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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Year-End Beginnings
2008-12-23 08:19
by Jon Weisman

To continue this community-themed final week of the year, I extend an invitation for never-before commenters - hey, kids on vacation, this includes you! (with your folks' permission) - to dive in and say hello. Give us your thoughts about the Dodgers or anything else - all opinions welcome - or just wave your hat and say hi ...

Comments (435)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-23 08:41:32
1.   Jim Wilson
Am I first?

I wish the Dodgers would sign a power hitter for the next couple years....

2008-12-23 08:44:11
2.   Terry A
Is it really "Toasters Ovens" as the ads hereabouts state?

We always say "Toaster Ovens" around these parts, although we don't use it as a proper noun (so no capitalization).

2008-12-23 09:04:01
3.   Big Game
I used to post a lot more often, now I'm trying to get back in the saddle.
2008-12-23 09:18:45
4.   Landonkk
Hey guys...

Long time reader - occasional poster here. I want to apologize for the fact that I usually only post here when my frustration with the Dodgers (most often management) gets the best of me. I promise to try harder to be a contributor rather than a whiner in 2009.

DT is my first and only stop for intelligent conversation regarding everything blue and even though I rarely post, I truly feel I am part of a close-nit online community. Bobby T., Xei, bhsportsguy, D4P, natepurcell and of course Mayor Jon: Thanks for being a part of my daily distraction, and I hope you all have a Happy Holiday.

2008-12-23 09:19:36
5.   brookster1967
Long time reader, rarely a poster...

My Christmas wish for the Dodgers is probably the same as most: Manny, Randy Johnson, Randy Wolf and Trevor Hoffman. If we can't get Manny, I would like us to see if we can get Dunn.

2008-12-23 09:27:50
6.   BlueCrew Bruin
I'm not a new poster but an infrequent one. I'm always lurking though. I just wanna say thanks to Jon and all of you for making this site a great place to spend time.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah and Happy New Year to you all.

2008-12-23 09:36:48
7.   Griffon64
I read daily and post yearly!

But I echo all the good things that people say about this site. Fantastic work, Jon - and all the intelligent people gathered here.

2008-12-23 09:43:34
8.   Julieh
I read you every day! I am a LONG time Dodger lover, fan, and read everything I can about baseball--especially in these long, dark, empty nights of the off season.
The light is BRIGHT at the end of the tunnel! Spring Training begins in just about 2 months! I am planning to be at Camelback Ranch (sounds too much like Brokeback Mountain to me, but whatever...) for at least one of the pre season games!
Thanks for your posts...
You are appreciated!
2008-12-23 09:46:15
9.   fernst2937
same as (5) ...longtime reader, seldom poster

Jon, your work with DT is refreshing

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone

2008-12-23 09:51:23
10.   Indiana Jon
8 Glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks "Brokeback Mountain" every time I hear it.
2008-12-23 10:05:36
11.   The New Guy
Long time reader, first time poster

I'm a reporter in the LA area and I look up to you. You're fantastic at this, I hope you never quit.

2008-12-23 10:09:19
12.   The New Guy
PS -- Camelback Ranch is a terrible name, I will never call it that.
2008-12-23 10:09:34
13.   Jacob Burch
10 How is your new iBaby working out? Any particularly confusing/wonderful discoveries?
2008-12-23 10:09:52
14.   kwame a
I've been reading DT for several years now, I just want to thank the posters and Jon for making this place such an informative and vibrant community. I really enjoyed everyone's "year-in-review" comments yesterday, and I always appreciate the detailed baseball analysis.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all, and may the Dodgers sign Manny to a 3 year deal, preferably for under 80 million.

2008-12-23 10:29:42
15.   berkowit28
12 What exactly is so terrible about it?
2008-12-23 10:30:02
16.   Linkmeister
I've been absent for the past few weeks, but I'm not dead.

Thanks for all the good work you do, Jon, and thanks to all the heavy lifting the unofficial scouts and stat geeks do in the comments as well.

Oh, and I'll offer a Christmas album suggestion: Mary Chapin-Carpenter's "Come Darkness Come Light." It's got six original songs on it and only three of the traditional carols. It's wonderful.

2008-12-23 10:30:52
17.   bhsportsguy
Welcome all new and infrequent posters. Happy Holidays to all.
2008-12-23 10:32:13
18.   cargill06
Where can I find a link with ANDRUW's winter league stats?
2008-12-23 10:38:35
19.   jasonungar07
18 Do u really want to put yourself thru that misery during the holidays?

Coletti said Manny or noybody.....Well that is it image and ticket sales or nobody is how I read that. We need to upgrade our offense Manny or no Manny. I'd be perfectly happy with Abreu or Dunn for far cheaper...How can u go from Manny level production in LF to we will go with "what we got" production so easily.

2008-12-23 10:39:33
20.   Indiana Jon
13 So far it's awesome. I haven't really done much with it, besides surfing the net and generally looking around and exploring. It's unbelievable how quickly and easily i boots up and is ready for action. After years of slow boot up and endless loading of programs in Windows, it's a welcome feature. I plan to try out some more things today, playing movies, adding music, etc.
2008-12-23 10:42:35
21.   Tripon
2008-12-23 10:43:47
22.   Tripon
The good news about Andruw Jones. He's has a OBP of .409. The bad news is that he's OPSing .597. That's amazing.
2008-12-23 10:46:34
23.   D4P
He's a two true outcome player.
2008-12-23 10:51:30
24.   cargill06
22 Fantastic, 8 K's in 16 AB's is always encouraging also. How is this possible? It's like one of the top PGA tour pro's never being able to consistantly break 80 all of the sudden.
2008-12-23 10:51:38
25.   KG16
18 - Dunn is the magic flying pony of certain segments of the DT population. it'd be kind of funny if the Dodgers ended up being Boras' "secret" team for Tex. I think either Tex or Loney would be adequate defensively in left and it would continue to relieve the kids of pressure (here's hoping Martin doesn't swing from his heels as much this year).
2008-12-23 10:51:49
26.   Who Is Karim Garcia
Merry Christmas and a happy Blue Year to all of you.
2008-12-23 10:52:23
27.   Rob M
As a frequent in-season and very infrequent off-season poster, I'll check in to wish everyone a happy holiday. I'm looking forward to next season and the continued growth of the youngsters. I have mixed feelings about the Furcal signing - I'd have rather put that money toward one of the left fielders out there and see what Hu can do with two good eyes. I have a feeling he's going to have a nifty season or two in someone else's uniform. I see big things for James Loney in 2009 and I have my fingers crossed on a speedy recovery for His Royal Thighness. Cheers!
2008-12-23 10:58:45
28.   cargill06
25 The "secret" team is the Red Sox, this I'm sure of. They have the highest offer on the table.
2008-12-23 10:59:22
29.   DaDoughboy
Here's to not taking the little things for granted and enjoying the holiday season for what its really for: bowl games, baseball rumors, over-eating, possible over-drinking, and spending time with loved ones. This country is going to go through one of it's roughest patches in 2009...I'm just thankful for having the Dodgers and DT to lean on (once again) to make the world normal for just a little bit each day.
2008-12-23 11:00:59
30.   MC Safety
Apples to Apples is a fun game.
2008-12-23 11:01:38
31.   jasonungar07
Texiera and Dodgers in same sentence is laughable though. 5 years AND, DID YOU SAY AND NEDDY? 100 million dollars and Frank head explodes.
2008-12-23 11:02:17
32.   BlueCrew Bruin
30 You should also try Last Word. That's a lot of fun as well.
2008-12-23 11:03:25
33.   DaDoughboy
'aside from Felipe Lopez, all of Boras' free agent clients are unsigned.'

This just makes me smile for some reason.

2008-12-23 11:07:47
34.   El Lay Dave
15 It's fairly uncreative - in Santa Barbara the equivalent might be Mission Field - but then I found this definition at (imagine the underscored part italicized instead) :

ADJECTIVE: Shaped like a hump or an arching curve.
NOUN: New Orleans A narrow house with one story in front and two in the rear.

Sometimes the Dodgers are like that: one story in front and two in the rear.

2008-12-23 11:10:42
35.   MC Safety
32 Thanks. I think my cousin has that game. I'll have to give it a shot.

Oh, and I hate the Yankees:

2008-12-23 11:11:56
36.   El Lay Dave
30 We play that at parties fairly frequently and we always ending up laughing heartily.
2008-12-23 11:15:47
37.   dkminnick
30 - Agreed.
32 - Would the Last Word be good for kids around 10?
2008-12-23 11:16:05
38.   bferb
21 I hadn't checked on winter stats too much. It looks like Xavier Paul is putting together a pretty nice winter in Mexico. Too bad Andruw is showing no good signs
2008-12-23 11:18:33
39.   Eric Stephen
I must have missed the part in the MLB collective bargaining agreement where it states players and teams get extra credit for signing first.

Who cares if all of Boras's clients are unsigned right now? That's part of his plan, at least with Lowe and Oliver Perez. With CC & AJ out of the picture, Boras gets to shop his two pitchers, with a legitimate claim that they are at least 2 of the top 3 pitchers on the market (an injury-prone Sheets being the other possibility).

Once Tex signs, Boras will then shop Manny to the teams that missed out on Tex. I still don't think Manny will get more than 3 years from anyone, but if there's an agent that can coax a 4-year deal, it's Boras.

2008-12-23 11:20:32
40.   bferb
I had a dream last night that I met Scott Boras. It was really bizarre
2008-12-23 11:23:06
41.   Tripon
Rafael Furcal's new contract with the Dodgers includes incentive bonuses if he maintains the core-strengthening program that he began last season. Furcal actually liked the idea of including the bonuses in the deal. His problem is not his desire, but his style of play. "Furcal plays violent every inning," one NL coach says. "He doesn't half-ass anything. He runs hard, throws hard, swings hard." ...

2008-12-23 11:25:48
42.   Tripon

Its not Manny, or Oliver Perez who has to worry about this. Its guys like Gagne, Alex Cora, and Joe Crede that should worry that Scott Boras isn't busting his hump to get them signed. It does them no good to be in Feb and without a contract. Baseball's just going to move without them.

2008-12-23 11:27:57
43.   silverwidow
Heyman says Tex could be a Yankee this afternoon.
2008-12-23 11:28:34
44.   bagg4
Happy Holidays, Jon! Looking forward to Hot Stove League wrapping up and that Ned and Frank have a few shekels to dole out properly.
2008-12-23 11:29:59
45.   Tripon
Heyman says a lot of things.
2008-12-23 11:30:25
46.   Eric Stephen
All those guys are secondary anyway; there's not much of a market for them, no matter who their agent is. Crede may be a bargain starter, but he's not viewed in baseball that way.
2008-12-23 11:32:06
47.   silverwidow
Tex to the Yankees is GREAT news for us.

Manny is lock to stay in L.A. Which team is the question.

2008-12-23 11:35:00
48.   regfairfield
I'd rather my team focused on putting the best team on the field possible instead of claiming a moral victory over Scott Boras.
2008-12-23 11:36:12
49.   Tripon
I rather not give a first rounder to the Mets just to have the honor of signing Oliver Perez.
2008-12-23 11:36:46
50.   ucladodger
Hey all,

Just wanted to wish everyone the happiest of holidays. I havent been posting much lately (really busy with school and everything that goes on during break), but I still read everything on here. While life might get busy, i always need my dose of DT!

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-23 11:39:28
51.   Harold M Johnson
My daughter is 6 years old and is a huge Dodgers fan. She's been going to about 5 games a year since she was 3, and she knows pretty much all the players. She watched almost every playoff game on TV, and even went to one at the Stadium two years ago against the Mets and screamed her lungs out.

She's gone back and forth on who her favorite player is every year, originally it was Milton Bradley, then it was Brad Penny (those two chosen almost exclusively because of their names, I believe), then Matt Kemp, then for a long time James Loney (he signed her ball before the game when everyone else ignored her).

