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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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Furcal No Longer Dodgers' Top Priority
2008-12-16 09:29
by Jon Weisman

Rafael Furcal has agreed to terms with his old team, the Atlanta Braves, on a three-year deal, pending a physical (which should hold at least a smidgelet of intrigue). Thus, the Dodgers bid farewell to one of Ned Colletti's better free agent signings. He was the right player, even if he had the wrong physical condition. But I don't have the confidence in him staying healthy with the Dodgers. Staying healthy with another team? Well, that's another story.

Still, I'll be haunted by his key errors in 2007 and 2008. Haunted too much, but haunted nevertheless.

Comments (371)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-16 09:39:11
1.   JRSarno
I hope Hu is our shortstop. I will enjoy watching him not hit the ball. But at least he'll be healthy doing it.
2008-12-16 09:39:11
2.   Tripon
Lets trade for an Izturis or Aybar brother.
2008-12-16 09:39:28
3.   bferb
Well that's a shame. I just hope we dont panic and overpay to sign some mediocre veteran like Cabrera
2008-12-16 09:41:35
4.   JRSarno
Why panic? We did the most sensible thing a team could do this offseason, in light of all other potential free agent signings. We locked up the Beard for 3 years.
2008-12-16 09:41:36
5.   silverwidow
Ned has already said he'll go defense-first at SS if he can get a power hitter.
2008-12-16 09:42:13
6.   Indiana Jon
Furcal to the Braves? That's a surprise. I have to be the happiest guy on this blog today. Now we can focus on Manny and a pitcher like we should. I would still favor Sheets, but Lowe or Johnson would work I guess.
2008-12-16 09:44:04
7.   GoBears
Good. I liked Furcal a lot, but the only way I wanted him back as Dodger was on a 1-yr, incentive-laden contract. Since he could do better than that on the market, good for him.

Were the Dodgers the Yankees, for whom overpaid, underperforming free agents are affordable mistakes, then why not sign Furcal for 3 years, and when he gets injured, go to plan B (Hu)? But the Dodgers can't afford too many more free agent mistakes (at least not expensive ones). They need save their money for higher priorities than SS, as Jon said yesterday.

So, good. Find an OFer to bench Pierre, bat Kemp leadoff, and hit Hu 8th.

I can't believe Colletti would actually like that plan, but I do.

2008-12-16 09:44:17
8.   Eric Stephen
Sorry about 349 in the last thread. I couldn't resist the cheap joke.
2008-12-16 09:46:33
9.   cargill06
6 Colletti is on record saying Lowe and Sheets will not be targeted this offseason by the Dodgers.
2008-12-16 09:47:09
10.   MC Safety
6 So happy that you forgot Derek Lowe said he's not going to be a Dodger like eight times already this offseason.
2008-12-16 09:48:06
11.   GoBears
In line with my comments about who can afford the risk of an expensive injury-prone free agent, I would go after Sheets if I ran the Yankees. But for the Dodgers, I prefer Lowe. We know he's good in DS, and with a defensive middle infield that is actually, you know, good at defense, he'd be even better. And he's never hurt. Yeah, he's getting older, but I'd sign him for 3 or 4 years.

But Colletti seems to have closed that door. Colletti is pretty good at not signaling the moves he actually DOES make, but I can't remember a case where he closed a door and opened a window for a player.

2008-12-16 09:49:38
12.   kinbote
I like the suggestion from earlier of sending Andruw to Atlanta to be with his friend. Too bad most Braves' fans were happy to see him go.

I know I don't have the historical scope that many here do, but it's really hard to think of a less popular Dodger.

2008-12-16 09:49:53
13.   GoBears
I'm not at all interested in Randy Johnson, for the same reasons. Expensive. Injury Risk. Even if it's only for 1 year.
2008-12-16 09:50:23
14.   Indiana Jon
8 9 Oh I'm not saying what I think will happen. I'm just saying what we should do. What I really expected this off season was Blake, Furcal and someone like Pettite or Garland. Although Sheets would be the smart move, what I really expect from here on out is Manny and someone like Garland.
2008-12-16 09:50:30
15.   JoeyP



Thats one poor hitting IF, & an OF that is solid yet not spectacular. Manny's almost a must now?

2008-12-16 09:50:49
16.   kinbote
11 Does defenestration count? (Did I beat Bob to that one?)
2008-12-16 09:51:36
17.   bferb
It sounds funny saying this, but Oliver Perez is pretty much the best available option, but will likely get a deal for much higher than he is worth, and I hope the Dodgers are not the ones to make that mistake.
2008-12-16 09:51:43
18.   JRSarno
"They need save their money for higher priorities than SS, as Jon said yesterday."

Save their money for what?

2008-12-16 09:53:08
19.   Bob Timmermann
At a hotel I was staying in Prague earlier this year, there were stickers on the windows telling guests not to open them.
2008-12-16 09:53:14
20.   Tripon
12 Some Braves fans still like Andruw Jones. We should do it, if only to get rid of a distraction like Jones.

Of course, we could cut the guy right now, but that's not going to happen.

2008-12-16 09:53:29
21.   Jon Weisman
8 - But you didn't write 349.
2008-12-16 09:53:40
22.   oshea2002
15 - If I'm Boras I'm telling Ned not to call me, ever, unless the offer isn't 4 years and at least $100.

This is the strategy I thought McCourt would go for, Manny and no one else. It's a way to reduce payroll and appease fans. It's a risky strategy, but he knows Manny will come back as long as they offer the most money. If they are prepared to do that, then I think the offseason is playing out exactly as they planned. If they are not, then it's risky b/c it's a dice roll letting everyone else go.

2008-12-16 09:53:43
23.   Eric Stephen
Perhaps Manny and a starting pitcher (or two)?
2008-12-16 09:55:19
24.   Eric Stephen
A ha! I wrote 350. My streak of unbanned posts continues! (about as impressive as Darren "I will not dive for that ball" Lewis's consecutive games without an error streak in the OF)
2008-12-16 09:55:56
25.   CodyS
I can't get over the feeling that McCourt faces major personal financial difficulty. It would be pretty attractive to just run the $60million team out there and wait for the 3+million people to show up.
2008-12-16 09:56:00
26.   Tripon
Frank McCourt and Ned Coletti strike me as crappy card players.
2008-12-16 09:57:45
27.   silverwidow
Pierre LF
Maza 2B
Ethier RF
Kemp CF
Loney 1B
DeWitt 3B
Ardoin C

Is this our "B" lineup?

2008-12-16 09:58:07
28.   Bob Timmermann
The linked article hints that Furcal will move to second with Escobar staying at shortstop with Johnson playing left field.
2008-12-16 09:58:33
29.   Tripon

Wow, Moyer has incentives to reach $20 million in two years with his new Phillies contract.

2008-12-16 09:59:11
30.   old dodger fan
19 Was it in English?
2008-12-16 09:59:49
31.   Louis in SF
Wonder if Scotty Boras is now thinking, "Dodgers have saved some money by not signing Furcal, they should have more money available for my client Manny"
2008-12-16 10:00:53
32.   cargill06
I'm not at all interested in Randy Johnson, for the same reasons. Expensive. Injury Risk. Even if it's only for 1 year.

Randy only wants $6MM I believe, that's dirt cheap for a pitcher of his calibur. I know father time isn't on his side but what makes people believe he is such an injury risk? 2007 was really the only year the last 5 years where he missed most of the year due to injury. starting in 2004 his IP look like this, 245.2, 225.2, 205,56.2,184.

2008-12-16 10:02:31
33.   DaDoughboy
I, for one, would love to have the Big Unit for a one year deal. He's a lot better then just a patch job, he's competitive as all heck, and he can take the place of the team HOF-crotchety-veteran (now that Kent is gone).
2008-12-16 10:03:07
34.   Bob Timmermann
Yes, it was in English. My Czech is pretty weak. Or nonexistent. I couldn't even figure out how to say "hello" or "where is the bathroom?" so I just grunted at people and walked around the city with soiled clothes.
2008-12-16 10:03:51
35.   Tripon
33 Even better, the Dodgers can give him a Clemens type deal when he was with the Astros, and have him only show up on days he pitches.
2008-12-16 10:03:52
36.   Humma Kavula
Well that's an issue that took care of itself.

Now, I pose this to the throng:

Agree or Disagree: Manny Ramirez -- and ONLY Manny Ramirez -- is the difference between the 2009 Dodgers being Fun or Not Fun.

2008-12-16 10:04:42
37.   ToyCannon
Given the names showing up in the Bernard Madoff scam who knows what is happening in the financial markets and who will be effected.

You may never have even heard of Madoff and still lost money. Where there is one ponzi scam you will be sure to find others.

2008-12-16 10:05:23
38.   old dodger fan
Let's see now- So far we have re signed Blake and added Loretta.

On the other side we have said good-by to:

I'm seeing a trend here.

2008-12-16 10:05:40
39.   Humma Kavula
34 On the other hand, beer costs something like 50 cents there.
2008-12-16 10:06:16
40.   cargill06
Randy Johnson 07-08
K/9IP- 9.2
BB/9IP- 2.1
HR/9IP- 1.1

Those are fantastic periphals. I really can't see the argument for not spending $6MM on his. Those numbers are in HR happy BOB or whatever they call their field now a days. Dodger stadium would surely kill some of those HR's.

2008-12-16 10:06:37
41.   68elcamino427
The unit has gel injected into his right knee joint (landing leg) at least twice a season - since he was with the Yanks (no cartlige there anymore).
Bad lower back limited his outings last year.
Koufax! Bet his arm's pretty fresh!
I'd rather "give" Sandy $6,000,000.00
He might be good for one or two innings a homestand.
It sure would create a stir.
2008-12-16 10:06:57
42.   bferb
27 You would have to insert Jason Repko and/or Delwyn Young for Kemp and Ethier
2008-12-16 10:07:03
43.   Kevin Lewis

The NFL was bad to me, poker was good, Craps was better.

Overall a nice weeked

2008-12-16 10:07:15
44.   Indiana Jon
34 I had the pleasure of dealing with a group of Mongolians during my trip to Afghanistan. That's exactly how they communicated for the whole year.
2008-12-16 10:07:54
45.   ToyCannon
Disagree, but it would be more fun with a happy Manny. An unhappy Manny, disgruntled Jones, and a whiny Pierre could make this a very unfun team.
2008-12-16 10:08:33
46.   silverwidow
27 Scratch Maza from that. I somehow forgot that we signed Loretta.
2008-12-16 10:09:47
47.   ToyCannon
Even with all that he still pitches very effectively. No one makes more sense to me then Randy Johnson on a one year deal.
2008-12-16 10:10:03
48.   Tripon
37 It would be funny if some of the Federal bailout money was given to Bernard Madoff ponzi scam.
2008-12-16 10:11:08
49.   MC Safety
36 Agree. But I'm no fun.
2008-12-16 10:11:08
50.   cargill06
Someone needs to tell Rome that his rooting for a winless team bit wasn't funny the 1st time he did it, why would it be funny the 10,238th time?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-16 10:13:22
51.   GMac In The 909
If this offseason continues on its current path, I will not be attending opening day at the Stadium for the first time in more than a decade.

