Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Google Search
Dodger Thoughts

02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Hodges, Wills, Torre Get Renewed Hall Consideration
2008-09-16 11:55
by Jon Weisman

Past and present Dodgers Gil Hodges, Maury Wills, Dick Allen, Al Oliver and Joe Torre will be among 10 former major-leaguers considered for 2009 Hall of Fame Induction by its Veterans Committee, with results to be announced December 8.

The finalists need 75 percent of the vote from 64 living Hall of Famers to be inducted, according to Steve Garvey was among 11 other semifinalists who didn't make the final cut.

I could see Torre making it and possibly Hodges, but Wills, Allen and Oliver would be huge surprises. I don't believe the Veterans Committee, which is often reconfigured, has elected anyone in their past three votes. Bob Timmermann points out at The Griddle that Torre and Hodges are to be considered only as players, not as managers, which was news to me.

Comments (175)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-09-16 12:05:11
1.   cargill06
From last thread;

106. cargill06
103 Really? A 25 year old, 108 career OPS+ 2B, who appears to be at least an average defensive 2B and only made $3 million this year.

2008-09-16 12:08:18
2.   Bob Timmermann
The HOF voting rule states:

Those whose careers entailed involvement as both players and managers/executives/umpires will be considered for their overall contribution to the game of Baseball; however, the specific category in which such individuals shall be considered will be determined by the role in which they were most prominent. In those instances when a candidate is prominent as both a player and as a manager, executive or umpire, the BBWAA Screening Committee shall determine that individual's candidacy as either a player (Players Ballot), or as a manager, umpires, executive or pioneer (Managers/Umpires Ballot, or Executives/Pioneers Ballot). Candidates may only appear on one ballot per election. Those designated as players must fulfill the requirements of 6 (A).

It's a little wishy-washy.

2008-09-16 12:12:01
3.   Tripon
1 Cano only OPS+ing 81 this year. And has defensive lapses. Not that he's Berroa, but the situation just seems Berroa-esqe.
2008-09-16 12:13:37
4.   bhsportsguy
Maury Wills has no shot making it as a manager.
2008-09-16 12:15:35
5.   Ken Noe
In the context of his times, Wills was a significant player who helped change the game. Of those Dodgers, he'd get my vote.

Cano would not get my vote, however. Nor would Martin to third and an ancient Red Sock behind the plate. The team has to get a third baseman if Blake goes.

2008-09-16 12:16:08
6.   Bob Timmermann
I have no doubt that when there is an election for the Veterans Committee that includes managers, executives, and umpires that Joe Torre will be elected. Most likely, unanimously.
2008-09-16 12:17:10
7.   Reddog
Any word yet on whether or not Ethier's wife had their baby yet? Is it a boy? And when is Ethier expected back?
2008-09-16 12:17:49
8.   old dodger fan
Cano (age 25) in '08 .260/.294/.396
DeWitt (22) in '08 .261/.338/.377

Cano owed 27 million minimum over the next 3 years $6 million in 09; $9 million in '10; $10 million in '11 and 2 million buyout of '12.

DeWitt-No committment

Let's spend our money elsewhere and play (and pay) DeWitt.

2008-09-16 12:19:19
9.   regfairfield
8 Are you just going to ignore the last couple years where he was a legitimate MVP candidate? This isn't some 35 year old we're talking about.
2008-09-16 12:19:31
10.   bhsportsguy
7 He's supposed to be back tonight, I don't recall if they said if it was a boy or girl, they (the media) has backed off that part of the story, which is fair, Ethier can tell us if he wants.
2008-09-16 12:20:01
11.   Brendan
Garvey is in big trouble as long as Sutton remains on the vet committee. How long will Sutton serve on it(the 12 man)? . Al oliver over garvey for consideration seems a little off but I have to look up Oliver.
2008-09-16 12:20:24
12.   bhsportsguy
9 If there is way for the Dodgers to get Cano, they will, Torre, Bowa and Mattingly all love the kid.
2008-09-16 12:21:00
13.   LAT
BH, Testing went fine. A little intimidating. We had only ingredient measurements, no instructions. I had a little trouble with my cheese soufflé, egg whites didn't want to cooperate. The rest, braised chicken in tarragon and leeks and fruit crisp came out fine. This Sunday is the final test. No measurements or recipes-just the name of the dish. That's it. Truth be told, the testing is way more stressful than my day job.
2008-09-16 12:23:59
14.   bhsportsguy
13 You remembered to rinse the leeks after cutting them.
2008-09-16 12:24:10
15.   Jon Weisman
I make no testimony to the significance of these numbers:

Delino DeShields
age 23: .293 EQA (Expos)
age 24: .286 EQA (Expos)
age 25: .262 EQA (Dodgers)

Robinson Cano
age 23: .303 EQA
age 24: .296 EQA
age 25: .246 EQA

DeShields EQA was more tied up in his legs than Cano's.

2008-09-16 12:24:32
16.   CanuckDodger
9 -- You are ignoring what Cano did this year, so why can't he ignore what Cano did the two years before? We keep going down this road, you and I. You seem fixated on old performances and just don't care about what has happened LATELY. You are that way with Brad Penny and Chan Ho Park. You were that way with Odalis Perez and Joe Beimel.
2008-09-16 12:24:40
17.   cargill06
What would rather have?
3b- DeWitt, 2b- Cano
2b- DeWitt, 3b- fill in the PVL here

Now, the question would be what would we have to give up for Cano. Because of that I cannot give a definative answer.

