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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Ethier Rifling a Variety of Pitches
2008-09-10 08:53
by Jon Weisman

Hello, friends.  Here is a chart listing all of Andre Ethier’s plate appearances while batting ahead of Manny Ramirez.  I’m not interested in making any sweeping judgments here, but rather just offering up some data.

  • Ethier is averaging 4.5 pitches per plate appearance while batting in front of Ramirez. Though it could be a reflection of patience that increased as the season progressed, this figure is higher than Ethier’s season average of 4.17 pitches per plate appearance, which is the highest among Dodger regulars.
  • Of the 221 pitches Ethier has seen in front of Manny, he has taken 38 percent for balls. He is averaging nearly two balls per plate appearance.
  • The percentage is almost exactly the same – about 38 percent – for the number of offspeed pitches Ethier has seen. (Note: I counted cut fastballs as offspeed pitches, which technically might not be correct.  I did so because I really just wanted to separate the traditional fastball from other options.  In any case, there were only a handful of cutters among the 221 pitches total.)
  • In one-third of his plate appearances, the deciding pitch was not a fastball.
  • When the final pitch of the at-bat is a fastball, Ethier is 12 for 25 with four doubles, two triples, a homer and eight walks. When the final pitch of the at-bat is not a fastball, Ethier is 9 for 16 with four doubles and two homers (no walks).

    Again, I’m not drawing huge conclusions from this – I would just like to ensure that Ethier gets his fair share of credit for his tremendous play of late.  He’s not living off fastballs down the middle.  He’s seeing a good mix of pitches, in all locations, and to the Dodgers’ great fortune, he’s aplombing them.

    Andre Ethier Batting Ahead of Manny Ramirez
    Date Opponent Inning Outcome Final pitch Balls Strikes Total (Offspeed)
    8/28 at Washington 1 Single to left Fastball 0 1 1 0
      L, 11-2 3 Fly to center Slider 3 5 8 3
        5 Walk Fastball 4 1 5 1
        7 Strikeout Fastball 1 3 4 2
    8/29 at Arizona 1 Double to right Fastball 0 1 1 0
      L, 9-3 3 6-4-3 DP Cutter 0 3 3 3
        5 Single to first Curveball 2 2 4 4
        7 Ground to first Fastball 2 1 3 2
    8/30 at Arizona 1 Fly to left Fastball 0 3 3 1
      W, 6-2 3 Line to left Fastball 0 3 3 1
        5 Strikeout Curveball 0 4 4 2
        7 Strikeout Curveball 2 3 5 4
        9 Strikeout Fastball 1 3 4 2
    8/31 at Arizona 1 Homer to right Curveball 0 3 3 2
      W, 8-1 2 Ground to first Fastball 3 3 6 2
        4 Double to center Changeup 2 4 6 5
        5 Fly to left Fastball 1 1 2 1
        7 Fly to center Fastball 2 10 12 4
    9/1 vs. San Diego 1 Walk Fastball 4 1 5 0
      W, 5-2 2 Walk Fastball 4 1 5 2
        4 Fly to center Changeup 2 4 6 2
        7 Single to center Fastball 1 1 2 0
    9/2 vs. San Diego 1 Single to center Changeup 0 2 2 1
      W, 8-4 3 Triple to left Fastball 1 1 2 1
        6 Homer to center Fastball 0 1 1 0
        8 Repko in for Ramirez          
    9/3 vs. San Diego 1 Line to left Fastball 3 5 8 4
      W, 6-4 3 Single to center Curveball 0 1 1 1
        4 Double to right Changeup 0 2 2 1
        6 Strikeout Fastball 3 7 10 4
    9/5 vs. Arizona 1 Homer to right-center Curveball 1 2 3 2
      W, 7-0 2 Single to center Fastball 1 2 3 0
        4 Double to right Cutter 1 3 4 1
        6 Double to center Fastball 2 2 4 1
        8 Repko in for Ramirez          
    9/6 vs. Arizona 1 Strikeout Changeup 1 3 4 2
      W, 7-2 3 Walk Fastball 4 0 4 2
        5 Walk Fastball 4 2 6 3
        6 Walk Fastball 4 5 9 1
        8 Repko in for Ramirez          
    9/7 vs. Arizona 1 Single to center Fastball 3 4 7 1
      W, 5-3 3 Strikeout Changeup 2 3 5 3
        6 Walk Fastball 4 1 5 0
        7 Single to short N/A 1 3 4 ≥1
    9/8 at San Diego 1 Ground to short Fastball 3 5 8 2
      L, 4-0 4 Single to right Fastball 1 1 2 0
        6 Double to left Curveball 1 3 4 4
        9 Double to center Fastball 1 3 4 1
    9/9 at San Diego 1 Walk Fastball 4 4 8 0
      W, 6-2 3 Strikeout Fastball 0 3 3 1
        5 Line to second Fastball 0 1 1 0
        8 Triple to left Fastball 2 4 6 1
        9 Double to right Fastball 2 3 5 3
           Total  33 fastballs  84  137  221  ≥83
             16 offspeed      4.5 P/PA  ≥38%




