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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

My Takeaway
2008-10-13 21:11
by Jon Weisman

In between the bitter gloom of walking out of my office at 4:15 p.m., realizing I had left my tickets to tonight's game at home and spending the next 95 minutes in the car, and the same feeling upon seeing the Dodgers turn over a lead for the third time in four NLCS games, there was a moment I'll never forget.

Casey Blake homered to break the 3-3 tie, and the crowd erupted. I was holding my 6 1/2-month-old son up in the air, and he was shouting his lungs out, right with everyone else. The little man roar. It was priceless.

Comments (394)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-10-13 21:25:47
1.   Johnny Nucleo
Whatever happens, I've loved watching the Dodgers this year.
2008-10-13 21:26:30
2.   I Heard Ron Cey to Steve Howe Davey Lopes
0 And images like that are why Dodger Thoughts will continue to be everyone's favourite place to "deal psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball" (and let it be said - life).
Thanks Jon!
2008-10-13 21:27:30
3.   Humma Kavula
0 and 1 You said it.

The Dodgers should go out and play Game 5 like the season depends on it, and win or lose, they can hold their heads up high.

We have made our season ticket deposit for next year.

2008-10-13 21:28:46
4.   underdog
Nice perspective check, Jon. :-)

I've got a purring cat in my lap and "Mad Men" on my Tivo, so I will use that to gain further perspective.

It's been a fun ride, and I have faith it won't be over for awhile longer. But for now... life has other things to offer us.

2008-10-13 21:28:47
5.   Humma Kavula
I was watching this one on television with Spawn of Kavula (11 months on Thursday). She also enjoyed the Blake homer beyond her own comprehension. The first six innings of this game, watching with my family, was a true joy.
2008-10-13 21:31:46
6.   CodyS
1 I agree. The Dodgers 2008 has been a great year, no matter what else happens. We showed we were credible threats to be world champions. Just a really small amount of luck more here and there and the Dodgers would have done even better, but the team is fundamentally pretty good and the future is bright. (As long as somebody continues Manny's Aug-Sep pace for all of 2009, .400 with 50 HR and 160 RBI, but let's not think about that now.)
2008-10-13 21:32:53
7.   oshea2002
Back to the earlier thread - comparing baseball to basketball is totally wrong. You fall down 3-1 w/o home court in hoops - you are done. Completely. There are tons of examples of teams winning 6 and 7 on the road - Pitt in 79 I think, KC over Toronto in 85, Fish over Cubs in 03, Sox over Yanks in 04. I'm sure there's more. If we could somehow get to game 7, they'd have a ton of pressure on them.
2008-10-13 21:33:05
8.   Rob M
This was an epic night of Dodger baseball. It's going to have a prominent place in my memory archives.

0 That's a great image. Thanks again (and again, and again) for this site. I've been following the Dodgers all my life but this place has somehow heightened my fandom, though I would have never guessed that was possible.

Let's get 'em on Wednesday!

2008-10-13 21:33:56
9.   trainwreck
Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes, well he eats you.
2008-10-13 21:34:12
10.   ImprobableImpossible
"Jon Weisman's outlet for dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball."

I don't have a 6 1/2-month-old son, but I was 10 when Jack Clark crushed all of our hearts.

I feel 10 again.

2008-10-13 21:34:44
11.   dontraiseplz
I had typed out a rational post that could give a different perspective to all the second guessing but then I erased it all.

In short, I have been reading 'Fooled By Randomness' lately and its important to not question what could've been rational decisions simply because they had devastating results.

IMO, the worst tactical move with hit and run with Juan Pierre in the 2nd. Why not just let a top-5 base stealer make decisions?

2008-10-13 21:34:50
12.   dodgerkramer1
Let's face it, the Phillies are better than the Dodgers. Philadelphia's lineup is extremely potent, and if you fall behind in the count, they make you pay. Even their pinch-hitters are scary.

The Phillies deserve to play in the World Series, so an early congrats goes out to them and their fans.

I hate looking for excuses after losing games, but there are a couple things I'll always remember about Game 4...

--Why did Torre pull Derek Lowe after five innings? Certainly Lowe had one more inning in him, didn't he? Lowe was cruising in innings two through five.

--Why did Torre pull Kuo after Howard's leadoff single in the eighth? I'll take my chances with Kuo over Wade/Broxton any day -- especially considering Wade pitched two innings the night before. Kuo is one of the best relief pitchers in the majors, and he had an EASY seventh inning.

--I hate to say it, but the Dodgers might have to seriously consider giving Manny Ramirez the 5-year, $125 million contract he so covets. We just don't have much of an offense without him, and frankly I don't see it getting a whole lot better in the years to come. Without Manny, we're probably a .500 team again next season.

2008-10-13 21:35:31
13.   Humma Kavula
I don't mean to say that this loss isn't devastating. I haven't yet gotten over it, despite what I'm about to say...

Game 5 has the potential to be the most fun game of the season. The Dodgers' chances of advancing to the World Series are so small that I've almost -- almost -- given up. Not quite... but I certainly recognize that it's extremely likely that this year isn't the Dodgers' year. Still, there's this tiny shread of possibility, and it comes to fruition on Wednesday in Game 5. A win is a huge morale boost, and a loss is something that was probably coming anyway. Game 5 will be the lowest risk, highest reward game of the season, and when you consider the fact that it's Billingsley vs. Hamels, that's even better. It could be the most fun game of the year.

2008-10-13 21:35:42
14.   nofatmike
From last thread:

1074 "Yikes, Alice. I take it you're too young to have suffered through the Jack Clark game or the Joe Morgan game and countless other painful memories?"

Yeah, but if you suffered through the Jack Clark HR, chances are that you also were "suffering" when Tommy sent up Mike Davis to hit against Dennis Eckersley. Fans my age don't have that luxury.

2008-10-13 21:35:53
15.   KG16
things could be much worse, guys. we could be watching the D'Backs with a 3-1 lead in the NLCS.
2008-10-13 21:43:25
16.   RELX
One thing that the Dodger's offense glaringly lacks is power. While the Phillies won tonight's game on two swings of the bat, other than Manny, there is really no one on the Dodgers that is a consistent power threat. Kemp, Ethier, Loney, Martin, Furcal, DeWitt, are all 15-20 a year homer guys, and the team really needs at least two legitimate 30+ homer threats to make this a top rate offense. Even if they sign Manny, I think they need one more bopper.
2008-10-13 21:43:40
17.   JoeyP
Hopefully Broxton doesnt get a mental block ala Lidge/Pujols for the next few years.

That ball Stairs hit was one of the longest homers I've ever seen hit at DS.

Wade's been great all season. Not giving up homers. It had to end at some point.

2008-10-13 21:44:23
18.   oshea2002
The Jack Clark HR was my first year as a fan. I spent the rest of fall with Tom Neidenfuer's baseball card on my bike spokes. It can be a gut wrenching game, but if you had told me 3 months ago we'd be down 3-1 in the NLCS - I'd ask "where do I sign and how much do I have to pay."

I'm excited for Game 5 - primarily for Bills. He's got a shot to bounce back and show the rest of the country just what a great pitcher he is (in case they missed the first series).

2008-10-13 21:44:39
19.   Frip
Baseball is so random, there's no telling how this will end up.
2008-10-13 21:45:42
20.   gibsonhobbs88
Why, oh Why did they pull Kuo? One little harmless single in the 8th, he was the most dominating reliever they had tonight!! I feel bad for Wade because he has been great for us all year, unforunate pitch selection allowed Victorino just enough power to pull that ball over the gate.

Well, backs against the wall now! Got to play with nothing to lose, balls out!! Try to win your last home game at least!! Still it was one of the most aggravating losses I've witnessed in awhile. Just when they got my hopes up to the zenith, they sent them crashing into despair!! Broxton throwing that total "meat fastball" to a veteran pinch-hitter like Stairs on 3-1! He had a better chance to walk him and pitch to Rollins!! The 8th inning nightmare started with Torre walking out to relieve Kuo, Damn!!

2008-10-13 21:47:14
21.   ucladodger
I'm at least glad that people are reporting that Torre is getting criticized. I just couldnt understand most of the stuff he did tonight. Pulling a well rested Hong-Chih Kuo who was throwing absolutely brilliantly for a tired, overworked righty with average stuff who relies on location and deception is just a move that I will never be able to understand. Cory Wade has been a revelation this year and I do not blame tonight's outcome on him. He has been great each time he was called upon. He was just called on one too many times, and it might have cost the dodgers their season.
2008-10-13 21:48:00
22.   PDH5204
Re 1079 of the game thread:

You might try the '85 Royals. Came back from 3-1 in both the AL playoff and the WS. But we don't have Danny Jackson to say, We shocked the house!, when the team wins it all.

Lastly, for one and all, for Joe to say that if he had it to do all over again...

For what makes it inexcusable, well, in his post-game remarks Joe referenced Kuo's arm woes and said something about how every time he pitches he feels something. Fine. Then why on earth warm him yesterday and then not bring him in? Pathetic.

2008-10-13 21:49:21
23.   RELX
21 . It is well known that Torre is not a good tactical manager, and that bullpen use is one of his weaker points. This was a criticism of him all through his Yankee years.
2008-10-13 21:54:09
24.   ucladodger
Another thing about the Kuo issue and then I'm done for the night. why in the world have him bat with men on 1st and 2nd and 1 out and then have him stay in for only 1 batter? The plan couldnt have been for him to sacrifice bunt and waste an out and then only face Howard if Howard gets on. A 2 run lead isnt much as we saw, and giving away an out so Kuo could face one batter was another huge mistake. Either you let him sacrifice and complete the next inning or you lift him for a pinch hitter in that spot. Too bad Kemp's rocket (or Dewitt's, or Martin's) didnt find a gap because then I doubt we are having this conversation and would be talking about our advantage the rest of the way.
2008-10-13 21:55:48
25.   Daniel Zappala
I haven't given up hope yet, but a Rays-Phillies World Series would be really strange to see.
2008-10-13 21:57:41
26.   LAT
It was a weird night at the Park. Crowd didn't even wake up until the 3rd or 4th inning. I'm not blaming him and I will stick by the one who brung me this far, but when Russell Martin hit into the DP, you could feel the energy suck right out of Dodger Stadium. Kuo was awesome and while I subscribe to the "go with the hot hand" strategy of managing the bullpen, I can't fault Wade or Torre's decision to bring him in.
2008-10-13 21:58:24
27.   DBrim
I'm too young for Jack Clark and Joe Morgan.

The Matt Stairs shot genuinely hurt me. I thought he had retired until he stepped up to the plate.

2008-10-13 22:01:07
28.   LAT
How can Broxton look like Charlize Theron one night and Rosanne Barr the next?
2008-10-13 22:02:54
29.   I Love LA
Yeah why did Kuo get pulled? I thought that was a bad decision too.
2008-10-13 22:03:02
30.   trainwreck
Based on the amount of beer you drink?
2008-10-13 22:03:11
31.   Crimson Bear
ulcadodger hit it on the head. It just doesn't make sense to let Kuo hit with 2 runners on and then pull him after a single to Howard. Howard couldn't tie the game and after him was a stack of right handed hitters. Either Kuo should have had more rope or he should have been pinch hit for. But the bottom line is that the Dodgers went 11-34 with 8 walks (a nice team .obp) plus 5 or 6 ropes right at people. They should have won the game but baseball is designed to break your heart.
2008-10-13 22:04:04
32.   Louis in SF
According to what I heard Torre say he wasn't questioned much. When Kuo warmed up in the 8th, he didn't look sharp and Torre, if he is telling the truth was only going to give him one batter. I think you just needed to give Kuo another batter or even two.....As far as the team goes for next year, just as the Phillies improved and the Red Sox improved, you usually need to get into the playoffs two years in a row, and I think that is what I am counting on.
2008-10-13 22:05:54
33.   tibbar
Man it feels like 1985. I hope that Wade and/or Broxton don't become unmentionable names around me like Mr. Give up to Clark's name is. I hope there is redemption for the team on Wednesday. I don't want Philly to be dancing on our field.
2008-10-13 22:08:41
34.   LAT
We will have 4 months to discuss the off season. Let's hold off on declaring this season DOA until we are actually done.
2008-10-13 22:08:50
35.   ryu
When Broxton fell behind 3-1 to Stairs, and was winding up for the next pitch, I turned to my brother, "I don't have a good feeling about this."

I think Stairs has been around long enough to know what was coming and hammered it. He'd probably made up his mind to swing no matter what was coming.

2008-10-13 22:10:49
36.   Branch Rickey
11 That is a terrific book that I have mentioned here before. I highly recommend it to everybody but especially baseball fans. Really helps you understand a game like that. Or even a season like this.
2008-10-13 22:10:50
37.   underdog
34 Agreed!

Though right now I wish I was in that car heading to Palm Springs instead of Don Draper.

2008-10-13 22:11:46
38.   JRSarno
There are so many factors that contributed to this loss, it's almost impossible to really point to one as the conclusive reason why this happened. I'll just say that the crowd was absolutely laconic for the first couple of innings. We got down 2-0 because the Phillies slapped our generally lazy, text messaging fans in the face when we weren't looking. Then, we can always talk about RISP failures when we're talking about the Dodgers. DeWitt was non-existent; and Martin (who I do NOT believe should be in the 4 spot, like EVER) hit into a deflating double-play to crush any forward momentum. We had a couple opportunities to extend our 5-3 lead and failed rather miserably -- that proved to be suicide. A 2 run lead is just not comforting. Then, the bullpen merry-go-round. My, oh, my. That was active mismanagement of Quo if I've ever seen it. Torre warmed him up yesterday, then nothing. Now he pitches him tonight, he was LIGHTS OUT, leaves him into bat (okay...?), and then pulls him with one out -- which ultimately spawned a downhill roller coaster of horror with Wade and Brox. Just too much fumbling around, methinks. I do not believe that we can pull off 3 in a row against this team, but I'm darn proud of what we accomplished this year. (And hey, Pierre McSlappy got some good hits tonight!) Anyway, I'll be rooting my guts out on Wednesday, but this was a game that can be best described as: SQUANDERED.
2008-10-13 22:12:24
39.   LAT
I think we win on Wed. Reasons why:

1. Day off favors Dodgers. Time to regroup and rest.

2. Bills is at his best when his is relaxed.

3. Dodgers have nothing to lose.

4. Hamels is overdue to lose.

2008-10-13 22:14:06
40.   jasonungar07
I think we will Wed as well, but I doubt we win 2 in Philly.
2008-10-13 22:16:07
41.   jasonungar07
First the lakers blow a 26 point lead in the finals and now this one. Ouch. Good to know both teams are young and have bright futures. So we hope.
2008-10-13 22:17:15
42.   LAT
38. You are probably right but one step at a time.
2008-10-13 22:18:22
43.   tibbar
I think what makes this worse for me is not having Vin do the play by play. Maybe I should have held soccer practice tonight. sigh. Well here is to a minor miracle happening the rest of the week.
2008-10-13 22:18:36
44.   underdog
Sounds like we're all in agreement that Kuo should've been left in. Motion carried.
2008-10-13 22:19:17
45.   DBrim
44 - And Lowe.
2008-10-13 22:21:48
46.   das411
You rock, Jon, posts like this (especially right when it's needed most) are the reason this is the best baseball blog on the 'net. I really am rooting, for the collective sanity of DTers everywhere, that Billz has more luck against the Phils tomorrow than he did in Game 2 because I don't think DT is ready to go into postseason mode quite yet...

