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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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We Should All Be So Insulted
2008-11-12 07:30
by Jon Weisman

Let me start by saying that I don't really expect Manny Ramirez to end up being a Dodger next season, mainly because I'm not convinced they'll launch their offer into the stratospheric heights and lengths it will probably take to get him.

Even so, the labeling of the Dodgers' opening offer as an insult has grown tiresome.

There's no way, short of a contract that would have been insulting in its excessiveness, that Ramirez is going to sign with the Dodgers before agent Scott Boras hears offers from other teams. It does the Dodgers no good to come to Boras with their top offer when he's simply going to take it to other franchises and ask them to beat it. Whether you want Ramirez or not, for the Dodgers to offer him and Boras what they want would be a plain mistake.

Think about it this way:

  • The Dodgers' ideal scenario is Ramirez for two years at $X million per year; for Boras it's six years at $Z million per year.

  • The Dodgers would probably be content with Ramirez for three years at a bit above $X million per year; Boras would probably be content with Ramirez for five years at a bit below $Z million per year.

  • Meeting point: four years, $Y million per year.

    Now, this leaves out the details like option years, fringe benefits and of course, what X, Y and Z are. But this is pretty basic stuff. Boras might ultimately get a team that will go for more than four years/$Y million, but there's no guarantee - so for the Dodgers to start negotiating at that level would be just plain dumb.

    There's a reason that teams and free agents don't normally negotiate in public, and this is why. Negotiations aren't pretty, and they are particularly unbecoming in the early stages. Judging the opening stages of a negotiation is like judging Cinderella based on the look of her stepsisters.

    I'm not sure why the Dodgers have broken tradition to leak their contract offer to Ramirez. It may be, as the speculation insists, for the public relations value, but as almost anyone can see - and could anticipate - that value has mostly been negative. The Dodger fans who want Ramirez want him now, and would never feel comforted by a contract offer well below agent Boras' opening demands.

    That doesn't mean the current offer - if it's true - is a bad starting point. In a negotiation, no matter how much you might want a player, you have to show backbone, and you have to be willing to walk away.

    * * *

    Postscript: Ramirez fared decently in David Pinto's defensive ratings for left fielders, finishing just below average - neck-and-neck with Matt Holliday and well ahead of Jason Bay and Pat Burrell.

    "Manny actually did better than Jason in 2008," Pinto writes. "I'm going to need to break down the two by team to see how much the parks might have made a difference. Bay certainly looked better than Manny watching him play for the Red Sox."

  • Comments (252)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2008-11-12 07:45:06
    1.   D4P
    Unless you're negotiating with a friend/relative/someone you know and trust and expect to deal with multiple times in the future/etc./etc./etc., it's pretty standard operating procedure for your first offer (or series of offers) to be below your "BATNA", or "best alternative to a negotiated agreement", or "the course of action that will be taken by a party if the current negotiations fail and an agreement cannot be reached".

    That being said, however, there's no guarantee that the Dodgers will necessarily continue to improve upon their initial offer to Manny.

    2008-11-12 07:54:07
    2.   cargill06
    There's nothing wrong with Adam Dunn for less money either.
    2008-11-12 07:56:57
    3.   MC Safety
    Well said, Jon.
    2008-11-12 08:01:08
    4.   Eric Stephen
    I think if the Dodgers don't get Manny, they don't go after another OF. And I'd put a sizable chunk of change on the fact that they will not sign, or attempt to sign, Adam Dunn.
    2008-11-12 08:03:34
    5.   Patagent
    My guess is Manny will get a 3 or 4 year offer from someone. I want Manny for 3 but would consider offering Manny a 4 year deal if the Giants or Dbacks are on the verge of signing him.
    2008-11-12 08:04:54
    6.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
    I can't stand the press, so it doesn't surprise me to see them jumping all over the Dodgers for something they do.

    John: you've put the right perspective on the negotiation right there. Two years is what the Dodgers could count on from Manny if they don't want to assume they'll eat unproductive (or less productive) years. I'd be satisfied with 2-4 years of a contract, but if it takes five or six, walk away, Neddy, walk away...

    2008-11-12 08:06:21
    7.   CajunDodger
    Very good post. What I fail to hear in the local media is the fact that Boras will call the Dodgers before Manny signs anywhere. Boras will always try to wring every dollar out of his free agents. If we came to Manny with a truly insulting below market offer (say 2/25 total), we still would just wait for Boras to call us when another team gets involved.

    Yet again, the Angels quietly showed yesterday why Moreno is a better owner than McCourt by not even offering Teixeira anything during their negotiating window. They knew that Boras would simply take it to the Yankees and get them to improve upon it.

    2008-11-12 08:06:50
    8.   JoeyP
    The Dodgers leaking the offer in the press just didnt make any sense, other than PR (which as Jon mentioned has turned into actual bad PR for the Dodgers).

    I cant remember the last time the Dodgers had 2 really bad contracts (like Pierre/Druw) that severely hamper what they can do.

    And that makes no mention of Jason Schmidt's deal.

    2008-11-12 08:14:54
    9.   delias man
    My close friends that are Dodger fans are 100% behind not signing Manny for all of the above reasons.

    I say that because they are really just your average fan that is knowledgeable, but not overboard on the inner workings of the team and stats like the rest of us here.

    I hope there are many more fans out there with that type of common sense to realize all of these factors of age, attitude, money, etc.

    2008-11-12 08:16:59
    10.   MC Safety
    2 4 If Ned wouldn't take him for free, what makes one think we would offer him a long term deal?
    2008-11-12 08:30:59
    11.   cargill06
    10 Because there wasn't a need for him at the time.
    2008-11-12 08:41:08
    12.   Kevin Lewis
    Well said, Jon. I was surprised when the media was portraying this as the final offer from the Dodgers. It makes sense to see what the other teams might offer before you up your price. It's like pricing a used car, you list it for more than you will actually accept, and you offer for less than you are willing to pay.
    2008-11-12 08:41:30
    13.   oshea2002
    Well said Jon. I agree, it was probably done for PR, and probably has backfired. I think we can all agree that this won't get it done, but as you state this is what negotiating is about. The releasing it part is dumb, b/c it makes no sense to negotiate in public, and will just enrage those fans who want Manny at any cost. Now, if Manny doesn't sign, it will look like it's only b/c they lowballed him and insulted him, when the truth could be something totally different.
    2008-11-12 08:45:23
    14.   Tripon
    Olney offers this analysis, mind you, he's been rather anti-Manny in his writing every since the whole Red Sox-Manny feud started this year:

    But in reality, that $22.5 million salary would make Ramirez the highest paid outfielder in the majors. And there is no evidence, yet, that any other team is going to get involved at that level in the Ramirez bidding. So if you're sitting in Frank McCourt's seat, you will feel the pressure created by the Boras-shaped perception that this offer is low -- but considering the state of the finances in the NL West, and given the size of the offer already made, what would compel you to make a larger offer?

    2008-11-12 08:45:51
    15.   Gen3Blue
    Well said is right.

    Some credit is due JP in the fielding results, although it is not a huge sample.
    I have to say I had a bit of trouble reconciling Ethier's below average results with what my eyes tell me. I'm sure some of this has to do with the fact that getting the ball and what you do afterwards are not always related. I can't say I was always paying great attention as I watched most of the games this year, but I often seemed to see Ethier get the ball in good position and make a quick, strong and accurate throw. This doesn't show in most fielding stats, but it sure influences how I feel about an outfielder.

    2008-11-12 08:46:55
    16.   Tripon
    Notes: After witnessing Manny Ramirez's impact on the Dodgers and their fans, the Washington Nationals and GM Jim Bowden are promising everyone they're going to be players in the Manny bidding. So either they will be or they want everyone to think they are. Either way, the Nats would be better served spending their money on pitching. …

    It'll be kinda amusing to see the six year offer come from the Nats.

    2008-11-12 08:47:52
    17.   adrian beltre
    we may have to accept that ned just doesn't value what dunn brings to the table, but does anyone have an idea what kind of deal he is looking at/for this offseason? i have always thought he would fit well into the lineup.
    2008-11-12 08:51:41
    18.   bhsportsguy
    I don't think the Dodgers could have played this much differently.

    If they never released what they offered Manny and he gets signed by another team, fans and media will never believe that the team was ever going to sign him again.

    The Brewers said early on that they were going to make CC an offer, well its now 1 day before other teams can negotiate with him and we still don't know if that ever happened.

    2008-11-12 08:51:44
    19.   LogikReader
    I can see that post 267 in the last thread started a firestorm.

    I think the basis of my initial complaint (or insult, if you will) was that I don't get the impression that there will be a counter negotiation. When I received word of the 3/60, which I thought was a 2 year deal with a 3rd year option, I felt that was Ned's final offer.

