Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Google Search
Dodger Thoughts

02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Farewell, Condolences and Many Happy Returns
2008-10-15 21:55
by Jon Weisman

In a series in which not enough went right, on a night when almost nothing did, I still found myself nursing hope in the ninth inning.

And then once again, a fly ball from the Dodgers went all the way to the wall without going over. And that told the story.

That's the season. My despair came Monday. Tonight, I'm inclined to say that it was a good ride while it lasted. Not all of it, certainly. I could live without some of the frustration. But I'll have good memories. Most of them, of course, will be those that I shared with you. Thanks again - in my mind, you folks are a World Champion baseball community.

* * *

I had planned on saving this for Thursday, but I know people are already eager or anxious to talk about 2009. So here's a rough 2009 payroll worksheet, with my usual caveat that most figures are estimates (some are wild estimates) but will be updated as information comes in. Feel free to leave any corrections in the comments, and I'll update sometime Thursday.

This is not a prediction of the 2009 Opening Day roster. Again, it's just a worksheet, based on what the roster could look like if next season started tomorrow:

*Rough salary estimate

Starting Pitchers (5)
$10,000,000 Hiroki Kuroda
$9,250,000 Brad Penny
*$475,000 Chad Billingsley
*$415,000 Clayton Kershaw
*$400,000 James McDonald
*Total: $20,540,000
Note: Team can buy out Penny's 2009 option for $2,500,000

Bullpen (7)
*$2,500,000 Takashi Saito
*$1,300,000 Scott Proctor
*$750,000 Jonathan Broxton
*$425,000 Hong-Chih Kuo
*$420,000 Cory Wade
*$410,000 Ramon Troncoso
*$400,000 Scott Elbert
Total: $6,205,000

Also on 40-man roster:
Mario Alvarez
Yhency Brazoban
Greg Miller
Justin Orenduff
Eric Stults

Starting Lineup (8)
$17,100,000 Andruw Jones
*$700,000 Russell Martin
*$625,000 Andre Ethier
*$600,000 Matt Kemp
*$600,000 James Loney
*$410,000 Blake DeWitt
*$400,000 Tony Abreu
*$400,000 Chin-Lung Hu
Total: $20,835,000

Bench (5)
$10,000,000 Juan Pierre
$1,200,000 Pablo Ozuna
*$600,000 Jason Repko
*$410,000 Delwyn Young
*$400,000 Danny Ardoin
Total: $12,610,000
Note: Team can buy out Ozuna's 2009 option for $200,000

Also on 40-man roster:
A.J. Ellis
Lucas May
Xavier Paul

Disabled List
$12,000,000 Jason Schmidt

Also Paying ...
$50,000 Gary Bennett (buyout of $900,000 option)
Note: Kansas City is responsible for $500,000 buyout of Angel Berroa's $5,500,000 option for 2009.

Working total: *$72,240,000

It seems possible that the Dodgers might have in the neighborhood of $50 million to help improve this collection of players. Top issues:

  • The outfield spot that would be held by Jones and Pierre.
  • The DeWitt-Hu-Abreu (or if you prefer, Ivan DeJesus, Jr.) infield next to Loney.
  • The pitching slot held by Penny.

    Might the Dodgers add a $10 million player, a $15 million player and a $25 million player in terms of 2009 salary? We'll see ...

  • Comments (364)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2008-10-15 22:00:08
    1.   Tripon
    Dodgers didn't pick up Ozuna on waivers did they? I thought they picked up Ozuna after he cleared them.
    2008-10-15 22:00:39
    2.   dodgerkramer1
    As I look ahead to 2009, I came up with a list of offseason "gifts" I would present to various Dodger players:

    To Chad Billingsley, I would give a short memory. Bills is our best starting pitcher, one of the best in the NL, and he just needs to forget about the two stinkers he produced in the NLCS and focus on the many, many good outings he gave us throughout the season.

    I would give Jon Broxton a better secondary pitch, and a fitness guru. Brox throws nearly 100 mph, but his slider is a very inconsistent pitch with not much movement. The 300-pounder needs to get in better shape in order to improve his mechanics. That will allow him to have better command — with his fastball, he should throw nothing but strikes.

    I would give Hong-Chih Kuo a healthy offseason and a healthy 2009. He's quite possibly my favorite Dodger. He's the biggest surprise of the season and one of the game's most overpowering relief pitchers, period. May his arm stay in one piece.

    James Loney will receive brand-new weight equipment and supplements. Thirteen homers in 595 at-bats just ain't gonna cut it. He can hit 30, and this team needs that from him.

    Matt Kemp: I'd give him a higher "Baseball IQ," and more quality at-bats. Still too many baserunning mistakes, and he struck out WAY too much for a guy with only 18 homers. His outfield play was a nice, nice surprise, though. He's gonna be a great player — let's just hope he figures it out sooner rather than later.

    Andre Ethier: This is a tough one. He had the best season of any Dodger youngster, and I can't put my finger on what he needs most. Probably just a good hitter batting behind him in the lineup.

    Russell Martin receives a better backup catcher. Martin should catch no more than 140 games next season.

    Cory Wade/James McDonald: A fair chance to earn spots in the Dodger starting rotation. Unless Wade is absolutely needed in the bullpen.

    Blake DeWitt: An everyday spot in the lineup, either at third base or second base. How can you not like this guy?

    Rafael Furcal: A contract of some kind with L.A. I don't think we have a choice but to gamble that his back will be healthy.

    Jeff Kent/Nomar: Happy retirements.

    Juan Pierre/Casey Blake: A team that's willing to let them play every day. It CAN'T be the Dodgers.

    Ned Colletti: The Dodgers GM needs to get a power bat. Maybe that's Manny. Maybe it's Andruw Jones. Maybe it's someone else. Colletti also needs a front-line starting pitcher or two. I realize that power bats and good starting pitchers don't grow on trees.

    2008-10-15 22:05:37
    3.   kinbote
    Oh goodie. Something to print out at work tomorrow and put on the clipboard under the agenda. [Don't tell!] You're the man, Jon.
    2008-10-15 22:09:39
    4.   bigcpa
    The oracle that is Steve Phillips thinks the Dodgers are the frontrunners for CC and cites his new house in Orange County. I wonder whether a quick Manny signing would help recruit CC or whether a CC signing would help resign Manny. Either way it's a great window of opportunity to line up two elite players with a core of cheap talent. I would even go young and defense-first at SS if we can pull off the CC/Manny exacta.
    2008-10-15 22:21:23
    5.   JRSarno
    "Top issues"

    The attempt to resign Manny Ramirez? I'm curious: by this somewhat conspicuous absence, is the implication that it's not a "top issue" because it's outside the realm of fiscal probability?

    2008-10-15 22:23:32
    6.   JRSarno
    As upsetting as this situation is, McDonald was really a huge positive in this whole series!
    2008-10-15 22:24:20
    7.   Lexinthedena
    Thanks Jon for a great 2008. This was a fun season, and it's nice that the Dodgers are once again relevant.

    For PR, and baseball reasons, Manny has to be re-signed unless a team like the Yanks goes overboard.

    This will be a very fun off season, and I can't wait to follow the hot stove with the DT community.

    2008-10-15 22:25:08
    8.   AshburnAlley
    As a Phillies fan, and board newbie, I want to congratulate the Dodgers on a great season and a well-played series. Believe me, I did not expect a 5 game series, the Phillies got some breaks and excellent pitching. And Manny, well, he earned his money. Cheers!
    2008-10-15 22:28:20
    9.   JRSarno
    Curious what people think is needed "most" to improve us for next season, if it's even possible to say that one is more necessary than the other: more offensive pop, or a stronger rotation?
    2008-10-15 22:29:07
    10.   bhsportsguy
    8 Thanks, good luck to you, for the most part, my interactions with Philly fans at the Stadium was good natured and fun.
    2008-10-15 22:30:04
    11.   trainwreck
    Who did not see the Reeves Nelson football injury coming?
    2008-10-15 22:32:30
    12.   trainwreck
    Pop for sure. We already got 4 of our starters (Bills, Kuroda, Kershaw, McDonald). We just need to sign or trade for one more starter, plus we have some depth with Stults, Elbert, and Schmidt.

    We have a whole at third that we really have no answer to (I prefer DeWitt at second). We have an hole in the outfield, because I am not counting on Jones or Pierre. We at least have a few options at short.

    2008-10-15 22:37:22
    13.   DBrim
    I think Furcal may have lowered his asking price tonight. He might end up being a good deal, but he's not the long-term solution we need and he's injury-prone.

    If it means we can get Sabathia, I'd rather sign Adam Dunn than Manny.

    2008-10-15 22:38:04
    14.   JRSarno
    5 - My bad, Jon. I get so excited by bullet points, I neglected the last sentence... it'll be interesting where McCourt goes. With all the talk of "restoring" a championship atmosphere to Los Angeles, he'd be hard-pressed to not do his part and make a good faith attempt at resigning Manny. But that interview on FSN after the game with Manny and McCourt respectively seemed to set the stage rather predictably. Manny was very non-committal, "I'm just gonna go home, we'll see what happens..." -- his usual "whatever" self. Whereas McCourt indicated that it "takes two to tango." I can see that if McCourt fails to resign Manny, he'll be attributing that failure to Manny's fickle disposition (oh, and Scott Boras)...
    2008-10-15 22:39:38
    15.   Wen
    The ending isn't the best, but it's been a great season. It was fun following the ups and downs of the Dodgers here with everyone (although I hardly ever post). Thanks to Jon for the site.
    2008-10-15 22:50:39
    16.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
    Congrats, Phillies. This was no fluke, as you're the better team.
    As for my Dodgers, I am unsure as to how I feel about their elimination. More accurately, I am unsure why I do not feel as a long-time fan should.
    Looking at the whole season, I have to say there was an element of unreality to it.
    For 3-1/2 months, watching this team was agony on a nightly basis. The Dodgers weren't bad enough to be counted out from contention in an awful division, but not good enough to overcome the slightly less-worse D-backs. For weeks on end, it seemed, LA was about four games out and going nowhere.
    A mid-July series win at Arizona pulled the Dodgers into a tie and put a charge into my hopes, yet the team seemed ready to spit the bit at any moment.
    Then came the Manny trade. What nobody will remember is that LA lost 15 of its first 26 games with him in the lineup. Yes, he was smacking the crap out of the ball and single-handedly had dragged the team back into the national media's spotlight but... so? We still sucked.
    Now, it's unlikely to have a team make a stretch-drive push without another club making a stretch-drive fade. And, living in Phoenix, I watched both unfold simultaneously - Snakes on TV, Dodgers on the computer. From Aug. 29 until the afternoon of Sept. 25, there was a nine-game swing in the standings. LA went 18-5 while AZ stumbled to a 10-15 record.
    And that was the unreal part, which continued into the NLDS. My team turned into world-beaters overnight, but with the same players (save for Manny and Blake) that had done nothing but play mediocre ball for the better part of a season. When Furcal came back for the playoffs, that cemented within me a feeling of Who are these guys?
    That's why I couldn't celebrate too much when they advanced in the playoffs for the first time in 20 years. And that's why I can't feel more than a slight sense of disappointment tonight. This team became unfamiliar and foreign just when my bond should've grown strongest. I've been following baseball since 1985, and I've never experienced anything like it.
    2008-10-15 22:51:43
    17.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
    (I wrote the above for my blog, so that's why I'm explaining details you already know.)
    2008-10-15 23:02:16
    18.   waterboy100
    0 2
    great posts thanks for the reading.

    to all you guys i want to say that this has been a great year and since it is my first year with you guys i hope that there is some sort of offseason activity on the blog.

    secondl, to jon thanks for all the posts and the time taken out what seems to be a busy life to make a very interesting corner of the internet for us dodger fans.

    2008-10-15 23:02:47
    19.   Linkmeister
    Bah. Out with a whimper, not with a bang.

    Oh well.

    I feel sorry for Billingsley, for Furcal (what a night! Willie Davis, please call the poor guy!), for Wade and Broxton for the awfulness of the 8th inning the other night, for Blake, who probably will see fly balls landing just short of the wall in Victorino's glove in his sleep, and for DeWitt (how many DPs did he hit into in this series?).

    The composite box will be interesting to look at. The absolute ineptitude of the cleanup position, which McCarver/Buck kept pointing out, was dreadful to behold.

    Next year we'll have about 18 of these guys back, I imagine. I hope it's the right 18.

    2008-10-15 23:05:33
    20.   silverwidow
    Arbitration eligibles:

    Martin (Super Two) ~$5 million
    Ethier (Super Two) ~$3 million
    Broxton ~$2 million

    That's $10 million less to work with.

    2008-10-15 23:07:12
    21.   68elcamino427
    Time to begin dusting off the old hot stove already?

    Congrats to the Phillies - they played great.

    As for the future ... stay focused ... Martin Loney Kemp

    2008-10-15 23:09:22
    22.   thinkblue88
    Thank you Dodgers.
    It was the most fun I've ever had as a Dodger fan. And to Jon and everyone else here at DT, thanks for a great season.
    2008-10-15 23:09:33
    23.   waterboy100
    18 eh..i forgot to say: go rays go.
    2008-10-15 23:12:04
    24.   Dark Horse
    13-The gap between Manny and Dunn is just huge. Dunn is nowhere near as good, in any capacity.

    This team is severely challenged, offensively. They could sign Dunn, or Pat Burrell--they could sign Manny--and still have significant holes. Their rotation, likewise (assuming Lowe's departure). Their bullpen is fragile physically (Kuo, Elbert, Saito (?)), and perhaps mentally. I haven't been this pessimistic about the team in a good while. I fear a few water-treading signings (Furcal, Blake or some equivalent) and offensive decline. That's...very poor. If I were truthful, I'd want an upgrade at first, third, catcher perhaps (heretical I know, but Martin lacks power like the rest of our club), the retention of Manny AND a Sabathia. Hey, maybe we'll sign those two AND Texiera, but I sort of doubt it.

    Ned's bungling comes home to roost at last.

    2008-10-15 23:15:49
    25.   bhsportsguy
    24 Ned's bungling has put the Dodgers in the post-season twice in his first three years.

    Yes, you can point out the faults but to think the team got there in spite of him is not fair.

    2008-10-15 23:16:39
    26.   LOB
    Thanks, Dodgers, for a great - if weird - season. I loved every nail-biting minute of it.

