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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Milk Carton Man
2008-09-20 08:30
by Jon Weisman

Have you seen this pitcher?

* * *

Greg Maddux cruised through Colorado, then got smashed by San Francisco. This was a typical week for Maddux since coming back to Los Angeles - he has had six starts and allowed two runs or less in half of them.

It's easy to see that the 2008 Maddux is a pitcher who is going to give you inconsistent results. You might get a good outing from him; you might not. You could say the same thing at this point about Clayton Kershaw or Hiroki Kuroda. There's a difference by degrees, but the concept is the same. Even Chad Billingsley has a bad start once in a while. It happens. You look at your list of candidates, you weigh the odds and you take your chances.

My question this morning is, how did Eric Stults drop off the list completely?

On July 21, Stults entered his start in Colorado with a 2.67 ERA for the Dodgers. He left it with a 3.18 ERA. The Dodgers have not let him pitch for them since.

Stults went to the minors immediately after the Colorado game, in which he couldn't hold a huge lead. Pitching in AAA, he made six starts and held his opponent to three runs or less in four of them. On the road, his ERA in this stretch was 2.08.

Stults all along has been having the best year of his life in 2008 - a combined ERA at the two levels of 3.68 - but my point isn't to argue that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I just don't understand how he fell so far out of favor so quickly. While nearly every other Dodger pitcher gets enough rope to lasso the moon, Stults was on a leash tighter than Nomar Garciaparra's hamstrings.

From August 19 to September 17, Jason Johnson, another pitcher who began the year in AAA, was ineffective in six of seven outings. But Stults hasn't even entered a game in relief. The Dodgers have used 17 pitchers in September; Stults is not one of them.

This might not be a central question for the Dodgers in the final nine days of the regular season, especially with an off day on Monday, but I don't think it's an irrelevant one. I don't know if Stults is better than Maddux - certainly it's a rare confluence of events that they could even be considered in the same sentence - but I suspect Stults might be better this year. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a pitcher with a 139 ERA+ could help the team in the stretch run. (And don't forget that two years ago, when he truly was out of his league, he had a huge September victory in New York over the Mets.)

So what if the guy isn't going to the Hall of Fame. So what if he isn't perfect. This year, Stults has been a good pitcher for the Dodgers, one who merely had the temerity to have one bad game at Coors Field (like that's never happened to anyone before). Why isn't Stults in the game?

Is he so inconsequential that he's hurt and no one bothered to tell us, or even notice?

Comments (252)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-09-20 08:36:00
1.   tethier
from the previous thread...

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the Dodgers are 15-4 since Jeff Kent stopped playing 2nd base. Provided the Dodgers make the playoffs, I'd like to see Kent available as a pinch hitter. Maybe he can take Sweeney's spot.

2008-09-20 08:38:36
2.   bhsportsguy
I don't think Stults has even warmed up so I wonder though if he was hurt, they would have used the 60-day DL for roster moves.
2008-09-20 08:42:40
3.   Xeifrank
I'd like to see Kent back as more than just a pinch hitter (not much more). I think he'd be a good platoon mate for Dewitt in the playoffs when we faced a tough left handed pitcher. Problem is, once he's back (if he does come back), Torre might feel obligated to start him every game that Kent felt healthy enough to play in. Furcal is the big wild-card. But he's got to have a lot of rust.
vr, Xei
2008-09-20 08:43:52
4.   tethier
0 I like Stults. I always have since he beat the Mets in September a couple of years ago. I don't think he has ever been given a fair opportunity for the Dodgers. I agree completely with what you've written.

I could see Stults as a 4th or 5th starter for the Dodgers. If nothing more, he seems durable and could probably log 150-175 innings a year. It would be nice to see what he could do if given a chance. He also helps himself with the bat which can always come in handy pitching for the Dodgers.

He's also cost effective.

2008-09-20 08:44:37
5.   Bob Timmermann
I believe Eric Stults lives in a house where the main sources of food are kibble and Alpo provided by Joe Torre.
2008-09-20 08:45:51
6.   Xeifrank
Win probabilities for tonight's game. Dodgers are favorites. vr, Xei

Method / Win% / Over Under
Vegas / 69.69 / 8.1
Simulator / 72.21 / 7.4
AccuScore / 71 / 9.0

2008-09-20 08:46:49
7.   tethier
3 I suppose I could live with kent hitting against lefthanders in the playoffs, but to have him in all the time I think would be a mistake. Unfortunately, I think if he is ok, Torre will have him out there. I seem to remember Kent being really good with the bat in the playoffs a couple of years ago though.
2008-09-20 08:47:18
8.   Jon Weisman
5 - I agree with you (unless Stults is hurt). But that was one quick ticket to the doghouse, compared to the rest of the Dodger canines.
2008-09-20 08:48:40
9.   ToyCannon
They are just keeping his innings down so they don't ruin him for the future. You don't blow out a 139 ERA+ plus by trying to win games now.
Billingsley, Kershaw, McDonald, Elbert, and Stults.

On a serious note, a healthy Kent would be a worthwhile addition to the roster, a hurt Kent would be a waste of a roster spot since the only thing he could do is pinch hit and in the few times he's been a pinch hitter he's been terrible at it.

2008-09-20 08:50:07
10.   ToyCannon
I wrote that rotation for kicks but now that I look at it, you could do a lot worse in 2010 then have that going for you every day.
2008-09-20 08:55:02
11.   ToyCannon
Weren't we heavy favorites last night?

Maybe Zito loves Dodger Stadium. Nice splits here over his career.

Go Dodger Rays, Edwin Jackson did his job last night but the hitters went 0 - 6.

2008-09-20 08:55:46
12.   tethier
9 I think he'd be better than Sweeney.

I so hope Sweeney is not on any playoff roster.

2008-09-20 09:07:05
13.   twerp
From injury report--

"Speaking of catchers, Gary Bennett's left foot was in a walking boot after undergoing shock-wave therapy for plantar fasciitis."

Bennett's larger problem is "stinkitis as catcherus."

2008-09-20 09:17:15
14.   underdog
I've been wondering about Stults, too. Seriously, this actually deserves an answer. Josh, are you listening? He should at least be getting some looks over Jason Johnson. And even James McDonald is getting some time. Maybe he is hurt. All I know is, at least if we face the Mets in the playoffs, I'd rather see Stults face them than Maddux, period.


