I'm back. [crickets]

LAT'd from last thread:

Wow. I don't think it's fair to criticize Broxton as the sole reason the Dodgers lost the game. I've only read the last few comments, and basically its a debate between Broxton vs. Kuo. But frankly, it's as simple as this:

1. Broxton struggles with guys on base. Fair enough... we can see that he doesn't have the mentality.
2. The Dodgers are not getting it done at the plate. but... what boggles the mind is... HOW? Most of the team OPSed over .800 in the last 7 days. Even poor Russell Martin is OPSing over .800 this week despite being dropped to 8th. Yet, the Dodgers continue to score 3, 3, 3, 1, 2, 2 runs in each game.

Good to be back... I took a sabbatical after the dismal Giants series... only to return after a dismal Phillies series.

450

7/17 = 41% of Broxton's save opportunities turn into blown saves.

Because 17 save chances dictate a player's worth, or his ability to lock down the ninth over 162 games.

He should not, at this time, be the team's closer, full stop.

Why? This is not a playoff team. Let the kid work the ninth, and figure out if he's the guy to lock down the last frame. The Dodgers are not a playoff team. You know it, I know it, we've known it since May. Hand the guy the ball and let him learn.

Because you like watching him walk AAA players on four pitches?

Yes, Rob. I enjoy watching this. It makes me happier than anything on planet earth. Happier than a pint of Firestone and a fat dip of Skoal. I love watching Broxton fail. I say to myself "Gee, I hope Broxton walks AAA hitters...That would be awesome." Or not.

Can we just give the kid the ninth inning and let him grow into it?

I'd like to give Biemel a chance. Sure he only throws a mid 80's fastball, but he has a sub 2 ERA, he has command right now, and can pitch with men on bases. Also, his funky delivery seems to screw up the hitters for some reason.

3 Beimel is the high leverage guy. Or he would be, if Joe Torre understood leverage.

This looks pretty cool, if you like caves.
http://www.sequoiahistory.org/cave/cave.htm

Here's a site with lodging options, the Comfort Inn with the free internet, pool and continental breakfast looks like a good deal for a family.
http://www.npslodging.com/

Maybe Broxton is just depressed Andy is gone.

; )

Wuchsachi Lodge or the John Muir Lodge. Might as well stay in the park to save time and spend more time being at one with nature. Stay two nights at least. Otherwise your kids will mutiny on a trip of that length.

Or you can just go to Vegas and live in a different jungle. One with $5 dollar blackjack.

"7/17 = 41% of Broxton's save opportunities turn into blown saves."

That's absolute nonsense. It's the residue of poorly thought out scoring rules. Middle relievers get credit for a "save situation" only if they blow the game, and get tagged with so-called "blown saves" in situations where they had no more chance of getting a save than I have of being crowned King of England.

Hey, if you want to dump on Broxton, Rob, have at it. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms one can make of Broxton without introducing intentionally misleading garbage into the discussion.

Tonight's game just finished me off. That was an awful thing to watch. I'm taking a break from the Dodgers. It can only do my health good.

No fighting people.

Haven't the Olympics taught us anything?

One dream! One world!

The first time I read the EU constitution, I was pretty sure it guaranteed me the right to be crowned the Queen of England, since discrimination on grounds of any circumstance of birth was forbidden. But I never pursued the claim.

11 Really, because I thought the lesson was that a country should bend the rules to their advantage to win as many medals as possible.

Closer has never ever been a trial by fire job. You either can, or you can't. There are no let's see what happens over the course of 20 games with a closer. You can either throw strikes when you have to or you can't. The best closers are effective from the moment they are put into that situation.

I'd love to know how many times you've been on the bump in a high leverage spot.

I can't believe the willingness to dump on Broxton.

13
The Olympics has many messages.

11 I could swear I heard that in a song from a movie my nieces were watching this weekend.

If I want to be depressed I could go on the UCLA fans's board a week from tomorrow night.

