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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
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4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Are Gray Skies Gonna Clear Up?
2008-12-30 21:40
by Jon Weisman

UntitledYou'll see below a post about sadness. At the same time, I've been thinking off and on this week about happiness and Manny Ramirez. All this worry that he won't be happy if he doesn't get the deal we think he was expecting. The worry's legitimate, or rather the uncertainty is.

But if Ramirez were to sign with the Dodgers, for a contract well under the cumulative $100 million-plus he might have been led to believe he would get, are we so sure he'll be so triste? Doesn't it make sense that Ramirez would be more complicated than that? I can think of a hundred things that could make him happy while settling for $75 million or so guaranteed, from Angel Berroa as an overpaid sidekick, to proximity to some tasty restaurants, to the right therapist, to the scent of flowers in bloom, to ... you name it. As Mr. Cannon has indicated, Manny's legs might be a bigger worry than his head.

I don't know, folks. Maybe Ramirez's one-and-only motivation is the perfect contract. On the other hand, maybe that's Scott Boras' one-and-only motivation, and Ramirez is just looking for a combination of things, of which money is only one part, and a soft place to land is another. I don't think it's completely naive of me to declare case not closed.

Anyway, Bill Shaikin of the Times talked to Boras today, and learned that the communication lines are back open with the Dodgers. Ramirez is the team's first choice for left field, and one assumes the feeling might just be mutual, megacontract or megamegacontract. Happiness is relative, and money can't buy you love.

Comments (273)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-12-30 21:54:34
1.   Eric Stephen
The Blazers scored a field goal tonight with six men on the court, and the basket was allowed because it wasn't caught by the officials.

Portland sent the Celtics to their 3rd loss in 4 games. Yay!

2008-12-30 22:02:20
2.   Daniel Zappala
LAT'd: When is the last time a 10-0 Pac-10 team with a history of a strong basketball program failed to crack the Top 25?
2008-12-30 22:02:56
3.   Tripon
1 Are the Celtics chokers like the Lakers were when they lost two in a row earlier in the month?
2008-12-30 22:02:57
4.   Tripon
1 Are the Celtics chokers like the Lakers were when they lost two in a row earlier in the month?
2008-12-30 22:03:07
5.   Daniel Zappala
Oh, and again, Jon, fantastic thoughts here. Yes, I can believe that Manny will be happy in LA while Boras stews in his office.
2008-12-30 22:04:56
6.   trainwreck
Stanford needs to play someone that is decent.
2008-12-30 22:05:35
7.   Daniel Zappala
BYU beat Tulsa on the road, breaking Tulsa's string of 28 consecutive home non-conference victories. 11-1, and the best part is they have a player named Jimmer.
2008-12-30 22:11:10
8.   LogikReader

Saw the box score on!! HUZZAH!!! Cherish the day!!!

This should put an end to the "Are the Celtics on pace to win 70 games" talk. DOUBLE Huzzah!!

2008-12-30 22:14:29
9.   silverwidow
"When Lincecum was available with the 10th overall pick in the 2006 draft, the Giants felt like they had just won the lottery. A month earlier, they figured there was no chance Lincecum would last beyond the third or fourth pick. But while his size and unorthodox delivery scared off some organizations, San Francisco saw him as a once-in-a-decade talent who was ready to dominate major league hitters straight out of college." - 2007 Baseball America Prospect Handbook
2008-12-30 22:16:01
10.   Eric Stephen
I took great pleasure in listening to the Bill Simmons 12/23 podcast about 5 days late, as I was driving home Sunday. It was much easier to listen to an hour of talk about how the Celtics were locks to beat the Bulls' 72-10 record since they had just lost two straight!
2008-12-30 22:26:00
11.   Tripon

Willie Taveras deal with the reds is 2 years, 6.25 million.

2008-12-30 22:30:31
12.   kinbote
The Oregon Ducks are my anti-Dodgers. I derive only happiness from them and feel no sadness when they lose.
2008-12-30 22:32:49
13.   Tripon
9 The 06 draft for pitchers was just stacked. 9 of the first 12 picks were pitchers, and 8 of them are already in the majors.