    The responses have insinuated that this is merely a precursor to a bigger contract offer to Manny. If that's the case, then I would be happy to take back what I said earlier.

    I want to re-iterate that even if L.A. doesn't sign Manny, it won't be the end of the World. Like many of you, if given the choice, I'd much rather grab onto Sabathia and hope he doesn't blow his arm out.

    Likewise, I see good reason for the Dodgers to be tepid about signing an aging 37 year old DH to a long term contract. L.A. is already torched with two similar contracts to Pierre and Jones. It seems like Manny's stay with any team ends badly, and the Dodgers have a golden opportunity to let the trainwreck pass them by and hit another clubhouse.


    I may be underestimating Ned and Frank, et. al. with their contract negotiation. Making a deal with Boras is not easy. I was just hoping the Dodgers didn't lowball Ramirez in their contract talk. I probably erred in letting my emotion cloud judgement of Manny in 2009.

    I appreciate this forum for offering counter-points to my points.

    2008-11-12 08:51:51
    20.   cargill06
    17 My very uneducated/uniformed/probably wrong guess. 5-75 or 80.
    2008-11-12 09:02:52
    21.   JoeyP
    If they never released what they offered Manny and he gets signed by another team, fans and media will never believe that the team was ever going to sign him again.

    Well, releasing the details of a low offer sends the same message: that the team has no interest in signing him. If you dont release anything, at least there's still some mystery there.

    I'm still wondering why they leaked the "no deals greater than 3yrs" thing to the press too. Its almost like they're sending a message to season ticket holders that havent re-upped yet--"Dont get your expectations up for the 2009 year".

    2008-11-12 09:08:02
    22.   regfairfield
    Was that an actual leak, or just something Olney assumed because he forgot about Pierre?
    2008-11-12 09:10:45
    23.   MC Safety
    21 I just don't see how our offer means we have no interest in signing him. I think you are way off labeling our offer "low".
    2008-11-12 09:13:29
    24.   Tripon
    22 It was Turkjian, not Olney.
    2008-11-12 09:15:32
    25.   Bob Timmermann
    Actually, it's Kurkjian, who's Armenian, so Turkjian is probably not a good mistake to make.
    2008-11-12 09:17:32
    26.   dan310
    While I agree that teams rarely negotiate publicly, Boras seems do it with every free agent, at least to open negotiations. I believe his goal is to change the perception of what is reasonable for a player. The more times you hear Manny and six years in the same sentence the less ridiculous it sounds, possibly making a four or five year deal more likely. While the Dodger's public offer could be PR or poor management, it could be an attempt to realign expectations in the minds of other teams, perhaps taking that fifth/sixth year off the table.
    2008-11-12 09:22:11
    29.   GoBears
    Great post, Jon. The Cinderella line cracked me up.

    I'm a little late to this conversation, but I have one question and one comment.

    The question is (along the lines of 22 ) do we know how much of this is the Dodgers leaking and how much is the media just inventing (er, speculating)? For me, unless I see a Dodger official on camera, I just don't believe anything I hear about the personnel stuff.

    The comment is about what the team would gain by leaking the offer. I think that in this case, the fact THAT the team made Ramirez an offer needed to be publicized, to satisfy his local fans. But it's more than that. Manny Ramirez is, as we know, a little different than most people, even more Boras clients. He seems to want to be loved, and not only in terms of money. I think LA's only chance of landing him is if he really wants to play here (money would have to be close, but not necessarily the top bid). For that reason, leaking a fast and big first offer might have been done not only to reassure fans, but to let Manny know that everyone knows that the team loves him. It's one thing to declare your love in private. It's quite another to do so in public.

    Just a thought.

    2008-11-12 09:24:59
    30.   D4P
    That's how I see it too. Boras typically gets a lot of "hand" in negotiations by lobbing the first salvo regarding what it reasonable for his client. I, for one, welcome the efforts on the part of Dodger overlords to be proactive in setting expectations regarding what is reasonable for Manny.
    2008-11-12 09:25:12
    31.   cargill06
    Just a thought.

    Perhaps a Dodger thought?

    2008-11-12 09:29:11
    32.   mwhite06
    Anybody have an idea what contract terms it would take to sign Dunn or Burrell?
    2008-11-12 09:39:24
    33.   Terry A
    The key is to remember the best outcome in any negotiation: win/win/win.
    2008-11-12 09:45:13
    34.   regfairfield
    32 5/75 neighborhood probably. Maybe you can get Burrell for four.
    2008-11-12 09:50:21
    35.   fanerman
    32 agrees with 20
    2008-11-12 09:52:28
    36.   Kevin Lewis
    And who keeps "leaking" this information about Manny, Martin, Penny?

    Can we get some control over in the front office?

    2008-11-12 09:52:33
    37.   dkminnick
    Great post, Jon.

    The Dodgers have re-set the opening level of the overall market for Manny, as astutely recognized by Dan310 in 26 .

    I do not know the inner workings of FA negotiations across the league, but by going public, they also may prevent Boras from inflating the Dodgers' offer when talking to other teams. (Does this kind of thing happen in FA negotiations? I know it does in the music biz).

    Personally, I think going public was a smart move by the Dodgers. If Manny accepts a deal for less than Boras's (sic?) wild demands, I think they will be proven right.

    2008-11-12 09:55:27
    38.   regfairfield
    Dunn and Burrell might get kind of hosed because there's certain types of GMs that don't value what they do at all, and the ones that do realize that guys like them have a tendency to just completely collapse in their early 30s.
    2008-11-12 10:08:57
    39.   cargill06
    Dunn had a .898 OPS with his BABIP about 30 points below his norm last year. He's basically a lock to OPS .900+ the next two years. I would be far from upset if we don't sign Manny and get a cheaper done. Now, if Ned belives Dunn is good is a seperate debate.
    2008-11-12 10:09:44
    40.   cargill06
    I would be far from upset if we don't sign Manny and get a cheaper done.

    Should be Dunn

    2008-11-12 10:10:04
    41.   D4P
    Looks like the Holliday deal is of the done variety.
    2008-11-12 10:10:40
    42.   regfairfield
    Who's older Dunn, or Ryan Howard?

    The answer may surprise you.

    2008-11-12 10:11:29
    43.   regfairfield
    41 Still Gonzalez, Street and Smith for Holliday?
    2008-11-12 10:12:05
    44.   cargill06
    42 Well, since I'm supposed to be surprised I'd say Howard. But he was drafted at 22 I think and spent 3 or 4 years in the minors.
    2008-11-12 10:12:15
    45.   Eric Stephen
    The answer doesn't surprise me at all, since Dunn is actually older.

    The fact that Dunn is only 10 days older is shocking to me though.

    2008-11-12 10:12:22
    46.   savvyjr
    Interesting article on this morning, pointing out the downsizing occuring in the NL West thus far (Peavy, Holliday, etc.). All things considered, I think Manny talks might go sour here real soon, and the Dodgers move forward with much more affordable acquisitions, figuring that it won't take a Manny Ramirez in their lineup to win the West.
    2008-11-12 10:13:28
    47.   Eric Stephen

    2008-11-12 10:13:39
    48.   cargill06
    Dunn is older by 10 days.
    2008-11-12 10:15:07
    49.   regfairfield
    That was so close to being an interesting fact.
    2008-11-12 10:18:11
    50.   cargill06
    49 He's older than Pujols, that could be your interesting fact.
    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2008-11-12 10:19:29
    51.   regfairfield
    If the Giants go out and buy themselves a middle infield this offseason and we don't get a marquee free agent, they might have a shot at winning the division.

    What does that say about the state of the NL West?

    2008-11-12 10:21:50
    52.   savvyjr
    The Giants would be a scary team if they add a little offense. Their #1/2's are tough, and their bullpen is pretty good as well.
    2008-11-12 10:23:40
    53.   arborial
    36 adult diapers are great for preventing "leaking" maybe the front office should give them a try :)
    2008-11-12 10:24:45
    54.   cargill06
    51 I can't see it, their pythag. record last year was 68-94 and Durham gave them a 111 OPS+ for 87 games. I don't think a middle infield upgrade can improve them 15 or 20 wins.
    2008-11-12 10:30:15
    55.   regfairfield
    54 Assuming the Giants do the smart thing is always a stretch, but they make more improvements over that. Going from a Bowker/Durham/Vizquel/Castillo infield to Ishikawa/Hudson/Furcal/Sandoval is a massive improvement offensively, and it probably helps a little defensively too.

    They still need some luck like hitting the middle reliever lottery, but the Giants have the resources to get right back in to a really bad division.

