From Rotoworld:

No word yet on whether agent Scott Boras was also able to add a clause forcing the Dodgers not to offer Ramirez arbitration. Ramirez would be more valuable as a free agent this winter if the teams pursuing him didn't have to worry about losing a draft pick. The Dodgers might not want to offer arbitration anyway.

Guau!

Are they really going to bench two of those five OF? It doesn't make sense. There has to be another trade coming. The only logical thing I can think of is they trade Pierre in August, since he'd probably clear waivers.

Let's face it: Manny is a HOF player who is still raking. This could end up being the biggest deal in Dodger history. Torre HAS to do the right thing and bench Jones and Pierre.

Ramirez has been dogging it in Boston to a legendary degree lately

Lots of dishonest at-bats.

Jon, I will actually miss watching Manny with the Sox on one hand. He was a great rival, a guy who murders the Yanks. He's a nut, but you'll love watching him hit. Never overdoes it in his approach, a line drive up the middle will do. Amazing breaking ball hitter. But you know this stuff. If anyone can reach Manny, it's Torre.

Posted in the other thread

Ned is a freaking genius. I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier!

Manny plays 7 innings, Juan Pierre pinch runs for him in the late innings, and then Andruw Jones will come in late for defensive purposes. It only took Ned $47 million to fill the LF spot!

Great news for the La Roche family, too.

Andy must be thrilled to be teamed with his brother AND to be out from under Colletti's thumb.

That's a pretty good looking lineup, but I agree with others, it will be too rarely on the card.

This is a move a B-level franchise would make. The Dodgers were not, and are still not, one player away from a World Series title. Colletti sold the future for a playoff run and, most likely, a first- or second-round elimination in October.

Meanwhile, Andy LaRoche becomes the new Paul Konerko. At least he'll get the fair chance with the Pirates that he never got with the Dodgers.

I'll believe a Jones AND Pierre benching when I see it. That's $27 million on the bench.

It's on dodgers.com now. But no details yet.

1 That's pretty key..

- I don't trust Torre to pick the right three outfielders everyday. Ethier and Kemp will miss starts they should get.

- I'm not optimistic that this team can go far in the playoffs,

Hence, I would have preferred not to rent Manny for two months with the give-back of the compensation draft pick, unless they actually sign a great draft pick...

Rosenthal (so take with a shovel of salt) said this morning that the Manny to FLA deal included a deal that Manny would agree to decline arbitration with the Marlins so they'd get draft picks.

I really hope the Dodgers still retain the right to offer arb.

Just in off the wire.

Ned trades Pierre and Jones to the Yankees for a ham sandwich and a roadmap!

Wow! Just got the news. Someone tell 2spin!

8 You know, that's true. I truly had a soft spot for Andy though--saw his first ML start in Atlanta and was so excited. Torre better start the right OF and win this year.

Please, please, please keep Jones and Pierre on the bench.

10 Meanwhile, Andy LaRoche becomes the new Paul Konerko.

Wait, Manny is going to close for the Dodgers? =)

Unreal. My hat's off to Ned. Manny should be very motivated to play well.

I'm watching the WBC press conference. No mention of the trade yet.

The Pirates will hold a news conference at 2:30

1 That would be so appropriate for this team. LaRoche and Morris gone, and not even a draft pick to show for it.

This deal only works if Pierre and Jones sit and like someone already said, I'll believe it when I see it.

17 That's funny.

Why is anyone saying the Dodgers have five starting outfielders?

There are three: Ramirez, Kemp, Ethier.

Pierre should get some starts here and there. Jones should spend a month (at least) in Las Vegas.

-- all told:
LaRoche, Meloan, Santana, Morris
for
two months of Ramirez and Blake

I'll take it.

I just got to school to work on my classroom, and find out Manny is a Dodger.

Oh happy day!
Good jorb Ned Colletti!

1
Not another JD Drew case.

The big question here is... Do the Dodgers deserve Manny Ramirez?

They cant put Manny anywhere but LF.

But unless Andruw agrees to play RF, the Dodgers should at least never have to play Manny/Druw/Pierre all at once.

Beats the LaRoche for Wilson rumors. Crazy Manny coming to LA, Ned I will say I'm impressed.

Boo!

The Dodgers talk about chemistry, and then they go and add a player who plays defense with the ability of a bronze statue, listens to music in the outfield during games, pops off in the media with no provocation, beats up team employees, and was recently accused by his team of throwing games.

Give me Milton Friggin' Bradley back.

And now we need a damn third baseman for next year. (And all the years after that, for that matter.)

Did anyone else see that Ethan Martin is out for the year after needing knee surgery (dodgers.com)? At least it's not his arm.

10 - "Colletti sold the future for a playoff run and, most likely, a first- or second-round elimination in October."

If that's the worst-case scenario, color me happy.
What's the key to winning in the playoffs? Reaching the playoffs.

10 - The Dodgers didn't sell "the future." They sold two parts of the future.

I'm as senstive the future as anyone this side of Canuck, but there should be perspective.

The NL is there for the taking. I would take a World Series berth and a crapshoot (forgive me) against the AL team.

You are right. It all hinges on who is benched.

But, given the choice of who to let go: LaRoche, Ethier or Kemp, I think we at least kept the two I'd prefer.

10 Not completely disagreeing with you, but why are you so sure the Dodgers are not a legit world series contender? They have both starting pitching and a great pen, and now they have a great line-up. (I'm still worried about their defense though.) And, as Jon says, if Furcal actually came back, too, can you imagine? I am not exactly penciling in the world series dates yet but in the NL anything is possible. And this team is no more flawed than most of the other contenders at this point, imho.

If they wouldn't trade Kemp, their not going to bench him.

30 We need a shortstop, maybe they'll put Manny there :)

32 - I agree the Dodgers are hypocrites, but we knew that already.

Just in off the wire.

Ned's ham sandwich is spoiled and the roadmap is nothing more than than crayon marks on a IHOP childrens menu!

38 Now is not the time to be mixing homophones!

I'm all atwitter.

I was about to post the new lineup in the last thread before I saw the NPUT and Jon's version here. LEGIT.

I'm with 11 . I refuse to believe Pierre and Jones will do most of the sitting.

And Pee Wee gets a new roommate.

I just thought of a bright side to all this: the Dodgers are gonna get a lot more coverage on ESPN from now on, since those guys absolutely love Manny.

And now we need a damn third baseman for next year.

I'm sure Casey Blake will be re-signed.

The thing is, I wouldnt have minded signing Manny in the off-season. So getting him 2 months earlier, and only giving up LaRoche/Morris to do it is fine.

The Santana/Meloan for Blake deal was far far worse than this.

This one is probably Ned's 2nd best deal, behind Maddux for Izturis.

Couldn't we have just signed Barry Bonds?

There has to be another trade coming. Pierre and Jones are not going to be sitting on the bench for the rest of the season, and I think that Torre really likes Ethier and Kemp.

By Monday, Manny is going to be a hero in this town.

34 If that's the worst-case scenario, color me happy.

That is, I feel, the best-case scenario.

38 You are in your classroom and you said their not going to bench him?

I hate this deal. Two months of Manny for five years of LaRoche. Manny's D will be horrible in Dodger Stadium. If you factor in defense (thinking WARP here) I bet LaRoche is the better player in 2010, if not 2009.

I don't know what to think. I am excited to have a player like Manny Ramirez joining the Dodgers. But, I will miss Andy LaRoche. Many here on this board know what it's like for the Dodgers to win a WS, heck, many here know what it's like to win a postseason series. Some of us, like myself, do not know what it's like. All my life, the Dodgers have been..well...mediocre to be honest. Last time Dodgers won a WS, I was six months old. I really do hope we can make a legit run at this thing!!!

Let's go Dodgers!

This deal sucks.

How much better are the Dodgers now? Instead of a 80-82 win team they're what? 85 wins or so. Thats still mediocre even if it does get you into the playoffs. I don't like the idea of trading several years of LaRoche so two months of Manny can make us slightly less mediocre and save Neds job. Id rather see the team build towards something good one or two years down the line.

{10}-An awful lot of conjecture there. I dig LaRoche, but not only is it a reach to propose he's "the next Konerko," but we just traded a minor-league third-baseman for a difference-making player. Not for Casey Blake or Julio Lugo, but for a guy who can actually mash. This isn't Kemp, or Loney, or Martin or Kershaw or Billingsley we just gave up. I'd hardly call it "mortgaging the future," especially if we get the picks back. Now whether the Dodgers are indeed "one player away from a title"--I'm inclined to agree and think they aren't. But if Torre plays the right people (a tall if), that certainly gives us an offense to go with our pitching. And should Furcal be back in September that would be something. It'll certainly make the remainder of the season something to watch.

32 We knew that when they signed Bennett.

Can someone explain to me how we "sold our future." I mean, LaRoche couldn't even be the present and was clearly not favored as much as DeWitt. I don't see what future he had here, although I think he is a future allstar.

I can see people not liking the trade, but I hope someone will explain to me why they think we just mortgaged our future.

By Monday, Manny is going to be a hero in this town.

Thats only if he doesnt suck.

If he does, he'll get more boos than Andruw Jones bc unlike Druw (who can still play the OF), Manny's gonna be seen as a clown.

Looking at the lineup Jon posted, Loney better put his hitting shoes on, because Manny's gonna get a lot of IBBs.

54 That's basically how I feel, too.

The real question is: What number will Manny Ramirez wear with the Dodgers? I would bet a lot of money Manny has never heard of Walter Alston, he of the retired #24.

Best case scenario-Manny rakes, Torre sits Jones and Pierre, and Dodgers hit the postseason running.
Worst case scenario-Manny jakes, Torre tries to keep all five outfielders happy, Dodgers don't win the division, and LaRoche turns into a stud 3B.

OK, what are the flights out of Boston, or wherever he is? We have to introduce him to the Snakes asap.

Peter Abraham (guy who broke the Torre thing) is reporting we will get to offer Manny arb, with him declining.

As someone noted yesterday, Ramirez, Kent, and Bowa should make for an interesting locker room. At least it takes the spotlight from the younger players.

LaRoche couldn't even be the present and was clearly not favored as much as DeWitt.

But that was bad managing on the Dodgers part.

LaRoche should have been playing 3rd base all along. But, if you're gonna deal LaRoche & get two months of Manny, it sure beats trading him for a year and a half of a Jack Wilson.

Manny can play rover in a 4-man outfield without a shortstop. That will win some ballgames!

If Furcal comes back for September and we bench Pierre and Jones, we have one solid line-up.

I have to admit, I didn't think Ned was smart enough to pull this off. I'll miss Andy, but come on this is Manny we're talking about. An outfield of Manny, Kemp and Ethier is a pretty good outfield. At least now Pierre can be used as he should be a pinch runner, and Druw can play defense late in the game.

This is Ned trying to save his job. It may well put the Dodgers into the playoffs, meaning we have to endure another season of being almost a great team. Ned's going to waste our opportunity to turn all this young talent into a dynasty.

wow this is insane, just read the news...as others have stated, im pretty impressed colletti held on to ethier and kemp, but that could mean another deal is coming

im pretty excited to get home now and see him out there in dodger blue, im a ferry ride away from beantown so i cant wait to chat wth ome folks in sox country

i just hope that pierre and druw stay on the bench, wishful thinking though

Since this IS our team we're talking about, what's the over/under on Manny blowing a knee trying to make a routine catch? 15 games?

#48 Not a bad point all things considering.

With our rotation, how can you say this deal DOESN'T make us a contender? We're 16-9 in July, Blake has given us the first real offensive threat at 3B that we've had in a while, and, oh, we have one of the greatest home-run hitters of all time joining the lineup, and no one can say that he's in decline like Andruw Jones. Plus, he's hilarious.

ESPN.com is streaming the ESPN radio affiliate in LA. The hosts are loving the trade, and ridiculing the callers who don't like the deal.

So much speculation that Ethier is going. But, I say if he is not and either Pierre or Jones (doubt that) are traded, this is a great move.

I'm kind of interested to see Manny standing at home plate watching his first homer as a Dodger. Hope it happens soon!

WOW. How fast we turned on Blake DeWitt. Aren't we the ones that called him The Solution?

Yes, I preferred LaRoche, but DeWitt is still a first-round talent that needed more time in the minors.

Now he's got it and hopefully he'll be ready for a true full-time job next spring.

Man, am I glad I have tickets for Saturday night! And tonight, too, but especially Saturday.

Jones was going to be sitting anyway. I don't see that changing--heck, with Manny as cover they could even send him down. JP is the "bigger" problem, but it's significant that Ned didn't trade Ethier or Bison. I'm hopeful we get the right OF most nights.

This move improves the Dodgers' lineup greatly right now. Third base can be dealt with in the offseason or possibly filled in the future by DeWitt. This will be the deal that gets the Dodgers to the postseason as Manny is a huge upgrade over Pierre.

55 - Instead of a 80-82 win team they're what? 85 wins or so.

For the Dodgers to win 85 games, they have to go at least 31-24 over the final two months. That's a winning percentage of .564 - over a 162-game season, that's a record of 91-71.
A team with 91 wins can do damage in the postseason, especially in the National League.

"He adds that the Red Sox will pay the $7MM remaining on Manny's contract."

So basically the Dodgers don't have to pay Manny anything?

1st Playoff Game:
Furcal(SS)
Ethier(RF)
Kemp (CF)
Manny (LF)
Loney(1st)
Blake(3rd)
Martin(C)
Kent(2nd)
Billingsley

You telling me that team does not have a shot at going to the world series?

McCourt just announced the Ramirez acquisition, but provided no details.

Man, if someone told me yesterday that Ned would trade for Manny and keep both Ethier and Kemp, I'd have been ecstatic. And the more I think about it, the more excited I am to watch this team. Do you think Manny'll get to LA early enough to play tonight?

Frank McCourt just made the announcement on the WBC conference. He calls Manny Ramirez one of the "world classic baseball players." He didn't mention any other players in the announcement.

0 - I don't watch Ramirez play much

In the recent Angels homestand against the Sawx, I saw the most ridiculous thing ever: not only did Manny blow fielding a routine single, turning it into a game-winning RBI triple, but he rolled over on it, sat like a beached whale with his back on the field, and finally Coco Crisp bailed him out by picking up the ball and getting it back to the infield. I was at the park that day and never saw the highlight reels of that play, but it was the most ridiculous misplay I've ever seen in my life.

http://6-4-2.blogspot.com/2008/07/lackeys-1000th-k-only-cherry-angels-11.html

We'd better win it all this year. We've got holes in at least five positions next year and there's no way we can buy our way out of all of them.

56 , 58 LaRoche is only a "minor-league third baseman" and is not "in the present" because the Dodger brass seriously misallocated the resources they had. He should have been the starting 3B on the team as soon as he healed from his injury in spring training.

60 Cliff, "Crazy Eyes" Loney always has his hitting shoes on! Except when he has his DP shoes on. But I'm sure he'll be fine with it.

Ramirez, Kent, and Bowa should make for an interesting locker room.

And if they do bench Pierre, he'll start whining too. If they don't bench him, I'll be whining.

"Last time Dodgers won a WS, I was six months old"

Dude! We were born during the same month (April 1988).

Jones if he does not break the Mendoza line, just go ahead and eat it, Unconditional Release him.

No matter how good Andruw's arm is, or how good a defense he puts up, if he don't hit, let him be gone.

expect an outfield of Manny-Kemp-Pierre, with Ethier in for Pierre 1/3 of the time

Wow.