25 - Stranger than, say, Rockies v Red Sox, Yankees vs Marlins/DBacks, ChiSox v Astros or Angels v Giants were?

2008-10-13 22:24:49
47.   Bob Hendley
Really looking forward to the next game and the rest of the series, as I am rooting for the boys. I just wish that I could make sense of Torre's moves that don't seem to be helpful. Though he is should be able to pitch two nights in a row, I thought that Broxton was wasted last night. I would have tried to conserve him as I (wrongly) thought that Joe wouldn't bring in Wade tonight. Both Lowe and Kuo were pulled too soon for my taste, as well. Finally, Joe tried to give away outs by having both Kemp and Rafi sacrafice. The Fillies wouldn't take the outs, but the baseball gods did with our subsequent line drives. He seems to have a different game in his head and a different feeling in his gut than I do. Oh well, we'll get em next time.
2008-10-13 22:25:23
48.   dkminnick
Just got back from a great evening with Eric Stephen, Jacob Burch and MC Safety. Okay, an almost great evening. I don't know if it is because of the excellent company I was able to keep tonight, or something else I don't quite understand yet, but I don't feel that bad about this game.

My sentiments are the same as those already stated by many posters already tonight. It's been a fantastic season even if we have won our last game. It's been so exciting to have these three playoff experiences, and to share two of them with my kids and one with fellow DT'ers. I know my kids will never forget the two wins, but I'm not sure if MC Safety will recover from this one. Chin up, MC!

I said to the guys tonight as Torre came ot for Kuo that I was afraid that Wade had become Torre's new Proctor and that he may be pushing Cory too far. Kuo just looked so dominant, it seemed a shame to pull him. But whatever, it is entirely possible to win the next three.

Thanks Eric, for the ticket and also to Jacob, MC Safety and bhsportsguy and Joe for spending time at lunch. A great day with a disappointing ending. Not the first time and it won't be the last.

2008-10-13 22:26:55
49.   LogikReader
Good post Jon. I can't let go of this. The Dodgers had the best season in 20 years, but this doesn't make tonight hurt less.

I might be the only guy who thinks the Phillies aren't that good. They earned everything they got, but at the end of the day, I'm not convinced by any of their starters besides Hamels, and their lineup has its own 'bouts of streakiness.

What we saw from the bullpen tonight was a choke, plain and simple. What we saw from Joe Torre was a mistake, plain and simple. But... what we saw from our hitters tonight was heart, determination, and a look that says "I want to win!"

The bullpen will NEVER implode like that the rest of the year. The Starting Pitching mostly held up. Let's just enjoy every last out of baseball left in Dodgertown, however many outs that may be.

2008-10-13 22:28:05
50.   Ufer
In 8th inning Sunday, I said: I pray Joe doesn't use Broxton in the 9th. My friend asks why? Because why use your 2 best relievers in a blowout when you might really need them the next day -- especially if you're starting your old pitcher on 3-days rest and will need your 'pen.

I'm not trying to brag -- you don't know who I am and I wish I was wrong. It's just if so many fans can see these things......why oh why is major league managing so bad and slow to develop? coaching in other sports, while somtimes bad, is so much more advanced.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-10-13 22:28:12
51.   thelarmis
44 sorry about the loss, bro. just getting in from work and saw the score. i haven't checked out what happened at the game yet, but will do so soon. i was pullin' for ya tongiht, man. thought you'd get a W, for certain... : (

23 yes, please don't get me started about torre and his bullpen 'managing'. i come from bronx banter and my stomach has suffered waaaay too many calls to the 'pen by that man! i love him dearly, but good god, he can't manage a bullpen. i'm sorry you've had to deal with Sturtze and (every day) Scott Proctor...

2008-10-13 22:29:17
52.   LeeLacy
I'm sitting here trying to maintain some sort of perspective as I ponder what just happened in Game 4. Tonight's meltdown doesn't crack my top 3 of personally devastating Dodger losses. That unholy trinity of defeats continues to include (1) the '82 season-ender in San Francisco, (2) Game 6 of the '85 NLCS, and (3) Game 4 of the '78 World Series. But while tonight's setback doesn't quite equal those infamous losses, I think it could crack my personal top 5. It's been a very long time since I felt so demoralized following a Dodger loss (primarily because it's been two decades since the Dodgers played in a game with so much at stake). Tonight's game reminded me once again that the line between unbounded joy and bottomless despair can be an awfully thin one. This is especially true with respect to October baseball.
2008-10-13 22:32:23
53.   nofatmike
I just realized something. The next game will be 20 years to the day that Kirk Gibson hit his HR. It would be a shame if that was the day we got eliminated.
2008-10-13 22:35:37
54.   bhsportsguy
I don't think it was an issue with Broxton pitching yesterday, he came in, got behind and Stairs hit a fastball.

If he doesn't pitch yesterday, Broxton would have gone 9 days between pitching Game 3 of the NLDS and Game 4 of the NLCS.

If Broxton can't pitch back to back after more than a week off, then the Dodgers can't win a playoff series.

2008-10-13 22:35:44
55.   Jacob L
The consolation I take away from this game is that every baseball fan knows this feeling. Its what makes every game, even the easy ones, excruciating. I never watch a game without thinking "What if our guys give up a pair of two run homers here? What then?" I certainly thought that at some point last night.

Anyhow, we've still got a game on Wednesday, so lets try to win it.

2008-10-13 22:36:36
56.   bhsportsguy
Torre did fine, the bullpen blew-up, it happens.
2008-10-13 22:42:08
57.   MC Safety
dkminnick, Jacob Burch, and Eric Stephen=good people.

This song sums up my feelings quite nice:

2008-10-13 22:42:23
58.   jasonungar07
the bullpen blew up cause Torre happened.
2008-10-13 22:43:37
59.   ryu
Broxton can throw 100mph, but it seems his pitches don't have enough movement. I think if there was a breaking ball he had in his arsenal to throw for a strike, the Stairs at-bat would've had a different outcome.

It behooves him to develop a breaking pitch to throw for a strike, if he is to take the next step as a reliever.

2008-10-13 22:44:48
60.   DBrim
59 - He has that pitch. It's his slider.
2008-10-13 22:46:33
61.   bhsportsguy
58 We'll just have to disagree on this one.
2008-10-13 22:47:10
62.   The Mootz
53 Maybe we should have Nancy Reagan throw out the first pitch. Seemed to work when she did it 20 years ago.
2008-10-13 22:48:33
63.   ryu
60 Yeah, but does he throw it for strikes? I've seen him throw it mostly to get hitters out after getting ahead in the count (with two strikes).
2008-10-13 22:51:20
64.   MC Safety
48 Quality post. Thanks for the nice words, Doug. This one is going to sting for a while.
2008-10-13 22:53:22
65.   jasonungar07
Totally BH. My take is simple; let Lowe go and let Kuo go. One guy was lifted for a 20 year old and the other for a guy who threw 33 pitches the night before and both guys were looking fine..But yeah (being serious) what do I know?
2008-10-13 22:56:25
66.   JRSarno
Something just felt out of sync with the lineup tonight. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but personally, I hated DeWitt in that 6 spot. Coupled with Martin in the 4 spot. Just wanky and strange. And what have you, both of them had hideous evenings at the plate.
2008-10-13 23:02:45
67.   Jacob Burch
Criticisms after this game are fair play, but I am overly pleased to see the majority of comments thus far being of the coping variety than the Pierre/Kuo/Headache. That's why I love this site the most, it can really calm the nerves.

My heart is shot, but like Doug said, I have an odd feeling of the game. I told Eric that it felt like a war story game. Listening to Jon, BH, Bob and the rest of you talk of Jack Clark and all the great moments--up and down--in Dodger history, all I ever had to cling to was 4+1--a game I didn't attend and was only half watching live. In baseball, my beloved sport, I have no memory of true success or true heartbreak--just long years of mediocrity. I can say in ten years that with eye-witness precision that Shane Victorino was the most hated man in LA, and Matt Stairs right after him.

My heart is sunk, but I can't regret going--especially in impeccable company. Outside of one guy trying to start a wave and an extremely rude off-putting comment from a fellow Dodger fan, the night was unaltered from anything outside the game--I didn't eat anything, traffic was fine, I had nothing on my mind but baseball, and nothing touched my heart but the swing of a bat and a throw of a ball. This only broke on moments where the three excellent gentlemen I was with said or did something, anything, to cheer us up.

With all of that said (I feel like I may write more on the history of heartbreak later), this is all on Eric.

ES: "Man, they're burning through their bench. Who do they have left?"

JB: "Coste and Matt Stairs."

ES: "Matt Stairs! I'm surprised they haven't used him yet, he's pretty good."

2008-10-13 23:05:46
68.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
My view on Torre's cascade of mistakes:

#1 Sending Matt Kemp up to bunt as a PH with JP on second. If Torre wanted a bunt, he could have put in someone else and not created the lure of the double-switch to put Kemp in defensively and bring up the pitcher one place earlier.

That cascaded into Torre having to have Kuo bunt with two on and one out, rather than allowing Kemp to swing away in JP's place with one out that could have caused a Sac-Fly or a two run hit.

#2 Using a short hook on Kuo after he just wasted an out with Kuo bunting, which cascades into bringing in Wade who pitched too much the day before. That, in turn, cascades into bringing in Broxton with a man on and two out.

Sure, the bullpen blew up all over, but I don't see Torre as blameless here. He mismanaged the offense in favor of questionable moves for pitching...

2008-10-13 23:21:07
69.   PDH5204
54 The problem with Broxton was, well, look at the video replay. Pitch was just where Martin wanted it. Matt Stairs has made a living on crushing just that pitch. Old school taught new school that 100 mph isn't all that it's cracked up to be, well, that and to mind their manners.
2008-10-13 23:22:09
70.   LOB
I just pored over all 1200 or so comments, after returning from the game, reliving every roller coaster moment.

I feel a little better. Thanks, everyone.

I got to spend this weekend with my twin baby granddaughters, 4 1/2 months old, and I have to say, baby love has greatly alleviated my normally unbearable Dodger post-season angst.

And reading Jon's Takeaway post was just right. Someday soon I hope to have two little girls at the game for Vinnie to ooh and ahh over.

Meanwhile, I'll be back out there on Wednesday, hooting and hollering.

What a great season.

2008-10-13 23:25:15
71.   underdog
I'd put this video on my blog which I think might cheer y'all up. Enjoy (on several levels)!

2008-10-13 23:26:09
72.   underdog
Sorry, this is the direct link, use this:

Who put the goat in there?

2008-10-13 23:31:26
73.   JRSarno
Two hours back from the game and a few purging comments later, I'm sick of feeling depair. Let's do what we need to do on Wednesday, then tackle the behemoth that is "beating Philly in Philly." If we can just get on that flight to the East Coast, I am happy with the remaining pitching matchups that loom on the horizon. Who cares what happens? Seriously. We've defied our expectations, and we've certainly eviscerated that horrendous feeling we digested when we endured that 8 game losing streak in late August. We thought we were DONE, then we fought our way to the Division Title and through the NLDS unscathed. Tell me THAT at the beginning of the season, and I would have laughed myself to the brink of veritable insanity. Now, we're deep into the NLCS, and we're in a hole. Fine, whatever! Destroy the critics and dig deep! I'll be screaming on Wednesday come hell or high water. Now, I'm going to get in bed with my wife and smother her with optimism!
2008-10-13 23:31:42
74.   Linkmeister
Victorino is rapidly becoming the Brian Doyle of this series.

Who he?

2008-10-13 23:35:47
75.   BlueCrew Bruin
Not sure what I can add to the fantastic posts here. Great game, sucky ending. It was my first time attending a playoff game and it was awesome even though the wrong team won.

I blame this loss on the drunken fool in my section of the Top Deck. Between the 7th and 8th innings, the guy comes around telling everyone about the hot girl he brought to the game and how he's gonna impress her by starting the Wave. When he finally gets around to starting it, he brings the girl out with him and tries to put her up on his shoulders...right in front of the railing at the bottom of the steps. Practically the entire section starts shouting "NO, NO!" and people start jumping up to make sure he doesn't actually lift the girl onto his shoulders and accidentally drop her over the railing.

As all this is going on: BAM! Home run Victorino. Then: BAM! Home run Stairs. Yep, that's what did it all right. Just thought you'd like to know. :)

2008-10-13 23:37:03
76.   thelarmis
72 your pundit got armor! that was awesome, underdog. i couldn't stomach the whole song though - Indian pop & film music is some of the worst garbage i've ever heard.

on the flip side, Indian Classical music - both Hindustani & Carnatic - is some of the absolute greatest music ever ever ever ever and i've studied it over the years, thoroughly enjoying it!

2008-10-13 23:40:15
77.   thelarmis
74 a brian doyle reference, i love it! i remember seeing him at Yankee Stadium when i was a little boy, around the same year as that article. in fact, i still have a picture of him in the batting circle at my parents house. i think victorino is a much better player than brian doyle (or bucky 'bleeping' dent of fred "chicken" stanley), but i see your point...
2008-10-13 23:43:04
78.   Jacob Burch
75 Hey, us four were near you! We also blamed the wave-starter as the jinx. But it was really Eric. Trust me!
2008-10-13 23:43:19
79.   underdog
Hah hah. 75 meet 67
"Outside of one guy trying to start a wave..."
"Between the 7th and 8th innings, the guy comes around telling everyone about the hot girl he brought to the game and how he's gonna impress her by starting the Wave..."


76 Thanks for all your support.
(Btw, the Darjeeling Limited soundtrack is awesome if you haven't heard it yet.)
I appreciate all the comments here tonight.
I'm just gonna enjoy the game on Wednesday, hope it's a good one, appreciate every moment of it knowing it could be it for our Dodgers but knowing they have some fight left in them.

Night all.

2008-10-13 23:44:28
80.   underdog
What's all this talk about Brian Doyle Murray? He hasn't been any good since Caddyshack and Groundhog Day.

Oh, wait, never mind.

2008-10-13 23:49:10
81.   FirstMohican
Torre honeymoon over.
2008-10-14 00:34:02
82.   trainwreck
Youtube knows I am part Indian, because every time I go there they recommend me to watch this video.

I blame my friend Rohit, who keeps making me watch Blllywood videos. That and I love to watch some Daler Mendhi videos.

2008-10-14 00:37:05
83.   trainwreck
This video is just standard Bollywood garbage, yaar.
2008-10-14 00:37:19
84.   Eric Stephen
Don't forget Xmas Vacation!