    2008-11-12 10:30:43
    56.   PalmdaleSteve1
    Parking Lot Frank has a plan, just gotta get Bud to sign off on it, the plan is MannyMarketing

    What is MannyMaketing you ask?

    Just picture Manny with a "Free Credit Report.Com" logo on his back.

    or maybe

    "Pink's Hot Dogs"

    Splashed in a tasteful Hot Pink lettering on the Manny's back.

    Frank, you Scott and Bud need to get this deal done, MannyMarketing will 'GeterDone. 5 Years, 6, heck make it 10 years, everyone wins with MannyMarketing.

    2008-11-12 10:34:16
    57.   cargill06
    55 Sandoval may have the worst walk rate in the majors next year, hopefully.
    2008-11-12 10:34:46
    58.   JoeyP
    Giants would be smart to go after CC. I see their offense being bad no matter what, but a staff of CC/Linecum/Cain could win quite a few games.

    This was brought up before but I'm not sure why the D-Rays dont get involved in the Jake Peavy sweepstakes. They can beat the Braves offer, and a rotation of Peavy/Kazmir/Price/Shields/Garza would be unreal.

    2008-11-12 10:36:00
    59.   JRSarno
    0 - I agree, Jon. However, if Cinderella's step-sister looks like this, then the whole theory is fallacious:

    2008-11-12 10:37:47
    60.   regfairfield
    57 Probably, but he's replacing Jose Castillo so I don't think they'd notice the difference.

    The Giants gave at least 100 at bats to guys with these OPS+es: 84, 75, 46, 78, 82, 35, 66. That's over 1000 plate appearances given to dead weight. If they get rid of all that, which they're capable of, they can see a huge improvement.

    2008-11-12 10:40:08
    61.   Eric Stephen
    They don't want Peavy for the same reason they aren't in a market for any free agent pitchers: money.

    Peavy is guaranteed $60m over the next 4 years.

    Peavy's relatively low $8m price tag in 2009 makes it tempting to "go for it" in 2009, but they are building for a longer-term run and they probably figure the prospects they get by trading him next winter are not the caliber of the prospects they would have to give up this winter.

    It is an intriguing thought, though. That rotation would be ridiculous.

    2008-11-12 11:02:18
    62.   Harold M Johnson
    Sandoval's a beast, I think he's going to have an awesome rookie year.

    I think the Dodgers will def. sign Manny for 3 years.

    2008-11-12 11:05:02
    63.   Eric Stephen
    It takes 130 AB to exhaust rookie status (for some reason MLB does not use PA). Sandoval had 145 AB last season, so he technically won't be a rookie in 2009.

    Who knows, though, he might still get a few votes for ROY. :)

    2008-11-12 11:06:54
    64.   Eric Stephen
    Joe Torre finished a distant 4th in NL Manager of the Year.
    2008-11-12 11:08:24
    65.   Eric Stephen
    Dale Sveum parlayed a 7-5 record in 12 games into a single 3rd place vote for MOY.

    Yet another BBWAA writer that should be stripped of voting rights.

    2008-11-12 11:12:05
    66.   SG6
    Two things worry me:
    1 - Manny signs without a counter opportunity from Boras (see Beltre, Adrian)

    2 - Another club offers Manny say 4/$100, and Boras insinuates he won't take just a slightly better offer to Manny, it's got to be a lot better (see Pierre, Juan).

    My question is this: Is an agent duty bound to relay all offers to their client?

    I ask because there was an impression that Ned had to substantially upgrade the SF offer on the table to Juan Pierre (3 years / $27 million or so). This implies that if Ned offered 3 years / $30 million, Juan's agent would not have relayed this offer to Juan. Hence, Ned's offer of 5/$46.

    2008-11-12 11:22:56
    67.   Tripon
    It doesn't appear likely that one of those pieces will be another outfielder. Ned said he is comfortable with the outfield quartet of Ethier, Jones, Kemp and Pierre if Manny ends up signing elsewhere. - Tony Jackson.

    Dude, that is so not comfortable.

    2008-11-12 11:23:47
    68.   cargill06
    67 I'm queezy, could you link that?
    2008-11-12 11:27:41
    69.   cargill06
    67 Nevermind.
    2008-11-12 11:27:55
    70.   Tripon

    Tony Jackson just posted that on his blog.

    2008-11-12 11:44:06
    71.   Esquinazo
    Appropos of nothing, except that it did make me pop Ry Cooder's Chavez Ravine album (which I love) into the CD player:

    2008-11-12 11:44:49
    72.   kinbote
    Is there any chance C.C. gets 8y/$200 mil? I ask because if Big Frank is going against Little Hank in an all-or-nothing ace pursuit, this could get real real pricey.
    2008-11-12 11:45:34
    73.   blue22
    67 - My rose-colored glasses interpretation of that blurb: Ned is playing hard-to-get Manny/Boras and/or trying to sustain any semblance of trade value for Pierre (or less likely, Andruw).

    Unless he's on order to reduce/sustain payroll, I'm highly skeptical he's comfortable with that OF. He may have no real choice in the matter, which is the more likely explanation if he really means it, but I don't think "comfortable" is an accurate description.

    2008-11-12 11:48:46
    74.   cargill06
    Reading the organizational report, I've never heard of Victor Garate, but 11.6 K/9IP last year is impressive. Somebody tell me something about him. Why did Houston let him go?
    2008-11-12 11:51:45
    75.   Louis in SF

    The issue of what or when makes a player not go back to his team for a final offer, or if an agent allows this has always been for me the most interesting question. I think in the Manny situation it is in their best interest to go back to the Dodgers to get a larger offer since the "fit" between the Dodgers and Manny seems to be pretty good. I do wonder if Manny has told Boras, "I want the largest and longest contract, or if there is any other requirements that Manny has given Boras a list of teams he wants to play for."

    2008-11-12 11:53:49
    76.   El Lay Dave
    74 He's Toy Cannon's sleeper for 2009.
    2008-11-12 11:54:33
    77.   Kevin Lewis
    I just hope Manny didn't eat at Conrad's over at Lake and Walnut. That might mean he is not coming back
    2008-11-12 11:55:29
    78.   Tripon
    Wolf, 32, tossed 190.1 innings of 4.30 ball for the Padres and Astros this year. According to Ken Rosenthal, at least six other teams have expressed in Wolf already. He could pull in a three-year deal north of $30MM.

    Dude, this market is out of whack.

    2008-11-12 11:56:47
    79.   blue22
    75 - I want the largest and longest contract

    It seems to that this is the most fundamental requirement for choosing Boras as your agent (or perhaps for him choosing you).

    2008-11-12 11:59:30
    80.   cargill06
    78 That's about the going rate for your FA veteren crappy pitcher.
    2008-11-12 11:59:40
    81.   Dodgers49
    Young Dodgers making an impact

    >> Before the 2008 season began, took an in-depth look at every big league team's Minor League system. Now it's time to recap and analyze all 30 organizations, from top prospects to the recent Draft class. <<

    2008-11-12 12:02:37
    82.   Tripon
    80 That's why the system is whacked. Imagine if Kuroda just signed a one year deal, and wanted to be a FA in this climate. He'd get a 5 year/$65 million deal from someone.
    2008-11-12 12:03:01
    83.   Kevin Lewis

    And that is why I hope my son is a lefty.

    2008-11-12 12:04:54
    84.   OhioBlues12
    73 - I have to agree. That is all posturing. After seeing the offense pre-Manny last year and what Jones did specifically, there is no way he is comfortable with that. Now this is not to say that he should be falling over himself to sign Manny, but if Manny is not back then Ned should be pretty nervous with the OF as is.
    2008-11-12 12:07:16
    85.   cargill06
    82 Barring injury that Kuroda contract will probably be the best Colletti move. 3 years of 114-122 ERA+ for I think 12 a year. Very well done Ned.
    2008-11-12 12:13:09
    86.   JoeyP
    Sandoval may have the worst walk rate in the majors next year, hopefully

    4 bbs in 145 MLB abs last year. Yeah, thats not good.

    He'll be 22yrs old next year so he's got room to improve, although nothing in his minor league past suggest he'll learn plate discipline.

    Ishikawa should give the Giants some James Loney-type production, which is at least better than what they got from Bowker.

    2008-11-12 12:17:28
    87.   JoeyP
    85--Health/age is probably the main concern with Kuroda. He'll be 34yrs old next year. If Kuroda can keep his HR rate down (just 0.64 in 2008), he should stay effective. However, his K rate isnt very good and if he loses the skill of not giving up the HR, he becomes Brad Penny.
    2008-11-12 12:17:54
    88.   blue22
    86 - What's Sandoval's position though? Third would be an adventure for him. Maybe they should trade Molina and have him catch fulltime. It would seem that a bad defensive catcher does a lot less damage than a bad 3B.
    2008-11-12 12:19:52
    89.   dzzrtRatt
    0 Did Boras actually call the Dodgers' offer to Manny "insulting?"