85
We have to be smart enough and lucky enough to use that lineup.

All of these adolescents. I wasn't born until after the Kirk Gibson hit. Ha! Beat that!

There is no way the Dodgers are going to trade Kemp.

I think the Dodgers problems can be solved by putting Andruw or Pierre in charge of Manny's ticket requests.

I just don't like Manny. He is a buffoon. We need that big bat, but this deal just shows us how much the Dodgers have absoluately no strategy. We are paying 3 outfielders almost $50M just this year and two of them won't be starting (if we are lucky) and the third, while a great hitter is getting up there in years, plays terrible defense, and isn't exactly great in the clubhouse to put it nicely.

Also, I am upset about losing LaRoche. He hadn't shown his value in the majors yet, but I still think he has the makings of being a 280 ba and 25-30HR third baseman. That is tough to give up.

This is just another example of how the Angels have become the standard of excellence in California MLB

We can debate how good LaRoche will be and what this means for our future, but I do think people aren't paying proper attention to the fact that we just got one of the best freakin' hitters in our lifetimes. And he's not going to "dog it" now that he's got his audition for his new contract. Remember, Andruw Jones tailed off BEFORE we got him. Manny is still a great hitter this year.

Manny Kemp Ethier

Now that we can actually win this thing, let's stop being stupid and bench the other stiffs.

Trade Jones and pickup all of his salary for this year and a third to half of his salary for next year. I was really hoping that Jones would rebound when he came back from the injury, but that looks very unlikely. It's amazing how much the guy has declined, yet he's at an age where he's supposed to be in the prime of his career. Juan Pierre has 3 more years left on his contract after this year meaning that he's pretty much untradeable.

The starting outfield should be
LF Manny
CF Kemp
RF Ethier

With Pierre coming in for Manny as a defensive replacement/pinch hitter.

89 - actually, I shouldn't say that was a game winner, because the Angels were already up by quite a bit.

Gurnick twists the knife on the way out with this nugget:

LaRoche was considered by many to be the best prospect in the organization a year ago, but he's been given several chances to take the starting third-base job for the Dodgers the past two years, and he hasn't hit

"im pretty impressed colletti held on to ethier and kemp"

The deal would have been much better if it had been Ethier for Manny instead of LaRoche.

My emotional reaction notwithstanding, I'm withholding judgment until we find out the two most important things about this trade: 1) Whether the Dodgers are obligated to decline Manny's options, and 2) Whether the Dodgers are obligated to not offer him arbitration.

If both answers are "no," it's a good trade. If both answers are "yes," it's a bad trade.

If 1) is yes and 2) is no, which I suspect will be the case, then it falls somewhere in the middle.

102 where does the $50MM come from?

94 feel ya, i was september of 88

Gurnick calls this "the most spectacular in-season acquisition in the 50-year history of the Los Angeles Dodgers" per dodgers.com.

Whatever, they pulled it off without dumping Kemp, Ethier, or Loney. Certainly makes the deal more palatable, and IMO, makes it worthy of "SOME" props to Flanders.

I still think Arizona is a deeper team overall, but we have a better bullpen. ManRam can give us some sock.

How far fetched is it that Andruw would get to rehab in Vegas for a stretch? He needs at-bats and had a serious surgery. He might agree to it and then we don't have a 25 man roster issue and the outfield isn't so crowded. Pierre can be late inning defensive replacement after pinch running or pinch hitting.

66

I just wish we still had Milton Bradley.

Having Pierre as a pinch hitter would actually be pretty good. He'd be better than Sweeney, in any case.

Considering that DT isn't collectively getting their pitchforks and starting the fire at the stake, I'd say this is as successful a blockbuster deal as Ned could ever hope to pull off.

How soon can Manny play? Tomorrow?

The Dodgers got their cleanup hitter.
Jones was supposed to be the cleanup hitter.
Jones has been replaced.
The cleanup hitter plays left field.
Pierre plays left field.
The left fielder has been replaced.
Pierre proved to be a liability in CF.
Pierre can't play RF.
If feel were replaced with logic,
Kemp would be in CF and Ethier RF.

People don't like the smiley faces, how are they going to handle the nickname ManRam?

Almost drove off the Bay Bridge when my editor called me with the news.

Holy. Smokes.

"Pierre can be late inning defensive replacement"

Pierre is a crappy OF as well you know. The Dodgers need a defensive replacement for the defensive replacement.

111
Somewhere in a quiet corner, Bill Madlock weeps.

102 - This is just another example of how the Angels have become the standard of excellence in California MLB

The "standard of excellence" has a .230-hitting outfielder on the second year of a five-year, $50M deal. I suppose you could say that he's at least being benched once Mike Scioscia realized he was being reliably outhit by Juan Rivera.

From LOHUD, good news contra Boras:

UPDATE, 4:46 p.m.: Here is what it seems to be:

Red Sox get: OF Jason Bay.

Pirates get: RHP Bryan Morris and INF Andy LaRoche from the Dodgers, RHP Craig Hansen and OF Brandon Moss from the Red Sox. Maybe another Dodgers prospect, too.

Dodgers get: Manny Ramirez and $7 million from Boston.

The team options were taken off Manny's deal. He also will agree to decline arbitration so they can get draft picks when he becomes a FA.

I get it that Boston wanted to get rid of Manny. But the Red Sox traded three players (including Manny Ramirez) and $7 million for Jason Bay. That's a hell of a lot for Jason Bay.

BTW, I have two extra tix for tonight in Reserve 27. I am in Palmdale and will be getting to the game early. I can let someone have them for $5 each obo.

116 I was thinking the same thing.

Adding my voice the youngin' argument, I was two when Kirk it out out, but hadn't moved to LA (that was two years later). It would take one Nomo start to shake off the inherited fandom of the Cubbies.

116 It's a hard deal to analyze because so much of it depends on whether Manny decides to actually play baseball, or lollygags his way through the last two months.

Highest potential picks next year:

Manny (Type A) 1st round + comp
Lowe (Type A) 1st round + comp
Furcal (Type B) Comp
Blake (Type A or B) 1st round + comp
Penny (if option declined Type A) 1st round + comp

Are Beimel or Proctor eligible FA's next year? Also could Park be a borderline Type B releiver?

Possible picks: 4 first round and 5 comp picks

122 Somewhere in a quiet corner, Mark Sweeney packs.

You guys all seem pretty confident that Pierre, and not Ethier, will be the one riding the bench with Andruw.

You remember Joe Torre is the Dodgers' manager, right?

121
Pierre has been very good in LF. His speed is a huge asset, and being in LF he hasn't had nearly the amount of opportunities to hurt the club with his arm.

I am one of Ned's big criticizers, but this is a good deal by Ned.

He held firm against San Diego and didn't give up anything even if it meant turning down Maddux. By the way, how stupid is San Diego. Even if you have no leverage, how do you not trade Maddux for even a Denker type prospect. Just dumb.

And I like the Manny deal. I hate givving up on LaRoche, but he's still just a good prospect. He hasn't proved that he is going to be an elite MLer. Not that I don't think he will have a good career, but where we stand right now, we get a great OFer and give up a guy who might only have a 50-50 chance at being a regret. This is obviously better if we get the 2 draft picks when he walks. And I think the OF will be Kemp, Manny and Ethier/Pierre with 1 start a week maybe for Jones. Plus, as a side note, I think this gives someone like Furcal a lot of motivation to be ready for September, not that he should necessarily need it. But darn if it doesn't add a spring to his step.

This trade can be summed up by one legendary call (or 2):

In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened!
OR
I Don't believe, what I just saw! I don't believe what I just saw!

Maybe another Dodgers prospect, too.

109

$18.5M for Jones, $9M for Pierre, and $20M for Manny. I said close to $50M, so I wasn't being exact. Also, I think my figures have some portion of signing bonuses prorated as I just took the contract total divided by an average of the contract length. Anyway you get my point.

110 Same here, September 1988.

Woohoo! Gonna get ticktes to see the ManRam!!

128
Beimel will be a FA, and a Type B at that. Kent is a remote possibility to be a Type B as well.

Assuming we don't trade Ethier (which I think is farily safe to say with Manny gone and Jones in his last year), we are set for 2009 at 2 OF spots, 3 if you count Pierre, 1B, 3B (Blake or Dewitt), C, and one MIF spot going to Hu.

Our pitching is pretty set. Leaves us with holes at one MIF spot and maybe a back-end pitcher. Not bad.

Ramirez's Marcel projection from now through the rest of the season:

.287/.386/.516 11 HR and 12 2B

11 HR seems like a disappointment to me.

So how good was Morris?

121 Yes, Pierre isn't a good outfielder. He can cover more ground than ManRam though. He can't play in right with that sissy arm, so when they play him, he's in left or center with Kemp or Ethier playing right.

Torre loves Pierre. He'll play a bit even if not as a starter everyday.

96 "expect an outfield of Manny-Kemp-Pierre, with Ethier in for Pierre 1/3 of the time "

That's what I think, too.

Your 2009 Dodgers:

RF Kemp
LF Ethier
C Martin
1B Loney
CF Jones
3B DeWitt?
SS Hu?
2B DeJesus?

SP Billingsley
SP Penny
SP Kuroda
SP Kershaw
SP McDonald?

We really, really need to win it all this year.

135 I think the only money the Dodgers will be paying Manny is his per diem and probable suites on the road. Other than that, Boston is paying the tab.

140 It's 2 months. Not half a season.

144
Don't forget Pierre.

140 - It's taken Kemp four months to hit a team-leading 12 HRs.

123

That was a bad deal no doubt for Matthews, but he is on the bench right now as they finally made the right move in putting Rivera in the lineup. Also, Matthews makes a great defensive sub in any outfield spot you put him. In other words, it cost them some money, but it isn't hurting them much right now, except in the pocket book a little. Finally, he isn't whining about it, so it isn't disrupting the clubhouse, like the Dodger clubhouse may become.

139 We're going to have a hole to fill at 3B also. DeWitt proved he's not an option, and signing a 35-year-old Blake to the requisite multi-year deal is one of the worst ideas I can think of.

With the La Roche trade, does Tony Abreu get another opportunity to stick with the Dodgers?

I never thought I'd be happy with the phrase "Colletti involved in a 3-way," but here we are.

Tony Jackson is on FSN Prime.

If Furcal comes back at 100% in September, we're right up there with the Cubs. I just can't believe it.

144 That's only if we don't do anything in the offseason.

141 Morris has a first-round fastball, but his actual performance was extremely inconsistent. He might become anything from a mid-rotation starter to a top-flight closer to a guy who never makes the major leagues. It's too soon to tell.

For once, Ned acts like he gets it. The Dodgers held all of the leverage in this trade. The Pirates needed prospects and the Red Sox needed to get rid of Ramirez. The Dodgers have the prospects to make the deal work. On the other hand, the Dodgers would have been fine (in the long run) even if they had not made the trade.

With this trade, the Dodgers have become legitimate contenders in the National League. However, the most important thing is that the future of the team has not been sold down the river. Everything that we feared the most(losing Kemp, Ethier, Kershaw, or Loney) was avoided. Yes, we might miss LaRoche, but this is the kind of deal that makes sense for the Dodgers (finally).

Maybe Pierre can become what Roberts was for the '04 Sox. Maybe that thinking is a little too wishful?

We'll deal with 2009 later. We have the team that can win in 2008. I'm all in for this season. I'm still can't process it all yet.

I just tune into 570AM to hear what they have to say about the Ramirez deal, and those buffoons are talking about the Lakers. All Lakers, all the time, those idiots.

I'd rather him become what Roberts was for the '04 Dodgers: Tradebait.

That is really distorting the facts to make your point. The Dodgers are not paying Manny anything, so you shouldn't include his salary in your criticisms.

This is just another example of how the Angels have become the standard of excellence in California MLB

That is wrong. The Angels just traded a young corner IF and a pitching prospect for a 2 month rental. That is not different form what the Dodgers did. You can say that teh Angels are the standard of excellence, but this is not an example of that in any shape.

I'm okay with this trade. Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones are two of the most expensive bench players ever, and Andy LaRoche gets sent to Pitt. But the worst case is that LaRoche toils in the back alleys of Pittsburg. He's not going to be Paul Konerk, he's not going to be playing on a playoff team, and go to the world series, and just tear up the league for a year.

Forgive if this has already been brought up.

Show of hands. If the Angels DON'T acquire Teixeira, does Colletti sill make this deal?

Props to Ken, by the way, for the Toaster not crashing with this news, as many sites would have.

I still something else has got to be coming down, or will be in the next few days. The Dodgers are not going to bench Pierre and/or Jones and/or Ethier. (I assuming Kemp is a definite starter, as Joe hasn't benched him once this season for Pierre or Jones.) Either Jones is about to go back on the DL, or they are going to deal Pierre in August, as he'll easily pass through waivers with that contract. I actually am of the belief that Jones is about to go to the DL, as the Manny acquisition basically means that the team has given up on Jones returning to form this year. Manny basically becomes the power threat the Dodgers thought they were getting in Jones.

157 I posted something similar on the last thread. I agree completely.

First things first:

Your Dodger roster on DT Picnic Day:

Billingsley
Lowe
Kershaw
Kuroda
Penny
Park
Falkenborg
Troncoso
Wade
Beimel
Kuo
Broxton

Martin
Ardoin

Loney
Kent
Blake
Berroa
Hu
Ozuna

Kemp
Ethier
Ramirez
Jones
Pierre

If we only got him for 2 months, McCourt needs a jet leaving Boston now to get him in LA for tonight's game. At least as a pinch hitter late in the game.

160 The Loose Cannons are the Pierre of talk radio: one-dimensional.

The Dodgers will not offer Kent arbitration. Too much of a risk that he will accept it. The least he could make is around 7.5 million.

164
I think the Dodgers are more concerned with the team in red from Arizona than Anaheim.

[157/67]

Yes, and hey- this means we can get some wins THIS year, its time. Great deal by Ned.

Eric, no chance DeWitt improves enough between now and April to be a #7 hitter on the team in 2009? Maybe platoon him and Nomar :)

151 Who's Tony Abreu? :-/

For those who said that Colletti wasn't smart enough to trade Lowe, what about now?

164 - totally agreed this was a consequence of the Angels acquiring Teix.

168
Sweeney DFA?

If Pierre plays right, every opponent will run the bases like the Angels.

164 Based on that one guy's post about his friend who works with the Dodgers who saw McCourt rampaging around after the Texiera trade, it's a strong possibility that Manny doesn't happen without Texiera.

The difference between Manny and Pierre is somewhere between 6-10 runs over the course of two months. Was it worth crippling 2009 for those 6-10 runs? I guess we'll see if we take the division by a game.

it is incredible to me that in one fell swoop, unless Torre totally screws it up which is a possibility, that we might be a force to be reckoned with, especially given our strong pitching....

Lowe has been the biggest in house critic of Dodgers not going out to get the big name. If he doesn't shut down the Dbacks tonight, he never has room to say anything ever again.

162 - just so. I am coming around to Christina Kahrl's view of this trade; the Angels gave up two years worth of control of a useful but still-not-quite-something first baseman for a two-month rental. Still, they finally got Vlad some protection, and insurance in case the offense goes to sleep again.

171 30 Day termination pay for Kent!

168 Apparently, Manny Ramirez is the only player good enough to finally displace Mark Sweeney on the roster.

152 Nice. I almost lost my diet coke.

Everything that we feared the most(losing Kemp, Ethier, Kershaw, or Loney) was avoided.