Despite what I'm sure is the worst sports loss I've ever endured in person, the game was fun and I'm glad I was there. Jacob, MC Safety, and dkminnick were a blast to hang out with.

I will take full blame for the Stairs HR, for two reasons:

1) when he was announced as a PH, I had a sick feeling in my stomach and didn't want to watch, even though I chalked it up to nervousness
2) all I could think of was a friend of mine who, every possible time for the last 10 years, has always said Matt "Up" Stairs like he's Chris Berman or something. I simply can't shake that moniker out of my head

The Stairs HR was an absolute gut punch, and Dodger Stadium was as quiet as a mouse for the next 10-15 minutes or so as we all sat shell-shocked.

For all the sadness we feel now, and the angst we will feel for the next 41 hours or so, there's still a chance much better than the one Lloyd Christmas had.

All I know is I didn't grow a 7-week playoff beard for nothing! As I told Jacob and MC Safety as we were walking out (in what felt like a perp walk or dead men walking), the most famous thing we can say about tonight's game is that we attended the final Dodger loss of the 2008 postseason.

2008-10-14 00:46:02
85.   trainwreck
My hair shall be growing through October.
2008-10-14 00:58:26
86.   still bevens
It goes without saying but the new Plaschke article is garbage. Our bullpen has been the tops of the majors all year but the collapse of tonights game was 'predictable'. Its like the dude doesn't watch games. Another gem here is "I don't blame Torre."
2008-10-14 01:25:42
87.   trainwreck
Said it before and I will say it again.

Just ignore Plaschke exists.

2008-10-14 01:29:27
88.   milkshakeballa
Wow....let me say this was personally the most painful Dodger loss I have ever been a part of, and it really isn't even close. With that better believe we can come back. We just have to win game 5. We need Bills to come up big. Kuroda really does own those guys and I really feel like we will smack Myers around game 6. If it gets to a game 7...Moyer or Blanton vs. a well-rested Lowe???? Please.....

This serious is just STARTING to get interesting...

Now with that said I have 2 extra tickets to Wednesday's game....just looking for face value for me at

2008-10-14 01:30:20
89.   milkshakeballa
Also, I don't know if Broxton has tried, but that dude has GOT to learn how to throw a changeup. It would just be devastating.
2008-10-14 06:33:17
90.   Bob Hendley
Woke up this morning in a cold sweat. Don't think that I could take another game today. Need time to lick my wounds.

I try not to blame Torre for this, after all its the players that didn't quite do the job and that happens. I would have done things differently, but that's surely no guarantee of nuthin. Fillies came up big when they needed to. The Fly'in Hawai'an went down and got that ball and Stairs is a professional.

2008-10-14 06:35:31
91.   Sam DC
Wow, that Stairs shot was a deep bummer. I was with a couple ex-pat strangers I met while watching and it was a very collective moment of misery.

I see lots of grousing here re pulling Kuo. I haven't read the game thread yet but I was quite up in arms in re leaving him in to bunt the inning before instead of bringing up a real hitter and taking a better shot at getting that runner from second home.

Lovely image of you and the little'un, Jon. I picked up my 7 yr old this morning to take to school and he asked who won the game. I told him it had been a real heatbreaking loss for the Dodgers and got some solace myself in his very concerned, "Gee Dad, that's too bad."

2008-10-14 06:50:57
92.   Dodger Dawg
This game was on Torre and his micro managing. Also it would be nice if someone other than Manny would drive in runners. Martin is no cleanup hitter, Loney would have been a better choice. Whenever there are men on base Russ always swings for the fences when a fly ball or single would do the job.
2008-10-14 06:54:11
93.   Sushirabbit
My loony bun is fine Benny Lava!

Ethier made some great plays tonight that help dull the pain.

I always enjoy hearing about everyone's kids, tonight I'm hoping to see my son get good aluminum on one.

2008-10-14 07:00:53
94.   OhioBlues12
I blame DePo for dooming us to this fate several years ago. He set the wheels in motion by slighting Victorino and invariably he has come back to seek his revenge. I am only half joking.
2008-10-14 07:11:56
95.   Jon Weisman
I haven't seen any comment in this thread that in consecutive innings with runners on second and third, Martin and Kemp ripped the ball, only to get inning-ending outs. It's just part of a theme of this series.

I didn't see the first inning, but it sounded like DeWitt did something similar with a man on third.

2008-10-14 07:17:29
96.   OhioBlues12
I don't think Martin's ball was really ripped. It was more of a soft liner that Utley caught and doubled us up. That was really a crushing blow right there. We had the Phillies on the ropes and couldn't put them away by bringing a couple more in. The majority of breaks just haven't gone our way this series.
2008-10-14 07:22:17
97.   Daniel Zappala
For me, this game only hurts if this is the last time I see the Dodgers in the playoffs for a long time. If the Dodgers get back into the playoffs regularly over the next several years, and the kids continue to play a starring role, then this series will be just another in a long line of exciting moments in the post season.
2008-10-14 07:32:25
98.   Harold M Johnson
I thought Martin's ball was ripped.

Bottom line though, the theme of this series (so far) is their guys, the non-stars, coming up big, and our guys not so much.

That's all going to change starting Wednesday. The Dodgers don't just need a win, they need to send the series back to Philly with both teams knowing the Dodgers can take this thing.

2008-10-14 07:43:35
99.   Bob Hendley
95 - I just chalked Martin's ball up to the baseball gods taking away after not letting Torre give away outs with Kemp and Rafi. Oh, and of course Chase had something to do with it. We keep ripping and they should fall, though not much time left for things to swing our way. Here's to beating Hamels and sending this back to Philly.
2008-10-14 07:50:49
100.   D4P
Martin and Kemp ripped the ball, only to get inning-ending outs

I guess the Phillies's "Keep 9 defenders on the field* at all times" strategy has paid off.

*Technically, the catcher spends most of his time in foul territory, but still.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-10-14 07:53:43
101.   Bluebleeder87
emotional hangover can best descrive how I feel right now... we still have a chance but I'm gonna be realistic at this point. If anything it will make it that much more exciting if we pull this off.
2008-10-14 08:07:26
102.   cargill06
When will this punch in the gut feeling go away?
2008-10-14 08:12:06
103.   Disabled List
LA's 2008 Game 4 curse continues. First the Lakers melt down against the Celtics in June, and now this. I feel like those Cubs fans felt after Loney's grand slam. Totally deflated. That was a must-win for us last night, and we didn't win it. All through the game I was moaning about the scoring opportunities we were missing out on, and sure enough, it came back to bite us. You can't leave all those unscored runs on base against an explosive team like the Phillies. And yeah, Torre should not have pulled Kuo for Wade.

I wonder if Matt Stairs now gets to be as infamous as Jack Clark in Dodger history. He's got to be at least as infamous as Brian Johnson.

2008-10-14 08:15:36
104.   Marty
There's still baseball to be played. Last night was nowhere near the top 5 Dodger disappointments. I still remember the anguish of watching The Best Team In The History Of The World (in my 10-year-old mind) get swept by the Orioles. Last night was just a tough loss.
2008-10-14 08:17:17
105.   JoeyP
Martin and Kemp ripped the ball, only to get inning-ending outs. It's just part of a theme of this series.

Certainly the advantage does go to the team that hits the ball over the fence rather than the team which relies on luck (or bad-luck)

2008-10-14 08:18:40
106.   LogikReader
About half an hour after the game, I received a phone call from my friend up north in SF. Here he was, a hardcore Giants fan, telling me "I feel bad for you, buddy, you deserved to win this game!" [he still admits that he enjoyed it, but was sorry for me]

Then he said a whole lot of other things to cheer me up. That was a true class act. I'll never forget those 20 minutes.


I couldn't sleep last night. I was literally in and out of sleep from about 11pm-4am. This is probably the most painful loss of my young life (I was only 3 in '85).

I just hope the Dodgers don't feel the same way. To forgive is to forget.

2008-10-14 08:22:02
107.   JoeyP
I dont think last night's game was as tough a loss either.

To me, a tough loss is one that you dont deserve to lose---> like getting beat on a bloop single, or walking in the winning run. Or making an error. Or losing with one of your worst pitchers on the mound.

Last night, the Phillies just beat the Dodgers. The Dodgers threw their best relievers at them, & got just got beat. That you can live with.

2008-10-14 08:22:13
108.   cargill06
105 To be fair, we've had two balls hit the top 2 feet of the wall in this series, and it looked like Victorino's barley skimmed over the wall. We've been unlucky with the near misses we've hit and the one HR they barely hit.
2008-10-14 08:28:48
109.   Eric Stephen
It's been 11 hours and 50 minutes
Since you gave that win away
I couldn't sleep last night and am tired today
Since you gave that win away
If you lose, I can do whatever I want
I can watch whatever I choose
I can eat something fancier than a Dodger dog
But nothing
I said nothing makes me want to click on Dodger Blues
Because nothing compares
Nothing compares to blue
2008-10-14 08:30:46
110.   JoeyP
Victorino is probably the best player drafted in the Kevin Malone era (99-01).

Victorino- 99' 6th round
Repko - 99' 1st round
Edwin Jackson - 01' 6th round
Joel Hanrahan - 00' 2nd round

Other non-notables- Victor Diaz, Abercrombie, Koyie Hill.

2008-10-14 08:30:50
111.   Bob Hendley
103 - The great thing is that there is still more baseball to be played and we could forget Stairs in a couple of days. As for the Fly'in Hawai'an? He is a marked man.
2008-10-14 08:31:58
112.   JoeyP
108- I didnt think Victorino's would get out. And Casey Blake hit his homer with 1 arm. The ball must have been jumping last night bc both didnt look like they had any chance to get out.
2008-10-14 08:33:25
113.   Branch Rickey
95 Walking out of the game and trying to play through all of the things that went wrong, those were certainly the first. Four men in scoring position; two line shots; zero runs; three outs. And that over two innings. I know we gave up 7 runs but it felt like we should have scored 10-12. I disagree completely with 107 . I don't feel at all like the Phillies flatout outplayed us in any game this series. They played tough and the ball DID bounce in their direction. That happens. That did happen. Jack Clark happens. Matt Stairs happens. Line drives right at them happen too. It all figures in.
2008-10-14 08:34:30
114.   Bob Hendley
It is tempting to go over to Dodger Blues. Only did it once this season. What the heck, maybe it will get me to laugh.
2008-10-14 08:36:28
115.   D4P
From reading the game comments, I gathered that Ethier made 1-2 "great" catches that saved a bunch of runs.

But I guess we only count the unlikely events that go against us.

2008-10-14 08:37:39
116.   scareduck
109 - LOL!
2008-10-14 08:38:43
117.   regfairfield
105 The Dodgers have several guys that can hit the ball over the fence just as well as Victorino or Stairs.
2008-10-14 08:40:17
118.   Eric Stephen
Dodger Playoff Teams Down 3-1

Won Game 5 at home, 10-4 over the Yankees.
Lose Game 6 in NY, but would have won 4-3 without Reggie's 3 HR. :)

Lost Game 5 in Oakland. Every game in the series had a 3-2 score except Game 4 (5-2 A's)

Fell behind 10-1 at home to the Yankees. Cut the lead to 10-6 but ultimately lost.

At Ebbets Field, the Yankees' Tiny Bonham outdueled Whit Wyatt in a battle of CGs, 3-1

Ernie Shore shut down the Dodgers 4-1 at Braves Field, giving the Red Sox the title.

2008-10-14 08:43:10
119.   Eric Stephen is trying to pour salt into my wounds. From an email just received this morning:


Dear Customer,

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2008-10-14 08:43:49
120.   cargill06
118 Hey, alright! Odds are coming back from 3-1 happens about 1 of 10 tries, so maybe this is the time!!!!!!

115 Only 1 was a great catch on a blooper. The 2nd was a lazy fly ball with communication problems that he caught and kind of fell forward.

2008-10-14 08:49:54
121.   D4P
If I'm reading that "Who Wins" website correctly, here are the respective probabilities of winning each game for a team in the Dodgers's position:

G5: 0.531
G6: 0.526 (surprise)
G7: Um, I can't find the stats for this...

2008-10-14 08:54:03
122.   Sac Town Dodger Fan
109 - That was fantastic. I thought I would add to it....

Oh the agony of defeat, makes
The beauty of the game look ugly today
Looming in the shadows lies another game
Someone's chance to achieve Dodger fame

One more loss, there will be no joy this fall
No time to sulk, our backs are against the wall,
In a season that has been so improbable
The impossible can happen!

2008-10-14 08:55:41
123.   Crimson Bear
115: I'd be happy to trade Ethier's diving catch for the three times the Dodgers hit line drives right at the Phillies to end innings with multiple men in scoring position (not to mention Loney's first inning drive that hit two-thirds up the wall and cost us two runs). The Dodgers as a team went 11-34 with 8 walks, including 3 doubles and a HR and only scored 5 runs. They also had 5 line drive outs. If you did a graph of expected runs based on the way the Dodgers played on offense yesteday I would guess we ended up in the lowest 5 percent. It's baseball, in any one game bad luck happens. But to pretend that last night's variance did not go badly against the Dodgers in just not accurate in my view.
2008-10-14 08:56:44
124.   underdog
115 He made one superb sliding catch to end the inning after Beimel came in on a little blooper, to temporarily save their butts. It could've been one of the plays of the game if they'd held on.

Oh and 109 , nicely done, Eric! Sinead or Prince would be proud.

2008-10-14 08:57:10
125.   Branch Rickey
115 Ethier made one great catch and of course many great things were accomplished last night (including Manny getting on all 5 PAs). That's almost always true and it doesn't take anything away from the fact that things can still overall not go your way. Baseball outcomes are due part to skill and part to random variation of luck. On a skill level, I felt like we could have won any or all of those four games. That's not say the Phils simply "got lucky". They put themselves in a position to win and the fates did the rest.
2008-10-14 08:57:55
126.   Frip
48 Being with people makes things not seem so bad. I suggest you stay away from people.
2008-10-14 09:06:52
127.   underdog
123 Seriously. I started to wonder if someone else related to someone on the Phillies had passed away yesterday. The Dodgers' need their own death in the family! Okay, sorry, sick joke... Kind of have to wonder, though.

Speaking of, someone needs to do a suicide watch over at Nate P's house.

2008-10-14 09:08:02
128.   Jim Hitchcock
0 Thank you, Jon, for lifting the gloom quite a bit with that post.
2008-10-14 09:08:42
129.   underdog
127 (Though your Facebook statuses are kind of cracking me up, Nate.)
2008-10-14 09:09:36
130.   kinbote
The turning point in the game might have happened in the first inning, when Loney missed a homer by mere feet and we ended up with 1 rather than 3.

As for the rest of this series, I'm on board with the goal of taking this thing back to Philly. Make 'em clinch on their home turf. And I recommend they do it in Game 6, because anything can happen in a Game 7.

2008-10-14 09:19:08
131.   LogikReader

Yep. As bad as Game 6 in Boston was last summer, I was still glad it took place there and not in L.A. for game 5. One game at a time, Blue Crew...