2008-09-20 09:18:34
15.   Bumsrap
I did a lot of fast forwarding last night so I may have missed the reality of McDonald's performance but I thought he looked good--good enough to be part of the rotation discussion.
2008-09-20 09:19:12
16.   twerp
Sushi, do you know if there's more than one other Nashville area DTer besides the two of us?

I'm pretty sure there's at least one more--2pin, I think. Not sure.

I think Weatherman, who commented some a good while back, lives in Memphis.


2008-09-20 09:19:31
17.   Eric Stephen
Perhaps Eric Stults start in Colorado was this:

Also, D4P rooting for Europe is one of the least shocking things in the world.

2008-09-20 09:20:23
18.   Tripon
Yeah, Unless Stults's hurt, he should be getting some bullpen action, considering that if he still has a Dodgers future, that's his long term role on the team.
2008-09-20 09:21:04
19.   underdog
15 He looked very good to me. The Giants announcers were impressed. I saw him give up that one double to Rowand but he got out of that easily enough.
2008-09-20 09:30:33
20.   D4P
D4P rooting for Europe is one of the least shocking things in the world

Yay! I see that Europe won 2 matches this morning and halved another. They're 2 down with 3 to play in the other match.

2008-09-20 09:41:02
21.   Daniel Zappala
Jon, I'm glad to see you wrote this. I was just thinking about Stults myself last night.
2008-09-20 09:41:53
22.   LU Dodger
Has anyone considered that Stults's not starting doesn't have anything to do with his performance, but everything to do with his lack of star power. I mean this is LA, and Eric Stults starting in the heat of a pennant race is hardly going to bring in the fans that Greg Maddux (HOF), Kershaw (hyped-up prospect), or Kuroda (hyped-up import) can.

I mean I personally dislike seeing Stults start because he really doesn't have a tangible "something" about him. Shallow it may be, but I mean, "like the guy in the $million dollar contract, is going to hold open the elevator for the pitcher who doesn't make that in a year! Come ON!"

2008-09-20 09:44:15
23.   D4P
I mean this is LA

It's neither a disco nor a country club.

2008-09-20 09:44:56
24.   D4P
Nice GOB reference, too.
2008-09-20 09:49:59
25.   LU Dodger

I was especially impressed with his curveball. While it's not the humdinger that Kershaw posseses, it's pretty darn good. Might be better. Also had no idea how big he looks on the mound.

2008-09-20 09:50:12
26.   Eric Stephen
Postseason tickets on sale in 10 minutes, people!
2008-09-20 09:56:57
27.   Bob Timmermann
I hear the European golfers in the Ryder Cup tip better than their American counterparts.
2008-09-20 10:00:02
28.   Icaros
I thought tipping didn't exist in Europe.
2008-09-20 10:00:18
29.   Jon Weisman
22 - It's not like Jason Johnson or Ramon Troncoso have stars on the Walk of Fame.
2008-09-20 10:02:11
30.   LU Dodger

But relievers other than closers can't really have star power, and Jason Johnson = diabetes success story

2008-09-20 10:02:50
31.   LU Dodger

of course they tip better. the euro > us dollar

2008-09-20 10:03:02
32.   Icaros
Joe Beimel has his own lunatic stalker in West Virginia. That's a sign of stardom.
2008-09-20 10:05:33
33.   Bob Timmermann
I've got a pair in the always fine view of section 166 in the Loge for what would most likely be Game 3 of the NLDS.

Note use of the subjunctive.

2008-09-20 10:06:42
34.   LU Dodger

I think the Dodgers could have a sitcom with the bullpen characters

beimel = cool party guy (not unlike uncle jessie)

broxton = lovable oaf (not unlike guy in earl)

saito = fun loving foreigner (not unlike fez)

cory wade = the character in every show who no one can seem to remember

2008-09-20 10:06:47
35.   Bob Hendley
Stulz' doghouse days predate any pennant race. He is even buried behind McDonald and Elbert for heaven's sake, let alone JJJ, and was just sitting there when they went out and got Maddux. I can still remember the disgust on Torre's face when he pulled him in the COL game. Jeez.
2008-09-20 10:08:09
36.   Bob Timmermann
I wouldn't suggest visiting the UK with that attitude.
2008-09-20 10:11:09
37.   Bob Hendley
Visiting Americans are always expected to tip; they let locals slide in Europe.
2008-09-20 10:12:48
38.   berkowit28
33 No subjunctive there. That's the conditional.
2008-09-20 10:12:48
39.   Icaros

Really? I've always been told that tipping doesn't happen in Europe. Not like my money would be worth anything to them anyway. I might as well bring monopoly cash.

2008-09-20 10:13:34
40.   Bob Timmermann
And I would be in Section 166 for the putative Game 3 of the NLCS. Unless the Cubs lose their LDS to the Mets or Phillies.
2008-09-20 10:14:29
41.   Icaros

These aren't the Hemingway days anymore. That expectation should be reversed.

2008-09-20 10:16:32
42.   Bob Timmermann
If I were standing next to you, I'd be slapping you upside the head with a copy of Strunk & White.
2008-09-20 10:19:06
43.   Bob Timmermann
The Brits definitely like tips, but they won't go out of their way to solicit them. In a lot of restaurants in Europe, there is already a service charge included in your bill.

In Scandinavian countries, they don't like tipping.

Now if you want to go to the land of no tipping, go visit Japan. They'll do just about everything for you without expecting a tip.

They make up for it by just charging an incredible amount.

2008-09-20 10:19:46
44.   Jon Weisman
"Le service est compris."
2008-09-20 10:20:11
45.   berkowit28
Silver lining department: no doubt because it was never close, Martin never got called in, and had a genuine night off. How many times has that happened before - 5?
2008-09-20 10:23:33
46.   Louis in SF
Interesting post and for some reason Stultz who seems like such a nice guy is in the dog house. Throughout September and especially the last two weeks Torre to some degree seems to be auditioning players for possible post season play. You get the distinct feeling that he is not part of that conversation.

Also wonder if the Dodgers are trying for some reason to hide him so he can be traded easier. He becomes the mystery man.