Lodging inside the park, as at most National Parks, is cost-prohibitive for normal people thanks to privatization. You can get a tent cabin for $400 at Sequoia. Be sure to thank your local congressman.

17
I know we will get destroyed, but as long as there is one positive thing then I will be happy. Heck, no KD may just be enough by itself.

Low expectations can sometimes be great.

19 Look at the bright side, with Craft you can instantly start the rebuilding process. An another year with Ben Olsen would only set you back.

- Loney could also sit in favor of Casey Blake, according to Torre, if Rafael Furcal returns, allowing Nomar Garciaparra to play third on some days.

Er....

http://www.beloblog.com/Pe_Blogs/prosports/mlb/dodgers/

20
The Craft era won't last very long.

It will be Brehaut time!!!!

Speaking of low expectations, I think it's ridiculous for me to expect a team like our Dodgers to play this badly (or essentially, not show up) on the road and qualify for the playoffs.

Something will have to give eventually, don't you think?

I'm not a big fan of the term "not show up." Mostly because it's wrong. The game did go 11 innings.

0 - Sequoia is a LONG freaking drive, longer than you think, and this is coming from someone who has done it without kids in tow. The times I have been, I plan on at least three days, one of them spent overnight in Visalia. There is little lodging in the park that isn't camping, and what there is is both limited and fairly primitive. Sequoia is kind of a lame place to go visiting as a commuter for that reason; you really want to camp there, and it's a long drive up the hill and back.

32 games remain to be played.

12 are at home.

The results thus far being what they are for the Dodgers, my question is this:

Rather than obtaining the old guys from Cleveland, Boston, and San Diego that the Dodgers don't have to pay, would it have been wiser instead to have kept the young talent who were shipped off for the old guys?

Poor Casey Blake. Tonight he couldn't see the ball at the plate with men on base.

On the Broxton subject: My sense is that with 'runners on base', he gets rattled a bit. I get the feeling he is a little uncomfortable in the tight situations of the ninth inning, where with runners on base, he knows he has to keep the runners close to the bag in a close game. Since his pick-off move is not that great, and the fact that he is a 'righty', I sense that he rushes his pitches to the plate and gets a little (a lot?) wild as a result. Speaking of keeping a runner close to the bag, and then actually picking off a runner (Pierre), what a job Romero did late in the game. To me that was a 'classic'. They ought to show that sequence to all young pitchers (and some old ones too). He showed Pierre so many different looks it was no wonder he fooled Pierre. It does help to be a 'lefty'.

26
I was one of the more vocal anti-Manny trade people. So that is a yes for me.

So if I told you last week we would go 2-2 aginst the Phils and take 2 of three this weekend would you have been ok with that? Cause that's what we got. 7 game series and we take 4. Dissapointing? Sure. Awful? Not really.

26 We will have an answer 32 games from now, but even if we don't make the playoffs the moves to get Manny and Blake were solid. Nothing wrong with waking up the fans even if you keep playing at the same level. Most fans who went to the games in August had a lot more fun then the fans who went in July. Deciding our future is shot because a few prospects changed hands when anything can happen between now and next season seems to be excessive hand wringing. This was Manny not Baez.

Everybody here is hung up on championships, the Joe blow fan just wants to have a good time. We aren't the Lakers, we don't have a legacy of domination that is ingrained into the fan base. Even the Clippers have won more playoff games in the last 20 years.

2 - This is not a playoff team.

I know that, you know that, though I daresay Jon isn't committed; certainly, Frank thinks it isn't. The division is at least reachable, and handing the job over to someone who is not getting the job done is not an acceptable answer, not to mention an unrealistic one given ownership's expressed priorities. Moreover, even if the division weren't within reach, I'm not so sure I'd hand the job over to him at this point. Francisco Rodriguez wasn't anointed closer until after he had a couple years as Troy Percival's wingman under his belt.