I think losing LaRoche was a bigger fear than losing Loney or Ethier.

180 - was that here? I haven't been hanging out that much.

When is the DT picnic?

181 crippling? how? I, for one, have never seen LaRoche in the same light as most of you....

we have a legitimate chance to win the NL now...that's how I see things now....

176--Is Lowe being dealt?

we forget, Barry Bonds in the middle of a lousy Giants lineup made them a tough team offensively...just one guy....

164 Formerly R
No way that had anything to do with it. But, I know that several here will think so.

192 - Lowe was just dealt an ace if Manny could make tonight's game.

There is a big difference between a team with an 11 game lead in a division without a real contender coming after them and the Dodgers a game back from a team just as deep if not deeper.

The Angels trade was for October glory. The Dodgers will have to play very well to get to October. The D-Backs are playing like they should be lately.

The similiarity is that both the LA teams get draft picks if they don't sign the big bat from the trade.

Peter Gammons is still pissed off at Manny Ramirez.

188 i know you've never been a loney fan, but you'd rather see loney go as apposed to laroche?

Can you be crushed and delighted at the same time? Filled with a bit of a broken heart and a whole bunch of excitement? If so, I am there.

I am sad that we never got a full chance to see the Andy LaRoche era develop, but if we were destined to toss Andy away (and I think the front office decided we were) I am glad it was for someone who flat out rakes.

Jon you are right, this team, assuming Ethier does not lose at bats to Pierre, is a World Series contender. I don't think we could have said that with a straight face before... Heck, I can't remember the last time I thought the Dodgers could really win the WS, not the "anything is possible / shades of '88" kind of thoughts that we all get every now and then while taking a shower, but honest to goodness, this team as assembled can win it all kind of thoughts.

For a kid like me, who grew up in the 70's, the idea that the Dodgers would be as mediocre as they have been, for this long, is impossible. It is downright scary. Might as well have told me that milk makes you weak, carrots hurt your eyes, and that Communism is good for all man.

Heck, I am so torn between disappointment and delight that I will post my Andy LaRoche story that I have nearly posted 100 times this year but have always held off for some reason.

I had the pleasure of attending the Dodger Adult Baseball Camp in January and one of the great things it afforded me was one on one access with a number of the Dodger minor league managers and instructors. These guys are great to hang out with and love to talk anything and everything baseball. Late one afternoon, I was soaking in a tub of ice sucking down my 2nd or 3rd postgame beer when one prominent minor league instructors (who shall otherwise remain nameless) crawls into the whirlpool next to me and pops open a cold one for himself and starts complimenting me on my last at bat against the team he was coaching. GREAT STUFF, YOU CANT IMAGINE, sorry I digress. Anyway we started talking about this and that and the conversation turned to third base for the Dodgers 2008. This the spot I was waiting for and I jump in hard, talking him up and down how the future is now and the now is Andy LaRoche. He told me that he thought that Andy was going to get his chance this spring, but there were many in the organization, including himself, who didn't think that Andy's body would hold up enough to reach his potential as a player. Fast forward to spring training and Andy gets hurt on that %$#@%ing freak play. I knew in my gut that Andy would likely never get the shot he deserved again...

For the record, back in January this ML Coach was most worried about 3rd base on the 2008 team. He didn't buy that Nomar could play a whole season either and he didn't think that there was anyone else ready in the org to play 3rd base for the big club (sorry Blake DeWitt – and he really spoke like that "big club" ha!). He raved to me about how good Chad Billingsley was going to be this year and how Kershaw was a great kid, who did everything right, and just happened to be the best pitching prospect he has ever seen. He also loved the core of Loney, Kemp, Ethier, and especially Martin, he hoped the front office would keep this nucleus together and that they would each be Dodgers for a long time.

It was pretty apparent that the Org was hell bent on anyone but LaRoche at 3rd. If we had to give him up for 2 months of a player, while I know there will be a few tears on this board about it, I am glad we did it for one of the best pure hitters I have ever seen and a player that could make this year's team great.

I am off to the Stadium in a few hours to settle in for a great one tonight. Go Dodgers!

HJ

144
Come on, that is based on where we stand today. With all the money coming off the books you don't think we aren't going to make moves?

All you guys adding up the draft picks should take a breather. Once we sign someone else's free agents we will be giving back our own picks.

Eric why is DeWitt not a solution going forward? A 22 year old AA player failed to adjust in the major leagues after having success and now he has no chance for a good career. Come on, he showed plenty for his age and experience.

197 - Hell hath no fury like Gammo scorned.

188 Losing a guy who played at most 20 games with the Dodgers this year over every day players who actually produce or team leaders in .BA/RBIs/Hits/slugging/OBP, etc.?

191 We now have to play another player to come here and we already didn't have the budget to fill the holes we have. We're now very weak at second, short, third, outfield, and at least one starting pitcher, and we don't have enough good prospects to replace all of them, nor is the useful part of the lineup enough to cover for it.

Unless McCourt is willing to go to a 150 million dollar payroll, we're in serious trouble next year.

181--> Most people wont look at it like that though.

Manny's worst month this year was May:

.228/.328/.386 in 101 ABS.

Every other month he's OPS'ed over .900.

The only way this deal is seen as hurting the Dodgers will be if Manny stinks in these 2 months.

Dealing LaRoche for 2 months of free Manny/+2 draft picks really isnt too shabby.

192 JoeyP
No. A few here said that he should be dealt.

200 Of course we are, but we're going to have to make a lot of moves to fill those gaps.

202--Yes, when you look at future value.

Loney/Ethier's upsides were much lower than LaRoche's.

Plus, if you look at positional need, its much easier to find a 1st basemen or corner OF'er to put up the numbers that those guys do.

LaRoche has a ton of upside, which is why the Pirates wanted him.

190 Its on Saturday August 16th.

Here's the post.

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/1046809.html

181 Losing LaRoche cripples the team for 2009?

I didn't know the team's fortunes depended on one player so heavily.

207 true, but i think this move shows we're trying to win this year, and we would not be able to replace a guy like loney this year

200 I agree with you completely. In the next couple of years, Pierre, Jones, Manny, Kent, Nomar, Furcal, Lowe, maybe Penny....that is a lot of payroll off the books

they will go sign someone or two free agents to supplement the team...hopefully the new GM will be smarter than Ned...

Manny has two rings.

In two boxes.

Jones will either be waived or traded after he clears waivers with the Dodgers picking up most of his salary.

Kemp and Manny will play every day. Ethier will split time with Pierre. Its not too bad really.

If Furcal comes back healthy sometime in Sept, our offense is really going to rake and we will truly have a great chance of winning the world series.

200 "Eric why is DeWitt not a solution going forward? A 22 year old AA player failed to adjust in the major leagues after having success and now he has no chance for a good career."

I didn't say anything about his chance for a good career. I said he has no chance of being an asset as a starting third baseman in 2009. Big difference there.

Starting third baseman in 2010? Maybe, we'll see. Starting second baseman in 2009? Perhaps. Starting third baseman in 2009? Not in a million years. He simply has never shown, at any level, the ability to hit like a third baseman needs to hit. Maybe he'll improve. But he's not a serious candidate to be next year's third baseman, not if the team wants to win.

Is there a place for Manny to pee in left field during pitching changes?

Well, this trade sure splits those who see the glass as half full from those who see it as half empty.

207 Well, if positional relief is the issue...

Manny provides more positional relief than Teixeira would have. Manny >>>> Pierre ... Manny >>>>>>>>>>> Druw ... Teixeira > (maybe) Loney

212 - Heather has two mommies.

144 - How about Furcal on a one-year deal playing up the middle alongside Hu.

I'm putting Loney up top to curry favor.

1B Loney
SS Furcal/DeJesus
OF Kemp
C Martin
OF Ethier
OF Jones/Pierre
3B DeWitt
2B Hu

With our pitching, will that team not be as good as this year's pre-July 30 team?

203 But its not as if those positions are producing a lot right now.

208 I'm going to that game bh! A rare night out with the wife. Where are you guys sitting?

re: 181

Hard for me to accept that the difference between Pierre and Manny is one run per 10 games.

Is that measurement seen as strong in the saber-world?

I can't remember the arbitration rules. If he declines, we can't re-sign him until June, is this correct?

So, we can't re-sign him?

219 probably better, the young guys will have another year of experience

Upside is an overrated term.

LaRoche wasn't going to be as good as Bay or Manny are in their prime years. LaRoche might be solid, but he wasn't an all-star type of guy. His upside is the same upside as Loney or Andre Ethier(I admit I like Loney and Ethier as players more than LaRoche). Solid players with the potentional to make a couple of all-star teams. We are not talking about a franchise defining guy with LaRoche here. Sometimes I think we get into the mindset over at Dodger Thoughts that all the young guys are Scared Cows when in reality that only Kemp is, and he's actually a Bison. :)

But seriously? LaRoche has more 'upside' than Andre Ethier and Loney? Sure, but Ethier and Loney are going to be out producing him.

223 No, they changed that rule after the last CBA, now you can sign them if they refuse arbitration with no time delay.

226 Cool.

That always seemed like a dumb rule.

213 I can't imagine anyone taking Andruw at any price unless we DFA him.

Wait... Colletti might. If you throw in Loaiza for 6.5 mil.

219 Do we really want this years team next year though? In two months we're looking at the exact same questions we were before, just with one more hole.

I think we're just going to have to evaluate this trade in hindsight. If Manny carries us to the playoffs, it was a good move, if not, it's horrible.

181 No offense, but according to your calculations it never seems like anyone is ever better than anyone else by more than a slight margin.

LaRoche wasn't going to be as good as Bay or Manny are in their prime years.

Definitely not as good as Manny. Bay is not out of the question.

His upside is the same upside as Loney or Andre Ethier

His upside is higher than both of those players.

225 the Dodgers have had a lot of guys with great upside potential for the past 20 years, and we can all see where that has gotten us....

Ned for President!

You've got to give up something, and LaRoche turns 25 in September. This is a great deal.

Ned should be gone already, but does the positive PR from the Manny trade save him? If so, this could be a long-term disaster. With the right GM the Dodgers could be set for a solid run of contention. Who has a better young (low cost) foundation of talent?

207

James Loney is 8 months younger than LaRoche and is +48 over LaRoche in career OPS+ in MLB.

So, of course, he has less potential.

225 I think the only issue with the Andy LaRoche Experience (the player not the 1970's country rock group) was that he was never given an opportunity to play everyday and see if his minor league work projected into the player that we thought he could be.

Andruw Jones has taken a new job as official taster in the Stadium Club restaurant; Juan Pierre goes to work for a pasta company to model his noodle-like arm...

230 Over two months, that's pretty true, especially when the guy is the worst fielder in baseball.

225 I agree that upside is often an overrated term. The problem has been that Ned has been interested in trading high-upside prospects for mediocre rentals. This trade is markedly different in that the Dodgers have two solid 3B prospects in LaRoche and Dewitt, with LaRoche having more upside. The Dodgers kept one and traded the other for difference making bat.

Dang! Sweeney is now hitting .106. The infamous Sweeney Line as opposed to the Mendoza line may never be adopted when he is released.

232 I think the Randy Johnson for Brad Penny deal in 04 fell through when the D-Backs asked for Edwin Jackson too.

Would the '04 playoffs have gone better with a healthy Unit?

I think Johnson was against the trade also and wouldn't come happily, but there was an element to the story that DePo backed off when Arizona wanted Edwin.

213 - Where exactly is JP going to play? Certainly not in LF on a regular basis. They picked up a guy at $36 million for CF because JP was not adequate their defensively and had no sock, and now they have learned that the Bison does a good job there. He certainly can't play RF. I see JP as basically late inning defensive replacement for Manny, now that Kemp has shown that he can lead off.

227 Without that rule, Jose Lima probably would have been a Dodger in 2005.

144 they have some money to spend i'm assuming

LaRoche's power was presumably sapped by his injuries. It remains to be seen whether it returns (a la Drew and Werth).

225 Scared cows. I like that. Some of our players do sometimes play like scared cows.

LaRoche has more 'upside' than Andre Ethier and Loney? Sure, but Ethier and Loney are going to be out producing him

But since neither can play 3rd base, that means LaRoche (even if he produced less--> which I still think he'll produce more), makes him more valuable.

The Dodgers are going to be stuck paying Casey Blake 8-9 mils next year to play 3b, with big holes at 2b, and SS too.

That aint good.

Hopefully these last two months make it worth it.

I would be a bigger fan of this deal if the two option years were not dropped. Manny for 2 more years would be perfect but now that won't happen.

Blake might endear himself to LA for another year or two. Dewitt can play second base. Kent is gone after this year for sure.

Does Torre make Manny cut his hair?

243 Thank Choi that Jose Lima wasn't around to ruin 2005.

I kid!

Lost in all the trade talk was the Nationals trading old friend Johnny Nunez for Yankee utility infielder Gonzalez. He has now been traded twice before reaching AA.

We've brought in a a few players who were supposed to take us to the promised land in the last 20 years and it hasn't happened. Why is Manny with all his baggage different?

Would the '04 playoffs have gone better with a healthy Unit?

Probably.

But 05-07 would have sucked without Brad Penny.

This question may have already been posed - if so, my regrets (I've been under a rock making tv and just learned of the trade)...
Is Manny a gamer?

253 He smokes more weed than Strawberry, but far less crack.

253 Manny's way better than all of them.

171 Kent has stated that he doesn't think he'll be back with the Dodgers because they're "going places" but he needs to "be somewhere". Sounds like a safe arbitration bet to me.

229 - Obviously we'd like to be better. But it's still a young team, which likely means continued improvement. It's certainly a decent starting point.

I'm more or less responding to your comment that we'd better win this year or else. (I'm paraphrasing - accurately, I hope.) It's not like we become the Giants next year. Given that we will probably do more this offseason than signing a shortstop to a one-year contract, I don't feel like the roof is caving in.

We could definitely use LaRoche next year. But he does not make a difference between hope and hopelessness.

251
I don't think there would have been much opposition to Mrs. Lima.

So no Greg Maddux on our team this year?

What could Boras possibly be looking for in Manny's next contract? 5 years 80 mil?

I will miss Andy bigtime (and so will Pee Wee), but I can't imagine that he will miss the Dodgers. As TC noted earlier it will be easier to miss him in return for 2 months of Manny than for J. Wilson or H. Street.

LaRoche has never regained the power he once had before Labrum surgery. He does display patience behind the plate but he may never regain the power he once had.

262 Reports are he wants 4/100.

261 Pads are expected to waiver him; we could still pick him up.

Maddux could still be had in a waiver deal.

I don't watch Ramirez play much, and I know of his liabilities, and it might not help the Dodgers as much as the front office thinks it will, but if you're going to make a move for a rental, this is a kind of guy to reach for.

I like that quote from Jon. I love the trade but still, what's gonna happen next year with our 3rd base situation not to mention our SS situation?? I love that we will get compensated for him [Manny Ramirez] that's pretty cool but still you gotta wonder about '09

I will say this, '08 looks way better now! :o)

Imagine the D-Backs when they heard the news, I know I'd be like, uh-oh...

189 I saw it somewhere in the 700+ comments in the last thread. I think it was towards the end though.

Thinking out loud: if the diff btw Pierre and Manny was 1 run/10 games, .1 runs/game, then a NL lineup featuring 8 Mannys would outscore the all-Pierre team by a mere 0.8 runs/game.

Given that last year, the diff btw worst and best NL offense was 1.36 runs game (5.51-4.15).....surely the Manny/Pierre gap should exceed 1.36......