    Of course he's going to call it inadequate, and he's arguing for more years using Barry Bonds as a comparison (flawed, because a juicer can have a longer career than a natural). But I hadn't picked up on any rancor yet. Did I miss something?

    For what it's worth, I don't see the Dodger offer being topped by a lot unless the Yankees get into it. The idea that Bowden would go all out to get Ramirez for a team that can't even get a decent TV deal seems crazy. And why would Ramirez want to play for a rebuilding team that will probably be pretty lousy for a couple more years?

    Dunn's presence on the market also dilutes attention on Ramirez -- a cheaper, younger, credible alternative, not a HOF player, but a good hitter entering his prime. No team is going to make a do or die offer to Manny while Dunn is still out there.

    2008-11-12 12:19:57
    90.   Kevin Lewis
    Has anyone completed one of those offers to receive a free laptop? You know, where you sign up for Blockbuster and some other offer, and they send you the computer? If it is legitimate, then why doesn't everyone do it. It has to be way cheaper than buying a new computer.
    2008-11-12 12:21:09
    91.   cargill06
    87 Kuroda's GB rate this year is already higher than Brad Penny's ever had. Hopefully, his skills won't deminish that much in the next 20 months. He's always been a control pitcher, whereas Penny hasn't.
    2008-11-12 12:27:26
    92.   silverwidow
    Hopefully Tony Delmonico learns how to catch soon. He could make a Santana-like impact by 2010.
    2008-11-12 12:29:37
    93.   cargill06
    92 And get traded for a fringe veteren?
    2008-11-12 12:29:52
    94.   Marty
    77 That is one bad restaurant. The last time I was there, probably 20 years ago, I ordered a pattymelt and it came on un-grilled white bread.
    2008-11-12 12:31:20
    95.   Harold M Johnson
    I noticed that of the top 10 games pitched this year by NL Pitchers, 2 of them were Kuroda's. So far, he's been the best free agent signing in Ned's Dodger history.
    2008-11-12 12:35:41
    96.   Jon Weisman
    89 - No, Boras didn't call it insulting. My post is directed at the numerous observers I've seen do so.
    2008-11-12 12:38:28
    97.   silverwidow
    Logan White said he'd put his reputation on the line that Kuroda was legit. Bold move, but he was right as usual.
    2008-11-12 12:39:16
    98.   ToyCannon
    The problem with Garate at this point is that he is old for his league. He dominated Low A but that is a pitching league. He did okay in the Cal league but got lit up once or twice. While with the Astro's he always had a good K/BB ratio with excellent dominance until 2007 when something went wrong.
    We picked him up in the minor league draft and maybe he will pan out as a Loogy.
    2008-11-12 12:43:22
    99.   ToyCannon
    I don't think I called the offer insulting but I am part of the group who think it is strictly a PR offer and that they knew he wouldn't accept it. While I think it is a PR offer I think it is exactly the kind of offer they should have made.
    Maybe Boras has blown this one but he was dead on with JD Drew and I expect Manny will get at least his 4 year deal from someone.

    Given the budget they pretty much have to go that route if they don't sign Manny. It would basically be the same configuration we had last spring except we know that Ethier and Kemp are the givens this time.

    2008-11-12 12:45:01
    100.   Eric Stephen
    Is Garate's last name pronounced like karate, or like Tony the Tiger describes how things taste?
    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2008-11-12 12:45:21
    101.   oshea2002
    I think people have conflated insulting with "not going to get it done." I'd imagine clubs will trump this offer. Insulting would be asking him to play for free, at least to Manny. Maybe it's insulting to the fans to throw this out as a PR move and expect them to think this is the front office doing their best, but it's clearly not insulting to Manny. And nothing should be insulting to Boras.
    2008-11-12 13:04:54
    102.   El Lay Dave
    100 In Venezuela where he's from, likely the former. The G/Karate Kid has a nice ring to it, if it doesn't start some sort of culture war.
    2008-11-12 13:13:35
    103.   Gen3Blue
    Boras can't be insulted! For various reasons.
    2008-11-12 13:15:12
    104.   Eric Stephen
    I hope he does better as a Dodger than the last guy who came to the plate to "You're the best...around!" :)
    2008-11-12 13:19:04
    105.   KG16
    54 - I really don't think that the NL West is all that bad. Colorado and Arizona got hit with key injuries that lasted a good chunk of the season. The Dodgers couldn't commit to their two best outfielders, had their best hitter go down for five months, and learned what happens when you play a 40 year old at second base. San Diego collapsed a year earlier than I thought they would. And the Giants have great young pitching that will keep them in a lot of games.

    there's parity in the division, but i don't think that makes it bad. granted, no one did terribly well outside the division...

    It's not like the NL Central that has the Reds, Cards, and Pirates giving everyone an extra 15 wins. Or the AL West, with three teams that just ceded the division to the Angels.

    2008-11-12 13:21:14
    106.   scareduck
    99 - I don't think I called the offer insulting but I am part of the group who think it is strictly a PR offer and that they knew he wouldn't accept it. While I think it is a PR offer I think it is exactly the kind of offer they should have made.

    Probably so. There was no way that Boras was going to accept ANY offer made during the exclusive negotiation window, all you're doing is setting the floor for when he finally does make it to the larger market, as Boras clients always do. Frankly, you don't want to make that floor price very high at all.

    2008-11-12 13:21:23
    107.   KG16
    96 - what's funny is that starting with a low ball offer (or absurdly high offer) is standard operating procedure in negotiations. Very few people have the ability/confidence/skill to make a best/last/final offer as an opening offer.
    2008-11-12 13:25:05
    108.   Sam DC
    100 Well asked!

    And it's Top Chef night.

    2008-11-12 13:30:45
    109.   Eric Stephen
    I forgot about Top Chef tonight! I hope I have time to check my DVR before it is set to record, but that is great news.
    2008-11-12 13:33:00
    110.   Tripon
    109 Its a 75 minute ep, so make sure you set it to end around 11:15 or 11:30.

    Or you can do what I do, and er, illegally download it. >> <<

    2008-11-12 13:35:31
    111.   Eric Stephen
    Damaso Marte just signed a 3/$12m contract with the Yankees.

    Somewhere Joe Beimel just opened a bottle of bubbly.

    2008-11-12 13:36:01
    112.   fanerman
    111 Hopefully he didn't hurt his pitching hand doing so.
    2008-11-12 13:37:12
    113.   Eric Stephen
    My DVR box from Time Warner no longer allows me to create manual recordings, but I can choose to extend the start and end times of a show. If it is listed in the guide as a 75-minute show it should be covered, but I will double check.
    2008-11-12 13:42:24
    114.   blue22
    90 - You usually have to sign up for something much more substantial than a Blockbuster trial, and may end up costing you $100's of dollars by the time you've earned your "free" laptop. Most of them are pretty legit though, but will probably send you cash value rather than the hardware.
    2008-11-12 14:03:47
    115.   Tripon
    "Everything started one day that I told Manny, 'Hey look, look at the numbers that you have put up your whole career, and you have never been able to win an MVP, there's a reason why'. And the media is our family. The media, sometimes you gonna find one or two guys that they're gonna screw things up, try to get people's attention writing bad things, but not everybody's the same way. You gotta understand that and you can blame everybody for somebody that just makes a mistake. It doesn't work like that . . . pull yourself together and start getting connected with the media because that's how you express your feelings and people get to know more and Manny's good things, that people don't know about Manny. And he agreed with me."

    Guess Manny took Ortiz' words to heart, with T.J. Simers.

    2008-11-12 14:06:16
    116.   regfairfield
    Honest question, has Manny ever deserved an MVP?
    2008-11-12 14:08:05
    117.   Tripon

    Manny finished 6th in 2001. Giambi wins MVP that year.

    2008-11-12 14:10:28
    118.   regfairfield
    117 Giambi put up almost the same numbers in an extreme pitchers park. He deserved it.
    2008-11-12 14:10:38
    119.   Eric Stephen
    Maybe 1999, although I would have probably given it to Pedro.
    2008-11-12 14:12:41
    120.   Tripon
    188 The use of Steroids would negate that disadvantage.
    2008-11-12 14:13:24
    121.   regfairfield
    120 Fair enough, but the writers couldn't have used that at the time.
    2008-11-12 14:29:14
    122.   D4P
    Man, Padre fans are sure upset about losing Hoffman. I was actually surprised that his stats the past few years were as good as they were, given that it seemed like he got rocked every time I paid attention to him.
    2008-11-12 14:29:57
    123.   RELX
    Unhappiness with "Dodgertown":

    2008-11-12 14:32:16
    124.   Dodgers49
    Manny Ramirez's agent ready for 'serious offers'

    >> "Beginning Friday, I will begin, for the first time, taking serious offers," said Scott Boras, who represents Ramirez.

