Congrats to Andy LaRoche on finally getting a chance to begin his career.

The Webb game was pretty much the reason why we had to trade for Manny when we had the chance. The D'Backs would be crapping their pants if they had to face Manny instead of Andruw Jones.

It will be a very different Dodger team tomorrow night. Oh boy oh boy oh boy!

Tomorrow night: madhouse. Brings back memories of this game I foolishly left early: http://tinyurl.com/bigcpaleftearly

Assuming Nomar is still out for tomorrow, I find it interesting in a weird way that the Dodger lineup will likely feature three players the Dodgers are paying exactly $0 this season (Blake, Berroa, Manny).

4
I'm shocked that tinyurl was available! :)

3 Well, it will have Manny but I just don't know if Kemp and Ethier will ever start a game together for the rest of the year.

And if Pierre and Manny start a game together, whoever else is playing better drink a lot of coffee that day.

I spent a lot of time online today and one thing is clear: this is by far the most intelligent, informative baseball blog on the web. The discussion was thoughtful, answered all my questions and many I hadn't even thought of. Thanks all.

You are right Jon, it has been a good day.

July is gone and August arrives with many reasons for hope in Dodgerland.

The starting and relief pitching have been fantastic and the offense finally has a chance to produce the kind of runs that make winning easy, given how our arms have been performing. Kemp is starting, Manny is in Dodger blue, Martin is Martin, and I believe Ethier will secure his place in the lineup in the coming days.

Martin
Ethier
Kemp
Manny
Loney
Kent
Black
Berroa
Pitcher

Fellas, that is pretty darn good. Things have not been perfect this year, or close to it, but when have they ever been? Let's agree on the notion that the Dodgers finally are ready to make some noise, specifically the kind of noise that brings a smiles to fans faces. It's going to be a fun couple of months.

7 - I will bet you any amount of money that Kemp and Ethier will start another game together this year, and I'll bet you some amount of money that it will happen in the next week.

woops, Blake

10

I need odds!

Just some levity.

"The movie or the planet?"

"And you are starring ... as the human."

"It's the part I was born to play baby!"

"I hate every ape I see from Chimp-pan-a to Chimp-pan-zee."

"Oh my god, I was wrong. It was earth all along."

"Down in front!"

I'm excited about our young, defense-first team in 2009.

1B Loney
2B DeJesus
SS Hu
3B DeWitt
LF Pierre
CF Kemp
RF Ethier

Go hardcore with pitching (money from all the expiring contracts should go to Sabathia and Sheets). Decline Penny's option.

Sabathia
Billingsley
Sheets
Kershaw
Kuroda

i'm just bummed that i was without a connection today. made it rather difficult to know what was going on.

14 That rotation would be unreal.

10 I will give you a dollar for every game they start togetherr from tomorrow until the DT picnic. I hope comes to double digits.

And this only goes for Jon, I don't want any other DTers asking for money that day, it is enought that I am making breakfast.

1 Amen.

Manny-Kemp-Ethier just makes too much sense to occur on a regular basis. Ethier I fear will sit the majority of the time, supplanting Manny here and there. Jones is a non-factor, and has been all season, but I imagine Torre will look to get him AB's.

15 I think underdog will be at the game next Friday at AT&T.

13 - that was such a great episode.

I don't think Torre is going to feel comfortable playing Pierre in center. He chose Kemp over Pierre in center for a reason. I really think Pierre is going to lose significant time. Manny is going to play left field. Torre would have to choose to play Pierre over Kemp in center with left field now hereby known as Mannyland. I just don't see it happening.

From the Manny scouting report: "2. If you look at the players on the Dodgers roster and their contract situations...this is really their last chance. The Dodgers should be going into full-blown rebuilding mode after this year."

That's pretty harsh.

14, That would be exciting but no way we sign both CC and Sheets and I doubt we won't sign at least one FA bat.

20 - i confirmed that i will be in SF next weekend, i just don't know what i'm going to be doing when i get there.

game is still an option.

19 Can you imagine this graphic on the Fox game of the week.

~$800K (Manny, Kemp, Ethier)

Sitting on the bench - ~$27M (Pierre, Jones).

7
To answer your question from previous thread:

I said earlier that I think Kim and Logan are no longer free from criticism. If we make a change in management, I want a complete change.

14

I don't think Dejesus is going to be ready to start next year.

1b Loney
2b Hu
ss Furcal (1 year deal)
3b Dewitt
RF Ethier
CF Kemp
LF Manny

I have no idea what happens to Jones and Pierre but that team isn't that expensive and should be defensively sufficient enough.

22. I have to agree with you there! Pierre and Manny would make the worst combo of outfielders.

26 You mean none of them deserve DeWayne Walker status?

An aside to trainwreck, I saw Coach Walker in June and he told me how taken aback he was by all the support he got from everyone.

I'll be at some of the practices next week so I'll you posted on what is going there.

23 - last chance? wha?

Aren't the Dodgers in a position to be contenders for a decade? Kemp, Martin, Loney, Ethier, Billingsly, Kershaw, Broxton - that sounds like a pretty solid core of guys to build around.

I think the better analysis is that the team has done pretty much all it can with respect to building from within and now must build through free agency. There's still a chance for Hu, DeJesus, or DeWitt to become part of the core, but not all of them (one likely). Time for better decisions on the free agency front.

After thinking a lot about this trade, a trade my gut told me was terrible for the Dodgers from the start, I decided some math was in order.

The problem with that, however, is that the sample size for the remainder of the season is so small that a "net-wins" analysis is far more likely to be wrong than right (in either direction). What we need is beyond me, other than to say that as I thought it out, that we need it is further evidence of how awful this trade is.

Basically, long term, what we did was trade LaRoche and Morris for two top-50 draft picks. That is a trade that is clearly stupid.