2008-12-30 22:39:51
14.   Dodgers49
Ken Gurnick also has an article up on Manny but it contains nothing that we were not already aware of after reading the article in the L.A.Times:

Manny's agent contacts Dodgers

2008-12-30 22:45:07
15.   dzzrtRatt
Manny likes it in LA. Contending team, big market, lots of media and yet a respectful anonymity. Joe Torre. Spanish spoken everywhere you go. Warm sunshine, even in April, even in October. Yeah, as long as the contract respects his talent, he'll be back.
2008-12-30 22:45:12
16.   underdog
Couldn't have said it better than your next to last paragraph up there, Jon.

Let's see if they can work something out that makes Manny at least... content. And rich.

I'm not rich, but I am content, content enough to not feel too terribly depressed about turning (gulp) 40 on Thursday. (Even typing that is painful.) If I should survive, thankyoucomeagain. Celebratin' begins tomorrow night. Have a great New Year's Eve and Day, all.

2008-12-30 22:45:24
17.   JRSarno
Great, Colletti and Boras are talking again. This feels like a sad mating ritual, with Manny as some MILFy prostitute. Now Colletti and McCourt have to ask themselves if the sex was good enough to pay for another hop in the Ravine.
2008-12-30 22:46:12
18.   LogikReader

Imagine, a fan of the hated Celtics living in the midst of Lakers country and then podcasting about Boston teams. I'm going to move to Boston and start my own podcast.

Ah, yes, I'm half-way there: I have the podcast part started (over on LOCKS of the Week) :)

[new episodes resume Jan 5th...]

2008-12-30 22:50:07
19.   kinbote
16 Early Happy Birthday, u-dog.
2008-12-30 22:54:40
20.   Andrew Shimmin
They have a zip code lookup thingy, now.

2008-12-30 23:03:54
21.   underdog
Thanks Kin!

Man, I just read your pets story, Jon. Posted my condolences there. Thanks for sharing.

2008-12-30 23:07:48
22.   LogikReader

Likewise u-dog. Happy Birthday buddy. I hope the Colts can pull out a victory for your birthday!

2008-12-30 23:09:21
23.   The Dude Abides
I know Ned could get criticized for bidding against himself if he offers Manny a third year, but I'm sure many would also agree that a (relatively) happy Manny would be an effective Manny. The deal could be structured as something like $24m for 2009, $22m for 2010, and $20m for 2011. That way, Manny gets more for 2009 and 2010 than what he would have earned if Boston had picked up his two options, plus he gets $20m for his third year. He has been keeping in remarkable shape for the past two years, and that third year is a pretty good risk for the Dodgers to take.
2008-12-30 23:12:12
24.   qazplm
My apologies if someone posted this already, but supposedly Mets offer Lowe 3 year deal.

2008-12-30 23:13:24
25.   DougS
I think Jon is spot-on: Based on what we saw of Manny last season and what we know about him from before, I think that money as such is just one of a variety of things that motivates him. I think a sense of being appreciated and having fun as part of the team are both big priorities for him. For Scott Boras, however, it is all about the money and nothing else. The question is, who is driving the truck, Manny or Boras?
2008-12-30 23:20:41
26.   whodat807
10 I've always found him a little irritating despite his ability to draw out a laugh or two. His incessant homerism + that grating voice + the Celtics finally made me permanently remove his show from my iPod pull list, but I'd like to hear him attempt to pump up the C's after this brutal Western road trip they've had.

...still like his mailbags, however.

2008-12-30 23:22:01
27.   68elcamino427
Great post Jon.

Manny Ramirez

Mr. Ultimo

2008-12-30 23:22:13
28.   Eric Stephen
I will cut Simmons a little bit of slack, given that it's hard to live amongst rival fans, having to hear the local slant on everything that really isn't too bad but can be grating through a different lens.
2008-12-30 23:24:16
29.   Eric Stephen
Woo hoo! MLB Network will be on channel 489 for me (Time Warner). Although my guide still doesn't show the channel yet.
2008-12-30 23:31:58
30.   Jacob Burch
29 Ditto. Hopefully they had MLBHD by the time games start.
2008-12-30 23:37:16
31.   berkowit28
20 But it's wrong, in some places. It tells me that MLB network in Santa Barbara will be on channel 128 on Cox Cable. That would make it "extended basic", which is what they're advertising is available on every participating cable partner. (And, if I'm not mistaken, the subject of a long-running dispute with the cable companies. Or maybe that was NFL TV?)

But it's not. It's listed already on Cox on channel 282 - part of a Sports "tier" (which costs only $1 on top of a big package but rather more on its own on top of extended basic). I'll be interested to see if it turns up instead on 128 - I doubt it - sounds like a lost cause they were fighting.