2008-09-20 10:24:13
47.   Eric Stephen
I will be in the top deck for most likely games 3 & 4 of the NLCS.
2008-09-20 10:24:23
48.   berkowit28
42 Now that's more like it! Were there tipping over the internets, I would tip you handsomely, sir. Vive le subjonctif!
2008-09-20 10:28:53
49.   Bob Hendley
39 - Monopoly you say. B. Timmermann has traced the current financial crisis to a generation playing the game with a total disregard for it's banking and real estate regulations.
2008-09-20 10:29:27
50.   Icaros

If things don't go according to plan, I wonder if they'll still let you in to sit up there in the dark and listen to the radio.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-09-20 10:30:36
51.   Icaros

I'm the thimble.

2008-09-20 10:30:47
52.   Bob Timmermann
When I play Monopoly, I use T-bills as money that I purchase directly from the Federal Reserve.
2008-09-20 10:34:04
53.   Bob Hendley
51 - Ok, I'll be the iron, but I get to be banker.
2008-09-20 10:35:43
54.   Bob Timmermann
I have an old school version of Monopoly that has Arthur Burns as the banker.
2008-09-20 10:36:34
55.   Bob Timmermann
I have an even older version of Monopoly that lets you have a run on the bank. But you need a few thousand people to play that version.
2008-09-20 10:38:23
56.   Bob Hendley
52 - You must have the Eisenhower Era version.
2008-09-20 10:42:42
57.   Bob Hendley
What I find quaint is that one can go to jail in Monopoly. Must be a holdover from the Teddy Roosevelt version.
2008-09-20 10:44:03
58.   Bob Timmermann
Jail is the most commonly landed on space on the Monopoly board. That's why the Oranges and Reds are the properties that are the best values. You get a very good ROI on those.
2008-09-20 10:49:14
59.   LU Dodger
52 & 58

as a finance major currently a senior in college who has not laughed in a while due to studies...LOL!

thanks for that

2008-09-20 10:51:41
60.   Bob Timmermann
The new versions of Monopoly don't have cash. The players just quietly agree to pay off each other's mortgages when they default and then pass those around.

It was really hard to get my nephews and nieces involved in that version.

2008-09-20 10:58:01
61.   Tripon

McDonald has the best ERA+ ever. He is at infinite. So good, he's unquantifiable!

2008-09-20 11:08:19
62.   scareduck
0 - Is he so inconsequential that he's hurt and no one bothered to tell us, or even notice?

Stults is not a Big Name and therefore not Worthy of Consideration.

This is how the Ned Colletti Dodgers Do Things.

2008-09-20 11:11:52
63.   scareduck
62 - consequence: unless the Dodgers have rid themselves of at least one farmhand to acquire said player, he won't play. I know that's overstatement, but how else to explain the acquisition of Maddux, and then letting Stults slip into the Pacific (Coast League)?
2008-09-20 11:21:06
64.   cargill06
I would say when you factor in that Stults rakes at the plate, sure I'd rather see him in the rotation.
2008-09-20 11:21:21
65.   Reddog
Does anyone know when we find out what we have to give the Pads for Maddux?

I sure hope its not much.

2008-09-20 11:23:12
66.   Eric Stephen
I believe October 15 is the date, but I could be wrong. Hopefully, we'll be busy on that day.
2008-09-20 11:23:40
67.   Tripon
65 Mid Oct. I believe. That we're trading two prospects instead of just one makes me believe we're trading guys with long shots to make the majors, or will take a longer than normal time to the majors. (Adkins, etc.)
2008-09-20 11:36:08
68.   Andrew Shimmin
Adkins has advanced through the minors pretty quickly. As a starter, I'm surprised to learn. 2008 was not a great year for him, though.
2008-09-20 11:41:44
69.   goofus
[36, 39, et al} I hate tipping, I consider it demeaning and dishonest. Employers should be force to pay employees a fair wage and to list their wares at the actual price you are expected to pay. If you are expected to tip, then he listed his product for less than you actually have to pay. Since a tip is supposedly a gift, not payment for something, I wonder if it would actually be illegal to tip with counterfeit money, especially in a foreign country? Weird thought.
2008-09-20 11:43:25
70.   Bob Timmermann
I believe the US Secret Service would frown upon you trying to leave a tip with counterfeit money.

A lot.

2008-09-20 11:47:29
71.   D4P
My problem with tipping is that is seems arbitrary. Either everyone should get tipped, or no one. And if everyone were tipped, then there'd really be no reason to tip.
2008-09-20 11:50:17
72.   Tripon
71 Restaurants do have informal policies of including cooks in tipping, which is the biggest worry I have. When I leave a tip, who should get it, the guy who served the food, or the guy who actually cooked it?
2008-09-20 11:50:43
73.   Bob Timmermann
During lunch, I watched a major cable news channel that had a graphic underneath a video of various political pundits talking that asked if the presidential campaign had too much "mudsligging."

I hate sligging.

2008-09-20 11:51:39
74.   D4P
When I leave a tip, who should get it, the guy who served the food, or the guy who actually cooked it?

And what about the people who set the table and then clear and was the dishes? When you think about it, the people who actually take your order and bring your food probably do the least work of anyone.

2008-09-20 11:53:12
75.   Bob Timmermann
I thought the tips at a lot of restaurants were pooled. But I suppose it varies.

I'm never sure how the employees get the tip money you leave when you charge your meal.

2008-09-20 11:55:12
76.   scareduck
69 - either you never go to strip clubs, or you've missed the point.
2008-09-20 11:55:24
77.   D4P
Tipping cabbies is the worst. They already charged you an exorbitant rate.
2008-09-20 11:55:53
78.   Jon Weisman
75 - Tips are pooled among the staff. And tips are assumed when calculating the salaries of the staff. If you don't tip, you're giving a true salary cut.
2008-09-20 11:57:55
79.   D4P
Looks like The Ohio State found some men from Troy that they could actually beat this week.
2008-09-20 11:59:52
80.   Andrew Shimmin
Yeah. I've always had it in for those high-on-the-hog living cabbies, too.
2008-09-20 12:02:04
81.   D4P
No telling how many youngsters Antonio Scarpacci drew to cabbiedom.
2008-09-20 12:03:03
82.   Tripon
People who are never tipped: Janitors.
2008-09-20 12:04:01
83.   Bob Timmermann
But here's a quick poll:

How many people have ever tipped an usher at a major league baseball game?