But let's not forget Cano's career looks like this

Age 22, 2005- .297/.320/.458 106 OPS+
Age 23, 2006- .342/.365/.525 126 OPS+
Age 24, 2007- .306/.355/.488 120 OPS+
Age 25, 2008- .261/.338/.377 81 OPS+

Except for this year, he's been one of the league premeir offensive 2B who has yet to reach his prime.

2008-09-16 12:27:34
18.   old dodger fan
9 I would not dream of ignoring the previous 3 years. The closest he came to MVP was 2006 when he finished 22nd. His OPS+ the last 4 years (his career) have been 106; 126; 120 and 81.

His upside is good but what do you do with this year? Why is he down? Not only will he cost at least $27 million over the next 3 years but we will have to give up some players to get him.

I think money just might start mattering to McCourt at some point (maybe already) and I don't see Cano worth the risk for the marginal difference vs DeWitt. Take the $27 million and apply it to 3B and keep the prospects we would have to give up.

Maybe Cano has 3 great years and I'm wrong (not the first time) but that's what I'd do.

2008-09-16 12:28:05
19.   Tripon
I don't think its a debate of DeWitt at 3rd and Cano at 2nd. Its a debate of DeWitt or Cano at 2nd and a FA Vet at 3rd. For whatever reason, the Dodgers don't see him as a viable 3rd baseman next year.
2008-09-16 12:28:22
20.   regfairfield
16 My opinion of Cano has gone down from where it was last year, but he's certainly a better player than DeWitt.
2008-09-16 12:28:27
21.   bhsportsguy
13 While you are cooking, ask your instructor to draft a Consumer Notice for Production of Medical Records in state jurisdiction.
2008-09-16 12:28:49
22.   UVaDodger
That seems strange to me. Does Cano have a nagging injury? Is BABIP significantly down this year? Did he gain a ton of weight and suffer a phantom knee injury?

Is there any reason for the sudden drop-off?

2008-09-16 12:29:22
23.   bhsportsguy
20 Based on DeWitt's performance this year, has your opinion changed at all regarding his future in baseball?
2008-09-16 12:29:45
24.   Ken Noe
Andruw Jones has broken me of signing an expensive and formerly great player in hopes that his current down year is just a fluke. Those past great seasons sure didn't help much this year.
2008-09-16 12:31:05
25.   cargill06
19 Really? I thought Torre/NedCo loved Blake DeWitt at 3B because he looks the part.
2008-09-16 12:34:26
26.   Sean P

DeWitt has as good a player as Cano has been this season.

2008-09-16 12:34:40
27.   CanuckDodger
20 -- No, as a matter of fact, Cano ISN'T a better player than DeWitt. Cano is inferior to DeWitt to an extraordinary degree. Present tense. You just won't let go of a past record that is now irrelevant. DeWitt in his age 22 season is out-performing Cano in his age 25 season.
2008-09-16 12:34:49
28.   regfairfield
22 He was lucky previously, and his performance along with his luck has dropped. What's really bizarre is his defense was steadily improving, then it just plummeted. Maybe it is a motivation issue.

23 I never said he has no chance of being a good player, I said he's not a good player this year. That still seems like a totally reasonable statement to me.

24 Except Cano isn't expensive, hasn't suddenly fattened up, isn't a 12 year veteran, and is only 25. It's not a comparable case. You'd be pretty happy right now if you got Mike Lowell as a throw in for Josh Beckett.

2008-09-16 12:35:41
29.   regfairfield
27 It's really easy to always be right if you keep changing your opinion to what's happening.
2008-09-16 12:38:02
30.   UVaDodger
28 Big contract hangover, perhaps?
2008-09-16 12:39:51
31.   old dodger fan
28 This (Cano) is not expensive
12:$14M club option ($2M buyout),
13:$15M club option ($2M buyout)
2008-09-16 12:42:57
32.   Disabled List
Given Cano's age and pre-2008 performance, I'd love to take a chance on him.

But given his 2008 cratering, his big contract, and the cost in prospects required to obtain him, I think the Dodgers should pass.

2008-09-16 12:43:51
33.   Ken Noe
28 Jones is still only 31, far too young to be in decline. $28 mil over the next four years may not be A-Rod money, but it's comparable to what Pierre or Kent are making (DeWitt, $390,000). Maybe it was just me, but I never considered Lowell a throw-in; he was a darned good player for the fish.
2008-09-16 12:45:30
34.   Tripon
Would the Yankees want prospects? I would expect they want major league players in exchange for Cano to help the team now. So they'd be asking for Kemp, Ethier, or Bills.
2008-09-16 12:46:27
35.   Ken Noe
34 Kemp was the name floated by the NYC press in May.
2008-09-16 12:47:51
36.   cargill06
Remember when Pittsburgh wanted "Kemp and/or Billingsey for Jack Wilson"


2008-09-16 12:48:12
37.   old dodger fan
33 Next 4 years will cost $41 million. You included his '08 which is a bargain, but his last year as a bargain.
2008-09-16 12:49:39
38.   bhsportsguy
According to the +/- stats on Bill James Online, Jeff Kent is ranked 29th this year. Robinson Cano is ranked lower (though to be fair, he has played 40% more innings than Kent)
2008-09-16 12:49:44
39.   regfairfield
33 Taking Lowell was part of the deal. He was owed nine million and was coming off a year where he hit .236/.298/.360

Cano's performance isn't as bad as it seems. He was over performing on BABIP before, and this year he's way under forming. He saw his line drive rate go up and his BABIP drop by 50 points. It's not all bad luck though, his patience and power both took pretty solid hits this year.

