right in the middle of that group.

He might get better, yes. But the fact that someone might improve doesn't mean he's not already ace-caliber. And Billingsley is. Honestly, it's not really a debatable point.

Is it Gary Bennett?

129 A.J. Ellis.

Actually, never mind. Rene Rivera is listed as a 1B.

Sergio Pedroza update: 724 OPS, 4 HR in 260 AB for the AA Montgomery Biscuits.

127 Rene Rivera, listed under infielders, is also a catcher.

With Santana gone, is May the only promising catcher left in the system? I honestly don't know who else is down there.

So we're all in agreement Jason Johnson is not an ace.

Time to convert some shortstops to catcher again so we can shop them next year.

135 Already done. Tony Delmonico, who just signed.

121- I think we have a semantic disagreement. My hierarchy puts marginal below average, but above fringe. On the margin of being (in a vacuum) a useful addition.

Wow, until this year Blake couldn't buy a hit w/ RISP. Not a small sample size either 400+AB 0.200/0.228/0.328 2005-2007. Wish I hadnt seen that.

Not-old friend Eric Stults is starting for Vegas tonight, speaking of the 51s.

Don't forget 2008 draftees Jett (love the name) Bandy and Ryan Arp.

Now if only we combined them and had Jett Arp at catcher I would have a new favorite catching prospect. (Actually, only Arp was signed, Bandy was not.)

131

With Joel Guzman putting up a .705 OPS in 380 PAs (with 14 BB to 90 SO), I think that this may be one trade that does not come back to bite us.

Kind of odd, the Indians acquiring Anthony Reyes today. Maybe makes sense for them more long term; he's going to their AAA team.

--

I wonder if the A's will sneak in and grab Jason Bay, with all the prospects they've been stockpiling.

136
He's been playing 2nd base so maybe they don't convert him until after the season. Kenley Jansen intrigues me as a potential backup. He is supposed to be quite advanced defensively and has a little pop.
People might laugh at the numbers he's putting up in the Midwest League but they aren't much different then what Carlos Santana did.
Carlos Santana seems to a be hot weather hitter and I find it interestsing that Cleveland is sending him back to the Midwest where he struggled for us last year. Other then July in 2007 he really had a bad year.

I'm pretty sure they're going to send LaRoche back down to Vegas. He hasn't shown anything up here, and Torre prefers DeWitt.

Since Colletti is an idiot, I'm hoping this trade is the only one we'll see. My guess is that Colletti is a lame duck, and McCourt will veto any trade involving any of our top young players.

137

Ah I see: 'marginal' then 'fringe' then 'on the margin.

Such delicate layers of gray. I am impressed.

106 I 'm not sure, but I don't think Cleveland has an affiliate in the Midwest League... Rosenthal = D'oh

142 I got some bad information. Kinston is in the Carolina League, not the Midwest League.

And talk about your racist team logos... theirs takes the cake. Sheesh.

145 No, that wasn't Rosenthal, it was me.

Enders=D'oh.

(Why does that word have an apostrophe, anyway?)

From reading comments on the Cleveland Plain Dealer blog's post about the trade with LA, although admittedly people are both all over the map and not everyone is all that educated about minor leaguers, but most of the people there seemed to be... anyway, the general consensus seems to be that they like the young players the Indians acquired and that they will miss Casey Blake a lot. A few people hate the trade, a few people think it a steal for Cleveland, but all the other comments I read (and there were a lot of them) pointed to how much they will miss Blake. Not always sure whether they'll miss his beard and his locker room character vs. his actual on-field contributions but... for what it's worth.

Those who are more educated about prospects like the players LA gave them. A few people are tired of hearing about "waiting 2-3 years" for these things to come to fruition. (As they likely will for Santana, not for Meloan.)

"Now if only we combined them and had Jett Arp at catcher I would have a new favorite catching prospect."

And if he added an extra "A" to his surname maybe Colletti would actually give him a chance.

146
The Simpsons writing staff declared that Homer's interjection was to be spelled "D'Oh" and that's how it has been in the closed captioning for years.

150 Yes, but: Why?

151

Bob only has the answers. Not the reasons.