9 - Eric, I've heard that argument before and I fail to see the logic in it. Are you seriously trying to argue that he pitched well in his blown saves, that they are somehow not the residue of his bad outings?

If you leave on Saturday morning, it shouldn't be too much more than four hours to get up there, should it? It seems like a long drive because every minute spent in the Central Valley seems like an eternity, but it's not that bad. Unless there's fog, then it's worse. Fog season doesn't officially start till November, but that doesn't mean there won't be any.

24 - and considering they outhit the Phillies 13-7.

26 - Rather than obtaining the old guys from Cleveland, Boston, and San Diego that the Dodgers don't have to pay, would it have been wiser instead to have kept the young talent who were shipped off for the old guys?

It sounds to me that the organization was all in favor of using LaRoche as a trade chit after his injury. He isn't drawing rave reviews in Pittsburgh so far, but as far as I'm concerned, the price of that trade will be better known in March, 2009. The trade that brought the team Casey Blake at the cost of perhaps the best catching prospect in the game (Carlos Santana) has the potential to be an utter disaster.

30 - Everybody here is hung up on championships

Last I checked, that was the whole point. Flags fly forever, etc. Not that teams should attempt to get one every year, and there are points where you're better off retooling than trying to win right now, but the Dodgers' lengthy (for them!*) absence from the World Series has made for some very famished fans.

*Try talking to my Cubs fan wife about this.

32
I hate the fog on the 99. I hate the 99, the only good thing about the 99 is that I can get to Kernville from there.

29 - huh? The Dodgers play the Phils eight games this year. They're now 4-3 so far with one more game to play in Philly.

30
Most fans who went to the games in August had a lot more fun than the fans who went in July.

This is the essence of what I woke up considering this morning.
How much fun is it now?

the Joe Blow fan just wants to have a good time.

From my experience at the games, this is true.

Everybody here is hung up on championships - See Angels.

31 - Got that backwards, Frank (McCourt) thinks this is a playoff team.

36 - See Angels.

Are you saying the Angels are hung up on championships (viz. the Teixeira trade)? Or that the Dodgers are panting after the Angels?

33
I disagree about the flag thing. It is a nice thing to say "flags fly forever" but fans of the Cubs have still enjoyed being Cub fans for the last 89 years. Are Yankee fans any happier then Cub fans? Any more committed? The die hard fans may consider a flag to be the only goal but the thousands of fans who go to the game to watch baseball, or share it with friends, or family, winning a world championship is not the end all.
If it was, fans of most of the franchises in sports would have given up being fans long ago since most of them never have a chance to be Champions.
While the stated goal is "win" if that was really the case, then franchises would be run differently. The real goal is to make "money". Only a few franchises with owners like George Stienbrenner and Jerry Buss was the real goal to win a world championship every year and even George with all his money has had several long droughts during his reign.

0
This drive took me six plus hours the last time that I attempted it. (no kids, 1 stop)

25 is on spot.

When my three kids were 1, 3, and 5 just getting prepared for a trip to visit family around town required packing the car with a lot of equipment.

So your plan is a good one, but you might want to make it a three day or four day trip.

Alternate weekend Mountain destination:
Big Bear Lake.

26 - to answer your question, no.

When the Dodgers made the trades for Blake and Manny they were legitimately in the race for the Western Division. I would suggest that with 32 games to go and being 3 back with 6 or 7 games against the team they are chasing, they are still in this thing and potentially a playoff team. They were solid moves and absolutely worth it.

LaRoche was a wild card and the Dodgers had a chance to get one of the best hitters in the game (who also happens to be one of the most charismatic players in the game, and who loves stars more than Hollywood?). That is a trade you make every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Santana is also a wild card. This might be the year that he figured it all out and he may become Johnny Bench. Or, this year is an outlier and he'll never make the bigs. Blake filled a hole that the Dodgers needed to have filled.