It also doesn't tell me that the HD version is on channel 770.

2008-12-30 23:46:11
32.   immouch
i love what manny did last year. and i love manny's weirdness and hair and, well, the whole shebang. that said, manny money could get us dunn and a pitcher. manny - cranky or not - is gonna be great. but manny - whether he's playing spectacularly great or merely way above average - isn't gonna be worth the contract he's been offered. conversely, dunn plus a pitcher could be.
2008-12-31 00:02:58
33.   dzzrtRatt
23 Boy I wish someone would come up with an idea like that to motivate me someday.

But I agree with you. And I can't imagine Dunn and an available pitcher having the same impact. Plus, I don't think the front office does a deal with Manny unless they already have budgeted enough money left over to pay for an Andy Pettitte type.

2008-12-31 00:11:04
34.   delias man
Does anybody think there will be any pressure from above to get ned to sign manny before the jan 7 season ticket renewal date?
2008-12-31 00:39:48
35.   trainwreck
We need to get Manny and then we are fine.

I think with Manny in the lineup we would be fine with the rotation of Billingsley, Kershaw, Kuroda, McDonald, and Stults.

Taking a risk on John Smoltz would be worth it in my eyes. Or we could sign Sheets and be the favorites from the NL and have a solid chance to win the World Series.

Whatever feels good for you, Ned.

2008-12-31 04:44:01
36.   D4P
Oregon was ridiculously good at running the football this year.
2008-12-31 05:25:59
37.   fordprefect
Yippee! I'm in!
Wait a minute....
Why is the ch# reading "channel not available"?
2008-12-31 06:49:34
38.   Ken Noe
If Boras can't get the years, isn't it likely that he tries to max out the annual money beyond CC--$24 million for each of three years? (Because I think he's a lock to get three after Blake and Furcal got the extra year). It's all about saving face for Boras at this point.
2008-12-31 06:55:13
39.   D4P
The Dodgers appear to have little to no competition for Manny's services. I hope they stick to their 2-year offer. Saving Boras's face should be the last thing on the Dodgers's collective mind.
2008-12-31 07:11:13
40.   D4P
Put another way, teams's faces are the last thing on Boras's mind. He only cares about their wallets.
2008-12-31 07:26:46
41.   madmac
36 yes they were. At times though it seemed they could have done even more. For instance, last night in the first half, I didn't think they pushed the issue enough. Oregon really should have spanked OSU. Thankfully they got their stuff together for the 2nd half.
2008-12-31 07:30:01
42.   Daniel Zappala
The Dodgers signed Claudio Vargas. Who? Why?

2008-12-31 07:36:05
43.   Gen3Blue
42 What? Who? Why? indeed.

At least thats the right kind of contract. It looks like the guy is no worse than most fifth starters.

2008-12-31 07:37:00
44.   old dodger fan
42 Maybe for Chan Ho's middle innings?
2008-12-31 07:44:12
45.   Daniel Zappala
He seems more like someone you would give a spring training invitation to, or perhaps stash at AAA in case of an emergency.
2008-12-31 07:58:51
46.   Jim Hitchcock
Happy birthday, underdog...let's go camping!
2008-12-31 08:09:56
47.   Bluebleeder87
A new year is with in a stones throw away... Happy new year everbody. [cyber hug included]
2008-12-31 08:13:01
48.   eekrock
0 - and for all these years i thought it was a warm gun that brought happiness.

from a loving dog owner, i'm sorry to hear of your family's loss, Jon.

2008-12-31 08:17:14
49.   Josh Wilker
Nice post, Jon, and sorry to hear about your loss.

My two cents as a Red Sox fan on Manny is that happiness for him is fleeting: It comes and goes and comes again. I think the Dodgers are the best place for him, the place where he'd be happiest, but he'll eventually start grumbling about something no matter what. The trick is to ignore it and just focus on the RBIs and playoff appearances piling up.

Anyway, Happy New Year, Dodger Thinkers.

2008-12-31 08:21:34
50.   Josh Wilker
Also, can anyone here tell me which Brad Penny is the real Brad Penny--the 2007 version or the 2008 version? Looks like the Bosox are getting him.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-12-31 08:22:16
51.   Jim Hitchcock
Okay, boys...avoid DUI's tonight, but for those who don't, here's a little ditty just for you:

I was pulled over by Smokey, now I'm headed toward the pokey,

Hell, yeah, ain't life grand.