262--In the post roids era, I cant believe anyone would give Manny that deal in his 36-41 yrs.

I agree with you that is sort of sucks that the club options are dropped.

Maybe the Dodgers offer arbiration and Manny takes it if the market isnt what he thought it would be. That wouldnt be all bad, especially for a 1yr deal.

265
What he wants and what he will get are two different things.

Manny in his prime couldn't get a good Cleveland team over the top. It could happen here, but there's no guarantee. I think Kemp has as good a chance of getting hot and carrying the team, as Manny. Assuming Torre continues to play him.

259
I have to agree with Jon, your comment made it seem like we'd be scraping the bottom of barrel if we didn't win and then you posted a lineup that really didn't bother me a bit.

2nd base will probably be Ellis and SS will either be Furcal/Hu/DeJesus and I'm fine with DeWitt for next year.

268

I agree with that quote and like the deal, but I'm more worried that our SS position is still a black hole.

Defensive ranks

Blake 30th, Kent 30th, Manny 31st right?

Good thing Bills could post a 100 ERA+ with just him and Russ out there.

I honestly expect the Manny trade to pay big for us. He seems to think that he has a chance at making more than $20 million next year but has a lot of damage control to work through with his tarnished image in Boston. Nothing motivates a player more than money and I expect us to see Manny at his best during his time with us.

262 Jones, Pierre, Schmidt contracts probably prevent a Manny signing.

243 Without that rule, Jody Reed remains a Dodger, and Pedro never gets traded for DeShields.

I hate that rule. Glad it's gone.

144 But with that lineup we would have a lot of money to play with, wouldn't we? That team would have a salary of 90 million or so, very roughly guessing.

We're going to be dumping a lot of payroll in 2009. How come no one has thought about us re-signing Manny?

Very few teams out there could afford him. One of them (Sox)won't sign him and another (LAA) has a full outfield already.

That doesn't leave too many options for Boras and ManRam. If Ned or his successor play their cards right, they might be able to keep him without mortgaging the whole franchise. Or is it a foregone conclusion that he'll wind up in NY?

Strange thing is I remember some somehere here writing that Kemp remineded them of Manny.

So now we have a Young Bison & Old Bison.

269 I just really hate the idea of punting a position. Next year already seemed like it was going to be very reliant on Kemp or Loney suddenly developing power, and now it's just more so.

270 Defense counts too.

264 NWdodger
he may never regain the power he once had.
Good point.

I do like getting to experience Manny being Manny up close and personal, and I'm sad to see LaRoche go. I'm on the "in favor of" side of this deal.

However, I received an email from a cousin with this line: "For once we got a player for next to nothing". That chapped my hide, so I had to explain to him that LaRoche wasn't "next to nothing."

274
I can't imagine Ned signing Ellis. He values batting average too much. Yes, I know he picked up Andruw, but Ned assumed that was a fluke. He for sure regrets signing him now.

144 or closer to 50 million!

This is Joe Torre's biggest test with the outfield situation.

3 veterans with high priced contracts where only one is worthy of playing and two min salary guys that should be playing..

I just can't see all of this ending well, there are just too many combustible variables. And I don't trust Colletti to rebuild in the offseason when we have to fill like 4-5 holes.

264 "LaRoche has never regained the power he once had before Labrum surgery. He does display patience behind the plate but he may never regain the power he once had."

False. He had what was perhaps the biggest power spurt of his career last July and August after the surgery.

Hopefully, they won't put Manny's locker right next to Kemp's.

162

Yes, I shouldn't have included Ramirez salary in my example, but my point remains the same is that we are a team with no strategy and a front office in disarray. Yeah, injuries have something to do with it, but overall our long term strategy is helter skelter at best.

On the Angel example, I didn't say because of the Texeira deal that the Angels are the class of California baseball. However, at this point in their careers I believe Texeira is the better player (offensively close, but defensively and attitude wise it is no contest).

The Angel trade demonstrated how well they keep a strategy in tact. They were patient with Kotchman when he started terribly for them his first few years and didn't dump him last year for Texeira when it would have cost them at least Saunders as well. Texeira may be a two month rental, but there is a chance, albeit fairly small, they will resign him as he is in the peak of his career. The Dodgers won't resign Ramirez as age will really start to take a toll on him soon.

Defense in LF should be the least of the Dodgers concerns.

If Nomar does come back, the Dodgers could have the worst left side of defense in the major leagues, and it wont matter a bit ;) if Manny pounds the ball and the pitchers dont give up homers.

261 There's still the wavier deadline, where teams will put various players on waivers (this is somehow different from a player DFA'ed). Where all 30 teams can put a claim on him. If said players clear, then that team can offer up the player to trade to any team in the league. If another team claims the player(in this case Maddux), then the Padres can only talk trade to that team who claimed the wavier, or pull the wavier back, and nothing happens. Teams would usually try to claim multiple players that they may not want on their teams, but just to block him moving to a rival team.

I think the rule was that teams with the worst records get first pick, but seeing that Maddux publicly stated he just wants to play for the Dodgers, I doubt the D'Backs would try to claim Maddux. Besides Maddux in Chase Field would be comical.

"Even before landing the enigmatic Ramirez, Los Angeles had a crowded outfield. Torre has been juggling Matt Kemp, Andre Ethier, Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre.

You wish you had the DH," Torre said. "We didn't plan in advance how to move things around."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3513383

281 willhite
How come no one has thought about us re-signing Manny?
After 2 months of Manny we might be tired of him too. But, because of free agency I think that he'll be on his best behavior.

It is very possible that neither Colletti nor Boras will have any say in Ramirez's future with the Dodgers beyond this season.

As is everything in Manny's world, the agent situation is ever volatile. And Colletti has either saved his job or lost it with this deal.

285
Most Dodger fans will think it was next to nothing. I really want to hear what Jeff Kent is thinking. Now what he has to say but what he is thinking.

DT could be even more fun at game time.

Post1 - What an idiot, how can he not catch
that ball.
Post21 - Man, he smacked the crap out of that ball, has anyone ever hit the Pavillion lights before?
Post 311 - Does Manny ever run to 1st base when he doesn't hit a home run
Post 395 - Dodgers win 9-4

Manny- Type A
Lowe- Type A
Blake- Type A

Kent- Type B
Beimel- Type B
Park- Type B (i think)

Furcal is a wildcard, he's probably not a type A anymore.

Over/Under on the days 'till the first Ramirez/Kent fisticuffs?

The only thought that gives me any consolation in all this is that perhaps -- PERHAPS -- the Dodgers have concerns about long-term health issues with LaRoche and Morris. Of course, that will only prove to be a legitimate excuse for trading them away if the physical problems do translate into career-threatening injuries down the road, as there were "concerns" about Pedro Martinez's body too, when the Dodgers traded him away. It has to be admitted that LaRoche has been injury prone the last couple of years, and he has degenerative disk disease in his back. Morris came back from missing a year due to Tommy John surgery and promptly started missing time this year with shoulder soreness. We traded away Chuck Tiffany just before his shoulder blew up and needed surgery, and now he is probably a long shot to reach the majors. If the Dodgers have CORRECTLY guessed that LaRoche and Morris are going to go the route of Tiffany, or Greg Miller, then it is not much of a loss, and in fact, we got something for nothing. But if we have guessed incorrectly, and the Dodgers sometimes seem to be incompetent in medical matters, then...bad, bad trade.

273 - There are no guarantees. We could have acquired the AL All-Star team for Sweeney and still there'd be no guarantees.

Did the Dodgers improve enough to justify the cost? Given the reality that LaRoche wasn't playing here, I think they did. I don't know if I'm right.

I do feel it would have been cooler if the Dodgers had traded Meloan and Santana for Ramirez.

After 2 months of Manny we might be tired of him too. But, because of free agency I think that he'll be on his best behavior.

I wish we didn't drop his option years but 2yrs 40 mil is perfect and I would definitely have picked those up.

There were over 300 comments in about 90 minutes?

285 I too have become Excited/Sad/In Favor, and got an IM about half an hour into all of this, and had to play the "con" role to a friend who knew nothing of Andy. Then linked them to here and let Jon opine for me, which wonderfully tends to work accurately more often than not.

If Pierre is in the lineup, putting Kemp in front of Manny all but guarantees some fastballs for the Bison

301 - Re: LaRoche's health, I've had that thought too.

Number of 140 OPS+ Seasons*
Aaron - 18 (consecutive!!!)
Speaker - 16
F.Robinson - 15
Mays - 15
Musial - 15
Bonds - 14
Mantle - 14
Williams - 13
Ott - 13
Ruth - 13
Manny - 12
Schmidt - 12
Gehrig - 12
Cobb - 12

*minimum 502 PA

Manny's 12 years were consecutive (1995-2006), and he currently has a 140 OPS+ in 425 PA this season.

Deal is almost certainly a mistake. Boston made out huge in this deal. Pirates, given their finances, made out well too. Dodgers improved there 2008 team and have severely hurt their longer term health, unless they can dump both Pierre and Jones and re-sign Manny.

304 - It's a whiz-bang day.

294 "I think the rule was that teams with the worst records get first pick, but seeing that Maddux publicly stated he just wants to play for the Dodgers, I doubt the D'Backs would try to claim Maddux."

That's exactly why they would claim Maddux -- to keep the Dodgers from getting him. Unless, of course, they think a Maddux acquisition would actually hurt the Dodgers, which it might, but that would be the only scenario in which they'd let it go through. Also, by claiming him they'd run the risk of the Padres saying "OK, you can have him," and then AZ would be on the hook for his remaining salary.

But like you said, it's something that can only happen if Arizona is behind LA in the standings.

The Lakers have Kobe.
The Clippers got Baron.
The Angels have Vlad and just got Tex.
The Dodgers just got Manny.
The Galaxy got Beckham.
Even the Sparks got their own star, Candace Parker.

Chivas U.S.A., we're all looking at you! :p

The 2009 Dodgers after spending some money:

1B Loney
2B Ellis
C Martin
RF Kemp
LF Ethier
3B Branyan (there's nothing out there in terms of third basemen)
CF Jones
SS Hu

SP Sabathia
SP Billingsley
SP Penny
SP Kuroda
SP Kershaw

Is this a competitive team?

Our lineup is really righty dominated with only Ethier and Loney as lefty bats....(Pierre doesn't count).

300

Kent isn't the hothead he used to be. Have you heard his comments this year, especially regarding the younger players?

Kent knows this is his last hurrah. Manny just needs to be Manny and we have a GREAT shot at the NL West.

Once there, I'll take Bills, Lowe, Kuroda and our pen against anyone.

Any word on Saito?

289
But then he hurt his back and the power has been down since then. In 3 years he had surgery on both shoulders, a bad back that required a DL stint, and an accident resulting in a broken finger.
When healthy he should make Pittsburgh proud and I'll miss him, but dang I'm glad we got Manny.

282 I made those comparisons and then got schooled with minor league numbers.

I love this trade, always been a big Manny fan. Hate to lose LaRoche, I was hoping to see him play on Friday, guess not.

For the sake of peace in the clubhouse I hope that they put Manny in Torre's office.

I'm just all over the place today--I've always liked Manny, but I have a real soft spot for LaRoche. I'm annoyed at Ned knowing full well that this was about his current and next job (and getting praise from Plaschke and his ilk) rather than the good of the Dodgers, but then I'm happy we still have Bison/Loney/Ethier. I don't know what to do except wait to see how it shakes out. I do think, FWIW, that getting Manny gives Ned cover to waiver Jones soon, and I'm not pessimistic about 2009.

304

Bob, we should really upgrade from a two-slice toaster to a four-slice toaster that will also accommodate bagels.

Beimel has an outside chance of being a Type A and Blake a chance to be a Type B. Furcal will definitely be a Type B IMO.

This is the most entertaining thread I have ever read.

For those concerned about payroll and how much we stand to suck after this year:

We have at least $45 million coming off the payroll with another $45 million next year. After 2009 our only commitments are to Kuroda and Pierre and the kids...all of $48 million or so. At today's payroll, that still leaves something like $63 million to "plug holes".

I am as guilty as anyone for looking forward too much since I enjoy the silly signing season almost as much as the games, but this looks like it could be one hell of a ride over the next three months (yes I am including October).

Let's kick the crap out of the Diamondbacks for the next four days and just see how far we can ride the ManRam train. If the train derails, then Ned is out of a job, and we all get a silver lining.

Sorry if this was mentioned before, but with a big offense upgrade (and a bit more defensive worry), isn't offense from SS less of a worry now? If Nomar comes back soon, then great, because he can hit fairly well, too. Otherwise, why not call up Hu, who is a slick fielder and can shore up the defense a bit, and if he can hit this time all the better?

Oh yes, and DFA Sweeney.

And can you imagine if the Dodgers by some miracle faced the Red Sox in the series this year?

299
Blake will straddle the line between A & B. I'd guess B but I hope I'm wrong.

I'm on record as guaranteeing Furcal will be at least a Type B this offseason. If he's not, I'll think of some other Dodger shirt to buy.

I doubt Park will fetch any compensation.

302 I guess I just still can't get Eric Davis out of my mind. That was the last big acquisition I got excited about.

312

I believe the Kings are on the clock.

1. Since Pierre can only play LF, Manny relegates him to the bench. I love that, only because that means Kemp will leadoff more.

2. A lot more pressure on Torre. I'd take this team's talent, top to bottom, over any NL team this year.

3. Over two months, no level of performance is guaranteed. The Dodgers will still need some good luck, but the potential payoff is much higher.

313 I now think that Jones will be gone. I do not think Torre will give up on DeWitt at third. But I agree with the rest.

313 - I think a team ERA of 3.00 would be a nice thing to have.

The funny thing about all this is that in the end, you still kind of need to get lucky in middle relief - and, as I've chronicled in the past, you can't plan for that.

313
With that pitching staff how could it not be. I can find someone better then Branyan without working to hard. His name is Blake

Can we all agree that trading LaRoche for Mannny is better than trading him for Street like we all feared?

326
Oh yeah, they are definite favorites for first pick.

331 Agreed

325
Can't always live in fear that the past is the same as the present.

325 - I recall registering little excitment over the Kirk Gibson signing. But maybe I was ignorant.

322
Without any moves, plus factoring in arbitration raises, etc, the club is at about $95m for 2008 and $70m for 2009.

I can't believe we'll hold all 5 outfielders. Just can't take up the roster spots and can't imagine 2 of those guys sitting that much. Bad allocation of roster spots. Kemp and Ethier can't clear waivers so they're staying. So it seems like we'd HAVE to either literally DFA Jones or trade Pierre for nothing and eat maybe half his salary. Releasing Jones would be the biggest signing debacle of all time but I think that's what I would do.

323 - "And can you imagine if the Dodgers by some miracle faced the Red Sox in the series this year?"

A fissure in the earth would swallow Bristol, Conn. whole.

334 Yes I can. May not be a good strategy, but I can do it!

Another sweet part of a deal like this, the Dodgers will be on national tv more. I'll actually get to watch the Dodgers instead of being a slave to DT's game threads and CBSportline.

335. I have a copy of a telegram I sent to Fred Claire in the '87 offseason that reads "please sign Kirk Gibson. Make the team exciting again". It's my favorite pieces of baseball memorabilia.

with all that this season has brought us so far, now I could definitely see a Dodger-Angel World Series....I really could....

319 Ken Noe
I'm annoyed at Ned knowing full well that this was about his current and next job (and getting praise from Plaschke and his ilk) rather than the good of the Dodgers,...
Knowing full well???