The remainder of the trade is some increased probability of winning our division this year. As we stand today, before the trade and before tonight's loss, we had a 35ish% chance to make the playoffs (for the Dodgers, making the playoffs and winning the division are so close to the same thing as to consider them identical). So, what will our probability be tomorrow, before the game starts? I don't know. The math is beyond me. What I do feel, however, is that it just can't be that great an amount.

I also feel very certain that by merely playing the right players (forget all year - just start doing it now) would have meant more than the acquisitions of Blake and Ramirez. There is a substantial possibility that the Ramirez acquisition could mean very little (assume he replaces Either) and certainly a non-zero chance that it hurt us (assume he replaces Either day-to-day and several more games are Ramirez-Jones-Pierre).

Given what Torre has shown us all year, I don't see how the conclusion can be that the right choices will be made. But, even if they are, I just don't see this move as likely to move us from 35% to 60+% to make the playoffs. Maybe someone more capable can do the math and convince me I am wrong.

22

Don't forget Blake and Kent in the infield.

Manny-Pierre OF.

Atrocious.

27 - I could live with that line up. I hear Cincinatti might be looking for an outfielder next year...

29
Sweet, thanks. DeWayne's not long for UCLA, so we got to appreciate him while we can. Same for Chow obviously. Hopefully they can lay down the foundation for the future.

Assuming we pick up Penny's option, $55.75M is owed to Jones, Schmidt, Kuroda, Penny and Pierre in 2009.

Plus $4 million for Joe Torre.

We really know how to waste money.

33 Cincy still got to pay Adam Dunn, and I doubt Manny would want to go to the Reds, the guy's been incredible successful, playing for some really great teams that are either in the playoffs, or in the world series. Even Manny must know that the Reds don't go to the playoffs, they just go to the back of the line.

Don't forget the $4m due Furcal in January 2009 (signing bonus), plus the $1.25m due Nomar in each of the next 2 seasons (also signing bonus)!

37

I think he meant for a spot for Jones or Pierre..

If Manny is a sure thing to start in LF (which he is). Then this Ethier vs Pierre for the 3rd OF spot, would mean that Kemp would have to go to RF on games that Pierre started. I can't imagine for the life of me, Juan Pierre and his weak arm, starting in RF. And if Jones gets the occasional start in CF, then Pierre has no spot to play in those games too.
vr, Xei

If Manny was traded last trading deadline, he would have had close to the same amount of PAs in both Cleveland & Boston. He's been a remarkably and consistently great hitter his whole career:

w/Cleveland (1993-2000)
4095 PA, .313/.407/.592, 152 OPS+

w/Boston (2001-2008)
4682 PA, .312/.411/.588, 155 OPS+

40 - Exactly.

Manny/Kemp/Ethier

OR

Manny/Jones/Kemp

OR

Manny/Pierre/Kemp (though starting Pierre over Kemp in center is a terrible idea)

The only way Pierre plays with Manny in the lineup is in center field.

31 You're pretty cheerful. Even if you liked LaRoche, and feel that he should be the 3rd baseman of the future, he wasn't trusted by the current staff for whatever reason. (Personally, I think his whining his way back up to the Dodgers after his rehab stint hurt his stock with Torre. LaRoche didn't handle that as a Team First kinda way, he handled it pretty selfishly, even if it was his right to complain he wasn't on the roster, but I'm sure that pissed off Torre enough that he just stuck with DeWitt until had to swap him for LaRoche for a couple of games, and then Casey Blake.)

We can talk about stats, and all that, but the reality is that 'playing the right players'(who I assume you mean the majority of the younger players) wasn't going to happen. Management would never allow that to happen unless massive injuries happened to all the Vets on the team like Kent, and Pierre, and even then, they would go sign a vet from the scrap heap like Ozuna, and Berroa. Getting Manny means that this current team is greatly improved that what it was 24 ago, and he instantly becomes our best player. Yes, even Matt Kemp who I love, but is still only 23 and might actually learn a thing or two to become a better player from one of the best in Manny.

But to say this trade was stupid just because you want to simplified the trade for LaRoche, and Morris for Two draft picks, that is your precognitive. But you're seriously underrating the impact Manny has on this team, and might have on future years since McCourt has shown he is a huge spender in the offseason. McCourt is the same owner who allow Ned Coletti to give Andruw Jones a $36 million contract, Juan Pierre $54 million, Jason Schimdt $39 million. And McCourt doesn't even like those guys. McCourt's still a Red Sox fan at heart and with Manny's he's going to vote with his heart. He's going to pay Manny whatever he wants. Anyway, that's my two sense.

Numbers for Manny to live up to:

Bill Madlock, 1985
34 G, .360/.422/.447, 147 OPS+ Dodgers are 22-13 when he starts

Steve Finley, 2004
58 G, .263/.324/.491, 112 OPS+, 13 HR, 46 RBI, Division-winning slam

Marlon Anderson, 2006
25 G, .375/.431/.813, 208 OPS+, 7 HR, "The Marlon Anderson Game" (before it got renamed)

43
Personally, I think his whining his way back up to the Dodgers after his rehab stint hurt his stock with Torre

When did LaRoche do this? He never bashed the organization in interviews, and for the most part said all the right things when asked about his demotion.

He earned his way back to the club by hitting in AAA.

I'm surprised no one typed witness to my bet with Jon.

And no, you will not get a percentage.

44 I caught a foul ball from Bill Madlock.

46
Well, it's out there on the interwebs now, unless of course Bob comes along and deletes it, vigilante that he is.

43 I wouldn't be noting my inability to calculate the full value of the trade if I, as you claim, simplified it to LaRoche and Morris for two draft picks. I note that it is that (something I hope everyone would agree would be stupid) PLUS some increase in our chances to make the playoffs this year. I am incapable of quantifying the plus.

45 And then he complained that he was healthy in Triple A, and was wondering why he wasn't called up. Maybe I'm not remembering it the right way, and I'm trying to find the Dodgers report in the Times that talk about this. I'm not saying that it wasn't in his right to question why he wasn't called up, but I gotta say it was the wrong play for him if he wanted to A) play everyday, and B) Get on Torre's good side which he never seemed to do.