At Dodger Stadium, it doesn't happen too often, but at East Coast parks, especially the New York ones, the ushers pretty much expect one if they show you to your seat or perform a magnanimous task, such as wiping off your seat with a dirty towel.

2008-09-20 12:05:58
84.   trainwreck
Time to beat that school that Bob won't say.
2008-09-20 12:06:00
85.   Tripon
Running out of games but running out of pitchers even faster, interim manager Dale Sveum announced that left-hander CC Sabathia would start Saturday on short rest against Cincinnati. He will be followed to the mound Sunday by Seth McClung.

Perhaps letting C.C. throw so many innings before Sept wasn't the best idea.

2008-09-20 12:06:14
86.   Bob Hendley
Always give a buck.
2008-09-20 12:06:40
87.   Bob Timmermann
I ended that feud last year.
2008-09-20 12:06:57
88.   D4P
Nothing worse than those situations where someone does something for you (that you assume to be part of their job) and then expect to get tipped, when you're not carrying cash and wouldn't have accepted the assistance if you had known you'd be expected to tip.
2008-09-20 12:08:20
89.   Bob Hendley
88 - Yeah, for them.
2008-09-20 12:09:14
90.   trainwreck
Awww. I thought they made your list.
2008-09-20 12:09:28
91.   Icaros

And that's what I've never understood. I pay for the food and service already (because I know the ingredients in my pasta dish do not add up to $15). Now I'm also tipping, so the restaurant owner can take home even more money by paying his employees minimum wage?

2008-09-20 12:11:10
92.   Andrew Shimmin
83- When I worked at the Hollywood Bowl, ushers mostly only got tipped when they carried a picnic basket up the stairs, or provided a corkscrew to people who'd forgotten one. In the cheap seats, where I worked, anyway. Down where the rich people sat, the staff was heavily and senselessly tipped.
2008-09-20 12:11:40
93.   cargill06
Interesting, apperentely Kahlil Bell plans on playing today with no shoulder pads.
2008-09-20 12:13:11
94.   Tripon
People forgot after the Tenn win that Kevin Craft was still Kevin Craft.
2008-09-20 12:14:42
95.   cargill06
94 Arizona -3, usually when something seems too good to be true I have to go the other way. But I just couldn't take UCLA.
2008-09-20 12:16:20
96.   Eric Enders
83 For a tip of $20 the ushers at Shea Stadium will show you to a seat much better than your real seat.
2008-09-20 12:18:18
97.   Icaros

They do lap dances at Shea?

2008-09-20 12:18:57
98.   Bob Hendley
91 - Its a pretty competitive business. Waiters, especially, work for tips (and used to take it all home, before the IRS got wise). The European approach is to include it in the bill, leaving no discretion as regards favoring "better" service.
2008-09-20 12:19:39
99.   Jon Weisman
91 - And yet restaurants have among the highest failure rate of any businesses. It's a mystery!
2008-09-20 12:23:39
100.   Icaros

But I'm expected to tip the same amount, regardless of how I felt about the service. I can't see the tipping system as anything more than another way to shift cost onto the consumer so business owners can increase profits.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-09-20 12:24:49
101.   Eric Enders
The other thing about Stults is that the statement that he "couldn't hold a huge lead" at Coors Field isn't quite right. He was never given a chance to hold the lead. We don't know whether he would have held it or not, since he was taken out waaaaay before it was reasonable to take him out. Which makes me think he was already in the doghouse before that game started.

That game, if you recall, was Torre's magnum opus of clueless managing, in a season full of cluelessness. For no discernible reason, he burned through his bullpen in that game like a crackhead burns through a newly found $100 bill.

The way Stults has been used/not used is completely irrational and has a whiff of personal grudge about it. But then, we were warned by Yankees fans that that's the way Torre goes about his business.

2008-09-20 12:25:15
102.   Icaros

Well, they really aren't a necessary thing. People can eat at home.

2008-09-20 12:26:04
103.   Bob Hendley
97 - And they use a dirty rag to wipe your wet seat!
2008-09-20 12:26:24
104.   cargill06
100 You do nothing illeagal if you don't tip. If you don't like to tip don't tip.
2008-09-20 12:28:11
105.   Jon Weisman
102 - Yep, they sure can.

I'd say this conversation has outlived its usefulness.

I miss the day of Juan Pierre hitting home run.

2008-09-20 12:28:47
106.   Eric Enders
100 But if tipping didn't exist, then the amount would need to be added to the base price of the meal so waiters could make a living wage. When people complain about tips, what they're really complaining about is the distribution process. The total cost to the consumer would be the same even if there were no tips.
2008-09-20 12:29:01
107.   Icaros

That's not my point.

2008-09-20 12:29:51
108.   trainwreck
I like the dumb Arizona players trying to talk smack to a deaf guy.
2008-09-20 12:31:58
109.   Andrew Shimmin
I don't really understand the hidden charge argument. Don't you know, going in, that there's going to be tipping involved? The only real complaint I can see there is that they're making you do the math for yourself. It's not like the real price of a bowl of pasta would drop twenty percent if the owner had to eat the whole of the staff's salary out of the tab. The only thing that would change is that the listed price would go up twenty percent. Or twenty-one percent, to cover the cost of reprinting the menus.
2008-09-20 12:33:35
110.   D4P
What is it about the activities that generally require tips that make them different from the activities that don't generally require tips, specifically with respect to separating the tip out from the full price?
2008-09-20 12:34:01
111.   cargill06
107 My mistake.

If we upped normal meal prices and elimanted the tipping process that would be one step closer to comunism!!

2008-09-20 12:34:42
112.   Bob Timmermann
East Carolina, thank you for playing "I Want to be in A BCS Bowl."

There are parting gifts on your way out.

2008-09-20 12:35:20
113.   Andrew Shimmin
110- Tradition.
2008-09-20 12:35:21
114.   Eric Enders
I see that NASCAR has decided to continue pretending it is a sport by testing the pit crew for steroids.

Uh, way to go, guys.