We went to the August 3rd Day game which she had been looking forward to for awhile because it was Build-A-Bear day. It was also our first time to see Manny. Manny's line in that game was 4-5 with 1 HR and 3 RBI. From that day on, she's been completely nuts about all things Manny.

All she wants for Christmas is Manny.

2008-12-23 11:41:55
52.   Marty
24 Let me introduce you to David Duval and Ian Baker Finch.
2008-12-23 11:42:14
53.   Eric Stephen
I, for one, do not want to disappoint your daughter. I hope she gets what she wants.
2008-12-23 11:44:16
54.   68elcamino427
Mr. Ultimo
2008-12-23 11:47:45
55.   JJ42
Hey all,

I am an infrequent poster but have come to know a few of you in person, and most of you through your alter-egos on this site. It has been a great year, with some bad sprinkled in (but even with the bad comes new opportunities). The Dodgers have been very good to me this year and the DT community has been a godsend, although it has been a dangerous distraction/addiction when I'm at work or with my girlfriend. Thank you to everyone who has enabled this addiction and I look forward to the new year, new season, and NPUTs to come!

2008-12-23 11:50:53
56.   Eric Stephen
I almost expect you to show up with one of my relatives at my uncle's house tomorrow night. :)
2008-12-23 11:53:21
57.   JJ42
56 we'll see, won't we? :)
2008-12-23 11:58:40
58.   68elcamino427
Manny as a Dodger:

G 53, AB 187, OPS+ 219

2008-12-23 12:06:58
59.   bferb
I was just reading about how the Rangers want to dump Millwood and Padilla. Would anyone on here be opposed to a Pierre for Padilla swap? I know it might require Pierre plus a prospect or cash or something, but just curious what people think? Padilla is a free agent (club option) after 2009 and probably would benefit from a) being in the national league and b) being in a pitchers park where is huge HR allowed would certainly go down.
2008-12-23 12:08:12
60.   bferb
Also just posted on MLBTR:'s Rhett Bollinger talked to Angels GM Tony Reagins, who said:

"Manny Ramirez will not play for the Angels in 2009, or beyond, for that matter."

2008-12-23 12:09:10
61.   Alex41592
Manny will NOT be an Angel.

"Manny will not be an Angel," Reagins said in his first public comments since the Angels pulled their offer to Teixeira on Sunday. "We're going to give our kids an opportunity to play. We signed [outfielder] Juan Rivera to a three-year deal, and we think, given at-bats, he can be productive player.

"With Torii Hunter, Vladimir Guerrero, Gary Matthews Jr., Reggie Willits, our outfield is intact. It will not happen. We are not going to sign Manny Ramirez. End of story.",0,1392160.story

2008-12-23 12:10:04
62.   Noel
Another infrequent poster here. Thanks to everyone from Jon on down for making this an informative, thought-provoking, often funny and required stop on the World Wide Webb for Dodger fans. May all come to enjoy the blessings of this holy season now and throughout the coming year.
2008-12-23 12:11:23
63.   kwame a
So if Tex goes to NY, Manny is ours?!?
2008-12-23 12:12:12
64.   cargill06
Nice, if NYY can sign Tex maybe we can sign Manny for 3 years $10 million.
2008-12-23 12:13:09
65.   Landonkk
63 One would think... Could The Nationals be players for Manny if they miss out on Tex?
2008-12-23 12:14:19
66.   bferb
63 64 I'm sure some team like the Nationals will jump in out of nowhere.
2008-12-23 12:18:07
67.   Landonkk
Boras is so smart (yet still evil). He essentially used Tex to figure out who is willing to throw big bucks around, used them against each other to increase the offers for Tex and now has the added knowledge that he will use to increase the bidding war on Manny... If Manny's act in Boston didn't ruin it for him.
2008-12-23 12:19:07
68.   Tripon
Something tells me that the teams in it for Tex won't be the same teams in it for Manny.
2008-12-23 12:21:33
69.   Landonkk
68 Well clearly not the Red Sox, but I am not buying that the Angels have NO interest. The Yankees were rumored just yesterday to be going after him and the Nats clearly are looking to make a big splash this off season.
2008-12-23 12:22:43
70.   cargill06
Olney is reporting the Yankees have signed Texiera
2008-12-23 12:22:48
71.   scareduck
61 -- translated to English:

Dear Scott Boras,

The Angels won't let you yank our chains.

 — Love, Arte

2008-12-23 12:23:09
72.   Eric Enders
Boras has got to hope the Sox sign Teixeira since that keeps the greatest number of options open for Manny.
2008-12-23 12:23:59
73.   bhsportsguy
59 I still think Jones would be easier (neither of them, Pierre or Jones, is an easy trade) deal to make if he shows up in shape, healthy and can occasionally hit the ball, the Dodgers pay 12 or so million of his salary and any other bonuses/buyout, they could trade him. (this is assuming they sign Manny).

Despite my good friend, Mr. Brock, insistance that Pierre will not set play a 3rd year for the Dodgers, I still see the length of his deal still too long for teams to take.

2008-12-23 12:24:34
74.   Eric Enders
The Angels have already been the victim of one of the great Boaras chain-yankings in Jered Weaver.
2008-12-23 12:25:12
75.   Tripon
74 Being a victim of Jeff Weaver didn't help the Angels either.
2008-12-23 12:25:12
76.   Eric Enders
Also, that was an honest typo, I didn't mean to imply that Boras was a pig. Although now that you mention it...
2008-12-23 12:27:19
77.   Landonkk
70 link?
2008-12-23 12:27:44
78.   Eric Stephen
Was that on TV?
2008-12-23 12:28:25
79.   Tripon

Heyman says that it's 8 years, 180 million.

What are the Yankees going to do with Captain Jeets after 2010?

2008-12-23 12:28:44
80.   Landonkk
Heyman says Yankees - 8 years $180 mill
2008-12-23 12:31:13
81.   Eric Enders
Maybe Boras is just screwing with Cashman. Like leaving a voicemail for him saying "Mark is excited."
2008-12-23 12:31:37
82.   Tripon

Olney has his piece out, and he says its for 170 million, 8 years.

2008-12-23 12:31:58
83.   arborial
Long time reader, infrequent poster. Thanks Jon for this wonderful site. To explain the sense of community I will share a story.

This saturday I cut my finger and had to get stitches. In the urgent care facility I flipped through the magazines and found the Oscar nomination issue of Variety and read the article on DiCaprio's latest film reuniting him with Kate Winslet. I got to the end of the article and saw that it was written by Jon so I turned to my wife and said, "I know this guy". Now I was not able to attend the picnic so I have not really met Jon in person but in reading the many posts, especially the personal ones that have little if anything to do with baseball I feel like I have gotten to know many of the people that make DT what it is.

Keep it up... and I will do my best to contribute to the community in whatever way I can.

2008-12-23 12:32:23
84.   Eric Enders
"Olney has his piece out"

Quick, everybody duck!

2008-12-23 12:33:06
85.   Bob Timmermann
I should not have read that while answering the phone.
2008-12-23 12:34:59
86.   arborial
84 85 that is exactly what I am talking about.
2008-12-23 12:37:13
87.   Tripon
Aside from the Red Sox, the Brewers and Blue Jays also lose here. Their draft picks from the Yanks for C.C. Sabathia and A.J. Burnett are bumped to the second and third rounds, respectively.


2008-12-23 12:38:27
88.   KG16
84 - I'm apparently losing my mind, because I just laughed incredibly loud at that.
2008-12-23 12:38:51
89.   scareduck
70 - I checked ESPN and found nothing of the sort. Any link for that?
2008-12-23 12:39:55
90.   Alex41592
A-Rod and Teixeira.

Sabathia and Burnett.

Yet I still see them finishing in third.

2008-12-23 12:40:01
91.   Landonkk
2008-12-23 12:40:49
92.   Alex41592
89 -
2008-12-23 12:41:15
93.   MSarg29
Looks like Heyman was right after all.
2008-12-23 12:42:07
94.   cargill06
90 There's no way, they have the best rotation in baseball, the best offense in baseball, and the best closer in baseball.
2008-12-23 12:42:31
95.   Landonkk
The sad part is I can still see the Yanks making a play for Many too.
2008-12-23 12:42:49
96.   LoneStar7
even though we now seem to be definite front runners for Manram, can we assume that Boras has still got 4 or 5 teams still "very interested in offering Manny"
2008-12-23 12:43:20
97.   dianagramr

All we are sayyyying ... is give piece a chance.

2008-12-23 12:44:15
98.   arborial
94 just like the Tigers had the best offense of all time (wish I could make the trademark symbol) going into this season? 1000 runs guaranteed.
2008-12-23 12:44:16
99.   Gen3Blue
Wow, the Yanks are going to have a pretty barren draft.
2008-12-23 12:44:24
100.   D4P
Woah: looks different.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-23 12:45:18
101.   sporky
How many OF/DH/1B do the Yankees have? Teixeira, Matsui, Damon, Nady, Swisher, Cabrera, potentially Posada...?
2008-12-23 12:45:55
102.   Tripon
99 They have so many long term contracts that any kids they drafted this year would be blocked anyway in 3, 4 years.
2008-12-23 12:47:41
103.   El Lay Dave
87 I railed against the compensation scheme yesterday at TBLA:

This system is so ridiculous that only MLB / MLBPA could come up with it

Why do the picks a team receives for losing a Type-A have to be a function of the picks forfeited by the team signing him? Why should Milwaukee, for example, get screwed if the same team signed Sheets AND Burnett? Why should Colorado get hosed from a fountain if a team signs Fuentes and Tex?

If a team loses a Type-A FA, they should receive no worse that two sandwich picks. Either they get an unprotected 1st round pick from the signing team, plus a sandwich pick, or two sandwich picks, with the signing team losing their lower-round picks via the current formula.

2008-12-23 12:48:12
104.   cargill06
98 I don't think anyone ever confused Verlander with CC nor Todd Jones with Mariano.
2008-12-23 12:49:59
105.   bhsportsguy
Lets look at this, on the on hand the Yankees could just go all out and spend nearly a half billion dollars this off-season if they go out and get Manny.

But that seems just too much, even for them.

The Angels are publically saying no to Manny. (Thanks to Bferb and Alex),0,1392160.story

Boston, nope, move on.

Who is left, the Mets but they have been pretty silent on that topic.

I think right now, Ned's waiting and waiting may just pay off, he certainly is not bargaining against himself and Boras is going to have to find some other team to go on the record with interest in Manny before anyone believes him that there is interest outside of the Dodgers.

2008-12-23 12:52:15
106.   Eric Enders
103 How about the Brewers get the Yankees' first-round pick in 2010 and the Jays in 2011? Except I guess that sort of compensation would probably require reducing the number of players who are Type A free agents to remove the Orlando Cabrera and Juan Cruz-type guys.
2008-12-23 12:52:18
107.   ToyCannon
I like Arte letting Ned know that he won't be bidding against him for Manny.

I guess with the Yankee's signing Teixeira that they will now expect the Brewers to pay all of Cameron's salary if they trade for him.

So two teams traded for Teixeira and neither got what they needed. The Braves gave up loads of talent that would easily have allowed them to reel in Peavy while the Angels lost their 1st baseman. Teixeira hit for the Angels during the season but they got him to help with power during the playoffs and he did not deliver. The Braves got Teixeira for playoff runs in 2007 and 2008 and it didn't happen either time.

Looking at the landscape the Rangers were the clear winner in the Teixeira sweepstakes. They are now a top 5 team prospect wise thanks to the infusion of Brave talent.

2008-12-23 12:53:36
108.   Ken Noe
101 There's always room for Matt Kemp ;-)

105 Agree, although the Nats could now become a player for Manny. But I can't see him going there given a choice.

2008-12-23 12:54:01
109.   bhsportsguy
103 Why should teams receive draft picks at all? No other sport operates this way (okay the NFL does but rarely if ever does a team signs those guys since the penalty is a first round draft pick that no team wants to gives up)

I say change the system, allow teams to trade draft picks (limit it to the first 5 rounds), remove compensation picks and sandwich rounds.