Personally, I think his whining his way back up to the Dodgers after his rehab stint hurt his stock with Torre

If that's true, then Joe Torre is a little girl.

In a frilly pink dress.

50 Who are we talking about?

31. That's basically how I feel about the trade, and what I tried to say in the pre-game threads.

Of course, to actually explain the decision, in addition to allowing for the possibility that Colletti et al., way overestimate the marginal 2008 on-field impact of Ramirez, you have to consider:

1. The marginal impact on butts-in-seats, and the attendant concessions, parking, etc.

2. The marginal impact on Colletti's future stream of income, either from McCourt or Peter McGowan, or whomever.

Both of those numbers are big, I would imagine, or at least perceived to be big, which would explain, if not excuse the decision.

Colletti made the 3rd base decision Torre-proof with the Casey Blake pickup and LaRoche demotion/exile. But he really screwed up the OF choice set, and increased the probability that Torre will choose to leave win shares on the bench. And like you, I have no faith that Torre will avoid the mistake of wasting one third of the outfield at-bats.

Don't get me wrong - I'm very excited to see Ramirez bat as a Dodger. But then I enjoyed having Sheffield here. I love to watch great hitters hit. But I still think this was a mistake, unless they dump Pierre AND Jones this winter and play them precious little between now and then.

I'm also going to root very hard for Andy LaRoche in Pittsburgh. Who knows - maybe we'll take him back as a free agent once he's all veterany and stuff.

50 I'm not sure its productive to go down this road regardless of whether Andy LaRoche said anything or not.

The key thing is that Pittsburgh felt that he and Morris were enough when addded to Boston's prospects to give up Bay.

Jayson Stark's early review of this deal is that Pittsburgh again went with quantity if not a big sure thing prospect after talking to other scouts. I will repeat what I have said about Andy for months now, if we cannot take his work in the minors and rely upon that for any kind of prediction in how he will do in majors than we should just promote guys straight out of Rookie Ball because Andy had the best work than the guys who remain in Dodger Blue today.

That is why there is some concern about the deal.

That said, given all the alternatives, if you are going to get a 2 month rental, the price was reasonable and you can't really dispute Manny's credentials. But even when they produce like Teixeira did for Atlanta, that doesn't mean you will achieve your ultimate goal.

And that is how this deal will be measured since Manny will be gone the second the last out of the Dodger season is made.

I don't really think Joe Torre is a girl. My theory is that Torre doesn't think Andy LaRoche is good at baseball. I think he's wrong about that. But I don't think he would sit a player he thought was better because of nebulous personal problems he would have had to strain to invent. He's a professional baseball manager. It's his job to field the best team available to him. I think he did that, to the best of his judgment.

55. Yeah, unfortunately, I think you're right.

Do we DL Nomar tomorrow or send a pitcher down with an off day on Monday? I think we want a stacked pen for the next three games.

When was Nomar's last game? He has to sit out 15 days after that. We can always bring up Hu on Tuesday and send a pitcher down then until Nomar is ready but then we are left with the same dilemma.

It was interesting to see Martin at third and Blake at second. Those kind of moves could leave Ozuna out of a job if Nomar is really ready to go soon. But we can't count on his health for sixty days, can we?

Does someone like Jones develop a phantom injury and then has to rehab in Vegas until the end of August?

Lost in all of this is what to do with Delwyn when he comes off the DL. He is out of options. Does he get traded for Maddux or Jack Wilson or David Eckstein or just DFA'd?

55 I will always view it as he showed patience with a young player that had the confidence of a new coaching staff that had nothing to compare against since LaRoche got hurt in ST.

It was always hard for me to say push DeWitt out because really if he was one of the other guys (and mean any of them), everyone here would be pleased that the management was giving him time to work things out.

It didn't happen and once they went another way, they sent DeWitt down to play everyday.

LaRoche never got that opportunity that I think this staff was ready to give him back in ST. That's unfortunate but because his value remained high, the Dodgers did not have to give up one of their young regulars nor a better lower level prospect than Morris.

I'm also not sure I see why it would be okay to sit one of Pierre or Jones, but not both. Once you decide you can (must, even) sit a big money player, you've broken the taboo of doing it. What's left to keep you from sitting them both?

57 Or Delwyn could just stay on the DL until September 1st.

I think that is the most likely thing.

Surreal.

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=120903

And there are currently 26 players on the active roster.

Sweeney's OPS is up to .364!

60 The prolonged nonsense phantom injuries are common in the NBA, but it is more rare in MLB. First Sweeney, now Delwyn. Can we really keep him on the DL until Sept 1st and then activate him? I hope you're right but it seems to be really bending the rules a bit.

61 They could put Nomar on the DL, call up Hu and DFA Ozuna, I think Sweeney stays for now. I think with 3 starters that you don't know what you'll get, Joe won't feel comfortable with only 11 on his staff.

59 They have the excuse that Juan Pierre's playing fairly well since he came off the DL, and they might actually talk themselves into it.

63 Its an oblique, I mean he said it still hurt when he did the chat. Why not drag it out, I mean they do have at least 2 outfielders who will be on the bench already.

And you don't want to risk that type of injury anyway. A bad swing can reaggravate it.

Not everyone is happy with what went down today, but I hope most of you who participated enjoyed coming here to talk about it.

I enjoyed it all ... up until 541 & 542 of the previous thread. I'd hope both the comments and author get deleted soon. There has to be a violation or seven in there somewhere.

58- I know. And it's a perfectly respectable opinion. I thought it was an imprudent patience, and I think it's had pretty ugly consequences, but it's over now, so, there you go.

Also, I'm a D'backs fan, so, I'm happy LaRoche is out of the division. I just wish you'd had to give up Kershaw, too.