    And special thanks to Jon, this amazing site, and all the DT posters. I have learned so much about the finer points of baseball here, and your posts have really expanded my understanding and enjoyment of the game.

    I made it last year to the gathering (where McCourt held, errr, court) but missed the whiffle ball picnic this year. I hope to see and actually dare speak to some of you guys next year.

    I especially delighted in seeing the young core guys get to play this year and will never forget Martin and Kemp leaping into the stands after we swept the Cubs.

    Can't wait to see what happens next.

    2008-10-15 23:16:45
    27.   DBrim
    24 - It may be huge now, but what about when Manny isn't playing for a contract. I'm still worried about him later, especially since our ownership is definitely dysfunctional at time.

    I think Loney is an outstanding first baseman and I would be truly upset if we sign Texiera. He kicked butt this series, too, and in my mind, he should have been hitting clean-up. Martin doesn't have enough power to play third base. He's a decent defensive catcher, and will show offensive improvement if Torre learns to sit him once a week.

    2008-10-15 23:18:08
    28.   Rob M
    24 You're a little over the top with the gloom. The rotation and bullpen are strengths and will remain so. Are there flaws in the pitching staff? Of course? Are they greater than that of other good staffs? I don't think so.

    The glaring problem is the need for more power in the lineup. That might come from a combination of Manny, a 3rd baseman to be named and improvements from Loney, Kemp, Martin and Ethier. There is a lot of variability there - after Manny there isn't really another great option, save for Teixiera (would he play LF?) After wathing Manny go Bondsian the last few months, it'll be hard to settle for less.

    2008-10-15 23:19:18
    29.   still bevens
    I still say had we kept LaRoche we would still have a big question mark at third. The kid was horrible this year and I say this as a big LaRoche backer earlier in the season.
    2008-10-15 23:21:27
    30.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
    Ned is coming back, sayeth the Times.

    Ned Colletti will return as the Dodgers' general manager next season, club owner Frank McCourt said Wednesday.
    McCourt had declined to discuss the issue all season, even after the Dodgers clinched the National League West championship. However, after the Dodgers lost in the National League Championship Series, McCourt said Colletti would be back.

    2008-10-15 23:22:46
    31.   bablue
    Thanks so much Jon for a great season!!! Hopefully this offseason will be great as well!

    Please sign either Manny or CC and I'll feel okay at least, regardless of what we do otherwise. (Both would be nice too.) ;-)

    2008-10-15 23:25:04
    32.   DBrim
    30 - They said that about Grady Little last year, too.
    2008-10-15 23:29:06
    33.   silverwidow
    30 I hope that is just a smokescreen.

    DePo got the same treatment before he was canned around Halloween.

    2008-10-15 23:34:12
    34.   CanuckDodger
    32 -- But Grady Little quit, he wasn't fired. And even if you believe that official story is a lie, and that Little was pushed out as soon as Torre became an option, there is no "star GM" comparable to Torre who will be available to push out Colletti.
    2008-10-15 23:36:55
    35.   LogikReader
    Listen to ESPN Radio right now.

    I forever hate ESPN.

    (I know... "What took you so long?")

    2008-10-15 23:38:19
    36.   DBrim
    34 - We have two that can do a better job within our own organization.
    2008-10-15 23:38:50
    37.   bhsportsguy
    33 There are a lot of differences between 2005 and 2008.

    1. Dodgers are not replacing their manager.
    2. Dodgers finished their most successful season, in terms of advancing in the playoffs in 20 years and did it by defeating the team with the best record in the NL.
    3. With this run, the media will not be writing negative stories about GM.

    2008-10-15 23:40:31
    38.   bhsportsguy
    36 There is no evidence that is true, plus to some extent, any moves ,though final say is with Ned (and McCourt), were made with input from Kim Ng and Logan White.
    2008-10-15 23:40:41
    39.   CanuckDodger
    33 -- DePo was coming off a 71-win season. Colletti is coming off the best season a Dodger team has had in TWENTY years.

    Please, let's just stop with the denial

    2008-10-15 23:41:18
    40.   Eric Stephen
    Amy K. Nelson (or is it AmyP Nelson?) is on ESPN Radio spewing her lies about Billingsley throwing Martin under the bus regarding pitch selection. This, despite the fact that Dylan Hernandez, someone who covered the team all year, covered the same postgame last week and had a completely different view.

    I can't wait until the DT picnic 2009 just to hear Molly vent, unshackled by the bonds of the internet.

    2008-10-15 23:41:47
    41.   LogikReader
    Between you and me, I want the Phillies to get swept. They are getting way too much credit this week, and the Rays aren't getting enough credit.

    The Phillies have one good starting pitcher. One! Their bullpen isn't going to be enough to get them through games. Their 7-9 hitters aren't hitting .400 against the Rays. The Rays front line starters are terrific. The Rays have a more balanced lineup that can put runs up in multiple innings, not just one big inning.

    It's early to do predictions, but I have to think it's Rays in 5 (or 4).

    2008-10-15 23:42:53
    42.   LogikReader

    Oh that's right! This is the same person we speak of isn't it?

    and yea, see 35

    2008-10-15 23:43:41
    43.   LogikReader
    Is Molly really going to the DT picnic? And Jon? and Bob? and Eric(s)? I am so there!
    2008-10-15 23:47:29
    44.   Eric Stephen
    Yeah, I didn't see your 35 as I was posting in a blind rage. I actually normally like the All Night guy (Jason Smith) but Amy Nelson is on my list. I need to figure out a creative device to display the people I hate.
    2008-10-15 23:48:28
    45.   bhsportsguy
    40 I'm listening to NPR archives now, a wonderful series on great composers.

    Amazingly, I did not see Billingsley pitch at all this postseason. So I have no frame of reference of what happened.

    It is certainly possible for two people to be at the same event and have two entirely different recollections about it.

    But, since Billingsley has probably thrown more pitches to Martin than any other person in his life, I have hard time believing that he would "throw him under the bus."

    2008-10-15 23:51:10
    46.   silverwidow
    39 Yes, I am in denial. Complete denial that McCourt is satisfied enough with Ned's fiscally irresponsible performance as GM to let him continue another year with two viable replacements available (Ng & White).

    I will gladly admit to being wrong it two weeks if he's still GM.

    2008-10-16 00:01:35
    47.   LOB

    I was feeling pretty okay about things. Then I decided to read Mike's Baseball Rants. Now I'm upset.

    I don't think I'll make that mistake again. He makes me hate the Phillies, if he's any example of their fans. Yuck.

    I'm more grateful than ever to Jon.

    I'm going to bed.

    2008-10-16 00:03:54
    48.   Bob Timmermann
    RIP, Edie Adams.

    Say hi to Ernie for all of us.

    2008-10-16 00:05:49
    49.   bhsportsguy
    46 What you (and others) see as being "fiscally irresponsible" is probably what most owners see as the cost of doing business in professional sports.

    Though it could appear that GMs are let go when they sign bad deals or make bad trades, in the end, its about wins and losses.

    Now, wins and losses are a difficult statistic to quantify, even methods using run differential may not accurately predict what is going to happen.

    But Ned got just enough to make his 4th year. Now, I have said for a few months now, either fire Ned or extend him, don't let him be a lame duck GM. Right now, it looks like he will be in the same position as Brian Cashman was this year. We'll see if he shares Cashman's fate at the end of 2009.

    2008-10-16 00:07:05
    50.   LogikReader

    I'm with you on that, Eric. I'm a big fan of Jason Smith... ah well, I'll just let this blow over. He's a Mets fan too, so what do you expect?

    His bit on Pacman Jones yesterday was hilarious...

    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2008-10-16 00:09:24
    51.   Linkmeister
    I'm a National League guy, but not this year. It doesn't have anything to do with the Phillies, though; the Rays are just too good a story. Worst to first! 10 years of last-place finishes! Compelling young players! Guys who've been on this previously-awful team forever now find themselves winning!

    Besides, they're not the Red Sox, of whom I'm heartily sick. Just four years after their ascendancy they've become the Yankees in terms of arrogance and fan obnoxiousness.

    2008-10-16 00:12:28
    52.   bhsportsguy
    50 I make it a rule to stay away from sportstalk after my team loses for at least a day, sometimes more.

    I'll probably listen to music and NPR at least until the Lakers dominate the LA sports scene once again.

    2008-10-16 00:13:09
    53.   Eric Stephen
    I'm rooting for Xeifrank to win his 150-1 wager.
    2008-10-16 00:13:48
    54.   trainwreck
    Seriously! I almost want to guarantee I will be at next DT Day just to hear Molly go off.
    2008-10-16 00:14:17
    55.   Eric Stephen
    until the Lakers dominate the LA sports scene once again

    Maybe during the weekdays until December. The weekends belong to a team that will win me a Manny jersey shirt. :)

    2008-10-16 00:14:21
    56.   trainwreck
    Holiday predicting National Championships, I love it!
    2008-10-16 00:15:07
    57.   trainwreck
    BTW, I am still going to grow my hair out until at least the end of the month.
    2008-10-16 00:16:03
    58.   Eric Stephen
    We're probably building this up way too much.

    For instance, I thought Bob Timmermann was 7 feet tall and could shoot fireballs out of his arse. I was sorely disappointed.

    2008-10-16 00:16:37
    59.   Bob Timmermann
    I predict that the team Eric is talking about will finish its season with back to back wins...

    In Pasadena.

    2008-10-16 00:17:21
    60.   Eric Stephen
    Truth be told, I actually shaved the playoff beard last night. I decided the Dodgers needed to go into "all business" mode, plus 7 weeks of growth was getting kind of unruly.

    I accept full blame for tonight's loss.

    2008-10-16 00:18:03
    61.   Eric Stephen
    I would be absolutely pleased with that. But I really want that Manny t-shirt!
    2008-10-16 00:26:16
    62.   bhsportsguy
    61 I wonder if I need to buy it now or should I hope there will be a reason for them to stock them in December.
    2008-10-16 00:28:40
    63.   Eric Stephen
    There were only two instances (prior to the postseason) of four straight Billingsley/Lowe starts without a win for the Dodgers this season:

    May 23-31: Cards-@Cubs-@Cubs-@Mets
    July 31-Aug 10: Ari-@Stl-@Stl-@SF

    2008-10-16 00:29:15
    64.   Eric Stephen
    Hold off. Let's reserve the right to name the shirt (should Manny not sign).
    2008-10-16 00:31:45
    65.   trainwreck
    You only think that because Amy Nelson is dead to you.
    2008-10-16 00:35:33
    66.   trainwreck
    I imagine Manny will be in NY whether it is Yanks or Mets. We will not win a bidding war with them.

    I can totally see Hank Steinbrenner taking Manny out of spite. Plus, he is good.

    2008-10-16 00:46:07
    67.   stubbs
    I agree the Yankees benefit in so many ways by bringing Manny home. I think he is ours to lose if not for Hank.

    Are those "super two" figures accurate? Do all 3 of them qualify?

    2008-10-16 00:59:42
    68.   trainwreck
    Billy Murray looks so old it depresses me.
    2008-10-16 01:03:49
    69.   trainwreck
    Damn, Billy Murray can belt it out.
    2008-10-16 01:55:50
    70.   Bob Timmermann
    This was in the AP story:
    Furcal's double error was the highlight — rather lowlight — of the Dodgers' misfortunes. He misplayed Pat Burrell's grounder in the hole, then kicked it before throwing the ball way over catcher Russell Martin as Maddux failed to back up the play.

    From looking at the replay, Maddux was heading over to a spot between home and third which is where I assume the pitcher should be backing up on such a play. However, Furcal's throw home went to the first base side of home and then careened around the screen and toward the first base dugout.

    Also, the play happened very quickly so it would have been hard for Maddux to be in the right place. Because the ball was not in the "right" place.

    2008-10-16 02:09:55
    71.   Connector
    A big thanks to Jon and to all the DT posters. I am a once-in-a-blue-moon commentor but I read Jon's posts everyday, and everyone's posts after big games, such as the D-back and NLDS series' wins.

    2008 was a great year for the Dodgers. The boys excelled despite injuries to key players and the changing-of-the-guard transition from veteran to young guys.
    The Dodgers loss in the NLCS, while frustrating, is an incredible learning experience which the team can draw on for lessons and inspiration in 2009.

    See you then!

    2008-10-16 03:51:23
    72.   ChemicalMachine
    Here's to another beautiful, frustrating, enchanting and bewildering season of baseball. I'd be lying to say I wasn't gutted by these series losses, but that pain will eventually fade and I'll take comfort in the fact that I'll be left with quite a few sweet (and bittersweet) Dodger memories from this year. A couple of things that'll stand out -

    * Racing from Ventura County to a game and getting to my seat just in time to see Manny hit his first home run in Dodger Blue.
    * Watching Clayton pitch his first game with the Dodgers.
    * Getting a horrible sunburn watching the first Dodger Spring Training games in Arizona and drinking tequila with my brother after those games while spending hours talking about the upcoming season.
    * Seeing Stults pitch that shutout against the ChiSox while sitting in the midst of rabid ChiSox fans at the Ravine.
    * Having to buy a dozen fellow Dodger fans a round at my local in Ojai after Juan hit that homerun... I've never grinned so much about losing a bet.
    * Vin's call of that clinching game against the Cubbies.

    There are dozens of other things I'll remember. As much as the end of this season hurts, the Dodgers gave me so much this year to combat all the little (and big) griefs life deals out. Here's to an off-season of wondering and debating and hoping. 2009 is a blank slate in which anything at all can happen. I cannot wait.

    2008-10-16 05:47:41
    73.   old dodger fan
    The sun did come up this morning.
    2008-10-16 05:54:33
    74.   D4P
    Andruw will make roughly $49,000 today.
    2008-10-16 05:56:15
    75.   old dodger fan
    74 Manny's unemployed.
    2008-10-16 05:57:15
    76.   D4P
    Is there no justice*?

    *Other than David

    2008-10-16 06:13:29
    77.   old dodger fan
    At least in baseball there is justice.

    You play the game and somebody wins and somebody loses based on how many runs you score. We can argue about who was better or who got the "breaks" but the team with the most runs wins.

    Expanding the justice topic beyond sports does not work so well and I'm bordering on a Rule 5 violation so I'll let it go at that.