  • Comments (107)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2008-09-10 10:29:01
    1.   underdog
    Btw, in that picture of Ethier in the dreads that SOSG posted, it looks more like he's an Orthodox Jewish man with payot. Either way, it's good stuff.
    2008-09-10 10:29:28
    2.   JJ42
    Nice work Jon.

    Question, if Saito and possibly Furcal come off the 60-Day DL, who comes off the 40 man?

    DFA Ozuna? Jones with phantom knee injury to 60-day? DY's "oblique" acts up to 60-day?

    2008-09-10 10:31:55
    3.   delias man
    Is Penny also on 60-day?
    2008-09-10 10:33:02
    4.   fracule
    That's still a very healthy diet of fastballs.
    I wonder what the 12 games before that looked like?
    Good stuff!
    2008-09-10 10:38:46
    5.   silverwidow
    3 No.
    2008-09-10 10:40:04
    6.   tsundstrom
    Once again, that Ethier is so hot right now!
    2008-09-10 10:40:42
    7.   silverwidow
    Furcal & Saito return = Ozuna & Johnson DFA
    2008-09-10 10:41:55
    8.   old dodger fan
    2 Orenduff, Sweeney, Paul
    2008-09-10 10:44:15
    9.   silverwidow
    8 Paul isn't going anywhere (yet).
    2008-09-10 10:46:28
    10.   cargill06
    0 Facsinating stuff Jon.

    From last thread, I am not saying Martin is the 4th best catcher in the NL West just asking a question the chnaces of it happening next year. Iannetta could be very good next year, Sandoval OPS'ed over 1.000 this year in the minors, and a Snyder repeat performance could make it happen.

    2008-09-10 10:46:40
    11.   JJ42
    I think Ozuna would be DFA'd for sure but it's the second one that I'm not sure of. I think they keep JJJ and that they've stuck with Sweeney this long, I doubt it would be him. I didn't think about Orenduff.
    2008-09-10 10:50:26
    12.   BiggO
    I know some of you guys aren't into fantasy baseball but I traded Broxton for Ethier at the deadline not only has it propelled the Dodgers into first place it has done the same for my team the 'pitbulls'(after bills).

    BIG UPS to my boy Ethier keep it up. I saw somewhere that Ethier's avg in Sept. coming into this year was .197 I remember he played through that shoulder injury his rookie year those numbers might be skewed.

    2008-09-10 10:51:39
    13.   Disabled List
    About the "Repko in for Ramirez"'s... In any of those three cases, was Jason was called in as a PH for Manny after Ethier's at-bat? If so, the "Manny Effect" we're looking for is still applicable.

    Probably doesn't matter much. But that's still a heckuva job going through all that data, Jon.

    2008-09-10 10:52:31
    14.   Eric Stephen
    Here is an amazing stat. Since trade deadline:

    Manny: .395/.491/.744
    Ethier: .371/.443/.750

    2008-09-10 10:53:57
    15.   wronghanded
    That is a really detailed chart for Ethier, thanks Jon. When I argue that lineup protection has an actual effect, I'm more concerned with pitch location rather than pitch type. Presumably most pitchers in the big leagues can throw all of their pitches for strikes on a fairly consistent basis. Not only does lineup protection affect pitch location, it also affects the effort given into each individual pitch IMO. I think Ethier is seeing more "fat" pitches on neutral counts or when he is ahead in the count as a result of hitting in front of Manny.
    2008-09-10 10:57:55
    16.   Jon Weisman
    13 - I believe Repko was in the on-deck circle in all cases.
    2008-09-10 11:01:44
    17.   Icaros
    When the stats don't back up the narrative, continue pushing the misguided narrative. Fitting for election season.
    2008-09-10 11:03:19
    18.   ToyCannon
    This hot streak reminds me of his July/2006 when people started talking about him as a potential batting champion.

