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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Shuttle Stop
2008-12-01 11:10
by Jon Weisman

It was reported last week that the Union Station-Dodger Stadium shuttle might have been too successful for its own good and is in jeopardy unless the Dodgers start to help funding it, writes Damien Newton of Los Angeles Streetsblog. (Thanks to 6-4-2 for the link.)

It's a subject that might come up on the radio today, if the necessary connections are made. Kevin Roderick at L.A. Observed notes that "Dodgers co-owner Jamie McCourt will talk some more about her controversial comments about the Dodgers, their charities and the economy on Patt Morrison, KPCC (89.3 FM) at 2:30 p.m." and also passes along this relevant link to this commentary by his colleague, Bill Boyarsky.

... the Dodgers really need city hall for the big zoning and other regulatory changes required if Frank and Jamie McCourt, the team's owners, ever go ahead with a big residential and commercial development on the fringes of the 300 acres of Chavez Ravine that the team owns. McCourt always downplays his interest in such a development, but he's a real estate guy. And from where I sit in the stadium, looking over the parking lot, I can just visualize where the condos, stores, restaurants, bars and clubs would go. They'd call it Dodger City or Stadium Heights and it would be huge money making development when the recession ends and building resumes. And the new residents could use a tram to get downtown.

City hall folks are entertained well by the Dodgers. Council members hang out in the McCourt luxury box. The mayor is welcomed in the McCourts' front-row seats. During one of those baseball interludes, the mayor and the council members should tell the McCourts: "You want that zoning? You want the EIR approved? Then put some money in for the tram."

Everyone else in the city has to grease the way, usually with campaign contributions, for big zoning and EIR votes. Let the McCourts grease the way, too.

Just before Thanksgiving, I asked Dodger public relations gyroscope Josh Rawitch about the shuttle situation, and he said that "we're working with local officials and agencies for a 2009 plan."

Update: Joe Sheehan of Baseball Prospectus suggests what he would do if he were Dodger general manager.

Update 2: The Morrison-McCourt interview was taped Wednesday night.

Comments (248)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-01 11:24:48
1.   JoeyP
From the last thread--

I dont think I'd release Andruw Jones. He at the very worst could a 4th/5th OF'er. It just doesnt make sense to eat 18 mils unless the Dodgers really want to free up a roster spot.

2008-12-01 11:26:07
2.   mwhite06
The bottleneck blog has been on top of this issue as well, and one thought expressed there (which I completely agree with) is why was this being offered as a free shuttle? It is great news that it is succesfull, but surely there is some price which will remain desirable to the dodger fan and provide some sort of farebox recovery so that the city does not have to subsidize the entire venture.
2008-12-01 11:26:38
3.   regfairfield
Joe Sheehan somehow managed to make a team that can't do anything well, that's pretty hard to do.
2008-12-01 11:27:12
4.   Bob Timmermann
If I ran the Dodgers, I'd consult this book:
2008-12-01 11:28:10
5.   PalmdaleSteve1
As a big fan of Metro Rail, how about something to connect China Town up the hill to Dodger Stadium?

People mover, moving steps, moving walkway, a fleet of Yaks with packs, something to allow access to Dodger stadium by Metro rail.

Catch a game, go down the hill for as Warren Zevon put it...

"He was lookin for the place called Lee Ho Fooks, gonna get a big dish of beef chow mein."

2008-12-01 11:28:39
6.   Eric Stephen
Do kids today in middle school P-E classes still do the shuttle run?
2008-12-01 11:31:14
7.   Icaros

Ooh, with the chalkboard erasers? That was fun!

2008-12-01 11:32:20
8.   bhsportsguy
2 One thing to note, parking around Union Station was around $7-$8 unless you found street parking or you walked a fair distance. So let's say you charge $2 per person, you are only saving 5 bucks from parking at the Stadium and that's for a solo driver.

The Rose Bowl Shuttle from Parsons used to be free but they charged $7 for parking if you happened to park there. Now they allow to park for free but charge $2 per person for the round trip. They probably make out okay since they now charge people who don't park at the lot anymore.

2008-12-01 11:32:21
9.   Kevin Lewis
On the way to my 10 year reunion, I passed a pet shop offering, "Free Puppy Kisses"

I doubt I will ever ride the shuttle again, especially if it costs money. It added about an hour to my commute and it was slow. The worst part is when I get to the Gold Line at Union, board the train, and wait 20 minutes for it to leave.

2008-12-01 11:33:08
10.   bhsportsguy
3 That's why I didn't go into much detail, I thought his suggestion for second base would go down in flames here.
2008-12-01 11:33:54
11.   Bob Timmermann
Some of us just walk from the Memorial Park station to the Rose Bowl. It's cathartic.

At least it better be Saturday.

2008-12-01 11:35:00
12.   bhsportsguy
9 I think it only works if the Dodgers and the City of L.A. pay for it, and I am not sure why the Dodgers would aside from promoting a Green agenda and good PR. It certainly doesn't help their bottom line.
2008-12-01 11:35:21
13.   Bob Timmermann
I think ESPN should resume the mock GM press conferences with Steve Phillips making moves for every team.

Those had a lot of unintentional humor.

2008-12-01 11:36:09
14.   Tripon
8 There's a place in Chinatown where I can park for a dollar all day, but its still a fair distance from the park. At least a 20 minute walk, somewhere on College St, near the Kamara restaurant. But its worth it. Or I guess you can park near Salano.
2008-12-01 11:36:27
15.   Andrew Shimmin
Releasing Jones so that you can keep Repko is a bold move.
2008-12-01 11:38:02
16.   Tripon
Releasing Jones so you can keep Luis Maza is an even bolder move.
2008-12-01 11:39:39
17.   regfairfield
I did like his give the Brewers nothing for Rickie Weeks plan.
2008-12-01 11:39:56
18.   mwhite06
8 Yes, that is true if you park at union station. However, Union station is accessible via public transit from all over the county. A fan can ride the red line from the valley,and transfer to dodger shutte at union. At that point, when factoring in the price of gas and parking, it may make more sense to ride public transit.
2008-12-01 11:42:22
19.   Tripon
18 Considering I paid $2.09 for the highest grade, I don't think anybody is currently worried about gas prices at the moment.
2008-12-01 11:43:54
20.   cargill06
17 If we give up nothing for Rickie Weeks did we get the bad end of the deal?
2008-12-01 11:44:37
21.   Jon Weisman
I exchanged e-mails with Patt Morrison: just found out her Jamie inteview was taped Wednesday night.
2008-12-01 11:45:21
22.   silverwidow
I'm curious who BA picks as our #1 prospect. I don't think it'll be JMac; they give far more weight to 'ceiling' than closeness to the majors. Lambo and DeJesus are both interesting but have their respective flaws. Elbert might get pigeonholed as a reliever.

That pretty much leaves Ethan Martin - highest ceiling, projectable, big-time tools, etc.

2008-12-01 11:46:00
23.   Eric Stephen
I especially liked Olney, Kurkjian, et al asking forced questions with pained looks on their faces.
2008-12-01 11:47:30
24.   Andrew Shimmin
I think Brian Lamb has a crush on Patt Morrison. She's the only person in L.A. who ever gets on C-Span.
2008-12-01 11:48:03
25.   PalmdaleSteve1

Or park for free at outlying Metro rail stations and ride to China town, still gotta hike the hill up to Dodger land.

How much would a people mover cost? 10, 20 Million, Parking Lot Frank can just short change a few ball fields in poor areas....or NOT.

2008-12-01 11:49:13
26.   JoeyP
Weeks wouldnt be a bad buy low/high upside player.
He's not developed much power, but he does walk quite a bit & is only 26yrs old.

I doubt the Brewers would give him away for nothing.

2008-12-01 11:49:59
27.   MC Safety
I wouldn't be surprised if Andruw Jones hit 20 homers this year.
2008-12-01 11:50:22
28.   CanuckDodger
22 -- It will be Lambo. BA's Jim Callis already said unequivocally that Lambo is our best prospect.
2008-12-01 11:50:54
29.   Kevin Lewis
Speaking of people movers...are monorails not efficient means for transportation? Wouldn't that be a good solution to the train problems? Put Monorails down every major freeway...