2008-10-14 09:21:15
132.   Eric Stephen
Postseason History Down 3-1

World Series
Force a Game 6: 17 of 39 (43.6%)
Force a Game 7: 7 of 39 (17.9%)
Win Series: 4 of 39 (10.3%)
3 of the 6 to force a Game 7 were home in Game 5 and on the road in Games 6-7 (1912 alternated home field each game)

Force a Game 6: 7 of 11 (63.6%)
Force a Game 7: 3 of 11 (27.3%)
Win Series: 2 of 11 (18.2%)
2 of the 3 to force a Game 7 were home in Game 5 and on the road in Games 6-7

Force a Game 6: 7 of 15 (46.7%)
Force a Game 7: 4 of 15 (26.7%)
Win Series: 4 of 15 (26.7%)
2 of the 4 to force a Game 7 were home in Game 5 and on the road in Games 6-7

Postseason Total
Force a Game 6: 31 of 65 (47.7%)
Force a Game 7: 14 of 65 (21.5%)
Win Series: 10 of 65 (15.4%)

2008-10-14 09:31:50
133.   gibsonhobbs88
How many "Atem" balls can we hit with
men in scoring position. We were very unlucky in that respect. Torre did
overmanage big time. I love the
Minotaur but last night was not the
time or place in a one run game to
place him in the game in the 6th inning
after we had just taken a 3-2 lead.
Lowe had just pitched his best inning in the 5th and had at least the 6th inning
to pitch before he was due to bat 3rd
in the bottom of the inning. Then you
could have had 5-6 pitchers to get you
through the last 3 innings if necessary
where you could have mixed and matched
depending on who the Phillies brought
up to hit.
The fates seem to be with the Phillies
though, Victorino's ball barely skims
the bullpen gate, Loney's misses by a
couple feet, we miss 4-5 extra runs
with line drives at people instead of
in the holes. I too felt like I was
sucker punched in the 8th inning last
night. I still have an emotional hang-
over and it was an effort to drag myself
to work today. All the bad memories
of my my Dodgers lifetime came flooding back to me, the losses in the 74,77 and
78 World Series, especially 78 when I
thought we were the better team but a
terrible call changed the momentum of
the series in you guessed it -Game 4!
Then Joe Morgan in 1982, Jack Clark in
1985, Will Clark and the Giants taunting
and enjoying knocking us out in 1991!
The 74 and 77 WS aren't as haunting
because the Dodgers were beat fair and square by the better team in those two
series. There wasn't one signature
play that stood out that turned the
series momentum around. In this decade,
the 2004 series, the Cards were
definitely the better team but the Mets
got the benefit of our Game 1 base-
running gaffe that set the tone of that series sweep.
2008-10-14 09:37:28
134.   JRSarno
Manny's double in the 8th: an unbelievably clutch hit on a 3-2 count. I mean, let's face it: the guy is ridiculous. The question, as far as I'm concerned, is: when is someone else gonna step up in this NLCS, WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS, and deliver?
2008-10-14 09:39:38
135.   Jon Weisman
134 - Casey Blake's tiebreaking home run, Blake DeWitt's bases-loaded triple ... already forgotten.
2008-10-14 09:43:45
136.   cargill06
[134} Loney did last night, and even though Martin and DeWitt had nothing to show for it, they came through in my mind.
2008-10-14 09:43:58
137.   Eric Stephen
when is someone else gonna step up in this NLCS, WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS, and deliver?

Like Blake DeWitt's 3-run triple, or Casey Blake's go-ahead HR, or James Loney's 2-out RBIs?

The club has 19 runs in 4 games, which is right around their average outside of the dead zone (4.91 runs/gm in all games outside the Furcal out to Manny arriving time).

2008-10-14 09:46:40
138.   MC Safety
134 Lol. That reminds me of this guy Eric and I walked by in the parking lot, who yelled to his buddy "CLAYTON KERSHAW SUCKS MAN"
2008-10-14 09:47:06
139.   Eric Stephen
Dodgers record prior to NLCS when scoring 5+ runs: 63-9 (87.5%)

During NLCS: 1-2 (33.3%)

2008-10-14 09:49:00
140.   Lexinthedena
Last night was a very tough loss, but I feel that even with a loss tomorrow that this season has been a success. The Dodgers haven't been relevant for so long and now they are. For all of Torre's bad decisions, he also seems to have intstilled a culture of winning in these young players. There is now an expectation rather than a punchline. I have no idea what the offseason will bring, but I am optimistic that we once again have a winning franchise.

Let's get 'em tomorrow and go sweep in Philly!

2008-10-14 09:49:17
141.   Eric Stephen
That was a great bit of comic relief. Of all the things to be mad about last night, this one guy, all by himself and three sheets to the wind, was muttering to himself, "Damn it Kershaw, why did you give up those baserunners" or something like that.
2008-10-14 09:49:49
142.   cargill06
138 Reminds me of my buddy, "Kershaw is garbage, he'll never be Jon Lester, doesn't throw enough strikes."

Ummm, want to look at what Lesters command when he was 20, in A ball? Hell, want to look at Lesters command last year?

I can't stand ignorance.

2008-10-14 09:51:05
143.   JRSarno
135 - Blake's home run was clutch, no question. Broke the tie. But let's now FORWARD our progress here, in a moment where a run was needed down two runs (not in a BREAK THE TIE SITUATION), and where were we...? (crickets).
2008-10-14 09:52:20
144.   cargill06
141 Yet, if Pat Burrell hits that ball 7 feet further towards the 2nd base bag that same guy is saying, "I love this kid, I've always had faith in him."
2008-10-14 09:52:34
145.   BlueCrew Bruin
The "Phillies suck!" chants on the way out of the game last night cracked me up. I'll never understand the "[Insert team] sucks!" chants after your team has just gotten it's backside handed to it by the other team.
2008-10-14 09:54:17
146.   JRSarno
Mashing runs in the 1st inning is amazing (i.e., DeWitt's three run triple in Game 3). I love it. But when we're DOWN 3-2 in Game 1 for 5 innings of sustained non-production, or when we're DOWN 2 runs with two frames left and all of our "big bats" are in-line, I'm wondering where the resolve is going to come from. Those are moments where we need to come through, independent of the ManRam factor.
2008-10-14 09:54:47
147.   cargill06
-1st and 2nd 2 outs, Loney hits a rocket off the CF wall just missing a HR.
-2nd and 3rd 2 outs, DeWitt hits a rocket right and Howard
-2nd and 3rd 0 outs, Ethier lines out to Howard
-Bases Loaded 1 outs, Martin hits a rocket up the middle, diving catch DP.

Even though you didn't get the results you wanted on these plays, all you can ask is guys to put good swings on the ball and they all did.

2008-10-14 09:55:20
148.   jasonungar07
We can gripe about the other stuff. But taking out your starter after 74 pitches, after he retired 8 of the last 9 while only giving up 2 runs in the 5th inning is ridicoulous.
2008-10-14 09:55:35
149.   Disabled List
143 Dude, that is seriously whiny. If you're demanding a clutch hit in every single possible clutch situation, then you're going to be very disappointed next year when the Dodgers fail to go 162-0.
2008-10-14 09:55:38
150.   Jon Weisman
143 - You win. In every game we've lost, we've failed to get a game-winning hit.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-10-14 09:56:04
151.   Tangled Up in Blue
When Torre decided to go with Kershaw in the 6th I felt it was a mistake. I immediately called my brother and questioned the move. Lowe was cruising at that point and I think by lifting him it gave the Phillies a lift psychologically. I just felt the complexity of the game changed at that point. It was like when you are playing poker and you see someone make a mistake and you gain confidence and realize you still can take the pot. The Dodgers flinched and it cost them.

The Phillies were into the Dodger bullpen in the 6th and trailing by 1 run with 4 innings to play.

Has there been any reason given as to why Torre took Lowe out of the game? Did Lowe tell him he was done? Injury?

2008-10-14 09:56:47
152.   Branch Rickey
143 You mean where Raffy worked that walk to get on as the leadoff man?
2008-10-14 09:56:52
153.   MC Safety
141 That guy saved my life. Honestly.
2008-10-14 09:57:15
154.   cargill06
then you're going to be very disappointed next year when the Dodgers fail to go 162-0.


2008-10-14 09:57:31
155.   kinbote
133 Your post looks like a W.S. Merwin poem. :)
2008-10-14 10:00:51
156.   underdog
133 More iambic pentameter next time!
2008-10-14 10:00:53
157.   SG6
151 - Meanwhile, standing in front of his locker, Lowe remains befuddled. He says he's still in the game, he goes to the clubhouse to use the men's room, comes out and is told, "that's it."

He still doesn't understand why. "That's the manager's decision, and they make decisions in the best interests of the team," he says. "It wasn't like I was going to throw a hissy-fit; I had already thrown stuff around in the first inning" after giving up two runs.

Lowe went through the next four innings, though, without giving up a run. In his previous 11 starts, he had yet to give up more than two earned runs, and here he was again.

"And I just had my easiest inning yet, which is what I needed," he says. "I felt fine."

2008-10-14 10:01:18
158.   SG6
157 - Per Simers article...
2008-10-14 10:02:19
159.   JRSarno
Untimely hitting, that's all I'm saying. Who's calling for 162-0, or asking for unreasonable results? If we can't grit out a game under adverse circumstances, then we deserve to lose the series. Nor do I feel that's some unreasonable expectation. Interesting wolfpack factor in here.
2008-10-14 10:05:53
160.   Daniel Zappala
151 I'll be the one to admit that when Torre brought in Kershaw I thought -- wow, maybe he can shutout the Phillies for the rest of the game and he'll be the hero of a 3-2 win. The ump had a wide strike zone last night, but didn't give Kershaw anything.
2008-10-14 10:07:27
161.   BlueCrew Bruin
160 I was wondering about the strike zone myself when Kershaw was pitching. It was hard to tell from where I was but it sure looked like he was getting squeezed.
2008-10-14 10:07:28
162.   cargill06
147 I forgot...

-Bottom 7th, 2nd and 3rd 2 outs Kemp hits a line shot right at Victorino.

2008-10-14 10:08:39
163.   MC Safety
159 Did you watch the game? We were unlucky. Period. We were getting guys on base all night. Our bullpen didn't come through. I can see one complaining about Chan Ho Park's wild pitch, or Torre's bullpen management. But imo, you're barking up the wrong tree.
2008-10-14 10:11:17
164.   Tangled Up in Blue
157 Thank you. Boy, reading that makes it even worse.
2008-10-14 10:11:38
165.   Jon Weisman
159 - I think the wolfpack is simply asking what more can you ask than people put the bat on the ball and hit it hard. "Grit out" is a convenient euphemism, but it belies the fact that the Dodgers threatened in almost every inning yesterday.

This isn't golf or billiards - you don't get to choose the exact spot to hit it.

2008-10-14 10:13:01
166.   Jon Weisman
160 - I agree with both of you. I had high hopes for Kershaw.
2008-10-14 10:13:16
167.   Jon Weisman
166 - was directed at 160 and 161
2008-10-14 10:13:56
168.   Frip
159 I never really understood the reasoning behind Rule 4, but I'm beginning to see the light.
2008-10-14 10:18:03
169.   wronghanded
160 I thought the umpire had a strange zone last night. At certain times he was giving big corners and at others it looked like he had a button-sized zone. I can't say that the zone favored one team over the other but I didn't like the fact that Utley was able to question the zone and the umpire appeared to be affected by what Utley said.
2008-10-14 10:20:41
170.   Tangled Up in Blue
160 166 I had high hopes for Kershaw as well. In fact, I was fine with him starting the game. My problem is that it was a strange move at the time and, I believe, a momentum changer. If I were in the Philly dugout I would have been happy to see Lowe out of the game.
2008-10-14 10:21:00
171.   Neal Pollack
None of the good/bad luck line drive stuff would have mattered if Torre had managed the pitching staff properly. Taking out Lowe was a mistake, taking out Kuo was a mistake.
2008-10-14 10:26:10
172.   cargill06
171 Kuo's fastball dropped from 94-96 in the 7th to 90-91 in the 8th, unless he was throwing something other than a 4 seam fastball.
2008-10-14 10:26:27
173.   Lexinthedena
171 Kuo is coming off of an injury, it's unfair to expect more than an inning from him.

The bullpen has been a strength, and for once it failed, Torre wen't with his strength and it didn't work out. Thats baseball.
The Phillies had some good luck, but they WON. The Dodgers did not give this game away. It's not a loss that deserves Monday morning QB'ing.

2008-10-14 10:29:14
174.   Neal Pollack
173--I respectfully disagree. I'm no Torre detractor in general, but he overthought this game. He didn't give up the two-run homer to Matt Stairs, but he did help create the circumstances where that homer mattered.
2008-10-14 10:30:09
175.   MC Safety
This place needs some Love.

"Can't Explain" by Arthur Lee and Love:

2008-10-14 10:36:40
176.   Louis in SF

In a number of his post game remarks Torre said that Lowe was fighting himself, was only going to be good for one more inning at best, and said he felt comfortable with the move. Blue notes had the full quote.

Question I had, Torre said he pulled Kuo because he didn't like the way that Kuo was throwing in the warmups, in between the 7th and 8th inning. I always thought that warmups between innings didn't count for much. If anyone can shed any light on this-much appreciated this is my big question?

2008-10-14 10:39:42
177.   cargill06
Carlos freaking Ruiz before Stairs too. I need to stop thinking about last night it's bad for my health.
2008-10-14 10:41:29
178.   Jon Weisman
For what it's worth, Torre gets a writeoff from me for this game. I thought it was a very challenging game to manage - I can't emphasize that enough - and I can see a case for every move he made, with the possible but somewhat inconsequential exceptions of his faith in Park and his seeming desire to have Matt Kemp pinch-bunt.

I can understand why people will disagree with me, but I'm content with a manager who gets a two-run lead to Wade and Broxton with five outs to go.

2008-10-14 10:45:16
179.   RELX
Having had a night to think about the game, I am ok with the Kuo move, but still mystified about Lowe. Derek was cruising, and had only thrown 74 pitches. He easily had two innings left in him--then you go to Kuo in the 8th, Broxton in the 9th. However, lifting starting pitchers early is part of Torre's M.O.--he pulled Kuroda Sunday night even though he had only thrown 80-something pitches, and was still leading by five runs. While it worked, he probably burned Wade for this game. With the five-run lead last night, I would have put in Kershaw, Maddux or even McDonald. You can always bring in Wade if the Phillies get to within 2-3 runs. I would not bring in Kershaw at all in a close game. While I think he is going to be a good to great pitcher one day, he is still very inconsistent, and, as we saw last night, on occasion has problems throwing strikes.

As far as Kuo, I think that with his elbow, his status really can change from inning to inning. (Let's face it, he is basically pitching hurt all the time.) I think that Torre, as seen by Kuo batting in the 7th, had every intention of leaving him in for the 8th, but then quickly saw something he didn't like with his arm, and pulled him. It is not like Torre has had a quick hook with Kuo this season--he has developed into one of Joe's most trusted relievers.