    2008-10-16 06:23:59
    78.   East Coast Dodger
    Jon, I want to add to the chorus of praise for your help in my enjoyment of this season. I can't wait for next year! My interest in, and knowledge of, the Dodgers has increased because of this site! Thanks!
    2008-10-16 06:26:37
    79.   East Coast Dodger
    Question for those who know: Is Blake Dewitt even an average 2B offensively and defensively? The defense may be more subjective. I have just started using Baseball Reference, so I am still bumbling my way around there. But how does DeWitt's offensive performance stack up against the average 2B? It is my subjective sense that he will be below average if he repeats this year's performance.
    2008-10-16 06:37:18
    80.   Hollywood Joe
    When I quickly looked at the post title I saw "Manny Happy Returns"...what do you think a shrink would say about that?

    I loved Manny and the trade from day one, but I dont see how we sign him unless the market for him somehow crashes. I guess that is possible, I am having a hard to finding a team right now that he is a good fit for and can afford him...

    2008-10-16 06:41:10
    81.   D4P
    I am having a hard to finding a team right now that he is a good fit for and can afford him


    2008-10-16 07:05:50
    82.   Sushirabbit
    I can see Manny not wanting to go back to the east coast. Of course, he'll have to pull an A-rod on Boras. Lowe on the other hand probably would like to return to that side of the baseball world.
    2008-10-16 07:08:08
    83.   Disabled List
    Couple of notes:

    - I also shaved my playoff beard last night. It wasn't working for the first four games of the series, so I just came to grips with the fact that the Dodgers' play has nothing to do with my facial hair growth, strange as that sounds.

    - The Dodgers caught all the breaks in the Cubs series, and got absolutely none of them in the Phillies series.

    - Billingsley has to be earning more that $475K next season, right? This was his 3rd year.

    - The Dodger infield next year is really going to suck. And there really is no way the Dodgers can sign both Manny and CC.

    - When the Manny trade went down, some of us feared that it would lead to a playoff run that would ultimately fall short, would leave us without Manny and LaRoche in 2009, and would allow Ned Colletti to save his job. Looks like that's exactly what's gonna happen.

    - I simply can't root for another undeserving World Series championship for a team from the state of Florida. The Red Sox, of course, go without saying. Go Phillies!

    2008-10-16 07:09:06
    84.   Ken Noe
    Kurkjian thinks its Mets or Dodgers, but either way Manny gets less than he wants. He adds that the real question is how much McCourt actually can afford.
    2008-10-16 07:11:55
    85.   Ken Noe
    By the way, I'm more down about Ned's return than the actual loss. But at least there's no talk yet of an extension.

    Plus this from Plaschke: keep the kids together, build next season around Ethier, Matt Kemp, Russell Martin, Jonathan Broxton and, yes, Billingsley and DeWitt. I know, I never thought I'd say that, I'm the last one in town to see the light, but at times it has been delightfully blinding. The scars of this series will disappear. Their incredible growth during the second half of this season will not

    2008-10-16 07:12:41
    86.   D4P
    When the Manny trade went down, some of us feared that it would lead to a playoff run that would ultimately fall short, would leave us without Manny and LaRoche in 2009, and would allow Ned Colletti to save his job. Looks like that's exactly what's gonna happen

    Ned's devious scheme worked to perfection. He succeeded well enough to keep his job, but not so well that his allegiance to the Giants was seriously damaged. Plus, his status as Sabean's mole is intact. They all must be very happy.

    But as far as LaRoche goes, I think a fork can be stuck in him.

    2008-10-16 07:22:18
    87.   JoeyP

    1. CC Sabathia (6yrs 140mils) 20 mils for 09' (backloaded..since Druw/Schmidt both come off after 2009)
    2. Mark Texiera (5yrs 100 mils) 15 mils for 09'
    3. Pat Burrell (2yrs 25 mils) 12.5 mils
    4. Joe Crede (2yrs 15 mils) 7.5 mils

    3rd base is a gigantic hole. No one in the organization can play it, & there's not much on the free agent market. I hope the Dodgers draft a 3rd basemen in the 2009 draft. Its too bad Brett Wallace didnt fall to them last year.

    C - Martin
    CF - Kemp
    1b - Teixeira
    LF - Burrell
    RF - Ethier
    3b - Crede
    2b - Dewitt
    SS - DeJesus

    #1. Sabathia
    #2. Billingsley
    #3. Kershaw
    #4. Kuroda
    #5. Penny

    With depth - Kuo, McDonald ready to fill in.

    2008-10-16 07:26:09
    88.   JoeyP
    When the Manny trade went down, some of us feared that it would lead to a playoff run that would ultimately fall short, would leave us without Manny and LaRoche in 2009, and would allow Ned Colletti to save his job. Looks like that's exactly what's gonna happen.

    Thats true. However, as long as McCourt doesnt extend Ned's contract, I dont have a problem in bringing him back for 2009.

    2009 has some large holes. Its not likely the team will be very good. Therefore, it'd make sense to give Ned the 2009 year & then fire him afterwards. Rather than bring in a new person, have that person struggle~ & then McCourt would look to replace the new guy as well.

    With so many veteran free agents this off-season & the team in clear transition, let Ned take the fall for the 2009 record. Dont bring in a new guy to clean up the mess just yet.

    2008-10-16 07:27:10
    89.   D4P
    Can't see Ned signing Burrell.
    2008-10-16 07:28:16
    90.   Terry A
    Prior to last night's game, my Dodger free agent keeper list included Furcal and, gulp, picking up Penny's option.

    But then I saw what looked like Furcal dogging it chasing after the ground ball he (literally) booted, which allowed Utley to score. Did my eyes deceive me? It looked like he was barely jogging after it.

    And after this series, I'm a big Utley fan.

    2008-10-16 07:31:21
    91.   Ken Noe
    If Manny leaves: Martin (C), Loney (1B), DeWitt (2B), Hu/DeJesus/Furcal @ 1 yr (SS), Crede or someone similar (3B), Jones/Pierre, Kemp, Ethier (OF), Rotation: Bills, Kuroda, Kershaw, McDonald, who knows.
    2008-10-16 07:32:08
    92.   JoeyP
    But how does DeWitt's offensive performance stack up against the average 2B?

    I agree that it'd be great if the Dodgers could upgrade 2nd base, bc I dont see Dewitt's bat being all that impressive. But, the free agent market for 2nd basemen is dim outside of (Hudson- who isnt worth the money, & Mark Ellis - who might be but is on the wrong side of 30). I'd like to see a trade for Uggla, but I cant see the Marlins moving him. So, with limited options, I think the Dodgers might be suited to just keep Dewitt at 2nd & hope he can still work some walks and put up an OBP of .340 or so. His bat is acceptable at 2nd base rather than 3b at least.

    2008-10-16 07:34:25
    93.   JoeyP
    89- He's not. I dont think he'd sign Texeira either, but then again he did sign Furcal when the team had Izturis, so maybe its possible.

    The market for Loney wouldnt be much, but if the team could get a 3rd base prospect that would be quite nice. 3rd base is an organizational black hole.

    2008-10-16 07:41:47
    94.   DodgerBlueBruce
    At least this year the off season will be shorter than last.

    I am reminded of these words every year at this time.

    "It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone."
    A. Bart Giamatti

    2008-10-16 07:43:03
    95.   JoeyP
    Colletti is coming off the best season a Dodger team has had in TWENTY years.

    This just isnt true.
    The team finished 88-82 & had the highest payroll it ever has had.

    2008-10-16 07:48:19
    96.   D4P
    The people who matter won't care about the team's 84-78 (not 88-82) record. They will care that they won their first playoff series in 20 years.
    2008-10-16 07:55:03
    97.   Jim Hitchcock
    Note to Raffy: We all understand that picking one's nose is one of the finest cheap pleasures off mankind...

    ...but not on national TV!

    2008-10-16 07:58:52
    98.   East Coast Dodger
    92 I know DeWitt may be one of Joe's "guys" now, but why not give DeJesus a shot at making the team at second base? Much better defense, and while he provides less power he may have better on-base skills. Put Hu at short. DeWitt can be the utility infielder. Find a short-term solution at 3B, likely via trade. Save money for Manny and CC. I haven't seen McCourt's financials, but if they let Lowe, Penny and Furcal walk they have money to spend.
    2008-10-16 08:10:52
    99.   scareduck
    I am amazed at the number of people who keep saying that Manny will end up as a Yankee when one of the things he has consistently said is that he did not enjoy the pressure off the field in Boston. Double that in the Bronx.
    2008-10-16 08:12:03
    100.   scareduck
    90 - Furcal was, according to Plaschke, playing with a sore neck. Guess he shouldn't have been playing.
    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2008-10-16 08:12:57
    101.   delias man
    87 Good thing you are not running the team.
    2008-10-16 08:14:01
    102.   old dodger fan
    According to mlbcontracts here are the FA's at 3B.

    Casey Blake LAD
    Hank Blalock * TEX
    Joe Crede CWS
    Morgan Ensberg NYY
    Chipper Jones * ATL
    Corey Koskie MIL
    Greg Norton TB
    * - player whose contract includes 2009 option

    If we don't sign Furcal we have a very weak hitting infield outside of Loney. Casey Blake looks pretty good to me but like all FA's we don't know what he will want.

    Without knowing how much money Frank has given Ned to play with it's really hard to say what's a good deal and what's not. If Ned has $25 million to spend over what's committed I'd hate to spend it all on Manny or CC. If he's got $50 million to spend then $25 million on one guy makes more sense.

    2008-10-16 08:24:22
    103.   Humma Kavula
    Why would the Dodgers go for Crede when they seem to have a good relationship with Casey Blake?

    Is one likely to be all that better than the other? Or all that cheaper?

    I don't know if re-signing Blake would receive the Humma Kavula Seal of Approval, but I think Blake has a very good shot at being the team's 3B next year.

    2008-10-16 08:36:37
    104.   Eric Stephen
    - Billingsley has to be earning more that $475K next season, right? This was his 3rd year.

    Technically, this was only his "second" year. Players have to have a full season of service time (172 days) to have a full year under their belt. Billingsley is at 2 years, 110 days service time (source: Cot's Baseball Contracts) so he'll be in his 3rd year of "team control" in 2009, followed by three seasons of arbitration.

    There is a very remote chance he could qualify as a Super Two (top 17% of service time among players with between 2-3 years) which would get him a 4th arb year (like Martin & Ethier will get starting in 2009) but it's highly unlikely because I believe the lowest service time a Super Two has had is something like 2yrs, 127 days.

    2008-10-16 08:38:25
    105.   Marty
    Furry was playing with a bad knee, that's for sure. Werth nearly blew it out in the first inning. That should account for his lousy range last night.

    I'm very disappointed with all the booing last night. It's hard to defend Dodger fans if they boo a team off the field in the NLCS.

    2008-10-16 08:40:19
    106.   Daniel Zappala
    From my long-distance perspective, there is absolutely no way the Dodgers don't put out big money to sign Manny. He brings in a lot of attention and money, he is clearly a power hitter the Dodgers need, and he was fantastic in the playoffs.
    2008-10-16 08:41:36
    107.   D4P
    It's hard to defend Dodger fans if they boo a team off the field in the NLCS

    Dodger fans have high expectations for the team with the 15th best record in the MLB.

    2008-10-16 08:42:13
    108.   scareduck
    103 - because Blake's first choice is, as he has already stated, to go back to Cleveland.
    2008-10-16 08:47:51
    109.   Disabled List's "Truth and Rumors" is already starting some rumors. Who knows how much truth is in them?

    There are some early signs that the Dodgers' negotiations involving Manny Ramirez, who almost single-handedly lifted the storied franchise to the postseason, will not necessarily go smoothly. Ramirez is believed to be seeking a six-year deal for as much as $25 million per year.

    2008-10-16 08:48:05
    110.   old dodger fan
    I wonder if the Mariners would want to do a salary dump with Beltre. He is expensive but so is an infield with only 1 hitter.
    2008-10-16 08:48:26
    111.   cargill06
    We're talking about a franchise that traded away one of its best prospects just because we didn't want to pick up the remaining salary on Casey Blake's contract. I don't think the pocket books are as deep as we think. I think we'll sign Lowe/Sheets/Burnett to a short-term overpriced contract re-sign Furcal. The fate of this franchise IMHO will come down to how Ethier, Kemp, DeWitt, Martin, Kershaw, MacDonald, etc., etc. improve. If some of those guys take big strides forward this can be a very competitive team and win the west. If not, .500 will be a struggle.

    I hope I'm wrong about the pay-roll expectations.

    2008-10-16 08:49:38
    112.   Jon Weisman
    105 - I was there and I thought the booing was very scattered and minor compared to what I've seen in recent years.
    2008-10-16 08:49:40
    113.   Eric Stephen
    Just to summarize the greatest offensive two months anyone has ever had...

    Reg Season: 53g, .396/.489/.743, 36r, 17hr, 53rbi
    Playoffs: 8g, .520/.667/1.080, 9r, 4hr, 10rbi
    Total: 61g, .410/.513/.783, 45r, 21hr, 63rbi

    Just for fun...162g projection:

    120 runs, 167 rbi, 231 hits, 56 HR, 42 2B, 122 BB

    2008-10-16 08:50:48
    114.   Eric Stephen
    That should say "any Dodger", not "anyone"
    2008-10-16 08:50:53
    115.   scareduck
    111 - the signs overall aren't that the Dodgers don't have deep pockets as much as Frank doesn't trust Ned to spend that money wisely.
    2008-10-16 08:52:13
    116.   D4P
    Ramirez is believed to be seeking a six-year deal for as much as $25 million per year

    The 25 doesn't concern me nearly as much as the six.

    2008-10-16 08:56:52
    117.   D4P
    If Manny is truly good enough to deserve $25 mil/year for each of the next 6 years, he'll still be good enough after the 2010 season, upon completing a 2-year contract.

    The reason these schmucks want 6-year contracts in the first place is that they suspect that they won't be good enough to deserve $25 mil/year for each of the next 6 years.