    In his debut season of 2006 he hit over 300 in every month except Sept. In 2007 he only hit over 300 in one month. I didn't realize how bad he was in June this year.

    He certainly seems to be a player who thrives in a full time role where he knows he will be playing every day. I don't know if it is mental and he relaxes or if it is physical in that he gets in a groove with extended at bats. Either way, Ethier is the bomb.

    2008-09-10 11:03:48
    19.   tsundstrom
    So my wife and I are driving to Pittsburgh to see the game on Wednesday night. It looks like the rotation plays out to see Billingsley pitch! Any idea if the off day this week will jumble the rotation or do you think it's going to play out like it is?

    I didn't think I was going to make it to any Dodger games this year since all the surrounding road games were "bad dates" but my wife just sorta decided it would be a fun trip so boom, we're going! Woot!


    2008-09-10 11:05:21
    20.   Bill Crain
    Broxton threw 24 pitches in the ninth last night; I counted 5 sliders.

    So, 80% fastballs. That's a lot, but not as many as I would have guessed.

    2008-09-10 11:07:06
    21.   Bob Timmermann
    PNC Park is worth making a trip to.

    Even though you have to see the Pirates play.

    2008-09-10 11:07:40
    22.   kinbote
    Incredible work, Jon. Thank you. His performance has been so good I wouldn't be surprised to him move to the #3 hole next year.


    2008-09-10 11:10:06
    23.   Icaros

    That's a lineup that won't score many runs. I hope signing Sabathia is part of your plan.

    2008-09-10 11:12:15
    24.   fanerman
    22 Heh. It says "Blake Dewitt."
    2008-09-10 11:12:22
    25.   Andrew Shimmin
    This is why gambling stinks. There should be a way to bet money on whether Russ Martin is better than Chris Snyder. Why do I have to guess which team is going to win any specific game? That's too hard.
    2008-09-10 11:12:42
    26.   LogikReader
    22 23

    It's almost the same lineup we have now, except for Manny in place of Druwierre and Berromar for Furcal

    2008-09-10 11:14:18
    27.   regfairfield
    26 Remember how bad that lineup was two weeks ago?
    2008-09-10 11:14:27
    28.   ToyCannon
    It would be overkill to have Chad/Clayton and CC. Wouldn't be sporting.
    2008-09-10 11:15:33
    29.   kinbote
    24 That's nothing. Try typing Jones/Pierre with a straight face!
    2008-09-10 11:16:58
    30.   seesdifferent
    it is unbelievable to me, though I know its true, that Martin has the best obp exc for Manny (and Furcal). I hope Furcal can get healthy because a leadoff batter with high OBP is really needed at this point. If he and Saito get back to form, the Dodgers could win it all, in spite of a shakey starting rotation.
    2008-09-10 11:17:02
    31.   Andrew Shimmin
    Sandoval's MLE for his cumulative 2008 minor league stats: .278/.325/.442
    2008-09-10 11:17:03
    32.   Icaros

    Don't you think having an offense that scores about 2 runs a game to go along with those pitchers would be sporting enough?

    2008-09-10 11:18:01
    33.   Bob Timmermann
    Dusty Baker, saddened by the loss of Brandon Phillips to a broken finger, has opted to start Andy Phillips at second. Perhaps he thinks that as long as the last name is the same, he will get the same kind of production.
    2008-09-10 11:20:15
    34.   underdog
    Just the presence of Furcal in the line-up alone makes it one that scores more runs than you think. That said, Jones-ierre can't be the answer in CF unless Jones suddenly finds a magic elixir that sends him back to 2004.
    2008-09-10 11:21:19
    35.   cargill06
    25 Just find idiot friends, I'm going to make $50 with my buddy that's an Indian fan because Bills has a lower ERA than Fausto.
    I already have a $100 bet in line for next year with my buddy who's a Red Sox fan that Bills will have a lower ERA than Dice K.

    Thats easy money.