2008-10-14 10:47:12
180.   Tangled Up in Blue
176 Thanks for the info. That doesnt make much sense to me considering how he threw the last couple of innings but Torre must have saw something.

The Kuo reasoning makes even less sense. Warm up pitches? I think the reality is that Torre only wanted him in to face the lefty Howard. When Howard singled he went with the righty/righty matchup. Torre is obsession with those matchups caused him to burn thru the bullpen quickly

2008-10-14 10:48:55
181.   adrian beltre
gee: Is Matt Kemp on the Milton Bradley / Tony Phillips train to wacko-ville or what? Why are so many professional athletes so petulant? I mean...just in terms of profession..are they not the luckiest humans on the planet?

Rob Neyer: (1:31 PM ET ) I won't address Kemp specifically because I don't know enough about him. But if you're a petulant jerk before you get rich you'll probably still be a petulant jerk after.

Did we see this already? If so, I'm sorry I'm late. Did something happen? Either way, it's the last thing I need right now.

2008-10-14 10:49:38
182.   Humma Kavula
171 I went to bed angry, and I agree with you up to a point. Torre doesn't get a pass from me, but I do think that reactions would be a little different if Loney's hit was three feet higher, or even if Ramirez's double in Game 1 was three feet higher...

Who said it above -- the Dodgers have gotten some breaks, but most of the breaks have gone to the Phillies. That is baseball. If the breaks aren't going your way, you can overcome it with perfect managing. I think Torre made some mistakes that were justifiable and some that weren't. He deserves the criticism he is receiving, but the Dodgers might've lost anyway.

Y'know, on September 19, 2006, I talked to my Padre-fan friend about the previous night's game. I called it the best game I'd ever seen. He called it poorly pitched and terrible.

So I'm trying to recognize that last night's game was, in fact, a good game with a terrible result... and I'm trying to let it go. It's just a game.

Here's hoping that we get good baseball in Game Five, and here's hoping we get a better result.

2008-10-14 10:54:33
183.   herchyzer
146 :
>>>>But when we're DOWN 3-2 in Game 1 for 5 innings of sustained non-production, or when we're DOWN 2 runs with two frames left and all of our "big bats" are in-line, I'm wondering where the resolve is going to come from. Those are moments where we need to come through, independent of the ManRam factor.<<<<

If I've learned anything from years of following different sports it's that that kind of resolve, cojones, or whatever, often develops in a squad over the course of a couple of years of playing together and playing well. The first time or so a young team such as the Dodgers are makes the playoffs they often won't play as clutchy as they will a couple of seasons later if they have been making the playoffs regularly during the in-between seasons.

I don't have any stats to back that up, just vague, fading memories.

2008-10-14 10:55:24
184.   Disabled List
If the breaks aren't going your way, you can overcome it with perfect managing.

I disagree on this small point. In fact, the reverse is more true: Even with perfect managing, if the breaks aren't going your way, you ain't gonna win.

2008-10-14 10:56:33
185.   KingKopitar
At this point I don't care if the Dodgers win the series. I just want Billingsley to outpitch Hamels. It doesn't bother me that people think that Hamels is better than Billingsley; it bothers me that they don't even think it's a debate. Chad needs respect!
2008-10-14 10:58:13
186.   Humma Kavula
184 Fair enough. Please insert the word "sometimes" -- "you can sometimes overcome it with perfect managing."

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't a choice between (a) we didn't get the breaks and that's baseball, versus (b) Torre make tactical errors that did not put the team in the best position to win. Both are true.

2008-10-14 10:58:53
187.   Tangled Up in Blue
The bright side:

1) Its not over.
2) If we beat Hamels I really like the Dodgers chances
3) We have seen Hamels already as well as their bullpen and we should be able to make adjustments and possibly do to them what they just did to us
4) Blake homered and Kemp hit the ball hard (with runners on base) which may mean they are turning it around.
5) Even if we are eliminated I am happy we made it this far. It has been a great summer/early fall

Go Dodgers!

2008-10-14 10:59:32
188.   Frip
185 Most unintentionally funny post of the day.
2008-10-14 11:06:38
189.   kinbote
When I saw Stairs make contact, I honestly thought the ball might leave the stadium. I think that detail makes last night's loss more bearable. I was watching the game recorded on my DVR, and I had just finished re-watching Kuo's 6 straight strikes to retire Werth and Utley. I believe I may have uttered the words "World Series" to my wife, so if you want to pin this loss on me I'll take it.

This will be the experience they'll talk about next year when they say we didn't have enough of it this year.

2008-10-14 11:07:43
190.   delias man
If anybody wants to buy my 2 season tickets from me for tomorrows game, they can be had. Face at $45 each in Res 23. I can email them to you. Not bailing, just going to sit with my friends elsewhere. joshua1302s at yahoo dot com Thanks
2008-10-14 11:08:22
191.   MC Safety
If you want to have a fairly happy rest of the day, I'd like to suggest you don't visit Mike's Baseball Rants.
2008-10-14 11:08:42
192.   cargill06
189 Oh, I can totally top you. When Wade came in I told my buddy just get Burrell out the guys behind him aren't hitting HR's. Than when Furcal BB in the 8th, I said man if Ethier GIDP he won't be very happy.
2008-10-14 11:09:19
193.   old dodger fan
I'd rather be lucky than good.

Some of it is bad luck, some is bad decisions and some is pretty good hitting by the Phils. Give them their due. When they needed big hits they got them.

But it's not over.

2008-10-14 11:10:37
194.   adrian beltre
189, 192

yeah after all the pitching changes, i told my friend on the phone that despite all of it, i didn't think the dodgers could lose because they were thoroughly outplaying the phillies. then victorino hit it out.

2008-10-14 11:14:31
195.   Eric Stephen
For considerably longer than a split second, I thought for sure the Stairs ball was leaving the stadium too.

Jacob Burch made the point that he didn't want the list to be Stargell, Piazza, McGwire, and Stairs, that something just didn't seem right about that.

I was kind of hoping Ethier would pull a Guerrero and slam his glove to the ground, just so in 2031 I can go see that photo at the library.

2008-10-14 11:18:04
196.   Jim Hitchcock
183 Four, or was it five, hard hit line drives hit right at Phillies infielders, one for a double play.

Luck is always part of the game, is all I'm saying.

2008-10-14 11:20:17
197.   John Hale
I think its impossible to not come off high and mighty but "Mikes Rants" seems almost written to make me appreciate Dodger Thoughts even more. I read that and was getting torqued off and realized what he wrote is exactly how I don't want to see this series. I guess its the difference between thinking about something and ranting about something. I guess its truth in advertising (blog titling).
2008-10-14 11:30:59
198.   ToyCannon
Just wanted to add this regarding Torre and Kuo. While Kuo may have appeared to be well rested for Monday, the fact was that on Sunday he was up and throwing in the bullpen for almost two innings. I don't think he was as well rested as some seem to think here. It stands out to me because I was quite irritated that Joe was wasting him in the bullpen with a huge lead knowing that he couldn't pitch in back to back games. He never got in the game Sunday but he threw a lot of pitches in the bullpen.
2008-10-14 11:36:57
199.   delias man
198 Exactly. I wanted Kuo to come finish that game with the lead, and that reason that he was up. Brox could have went 2 strong last night if he was rested.
2008-10-14 11:39:10
200.   underdog
Well, for some reason I decided it was worth posting an attempt at a smackdown back on Mike's Rants, after his latest Russell Martin potshot. I don't know why I bothered, really, but I do feel a bit better at least.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-10-14 11:46:01
201.   Eric Stephen
Excellent work!
2008-10-14 11:51:29
202.   overkill94
My friend has 2 tickets for tomorrow's game that he needs to get rid of:

Reserve, aisle 16, row G

He's asking for $70 apiece which is less than he paid for them. Please e-mail me at ndurazo at gmail dot com if you're interested. He can e-mail the tickets through Ticketfast.

2008-10-14 11:52:41
203.   bhsportsguy
I broke Rule 1 for the first time that I can recall ever at a sporting event when I saw Stairs ball leave his bat.

It was an almost silent Rule 1 violation and I surprised myself that I even said it because I am usually real careful about that stuff in places like Dodger Stadium.

2008-10-14 11:53:15
204.   underdog
Oh good lord... I hope it's not sick and wrong to laugh at this. But apparently the Angel Island fire up here was caused at least in part by...

Is this straight out of the Simpsons or what?

2008-10-14 11:53:48
205.   underdog
203 If ever there was a place where even 7 year old fans should have been allowed to curse freely, that was it.
2008-10-14 11:58:16
206.   Jim Hitchcock
204 Bart would laugh. Krusty would laugh. Lisa would cry. Homer would try to eat it (mmmm, squirrel on a stick).

Me, I'm still deciding...

2008-10-14 11:58:30
207.   Eric Stephen
I called my brother after the game, but his 15-year old son answered the phone. I started talking about the game, and my nephew asked me if he should hand the phone to his dad or not. I said, "I don't know, are you allowed to hear curse words yet?" :)
2008-10-14 11:58:48
208.   bhsportsguy
198 When Durbin gave up the runs, I remembered what you told me back in August when the Dodgers were playing the Phillies and about the Phillies middle relief.
2008-10-14 12:00:44
209.   Jacob Burch
Saying un-PG language was the first thing that went through my head (and a good portion of my text message in and out boxes are just that), but the Stairs homerun will forever be pre-accented by my audible memory of Eric Stephen saying "oh no" in this semi-silent, prophetic tone.
2008-10-14 12:01:28
210.   Eric Stephen
Was there a new Mad Men this week? That would be a nice reward to watch on the off day this evening.
2008-10-14 12:02:22
211.   Humma Kavula
210 I was silent during the Stairs home run.

My reaction was to Victorino's homer. "That's trouble," I said. And it was.

2008-10-14 12:02:42
212.   Humma Kavula
211 doesn't actually refer to any particular post.
2008-10-14 12:03:18
213.   Bob Timmermann
An extremely creepy Mad Men was on Sunday.
2008-10-14 12:03:53
214.   KG16
I think it's safe to say that Dodger fans now feel about Matt Stairs the way Red Sox fans feel about Bucky Dent.
2008-10-14 12:05:56
215.   KG16
204 - I have to laugh at that because of a hypothetical from my first year in law school. suffice it to say, "pyromaniac ferret" became a running joke among my classmates.
2008-10-14 12:06:53
216.   Disabled List
214 My initial thought when Stairs hit the HR was, "Matt [expletive deleted] Stairs???!?!?"

Except that the expletive was not actually deleted.

2008-10-14 12:07:24
217.   Eric Stephen
Sometime on my 2+ hour drive home last night I had already mentally linked the two 8th inning HRs to Ozzie (Victorino) and Clark (Stairs). Although I didn't really have an overwhelming desire to punch Stairs in the face.
2008-10-14 12:09:22
218.   cargill06
210 When I saw Victorino's swing and the ball flight my main concern was that I hoped to ball bounce far enough in front of the wall that it had a chance to bounce over for a ground rule double. As you could imagine I was very suprised when I saw it clear the fence.
2008-10-14 12:09:57
219.   bhsportsguy
214 I don't know, Matt Stairs, who I think the last time I saw him at Dodger Stadium, he hit a home run for the Blue Jays (retrosheet to the rescue), does hit home runs.

Uttering Bucky Dent in the Commonwealth probably still gets you drawn and quartered.

2008-10-14 12:11:06
220.   cargill06
214 I would've been way more heart-broken if Hamels hit that HR than Stairs. Because that's more of the offensive equivelant to Dent.
2008-10-14 12:12:17
221.   cargill06
220 Ok, Carlos Ruiz.
2008-10-14 12:12:23
222.   bhsportsguy
I still believe that despite home field advantage, if and its a big if, the Dodgers can get past Hamels tomorrow night, I like the pitching matchups for game 6 and a possible game 7.
2008-10-14 12:13:41
223.   Eric Stephen
Same here. I was thinking, I hope Howard doesn't score on this double.

Speaking of another double, I was hoping the Loney double in the 1st wouldn't have hit the wall but rather bounced on the track first. Manny surely would have scored on the play, rather than get stopped at 3B because of the perfect carom off the wall.

2008-10-14 12:15:18
224.   D4P
After the 1988 WS, I'm not sure Dodger fans have much room to complain about unlikely homeruns.

Hatcher and Davis combined for 3 HRs, after having combined for 3 HRs the entire season.

And, oh yeah: there was that Kirk Gibson guy.

And as for complaining about Myers's hits in game 2: Hershisher had more hits in the 1988 WS than Canseco and McGwire combined.

2008-10-14 12:15:46
225.   Eric Stephen
I don't like having to have this conversation, but what was the most crushing Game 4 blown lead at home this year?

Lakers v. Celtics or Dodgers v. Phillies?

I'm sticking with basketball right now, even though the pain still lingers from last evening.

2008-10-14 12:16:49
226.   cargill06
223 He must've produced some sick back spin since he swung so hard down on the ball. I guess maybe that's why it didn't want to come down.
2008-10-14 12:17:36
227.   cargill06
224 It doesn't count I was 3, I have plenty of room to complain.
2008-10-14 12:18:47
228.   Harold M Johnson
225 Lakers was worse, that was a complete and total collapse. The Dodgers made just a few mistakes at the wrong time and it was over. The Lakers slowly gave up a massive lead, each basket was like another sucker punch. It was the worst thing I've ever seen in sports.
2008-10-14 12:22:31
229.   bhsportsguy
224 Unlikely home runs happen all the time. Having seen Kuo hit the last of a back to back to back, 4+1, David Ross's walk-off, the Killer Tomato's walk-off, DeWitt and Berroa go back to back, and in the way back machine, Bobby Welch's solo shot off Mario Soto, I can say that almost every home run I have seen was always unexpected.

Cerainly, when someone like Ryan Howard or Manny comes up, there is greater chance of it but for the most part, it remains the singular event that cause a crowd get tremendously loud or quiet.

2008-10-14 12:22:36
230.   milkshakeballa
Hey guys.

3 tickets for tomorrow night's game.

2 RF Pavilion Seats

1 individual Loge Section seat

Just looking for face value...

email me at

2008-10-14 12:24:20
231.   Satchmo
I lurk, I lurk, I so appreciate everything you people write. And now I have to blurt.

I would like to be as magnanimous as Jon and give Torre a pass on this one. Because, yes, so many balls were stung and right at the Phillies defense. But listening to the game on the radio, I felt like Torre was getting in his own way. Absolutely overmanaging. A nervous guy with a spatula, flipping the burger six or seven times. And honest to god, I was ready to push away from that feeling this morning, but I keep reading a variation of the following quote, regarding the pulling of Lowe after 5: "He had to work hard every inning," said Torre. "We were probably only going to get one more inning out of him anyway." I hope this quote was invented by Simers and became viral. In what universe is an additional inning from your starter in the post season something to shrug away?

2008-10-14 12:25:31
232.   bhsportsguy
I pretty much forgot the Lakers' loss to the Celtics after a few days.