    Though Boras declined to comment on the Dodgers' offer, it appears that he doesn't think it falls in that category. <<

    2008-11-12 14:35:49
    125.   D4P
    I don't see why GMs let Boras get away with this crap.

    Is it too much to ask for GMs to respond by saying that they hope Manny and his agent start publicizing reasonable contract demands in the near future?

    2008-11-12 14:36:23
    126.   SG6
    Since the price of gas has dropped way down, I wonder if Manny will lower his price?

    (recall he said: "Gas is up and so am I" at the conclusion of the season when asked about his contract)

    2008-11-12 14:39:15
    127.   cargill06
    125 The more amazing thing is that Boras still uses, "X player pays for himself." That means no owner has actually said to him, "OK, Scott please explain how that works because the numbers don't add up in my head."
    2008-11-12 14:39:40
    128.   fanerman
    124 Yeah that's pretty lame. While I think the whole publicizing of the offer was a PR stunt, the offer itself seems reasonable for an initial offer. I hope GM's don't offer much more than what the Dodgers are offering.
    2008-11-12 14:41:13
    129.   Jon Weisman
    127 - You're conflating what's said publicly with what's said privately. If one owner challenged him on that point, does that mean Boras would stop making it in public?
    2008-11-12 14:41:28
    130.   regfairfield
    What was the last Boras client that actually got way more than he deserved (for convenience, let's ignore Andruw Jones).
    2008-11-12 14:42:29
    131.   cargill06
    I wouldn't be worried about the whole Manny thing if I knew Ned would sign Dunn if he can't get a deal done. The difference between Dunn and Manny would have to be in the 0.5-1.5 win range right?
    2008-11-12 14:44:35
    132.   fanerman
    130 Zito?
    2008-11-12 14:46:06
    133.   Jon Weisman
    123 - And still, the disconnect, blaming the Dodgers for something they didn't initiate.
    2008-11-12 14:46:49
    134.   regfairfield
    132 Well, there goes that argument.

    It seems like recently Boras has been asking the world for Jeff Weaver and Kyle Lohse and gotten nothing of it. For the most part the Boras clients that are getting paid deserve it.

    2008-11-12 14:57:12
    135.   ToyCannon
    I'm fairly certain I could name at least 10 with a little investigation.

    He had a brutal start but was awesome after June 29th. That change up of his might last longer then Broxton's fastball.

    2008-11-12 15:03:10
    136.   regfairfield
    The only Boras client I can see out there that's being grossly overpaid is Zito.
    2008-11-12 15:08:30
    137.   cargill06
    60 We gave 90+ AB's to the following OPS' 91,62,73,34,75,29,12. That's 1,584 AB's of our own dead weight.
    2008-11-12 15:10:04
    138.   trainwreck
    -Beltre maybe or at least at the time.
    -Varitek probably will
    -Hochevar ; )
    2008-11-12 15:11:40
    139.   regfairfield
    138 I'll give you Washburn but those other contracts didn't seem like massive overpays when they were signed.
    2008-11-12 15:13:57
    140.   trainwreck
    Gagne got $10 million!!
    2008-11-12 15:14:55
    141.   regfairfield
    140 For one year, and a lot of people said it was a decent move.
    2008-11-12 15:16:15
    142.   Tripon
    Would it be that much of a crime if the Dodgers stay out of the 2008 FA market, so even more money is dropped from the payroll in 2009? Where we are finally we get rid of Schimdt and Jones' contract?
    2008-11-12 15:18:05
    143.   trainwreck
    Is the 2009 market good? I remember Lackey will be a free agent.
    2008-11-12 15:20:31
    144.   El Lay Dave
    133 The Dodgers may not have initiated, but when they came along these people on their path to L.A., were they the Good Samaritans? (I truly mean that as a question; I don't know exactly what the O'Malleys did or didn't do regarding the remaining residents.)
    2008-11-12 15:22:52
    145.   scareduck
    109 , 113 , etc. - I made a brief mention of some of the problems we've had with Time Warner's DVR in our new house on my blog Monday. Yesterday, I got a comment by e-mail from someone who is a regional trainer for Time Warner, and on his request, I detailed the many problems I have. Today, my wife got a phone call from a vice president at TW. So we shall see how this works.
    2008-11-12 15:23:12
    146.   Tripon
    143 Beltre, Holliday, Jason Bay, Vladimir Guerrero leads the class for hitters. For Pitchers, Lee(who I think had a fluke year for 2008,) Harden, Lackey, Webb leader the 2009 FA class for pitchers.

    Barring any extensions, etc.

    Huh, actually. I really hope the Dodgers sign C.C. next year since other than Webb, and maybe Lackey, I am scared of that FA pitching after 2009.

    2008-11-12 15:23:56
    147.   Eric Stephen
    Holliday, Beltre, Lackey, Bedard, Harden, Brian Roberts, Tejada
    2008-11-12 15:24:45
    148.   El Lay Dave
    143 Matt Holliday, Jason Bay, Brian Roberts, Adrian Beltre.

    Andruw Jones! Jason Schmidt!

    2008-11-12 15:27:48
    149.   LogikReader
    143 , 148

    JD Drew?

    2008-11-12 15:27:58
    150.   ToyCannon
    If you are going to argue that 10 Million for Gagne was a decent value then I won't waste my time.
    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2008-11-12 15:28:17
    151.   El Lay Dave
    146 Cleveland holds an option on Lee though ($8M club option/$1M buyout), so if he's still good, he shouldn't be available.

    Vlad will be useless to the Dodgers at that point though, since he'll be mostly a DH.

    2008-11-12 15:29:40
    152.   ToyCannon
    I saw those comments. I have TW but have been looking at AT$T Universe and Verison Fios. I work within a block of TW in Chatsworth. The number of vans they have is astonishing.
    2008-11-12 15:29:46
    153.   cargill06
    148 I guess Brian Roberts is the only attractive hitter if we don't sign, Furcal/Hudson this off season. Hopefully by 2010, we'd either have Manny/Dunn roaming LF or Lambo will be ready.
    2008-11-12 15:31:54
    154.   El Lay Dave
    I thought Canuck Dodger made a strong case at the end of the last thread for forgetting about Manny and going all-in for C. C. I'm certainly having trouble coming up with counterarguments.

    comment 268:

    2008-11-12 15:35:07
    155.   fanerman
    154 I've always been in the C.C. boat.
    2008-11-12 15:35:52
    156.   Kevin Lewis

    I was convinced too.

    2008-11-12 15:35:56
    157.   Tripon
    Is that C.C. boat the Queen Mary?

    I suppose the Andruw Jones boat is the Titanic. Or is that Zito?

    2008-11-12 15:36:26
    158.   El Lay Dave
    147 The unusual slope change in Tejada's age metric will be make him less attractive than he might otherwise have been.
    2008-11-12 15:37:18
    159.   El Lay Dave
    157 I suppose the Andruw Jones boat is the Titanic. Or is that Zito?

    Both, given that they're sunk costs. {cue rimshot}

    2008-11-12 15:38:09
    160.   El Lay Dave
    156 how did the softball game a few weeks back go?
    2008-11-12 15:38:39
    161.   Jon Weisman
    144 - In all seriousness, I've devoted a chunk of my book to this. But the short answer is, by the time the Dodgers got involved, this was 99 percent a fait accompli. The land was almost completely vacated by 1957, and there was really no going back. If the Dodgers hadn't come, the city wasn't going to just hand the land back to Chavez Ravine's old residents. And if Chavez Ravine hadn't been available, the Dodgers could have been persuaded to consider other sites.

    It's a black mark on the history of the city, but there's really almost nothing the Dodgers could have done.

    2008-11-12 15:39:23
    162.   Tripon
    The big prize in the 2010 FA class is Albert Pujols. DUNN DUNN DUNN.
    2008-11-12 15:40:50
    163.   Eric Stephen
    Yeah, his name just stood out to me. I completely missed Bay and Vlad on that list, too. All in all, not my best post.
    2008-11-12 15:41:07
    164.   Jon Weisman
    154 - I'm not necessarily making this counterargument, but the main one would be that if the Dodgers could live without Jones and Pierre in their starting lineup for the second half of 2008, why couldn't they do so in 2009? In which case, Manny fits just fine.
    2008-11-12 15:41:55
    165.   Eric Stephen
    Cardinals hold an option for 2011. He won't be a free agent until the 2012 class (after 2011 season).
    2008-11-12 15:42:30
    166.   trainwreck
    CC is going to get a long and expensive contract, which is problematic when he is overweight and his joints start to have issues.