2008-09-20 12:36:14
115.   KG16
Having formerly worked a tipped job, let me just say this: if not for tips, the cost on the menu would be much higher as the servers and staff would require higher pay, or alternatively the service would be terrible. Also, 91 - you are not just paying for service and ingredients, you are also paying for rent/mortgage, insurance, utilities, and durable and fungible goods needed to run the place.
2008-09-20 12:36:54
116.   Bob Timmermann
So if Arizona beats UCLA today, will the Wildcat fans in attendance today rush the Rose Bowl field. And if so, how many of them will get their heads beaten in by the Rose Bowl security forces?

And has somebody told the Arizona fans that they don't serve alcohol at UCLA games?

Did that keep them away?

2008-09-20 12:36:56
117.   Eric Enders
And hairnets. Don't forget hairnets.
2008-09-20 12:37:30
118.   D4P
OK. So, how/why did the tradition start?
2008-09-20 12:40:29
119.   Bob Timmermann
People ask me, Tevye, how did these traditions start.

And I tell them.

We don't know.

2008-09-20 12:40:37
120.   LAT
*48. berkowit28
42 Now that's more like it! Were there tipping over the internets, I would tip you handsomely, sir. Vive le subjonctif!*

Your in luck! There is tipping over the internet. Its called Paypal and there is a link on the sidebar for it.

2008-09-20 12:42:30
121.   Icaros are not just paying for service and ingredients, you are also paying for rent/mortgage, insurance, utilities, and durable and fungible goods needed to run the place.

I am fully aware of this.

2008-09-20 12:43:07
122.   KG16
The key for UCLA, it appears, is to avoid playing teams from the great State of Utah
2008-09-20 12:43:20
123.   Bob Hendley
101 - Yeah, it didn't make much sense in the context of the game; must have been a carryover, but from when? Against FLA, in the previous start, he gave up some dingers and three runs in the first, but then shut them down for the next five before being lifted after 106 pitches. His only other "bad" game is when he gave up 3 in an inning to the Stros. In his other three starts he was pretty effective, including his shutout of the White Sox.
2008-09-20 12:44:06
124.   cargill06
Dear Fox,

Could you please wait for the anthem to finish before making someone report.


2008-09-20 12:44:35
125.   Bob Timmermann
For some reason, I think Willie Tuitama has been Arizona's quarterback for seven years.

I think I'm mistaken.

2008-09-20 12:45:06
126.   LAT
Those of you complaining about tipping have never worked as a waiter or bartender. (You have also never had a lap dance.) Management assumes the patron will tip and set the salary accordingly. Jon is correct, the failure to tip is actually reducing someone's pay. That why they call it "stiffing" someone. Assuming the service is not suspect, you are actually cheating your waiter if you don't tip an acceptable amount.
2008-09-20 12:45:21
127.   KG16
isn't there a better game than ND-MichSt that ABC could show today?
2008-09-20 12:46:31
128.   Bob Timmermann
I wonder if Tony Jackson tips the Dodger Stadium elevator operator at the end of the season?
2008-09-20 12:46:48
129.   Bob Hendley
126 - There is a joke in there, but I am not going to touch it.
2008-09-20 12:48:16
130.   Bob Timmermann
2008-09-20 12:48:32
131.   cargill06
128 Or if Rosenthanl tips the peanut vendors for his trade info.
2008-09-20 12:48:47
132.   Icaros

You're not even paying attention to what I've written. All I'm asking is why should the owner make more money by paying his/her employees less? I don't tip at Home Depot. Why should a restaurant or bar be different?

2008-09-20 12:50:38
133.   D4P
I don't tip at Home Depot. Why should a restaurant or bar be different?

That's what I'm getting at, too. Until demonstrated otherwise, we should tip everywhere or nowhere. In order to tip somewhere but not everywhere, there must be some compelling reason for the difference.

2008-09-20 12:51:18
134.   trainwreck
It's like we traveled into the film Reservoir Dogs.
2008-09-20 12:52:15
135.   KG16
134 - Toby Choo, Toby Choo
2008-09-20 12:52:37
136.   Icaros

Should I start on the true meaning of Madonna's "Like a Virgin"?

2008-09-20 12:52:53
137.   Bob Hendley
I'd tip at Home Depot, but I can never find anyone.
2008-09-20 12:54:14
138.   Eric Enders
132 You don't seem to be listening to what everyone else is saying, either. If there were no tipping, prices would have to be raised. The restaurant owner would be making exactly the same amount of money. Absent tipping, you'd simply give the tip money to the restaurant owner first, who would then pass it on to the wait staff. Ends up in the same place either way.

It's not like there are hordes of restaurant owners out there lining their pockets with illicit tip money. The fact that they go out of business so often goes to show you that most restaurant owners aren't rolling around in piles of cash like Scrooge McDuck.

2008-09-20 12:54:27
139.   LAT
What I will say about tipping is this: Using a percentage of the bill is an arbitrary method of calculating the tip. Why should the guy who brought you a steak for dinner get twice as much as the waitress who brought you your eggs for breakfast.
2008-09-20 12:55:00
140.   KG16
132 - the owner is not making more by paying his employees less. If he paid his employees more, the cost of that would be passed on to the consumer in the end price. Good businesses have a knack for passing their costs on to consumers.
2008-09-20 12:55:05
141.   Bob Hendley
Boy, I noticed that Tipping Thoughts really gained steam when Jon told us to stop.
2008-09-20 12:56:07
142.   goofus
[106) Just principle. And we probably wouldn't pay the same amount; given the greed factor most businessmen are cursed (?) with, we'd probably end up paying more.
2008-09-20 12:56:36
143.   Icaros
Absent tipping, you'd simply give the tip money to the restaurant owner first, who would then pass it on to the wait staff. Ends up in the same place either way.

And I'd be fine with that. Why would this mean prices have to raised, as you state earlier?

2008-09-20 12:56:57
144.   KG16
USC vs Florida is going to be a really good BCS Title game.
2008-09-20 12:57:11
145.   Andrew Shimmin
As long as it's just a philosophical argument, and not a practical one, I don't have a problem with it. I'm also not sure I take the point. It's okay for things to work differently from other things. Nice restaurants let you sit and wait at a table while they get around to taking your order; at McDonalds, you wait in line at the counter, and have to pay in advance. Everybody going in to either place knows how it works. Do we need uniformity in meal ordering procedures, too?
2008-09-20 12:58:43
146.   Bob Hendley
142 - Is the businessman anymore "greedy" than the consumer that wants to pay less for what they could make at home anyway or who doesn't want to tip?
2008-09-20 12:59:27
147.   Eric Enders
"Do we need uniformity in meal ordering procedures, too?"