His true talent level is somewhere around a high .700s OPS, and whether or not that's a very valuable player depends on if he can fix his defensive issues.

2008-09-16 12:50:42
40.   Tripon
I remember the Indians asking price for C.C.

Kemp, McDonald, Elbert, Santana, and Maeoln.

2008-09-16 12:50:50
41.   bhsportsguy
36 I never take seriously the talk about teams wanting certain players for their players, a lot of that is done to placate their own fanbase.
2008-09-16 12:50:59
42.   Disabled List
34 An excellent point. The Yankees don't rebuild, they reload.
2008-09-16 12:51:55
43.   CanuckDodger
29 -- Changing one's opinion about performances based on changing performances is what one does when open minded. If you are going to champion a player whose performance turns bad you at least have to have a reasonable explanation for why the downturn is likely a short-term blip instead of the beginning of a long-term trend. For instance, I remained a champion throughout years of bad performances by Loney in the minors because I knew the performances were explained by injuries that did not threaten to be a long term problem. Cano doesn't seem to have any physical issues this year, and the Yankees think he has abandoned his work ethic now that he has been guaranteed to be a wealthy man. The same thing happened in L.A. with Odalis Perez, who lost all motivation to succeed once he had "made it."
2008-09-16 12:52:35
44.   Harold M Johnson
Not sure if Cano is someone worthy of having a crazy argument about, but put me in the camp that he will not be a good player-- even when you look at the two good seasons he put together, they were pretty wildly inconsistent from the first half to the second. That worries me if you're talking about an expensive, long-term contract.
2008-09-16 12:53:45
45.   bhsportsguy
34 The Yankees would want young pitching as much as you could give them.
2008-09-16 12:55:22
46.   bhsportsguy
44 But generally, you can view almost every player (Albert Pujols is the exception) and see that they have hot and cold months. Ethier could not hit the ball if it was on a tee in June. Now he hits like he's in batting practice.
2008-09-16 12:55:23
47.   Tripon

The A.J. Ellis Baseball ref page is now created. You can sponsor it for the low low low low price of $200 dollars per year.

2008-09-16 12:56:17
48.   underdog
Pass on Cano. The Jones signing should have taught me to beware players who suddenly drop off. Yes, he's much younger, but still... buyer beware. If he could be had incredibly cheaply, then maybe... but I need to see some evidence he isn't a problem child or just another Angel Berroa story. I'd rather give DeJesus a flyer at 2nd if DeWitt plays 3rd, then bring Crusoe, er, Cano in.
2008-09-16 12:56:40
49.   Tripon
46 They'd be asking for Kuroda too, but I think he has a no trade clause.

And I think the yankees would take a flier on Penny's last year.

A trade of Penny, JP, McDonald for Cano?

2008-09-16 12:59:56
50.   fanerman
For the right price, I'd take a chance on Cano.

I can say that about any player.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-09-16 13:00:22
51.   Harold M Johnson
45 Hot and cold months, yes, but Cano's been all over the map since he came up, it seems. Maybe the sample size is too small, but it's worrisome, I think.
2008-09-16 13:00:38
52.   D4P
At this point in time, GMs should be particularly wary of guys dropping off, now that the league has "cracked down" on PED use. I don't doubt that PED use still happens, but I tend to think it's less now than it was before the league started paying attention in the past few years. With that in mind, we should be (and presumably are) seeing a relative high "drop off" rate.
2008-09-16 13:01:15
53.   cargill06
49 Throw in Cashman and you got yourself a deal.
2008-09-16 13:04:41
54.   Ken Noe
I wonder what Tampa would want for Willy Aybar? His numbers are comparable to Cano's and he's sure be a lot cheaper.
2008-09-16 13:07:52
55.   Tripon
54 A reliever?
2008-09-16 13:09:30
56.   underdog
49 Scratch McDonald from that list and you may have a deal.
2008-09-16 13:11:01
57.   Tripon
56 have to give some value to the Yanks to make it worth their while.
2008-09-16 13:11:33
58.   scareduck
16 - In the world according to 9 , Andruw Jones is still a borderline Hall of Famer.

Needless to say, there's little compelling about this line of reasoning, with the caveat that young players do sometimes have off years. It may yet prove that Cano is having a bad year precisely because he signed a big contract, though I would be very cautious at giving that much credence in the way of causation.

2008-09-16 13:13:01
59.   Ken Noe
If Cano really still has value, would the Steinbrenner boys let Torre have him anyway?
2008-09-16 13:14:03
60.   Sean P

Then add Andrew Jones to that list and now we're talking.

2008-09-16 13:14:06
61.   regfairfield
58 You seriously can't tell the difference between Andruw Jones and Cano?
2008-09-16 13:14:45
62.   Linkmeister
Granted the purview of the Veterans' Committee is players, it's still a crime that Marvin Miller has been excluded from the Hall.

Not that I have any strong opinions about this.

2008-09-16 13:18:01
63.   Bob Timmermann
Nonplayers aren't eligible this year. They only get voted on every other year.

Until the Hall of Fame changes its mind.