2008-12-23 12:57:01
110.   Tripon
109 The NBA operated with draft pick compensation. Its how the Celtics were able to acquire the draft pick to draft Larry Bird.
2008-12-23 12:57:10
111.   El Lay Dave
106 A draft pick is years away from the bigs, if he gets there at all. Delaying the effect of the compensation further doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
2008-12-23 12:57:11
112.   Eric Stephen
Assuming the deal is done (and we know where that got the Braves), here are the guaranteed salaries (including bonuses) for the Yankees in 2009:

C - Posada: $13.1m
1B - Teixeira: $21m (estimated)
2B - Cano: $6m
3B - A-Rod: $33m
SS - Jeter: $20m
OF - Damon: $13m
OF - Swisher: $5.3m
DH - Matsui: $13m
SP - CC: $23m
SP - Burnett: $16.5m
SP - Wang: $5m
CL - Rivera: $15m
RP - Marte: $3.75m

That's $189.65m for 14 players. Throw in the $5m buyout to Giambi and the payroll is up to ~$195m. Cabrera, Nady, and Bruney are all arbitration eligible.

2008-12-23 12:57:26
113.   Eric Enders
109 The compensation is needed as a way of providing negative consequences for teams that spend too much money on free agents. It keeps salaries down overall, while also helping to prevent the Yankees and Red Sox from dominating as much as they otherwise would. A team like the Yankees that spends like a drunken sailor on the likes of Carl Pavano will find itself with a wrecked farm system and thus teams like Tampa Bay will be able to compete with them by using homegrown players.
2008-12-23 12:58:24
114.   Landonkk
109 Most other sports operate with a salary cap however.
2008-12-23 12:59:59
115.   tjdub
I'll be rooting this season and in seasons to come for two things:

1. Dodgers WS champs as I do every year

2. Some combination of the following:
The AJ signing becoming Pavano-esque.
CC winning no more than Mussina did during his contract.
Tex being no more productive during his contract than Giambi was during his.

I think all three of those are distinct possibilities for the Yanks so there is still hope.

2008-12-23 13:00:06
116.   Eric Stephen
The Lakers obtained New Orleans' 1979 #1 pick, among others, when the Jazz signed Gail Goodrich. They used the pick for a 6'8", 200-lb point guard.

I believe the compensation lasted in the NBA for 4 years or so, as part of the initial foray into free agency in 1975.

2008-12-23 13:01:50
117.   jasonungar07
Who is gonna protect A-rod, Jeter and Texiera in that line up? Damon? Matsui? No they're gonna need some help
2008-12-23 13:02:31
118.   bhsportsguy
113 But what if those teams just decide to ignore slot recommendations and pay more when they draft at lower rounds.

While the Giants (and in recent years, the Angels) are examples of teams who chose to give up draft picks, teams that have had them for several seasons certainly have a mixed record of results.

2008-12-23 13:02:48
119.   Tripon
116 Yeah, and the pick that the Celtics used to draft Bird was originally the Clippers first rounder to sign... Bill Walton. The pick itself switched hands between four and five teams, passing through the Trailerblazers hands twice before it settled down in the Celtics hands.
2008-12-23 13:03:24
120.   D4P
My "Manny has to come crawling back to the Dodgers for a lot less money and years than he wanted only to announce at his press conference that he wanted to stay with the Dodgers all along and that the money and years weren't that important to him" scenario is becoming more likely with each passing day.

Course, not paying Manny what he wants hasn't exactly proven to be an effective method of motivating him to perform.

2008-12-23 13:03:58
121.   Humma Kavula
What the Yankees are doing is spending against the possibility of failure.

Sure, any of the things that 115 points out could happen. But for the Yankees to finish third, I think, all of them would have to happen.

I'd hate to be the Blue Jays... would that team win the NL West? (Honest question. I don't know the Jays well enough.)

2008-12-23 13:03:59
122.   JoeyP
I think its a great deal for the Yankees. They get a great player, been healthy all his career, & in his prime.

Getting CC & Tex - great off-season.
Burnett they probably overpaid for, but it doesnt look like the D-Rays will be in the playoffs anytime soon.

2008-12-23 13:04:33
123.   Tripon

Olney says its now 180 million over 8 years, and 22.5 million per year.

2008-12-23 13:05:13
124.   mwhite06
I don't think anyone ever confused Verlander with CC

After the 2007 season Verlander posted an ERA+ of 125 in his age 24 season. In CC's age 24 season he posted a 104 ERA+. Sure at this point, comparing CC and Verlander seems rediculous, but going into 2008 these two certainly would both be mentioned as top tier pitchers.

2008-12-23 13:05:31
125.   JoeyP
120- Maybe, but I'd be shocked to not see the Mets get involved with Manny. They have a ton of money also, as well as a hole in LF. Not to mention, moving into a new stadium, Omar Minaya's like for Latin players, & Manny being from NY. I'd be suprised if he doesnt sign with the Mets.
2008-12-23 13:06:46
126.   bhsportsguy
I just don't think draft pick compesation has the same impact in baseball that it would have in other sports, mainly because there is such a farther path that baseball players have to travel to help the parent team than in basketball and football.

Also, there are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL and the NBA is set up for teams to keep their players by having the Bird rights and that restricted free agents always can be brought back if their original team decides to sign him at whatever he gets.

2008-12-23 13:06:53
127.   El Lay Dave
113 By signing three Type-A FA in one offseason, the Yankees are forfeiting a one, a two, and a three, which decimates the upcoming draft for them, but by bunching their signings into one huge spending binge in one off season, they are actually hurting themselves less draftwise, since they are losing a two and a three for C.C. and A.J. instead of ones over a couple offseasons.

Borrowing the idea in 106 maybe the Brewers should get two sandwiches now for C.C. and the Yanks lose their #1 for next year.

2008-12-23 13:08:14
128.   ToyCannon
Unless they sign Manny, he's still the perfect fit for that team.

The Yankee's scoff at the luxury tax, no other sport has such a huge difference in payroll from team to team. They would take all the fun out of baseball if they were good at spending their money.

I will say this, they finally got it right. That team needed Teixeira much more then they needed AJ Burnett.

2008-12-23 13:08:18
129.   Tripon
125 The Mets right now have Tatis and Murphy penciled in at LF. Not to say that Manny to the Mets wouldn't be a upgrade for them, but... Their owner lost $300,000,000 in the Ponzi scheme created by his good and personal friend. I'm going to say that he isn't in the mood to spend any more money than needed.
2008-12-23 13:11:00
130.   cargill06
Have the Yankees decided what they're doing with Joba yet for next year?
2008-12-23 13:11:25
131.   bhsportsguy
128 If they had signed Lowe for less money, that would have been better.
2008-12-23 13:13:42
132.   bhsportsguy
Would you call up Boras now and offer a guaranteed 3 year deal with a club option 4th year/vest if he reaches certain games/plate appearances e.g. the recent Furcal deal.

The money part, oh I don't know, something averaging over 22 for the first 3 years.

2008-12-23 13:13:46
133.   D4P
Looks like the Nationals are out of the Manny Sweepstakes:

According to Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post, the Nationals signed Corey Patterson and Jorge Sosa to minor league deals.

2008-12-23 13:15:21
134.   fanerman
This Yankee spending spree is a traveshamockery.
2008-12-23 13:16:20
135.   D4P
You can't be expected to pay for your own new stadium when you gotta give so much money to your players.
2008-12-23 13:16:27
136.   JoeyP
Pretty sure they are counting on him to start.


Burnett/Wang/CC are innings eaters when they arent hurt.

The 2009 AL East could be the strongest division in years. I cant really think of another division to compare it too.

2008-12-23 13:17:18
137.   El Lay Dave
109 126 Baseball probably has the "free-est" free agency in the major American sports. No compensation is an interesting idea, but as you point out, baseball draft picks are the "iffiest" proposition anyway, so maybe it's pretty close to no compensation.
2008-12-23 13:17:25
138.   ToyCannon
I don't think I've ever seen a Division as loaded as the AL East is right now since they created Divisional play.
2008-12-23 13:18:03
139.   Alex41592
423.5 million dollar offseason (so far).
2008-12-23 13:20:32
140.   JoeyP
When Fox bought the Dodgers, I figured they'd become like the Yankees since Murdoch had so much money. Didnt quite end up happening.
2008-12-23 13:22:03
141.   D4P
Bill Madden says Teixeira told the Yankees he preferred them all along

Free Agency 101

1. Ask for more years and money than you're likely to get
2. Rely on agent to misinform the media, public, and other teams regarding the level of interest in your services
3. After waiting a while, sign with highest bidder (Team X) who very well may have given you more than they needed to, based on misinformation provided in previous step
4. Tell world that Team X was your first choice all along

2008-12-23 13:22:20
142.   Tripon
Probably because Murdoch has no idea what baseball is.
2008-12-23 13:22:56
143.   Jacob Burch
Two questions:

Is the Pick the yankees got from their failure to sign their draft pick last year protected?

Are we sure that this year's Type A restriction per team is 3, and wasn't expanded to 4?

2008-12-23 13:27:32
144.   natepurcell
Burnett/Wang/CC are innings eaters when they arent hurt.

Isn't the reason why some pitchers aren't innings eaters is because they get hurt?

2008-12-23 13:28:28
145.   Humma Kavula
What if Tampa signs Manny? He's kind of a great fit. DH is a slot they can fill, but only with a superstar.
2008-12-23 13:29:23
146.   gibsonhobbs88
It's amazing to me to see the same Commisioner that manipulated the sale of the Dodgers and stuck his nose in and made sure the Dodgers were hamstrung by a leveraged buyer with assurances they would not pursue Vladimir Guerrero sits idly by and watches the Yankees dramatically shift the balance of power in baseball(totally in contradiction to Commish's powers to do "matters in best interest of baseball") and just counts the money and just gives the Steinbrenner Boys a knowing wink! Way to go Bud! Why don't we just say for every game against the Yankees, the opponents can only send out 6 fielders plus the pitcher to further fix the Yankees chances to win?! Every CC strikeout count as 2 outs? Why disguise it Bud? We all know you "Suck on the teats" of the Yankees anyway, do their bidding like one of ventroliquist Jeff Dunham's dummies! He should make up a new one called "Suck up Commish" wearing a Yankee cap! If they end up with Manny also, I think I will take this summer off from baseball! MLB will become like Pro wrestling, we all will know the outcome, why bother? Can we impeach the Commissioner?
Disgusted in the Valley!
2008-12-23 13:30:55
147.   Humma Kavula
146 In Bud's view, having the Yankees be the Goliath again just might be in the best interest of baseball.

I'd disagree, but I didn't see the playoff series ratings numbers.

2008-12-23 13:30:59
148.   Eric Stephen
I'm reasonably sure the limit is 4 (I believe there were more than 63 free agents this offseason). Plus, that limit doesn't include their own free agents lost. Losing Bobby Abreu adds one more to the Yankees' maximum, as he was a Type A (even though not offered arb).
2008-12-23 13:32:35
149.   El Lay Dave
143 Is the Pick the yankees got from their failure to sign their draft pick last year protected?


2008-12-23 13:32:52
150.   Jacob Burch
148 And I understand their other first rounder for losing out on Coe is protected/can't be forfeited. My word this doesn't sound right at all.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-23 13:33:05
151.   Eric Stephen
Is the Pick the yankees got from their failure to sign their draft pick last year protected?

That pick is treated differently, almost like an in-round sandwich pick. It is protected, even though it is #29 (of 33 -- not 30 -- "1st round" picks).

The same applies to the Mariners at #21.

2008-12-23 13:33:21
152.   bhsportsguy
141 Looks to me that Boras was telling truth that some team was willing to pay more than the reported offers of the Angels, Red Sox and Orioles.

I think Boston's front office owes Boras an apology for accusing him of lying about another offer.

Boras and Teixeira won, they got the best contract available, the other teams have nothing to complain about because they did not surpass that offer.