From rotoworld.com

Nationals released catcher Paul Lo Duca.
Lo Duca, who was given a $5 million contract over the winter, hit .230/.301/.281 in 139 at-bats for the Nationals. While there was no interest in him at his current salary, he figures to be pretty popular once he becomes available for the minimum. The Astros, Dodgers and Reds could consider him.

Because we need a no power slug like Lo Duca again.

67 Its a violation of rule one.

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity

69 tinyurl.com/heartANDsoul

70 ... and at least 3, 6, 7 and 8.

54,
How do you know we won't resign Manny?

I miss Andy. Even though he would have more pop if he changed his name to Andrew. But, I still miss him.

But since I was so negative at the report of the trade, I will try to be positive and hope we can win a playoff series and justify trading him away. I like Manny Ramirez, even if he is lazier than I am.

All I want is Joe to start the right outfield and I will give Ned & Co. leeway for a bit. I am willing to be reasonable for a little bit, so the ball is in your court Dodgers. Please do not let me down, like you have pretty much done the entire time that I can remember being on this planet.

69

Hey Lo Duca could be Martin's caddy. Ardoin seems to actually know how to play defense so I'm in no rush to see it, but it would make a nice little story for Mr. "heart and soul" to come back and finish his career here mentoring the next heart and soul of the Dodgers. That of course assumes he's willing to accept being a backup, and doesn't hate us over the trade.

Lo Duca's previous mentoring experience is the sort of thing that could have gotten him some prison time. It might be time for him to write his memoirs. I just hope he's diligent in checking the ages of his research assistants.

Also speaking of DL shenanigans, it looks like we've made Gary Bennett go away somehow. Not that I'm complaining.

I asked Leung to give the context of White's response, and Leung replied that White meant in terms of "Look who we got back."

To me, that doesn't really dispose of the issue. Of course White's excited to get Ramirez. We never doubted that.

The point is that he says nothing positive about Andy. Normally in these situations someone in White's position would say something like, "Yes, we're sorry to see Andy go, but we're excited to get Ramirez." The way it is, I gotta think White has something personal against LaRoche.

Imagine if White had said "Not at all" about Kershaw, or Billingsley, or Kemp.

74 Jones' comments suggest that he knows he's the oddest man out. With Torre, I expect both Ethier and JP to get starts, but Ethier needs to get the most.

75 There was a time I would have agreed. But that time is past.

77 Thank goodness.

78 -- But when executives say things like "We're sorry to see him go," aren't they in PR mode? If it were a formal interview, White probably would have put some thought into how he wanted to be quoted. I think Leung very informally asked White a question, in passing, and White just said what popped into mind. And I think White knew that Torre and Colletti liked DeWitt better than LaRoche, and he knew LaRoche really had no future in our organization under Torre and Colletti, so why not be glad LaRoche is going to get to play everyday in the majors?

We can't read White's mind. What we know is that Andy was blocked for whatever reason, good or bad, and he gets a new chance in Pittsburgh next to his brother. I hope he becomes an All-Star and has a great career. Time will tell.

67 - Sorry - I didn't see those. Deleted/banned now.

Seems to me that there were two separate questions.

1. Are you sad to see LaRoche go?

2. Are you happy to get Ramirez?

White was asked #1, but essentially responded to #2.

The trade just got better. Plaschke said LaRoche wasn't one of the Dodgers' top prospects.

84 Plaschke still thinks Kemp and Ethier are prospects.

I hope most of you who participated enjoyed coming here to talk about it.

Not to get overly fawning and all but I can't imagine a day without DT. It has become such an integral part of my day, largely because of the comments. I don't comment as much, partially due to the job but also because I have so much fun reading the comments. The quality of the comments stems from the tone the host has set. For me, it's like DT day on a daily basis.

Trades and Salary Dumps

1) Ned puts JP up for trade, even if it means eating some salary. WHo knows, maybe someone picks him up off the waver wire.

2) Jones..well just unconditionally release him and see if some team will pick him up, a .168 batting average is just not worth keeping his spot on the 25 man roster.

With JP gone and Jones gone, the outfield is in balance.

Nonetheless, Jones it was, on the day that his $36.2 million signing officially became a failure.

Jones was a failure way before last night's game.

Seems like an awful lot of to do over three words.

(82)

I also found the post to be out of line ; so, thanks Jon

87 - I feel that the context makes it clear what I was saying.

88
But that's just it: 3 words weren't very many.

Maybe White was tired. I was completely exhausted yesterday.

These deals basically come down to this:

The Dodgers dealt: Meloan, Santana, LaRoche, Morris

Dodgers received: 2 months of Manny + Blake, & draft picks.

If the team doesnt make the playoffs, its a failure. Giving up 2 very high end prospects (LaRoche/Santana) for rentals is not good business.

White better make the most of the extra picks to make sure these trades dont become disastrous.

92
IMO, the possibility that he was tired and didn't have time to be political or tactful in his response only makes his response seem more honest and unfiltered. In other words, he said what he really felt.

Did you know that if you (accidentally) hit "Esc", it will clear anything you've typed in the Toaster's text entry window? Including a several-hundred word post that took 20 minutes to compose offering yet another opinion on yesterday's trade?

I can't type it all again. Suffice to say, I still object in principle to trading prospects for rentals. I really hope Manny leads the Dodgers to a World Series title this year, because anything less turns the trade into a failure from the standpoint of both team experience and opportunity cost.

I'm still trying to figure why people care so much what Logan White said off the top of his head to a reporter about Andy LaRoche.

96 (shrugs) There's a typo on the Griddle.

97
A. Why don't you email me with what it is?
B. Why don't you leave it in a comment over there?

But I found it.

I'm tired and wasn't thinking.

96
I think I'm the only one who cares, and even I don't care that much.

I've always tried to figure out whether and why Management was so down on Andy and never considered him a "top prospect". I don't doubt they were unimpressed with his MLB performance, but I always felt there was something more to it than that. Various comments from Management about "honest at-bats", "following directions," "doing what you're told," "working hard", etc. etc. etc. always seemed to implicitly implicate Andy for reasons that I've never understood.