Maddux, likewise, filled a hole the Dodgers had when they were fighting for the division title.

As I've been saying for a while, at some point you have to make the decision that it's time to stop building for tomorrow and start playing for today. The Dodgers made the determination that this was the year to start playing for today. The guys they gave up are guys that they considered expendable in order to be in a position to make the playoffs.

The core of this team - Kemp, Ethier, Loney, Martin, Billingsly, Kershaw, and likely Kuo and Broxton - is not going anywhere any time soon. In fact, there's a high likelihood that these guys are going to be a part of the everyday line up for the next 5-7 years.

Losing a couple of games, even down the stretch is not the end of the world. It really isn't. Nor does it mean that the Dodgers weren't a play off team. What we knew in May was that the NL West was going to be good - the defending NL Champion Rockies, Arizona, San Diego, and the Dodgers were all legit play off contenders. Then reality set in. The Rockies got hurt, the Padres got old. The Dodgers decided to be inconsistent. And Arizona took the lead in the division by default. Now with a month to go, the Dodgers are in striking distance with a line up that can score a lot of runs (or very few, as the last few days have shown) and a pitching staff that can give up very few runs (or a lot, as we've also seen over the last few days). Anything can still happen.

As far as winning championships, that's ultimately what matters. As the old saying goes, "No one remembers who comes in second." This team had a decent shot (and I think still does) of winning a championship this year. They are also in a position to win championships over the next couple of years. Will they? I don't know, my Magic 8 Ball is in the shop. The front office has done what it thinks it needed to in order to put the club in a position to win - and really, other than trading Pierre and designating Jones for assignment, what more (or less) would anyone else have done?

Sorry for the rant. I've been busy the last couple of days. I'll try to get back to the pithy snark in the future.

39 - and you make the most money running a franchise in one of two ways: move to New York, LA, Boston, or Chicago; or, build a franchise that is a position to win/contend every year.

the Lakers and Yankees are perfect examples, really. Fans of those teams love their owners because they do what they think is necessary to win. The haters hate them in part, I think, because of the owners. I know that's part of the reason I dislike the Yankees, because my team's owner is not like that - they're not willing to ignore the slotting system, the luxury tax, and do all the other things the Yankees to put a winner on the field. It's especially frustrating when the Yankees win.

You ask if Cubs fans are as happy as Yankee fans, or vice versa. It's tough to say. This year, Cub fans are probably happier because their team is looking at home field advantage in the playoffs while the Yankees are looking at being done before the playoffs start. But over, say, the last 15 years? Yankees fans were probably happier.

Yes, a lot of people are baseball fans and go to games to enjoy it with the family and friends. And that is a good thing. But don't think that means they don't want to see the Dodgers win. They absolutely do. I was at Game 1 of the 2002 World Series, Angels and Giants. There is a conversation that I will never forget as we were walking down the ramps:

A seven (or so) year old kid is walking out with his dad and says, "Well, that sucked. The Angels didn't win."

The dad, amongst many, many older people, turns to his kid and says, "Do you know how long a lot of us have waited just to see the Angels in the World Series?"

Even casual fans want to see their team win. It's why we're fans. We love the game and we love the team. Just most people don't live and die by it.

really, i don't know what has gotten into me.

38
The Angels with Stoneman (Montreal) and Scioscia (Dodgers) established a system of developing talent and winning consistenly.

Scioscia is carrying this system on. How many years has he been at the helm? Nine years? What manager has won more games during his tenure.

While Moreno inherited a winning system and has steadily enhanced it, McCourt by comparison bought chaos.

If McCourt is trying to establish a new winning tradition, he is in a game of catch up with Moreno and the Angels.

Never doubt that Moreno is competing with McCourt for fans and attention.

It would be easier for me to follow the Angels more closely if they had a really talented announcer similar to Vin.