2008-12-23 13:34:32
153.   gibsonhobbs88
I mean, really - the Yankees will have a $220 million plus payroll as it is - Like 50-60 million more than their next closest pursuers, the Red Sox and about 5 times more than last year's AL champs the Rays, and Selig thinks this is good for the game! He is smoking something more than crack to believe that! I guess he's also getting some double team loving from the SteinBoys, and they got pictures!
2008-12-23 13:36:10
154.   Tripon
152 The Yankees offer was reported to be 8 years, and 160 million when they made it on Sunday. Sounds like Boras told the Yankees they could have Tex if they bumped up the offer, but after the Red Sox, and Angels bowed out.
2008-12-23 13:37:20
155.   trainwreck
Everyone on ESPN is saying the Yankees should add Manny now.

Signing these top players is just nothing to them. While everyone else would be crazy happy to get Teixeira. Yankee fans just want more and more.

2008-12-23 13:40:13
156.   bhsportsguy
155 So no So Cal trip this holiday season.

You'll miss a fine debate on Jacksonian democracy tonight when I meet up with GB at the game at Pauley.

If you come down, let me know, I'll get you in a game.

2008-12-23 13:41:22
157.   Bob Timmermann
Yankee fans just want more and more.

See "University of Southern California -- Football Fans -- Boosters, et al."

See "University of California, Los Angeles -- Basketball Fans -- Boosters, et al."

2008-12-23 13:42:07
158.   trainwreck
Gee, and I have so much to say on Jacksonian democracy.
2008-12-23 13:42:55
159.   trainwreck
UCLA boosters, you mean those old people that go to games and look like they could care less?
2008-12-23 13:43:19
160.   bhsportsguy
158 No, you and I can talk about recruiting. Anyway, hope you can make a game this season.
2008-12-23 13:44:17
161.   bhsportsguy
159 Since I am older than you but don't have those seats, I guess I am spared your outrage.
2008-12-23 13:44:59
162.   trainwreck
Yeah, hopefully.
2008-12-23 13:45:21
163.   Lexinthedena
I think people want the Yanks to sign Manny just to complete the spectacle.
2008-12-23 13:47:04
164.   trainwreck
Yeah, not you.
2008-12-23 13:47:17
165.   Tripon
BTW, that makes it two Boras clients signed now.
2008-12-23 13:49:14
166.   mwhite06
153 Do you have some sort of suggestion of how Bud could fix this Yankees situation ?
2008-12-23 13:49:23
167.   Humma Kavula
Actually, it does sorta kinda make sense for the Yankees to sign Manny now.

If you're going to have a 230 million dollar payroll, why not have a 250 million dollar payroll?

2008-12-23 13:52:53
168.   silverwidow
Outside of Tex and A-Rod, the Yankee lineup doesn't impress me at all.
2008-12-23 13:53:23
169.   regfairfield
Superstars are the new market inefficiency.
2008-12-23 14:01:33
170.   JoeyP
Isn't the reason why some pitchers aren't innings eaters is because they get hurt?

No, some starters stay healthy but never work that deep into games.

CC/Wang/Burnett all can.

2008-12-23 14:03:24
171.   DodgerRule
Hi, I'm Matt -- lifelong Dodgers fan and someone who's greatly enjoyed the site for the last couple of years and read it faithfully but never commented. I'm on the east coast now, so I get to wake up most summer mornings and find out how the Dodgers did the previous night...

Happy holidays!

2008-12-23 14:03:45
172.   DaDoughboy
I wonder how Casey Kotchman is feeling right about now.
2008-12-23 14:05:10
173.   The Trolley Dodger
163 When a few cars crash at a NASCAR event, part of you wants the rest of them to just keep on impacting the pile. Like cop cars in a Blues Brothers chase scene.
2008-12-23 14:05:21
174.   KG16
166 - I can fix the Yankee situation in two words: salary. cap.
2008-12-23 14:05:28
175.   JoeyP
If you're going to have a 230 million dollar payroll, why not have a 250 million dollar payroll?

Yankees are just playing in a different climate than the rest of baseball. Their revenue streams are unparalled.

2008-12-23 14:05:51
176.   ToyCannon
That is why more then anyone else they needed to sign him. Handing the Yankee's the pennant seems premature. The Rays will still have plenty to say.
2008-12-23 14:05:57
177.   Lexinthedena
What are the other owners doing with their revenue shares?
2008-12-23 14:08:26
178.   JoeyP
174- They already pay in a luxury tax. If anything, I believe a salary cap would hurt Yankee fans. The Yankees are going to make as much money as possible, no matter what. For the fans paying $3,000 per game or what not, they probably believe they are entitled to watch a loaded team, rather than pay the same but for a lesser product.

I'd vote for contraction over a salary cap, if you want to level the playing field.

2008-12-23 14:10:25
179.   trainwreck
Sure must suck to be a Blue Jay fan.
2008-12-23 14:11:19
180.   Marty
This makes it really easy to hate the Yankees again. My hatred had waned in the last decade or so. I will get a kick out of any injury or pratfall that hits them.
2008-12-23 14:13:25
181.   Jacob Burch
They won't, but wouldn't the situation where the Yankees sign Manny and Lowe be a laugher? a third and a fifth!
2008-12-23 14:16:36
182.   Tripon
However utility player Pablo Ozuna, who hit just .219 in 36 games for the Dodgers last season, may prove to be the one that got away. Currently a free agent, he led the Dominican league in hitting during the regular season at .390 for Estrellas de Oriente.


2008-12-23 14:17:07
183.   trainwreck
They could have had Johan Santana so easily, but they wanted to keep those pitchers who they will use as backups now.
2008-12-23 14:17:38
184.   trainwreck
LOL, is he having a laugh?
2008-12-23 14:18:09
185.   JoeyP
may prove to be the one that got away.

I'm sure the Dodgers could "catch" Ozuna again if they wanted to.

2008-12-23 14:19:37
186.   KG16
177 - buying homes in foreclosure?

Honestly, there are serious issues with the way that baseball revenue is generated. With the vast majority of games being locally televised, it's a lot harder to level the revenue distribution like they do in football. plus, i think a lot of teams are bad at non-TV revenue generation, while the yankees and red sox (to name two) are very good at it.

2008-12-23 14:23:11
187.   Tripon
The Mets and Lowe are deep in negotiations, according to a source, and while an offer has not yet been made, the 35-year-old sinkerballer is the Mets' prime target.

Looks like a 2nd rounder is all we can hope for.

2008-12-23 14:25:35
188.   underdog
I come back from a nice long bikeride, while on vacation here in Sta Barbara, escaping from sports for a few days, come back to find out Tex is a Yankee, Lowe is likely a Met and wondering if there's anything to root for next year other than Yankee pratfalls/injuries? Baseball's looking good and competitive, Bud.

At least Manny is still out there, and I still think he ends up back in LA.

Oh well, Merry Christmas everyone!

2008-12-23 14:26:55
189.   Jacob Burch
188 You're tempting me to start Bike Thoughts, as I have pooled all known Christmas resources into a new bike this Friday...
2008-12-23 14:27:28
190.   natepurcell

What other teams can we snake a first rounder for Lowe?

2008-12-23 14:27:30
191.   KG16
178 - the luxury tax is clearly ineffective. and quite frankly, i don't care about hurting yankee fans, they've had a pretty good run for the last 100 years or so; the yankees and, to a certain extent the Mets and red sox, are hurting fans of every other team and of baseball in general. nor does contraction help the game either (not to mention the fight the union will put up losing jobs), because it's not going to provide additional revenue to the other teams and its not going to prevent teams like the yankees from spending money like crazy. a hard cap (and floor) that considers salaries from rookie ball all the way through to the MLB team, would make more sense
2008-12-23 14:29:06
192.   trainwreck
I wish I was there eating Mexican food.
2008-12-23 14:29:12
193.   Eric Stephen
K-Rod to the Mets means the Dodgers go from getting #25 (now going to the Angels) to somewhere in the 75-80 range (assuming 17-22 compensatory picks or so). Ouch.
2008-12-23 14:29:19
194.   Tripon
190 The Red Sox.
2008-12-23 14:29:50
195.   Jacob Burch
190 Our own Eric Stephen has a good write up on this:

Basic answer: No one realistically, at least of teams that have been rumored to have any interest before.

2008-12-23 14:29:52
196.   Eric Stephen
I feel like a whore for doing this, but:

2008-12-23 14:30:25
197.   Eric Stephen
Now I don't feel like such a whore! 2 seconds protected my virtue.
2008-12-23 14:30:29
198.   trainwreck
So ToyCannon is your pimp?
2008-12-23 14:30:38
199.   Jacob Burch
195 194 ...Expect the Sawx, right.
2008-12-23 14:33:01
200.   underdog
191 I'm kind of with you. Hasn't football and basketball had a more even playing field since adding a salary cap? There's more parity and more hope for quick recovery for some of the smaller franchises. In baseball it seems more hopeless at least long term.

189 What kinda bike did you get? I really appreciated my lightweight hybrid bike which is at home when riding my stepdad's old bike today, which is a much heavier bike, I was lagging behind everyone.

192 I am so going to Cuca's tonight.

193 KRod is always giving me new reasons to dislike him. Here's another.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-12-23 14:34:05
201.   natepurcell

You write for true blue now!??! Wow, where the hell have I been?

2008-12-23 14:34:06
202.   Tripon
The Angels too, but they seem set in their rotation.
2008-12-23 14:34:09
203.   trainwreck
Awww, so lucky. I want Cucas so bad. Stupid Walnut Creek.
2008-12-23 14:35:13
204.   Deuces are Wild
191 Why are we giving the Yankees the 2009 WS Championship? They missed the playoffs in 2008, and they're replacing a 20-game winner, Mussina with CC (no upgrade), they're replacing Pettitte with Burnett (no upgrade). They're upgrading at 1B (Giambi to Teixeira) downgrading at the OF with the loss of Abreu, and downgrading at Catcher with the aging of Posada, and RP wth the aging of Rivera. Jeter's older too. I put the over/under at 90 wins.
2008-12-23 14:35:18
205.   Eric Stephen
I believe there have only been 8 teams win an NBA championship in the last 29 years or so.
2008-12-23 14:35:56
206.   Bob Timmermann
Storming the field in Las Vegas to celebrate the fact that Arizona now has as many bowl wins as Washington State.
2008-12-23 14:35:57
207.   Jacob Burch
200 2008 Bianchi Volpe. Sort of a cross bike--wider tires than a roadie and a solid steel frame, but drop bars and solid components. With slicks it'd be a demon, but I'll probably keep the wider tires (which aren't knobby at all) for now. My eventual goal is to be able to do some serious weekend touring on it--trips to and from San Diego being a really big goal for me.
2008-12-23 14:37:20
208.   Zak
If I am Manny, wouldn't accepting arbitration from LA been the best move, seeing how everything is panning out? He could have probably gotten $25 mill for one year and next year, with the improved economy, a more desperate LAA, NYM or even the NYY, and his Red-Sox-antics forgotten, he could probably get a 3 year $75 million deal then which would take him into retirement.

As it stands now, his best hope is a team like Tampa Bay. Otherwise, it's Baltimore or Washington, or more likelier, a 3 year $60 mill deal with the Dodgers.

2008-12-23 14:37:46
209.   natepurcell

Good attempt but I did not participate in the storming. It was way to cold to do that and I was way too inebriated to even attempt getting on the field.

Annndddd, it was absolutely retarded.

2008-12-23 14:38:36
210.   Jacob Burch
Man we are being dicey with Rule 1 today. I Blame the Yankees entirely.
2008-12-23 14:41:09
211.   mwhite06
204 While I agree with the sentiment that handing the Yankees the WS next year is premature, I don't see how exchanging CC for Mussina and Pettite for Burnett could be viewed as anything but huge upgrades.
2008-12-23 14:41:50
212.   sporky
196 Belated congrats!
2008-12-23 14:43:39
213.   Zak
The 2009 Yankees are a Mariano Rivera injury/deterioration away from being the 2008 Mets, but in a tougher division. The beauty of baseball is that there is no guarantee that NYY makes the playoffs next year.