In fact, it looks more and more likely that I only will be watching the games on TV.

2008-12-16 10:16:09
52.   Tripon
50 The Lions going 0-16 would hopefully force that team to do something other than be totally horrible.

They have nobody else but to blame for that mess. The Ford family were the ones to keep Matt Millen in power for so long when it was clear he had no idea what he was doing.

2008-12-16 10:20:24
53.   oshea2002
Heyman update - Yankees seemingly giving up on Teixeria and want Manny instead.

2008-12-16 10:20:33
54.   silverwidow
I'm really looking forward to this season, to be honest. The team may not be "great" but will be fun to watch.

*Kershaw's first full season
*McDonald's expanded role
*DeJesus' possible debut
*Hu's stunning defense
*Kemp's probable leap into 30/30 territory
*Loney and Ethier producing solid .800+ OPS
*Billingsley solidifying his status as a #1
*Martin becoming an OBP machine


2008-12-16 10:23:38
55.   tjdub
Nothing I have seen or read in the last few weeks has changed my opinion that in order to complete in a week division the Dodgers only need target a power hitting LF and a short-term SP. I would have liked Furcal to stay on a 2-3 yr deal, but I can't say I disagree with letting him walk when the tenure and price got too high. My hoped for scenario now is Manny plus Unit and leave everything else alone.
2008-12-16 10:24:31
56.   CajunDodger
I take responsibility for that, and it is the first time I have been stricken.

I've been spending too much time on LSU and SEC blogs...

2008-12-16 10:25:46
57.   oshea2002
56 - is there anything to the Dewayne Walker to LSU rumors?
2008-12-16 10:25:52
58.   CajunDodger
Looks like lots of second round picks for us...
2008-12-16 10:27:55
59.   68elcamino427
Ok - you've won me over.

Randy Johnson:

2007 - IP 56.7 - ERA+ 123
2008 - IP 184 - ERA+ 117

Randy Johnson - #4 starter.

2008-12-16 10:28:24
60.   Disabled List
If the Yankees want Manny, then they're going to get Manny, end of discussion. There's no way McCourt can compete with the Steinbrenners.

If 53 is true, expect a CC-style untoppable preemptive strike offer in the next couple of days.

2008-12-16 10:29:13
61.   CajunDodger
I have some good friends who are, shall we say, very good givers to the Tiger Athletic Foundation. I have not heard this through them. They have heard it directly from the Athletic Department that LSU is focused on Tennessee's former Defensive Coordinator and an unnamed candidate who can't talk to us until after the bowl season.

Money buys access to the AD in the South...

2008-12-16 10:32:55
62.   oshea2002
60 - yeah, they could go 4 / 120 and end it quickly.
2008-12-16 10:33:58
63.   Humma Kavula
If Johnson is available for one year, $6,000,000, then absolutely, the Dodgers should take a flier on him.

But I would think that there would be a lot of teams that would give him a 1/$6 contract. Which means that if you actually want that guy, it'll cost you more than 1/$6, and then all of a sudden it's not as good an idea. It's tricky.

2008-12-16 10:37:14
64.   oshea2002
In the "at least there's good news for half of us" department, Seto turned down Sark and is staying at USC.
2008-12-16 10:37:45
65.   natepurcell

I'd go one year 10 million...

2008-12-16 10:40:17
66.   Jacob Burch
36 Baring a Bison or Kershaw monster breakout, this idea is an unequivocal 'yes' for me. Especially if we sign O-Cab instead.
2008-12-16 10:40:55
67.   Xeifrank
With the loss of Furcal, it's going to be tough for Colletti to put together a team that projects to 86+ wins. I currently have the team at 77.7 wins with two relief pitchers, two starting pitchers, a backup 1B, 3B anc C left to go. Even with signing Manny, two league average SPs and a decent reliever I fail to find any math that gets us to 86. I get us anywhere from 83-85 depending on what we get. 85 with Manny and 83+ with something that's left over in LF. It will take some creativity from Ned (a good trade) to make us the clear cut favorite in the NL West. I'm not counting on that. Luckily we play in the NL West were the Padres are bailing water, the Rockies are mediocre, the Giants are improving but still a ways away and the Diamondbacks are good but not great.
vr, Xei
2008-12-16 10:42:11
68.   underdog
I posted in previous thread but will repeat here, too. The Dodgers did the right thing in letting Raffy go, even though it may open some other cans of worms.

WHat they should do the rest of the offseason?

Re-sign Manny. Prioritize this now. We need his offense, and will take whatever moping may come down the road.
Sign Randy Wolf (or Randy Johnson for one year).
If they want veteran relief, sign Braden Looper or one guy along those lines.
Stop there, and lock away the keys to the trademobile before Colletti gets itchy again.

Prepare for spring training. Bring in more kids to compete.

2008-12-16 10:43:24
69.   Xeifrank
Randy Johnson is worth abour $8Mil per year.
I have him at 1.6 WAR (1.6 x 4.8) + .4
vr, Xei
2008-12-16 10:44:23
70.   ToyCannon
The can of worms is the problem.
2008-12-16 10:45:23
71.   JoeyP
Kemp's probable leap into 30/30 territory

He'll have to have a big leap in power.
1, 18, 27, 17, 14, 18 are his homers per year since 2003.

2008-12-16 10:45:33
72.   GoBears
Well, for $6M, I guess I could live with Johnson. I was figuring he'd demand more like twice that.

And why wouldn't he? If he's such a good deal at $6M, why wouldn't other teams see that and bid the price up? Has he insisted that he'll only play for one of a small handful of teams? Would he take a 1-yr deal?

He looks close to broken down to me. For a cheap year, sure, go for it. But not an expensive year, or multiple years.

Any insight on whether he and Torre got along (would both want a reprise)?

2008-12-16 10:49:06
73.   Harold M Johnson
36 Agree.
2008-12-16 10:52:33
74.   JoeyP
If Ned/McCourt are thinking about punting 2009, it might be a hard sell to convince them that signing Manny (and improving a 77 win team to 82 wins) would be worth it.

Sure the division is awful.
But I think if Manny were the difference in being a championship team & not, that the Dodgers would make a much stronger offer. If this team will be average with Manny & bad without it, Ned/McCourt are less likely to pull the trigger.

2008-12-16 10:53:27
75.   oshea2002
68 - the one problem is everyone knows this now. Manny's price is going up, and if the Yankees are in it, it skyrocketed. It's going to take over $100 million IMO.
2008-12-16 10:55:10
76.   hernari
I'm seeing 7, 10, 18 HR totals for his last 3 big league seasons. IMO these totals are only relevant at this point.
2008-12-16 10:59:59
77.   blue22
75 - Just because it's obvious that the Dodgers are desperate, it doesn't mean that the price is inflating. You still need an alternative market for Manny. As someone said earlier, if the Yanks indeed are in, they win. There's no way that LA competes with even a baseline offer from the Yankees. I guess the one wildcard is the Angels, but Tex needs to be resolved first.

I think Ned is going about it the right way (with both Manny and Furcal) - stick to your guns on contract length. Perhaps the dollars are negotiable, but going beyond 3 years for either of those guys is a mistake.

2008-12-16 11:01:31
78.   cargill06
67 Xei, you never answered the question I posted to you a couple days back. The team constructed as is has a very good chance to match last years team OPS according to Marcels projections, wouldn't that equal the same amount of runs as last years team? We're looking to replace 646.2 IP of a 4.08 ERA (Maddux, Penny, Lowe, Saito, Proctor, Loaiza, Park, Saito, JJJ, Falkenborg, Brazabon, Sturtze, Beimel) if we could replace that with increased workloads of McDonald, Kershaw, Elbert, Stults and a couple of signed pitchers why can't this team match the pythag record of 87-75 from last year?
2008-12-16 11:01:49
79.   Tripon
NEW YORK – Coca-Cola Co. will begin selling products made with a new zero-calorie sweetener despite no official nod from the government, but rival PepsiCo Inc. said Monday it won't follow suit.

Bleh. But I guess this means that they're phasing out High-Corn fructose(which can only be a good thing.) But I want real sugar!

2008-12-16 11:05:10
80.   Sean P

Yeah , but that's with 166, 311, & 657 PAs respectively. Kemps's IsoP has actually declined over his first three seasons: .195, .178, .168.

2008-12-16 11:05:15
81.   ToyCannon
Even those trends don't look like a 30 home run guy.

The amount of money being talked about for Teixeira is staggering for a 1st baseman.

2008-12-16 11:05:22
82.   underdog
Huh, this is interesting -- from the LA Times Dodger blog (as pointed to on MLBTR):

>>Furcal's agent Paul Kinzer says there's no agreement yet. He says that if Furcal chose right now, it'd be Atlanta. However, Kinzer will call the Dodgers today to give them a final chance to sign Furcal. Furcal will probably accept an offer today, and it'll be the Braves or Dodgers. <<

So it's not done yet.

Oh, I'm so fickle! I want Furcal, then I don't, now I do again! It's not you, it's me!

2008-12-16 11:06:27
83.   Xeifrank
78. That's not how I put a number on player/team wins. I have no idea what your numbers look like and how you have resolved playing time and what your methodology is for converting to runs and wins. I showed my work as to how I came up with my numbers, that's really all I can comment on regarding your question.
vr, Xei
2008-12-16 11:07:51
84.   Tripon
82 Wow, somebody is going to have egg on their faces. The Braves if they allow Furcal to leave now, or Furcal and his agent if the Braves get frustrated and pull their offer.
2008-12-16 11:09:22
85.   SG6
If Dodgers go with that "B" lineup to start the season, what are the odds some member of the press (or fan incognito) throws their shoes at McCourt?
2008-12-16 11:09:30
86.   blue22
82 - Part of me says bring me Unit, Manny, and Furcal - price be damned! It's definitely not the rational part of me. I just want some (those) players though!
2008-12-16 11:10:01
87.   hernari
80 So in theory he will hit less homers this year. Does anyone really believe that will happen or is this an example of stats not telling the whole story?
2008-12-16 11:10:07
88.   Kuo-fax
If the yanks go after Manny, I'd like to see us sign Dunn or Abreu. It seems to me like the Dodgers are focusing on development, trusting the kids, and staying away from injury-prone players.

I can understand not committing to Furcal, we've been burned so many times with too much money on the DL. Kind of refreshing to see them learning, if thats whats going on.

If we do stay away from signing any type A free agents, we could stand to replenish the farm with six picks in the first two rounds (assuming Manny goes to Yanks, and we get 2nd rounder).