    2008-09-10 11:21:58
    36.   underdog
    How about this then?


    = 4 runs a game.

    2008-09-10 11:22:24
    37.   LoneStar7
    does anyone have the link the to andre int he whig, i missed it in the last thread.
    2008-09-10 11:22:45
    38.   underdog
    33 Then why hasn't he returned my calls? I have the same last name and can probably hit almost as well as Andy.
    2008-09-10 11:23:32
    39.   ToyCannon
    Andruw Jones has a 40-35 record while starting for the Dodgers and I won't quibble that he has done nothing to garner those 40 wins. However as we look to unearth anything positive about his season, he has been extremely effective as a bench player. As a sub he has a robust 1.130 OPS. If he can get two more plate appearances he will be at 1,000,000 per plate appearance as a sub. Now that is getting bang for your buck.

    Can't say enough about how much fun it has been to watch DeWitt play 2nd base since returning. For a guy who came in with a shaky defensive rep, he has been a revelation.

    2008-09-10 11:24:06
    40.   underdog
    36 Actually there's probably no way the Dodgers re-sign Casey Blake if they sign Furcal and Manny, too. But even if it's this:


    It'll score runs.

    2008-09-10 11:25:37
    41.   Andrew Shimmin
    I'm the idiot friend, in my circle. Happily, none of them care about baseball, so I get to keep my money.
    2008-09-10 11:28:36
    42.   sporky
    I'm going to make $50 off my dad if/when the Yankees don't make the playoffs.
    2008-09-10 11:32:53
    43.   old dodger fan
    42 Bob will let you know when that is.

    I won't win $50 but I'll be pretty happy.

    2008-09-10 11:32:56
    44.   mwhite06
    Is Pat Burrell a free agent this off-season? If so, and the Dodgers feel they need more offense from the outfield than Pierre/Jones can provide, why not look at Burrell rather than Manny? He's 5 years younger, will put up worse but not much worse numbers than Manny in the first year, and should be cheaper.
    2008-09-10 11:33:30
    45.   Icaros
    Furcal hasn't been injury-free in two years. When he played hurt last year, he was about as good as Pierre. I'm all for taking a one-year flyer on bringing him back, but if he's the key to next year's offense, that's a really unsteady gamble.
    2008-09-10 11:33:32
    46.   Im So Blue
    37 Here you go-- Andre sporting "dreads":
    2008-09-10 11:35:38
    47.   trainwreck
    It's nice of Manny to bring back Milli Vanilli.
    2008-09-10 11:36:49
    48.   Icaros
    Btw, last night's 90210 was better than the pilot. Can't go wrong with the bowling alley setting.
    2008-09-10 11:37:16
    49.   bhsportsguy
    42 My hunch is that you can collect your winnings and buy an all-you-can eat ticket to a game this year at Dodger Stadium.

    Or you could use it to pay for a nice dinner in West L.A.

    19 Since Billingsley is set to pitch Friday and there are no off-days until the 22nd, he will pitch Wednesday night in Pittsburgh.

    2008-09-10 11:37:23
    50.   Harold M Johnson
    Burell is a free agent but the Phils are said to want to re-sign.

    Burrell OPS+ over the past 5 years:


    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2008-09-10 11:38:32
    51.   ToyCannon
    Wouldn't going with Hu or DeJesus be more of a gamble. Oh wait I forgot, we have Berroa, who needs Furcal.
    2008-09-10 11:40:08
    52.   trainwreck
    I tried to watch it again, but 30 seconds after seeing those idiotic emo haircuts I had to change the channel.
    2008-09-10 11:40:14
    53.   Bob Timmermann
    I'd use the $50 to buy part of a dinner for myself at the Water Grill.
    2008-09-10 11:40:33
    54.   Icaros

    My point is, if you sign Furcal, you're very likely going to end up using Hu or DeJesus.

    I don't use "Berroa" and "2009" in the same sentence.

    2008-09-10 11:40:49
    55.   ToyCannon
    Wont' mean a thing if he doesn't break out of his slump and the Phillies don't make the playoffs. He will be scapegoated. 618 OPS in Aug, A Jones like in Sept.
    2008-09-10 11:42:06
    56.   Icaros

    I just want to know who Kelly's baby-daddy is. The obvious options are Dylan or Brandon, but the kid has a blonde perm like Steve.