2008-09-16 13:18:24
64.   silverwidow
Martin, C
Ethier, RF
Manny, LF
Loney, 1B
Blake, 3B
DeWitt, 2B
Pierre, CF
Berroa, SS
Lowe, P


2008-09-16 13:18:39
65.   scareduck
58 - a point made for me, I see, at 43 . I had forgotten Odalis Perez, but I would also chalk that up to just steady deterioration of his skills. He really only had one good year, and that was his 2002. Dan Evans was pitching-obsessed, as I suppose you have to be in this business, was probably influenced by Perez being one of "his guys" (i.e. he traded a borderline Hall of Famer to get him), and thus made the mistake (visible, frankly, in hindsight only) of giving him a big long-term deal. In some ways it is very comparable to the Cano deal inasmuch as he hadn't really shown a solid progression over more than a single season.
2008-09-16 13:19:49
66.   Eric Stephen
How did we go from making October plans to arguing over Robinson Cano?
2008-09-16 13:20:01
67.   Bluebleeder87
if your anything like me & are asking why Gil Hodges isn't in the HOF (from Wikipedia) There has been controversy over the fact that Gil Hodges has not been elected to membership in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He was considered to be one of the finest players of the 1950s, and graduated to managerial success with the Mets. But critics of his candidacy point out that despite his offensive prowess, he never led the NL in any offensive category such as home runs, RBI, or slugging average, and never came close to winning an MVP award (in fact, he was never named first on any MVP ballot). The latter fact may have been partially due to his having many of his best seasons (1950-51, 1954, 1957) in years when the Dodgers did not win the pennant.

There is plenty more... His numbers look pretty darn good to me, but I don't have a vote.

[ ]

2008-09-16 13:20:18
68.   Louis in SF
I think considering the length of the possible contract and where the Dodgers ultimately will need help Cano is not the man. The real power and possibly a stud pitcher the Dodgers are going to need to continue to contend in the division and hopefully make a serious deep playoff run is going to require dollars being spent on a Manny, Beltre, perhaps CC, so to spend that much money on an infielder, whose ceiling I think was his 2007 season isn't worth it, considering we will have to give up too much. If the Yankees are willing to do a roto trade and take Jones and JP, my view would change dramaticallly.

Do we have any power hitting infield prospects in the low minors, especially 3rd base or even 2nd?

2008-09-16 13:21:00
69.   Tripon
64 hey, at least Pierre's batting 7th.
2008-09-16 13:21:16
70.   Bob Timmermann
Robinson Cano is the Hee-Seop Choi of the moment I guess.
2008-09-16 13:22:15
71.   Tripon
66 When somebody on DT mentioned that Giradi benched Cano for not hustling.
2008-09-16 13:23:09
72.   Bluebleeder87
are we gonna see James McDonald pitch this season or what.
2008-09-16 13:24:12
73.   Eric Stephen
DePo signed Odalis to his 3-year extension.
2008-09-16 13:24:19
74.   CanuckDodger
61 -- There are differences, but for the purposes of this discussion there is an unmistakable parallel: both players, at some time in the past, were once great major leaguers, and this year they crashed and crashed spectacularly. Another parallel is that you WANTED Andruw Jones before this year and you want Cano now, notwithstanding deterioration in recent performance relative to their performances between dates further back in time.
2008-09-16 13:24:26
75.   silverwidow
One meaningless HR and now Kemp doesn't play? What kind of idiotic thought process is that?
2008-09-16 13:24:55
76.   scareduck
61 - not what I said at all. Jones was clearly plummeting. Cano looks like he's forgotten everything that made him a plus player at an important defensive position. Being young, it's entirely possible he will rebound, but it is also possible that his career path may look more like Odalis Perez's post-2003, or, being charitable, Adrian Beltre's after 2005 (with the caveat that Cano didn't have to change leagues). It's also possible he's been hiding an injury all year, but similar explanations are available to explain any recent single-season performance suddenly out of line with a player's career numbers. As with CanuckDodger, I want a stronger explanation for his sudden collapse before writing off his 2008 as an anomaly.
2008-09-16 13:25:51
77.   Bluebleeder87

it was a few rows deep, what are you talking about, he smoked it.

2008-09-16 13:26:08
78.   Alex41592
Good to see Casey Blake back in the lineup.
2008-09-16 13:26:29
79.   Sean P

Andruw had a better year in 2007 than Cano has had in 2008.

2008-09-16 13:26:54
80.   Lexinthedena
Jeez. Kemp is having a really rough stretch, my be tired. Pierre has his best game of the season and has a very high career average in the month of September, and he's batting 7th. Why so angry?
2008-09-16 13:27:12
81.   scareduck
73 - ah, thanks for the correction. I was looking at his salary history and assumed the big jump in 2003 was Dan Evans' doing because of a long-term contract.
2008-09-16 13:27:48
82.   fanerman
77 I'm guessing he meant meaningless as in it doesn't make it any more likely that Pierre will hit another one this season or that he's a better option to play than Kemp.
2008-09-16 13:28:43
83.   Ken Noe
Pierre is starting because he left his tip and Bison's in Denver.
2008-09-16 13:29:22
84.   D4P
One meaningless HR and now Kemp doesn't play? What kind of idiotic thought process is that?

Pierre has never HRed in consecutive games. This could be his last chance...!

2008-09-16 13:29:37
85.   ToyCannon
Andrew if you think Cano is worthwhile as a 2nd baseman if he can OPS in the high 700's I don't see how you can't acknowledge that DeWitt has a ceiling at least that high and probably higher given his age.