The only thing I really know about is the issue of LaRoche not doing his back exercises or whatever. I don't blame Management for being annoyed about that, because, frankly, I was annoyed too.

White's comment made it clear (to me, but apparently no one else) that even he (the one Management person I would have expected to actually support Andy) was essentially glad to get rid of the guy.

100
It's OK. Why do you think I made the typo to begin with?

96 Probably just anti-White sentiment. Some (me included) think White has been set on a pedestal and that pedestal has been used to validate some of Colletti's stupid moves (usually with the line "White must have thought those prospects weren't that good, so who cares if we traded them for next to nothing.")

I don't particularly care for him getting blasted on what I would consider a non-issue, but since so few seem willing to blast him for his general competence, I'll enjoy him getting some heat over it (even if only in the blogoshpere for now).

103
I don't know enough about White to be fer'im or agin'im.

Somewhere within those 2000 comments, it was interesting to hear Tony Abreu's name mentioned. I had completely forgotten about him.

104 I'm against him. What more is there to know? ;)

93 , 96

Here's an interesting question. What happens if the Dodgers play sub .500 ball the rest of the way? Would this be a good reason to fire NedCo? Putting all the eggs in one basket, only to tank and not even make the playoffs?

I wasn't sure. I was thinking that Frank loved yesterday's trade so much that Ned got his extension right then and there.

106
Well, in that case...

106 May I ask why?

I mean... when the trade happened, my initial thought was "Ned is slowly destroying our farm system, piece by piece."

But, as others noted, if there was ever a time to get the impact player, now is it. We now have 2-5 regular players on our team that have blossomed from our farm. When these rentals depart, we'll still have them. Kemp, Ethier, Martin, Billingsley, and Kershaw aren't going anywhere. So I think overall I'm happy provided that either Pierre or 'Druw don't play as little as possible or they're traded.

101 -- "...essentially glad to get rid of the guy." Oh, come on. I can't recall a more unfair, over-dramatic inference being made from three unbelievably vague and fairly innocuous words.

To get Quality, you have to give up Quality.

I'm sure McCourt is not happy with the way Ned has wasted the 120+ mil for this year. Because of that I think Ned is done even if we make the WS.

And even though all that money has been wasted, the Dodgers are still in a position to make the post season.

The addition of these two players (at no cost this year, other than prospects) makes this team significantly better for this year's run.

I liked LaRoache, and think he will be a very good player.

As for next year...well, that's next year.

Have to go, be back in a few hours

The Manny trade is nice, but it makes me wonder. If Ned did his job competently, would the Dodgers have to trade to be contenders in the NL West?

And how many prospects has Ned traded, and what players will the Dodgers have after this season left over from these trades?

2009 Dodgers:

C- Martin
1b- Loney
2b- ????
SS- ????
3b- Blake
LF- Pierre
CF- Jones
RF- Kemp

114

Blake DeWitt or Casey Blake?

I am unaware if this has been discussed regarding the trade (considering how many post, I am guessing it must have come up) but does anyone here happen to know approximately how much revenue is generated by a playoff appearance or even better by a playoff game? Losing Andy hurts a lot less if the team is able to get an additional $20 Million of income to replace him with, and that possible revenue has to be considered when evaluating the deal.

106 Sure.

1. Bias. He has replaced Ng as the Colletti replacement. I expect he and Colletti are fairly close in mindset on who to select players (e.g. by instinct), though his instincts are probably better than Ned's.

2. Ned's shield. Ned and posters on this and other blogs have used White's 2002 and 2003 luck/skill (could be skill, but it has yet to repeat itself in the last 4 drafts) to shield Colletti from as harsh a criticism as he deserves. The flip side of that is that if White had as much influence as it appears/is claimed, then he is as stupid as Colletti for our transactions the last three years.

3. Hochevar. He drafted him twice - no idea why given that his clear and reasonable demands were not going to be met by the Dodgers. Did it happen to work out great for us (Kershaw)? Yes. Was there anyway to predict that? No.

There are others, but those are the big three.

I'm sorry if it's been asked, but....

Is Andy going to be on Pittsburgh's major league roster? Is he going to start over Bautista this season?

D4P would have made a good staff member for the House UnAmerican Activities Committee, the way he's over-interpreting White's answer.

Maybe the problem here was the question, not the answer.

"Are you sad?"

NO! I'm a MAN! I'm 40! There's no CRYING in BASEBALL!

My theory is that D4P is just bored. Finished his dissertation, got a job for the Fall (public congratulations!), and just looking for a fight. It's a phase. In no time, he'll be back to his old self, accusing 150 shortstops of steroid use.

117 I think point #2 should be divided into 2a and 2b, with 2b starting at "the flip side."

And in that formulation, I'd say that 1 is reasonable, 2b is fair, and 3 is a good point as well.

But I wouldn't hold 2a against him. That's about others' perceptions of the situation, not about White himself.

Uh, 119 was supposed to finish with "150-lb shortstops," but I think it might be funnier with the typo, since we can infer "small" from "shortstop" most of the time.

Where's that coffee?

On the Pirates web site, regarding Andy;

"He has some holes," one scout said. "He loaded up on several guys when I saw him except when he came up against a guy who knew how to pitch. He's at the very least a platoon type of guy. He's got some pop and some gap power but he has holes. If they play him against lefties, though, he can probably help.

"I think he'll rack it up against fourth and fifth starters and struggle against the better pitchers. I liked him until he went up against someone who knows how to pitch a little. He's a big league player, but is he an everyday player? No. I think he's overrated."

The second scout said that he thought it was "hard to tell with his wing whether he would be productive." Still, he added that he liked him and that maybe it was just taking longer for him to develop.