    2008-10-16 08:57:18
    118.   Eric Stephen
    Refuting my own point:

    Pedro Guerrero, June-July 1985: 45g, .391/.489/.833, 52r, 19hr, 39rbi, 269 OPS+

    Manny in LA: ~229 OPS+ (including playoffs)

    2008-10-16 08:58:18
    119.   cargill06
    I don't see the problem with DeWitt at 3B it's realistic to expect at 95-105 OPS+ from him next year. +/- had him as one of the best defensive 3B in baseball in relation to how many innings he logged at 3B, if I could get slighly below average offensive production at 3B and above average defensive that's fine for a $400K player. Sort of a poor mans Adrian Beltre.
    2008-10-16 09:01:30
    120.   underdog
    I don't see anyone offering Manny 6 years. I would be very surprised, anyway. The Dodgers should offer him 4/25 and say "If you loved playing here as much as you say, this should make you happy." If he doesn't take that, fuhgedaboutit.

    As for comment above about Furcal dogging it, yeah he was clearly not 100%. It may have been selfish of him to try to keep playing. But in all the time I've seen Furcal play I've never see him give less than full effort unless he's hurting. He got slid into in a play early in the game and that appeared to have aggravated something. Then he aggravated us in that fateful inning...

    But again, I wouldn't judge his effort itself at all. I think he goes full out when he can.

    2008-10-16 09:01:37
    121.   old dodger fan
    At $25 million per year for 6 years all you know is you are paying $150 million. Do you get 2 good years ($75/year); 3 good years ($50/year)? If you get 6 good years he's worth it but no one thinks he will. He will get far more boo's at the end of that contract than Andruw has.
    2008-10-16 09:01:45
    122.   scareduck
    119 - that is the problem with the Dodgers' offense: a lot of good players but no great ones.
    2008-10-16 09:02:20
    123.   D4P
    Pedro Guerrero, June-July 1985

    My first two games at Dodger Stadium were during that stretch. Pedro went a combined 3-5, with 2 doubles, 3 walks, 4 runs, and 1 RBI.

    2008-10-16 09:02:30
    124.   Ken Noe
    According to Dylan Hernandez, Peavy would accept a trade to the Dodgers, Braves, Cubs, Astros or Cardinals. But I wonder of we could afford the price. I fear dealing with those guys.

    He adds that Ned wants Furcal back.

    2008-10-16 09:02:47
    125.   JoeyP
    112- The booing after that 5th inning when Furcal made the 3 errors was loud & resonating through the TV.

    Maybe the Fox crew overemphasized it.
    But it was pretty clearly loud booing.

    2008-10-16 09:03:12
    126.   ToyCannon
    I heard no booing other then when Furcal made 3 errors in one inning and Billingsley didn't give them what they wanted. Since those boos were in the heat of the moment I think they are excusable. Furcal was still getting big cheers with each at bat after his errors. The crowd was very quiet in the beginning compared to the Sunday crowd or the Cub clincher crowd but they tried to get excited, the Dodgers just didn't give them anything.

    Manny should go to Tampa Bay. They can afford him and with him on the team they might be a real dynasty. He will fill the one hole they have which would be a DH. If he wants to play the outfield they could simply move Crawford to RF and let Manny diddle around in LF. Adam Dunn would also be a nice addition for them. It must be an awesome position to be playing for the World Championship and know you still have good players in the minors and a ton of money to spend on maybe one position upgrade.

    2008-10-16 09:05:20
    127.   underdog
    Also, Molly, if you have any connection via ESPN at all to Amy Nelson, can you please put the smackdown on her for us? She really does not know what she's talking about, and yet she keeps talking. I guess that describes a lot of AM radio people.
    2008-10-16 09:06:05
    128.   blue22
    At least I finally got to shave this morning.
    2008-10-16 09:06:57
    129.   Eric Stephen
    Andruw will make roughly $49,000 today

    I'm pretty sure the players are only paid during the regular season, outside of any bonuses.

    But if it makes you feel better, assuming roughly the same as 2007 numbers, Andruw's full playoff share will probably be between $100-150k.

    2008-10-16 09:07:54
    130.   cargill06
    114 If you didn't have that disclaimer this one maybe tough to top...

    Bonds July and August of '03- 155 PA's .430/.600/1.009 OPS+ 312

    2008-10-16 09:08:00
    131.   underdog
    124 Yeah signing Peavy as a FA would be one thing but having to trade players to the Padres is another. We were neurotic enough with the Maddux trade. I don't want to have to see some Dodger prospects go on to great careers with our rival to the south. Even if it is for Peavy. I'd rather sign CC Sabathia. That just costs money. (Of course, it's not my money.)

    CC and Manny seems like a lot to ask financially, though.

    Hey, does someone have a link to a list of this off-season's FA's?

    2008-10-16 09:08:14
    132.   D4P
    There's really little reason for teams to give out long-term contracts. The fear that drives them to do so (i.e. if we give a short contract, the guy will leave afterwards and we'll be screwed because there won't be any replacement for him) is frequently unfounded, for at least 2 reasons. First, the player might not leave after the contract is up. Second, every off-season brings with it other players who can possibly be acquired to replace him.

    That's not to say that every good player can always be replaced. But the costs of having a long-term contract blow up in the team's face greatly exceed (in my opinion) the benefits associated with avoiding a scenario where you can't find a suitable replacement, especially when the respective probabilities of those events are considered.

    2008-10-16 09:09:51
    133.   scareduck
    110 - I do not see any circumstance under which Beltre is moved. First, his contract is very reasonable, second, ownership does not want to go into rebuilding mode, and third, Beltre has a partial no-trade clause that specifically mentions the Dodgers as a team he can refuse a trade to.
    2008-10-16 09:10:01
    134.   old dodger fan
    2008-10-16 09:10:09
    135.   Eric Stephen
    There's really little reason for teams to give out long-term contracts

    There is the pesky little detail of multiple teams trying to sign such players.

    2008-10-16 09:12:01
    136.   JoeyP
    Why would Billingsley throw Martin under the bus re: pitch selection?

    The pitcher can always shake off the catcher, no?

    2008-10-16 09:12:45
    137.   ToyCannon
    Clippers are having a killer pre-season. Eric Gordon was a monster last night. Anyone see how far from the line he was launching his 3 pointers? Of course not, it wasn't televised but he was one sometimes two feet beyound the arc when he let it fly. Nailed 5 in the 4th quarter.

    Clippers open the season against the Lakers, I don't ever remember that happening before. Before Baron Davis plays one game he will be the best point guard we have ever had.

    Mike Taylor may have been the steal of the draft if it wasn't Andre Jordon. In a few years he will remind people of Leandro Barbosa. See what happens when Elgin Baylor in not in charge of a draft. Good things happen.

    2008-10-16 09:13:21
    138.   JoeyP
    133- Plus Beltre's a free agent at the end of the season. He may be dealt at the July deadline, but I doubt this off-season.
    2008-10-16 09:13:23
    139.   D4P
    Yes, but that should be looked at as an opportunity for other teams to get stuck with bad contracts, not as a reason for your team to offer increasingly more years.

    I should qualify that long-term contracts become an increasingly bad idea as the player's age increases.

    2008-10-16 09:14:39
    140.   D4P
    Why would Billingsley throw Martin under the bus re: pitch selection?

    I didn't read that stuff very carefully, but I seem to remember thinking that all of the bus-under-throwing stuff was written by the journalists, and did not necessarily follow from what Billingsley actually said.

    2008-10-16 09:15:06
    141.   wronghanded
    135 I don't think Bills threw Martin under the bus as much as questioned his own decisions during the game.
    2008-10-16 09:16:37
    142.   ToyCannon
    It is a lot to ask for this year, but after 2009 Andruw and Schmidt would come off the books. Plus I think if we sign Manny we could go with a cheap defensive infield of Loney/Abreu/Hu/DeWitt and get away with it if the rotation is CC/Chad/Clayton/Kuroda/McDonald, with DeJesus ready to replace either Abreu or Hu.

    As far as Joey said about drafting 3rd baseman we have been. Three of them might be in our top 10 in prospects Josh Bell, Gallagher, and Baez.

    2008-10-16 09:17:17
    143.   old dodger fan
    133 Beltre's OPS+ the last 3 years have been 105; 112 and 109. He makes $12 million. Is that reasonable?

    I'm not trying to argue with you; it's just astounding that someone at a corner infield position with those kinds of numbers making $12 million would be considered "very reasonable". He seems overpaid to me.

    Having said that, with our 3B situation, if Blake leaves I'd like to have him. But it's not my money.

    2008-10-16 09:20:02
    144.   regfairfield
    There was boos as Bills got pulled but enough people there realized that he had a great year and he got cheered as he walked off. There was definitely boos in the top deck after Furcal bounced that throw.

    Also, I think your arbitration estimates are way, way too low Jon.

    2008-10-16 09:20:19
    145.   underdog
    I've just made what I'm pretty sure will be my final comment on Mike's Rants, at least for a long time, in his last post. I feel better, even if it doesn't mean anything. Hope I was respectful.
    2008-10-16 09:20:48
    146.   regfairfield
    143 He has elite defense, he's worth it.
    2008-10-16 09:21:02
    147.   blue22
    133/138 - Not to mention he'll be coming off semi-serious thumb surgery too.

    Judging by this year's deadline discussions with Minnesota, Seattle actually wanted a decent haul in return. They don't want to simply unload his salary.

    2008-10-16 09:21:40
    148.   cargill06
    and get away with it if the rotation is CC/Chad/Clayton/Kuroda/McDonald

    That rotation would be scary, scary good.

    2008-10-16 09:22:16
    149.   ToyCannon
    To further expound. We were a pretty good team with Manny in left and an infield of Loney/DeWitt/Berroa/Blake. I think a healthy Abreu gives us excellent defense at 2nd while performing at an average level offensively. Hu should also be expected to give us much better defense then Berroa and at the least as much offense. DeWitt should be able to replicate the OPS of Blake. Higher OB lower power with the expectation that more power will come. DeJesus will probably be better then either Abreu or Hu offensively so he just might take the job out of spring training or by July. He has all the making of an excellent Number one or Two hitter.

    This would all work if Loney, Kemp, and Martin all take a step up offensively. Kemp or Loney has to be clean up hitter next year if we keep Manny. Manny in LF could be a disaster in 3 years or even 2 years.

    2008-10-16 09:23:05
    150.   cargill06
    144 I heard the cheers too but I have a feeling some fans were cheering that he was being pulled.
    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2008-10-16 09:23:47
    151.   Eric Stephen
    Amy Nelson's astonishingly poor article regarding Billingsley and his "blame game" was full of assumptions made by a reporter who hasn't covered the team at all during the year.

    From Nelson last week:
    But after the game, Billingsley was awkward when answering questions and unable to provide any details other than saying that catcher Russell Martin calls the games behind the plate and that "pitch selection" was most likely the culprit.

    "I felt good; I felt I had good stuff," said Billingsley, who added that a lot of the hits went the other way or found holes. "I didn't do well [Friday] and I didn't get the job done and I think pitch selection was kind of what the problem was."


    And so the potential ace was anything but one Friday. As for him basically assigning the blame to Martin, one teammate said, "He'll learn."

    Same day from Dodger beat reporter Dylan Hernandez:

    Billingsley, who had the shortest NLCS start by a Dodgers pitcher since Jerry Reuss lasted only two innings in 1985, said he felt his stuff was fine.

    "I didn't make great pitch selections today," he said.

    Martin, who called the game, smiled and shrugged when relayed Billingsley's comments.

    "When you're not throwing the ball like you want to, it's easy to second-guess yourself," Martin said.

    Myers threw aggressively inside -- in addition to the pitch behind Ramirez, he knocked down Martin in the first inning with a pitch near his head -- but didn't pitch very well, giving up five runs and six hits in five innings.

    Hernandez's article had no assumptions about Billingsley's attitude or character. I feel about Amy Nelson what Ray Finkle's mom felt about Dan Marino.

    2008-10-16 09:24:08
    152.   delias man
    As much as I want to see CC in this uniform, how many 6-7 year deals to a SP have ever worked out? It borders financially irresponsible to make this deal.
    2008-10-16 09:24:09
    153.   underdog
    134 Thanks!

    A lot of mostly washed up overpaid types. And future DH's. The only 2nd basemen worth anything are Mark Ellis and O Hudson, and neither would really help the Dodgers quite as much as their contracts would have it. 3rd baseman don't hold much promise as a group.

    2008-10-16 09:25:21
    154.   wronghanded
    Any rough estimates on how much signing Lowe, Furcal, O-Dog and Manny might be? If we could pull that off, we'd have the best team in the NL IMO.



    If it's too pricy, I say we cut ties with Furcal and plug Hu in at short, that still leaves us really strong.

    2008-10-16 09:25:30
    155.   ToyCannon
    I'd welcome Adrian Beltre back. I'd trade them either Carlos Santana or Andy LaRoche for him.
    2008-10-16 09:25:56
    156.   Jonny6
    After last night's disappointment, I'm way too worn out to start thinking about next year's roster already. With one minor exception. If we don't re-sign Manny what in the world are people going to do with all of those ridiculous fake dreads?
    2008-10-16 09:26:25
    157.   regfairfield
    152 Kevin Brown worked, as much as people don't want to admit it.

    I think a better question is when was the last time an elite pitcher got signed and it didn't work. Enders brought this up a while ago, and we figured that signing truly elite pitchers (Hampton and Zito are not in this category) almost always pan out.

    2008-10-16 09:26:54
    158.   blue22
    153 - Get Crede, who is basically a clone of Pedro Feliz (<.300 OBP with ++ defense), on a short-term deal.

    Pair up Crede with DeWitt and Abreu, and form a 3-man rotation at 2B/3B.

    2008-10-16 09:27:34
    159.   underdog
    151 Well done.

    Now then, Eric, and company, here you go:

    Do feel free to drop her a line. The more the merrier. She needs to apologize, frankly.

    Maybe there's an email you could cc, also.

    2008-10-16 09:27:53
    160.   delias man
    134 Kerry Wood was interesting to me on that list at a 2 year deal. He will probably get more years.
    2008-10-16 09:28:18
    161.   regfairfield
    If you want Crede or Feliz, you might as well put DeWitt at third.
    2008-10-16 09:29:16
    162.   blue22
    157 - Getting CC's age 28-34 seasons helps. Kevin Brown was already 33/34 when LA signed him.
    2008-10-16 09:29:33
    163.   ToyCannon
    How many pitchers of CC's age and pedigree have ever been available as a free agent? Normally I wouldn't consider it but I love CC, his pitching, his style, his bat.