I had to much to drink, and now I'm sitting in the klink,

Hell, yeah, ain't life grand.

I had me a Black Cow, now I'm stuck in the hoosegow,

Hell, yeah, ain't life grand.

I had one more gin and tonic, now my bracelet's electronic,

Hell, yeah, ain't life grand.


If someone could add a verse about rum, I think this could function as a sea shanty, also.

2008-12-31 08:23:11
52.   Jim Hitchcock
I really have way too much time on my hands today...
2008-12-31 08:27:27
53.   fiddlestick
Difference in 07 vs 08 Penny isn't so much "real" vs. "fake", it's healthy arm vs. hurt arm.
2008-12-31 08:33:39
54.   ToyCannon
Many shades of Brad Penny. Starting All-Star pitcher in 2006 to the worse starting pitcher in baseball in 2006. Great first half 2007 fueled by unsustainable home run suppression given his fly ball rate, followed by average 2nd half 2007. In 2008 he was just terrible.

Brad Penny in Boston does not feel like a good fit. I expect they will get what they got from Miller and Colon when they tried to rehab those shoulders and got little for it.

2008-12-31 08:47:53
55.   Josh Wilker
54 : Makes sense. I guess like Miller and Colon it's pretty much a low-risk, low-reward kind of thing.

Even so, I always buy into these types of acquisitions and start thinking maybe, just maybe the guy will really turn it around.

The king of all these kinds of acquisitions for the Red Sox was when they brought in an aging Mark Fidrych in the mid-80s to see if he had anything left (he pitched briefly in their minor league system before calling it quits for good).

2008-12-31 08:59:46
56.   delias man
A move to the AL is surely not going to help Penny. I wonder if he had any other serious offers.
2008-12-31 09:05:15
57.   ToyCannon
Buchholz is still quite a prospect, not to mention Masterson. If we had signed someone like Penny to block someone like Buchholz or Masterson I'd think we'd be plenty upset.

I hope he enjoys running his hand through his hair while watching Longoria and Arod launch his fastballs over the Monster.

2008-12-31 09:14:51
58.   Josh Wilker
57 : Well, lately in Boston if the kids can play, they play, so I'm not worried about anybody blocking anybody.
2008-12-31 09:32:58
59.   LogikReader

Hear, hear. The Red Sox are now suddenly thinking they can turn any guy into a productive player. Having not learned the lesson of Lugo, now we see them pick up another Dodger re-tread.

Although knowing our luck, Penny will win the 2009 AL "Comeback Player of the Year".

2008-12-31 09:33:09
60.   Samhain
Chugged a measure of spiced rum, now me nose and mouth is feeling numb,
Hell, yeah, ain't life grand.

(Arrrrgh me hearties. A pirate's life for me!)

2008-12-31 09:35:37
61.   Dodger Jack
A Manny signing may be close. Then we turn our attention to ridding ourselves of outfield detritus. Many posters here would throw Pierre overboard first. But let's start by jettisoning the heaviest load: Andruw Jones. His performance last year was arguably the worst in the history of the franchise; it was certainly the worst for the money. My hunch is that he will have as bad a year in 09, and possibly worse. The guy probably has a year left before he is waived and out of the game. I would take in a heartbeat Castillo's contract from the Mets in exchange.
2008-12-31 09:39:51
62.   D4P
A Manny signing may be close

I just hope Ned realizes (or at least, believes) that Manny hasn't gotten any offers better than the Dodgers's initial 2/45 offer, and that it is therefore not necessarily necessary to improve upon it. Manny's not gonna sit out the entire season if he doesn't get a better offer than that.

2008-12-31 09:40:23
63.   natepurcell

Castillo is deadbeat for 3 years...Jones only for one more.

2008-12-31 09:42:16
64.   mwhite06
61 Why would you take Castillo's contract in exchange? Castillo still has 3 years left on his deal. With the Dodgers signing Furcal they currently have 3 players who can competently play 2nd base (Hu, Dewitt, Dejusus) who are cost controlled. BTW, Dewitt had a better year offensively than Castillo did last year, and he's 22.

Why not let Andruw sit on the bench smiling every game or simply DFA him?