    That would be my counterargument.

    If you want to give him a shorter deal than other teams for more money, then I am all for it.

    2008-11-12 15:43:57
    167.   Bob Timmermann
    The deed for the property when it was returned to the City of L.A. from the L.A. City Housing Authority (a state agency) had a covenant that prevented houses from being erected on the property. The property had to be put to a "public use." What constituted a "public use" was why the deal had to go on the ballot and why it had to eventually be litigated in the courts.

    There were some holdouts who hadn't taken the eminent buyout. So O'Malley had to buy them out. They made out pretty well.

    I do not know if the property still has a covenant on it that would prevent the McCourts from putting up condos in the parking lot if they so chose.

    2008-11-12 15:44:51
    168.   Marty
    RIP Mitch Mitchell
    2008-11-12 15:46:05
    169.   cargill06
    165 If he were a FA this year I'd be all for giving him a 4 year 400 million dollar contract.
    2008-11-12 15:48:09
    170.   Kevin Lewis

    As far as I know, it went well, but I missed it due to food poisoning.

    2008-11-12 15:55:35
    171.   Bob Timmermann
    And Billy Cox wins the Jimi Hendrix Experience Tonteen.
    2008-11-12 15:57:14
    172.   cargill06
    171 There are a lot of comments that go over my head when reading these threads, but that one boarded a commercial airliner.
    2008-11-12 16:02:04
    173.   ToyCannon
    They are under pressure to bring back Manny. If they don't I don't think they will feel they are under any pressure to bring in a LF. Strictly my opinion but the only reason Pierre was sitting was because Manny was in front of him. I have never gotten the impression that the Dodgers including Joe Torre felt that Juan Pierre was not a starting outfielder. Manny fell into their laps, otherwise Juan is playing everyday the 2nd half of 2008.
    2008-11-12 16:07:13
    174.   ToyCannon
    CC is the new Minotaur for me. I have zero faith that Frank can reel that prize fish in.
    2008-11-12 16:07:17
    175.   trainwreck
    Yeah, on Tony Jackson's blog, Ned says he would be fine with Kemp, Ethier, Pierre, and Jones.

    Of course, he could be lying, but I do not think he is.

    2008-11-12 16:23:35
    176.   skybluestoday
    Re: Mitch Mitchell.

    Fare thee well, man. 62 is waaaaay too young. You were an absolutely phenomenal musician and a solid citizen. I can't quite imagine that you're not there now. Guess I'd better get used to it.

    M. Timmermann -- I, for one, am really glad that Billy Cox is still drawing breath and playing music. My favorite Hendrix music is the stuff he was working on right before he died, with both Cox and Mitchell.

    2008-11-12 16:28:36
    177.   schoffle

    Seems to me that given C.C.'s physical stature a GM would be wise to try and sign him to a deal with one or two player options (like Depo gave JD). Perhaps a 6 year deal (25 per) with options after the 2nd and 4th year. Giving C.C. the best of both worlds in terms of a secure long term deal (6 years) plus the benefits of a short term deal should be very attractive to top free agent.

    Sure the GM would take some heat from the fans when the reigning CY Young opts out in 2 years, but who the hell wouldn't want C.C. for the next 2 years?

    2008-11-12 16:34:59
    178.   skybluestoday
    Astonishing Mitch Mitchell/Jimi Hendrix collaborations:

    "I Don't Live Today"
    "Third Stone from the Sun"
    "Axis: Bold as Love"
    "Little Miss Lover"
    "Gypsy Eyes"
    The 'Aquatic Suite' from the 'Electric Ladyland' LP
    Any live version of "Red House"
    'First Rays of the New Rising Sun' tracks: "Night Bird Flying," "In From the Storm," "Jam Back at the House"

    Man, this cuts deep. My favorite musician's ideal collaborator has been yanked away out of nowhere.

    I hope they're jamming right now. (What's that old line from The Simpsons ? -- Ben Franklin scoring a knock-hockey goal in heaven and saying "That's game, Hendrix.")

    2008-11-12 16:35:43
    179.   Jim Hitchcock
    Wow, I did not know Noel Redding died in '03.
    2008-11-12 16:37:34
    180.   Daniel Zappala
    7 Yet again, the Angels quietly showed yesterday why Moreno is a better owner than McCourt by not even offering Teixeira anything during their negotiating window. They knew that Boras would simply take it to the Yankees and get them to improve upon it.

    I don't know if this makes Moreno a better owner. There are different ways to negotiate, and perhaps Manny would have been insulted if the Dodgers didn't make any offer at all, or perhaps he would have had the impression the Dodgers didn't really want to retain him.

    What this does us prove the validity of Jon's point -- it would be stupid to try to make a high offer at this point.

    2008-11-12 16:49:18
    181.   Dodgers49
    Dodgers waiting to hear from Manny

    >> With the exclusive negotiating window for clubs and their free agents closing Thursday night, Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti on Wednesday said Manny Ramirez still has not responded to the initial offer he delivered last week to agent Scott Boras.

    "I have not heard back," he said. "I need to hear their reaction to the offer." <<

    ## Interviewed on Los Angeles radio station KLAC-AM earlier Wednesday, Colletti said the Dodgers' offer to Ramirez was "a great starting point that showed a strong commitment to him." ##

    2008-11-12 16:56:32
    182.   bhsportsguy
    You wonder if the Rockies would have taken Andy LaRoche and Byron Morris for Matt Holliday back at the trade deadline?
    2008-11-12 17:02:08
    183.   DBrim
    Skip Manny, get CC, get Holliday next year (with Jones and Schmidt off the books, we'll have the money). Seems easy enough to me, but what do I know?
    2008-11-12 17:06:31
    184.   regfairfield
    It's pretty easy to GM when you don't have to worry about competing offers from other teams.
    2008-11-12 17:07:09
    185.   Daniel Zappala
    154 My main counterargument is that the Dodgers will be able to deal one of Jones/Pierre once they treat them as a sunk cost and get only pennies in return. That eliminates the problem of them both sitting on the bench -- it will be just one of them.

    That said, I'm OK with a pitching-and-defense solution that revolves around CC, provided the Dodgers do find a decent solution for the infield.

    2008-11-12 17:10:18
    186.   scareduck
    167 - AFAIK the issue with putting up condos in the Dodger Stadium parking lot would be zoning.
    2008-11-12 17:18:47
    187.   LAT
    Canuck Dodger's well written post about Manny is sound and makes perfect sense. But I don't care. I don't want to live through 2003 again. I am so tired of pitching and defense. Going out to the stadium 20 times a year and watching a bunch of 2-1 games, even if they win, is no fun. I want to see people hit the ball hard. I want to see someone in the on deck circle who gets me to stand up with anticipation. It doesn't have to be Manny per say but I want a masher, even if its not in my best long term interest.
    2008-11-12 17:22:50
    188.   bhsportsguy
    With Pablo Ozuna finally filing for free agency, the Dodgers have only 32 players on their 40-man roster.

    The deadline to submit their reserve lists for Rule V draft purposes is a week from tomorrow (11/20).

    Its doubtful the Dodgers will have a full roster by that date.

    2008-11-12 17:23:37
    189.   68elcamino427
    There are many sound reasons for not signing Manny.
    However Manny has shown everyone why he should be back.
    Mr. Ultimo is a hitting machine.
    I would love to watch him play for three more years ... and I will ... wherever he is playing:)
    2008-11-12 17:23:44
    190.   Jim Hitchcock
    187 Yes.
    2008-11-12 17:27:40
    191.   Zak
    I heard Ned's interview today with the Loose Cannons. Seriously, Vic the Brick is a gigantic you-know-what. I can't refer to him as anything other than some sort of Rule 1 violation. The man is a travesty. He is worse than McCarver and Morgan combined. That is a lot of sucktitude. A lot. Anyway, glad to get that off my chest.

    Colletti in the interview did a fairly decent job. He definitely knows how to be a PR guy that's for sure. The morons at Loose Cannons did not ask him about any potential free agent signings including CC for which they should not be allowed to conduct any more interviews. All they went on about was resigning Manny. Colletti seemed committed to signing Manny... as long as it was a 2-3 year deal. To be honest, I am convinced that Ned does not really want to sign him, at least long term. But he was very gracious of Manny as a clubhouse presence and of course his performance. And he made a very good point that Jon has been making... no matter what offer they had made to Manny, Boras would not accept right now and will come back with a bigger counter-offer. So there is no point in giving him your best offer on November 1.