That being said, CC/Wang/Burnett is scary good on paper. At least as good as Lester/Beckett/Dice-K.

2008-12-23 14:44:51
214.   underdog
207 Nice! A good bike. Enjoy.

I'm quite happy with my Giant hybrid (the brand, not referring to the size).

203 Hey, some excellent SF taquerias (16th or 24th Sts) are only a BART ride away.

205 True. But at least quite a few other teams and their fans feel like they have a shot at the playoffs and even at getting far into them. (Even if overoptimistic.) Look how far the Hornets have come in 3 years.

2008-12-23 14:46:45
215.   Tripon
Matt Holiday shall be a Yankee in 2010.
2008-12-23 14:47:43
216.   Jacob Burch
214 The thing I found odd about a lot of hybrids was the suspension fork. It's a great solution for those who want to commute to work and go on mountain trails, but I see so many people get a hybrid with suspension and use it purely as a commuter, which seems puzzling to me. Why spend an extra couple hundred (or more, depending) for something negative?
2008-12-23 14:48:12
217.   KG16
200 - well, football and basketball don't really have minor league systems like baseball does, so that's one issue. but yes, there more opportunities in those sports for quicker turnarounds and for teams to be competitive (the fact that 8 teams have won all the NBA titles in the last 30 years, give or take, is beside the point, because most have at least made the conference finals in that same period, the Grizzlies and Clippers excepted). but when there are three teams that can simply decide that they are going to spend a billion dollars over the next four years, and no one else can spend more than half of that in the same period, you have a problem.

or you go with George Carlin's plan - move the Dodgers back to Brooklyn, the Giants to Manhattan, and then leave the Mets in Queens and the Yankees in the Bronx and get rid of everyone else.

2008-12-23 14:49:49
218.   underdog
You know, I'm getting tired of reading about -- now in the LA Times today -- how if the Broncos lose next week and miss the playoffs it'll be an all-time choke job, and maybe even Shanny's job is in jeopardy. That definitely won't happen, and as maddening as it's been for fans, it's hard to call it a choke when a team loses 7 running backs to injured reserve, in addition to some other key injuries. They weren't even expected to win the division this year. Whatever.
2008-12-23 14:51:59
219.   underdog
216 Yeah, I agree. I use it for commuting but also for some off road and riding in the park. (But also the streets in SF are so full of sharp junk that having racing tires is a recipe for an almost daily flat tire. While off-road/mtn tires are too heavy for the hills.)
2008-12-23 14:53:35
220.   El Lay Dave
2008 Yankees Leaders in Games Started:

Mussina 34
Pettitte 33
Rasner 20
Wang 15
Ponson 15
Joba 12
Kennedy 9
Hughes 8

A rotation of C.C., Burnett, Wang, Joba, Hughes looks like a signficant improvement to me, and they still might get Pettitte signed to that one-year deal.

2008-12-23 14:56:21
221.   Zak
218 when a team loses 7 running backs to injured reserve, in addition to some other key injuries. They weren't even expected to win the division this year

All this is true and are problems that they have done a great job overcoming. But, by it's very definition, if they are 8-5 and need one more win in their next 3 games, including a home game against one of the worst teams in the NFL over the past 8 weeks nad they lose, lose and lose... my friend, there are very few more clear cut definitions of a choke job. Now I hate the Chargers, so I hope Denver wins the division, but there is no doubt that they are choking. Maybe they can get the same ref next week who officiated their gift win against SD earlier this season.

2008-12-23 14:56:24
222.   DaDoughboy
Congrats for the Super Cucas...color me jealous.

I heard an funny topic today on AM790 about how high school sports divisions are sometimes split up by number of students per school. They (Loose Cannons I think) were saying that baseball should split itself into divisions based on salary. Based on 2007 salaries:

Richer than God Division:
Yankees-Tigers-Mets-Red Sox-White Sox
Ritchie Rich Division:
Big Spender Division:
Cardinals-Blue Jays-Phillies-Astros-Brewers
Rainy Day Division:
Penny Pincher Division:
Foodstamp Division:

Does this mean anything? No, not really..kinda like how money doesn't mean anything in baseball anymore.

2008-12-23 14:57:13
223.   MC Safety
Great. Arsenal talisman Cesc Fabregas out 3-4 months. There went whatever hope Arsenal fans had of turning things around. What a crap weekend.
2008-12-23 14:59:47
224.   thinkblue0
While the signing doesn't give the Yanks the championship, it does make the whole league seem stale.

All the time they buy the best players (of course it's that much more satisfying when they lose) and the other teams are left out in the cold.

Hate to say it, but MLB probably needs a salary cap.

2008-12-23 15:00:10
225.   Zak
223 But they are close to signing Arshavin, who should replace Cesc short-term. Thanks to Liverpool and Chelsea's ineptness, Arsenal are still kind of in this race. Huge game on Friday for them at Villa. Great goal by RvP this weekend though.
2008-12-23 15:00:40
226.   Deuces are Wild
Mussina went 20-9, while Pettitte went 14-14.
I think it is realistic to expect CC to go 20-9 in '09, while Burnett could go 16-14. Sure, they're both extremely valuable, but I don't see it as much as an upgrade because to the guys they're replacing. Look for Pettitte to be reunited with Joe Torre in Dodgertown (isn't that the new name of Chavez Ravine?)
2008-12-23 15:04:24
227.   Humma Kavula
226 This begs the question. How did the Yankees perform in Mussina's and Pettitte's no-decisions? Is there a reason to believe that Sabathia or Burnette would improve the Yankees' chances to win in games in which they do not get the decision?

Has there been a study about no decisions?

2008-12-23 15:07:06
228.   Zak
218 Also, injuries in the NFL are a lame excuse. Look at what the Patriots are doing in a much tougher division.
2008-12-23 15:08:23
229.   Eric Stephen
226 ,227
The Yankees were 23-11 in Mussina's 34 starts, and 15-18 in Pettitte's 33 starts.

I don't really like this method for evaluation, but here's the other side:

CC's teams went 22-13 in his starts
Toronto was 20-14 in Burnett's starts

So the Yankees are replacing 38-29 with 42-27.

2008-12-23 15:08:27
230.   D4P
Look at what the Patriots are doing in a much tougher division


2008-12-23 15:09:20
231.   Eric Stephen
I have an idea for a New Year's resolution for you.
2008-12-23 15:09:41
232.   MC Safety
225 Lol. Yeah, and I'm getting a helicopter for Christmas. That's a good one. That's about the equivalent of me saying the Dodgers are signing Tex AND CC. I just don't see Arsene spending 20 million on one player. Maybe a couple of kids, but I doubt we're going to see any difference makers.

RvP is in top form right now. That was top top class, as Wenger always says.

2008-12-23 15:10:28
233.   alex 7
I think you also have to factor in the expected decline of Mussina and Pettitte due to age. Oh, and the couple of bombs C.C. will drop as a pinch hitter.
2008-12-23 15:10:31
234.   El Lay Dave
226 Burnett's ERA was a half-run lower than Pettitte's (7 ERA+); Sabathia's 2/3 lower than Mussina's (30 ERA+).
2008-12-23 15:12:35
235.   kene
Stopping by to say "hi" like you asked Jon.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everybody.

(Looks like the Yanks will not be players for Manny! Good news)

2008-12-23 15:13:12
236.   El Lay Dave
234 ... 2/3 of a run lower ...
2008-12-23 15:13:40
237.   CeyHey10
223 225 Agreed. And similarly depressed.

On the optimistic side, perhaps today's Fabregas news and Teixera news makes Arshavin and Manny inevitable signings for the Gunners and Dodgers, respectively.

2008-12-23 15:13:40
238.   Zak
230 Whining... no that was you.

The answer is winning.

2008-12-23 15:13:42
239.   fiddlestick
If you really want to shake things up and keep the offseason interesting, adopt the DH for all teams, eliminate the semi-geographical divisions and draw the division alignments at random at the winter meetings like a World Cup draw.
2008-12-23 15:15:16
240.   D4P
Cheating and winning aren't mutually exclusive, despite the old saying to the contrary.
2008-12-23 15:16:01
241.   Zak
232 I would say that the odds that Arsenal will sign Arshavin or De Rossi are a little better than the Dodgers will resign Manny.

You gotta be careful, coz you might end up with a helicopter.

2008-12-23 15:16:12
242.   CeyHey10
232 But Arsene himself said as much today -- that the CF injury makes it significantly more likely that they'll announce a signing in the winter transfer period. Of course, he also, as usual, insisted that the youngsters could step up and fill in just fine.
2008-12-23 15:18:59
243.   MC Safety
237 Another Gunner! Nice.

I'd take Arshavin and Ramirez for Crimbo.

2008-12-23 15:19:43
244.   Eric Stephen
For a second I thought you were talking about former Palm Springs (and Anaheim) Angel Jorge Fabregas.
2008-12-23 15:20:09
245.   DaDoughboy
I look forward to seeing Jay Cutler throwing the ball 60 times in person this weekend.

You're right, injuries aren't an excuse, but not even having a servicable running back period is a definite reason for finishing the season in such terrible fashion. Imagine if Matt Cassell were hurt too in week 5, then his back-up was hurt in week 8. That's what the Broncos have gone through this year.

2008-12-23 15:22:06
246.   Zak
Of all the English clubs, Arsenal has the best Champions League draw. In addition to that, they may be outsiders in the EPL title race. I think Wenger will want to go for it in the Champions League considering some big names will be out by the quarter-finals. I see him signing at least one midfielder, and maybe even two, although the second one will inevitably be a young man from France.
2008-12-23 15:24:06
247.   CeyHey10
243 :) Actually, not nearly as informed as you -- I always enjoy your Gunnerthoughts.

For a lark, let's play "whose kids would you prefer?"

Dodgers: Martin, Bills, Kemp, Ethier, Broxton


Gunners: Cesc, Walcott, Vela, Ramsey, Nasri?

2008-12-23 15:24:23
248.   MC Safety
242 From what I've heard Arsene is open to the idea, but then he just goes on about his unwavering support for his current squad.
2008-12-23 15:25:40
249.   LogikReader
Underdog, were you here in SB while I was away in SF over the weekend? Wow, how about that irony??

Ah, if I wasn't headed to my parents, I'd absolutely invite you to join me at Super Cucas tonight (I presume the Westside location). Hope you're enjoying your stay out here!

2008-12-23 15:25:45
250.   Zak
245 I agree... but they should not have lost to Buffalo even with their 4th string QB is what I think.

To put another way, if there was not pressure on Denver to win this past weekend, I think they would have won. I believe that they are choking, and I say this while rooting for them to win against the Chargers.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-12-23 15:26:42
251.   DaDoughboy
for you futbol/soccer fans that have an xbox, I highly suggest getting FIFA 09. Greatest sports video game ever. My wife was nice enough to give it to me as an early xmas present. I'm thinking she's sorry she did..
2008-12-23 15:27:51
252.   bferb
245 I am looking forward to the Chargers getting redemption this weekend. As bad as they have played all season, the Broncos D is atrocious. You can't blame their losses on the injured tailbacks. They still have the second best offense in the league.
2008-12-23 15:38:49
253.   MC Safety
246 Roma are having a good season. They were looking good with The Emperor in top form, but he's just picked up an injury.

247 Hah. Arsene could definitely teach Ned a few things about a youth movement.

251 That's a great game.

2008-12-23 15:40:53
254.   Jacob Burch
I'm taking Broncos and the points this weekend. Not for money, but for pride. So all you charger fans can prepare to laugh at me on Monday.
2008-12-23 15:44:54
255.   CeyHey10

Bonus: Denilson



2008-12-23 15:45:51
256.   bferb
How are there this many DENVER fans on DODGERTHOUGHTS? I've never understood the propensity for Southern California residents (former or current) being Bronco fans. Is it because of Elway?
2008-12-23 15:47:06
257.   trainwreck
I think it is some kind of disease.
2008-12-23 15:47:41
258.   fanerman
256 Meh. I say, it's because LA doesn't have a football team, so there are fans of football teams everywhere.
2008-12-23 15:48:47
259.   underdog
Logik, I'm in SB all week. Though my mom seems to have booked up most of my time. Tonight's one of the rare nights free. Ah well.