Note: I in no way endorse a Simpson's reference here.

2008-12-01 11:54:03
30.   CanuckDodger
The best part of Sheehan's article: "A rotation of Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw, McDonald, and Stults will seem risky, but could be above average across the board."

That is the rotation I have proposed here several times, and I have got the sense people here were too polite to say, but did think, I am insane.:)

2008-12-01 11:56:35
31.   mwhite06
29 The only problem with that is that freeways are not destinations. Once someone exits the freeway, there would need to be an expansive bus network to take travelers (which would have a lower capacity then the trains they just exited) to get to the final destination.
2008-12-01 11:58:48
32.   Icaros

That's when the moving sidewalk takes the baton.

2008-12-01 11:59:55
33.   CanuckDodger
And we really do have to accept that we are stuck with Jones as our starting CF for opening day, so Sheehan got that wrong.

And forget trading for Weeks. He has been a big disappointment for a second overall draft pick. As for giving up Xavier Paul and Garate for him, that would actually be a "fair" deal, representing what I think he is worth. But of course we are never asked to give up what is fair when we enter trade talks. The Dodgers are always asked to give up the moon and the stars.

2008-12-01 12:00:02
34.   Eric Stephen
I'd rather invest funds into a sidewalk that lights up as it is stepped on, like in the video for "Billie Jean."
2008-12-01 12:02:58
35.   Jon Weisman
30 - I've always been fine with that as an Opening Week rotation. I think you and I would both like Sabathia too, but would prefer not to OVERpay for mediocrity as an alternative. And I think we both want to make sure to have plenty of NRIs to choose from this year.
2008-12-01 12:05:16
36.   silverwidow
Yanks are rumored to decline arb on Bobby Abreu.

He'd fit in nicely next to Kemp & Ethier, if we could somehow jettison Pierre/Jones.

2008-12-01 12:05:26
37.   Penarol1916
30. To me, the biggest problem with that rotation is the lack of depth it implies. Who are our 6th and 7th starters? Especially with the last three guys not having thrown a full season in the majors, I would think that would be a primary concern.
2008-12-01 12:09:23
38.   cargill06
I never got much feedback, sorry for thge repost, but I see this as a 88-90 win team with just signing Orlando Hudson. What do you think?

Let's take a loot at the teams production as a whole last year that managed to outscore it's opponents 700-648 (Pythag 87-75). Where could this team reasonably improve with either in house options or lower tier FA's? (assuming a payroll cut for next year.)

C- .276/.376/.391 (103 OPS+)
1B- .292/.344/.458 (109 OPS+) -1 defense
2B- .281/.340/.419 (98 OPS+) -12 defense
SS- .244/.310/.367 (77 OPS+) +6 defense
3B- .245/.321/.376 (83 OPS+) +10 defense
LF- .300/.371/.445 (113 OPS+) -5 defense
CF- .236/.301/.358 (73 OPS+) -2 defense
RF- .315/.373/.537 (136 OPS+) -18 defense

I think it's safe to assume C, 1B are pretty sure bets to be better this year. 3B is I think at worst the same with a lot of real upside possibility assuming DeWitt gets the job. Our OF trio last year combined for a line of .284/.348/.448 (OPS+ 108) and -25 on defense. If we don't sign an OF'er Andruw Jones could be the make or break point of the season, if he's right, could that trio match that line of 108 OPS+ or come close? Probably, and it's reasonable to expect the OF defense to be much much better. Now, to adress our other holes SS and 2B. A full season of Hu, would be better the +7 number on defense. He should destroy that number, just a question if he can come close to the 77 OPS+ number. Now to 2B, sign Orlando Hudson maybe? If you do that's a massive upgrade at 2B, his offense will probably be better than the 98 OPS+ number and his defense would probably be at least 20 plays better than what we had last year. You could expect that team to at least score as many runs and prevent as many runs. (The drop off in pitching talent would be made up for the 50+ more plays this team would make on defense compared to last years team.)

2008-12-01 12:17:24
39.   D4P
Given the negativepuppypettingness of the economy these days, it will be great if Boras/Manny get no offers any better than (or equal to) the Dodgers's initial offer, and have to come crawling back begging at Ned's lady snakeskin-booted feet.

Then Ned, knowing that Boras/Manny have no hand in the negotiation, can offer even less money than he did the first time.

2008-12-01 12:40:32
40.   heyblue
Can anyone summarize the Sheehan article? It's BP subscriber only.
2008-12-01 12:42:20
41.   ToyCannon
To me the problem with that rotation is the reality that Torre dumped Stults and refused to use him after the Colorado game. While Stults might be forced into the rotation via injury or ineffectiveness I don't see any scenario where Torre would be happy with him as a member of the rotation. I wouldn't call you crazy but I don't think that rotation would be very good for a full season. Expecting the trio of McDonald, Kershaw, and Stults to be members of a major league rotation right out of the gate for a full year doesn't look like a good bet to me. Even if they were better then expected wouldn't they be pitching on fumes by Sept? Speaking of bets did anyone catch the 60 Minutes on on-line poker?

I'd be more then happy to trade for Weeks. While he has been a disappointment given his draft position he still has some upside as an offensive 2nd baseman.

2008-12-01 12:46:42
42.   ToyCannon
I like Hudson but I don't want to spend a lot of money on him. Who is in the rotation? Why is it a given that McDonald can carry his weight in the rotation? Much more ballyhooed prospects like Hughes, Kennedy, and Buchholz were some of the worse pitchers in baseball last year. Looking good in relief is a lot different then looking good in a rotation.
2008-12-01 12:53:07
43.   Jacob Burch
41 I didn't watch it, but I guessed it was about the AP/UB super-user scandal that I think I actually pointed out here a couple of weeks ago. Was it on something else?
2008-12-01 12:55:17
44.   Jacob Burch
43 Google tells me I was correct. Cool to see it get some mainstream play time--the whole story is really pretty interesting how Stat-nerds caught such a cheat.
2008-12-01 12:56:19
45.   bhsportsguy
43 There is a companion piece in the Washington Post that covers teh UB/AB situation and then just a general discussion of internet gambling.
2008-12-01 12:57:02
46.   regfairfield
40 Sign Lowe, Durham and Javier Valentin, trade for Rickie Weeks, offer arbitration to Saito, release Andruw.
2008-12-01 12:57:15
47.   CanuckDodger
41 -- We would definitely need a seven-man bullpen to take enough innings from the young trio of Kershaw, McDonald, and Stults, and Stults is old enough that I wouldn't have much concern with pushing his innings limit. Heck, we have seen the Marlins manage with rotations with nothing but young arms. We at least have a 200 inning guy in Billz and an over-30 Kuroda.

And what is Torre's problem with Stults anyway? He gave up 3 runs in 3 innings in Coors, a park where Billz is just one guy who has been much worse, and it was into the doghouse for Stults. Never mind that he threw a complete game shutout against the White Sox. Anyway, you simply don't give Torre an alternative to Stults. Torre's not the GM.

2008-12-01 12:58:35
48.   cargill06
42 Good point, that team would only have a payroll of about $80, I would assume they'd still have some money to spend on pitching.
2008-12-01 12:59:47
49.   bhsportsguy
46 Actually it would be just tendering a contract to Saito since he is still under control to the Dodgers for 3 more years.
2008-12-01 12:59:51
50.   ToyCannon
Yup, lots of people putting a lot of faith in an unregulated industry with no visibility or consequences considering it is real money they are playing with.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-01 13:01:38
51.   Dodgers49
38 his offense will probably be better than the 98 OPS+ number

I like Orlando Hudson. However, I'm a bit worried that his first year back from his injury may not be a good one offensively. I understand that just because Jayson Werth had a similar problem does not mean that Orlando will also. But still ...

2008-12-01 13:01:58
52.   Marty
Patt Morrison saves a lot of puppies, but I advise you never be on the other end of a call when she has a technology problem.
2008-12-01 13:02:41
53.   ToyCannon
How Torre handled Stults is one of the great mysteries of 2008 and I don't think a manager with his power can just be handled as you suggest.
2008-12-01 13:02:51
54.   Marty
50 Are you talking about online gambling, or the stock market?
2008-12-01 13:04:32
55.   Jacob Burch
50 The majority of the players I know are begging for regulation, glad to send off some of their profits to taxes in exchange for a legitimate industry.