I'll take a chicken salad sandwich, but hold the chicken...

2008-09-20 12:59:30
148.   Icaros

To make that more clear. I buy a $15 dollar dish and walk out having paid $20, including tip. Am I a bad person for wanting to just be charged $20 in the first place?

2008-09-20 13:00:00
149.   Bob Hendley
145 - And you get to bus your own table!
2008-09-20 13:00:05
150.   KG16
NFL fans in Houston may be confused this year by the bright orange ball in the sky as they watch their team play football games.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-09-20 13:01:44
151.   D4P
I wonder if there's a psychological aspect involved, where restaurant owners believe that you're more likely to buy a $15 dish (and then tip $5) than you would be to buy the same dish for $20 (with no tip).

While we're on the subject: why can gas stations get away with advertising prices with 9/10 of a cent...?

2008-09-20 13:06:12
152.   RELX
96 . Worked as vendor at Shea Stadium in the late 1980s and was friendly with many ushers. Their seat scams were extremely well-organized, and coordinated among several ushers at a time, so that they could locate, then sell, empty seats throughout the stadium. (This was when the Mets were a very hot ticket.)

Now, adding my 18% to the tipping discussion:

I worked as a waiter in several different cities during my globe-hopping lost years--we're talking 15-20 years ago. In every place I worked, I was paid an hourly wage that was below federal minimum wage--there was actually a special minimum wage for waitstaff--so almost all of my money came from tips. I never pooled tips--in the places I worked, everybody was confident that they were the "best" waiter, and didn't want to be dragged down by the "poor" ones. In addition, every restaurant I worked gave you the money for credit card tips at the end of the evening. In one place that I worked--in New Orleans--we would throw a few dollars to the busboys, and sometimes, a few bucks to the kitchen staff, if it had been a really busy night.

For those who don't want to tip, you are only hurting struggling underpaid workers--the restaurants make their money exclusively off sales of food and liquor.

Now, back to baseball...

2008-09-20 13:06:20
153.   trainwreck
Damn you, Wildcats!
2008-09-20 13:07:14
154.   Eric Enders
"To make that more clear. I buy a $15 dollar dish and walk out having paid $20, including tip. Am I a bad person for wanting to just be charged $20 in the first place?"

No. An easily displeased person, perhaps, but not a bad one.

Where you veered off course was the rant about how the greedy restaurant owners are making more money. If you've stipulated already that your total amount is going to be $20 either way, and that the waitstaff is getting $5 of that, where is all the supposed extra money coming from?

2008-09-20 13:09:20
155.   Bob Hendley
151 - In Mexico you tip the guy who pumps your gas. In the US, well...
2008-09-20 13:10:45
156.   Icaros
I'm pretty sure I tip better than 98% of the population, for the record. I just don't understand the system. I read 152 and wonder why the owner can pay less than minimum wage.

If restaurants are that hard to keep afloat, we should have less of them.

2008-09-20 13:11:31
157.   D4P
Oregon went for 2-points after scoring the first points (on a touchdown) of the game.

Is "6" really on the "When to go for 2" chart...?

2008-09-20 13:11:55
158.   KG16
So, what's the magic number again, 5 or 6?
2008-09-20 13:12:55
159.   KG16
I think the tip wage exception no longer exists.
2008-09-20 13:13:14
160.   KG16
157 - it was in the AFL
2008-09-20 13:13:18
161.   Icaros

I think in some cases they are greedy, but I'm thinking more of places like CPK and The Olive Garden than I am some family-owned bistro.

2008-09-20 13:13:25
162.   goofus
It's more complicated than all that. At one time waitresses etc. just declared their tips to IRS and paid taxes. On what they declared, which was usually less than they actually received. Now, if I understand the procedure correctly, the owner must keep track of how much money each waitress billed the customers for, the IRS charges a certain percentage of that amount against said waitress as tip income. The owner can use that supposed income to cut her actual pay (from him) to less than the legal minimum wage. He can also charge her for meals and breakage. In my opinion it is just a dirty, overly complex business that would fit my buttoned-down mind better if tipping were outlawed and owners had to pay whatever actual wage the servers require and stated prices are real.
2008-09-20 13:14:34
163.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers magic number is 6.
2008-09-20 13:15:21
164.   KG16
So, no chance of clinching tonight?
2008-09-20 13:15:31
165.   Bob Timmermann
The Red Sox will not clinch a playoff spot today after losing to Toronto. The Rays and Cubs can clinch playoff spots with wins. The Cubs can also clinch a playoff spot with a Brewers loss.
2008-09-20 13:15:38
166.   trainwreck
He wants to be like Shanahan.
2008-09-20 13:16:17
167.   Bob Timmermann
Only if the Dodgers sweep their quadrupleheader and the Rockies get swept in their doubleheader.
2008-09-20 13:17:04
168.   D4P
"Let's play four"
2008-09-20 13:17:55
169.   D4P
Oregon apparently just punted for 3 yards.
2008-09-20 13:17:59
170.   KG16
167 - can't they just do two triple headers?
2008-09-20 13:18:26
171.   KG16
169 - in the words of Andrew: Stupid wind.
2008-09-20 13:24:03
172.   cargill06
Found this intersting, my buddies are all over me about how bad Andy LaRoche is it forced me to look this up.

Dustin Pedroia's first 170 AB's- .165/.251/.341
Andy LaRoche this year in 195 AB's-

I'm sure there are many other cases like Pedroia too that start off really slow than have great careers. I know Tulo was probably around a .630 OPS his first 200 AB's

2008-09-20 13:27:09
173.   scareduck
16 - all of which goes to show that the 16th amendment was a horrible, horrible mistake.
2008-09-20 13:28:03
174.   larry slimfast
16 Sushi, twerp... I live in Nashville
2008-09-20 13:33:14
175.   Andrew Shimmin
SufferingBruin was nearly the Karate Kid, but scareduck really was the star of the Blade trilogy.
2008-09-20 13:34:07
176.   Bob Timmermann
Yahoo's box score says Oregon's punt went for four yards.
2008-09-20 13:39:56
177.   tethier
82 People who are never tipped: Janitors.