Thats pretty exciting, in itself. I'm always glad to see a strong farm system, even if it hurts in the short term.

I know this is kind of repeating Jon's post from before, but just weighing in another opinion.

2008-12-16 11:13:27
89.   Indiana Jon
76 That's a little misleading. He is averaging about 20 HR per 600 at bats, and with a full season pretty much guaranteed, along with being a year older and wiser, I see no reason why he couldn't jump to 30.
2008-12-16 11:13:37
90.   CajunDodger
I think that all of us can agree that long term deals of five or more years for pitchers is risky and can border on ludicrous.

Has anyone done any research on 5+ year deals for hitters? I think that Colletti and McCourt are right to try and bring in pitchers on deals no longer than three years, but I can think of many hitters who have earned their paycheck through at least 75% of their deals. (A-Rod, Manny, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Pujols, Ortiz)

I know that there are many that have done poorly (Mo Vaughn, Todd Helton, Albert Belle), but I can think of almost none who have produced at MVP-caliber levels on a 2-3 year deal.

In the end you want payroll flexibility to get big players or sign the ones you have to long term deals. If you don't do either, what is the point in saving money unless your motive is to simply make money? Is McCourt going to turn into Donald Sterling? Has he already?

2008-12-16 11:14:24
91.   Tripon
25 homers, 40 steals for Kemp next year! No statical analysis, just my rotund gut.
2008-12-16 11:15:41
92.   Tripon
Jerry Crasnick says it'd be a three-year, $30MM deal with a fourth-year vesting option. However, Kinzer will call the Dodgers today to give them a final chance to sign Furcal. Furcal will probably accept an offer today, and it'll be the Braves or Dodgers.

2008-12-16 11:17:19
93.   Jacob Burch
79 In theory this means a disolving of Nutri-Sweet/Splenda, not HFCS. These new drinks are meant to be for its diet line of sodas. There's always Mexican Coke for real sugar lovers.
2008-12-16 11:17:36
94.   bferb
90 I believe he is already Sterling. McCourt's primary asset is the Dodgers and he wants to live in multi-multi million dollar houses. Put two and two together
2008-12-16 11:18:02
95.   Tripon
93 Mexican Coke is too expensive to drink on a daily basis. :(
2008-12-16 11:18:34
96.   Indiana Jon
82 92 You guys are trying to ruin my good mood.
2008-12-16 11:19:32
97.   Eric Stephen
I can talk myself into a 3/$30m deal for Furcal. If he earns the 4th year by reaching some set goal of games or plate appearances, even better!
2008-12-16 11:20:00
98.   Indiana Jon
93 Most prefer Columbian.
2008-12-16 11:20:12
99.   El Lay Dave
91 Occupational hazard, I presume?
2008-12-16 11:20:18
100.   kinbote
Is Hiram Bocachica available?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-16 11:22:02
101.   Tripon

Heyman says the Nats are chasing after Dunn, Manny, and Orlando Hudson if they miss out on Texieria.

2008-12-16 11:23:09
102.   Tripon
100 Re-signed with his Japanese team last I heard.
2008-12-16 11:24:03
103.   Eric Stephen
I wouldn't say Helton has done poorly...yet. He kind of plummeted in 2008 though. When his contract starts to sting is the next 3 years, as Helton is still owed at least $56.9 million (including the $4.6m buyout of his $23m option in 2012 for his age 38 season)
2008-12-16 11:25:25
104.   Eric Stephen
One of favorite subtle parts of The Office this season was a few episodes ago, when Michael was in the break room pouring sugar into his Diet Coke can.
2008-12-16 11:26:35
105.   Indiana Jon
I can't believe that in 6 days, Steve Garvey will be 60 years old! I can't be getting old. I still feel young!
2008-12-16 11:27:33
106.   bhsportsguy
68 Problem is that there are no more kids to compete outside of probably the top 5 players.

If Abreau is healthy, he, Hu and Dewitt will probably battle for 2 infield spots

DeJesus will get a chance to show what he can do but short of a complete flop by Hu and more injuries to Abreau, I think he better make sure he goes to Albq. instead of Las Vegas in April.

Right now, the starting rotation is Billingsley, Kuroda, Kershaw with Schmidt, Stults, McDonald, and possibly Kuo (though I still think he is going to be the setup guy or split time at closer). I am sure the Dodgers will sign 1-2 starting pitchers before the end of January.

The bullpen could be an all-Dodger farm system group, Broxton, Kuo, Troncoso, Wade, Elbert and McDonald. Combined, they may make less than Joe Beimel might if and when he signs with a team.

Catching will probably be Martin and someone like Ellis, though a veteran backstop is always a possibility.

The Dodgers have 6 outfielders on their 40-man roster that if all healthy, would have to be on their 25 man roster when the season starts, Kemp, Ethier, Pierre, Jones, Young and Repko. If they sign Manny or another outfielder, you would have to think that either Pierre and/or Jones has to go with a lot of money because they just don't have the room.

I am not sure why they tendered a contract to Repko, he very well could be the first one to be waived since I think Young showed Torre that he can be a decent pinch-hitter.

2008-12-16 11:27:56
107.   Disabled List
There are few things I find as ridiculous as the discussions about Coke w/ HFCS vs. Coke w/ sugar. I have a couple of friends who swear by the sugared Coke, and talk about it like it's fine wine. I've been to Mexico, I've had both, and I couldn't care less about either.

It's Coca-Cola, people. Just a soda.

2008-12-16 11:28:04
108.   silverwidow
104 Speaking of The Office, this has been the funniest season since 2005-06.

Just wondering what happened to Todd Packer??

2008-12-16 11:29:10
109.   bhsportsguy
106 Actually, the infield portion was written with the idea that the Dodgers sign a shortstop, if they don't, you could have Hu, Abreau, DeJesus, and DeWitt battle for 3 spots, including starting SS and 2B.
2008-12-16 11:30:44
110.   silverwidow
106 This reminds me: Repko still has one option left, believe or not.

2004: Contract purchased
2005: Option #1
2006: Spent the year either DL'd or on the big league team
2007: Spent the entire year DL'd
2008: Option #2

2008-12-16 11:32:09
111.   CajunDodger
I fully expect a deal involving Ethier or Young before the offseason is through. Repko represents the best cheap defender should Jones hit the rocks on the cliff he fell off of last season.

One way or another, I think that there is a trade coming...

2008-12-16 11:32:35
112.   Tripon
108 Hopefully died a painful death. Todd Packer never worked as a character for me.
2008-12-16 11:33:34
113.   Harold M Johnson
112 I loved David Brent's friend (can't remember his name) who they based Packer's character on, but I agree that Packer kind of left something to be desired. I like the idea of the character though.
2008-12-16 11:37:21
114.   bhsportsguy
110 Okay, that makes sense. No wonder they kept him. Well I hopes he likes New Mexico.
2008-12-16 11:39:01
115.   Tripon
Isn't Repko also eligible for salary arbitration? How does that work?
2008-12-16 11:39:57
116.   LoneStar7
If we are purposely dumping players and making no attemp at any FAs just so we can sign Manny, I will be disappointing.

yes i love Man Ram, but not at the expense of not developing a solid well rounded team. I know this years FA group was thin, and very expensive so I'm just hoping that Manny keeps us around and we go for some miraculous splash at the deadline.

I'm also ok with in a sense rebuilding around the youth this year, I can't complain really, I finally saw the Dodgers win a playoff series, and i know it makes me sound like some pathetic small market fan, but if we never get to the mountain top in my lifetime, loney's grandslam and that final strikeout of soriano to beat the cubs are wonderful memories.

2008-12-16 11:40:41
117.   Eric Stephen
He accumulated a lot of MLB service time while on the DL.
2008-12-16 11:40:59
118.   silverwidow
115 Yeah, he'll get a big league salary playing AAA ball.
2008-12-16 11:41:30
119.   Tripon

Mets top 11 prospects. Fernando Martinez, CF heads the list.

2008-12-16 11:42:14
120.   Tripon
117 118 So Repko doesn't have to sign a split contract?
2008-12-16 11:46:04
121.   silverwidow
120 Split contracts are just for non-arb eligibles, I believe.
2008-12-16 11:49:28
122.   LoneStar7
oh and speaking of the office, i think 4 and 5 have been incredibly sub par to 1,2, and 3. Season five is relying way to much on plot, and leaving us on little cliff hangers every week.

the beauty of especially 1 and 2 is that you can watch any episode in the series and the writing is so great that each episode is histerical on its own.

Actually I'd say the first moment where we see the Jim and Pam story became a developing relationship is that kiss they share in the final episode of season 2 "Casino Night".

Not to say that I havent enjoyed every minute of the office, but looking at some of the classics from earlier seasons vs. the newer episodes one can see a big difference in quality.

oh and I do think packer worked in VERY small doses

2008-12-16 11:53:26
123.   Sam DC
85 I confess, that made me laugh.
2008-12-16 11:59:34
124.   bhsportsguy
Interesting, Tim Sullivan from the SD Union says that the Padres are operating with no expectation of getting any more money from their ownership so they really need to trade Peavy to free up some payroll to make other moves.

That said, they won't and can't give him away (and Peavy's no-trade clause limits them too) but they would like some more flexibility to operate.

2008-12-16 12:00:26
125.   jasonungar07
What I wanted at start of offseason was to

dump Jones
dump Pierre
Sign Manny
Replace Lowe

2008-12-16 12:00:45
126.   Eric Enders
122 I absolutely agree with that. I think we may look back on things later and find that Ed Helms joining the cast was the moment The Office jumped the shark.
2008-12-16 12:01:15
127.   Eric Stephen
120 ,121
I think anyone with options left still signs a split contract. I couldn't find anything specific in the CBA (other than the minor league minimum salary is $65,000 for players with any MLB service time).

I emailed Diamond Leung to see if he could shed some light on this.

2008-12-16 12:04:24
128.   Harold M Johnson
124 If the Dodgers can get him for something reasonable that would be a best possible outcome for them.

Although maybe the Braves will jump back in once they sign Furcal?

2008-12-16 12:06:16
129.   blue22
126 - I'm not happy with the return of Toby. The jokes seem forced and recycled there.
2008-12-16 12:07:29
130.   bferb
128 I would agree. I'm guessing they will re-reverse their stance on Yunel Escobar if they resign Furcal and try to use him as the key chip.
2008-12-16 12:08:10
131.   Humma Kavula
74 I've been thinking about this point, as you can probably guess by the question I asked in 36 .

There are two ways to look at failing to sign Manny.

One is that the Dodgers are going to rebuild -- that despite being in a weak division in 2009, the team has too many holes to compete this year. By punting 2009, the argument goes, they can put themselves in a better position to compete in 2010 and beyond.