    2008-11-12 17:28:45
    192.   Bob Timmermann
    In 1965, people came to Dodger Stadium and hoped to see a 2-1 game! And back then men were men!

    Except me, I was a fetus during that season.

    2008-11-12 17:29:02
    193.   Zak
    Oh, just one thing about Vic out of millions that stood out.. Ned, i want to commend you for bringing to the dodger fans, Casey Blake, Pablo Ozuna and Manyako. LOL. Pablo Ozuna. I laughed so hard.
    2008-11-12 17:30:36
    194.   regfairfield
    So you're saying that you're not feelin' Vic The Brick.
    2008-11-12 17:32:56
    195.   Zak
    194 Dude, I am definitely not feelin' Vic the Brick. I cannot think of another person in the world who can say the things he says with a straight face. He makes no sense. I used to listen to them and then stopped until recently when I am in my car around lunch time, I tune in and oh my god, the D will set you free.
    2008-11-12 17:34:34
    196.   CajunDodger
    Amen...I want to believe that Matt Kemp is the second coming of Carlos Beltran and that Loney will become a Derek Lee, but in the meantime I want someone who is fun to watch. This team is the very definition of competent...but I want more.
    2008-11-12 17:37:41
    197.   underdog
    He sounds like the second coming of Miguel Cabrera, in both good and bad ways (already with an expanding belly), but this could be one way to solve a lack of organizational depth at 3rd:

    "Dayan Viciedo, a 19-year-old third baseman, will trigger a bidding war after defecting from Cuba." See Yahoo Sports MLB home page for the rest for the story (TinyURL-ing Yahoo links don't work for some reason.)

    2008-11-12 17:40:40
    198.   Tripon
    Could be that Matt Kemp is the first coming of Matt Kemp, and James Loney is James Loney.
    2008-11-12 17:43:30
    199.   Zak
    187 I love Manny and really want him in our team. But I understand that his will not be a fun contract after 2010 and maybe league average around 2011. A 5-6 year deal would be ridiculously bad for the Dodgers.

    I think the Dodgers have made an obligatory offer expecting Manny to get a better offer from an AL team and move. If somehow he comes back to the Dodgers, it will be because there is no massive market for him.

    I agree with you though that ideally, I do not want a poor offensive team. Even the first four months of this season were hard sometimes. Problem is I do not like anybody in the FA market right now for the money they would want. Dodgers best hope is to trade for someone like Uggla and/or Beltre but I suspect the price would be too high. Plus, I'd rather see Ned make FA blunders than trade blunders.

    Sign CC and Raffy, trade for Uggla and we will play roulette with our outfield. Or hope that we can somehow get Manny for 3/75.

    2008-11-12 17:43:51
    200.   CajunDodger
    And that is fine, but my point is merely that I would like one offensive guy that moves the needle. I was simply talking about potential and not about expectation...
    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2008-11-12 18:00:06
    201.   Dodgers49
    187 It doesn't have to be Manny per say but I want a masher, even if its not in my best long term interest.

    I'm with you. :-) I know it puts me in the minority on this site but if I had a choice between signing Manny for 4 years or CC for 6 years I'd take Manny. Manny gets me excited for every single game. CC only pitches every 5th game. The last two months of the 2008 season was the most fun I've had as a Dodgers fan since "the Boys of Summer".

    2008-11-12 18:02:38
    202.   Eric Stephen
    194 ,195
    Even Bill Walton thinks Vic The Brick should dial down the hyperbole!
    2008-11-12 18:02:47
    203.   Gen3Blue
    199 By all means let Ned play with free agents and not with trades. He has spent 100 million and more and may get us someone exciting yet. However with the core approaching their prime, with a bit of luck developing pitchers, we could go for it all over the next several years, especially if he nets one or two good free agents.
    2008-11-12 18:08:06
    204.   Gen3Blue
    Looking at this thread, its kind of ironic that Ned got handed such a good system that he hasn't really screwed it up by mispending 100's of millions.
    2008-11-12 18:09:12
    205.   El Lay Dave
    161 More reason to look forward to the book! Thanks.

    167 Ah, your presentation is slowly coming back to me.....

    2008-11-12 18:11:10
    206.   El Lay Dave
    Every time I stumble across the Loose Cannons show, I have the same horrified reaction, "good Lord, this is the testosterone version of The View."
    2008-11-12 18:14:22
    207.   D4P
    On the second night of a road back-to-back, the Lakers lead the Hornets 51-30 at the half.
    2008-11-12 18:18:25
    208.   El Lay Dave
    Scott Boras is just today's old dope peddler who gave L.A. a little free sample of the ManRam to get us all excited, because he knew full well that today's excited faces would want to be tomorrow's clientele. That initial snort of Manny gave us a heady rush that we'd like to have again and again, and he might give it to us for another year, maybe two, but as time goes on, it will be harder and harder to keep getting that incredible buzz as Manny breaks down and becomes less potent. Nip this in the bud and break the addiction, three years tops, or no Manny!
    2008-11-12 18:28:15
    209.   Dodgers49
    Angels will let K-Rod go; Arte Moreno likes Manny Ramirez

    >> Angels owner indicates that Ramirez could be pursued if the team can't sign Teixeira. <<

    2008-11-12 18:30:13
    210.   dkminnick
    Back in the 80s at a fancy Sunset Strip restaurant, some friends and I were invited by mutual friends to join their table which included Mitch Mitchell. He was one of the only people at the table that I didn't know. Man, was I excited - Mitch Mitchell, fer God's sake! - and when introduced, I told him it was an honor to meet him. He was absolutely hammered and with spittle flying Rule One'd me in the worst possible way.

    We then sat there and drank for a couple of hours anyway. Thanks Mitch for all the great work, and thanks for a story that I love to tell to this day.

    2008-11-12 18:34:00
    211.   CajunDodger
    Now wouldn't that be quite the coup for the Angels...and Moreno would get to stick it to McCourt.
    2008-11-12 18:34:01
    212.   Dodgers49
    209 Since Boras has both of these guys wouldn't it be in Boras' best interest to make sure Teixeira signs with someone other than the Angels.
    2008-11-12 18:36:45
    213.   Dodgers49
    211 one hundred of a second. :-)
    2008-11-12 18:47:01
    214.   Tripon
    212 Doing so will get Boras into some hot water. Boras twists and bends the current rules until they mean little to nothing. He does not seek to break them entirely, to do so means a possible ban from baseball.
    2008-11-12 18:57:53
    215.   ToyCannon
    Lakers crushing a good team on the road. They are looking like the 1971-72 team when the 2nd unit got to play the whole 4th qtr after the starters decimated the other teams 1st unit.
    2008-11-12 19:23:09
    216.   ToyCannon
    Chris Paul almost makes me look silly with one heck of a run but Kobe drains the clutch 3 to put it on ice.
    2008-11-12 19:27:00
    217.   Dodgers49
    214 But didn't we see something similar when he had both Beltre and Drew and Beltre ended up in Seattle and there was some question about whether he gave the Dodgers a last opportunity to keep Beltre. Some have said it was in his best interest to move Beltre to Seattle because it ensured the Dodgers would bid on J.D. Drew.
    2008-11-12 19:34:28
    218.   Eric Stephen
    The Lakers will take a 9-0 record into Phoenix a week from tomorrow.
    2008-11-12 19:40:36
    219.   fanerman
    218 (knocks on wood)
    2008-11-12 19:44:25
    220.   LogikReader
    I still can't believe this team. I was so sure the Lakers would get pounded tonight by the Hornets, and yet they went up by as many as 23, and even withstood the tidal wave of doom.

    Even with all those Hornet runs, the Lakers held New Orleans to 86 points, on the second night of back to back games. I am really impressed by the Lakers so far.

    2008-11-12 19:57:27
    221.   scareduck
    192 - I was all of one and change.
    2008-11-12 19:59:04
    222.   Eric Stephen
    I'm in the same boat. I chalked up tonight as a potential loss, and they played great.

    Even though the expectations were high coming in, the Lakers are managing to exceed them thus far.

    (Also, sorry fanerman! Your knuckles deserve a break.)

    2008-11-12 20:00:21
    223.   Bob Hendley
    From SI - "Irish AD: Weis taking program in the right direction". In related news, B. Timmermann seen strewing rose petals at bottom of cliff.
    2008-11-12 20:10:56
    224.   Bob Timmermann
    Notre Dame doesn't have enough money to fire Weis.

    In this instance, he has a decided schematic advantage.

    2008-11-12 20:17:16
    225.   Bob Timmermann
    A Juan Pierre disciple at USC:

    No one expressed surprise over tailback Broderick Green's decision to transfer at the end of the semester.