    He looks like a Cub to me always has. I have a hard time picturing him in a Dodger uniform but no problem at all picturing him in a Cub uniform.

    2008-10-16 09:31:30
    164.   delias man
    157 Kevin Brown was clearly not worth his salary for the entire 7 years of the deal, but I am surprised his ERA+ was good for 5 of the 7.
    2008-10-16 09:32:14
    165.   regfairfield
    164 Elite players are damn near priceless, so five good years out of seven is fine.
    2008-10-16 09:33:23
    166.   blue22
    161 - I'd rather give Crede a short deal than 5 years to Hudson or trade someone like McDonald for Beltre. I just don't think Ned will go with DeWitt and Abreu as starters next year.
    2008-10-16 09:33:39
    167.   delias man
    165 If you can dump the last 3 years on someone. Which seems to happen a lot.
    2008-10-16 09:34:41
    168.   Eric Stephen
    I want to add that I searched the archives for Tony Jackson's or Diamond Leung's takes on Game 2, and none of them -- beat writers who covered the team almost every day -- had any mention of the "blame game."

    I think it was a case of Nelson not being familiar with the demeanor of Billingsley, and also that she is a horrible person. :)

    2008-10-16 09:37:21
    169.   old dodger fan
    157 Depending on how you define "elite" it could be a very small sample.

    How many pitchers who were already "elite" then signed a 6-7 year contract?

    2008-10-16 09:37:55
    170.   Bumsrap
    Most GMs are concerned about which Manny would show up if they were to sign him. If the Dodgers can someway move at least one of Pierre, Schmidt, Jones contracts I would be just fine with paying Manny $30,000,000 for one year. Then Boras can do his thing using 1 1/2 years of the good Manny to forecast the next 3 to 4 years to more GMs willing to listen than will listen now.
    2008-10-16 09:39:07
    171.   Kevin Lewis

    That last line was awesome.

    Well, as bad as the game was last night, I still enjoyed the ride. It was nice to see Ethier, Torre and Nomar come out after the game. I have always rooted for Nomar to stay healthy, and you gotta admit, he is one classy guy.

    I didn't read through all the comments from last night, but what was the discussion like after Torre took Beimel out?

    2008-10-16 09:39:27
    172.   old dodger fan
    I don't think even the Yankees will sign Manny to a 6 year deal.
    2008-10-16 09:40:31
    173.   Eric Stephen
    Pedro pops to mind.
    Clemens never signed a 6-year deal.
    Maddux signed a couple 5-year deals.
    2008-10-16 09:40:46
    174.   blue22
    170 - How many "Manny's" are there really? Seems like he's always been the same guy - devastating hitter with the temperament of a 12-year old.
    2008-10-16 09:41:05
    175.   underdog
    Hey, Jason Varitek is a free agent! :-/

    Odds on the Dodgers signing him as a backup? I say 6-1.

    2008-10-16 09:41:53
    176.   blue22
    173 - Johan far, so good.
    2008-10-16 09:47:53
    177.   Bumsrap
    The Dodgers have Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw, Elbert, McDonald, Kuo, Stultz and maybe Penny and Schmidt to fill the 5 starter spots. The question is can they win a championship without trading for Peavy or signing CC.
    2008-10-16 09:51:04
    178.   ToyCannon
    They can compete in the West but to give them the best chance at a Championship I'd be making CC my top priority.
    2008-10-16 09:51:18
    179.   cargill06
    Ramirez said in the clubhouse. "We'll see what happens in the offseason. I want to see who is the highest bidder."

    Hey, at least he's honest. I think Omar Mineya will make some crazy contract offer.

    2008-10-16 09:51:51
    180.   wronghanded
    177 We were 2 good Billingsley starts away from playing for a title this year, I think we should try to roll the dice with Lowe for the next 2-3 and trust that at least Bills and Kershaw will become top-shelf starters, I was personally impressed by McDonald this postseason as well. I think he'll make a good #5 as a rookie.
    2008-10-16 09:53:40
    181.   Jon Weisman
    144 - I failed to take the whole Super-2 thing into account. I'll adjust.
    2008-10-16 09:54:36
    182.   blue22
    Despite Peavy's wishes, I just find it hard to believe that LA and SD would engage in a trade of that magnitude. Can you imagine Peavy facing SD 4-5 times per year, or LA having to watch Matt Kemp star for the Padres for the next half-decade?
    2008-10-16 09:56:49
    183.   gibsonhobbs88
    I think the Dodgers shot their last cannon on Monday night and when sucker punched in the 8th inning - the momentum of the series permanently went to the Phillies. You could just tell last night-no zip in their step. Hamels was dealing, dodger defense(Furcal) in the 5th let Maddux down. Great season just kind of ended on a disappointing thud of a night. No more magic in having the 20 year anniversary of Gibby's homer or 50th year in LA. The Phillies won the games, their bullpen was better, they hit in the clutch better(at least they found the holes instead of gloves) and they defended better. If the Red Sox get in, I don't care who wins, really as that was my least favorite matchup I had written at the start of the playoffs. If the Rays get in, I am rooting for the Rays, great last to first story! Also, to stick it to Fox and Selig that would want a Northeast big city Boston-Philly matchup! But for karma purposes that Selig/Watson didn't fine either Brett Myers or Clay Condrey a red penny for throwing at Manny or Russell, I wish the Rays - Phillies ratings nightmare on Selig and Fox!! You condone throwing at our players heads, you don't deserve good ratings!!
    2008-10-16 09:59:46
    184.   Bumsrap
    I would guess the Padres would want Elbert and McDonald plus a position player and the Dodgers might bite on the pitchers but not a position player currently starting.
    2008-10-16 10:00:44
    185.   delias man
    180 I am sticking with W. O'Malley on this one regarding Lowe - Get rid of them too early rather than too late.
    2008-10-16 10:01:19
    186.   Harold M Johnson
    The fans were awesome last night. Despite a very disappointing game, they were on their feet and cheering madly for every Dodger batter in the 8th and 9th innings. That level of passion, in a 5-1 elimination game, cheered me up somewhat. I also personally saw lots of Dodger fans congratulate Phillies fans around them, there was no anger or bad behavior (at least in my section).
    2008-10-16 10:02:50
    187.   Eric Stephen
    The sad thing is there will be a ton of articles on how bad the World Series ratings will be, when the focus should be on baseball.

    I tangentially care about ratings for TV shows I watch, because they can be canceled if enough people don't watch. But baseball ain't getting canceled anytime soon, so I wish people would shut up about it.

    2008-10-16 10:03:29
    188.   Bumsrap
    If the Dodgers were to sign Penny ( use option) could they trade him?

    If Schmidt were to be ready to pitch by spring training, would Seattle want him involved in a trade for Beltre?

    2008-10-16 10:04:30
    189.   cargill06
    188 I don't think you'd get a D prospect for Schmidt right now.
    2008-10-16 10:04:31
    190.   Harold M Johnson
    Re: Manny, I think the Dodgers will try to sign him and lose out to the Mets or Angels, the former likely to give him more years. They'll then make a run at CC, but lose out to the Cubs. Finally they'll sign Texiera, deal Loney and McDonald for Peavy, sign Crede to play 3rd bring Furcal back, and buyout Penny.

    That's my prediction, not my desire.

    2008-10-16 10:04:52
    191.   Harold M Johnson
    actually, that makes no sense, I forgot about Gonzales in SD. Scratch that whole dumb comment!
    2008-10-16 10:05:40
    192.   blue22
    190 - The Padres best player plays firstbase.
    2008-10-16 10:05:42
    193.   wronghanded
    190 Loney to the Pads? They have Gonzalez.
    2008-10-16 10:06:04
    194.   blue22
    191 - Oops, sorry.
    2008-10-16 10:06:39
    195.   wronghanded
    194 ditto
    2008-10-16 10:07:19
    196.   Harold M Johnson
    my fault for typing without thinking, the point i was trying to make is that I think they won't be able to get the top 2 FAs, but perhaps can get #3, Texiera, and then will deal Loney for an arm-- first thought was Peavy but I forgot about Adrian.
    2008-10-16 10:13:10
    197.   Jacob Burch
    I'd rather have Tex (in a bubble) than Manny.

    But so do the Yankees. And your above scenario has the Yankees not getting anyone worth much. This will not happen.

    Thanks for the list young. Going to play around with it in the Livejournal community.

    2008-10-16 10:13:30
    198.   blue22
    196 - I think LA has a real legitimate shot at CC. Do the Cubs have money to spend? Their rotation seems pretty full (not that CC wouldn't become their best starter right away, just that it doesn't seem to be a glaring weakness). Looks like Dempster is a FA, so perhaps they'll look at CC to replace him. Their payroll is really starting to bulge though, and they need some OF help.

    I do think they'll miss out on Manny, whom I'm pegging for the Mets. I think Tex goes to the Yankees, as they'll break the bank for him, or stays in Anaheim.

    2008-10-16 10:15:00
    199.   gibsonhobbs88
    187 - I normally could give a rats behind about World Series ratings either, but i can just picture Selig right now - just begging and pleading and praying that Boston gets back and wins knowing they have a national fan base. And because not fining someone that instigated the whole chain of events is not logiccal to me, it only leads me to the conclusion that Watson/Selig heate the Dodgers and condone target practice on the Dodger hitters craniums!!
    The ptich to Russell the inning before Victorino was a lot closer to injuring Russell than the one to Victorino! The one to Russell was EYE LEVEL!! I am very protective of my players and Watson seems to almost salivate at the thought of a Unconsious or Dead Dodger player on TV!!
    2008-10-16 10:15:45
    200.   Kevin Lewis
    I think the fans were pretty good last night, but it did not feel like a playoff game to me.

    There were two girls in the top deck that got the boot. First it looked like they were going to kiss, but than I realized they were just talking smack really close to one another. And they were sitting together, so who knows what the context was with that fight.

    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2008-10-16 10:21:05
    201.   scareduck
    143 - Beltre's VORP over the last three years was 24.6, 28.6, and 19.9; only in the first year of that deal could you call him overpaid. David Cameron made a very good case for him being underpaid in a Fangraphs piece entitled, "The Underrated $64 Million Man":

    2008-10-16 10:23:41
    202.   Disabled List
    It kills me that with all these expiring contracts and inexpensive players on the roster, the Dodgers will "only" have about $40 million to spend on free agents. We're being forced to choose between CC and Manny and Furcal, etc., when we really ought to be able to make runs at all of them.

    Of course, we know who we have to thank for that. The guy who signed the followin stiffs and somehow earned himself another off-season in charge of the team:

    Andruw Jones: $17 million
    Jason Schmidt: $12 million
    Juan Pierre: $10 million

    2008-10-16 10:23:44
    203.   Bob Timmermann
    That was Branch Rickey's saying, not Walter O'Malley's. Walter O'Malley's most popular saying was "It looks like your check has cleared, so have a seat."
    2008-10-16 10:24:56
    204.   ToyCannon
    The Vowel will head back East. He's always said that is where he wanted to play. The Orioles, Yankee's, and RedSox(Move Youk to 3rd) all need 1st baseman and they all have money to spend on someone like him.

    Our 6-4-2 Angel expert has said that the Angels will not be players for Manny. He has precious few teams that might be bidding on his services. Whatever we hear might be Boras spinning things.

    2008-10-16 10:25:34
    205.   scareduck
    151 , 159 - those quotes are about entirely different games. Good grief, if you're going to go around slamming Amy Nelson, kindly stick to the same postgame interview space.
    2008-10-16 10:26:41
    206.   JoeyP
    142- Gallagher slipped my mind. He seems like the best hope for developing a 3rd basemen down the line.

    Bell & Baez havent done much.

    2008-10-16 10:26:56
    207.   LoneStar7
    I plan to drop Amy an email as well, very doubtful she'll give any sort of apology though.

    As far as next year two questions, can Ivan play second or short?
    and also is there a chance that an "in shape"and rededicated Andruw could start hitting again if placed in front of Manny? just a thought.

    This would obviously require commitment from him, but hey not a bad place to try and win comeback player of the year by hitting next to Manram..

    2008-10-16 10:28:38
    208.   ToyCannon
    One year deals left for Andruw and Schmidt should not stop them from going after two premier free agents if they feel that is the right thing.
    If Rafy a premier free agent?
    2008-10-16 10:29:24
    209.   Kevin Lewis

    What happens to Ethier or Kemp?

    2008-10-16 10:30:02
    210.   Jacob Burch
    205 Both seem to refer to Game 2 of the NLCS to me, which she brought up again last night. Am I missing something?
    2008-10-16 10:31:14
    211.   KG16
    CC Sabathia starting 15 games at Dodger Stadium and another 5 or so combined in Phone Book Park, Bank Merger Stadium, and Petco is sort of an intoxicating idea.

    I'm thinking the options/priorities are:
    1. Manny
    2. Sabathia
    3. Furcal/Hudson
    4. the pitcher from Japan (can't remember his name at the moment)

    At least, those would be the priorities if I controlled the purse strings.

    2008-10-16 10:32:15
    212.   LoneStar7
    209 well I guess I had been thinking if Matt were dealt (not that i necessarily want that) but I know his name has been tossed around, and i assume will continue to be in the offseason.
    2008-10-16 10:33:31
    213.   Eric Stephen
    It pains me to type this, but...