    2008-09-10 11:42:13
    57.   regfairfield
    52 I see nothing wrong with those haircuts.
    2008-09-10 11:43:57
    58.   sporky
    57 They must be Caramel Kiss, too.
    2008-09-10 11:44:00
    59.   Icaros
    I'm so out of touch with kids now that I really don't even know what makes a haricut "Emo." But I thought everyone's fashion sense sucked even when I was that age.
    2008-09-10 11:44:17
    60.   ToyCannon
    I agree but if you start with Furcal and end up with Hu/DeJesus, you at least give yourself a chance at a dynamo. If you just start with Hu/DeJesus in 2009 the offense won't be getting much from the SS position. Even a Hu who can see is no match offensively for a healthy Furcal. And DeJesus is not ready yet.
    2008-09-10 11:46:00
    61.   LoneStar7
    46 thank you much
    2008-09-10 11:46:43
    62.   Sushirabbit
    Molly, I'd say the Vince Young drama is not much different than Juan Pierre's whining.

    Let's put it this way, there's not a lot of empathy for the guy in Nashville.

    Also, if you have allergies (seems like I remember something about that) now is not the time to come to Nashville.

    2008-09-10 11:47:04
    63.   trainwreck
    Well usually it is dark black for emo, but I did not know what else to call it.

    Anime characters have hair like that sometimes.

    2008-09-10 11:47:12
    64.   MC Safety
    52 57 ROFL.
    2008-09-10 11:47:15
    65.   Icaros

    If you re-read my original comment, you'll see that "I'm all for taking a one-year flyer on bringing him back." I just don't think Furcal is enough to warrant entering 2009 with Pierre or Jones as starters.

    2008-09-10 11:47:47
    66.   sporky
    Just look up Pete Wentz.
    2008-09-10 11:48:24
    67.   ToyCannon
    $391,000 Delwyn Young
    $390,000 Chin-Lung Hu
    $390,000 Blake DeWitt

    What is special about DY that allows him to make 1,000 more then Hu and DeWitt?

    2008-09-10 11:49:27
    68.   Bob Timmermann
    I (wheeze) am (wheeze) not coming (wheeze) to Nashville (wheeze) now.
    2008-09-10 11:49:38
    69.   Icaros
    I left the mainstream for good when I became out of style in the early 90s for wearing pants that actually fit correctly.
    2008-09-10 11:50:42
    70.   trainwreck
    Yeah, and you see what that got him?

    You got to deal with Ashlee Simpson everyday.

    2008-09-10 11:52:05
    71.   underdog
    If 90210 cast all sported Prince Valiant haircuts I might watch.


    Cubs bloggers aren't too happy with Lou Pinella this week, especially after he had Geo Soto bunt with a man on. He bunted into a double play. In the Yahoo live box score it said "G. Soto unknown into double play pitcher to shortstop to first, F. Pie out at second."

    2008-09-10 11:53:10
    72.   Bob Timmermann
    Umm.... pie....
    2008-09-10 11:53:28
    73.   trainwreck
    That would be cool again to the new-age yuppies, but you would have to have some white splotching on your pants for some reason.
    2008-09-10 11:54:37
    74.   DexterFishmore
    Ethier now leads all Dodgers in hitting VORP, at 35.7. Manny sits in second place at 33.7.
    2008-09-10 11:55:42
    75.   Bob Timmermann
    Tag team interesting game in Detroit.
    2008-09-10 11:56:34
    76.   Icaros

    People are stupid and boring.

    2008-09-10 11:56:57
    77.   Bob Timmermann
    The David Eckstein Experiment in Arizona appears to be over. The estimable Augie Ojeda is in the lineup today.
    2008-09-10 11:57:12
    78.   underdog
    Also Cubs fans, at least on Bleed Cubbie Blue, seem pretty cocky about their chances vs. the Dodgers if LA is the NL West rep.
    2008-09-10 11:57:37
    79.   MC Safety
    69 I wish people still wore JNCO's. I miss laughing at those absurdly large clown pants. Stupidest fad ever.
    2008-09-10 11:59:05
    80.   underdog
    I can't see Augie Ojeda without thinking of this:

    72 Unknown Pie is even yummier!

    2008-09-10 11:59:13
    81.   trainwreck
    I am sure some white trash still wear that.
    2008-09-10 11:59:31
    82.   whodat807
    78 I'd be nervous about the state of Zambrano and Harden's arms if I were them.
    2008-09-10 12:00:01
    83.   jasonungar07
    Kent was right it didn't help him (even if it did) he OPS'ed .754 in front of Manny. Ethier is at .935 and leads the dodgers in runs scored.
    2008-09-10 12:00:59
    84.   Icaros
    Who remembers suburban white kids wearing Cross Colors?
    2008-09-10 12:01:59
    85.   Bob Timmermann
    Sadly, we won't get to hear Vin tell us that Augie Ojeda's real first name is Octavio for the rest of the year.
    2008-09-10 12:02:33
    86.   cargill06
    77 But he's a winner. Clearly Arizona doesn't care about winning anymore.
    2008-09-10 12:04:28
    87.   silverwidow
    DeJesus needs a month in AAA, tops.

    He will be a high avg/high OBP major leaguer who plays plus-plus defense at 2B.

    2008-09-10 12:06:16
    88.   underdog
    My sister, a high school teacher in the east bay, used to complain about the number of, er, cracks, she had to see on a daily basis with the oversized baggy pants look. She finally gave up, or maybe less kids are wearing those these days, but it stopped being funny for her after about the 2nd day of seeing 16 year olds walking around with their hands around their pants waist, saying "That's what belts are for, for god's sakes!"
    2008-09-10 12:07:22
    89.   trainwreck
    One of my white friends used to wear his clothes backwards like Kriss Kross.
    2008-09-10 12:08:14
    90.   MC Safety
    81 Hopefully in the future that will be a fix it ticket at the very least. Jail time for repeat offenses. CCTV every corner like England.
    2008-09-10 12:09:31
    91.   Bob Timmermann
    The game in Detroit is no longer interesting.

    Not that it was all that interesting to begin with.

    2008-09-10 12:09:33
    92.   Icaros

    Ah, the Kriss Kross fad. One of the key moments in my eventual divorce from society.

    2008-09-10 12:10:59
    93.   underdog
    I believe Icaros ordered a few pairs of these pants, though:

    Reminds me of Edward Scissorhands.

    2008-09-10 12:11:36
    94.   MC Safety
    84 Yep. What about the overalls with the one side unbuttoned?
    2008-09-10 12:13:19
    95.   D4P
    Anyone up for some Leg Warmer Thoughts...?
    2008-09-10 12:14:37
    96.   Icaros

    Ha. Those would've worked when I was fronting a death/black metal band, but I went with normal black slacks to accompany my fishnet shirt. On stage only, mind you.

    2008-09-10 12:15:28
    97.   Icaros

    Oh, good one. I still get queasy thinking about those.

    2008-09-10 12:15:39
    98.   blue22
    94 - With the one leg rolled up to mid-calf? Complete the look with non-prescription eyeglasses, and you're the mack daddy (daddy mack?).
    2008-09-10 12:16:34
    99.   Bob Timmermann
    It's the look you want to have when you're listening to your box set of Dexy's Midnight Runners.

    Mine has been digitally remastered and includes a poster!

    2008-09-10 12:22:34
    100.   Icaros

    I like the song about Eileen.

    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2008-09-10 12:24:17
    101.   Eric Stephen
    Sadly the title reminds one of films made in the San Fernando Valley.
    2008-09-10 12:25:05
    102.   Alex41592
    CC Sabathia is in trouble after giving up a three run HR. 3-1 Reds. The Brewers are slumping with the Phillies, Cardinals and Astros on their heels.
    2008-09-10 12:25:43
    103.   Kevin Lewis

    Sadly, I did that once in JR High. I did not pull it off successfully and the overalls were never worn again (hangs head in shame)

    Oh, and are the characters in 90210 supposed to be the kids of the original?

    2008-09-10 12:26:15
    104.   Icaros

    You'll get some debate on the correct spelling of the first word.

    2008-09-10 12:27:09
    105.   Icaros

    One of them is Kelly and David's little sister, but otherwise no relation.

    2008-09-10 12:29:24
    106.   Jon Weisman
    2008-09-10 12:29:50
    107.   MC Safety
    My favorite 90's fad hands down was the beanie barely on the back of the head/beanie with the ear flaps and the poofy ball on top look.

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