While I think many here are undervaluing Cano I think you are totally undervaluing DeWitt as a 2nd baseman. He could give me a 720 OPS next year in his 1st full time year as a 2nd baseman and for the minimum I'd be tickled given that we could use the money for other area's of concern.

Just for the record Can is just like Beltre a pedestrain 1st half hitter who dominates in the 2nd half. The only difference between Cano of the past and Cano of 2008 is that he was lousier then usual in the 1st half and he hasn't been as good in the 2nd half. This is not small sample size but 4 years worth of splits. Hot weather hitter?
738 OPS 1st Half
878 OPS 2nd Half
2300 plate appearances.

2008-09-16 13:30:15
86.   regfairfield
So what changed about Blake DeWitt on May 15th? How about when he came back up?
2008-09-16 13:33:55
87.   Bluebleeder87
Where are they now: from Diamond Leung [ ]

Former Dodgers third base coach Rich Donnelly, now a Pirates roving instructor, disputed the notion that poor clubhouse chemistry was what caused last year's team to crumble down the stretch.

2008-09-16 13:34:22
88.   ToyCannon
Just for the record I wanted to acquire Cano when I heard he was available but that was before watching DeWitt play 2nd for the last three weeks.

As far as I'm concerned we have a 2nd baseman.

2008-09-16 13:37:39
89.   Lexinthedena
88 Who would you like to see at third next season?Assuming the money is used up on Manny.
2008-09-16 13:37:42
90.   ToyCannon
I don't understand the question. What had to change? He was a 22 year old player who skipped most of AA and all of AAA to play in the big leagues before his time. He hit a wall, they let him play to long in the funk, he went down, got settled, used what he learned during his time in the big leagues, came back up and his delivered when we needed him.
As a 3rd baseman he might lack the offensive capabilities but if he can handle the defensive chores of 2nd base his offensive capabilities should be more then adequate. In time I think he will prove to even be more then adequate.
2008-09-16 13:37:52
91.   bhsportsguy
Its possible that Pierre will get another start on Thursday, I read somewhere last night that if he gives Manny a day off, it would be on Thursday.
2008-09-16 13:38:33
92.   ToyCannon
Carlos Santana
2008-09-16 13:40:28
93.   cargill06
88 I ask the same question I ask on 17

What would rather have?
(A)3b- DeWitt, 2b- Cano
(B)2b- DeWitt, 3b- fill in the PVL here

Just curious, either way it's going to cost you money. Whether you're adding on Cano's contract or signing Crede, Blake, Etc.

For the record I'd go with (C) 1b Loney, 2b DeJesus, SS Hu, 3B DeWitt but we all know that'll never happen for next year.

2008-09-16 13:40:53
94.   Bob Timmermann
I find it hard to believe that it costs more to sponsor A.J. Ellis on B-R than it does for Stan Musial.
2008-09-16 13:41:44
95.   Jon Weisman
Robinson Cano is useless under a hobo ambush.
2008-09-16 13:43:36
96.   CanuckDodger
86 -- What has changed about Loney, Kemp, Martin, Broxton and all our other young players whom we have seen go from good stretches to bad stretches and back to good ones in the same season? Adjustments have to be made, and DeWitt didn't make them early in the season once pitchers adjusted to him. If anything, the Dodgers were tardy in sending DeWitt down to Vegas to work on what he needed to work on, and now he is back. And how has he changed? For one thing, he is a base-on-balls machine now, which I would think you would like. The Dodgers have talked about DeWitt being a quick learner, as reflected in the Plaschke column where it was said DeWitt has to be told something once while Kemp has to be told multiple times.
2008-09-16 13:45:09
97.   Eric Stephen
Robinson Cano is useless under a hobo ambush

That's the proper perspective this conversation has been missing!

2008-09-16 13:46:05
98.   Tripon
94 B-R has a policy of putting up high sponsor rates for newly created or newly available pages, then decreases the rate by 10 dollars per night until it reaches the bottom(either 10 dollars, or five dollars) to combat the rush for popular players/managers.
2008-09-16 13:48:01
99.   Jon Weisman
97 - That's why they pay me the big mythical bucks.
2008-09-16 13:48:18
100.   fanerman
94 98 I find it hard to believe that there is something about Baseball-Reference that Bob doesn't know.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-09-16 13:48:34
101.   ToyCannon
I could never afford the BRef rates but I did sponsor Kershaw at the baseball cube for a year.
2008-09-16 13:48:42
102.   CanuckDodger
94 -- I don't get that either. I thought the pricing scheme over there worked on a scale running from "really obscure players = cheap" to "really prominent players = expensive."
2008-09-16 13:48:43
103.   Linkmeister
95 97 Um, I don't get the reference. Explication, por favor.
2008-09-16 13:49:53
104.   regfairfield
96 So when is something small sample size and when is something a definite change?
2008-09-16 13:49:56
105.   ToyCannon
Even more astonishing is that Bob would make a statement like that without finding out why first.
2008-09-16 13:50:22
106.   Bob Timmermann
Whitey Kurowski only costs me $10. Red Schoendienst and Stan Musial cost... more.
2008-09-16 13:50:52
107.   Disabled List
A Loney-DeWitt-Hu-DeJesus infield would be lights out defensively, but I'd fear for our offense. Let's be realistic though. No way Colletti is gonna give DeJesus a starting spot, not when there are PVLs out there to be signed. And I think Hu is in both Ned and Torre's respective doghouses. I have a hunch he's trade bait this winter.
2008-09-16 13:53:11
108.   OhioBlues12
I have to agree that 2B is DeWitt's to lose at this point. He is loved by management and he has bounced back to perform well down the stretch after he had been figured out. The question is who should we have for 3B in 2009. I kinda wish we still had Betemit at this point.
2008-09-16 13:53:55
109.   cargill06
107 Rumor is the Dodgers said Hu was "untouchable" at the trade deadline.