That said, even if there are still people ripping people off, people who are good at it still post impressive numbers--and with proper protection, make a lot of money.

2008-12-01 13:05:31
56.   Jacob Burch
52 This sounds like a story!

54 Rim-shot.

2008-12-01 13:07:43
57.   bhsportsguy
55 I think they also believe that with a legitimate industry, their marketing and branding opportunities would grow. Also, it is having an impact on some live tournaments such as the $10K WSOP Main Event where the number of entrants has dropped since the ban on companies like NetTeller.
2008-12-01 13:08:48
58.   CanuckDodger
42 -- What happened with the trio of Buchholz, Hughes and Kennedy is an argument for NEVER trusting ANY pitching prospects in a rotation. Honestly, you are parroting classic Ned Colletti thinking. "What if the youngsters just aren't ready? We need proven veterans." I have said I would go for Sabathia or Sheets, but it doesn't look like either guy is going to come here, does it? So barring that, what alternative do I want? Certainly not signing Jon Garland or trading young talent away. And the five guys I am proposing using as starters are all at least in the organization, right now, so we don't even have to "make believe" we will sign them or trade for them.
2008-12-01 13:08:49
59.   bhsportsguy
54 Marty is waiting for the Zell to sell the papers and get a big buy out, then you will read where all the bodies are buried.
2008-12-01 13:10:07
60.   ToyCannon
So they say, I'm always unimpressed with gamblers who only talk about successes and not losses. If everyone is making as much money as is claimed, who is losing?
2008-12-01 13:10:50
61.   Dodgers49
47 And what is Torre's problem with Stults anyway?

Torre seemed to place far too much weight in his disappointment that Stults didn't challenge hitters when he had a huge lead. And Torre has shown that once you are in his doghouse it is very difficult to get out.

2008-12-01 13:11:53
62.   Xeifrank
30. How many starts could we "realistically" expect get out of a rotation of Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw, McDonald and Stults? Maybe 120? The Dodgers got 135 starts out of their top 5 starters (per games started) last year and that's with Penny missing atleast a dozen.
vr, Xei
2008-12-01 13:12:10
63.   wronghanded
55 Thank you for recommending the other week. I still haven't found the courage to play for real money but I keep entering their poker after dark freerolls. After finishing 3rd out of a field of 360 on Saturday, I finally won in a field of 360 yesterday and now will advance to round 2. Apparently its worth 100 FTP, what is the cash value for FTPs? Anyhow if I finish in the top 20 out of 1000+ tonight, I either win thousands of FTP points or qualify for a seat in their monthly tournament. Have you ever entered one of these? Do you have any insight?
2008-12-01 13:13:46
64.   cargill06
55 If anyone plays online check out the sit thisisthenuts dot com, you sign up link up your account to this account and recieve 30% of your rake back. No catches, no strings attached.
2008-12-01 13:14:29
65.   CanuckDodger
53 -- From what I have read, Brian Cashman never hesitated to step in and interfere with Torre's bugaboos and fetishes. The Proctor trade to the Dodgers was supposedly all about Cashman wanting to take Proctor away from Torre because Torre was too attached to him.
2008-12-01 13:15:32
66.   cargill06
60 tableratings dot com you can see what players are really making or losing online.
2008-12-01 13:16:34
67.   Jacob Burch
60 Keep in mind I'm only talking to the vocal minority. People who are smart enough to keep small edges with high capitol (a 2-5% edge at the right games can translate to $50-$400/hr) have built a semi community and are easy to find. They make up a tiny, tiny percentage of the people who play online, but the majority of the rest aren't the ones talking.

Granted, only a couple of people I know come close to posting that kind of win rate (And it's probably more like a 10-20% edge in smaller games--and lots of them), and I'm no where near the positive side when it comes to online, but I assure you they do exist in not-as-small-numbers as you'd think.

2008-12-01 13:16:55
68.   ToyCannon
Not really, trusting three at a time is a bit different. Stults should have been used more this year but I think we'd have to be desperate to put him into the rotation right off the get go. He's one of those guys you keep around for depth not someone you write in at the beginning.

I'd be surprised if either McDonald or Stults is in the rotation come April.

2008-12-01 13:17:57
69.   silverwidow
Astros sign Mike Hampton
2008-12-01 13:18:24
70.   CanuckDodger
62 -- There is no way of answering your question without knowing if anybody will get hurt, or how badly. We will have Schmidt, Kuo, prospects in triple A and Double A, and I keep saying that we will inevitably sign players to minor league contracts. That is where EVERY team's depth lies.
2008-12-01 13:18:26
71.   Jacob Burch
66 This site has me as a winner and is therefore clearly flawed.
2008-12-01 13:19:24
72.   OhioBlues12
Also, keep in mind that we still have Schmidt. You can't count on him, but I would not be surprised if he gets a good amount of starts this season, though I have no idea what he is capable of at this point.
2008-12-01 13:19:37
73.   cargill06
71 Haha, it only takes into account cash games. Really, you think it's unaccurate?
2008-12-01 13:19:51
74.   bhsportsguy
67 You are probably right, if you found the right low limit cash games and just played tight, you could probably win enough to eke out those kind of edges. You would have to play a lot of hands per hour and it would be a fairly boring existence
2008-12-01 13:21:39
75.   Jacob Burch
71 Figured it out--it doesn't track micro-stakes, where I routinely go to donk off money when I'm bored. If I'm playing .50/1 or higher, I tend to play alright.

Still has a blow by blow recap of how I made a terrible raise->call with AJo, got lucky, then a lot unluckier. I need to stop playing past midnight.

2008-12-01 13:22:22
76.   Xeifrank
70. Of course you don't know the exact number, but you could guess an over/under, that's what real GMs need to do. You don't want to end up giving 45 starts at or near replacement level. That being said, what is the status of Schmidt for the upcoming season, haven't heard much about him of late.
vr, Xei
2008-12-01 13:27:21
77.   Gagne55
I don't see the love for Stults. The guy has always been a AAAA pitcher. That he threw a shutout against the White Sox doesn't change that. It's not like his minor league numbers were very impressive.
2008-12-01 13:27:23
78.   Dodgers49
61 And Torre has shown that once you are in his doghouse it is very difficult to get out.

This is also why I have my doubts that Hu will be our starting shortstop come next April. Maybe Hu had vision problems that have been corrected. But he didn't hit for whatever reason when Torre gave him a chance and I suspect he'll need to have one heck of a Spring Training to overcome that. When he came back up at the end of the year Torre practically ignored him.

2008-12-01 13:27:38
79.   Jacob Burch
75 There are some real true examples of how ugly I can play when I get into tired-LAG mode. Ah, memories.
2008-12-01 13:28:19
80.   Jacob Burch
77 The love comes from a small sample size and that some of the guys we've trotted out in the 5th slot have been very much worse than a career AAAAer.
2008-12-01 13:28:29
81.   wronghanded
79 Did you see 63 ?
2008-12-01 13:31:08
82.   ToyCannon
Last I heard everything was go and he was shutting it down for normal winter rest and is expected to start up his training in a normal manner. For some reason I'm optimistic about him giving us some starts like 72 suggests.

Randy Johnson seems like such a natural fit for us for one year. Then the depth is McDonald/Stults and whatever NRI's we have signed. I wouldnt' expect Randy or Schmidt to make more then 40 starts combined so McDonald would get plenty of work without over extending his innings.

2008-12-01 13:35:22
83.   Jacob Burch
81 I did not. I tend to use any/all FTPp I get on SNGs for $26 tournaments.

Playing for points should probably not be looked at much more than practice at learning to crush really, really weak tournament play. Until you get to the level where Money Talks, people just don't care about chips or money and will do whatever entertains them (I am very much guilty of this online).