    Worst ERA, Single Postseason, Two or More Starts, Dodgers
    1) Don Newcombe - 21.21, 1956 (2 starts)
    2) Odalis Perez - 14.40, 2004 (2)
    3) Vic Lombardi - 12.15, 1947 (2)
    4) Roger Craig - 8.68, 1959 (2)
    5) Chad Billingsley - 8.49, 2008 (3)
    6) Don Sutton - 7.13, 1978 (3)
    7) Burt Hooton - 6.92, 1978 (3)
    8) Carl Erskine - 5.79, 1953 (3)
    9) Rube Marquard - 5.73, 1916 (2)
    10) John Tudor - 5.68, 1988 (2)

    2008-10-16 10:33:52
    214.   ToyCannon
    I thought you'd like Bell. His age 20 year at Great Lake was not markedly different then Lambo's and you think Lambo is great. He lost this year to a knee injury. I wouldnt' count him out of the running yet. Problem with Gallagher is that he's 6'5, kind of tall for a 3rd baseman.
    2008-10-16 10:34:09
    215.   savvyjr
    Suggestions/discussion for this offseason:
    - go HARD after Sabathia or look to trade for Peavy (we need an ACE on the staff with character).
    - Sign/trade Penny for Beltre, or look to pick up Crede
    - Any chance of signing Varitek to catch and moving Martin to 3B?
    - Any takers out there for Jones if we eat some of that contract?
    - Sign Manny to a 5 year deal (that he's asking for) with a club option after year 3, where he can be traded.
    2008-10-16 10:35:39
    216.   OhioBlues12
    I just don't see us being able to sign Manny and CC. Originally, I thought CC should've been the priority but now I am thinking Manny is. I am a little worried about all of the abuse that CC has taken over the last couple of seasons. What we need to figure out is how we can turn some of our dead weight into something we can use. Sending Pierre to Cincy for Bronson Arroyo with cash evening out the deal would be a way to do that. Arroyo is not a top of the rotation guy but he is consistently a 200 inning/yr guy whose numbers would probably improve slightly coming to LA.
    2008-10-16 10:36:29
    217.   ToyCannon
    He also messed up your bad Chad, good Chad chart which I showed everyone I could yesterday. Stupid numbers
    2008-10-16 10:37:40
    218.   Eric Stephen
    those quotes are about entirely different games. Good grief, if you're going to go around slamming Amy Nelson, kindly stick to the same postgame interview space

    Both were regarding game 2. It was newsworthy because Amy Nelson has been on at least two ESPN Radio programs since the end of the series spewing the same nonsense.

    2008-10-16 10:38:41
    219.   ToyCannon
    They have this guy named Jay Bruce playing CF. Juan Pierre is not something they need just because they got rid of Cory Patterson. He wasn't playing after Bruce came up anyway.

    The White Sox still seem the best possible destination for Juan Pierre.

    2008-10-16 10:39:14
    220.   cargill06
    Keith Law starts off his chat thread this way...

    Keith Law: (1:03 PM ET ) So I hear that Chad Billingsley is now blaming the dry cleaner for failing to get the yellow stain out of the front of his pants...

    2008-10-16 10:40:27
    221.   KG16
    216 - why shouldn't the Dodgers be able to sign Manny and Sabathia? They are in the second biggest market, they draw 4 million a year, merchandise sales haven't been hurting (I've seen more Dodgers gear lately than Angels gear - in Orange County). They should be able to compete with the likes of New York, Boston, and Chicago when it comes to paying players.
    2008-10-16 10:40:54
    222.   ToyCannon
    Peavy has a 12.10 ERA in the postseason. That is what his character got him.
    2008-10-16 10:41:37
    223.   D4P
    I just don't think Billingsley blamed Martin. I'm open to being wrong, but at this point I consider the controversy to have been invented by the media.
    2008-10-16 10:41:47
    224.   underdog
    What is Lambo's most likely ETA, btw? 2010 I presume, with a possible late 2009 call-up?
    2008-10-16 10:41:49
    225.   ToyCannon
    Ouch, Law has to blame someone for blowing his pick of us in 5 game.
    2008-10-16 10:41:50
    226.   OhioBlues12
    219 - Bruce can't play all three OF positions. They have no one else besides him, unless Freel and Hopper count. Dusty is also a fan of Pierre.
    2008-10-16 10:42:13
    227.   delias man
    203 I stand corrected.
    2008-10-16 10:42:19
    228.   D4P
    They should be able to compete with the likes of New York, Boston, and Chicago when it comes to paying players

    They are. They gave big bucks to Schmidt, Jones, Pierre, etc.

    2008-10-16 10:45:45
    229.   KG16
    228 - I wouldn't call that "competing" so much as "stupefying"
    2008-10-16 10:46:29
    230.   Frip
    I'd like to hear people's assessment of DeWitt. I think he's a very good defensive player. No? Good enough to make up for his bellow average hitting?
    2008-10-16 10:49:25
    231.   wronghanded
    If we can sign Hudson, I have no problem with DeWitt at 3rd. If we are planning on starting Hu and Abreu then I don't like it.
    2008-10-16 10:49:26
    232.   Kevin Lewis
    Bills' delivery looked off last night. His left leg was pulling back differently than I have seen in the past. It just looked awkward.
    2008-10-16 10:50:45
    233.   bferb
    Considering that we have almost $50 Million coming off the books, we should be able to afford a "Casey Blake-esque" 3rd baseman (Crede, probably being the best option. FYI Beltre won't come back to the Dodgers, he doesnt like it here and we are specifically on his no-trade list), along with Manny and CC.

    Then our starting rotation would be

    Pretty solid... (Lowe is not coming back as he doesnt want to, and considering the way Penny left this season it seems highly unlikely his option will be picked up.)

    Bullpen hopefully would remain more or less the same, although picking up someone else for late innings would be great if there were someone out there at a reasonable price (I am not a fan of paying $10 million+ for a Brian Fuentes type of guy).

    If we resign Manny, we would essentially have the same lineup, which clearly has some holes if this team wants to win a championship. And the BIGGEST HOLE is... a cleanup hitter. Manny alone and a bunch of potential .300 hitters with 15 - 20 homer power just doesnt quite cut it. We NEED a cleanup hitter IN ADDITION to Manny. This was glaring all postseason when you looked at either Martin or Ethier choking it up behind Manny. Neither of those guys are cleanup hitters, lets face it. And all championship teams nowadays have real threats in the 3/4/5 slots. Not just one threat, but two or three.

    Here's the move we need - TRADE JAMES LONEY (and a mid-level prospect) for PRINCE FIELDER!!

    This gives us another real power threat in our lineup and IS a deal that the Brewers would do. They are trying to get rid of him now, because he will be due a big contract after next year. AND WE CAN AFFORD HIM, because we will have Schmidt and Jones (combining nearly $35 million) coming off the books. We could pay Fielder and still afford the rising prices (through arbitration) of our other guys (Billingsley, Martin, Ethier, Kemp)

    THIS IS WHAT THE DODGERS NEED. Hopefully the front office has some real vision. Listen, I like James Loney and he seems to be Mark Grace reincarnate (who had a great career), but we need to look at our most glaring needs and right now it is power, and we can get a young power hitter while retaining our three (Martin, Kemp, Ethier) other young .300/15-20 home run guys.

    Lets discuss.. Thoughts?

    2008-10-16 10:51:19
    234.   ToyCannon
    He's 22, the assumption that he will always be a below average offensive player seems over played to me. For three months this year he had an OPS over 750 and for two of those it was over 850. The other months he completely sucked. Why is it a given that his lousy months are more indicative of his ceiling then his good months?
    2008-10-16 10:51:22
    235.   wronghanded
    232 Yeah, I kind of look at this postseason as a learning experience for Chad, Hamles got ripped last year then came back strong this year. Hopefully Bills can and will follow suit.
    2008-10-16 10:52:32
    236.   ToyCannon
    Why would the Brewers make such a deal. Are they idiots?
    2008-10-16 10:52:57
    237.   delias man
    I hope Dewitt and Abreu go to the DR and play this winter with Furcal and Jones.
    2008-10-16 10:53:41
    238.   blue22
    233 - Prince Fielder can fetch a bigger package than one led by James Loney. Milwaukee needs a frontline pitcher back. I think that Fielder-for-Cain trade really makes a lot of sense for both teams.
    2008-10-16 10:54:01
    239.   bhsportsguy
    236 And so the off-season begins.
    2008-10-16 10:54:33
    240.   Eric Stephen
    If we resign Manny, we would essentially have the same lineup, which clearly has some holes if this team wants to win a championship

    Counting only the times Furcal was healthy (through May 5) or Manny was here (Aug 1 on), the club averaged 4.91 runs/gm over 86 games.

    They just scored 40 runs in 8 playoff games.

    That will get it done.

    2008-10-16 10:54:52
    241.   blue22
    219 - What about Pierre to St Louis, after the Cards trade Colby Rasmus to San Diego to get Peavy?
    2008-10-16 10:55:33
    242.   wronghanded
    240 Amen, unfortunately we need to sign Manny to make that happen.
    2008-10-16 10:55:47
    243.   delias man
    Loney - 24 yo, already stated he is going to hit the weight room this winter. He surely deserves his spot in the Dodger 09 lineup.

    I can understand Kemp/Dewitt criticism, but not Loney.

    2008-10-16 10:58:23
    244.   Kevin Lewis
    I guess I am happy to see Plaschke pushing for the young guys to stay as the core, but I don't understand how Furcal would be the "center" of our offense.
    2008-10-16 10:59:11
    245.   LOB
    I just got my 2008 World Series tickets delivered to my door step.

    Kind of like receiving the printed wedding invitations the morning after you broke up with your fiance.

    How's everybody else doing this morning?

    2008-10-16 10:59:49
    246.   LoneStar7
    is it likely that beimel will be coming back, from what I understand he is a free agent and for someone that ws used so rarely by joe I wonder if we'll shell out for him?

    I am in the camp that doesn't believe furcal is coming back and obviously not lowe, so pursuing pitching after signing manny should be the goal.

    is there any updates on tony abreu? and isn't andruw already in arizona, mexico or the DR playing ball somewhere?

    2008-10-16 11:00:10
    247.   wronghanded
    I expect Ethier and Martin to give us similar production next year but I think both Loney and Kemp will make good offensive strides. I see Kemp hitting 25+ next year with a .280+ BA. Loney will hit over .300 with around 20. If we re-sign Manny and get that kind of progression from Kemp and Loney (BTW having Manny will help make this happen) our offense will be solid.
    2008-10-16 11:00:35
    248.   underdog
    Loney will get better and bigger re: power, and Fielder will (like Leon in Airplane) laaaaarger. And as stated above the Brewers wouldn't do it anyway, they need pitching back. If he's traded it'll be for a frontline starter.

    Pierre will get traded this off-season, mark my words, and there are several pretty good fits for him. What the Dodgers get back for him is another question, but I guess we shouldn't expect much.

    Meanwhile, from Keith "I'm obnoxious today" Law's chat:

    >>Mike (NYC): K-Law, was wondering if the bad pitch selection you saw from Lidge early in the Brewers series is still there. Is he going to blow up in the WS?

    SportsNation Keith Law: (1:46 PM ET ) Kemp's flyout last night is probably out of most ballparks - certainly out of Philly. He's been a little shakier than I'd like a closer (or leveraged reliever) to be in the the playoffs. <<

    2008-10-16 11:03:06
    249.   Eric Stephen
    Oh man, that's awful.

    The only thing worse is if you had to go through with the marriage, and your bride was...Amy K. Nelson (who would refuse to take your name).

    (OK, I'll stop now. I promise)

    2008-10-16 11:05:26
    250.   LOB

    That made me laugh - even moreso because I'm a she.

    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2008-10-16 11:05:55
    251.   bferb
    Bottom line is every championship (not playoff) this day in age has a solid combination in their 3/4 slots. We need at least two threats of guys that can hit 30+ homers.

    The reason I think the Brewers would make such a trade is they need to get rid of Prince now.. bottom line. I think they might take a guy like Loney who is solid and proven at the major league level, who they can control for two more years (and will ultimately be cheaper than Fielder), and then a SP prospect or two.

    Of course, if they get an offer for a frontline SP like Cain, Milwaukee would take that, but with the lack of good starters these days, who knows if Milwaukee gets that offer.

    2008-10-16 11:06:31
    252.   regfairfield
    233 Would you trade Prince Fielder for Loney and Bell or something?

    I still have no idea how to handle this off season, but right now focusing on pitching and defense seems like a good idea. My dream lineup (which I'm sure will change 50 times right now)

    C Martin
    1B Loney
    2B Mark Ellis (free agent)
    SS Hu
    3B DeWitt
    LF Ethier
    CF Kemp
    RF Franklin Guiterrez (received from Indians for Ivan DeJesus. Controversial!)

    Sabathia (free agent)

    Cleveland needs middle infielders and they have a huge clog with solid youngish corner outfielders so the deal works for both sides.

    Everyone on this team has the potential to be the best defender in baseball at their position, except for Kemp and Loney (who could very well improve). The 2003 Dodgers couldn't hit a lick but they still won 85 games with league best pitching and defense. This team would be similar, just without the four guys on basing under .300.

    2008-10-16 11:07:23
    253.   cargill06
    233 Clean up hitter... ANDRE ETHIER?!?!?!?!?!?!
    2008-10-16 11:09:26
    254.   wronghanded
    252 That offense would make me sick, I've been spoiled by Manny.
    2008-10-16 11:09:43
    255.   cargill06
    252 Didn't Oakland sign Ellis to an extension?
    2008-10-16 11:10:25
    256.   Lexinthedena
    Re-Signing Manny, along with Kemp, Loney, Ethier and Martin is a goof offensive core.

    The question is leadoff. I like Furcal and would do a 1 year deal, but I have a feeling the Chi-Sox or Cubs will give him more.

    With the 2 through 6 spots being Martin, Manny, Ethier, Kemp and Loney, I'm fine with DeWitt at 3rd, and Dejesus at 2nd.

    What do should be done about SS?

    As for pitching, I'm not worried. A # 3 or 4 starter can be had, and McDonald, and Kershaw will be awesome.

    2008-10-16 11:10:47
    257.   Harold M Johnson
    I thought this season proved that the Dodgers really need a big bat in the middle of the order. Without one, I don't see how they compete. There is no one on the team who is signed for next year who fits that description except for Andruw Jones 3 years ago.
    2008-10-16 11:12:31
    258.   wronghanded
    257 Even 3 years ago, Andruw didn't do what Manny just did.
    2008-10-16 11:12:41
    259.   cargill06
    Fielder 128 OPS+ this year
    Ethier 126 OPS+ this year.
    2008-10-16 11:13:20
    260.   regfairfield
    255 I don't remember that happening, but it could have.
    2008-10-16 11:13:28
    261.   LoneStar7
    did anyone notice tony jackson was interviewed on something called word on the street...he thinks its less than 50-50 than that manny comes back.

    and as far as 252 I'm not sure if I can live with that little pop after the manny and casey experience lol..

    2008-10-16 11:14:06
    262.   regfairfield
    254 Yeah, that team isn't scoring any runs, but they're not allowing any either.
    2008-10-16 11:14:25
    263.   cargill06
    Dan (Washington DC): What's your take on the Dodgers-Phillies series? Did the Dodger youngsters choke? or was it a matter of inexperience? Billingsly seemed to have his stuff and then all of a sudden it was gone. What happened?