Zak, yeah, I guess I'd say they're blowing it more than choking, though either is depressing to me. Their passing offense is still terrific but when you have no running game and you've had one RB after another go out, there's no consistency and no opponent will pay much attention to that, the passing game is affected, too. Also, I agree, the defense has been mostly terrible this season, though it got better when they switched back to the 4-3, but they've also been hard hit by injuries there, too. Champ Bailey one of the best CBs in the game, has missed most of the season. Their entire starting LB corps was out for a month (with one of them still out, for the season). Yes, other teams have had injuries, too, but I have been a Broncos fan for 28 years and i can tell you that this is the most they've been devastated by injuries in as long as I can remember.

Btw, the 4th string Buffalo QB thing? Don't know what you're talking about, though I agree they still played badly on defense. They were facing the Bills first string QB in Trent Edwards, who hadn't played in 3 weeks. Denver still should've stopped them, but he's a good QB and that 's a bit different than facing their backups. Even vs Losman the result would've been different. Still, injuries and all that, they should've taken care of business in that game and now they have an uphill climb. I hope they can surprise and knock off SD, but I won't consider this season a choke job, more of a big bummer.

Oh well, hopefully they draft almost all defense in the draft next year.

2008-12-23 15:49:07
260.   fanerman
258 Last clause there is worded pretty meh, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
2008-12-23 15:49:17
261.   Tripon
Because being a fan of the Oakland Raiders is the definition of sanity.
2008-12-23 15:50:14
262.   underdog
256 - There aren't that many Broncos fans on DT, really. And I'm weird -- I've been a fan growing up in SoCal since the late 70s, so well before Elway, and it was partially because I didn't like the other choices, liked some of their players, and that they were close enough to root for. sort of rooted for the Rams, too, growing up, but gave up on them long ago.
2008-12-23 15:50:30
263.   trainwreck
Some fans actually stick with their team regardless of their ineptitude.
2008-12-23 15:51:20
264.   trainwreck
I hope Hallux is alright. He has not been around in days.
2008-12-23 15:51:56
265.   Tripon
263 Al Davis loves you too.

I'm lucky in a way, the Raiders and Rams left when I was in 5th grade, and I didn't attach to any team in their absence. I just root for chaos.

2008-12-23 15:52:02
266.   fanerman
For the record, I hate it when coaches call timeouts as the kicker is kicking a game-deciding field goal to "ice" him. That is the definition of lame. And Shanahan seems to enjoy doing that. So I hate the Broncos. I also hate the Raiders though I'm amused at their incompetence. I have no idea why the Chiefs are in the West. So I cheer for the Chargers by default.
2008-12-23 15:52:20
267.   underdog
264 - I was wondering about that too, haven't seen him here in a long time actually. Maybe he defected to the Rockies. No, he's not that nutty.
2008-12-23 15:53:06
268.   trainwreck
I am young enough to have no love for Al Davis.
2008-12-23 15:53:18
269.   underdog
I hereby sentence Fanerman to becoming a Seahawks fan, so I can still speak to him.
2008-12-23 15:54:14
270.   Jacob Burch
I didn't think there were more than 2 Denver fans. Just because I think San Diego is going to give it up this weekend doesn't make me a fan--I dislike San Diego and Denver both. Although Chargers a little bit more, just because Phil Rivers isn't a very nice fellow.
2008-12-23 15:54:51
271.   MC Safety
Matt Kemp would make a heck of a CDM. He'd make Patrick Viera circa 2004 look like Abou Diaby circa 2008.
2008-12-23 15:55:08
272.   DaDoughboy
I used to be primarily a Niners fan since the late 80's. Then college came and I went to UCSB, where football doesn't mean a whole lot. Then I met my wife-to-be in '02 and her Bronco rabid family. They sucked me in. I'm proud to say I'm a Bronco fan due to my wife. Now we are going to our 5th annual Chargers/Broncos game :)
2008-12-23 15:56:12
273.   fanerman
What is a CDM?
2008-12-23 15:57:43
274.   Eric Stephen
Aren't you rooting for the Chargers so you can go to a Colts playoff game?
2008-12-23 15:57:45
275.   Bob Timmermann
2008-12-23 16:00:22
276.   Tripon
Its ridiculous that the Chargers or Broncos get a home playoff game.
2008-12-23 16:01:05
277.   Jacob Burch
274 I doubt I could afford tickets, and while I think the Colts would do equally well against both teams (where the Colts would basically be playing themselves--they should handle both teams easily if they don't shoot themselves in their run blocking foot, which could very well happen. I'd give it 50/50), the thought of losing to San Diego two years in a row sort of makes me sick. At least against Denver I can think of the last three times the teams met ;)
2008-12-23 16:01:27
278.   Bluebleeder87

I'm strickly a baseball dude but I have friends who are fans of:

& one nut who loves UCS football

2008-12-23 16:02:06
279.   Tripon

new details of Furcal's contract. Somebody alert Cot's!

A $12-million club option for 2012 will vest if Furcal makes 600 plate appearances in 2011. If Furcal makes 625 plate appearances that season, he will have the choice of voiding the option.

If Furcal makes 1,600 plate appearances in the first three years, the Dodgers would have to pay him $1.3 million if they fail to exercise his option. If Furcal reaches 1,600 plate appearances from 2009-2011 and gets his option picked up, $1.3 million will be added to his base salary in 2012.

2008-12-23 16:02:13
280.   Zak
276 Arizona too.. I agree.
2008-12-23 16:02:33
281.   underdog
I love being able to watch Reno 911 while working, with the thought of Cuca's in a couple of hours. Makes up for depressing NFL Thoughts. ;-)

Alrighty, later folks.

2008-12-23 16:04:27
282.   trainwreck
Can you FedEx me some nachos?
2008-12-23 16:05:06
283.   underdog
You know, through all their inconsistency and bad losses, the Broncos have also won some tough road games this year. So they'd almost be better off playing away from home, first time I'd ever say that about them, and while I certainly wouldn't favor them (or the Chargers) in any playoff game, I think teams would also make a mistake in looking past them or assuming anything. Both teams can be deadly dangerous. Very Jekyll and Hyde.
2008-12-23 16:05:13
284.   Eric Stephen
I have a bet with a dude in my office that the Colts will be favored over the Chargers in round 1. The bet is null and void if Denver wins.
2008-12-23 16:06:05
285.   Tripon
283 The Chargers are coached by Norv Turner. They're playing with a disadvantage from the start.
2008-12-23 16:06:45
286.   underdog
Wish I could.

But I'm telling ya, great nachos at El Farolito or La Cumbre, only a BART away man.

2008-12-23 16:06:51
287.   Zak
281 Later underdog.. I truly will be rooting for your team this weekend.
2008-12-23 16:07:18
288.   fanerman
Cya underdog. Go Seahawks!
2008-12-23 16:08:03
289.   silverwidow
SS Furcal
RF Ethier
LF Manny
1B Loney
C Martin
CF Kemp
3B Blake
2B DeJesus (ETA June/July)

This lineup is badass, IMO.

2008-12-23 16:09:19
290.   DaDoughboy
Agreed. Especially considering the fact that the Pats might miss the playoffs at 11-5. Ouch. And Zak, I think the Pats have really played above anybodys expectation (except their own of course) and am pulling for them to make the playoffs over Miami..
2008-12-23 16:10:04
291.   MC Safety
I root for the Eagles. I met Randall Cunningham when I was a kid. Desean Jackson is pretty easy to root for, too. Gotta support my fellow Long Beachers.
2008-12-23 16:11:22
292.   trainwreck
I will have to check those places out sometime.
2008-12-23 16:16:03
293.   Bluebleeder87

I'm hoping for a nice 20+ dinger season for Martin.

Also hoping that Bills adds to his already blosoming (sp) career.

Kershaw, we're looking at you for a break out year.

2008-12-23 16:16:04
294.   Zak
290 I know. For sure at least one or two teams will miss out with 10-6 records or better while two 8-8 teams could end up with home field advantage in the first round.
2008-12-23 16:19:19
295.   Bluebleeder87
I don't think Broxton will be a good "close shop" guy for us.
2008-12-23 16:21:43
296.   68elcamino427
Manny plus two starting pitchers please.
2008-12-23 16:28:07
297.   yoshsmenge
I'm a longtime lurker who has never commented before but figured this was a good time. Dt has really enhanced my enjoyment of dodger baseball (esp since I'm a long distance fan, living in Oregon), and having read so long, you get to feel like you know the frequent commenters. Though the last couple of threads have proven that I don't know some of you as well as I thought I did (guessed wrong on genders on at least a couple of people). Anyway, wanted to say hello, and also that I have enjoyed the posts of you all on what is the most civil and enjoyable blogs I've encountered.
2008-12-23 16:28:15
298.   Zak
295 I think he would be among the top 10 closers in baseball in 2009. But, he will also blow a couple of heart-breaking saves, and almost everyone will only remember those moments in defining him.
2008-12-23 16:29:45
299.   Jim Hitchcock
296 All you want for Christmas is your two front teeth? :)
2008-12-23 16:30:36
300.   trainwreck
According to Sportscenter, the Raiders this season have the second highest payroll in history of American sports.

Good grief.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-12-23 16:30:53
301.   Zak
I want a hippopotamus for Christmas.
2008-12-23 16:32:52
302.   trainwreck
Not a hiphopopotamus?
2008-12-23 16:36:00
303.   DaDoughboy
I've always been more a rhymenocerous guy myself..
2008-12-23 16:37:37
304.   Zak
302 Then my lyrics would be bottomless.
2008-12-23 16:43:10
305.   Eric Stephen
According to Sportscenter, the Raiders this season have the second highest payroll in history of American sports

There's no way that's true. Did they give an amount? The Yankees payroll the last few years has to be higher.

2008-12-23 16:43:11
306.   Bluebleeder87
I understand the reasoning behind not signing Sito though.
2008-12-23 16:44:10
307.   trainwreck
Or at least highest non-Yankee one.

They said $152 million. I do not even know how that is possible.

2008-12-23 16:44:48
308.   D4P
The website I just looked at says the Raiders's payroll is somewhere around $99 million. The Yankees blow that much on pinch-hitters.
2008-12-23 16:47:58
309.   Eric Stephen
USA Today also shows $152m. It has to include signing bonuses, etc as well.

2008-12-23 16:49:05
310.   trainwreck
$53 million is quite a disparity. I swear ESPN has to have this wrong.
2008-12-23 16:49:43
311.   trainwreck
Wow, biggest failure ever.

Epic fail!

2008-12-23 16:51:32
312.   Eric Stephen
Maybe the Yankees will take a page out of Al Davis's playbook and cut Nick Swisher if he's hitting .240 in May.
2008-12-23 16:51:41
313.   trainwreck
Janikowski counts $3 million against the cap.

Oy vey.

2008-12-23 16:52:36
314.   Marty
Underdog and Trainwreck, if you ever get down to L.A. I'll take you for some Mexican food that will make you forget anything you've had in Santa Barbara.
2008-12-23 16:54:02
315.   trainwreck
Woo hoo!

I sure have a lot of incentives to come down to LA.

2008-12-23 16:56:15
316.   Eric Stephen
I have a running joke with my cousin that the reason the Raiders drafted a kicker #17 is because they clearly had no other needs. :)
2008-12-23 16:57:00
317.   Eric Stephen
I generally don't condone food that alters one's memory.
2008-12-23 16:58:40
318.   fanerman
313 Good use of the phrase "oy vey."
2008-12-23 17:00:09
319.   Bluebleeder87
Guess what you guys!!!!
I'm at the airport waiting for a friend...
& I just took a picture of Kuroda!!!!!
He was just here in LAX!
2008-12-23 17:01:20
320.   Bluebleeder87
Whoo hoo!!!
2008-12-23 17:01:34
321.   fanerman
319 Good work!
2008-12-23 17:01:42
322.   Eric Stephen
Coming or going? Maybe the Dodgers employed Kuroda to try to convince Saito to come back.
2008-12-23 17:03:42
323.   Jim Hitchcock
319 Did he pause for it?
2008-12-23 17:04:04
324.   Jim Hitchcock
And did you get the grin?
2008-12-23 17:04:29
325.   Bluebleeder87
I'll post it on the DT Flickr if you don't believe.
He looks taller on tv.
2008-12-23 17:06:20
326.   trainwreck
Mike Stoops is getting a three-year extension.