In a game that does not quickly or actively reward correct play, it can get frustrating and hard to not give into the "well if they do it, I can do it too" mentality. It's a cash book, but the second volume of Harrington of Cash has a fairly apt section on weak games and how to handle them. The basics being, don't get dominated, play more hands cheaply, and realize there is a lot of profit to be made if you just know how to handle it.

That said, the profit in Freerolls or Super-Super-Super-Satellites is so top heavy even the best player would need either a lot of participation or luck to do anything worth while with them. As I suggested, the best players have small edges, so the only real way for a reliable profit is to find a game you know you beat and to play it as much as you can, while learning to have a similar success rate at bigger games. Despite knowing a great deal about the strategy and ideas behind the game, my impatience and thrill-seeking still make me a losing player. Even if I "know" a lot more than someone playing dinky grind style makes more money than him, and I'm starting to not like that.

I blame this negative puppy petting stint we're in!

2008-12-01 13:36:48
84.   das411
Sporting headline: "Nationals RHP Redding has surgery on left foo (1 comment)"

Somebody alert Dave Grohl!

2008-12-01 13:47:46
85.   CanuckDodger
77 -- And Paul LoDuca was a AAAA catcher. So was Dave Ross. They were never considered prospects of ANY kind, even lousy ones, in the minors, and were stuck in the minors into their late 20's. They were "roster filler" in the minors. The same could be said of Matt Herges as a pitcher. Dave Roberts was a 29-year-old AAAA player in the Indians' system before the Dodgers plucked him from that system because they needed a warm body in CF.

Nobody "loves" Stults. But I think he can be a BETTER than average 5th starter in MLB given the craptastic standard that MLB 5th starters maintain. Smart teams make use of guys like that to their advantage, especially in times when the alternatives are for comparable or worse guys at much bigger salaries.

2008-12-01 13:48:24
86.   wronghanded
83 I love playing in person and realize that it's a much different monster online. I have found that bluffing, trapping and other advanced poker moves don't play consistently well online (too much suspect play from others lead to bad beats). I have found that selective hyper-aggression works best. I fold >90% of my hands but when I play, I bring down the hammer. I usually only play top 10 hands, the only time I really don't is when I have good position and the monster stacks aren't involved. I have found in turbo blind tournaments, the fold or all-in approach usually works best, either you isolate a single player, get a loose call from a big stack or scoop blinds.
2008-12-01 13:49:21
87.   Jacob Burch
85 Canuck took what I said and made it 1000% smarter and clear sounding. So listen to him.
2008-12-01 13:52:44
88.   Jacob Burch
86 In a cash game, unless the game is very aggressive preflop, you'll want to play a lot more than top 10, but considerably restrict your standards after the flop. The idea being that if players are playing badly (or at least, worse than you) you want to take any edge you can get with them if the price is cheap, and let it go from there.

That said, I'm veering towards cash game ideal. Players love getting their money in the middle in tournaments, and there's no reason to join them really. Your stack in comparison to the blinds also rarely gets anywhere close to 'deep stack' past the first couple of rounds, so a lot of deep stack mentality doesn't play. Not the kind of game I like to play, but until you have a roll to afford at least $1/$2 online (and the uncapped games at a B&M), you're somewhat restricted.

2008-12-01 13:53:37
89.   Jon Weisman
Tough competition in the Pac-10 Special Teams player of the week race:

"Oregon tailback Jeremiah Johnson, Arizona State safety Troy Nolan and USC kicker David Buehler are the Pac-10 Players of the Week. ... Buehler, a senior from Anaheim, Calif., connected from 35 yards on his only field-goal attempt, was 5-for-5 on PATs and had four touchbacks on seven kickoffs in USC's 38-3 win against Notre Dame."

2008-12-01 13:58:19
90.   wronghanded
88 I definitely have the expendable cash to gamble online (I play live games at least twice a month), I'm just beyond apprehensive to do so because of the change in laws, I used to play single table tourneys at pokerroom and actually made pretty good money but as soon as net teller was taken away I stopped. Are their a ton of US players that play for cash or are we in the minority? I just don't want Uncle Sam breathing down my back.
2008-12-01 14:07:07
91.   Marty tracks tournament play.
2008-12-01 14:07:42
92.   trainwreck
My ex-SB roommates play FullTilt every day.
2008-12-01 14:08:04
93.   trainwreck
I imagine they lose a lot of money.
2008-12-01 14:08:08
94.   Marty
PokerStars still takes deposits directly from US bank accounts.
2008-12-01 14:11:22
95.   wronghanded
92, 93, 94 Thanks for the info. Marty do you like pokerstars?
2008-12-01 14:14:02
96.   wronghanded
Now that the Tigers declined to offer arbitration to Renteria, is he an attractive option for a short term contract?
2008-12-01 14:14:32
97.   Marty
I think its as good or bad as any. They seem to have a good mix of cash and tourney S&G games. Online always seems to have lots more miracle river cards than live poker, but that's probably due to many more hands being played. The worst part of any online game is they discourage being able to take winnings back to your non-poker bank account.
2008-12-01 14:19:19
98.   Eric Stephen
For all you Laker fans outside of the LA market, tomorrow's game at Indiana will be televised by NBA TV (winning the vote for "Fan Night") at 4pm.

Even better, NBA TV will have the Pacer broadcast audio feed so Joel Meyers can be avoided.

2008-12-01 14:19:38
99.   trainwreck
A guy I went to school with since middle school won an online tournament and got to play in the WSOP. He is pretty much a compulsive gambler now.
2008-12-01 14:22:43
100.   D4P
The Duke freshman roommate of erstwhile DT poster "Benaiah" finished in the top 8 of the WSOP a few years back.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-01 14:24:41
101.   trainwreck
A guy in my film classes at UCSB won a couple of bracelets.
2008-12-01 14:25:12
102.   trainwreck
I have been to the WSOP it is cool for about half an hour.
2008-12-01 14:27:33
103.   El Lay Dave
102 No coincidence that ESPN2 shows it in 30-minute episodes.
2008-12-01 14:28:33
104.   Tripon
98 Why did Joel Myers win the Lakers broadcast job? He's kinda horrible, and if you're looking to replace a legend, Myers wouldn't be the first guy I'd think of, or the 1000000000000000000th guy.

Okay, so I don't like Myers.

2008-12-01 14:30:12
105.   Marty
You never see the dead time in a tournament on TV. you would think there's pocket pairs every hand if all you did was watch TV.
2008-12-01 14:31:02
106.   Eric Stephen
Meyers got to replace the guy (the vanilla yet never realized I would miss him Paul Sunderland) who replaced the legend.

Also, now I appreciate Chick even more for interrupting Stu Lantz for all those years.

2008-12-01 14:34:51
107.   D4P
You never see the dead time in a tournament on TV

Same with billiards. And there's an MC guy who signals the crowd when to cheer.

2008-12-01 14:35:29
108.   JoeyP
Anyone believe poker is too much about luck & thus avoid the game altogether?
2008-12-01 14:37:35
109.   Icaros
I really liked Myers when he did radio with Mychael Thompson. I think the problem is Stu.
2008-12-01 14:37:44
110.   scareduck
39 - I have seen the "puppy petting" locution used around here lately, and it seems to be pretty opaque. Could somebody explain what this is about?
2008-12-01 14:37:54
111.   KG16
you guys are having a poker conversation without me? I hate working an honest job.
2008-12-01 14:39:06
112.   Icaros
I hate working an honest job.

So you quit being a lawyer, too? :-)

2008-12-01 14:39:09
113.   Humma Kavula
108 I believe that poker is too much about luck and being able to read opponents. That's why I avoid the game.

So I'll stay out of Poker Thoughts.

But if anyone wants to start Bridge Thoughts... I'm around.

2008-12-01 14:39:53
114.   Humma Kavula
110 Ya go away for Thanksgiving, you miss everything.
2008-12-01 14:40:22
115.   ToyCannon
I liked Sunderland and can't stand Joel Myers. He's another reason why I don't watch or listen to the Lakers like I used to. The one aspect the Clippers have over the Lakers is Lawler and Smith. They are funny, but then they have to be since the team is laughable. Course I loved the trade and Eric Gordon is fun to watch when he's not getting dinged which seems just about every game.
2008-12-01 14:40:27
116.   D4P
My card game of choice is Hearts.