But Gibson is the example of what I want. I want to be surprised by someone doing better than you expect. If we don't get to the series, Manny is a disappointment. Expectations are really high now.

330 I was using the assumption you couldn't afford Ellis, Sabathia and Blake. Ellis, Sabathia and Branyan seem like 30 million or so worth of free agent.

Ken Levine says it is well know in MLB circles that Teixera DOES have attitude problems. And to add, that LAA players are concerned with how he will fit in there.

I want to be surprised by someone doing better than you expect

Ned provides ample opportunities for that.

Best hope: Andruw Jones takes a rehab assignment, and we won't see him until Sept.

Who knows what will happen with Manny next year. He is so unpredictable. One thing for sure is that he will become a quick favorite on this board. We haven't been able to watch a hitter like this since Gary Sheffield, and those were the fox years, so they don't count.

Ken Levine says it is well know in MLB circles that Teixera DOES have attitude problems

My sources say the same thing about Manny.

331 I'll disagree with that. Now we A's fans have to go back to dreaming that Eric Chavez will be healthy.

From ESPN:

Ramirez had a .312 batting average with 274 homers and 868 RBIs with the Red Sox, who have won as many postseason series with their former slugger in seven and a half seasons as the Dodgers have in the last 88 years.

Um... I think that math may be a little off

Sheffield....hmmm...Sheffield. Who does he remind me of.

someone go trip the ciricuit breaker at the vez so we can have a manny double header tomorrow!!!!!!!!!

How did Manny Ramirez not get the Indians "over the top"? They went to the World Series twice when he was on the team.

Does going "over the top" mean that you have to win the World Series? Anything else is a failure?

341 - A telegram!

I would take Dewitt before Branyan.

348 Best hope: Andruw Jones takes a rehab assignment, and we won't see him until Sept.

...of 2009

Safe to assume Manny will play tomorrow? I have tickets! And just to think- last weak I was moaning because I had to watch Andruw Jones and Pierre in the OF.

340 I don't know if that is true. Right now, I see two games on Fox and only one might go national is the game in August against the Phillies.

355 I'm just in a general bad mood anyway, so I should probably pipe down.

Juan Pierre still has a chance to be Dave Roberts 2004.

360 Doesn't ESPN have some flexibility with their Sunday night games?

336
How is that possible?

Kent at $9 million
Loaiza at $7 million
Garciaparra at $8.5 million
Furcal at $13 million
Lowe at $9 million

The only arb cases we have to worry about are Martin, Bills, and Kuo right? That is a max of $13 million or so. How does that put us at $95 million?

And with the loss of Schmidt, Jones, and Penny, we are looking at an extra $45 million in 2009. How is that $70 million?

356- The iPhone wasn't working that day.

If Manny doesn't play tomorrow I just spent $100 on some mediocre tickets for Kershaw/Johnson.

357 Yeah, thinking about it I would too. That's a really good defense, just a really anemic offense. I don't really like the idea of potentially starting the year with four automatic outs though.

362

If Juan Pierre would actually hit a groundball to 3rd.

It's pretty cool, I got a couple of tex messages & calls from friends asking me what I thought of the trade... that's never happened.

366 kershaw and manny in the same game. those tickets are gold.

364 Eric Stephen did the math way earlier this year, I was going off that.

365 That reminds me, A CA judge just ruled that early termination fees for cell phone contracts are illegal.

I've watched Manny Ramirez play quite a bit, and though I know there's no such thing as "knowing how to win" or "hitting in the clutch," I have rarely seen a player come through with bigger or more dramatic hits than he does. He was one of the major reasons that the Sox won their titles, or at least one of the major reasons they got to the big stage.

August and September are going to be damn fun, and October has a chance at being awesome. Assuming Torre benches Jones and Pierre.

Brian Skinner signed with the Clippers.

Andy LaRoche went 3-4 last night in his last game in the Dodger organization.

Fare thee well, young Andrew.

359 you never know, you may get lucky and have Torre rest Kemp and Ethier and you can watch Pierre-Jones-Manny....

It could be worse, we could have traded for Ken Griffy Jr.

When do the Dodgers have to make corresponding roster moves?

Is it 100% that Manny is a Dodger for only 2 months?

375 He will. If there was one player that really benefited from this deal it was Andy.

370 actually mine are kind of yellowish-orange

My initial reaction was Oh No!!!

Seeing Jon's response makes me feel better.

Right now I don't know how I feel except for one thing:

I am very happy for Andy LaRoche. He gets away from a team that was jerking him around, and he gets to play with his brother. Good luck, Andy. We'll miss you. We're glad you're finally going to get your chance.

As has been aptly pointed out above, Pierre seems to be the guy without a regular playing opportunity. Manny will play every day and Pierre can't play right and shouldn't play center.

He would most certainly clear waivers. The question is: Is there any bad contract out there which we could exchange for him in a trade next month, someone who doesn't play the outfield?

My brother-in-law, and D-Backs fan here in Arizona, drives in to a Discount Tire and observes this sign -- "free tickets to Dodgers/D-Backs Aug. 30." All it took was a free tire pressure check.

Buster Olney just said the D-Backs are clear favorites to win the division.

Buster Onley saying that AZ still wins the division. Who knew!

1,100 comments since 8 a.m. today

I wonder what the over/under is on how long the Andy watch will last...

378 Manny won't be here until tomorrow so I don't think we will know anything until then.

I suppose the Dodgers could pull another injury out of the hat but that remains to be seen.

374 - His presence in Phoenix was made superfluous by the drafting of Robin Lopez.
Skinner plays smaller than his size (6-9, 265) but he has a surprisingly decent mid-range jumper.

In order for Pierre to play, he has to go to CF. I don't see any way that Pierre plays much in CF. His defense is not good in CF and with Manny's minus defense in LF, we just couldn't afford that, even with Manny's bat. On top of that Jones will probably get a few starts in CF, if he isn't DFA'd or sent to the minors. Pierre can't play RF, that's for sure. Still don't see how this jigsaw is going to work out.
vr, Xei

Sweeney or Jones, who goes tomorrow?

382 Actually his brother is hurt right now, so they won't get to play together right away. Does this move make Andy the starting 3b for the Pirates? That Juan Batista is a gamer ya know.

383. Pierre for Maddux. Done

The Score Bard has barded:

https://humbug.baseballtoaster.com/archives/1079240.html

387 Thank goodness there wasn't a Yankee or Dodger game in the middle of all this.

If there was one player that really benefited from this deal it was Andy

Not a bad move for Bay either. Gets a chance to play for a better team, and also stands to earn a big raise if he plays up to his standards.

383 JP to San Fran for Dave Roberts.

At least Roberts knows his roll.

Sweeney has to go, doesn't he?

From a sabermetrics standpoint, now defensive analysis no longer will be muddled by the conundrum of "Manny's stats: Park effects or is he really that bad?"

385 I think it's a tossup at this point. The Diamondbacks have a two game advantage according to third order record and Manny probably lets us make up one of those games. After giving us our Manny win, we're pretty much even the rest of the way.

I can't imagine Pierre and Jones playing over Ethier. Especially now that Kemp has proven his value at the top of the lineup. Someone in the clubhouse needs to hide Pierre's Love Potion.

ToyCannon wrote-
1st Playoff Game:
Furcal(SS)
Ethier(RF)
Kemp (CF)
Manny (LF)
Loney(1st)
Blake(3rd)
Martin(C)
Kent(2nd)
Billingsley

You telling me that team does not have a shot at going to the world series?
-----

WOW, I thought ToyCannon had a better baseball mind than this. I have been griping all season that Torre has been waisting his best leadoff man (Martin) in the middle of the order trying to use him as an RBI bat. Now you are proposing that Martin be shuffled down to SEVENTH? I'm appalled. Why in the world would you waste a .394 OBP in the 7th slot? And to propose that Ethier should bat 2nd INSTEAD of Martin is sheerly mind-boggling. Ethier is a .336 OBP! Ethier is almost as bad at getting on-base as everyone's favorite whipping boy, El Juan Pierre. You can't bat Ethier 2nd and Martin 7th. It's absolutely not feasible within a successful lineup.

I still don't the jerking around Andy LaRoche comments, to me it was a situation of bad timing and bad luck.

The Dodgers never handed a job to any of their other young players, why should he be any different?

This is not to say that I don't think he should have gotten an opportunity but if he was jerked around, than every other young player on the team was too and yet they survived.

390 I thought Jason Powell played well enough last year to warrant a roster spot, so it's odd that they chose to waive him.

But I won't complain about Skinner; he won't hurt the team.

Prescription drugs that could change America.

http://tinyurl.com/6pzgvq

It doesn't matter much to me or the Dodgers and I'd rather they still be underdogs anyway, but Buster Olney has been pretty negative about all things Dodgers all season. I really don't know why certain reporters get a bee up their...nose about certain teams other than maybe a snub at a banquet or some false information once or whatever, but, sorry, Buster, I won't take anything you and Ken R say about them seriously at this point.

394 If Padres are dumping Maddux's salary, why would they take on Pierre's?

401 Don't forget about bullpens. AZ's is not looking good.

398 "At least Roberts knows his roll."

In fairness, I think Andrew ate JP's, so he never got to know it.

407
He claims he was a Dodger fan growing up, but I guess we did not win enough for him.

408. Because Pierre's not done after this year and the Dodger would have to pay at least half of it. I really think it has to be either that or release Jones. I'm betting on Pierre traded.

409 And despite that, the Diamondbacks have a two game third order lead. Just based on how the two teams have performed so far, the Diamondbacks are a slightly better team, Manny makes up the difference.

352

It may be, but the key word is October series (I abhor the word "postseason").

To win a World Series, you need to win 3 series, the LDS, the LCS and the WS.

So the Red Sox won 6 series right off the bat.

Going back to 1958, the Dodgers won

The '58 series (1)
2 series in the 60s (2)
the LCS in '74, '77, and '78 (3)
both the LCS and World Series in 81 and 88 (4)

and nothing since then. A total of 10 playoff series won. The Claim could be accurate.

I would love to be in the room to hear them tell him who Alston is and why he can't have 24.

403 - I think your disagreement could be expressed in a calmer or nicer way.

"Meanwhile, Andy LaRoche becomes the new Paul Konerko."

Some people never learn. And, anyway, how is Konerko doing at the moment?

This is the POWER BAT I was asking for.

True or false? TRUE.

best part i completely forgot i put $20 on the dodgers to go to the WS at 15-1! they have a legitimate shot now!

411 Ah, maybe he broke their heart or he tried out as a player for them as a kid and they weren't interested or he wanted to be an announcer for them but they decided to keep Vin Scully around instead or maybe he's just bitter and trying not to reveal his true inner fan. Like Bruce Jenkins.

The more I think about it, the more I could see the Dodgers keeping all five outfielders through the end of the year.

They broke his heart, I meant...

I need more coffee.

But today has already gotten my blood pressure way up.

Well, if nothing else, this thread should put to rest any notion that DodgerThoughts is an echo chamber. Lots of disagreement here.

My view is closest to Eric E's and regfairfield's. I don't like giving up LaRoche/Morris for 2 months of Ramirez + draft picks. What are the chances that those picks will produce players as good as the ones the team gave up? If the Dodgers win in all this year, great. Otherwise, they gave away their best hitting prospect since Konerko too cheaply.

417 I'm sure we made that trade thinking Konerko would collapse 10 years later.

403/416 - Plus I'd argue we're overvaluing batting order again. It's who is in that line-up that matters more to me at the moment than where they are situated.

Oh, and I definitely would be more positive about this had it been Ethier instead of LaRoche. Ethier is older, has lower upside, and doesn't play a position where the team has no depth.

And I really like Andre Ethier.

364
Here are the assumptions, with some adjustments:

2009:

Starters
C - Martin - $3.5m (estimated as "Super Two" arb)
1B - Loney - $500k (3rd year)
2B - Abreu - $400k (2nd year)
SS - Hu - $400k (rookie)
3B - DeWitt - $400k (1st year)
LF - Ethier - $2.5m (estimated as "Super Two" arb)
CF - Andruw - $17.1m
RF - Kemp - $500k (3rd year)
Total Starters - $25.3m

Bench
OF - Pierre - $10m
OF - Repko - $1m (2nd year arb)
C - John Q. Backstop - $1m
1B - Mark Sweeney Type - $1m
IF - Lucille II Type - $1m
Total Bench - $14m

Starting Pitching
Penny - $9.25m (option picked up -- I've seen this reported as low as $8.75m)
Billingsley - $500k (3rd year)
Kuroda - $10m
Schmidt - $15.5m
Kershaw - $400k (1st year)
Total Starting Pitching - $37.65m

Bullpen
Saito - $6m (1st year arb eligible)
Broxton - $2m (1st year arb eligible)
Proctor - $2m (2nd year arb eligible)
Brazoban - $1.5m (2nd year arb eligible)
Kuo - $500k (3rd year)
Seanez Type - $1m
Wade - $400k
Total Bullpen - $13m

Chaff
Nomar - $1.25m (part of deferred signing bonus)
Loaiza - $375k (optioni buyout)
Furcal - $4m (deferred signing bonus)
Total Chaff - $5.625m

Total 2009 Payroll (estimated) - $95.575m

-----------------

2010:

Starters
C - Martin - $8m (4th year; 2nd year arb)
1B - Loney - $3.5m (1st year arb)
2B - Abreu - $500k (3rd year)
SS - Hu - $400k (2nd year)
3B - DeWitt - $400k (2nd year)
LF - Ethier - $4m (4th year; 2nd year arb)
CF - Pierre - $10m
RF - Kemp - $3.5m (1st year arb)
Total Starters - $30.3m

Bench
OF - Delwyn Young - $500k (3rd year -- I think I left him off 2009)
OF - Repko - $2m (3rd year arb)
C - John Q. Backstop - $1m
1B - Mark Sweeney Type - $1m
IF - Lucille II Type - $1m
Total Bench - $5.5m

Starting Pitching
Billingsley - $4m (1st year arb)
Kuroda - $13m
Kershaw - $400k (2nd full year)
McDonald - $500k
Withrow/Elbert - $400k
Total Starting Pitching - $18.3m

Bullpen
Broxton - $4m (2nd year arb)
Proctor - $3m (3rd year arb)
Brazoban - $2.5m (3rd year arb)
Kuo - $1m (1st year arb)
Wade - $500k
Seanez Type - $1m
Seanez Type - $1m
Total Bullpen - $13m

Detritus
Nomar - $1.25m (part of deferred signing bonus)
Total Detritus - $1.25m

Total 2010 Payroll (estimated) - $68.35m

394 jujibee
Thinking like me. (wishful)
408 Deuce
If Padres are dumping Maddux's salary, why would they take on Pierre's?
a)for his speed
b)Colletti is on a roll

Either DeWitt or LaRoche had to go eventually. I think we kept the wrong one, but if the Manny thing works out, OH WELL.

420 If Pierre becomes the primary pinch hitter... but Jones?

Diamond has quotes from McCourt and Torre.

420 Jon Weisman
You know what they say. You can never have too many OFs.

I think Maddux might clear waivers and be an August pickup. If the Pads were intent on dumping salary and we picked up Berroa, Blake, and ManRam without paying any salary, we might be willing to pay $2 mil for a month of Maddux plus any postseason.

Martin
Ethier
Kemp
Manny
Blake
Kent
Jones
SS
P

That's my dream.

We aren't just going to trade or just DFA guys like Brazoban or Proctor?