152
Sort of like "The Charge of the Light Brigade."

152
Yes, but: Why?

It's "Annoyed Grunt" in the scripts.

155

I'll just start writing "Annoyed Grunt" from now on when Pierre starts, Jones Ks, Torre talks, and Colletti deals.

ESPN.com's "Featured Comment" is from a disgruntled Cleveland fan who feels like the team is selling out its faithful. To wit:

1. No longer Jacobs Field. 2. Then kicking CC out the door. 3. Now kicking Casey out.

146 Ai caramba, that's terrible.
(For the morbidly curious:
http://www.kinstonindians.com/)

158

Makes me think of my favorite Anthrax song.

Everybody has a favorite Anthrax song, right?

159 - Rock on.

This one?
"Forced out-Brave and Mighty
Stolen land-They can't fight it
Hold on-To pride and tradition
Even though they know how
much their lives are really
missin'
We're dissin' them..."

160

That's the one.

After losing Casey Blake the demoralized Cleveland Indians are down 6-0 to the Twins.

FJM's new piece on Skip Bayless and Stephen A. Smith trying pathetically to be film critics (by dissecting The Dark Knight) is priceless, man, priceless.

162 Hopefully poor Meloan won't have to suffer long in Buffalo. Maybe they can call him up mid-game.

149 - Enders, that was brilliant! Once I figured it out I LOLed hard at that one. Thanks for the laugh.

http://www.snpp.com/guides/dohs.html

Going to miss the first part of the game so all I'll say is...

Beat Odalis!

From the AP story about the Cubs-Marlins game:
"Notre Dame football coach Charlie Weiss (sic) sang "Take Me Out To The Ball Game" during the seventh-inning stretch and was booed when he was introduced."

So it looks like I've scored the primo LAT seats for this game behind the Nats dugout thanks to bhsportsguy.

Do I put on the checkerboard shirt?

168 Was that a promotional tie-in with Samardzija's (?) call-up, or what?

157 Did you see the screen name of that commenter? "loganwhite1"

http://tinyurl.com/5jexzz

95.You think Kershaw has had more success? A SP that can't get through 5 and has had only 1 legit chance for a win is success? Man deN I didn't know you read Dodger blogs.

I think the apostrophe in D'oh is to capture the sputtering, explosive ending to the D sound. Kind of how apostrophes are used to pronounce clicks in Swahili.

Jones is twelve innings worth of CF play away from taking Matt Kemp's spot in BB-ref's chart of Dodger starters.

I'm not really appeased by the fact that this is a sell-high trade, at least with respect to Santana, because the whole point of selling high is to get something impressive in return. I'm not terribly impressed.

147 173 Yeah, an apostrophe can indicate a glottal stop. Maybe that's why they do it that way. But the original, pre-Simpsons, correct spelling of the word is "duh". Duh. It may be more that the Simpsons screenwriters wanted to customize the word for just that reason - so that it would forever spell "Homer Simpson". Sort of like product placement. I can never bring myself to spell it that way.

It's sell high, buy high. Which, were one so inclined, could be interpreted as progress.

Who's got Cotto and who's got Margarito?

Ahh, Google provides context to the mysterious comment above.

Everybody's pretty much said their piece on this already, but I'll just say that this is a trifling, inconsequential trade. If we make the playoffs, it will not be because of this move, and it won't be because of this move that we miss the playoffs.

I feel like this trade really speaks to Ned's GM style however, and displays his utter ineptitude in a way similar to JP Riccardi. I think regfairfield has argued in the past (persuasively, in my mind) that Riccardi's habit of going after low-risk, low-reward players has made his team into a perpetual mediocrity, and I feel like the moves Ned makes are similar, although I'd probably give Riccardi slightly more credit for intelligence than Ned.

The "gamer" thing from Ned's descirption of Blake was pretty hilariously cliched, too.

179
Bob had to look something up...?

Interview with former Dodger prospect Carlos Santana!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMQYzIat7l8

He attributes his play this year to "concentration."