I used to play a lot online until I got fed up with the clowns who didn't know how to play. Now I just play against Microsoft.

2008-12-01 14:40:30
117.   Bob Timmermann
I am the father of that phrase and never thought it would catch on.

It was my contribution for how economists and government leaders keeping coming up with less imposing sounding words to describe economic bad times.

They used to be panics. Then they became depressions. Now they're recessions.

So to make it sound more palatable, I just say that the economy is suffering a net loss in the number of puppies being petted.

2008-12-01 14:41:02
118.   scareduck
37 - absolutely agree. This rotation has come up before (I think CanuckDodger has promoted it in other threads), and the inevitability of injury makes this a very flimsy rotation; this is also why I don't buy Sheehan's dismissal of the Dodgers' rotation problems. They're in better shape than some teams, but that's a long way from having a bulletproof starting five.
2008-12-01 14:41:36
119.   scareduck
117 - I demand a DNA test! :-)
2008-12-01 14:42:35
120.   scareduck
113 - have never played bridge, but am interested in learning at some point. Like mah jongg, it needs four players... and I don't know any.
2008-12-01 14:43:24
121.   Icaros

I've wasted many an hour playing computer Hearts, but never against clowns. That sounds kinda scary.

2008-12-01 14:43:40
122.   scareduck
117 - and,
2008-12-01 14:44:16
123.   ToyCannon
I miss playing cribbage with my Dad. As a family we played a lot of Canasta, Hearts, and Spades.
2008-12-01 14:44:52
124.   Eric Stephen
Microsoft is an opponent against whom it is too easy to "run" or "shoot the moon," depending on your preferred parlance.
2008-12-01 14:45:40
125.   Harold M Johnson
115 I don't like Myers, thought Sunderland was just OK.

I think the guy who does the radio broadcast, Spiro Didas (right spelling?) has a lot of talent and will eventually replace Joel and become a tenured favorite. I love Stu for the memories and don't mind him on the air.

2008-12-01 14:46:18
126.   CanuckDodger
118 -- But there is no such thing as a "bulletproof starting five." And thank you for putting into words the unspoken premise that I think many people have, and that I keep banging my head against.
2008-12-01 14:47:38
127.   Eric Stephen
I like Lawler (and Smith) a lot, and not just for Lawler's Law or "Bingo!" (my cousin and I vowed if we ever owned a sports bar we would have Lawler host a weekly bingo night). Problem is I don't watch nearly enough of their games. I like Baron and Gordon, though, and Camby has always been appreciated (since he anchored two winning fantasy teams a few years back), so I should watch them more. Some of their games are on locally here in SD.
2008-12-01 14:47:43
128.   oshea2002
Is anyone else listening to Tommy on the Cannons right now? I'd rather listen to his stories then have him actually talk about the state of the Dodgers - with our "great GM" and "owners who only care about winning."

Pretty cool for Tommy, he's getting honored by the Japanese Emporer tomorrow.

2008-12-01 14:48:16
129.   D4P
I've wasted many an hour playing computer Hearts, but never against clowns. That sounds kinda scary

It's really hard to read their face. They either look consistently happy or consistently sad.

Microsoft is an opponent against whom it is too easy to "run" or "shoot the moon," depending on your preferred parlance

That used to be true, but the version that came with my current laptop (running Microsoft Vista) is actually relatively challenging. The computers are decent players, though the main moon-shooting obstacle is this version's rule that the queen of spades doesn't break hearts.

2008-12-01 14:49:08
130.   ToyCannon
True, no one is willing to take the bullet for the good of the game. I think I played a lot of on-line hearts before I discovered Dodger Thoughts.
2008-12-01 14:49:33
131.   cargill06
108 I deposited $200 in my account 2 months ago, after reaching my peak on Wed. and building my account to $5,500 I was convinced there isn't luck and I'm a very good player. After losing $3,500 of it since than, I'm convinced it's luck and I'm the worst player in the world and cashed out all my money swearing to never play again. (Which probably means I'll play again in a month and deposit $200)
2008-12-01 14:57:39
132.   D4P
In addition to the "queen of spades doesn't break hearts" rule, there are a couple other things I don't like about this version. One, there's a "hold" hand with no pass, and two, you can't go backwards 26 points when you shoot.
2008-12-01 14:58:01
133.   ToyCannon
Yankee's did not offer arbitration to either Abreu or Pettite. Isn't Abreu one of those guys whose numbers just jump out as an above average player but whose fans can't stand to watch him play?
2008-12-01 14:58:02
134.   Tripon
127 Mike Dunleavy has somehow become the only coach/GM in the league despite Sterling hating Dunleavy to the point where he would fire him if he didn't have a huge contract, and Dunleavy pushing out Elgin Baylor. And now he created a roster that makes absolutely no sense, and is actively trying to trade his 2nd (Chris Kamen) and 3rd best (Marcus Camby) player to accommodate Zach Randolph. A player he had no reason to trade for because the Clippers already had Kamen and Camby. We may have found an even worse GM/coach over Isiah Thomas. And his name is Mike Dunleavy.
2008-12-01 14:59:04
135.   trainwreck
I have never played where there wasn't a no-pass turn.
2008-12-01 14:59:17
136.   ToyCannon
We always used the "hold" hand.
1st - pass to the right
2nd - pass to the left
3rd - hold
4th - if you have even number of players you would pass across
2008-12-01 14:59:24
137.   Tripon
133 I think part of it is that Aberu has a rep of not playing defense. Something about being scared of the Yankees walls. I'd think he'd work in Dodgers stadium, but we'll take a hit defensively with him in RF over Ethier, and he'd probably be worth too much for the Dodgers to consider him.
2008-12-01 14:59:42
138.   trainwreck
Yes. Philly fans hated that guy with a passion.
2008-12-01 15:00:18
139.   D4P
My previous version went left, right, across, repeat.

Hold hands dramatically increase the "luck" factor to a level I don't appreciate.

2008-12-01 15:00:38
140.   trainwreck
Let's not forget his great draft choice of Mr. Korolev.
2008-12-01 15:01:30
141.   bhsportsguy
Surprise, after playing Jamie McCourt's interview, Patt Morrison had syndicated sports columnist, Ron Rappaport on, who said while he does know that Jamie McCourt was not actually saying there was a choice between charity and player personnel, it was an attempt at a connection that should not be made.

After that, about 6-7 phone calls where the callers, said they disliked the McCourts, thought ticket prices were too high and did I say, did not like McCourts.

2008-12-01 15:01:54
142.   Kevin Lewis

I have just resorted to only playing only in B&M's. Plus working for a graduate school guarantees I have no money to use in poker.

2008-12-01 15:02:26
143.   kinbote
I can see Abreu signing with the Cubs.
2008-12-01 15:03:39
144.   ToyCannon
I'm not a Dunleavy fan but those Kamen rumors are probably bogus. I expect that teams have called and asked about Kamen and when they are told what it would take they hang up. No way is he being dealt for JRich. I think they hang with the trio this year and see how it plays out. Camby and Kamen get hurt enough that playing time will probably not be an issure.
2008-12-01 15:03:40
145.   Marty
Bridge and poker are the best two card games.
2008-12-01 15:03:53
146.   Tripon
140 Ah yes, Korolev. Forget about the fact the Clippers drafted him 12th when he seemed like a 2nd rounder to the perception he wasn't NBA ready and didn't log major minutes with his Russian team. The Clippers ignored all that, and brought him to America immediately, despite no pressure from Korolev or his Russian team. Then the Clippers barely play him, or develop him to the point where they had to cut him two years later, and now Korolev is back with his Russian team, and unlikely to come back to America.

The whole thing smacks of Dunleavy not realizing that he had a near playoff team roster, and the last thing the Clippers needed was another baby buck who needed to be coddled.

2008-12-01 15:05:15
147.   Icaros
Bobby Abreu's worst season, 2007, resulted in an OBP of .369 and .816 OPS.

Career line: .300/.405/.498 (.903)

No draft picks to surrender? Might make more sense than Manny or Burrell.