433 - 4 OF's and no Loney?

1. Ned spends $45 million on Pierre to play CF
2. Next year, Ned spends $36 million on Jones to play CF, and moves Pierre to LF.
3. Later that year, Ned acquires Ramirez to play LF.

414
The Dodgers last 88 years have featured 12 postseason series wins (including the 1981 division series). The Manny Sox won 8 series.

427 Only one problem-Towers is smarter than Ned.

We have a few right handed hitters.

Having the Laroche/LaRoche bros on the corners will be a cool gimmick for the Bucs. I'm looking forward to watching Andy be an everyday guy.

Plashke on 710 gushing about the deal. "If the kids get benched, so what?" Oy Vey

433 So Manny is playing 1B instead of Loney?

Quick. What do Kent, Blake and Manny have in common?

435 I'm running between classroom cleaning and lineuping. Oops!

Ugh. Plaschke is spouting off on SportsCenter right now. The main downside of this trade, LaRoche aside, is Plaschke going on TV and thinking he was right all along.

McCourt on Ramirez possibly being a distraction: Not with Joe here.

Cause Joe has eliminated clubhouse distractions all season long.

Only one problem-Towers is smarter than Ned.

Not by much!

I think some of the disagreement about the cost of losing LaRoche has to do with two different sets of assumptions about his future with the Dodgers.

For those who think he's already be viewed as an untouchable if not for getting jerked around (even after the wrist injury), and who (like me) held out hope that Casey Blake was just a stopgap, and LaRoche would take over the job in April, the cost seems high.

For those who thought that LaRoche was so out of favor (deserved or not) that he was just taking up space, the cost seems low.

The same can be said about the OF situtation now. For those who think that Torre will do the "right" thing, Ramirez-Ethier-Kemp looks darn impressive. For those who think that Torre will do the PVL thing, Ramirez-Jones-Pierre looks awful.

Some of us are arguing the merits of the trade based on what they think should happen now, and others based on what they think will happen now.

A lot depends on Torre. He's given me little reason thus far to have faith. Which might mean that Colletti has to take the hit and remove one (or both) of Jones/Pierre. And I don't see that happening either.

426
Hmmmm...I did not know about the $4 mil owed to Furcal.

I stand corrected.

438 That, and DePo still lurks in the hearts of San Diego. San Fran looks like as easier play for a sucker. Seabaen apparently doesn't realize that rebuilding involves letting players under 30 play everyday instead of the +35 guys they're starting. Its like the Giants are trying to recreate the success the Indians had in Major League.

So, we trade JP to be their Willie "Mays" Hayes , we trade them Jason Schimdt back to them to be their Rick Vaughn, and we trade them Andruw Jones to be their Pedro Cerrano.

420 That's my feeling. Although I would not be surprised with some kind of "Andruw has played with an injury this year and requires surgery" type of news.

Let's try that again:

Martin
Ethier
Kemp
Manny
Loney
Blake
Kent
SS
P

Would anybody like a laminated poster of the parts of speech? Anyone?

By the way, all the Frank McCourt quotes on the radio sound like the tape has been sped up.

Would Manny, Pierre, Jones be the highest paid OF ever?

It's not that uncommon for a team to carry five outfielders. The composition of those five aside, I think the three backup shortstops are a bigger structural problem.

Is my math wrong? Dodgers stand to get 4-8 comp picks for Manny, Lowe, Blake, maybe Furcal? Could be an interesting time for Logan White. Sorry if this has been discussed.

453 - Only Manny, Crisp, Drew could come close, and I think LA "wins" that one.

[436 D4P]
3)Ned spends $0 on Ramirez to play LF.

torre will sit ethier in september just like little did last year...

kemp and pierre will platoon in rf

jones in cf, manny in lf

414 Yeah, I was thinking about it but it still didn't sound right, even accounting for lack of Division Series and even LCS back in the day. Maybe I just didn't want to to be true because that's kind of depressing.

440
At what point in their development do they stop being kids? Do they have to be over 30? Plaschke is just not any good at his job...

428 Perfectly correct. What I don't think people are getting -- seriously -- is that Manny is one of the best hitters of his generation. And he's still an excellent hitter. He's becomes one of the top 10 or 15 bats in the national league the second this deal is completed.

He turns a team that lacks a serious 25HR bat into a team that can produce runs. This is a big, big deal.

And while we are giving up a great prospect to get a great player, the question I think you have to ask yourself is: would you rather watch a .500 team for 5 years, or go all in for a World Series contender?

453 Vlad, Matthews and Hunter and Matsui, Damon and Abreu should be up there. Plus remember, the Dodgers are not paying Manny anything.

27. My day exactly, Greg. We start school this Tuesday. Good jorb, indeed, Coach Z!

I'm kind of surprised there are is any negative reaction to this trade. I chalk it up to the fact that DTers just love youth and potential and in my opinion, often overvalue it. LaRoche MIGHT be good. DeWitt MIGHT be good too. Ramirez isn't just good. He's great. And with the Dodgers teetering on the fence between contenders and also rans, he gives us a legitimate chance to go to the World Series. He is a difference maker. If he is a difference maker for one year, that is worth a lot. It's worth LaRoche who will not likely be the difference between winning and losing any season. Sure, ANY trade can end up working against you. But LaRoche for Ramirez? Seriously? This is highway robbery. It's a mis-match trade that is ONLY happening because the RedSox feel forced to trade him. Every call and text I've gotten has said "you must be loving this".

451 - Much better.

And the bench:

Pierre (LH pinch hitter/runner)
Andruw (defensive replacement extraordinaire)
Ozuna (Kent's caddy)
Hu/Berroa (Nomar's caddy)
Ardoin

Sweeney (and Berroa, if there's any justice) DFA'd

It has just occurred to me that the Pirates' uniform guy has an interesting quandary to solve - 2 uniforms with the name LaRoche, and both starting with an A...

I wonder what Manny would have cost if Colletti hadn't gotten his credit cards cut up.

http://alyssa.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/07/manny_will_be_manny_in_dodger.html

"I was in the middle of writing an entry blasting the Dodgers for not doing anything significant before the Trade Deadline and then, out of nowhere, my cell phone chimed alerting me of a text message. I expected to look down and see an MLB Text Alert saying, "Yup Alyssa, the Dodgers are lame," but low and behold, instead it was an MLB alert that read, "Alyssa, the Dodgers got freaking Manny Ramirez!" Well, that's not really what it said but ... wow."

...

"Oh. Another email. Hold please.

I'm back. It was Kevin Kennedy. His email said, "This is a difference maker. We will win the division." From his mouth, to God's ears. I love Kevin Kennedy. I love him. He is so passionate about the Dodgers."

The general consensus on BBTF is that Frank McCourt is in serious financial trouble.

I have no comment, it's just weird how everybody accepts this as fact.

466

It'll be LaRoche I, and LaRoche II.

464 Couldn't agree more! Well said! DT is majorly risk averse, it's a fact.

420 - "The more I think about it, the more I could see the Dodgers keeping all five outfielders through the end of the year".

And Pee Wee? (break it to me slowly) {sigh}

464 - Not to mention the Red Sox eating his salary.

(And I will absolutely miss LaRoche, and wish him well, will root for him. But generally agree with you.)

Ok off the subject Anyone remember the password to get discounted tickets to tonights game??

Do you guys think ManRam will make it to tonights game?

The Dodgers are the Miami Heat trading for Shaq (disgruntled star, looking to dominate to show up old team, Lamar Odom=LaRoche (player who causes a split in fans who support and those who don't)). Dodgers will get within one game of the World Series this year... and who knows what happens next.

466 You forget that Adam is LaRoche, while Andy is Laroche.

464 The problem comes when you trade six years of might be great for two months of great.

469 Yeah, and then McCourt will be forced to sell the Dodgers to somebody who actually has money.

I want to re-sign Manny. I can't stand losing Laroche for 2 months of Manny and 2 crapshoot draft picks.

I like this trade too. I can respect and understand someone not liking this trade, but am baffled by comments like losing LaRoche has crippled us in 2009 and beyond. Really? People throw out stats to support their causes, but how much of an upgrade would LaRoche be over someone like DeWitt? One game, two? And that's assuming we don't sign someone who is comparable to LaRoche. Either way, I don't think this trade cripples us. There is always a chance that some prospect we traded might cause regret in the future. But to never trade that prospect for a chance to have a special team this year is just fear to me.

I think we can all agree that the first Simers/Manny meeting is going to be a hoot.

469 yes, everyone thinks McCourt is broke...I don't get it...

what I would give to have purchased the Dodgers for no money down...unbelievable...

in my book, the guy is a genius....

471 - Dude, your constant sweeping judgements about "DT" are tiresome, I'm sorry. If you'd actually read all the comments over the past 24 hours you couldn't find a more disparate (diverse) group of philosophies and opinions, and we all get along pretty well. A LOT of us are excited about Manny. Many of us are sad to see LaRoche go, too. Many of us have mixed feelings. Some are firmly against the trade. Etc. Why do you feel it necessary to post things that are adversarial? I'm sorry, I appreciate your opinions here and welcome them openly but I'd really love it if you could tone the sweeping judgment down. Thanks.

479 I would like that too, but the draft picks don't upset me. Logan White gives me much faith.

466 I don't wanna be that guy

478 I'm not sure, but wasn't a group led by an O'Malley looking to buy back the Dodgers back when McCourt bought the team from Fox? I might be way off on that, however.

yes, everyone thinks McCourt is broke...I don't get it...

The Dodgers made two trades in which the other team agreed to pay all of the remaining salary. It's not like the broke talk is out of nowhere.

464-right on. i can't wait to see manny taking his hacks here.

The only way this team is crippled in 2009 if we suddenly lose Bills and Kershaw to injury for the whole year. We had a hole in 2008 for most of the year, and it didn't wreck our year, it just made it more frustrating than it should have been. If there's still a hole in 2009(with LaRoche traded, I'm in favor of resigning Casey Blake for a 1-2 year deal.), it won't wreck our season. This team is usually built around pitching and defense, and 2009 isn't going to be any different.

464-right on. i can't wait to see manny taking his hacks here.

The only way this team is crippled in 2009 if we suddenly lose Bills and Kershaw to injury for the whole year. We had a hole in 2008 for most of the year, and it didn't wreck our year, it just made it more frustrating than it should have been. If there's still a hole in 2009(with LaRoche traded, I'm in favor of resigning Casey Blake for a 1-2 year deal.), it won't wreck our season. This team is usually built around pitching and defense, and 2009 isn't going to be any different.

464. Expected values. 100% chance of 90 is 90. 50% chance of 70 is 35. And you can NOT plan baseball rosters past three years out in 2008. Those days have long past and we all need to accept that. A prospects expected value to the Dodgers in 2012 is zero.

464 - There are Ifs on both sides. I'm not surprised there's a split reaction.

487

The payroll is around 120 million... come on.

If there is any hope for Andruw Jones.

Jim Edmonds numbers since patrolling the outfield for the Cubs (he also has 12 HRs)
.277/.372/.587

460 - I have asked the same question. I don't see the D'Backs rookies being referred to as kids anywhere. It seems like this is confined to the Dodgers but I don't know why.

476 Lexinthedena
Is the username case sensitive?

118 million dollar payroll and massive renovations to the stadium.

Frank McCourt hasn't been a good owner, but there are zero indications he's broke.

Maybe he didn't want to raise payroll because his GM keeps spending it terribly at every turn.

sorry for the double post.

An. LaRoche
Ad. LaRoche

Problem solved.

Or they may just get FNOB treatment. Sort of like when the Rams had Jack and Jim Youngblood.

Where are people getting these crystal balls that allows them to know LaRoche and the Dodgers would be mediocre for years to come if they stuck together?

The payroll is around 120 million... come on

So...the higher the payroll the less likely McCourt is to be broke? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

487 so McCourt is broke because he has the good business sense to pick up a 3B who can hit and one of the best hitters in all of baseball....and at no cost to him whatsoever??

clearly brilliant business moves...

492 was for 477

I think McCourt is willing to pay for a winner. However, he's lost confidence in Ned when he has seen what increasing payroll has brought him.

Ned has a tight budget to work with and he worked with it.

I want to get to October. I hope he made the right moves. With Arizona as deep as they are, it could come down to one game and if ManRam makes the difference, Ned is a genius.

118 million dollar payroll and massive renovations to the stadium.

Frank McCourt hasn't been a good owner, but there are zero indications he's broke.

But maybe the payroll and stadium renovations are why he's broke.

I'm not saying he's broke, I'm just saying that people who think so are not just making stuff up.

Casey Blake's (pre-season) PECOTA projections for 2009 and 2010 are both under 2 WARP. FWIW.

502

Or maybe he isn't broke because he is affording a 120 mil payroll???

For reference here's Red Sox Series won in the last 88 years:

2007: 3 series won (LDS, LCS, WS)
2004: 3 series won
2003: One series won
1999: one series won
1986: one series won
1975: one series won

10 series in total... You're right... the figure is still erroneous.

489 - I've read reports that Blake has extremely limited range at 3B. I'm not sure his offense compensates enough to justify giving him a starting job.

So if I do the math as optimistically as possible, Manny gives us an additional 25% chance at making the playoffs. I'm still torn about if it was worth it.

487 Do you think that the Dodgers would have paid less if they took the contract on. I mean how less in terms of players would they have had to give up if they agree to take on the money, I think that was always a component of the deal, Boston was the one forcing the action.

On the Blake deal, sure it does seem like they probably had to deal 2 guys to get Cleveland to pick up the contract but again, its not my money and if the Dodgers feel they are paying enough in payroll this year, that's there perogative.

I'm just saying that people who think so are not just making stuff up.

Yes, they are. They're just using small bits of info to make stuff up.

Everybody with access to Frank McCourt's portfolio, please step forward.

Or maybe he isn't broke because he is affording a 120 mil payroll???

So if the payroll was $20 million, you'd be more inclined to think he was broke?

506 yeah, if sportwriters say he is broke, it must be so...because they investigate before they write anything, and their thoughts are supported by facts...

as Vinny would say, "uh huh"

514
Ummm...yes?

Fine. You guys win.

The more money Frank spends, the more he has left after spending it.

511 If you were not a Dodger fan or a LaRoche fan, would a 25% chance be worth it, objectively speaking?

People have been saying McCourt was broke since before he bought the team. I like it better when the accusations are funny, instead of just boring. But I don't care that much, either way.

517 Be careful. Straw men are extremely flammable.

518 I honestly don't know.

I go to lunch, eat some going-away cake and on my drive home I learn that we got Manny without giving up anyone on the 25 man roster.

Like others have said, I'm going to miss the hell out of LaRoche (sob), but damn.

517
I assume McCourt has leveraged himself a lot because of the stadium improvements, but if our payroll suddenly went from $100 million to $20 million then I would think he's got no money to spend.

If you believe the reports, the Dodgers had a choice between:
A) Keeping Carlos Santana and paying Casey Blake's salary, or
B) Giving away Carlos Santana and getting Blake's salary paid for.

They chose B, which is a choice that you only make if you're either broke or stupid. So the Dodgers are probably one or the other.

510 Actually, Casey Blake's defense with the Dodgers has been great, including making some defensive gems. A couple of posters here(me included) were wondering if the reports on Blake playing bad defense were just overblown.
Blake apparently has problems playing close to the 3rd base line, but so far we haven't seen balls hit straight down the line yet that forced him to make that type of move.