2008-12-23 17:08:30
327.   Bluebleeder87
Yes I got the grin. He was with two dudes one was the interpreter I've seen during Dodger games.

The picture looks a little blurry though. Rats!

2008-12-23 17:10:28
328.   Bob Timmermann
Mike Stoops is getting a three-year extension.


2008-12-23 17:12:38
329.   Jim Hitchcock
He looks taller on tv.

Not if he was standing next to Bob :)

You got the grin, though. That's cool.

2008-12-23 17:13:34
330.   Bob Timmermann
The good Japanese pitchers are usually fairly tall. That's one reason why they got those jobs in the first place.
2008-12-23 17:13:51
331.   fanerman
2008-12-23 17:15:14
332.   Bob Timmermann

2008-12-23 17:15:35
333.   trainwreck
Warriors trotted out maybe the worst starting lineup I have ever seen.

CJ Watson
Kelenna Azubuike
Marco Belinelli
Brandan Wright
Andris Biedrins

2008-12-23 17:19:29
334.   MC Safety
333 I won tix to the Lakers v Warriors game the 28th at my gf's xmas party!
2008-12-23 17:22:42
335.   Gagne55
So with Tex going to NYY, does that mean Manny is coming back?
2008-12-23 17:23:34
336.   trainwreck
You will get to see a Lakers victory.
2008-12-23 17:25:05
337.   dkminnick
314 Where, Marty?
2008-12-23 17:40:28
338.   Lexinthedena
337 As my father said, "you can't throw a stone in L.A without hitting a good taco joint". Marty, you should join us on our food hop in June when he visits.
2008-12-23 17:42:35
339.   Who Is Karim Garcia
how long before the government asks the yankees for a bailout?
2008-12-23 17:44:04
340.   Who Is Karim Garcia

did someone say, food hop?

BTW, lex... I just saw the dodgerthoughts flickr. I swear there is a picture where I'm about to run you over at the plate.

2008-12-23 17:45:35
341.   Ranma
Just want to chime in with how grateful I am for what Jon has provided on this site where someone from anywhere on the globe can engage in friendly, insightful, entertaining, and heartfelt banter with people who have shared interests.

As a former moderator of a sports team fan message board, I can attest to how difficult it is to maintain a civil and productive environment for the exchange of thoughts and ideas, especially when your team is going through a dry spell.

I've also found that the success of any forum directly correlates to the quality of its contributors. Dodger Thoughts is definitely no different in that respect. I'm always impressed with how welcoming and constructively critical the patrons to this forum are. My hats off to everyone one.

In the spirit of giving, I'd like to point everyone to a heartwarming tale of forbidden love between a rabbit and cat told in five Flash-animated episodes. The author has a real knack for storytelling visuals and it took him five years to complete the "There She Is" series so if anyone is interested, please go to the following link:

2008-12-23 17:50:27
342.   Bumsrap
Out of no where comes my two cents on the Yankees. I would love them to sign Manny, What good is a drink without a straw to stir it.
2008-12-23 17:51:33
343.   Lexinthedena
349 So you tried to Pete Rose me eh?....luckily I was in the "Packrat" position.
2008-12-23 17:53:28
344.   Bumsrap
343 - If you are such a physic, tell us if the Yankees will win the World Series in 2009
2008-12-23 18:05:44
345.   Zak
344 I'll bet they won't.
2008-12-23 18:06:19
346.   Marty

1. Babita in San Gabriel. Best Mexican restaurant in L.A. County IMO. Get the chiles en nogada when they are in season (which is now). Also try the habanero shrimp
2. Guelaguetza in Koreatown for Oaxacan moles.
3. Tacos Baja Ensenada in East L.A. for fish tacos just like in Mexico.
4. La Seranita de Garibaldi in East L.A. for seafood.
5. La Parian on Pico for Birria and Carne Asada.
6. Sandra & Lolitas in East L.A. for Tamales (they are across the street from #3)

There's also a couple of floating taco stands on Olympic where you can get al pastor right off the spit.

2008-12-23 18:10:50
347.   mintxcore
I've been meaning to get to Tacos Baja Ensenada for almost a year now... One of these days I will make the journey.

And what gives! I miss out on all the SB/Cucas Thoughts because I'm too busy here visiting SB! haha. Cucas is in my future, though tonight is either Natural Cafe or Shellfish Co!

2008-12-23 18:17:24
348.   Marty
I'll be at Sandra & Lolitas tomorrow morning picking up tamales for Christmas. I'm having a bunch of people over and I'm doing Mexican food. I'll make the enchiladas and posole.
2008-12-23 18:19:37
349.   trainwreck
Now that is a Christmas feast I would like.
2008-12-23 18:24:14
350.   mintxcore
Yum! We will be having tamales on xmas here as well... best tradition ever!
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-12-23 18:27:47
351.   Indiana Jon
So with the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels not bidding on Manny, exactly who is our competition? The Nationals? Rays? Orioles?
2008-12-23 18:33:07
352.   JWilder
Long time reader, very rarely comment. I've been reading since close to the beginning .. in fact I e-mailed you early on. Jon, I love what you and many of the commenters have going on here. I check the site just about everyday. I've been a Dodger fan since I can remember. Thanks to Jon and all of the loyal commenters who make being a Dodger fan fun ... even during those off years.

I'd like to get Manny back this season but I really do think this team could do great things without him on the team.

Wishing you all a happy end to to 2008 and a great and healthy 2009.

2008-12-23 18:33:17
353.   Eric Stephen
The Lakers showed up tonight! Something about New Orleans on the 2nd night of back to backs.

1st meeting: Lakers 51-30 at half
tonight: Lakers 56-37 at half

Let's hope the inevitable Chris Paul comeback again comes up short.

2008-12-23 18:33:35
354.   trainwreck
ESPN said the Nationals, but it is not likely Manny would sign there since they stink.

Let's just get this done and not bungle it.

2008-12-23 18:34:18
355.   Eric Stephen
I think the only other possibilities are Mets and Orioles, both unlikely.
2008-12-23 18:39:15
356.   Sac Town Dodger Fan
333 I beg to differ

G Beno Udrih
G Salmons
F Garcia
F Hawes
C Miller

/bitter Kings fan
//almost forgot Mikki Moore coming off the bench!

2008-12-23 18:39:16
357.   Sac Town Dodger Fan
333 I beg to differ

G Beno Udrih
G Salmons
F Garcia
F Hawes
C Miller

/bitter Kings fan
//almost forgot Mikki Moore coming off the bench!

2008-12-23 18:41:37
358.   Sac Town Dodger Fan
sorry for the double post!
2008-12-23 18:43:08
359.   dkminnick
346 Holy smokes, I haven't been to a single one of those. Looks like I've my work cut out for me. Thanks for the tips. We should meet at one early in the New Year.
2008-12-23 18:46:08
360.   Eric Stephen
If the Mets don't sign Manny, the Angels will get picks #25 (Mets) & #26 (Yankees) in the 2009 draft.

The Angels are reportedly interested in Type A Brian Fuentes, which would cost them their 1st rounder, #33. If they don't sign Fuentes, and Garland signs elsewhere, the Angels will have 6 picks in no more than the first 55 picks of the draft.

2008-12-23 18:47:56
361.   Sam DC
Corey Patterson is no Mark Texeira alright.
2008-12-23 18:53:21
362.   KingKopitar
Woohoo, Anze Kopitar actually played well and 23-year-old Jonathan Quick got his 1st career shutout!

/bitter Kings fan

2008-12-23 18:54:02
363.   Eric Stephen
The best part of this blog post is the title:

"Nats Sign Five (Including Two Named Gustavo)"

2008-12-23 18:56:40
364.   Marty
I made a mistake in my list. #5 should be El Parian, not La Parian.
2008-12-23 19:00:11
365.   Bob Timmermann
I guess it was a good idea I didn't open a Poinsettia Bowl open thread on the Griddle.

Although that looks like a corker!

2008-12-23 19:01:48
366.   Sam DC
You should have put up a Women's Long Drive Championship thread.

That would've got 'em talking.

2008-12-23 19:05:26
367.   Bob Timmermann
Or I could have challenged anybody to get 100% on the Sporcle quiz about the top 20 in stolen bases in MLB history.
2008-12-23 19:09:16
368.   Sam DC
DC is a town with three seriously dysfunctional sports franchises and the much-ignored Capitals.

Caps were down 4-0 starting the 3rd period and came back to tie nad win in OT. Apparently, that's only the second time the Rangers have given up a 4-0 lead in NY (other time was 30 years ago).

2008-12-23 19:12:26
369.   Bob Timmermann
The Caps are the only DC sports team I've seen play in DC.
2008-12-23 19:16:43
370.   Bluebleeder87
O.K fellas (just got home) I just uploaded the Kuroda pic. 323 324 he actually has the "I just gave up a home run" look...

it's pretty crazy cause I was just minding my own business waiting for my buddy & looked up & there here was. I'm not one to stop anybody from what there doing to get a pic or a hand shake but I was like 5 feet from the dude, pretty freaking cool man!

2008-12-23 19:18:08
371.   trainwreck
It could be worse. You could be in Oakland.
2008-12-23 19:21:42
372.   Sam DC
368 I should say, I managed to ignore the most successful sports franchise in recent district history -- DC United.
2008-12-23 19:22:53
373.   Rolex
The Yankees cannot sign Manny Ramirez or Derek Lowe, the cap on a team signing type A free agents is 3 this year and they would be in violation of the CBA.
2008-12-23 19:23:48
374.   Bluebleeder87

that's my favorite picture from the DT gathering.

2008-12-23 19:25:18
375.   Bob Timmermann
I've been to one MLS match and DC United was playing the Galaxy at the Rose Bowl. And I've seen the Nats play at Dodger Stadium. But I've never seen the Bullets/Wizards or the NFL team.
2008-12-23 19:31:28
376.   D4P
I guess it was a good idea I didn't open a Poinsettia Bowl open thread on the Griddle.

Although that looks like a corker!

Break open the Hungry Man...!

2008-12-23 19:32:01
377.   Eric Stephen
They also are allowed to sign a Type A free agent to replace any Type A's lost. Abreu qualifies as Type A, which would allow another Type A to be signed.
2008-12-23 19:32:58
378.   berkowit28
373 I've read that because the Yankees themselves lost one Type A (Mussina, maybe?) they can still add one more.
2008-12-23 19:33:01
379.   Bluebleeder87

Broxton will be good only if:

1) he learns how to set up batters
2) if his slider/curve is more consistent
3) starts pitching instead of throwing as hard as he can.


I know Jon likes him as our stopper but I just don't have faith in him, I hope he proves me wrong though.

2008-12-23 19:35:27
380.   Bluebleeder87
I hope we get a type A draft compensation (is that what you call it) for losing both D-Lowe & Manny...
2008-12-23 19:36:43
381.   Eric Stephen
We won't lose Manny. :)
2008-12-23 19:37:02
382.   eusmus
377 Does it matter that they didn't offer him arbitration?
2008-12-23 19:38:51
383.   Bob Timmermann
Boise State is leading TCU 13-10 in the fourth quarter.

Little known fact: Ian Johnson promised his wife that he would divorce her if Boise State lost last night. An attorney is standing by on the sidelines to serve her with papers if need be.