Another pointless trade, made at the wrong time for the wrong players. It smells like the deal that netted the Dodgers Danys Baez and Lance Carter; what makes it worse is that this is not a team capable of going all the way, or even getting out of the first round should they make it to the postseason. Ned Colletti is a real moron, and this deal seals it.

Scariest thing I've read this year...

The reason the Indians were able to get Carlos Santana, a very high-level prospect, in the Casey Blake deal is that the Indians took on all of Blake's remaining $2 million salary. Several general managers around baseball wonder if L.A. doesn't have cash flow problems.

Stults takes demotion to 51s in stride

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/25935479.html

184 oh, and peter gammons wrote that.

This is from Peter Gammons: "The reason the Indians were able to get Carlos Santana, a very high-level prospect, in the Casey Blake deal is that the Indians took on all of Blake's remaining $2 million salary. Several general managers around baseball wonder if L.A. doesn't have cash flow problems."

Now that does make me wonder, what with the $118 million dollar payroll and all, you'd think we'd be able to trade away a prospect with a lower ceiling than Santana and pay $2 million.

184 Damn you got to it first

Could be cash problems. Could be in anticipation of picking up salary somewhere else. Could be the McCourts are sick of watching Colletti throw their money after his problems.

Several general managers around baseball wonder if L.A. doesn't have cash flow problems

Seems to me like there's plenty of cash flowing.

$18 million/year to Jones
$13 to Furcal
$12 to Schmidt
$4 to Torre

etc.

172

The bottom line is that Kershaw had several decent starts from which he was pulled at the first sight of trouble or after he reached a certain pitch count:

5/25 W(4-3) 6.0IP 102PC 2ER
6/04 L(1-2) 5.0IP 104PC 2ER
6/10 W(7-2) 5.1IP 92PC 2ER
6/15 L(5-4) 4.0IP 65PC 0ER (pulled after rain delay)
6/26 L(0-2) 4.0IP 69PC 2ER
7/01 W(7-6) 5.2IP 90PC 3ER

With a little less 'protection' and a little more run support in certain games, Kershaw may very well have picked up a few Ws. Certainly, he pitched well enough in the time that he was alloted in several games to give his team a chance to win.

While not towering success, this is certainly more success than a supposed power-hitting 3B with a grand total of 9 XBH in 189 PA.

Also, Keith Law has a post on Teixeira:

"The market for Mark Teixeira seems to be slowly heating up. The two L.A. clubs have shown the strongest interest, although Boston and Tampa Bay are waiting in the wings. The fit for the Dodgers is less obvious, since a trade would either include James Loney or push him to the bench."

Seems to me like there's plenty of cash flowing.

Uh yeah. That's the problem.

146 When I was in high school, Kinston was a KKK center. Joe Kerrigan, later a big league pitching coach, was playing there for the Expos, and told us one night that it really weirded out the African-American players on the team, for obvious reasons.

Webb vs. Lincecum has begun.

Did no one post the lineup yet? Sorry - I've had it for a couple hours:

Pierre, LF
Kemp, RF
Martin, C
Kent, 2B
Garciaparra, 1B
Blake, 3B
Jones, CF
Berroa, SS
Lowe, RHP

I blame the messenger.

196 - That's as righty heavy as you can get. LaRoche must have got the boot.

192 196 Uh...where's Loney?

That's a hurtful 7 through 1.

196
Sigh.

DeWitt goes down.

199 told to be patient, pulled at the last minute pending resolution of a possible trade

...says the man who posted on the PE blog.

I hope one of the clubhouse attendants has Weaver's old dealer on speed dial. Lowe's going to need something to take the edge off.

Teixeira: Age 28, Career OPS+ 131
Loney: Age 24, Career OPS+ 121

This is Loney's first full season, and his worst with the bat so far.

Teixeira debuted in April 2003, so this is his 6th full season. Not surprisingly, his best years came after his age 24 season, so the only real difference between the two is that Tex is older and more expensive.

Teixeira's counting stats are much more impressive (avg 30+ HRs, etc.) but it since OPS+ adjusts for park and league, it looks like he'd be less impressive in Dodger Stadium than in Arlington or Turner Field.

Eh, I think I'd keep Loney and spend the money on something else. Like buying out young guys' arbitration years.