    Keith Law: (2:09 PM ET ) Phillies have a good lineup, and the Dodgers' good pitching didn't really show up. Billingsley was truly awful, despite #1 stuff. Torre mismanaged the pen again. The Good Brett Myers showed up.

    Really? 5IP 5 ER.

    2008-10-16 11:15:09
    264.   LoneStar7
    261 interviewed on ESPN that is, the segment was called word on the street
    2008-10-16 11:16:40
    265.   D4P
    IMO, Andruw Jones never qualified as a "big bat". The guy is a career .828 OPSer who eclipsed the .900 mark a whopping twice, and even when he hit 51 HRs in in 2005 he still only managed .922 (the lowest OPS ever for a player with 51+ HRs in a season). Plus, he's got the bad kind of OPS (i.e. low OBP, high SLG).
    2008-10-16 11:17:22
    266.   bferb
    I would trade Loney and Bell for Fielder in a heartbeat.

    Your lineup would be great if we played in Cleveland, but this LA we can afford some sluggers!

    254 said it properly!

    2008-10-16 11:18:02
    267.   Bob Timmermann
    My doctor told me that I had too much bad OPS and he prescribed some stuff for me and told me to cut back on my doubles.
    2008-10-16 11:19:37
    268.   jasonungar07
    I'm pretty much done with the diehard obssesion with the Dodgers if we don't go after Manny. The only reason we wouldn't would be money.
    2008-10-16 11:19:45
    269.   regfairfield
    266 The point was that you'd be insane to do it the other way around.
    2008-10-16 11:19:50
    270.   wronghanded
    262 Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a lights-out staff with above average defense but I also think that our offense at least needs a pulse. I think it's a delicate balance and to skew too far one way or the other probably won't work, unless of course Loney, Kemp and Ethier all improve and carry us offensively.
    2008-10-16 11:19:52
    271.   Satchmo
    In keeping with the headline of this post, I offer the following. A happy winter to all.

    "My own circle of intimates seems smaller than it used to be, and there have been moments when I have realized that I seem to know more about twenty or thirty baseball players than I do about some friends I have had for many years. I can only conclude that these adopted, seasonal relatives have filled a real need for me, and perhaps for other fans as well. The lives of most baseball players may be trifling, but there is always fresh news of them; something is happening to them every day, which is more than we can say with certainty about ourselves."
    --Roger Angell

    2008-10-16 11:20:43
    272.   bferb
    Well said 267! Haha

    OPS+ is a great stat 259, but we cant continue fielding an entire team with warning track power.

    2008-10-16 11:21:38
    273.   regfairfield
    270 I do agree, I don't like an offense that terrible, but it seems like it's completely unfixable this offseason. I'd rather be really good at one thing than okay at a lot of things.
    2008-10-16 11:23:29
    274.   cargill06
    I heard that if Kent got on in the 8th, Andruw Jones was heard grunting in the clubhouse batting cage telling Joey, "I got one good swing in me."
    2008-10-16 11:23:31
    275.   Lexinthedena
    A most interesting off-season at hand for sure/

    DT is gonna be jumpin'!

    2008-10-16 11:23:55
    276.   Eric Stephen
    Ellis hasn't signed an extension. He will be a free agent once he files (after the WS).
    2008-10-16 11:25:47
    277.   wronghanded
    273 Whats your take on signing Manny and picking up Penny's option? If Penny can stay healthy, we'd have a legit rotation and be pretty close to what we were this year offensively (post-Manny trade).

    I like this rotation:

    2008-10-16 11:25:52
    278.   Lexinthedena
    Why do people want Ellis so bad?

    He has a nice glove but can't hit?

    am I missing something?

    2008-10-16 11:26:50
    279.   Harold M Johnson
    I'm worried about Penny being productive at all in 2009. It seems unlikely given what happened the last two years.
    2008-10-16 11:27:23
    280.   Lexinthedena
    277 What do people make of Penny? Even when he was good he wasn't that good, but as a #3 he seems acceptable. Then there is health.
    2008-10-16 11:27:38
    281.   KG16
    230 - I'm more or less in the tank for DeWitt. I think he performed pretty well at the major league level for a guy who was suppose to start the year in double A. I see no reason why he can't build on his experience this year, and I think he's got potential to be above average at either third or second (more so at second). He's younger than Ethier, Martin, Loney, and Kemp (not to mention Billingsly, Broxton, Elbert, and MacDonald)- if we expect them to improve (which we do, and they should), there is no reason why DeWitt shouldn't improve as well.
    2008-10-16 11:27:42
    282.   cargill06
    278 It's pretty safe to assume his .248 BABIP this year was pretty unlucky.
    2008-10-16 11:27:55
    283.   Lexinthedena
    Does McDonald remind anyone else of Pedro Astacio?
    2008-10-16 11:27:55
    284.   Eric Stephen
    Speaking of Myers, also from the Law chat:


    zach (Brooklyn): Isn't the kind of hero worship Brett Myers has been getting this postseason disgusting given what Tim McCarver said about Manny - who never beat his wife up outside Fenway, whatever his faults, or what others were saying about, say, Milton Bradley or Lastings Milledge all year?

    SportsNation Keith Law: (2:14 PM ET ) What's the difference between Myers and Manny/Bradley/Milledge? I can think of one thing...

    2008-10-16 11:28:39
    285.   wronghanded
    279 2 years ago Penny had a career year minus the K's.
    2008-10-16 11:28:46
    286.   regfairfield
    278 He's got more power than you think, and he plays in a very tough ballpark. His batting average was low this year, but he had a terrible BABIP. He's a good hitter for a second baseman.

    277 Long terming Manny scares me, especially if he's looking for five or six years. If we could get him for three, I'd do it, but I don't think it will happen.

    2008-10-16 11:30:49
    287.   bferb
    Why are people wanting Mark Ellis?

    .265/.337/.407 99 OPS+
    (career stats, he was much worse last year although only 117 games)

    I'd rather stick with DeWitt who had a decent rookie year, is very cheap and has upside IMO

    .264/.344/.383 88 OPS+

    2008-10-16 11:30:51
    288.   KG16
    256 - I'd go with Kemp leading off
    2008-10-16 11:31:24
    289.   cargill06
    286 Weird he's actually shown more Isolated power at home.
    Home .l53
    Road .133
    2008-10-16 11:31:54
    290.   Harold M Johnson
    285 yes, but 2 years will be 3 next year, and 3 years is a long time in the life of a 31 year old pitcher. I don't know, it's worrisome to me.
    2008-10-16 11:33:24
    291.   cargill06
    287 Ellis defensively will save you 10-15 runs compared to DeWitt assuming DeWitt is a league average 2B (which he hasn't shown he is)
    2008-10-16 11:33:57
    292.   regfairfield
    287 See above, and he's one of the best defensive second baseman in baseball.
    2008-10-16 11:35:13
    293.   wronghanded
    290 Most pitchers don't decline that rapidly in their young 30's, the only 2 things that scare me about Penny are his health and his pedestrian 2-half numbers in his career.
    2008-10-16 11:36:50
    294.   bferb
    291, that is true, but DeWitt is 22 and certainly can improve his 2nd base Defense. Plus the $5 million (or whatever it would take to sign Ellis) isn't worth 10 - 15 runs. DeWitt only costs us a little over $400k
    2008-10-16 11:37:46
    295.   regfairfield
    294 At least in my case I'm using DeWitt at 3rd.
    2008-10-16 11:38:22
    296.   bferb
    And I'm pretty sure DeWitt is capable of hitting 10+ homers as you would expect from Ellis
    2008-10-16 11:40:22
    297.   Lexinthedena
    I like DeWitt at third and DeJesus at 2nd.

    Even if DeJesus loses a lot of average, his ability to draw walks is huge, and makes him a plausible candidate IMO.

    2008-10-16 11:40:54
    298.   OhioBlues12
    Penny has been throwing up red flags for a while now. I would not pick up his option.

    Regarding Dewitt. I think he will be the starting 2B next year, if we are going to have any shot at bringin Manny back, we will need 2B to be manned by a cheap player. Playing winter ball should help DeWitt solidify his defense even though it has been preety good from my estimation.

    2008-10-16 11:40:56
    299.   Lexinthedena
    297 they will be the DeDodgers.
    2008-10-16 11:41:44
    300.   bferb
    295 Right on. If DeWitt's our 3rd baseman, then Ellis makes more sense. It would be nice to get some more pop out of a 3rd since its one of the few places we have room to add some real power
    Show/Hide Comments 301-350
    2008-10-16 11:41:54
    301.   blue22
    294 - I think Ellis will get a 3-4 year deal, about $7M per if he's considered healthy. If he's forced to take a discounted contract, he probably goes back to the A's.
    2008-10-16 11:46:43
    302.   cargill06
    Figures... is posting a poll question, which 25 year old or under starter would you want for the next decade?

    Hamels 49%
    Lester 29%
    Kazmir 12%
    Garza 6%
    Billingsley 4%

    2008-10-16 11:47:19
    303.   RELX
    One area that nobody seems to be talking about (unless I missed it) is the bullpen. Is Saito healthy? Does he come back? If so, is he the closer for next year? Or do we cut ties with him and give the job to Broxton? And what about Kuo? Can he stay healthy enough to be considered a reliable part of the pen?
    2008-10-16 11:50:19
    304.   Bob Timmermann
    I no longer speculate about Hong-Chih Kuo. I've been wrong, or possibly right, too many times.
    2008-10-16 11:51:09
    305.   blue22
    303 - I wouldn't be surprised if Saito decided to head back to Japan. Seemed like he was {this close} to doing it last year.

    But with Kuo, Wade, and Broxton, that's a good core. You can fill in from there with random arms.

    2008-10-16 11:51:10
    306.   OhioBlues12
    I don't see a reason not to bring Saito back if he is healthy and willing. Maybe he is not the closer and maybe we go with more of a closer-by-committe situation with Saito, Broxton, and Kuo. I think bullpen is the one area that we probably don't need to focus much attention on. There will be plenty of names in the mix like Wade, Elbert, and Stults.
    2008-10-16 11:51:55
    307.   DougRau
    Lurker who finally signed up today to commisorate with ya'll. Dodger fan for 30 years who had a blast this season. Forgot how winning felt to be honest.

    Look forward to being a part of this.


    2008-10-16 11:52:19
    308.   Indiana Jon
    302 I'll take none of the above, aka Lincecum.
    2008-10-16 11:52:43
    309.   JRSarno
    DeWitt has made great strides. Disappointing at-bats since Game 1, first inning triple, but no one expected him to have the evolution he did this year, let alone be even in those situations. Great motivation tool for him. Plus, I think Mattingly will make him into a monster.
    2008-10-16 11:52:47
    310.   sonsofwestwood
    267 I would have expected your doctor also to tell you to walk more.
    2008-10-16 11:52:56
    311.   blue22
    302 - It's obviously a list of playoff participants, but I'd take Lincecum over the lot.
    2008-10-16 11:54:57
    312.   Indiana Jon
    308 311 I didn't realize at first it was all a playoff list, but just to further distort the picture, I would take Joba at number 2.
    2008-10-16 11:56:25
    313.   blue22
    312 - I also had to double-check Lincecum's age. He's 25 next June.
    2008-10-16 11:57:47
    314.   Jon Weisman
    I'm intrigued by the pitching-and-defense approach as well.
    2008-10-16 11:58:56
    315.   JRSarno
    309 - that is, Game 3.
    2008-10-16 11:59:16
    316.   Bumsrap
    I love watching young Dodgers grow together. I don't like having to cheer for other team's players whose careers temporarily pass through the Dodgers on their way to their end.

    I believe Hu, Abreu, and DeWitt can serve the Dodgers and be good role players. One or two might wind up being traded. The three have yet to earn core status like Kemp, Loney, Martin, and Ethier have.

    CC would be the Drysdale on the Dodger team and Kershaw, Billingsley, Elbert, McDonald the Koufax/Hershisers of the Dodgers.

    In the absence of great 3, 4, and 5 hitters I will settle for great pitching and defense. Just give me a team I can route a long time for.

    2008-10-16 12:03:39
    317.   cargill06
    252 If you want to trade for Guiterez and go defensive minded OF, why not just put locks on the fridge and pantry doors in the Jones household?

    LF- Ethier
    CF- Jones
    RF- Kemp

    That would probably be a better defensive OF, and maybe better offensive. You keep DeJesus also.

    2008-10-16 12:04:16
    318.   Ken Noe
    So how much money did McCourt make by getting as far as he did into the playoffs?
    2008-10-16 12:05:32
    319.   bferb
    Enough that he better not screw all his fans this offseason with weak moves
    2008-10-16 12:06:07
    320.   Kevin Lewis
    So, who is up for a softball game the weekend of the 25th/26th at the Rose Bowl?
    2008-10-16 12:09:00
    321.   Bob Timmermann
    I'm going to the Breeders Cup on the 25th.
    2008-10-16 12:10:33
    322.   D4P
    I'm calling PETA.
    2008-10-16 12:19:48
    323.   underdog
    I'm kind of relieved to find this place as busy as ever, on this Day After. No quiet funerals here -- we move on!
    2008-10-16 12:20:15
    324.   Bob Timmermann
    I promise to geld every winning horse.
    2008-10-16 12:22:00
    325.   underdog
    Btw, count me as one who loves Mark Ellis, but while I approve of the Dodgers trying to improve their defense, not sure if he'd be the best fit for what they may need next year vs. what they already have from youth. But a Beltre, Furcal (or DeJesus/Hu), DeWitt and Loney infield would make me pretty happy. For only one year of Beltre, though, wonder who Colletti would give Seattle. I shudder to think.
    2008-10-16 12:22:18
    326.   D4P
    It's funny: I'm not 100% convinced that the gelding process qualifies as "ethical". I'm not saying it doesn't, but it's not obvious that it does.
    2008-10-16 12:23:04
    327.   bhsportsguy
    318 Not that much, comparatively speaking.

    The league's players get 60% of ticket sales revenues for the first three games of each division series and the first four games of the league championship series and the World Series.

    The Dodgers and Phillies will split whatever revenues from Game 5 that MLB does not distribute into the central fund. All merchandise sales are shared with the 30 clubs.

    2008-10-16 12:23:30
    328.   Eric Stephen
    I don't think I ever officially posted this, and today is as good a day as any...