41
How can we be in a position to win championships over the next couple of years when we have so many unknowns?

41
42
Great posts - Thanks.

41 - I say all the above about Santana recognizing that Jeff Mathis looked like the second coming of Johnny Bench in the Cal League, too. But.

44 - The Angels vs. Dodgers meme gets painted by the local media because it's an easy one to do, but it's also overdone. People in the Valley aren't going to become Angels fans just because they're winning this year and the Dodgers aren't; the Dodgers have history on their side, not to mention a much more geographically central location. (Of course, you could argue that the Angels are better situated demographically, but that's a position I'm not prepared to take on.) That's a lot to contend with. And don't forget the Angels are perfectly capable of making their own big mistakes. Gary Matthews, Jr. is on the books for three years after this one, and he's about as productive as Pierre. Their outfield is old and getting older, with no real reinforcements coming. They haven't had a first-round draft pick three years running, and their once-highly-rated farm system is plummeting in the rankings thanks to a dearth of impact talent and the sudden collapse of some front-line talent (Nick Green, Nick Adenhart, and before July 17, Brandon Wood).

31 You put a percentage out there, 41%, that has nothing to do with anything. That number means less than nothing. Its only possible purpose is to mislead, since it omits the occasions when Broxton was successful while including the ones where he failed. It's using stats, to paraphrase Vin, as a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination.

If you were really looking for a stat that has some semblance of meaning, you'd have added up Broxton's saves plus successful holds, and THEN figured out the percentage he's blown. (That number, incidentally, is 7 out of 30: 23%.)

The way you did it is basically equivalent to removing all of Manny's singles from his record, and then claiming that he's batting .120 because he's only 9 for 75.

42
46
The key word is "compete" not "win". Expectations of winning a championship is unrealistic, expectations of competing for a championship is within the realm of reality.

48
The Angels lead in their division today is one thing that I would point to as being "overdone".

The Angels stadium is full to near capacity most of the time.

As for history, if the Angels can make it to the World Series again this year ... well?
It's very glamorous. A team in the WS generates a lot of attention.

41

Good stuff.

There should be plenty of lodging in Three Rivers. While in Sequoia, you have to see the General Sherman tree and Crystal Cave.

I feel like Drew Carey in the episode where he sings "High Hopes" while dissolving into tears. To many blown saves down the stretch, too many runners left on base, too many decent young players given away that come back to haunt us, too many decent young players benched for PVLs who aren't where they should be, too many lost opportunities. Grump, grump, grump.

The MLB schedule-makers really set out to toy with Dodger fan emotions. Front-loading the schedule with lots of home games fostered optimism (not to mention a "win now" mindset among Management personnel), which was likely to be dashed near the end of the season when the Dodgers hit the road for long periods of time.

Reading back over this thread, boy, I was kind of grumpy, wasn't I?

This morning I'm adopting the Scarlett O'Hara philosophy. It's a new day and hopefully Billingsley will win.

After he loses tonight I'll resume being grumpy again.

They can still get it together, thrash the Diamondbacks at the end of the road trip and come back home on the shoulders of triumph instead of on their shields. It is not written yet which way it goes.

After we swept the Phillies on the road I'm sure many of their fans felt they were pretenders with that rotation. Every team in this thing is filled with holes, and guess what, they are all playoff contenders.

56
http://tinyurl.com/thiswillmakeerichappy

SFW

49 To be honest, I don't care how successful Broxton was in the 8th. When the pressure gets dialed up, (runners on base, save situation) Broxton folds. Use your eyes. Like ToyCannon knows Jeff Kent's defense at 2nd sucks, it's becoming evident Broxton is a different pitcher in the ninth. Closers don't walk Andy Tracy on four pitches, plain and simple.

59 - Do you use your eyes when he does well?

New post up top.

All kinds of thoughts.