Quick thought on The Trade. There's been some speculation that Manny might mail it in for the next two months but I'm not buying it. By demanding that the club option in his contract be dropped he has basically pushed all of his chips in the middle. His performance over the next couple months will have a huge impact on his next contract and I think he will be focused in to prove his worth.

In no time, he'll be back to his old self, accusing 150 shortstops of steroid use

Or dreadlocked leftfielders.

Speaking of which, has there been any word on a roster move to accommodate Samson? Sweeney's presumably not going anywhere, whilst in the midst of a 2-game hitting streak...

117.

1. There is no evidence that Colletti and White agree on how to select players, and every reason to believe that they don't. Colletti has a veteran fetish. White's job is all about projecting what young players will do in the future. One attitude is backward looking, the other is inherently forward looking.

2. White's 2002-03 drafts have been used by people here to shield Colletti? That is more gobbledygook than accusation. White's influence extends to our prospects and prospect scouting. There is no evidence that Colletti consults with White on his transactions involving only major leaguers.

3. You apparently are just not aware that White drafted Hochevar in 2005 simply because DePodesta ordered him to. A source has indicated that if DePodesta had not been fired White was going to resign because of DePo's interfering with what was supposed to be White's job.

124 Nothing yet, but it's too bad Manny can't play short, because if Nomar's out much longer I wouldn't mind someone better than Berroa filling in for him. We could see two moves coming -- one to make room for ManRam and the other retroactively DL-ing Nomar and bringing up Hu. If Nomar isn't about ready to come back, that is. For Manny they may send down a pitcher like Troncoso.

(PS: Anyone think it kind of weird that there's no post about the Manny trade on the ItD official blog?)

125 if 3 is true, then firing DePo was an even bigger mistake than I thought.

One of the Pirates reporters posted that: "Hansen, Moss and LaRoche will all be on the roster for today's game, while {Bryan} Morris will report to Class-A Hickory."

I think this was a great trade, and maybe even a bargain. For reference, I think many would say the Angels underpaid to get Texiera, and we paid less and got a better player.

It's certainly fair to argue against the approach/philosophy the team has taken to "go for it" while giving up some of the future. But given the philosophy, I'm happy with the price we paid, so I've got to give Colletti his due.

To illustrate my point, suppose a guy, making 40K/year goes out and pays $100,000 for a new Ferrari so he can drive in style. If he were your friend you might advise against the purchase, but you've at least got to appreciate his being able to get the car at that price.

sweet, sirius and xm have completed their merger. which means i'll be able to get baseball games on my sirius receiver now. hopefully.

124
I just can't see any other move unless we get rid of one of the Berroa/Ozuna tandem.

127 -- Care to explain that bit of illogic? What I said is true, and it makes it entirely appropriate that DePodesta was fired. GM's dictating draft picks is an example of irrational micro-managing. That is the general principle, and DePo's particular foolishness was in ordering the drafting of a player whose $5 million price tag couldn't be accommodated by what the team owner was willing to spend, leading to the pick being completely wasted.

130. Hopefully by the start of next season you'll be able to listen to baseball on Sirius.

124
The more I think about it, the more I think we need to make a couple of moves. DFA Berroa and bring up Hu. DFA Sweeney to bring in Manny. If Nomar doesn't go on the DL, we have 3 possibles at SS, two at third, and 3 at 2b.

I wonder just how long they will pay Andruw this and next season when Repko could provide 95% of the defense with better speed and a better bat. I could see Mr. Jones being gone by next May 15.

The press is not always to be trusted, I grant you, but the story that emerges doesn't suggest a Ned-Logan tag team. Most everything I've read suggests that McCourt hired Torre over Ned's head. The Kuroda deal only came after White's okay. Most everything I've read suggests that White convinced McCourt to kill Ned's proposed Sabathia fire sale. By the same token, most everything I've read suggests that it was McCourt who wanted Manny, that Ned was ready to move Bison or Ethier for him, and that didn't happen. White again? I'll take White over Ned anyday.

132
I don't remember, but isn't there some sort of compensation pick if your draft pick refuses to sign a contract? I thought we got one when he did not sign...

Not disputing either point, but I just can't remember.

136
If your pick doesn't sign with you, dems da breaks.

132--> Probably bc if DePodesta wasnt fired, then White would have re-signed and there'd be a change in the entire minor league philosophy (which could be a good thing).

White's been living off the 02/03 drafts for awhile now.

His work since has not been that great, and the type of players he's been developing (contact, minimal power/patience)--think Dewitt, Loney, Kemp --> and his discarding of higher ceiling power/patience prospects like LaRoche, Santana, Pedroza etc..shows a fundamental flaw in his system of developing difference making offensive players at the MLB level.

Hopefully his 2008 draft signaled a change in that respect.

White's offensive philosophy appears to be very similar to Ned's, in that White values batting average, contact, speed, tools over production, power, patience.

White's developed Billingsley exceptionally well.
Kershaw is a work in progress.
Broxton is a guy that succeeded, but has not met his potential. I look at Joba, and think that is what Broxton should be doing. He's not.

I definitely think White is put on a pedestal by some here. But he's not teflon.

135
I can't figure out if it is a good thing or a bad thing for her that Kim Ng never seems to get caught up in this stuff when the media talks about it. I wonder if that indicates that she is somehow the glue holding the Colletti/White/McCourt dysfunction together or if it means that she is on the outside of negotiations like this.

A source has indicated that if DePodesta had not been fired White was going to resign because of DePo's interfering with what was supposed to be White's job.

Canuck, you seem to bring this point up everytime you dont agree with a Logan White pick.

The 2008 draft was more college heavy than either 2004/2005 draft under DePo.

Whom was trying to do White's job this past year then?

138
I tend to disagree with the Broxton comment. How can you fault anyone with Broxton not meeting his potential?

He is 24, so by definition, he has not peaked yet.
He has been handled such that his arm is healthy,
He has an average ERA+ of 148 with a 11.3 K/9 average and a 3.25:1 K:BB rate.

Just when will you define that his potential has been met?