The best Ron Stalinovich video was the Carlos Zambrano one, "Gasolina Baby" and "Hole-a Carlos" it makes me laugh every single time. I also like the Ethier one where he says, "excuses are like poems, they're for sissys and no one wants to hear them."

2008-09-16 13:54:31
110.   ToyCannon
Isn't it always evolving? Cano could bounce back, Jones could bounce back, Martin could have peaked and it may have nothing to do with workload. Once you think you have figured it out, it is sure to throw another Blyleven curve at you.
2008-09-16 13:54:44
111.   Tripon
107 Nobody would want a guy with vision issues.
2008-09-16 13:55:19
112.   Lexinthedena
103 That statement was for sissies, and no one wants to hear it.
2008-09-16 13:56:39
113.   Marty
Maybe it's because I have a lot of Cubs fans for friends, or maybe because I'm an actual owner of the Cubs, but the Cubs don't scare me. If it's Cubs-Dodgers, I'm putting my money on L.A.
2008-09-16 13:56:40
114.   Lexinthedena
109 Thanks for ruining my well crafted "in" joke.
2008-09-16 13:57:50
115.   underdog
I know it's old by now but I'm still laughing at FireJoeMorgan's Colletti column and especially this one:

>>"Jeff Kent, forever disapproving of the club's petulant youth, was lost to a knee injury (it has to be more than coincidental that the Dodgers won 10 of their first 11 games in his absence)."

It has to be more than coincidence -- we thus have conclusive evidence that Jeff Kent was poisoning his teammates just like that mom in the Sixth Sense did to the little kid version of Mischa Barton.

Jeff Kent -- tragic sufferer of Munchausen syndrome by proxy.<<

2008-09-16 13:58:18
116.   ToyCannon
Due to circumstances he gave DeWitt a starting job and he wasn't as advanced as DeJesus. I could see two out of three but not three out of three. I'd be okay with DeJesus/Furcal/Dewitt provided Manny is providing the offense in LF.

So many options, isn't it more fun to have Playoff Thoughts then 2009 Thoughts right now?

2008-09-16 13:58:32
117.   Eric Stephen
Explanation here:

2008-09-16 13:59:04
118.   regfairfield
110 I guess my point is that someone like DeWitt has been walking a ton lately, but if you're going to give him credit as for real improvement, why wouldn't you think Ethier permanently lost it when he hit .245/.302/.388 for 200 PA. How about when Kemp hit .253/.319/.387 for 230?
2008-09-16 13:59:06
119.   CanuckDodger
104 -- You seem to be asking for a rule, and that goes against the whole point of being flexible and open-minded. I think you have to "play it by ear," because the details in circumstances may vary widely. If there is one rule for me, it is "Do look at health issues or their absence." My observations: in condemning Chan Ho you are over-looking the role poor health played in his performances before this year, in wanting Penny back for 2009 you are over-looking Penny's dodgy arm, and in excusing Cano's 2008 you are over-looking that Cano doesn't seem to have an injury excuse for his crash.
2008-09-16 14:01:40
120.   Lexinthedena
116 That is what I foresee.

3B- Freshy Fresh
SS- Furcal-1 year deal
2B- DeJesus, with Berroa always lurking.
1B-Weird Game

Man-Ram, Bison, Pretty Dre.

2008-09-16 14:03:40
121.   LAT
14/21 BH, (sorry went out to lunch) I did wash the leeks after cutting them. I even quartered the bird correctly. As an aside, chicken wings are nasty little things. Hard to believe Hooters has built a multi-million $$ busines around them. Could it be something other thant he food? The Apple crisp was awsome but how can you go wrong with all that brown sugar and butter.
21 lol.
2008-09-16 14:05:16
122.   Disabled List
116 The key to that sentence is "due to circumstances." The Dodgers did not go in to 2008 planning to give 3B to Blake DeWitt.

Heck, only at gunpoint were they going to give the job to LaRoche, and he was far more established than DeJesus.

2008-09-16 14:07:01
123.   D4P
As an aside, chicken wings are nasty little things. Hard to believe Hooters has built a multi-million $$ busines around them

Hooters didn't build the business around the wings, but rather the breasts.

2008-09-16 14:07:45
124.   regfairfield
119 How did you feel about getting Chan Ho before the season started?
2008-09-16 14:07:49
125.   Disabled List
116 And we shouldn't be discussing Playoff Thoughts until the Dodgers actually clinch a playoff spot.

Tempting fate, counting chickens, onion on belt, etc.

2008-09-16 14:08:35
126.   Bumsrap
I haven't given up on Abreu being in the infield mix for 2009. Defensively, DeWitt at third, Hu at short, Abreu at second, and Loney at first would be the strongest.
2008-09-16 14:11:49
127.   ToyCannon
I don't think DeWitt has all of the sudden figured it out. He could easily slump again and have to make another adjustment in a career that will require adjustments until he retires. What I have seen is enough to want him to get a chance as a regular 2nd baseman.
2008-09-16 14:14:53
128.   Bumsrap
DeWitt, perhaps too slow for second and too small for third but like Bowa and Pete Rose, may have enough heart to succeed.
2008-09-16 14:15:49
129.   Kevin Lewis

Hooters hasn't even enticed me to eat there the two times my ticket would give me 10 free wings.