512 I'm not downgrading Andy LaRoche with this comment. My point is that the Pirates were the ones who wanted quanity and quality to give up Bay, if the Dodgers say we'll pay the money and give you Morris and Xavier Paul, do the Pirates sign off on that. Or maybe it took LaRoche to get the deal done, if you throw in Morris for $7 million dollars, I think I do that deal.

509 Whew. I knew that was off somehow!

466 Box scores use First Name initial and second letter of first name:

Ha Ramirez
Ma Ramirez

Thus Ad LaRoche and An Laroche.

I don't see what the big deal is... just put "LaRoche" on the back of both of them. Initials on jerseys always look silly anyway. People can tell them apart by the way they look. Failing that, they can tell them apart by uniform number. And if they need more help than that, well, screw 'em.

I always wondered why the Braves felt they needed initials to tell Andruw and Chipper Jones apart. If you can't tell those guys apart, you've got bigger problems than can be solved by needlework.

481
Heh...To be a fly on the wall...

Even better is when/if he gets interviewed by Vick the Brick for the first time.

482
That is ridiculous, at least from the outside. He has spent something like $50 million on the stadium already, and though he has raised parking/ticket prices, he has kept the payroll at about the same level as when Fox owned the team.

http://tinyurl.com/5aannj
According to Forbes, McCourt has an asset called the LA Dodgers worth 694 Million dollars. He paid $430 million for that asset. And given that MLB allowed the sale, I assume he could afford the asset when he bought it. He should be fine.

521 The Dodgers gave up LaRoche (+1) to get Manny Ramirez. I realize that another team was involved, the Sox got Bay (not LaRoche), but if you were a Red Sox fan and this was a straight up deal, what would you think?

Ramirez for...who? What has he done in the majors? Oh....

So does this mean Kent will never hit cleanup for the Dodgers again?

513 Do other major league owners have access to his financial info?

526- Or the Red Sox pony up another prospect, right? They're the ones out the money, aren't they the ones who'd be on the hypothetical hook?

522 "LaRoche (sob)"

Ned's feelings exactly!

Maybe he didn't want to raise payroll because his GM keeps spending it terribly at every turn.

Ding Ding Ding...We have a winner!

492 but you left out time. 1/3 of a year times 90 = 30. 3 years x 35 = 105

Dear 570 talk hosts,

Shut up and let Ray sing. This is a fantastic song. You're ruining it.

Yours in Ch-i,
Somebody with ears and a brain

521 Well, then at least you know it's not a terrible deal. If you're not sure you'd approve, it can't be too bad one way or another.

Uh, lineup:

Dodgers:

Pierre, LF
Kemp, RF
Martin, C
Kent, 2B
Loney, 1B
Blake, 3B
Jones, CF
Berroa, SS
Lowe, RHP

The Dodgers not picking up the remaining salaries may actually affirm McCourt's control of Ned and the moves he makes. If I were in McCourt's shoes, I wouldn't be happy about spending $44 mil on a fourth outfielder, $47 mil on a broken pitcher and $36 mil on a sub .200 hitting replacement for the 4th outfielder, and so on. This is regardless of total payroll or general affordability, for the most part it's been wasted money, no one likes that.

526
That seems the most reasonable explanation of the chain of events that led to the trade.

534
The other owners saw McCourt's financials when he bought the Dodgers, but I don't think anyone outside of the Commissioner's Office gets to see ongoing reports.

Baseball teams are privately held and exempt from antitrust, so it's not like there's an MLB version of EDGAR.

533 Yes!

Titans released WR Mike Williams today, probably ending his uneventful NFL career.

I heard a live interview with Tony Jacksonon on ESPN and understand why he is considered such an A-hole.

524 sadly, i'd say the smart money's on stupid.

541 Joe Torre: "My foot hurts."
Greek chorus: "Well, why did you shoot it, then?"

403
Normally I would bat Martin much higher but by Oct 1st I think his legs will be shot and I'm not expecting much offense from him. I try to look at it from all angles.

Is Torre giving Jones and Pierre one more start to say goodbye before Manny arrives? Or is this a sign?

Ever since Eric Stephen went to that game (or games; I couldn't really tell) with bhsportsguy, he's been agreeing with him an awful lot, I think. I suspect chicanery.

From Shaikin:

McCourt said that the Dodgers had acquired Ramirez at the end of a news conference announcing that the semifinals and final of the 2009 World Baseball Classic would be held at Dodger Stadium, stunning some of the players who attended the event.

"I didn't know what he was talking about," Chan Ho Park said. "I thought he was talking about Manny Mota."

Closer Takashi Saito wondered aloud if he had been traded.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-manny1-2008aug01,0,3827406.story

538. Not as simple as that. What if I could give you Sandy Koufax in his prime to pitch one game - game 7 of the World Series. Is he worth 1/177 of a season? Ramirez is good in the 2nd half of a season in which we already have a chance. And he's good RIGHT NOW. Maybe LaRoche will be good. Maybe when he it won't help us. His expected value just doesn't stack up to Ramirez by a long shot.

546
Williams should be there whenever Maurice Clarrett gets out of prison just to punch him in the face.

551 Hope will set you free.

I just wanted to chime in and say: after so many years of mediocrity, this is truly exciting.
I love LaRoche, but I love this deal more. Wow. The Dodgers did something! And it didn't include dumping the fan favorite catcher to Florida this time. F'in A!

Whoa. That line-up has a huge black hole tonight. I don't know if that is gonna work against the snakes.

Pluggin Manny Ramirez's current 2008 stats into my park factors utility that will convert a players stat line from one home park to another. It doesn't adjust for quality of league, so keep that in mind. For Ramirez he lost two hits, going from 109 to 107 on hits. His singles remained at 66. His doubles dropped from 22 to 18. His triples stayed at 1. His HRs increased from 20 to 22. His walks went from 52 to 53. Based on this, he would get a very slight drop in his average and OBP and his SLG would stay the same. vr, Xei

552
Again, I think you should still wear corduroy to the DT picnic.

Holy cow great move Dodgers. I know I know the reason it may not be but this should add some life and also a great bat.

1331 comments today and counting...

555
Mike's problems go way beyond that. Even Kiffin openly said that Mike has too many issues with responsibility and he had enough of him.

553 I liked this part as well:

"I really applaud Ned and his people for being able to pull these deals off within a framework of trying to keep as many as the coveted young players that we have on our roster," McCourt said.

541 Yikes, that lineup's pretty bad.

Wow, Jones against Webb seems like a recipe for disaster. Maybe the Manny trade will stir a fire under his oversized... um, rear.

Also, I had forgotten in all this, that we still have Berroa.

With this development, it becomes crucial that Torre plays his best players. If he doesn't Colletti and possibly Torre is done.

560- The same thing happened to Brock, last year. There's evidence of a Manchurian Candidate effect. Somebody should investigate. D4P should start making unfounded allegations and innuendo.

So its a platoon of Andruw Jones/Juan Pierre/Andre Ethier.

567 That is assuming Torre and McCourt disagree on "best players". I'm guessing they don't.

544 I only ask because I've overheard some joking barbs lobbed in McCourt's direction by people who could be "in-the-know", and if they had access to definitive info, that would change the 'weighting' applied to the jokes...

554 but what if you have a 5% chance of going to the world series in the first place? is it worth giving up much to have access to one game of sandy, just in case? we're a .500 team. manny improves us a bit, but are we world series favorites, or even serious contenders? not really. i think our chances of getting to the world series this year may have gone from something like 3-5% to maybe 6-10%. that's an improvement, sure. i don't know how much that's worth though.

556
Sigh, every Dodger fan knows that "hope is a thing with feathers."

569 I think so. And that's not optimal, but it's ok. It is way more important that Kemp and Manny play everyday and Ethier gets more PT than the other two, although I think Pierre wins that battle.

568 BH is like the most unbelievably nice person in the world.

I feel like a turd everytime I disagree with him on here.

That's his angle. The whole "look at me, I'm a nice guy" schtick. It's right out of the grifter's playbook.

Not starting Ethier against Webb is a giant mistake. He's only 6 for 14 with 3 doubles against Webb. Ethier must be hurt. It makes zero sense otherwise.

Hurry, Manny.

Many thanks.

Sincerely...

573 That (and the trailing few stanzas) were the only thing attached to an email letting me know my long-shot loophole to graduate a summer session early from UCLA paid off.

The joys of being an American Lit major.

Back to reality...Jones, Pierre, and Berroa against Webb? We'll be lucky to score one run tonight.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_g5-bZ38yOUE/SJHFjG3sxJI/AAAAAAAAA-c/Xm59k5sV4to/s1600-h/bay.jpg

Jason Bay is scared of balls.

573 And a donut without a hole is a danish.

Today's comments have made me really looking forward to the picnic with you characters.

565 We're just spotting the DBacks an extra game in the standings before Manny arrives and helps us overtake them.

560 Its now time for a running total of outfielder starts since Pierre's return (7 games including tonight).

Kemp - 7 starts
Pierre - 6 starts
Jones - 4 starts
Ethier - 4 starts

572 One, I disagree that our chance is only 5% and the incremental increase is that low. But let's say you're right. Does keeping and not keeping LaRoche deeply impact the Dodgers chances for a WS in 2009 and beyond. I have to say that if the Dodgers have a 10% chance of winning the WS in the next 5 years, losing La Roche, in a worst case scenario, reduces those chances to, what, 9.5%? And I really think that's if LaRoche is better than average, which is likely, but not guaranteed at all.

576 - He's staying home to watch his "Before the Bigs" debut. Or he's being traded. Or it means nothing. One of dese.

Today's deal has grown men squee-ing on air. It's not a pretty sight/sound.

Jones is untradable. Pierre is untradable. Ethier could be traded but wasn't. I still think he gets most of the starts, especially after Jones pulls his oblique here in a few days.

MLB.com's Gameday boxscore for the Yankees today lists:
"Rodriguez, A, 3B"
"Rodriguez, C"

So I gather that this is the first time two members of the 500 HR club have been traded on the same day?

584
It's like the movie Face Off! Only entertaining.

572. Yes. Doubling your chance of going to the World Series for one year is worth more than LaRoche would bring them over the next three. I believe far more. There are no guarantees in baseball. Not LaRoche and not Ramirez. You can only do the best you can and this is that. There seems to be so little reason to believe that LaRoche will be a huge factor in any of the next three years. Every reason to believe Manny will this year. BTW, I think any players expected value drops exponentially as you project out into future years.

586 Any chance it means the lineup will be revised. It really boggles the mind that Jones is back out there after last night.

589 I've been saying it's about time Cynthia Rodriguez got a start. It was in the prenup.

I mean both Pierre and Jones have horrible stats against Webb. Ethier hits him well. Yet, Ethier sits. There's has to be more to it.

407 You really wanted to use the word `bonnet', didn't you, underdog?

Wow, the next two months around here just got a whole lot more interesting.

I think there are a lot more potentially positive outcomes for this trade than negative.

Torre finally gets a chance to put his peacemaking/dealing with prima donna skills to good use. I think there was a lot of credence in the discussions earlier this week about Torre being the wrong guy for the Dodgers job. The dynamics of implementing a youth movement instead of being the steady hand guiding an experienced but multi-mega-egod, highly paid veteran club are completely different, and both Torre and the Dodgers may have made the wrong choice in joining forces. At least now we should be utilizing his best managerial attribute.

Pierre is the odd man out. It goes against established baseball wisdom to put the weak armed OF in right field; here at DT, we may mock the unwritten code of established baseball wisdom but sometimes it does pay dividends. Torre will not play Pierre in right. That doesn't mean we won't ever see Pierre, but it does mean that we won't be seeing Ramirez-Jones-Pierre. Coming off of the bench as a PH, PR, or adequate CF or LF defensive replacement, Pierre may actually prove quite valuable. Overpaid sure, but that's a problem for another day.

This morning, we were probably a 49-51 chance to win the NL West. That shifts way over to our side with the upgrade of Ramirez over Pierre. I don't know if it makes us the favorite to win the NL, but like others have mentioned, it sure gives a legitimate shot and not just some "catch lightning in a bottle" desperate hope.

592 well, "doubling" from 3 to 6 is a lot different than doubling 20 to 40, that's all i'm saying. i'm not dead set against the deal or anything, and it has its merits for sure, but i guess i'm not as sanguine as you are. and even if you are inclined to think well of laroche, he wasn't getting much of a chance in LA, especially not with the stupid casey blake deal, so maybe it's better to trade him grab manny than keep laroche and let him rot.

Interesting lineup. Are they having phantom-DL auditions?

Jones could be traded before the end of August if the Dodgers want to rid themselves of the outfield jam. He will easily clear waivers. All they have to do is eat a bunch of cash. That's the question. And despite what people think of him, Pierre probably wouldn't clear.

I completely forgot that the Dodgers have huge series beginning tonight. With that lineup, Torre looks like he's mailing it in. Way to go, Joe.

I have zero faith that Torre will put Pierre on the bench. Ethier will be lucky to get two starts a week the rest of the way.

600 I think Pierre not clearing waivers is good. It means someone is taking him off our hands.

Right?

Does anyone remember who were we bidding against for Jones in the offseason? I can't think of one team, but there must have ben three or four, right?

590
I'm assuming you meant traded while they had 500+ HR, but looking back Eddie Murray and Rafael Palmeiro were traded one day apart in December 1988.

I just realized that the one thing the Red Sox can do to instantly refix their offense...sign Barry Bonds. They might just gave themselves the reason to do it.

602
Most likely, if anyone claimed Pierre, the Dodgers would simply pull him back. But I doubt anyone would claim him.

Apropos of nothing, but of interest to any of us who have web sites/blogs that we moderate, an interesting new piece on the NY Times on "trolls."

http://tinyurl.com/5vnqlg

605
Bay isn't a bad replacement for Manny though.

605
Jason Bay is good and they have him through next season. Jason Bay is perhaps the most valuable piece in this trade.

605 - so you'd play Bonds over Jason Bay?

606 - Why would LA pull him back? You don't think they'd give him away for free, in order to let someone else take his contract?

And Teixeira steals second against Pudge.

BOOM!

596 Indeed! I thought that word was a rule 1 violation but was mistaken. Should've just put on my old grey bonnet with the blue ribbon on it...

607
Looks like the trolls got to that link.

I just read through more than 700 comments in the previous thread only to find that I have more than 600 waiting to read in the current thread. WOW! What a day. :-)

Be ready to watch some called third strikes right down the plate.

Manny, for being an unbelievable hitter, guesses a ton. It's weird to see a great hitter take so many right down the chute.

And that's when he's trying.

607 Oh crap, they mentioned the site that must not be named.

600. Are you kidding? If Pierre doesn't clear waivers LA should throw a parade in celebration! Ned would probably be willing to lead it at this point.

Old friend Franquelis Osoria was one of the players the Pirates DFA'd to make room for LaRoche & Co.

I say we call Manny the Predator. Just put the mask on him and it's perfect.

4chan isn't really trolls. I'm not sure there's a word in common use to describe them. The LA Times had a piece about how filthy web dwellers are today, too. Didn't really do it for me.

617 Yeah, wow, who ever thought [website redacted] would make the Times. And they specifically mentioned the worst page on that site.

Wow.

RE: Saito thinking he was traded.

I guess Sammy does sound like Manny.

I would even be happy with a Manny/Jones/Kemp outfield for the next two weeks. If Jones does not show any signs of renewal after all the work he and Mattingly are doing then he probably hits the DL but I'd be shocked if he is DFA'd. But then I swore that I'd never see a team with Manny/Kent/Bowa on it so I'm useless.