132 - 138 sums it up pretty well. (Excepting his comments on Broxton, with which I do not agree.)

Whether or not Hochevar was a good pick, the two sides did agree on a $2.98m bonus, but of course Hochevar eventually backed out of that.

I guess since the contract wasn't executed, they didn't "agree", but I don't think the sides were too far apart. After Hochevar reneged (per Boras), White and the Dodgers held firm on their offer just on principle.

Jim Rome's been hilarious this morning when talking about Manny. If you get a chance to hear a repeat later, do so.

He's about as excited to see him tonight as can be - even said he hasn't been this excited since his wedding day or some such nonsense. He also said "kudos to Colletti for pulling this off, probably saved his job, but they didn't have to do much to make it happen. The Red Sox basically gave them Manny." He predicted Manny wouldn't pull any of the same stuff he'd pulled in Boston, as others here have said, because he's playing for his next contract. (Which doesn't mean I expect him to be perfect in LF, nope...) Anyway, Rome was like a giddy schoolboy at Christmas.

122

I don't see how they could judge on Andy on Major League PAs when he wasn't playing EVERY DAY. Those scouts have clearly not spent enough time looking at Andy's Minor League TRACK RECORD. I can think of 50 posters on this site who could do a better job than those guys.

"Right now, Andy LaRoche is our third baseman," manager John Russell said this morning.

He's batting fifth this morning against the Cubs.

As an aside, that ownership was not willing to spend $4M (Hochevar's asking price - not the $5M you quote) but was willing to spend $3.5M - making the total at issue a mere $500K - to sign Hochevar but was willing to spend $50M on Pierre is a pretty good indication of how far up the ladder our organizational stupidity runs.

141. I believe what Joey means is that we should have kept Broxton as a starter until he showed he couldn't succeed in that role, and he was doing pretty well as a starter when he was converted to a reliever in Double A. Of course, I'm not sure how one could blame that on White given the fact that DeJon Watson was the head of Minor League player development at the time and we really don't know how much credit / blame White should get for the development of Broxton, Kershaw, or Billingsley since we don't know how much input he has had in their development.

Maybe White doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal but if you compare his drafts to the drafts by almost every other team's scouting dept over the same period, especially given where he drafts positionally each time (as opposed to teams that routinely draft in the top 5 because they stink, and even some of those teams have blown their picks -- I'm looking at you Padres), if you compare, you can see why we think pretty highly of him. Is he perfect and infallible? Of course not. And most picks each year aren't going to pan out into solid major leaguers. But his track record is pretty great, between the players they have now, the players that are coming, and the players they've leveraged into trades (some of which were bad trades, but that's not White's fault).

146
Jeff Kartsens' NL debut!

144. I have a tough time listening to the Jim Rome show. I guess he can be funny once in a while, but I find his style to be rather childish.
vr, Xei

140 "Whom"?

What... La Roche who?

No but I wish nothing but the best for him, if he stays healthy & we're still struggling for a 3rd baseman we are definitely gonna miss him. A healthy La Roche is 25+ power La Roche.

Oh, and let's not overlook the facts that Broxton has stated he loves relieving, since a 2-3 years ago I believe, and he's pretty darned important right now as a closer. I get the Joba comparison, but I don't think it's so simple as to say, "if they'd done this and this, he'd be a great starter right now." I'll take him as a closer at the moment, thanks.

145 Here's what Baseball America's scouts said about LaRoche:

"LaRoche has plus raw power and a good feel for hitting. When he gets his arms extended, balls fly off his bat to all fields. He lets balls travel deep and has the bat speed to catch up to the best of fastballs. He has advanced pitch recognition and commands the strike zone well when he stays within himself...LaRoche profiles as an everyday third baseman with the potential to bat in the middle of a lineup."

151 Oh I do too! I don't listen to him that often, but this week since I knew Mattingly was on and then with the ManRam trade, I couldn't resist. He can be funny, and he can be on target, and then sometimes he's just a dork. I can only take him in small doses, but, hey, when in the shower, Rome's a fun listen.

Or is that, when in Rome, a shower.. oh never mind.

135 - it just all reads as dysfunction to me.

i see nothing wrong with having more people involved in a personnel decision: owner, gm, scouts, on field management should all have a say because they all have slightly different points of view and concerns. obviously the buck has to stop somewhere but it should at least include as much input as possible.

154 That just means Broxton is greedy and isn't doing what's best for the organization!

If he enjoys closing then we should let him close. An ace in the bullpen for pennies is by no means a bad thing to have.

Wow. The ignorance of some of the people working for mlb.com never ceases to amaze me. Check out this gem: (the video)

http://tinyurl.com/6b3pnm

Pay particular attention to the part about their new 3B.

144 -I guess I picked the wrong day to be away from computers yesterday, so please forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but by Ned's own account (on the Dodger KABC pre-game show, IIRC), this was entirely Theo's deal. He called Ned yesterday morning and presented him with the whole scenario. Ned's role was to run it by Frank and then say "Yes."

It is the general depth of the Dodger system that made Theo come to us. That's Logan. I don't see this as a Ned-saving deal, as it is being presented in the press,

From SI's report of the 1982 Winter Meetings, a joke that only the geezers who would understand.

"After that, things heated up a little. George Steinbrenner signed free agent Steve Kemp to a five-year contract, which for the moment gave the Yankees 10 outfielders at an annual cost of around $8 million. "George is collecting outfielders like nuclear warheads," Baltimore owner Edward Bennett Williams said. "What's he building? Dense Pack?"

In that same story, there is the report that the Dodgers tried to acquire Jim Sundberg from Texas, but Sundberg refused to renegotiate his contract and the deal was called off.