If that is what the Dodgers are doing, they're doing a remarkably poor job of selling it. We can get on board with rebuilding if the plan is, say, to chase some big free agent bat in 2010 (that said, I haven't looked at the lists and don't know if such a bat exists), or if Lambo/other Dodger youngsters are seen as the future. Even just talking up the current crop of kids, showing faith that all the youngsters -- including Hu, Broxton, and others who have been given backhanded compliments in the press lately -- would be helpful in that regard.

But that's not what they're selling. They're still talking like the team can compete this year, but when we look at the team we're skeptical. And it makes me wonder if they're not rebuilding at all, but merely putting out second-rate product in order to maximize profits. That's a harsh charge, but the idea is so offensive to me. And until the message starts to change, that's what I feel is happening.

74 's question -- If they're punting 2009, shouldn't they punt on Manny? My answer -- I guess -- but then you also have to tell me WHY your'e punting on 2009 and remind me of all the things that will make 2009 so great beyond winning ball games. Otherwise, you just look like you're cheap, and that -- that's no fun.

2008-12-16 12:08:27
132.   Harold M Johnson
126 What? Ed Helms is hilarious. I still enjoy the office even though it's not as funny as season 2-3 (which I liked best). The thing I don't enjoy watching is Jim and Pam. Boring.
2008-12-16 12:12:38
133.   Tripon
132 I initially thought that the Jim and Pam relationship would somehow spin into their own series with the spin off, but now it seems they're just going to have a perfectly boring marriage.
2008-12-16 12:14:20
134.   GoBears
74 Punting on 2009 is an idea worth considering, but there is no way that McCourt, and especially Colletti are considering it. Just no way. The only way I could see that happening would be if they were to sign Ramirez for ridiculous money, and then see him suffer a season-ending injury. But even then, I bet they'd trade prospects for mediocre veterans "who've been there" to keep pushing without adding payroll.
2008-12-16 12:15:10
135.   JoeyP
132- Exactly.
Office should have stuck to the Seinfeld protocol--> No plot, just a comedy sketch each episode.

Once they injected storylines into their series, it went down hill.

2008-12-16 12:15:58
136.   GoBears
133 Maybe, but I think the writers are too smart to let them get married. Maybe in the series finale, whenever that will be.

Unless the plan is for Michael to move in with them.

2008-12-16 12:16:02
137.   underdog
Yeah, I find the Michael vs. Toby rivalry thing totally played out at this point, and can't enjoy any of that. Michael just comes off as cruel and obsessive, rather than funny. The wedding planning involving Ed Helms has mostly been funny to me, but they need to cut to the inevitable chase there, in what has to be a totally doomed marriage. It just feels like there's more cruel behavior, and less laughs, this season, imho. I'm much more enjoying 30 Rock at this point.
2008-12-16 12:16:58
138.   trainwreck
I like how we won't go above 2 years for our top priority.

I can't wait till Ned is fired after this season.

2008-12-16 12:19:09
139.   Louis in SF

The free agents for 2010 are not that good Matt Holiday and Adrian Beltre are the two best players out there. Both are Boras clients. I don't think the Dodgers are trying to rebuild, and based on what I saw available in 2010, they will need alot more talent or all of their kids are going to have to have great seasons if they want to build a championship team.

2008-12-16 12:19:40
140.   bhsportsguy
131 The problem is that you have $43-44M invested in 3 players who may or may not have any impact in 2009.

So how do you sell it.

When I received my last promo piece (last week) from the Dodgers, there was an article about the young players (Martin, Ethier, Kemp, Loney, Broxton, Billingsley, Kershaw, DeWitt and Wade) with mentions of Young, Elbert, McDonald, Troncoso, Hu, and Kuo.

I think they have been up front about saying that those players are the future of the club.

I think if they were able to bring back Manny and Furcal, then sign a couple of 4th-5th starters, they would close up shop.

That's been the plan (so to speak) for the last few weeks and until one or both of those players is no longer available, it will remain that way.

2008-12-16 12:21:54
141.   bhsportsguy
138 Why do you believe he will be fired?

What could possibly happen in 2009 that would lead him to not have an extension granted?

2008-12-16 12:23:02
142.   bhsportsguy
138 Also, and again you can't go by them too much because these experts also liked the Jones and Schmidt deals but most baseball people think going beyond 3 years for Manny is crazy.
2008-12-16 12:23:27
143.   Tripon
141 More like not retained. Ned Coletti's on his last year of his contract. If a trip to the NLCS doesn't make McCourt offer an extension, nothing short of a world series win will.
2008-12-16 12:23:46
144.   oshea2002
138 - that part makes no sense, I agree. Nothing Ned says or does makes any sense though.
2008-12-16 12:24:37
145.   bferb
139 I wish we had traded for Beltre somehow. Boras clients in their walk-year always have much better than expected seasons
2008-12-16 12:25:27
146.   trainwreck
Because we won't be good enough for the playoffs and the public will not be happy.
2008-12-16 12:25:36
147.   GoBears
135 I wouldn't state that as a rule. Usually, I prefer episodic shows, so that if I miss one or three, I'm not lost. But if the writing is really good (Wire, Sopranos) then writing a 13hr movie every year is a winning formula. Different shows try different combinations of story arcs and stand-alones, and some combinations work and others don't.

For procedurals (Law & Order, House), I definitely prefer that each episode stand alone. This is especially true for rewatchability. As good as Chi McBride and David Morse were on House, I tend to avoid watching those episodes because I know how their story arcs end, and the suspense is ruined. For the stand-alone episodes, I can rewatch and rewatch because the writing is so good that the details of the case at hand are less vital to the enjoyment.

I think the longer story arcs are coming back into vogue in part for DVD Box-set sales. That's why I bought the Wire and the Sopranos. I missed the first few seasons, and rather than jump in midway, I just started from the beginning at my own pace.

Hey, any baseball news today?

2008-12-16 12:26:04
148.   Eric Stephen
It's not like that was the Dodgers' final offer. There still haven't been any other offers for Manny, and I would imagine his eventual deal will be closer to the Dodgers' offer than the 5 or 6-year deal Boras wants.
2008-12-16 12:26:40
149.   Humma Kavula
140 It's not that they haven't been upfront about the kids being the future of the franchise.

It's that they are stringing fans along by being barely in the CC hunt, barely in the Furcal hunt, and playing the slow hand on the Manny hunt. And the only mention of the idea of signing no free agents was in the Jamie McCourt 50 ballfields mess.

What am I supposed to take from that? It feels like they know they're putting out a mediocre product and are merely going through the motions for the coming year.

I'm not saying they should be hyping Jones --that wouldn't fly. I'm saying that, in the way they handle this period, they should always be answering one question: why should I, Humma, buy a ticket to see the Dodgers play in 2009?

I feel like they COULD be answering that question to my satisfaction, but aren't doing so. YMMV.

2008-12-16 12:27:00
150.   Eric Stephen
Boras clients in their walk-year always have much better than expected seasons

This cries out for a response. There goes my lunch hour!

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-16 12:27:10
151.   JoeyP
What could possibly happen in 2009 that would lead him to not have an extension granted?

Its not what will happen in 2009.
Its what has happened in 06-08 (Druw, Pierre, Schmidt, bloated payroll etc).
And, that Ned hasnt been extended to date.

But as for your question --anything less than a division title would guarantee his ouster. McCourts look at the dollars/win more than anyone I think, considering their financial problems.

2008-12-16 12:28:12
152.   trainwreck
"It's going to take more creativity and on their part more willingness to accept creativity," Colletti said. "If they can't accept creativity, probably we'll move on to somebody else."

"Our desire is Furcal, but he needs to be creative for our perspective. If they don't need or don't want to be creative, it's probably not going to happen."

2008-12-16 12:29:56
153.   Tripon
149 If anything they should be hyping Martin, Kemp, Ethier even more. But the obvious caveat to that is that their agents will just use the Dodgers marketing strategy as part of their arbitration case. Kinda like Boras using Veritek's Golden C in any of his dealings with the Red Sox.
2008-12-16 12:31:49
154.   Eric Stephen
Arbitration cases aren't won based on the PR of the players/clubs. Pretty much performance and service time are the main things considered/argued.
2008-12-16 12:31:51
155.   bhsportsguy
146 I'm sorry, if public opinion mattered, Mitch Kupchak would have been fired in 2005. The public didn't fire Paul DePodesta and most wouldn't know Ned Colletti if he came to door offering holiday gifts.

I hear a lot of people talk about how the McCourts care about PR but in the end, that topic just remains fun for those in the media and places like Dodger Thoughts.

Actually, for me, the McCourts should just extend Ned now and remove that shadow from the 2009 season. They probably won't so it will remain some type of distraction through the year. But I really can't think of a scenario where he does not get an extension.

2008-12-16 12:31:51
156.   bferb
150 Haha sorry. Guess I shouldnt have said "always," but I like to think of it being often, especially when it relates to the Dodgers i.e. Beltre's final year, JD Drew's year before signing with the Dodgers, Manny last year. Obviously Andruw doesnt qualify
2008-12-16 12:31:52
157.   bablue
I don't see any way we punt on 2009. In our division that would seem quite ridiculous. I think we'll spend money, just hopefully not on the Cabrera's and Garland's of he world.

I still feel we will get Manny. If the Angels sign Tex (big if) there's not really another serious suitor out there. According to River Avenue Blues (Yankees blog):

The Yankees payroll is already above 180M and they said they wanted to cut payroll. If they add Cameron/Pettite they're done I think, and they couldn't add Manny without setting record payroll levels.

Then I think the only other competition would be from the Nats and Orioles, but hopefully they would settle for Dunn/Burrell/Abreu. I don't think the McCourts could handle the PR of losing a Manny bidding war to the Nats.

2008-12-16 12:33:00
158.   Eric Enders
153 "If anything they should be hyping Martin, Kemp"

They have been hyping those guys. The problem is, what they've spent the last year hyping is Martin's nightlife and Kemp's baserunning mistakes.

2008-12-16 12:33:10
159.   bhsportsguy
151 Well my point is that, then he should have been let go then, he wasn't, so that shows me that he is still in the club's plans for the future.
2008-12-16 12:33:10
160.   Tripon
153 Expanding on this, its kinda funny how many more people would know of young Lakers such as Farmer, or Ariza or Sasha compared to say, Kemp or Ethier. Part of it of course the Lakers are currently more popular than the Dodgers, but the other part of it is that the Lakers do a much better job of promoting its youngsters with Kobe than the Dodgers do.
2008-12-16 12:33:31
161.   trainwreck
You do not think they would fire him after a bad year?

It took them forever to say he would be back next year.