2008-12-23 19:39:26
384.   Rolex
That's only if the amount of type's A lost is greater than 3, which is not the case.
2008-12-23 19:42:26
385.   trainwreck
Wow, Wyoming can score.
2008-12-23 19:42:45
386.   Sam DC
Here is what the CBA says on this:

(a) Clubs shall be limited in the number of Type A and B Players, as defined below, they may subsequently sign to contracts. The number of signings permitted shall be elated to the number of Players electing free agency under this Section B. . . . If there are from 39 to 62 such Players, no Club may sign more than three Type A or B Players. . . .

(b) Irrespective of the provisions of subparagraph (a) above, a Club shall be eligible to sign at least as many Type A and B Players as it may have lost through Players having become free agents.

Which seems consistent with what Rolex is saying.

2008-12-23 19:43:39
387.   Bob Timmermann

(5) Quota
(a) Clubs shall be limited in the number of Type A and B Players,
as defined below, they may subsequently sign to contracts. The
number of signings permitted shall be related to the number of Players
electing free agency under this Section B. If there are 14 or less
such Players, no Club may sign more than one Type A or B Player.
If there are from 15 to 38 such Players, no Club may sign more than
two Type A or B Players. If there are from 39 to 62 such Players, no
Club may sign more than three Type A or B Players. If there are
more than 62 such Players, the Club quotas shall be increased
accordingly. There shall be no restrictions on the number of
unranked Players that a Club may sign to contracts.
(b) Irrespective of the provisions of subparagraph (a) above, a
Club shall be eligible to sign at least as many Type A and B Players
as it may have lost through Players having become free agents under
this Section at the close of the season just concluded.

2008-12-23 19:44:32
388.   Eric Stephen
Nope. Per the CBA: "a Club shall be eligible to sign at least as many Type A and B Players as it may have lost through Players having become free agents under this Section at the close of the season just concluded"

In fact, the Yankees may not even be close to the limit of Type A or B's they can sign.

Per the CBA:
14 or fewer free agents = no club can sign more than 1 Type A or B
15-38 FA = limit of 2
39-62 FA = limit of 3

Then, the vague "if there are more than 62 such Players, the Club quotas shall be increased accordingly."

There are something like 110 or so free agents, so the quota is probably up to at least 5 Type A or B free agents.

This situation hasn't really come up before, but the Yankees can probably still sign more Type A & B players.

2008-12-23 19:45:50
389.   trainwreck
Does anyone have a quote from the CBA on this?
2008-12-23 19:46:28
390.   Bob Timmermann
There were 171 free agents BEFORE more were added after some players weren't tendered contracts (like Saito).
2008-12-23 19:50:56
391.   Rolex
It's not the total amount of Free Agents, rather the total amount of Type A/b Free Agents, so the number should be under 62.
2008-12-23 19:51:42
392.   natepurcell
Would Many even want to go to Washington or Baltimore? It seems like its LA or Japan...
2008-12-23 19:53:28
393.   Bob Timmermann
In a CBA war, there are no winners. Just survivors.
2008-12-23 19:54:20
394.   Eric Stephen
In addition to the quota for each team based on total free agents (which is at least 3, and probably 6 or more) the Yankees can sign any of the same type players to replace the following, if lost:

Type A

Type B
Pudge II

2008-12-23 19:57:33
395.   Eric Stephen
That is not true.

The number of signings permitted shall be related to the number of Players electing free agency under this Section B

Section B outlines free agency for all players with 6 or more years of MLB service time with no contract for the upcoming season, provided they file for free agency in the 15-day period just after the World Series.

2008-12-23 19:59:44
396.   Eric Stephen
Actually, I'm not sure if Mussina declared free agency or not since he retired. If he did not declare FA, the Yankees would not get an extra Type A for him.
2008-12-23 20:05:07
397.   Rolex
If there are 14 or fewer Type A or Type B free agents available, no team can sign more than one type A or B player. If there are between 15-38, no team can sign more than two. If there are between 39 and 62, there's a limit of three. However, teams can sign as many Type A or B free agents as they've lost, regardless of the limits above.

2008-12-23 20:06:36
398.   Indiana Jon
Eric, I was able to find a few of the 1977 cards you need here at the house. The ones I definitely have are Clark, Rose, Robinson, NLCS, Perry, and Bench. I still think I will find more at mom's when I search through my "commons", but I may not find them all.
2008-12-23 20:09:45
399.   Eric Stephen
I think my 395 came on too strong. I was quoting directly from the CBA, whereas your link quotes from an interpretation of the CBA.

Intuitively, I think you are correct. But there is enough vagueness in the language that it could go either way. I would like to know a definitive answer to this; maybe it will come out in the next few weeks should the Yankees try to sign another Type A! :)

2008-12-23 20:13:39
400.   Rolex
True that, hopefully we can get a clear consensus on the CBA.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2008-12-23 20:14:23
401.   trainwreck
Jerry Buss at UCLA game.
2008-12-23 20:17:49
402.   Dodgers49
Yankees Edge Out Nats for Teixeira

>> For the first time in franchise history, the Nationals had taken full pursuit of an A-list free agent -- the kind of player the Yankees usually get. The Boston Red Sox were in the race for Mark Teixeira, then out, then back in. The Los Angeles Angels were in, then called it off. But the Nationals were all-in all along.

And still, the Yankees won a race that few even saw them running. <<

## At the winter meetings, the team said it was not interested in outfielder Manny Ramírez, another Scott Boras client. ##

2008-12-23 20:21:50
403.   Eric Stephen
You are the man. Let me know what you want in trade, as long as it's not Notre Dame related. :)

Shoot me an email. eric d stephen (all together) at gmail dot com.

2008-12-23 20:23:19
404.   trainwreck
Mike Roll needs to be starting over Josh Shipp.
2008-12-23 20:23:51
405.   trainwreck
I like how you wrote it out.
2008-12-23 20:24:33
406.   Sam DC
I was watching the scores roll by and started typing up an email giving a G-Town buddy of my some grief for the utter creampuffs that JT III schedules every year before the Big East starts.

Then it crawled by that the UCLA was playing Wyoming . . .

2008-12-23 20:27:34
407.   Sam DC
368 Let the record reflect that, in fact, the Capitals scored one goal in the second period and were down 4-1 at the start of the third, not 4-0.
2008-12-23 20:28:43
408.   Indiana Jon
403 Pulling out those old cards, I was reminded that the NLCS card was one of my all time favorites. Have you seen it? That's the way I will always choose to remember Pete Rose, not as a tax evading gambler.
2008-12-23 20:32:05
409.   Indiana Jon
403 Give me the weekend to see how many others I can get together and then I'll shoot you a final e-mail and get an address. As far as a trade, I really don't know. I haven't collected cards in years. The one card I always wanted, but never got, was a 1971 Garvey. Don't have an extra one of those laying around do you?
2008-12-23 20:34:05
410.   JRSarno
Looks like Manny should return to L.A. And there appears to be no reason for the Dodgers to increase their offer.... But I can't see him being happy. I think we all know what that means... (Manny not catching fly balls intentionally?)
2008-12-23 20:35:16
411.   Samhain
Dr. Jerry Buss grew up in the state of Wyoming and, in fact, graduated from the University of Wyoming (the Bruins' opponent tonight...)
2008-12-23 20:37:55
412.   Eric Stephen
I don't have an extra 1971, but I believe I have an extra 1973 (the one with more of Wes Parker in the photo; just an awful photo choice!). I think I have a few extra Garveys from the 1970s.
2008-12-23 20:45:03
413.   Indiana Jon
412 I think I have them all except for the 71. I tell you what, just consider these a Christmas gift. All the folks here, including you, have answered my questions, looked up stats for me, and just generally increased my knowledge of baseball. That's all I need in trade.
2008-12-23 20:49:24
414.   Disabled List
A moment ago on ESPN, Steve Phillips said that now that the Yankees have Teixeira, the Dodgers' only real competition for Manny is the Nationals. Now, anyone can be outbid for a player by the Yankees. But if we lose Manny to the freakin' Nats...

Adding, I'm not convinced the Yankees are out of the Manny bidding. From best I can tell from the CBA quoting above, it seems like the Steinbrenners might still be willing and able to go after Ramirez. There is no recession is their universe.

Also adding, I love the fact that three different people quoted the relevant part of the CBA inside a two-minute window. You guys are my kind of people.

2008-12-23 21:06:28
415.   wkk
Happy Hollidays Jon and all. Looong time lurker (since pre DePo). I've got to tell you, back in the day, I used to read Jim Murray + Dodger news with breakfast. Now it's reading Dodger Thoughts on my laptop. You've replaced Jim Murray for me! Warmest wishes for 2009.
2008-12-23 21:41:37
416.   bhsportsguy
415 Wow, Jon might blush with that comparison.
2008-12-23 22:05:47
417.   delias man
eric, do you get your cards graded?
2008-12-23 22:13:28
418.   Eric Stephen
Heck no. I just collect cards I want; not really to re-sell (although I have sold many of the insert-type cards -- I mainly like only sets, and Dodgers -- on eBay).

It doesn't bother me if an older card is in bad shape. You can get great deals on blemished cards.

2008-12-23 22:35:28
419.   Marty
418 You guys make me want to bust out my stamp collection and see if I can start that up again.
2008-12-23 22:45:13
420.   Eric Stephen
Stamps are for nerds. Baseball cards are totally cool. ;)
2008-12-23 22:47:04
421.   bhsportsguy
419 So what time should I come over, I'm still baking cookies.
2008-12-23 22:50:41
422.   Eric Stephen
What kind? Some Christmas shapes? Sugar cookies with frosting, or more standard chocolate chip or oatmeal or peanut butter?
2008-12-23 22:54:45
423.   brookster1967
414 Well, if we lose Manny to the Nats, that would really show his true colors. It would be obvious to me that he isn't interested in another WS ring in the final days of his career.

I think it is obvious we are the front runners for his services - unless someone like the Mets dig up some funds to sign him. And given the owners's losses in the Madoff Ponzi scheme, that doesn't seem likely.

2008-12-23 22:56:50
424.   delias man
418- I can respect that.
2008-12-23 23:56:01
425.   KG16
i think i still have a ton of complete sets 87-95 or so, hidden in my parents garage; along with a bunch of different random cards around. Orel rookie card, McGwire Olympic, bunch of rookie cards, actually. that is probably one thing the strike did kill, my collecting. well, the strike and puberty.
2008-12-24 00:53:24
426.   LoneStar7
362 thank god, I wish Terry would just come out and admit that Lacrapla stinks, he's just not a #1 goalie

its such a shame that the SJ,NY, and Detroit games very very winnable as we we proved we can skate with the best of 'em, only to be let down by our netminding..

2008-12-24 01:01:21
427.   dzzrtRatt
415 Day-to-day, Dodger Thoughts, the whole package, Jon + commenters, are as good as, really better, than Jim Murray. Style and so much more.

Even better would be Dodger Thought with Jim Murray still around to talk about.

2008-12-24 01:07:37
428.   dzzrtRatt

The Star-Ledger says Manny will come "crawling back" to the Dodgers.

2008-12-24 01:14:38
429.   kngoworld
I think the later it gets in the offseason the more insterest Manny will receive from "desperate" teams who are trying to keep pace with other teams. At that point these other teams might be able to look past his attitude issues.
2008-12-24 02:44:27
430.   Dodgers49
T.J. Simers chimes in:

Manny Ramirez is being handed to them, but will Dodgers take him?

2008-12-24 03:12:03
431.   Bluebleeder87
429 I hope one of those teams is the Dodgers, for 2 years only though.
2008-12-24 03:58:22
432.   Bumsrap
I am good with a one year Manny contract for $27MM and a 2 year for $50MM if Boras finds a way to sway the Yankees to take Jones and his entire contract. In other words, I want Manny for one year.
2008-12-24 04:00:51
433.   Bumsrap
My first choice would be Furcal in CF and Hu at short, Kemp and Ethier in the corners. Manny being Manny somewhere else.
2008-12-24 05:34:04
434.   DodgerBakers
Hi, I'm also a very infrequent poster, but do read nearly daily. Just moved from Tucson to Omaha so am still trying to catch up on what's going on in baseball.
2008-12-24 06:16:53
435.   Jon Weisman
Hi everyone. New post up top.

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