When you have seen every LA Laker championship run since 1972, I tend to rarely complain about any losses. Okay, except 1984.

1984 for the Lakers, 1978 for the Dodgers, and one of those Rams teams in the '70s are the teams where I really wanted them to win. And when they lost, I thought they would never win.

2008-10-14 12:27:16
233.   underdog
210 There was a new Mad Men and I watched it last night. Excellent episode, with a creepy new "Bonjour Tristesse" subplot.
2008-10-14 12:28:44
234.   Sam DC
Tom Boswell opens the floor for further discussion of Joe Torre's performance, if you're so inclined.

2008-10-14 12:30:10
235.   Jim Hitchcock
Okay, first the flaming squirrel, and now a guy at put a poptart in the microwave. For 60 seconds.

Unbelievable the amount of smoke generated. I think you could see the plume from space.

2008-10-14 12:30:26
236.   Jim Hitchcock
--at work--
2008-10-14 12:30:57
237.   Jon Weisman
231 - I'm not trying to be "magnanimous." It was just my honest opinion.
2008-10-14 12:31:27
238.   bhsportsguy
231 I heard him say that. And I have seen practically every commenter on this board at one time or another say that if you are only going to get one more inning at best from your starter, you should think about taking him out.

Now, to be fair, that comment usually involves the choice of pinch-hitting for him prior to that next inning.

But again, Let's say Lowe goes one more inning, if he gives up a hit, he's probably gone and then you bring in those same guys anyway.

Kershaw had only pitched 1 inning in over 2 weeks, all they wanted was one scoreless inning from him, he had certainly done that before. If you think he was in a spot he should not be in, then why is he on the roster, he came in at the beginning of an inning and had Howard 1-2, I would guess that Howard's average when behind 1-2 is probably less than .150 but things didn't work out.

And again top of the 8th, 2 run lead, Kuo, Wade and Broxton, you had to like the odds.

2008-10-14 12:31:29
239.   trainwreck
Why is everyone selling their tickets? It is not over yet.
2008-10-14 12:32:48
240.   bhsportsguy
239 Its a tough sell, middle of the week, 5:22 start time, Dodgers down 3-1. And the price for even the top deck is tough to sell.
2008-10-14 12:34:09
241.   trainwreck
Yeah, but people knew time of game and price before.

People should not give up already.

2008-10-14 12:34:25
242.   Harold M Johnson
239 Yeah, seriously! This thing is just getting exciting. The Dodgers have to avoid elimination at home tomorrow night, it's going to be the best or worst game at the stadium this year with no room inbetween. Send it back to Philly!!!
2008-10-14 12:35:49
243.   bhsportsguy
241 If you were like me, you bought some extra tix and in my case, some free tix have caused me to have some extra tix to get rid of.

I do think that if you bought tickets to sell them to make money, you are in a tough spot.

2008-10-14 12:38:45
244.   bhsportsguy
But then again, maybe for some fans, their season is over.

2008-10-14 12:39:26
245.   trainwreck
No idea why anyone thought the Bengals were going to be good.
2008-10-14 12:40:04
246.   cargill06
BP says we have a 15.2% to still win the series which is the equivelant of drawing to a 7 outer on the river. I don't know about you but I'm still very nervous if someone has 7 outs on the river and I've lost more than my fair share of those situations.
2008-10-14 12:40:20
247.   Bob Timmermann
Perhaps the Treasury can add an infusion of capital into the secondary ticket sales market for Dodgers NLCS tickets.

I would hate for this to turn into the Panic of 2008.

This is no time to feast on the goo inside people's skulls!

2008-10-14 12:43:21
248.   Humma Kavula
247 posting as Zombie Kavula

Rats! Well, keep me posted.

2008-10-14 12:45:23
249.   regfairfield
I think the only really boneheaded thing Torre did is run Wade out there every night for multiple innings like he was Mariano, even when we didn't need to. It was only a matter of time before that burned us.
2008-10-14 12:51:22
250.   scareduck
204 - sounds like a great name for a band.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-10-14 12:54:22
251.   scareduck
231 - reading that, it reminds me of what the Dodgers' 2008 season would look like if they made a movie out of it, and they cast Joe Torre as Harry Dean Stanton by way of Repo Man.
2008-10-14 12:55:00
252.   Humma Kavula

Results 1 - 10 of about 425,000 for flaming squirrel.

425,000? We are experiencing a flaming squirrel epidemic!

2008-10-14 12:55:23
253.   nick
Stairs, alas, is a fastball hitter; though he was better five years seems to me like the Dodgers got killed on low and in pitchs to lefties, right in the happy zone, all night long....

As a Yankee fan I'm here to nod, sadly, about Torre. On the other hand, the best Dodger pitchers got beat. So what do you do? I hated the Kuo decision; but I'd notice that he was 5 mph down on the fastball and didn't throw Howard a good breaking ball--sounds like hindsight, but he looked like a different pitcher in the 8th.

2008-10-14 12:56:41
254.   LogikReader

The Dodgers/Phillies Game 4 had to hurt more.


Unlike the Finals, I don't really think the Dodgers are necessarily out of it yet (disregard my comment in the last thread :) ). In June, I knew it was over. The Celtics out-played the Lakers in every fashion the whole week.

Also unlike the Lakers, we all know the Lakers will be back this year and better than ever. For the Dodgers, there are a lot more ?'s.

2008-10-14 12:57:08
255.   bhsportsguy
The Dodgers averaged more than 50% more viewing households in the second half of the season to finish with 113,000 average numbers of households for their Fox West broadcasts for the season up 4% from last year.

In the first half of the year, the Dodgers were hovering just under 90,000 households but in the second half they were averaging near 140,000 households. Certainly winning more games help but you will certainly hear Scott Boras talk about the Manny effect to both the attendance and television viewers when he meets with the Dodgers.

2008-10-14 12:57:49
256.   scareduck
251 - and now that I think about it --

The last sentence of that clip describes managing a major league baseball team pretty nicely.

2008-10-14 13:01:44
257.   dzzrtRatt
Wade became Joe Torre's latest pet rock.

He plays with them too much and they become pebbles.

But the rot began with the boneheaded idea of putting Kershaw in to start the sixth. He's not a reliever. The game was thisclose. And he's 20. Before the postseason started, they were talking about leaving Kershaw off the roster because of inning limits -- and much as I like Kershaw, that made sense to me. And, instead, he's put into one of the most crucial situations in the game?

I realize, he's left-handed and that gives him magic powers over left-handed batters. He didn't blow the game, to be sure, but putting him in was the first step on the road to this disaster.

2008-10-14 13:01:50
258.   Jon Weisman
Is this glass half-empty or half-full?,0,6349922.story

"UCLA faces a Stanford team on Saturday unlike any the Bruins have seen in recent seasons, one certainly good enough to score its first points in the Rose Bowl since 2002."

2008-10-14 13:02:06
259.   JJ42
Speaking of tickets, I am selling mine because I have to work in San Diego on Wednesday. If anyone wants a pair of tickets in Field 47, let me know. I'm asking for less than face at $150 for both. Your karma is needed at the Stadium! email me at jjlacs at hotmail dot com.
2008-10-14 13:02:50
260.   LogikReader
Jon, for the first time this year, I say:


2008-10-14 13:05:16
261.   bhsportsguy
The move to Washington has not helped the Nationals, they had the lowest attendance ever for a team in a new ballpark and they averaged just 8,000 households per game on their regional tv network. The DC market has 2 million households, the 8th largest market in the country.
2008-10-14 13:11:48
262.   overkill94
239 My buddy's only selling his tickets because I was able to get 4 great tickets and he liked the upgrade. Not sure where or when he got his tickets in the first place.

Once again:

2 Reserve level, aisle 16, row G for $70 apiece

ndurazo at gmail dot com

2008-10-14 13:15:14
263.   Dark Horse
257- I have to agree with that. I love Kershaw, but I thought putting him in at that juncture was a disaster. And--much as I believe in his future--feel his use this season has been a hair premature.

Also, I realize reading Plaschke is not the thing to do after a Dodger loss--or victory, for that matter--but his nonsensical "More Pitching!" column this morning really disturbs me. I'm paranoiac enough to believe he's enough of a McCourt mouthpiece that column is essentially a campaign to prepare the fans for the non-signing of Manny. And, much as this team needs (at least) one more starter in the off-season to replace Penny and Lowe, especially if we're planning to watch innings for Bills/Kershaw/McDonald all, we really need offense. Even with Ramirez, this offense is problematic. Without him, we should be dreaming of our #1 draft pick in 2010. With our luck, still another pitcher.

2008-10-14 13:15:53
264.   old dodger fan
261 The Nats are awful and have no following in DC. Even so, 8,000! That's terrible. I confess to being enough of a baseball junkie to have watched a few of them. I do like the stadium though.
2008-10-14 13:17:55
265.   LogikReader

Is it possible the Nats telecasts get more viewers from people who watch the other team play on Extra Innings... than their own market???

2008-10-14 13:22:40
266.   old dodger fan
You know you need intravention when you spend an evening watching the Nats play the Pirates on TV.
2008-10-14 13:29:12
267.   cargill06
Even with Ramirez, this offense is problematic. Without him, we should be dreaming of our #1 draft pick in 2010.

Can I call a rule 6 violation?

2008-10-14 13:32:00
268.   Frip
231 ...Torre was getting in his own way. Absolutely overmanaging. A nervous guy with a spatula, flipping the burger six or seven times.

Ha! Love that last bit. Perfect.

2008-10-14 13:34:05
269.   D4P
Torre was getting in his own way

Funny. Wasn't Torre just saying that Kemp was "fighting himself"? Maybe managers need days off once in a while too. Send Torre out to coach first base, and send Mariano in to manage for a day.

2008-10-14 13:36:53
270.   rancidnsx
Guys, anyone want to pick up two tickets for tomorrow (wednesday) at face value? They are side by side pair section 12 top deck, row J. I paid $122.60 for them. Please email me at Tix will be emailed. Thanks!
2008-10-14 13:44:16
271.   Eric Enders
I hope there are still this many people wanting to sell tickets after we win the next three games to advance. I have a plane ticket for L.A. on October 24 and I intend to use it!
2008-10-14 13:44:47
272.   Bob Timmermann
So you're coming out for the Breeders' Cup?
2008-10-14 13:45:23
273.   bhsportsguy
271 Have you been off following UT football, welcome.
2008-10-14 13:46:52
274.   LogikReader

There's always the Lakers preseason game in Ontario.

2008-10-14 13:51:54
275.   bhsportsguy
I would say this, if you don't have tix for tomorrow, please consider some of the folks who have listed their tix here, personally, I'm just happy that I got Dodger fans to take mine even if I had to sell them at a loss like the Dodgers will have to sell Jones and Pierre when they resign Manny.
2008-10-14 13:52:56
276.   bhsportsguy
275 On the otherhand between Stub Hub, Barry Tickets and EBay, my guess is that there are at least 7-8K tickets available in the secondary market.
2008-10-14 13:53:09
277.   Icaros
Decades from now, I'll tell my grandchildren that I was there for the Dodger Thoughts NLCS Game 5 Ticket Purge of 2008.
2008-10-14 13:54:01
278.   D4P
273 and 275

Punctuation, punctuation, punctuation.

2008-10-14 13:56:07
279.   Eric Stephen
Phillies' announcer and ex-reliever Larry Andersen was more positively channeling bhsportsguy with his call of Stairs' HR: (one word NSFW)

2008-10-14 14:08:00
280.   Lexinthedena
I thought the Kershaw decision was fine. Yes he's 20, but he also has amazing stuff, and did not miss by much last night.
The Phillies just did what they had to do. Why so much blame? It was Manuel who made more bad moves.
2008-10-14 14:17:33
281.   JoeyP
I'd think that people would want to see game 5, since it could be the last Dodger home game of the season.
2008-10-14 14:21:01
282.   milkshakeballa
I am not sellinh my ticket's because I do not want to go, I am selling my tickets because I cannot make it.
2008-10-14 14:21:03
283.   milkshakeballa
I am not sellinh my ticket's because I do not want to go, I am selling my tickets because I cannot make it.
2008-10-14 14:23:15
284.   Bob Timmermann
Did anyone else notice that on Sunday, the crowd cheered Brian Baumgartner, but on Monday, the reaction to Barbra Streisand was, shall we say, mixed?
2008-10-14 14:25:52
285.   Eric Stephen
The crowd is more forgiving to those with "special needs."
2008-10-14 14:26:21
286.   dsfan
Well, Pierre, despite the caught stealing, did some good things, so maybe Torre made a good move there?

Yeah, maybe he should have stuck with Lowe, but it's fairly logical why he didn't. He had a pretty fresh bullpen, including three lefties.

As for Kershaw and Kuo, Howard deserves credit for getting on base against them.

I wouldn't pin this on Joe. The Phillies, abetted by randomness of baseballs going into gloves, did some impressive things.

2008-10-14 14:26:49
287.   JoeyP
I'm paranoiac enough to believe he's enough of a McCourt mouthpiece that column is essentially a campaign to prepare the fans for the non-signing of Manny. And, much as this team needs (at least) one more starter in the off-season to replace Penny and Lowe

I think the Dodgers gain more from signing CC to a long-term deal, rather than re-upping Manny. Manny will enter his decline phase soon. Sure, the Dodgers offense is bad, but with the type of starting pitching at the top (Billingsley, Kershaw, CC) ~ the team wouldnt need to score as many runs.

Take Lowe off, and put Manny on for the entire season - I dont think the Dodgers are that much better than 84 wins. And that number would decline as Manny got older.

The GM is going to have a real challenge this year. The smart play IMO would be to build for 2010 and beyond by letting go of the older vets (Nomar, Kent, Blake, Manny, Furcal). Sign CC (and the pitching staff is set from 2009 - 2014). I fear however, that Ned will go for the short term (2009) fix and bypass some of the long-term building blocks (Tex, CC).

If Ned wants to build long-term (sign CC), but still be competitive - he could let Manny go but sign a Pat Burrell for LF just to get by for 2009-2010.

2008-10-14 14:34:40
288.   cargill06
287 Or what about the wild card in the OF? Andruw Jones loses 30-40 pounds, gives us a 95 OPS+ and play a hell of a defensive CF.
2008-10-14 14:34:50
289.   Bob Timmermann
As a heads up (or advertising), the ALCS game thread will be on the Griddle tonight. So look for it closer to game time.

JD Drew bats leadoff for the Red Sox tonight.

2008-10-14 14:44:30
290.   Lexinthedena
263 If Manny leaves, and the Dodgers have a rough year, expect to see Plashke columns bashing the Dodgers for not re-signing Manny.

Plashke is a mouthpiece for himself.

2008-10-14 14:45:07
291.   Jim Hitchcock
284 We kept getting crowd shots of Garry and Penny Marshall, Pat Sajak, (and was that Mary Hart sitting behind home plate?), but where in the heck was Wink Martindale???
2008-10-14 14:45:12
292.   still bevens
289 I like it. As much as Red Sox nation is annoying the people who run the team aren't stupid or unwilling to try things that run against baseball orthodoxy.
2008-10-14 14:48:01
293.   Kevin Lewis

Still can't decide whether I should play tomorrow night or go to the game.