2008-12-16 12:34:12
162.   Disabled List
148 I'm willing to bet that the contract Manny ends up signing this offseason will be for no less than four years.
2008-12-16 12:34:19
163.   bhsportsguy
158 I think that is not quite true, certainly on Martin and a lot of non-Dodger people talk about Kemp's baserunning.
2008-12-16 12:34:41
164.   ToyCannon
We could play with our current team and compete in this division. Right now I don't see any team capable of winning 81 games.
2008-12-16 12:35:38
165.   underdog
Someone posted an interesting question on the MLBTR chat going on right now. What's to stop an agent, say, Boras, from making up that there's another offer on the table from a mystery team? Someone claimed he did just that with the Angels a few years back, got an extra 500K out of them.

I guess if he doesn't name the team, it's hard to check. If he does name the other team, then a GM could call them to see if it's true. But still, I wonder with Manny if Boras might not try something like that.

2008-12-16 12:36:05
166.   bhsportsguy
160 Part of it is the sport, basketball, you have the ball, the focus is on you. In baseball, you have to watch it everyday and there will be games when you don't do anything memorable.
2008-12-16 12:36:10
167.   trainwreck
I agree. But I am expecting Cabrera and Garland to not help us. ; )
2008-12-16 12:36:37
168.   Tripon
165 We're seeing that with Andy Pettitte's agents right now, claiming that he has an offer of a 3 year/36 million from a team not named the Yankees.
2008-12-16 12:36:45
169.   Ken Noe
155 Why wait a year to extend him if they're happy with him now, especially after winning the West and a playoff round? No, I think he remains what I called him last year, a lame duck on a short leash.
2008-12-16 12:36:54
170.   Eric Enders
156 Recent counterexamples include Andruw, Varitek, Maddux, Gagne, Magglio, Zito.
2008-12-16 12:37:03
171.   oshea2002
162 - I agree. I don't buy the Olney statements that no one wants Manny, he'll be crawling back here for 2 years, etc.
2008-12-16 12:37:06
172.   trainwreck
Didn't he famously do that with Kevin Brown?
2008-12-16 12:37:18
173.   bhsportsguy
165 I think teams are out in front denying their interest, part of that is to counter those types of tactics.
2008-12-16 12:37:58
174.   Humma Kavula
164 That may be true. Let's make it slightly ridiculous.

Let's say Xei's projections are right, and let's say the Dodgers get a little lucky, and the Dodgers win 80 games... and win the NL West.

It could definitely happen. It still doesn't mean that the team had a successful year.

2008-12-16 12:38:46
175.   Tripon
172 A-Rod's first contract with Texas. I think the next highest offer was the Mets who didn't break the 100 million dollar mark.
2008-12-16 12:38:48
176.   LoneStar7
Based on what I've seen us do (or not do) this off season, it appears we are really going all out with the youth movement while also looking to sign the most expensive FA hitter

I just don't know what to expect, are we looking to get back to playoffs immediately or are we letting the youngsters get their shots in the rotation and on the field

2008-12-16 12:38:53
177.   ToyCannon
Boras should be powerful enough to have moles on every team capable of leaking useful information to the media when he needs it.
2008-12-16 12:39:44
178.   bhsportsguy
169 He could be, I will say, I was one person who has been consistent in saying I saw no evidence that the McCourts ever showed any interest in getting rid of Ned during last season and right now, I would have to say that even if the Dodgers don't win the division, I still can't see them not extending Ned.
2008-12-16 12:40:20
179.   blue22
162 - Then it'll be from some desperate team like the Nats, or perhaps the cash cow Yanks. I'd rather not compete with Bowden in a game of who can offer the silliest contract - you will lose.

2-3 years for Manny or pass, please.

2008-12-16 12:42:10
180.   bhsportsguy
177 But right now, what are you hearing about team's interest in his clients?

Lowe, Manny, Tex, really just the same teams. Certainly there have not been any outrageous offers for Manny yet and while Tex has some supposed offers from the Nats, Red Sox and Angels, they all around the same money and years.

2008-12-16 12:42:41
181.   bferb
Magglio and Gagne were injured though, and Zito did produce his best season in over three years in his walk. Tek and Maddux are hard to consider given his age. Of course Andruw was the biggest failure.
2008-12-16 12:43:45
182.   ToyCannon
3 years / $75 Million - he can opt out at the end of any year.
2008-12-16 12:44:47
183.   underdog
I think the point is more that this next season is the last one on Colletti's contract. So he won't be fired, but his contract could be... not renewed. I feel like McCourt will need a compelling reason to rehire him, rather than a compelling reason to fire him since that's not an option anyway.
2008-12-16 12:45:54
184.   Tripon
The Diamondbacks have hired away Class AAA Albuquerque manager Lorenzo Bundy to be the team's first base coach, Bundy confirmed.

2008-12-16 12:46:25
185.   Eric Enders
181 An obvious one I forgot is Derek Lowe, who signed with the Dodgers coming off an absolutely horrendous year in Boston.
2008-12-16 12:46:54
186.   Tripon
185 He also had a great post season.
2008-12-16 12:47:06
187.   Eric Enders
184 Let's poach Kirk Gibson then.
2008-12-16 12:48:27
188.   blue22
187 - Can he play left?
2008-12-16 12:50:46
189.   Eric Enders
He won the MVP award while not being able to play left!
2008-12-16 12:51:47
190.   ToyCannon
He smells like a lame duck to me. When you don't get extended after winning a playoff series you are on a short leash.
2008-12-16 12:53:58
191.   LoneStar7
Wow i just noticed they've added a comment section under the Dodger mailbags

they are the most dismal and negative string of comments I've ever read lol..

2008-12-16 12:54:35
192.   Disabled List
As I mentioned in the last thread, I don't think Manny signs until Tex does. Whatever contract Tex gets, Boras will try to top it with Manny.

That is, unless the Yankees drop the A-bomb contract offer that keeps any other team from even thinking about bidding, like they did with Sabathia. I don't buy for a second the notion in 157 that the Yankees are looking to cut payroll. No postseason in 2008 + New stadium in 2009 = Steinbrenner free agent feeding frenzy.

2008-12-16 13:05:04
193.   El Lay Dave
He thought he was the King of America,
Where they pour Coca-Cola just like vintage wine.
2008-12-16 13:05:54
194.   oshea2002
Gurnick is also claiming that the deal isn't done, but based on this quote I bet it is.

"We're still in conversations with them," Colletti said Tuesday. "There's a certain level we're not going past. We aren't aware of other deals."

2008-12-16 13:07:51
195.   oshea2002
191 - I just read those. Clearly, they haven't taken into account all of the ballfields that can be built thought.
2008-12-16 13:22:43
196.   Tripon
Nevertheless, the Los Angeles Dodgers and Oakland Athletics, losers on Furcal, are likely to shift their attention to Cabrera, an edgy player who quickly wore out his welcome with the Chicago White Sox.

Lets let the A's 'win' on this one.

2008-12-16 13:24:10
197.   CanuckDodger
Which of the following two shortstops, playing in Double A as 21-year-olds, would you expect to be more successful playing full time in the majors the very next year, skipping Triple A entirely?

The 21-year-old SS who hit .271/.335/.385 in AA?


The 21-year-old SS who hit .324/.419/.423 in AA?

Call me crazy, but I want the second guy. If the two have to skip Triple A completely, because their respective clubs don't have better options to play in the majors while their SS prospects get Triple A seasoning, it seems obvious that the second guy is going to be better prepared to play in the majors right away than the first SS.

Of course, that second SS is Ivan DeJesus, Jr., and those AA stats are from his 2008 season. But who is the first SS, with the worse AA stats? His name is Hanley Ramirez, and those stats are from his 2005 AA season, his last season in the minors. Skipping Triple A entirely, Ramirez played all of 2006 in the majors, and hit .292/.353/.480.

If our DeJesus were to play SS for the Dodgers in 2009, I am not saying he would have as successful a first big league season as Ramirez did. But I think the chances are pretty damn good that he would have a better 2009 MLB season than Orlando Cabrera or Jack Wilson or any other SS we could trade for without getting completely raped in terms of what we give up. Believe it, or not.

2008-12-16 13:25:49
198.   underdog
Are the Dodgers to be linked with all SS Orlandos? Is Tony Orlando free? What about Orlando Bloom?
2008-12-16 13:27:20
199.   Eric Stephen
At least one of the Orlandos, Hudson, has never played an inning at SS at the MLB or minor league level.
2008-12-16 13:29:04
200.   Daniel Zappala
Andrew should change his name to Orlando, then he'd bring as much to the table as Cabrera.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-12-16 13:29:39
201.   trainwreck
A's are definitely not dumb enough to go after Cabrera.
2008-12-16 13:32:46
202.   Eric Enders
I believe the last Orlando to play for the Dodgers was Eric Orlando Young.
2008-12-16 13:33:19
203.   Gen3Blue
Its funny how persistent some rumors are. Listening to NY sports talk radio today, all kinds of Yankee fans are convinced all they need now is Matt Kemp and they are about to get him for either Cano or Melky. Unless something happened in the last ten days while I was away, this bull goes back quite a long time.

Somehow our young players seem to get the promotion we have been despairing, just not in their own region. I'm thinking in particular of how Kemp is coveted in NY and Martin in Boston. I think a few teams also thought they could get Ethier for next to nothing a while ago. Living in NE I get kind of miffed when Yankee and Sox fans act like why won't the Dodgers trade these players cheap---they obviously don't want to play in the big time.

2008-12-16 13:33:32
204.   regfairfield
Hanley's tools were off the charts good and no one, not even the Marlins, expected he'd break out like that. It's Jamie Moyer syndrome again.
2008-12-16 13:37:08
205.   silverwidow
Pierre/Cabrera at the top would be a nightmare.
2008-12-16 13:37:19
206.   El Lay Dave
204 I don't think the point was that DeJesus could be Hanley, just that there's a very good chance DeJesus won't suck like Wilson will - at no additional cost ($$, players).
2008-12-16 13:37:56
207.   silverwidow
I think Torre values OBP a little, so hopefully that won't happen.
2008-12-16 13:38:14
208.   blue22
201 - Depends on the contract, right? What other options are there for the A's? Eckstein? Crosby? I don't believe they have an internal fallback like Hu or DeJesus.
2008-12-16 13:38:37
209.   Humma Kavula
197 Your last sentence makes a ton of sense. DeJesus most likely could hold his own in the majors, certainly when compared to the likes of Wilson/Cabrera. It's certainly not worth investing in mediocre talent when you have a DeJesus in the system.

But the rest of that post is not up to your usual standards, Canunk. Why juxtapose DeJesus with Ramirez? I don't find part of your argument convincing. Just because they would (in theory, for DeJesus) both jumped from AA to the majors between their age 21 and 22 seasons does not mean they are comparable players.

Unless I'm wrong and you think they are comparable players. But you don't make that case in your post.