    Dodger Thoughts 2008 Projections - In Review

    Martin: 291/369/464 projected; 280/385/396 actual
    Loney: 311/368/494; 289/338/434 (JoeyP had the lowest and most accurate projection of 280/340/440)
    Kent: 278/356/467; 280/327/418 (ToyCannon was the best here with 267/338/421; I owe him something of value)
    Ethier: 290/354/458; 305/375/510
    Kemp: 298/349/509; 290/340/459 (Brent Knapp was reasonably close with 285/340/480)
    Pierre: 296/336/361; 283/327/328 (Nate Purcell was dead on - 290/329/333)
    Furcal: 290/355/425; 357/439/573
    Nomar: 286/334/413; 264/326/466
    Andruw: 260/346/508; 158/256/249

    Wow, we were way off on the hitters. We predicted too much power from the regulars (except Ethier, who out powered the projections).

    Billingsley: 3.40 ERA / 1.26 WHIP projected; 3.14/1.34 actual
    Lowe: 3.80/1.29; 3.24/1.13
    Kuroda: 4.14/1.35; 3.73/1.22
    Saito: 2.48/1.02; 2.49/1.19
    Broxton: 2.50/1.07; 3.13/1.17
    Beimel: 3.81/1.31; 2.02/1.45
    Penny: 3.63/1.31; 6.27/1.63
    Proctor: 3.71/1.33; 6.05/1.68

    We were closer on the pitchers, but the top 3 (actual) ended up all outperforming expectations.

    2008-10-16 12:28:00
    329.   D4P
    Andruw: 260/346/508; 158/256/249
    Andruw: 260/346/508; 158/256/249
    Andruw: 260/346/508; 158/256/249
    2008-10-16 12:28:57
    330.   Kevin Lewis

    I really look forward to Ethier playing a whole season

    2008-10-16 12:30:07
    331.   Eric Stephen
    The lowest projected slugging % for Martin was .440, which was 44 points higher than actual.
    2008-10-16 12:32:48
    332.   D4P
    Martin's actual SLG seems too low to dismiss as "random".
    2008-10-16 12:34:21
    333.   underdog
    Cool. Jon's got my back on Mike'sRants.

    Oh, crud. I keep forgetting I have a job. Back to it, then.

    2008-10-16 12:35:19
    334.   bhsportsguy
    330 I still think that one of the myths of the 2008 season is how much Andre Ethier not playing in 10-15 games more hurt the Dodgers.

    The absence of Furcal, Nomar and LaRoche both getting hurt in ST, Saito's injury, Penny's injury and yes, Andruw Jones all had more impact than what happend with Ethier, especially since at least some of his missed games were due to his platoon splits.

    2008-10-16 12:36:29
    335.   s choir
    I would sign Manny Ramirez to a 6-year deal. He is still going to be a fearsome presence in the lineup at age 40.

    Even if you think he'll decline after age 40, you're still getting four dominant years out of him. Four years in which the Dodgers would be a threat to go all the way just because of his presence in the lineup. We have needed a hitter like him for a very long time. He can be our Barry Bonds.

    We have to either put up what it takes to re-sign him, or make the Yankees pay so much for him that they can't pay anyone else.

    2008-10-16 12:41:16
    336.   Ken Noe
    326 As a farm boy, I can assure you, male horses and cattle would dispute that gelding is ethical. I can still hear the mournful laments.
    2008-10-16 12:42:01
    337.   Jon Weisman
    Regfairfield, did that salary grid you had on TrueBlueLA disappear?
    2008-10-16 12:46:24
    338.   Humma Kavula
    332 I was just thinking about that myself, as part of a larger context:

    What is fair to expect from the position player kids in 2009?

    Martin was 5th in VORP among C, even with the lousy slugging. Is it fair to expect him to improve this?

    Loney was 20th in VORP among 1B. This is the only one I am confident in saying must improve or the team will find an alternative.

    Kemp was 9th among CF. A bit above average. Is it reasonable to expect improvement from him when most teams don't have a CF as good as he is right now?

    Ethier 4th among RF. Certainly above average. Can he keep that up?

    DeWitt/Hu get Incompletes, but both were below average, I think.

    In other words... I've said before and I stand by the statement that the Dodgers' chances in the future depend upon the development of the kids... but looking closer at it, I wonder if that's fair to expect. What if this is as good as it gets? What then?

    2008-10-16 12:50:34
    339.   regfairfield
    337 I need to update it.
    2008-10-16 12:51:43
    340.   old dodger fan
    335 Career home runs hit after age 39-
    Mays- 32
    Ruth- 6
    F Robinson-3

    This year was Manny's age 36 contract.

    Everyone in the higher echelons of the all time HR list outside the steroid era falls off in their late 30's.

    2008-10-16 12:52:44
    341.   regfairfield
    Here's the link to it. Now that I look at it, it's pretty much accurate still.

    2008-10-16 12:52:51
    342.   whodat807
    I probably watched more baseball this season and cared more intensely than ever in my life. Though the last series was a huge letdown, I'm glad the season went on the way it did - it was pretty exciting. And I'm glad I joined this community; it made this season even more fun. Thanks all.
    2008-10-16 12:56:45
    343.   Eric Stephen
    I think you are right about that. I looked up Ethier's stats, and found he started 131 games this season, meaning there were 31 games he didn't start. Taking away the 3 games he missed when his baby was born, that leaves 28 games not started by Ethier.

    Of those 28 games, only 7 were started by RHP, so most of the benching was platoon related.

    Also, the Dodgers were 17-11 in non-Ethier starts (4-3 against RHP), FWIW.

    2008-10-16 13:08:44
    344.   berkowit28
    328 "Wow, we were way off on the hitters. We predicted too much power from the regulars (except Ethier, who out powered the projections)."

    And Furcal, even more so. When he was around, so maybe that's why you skipped him?

    2008-10-16 13:09:16
    345.   JoeyP
    233- Loney + Prospects for Fielder seems like a good deal. Just not sure if the Brewers are in such dire financial straits that they have to deal Fielder (in addition not signing CC, Sheets, etc).
    2008-10-16 13:09:35
    346.   elandcohen
    Dear Frank

    I have been a Dodger fan my 31 years on this planet Earth. I am however ready to jump ship to another team if you do not make EVERY effort to resign Manny Ramirez. It has to be an honest effort. Not like the "effort" you made when trying to resign Adrian Beltre. I don't want any excuses as to the organization not having enough money. You have raised Ticket Prices, Parking and concessions almost every season since you bought the team. You can also get creative. Pay Manny less up front. After next season, you have the contracts of both Andruw Jones & Jason Schmidt coming off your books. That's 30 million, which would EASILY pay Manny's salary.
    If you make an honest effort and Ramirez goes elsewhere, I will accept that. But if you try to lowball him I will stop cheering for the Dodgers until you no longer have anything do with the organization.
    I jumped ship on the Rams when they moved. not until Georgia died did i jump back on.


    2008-10-16 13:12:50
    347.   Jon Weisman
    2008-10-16 13:13:43
    348.   JoeyP
    Everyone on this team has the potential to be the best defender in baseball at their position, except for Kemp and Loney (who could very well improve).

    You really think Dewitt & Martin are great defenders?

    I also think putting Frank Gutierrez in the OF is really banking on his OF defense making up for his anemic bat. Not sure thats a good wager.

    2008-10-16 13:13:43
    349.   elandcohen
    p.s. save some money for Furcal as well
    2008-10-16 13:26:08
    350.   ToyCannon
    Here is a list of every hitter since 1947 with an OPS+ > 100 sorted by descending age. Lots of solid age 40 year old seasons in there. I would think that Manny could do a Winfield age 40 season.
    I have no problems giving Manny 4 years. The 5th year is the problem. Six years would be excessive and money you might as well flush down the toilet.

    Show/Hide Comments 351-400
    2008-10-16 13:29:02
    351.   bferb
    I agree with you 100%. Anything beyond 4 yrs and $100 MM would be stupid. If the Yanks, Mets, Jays or Phils want to pay higher, we should probably let them.
    2008-10-16 13:29:29
    352.   chris w
    I was also at the game last night and come away feeling disappointed yet not entirely surprised. We were playing with house money I feel good that we rode it as long as we did. It's sort of like getting to kiss the pretty girl but knowing that you're not going to be able to take her home.

    Manny has help the kids grow up. But there was only so much he could do in such a short time. I believe that signing Manny would be the right thing to do on many levels. Regardless of his age, if he wants 5 years, give it to him. He's healthy now. The Dodgers have spent so much money in the recent past on guys coming off of injuries and then not being able to perform. I you get three seasons out of him he's paid for himself in Colletti's mind anyway.
    From a hitting standpoint,we don't have anything to lose. You figure you can safely get three more seasons out of him. He is what he is in left field. Live with it and move on.
    Finally, he's made the Dodgers relevant to Los Angeles. Of all the high priced free agents that have been signed, only Manny has captured the imagination of Dodger fans the way some of the past "stars" have; Nomo, Fernando, Piazza, Gibson etc. Until August, the Angels had more star power than L.A. We've spent a lot of money on guys on the downward spiral. Manny's at least still spinning and his skills have not shown sign of diminishment yet. They will, mind you. But with money freed up from Penny, Nomar (sorry) and Kent, Unfortunately we're stuck with Andruw Jones and Jaun Pierre for a while but not much longer.
    I would try to re-sign Furcal for a year or two if he's willing, he is a good anchor in the middle and Dewitt will benefit greatly which ever side he plays. Hu in the lineup worries me. He's looked so overmatched at the plate. Hopefully another year will help but I don't know.
    In the end Manny needs to come back. Get another frontline pitcher and keep developing the farm system. We're in a weak division. It shouldn't take much to get back to the playoffs but if we want to go deep, the Dodger's need to be proactive.

    2008-10-16 13:29:58
    353.   ToyCannon
    Just an FYI. In 1984 Rick Sutcliffe was traded from the Indians to the Cubs in mid season and went 16-1 posting a 144 ERA+ and winning the Cy Young award. He was 28 years old. In December the Cubs signed him to a long term contract.

    He pretty much was league average after that. Then again he was league average before the bizarre mid season turnaround in 1984.

    2008-10-16 13:39:19
    354.   ToyCannon
    Gut put up an OPS > 850 over the last two months of the year. He was the opposite of Kemp a slow starter who had a good finish, while Kemp had a good start and poor finish.

    I don't agree with Andrew that the Indians need middle infielders. They simply need to flip flop Peralta and Cabrera. Cabrera was awesome for a middle infielder once he got straightened out posting an 820 OPS in the 2nd half and building on the promise he displayed in the 2nd half of 2007. I'd take him over any of our infield prospects considering he's only 22.

    2008-10-16 13:45:34
    355.   savvyjr
    Hudson would be a nice fit I think, but would love to see him paired with Furcal up the middle. One name I'm not hearing anything about, is Hank Blalock. See today, and one scout rated Blalock as the best hitter in the Al during the second half. Is he a free agent?
    2008-10-16 13:59:25
    356.   bferb
    Blalock is not a free agent, but could be on the trade block. Not sure who we would have to barter for him though.
    2008-10-16 14:03:04
    357.   bferb
    Sorry let me rephrase, Blalock has a $6.25 Million club option. I was presuming it will be picked up
    2008-10-16 14:05:38
    358.   bferb
    Thoughts on Jerry Hairston Jr. as a cheap 2B if DeWitt plays 3rd? The crop is so weak after the O-dog

    What say ye?

    2008-10-16 14:25:39
    359.   savvyjr
    No-go on Hairston Jr! Again, all of this is assuming the Dodgers bring back Furcal...if we do, we can place Dewitt at 2B or 3B, and go after the appropriate 2B or 3B in the free agent pool or trade. Penny in a sign/trade with Texas (starving for pitching) for Blalock and a quality bullpen guy (CJ Wilson?) might work.
    Pitching wins championships, and while we have a nice crop of youngsters who could theoretically fill out or starting five, I wasn't overly impressed with Bills or Kershaw in the postseason. Sabathia and Peavy have got to be on our radar.
    2008-10-16 14:28:44
    360.   dsfan
    Don't buy high on Mannny/Boras unless it's two years at a big number with a vesting option, maybe a player option. Stick to it! If he walks, he walks.

    Don't buy high on CC unless he's willing to take a big number for three years only. Just because so many buy-high contracts for pitchers tend to be toxic.

    Go with DeWitt at third, DeJesus at 2B and, if you can sign him 1 year with an option, which I think you can, Furcal at SS.

    Take the five draft picks for Manny (2), Lowe (1), Blake (1), Penny (1) and tell Logan White to have a party. Oh yeah, bust slot if White says it's worth it. And retain the first-round draft pick.

    Once the media shellacking ended, I still think the Dodgers would be able to sell a lot of tickets and win the NL West. They'd have money to spend this summer and next offseason, and they would reseed a farm system that got them here in the first place but now is pretty thin.

    2008-10-16 14:31:17
    361.   bferb
    Good ideas 359
    2008-10-16 14:33:59
    362.   savvyjr
    I agree with comment #360, although we need to add at least ONE quality starter. Can't just let Lowe and Penny walk away without replacing them with a legit #1 or #2 pitcher! While it seems we have no intention on keeping Penny it seems, he would have a real good value in a sign/trade scenario, and there's how you replace Kent or Blake. Manny is going to walk and then we have to figure out what to do with Jones and or Pierre.
    2008-10-16 15:00:08
    363.   istillhateniedenfuer
    Don't count out Derek Lowe yet. I heard from someone in the know that Lowe had basically written off any chance of re-signing with the Dodgers b/c he didn't like the clubhouse atmosphere, but he is a big Manny fan and thought that things were much better in the clubhouse once Manny got there. So if Manny stays, Lowe may stay as well (presuming he gets an offer in the general ballpark of what he could get as a free agent).
    2008-10-16 15:05:04
    364.   savvyjr
    First off, Manny isn't going to stay...he'll be in New York with either the Mets or Yankees. Lowe is an "I-guy", and has never endeared himself to his teammates. In the first couple years of his contract, he could never focus on pitching, because he was too busy chasing around Carolyn Hughes (while he was still married). Then these last couple of years, he only turned it on when Maddux came on board. Speaking on Maddux, any chance we resign him, as a long reliever/emergency #5 guy?! Why not!

    Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.