2008-10-14 14:49:36
294.   Lexinthedena
293 Dude,

We're in first place...barely. We don't give up homeruns in late inning situations. We don't leave runners stranded on 2nd.

Who's been better to you?

2008-10-14 14:50:34
295.   Bob Timmermann
There's also the whole thing about Jacoby Ellsbury not being able to get a hit or draw a walk and being essentially useless.
2008-10-14 14:50:49
296.   cargill06
289 Coco or Jacoby in CF?
2008-10-14 14:55:20
297.   Kevin Lewis

That was awesome. Plus, I love playing, so I think it might be the most cathartic thing for me. We beat the other 1st place team, and I come home to see Chad pitching a shutout into the 7th.

2008-10-14 14:56:26
298.   Eric Stephen
Not sure if this was posted last night or not (although MC Safety sort of brought this up after the game), but Broxton had not allowed a HR at Dodger Stadium since July 24, 2006 (Mike Cameron), a span of 106 IP (including playoffs).

Between HR, Broxton's numbers at home:

106 IP, 76 H, 36/145 BB/K, 2.21 ERA

2008-10-14 14:56:36
299.   unlazy4sports
My friend just told me that we have a single seat available for tomorrow's game, someone backed out and couldn't make it. 51 FD, Row O. He spent $100 a piece for these tickets, so he's just trying to get that back. Remember, it's just one seat, so you'd have to sit with us. Don't worry, we're not one of those that throw food at visiting fans. Email me at unlazy4sports at gmail dot com.
2008-10-14 14:57:02
300.   Lexinthedena
Tonight is Chad's time to shine.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-10-14 14:58:18
301.   Lexinthedena
298 If you take distance into consideration, shouldn't Stairs' home run count as two long balls?
2008-10-14 14:58:49
302.   Eric Stephen
I hope he has some shining left for his start tomorrow then! :)
2008-10-14 14:58:55
303.   Bob Timmermann
I hope Chad shines doing whatever he's doing tonight.

Unfortunately, he ain't pitching.

2008-10-14 15:00:23
304.   Eric Stephen
If Stairs HR had been hit near the wildfires, the fires would have died out due to the oxygen being sucked out of the area.
2008-10-14 15:03:27
305.   Lexinthedena

Forgive me, I worked this weekend, so my sense of time is all outta wack.

2008-10-14 15:07:51
306.   Kevin Lewis
Did anyone here watch Jericho while it was still on?
2008-10-14 15:08:10
307.   Kevin Lewis

That would solve my dilemma.

2008-10-14 15:10:42
308.   Bob Timmermann
My hope for humanity last night came from the fact that the two guys to my left were very vocal Dodger fans and the two guys to their left were very vocal Phillies fans. And although they were all trash talking and drinking beers, they actually got along well and all left in a good mood.

Well, two of them left in a better mood than the other two.

I also noticed last night that when an overwhelming majority of a sold out crowd stays until the end, the stairways going to the parking lots are really congested.

2008-10-14 15:12:52
309.   Kevin Lewis

Those stairs are a problem with only 30K left in the stands. Every time I walk to my car from the Top Deck it takes an extra 15 minutes because of the log jam. I hope the renovations address this.

2008-10-14 15:17:21
310.   Bob Timmermann
I think a problem with the stairs now is that with the new parking system, you end up parking based on your entrance instead of parking near your lot.

The parking lots were designed back in 1962 to match up to a section, so you would have minimal walking.

I think that plan fell apart sometime in May of 1962.

2008-10-14 15:18:54
311.   underdog
302 Maybe he's got the Shinning.

(You mean "Shining".
Quiet! Do you want to get sued?)

2008-10-14 15:21:35
312.   bhsportsguy
310 That's so true, even 2 years ago, before the new parking system, I would park at lots 32 or 34 and walk across towards the reserved level instead of taking the stairs.

Now, I have gotten used to the one stairwell and then down to the Sunset lot for my usual route that works quite well.

2008-10-14 15:26:21
313.   BlueinBerkeley
Well, I am still digesting last night-not even the Lakers produced as much pain in me as the Stairs shot did-so I guess my posting name has two meanings this week.

I just want to thank you guys for all the support. While we all suffer inside, we all suffer together, and that means something. I'm 22 and a lifelong Dodger fan, and I feel like I just took my first step into relating to the game of baseball and to the Dodgers; no other team or sport gives me so much joy and so much heartbreak (sometimes in the span of two days).

2008-10-14 15:28:07
314.   D4P
Do you know how Tony Jackson feels about the stairs...?
2008-10-14 15:29:17
315.   Jim Hitchcock
311 The Shelley Hack version, or the Rebecca De Mornay one?
2008-10-14 15:33:41
316.   Kevin Lewis

I am afraid to ask.

By the way, which entrance is the best to park outside of if I am walking to the Top Deck?

2008-10-14 15:38:37
317.   D4P
I don't have a punchline. I meant to say "Do we know..."
2008-10-14 15:43:31
318.   bhsportsguy
316 Probably Sunset since you can't park outside of the Downtown (Stadium Way off the 110) Exit.
2008-10-14 15:50:09
319.   Kevin Lewis

Yea, it looks like you are right on

2008-10-14 15:50:37
320.   underdog
Further proof that, more often than not, you can't buy what coaches and GMs say.

From an article on the Detroit Lions' QB situation this morning:

>>Mayhew did stress that, despite media reports, wide receiver Roy Williams is not on the block.<<

In the news this afternoon: Roy Williams traded to the Cowboys (for a 1st round pick plus two more picks).

2008-10-14 15:55:55
321.   cargill06
320 Romo/Johnson may get into bad habits trying to look to throw to Roy Williams in practice, depending which Roy Williams they're throwing to.
2008-10-14 16:15:29
322.   seesdifferent
Joe Torre seems to me to be similar to the generals who plan for the previous war. First he leaves somebody in too long, that doesn't work out, so then the next time, he jerks the pitcher too fast. He doesn't seem to think ahead. I could go on and on. His other substitutions are just as suspect. Mariano Rivera can make a manager look like a genius. That's Joe Torre. He may be a mellow steadying influence, but he can't manage a game worth a durn.
2008-10-14 16:22:56
323.   Kevin Lewis
Why did I watch the Plaschke video?
2008-10-14 16:30:47
324.   Pedro Astacio
Tomorrow is the 20th anniversary of the Gibson home run. The stars are all aligned. Let's win one more.
2008-10-14 16:31:30
325.   PDH5204
198 Re Kuo, there is a more human point to be made in his regard. If Kuo feels pain when he pitches, then on the level of simply human (as it were), if he warms up, he pitches. We don't ask humans to feel pain just in case. So while I question Joe's game management, I question his humanity as well.
2008-10-14 16:32:35
326.   dzzrtRatt
If Colletti came to McCourt with a plan to keep Manny and Furcal and sign Sabathia (while jettisoning all the other vets whose contracts are up), what do you think McCourt would say to him?
2008-10-14 16:37:14
327.   ImprobableImpossible
"You're fired."
2008-10-14 16:39:18
328.   Kevin Lewis

What would it take payroll wise?

I honestly think McCourt is too enamored with what Manny has done with the crowd, PR, and sales to let him go without a big fight.

2008-10-14 16:40:10
329.   Marty
326 Release the hounds.
2008-10-14 16:44:52
330.   bhsportsguy
325 I think if anything, the Dodgers have been very consertative with Kuo.

322 I cannot think of one manager who has not had bullpen issues.

Except Jim Tracy from 2002-2004.

2008-10-14 16:53:41
331.   Strike4
"We've gotta keep Lowe, he's from Boston too. While you're at it, please propose a trade of yourself for Epstein."
2008-10-14 16:54:35
332.   Eric Stephen
"Well, since we came back from that 3-1 deficit and went on to beat the Rays in the World Series, I trust you Ned."
2008-10-14 16:56:50
333.   Frip
I don't see why Bonnie Tyler never gets to sing the National Anthem.
2008-10-14 16:58:11
334.   wronghanded
326 What!? No Teixeira?
2008-10-14 17:11:04
335.   D4P
"Well, since you mingle at parties, I trust you Ned. Unlike that last jerk. He never mingled!"
2008-10-14 17:12:13
336.   Harold M Johnson
just got this from the dodgers' front office:

No one ever said this would be easy, right?

So we want to give you a few important facts to remember…

Ten times this season, we've won three straight games…

Seventeen times this season, we've won back-to-back games on the road…

We're 12-7 in our last 19 road games…

We've won 23 of our last 34 games…

We've got Billingsley, Kuroda, and Lowe, each of whom has shown that he can win in the postseason, going on regular rest starting tomorrow night…

And tomorrow, when 56,800 fans will be showing up on our doorstep, marks the 20th anniversary that a guy named Kirk Gibson hobbled up to home plate against the best closer in baseball and with two out in the bottom of the ninth inning and his team down by a run, hit a two-run homer that won Game 1 of the 1988 World Series and took a team that no one said could beat a highly-favored team to its last World Championship…

If we don't think we can do it, neither will anyone else. But if we believe, like Tommy and the '88 Dodgers did back then, it'll be all the sweeter when we pull it off.

Hang in there everyone and keep thinking positively!

2008-10-14 17:13:17
337.   ucladodger
Francona starting Wakefield is probably worse than any decision torre has made so far. Did he actually think he would do well tonight??
2008-10-14 17:13:28
338.   Jack Shul
Apropos of the takeaway: I took my 83 year old father to last Saturday's victory over the Cubs. With his arthritis, he could only sit for five innings, but it was great to be there. He had a great time, the man who took me to my first baseball game (NY Mets) 40 years ago. He took a bad fall the next day and is in the hospital. I am not sure if he will recover or what his mental state is going to be if he recovers physically. But I have that game and that moment to thank the Dodgers for this year. I "bought" World Series tickets, and we'll see, but I have already gotten more than I could have hoped for this year.
2008-10-14 17:15:42
339.   Lee Corbett
The Rays are good
2008-10-14 17:20:06
340.   Bob Hendley
338 - Best for your father, you're a good kid. And best to the Litle Weisman that roared, and his father.
2008-10-14 17:24:00
341.   wronghanded
338 Best of luck to your father in his recovery, I'm sure he thinks just as fondly of the game as you do. My thoughts go out to you, may he see the Dodgers make a great comeback to the World Series and thank you for sharing that story.
2008-10-14 17:27:23
342.   Jon Weisman
338 - Will be hoping for the best, Jack.
2008-10-14 17:29:45
343.   ToyCannon
From 83 year old fathers to six month old sons, this place has it all. They may not be aware of it but they are a big part of Dodger Thoughts.

340 The Little Weisman who Roared sounds great.

If only it was possible. I mean coming back from 3 - 1 is possible, beating the Rays, are you kidding? They are changing the fabric of baseball.

2008-10-14 17:37:43
344.   Lee Corbett
338 timely reminder that the best thing about sport is the memory of the feelings you had and who you shared them with. Sport seems to provide a great marker of the different phases of our lives. Best to your father.
2008-10-14 17:39:57
345.   Frip
I've seen old people fall, it's a sad spectacle. We take walking upright for granted. Then we get old and it's not so easy. I'm sorry about your father. I saw my dad crash while trying to step over the dog gate in my living room. Not pretty. It's hard seeing a former proud athlete taken down by a 24 inch baby gate.
2008-10-14 17:44:10
346.   D4P
I hate the idea of falling. The inability to stand and/or walk is one of my greatest fears associated with aging. Must be humiliating too, beyond inconvenient and dangerous. I've seen my mom fall twice (and she was only in her late 50s). I also discovered my great-grandmother (when I was kid) laying in a pool of her own blood after having fallen in her kitchen. I think she broke her hip that time.
2008-10-14 17:45:52
347.   D4P
Just another homerun for Willy Aybar.

Wakefield has broken 70 MPH on 2 pitches tonight. I'm surprised more kids don't try to be knuckleballers.

2008-10-14 17:57:52
348.   Strike4
Jack, very best wishes for your dad's speedy and complete recovery.

And here's hoping the 2008 Dodgers will be like his 1968 Mets in one way. The Mets beat the Phillies 4 games out of 7 in their last meetings of the 1968 season.

2008-10-14 17:58:58
349.   scooplew
What was our manager thinking? He's got Larry Cheney, who went 18-12 with an ERA of 1.92, tied for fifth in the National League, and he only uses him for three innings in relief against the Red Sox! Instead, Brooklyn manager Wilbert Robinson opts to start Rube Marquard twice, and he gets lit up both times, with an ERA of 5.73. And then Robinson brings back Jeff Pfeffer, who had already pitched twice in relief, to start the fifth game on one day of rest. I mean Pfeffer went 25-11, second most wins in the National League, and he doesn't get a start until Game 5 when we were already down in games three-to-one, and that's after we lost 2-1 in the BoSox in Game 4 when some kid named Ruth pitches a 14-inning complete game. I would not bring Robinson back. (This was 1916, the first year the the Dodgers/Robins reached the World Series.)
2008-10-14 18:01:22
350.   Humma Kavula
338 My best to you and your dad as well, Jack.

343 They're only changing the fabric of baseball because they're knocking the cover off of it. You've got to put the new fabric on it.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-10-14 18:09:43
351.   Bob Timmermann
Cheney and Pfeffer were both perceived as being too wild to be reliable starters in a big game. Marquard had pitched in a World Series before as had Coombs (who got the only win).

The start of Sherry Smith in Game 2 came out of the blue.

2008-10-14 18:11:36
352.   autumnlanding
MY takeaway

Disclaimer: the following is not based in any fact. In many cases what I say cannot be proved. This is nothing but grade F rambling. There will be grammatical errors as well as some spelling mistakes.

The question was raised to a friend over the differences between the Dodgers and the Rays. On a very high level, both teams are young, infused with a mix of veterans, top prospects, and names we've all heard on other teams throughout the years.

My friend said the difference was coaching and heart. To me, it's neither. Torre has proven himself to be a very level headed and seasoned manager. His decisions usually pan out. The rest of the staff gets the job done. And the dodgers have heart; I hear it in the background of the postgame press conferences (when we win). I saw it when we beat Haren and Webb. The issue with pitchers protecting hitters-- it's still open for debate as to the level of intensity of this "heart" thing, but I'm confident that good coaching, heart, along with obviously talent and playing good baseball at the right moments is what carried the Dodgers all the way to last night.

But then what happened?

And that's the point of my post. Last night had nothing to do with clutch hitting, pitching heat down the middle in 3-1 counts, bad management, nor anything else. It had nothing to do with anything the dodgers could control.

We lost last night because an unfavorable balance of karma in the baseball universe caused things to pan out the way they did. Unquantifiable forces were at play. How else can you explain the plotlines playing out exactly the way they did? Victorino? MATT STAIRS hitting the game deciding home run off our one-pitch closer? It's just too perfect. Only thing missing is a Jayson Werth series clinching walkoff.