2008-12-16 13:39:18
210.   El Lay Dave
198 I hear Orlando Woolridge is coming in as an jumping coach for OFs.
2008-12-16 13:42:18
211.   trainwreck
They won't waste a draft pick on him. They will probably go with Crosby/Pennington.
2008-12-16 13:42:21
212.   silverwidow
Give the Furcal money to Bobby Abreu, hand him LF and the leadoff spot.
2008-12-16 13:42:58
213.   CanuckDodger
204 -- And like I said, I am not expecting DeJesus to do what Ramirez did. Unless you want to answer the point I made, it stands: DeJesus is likely to have a better 2009 MLB season than Orlando Cabrera, Jack Wilson, or any SS we could trade for without getting raped in terms of what we give up. DeJesus is much more prepared for the majors than Blake DeWitt was entering 2008. DeWitt played most of 2007 in High A, reaching AA only in July, where he hit .281/.306/.466 in 45 games. And DeJesus, as a SS in the majors, would have to meet lower offensive expectations than DeWitt did either as a 3B or a 2B.
2008-12-16 13:44:12
214.   Kevin Lewis

Michael's social awkwardness has been borderline cruelty for quite a while. This is the major problem I have with the believability of the show...I can't imagine that the entire office would continue to take his crap. They are not all complete doormats, and someone would eventually take him aside to tell him off.

2008-12-16 13:45:24
215.   JoeyP
Canuck - would you support the Dodgers moving DeJesus ahead of Hu in the pecking order, or do you want Hu to get the 1st chance to be the Dodgers starting SS?
2008-12-16 13:46:28
216.   bablue
I wish we would just go with Hu/Dejesus (assuming we don't get Furcal), but it sounds like Ned isn't really considering them as starters. :(
2008-12-16 13:47:55
217.   bhsportsguy
203 You can't compare NY and Boston media markets to LA because baseball is by far the number one sport in those areas. The Dodgers trail the Lakers for year round coverage (the Angels are even lower in LA).

I also want to know what you mean by promote, again, there is no question that prior to Manny, Nomar got the largest cheers at the ballpark and while the young guys are gaining, they are not there yet. So if the people going to the games don't show a lot of love, who is going to do it.

But that is the nature of LA. In Columbus, Ohio or Baton Rouge, LA, the average sports fan will know the 2-deep for Ohio State and LSU football by heart. Out here, I defy you to find 10 people at the Coliseum watching USC play, to be able to do the same.

No matter how much one wants to protest the label of West Coast fan, there is a reason why the two local sports stations pretty much cover the Lakers 365 days a year and fill in with the other teams as needed.

So to get back to the original point, I am not sure what else the team can do in terms of promoting the players, its the fans that have to embrace them. And really the only real impact the fans made in the last few years was those who chose to boo Andruw Jones last year.

2008-12-16 13:48:37
218.   blue22
211 - Good point, I had forgotten about his Type-A status.
2008-12-16 13:48:39
219.   Bob Timmermann
If you go by first names, Orlando Mercado was the last Dodger named Orlando.

He played in seven games for the 1987 Dodgers, one of the franchise's most storied seasons.

Rick Honeycutt was 2-12 that year and Tim Leary was 3-11.

2008-12-16 13:49:11
220.   oshea2002
Of every possible scenario, signing Orlando Cabrera, a Type A free agent, is the worst. I really hope we give Hu/DeJesus their shot. At the very least, Hu is guaranteed to be an elite defender; and if he doesn't hack it maybe they can address that spot during the season.
2008-12-16 13:52:54
221.   Bob Timmermann
In 1987, the Dodgers traded Tom Niedenfuer to the Orioles for John Shelby and Brad Havens.

The lynchpin to the World Series crown!

2008-12-16 13:53:35
222.   CanuckDodger
209 -- My point in juxtaposing Ramirez and DeJesus was not to say DeJesus is better than Ramirez was, or will be as good as Ramirez is. I think I made that clear in saying I did not expect DeJesus to match Ramirez's MLB debut. I was making a point that AA players can be a lot more ready for MLB play than people often think. I have made the point here often that I don't think AAA is necessarily a stop that our prospects have to make. Kershaw, DeWitt and Wade this year became major leaguers without any prior AAA experience. Three prospects in one year jumping from AA to MLB. Now we are in a situation where letting DeJesus become a fourth such prospect appears superior, to me, to the alternatives.
2008-12-16 13:53:57
223.   Sam DC
Happy Birthday Arthur C. Clarke and Richard K. Dick.

And Refrigerator Perry.

2008-12-16 13:54:38
224.   CajunDodger
Columbus, Ohio or Baton Rouge, LA, the average sports fan will know the 2-deep for Ohio State and LSU football by heart.

Uhhhh...that's not true...yeah, OK it is. But we got a lot going on in Baton Rouge. There's the river, some gambling, and uhhh...LSU Baseball.

2008-12-16 13:56:46
225.   silverwidow
I am in favor of giving DeJesus the job, but not until June. Hu deserves a long look first.
2008-12-16 13:56:49
226.   Marty
What kind of parents would name their kid Dick Dick?
2008-12-16 13:57:16
227.   Sam DC
Erm, Phillip K. Dick, obviously.
2008-12-16 13:58:08
228.   CanuckDodger
215 -- I would let them fight in out, compete with each other, in spring training, but I believe DeJesus would prevail in such a battle. I wonder if Hu's vision problem has ever fully cleared up, and I somehow doubt that Hu can be trusted to be honest about whether it has. Not that Hu's inherently dishonest, but ballplayers who want to play don't give coaches reasons to not play them.
2008-12-16 13:58:22
229.   Tripon
DeJesus is smashing the ball in Winter league, posting a .333/.372/.562 in 105 at bats. Is there a reason for his power surge?
2008-12-16 13:59:15
230.   ToyCannon
They could start by stopping the inane leaks emitting from the front offce that harp on the negative qualities of their core kids.

In the past several years they have used the Blue Man Group, Bobble Head Characters, and others to promote the team, but rarely do they use their own players in these ads.

The Clippers suck right now at basketball, but I absolutely love their advertisements with their key players telling you how hard they are going to play for you.

The Dodgers market baseball at Dodger Stadium, they do not market the players.

2008-12-16 14:00:37
231.   Tripon

Pre-teen girls squeal in mirth.

2008-12-16 14:01:28
232.   ToyCannon
Yes, it is called the Puerto Rican League. He is banging but I'd take the power surge with a grain of salt, just like Xavier Paul in the Mexican League.

I do agree with everything Canuck said. I'd rather take my chance with Hu/Dejesus then anyone left out on the market.

2008-12-16 14:02:13
233.   Dodgers49
32 Randy only wants $6MM I believe

I'm not sure that's a figure we can count on. Randy lives in the Phoenix area and was willing to offer the D-Backs a hometown discount for 2009. That doesn't necessarily mean he would do the same for the Dodgers.

2008-12-16 14:02:37
234.   Jacob Burch
I'm trying to figure out who cast a vote for O-Cab in the 2007 MVP race. That just seems bizarre.
2008-12-16 14:03:41
235.   ToyCannon
For a moment I thought Arthur was still alive. You celebrate dead peoples birthdays?
2008-12-16 14:04:01
236.   bablue
Abreu is not much of an improvement over Pierre though, that seems like a waste of 10M a year.
2008-12-16 14:04:20
237.   Jacob Burch
230 I had just started to forget the bobble-head family. When I start seeing a therapist, they're giving you an angry phone call.
2008-12-16 14:04:36
238.   Eric Stephen
I think the 2010 season thus hinges on a Jonathan Broxton for David DeJesus and Jeff Fulchino trade!
2008-12-16 14:05:42
239.   Daniel Zappala
231 I am such a bad father for not taking my daughter to that movie yet.
2008-12-16 14:06:22
240.   ToyCannon
I thought it was very cool of the Dodgers to let a 10 year old create and deliver their marketing campaign.
2008-12-16 14:06:49
241.   Tripon
238 Dodgers needs to stop trading for Center fielders.
2008-12-16 14:07:20
242.   ToyCannon
You dare equate Buffalo Head to the Bull?
2008-12-16 14:07:45
243.   Sam DC
235 Tip my cap anyhow, not sure if I'd say I go all the way to celebrate.
2008-12-16 14:11:56
244.   ToyCannon
Arthur was the best. Did you ever read his scuba diving exploits when scuba diving was in its infancy? He almost turned me into a Marine Biologist. Probably why he ended up in Sri Lanka.
2008-12-16 14:13:01
245.   Jim Hitchcock
226 I have a customer named Dick Bottom. And another named Buck Raper.
2008-12-16 14:13:59
246.   trainwreck
Buck Raper lol.
2008-12-16 14:14:56
247.   Eric Stephen
The only reason I brought that up:

Through Age 24
Neidenfuer: 237.2 IP, 143 ERA+
Broxton: 241 IP, 146 ERA+

I do think Broxton is much better than Neidenfuer, but Mr. Landers was no slouch.

2008-12-16 14:15:16
248.   trainwreck
I wish I could coach basketball or football right now.
2008-12-16 14:15:36
249.   RMAPasad
As per usual, I'm not getting fuzzy "Colletti logic" here. Why is it that Furcal is a good enough bet (health or otherwise) to offer a two year deal to, but the third year is somehow too big a risk ? I certainly get that a third year gets risky for a 37 yr old Manny Ramirez (at those $$) or for a 35 yr old replacement level player like Casey Blake (at any price).. But Furcal will be 33 when his new 3 yr deal expires, exactly the same age Juan Pierre will be when his 5 yr deal ends. So it's OK to go to age 33 on Pierre, or age 37 on Blake, but not age 33 on Furcal ?
Nor can this be entirely explained by DeJesus' readiness to take over in the near term. The kid had a great year in AA last yr, and if he keeps it up, he could be ready in 2010 or maybe even mid-2009. The one question is whether DeJesus is truly best suited for SS. He was rotated to 2b for games this yr because of some concern about his throwing errors at SS. Which simply means if DeJesus doesn't make it at SS, he could be the 2bman of the future, still leaving LA in need of a SS in 2010-2011.

Dollars were involved here, it seems. Was Colletti simply making Furcal an offer that he knew wouldn't likely be taken, ala the first Manny Ramirez offer ? Is this for PR show to make fans think the proper attempts were made, as McCourt dramatically reduces payroll ? There is clearly enough room to sign Blake, Furcal, and Manny plus a FA agent and keep payroll at its same 118 mil level as last yr (given rolloffs of Kent, Nomar, Loiaza) and of course Schmidt and Jones go away next year. What's the exact PLAN here anyway ?
All this talk about "in-house" alternatives at SS and/or Jack Wilson, etc. makes it look like the "plan" could end up giving LA one of the worst IF's in baseball for 2009.