2008-12-01 15:06:18
148.   ToyCannon
I think the opposite. It takes great skill to get out from under a terrible hold hand. I do miss playing with real people and learning how they play the game. I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed playing cards with people until this thread.
2008-12-01 15:07:52
149.   Humma Kavula
I got to be OK at bridge about 13 years ago, when I was a senior at Unnamed Eastern University (Go, Fightin' Anonyms!). Then-Girlfriend of Kavula and I would get together to cook dinner with another couple and play bridge.

Now I've forgotten all the bidding conventions, which is more than half the game. I'd have to start over.

2008-12-01 15:09:15
150.   Marty
Me too. I used to play a lot of Bridge in my twenties, but I'm 52 now, so I'd have to re-learn it.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-01 15:10:50
151.   ToyCannon
Bad promises made had to be kept. I almost stopped being a fan when they picked him instead of Granger. If Dunleavey had known Granger would be available I don't think he makes that promise. It was a terrible draft anyway after the 4th pick. The fact the Lakers got Bynum and people were complaining about Laker management is still amazing to me.
2008-12-01 15:12:44
152.   ToyCannon
When you and I started conversing here we were both under 50. I got my AARP card the day after I turned 50. Yuck.
2008-12-01 15:12:50
153.   regfairfield
126 Guys like Stults and McDonald are valuable because of their minor league options. The fact that we have a not terrible guy that we can stash in the minors until we need him is huge. If you want to sign someone with that flexibility, they're going to be an NRI that's probably worse than Stults.
2008-12-01 15:13:32
154.   Tripon
151 I could see him picking Korolev, I just didn't see why they had to bring him over before he was ready. They couldn't give him major minutes because that team had to contend for a playoff spot. Which is funny because the Clippers could have sure used korolev during the 07-08 season, and they cut him anyway.
2008-12-01 15:17:57
155.   Jacob Burch
I play Euchure and Hearts fairly regularly, and no one beats me in Kemps(or whatever you want to call it).

I actually play on Stars now just because they have friendly micro stakes, which I use to shape up my weak-game-crushing. That said, I'm poor and watching a Matt Stairs homerun etc took away my poker funds for a bit.

Poker is much more about proper situational analysis and patience than it is anything else. Except luck, but I don't think it has any more or less than other card games.

I'm guessing 'wreck had classes with Jeff Madsen. I can at least respect that he did well in a OH/8, and isn't just a hold 'em fiend.

2008-12-01 15:19:12
156.   Jacob Burch
I thank the one, half-dimmed lucky star that remains of my NBA fandom when I remember that Granger is a Pacer for years to come.
2008-12-01 15:22:20
157.   Eric Stephen
I've never played 4-player Hearts without a "hold" hand, nor have I played a style in which the queen of spades broke hearts. Also, rather than subtract 26 for running it or moon shooting, we just add 26 to everyone else's score.

I have played a few variations of Hearts, including:

1) 3- or 5-player (increased or reduced card passing, depending on the situation). I don't like these games as much, and I never mentally count them as "official" :)
2) Jack of diamonds is negative 10 points. This is kind of a unique wrinkle, and many end up eating the Queen in their attempts to get the Jack
3) "Cancellation Hearts." This is played with 2 decks, and the play is the same except there are double the points available. Also, if the same card is played by two players they cancel out. For instance, if there are 5 players and two people lay the King of Spades, two people lay the Queen, and one person lays the 3 of Spades, the 3 takes the hand, 26 points in all. Kind of a "fun" diversion game

I love Hearts. It is my 2nd or 3rd favorite card game, behind Oh Hell and possibly 500.

True, no one is willing to take the bullet for the good of the game

My brother-in-law is notorious for trying (often successfully) to shoot the moon, and plays up this reputation by often leading a card and challenging us by saying "Somebody stop me." This is maddening if he does this with something like the jack of hearts and we have to decide if he is capable of running it (and try to stop him, perhaps gaining 20 or so points ourselves).

2008-12-01 15:23:37
158.   Jacob Burch
In my absence, as the women's College Cup gotten much love from Bob? With Stanford, UCLA and Notre Dame being in it, I have to imagine I've missed many an excellent comment on it.
2008-12-01 15:24:20
159.   Kevin Lewis

Patience and the ability to keep emotion out of your decisions. Too many players make decisions based off of other hands.

It's like thinking a system will help you win at Roulette.

2008-12-01 15:24:46
160.   Eric Stephen
After softball at the next DT outing, we need to have a DTWSOH tournament.
2008-12-01 15:25:40
161.   Jacob Burch
157 I've never played a deviation from the standard 4 player, left/right/across/hold style. Sans the first time I learned with 5 players and a kitten.

A friend's uncle then shot the moon with a wretched hand, and I have idolized him since.

2008-12-01 15:26:21
162.   silverwidow
Arb deadline...

Locks: Manny Lowe Blake

Good chance: Beimel

No chance: Penny Kent Maddux

I think that's everyone.

2008-12-01 15:27:47
163.   Jacob Burch
159 I think the latter comes into play certainly, but I think bigger systematic leaks (playing too many hands for a number of reasons, not value betting enough, bluffing too much--something a player is convinced is sound but is not) tend to lose people more money, and/or people have a better control of their emotion. This is coming from a middle-level mindset though, where I don't see as much tilt as I used to.
2008-12-01 15:28:19
164.   ToyCannon
Yeah, that is the kind of knowledge that makes playing with people fun. I sound like your brother-in-law, I always like to find the hero in the group.
2008-12-01 15:29:19
165.   ToyCannon
So how many of you poker playing fiends think you could make a good living if you were staked and what would a stake have to be to be able to parlay that into real money?
2008-12-01 15:29:48
166.   Bob Timmermann
When it comes to the Women's College Cup, I'm backing the Buffalo Bills of that sport: UCLA.

I predict a 1-0 loss by the Bruins to North Carolina. And the goal will come on a complete defensive breakdown.

2008-12-01 15:29:55
167.   Tripon
162 No arbitration for Penny? Seemed like a lock for him to decline and sign elsewhere.
2008-12-01 15:30:04
168.   Jacob Burch
164 As was suggested by my idolized uncle, I have become notoriously aggressive in shooting, especially if my patience can build up a sizable "debt" of points where a loss doesn't kill me.

I've tried for years to get friends to play a quarter a point, winner take all with me, and no one has bit. I may have to lower to a dime a point.

2008-12-01 15:30:41
169.   silverwidow
167 Nope. He would make more in arb than if we exercised the option.
2008-12-01 15:31:30
170.   Eric Stephen
I haven't played Euchre, but 500 bares a close resemblance, and I have played that often.

I haven't heard of Kemps before, but I might give that a try.

This summer I started playing 22, which is a fun game for many players except for the fact that losers get kicked out. Not the best to encourage socializing if you are out of the game that others are still playing.

2008-12-01 15:32:17
171.   gibsonhobbs88
106,125 - I'm with 104 - I don't like Joel Myers plus I heard he kind of "stuck the knife" in Sunderland's back! I would like Spiro to be on with Stu as Stu is our last link with Chick and the past. Paul might have been a little bland but he was loyal and hard working and showed a lot of humility and class when he was filling in for Chick when Chick was sick and I thought given a chance, he would have grown into the job and would have had developed a style all his own. I really believe Spiro is the most talented and is the heir apparant to the eventual TV job. I've heard enough of him on the radio and like his energy and style. Joel just comes off as weasily and not trustworthy to me. Just (MHO)!
2008-12-01 15:32:52
172.   Tripon
169 Doubt it, the Dodgers could always low ball him and say he's only worth 2 million or so due to his health problem. The 80% of his current salary only affects players who hasn't incurred enough playing time to be awarded free agency.

No way Penny could get $7 million in arbitration.

2008-12-01 15:33:34
173.   Icaros
I don't think I've ever heard it called "Shooting the Moon" before. I thought it was "Taking All the Cards."
2008-12-01 15:34:21
174.   Jacob Burch
165 I have been staked before and have come out about even. I would have won myself 3k, friend 1k (profit) had that man not filled up on the river, but that's another story.