605 The Dodgers could have signed Bonds too and we'd still have LaRoache.

Kenny Williams said trust me it is easier to play centerfield than a corner outfield spot.

576--Torre's getting him used to the bench.

I go on vacation for two weeks, mostly without communication of any kind, and all hell breaks loose. The Angels are suddenly able to beat the Red Sox at will, and the Dodgers trade for Manny, sending out one of the favored sons of Dodger Thoughts in return. This is a crazy world. Maybe I should go back to living away from the rest of society.

623---> Guys on the DL cant be traded. Maybe Saito didnt know that rule.

621 You'd be surprised how much raiding crap goes down, and the amount and time needed to clamp down on it... Not that I know about any of that. *Tries to walk away slowly.

Maybe I should go back to living away from the rest of society.

As opposed to Utah?

I kid the great state of Utah. It's beautiful. Very nice people.

624 This is what I think they'll do too. They can bring Ethier in in the late innings for Manny if they feel the need. If Jones doesn't work out they have to put Ethier back in. I don't see an outfield of Manny-Pierre- Kemp. One of the reasons they got Jones was they didn't like Pierre in center - now all of a sudden they do?

629 Guys on the DL need the Commish's okay to be traded. Mostly to prevent expensive salaries dumps that went awry.

Actually players on the DL can be traded. They usually aren't because teams don't want a player that they know is hurt.

It's going to take some time getting used to seeing Manny in a Dodger uniform.

551 556 Jones got a double yesterday. So he's being encouraged. Ethier didn't get a hit yesterday. Plus he's not a vet. So he can be reprimanded/ignored. Pierre plays, as long he's not in a total slump, with the occasional rest day.

Without checking Bronx Banter, I'm guessing there are a lot of people over there complaining about the Yankees' archnemesis who is being all nemesisy tonight.

If it hasn't been mentioned yet, I guess we'll get to see what LaRoche does with regular playing time. I believe the only non-western division team LA plays for the rest of the year is the Pirates. It will be interesting to see how Andy is doing in mid-September.

Yeah, the Dodgers were still playing Jones or Kemp in center when JP was playing on a regular basis. Has JP even played center this year?

YES!!! Memphis is getting investigated.

Okay, good chance they will get off free like USC continues to, but at least it is a start.

http://tinyurl.com/6p7ffm

630- I'm not saying they're peaches and cream. I'm saying troll doesn't really work, since it's more systematic. Trolls are single bad actors. They may team up in threads, but that's not typically by design, right? [The group we're apparently not naming, so I won't do it again] is a different creature. Not better, necessarily, but different enough to deserve its own word.

613 Uh oh. I may have opened up a can of worms here...

638 There's a 4 game series in Pittsburgh from Sept 15-18.

Once Manny gets here he'll play left field almost everyday. So that leaves center and right. Pierre cannot and will not play right field. So, we're looking at:

Manny/Jones/Kemp

OR

Manny/Kemp/Ethier

OR

Manny/Pierre/Kemp

That's it.

618
Are you kidding? If Pierre doesn't clear waivers LA should throw a parade in celebration! Ned would probably be willing to lead it at this point.

Normally I would say Ned has done nothing to indicate he thinks Pierre was a bad signing, or that he is a bad player. However...

1) he signed a CF only a year after signing Pierre, moving JP to LF
2) he traded for Manny, who hasn't played RF since 2000

I suppose Manny could play RF for the Dodgers, with Pierre in LF, but a more likely scenario is Kemp in RF, Pierre in CF, and Manny in LF.

How Torre juggles the OF playing time is the key to maximizing the Manny trade.

Manny in right and Pierre in left, and I submit that Joe Torre is throwing baseball games on purpose.

641 True, but /b/tards do use the site and similar sites to plan out attacks to get their jollies. From Habbo Hotel, to setting up protests of Scientology. The Jake Brahm disaster still makes me face palm, and the only thing we got out of that besides a dumb kid screwing up is that We shouldn't mess with Football.

As opposed to throwing them accidentally.

/Cuts Bob off before he hits that one.

648
As opposed to throwing other types of games (on purpose or accidentally).

Manny is confirmed on an American Airlines flight to arrive at LAX tomorrow 8/1. Don't ask me how I know.

649 Blindsided!

A sneaky move.

I can just see Torre talking to Manny about asking him to move positions so he can start Juan Pierre everyday.

I hope Manny gets on the right plane.

And goes to the right airport.

And remembers to get up.

653 - He's no Pascual Perez.

653
Maybe access to better Yoda will make him more motivated.

Or totally ruin him.

So which hotel will Ramirez use until he finds housing? I'm hoping it's the Biltmore, so I can run into him at lunchtime when he comes to use the library.

Torre:

We've been inconsistent. Hopefully, Manny will up that level.

Come again...?

655 Yes. We have not factored in Manny's newfound access to West Coast Yoda.

This could have major ramifications.

647- I'm not arguing about what they do. Just about the semantics of calling it trolling. Are denial of service attacks trolling? If the definition of the word includes everything from writing "Dodgers are teh suxxor!," here, to melting down large swaths of the internet, it loses a lot of its usefulness. That it's on the internet and malicious isn't narrow enough, for my tastes.

Better Yoda?

I think I've got a good DVD for that if he wants it. It's Iyengar Yoda. Best part is "dog, downward facing."

657 To a higher level of inconsistency?

Who's that?
Yoda on the scene!
900 year old man smokin' Degobah green!

Yeah, any reason Manny can't play RF? I mean, I know he's a terrible outfielder, but does he have a weak arm? That's the only difference b/w LF and RF.

Pierre plays LF OK and CF poorly.
Manny plays LF or RF, albeit poorly.
Ethier plays left out, mostly, but can handle the corners well if given the chance.
Kemp can play any OF position adequately.
Jones can't hit, but plays CF when he plays.

Looks to me like any set of 3 OFers is possible. Only one is correct.

"Im a .300 hitter, i can take a nap whenever i want"

Manny Ramirez on 710 ESPN

LoL

Just to bring in some levity with all the tension here today, how about a lame joke.

I went to the zoo yesterday. It was a small, crappy zoo. The only animal they had was a little dog. It was a shitzu.

I thought it was Dagoba. Which make me think of Abe Vigoda.

It's actually Dagobah.

vs. Webb

Ethier: 1.172 OPS (17 PAs)
Kemp: .286 OPS (7 PAs)
Pierre: .412 OPS (32 PAs)
Jones: .528 OPS (18 PAs)

I'm not sure how I feel about the deal yet, but I'm leaning toward not liking it. If they lose in the first round of the playoffs, it wasn't a good deal. They can do that without Manny. If they get deep into the playoffs you might make a case for it being a good deal. If they go to the WS - well, good trade. It should put more butts in the seats, so Frank should be happy about that.

It certainly looks like there will be a lot of holes in the infield next year. Even though they didn't give LaRoche a shot this year, I think he would have had his chance next year if they had kept him.

666 That's a chocolate bar company.

--

Okay, just to get you in the mood for this weekend, here's the DBack fan perspective (or multiple perspectives, I should say):

http://tinyurl.com/657xua

Some amusing stuff in there, actually.

Stupid George Lucas and his stupid spellings. It's taken me darn near 30 years to learn how to spell "Wookiee" correctly.

663
He played RF for the Indians and wasn't happy about moving to LF for Boston. I'm sure at some point we will see a Pierre/Jones/Manny configuration but hopefully it will just be for a game or two and not the norm. DT would not be a good place to hang around if that was to happen.

What a kickin friggin bench we'd have.

Notes from pregame chat with Torre:

Manny trade helps Dodgers in a big way.

Torre doesn't know how this trade will affect playing time.

Will bat Manny 3rd, 4th or 5th. But, most likely high in the order.

Kent is not in the lineup as he banged his knee last night sliding into third. But, he'll play tomorrow. Ozuna will play second tonight. (Not sure when this interview was taped)

We could be trading for Manny to boast our bench. Just think about it, Manny makes that Bench turn from meh to the best bench ever.

McCourt gets another man from Boston.

Between McCourt fan-linked to the Red Sox, Colletti career-linked to the Giants, and Yankees running the team, when Vin leaves, who will represent the Dodgers in this organization?

Tony Jackson thinks DY might get DFA.

Angels are just slicing through the East Coast. Tori Hunter is on fire.

Pierre, Ozuna, Berroa and Jones in the line-up tonight. Maybe we should play the neutral zone trap, like they do in the NHL, since we ain't scoring a lot of runs.

675
The Golden God from Canada.

674. Yeah, one way to have a great bench is to start your worst players. Just ask Jim Tracy.

Tony Jackson thinks DY might get DFA

That would be my prediction.

676 He might, but it wouldn't help the current roster situation any.

767 Mark Sweeney cannot be killed and will not die.

He is Jason Voorhees. With a worse swing.

Why would they DFA somebody already on the DL? They would still need to make the corresponding roster move on the 25 man roster.

We knew Mark Sweeney wasn't going anywhere after his one double.

The roommates' lives changed quite a bit from yesterday.

670 I like this quote from the snakepit: but it is rather silly that they'll have to sit their last two big FA signings on the bench to put out the best lineup

I'm cautiously optimistic on this trade. Being a World Series contender is dependent on a ton of luck on the rest of the season, most notably how Penny, Nomar, Raffy, and Sammy turn out. The window is there though.

Its obviously horrible if we miss the playoffs. But to be frolicking into the playoffs as a fringe team and flame out and have the season be considered a "success" and then keep Colletti? ugh. I was already envisioning an organization with Logan White at the helm. I swear, bad management is like spyware for this franchise.

Title or nothing with this trade.

676 - DY is on the DL. Lots of time between now and when he comes off, isn't there?

I hate to give up LaRoche, too, especially after giving him virtually no chance to succeed at third, but this is Manny Freaking Ramirez we are talking about, people. Not Huston Street. Not Jack Wilson. Not Jhonny Peralta. Or Arthur Rhodes.

This is going to be really, really fun.

Notes from Ned:

Theo reached out to Ned mid-morning to gauge interest and it took a couple of hours. That's it. It wasn't on the board for very long. Before today the last time he talked to Theo was two weeks ago.

On of the best hitters of this generation from the right side is coming in.

Manny is thrilled to be a Dodger.

Ned hasn't talked to Pierre and leaves the playing decisions up to Torre.

I think this is probably just an example of Tony Jackson not thinking through the problem coherently. Not only is young not using a 25-man roster spot, I think he can't be DFAed right now anyway, as he's not eligible to come off the DL yet. (Right?)

40-man space is not an issue since LaRoche is gone.

DY may well get DFAed two weeks from now, but there's no reason whatsoever for it to happen right now. My feeling is that his "injury" will linger until mid-August or so, then he'll max out his rehab time in Vegas, and then on Sept. 1 he'll magically be healthy again.

691 - What he said. Off to the game.

underdog, if you're really interested in blog moderation, here's a piece with a lot of good thoughts on the subject.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/67ytey

675 Tommy.

Please let it be Sweeney...

690 So either Ned's lying about talking to the Bo Sox until today, or guys like Heyman, and Rosenthal are punks who make up crap just to pick on the Dodgers.

696 I would bet it's both.

570 I know what you mean Zak. But if they don't get it right, it could be someone's butt.
And as much as I wanted a whole Dodger team to grow up together, including third base, now we have a situation where baseballs ridiculous economics favor the Dodgers, and I am loving it. I think Manny and Boras are expecting a big 4 year contract next year, but I sense that things are changing. Manny wil be 36(or 37) next year and I think they may only get an offer like Jones got. If they want a big payday, he's got to rake the next two months and show how much he loves baseball.

696 It could also be none of the above. Most preliminary trade talks are handled by assistant GMs. Ned only said HE didn't talk to Theo until today.

Kent is nursing some little leg thing, and Ethier is sick - Tony Jackon.

Yay, Torre hasn't lost his marbles today. He's just forced to play a bad lineup.

LF Pierre
RF Kemp
C Martin
1B Loney
3B Blake
CF Jones
SS Berroa
2B Ozuna
RH Lowe

Kent is nursing some little leg thing, and Ethier is sick - Tony Jackon.

Yay, Torre hasn't lost his marbles today. He's just forced to play a bad lineup.

LF Pierre
RF Kemp
C Martin
1B Loney
3B Blake
CF Jones
SS Berroa
2B Ozuna
RH Lowe

TJ says Ethier is sick tonight.

I also love the way ESPN is showing the new Dodger line-up with Manny Kemp and Ethier.

Sweeney is probably hoping like crazy that Nomar decides to go on the DL.

Keith Law says it better than me: The move makes the Dodgers slight favorites to win the NL West, assuming that they put the right personnel on the field.

Yep.

Holy cow! The black hole is the biggest part of the line-up.

Diamond: Logan White spoke with Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris, and he said LaRoche was excited to go to Pittsburgh. Asked if White was sad to see LaRoche go, he said, "Not at all."

Even with Sweeney DFA'ed, he'll be back with the Dodgers in Sept. Who the heck is going sign him, even to a minor league contract?

698 I find it interesting that Boras does not take any heat on the Jones contract. Jones could have gotten, I'm totally guessing, $100 for 7 years last offseason. At least $90? Instead he signed for a higher per-year deal and unless he makes a miracle comeback next year, Jones is never going to make that $60 million or so up.

Manny is in a different situation than Jones or Furcal where a small-term contract works against him because of injury concerns, loss of skill, etc. He will seek and get a 4-5 year, $100 million plus deal.

689
That's an excellent summation of how I feel as well.

I love Manny and all his little quirks too. I was excited when the Dodgers hired Grady Little, because I would listen to Little read the phone book, with that slow Southern drawl. I am way more excited about the upcoming 3-month Manny Era.

Yes, I said 3 months.

704 Sweeney and Jones are wondering whether Manny would rather wear 21 or 25.

701 Game against the toughest challenger and that's the line-up? Ugh. Is Manny supposed to arrive at some point during the game? Or not till tomorrow?

I'll guess Manny gets 4 years, 80 million. Just a guess for fun.

Enjoy the game, everybody.

Asked if White was sad to see LaRoche go, he said, "Not at all."

Ouch. Seems like you'd really have to be down on a guy not to say something nice in that situation.

Aha, Ethier is sick. Everything is right with the world. Except that lineup, eek.

709 So did the Dodgers have to decline his options in order for him to waive his no trade clause?

709
There's no way Jones had any long term offers on the table after the season he had last year. The only other concrete offer was by Kansas City, and it was a 2- or 3-year deal.

Pee Wee is out of Options right? so that means, if Sweeney stays, then DY becomes a Padre and knocks the Dodgers out of the hunt with a key RBI double while batting 330 for the Friars.

710 There is little doubt that trading for Manny takes so much focus off the Angels for their trade for that Mark something guy. All of LA is buzzing about this and if the Dodgers play well over the next couple of weeks, you'll see Dodgers interest soar in LA. That alone makes this a good deal for McCourt and Ned. Manny gets the fans excited, good or bad. Radio shows are excited, national shows coverage, etc. etc. And he genuinely improves the Dodgers at least this year.

I'll believe Ethier's sick when Andre says so himself.

718 - There is no way that the Dodgers will cut loose Young less than a month before rosters expand. They'll find a way to keep him.

New post coming up top.

717 That is what I was afraid of.. so the Dodgers kinda bid against themselves to end up giving him $18 mill? Hence my question in 603

711 Sweeney loves to give up his number. He's a professional gamer.