I got off the site in time last night so that I didn't start yelling and screaming.
Now I've had time to think and read through everything and use this site for its stated purpose. I certainly haven't given up on the playoffs yet. Things haven't been breaking our way lately, and it is always possible that that will turn around in a big way with an even bigger stretch than a week ago. A couple of people have commented about how good our OPS has been with so few runs. All teams have stretches where their pitching goes south all at once. So I guess I'm singing Tommorrow too.

Jon, speaking of Mad Men it is really good. I don't know much about current TV for a number of reasons, one being that its a pain to get the networks the way I'm set up with DTV. But I caught a few episodes on AMC and recognized many people I knew during my growing years.

Sorry I know nothing about central Ca. but it sounds like you should study up on car trip games. Have a great time.

I'm afraid if every thing I say is positive, people will think I've really flipped so I will mention that September could also go like last year when everything went wrong. But somehow I will still find a way to enjoy our young players.
They're alot of what keeps me going.

I highly recommend the Montecito Lodge, especially for families. It has somewhat rustic cabins and rooms in the lodge, tons of activities for the kids, and provides all your meals (and the food is pretty good). Unfortunately, it's not a great candidate for a quick trip because it's a pretty long haul and probably not worth just a one night stay. But keep it on your radar if you decide to stay longer or return another time. (You would come in from the Fresno route for both the Montecito and the John Muir Lodge which a few people already recommended).

Three Rivers is not too exciting and still quite a ways from the main part of the park (aka the big trees), but at least it should be cooler by October and there should be plenty of vacancy after the post Labor Day travel season. So it's a good backup plan, but if you're only going for one night, I would try and stay in the park itself.

Just make sure to pick your final destination before you leave. If you want to go to the John Muir Lodge/Grant Grove side go in from Fresno. If you want to go to the General Sherman/Big Trees come in from Three Rivers and don't plan on driving to the other side of the park - it's a long, twisted drive that will make for a very unpleasant trip.

After watching last night's game, I can't wait till September 2. That's when The Office: The fourth Season comes out on DVD. September 25th should be better too. That's when The Office begins its 5th season. Why mention this? Because the Dodger season is over.

They indeed left their heart in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago and haven't recovered. Torre continues to pitch a guy who is not a closer. (Kuo or Beimel should be the man). Keep Broxton in the set-up role period.

And, would it kill us to leave a starting pitcher in to complete the game from time to time. Come on this is getting old. Let these guys finish what they started. (Unless the pitcher doesn't want to. That's getting back to the heart issue isn't it?).

It's too late, but give Martin some time off. Or better yet, get an exorcist because Andrew Jones is inhabiting his body.

And tell Torre to never take Ethier out of the lineup.

But most of all, bring Lasorda, or heck, Tony Robbins (worked for the Kings)into the Dodgers clubhouse and instill some heart and soul into an otherwise hopeless bunch.

We talk about the Angels. They ARE the Dodgers of yesteryear plain and simple. Sciosia gets it and it is quite clear to me that in his tenure he has brought the Dodger Way with him. He remembers.

Sequoia is a great place to take the kids. My family camped there pretty much every summer while growing up; you and the kids should have a good time.
My recommendations, since you only have two partial days, is to stay at Wuksachi Lodge, to maximize time. It's pricy but the only non-tent option within the park I know of. There is also a nice restaurant in the lodge.
With the time you have, you should be able to do: giant forest area, morro rock area, and either crystal caverns or tokopah falls, maybe both.
This could work:
Day 1
•leave by 7a, get to Giant Forest by 12p
see general sherman tree, walk the congress trail. It is an easy 2 mile walk.
•buy morning cavern tour tickets for the next day
•drive to moro rock area
do auto-log, tunnel log, etc.
•Climb moro rock (stairs, evening sun is good views)
•return to lodge for dinner
Day 2
•Do cavern tour in the morning
•Afterward, go to lodgepole for lunch.
•Hike to Tokopah Falls from lodgepole (3mi round trip)
•Drive home