Now I wish our team name was "Ron Stilanovich"

2008-09-16 14:18:29
130.   ToyCannon
I won't speak for Canuck but the difference here is that while most of us saw little use for Chan Ho just like we saw little use for Saito when he staggered into spring training, but as the season went on he made believers out of most of us while you kept clinging to the implosion theory based on historical information and discounting the fact he had a live fastball again. He has regressed but he has also been a valuable part of the bullpen.

Do you not give credit when credit is due or do you simply chalk it up to small sample size?

I know I'm stubborn about Andruw Jones but that is strictly a personal issue where I hope his career isn't over because he's been a favorite of mine since he was 19, not because I don't realize he completely sucks.

2008-09-16 14:18:36
131.   Lexinthedena
129 Or "Hobo Ambush", "Robot Made of Nails", "Gasolina", "Pack-Gary" etc....oh how I can picture those jerseys....alas...
2008-09-16 14:19:18
132.   CanuckDodger
119 -- Considering it was a minor league contract, no-obligation NRI, I thought of it in the same terms as all the other such deals the Dodgers and every other organization makes. Most of those guys never see the 25 man roster, but the Dodgers seem to always find one guy like that who proves useful: Beimel, Saito, and this year, Park.
2008-09-16 14:19:20
133.   D4P
I've never been to Hooters, and I was never a fan of chicken wings. Way too much mess and effort for way too little payoff.
2008-09-16 14:20:08
134.   berkowit28
64 Kemp could do with a couple of days off. he keeps swinging and missing - maybe could use time off to get out of that rut. There's got to be some benefit from having an extra outfielder, as long as it isn't Jones. This is it.
2008-09-16 14:20:23
135.   Lexinthedena
Hooters sucks.....but I did see Jason Repko eating there once.
2008-09-16 14:22:10
136.   Bumsrap
As God as my witness, I did not know that Hooters wings fell from the sky.
2008-09-16 14:23:49
137.   ToyCannon
One should not be afraid to tempt fate, but if Jon was to ask me not to talk about the playoffs until we clinch I would stop.
2008-09-16 14:24:30
138.   Bumsrap
Is it the ad below that is subliminally generating the talk about Hooters?
2008-09-16 14:26:25
139.   ToyCannon
I love chicken wings and I liked them long before Buffalo made an industry out of them. The only bummer is after eating 20 wings you realize that 10 birds just gave it up for you and you are still hungry.
2008-09-16 14:28:21
140.   OhioBlues12
137 - There is a fine line to tread. Talking too much about 2009 my cause fate to push us there early, like reverse mojo.
2008-09-16 14:31:18
141.   berkowit28
Yesterday, I started watching the game about 20 or 30 minutes late, on my DVR. It's actually nice doing that, I get to skip the ads between innings. Eventually, I catch up, or nearly so. At the same time, I read DT on my iPhone, trying not to get past the point I'm watching on the DVR, but sometimes I discover I'm a bit ahead of myself. (Not so good seeing comments before things happen.)

Yesterday, I was coasting along, when suddenly I come upon "Oh my God!!", "What was that????", "Did I really see that???" etc. I had no idea what this could be about, and quickly turned off the iPhone. As one inning moved into the next, and I realized who was on deck and in the hole, I began of think there could only be one event that might draw such universal exclamations and cries of wonder from so many denizens of DT. Could it really, really be?, I wondered myself. And so it came to pass...

I then went back to DT on the iPhone. It made for really great reading, even coming to it late. (It's too much fuss and bother for me to try to type on the iPhone while watching a game anyway, that's why you don't see me much in the game threads.) This is one we'll want to keep harking back to, when JP is long gone. Do you remember when...?

2008-09-16 14:33:32
142.   underdog
95 131 "Nothin' beats the hobo life!/
Stabbin' folks with my hobo knife!/I gouge them with --"

Um, excuse me, Hobo. Could you play something a little less unnerving?

2008-09-16 14:33:44
143.   Sushirabbit
BushRat, FlatRat, GaryTush..

I needed a good laugh today. That past two days have not been fun.

Maybe tonight's Lowe's night to homer.

2008-09-16 14:40:36
144.   Lexinthedena
142 Classic.
2008-09-16 14:42:11
145.   kinbote
138 There's an Andruw Jones/giant bust joke somewhere, but I can't seem to make it. Paging Carnac?
2008-09-16 14:43:14
146.   LAT
139. Don't feel bad the rest of the bird was put to good use. Not like it went to waste.

133. Agreed. I feel the same way about crab and lobster. I'm not willing to work very hard for my food.

2008-09-16 14:48:23
147.   silverwidow
I think Ned gets fired even if we win the Division/NLDS.

A World Series in L.A. is the only thing that saves his job.