At the school that I work at, 4 or 5 teachers get together at Christmas to tip the janitor who cleans our rooms. He appreciates it a lot.

2008-09-20 13:39:56
178.   Bob Timmermann
Jim Caple of listed Autzen Stadium as one of the 100 most important sports facilities in the U.S. and ranked it ahead of Dodger Stadium.
2008-09-20 13:42:26
179.   Bob Timmermann
Jimmy Clausen is off to a start that makes me happy.

Very happy.

2008-09-20 13:47:12
180.   Tripon
I predict a career change for Jimmy Clausen. Say hello to a future Cubs pitcher.
2008-09-20 13:52:22
181.   cargill06
179 Why the hatred for JC? I'm guessing it probably has something to do with his sense of entitlement? Or the fact he thinks his feices don't stink?
2008-09-20 13:52:24
182.   trainwreck
Hope you were not planning on staying in Knoxville another year, Phil Fulmer.
2008-09-20 13:56:38
183.   Tripon
Maybe the Raiders and Knoxville will make a trade of Lane Kiffin and Phil Fulmer.
2008-09-20 13:58:26
184.   cargill06
If anyone owns NCAA '09 please tell me what Kevin Crafts awareness is. It shouldn't be over 40
2008-09-20 14:00:59
185.   trainwreck
2008-09-20 14:04:23
186.   Bob Timmermann
Jimmy Clausen is the QB for Notre Dame. Notre Dame is the most evil college football program ever created. By logical extension in my mind, Jimmy Clausen is epitome of evil.

Rules 6 and 7 do not apply to me and my hatred of Notre Dame.

2008-09-20 14:04:25
187.   Alex41592
Cubs are in great position to clinch up 5-0 in the 4th.

Rays are up 2-0 in the 4th.

2008-09-20 14:05:24
188.   D4P
Jim Caple of listed Autzen Stadium as one of the 100 most important sports facilities in the U.S. and ranked it ahead of Dodger Stadium

I saw that the other day. Something about how Autzen has internet ports or some such thing.

2008-09-20 14:05:58
189.   trainwreck
Is there a reason to not hate Jimmy Clausen?
2008-09-20 14:08:18
190.   Bob Timmermann
Young Mr. Clausen could be in Knoxville like his older brothers.

And probably faring just as poorly. But scouts were calling him the greatest high school QB ever.

Although I know not why.

2008-09-20 14:11:31
191.   scareduck
In Cincinnati, the Brewers' 3B coach decides to send Prince Fielder home from second on a single up the middle with the Reds' OF playing shallow. Fielder was dead from me to you, but he punched the Reds' catcher in the helmet on the way in.

The frustration is palpable.

2008-09-20 14:12:26
192.   scareduck
175 - huh? The only connection I have to the Blade series is I know Marv Wolfman.
2008-09-20 14:15:13
193.   Andrew Shimmin
192- Wesley Snipes is (or was; hard to say) very publicly anti-sixteenth amendment.
2008-09-20 14:16:02
194.   scareduck
192 - or at least his advisors are. Now I get it.
2008-09-20 14:16:31
195.   Bob Timmermann
I have changed my stance and now oppose the 3rd Amendment.

I really would feel safer with a couple of Marines bunking in my house. Could I make them clean out the catbox?

2008-09-20 14:19:40
196.   Andrew Shimmin
195- D4P hates the 19th.
2008-09-20 14:32:15
197.   Alex41592
Troy Glaus silences Wrigley with a three run shot cutting the Cubs lead to one. 5-4 Top 6.
2008-09-20 14:44:12
198.   Icaros

Those Marines better not be getting my room!

2008-09-20 14:47:22
199.   D4P
I'm just opposed to stupid women voting.
2008-09-20 14:50:52
200.   Andrew Shimmin
I'm starting to get the feeling that UCLA isn't going to win this game. Can't put my finger on it--it's just a gut instinct thing.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-09-20 14:51:34
201.   Bob Timmermann
Why does the University of Arizona even need to exist?
2008-09-20 14:51:55
202.   sporky
Thanks to trainwreck's friend's friend's boyfriend's coworker, I get to go to my first Dodger game tonight!
2008-09-20 14:54:02
203.   trainwreck
Kevin Bacon has to be involved in some way.
2008-09-20 14:54:24
204.   KG16
202 - first game of the year, or ever?
2008-09-20 14:55:43
205.   sporky
203 It's entirely possible I need to thank your friend's friend's girlfriend's coworker. Either way, I'm grateful.

204 First game at Dodger Stadium. Ever.

2008-09-20 14:56:43
206.   trainwreck
I believe that is the case.
2008-09-20 14:56:59
207.   Andrew Shimmin
199- Hands off, ladies, he's married!
2008-09-20 14:57:49
208.   Bob Timmermann
At least Notre Dame is getting shut out.

But the Irish need to finish with a record of at least 8-4 or they will get put in a BCS bowl.

2008-09-20 14:59:30
209.   Bob Timmermann
Micah Owings pinch hitting for Paul Janish against Sabathia.
2008-09-20 15:00:44
210.   Bob Timmermann
Owings delivers a 2-run single to put the Reds up 3-2.
2008-09-20 15:00:49
211.   Alex41592
209 - Unbelievable. He singles in two.
2008-09-20 15:00:54
212.   cargill06
Micah Owings comes through with a big hit, 2 run single.

3-2 Cin bot 6

2008-09-20 15:01:44
213.   cargill06
Darn it, I'll never be quick enough.
2008-09-20 15:03:43
214.   Alex41592
Cubs are three outs from the division.
2008-09-20 15:08:26
215.   Bob Timmermann
Now Notre Dame has scored. My entire day is ruined.
2008-09-20 15:09:07
216.   Andrew Shimmin
UCLA should hire me as a punting consultant. I could explain how important it is to kick the ball out of bounds if your coverage team is bad at tackling people. My fee would be negotiable.
2008-09-20 15:10:24
217.   Bob Timmermann
UCLA's punt coverage team has turned every Arizona return guy into Maurice Drew.
2008-09-20 15:14:02
218.   Andrew Shimmin
2008-09-20 15:14:05
219.   Bob Timmermann
The Pac-10 will be lucky to get a team bowl eligible for the Holiday Bowl this year.
2008-09-20 15:15:32
220.   Andrew Shimmin
Drew-Jones, I meant. Except now it's Jones-Drew, for some reason.