159 Sorry. For some reason that tinurl takes you to the scoreboard.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_08_01_pitm
lb_chnmlb_1&mode=preview

82 Thanks, Jon.

.... the Dodgers have just made a quick two-win upgrade in exchange for a good player they weren't going to use and a quality prospect, and they didn't have to add to their payroll

From Keith Law's blog. Did anyone read that? Is he suggesting that adding Manny will mean only 2 more wins for the Dodgers for the rest of the year? That seems very low to me. Maybe replacing Kemp with Manny would add 2 wins, but I would have to think replacing what Jones has done with Manny should be worth more than 2 Ws. Its probably very tough to nail down the exact number of wins he will be worth, but it sure seems like a major game changer.

138 -- Okay, there are so many misconceptions in your post I don't even know where to begin, and it would take paragraphs to go over all of them. Your biggest mistake: Logan White does not implement a "minor league philosophy" or "develop" minor leaguers. He brings the amatuers into the system, and once they are in the system, it is the player development department that handles their instruction and promotions. When DePodesta was here that job was handled by Terry Collins (now it is handled by DeJon White), and DePo obviously didn't have a problem with Collins, as he wanted to make him the team manager but McCourt said no to that plan.

Another thing, you say White' work after 2003 wasn't that great. Well, those two draft rank among the best drafts in baseball history, so if that is the standard White was supposed to maintain, you are being ridiculous. It is like saying one team should win the World Series every year. Another thing to consider is that DePo interfered in the 2004 and 2005 drafts, so blame him. You think it was White's idea to draft Cory Dunlap, Mr. I-Walk-A-Lot-Because-I'm-Too-Fat-To-Run? And I already noted that we punted our first pick in 2005 because of DePo wanting a player unsignable for the money McCourt was willing to spend. And you called Pedroza a high ceiling prospect. He wasn't. He was crap, and look at him now, failing in Double A. Also, White didn't "discard" any prospects. Colletti makes the trades, and while White seems to be be asked if we can survive losing certain people, White is in no position to oppose every effort to trade prospects. Battles have to be picked carefully. If White says "no" every time Colletti or McCourt wants a deal done involving prospects -- and apparently McCourt put pressure on to get Manny -- he is simply going to get fired by McCourt.

164
I think the difference between the very best player in baseball over the very worst is at most like 10 wins over the course of the whole season.

There's only a third of the season left, so that would mean only a 3 or so win upgrade at best.

159
That "Adam" LaRoche clip was amazing. They even showed video of Adam. It's like someone who never watched baseball put it together.

161 - Man, the Dodgers' pursuit of Jim Sundberg. That brings back memories. He was the white whale for years.

161 Ah, memories!

"Hi, do you know me? I can kick your tail eight ways to Sunday in fantasy baseball, I'm a Dodgers fan but most people think of me as the lead singer of a very influential low-fi indie band. Who am I?"

http://tinyurl.com/5b3k7c

167
The pursuit of Jim Sundberg proves that the Dodgers in the Al Campanis Era could be just as bad at valuing young talent (since there was a young catcher named Mike Scioscia on the team at the time) as people think they are today.

164. That sounds about right. Of course it depends on which player(s) sit the most because of him. vr, Xei

164 hopefully, the 2 win upgrade takes place tonight and tomorrow.

Among the other impacts that Manny's presence might have, I look for Kent's GIDPs to go up. Our #3 hitters have only OBPed .321 so far this year.

Ah 3 years later and we will still debating about a player that Baseball America nows says projects at best as a middle of rotation starter (Hochevar). Not bad but not 1st Overall pick worthy.

Logan White knows that there are two reasons why you want a deep farm system, one is to develop your own players because its cheaper in the long run and if you have a certain philosophy be it hitting approach or selection of pitches to teach, you can influence those guys from the beginning. The second reason, is to use those players as trade options to acquire a MLB piece that your club needs right now.

Now in his previous role as a scouting director, he primarily focused on the first part. Being an Asst. GM with aspirations to be a General Manager, he is going to be looking at the second reason more closely.

Joe to Manny:

"Son, this is a conservative organization. You're going to have to cut your hair before taking the Field."

Manny: "Will not."

Joe: "Will too."

Manny: "No way".

Joe: "Well, in that case, I'll move Pierre back to left field and pencil in Jones."

Manny: Laughing uproariosly...

New post up top.

140 -- JoeyP, I wrote a whole article, which Jon put on DT, about why I think White went for a more college-heavy draft this year. Pointing to White's 2008 draft does not discredit what I said about the 2004-2005 drafts. DePo admitted to not letting White do whatever he wanted, saying "I need to be involved." And you seem to have the idea that every college player is a "Moneyball player." That is false. In the 2004-2005 drafts, you can see DePo's influence by the particular profiles of the college players we took, lots of guys who walk a lot but lack tools and athleticism, or pitchers who don't throw hard but don't walk many guys. This year, White drafted a lot of college players but not Moneyball players. You like Kyle Russell because of his power, but his huge strikeout rates in college and big strike zone (because of his size) made him the kind of hitter the Oakland A's very much shy away from.

164 2 wins through the end of the season is high - very high. It is about 1 win (a little less than 1.25 wins, actually, based on extending out VORP, and VORP does not factor in defense, so 1 win is a good estimate). And that assumes replacing Jones. This is a wash on wins if it is replacing Either.

Being replaced by a 18 million a year CF only then to be replaced by a 20 million LF is something JP will tell the grandkids about.

White may be riding the coattails of the 2002/2003 drafts but I was looking into it, and Chad Billingsley is arguably better than every single player picked ahead of him, definitely better than every pitcher picked ahead of him, and he went 24th overall. Remember the big debate and the 11th hour decision with Delmon Young and Rickie Weeks? They wasted their time, should have picked Billingsley number 1 overall.

Two things I see in this trade: #1 A lot of intentional walks to Manny (ala B.Bonds)since it will make sense to pitch around him with the present Dodger line-up (no power!). #2. More errors by the Dodgers than before. Dodger Stadium will not be as kind to Manny as Fenway Park. And "if" Manny and Pierre are in the outfield together, you are talking about the weakest outfield in the Majors!