2008-09-16 14:55:31
148.   CanuckDodger
147 -- Why do you say that, when a couple of different media people have written that McCourt has already decided to keep Colletti another year even if we don't make the playoffs at all?
2008-09-16 14:56:32
149.   Fan since 59
141 I was in a sports bar swiveling my head to watch the Dodgers on one TV and the Cowboys-Eagles on another. When JP hit that one I immeidately thought back to the guy here yesterday who predicted Pierre would homer and then wondered what everyone on DT was thinking. I couldn't wait to get here this morning and see the post-apocalyptic remarks. With that said and the fact that Kemp has been struggling lately, it's probably good to give JP another start tonight.
2008-09-16 14:58:11
150.   silverwidow
148 Because it's McCourt. History suggests he can't be trusted on just about anything.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-09-16 14:58:22
151.   Eric Stephen
Derek Lowe has made five career starts against the Pirates. He is 5-0 with a 3.03 ERA. All but one of the starts have been at PNC Park.

2008-09-16 15:01:35
152.   Jon Weisman
Tony Jackson:

"Pierre drops to seventh because Torre said he didn't want to mess with the Martin-Ethier combo at the top. He also said Matt Kemp remains his primary CF and will play the next two games against Pirates lefties Zach Duke and Paul Maholm."

2008-09-16 15:01:55
153.   Alex41592
After today the Dodgers face three lefties in a row (Duke, Maholm & Zito) so giving Kemp a start off tonight is fine.
2008-09-16 15:05:31
154.   Kevin Lewis
Just started watching Fringe. Isn't this just how Lost started?
2008-09-16 15:06:47
155.   Jim Hitchcock
153 As long as we still have power in the lineup (e.g. Juan Pierre).
2008-09-16 15:10:51
156.   D4P
Pierre vs. RH. in 2008:


2008-09-16 15:10:52
157.   Alex41592
Matt Kemp since August 31st:


He's struggling to say the least.

2008-09-16 15:11:06
158.   bhsportsguy
Just so you know, those of you who make late plans, Saturday night's a is considered a sell out though you can buy single tix at various spots in stadium, much of Sunday's game is sold out too.
2008-09-16 15:12:26
159.   Alex41592
And going farther back:

Matt Kemp since August 15th:


2008-09-16 15:13:00
160.   Alex41592
159 - Correction August 19th.
2008-09-16 15:18:53
161.   regfairfield
Since August 1st: .264/.302/.416
2008-09-16 15:20:18
162.   silverwidow
Juan Pierre's arm has been struggling since his first day in the majors.
2008-09-16 15:21:48
163.   Alex41592
161 - And from July 1st to August 17th:


So, we've seen both sides of the coin for Kemp. Hopefully, he can pull out of his month long slump.

2008-09-16 15:21:56
164.   Sean P

Fringe is a lot closer to X-Files than Lost.

2008-09-16 15:28:46
165.   ToyCannon
Ethier stole his mojo. Imagine what would happen if our outfield ever clicked at the same time.
2008-09-16 15:33:52
166.   underdog
Weird, for the first time that I can recall, a random trade idea I proposed to a journalist ended up coming true a day later. And I had no inside information on it. I asked Mike Kils of the Denver Post if the Broncos would consider trading Keary Colbert (former Trojan) to the Seahawks, who I knew were desperate for WRs right now. Colbert wouldn't get any playing time with Denver. I thought it would make sense for everyone. He said he thought so too but hadn't heard anything. Lo and behold, it just happened for reals.

I should be a GM!

Nah. No need to get carried away.

2008-09-16 15:36:43
167.   overkill94
The one time I went to Hooters was on my birthday 3 or 4 years ago and none other than Diana Ross was there having a birthday celebration for her son in the upstairs private area.
2008-09-16 15:38:53
168.   GMac In The 909
154 The plane crashed in Lost.

And Jack's face didn't melt off.

2008-09-16 15:39:23
169.   John Hale
Is there any logic to follow for guessing next years interleague opponents?
Just saw that the schedule is to be released on Wed and that now seems too long to wait.
2008-09-16 15:39:39
170.   Eric Stephen
Since you helped a Trojan get playing time, I will suspend my hatred of felines through the weekend.
2008-09-16 15:41:03
171.   superbas
kemp should play winter ball and take the 1st, 2-0, and 3-0 pitch every time...and not put his default to "swing" in those counts. when he's more patient he can work on being more selective and crush the balls in his wheelhouse...instead of wildly swinging at pitchers' strikes.
2008-09-16 15:43:46
172.   bhsportsguy
Per Diamond Leung, Andre Ethier is not talking at all about his "personal" leave, preferring to keep it a private matter. Which is certainly his right and it appears for now, that will be how the print media will handle it.

Of course last week, Petros first question on the radio was about his pending fatherhood, Ethier, skipped around it.

2008-09-16 15:43:57
173.   Eric Stephen
For the most part divisions get matched up with other divisions, but there are usually 1 or 2 series that get fouled up. Here's the 2009 Dodger info:

"PHILADELPHIA - Although the Dodgers' 2009 regular-season schedule remains tentative and isn't close to being released, the Daily News learned this week that the club will play an 18-game interleague schedule consisting mostly of American League West opponents.

"In addition to their usual home-and-home with the Angels - the two clubs will play three-game series May22-24 at Dodger Stadium and June 19-21 at Angel Stadium - the Dodgers will host three-game series against the Oakland A's on June 16-18 and the Seattle Mariners on June 26-28.

"The Dodgers also will play June 12-14 at Texas. There will be an additional interleague series June 26-28 at Chicago, which the White Sox almost certainly will use as an opportunity to commemorate the 50 th anniversary of the two clubs meeting in the 1959 World Series."

2008-09-16 15:44:17
174.   Jon Weisman
2008-09-16 15:46:29
175.   ToyCannon
Because even though you are a misguided individual.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.