If we're talking live in Los Angeles, the problem becomes where to begin. LA Casinos are notoriously shrewd on anything below medium stakes--even at $5/$10, they cap the game at 40BB, which essentially assures you a short stack within half an hour unless you catch a hand early. Money can still be made like this, but it's such a different beast than deep stack poker ($10/$20 and higher in LA, cheaper in Vegas and elsewhere) that learning games can be difficult. Part of the stake would have to be undoubtedly learning cost, and most people aren't going to do that.

2008-12-01 15:34:55
175.   Eric Stephen
I always used the term "running it" but a few years ago someone mentioned "shooting the moon."
2008-12-01 15:35:03
176.   bagg4
Not a big deal, but it would be nice is subscription requirements were noted in links to articles...i.e. Baseball Prospectus
2008-12-01 15:37:09
177.   oshea2002
I don't mind posting the article from BP, but it's premium and I'm not sure we're allowed to post that stuff. I guess I don't mind emailing it to people.
2008-12-01 15:37:19
178.   cargill06
165 I'm not sure I'd say probably not. I'd have no interest in finding out, I wouldn't be able to deal with the stresses knowing this is your only income. The only chance I think I'd have is playing lower level games (against bad players IE $0.50/$1 NL) and assuming I can win on average 4 cents a hand, I'd have to play 600 hands an hour to make decent money ($25/hr). That means I'd have to play 6 tables at the same time. That being said, I don't know if I could make 4 cents a hand.
2008-12-01 15:38:49
179.   Jon Weisman
158 - I've been all over it.

173 - I've been completely ignoring the card conversation, but I assume that someone brought up Hearts if shooting the moon is being discussed.

2008-12-01 15:39:32
180.   Tripon
Penn State has a Sheep in lion's clothing.

But James Sheep might not be available for the Jan. 1 Rose Bowl game because the Nittany Lion mascot is facing a DUI charge.

The Daily Collegian reports that Sheep, a senior who serves as the Penn State mascot, was arrested after campus police ordered him out of his car at 3:15 a.m. on Nov. 22.


2008-12-01 15:39:35
181.   trainwreck
I have only heard and used the term "shooting the moon".
2008-12-01 15:41:47
182.   Eric Stephen
Hearts came about when discussing how the careers of John Ritter and Markie Post converged.
2008-12-01 15:42:52
183.   Jacob Burch
178 Like this answer, I do not want at all the middling life of a professional poker player. The Celebrity players are a truly rare breed with extraordinary genius or luck, and can essentially live off the interest and endorsements of one or two major wins. The life of a six-tabling online TAG player doesn't seem appetizing.

That said, the challenge to calm my eager nature and learn patience--and to see that in a semi-professional net profit is very appealing, and something I'm trying to start now that The Paper of Doom is done.

2008-12-01 15:42:52
184.   Jon Weisman
182 - Then I am aflame. Aglow. A-something ...
2008-12-01 15:43:03
185.   JoeyP
Bridge and poker are the best two card games.

Euchre is fun also.

2008-12-01 15:43:14
186.   trainwreck
And Billy Bob Thornton.
2008-12-01 15:44:56
187.   Kevin Lewis

I could never handle the grind needed to be successful. I just can't stand the environment and type of people around the table for that long

2008-12-01 15:46:24
188.   ToyCannon
Running, Shooting the Moon, or any original term used by a family/friend group that would be in violation of rule 1.
2008-12-01 15:47:28
189.   ToyCannon
I thought you read every comment.
2008-12-01 15:49:45
190.   Tripon
According to's Jon Heyman, the Yankees declined to offer arbitration to Type A free agents Andy Pettitte, Bobby Abreu, and Mike Mussina (and all other free agents). Peter Abraham and Ed Price may have had this on the web earlier; it was close.

Wait, all free agents? Seriously? Does this say something about the Yankees financials, or how poorly the Type-A/Type-B system is being dealt out?

2008-12-01 15:50:19
191.   silverwidow
Does anyone care that Albuquerque is a bigger launching pad than Vegas? J-Mac won't do well there, me thinks.
2008-12-01 15:51:18
192.   Tripon
191 He did well in Vegas though. Out of four starts, he pitched well in 3 of them, and got blown out in one game.
2008-12-01 15:52:20
193.   Eric Stephen
More than likely they probably just felt none of the 3 were worth what they might win in arbitration, and that there may have been a decent risk (especially with Pettitte) that the players would accept.
2008-12-01 15:53:00
194.   silverwidow
192 I believe all of his starts were on the road.
2008-12-01 15:55:04
195.   Tripon
194 Yeah, but are there any 'pitcher' parks in the PCL? Or at the ones where McDonald pitched at?
2008-12-01 15:55:09
196.   LogikReader
We Can't Win!

If the Dodgers Shuttle gets low ridership, the program can't justify the lack of demand and has to be discontinued.

If the Dodgers Shuttle gets very high ridership, the program can't justify the lack of operating funds and has to be discontinued.

2008-12-01 15:57:03
197.   silverwidow
195 I'm pretty sure New Orleans is at sea level.
2008-12-01 15:57:13
198.   Kevin Lewis

I was surprised it even got enough numbers to be consider for the next season.

2008-12-01 15:57:20
199.   Tripon
Would the Dodgers be in better shape financially if they stayed in Brooklyn?
2008-12-01 15:57:35
200.   Bob Timmermann
New Orleans is below sea level.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-12-01 15:58:16
201.   LogikReader

By the way, what a bunch of Cheapskates the Dodgers are. $70,000 dollars? How come its so hard to pay a measley $140,000 a year to make fans happier, but they're more than willing to overpay 18 million a year for Andruw Jones? What gives?

2008-12-01 15:58:17
202.   Jacob Burch
193 His shock was more that all 8 were declined. The full list:


2008-12-01 16:00:29
203.   oshea2002
The final AZ hoops recruit is going to SC. Obviously landing Solomon Hill is a big get for us.
2008-12-01 16:01:34
204.   Bob Timmermann
That question can't be answered.

The Dodgers would have suffered great financial problems in the 1960s and 1970s playing in Brooklyn or Queens.

If the Dodgers were there now, they'd probably be raking in money because of increased media revenue.

I suggest we answer easier questions:
1) Would JFK have stopped the Vietnam War?
2) Would RFK have beaten Nixon in 1968?
3) Would Martin Luther have started the Reformation if the Pope would have allowed him to have sex?

2008-12-01 16:06:55
205.   Indiana Jon
My thoughts after speed reading the last 204 comments.

1) I would welcome a trade for Rickie Weeks. If it only cost us Garate and Paul it would be an absolute steal.

2) I think poker is mostly luck.

3) Be careful rejoicing when you get the Pacers announcers on the NBA TV broadcast. I haven't heard the Lakers, but they can't be much worse.

4) I have never heard it called anything other than "shooting the moon".

2008-12-01 16:07:04
206.   Kevin Lewis
Is there a link to the McCourt interview yet?
2008-12-01 16:07:58
207.   CanuckDodger
192 -- All of JMac's AAA starts were on the road, and in parks that aren't that hitter-friendly, like Tacoma and Portland. I am sure that was by design.

Another reason why I respect Stults: he has weathered the insane conditions of pitching in thee PCL southwestern division that I don't think pitching prospects should have to be exposed to anyway. Look at what we did with Kershaw: we skipped him past the hitter-friendly California League completely and then the PCL completely. And yet, he somehow survived the majors. There is a lesson in that. Depending on the environmental conditions (parks, defense), it can be a lot harder to pitch to minor leaguers than it can be to pitch to major leaguers.

2008-12-01 16:09:51
208.   Marty
When I was young, I was convinced I was going to be a professional blackjack player. I'd mastered counting cards, though it was a simple plus/minus method. Then I realized how much work it was. You can't have fun any more, or have drinks and laughs with friends. Also, there really wasn't any money in it.
2008-12-01 16:13:42
209.   Eric Stephen
Only 4 of those would net the Yankees compensation (the aforementioned big 3 plus Pudge).

Declining arb to Giambi, Pavano, Ponson, & Moeller does not prevent them from being able to re-sign with the club.