2008-12-31 09:49:52
65.   Jim Hitchcock
60 Hey, that works! :)
2008-12-31 09:52:37
66.   Mike Scioscias tragic illness
63 64

Jones for Castillo would be fine for two reasons...

1) Jones is COMPLETELY worthless. Castillo is only MOSTLY useless. He did still have a .350+ OBP last year, and would at least provide another safety net for DeWitt. Don't get me wrong, I don't really want him, but he's preferable to Jones.

2) re: Castillo having 3 more years on his deal. This is true, but I'd rather have his deal ($6m/year for 3 years) than Jones' monster 2009 salary, because at least it provides you with much better payroll flexibility.

2008-12-31 09:56:45
67.   Landonkk
62 At some point Manny's asking price will hit a point that more than a few teams will show interest. The question is where is that point, and should Ned wait for it or wrap the deal up now while there is no competition. We offered 2/45mm and should offer the same thing again. Unless other teams are lying about having interest or some team like the Nats come along with a ridiculous offer, Boras would be dumb not to take it.
2008-12-31 10:06:11
68.   Ken Noe
56 Olney claims the Snakes made a run at him.
2008-12-31 10:07:19
69.   OhioBlues12
66 - I too am a fan of DeWitt's and think that he will be a good 2B, but Castillo really had a down year in 08. If he rebounds in 09 and brings his average back up to career norms then he is easily tradeable next offseason. I don't think we are going to see Castillo though as Torre is a big supporter of DeWitt's.
2008-12-31 10:08:06
70.   Ken Noe
62 I hope you're right, but so far this winter Ned has caved twice on an extra year. Plus we don't know how much he wants Boras's help to move Jones.
2008-12-31 10:11:17
71.   regfairfield
If Manny's best offer really is 2/45, I'm sure much more teams will lineup when Boras starts considering 2/50 or 3/60 "legitimate offers". No one really wants to give him the 5/100 or whatever he wanted, but I'm sure some teams would be more than happy to slightly outbid the Dodgers.
2008-12-31 10:12:47
72.   D4P
I don't think an NL team should give Manny more than 2 years, which in and of itself is already pushing it.
2008-12-31 10:13:15
73.   Tripon

Angels signed Brian Futenes, two years plus an option.

2008-12-31 10:13:48
74.   ChicagoDodger
66 Exactly the point I was thinking when the Jones for Castillo rumor first surfaced. I thought it would be a no-brainer for the Dodgers if in fact it were a straight swap.

Forget the players involved. Would you rather pay $22.1 million in 2009, or $18 million spread out over the next 3 years?

That is why it would be nice to know why the talks broke down at the winter meetings. If it was a straight swap and nothing else, I can't imagine the Dodgers not jumping on that offer.

My guess is it involved the Dodgers paying some of Jones salary and perhaps even adding some prospects. Because if not, it would be a great move for the Dodgers. One I hope is revisted if in fact they do end up with Manny.

What am I talking about? One I hope is revisited even if they don't end up with Manny.

2008-12-31 10:25:26
75.   underdog
Maybe I'm in the minority but I'd rather eat Jones contract (before he eats you! buahahaha! sorry) for one year than Castillo's 18 million over 3 years. Why? Because Jones would be worthless for a year and Castillo for three. Castillo no longer fills a need, with Loretta + DeWitt + Abreu etc. Because there's a chance Jones could at least be decent for one year, though unlikely. And then at least they're done with it after 2009. I'd rather not have anything to do with 3 years of Castillo. imho. Trade Jones for a minor leaguer of some decent value and eat 19-20 mil of his contract.
2008-12-31 10:25:41
76.   GoBears
I can't imagine anyone taking Andruw Jones and his contract (or even most of it). I think the only two options are to keep him and hope he rebounds or simply cut him. Or pay his whole salary so that some other team can have that choice at lower risk.

If folks around here are right that the team was giving away prospects to avoid spending a couple million dollars last year, then I can't imagine McCourt being willing to pay most or all of Jones's salary and cut/trade him. Most likely, he'll stay with the team, get more starts than he deserves, and otherwise rot on the bench.

2008-12-31 10:29:44
77.   Tripon

Mark DeRosa to the Indians for 3 minor league pitchers.

2008-12-31 10:30:10
78.   Humma Kavula
71 I agree with that, and for that reason, I don't see it as "caving" if Ned does decide to give Manny the third year now, before there's another three-year offer on the table.

Besides, there is value in just getting the deal done. It's hard to put a dollar figure on it.