2008-12-16 14:19:04
250.   ToyCannon
I would expect it was because of how much time he missed or played hurt during the last 3 year contract during his prime years.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-12-16 14:30:24
251.   trainwreck
If you can only offer your top priority a two-year incentive laden deal than you need to change your priorities.
2008-12-16 14:36:35
252.   tjdub
Or your stated priorities are not your actual priorities
2008-12-16 14:38:11
253.   silverwidow
Our offers to Manny and Furcal were designed to be rejected. McCourt has probably issued a dramatic payroll decrease, but needs to keep it under wraps.
2008-12-16 14:38:40
254.   CajunDodger
2008-12-16 14:41:09
255.   cargill06
Buster Olney was just on ESPN radio 710 and said a source says the Dodgers will offer Furcal 3/30 with an option and he thinks Furcal will sign with LA.
2008-12-16 14:41:19
256.   kinbote
Much ado about nothing.
2008-12-16 14:42:09
257.   kinbote
Or not.
2008-12-16 14:45:34
258.   ToyCannon
Indiana Jon's happiness jig is now in doubt.
2008-12-16 14:46:06
259.   Daniel Zappala
Maybe Colletti learned his lesson from past contracts and will wait and then match or only slightly top the best offer.
2008-12-16 14:46:25
260.   ToyCannon
Maybe but they seemed to be intelligent offers.
2008-12-16 14:47:26
261.   Jacob Burch
Any sore throat remedies/advice? I don't get them very often, and this one is coming on mighty strong. I'm drinking what I can, but drinking too much at one times seems to make me sick from flushing all the messiness down my throat.
2008-12-16 14:48:19
262.   ToyCannon
If we sign him I could easily see Eric Enders strategy coming to fruitation with Furcal being our CF in 2010/2011.
2008-12-16 14:48:22
263.   silverwidow
261 If you feel a cold coming on, take Airborne. Always works for me.
2008-12-16 14:50:08
264.   Daniel Zappala
261 It's likely sore because your sinuses are dripping. Take Mucinex twice a day and then use medicated cough drops like they're candy. If it gets bad enough that you can't sleep at night due to coughing, see your doctor for cough syrup with codeine. You'll also get antibiotics if there's a chance it has turned into a bacterial form of bronchitis. Yes, I just barely recovered from this.
2008-12-16 14:50:14
265.   Jacob Burch
263 That's sort of the funny thing--I tend to get mild sore throats as a signal for a cold, but this doesn't feel like that--I don't feel that sore or lightheaded like I normally do there. This is just a painful throat and not much else.

Still, will likely pick up some Airborne on my way home, just in case.

2008-12-16 14:51:44
266.   mintxcore
2008-12-16 14:52:15
267.   Daniel Zappala
2008-12-16 14:52:18
268.   Kevin Lewis

I have found Zicam to be more affective than Airborne...however, if you go that route, Target Brand Airborne is much cheaper

2008-12-16 14:54:01
269.   Jacob Burch
266 267 Now that is some double posting. Mucinex it is!
2008-12-16 14:54:27
270.   silverwidow
Yeah, I heard about that re: Airborne, but I still haven't gotten the common cold in over two years.
2008-12-16 14:55:30
271.   regfairfield
231 Because of that movie, my friends call me "Edward".

I hate that movie.

2008-12-16 14:58:01
272.   trainwreck
Gargle warm water and chili powder.
2008-12-16 14:58:12
273.   bhsportsguy
Is it possible Atlanta did Raffy a favor by making an "offer" to him?
2008-12-16 14:58:46
274.   Daniel Zappala
268 Can you still smell?

2008-12-16 15:01:17
275.   trainwreck
Joe Paterno got a three-year contract extension.


2008-12-16 15:01:39
276.   Kevin Lewis

I never took the nose kind. Tablets only

2008-12-16 15:02:55
277.   Harold M Johnson
270 I have a rock that keeps tigers away, so far it works great.
2008-12-16 15:04:45
278.   cargill06
Was Rosenthal the one to break the Furcal to the Braves story? If so, he's got to be was below the Mendoza line on the accuracy of his stories.
2008-12-16 15:07:04
279.   Eric Stephen
His level of responsibility at Penn State is only slightly above that of Tommy Lasorda with the Dodgers.
2008-12-16 15:07:55
280.   trainwreck
True. He is going to die in the press box.
2008-12-16 15:08:17
281.   Tripon
Yeah, but kids actually being recruited to 'play' for JoePa. No free agent is going to sign with the Dodgers because of Lasorda.
2008-12-16 15:11:47
282.   underdog
If the Dodgers could combine Bobby and Tony, they'd have one hell of an Abreu.
2008-12-16 15:13:38
283.   Eric Enders
I know all the rational arguments against it, but I nonetheless find myself really hoping that we outbid the Braves and sign Furcal.
2008-12-16 15:14:14
284.   Eric Stephen
Me too.
2008-12-16 15:15:08
285.   cargill06
283 I saw your book at Barnes and Noble the other day. I had no idea you were a writer.
2008-12-16 15:19:01
286.   bhsportsguy
The Lakers are on NBA TV tonight.
2008-12-16 15:20:12
287.   Eric Enders
285 I am if one uses the term rather loosely. ;)
2008-12-16 15:20:50
288.   Bumsrap
I guess it is better to sign Furcal or Cabrerra and then let Hu play than to trade Hu to the Pirates.

If this economy has further stretched McCourt's ability to own the Dodgers, perhaps, and this is only if he is struggling financially, McCourt could be part deal that gave him the Padres and Brand the Dodgers.

2008-12-16 15:22:33
289.   bigcpa
Dave Cameron posted a nice profile of Troncoso at THT. Make this man a starter asap!

2008-12-16 15:22:41
290.   Bumsrap
287 What is the name of your book?
2008-12-16 15:22:46
291.   Jacob Burch
A search for "Eric Enders" brings up a John Sayles essay, which makes me happy.
2008-12-16 15:23:07
292.   savvyjr
Any new news on the Furcal situation, other than the mention of Buster Olney's statement over the radio?
2008-12-16 15:26:06
293.   trainwreck
Why Texas Was Screwed Out of The 2009 National Championship. ; )
2008-12-16 15:28:06
294.   bhsportsguy
Eric is the man to ask the following questions:

What do Cleon and Nippy have in common besides their last name?

How many places did the Dodgers call home before their place on Flatbush was built?

Would history been changed if Erskine didn't bounce his curve ball in the bullpen?

2008-12-16 15:28:46
295.   Bumsrap
293 - So, its a romance novel.
2008-12-16 15:29:49
296.   Jim Hitchcock
287 Methinks you doth protest too much :).

How's the update to Ballparks then and Now coming along?

2008-12-16 15:29:52
297.   Andrew Shimmin
277- Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

If I were McCourt, I'd make it impossible for Colletti to sign Manny (or anybody else worth anything much). Then, after Manny signs with another team, I'd denounce and fire Colletti.

2008-12-16 15:30:00
298.   oshea2002
Question, where is Tony Jackson on all this? His site still just links to the AJC from hours ago.
2008-12-16 15:31:42
299.   trainwreck
Christmas shopping for Hawaiian shirts.
2008-12-16 15:32:08
300.   LogikReader

Wow, again? Feels like the Lakers are on NBA TV every Tuesday.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-12-16 15:33:01
301.   ToyCannon
Favorite John Sayles movie?
2008-12-16 15:34:13
302.   Marty
2008-12-16 15:35:21
303.   ToyCannon
Or you can catch the new look Clippers tape delayed at 05:30 on your local station. They are fun to watch again. Nice mix of veterans and yutes with Randolf showing the sweetest shot I've seen coming from a Clipper in many a year.
2008-12-16 15:35:56
304.   trainwreck
Gammons seems convinced Manny will be an Angel if Teixeira chooses the Sox.

Re-sign, Teixeira! Re-sign!!!

2008-12-16 15:37:57
305.   Jacob Burch
301 Men with Guns, but I very badly want to rent Matewan. I'm a Will Oldham fanatic and didn't know he was in it until a few months ago. I gotta get me a Netflix account one of these days I suppose...
2008-12-16 15:39:48
306.   Eric Enders
290 I really try not to pimp my books around here, but since you asked, there's one called "The Fall Classic: The Definitive History of the World Series" and another one called "Ballparks Then and Now." There will also be another one out in the spring.
2008-12-16 15:39:57
307.   Jim Hitchcock
305 underdog will be teed if you go Netflix rather than Greencine.
2008-12-16 15:41:37
308.   Jim Hitchcock
306 Both big books, requiring a sturdy coffee table.
2008-12-16 15:42:35
309.   Eric Enders
301 Definitely Lone Star. I also have a soft spot for The Brother From Another Planet. I like almost all of them, though. Everything except Silver City is basically worthwhile.
2008-12-16 15:43:39
310.   Humma Kavula
Also Lone Star, though my soft spot is for The Return of the Secaucus Seven.
2008-12-16 15:44:12
311.   ToyCannon
According to GreenCine, "Men with Guns" is out of print.
Lonestar is my favorite followed by Brother from another planet but I've yet to see Matewan or Limbo so I just put them in my queue on Greencine.
2008-12-16 15:44:20
312.   silverwidow
If Furcal signs with the Dodgers, I wouldn't be surprised if this winds up in court.
2008-12-16 15:44:50
313.   silverwidow
I thought "preliminary agreements" were binding.
2008-12-16 15:46:07
314.   Harold M Johnson
It sounds like Furcal has two agents, is that common?
2008-12-16 15:46:10
315.   Jim Hitchcock
Yeah, I expected a lot out of Silver City, coming on the heels of Lone Star, but it really fell flat.
2008-12-16 15:48:16
316.   bferb
4:43pm: Tim Brown explains that while some Braves people believed they had a deal with Furcal, Kinzer and Arn Tellem are still talking to the Dodgers. The Braves probably aren't terribly amused with the agents.
2008-12-16 15:48:18
317.   Jacob Burch
311 I'm almost positive there is a print that's still available, but I can't prove it--someone told me they got similar messages from most DVD services. I own a copy that I bought a few years ago. Absolutely a Masterpiece.
2008-12-16 15:48:45
318.   Marty
For some reason I never got into Lone Star that much.

I liked City of Hope a lot the first time I saw it, then I've liked it less each additional time. I had the complete opposite experience with Eight Men Out. I hated it the first time I saw it, but now it's my second favorite Sayles movie.

2008-12-16 15:49:28
319.   Eric Enders
312 I don't see how. According to the agent there has been no preliminary agreement signed and no informal agreement reached. This seems like it might be a simple case of the media jumping the gun (which was utterly predictable) and Jon also falling for it (which was not). ;)

If I recall, something similar happened with Furcal three years ago. All the media outlets reported we'd signed him, and then three days later we actually did.

2008-12-16 15:49:52
320.   bhsportsguy
If Furcal hasn't signed a contract, he is still a free agent.

Lots of people, not just athletes, "agree" to something but until they sign the dotted line, they are not bound to it.

Now that's from a legal point of view, reputation is another and that may be more of a problem.