202 Does that make Andy more or less of a trade candidate?

That is one ugly defensive infield.

Ha! Lowe is pitching, so they took the one good infielder they have (Loney) and benched him.

Genius. Lowe should punch Torre in the nose.

The only way the Blake trade would have been good for the Dodgers was if Pierre had been included.

With an infield of Blake, Nomar and Kent they may as well have traded Lowe since he will be killed by the hits missing the gloves of the old PVLs.

Meloan may become a very good middle reliever, but, Santana may well prove to be a great MLB catcher. He is a very patient switch hitting quality defensive catcher with power. A rare commodity in todays baseball world. Ned just threw him away for a 2 month rental of a PVL 3B with poor defense and decent offense.

I realize Ned is a PVL lover, but good gosh this is not going to help the Dodgers get to the playoffs anymore than letting LaRoche play every day would have.

We will not get any draft choices for Blake since it would not be a good idea to offer a flash in the pan 35 year old arb. However, Ned may bring Blake, Nomar and Kent back for 2009. He has done dumber things.

208. Good point by you, sir. And quick!

203 Are you joking? Did you get that from somewhere?

206

Uh, the Dodgers haven't played a full season yet. Loney's only played in 6 more games this year than last year.

I should've said DeWitt DeMoted.

I could have sworn we had a young team. Must have been wrong.

212 I think that the "told to be patient" line is a clue.

202 hopefully they give him some innings at 2B down there.

DeWitt being optioned should be a good thing for LaRoche.

1-0 Giants in the 1st.

212 I certainly hope so, but with this lineup, nothing would surprise me

218 a good thing how? at least DeWitt will play regularly again and work on hitting...LaRoche will go back to being backup pinch hitter, what good can he gain from that?

220 - DeWitt thinks that sounds good on his flight to Vegas.

I'm guessing Nomar is now the backup 3rd baseman.

222 that would be my assumption as well

221 he will think so, he is a gamer

I see no reason for both Nomar and Berroa to be in there.

Loney never gets a day off (he's played every single day, and started almost all of them), so I wouldn't read too much into it. Let's see if he plays tomorrow and Nomar sits until late innings.

But Ethier sits again. I sure hope that Jon is right and Jones is serving out some pre-arranged time limit (that Torre promised Colletti?) that ends VERY SOON.

Switching Ardoin for Martin is the only way this lineup could be any less productive/younger.

224
We need all our power right hand bats in the game.

Torre figures the defense is better with a shortstop on both sides of the infield

NPUT

225 my gut tells me this team will be getting a lot older before it gets younger

I have a question regarding K rate.

Wouldn't measuring the % hitters struck out be more effective that just looking at K/9IP?

I mean the higher the WHIP the more chances you have to strike someone out, if you K 7 guys in 6 innings and face 30 should that really be measured higher that a guy who stikes out 5 in 6 while only facing 20?

Wow just wow. ROCK BOTTOM!!!

229 I still don't know what that means.

As I've complained before about having insomnia, I found a brief respite yesterday. After a rough night, the wife said I should still try to sleep. And I finally got some deep sleep--from 10am to 6pm! Weird. And then I went back to sleep at 9pm and just woke up, just now. Double weird.

In that time, much has happened with our team and I feel cheated by sleep that I didn't add my two cents. Here's my two cents:

This trade does not help the Dodgers. I'll be at the game on Monday night and I'll be cheering for Casey at the bat but I know and everyone should know that this trade doesn't help. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a nap to get to.

Since it looks like I'm the only one awake on a Sunday morning, I've got the board to myself! Hmmm... this might be fun. Okay, more stuff from me!

1. Read 6-4-2 for analysis of this deal. Yeah, the comments thread here is better than any on the web but gosh-doggone it, read 6-4-2.

2. I think of this trade and I think of Tom Meagher. How does a man function in life after his head explodes?

3. The best thing that could happen to this team is that Colletti would get get fired and Kim Ng/Logan White would take his place. I take no pleasure in typing these words as I'm sure Colletti is a nice guy right down to his snakeskin boots. But if you were to put together his deals in resume form, that would be one ugly resume. He's gotta go.