2008-09-20 15:16:27
221.   trainwreck
At least we aren't Tennessee.
2008-09-20 15:17:18
222.   tethier
lineup per ITD:

Martin, C

Ethier, RF

Manny, LF

Loney, 1B

Blake, 3B

Kemp, CF

DeWitt, 2B

Berroa, SS

Kuroda, P

2008-09-20 15:18:31
223.   Alex41592
Cubs are one out away.
2008-09-20 15:19:08
224.   Alex41592
Cubs are the N.L Central division champions.
2008-09-20 15:19:14
225.   Andrew Shimmin
Wrong again. It was always Jones-Drew, after it stopped being just Jones. Names are the worst.
2008-09-20 15:22:58
226.   trainwreck
Michigan State must have the same tackling coaches as UCLA.
2008-09-20 15:25:07
227.   Daniel Zappala
Why didn't Oregon put in Darron Thomas earlier instead of Chris Harper? Oregon trying for a major comeback.
2008-09-20 15:27:11
228.   Daniel Zappala
BYU's last two games: 103 - 0.
2008-09-20 15:29:17
229.   Bob Timmermann
Yes, but one of them was against UCLA. That was like beating up on a 1-AA team.
2008-09-20 15:29:18
230.   cargill06
228 That's good for their pathg. record at the end of the year.
2008-09-20 15:42:00
231.   Daniel Zappala
Oh well, Oregon won't be able to do it.
2008-09-20 15:42:54
232.   Daniel Zappala
229 Bob, don't rain on my parade. My son's soccer game already got canceled today due to lightning.
2008-09-20 15:44:02
233.   trainwreck
I wonder how much longer the Kevin Craft era has left?
2008-09-20 15:45:05
234.   twerp
If you don't follow SEC football very closely, it's easy to think Tennessee still is an elite football program. But that horse left the barn a few years back.

Fulmer lost his first 5 games to Florida but not another SEC game 4 of those years. Yet against current SEC coaches Fulmer is only 28-26. Against Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Les Miles, Steve Spurrier, and Tommy Tuberville, he's a combined 10-19, soon to be 10-20 and to include Florida's third straight.

Today aside, losing 59-20 to Florida and 41-17 to so-so Alabama of last year had him in probably the most jeopardy of his career. But that team clocked Georgia in Knoxville, closed with several narrow wins, won the SEC East and a minor bowl game, and Fulmer got a semi-ringing endorsement/extension.

It extends him any year he wins 8. Fulmer is a homeboy and all that, but 8 wins isn't going to cut it with fans. If things don't turn around very quickly--read win out or something, which I don't think this team can do based on how it has looked so far--the fans will begin not to fill the 106,000 seat stadium. Last week there were 28,000 or so no-shows last week vs. UAB after the team's dismal performance vs UCLA. Eroding the football cash cow will get Fulmer gone quicker than his record.

UT doesn't appear to belong on the same field with Florida, and there have been several obvious UT coaching issues today. The team appears clueless in several ways. That kind of thing always gets laid directly at the feet of the coaches, usually deservedly so.

As a bitter Johnny Majors said a few years back in commenting on some aspect of UT football, "if it required genius, it wouldn't happen at Tennessee."

So much for Fulmer thoughts, I guess.

2008-09-20 15:46:27
235.   twerp
Make that Florida's fourth straight.
2008-09-20 15:48:58
236.   Bob Timmermann
So it was easier for UCLA to beat Tennessee than it was for them to match up against BYU or Arizona?

That's scary.

Especially when you consider Arizona. That team is not very good.

And I hear Greg Brock almost got into a fight with a Wildcat fan. Sadly, cooler heads prevailed.

I hate the Cooler Heads.

2008-09-20 15:53:05
237.   trainwreck
Awwww, now that would have been good.
2008-09-20 15:53:43
238.   sporky
Kevin, stop licking your lips during interviews.
2008-09-20 15:57:53
239.   das411
So....where exactly did the Brewers go wrong this year?

Or was it last year, trading all of those arms for Linebrink and then replacing both he and Cordero with, um, Eric Gagne?

2008-09-20 15:59:18
240.   madmac
uncle miltie, you around
2008-09-20 16:04:32
241.   madmac
231 maybe one good thing came out of that game. Hopefully Darron Thomas remains the starting QB (and healthy)
2008-09-20 16:06:54
242.   madmac
227 I'm wondering if they were hoping to redshirt him this year. I think from this point on he's the man though. Probably gives the Ducks the better chance of beating the Trojans. I'm trying to look on the bright side.
2008-09-20 16:07:38
243.   madmac
wait, isn't this Duck Thoughts
2008-09-20 16:08:17
244.   Bob Timmermann
The Brewers stopped hitting. That doesn't bode well.
2008-09-20 16:08:39
245.   Bob Timmermann
Rabbit Thoughts!
2008-09-20 16:12:49
246.   madmac
good to see you Bob, I was feeling lonely on this beautiful Saturday
2008-09-20 16:20:33
247.   Linkmeister
Say, I'm too lazy to look it up at Yahoo Sports; who won the Arizona-UCLA game today?


2008-09-20 16:25:07
248.   Bob Timmermann
I guess it's beautiful. I'm stuck at work.
2008-09-20 16:35:28
249.   Bob Timmermann
Matt Holliday out of the lineup for the Rockies today with a bad back.
2008-09-20 16:37:37
250.   Jon Weisman
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-09-20 16:43:29
251.   LogikReader
Here's another dumb question from the pen of Logikreader:

I believe, when the Division Series round begins, the team with the best record in the League plays the Wild Card team.


Why wouldn't they instead play the team with the worst record? You can still make the exception if that team is in the same division. To me, that makes more sense.

So, as I interpret it, let's say the season ended today, the Cubbies would play the Phillies, not the Dodgers. And then the Mets would play the Dodgers instead. So why not switch-- WHOA, I just answered my own question!

2008-09-20 19:24:00
252.   Sam in SC
kiroda doesn't have it tonight

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