2008-12-16 15:50:54
321.   bhsportsguy
316 If they really felt that way, they would pull the offer.
2008-12-16 15:51:24
322.   Eric Stephen
Every Tuesday on NBA TV is "Fan Night." Fans vote online on which game to televise on NBA TV, and the Lakers are quite popular.
2008-12-16 15:51:54
323.   oshea2002
304 - I'm surprised more people haven't been saying that, it seems like the perfect move for Moreno on so many levels.
2008-12-16 15:52:33
324.   underdog
Men With Guns is indeed out of print, alas. It can be yours via Amazon for 52 bucks! Good film. I find all of Sayles' films worth watching, even the lesser ones, and my favorites are worth watching multiple times. Silver City was a misfire, true, though it had one of my favorite actors, Danny Huston, as the star, and I still appreciated the attempt.

Lone Star, Eight Men Out, Matewan, Brother, those are still my faves.

underdog won't be mad at Jacob if he chooses the evil Red Empire, only sad and disappointed. ;-)

304 Wasn't Gammons convinced about a lot of other things that ended up wrong?

2008-12-16 15:53:55
325.   silverwidow
What about verbal contracts? Don't they hold up? Furcal or his agent very well could have verbally agreed to a deal.
2008-12-16 15:55:16
326.   I Love LA
320-yup, you just described Elton Brand. Well at least according to the Clippers.
2008-12-16 15:55:32
327.   underdog
It will be quite amusing if Furcal ends up coming back to the Dodgers after all, if only to see what Jon comes up for his third Furcal post in a row. Like a running gag.
2008-12-16 15:55:34
328.   bhsportsguy
325 You cannot make a oral contract for more than a year.
2008-12-16 15:56:15
329.   Eric Enders
325 As applied to baseball, my understanding of verbal contracts is that they aren't worth the paper they aren't written on.

I don't really see this getting to the point where the Braves withdraw their offer -- but I would be pleased if it does. I want Furcal back.

2008-12-16 15:57:08
330.   Jacob Burch
324 I admit complete ignorance on online DVD providers, and was merely spouting buzz words!
2008-12-16 16:01:07
331.   I Love LA
325 - No, sadly a verbal contract do not hold up in court.
2008-12-16 16:01:42
332.   ToyCannon
If you like John Sayles, GreenCine is for you. If you had been on the winning wiffleball team you would have gotten 12 months of free GreenCine cinema.
2008-12-16 16:02:03
333.   underdog
330 - Come see me when it's time for signing up. ;-)


Heh. Once again, Pirates beat reporters are bringing up the idea of Jack Wilson to the Dodgers if they miss out on Furcal. Yet another reason why I now hope they do nab Raffy.

2008-12-16 16:02:19
334.   oshea2002
Verbal contracts can absolutely be binding. But, in baseball negotiations, really what constitutes offer and acceptance? Otherwise, it may all just be negotiating. There can be an oral contract even if you anticipate a formal signing, but likely, it's just negotiations.

I can email you all my contracts outline if you'd like.

2008-12-16 16:03:20
335.   Eric Enders
Sayles in my order of preference*
(* subject to change at any time)

Lone Star (1996)
The Brother from Another Planet (1984)
Eight Men Out (1988)
Matewan (1987)
Limbo (1999)
City of Hope (1991)
Baby It's You (1983)
The Secret of Roan Inish (1994)
Return of the Secaucus Seven (1980)
Honeydripper (2007)
Men with Guns (1997/II)
Sunshine State (2002)
Passion Fish (1992)
Lianna (1983)
Casa de los babys (2003)
Silver City (2004)

2008-12-16 16:03:23
336.   Jon Weisman
327 - Yeah, frankly, I should put something up right now. I'm not milking it enough.
2008-12-16 16:03:34
337.   Jacob Burch
332 I still blame Karim Garcia's magic pixie dust! If Andrew can come up with information on Cory Wade, surely it exists for the pull master.
2008-12-16 16:04:09
338.   Jon Weisman
335 - Roan Inish was superb. I think I'd have that and Eight Men out in my top two.
2008-12-16 16:04:45
339.   Jacob Burch
335 Is there a major break there? I am slightly behind, but that many films above a film I cherish so dearly (MwG) has me excited.
2008-12-16 16:06:56
340.   Eric Enders
339 Everything from Passion Fish on up, I liked a lot. Lianna and Casa de los Babys I thought were decent but nothing special, and Silver City was just bad.
2008-12-16 16:07:43
341.   Branch Rickey
A&E wishes to subscribe to your legal newsletter.
2008-12-16 16:08:00
342.   underdog
Oh man, I totally forgot about Roan Inish! I love that one. That's in my top 3-4 Sayles for sure.

Ugh, Casa de los Babys...

336 "Furcal still on Dodgers' Radar (O'Reilly)"?

2008-12-16 16:10:00
343.   underdog
And those few of you here who are GC members will be receiving the underdog-created/approved e-newsletter any moment now.

{proceed with secret handshake}

2008-12-16 16:10:25
344.   Eric Enders
342 No, O'Malley.
2008-12-16 16:10:39
345.   bhsportsguy
341 I think you mentioned something about some people having part of their season ticket package available, can you email me at with the particulars. Thanks
2008-12-16 16:14:52
346.   I Love LA
334- right, but they are very hard to prove. It can get complicated, this is why written co tracts are always prefer in the legal world.
2008-12-16 16:15:28
347.   Tripon
333 more speculation from Pittsburgh, and no new information from L.A. Until guys like Tony Jackson, Dylan Hernadez, or Diamond Lueng actually report that the Dodgers are trying to trade for Jack Wilson, I can't believe that they're actually aiming for Wilson. When the difference is Tony Jackson that the Dodgers haven't talked to the Pirates about Wilson since July, and the Pirates beat writers claiming the Dodgers were talking to the Pirates about Wilson in mid Dec, something is wrong.
2008-12-16 16:16:12
348.   underdog
this'll make trainwreck angry, though maybe not as angry as it made me:

No studio seems as committed to pillaging its back catalogue as MGM is, and Tobe Hooper's Poltergeist is currently on its slate as well. The 1982 original, produced by Spielberg, will be remade by Vadim Perelman. He previously directed House Of Sand And Fog, and the new Poltergeist may make it out for next year.

Here's a bunch of other terrible-sounding remakes in the works, some of which we've already ranted about here.

2008-12-16 16:18:28
349.   Kevin Lewis

Next you are going to tell me that the original Jaws will be remade

2008-12-16 16:18:33
350.   ToyCannon
You write the newsletter?
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-12-16 16:19:07
351.   Jim Hitchcock
Remaking Poltergeist? Yeah, that makes about as much sense as remaking The Right Stuff.
2008-12-16 16:20:06
352.   Ken Noe
Matewan, my family's version of Roots. My grandfather always swore we were somehow related to Sid Hatfield.
2008-12-16 16:21:04
353.   underdog
Footloose with Zac Efron made me laugh, though of the ones on that list that may be one of the few not-terrible ideas.

350 Yep, with some help from existing stuff. But mostly.

2008-12-16 16:23:53
354.   Tripon
Just wait until 2015 and the Back to the Future remake.
2008-12-16 16:25:52
355.   Eric Enders
354 I say we crank up the DeLorean, travel to 2015 and stop them.
2008-12-16 16:26:04
356.   underdog
Michael Bay producing a remake of Rosemary's Baby makes me want to cry like a baby.
2008-12-16 16:26:43
357.   oshea2002
espn update - Furcal and Dodger's negotiations gaining momentum.

2008-12-16 16:26:46
358.   Eric Stephen
2015 will also be the year the Cubs sweep "Miami" in the best-of-9 World Series, per BttF 2.
2008-12-16 16:26:50
359.   RMAPasad
Re: 250 If the Furcal injury risk is the reason for not going the extra mile here, why even offer a 2 yr deal ? Having the Schmidt deal at only 2 yrs would have made it less atrocious, but it wouldn't have saved it from being a big waste. So the logic of 2 being OK but 3 not still doesn't ring true. And why announce that Furcal is a top priority then be unwilling to meet him somewhat halfway (ie he had a 4 yr deal from A's supposedly) ?
Real issue re: injuries is whether his last 2 yrs is likely to repeat. His '07 ankle problems came from that collision with Repko which can happen to anyone. He seems to be over that. Did his back surgery of '08 cure that problem ? I had similar surgery 6 yrs ago, and haven't had any recurrence. Then again, I haven't been taking any grounders for about 20 years. So if there's a reasonable fear that his back may re-flare, then pass altogether and don't talk him up about being "priority" in the press.
2008-12-16 16:29:02
360.   Eric Enders
358 The team is legally obligated to change its name to the Miami Marlins in 2012, so... now all they need is to switch leagues.
2008-12-16 16:29:08
361.   oshea2002
A 10 remake?

I'll take a Highlander remake, another Highlander movie, bring the TV show back, whatever. Those movies were awesome.

2008-12-16 16:29:48
362.   trainwreck
Of course they would re-make Sympathy for Lady Vengeance.

I like how they are re-making the re-make of the Thing. About as pointless as another King Kong movie.

I knew they would re-make Poltergeist and Rosemary's Baby. It was inevitable.

2008-12-16 16:30:18
363.   Tripon

Tim Kawakami is speculating that Cable's rant against Kiffin poaching Raiders coaches might make Davis keep Cable for an extra year. (That, and the likelihood that any decent coach is going to say no thanks to the Raiders job.)

2008-12-16 16:30:29
364.   Harold M Johnson
359 I think it's important to remember that a lot of what gets to the media during these negotiations are just that-- negotiation.
2008-12-16 16:30:50
365.   Eric Stephen
I thought there could only be one?

I'll concede the TV show was hilarious.

2008-12-16 16:30:56
366.   trainwreck
He keeps re-making all these classic horror movies.

The Birds for heaven's sake. The Birds!!!

2008-12-16 16:31:47
367.   trainwreck
2008-12-16 16:33:55
368.   Eric Enders
The Birds is the one Hitchock that gets worse every time I watch it. It used to be one of my favorites and now I think it's not that great. So to me, it's no sacrilege that they're remaking it. What is sacrilege is that Michael Bay is making movies at all.
2008-12-16 16:35:27
369.   oshea2002
I refuse to believe that Al has actually had a moment of clarity long enough to realize that no one else wants the job. That would imply Al using reasoning, logic, and common sense, and that's clearly not going to happen. So if they do keep him, it will be b/c of some misguided sense of loyalty.
2008-12-16 16:35:30
370.   trainwreck
It may not be one of Hitchcock's best, but I think a Hollywood remake would be incredibly bad.

Like the movie Bats.

2008-12-16 16:36:22
371.   Jon Weisman
You know, I think I'd rather watch a remake then read more rants about the evils of remakes. But I speak only for myself.


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