How did this imbalance arise? That's where we get back to the Rays.

For years we have unloaded our top prospects on them for chum. This unfavorable exchange happened between the Dodgers and other teams too. Jae Seo? Hendrickson? Lugo? DANNY BAEZ???? > Aybar? Navarro? Edwin? Joel Guzman???

And that's just us and the Rays. What about the other dodger dump jobs we got close to nothing for. Werth? Cody Ross? Not saying we needed to keep them, just get SOMETHING FOR THEM.

So in my logicless mind, atrocious deals like that were swept under the rug. The rug is so big it even hides the contracts of Jones and Pierre. All it took was a little breeze to blow the bad karma the Dodgers way. Hey, look on the bright side; we're pretty good to have gotten this far with all this bad karma lying around.

That's just because we got the best broom on the market: Manny.

2008-10-14 18:12:16
353.   scooplew
338 My thoughts and prayers go out to your father. My mother, who is soon to be 88, visited us for a couple of weeks on the Monterey Peninsula -- she just left -- and we watched some of the playoffs. Her first job, as a teenager in Brooklyn, was across the street from Ebbets Field and she's been a Dodgers fan ever since. She, my late father, my sister and I went to the Coliseum on Opening Day in 1958 and sat in the Peristyle end. Baseball was always a great connection between my parents and me, as I know Jon is already learning. Here's hoping that you and your dad attend a World Series game together this year.
2008-10-14 18:14:21
354.   D4P
So in my logicless mind, atrocious deals like that were swept under the rug

AKA "Ned's hairpiece"

2008-10-14 18:29:55
355.   scooplew
351 Robinson also apparently wanted to throw the lefties Marquard and Smith against Boston's left-handed batters, including Larry Gardner, who led the team in RBI (62) and batting average (.308), Dick Hoblitzel and Harry Hooper. Interesting: Boston hit 14 homers as a team that year, the Robins (Dodgers) 28.
2008-10-14 18:31:28
356.   capdodger
352 Manny is more than a broom.

More like a Shop-Vac.

2008-10-14 18:37:32
357.   autumnlanding
354 - Yeah probably, I don't really keep up with the comments in this blog so I'm not privy to all the codenames.

RE: rays v. dodgers - I also would know nothing about stats and I'm not framing that comparison statistically, I'm just talking high level. And the karma force, I'm pretty sure its the same thing that causes you to get rivered in poker.

2008-10-14 18:53:34
358.   Dodgers49
A few threads ago there was an interesting discussion about a graphic that appeared on TV indicating there have been seven Japanese to play for the Dodgers in the team's history. Several people combined were able to name six but no one seemed sure of the identity of the seventh player. In fact, one poster went so far as to say the TV graphic was just plain wrong. :-) But I remembered this Press Release

that was issued when Kuroda was signed identifying him as the seventh player and naming the other six. The name of the "Japanese" player no one seemed able to come up with is none other than ... Dave Roberts. That's probably because many tend to think of him as African-American. However, the Dodgers count him as one of their seven Japanese players because his mother is Japanese.

2008-10-14 19:16:44
359.   Dodgers49
Boy, Tampa Bay is really putting a beating on Boston. Almost from the moment the playoffs started I've been looking forward to a Dodgers/Red Sox World Series. But it's not looking good at the moment. :-)
2008-10-14 19:24:35
360.   Who Is Karim Garcia
Good to Lexinthedena back. Not that you were gone, whatever.

KevinLewis... yes, I loved Jericho.

2008-10-14 19:31:59
361.   Who Is Karim Garcia

"Aybar? Navarro? Edwin? Joel Guzman?"

I don't think any of these guys were top prospects at the time they were traded, save for Navarro perhaps.

Jayson Werth ran out of health while he was with us.

Victorino was lost in the rule 5.

I know what you mean. It's hard to see guys we let go comeback and be successful. It's like finding your ex-girlfriend 5 years later and realizing she isn't the money-laundering, bad check writing, drank all the beer, slept with your brother girl you had broken up with.

It's baseball.

Manny's ball in Philly carries over the fence, Blake's ball get off the wall and not in Victorino's glove and we're talking 3-1 instead 1-3.

It's baseball.

Sometimes you lose.

That's just my take, but I loved reading your post.

2008-10-14 19:44:38
362.   Bob Timmermann
Guzman was probably the most highly regarded prospect when he was traded and he ended up not panning out.
2008-10-14 19:46:09
363.   kinbote
Sorry if this was posted already:

DeJesus excelling at shortstop in AFL.

2008-10-14 19:48:14
364.   kinbote
363 He's excelling at hitting--and he's playing shortstop.
2008-10-14 19:50:51
365.   Who Is Karim Garcia
Usually when I'm excelling I'm making pie charts-- and playing XBOX.

mmmmm, piecharts.

2008-10-14 21:05:26
366.   cargill06
Look at Johan Santana's B-R sponser, man that's bad karma.
2008-10-14 21:13:10
367.   KG16
It's like finding your ex-girlfriend 5 years later and realizing she isn't the money-laundering, bad check writing, drank all the beer, slept with your brother girl you had broken up with.

And I thought my past relationships were bad.

2008-10-14 21:13:34
368.   LogikReader

For the Phillies?

2008-10-14 21:18:25
369.   superbas
stop with the "it's baseball" argument, that doesn't get the conversation anywhere. obviously it's more than just baseball or we wouldn't be here in this little corner of the internet every day. there are more important things outside but that's life right? i can use the "that's life" argument for alot of things also but that wouldn't make anything better either.

it's time for these not-so-young-anymore "kids" to show me some heart tomorrow and play with pride and hunger. some of my favorites athletes like Billingsley, Kemp, Loney, Broxton, Kershaw. i'll be even more disappointed than yesterday if they don't compete tomorrow.

2008-10-14 21:19:24
370.   LogikReader
I've done it again. I completely forgot the Kings were playing tonight. Apparently, they're winning 3-2. I also forgot about their home opener. What's wrong with me?
2008-10-14 21:28:53
371.   cargill06
368 Yessssirr
2008-10-14 22:29:32
372.   Jon Weisman
369 - I don't mean this personally, at all. But don't tell me you're going to suggest that the kids have shown no heart, pride or hunger. Do you know how hard it is for a team to get this far? Did the comeback vs. Arizona or the Chicago series mean nothing?

The Dodgers don't need to prove anything. They need to try to win, and they will try to win. And they might or might not succeed. But don't sit here and try to make the case that they're robots or they don't care. If you've watched them like you say you have, you shouldn't doubt for a moment that they'll try to compete tomorrow. If you think they haven't shown you enough heart yet, then you are far too hard to please.

As the proprietor of this little corner of the Internet, I'm a firm believer that at the end of all the analysis, "it's baseball." It doesn't demean our interest in this sport or our passion for it to say so. It just acknowledges that we don't have ultimate control.

Losing a game doesn't mean you don't have heart, pride or hunger.

2008-10-14 22:35:23
373.   underdog
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Dodgers will compete, and hard, tomorrow. I won't predict they'll win, mind you, but they will "compete." They've shown heart all through the playoffs. Things also worked out for them in the Cubs series that haven't worked out as consistently in this one. That's...

a wrap. Night.

2008-10-14 22:35:46
374.   superbas
372 agreed. i've seen plenty of hustle and heart from kemp martin etc. i want them to continue that tomorrow. listening on the radio today a reporter was saying the clubhouse looked demoralized after the loss and that "they're done". i hope that's not the case and it was just the after-effect of a really tough loss.
2008-10-14 22:40:50
375.   KG16
374 - this is where the effect of the regular season comes in. In hockey or basketball, with an 82 game schedule, playing every couple of days, you can dwell on a loss and sink into a funk. baseball, with 162 games and playing every day doesn't allow that. you have to have a short memory, as they say. i suspect the dodgers have a short memory and like underdog said in 373 they will compete tomorrow. the outcome is left to the baseball gods - i hope someone remembered to sacrifice a giants hat today.
2008-10-14 22:42:15
376.   bhsportsguy
374 They can't look any worse than they did when they just lost their 8th straight game, down 4.5 games and facing Dan Haren (and Brandon Webb).

Who won that game, the arm of Chad Billingsley and the bat of Manny Ramirez.

2008-10-14 22:45:17
377.   Andrew Shimmin
After a long period of careful consideration, I've decided that I wish the Dodgers had won yesterday. If they had, the series would be tied at two, and I'd feel better about their chances, going forward.
2008-10-14 23:02:54
378.   underdog
374 I think it's probably unfair of reporters to make assumptions on how done they are or be too critical/analytical of their state of being after what was undeniably an extremely tough loss. Of course they look down. Should they be popping open champagne bottles? That was hard enough for us to take; for the players I'm sure it was an awful feeling at that moment. Having a day off today is extremely important because it at least gives them time to get their heads back on straight. Manny has been through this before. So have some of the other guys. I don't think they're "done" in as far as how they will play tomorrow. Again, they may lose. But the reporters are probably overanalyzing their mood right at that moment in time.
2008-10-14 23:38:13
379.   Bob Timmermann
I am perturbed that a story on security at Dodger Stadium requires a quote from Robert Wuhl:

2008-10-14 23:54:55
380.   Eric Stephen
I was a little perturbed at lunch today because I heard Steve Phillips say people "in an around Los Angeles" were disappointed in Russell Martin, because of his play (the sin of leaving people on base) and his attitude (no examples given).

Phillips also made the point that Park's wild pitch "had to be blocked" and it was a horrible play for Martin not to have blocked it. I haven't seen a replay of this; I'm merely reporting.

The verdict: don't listen to Steve Phillips

The good news: I will be watching game 1 of the 3 game winning streak at the Claim Jumper in Carlsbad, where the club is undefeated* as I watch games there.

*The only game I have seen there was Game 1 in Chicago.

2008-10-15 00:04:30
381.   Eric Stephen
I wonder if it is possible to mention Robert Wuhl without mentioning Arli$$. I bet he made that a condition of the interview!
2008-10-15 00:06:50
382.   Eric Stephen
I meant to add Phillips intimated that people in the organization were upset with Martin, which I find highly doubtful.

But enough about Phillips.

2008-10-15 00:07:45
383.   Eric Stephen
By the way, it is now officially the 20th anniversary of, well you know.

I hope #23 throws out the first pitch tonight.

2008-10-15 00:48:52
384.   dzzrtRatt
It's really not about the Dodgers, who have played wonderfully the past few months and with a few breaks could be up 3-1 in this series.

It's about the fans. I was in the crowd for last Saturday's clincher against the Cubs and the fans expectations and emotions were through the roof. It was great to see and hear great hopes redeemed.

I wasn't at the game Monday, but I know lots of people who were. Whatever rational or irrational gloss you want to put on it, the fans felt like they got kicked in the stomach. It seemed they had it in hand... and... argh!

I don't think the fans are mad so much as deeply disappointed. They've fallen in love with this team and they don't want the affair to end, especially with the many potential departures hanging over the season's end.

But the affair has at least one more tryste, Wednesday night. So I expect the fans will be just as high as they were Monday and last Saturday, hoping hoping hoping, counting out the at-bats until their favorites come up. Not demanding, just rooting for the bums. If the Dodgers lose, I anticipate sadness, not anger, followed by increased attention to the off-season. And if they win Wednesday -- well it's like a new life.

2008-10-15 00:50:52
385.   LoneStar7
383 I really hope so as well...I also hope the fans are loud and in full force giving the team every ounce of extra energy and confidence they can, I'm banking on the fact that most of hollywood and the bandwagon jumpers will have given up hope and a good raucous crowd will be out supporting the boys.

anyway all we can do is take it one game at at time, and if tomorrow is the last, so be it, but lets not go down without a fight!

2008-10-15 00:56:58
386.   ibleedbloo
If anyone is interested, I have a pair of tickets for todays game in Infield Reserved, aisle 10, row J, seats 1 & 2. $120 for the pair (which is under face value).

If interested, please email amurvine at hotmail dot com.

2008-10-15 01:02:14
387.   Bob Timmermann
Jason Varitek would have saved the day.

All of the Dodgers problem can be solved by Jason Varitek.

I know it would make a lot of Boston's problems go away.

2008-10-15 01:09:04
388.   Jacob Burch
Well, I am going! And I kept score throughout the entire brutalizing loss Monday. I felt proud.

I'm going tomorrow with an almost exhibition-like feeling like I went to the Red Sox game with. It'll be fun to see these group one last time, to keep score, have a Dodger Dog, and if the team decides to raise my hopes one last time, more the better!

It's been a fun year, one of which I started to really post on this wonderful community, and had Bob nearly single handily, indirectly get me into scoring and excitement over CI. I could almost not ask for more. Seven more wins is about all that's left.

2008-10-15 04:44:42
389.   Hollywood Joe
I am in Philadelphia at this very moment and I hate the stink of this place.

Monday night was a heartbreaker and the worst loss I have ever had the pleasure of enduring in person.

I have read every post on my train ride through hell this morning (Manhattan to Lancaster via Philly) and really have a single point to make

All season long we have jointly wished for what was possible, not probable, but simply possible, and for all of our pleasure it has turned out largely good. Today is a day to rejoice that we are one of the 4 teams, well into autumn, that can still dream of what is possible and that is what I will be doing at 8:22PM local time.

I say three in a row starting today, while not probable by any stretch of the imagination, is certainly much more possible than the 8 in a row we ran off after losing the previous 8... and after all what does a little hope cost?

Go Dodgers


2008-10-15 06:05:02
390.   Bob Hendley
Good morning DTers! Life is good, we have Dodger baseball.
2008-10-15 06:19:51
391.   Dodger Dawg
I'm still thinking about the last game as I'm sure many of you are. I've come to the conclusion that If Lowe is Torre's number 1 guy he should have been left in the game until he showed he was tiring. Some might say he was pitching on 3 days rest, but if he can't go 7 innings or more he shouldn't have started at all. I doubt that if Hamels is pitching well that Manuel takes him out after 5. The other thing is that the Dodgers only have 3 reliable starters. I would have felt more comfortable with Stults on the roster than Maddux. Also how different would this series be if we had drafted Lincecum instead of Kershaw?
2008-10-15 06:29:52
392.   Bob Hendley
391 - Don't want to continue replaying the last game, but... It seemed to me that Lowe had adjusted to the ump's strike zone, to the point that he didn't even raise an eyebrow on the low called third strike during his PA. Tough situation for Clayton to come into with that particular ump. Sorry that Joe didn't appreciate that aspect.

It was pretty clear that all Joe was going to use were the three starters, unless the series had unfolded with us going up 3-1.

A lot of things would have been different in that situation.

2008-10-15 06:34:57
393.   Jon Weisman
2008-10-15 06:41:58
394.   ToyCannon
You weren't disappointed in Martin? During the winter we felt he was going to be the best catcher in the NL this season. He didn't come close to meeting that expectation either offensively or defensively unless your expectation was for a very average player.

We are in this position because of Manny and our pitching. Every young player other then Ethier did not come close to meeting my expectations and I don't think they were unreasonably high.

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