    "After the Washington State game he had (121 yards) and then he didn't get any reps the following week (against Arizona), I don't know if he was salty about that or not," running backs coach Todd McNair said.

    2008-11-12 20:19:14
    226.   Sam DC
    Top Chef Review: I kept thinking I wasn't liking it until I realized that I was.
    2008-11-12 20:19:22
    227.   Eric Stephen
    It's always good to cut salt out of one's diet.
    2008-11-12 20:22:50
    228.   Eric Stephen
    The Dodgers aren't the only NL West team battling an agent in the press. Tim Sullivan has a pretty good recap of the Trevor Hoffman situation in the San Diego U-T:

    "Withdrawing a $4 million contract offer for Hoffman's 2009 services is a defensible decision when you consider: A) it had been on the table long enough to attract termites; B) Hoffman had neither consented to the proposal nor countered it; C) letting it sit creates a "contingent liability" (Alderson's term) in a marketplace too fluid to let offers stand indefinitely; and D) rescinding the offer now does not preclude a deal getting done later."

    2008-11-12 20:27:13
    229.   Eric Stephen
    McDonald in the bullpen? Why?

    Colletti said young internal pitching candidates McDonald, Scott Elbert and Eric Stults each could make the club with a good Spring Training.

    McDonald has been a starter, but his fastball gained life when he was moved to the bullpen during a September callup that carried into the playoffs. With the future of 39-year-old closer Takashi Saito uncertain after a serious elbow injury, McDonald might emerge as a setup man/insurance policy for young closer Jonathan Broxton.

    Elbert, healthy after shoulder surgery, could slide into free agent Joe Beimel's role as the second left-hander in the bullpen along with Hong-Chih Kuo.

    2008-11-12 20:29:17
    230.   Eric Stephen
    That link now points to a Manny article for some reason. The article that was on is now gone, hopefully temporarily.
    2008-11-12 20:30:14
    231.   Eric Stephen
    229 ,230
    Never mind, I'm an idiot. Here is the right link:

    2008-11-12 20:30:32
    232.   trainwreck
    I am going to chose to pretend that article does not exist.
    2008-11-12 20:31:38
    233.   trainwreck
    I am still pretending that article does not exist.
    2008-11-12 20:35:35
    234.   Eric Stephen
    I was this close to reaching Jon Heyman status!
    2008-11-12 20:40:12
    235.   trainwreck
    I just hope it is Gurnick blowing smoke.
    2008-11-12 20:41:40
    236.   Tripon
    I'm looking at the bright side, and taking that article to saying that Eric Stults has a chance to go long relief.

    As for McDonald being in the bullpen, unless you're making him a long relief man, whats the point? He's your fifth starter, treat him like one.

    2008-11-12 20:42:40
    237.   Tripon
    234 Heyman at least talks to the Hot Dog guy. Its Joel Sherman who just makes stuff up.
    2008-11-12 20:43:41
    238.   Tripon
    According to Scott Miller of, the Padres are expected to request Jake Peavy waive his no-trade clause to go to the Braves. The deal being discussed: Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton or Jo-Jo Reyes, and Blaine Boyer or one of two minor league southpaws. Miller says the Padres are leaning toward Morton and Boyer.

    I hope the Braves get him, just to end the Peavy talk.

    2008-11-12 20:46:01
    239.   Tripon
    According to Mark Gonzales of the Chicago Tribune, White Sox GM and other front office members are evaluating talent at the Arizona Fall League for a possible Jermaine Dye trade. Dye can block trades to six teams, but Williams has a short list of suitors for him. He is set to earn $11.5MM in '09 and has a $12MM mutual option for '10 with a $1MM buyout.

    If we can't get Manny, a Dye trade for Pierre would make me happy. We can just stick Dye in left field, and focus on signing C.C. and/or Furcal.

    2008-11-12 20:46:50
    240.   fordprefect
    Gotta love Tom Lehrer!
    2008-11-12 21:06:55
    241.   DBrim
    168 - Well, that sucks. I just saw him live three weeks ago, too.
    2008-11-12 21:20:59
    242.   Eric Stephen
    If the Padres acquire Escobar, I would bet Khalil Greene will also be traded. Greene might be on the block anyway.
    2008-11-12 21:26:16
    243.   Eric Stephen
    Andrew Lambo homered in the AFL today, his 7th dinger in 14 games.
    2008-11-12 21:28:10
    244.   Tripon
    243 Remember when Andrew Lambo was only hitting .350 with a .350 slugging percentage in the AFL?

    Yeah, I don't either.

    242 Considering the Padres sued Greene for 1/3 of his salary, I assume the Padres would want to move Green before spring training starts.

    2008-11-12 21:38:00
    245.   ToyCannon
    Lambo has one home run. What stat line are you looking at?
    On the plus side he has as many home runs as Matt Wieters.
    2008-11-12 21:38:52
    246.   Eric Stephen
    Chalk this up to things I would do for $1.2 million:

    2008-11-12 21:44:49
    247.   Eric Stephen
    I'm an idiot. Much like MVP voters, I was apparently fixated on the RBI total. It was at 6 before yesterday, so I added one thinking that was his HR total.
    2008-11-12 21:46:59
    248.   ToyCannon
    McDonald threw 140 innings in 2008. What would be a reasonable number that can be increased to in 2009? 180? 170?
    2008-11-12 21:50:42
    249.   ToyCannon
    Hard to cull the herd when we keep financially rewarding the stupid ones thus ensuring they will continue to procreate.
    2008-11-12 21:56:01
    250.   Eric Stephen
    That's much funnier referencing 247 than 246 . :)

    I think McDonald only threw 124.2 IP in 2008 (142 in 2006, 134.2 in 2007). I don't think 180 is an unreasonable total, since McDonald will be in his age 24 year. But I would imagine he'll be around the 160-170 mark.

    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2008-11-12 22:01:06
    251.   ToyCannon
    Right 246
    2008-11-12 22:52:26
    252.   Jon Weisman
    2008-11-12 23:05:06
    253.   dzzrtRatt
    Okay, I read Canuck Dodgers' post on the prior thread regarding Manny and C.C. (which was one of my favorite cartoon shows from my childhood by the way). I'm partly persuaded, particularly on the greater need for Sabathia, but on behalf of those who got a real charge from having a charismatic ultra-masher on the Dodgers for a couple months, I want to pose a question:

    Why can't we sign Manny for, say, four or five years and then, after two or three years, trade him to an AL team to finish out his contract? Why can't that be the de facto plan?

    Manny's fielding isn't so awful now that we should think he couldn't handle the field in 2009-10, especially if Pierre sticks around for late-inning work. If, after a couple of years, it's obvious he shouldn't be in left field but is still a great hitter -- a reasonable forecast -- the AL will still be interested in him. Trade him then. There would be takers, if he can still hit. Chances are, Manny would prefer to move, too, if he can't play the field, so a no-trade provision won't be a serious obstacle. I could see this happening in mid-2011 and I could see some good prospects coming back.

    If that's not a reasonable forecast, i.e. if the more likely forecast is his hitting will decline along with his fielding, then that supposition is probably shared by all 30 teams. And, therefore, he won't get a 6-year offer from anyone.

    The Dodgers' offer is neither insulting nor a PR stunt. It is probably a near-accurate assessment of Manny's value, and not very far from what he'll sign for. Manny is not more valuable to an AL team, just because he has DH written all over him. He is merely less valuable than a younger player or more adept fielder would be. Just because Scott Boras thinks he "deserves" a six-year deal doesn't mean he'll get one.

    But if the consensus is that Manny does deserve a six-year-deal, there is no reason an NL team wouldn't be as wise as an AL team to give it to him, because he can always be traded to the AL when the time comes.

    2008-11-12 23:08:48
    254.   Eric Stephen
    Honest question, has Manny ever deserved an MVP?

    I finally got around to looking at my old copy of Win Shares. Through 2001, the only real case Manny could have had was 1999:

    1999 AL Win Shares
    1) Manny 35
    1) Alomar 35
    1) Jeter 35
    4) B.Williams 33
    5) Nomar 32
    6) Griffey 31
    6) Palmeiro 31
    8) Giambi 30
    9) Pudge 28 (actual MVP)


    1) A-Rod 37 (MVP)
    2) Manny 34
    3) Sheffield 33
    4) Teixeira 32
    5) Ortiz 31

    1) Jeter 33
    2) Mauer 31
    3) Manny 29
    3) Ortiz 29
    5) Morneau 27 (MVP)
    5) Ibañez 27

    2008 MLB
    1) Berkman 38
    2) Pujols 35
    3) Manny 34 (combined)
    4) Beltran 33
    5) H.Ramirez 32
    6) Mauer 31
    7) Utley 30

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