2008-12-01 16:14:03
210.   underdog
I'm still a bit surprised the Yanks didn't offer arbitration to Abreu, at least, given what it would have brought them back had he refused and the odds are pretty good he would've refused. This makes him and even Pettite seem like slightly more palatable options now. (Darn, now I miss Bronx Banterers)

Btw, doesn't the arbitration process seem a bit like a woman who asks you out for a second date, hoping like hell you decline so that they're not stuck with you for another evening? (Except most of the dates I've been on haven't involved draft picks as consolation prize.)

2008-12-01 16:14:37
211.   ToyCannon
Thank God, Moeller is available. At least if we go the Pettitte route no draft picks.
2008-12-01 16:14:48
212.   underdog
(A few of them that did involve draft picks were real doozies, however.)
2008-12-01 16:16:16
213.   Jon Weisman
189 - 99 percent.
2008-12-01 16:16:34
214.   Eric Stephen
I once was declined a second date, but I was at least happy with the sandwich (pick) I ate instead.

It was a meatball sub.

2008-12-01 16:17:36
215.   underdog
214 Somewhere in there is a Kent Tekulve joke but one has to dig too deep.
2008-12-01 16:19:42
216.   silverwidow
Speaking of JMac, he is the #45 prospect in baseball:

2008-12-01 16:21:46
217.   CanuckDodger
At BP, somebody commenting on Sheehan's trade idea for Weeks doesn't think Xavier Paul or Garate are among the Dodgers' top 30 prospects. I nominate ToyCannon to go straighten that guy out.:)
2008-12-01 16:23:19
218.   ToyCannon
Been a while since our number one prospect was ranked so high. Of course at this time last year DeWitt or Wade were not even top 100 worthy.
2008-12-01 16:24:39
219.   ToyCannon
I'd go but I no longer subscribe to BP until they accept Paypal.
2008-12-01 16:26:10
220.   Jacob Burch
218 Kershaw?
2008-12-01 16:26:42
221.   Tripon
217 The obvious answer is that both Paul and Garate are in the Dodgers top 30 because they traded away their best prospects over the last year.
2008-12-01 16:30:07
222.   silverwidow
218 I think you mean "this low."

That is, of course, if you think he's really our #1 prospect.

2008-12-01 16:30:23
223.   ToyCannon
Maybe I should have said ranked low not high.
2008-12-01 16:33:14
224.   CanuckDodger
221 -- I am pretty sure Paul and Garate rank high enough that the prospects we lost in the last year are irrelevant to whether they would be in the top 30. I think over at TrueBlueLA Paul ranked 11th.
2008-12-01 16:35:12
225.   Jacob Burch
223 It all becomes clear.
2008-12-01 16:36:25
226.   ToyCannon
True, DeJesus or Lambo could slip in below him.

I think the Brewers would be crazy to trade Weeks for that package even if they are both top 30 prospects. I'm surprised you have given up on Weeks so quickly.

2008-12-01 16:38:08
227.   oshea2002
Well, Carroll has decided to spite the Pac 10 and NCAA, USC is wearing their Cardinal jerseys on Saturday, per Carroll's website. It will cost us 1 time out per half. I assume Rick will reciprocate and just burn one on the first play each half.
2008-12-01 16:41:08
228.   Bob Timmermann
But UCLA may need one of those timeouts so they can get an 11th guy on the field for punt coverage while trailing 34-3 late in the 4th quarter.
2008-12-01 16:41:59
229.   underdog
I would actually be intrigued by Rickie Weeks, though only if he came fairly cheaply, and as has been said here don't think the Brewers would do that.

And I like Xavier Paul as a solid 4th outfielder, or he and Young as solid 4th/5th outfielders.

2008-12-01 16:44:03
230.   Tripon
According to's Matthew Leach, the Cardinals declined to offer arbitration to Russ Springer, Braden Looper, and Jason Isringhausen (as well as their other free agents).

Isringhausen as a Type-A FA is so loopy. Ah well, don't have to worry about that now.

2008-12-01 16:45:51
231.   D4P
It has been a long time since I played cards in person with other human beings, but since I stopped playing, I thought of one thing I used to do that a savvy opponent could have used against me that never occurred to me at the time.

I typically arrange my cards by suit, from low to high, clubs, diamonds, spades, hearts moving left to right. Thus, if (for example) I were to play the the 2nd card from the right, and it was a heart, my opponents would know that I had at least one heart left in my hand.

2008-12-01 16:46:21
232.   ToyCannon
Xavier Paul
True Blue Community voting - 10
Baseball Intellect - 10
Canuck - 15 (after deducting Watt)

Garate for me is somewhere around 15-20 and Canuck had him at 27 before he was added to the 40 man roster.

2008-12-01 16:48:02
233.   Tripon
The Detroit Lions have signed wide receiver Keary Colbert and placed wide receiver Mike Furrey on injured reserve.

Now the Trojans are forever linked to 0-16.

2008-12-01 16:49:16
234.   CanuckDodger
226 -- I am in a minority here in thinking batting average is important, especially in assessing a young hitter, because I have more faith in patience and power developing if a young hitter is short in those departments. Two years in a row now Weeks has hit in the .230's. I would be quite damning if a Dodger hitter did that in his age 24 and 25 seasons. And it is not like Weeks can claim to be a defensive specialist to make up for it, the way Hu might be able to compensate defensively for offensive shortcomings. Weeks is an outright defensive liability. So no, I wouldn't even give up Paul and Garate for Weeks.
2008-12-01 16:49:56
235.   ToyCannon
It will be curious after all the arb info is disbursed on who is left as free agents that will cost draft picks.
2008-12-01 16:49:59
236.   D4P
Is Mike Hampton's salary cut (I believe, from $15 mil to $2 mil) the largest in MLB history, in either absolute or percentage terms?
2008-12-01 16:52:09
237.   Bob Timmermann
Are you not counting people who had their salaries cut to 0?
2008-12-01 16:54:24
238.   CanuckDodger
232 -- I would move Garate much higher now, since I have learned some scouting info on Garate since I made up that list. In fact, my list form early Septemeber is now obsolete. After seeing McDonald and Elbert in the majors in September (I now have doubts Elbert will ever be a starter), I have moved Elbert down to #4, and moved JMac up to #2. Lambo is now #1.
2008-12-01 16:54:51
239.   D4P
Correct. I'm not counting such people.
2008-12-01 16:55:01
240.   ToyCannon
He still reminds me of Brandon Philips iin that he's a struggling 2nd baseman who never met expectations and I think whoever gets him, will be rewarded. The skill is there, his Aug/Sept in 2007 are what I'd expect someday. Aug was BABIP fueled but he normalized in Sept and still mashed. He may never be a batting average guy like you like but I'll enjoy the on base skills from a speed guy.
2008-12-01 16:55:36
241.   D4P
BTW: Are we assuming there's a 100% chance Manny and Lowe are offered arbitration?
2008-12-01 16:56:59
242.   trainwreck
We better.
2008-12-01 16:57:40
243.   Jon Weisman
2008-12-01 16:57:49
244.   ToyCannon
So what have you learned? All I have are the great numbers to look at.
2008-12-01 16:58:23
245.   Tripon
241 Part of the Manny trade negotiations is that the Dodgers will offer arbitration to Manny, and he will officially decline them. And I think we'll offer Lowe arbitration, and he'll decline it. Even if he accepts(which I doubt since he's one of the few players where the market has been crazy for him.) He can't make much more of the $9 million he made this year via the arbitration process.
2008-12-01 16:58:44
246.   Bob Timmermann
Bernie Williams went from $12,357,143 in 2005 to $1,500,000 in 2006.

That was a $10.8 million cut, which is not as big of a cut as Hampton's. But still pretty sizeable.

I bet Jason Giambi will take a bigger pay cut than Hampton. Giambi made over $23 million last year.

2008-12-01 17:00:17
247.   Tripon
246 Are you including buy outs though? Giambi got a 4 million buy out just to leave the Yankees.
2008-12-02 10:15:34
248.   briano
Literally out of Left Field: When talking about changes at Dodger Stadium, and since Vero Beach is no longer the Spring home of the Dodgers, let's get rid of the "Think Blue" sign outside left field and instead put up "Dodgertown" in its place. I think it would look very cool and more importantly - relevant.

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