Imagine you need a place to live and want to spend $X/mo. You can't find anything good at that price, but prices are coming down and you think if you hold out you might be able to get something... or you can just say, y'know, you'll be OK paying $Y/mo. and taking this apartment that you like quite a bit and your search is over. Is that caving?

2008-12-31 10:35:20
79.   bhsportsguy
73 Angels still have the Yankees and Mets first round picks plus 2 supplemental picks.
2008-12-31 10:38:25
80.   GoBears
78. Depends on how highly you value your time. I fired my gardener a couple years ago because I realized that I could do the job just as well as he could, and that I didn't really have a better use for the time it would take each week. My friend chose to keep the guy because while my friend could do the job too, his time is worth more than mine.

Actually, that's pretty much how I decide on all home improvement projects. For most, I COULD do the job, but in much more time than it would take a professional to do it. Sometimes it's worth it to pay the pro. My water heater blew up last month. It's an easy job to replace one, but it happened the day I was leaving town for 10 days, with non-refundable tickets. So I paid a plumber a ridiculous amount of money to do in 3 hours what I didn't have 6 hours to do myself.

2008-12-31 10:42:33
81.   Humma Kavula
80 That's definitely true. Maybe my analogy is poor. I hired a housekeeper when I felt that my time was worth more than the cost of having somebody clean my toilet. I fired the housekeeper when I decided that (a) the company was expensive and (b) did a poor job of cleaning my toilet.

If Manny Ramirez doesn't find a baseball contract to his liking and would like to clean my toilet, I will pay him one hundred dollars every two weeks.

2008-12-31 10:43:03
82.   ChicagoDodger
75 Maybe I'm in the minority but I'd rather eat Jones contract for one year than Castillo's 18 million over 3 years. Why? Because Jones would be worthless for a year and Castillo for three.

Huh? You do realize they could make the trade and then release Castillo like 5 minutes later right? Or is there some baseball rule that prevents that? If so, then put him on the 60-day DL.

The point being, both Jones "and" Castillo can be worthless for 1 year (or even 0 years for that matter), the only difference being spreading the payments out over 3 years instead of 1 year. And if paying $18 million over 3 years is worse then paying $22.1 million over 1 year, I'll take it every time.

2008-12-31 10:46:51
83.   regfairfield
Which is why I don't think the Mets would do that. They wouldn't take on salary and take Jones just to get rid of Castillo.

I could see Jones for Castillo if we paid both their salaries, but that's about it.

2008-12-31 10:49:30
84.   bhsportsguy
82 I believe the Mets would want the Dodgers to pay some of Junes salary for this year.
2008-12-31 10:49:42
85.   Jon Weisman
I'm contracting with GoBears for all my household needs from now on. Except for the painting that Daniel's brother's going to do.
2008-12-31 10:50:33
86.   Bob Hendley
51 - A little South of the Border flavor.

I had one more drink of tequilita, and now I have a cellmate who calls me his lindita.

Hell, yeah, ain't life grand.

2008-12-31 10:50:39
87.   bhsportsguy
83 Which is why in baseball you don't see these salary swap deals too often whereas in the NBA, with the cap, it happens much more frequently.
2008-12-31 10:52:15
88.   scareduck
29 - I'm presently stuck in DFW as our flight was delayed by fog at John Wayne. I'll check on that to see when I get in.

The Time-Warner cable lineup for our area doesn't show it yet.

2008-12-31 10:55:36
89.   ChicagoDodger
83 , 84 That's what I wrote in 74 above (paying some of Jones salary), but they would never pay both Jones "and" Castillo salary.

I mean, trade Jones to the Mets and pay all the $22.1 million, "and" get a player you have no use for other then to release him and pay his salary too?

Why would any team do that? They could just release Jones. They wouldn't need to pay an additional $18 million for the right to release Jones. Would they?

2008-12-31 10:56:15
90.   bhsportsguy
Buster Olney's thoughts on the Manny situation are similar to those of D4P's, the Dodgers have all the leverage and they could use it to move down their original offer especially with all the corner outfielders still available.

However, Olney asks the question, should the Dodgers use their leverage with Boras and Manny. He views this as a very touchy situation and believes ultimately, the Dodgers can sign Manny for 3 years/66M.

2008-12-31 10:58:31
91.   bhsportsguy
88 Time Warner has a much bigger issue to deal with right now.

2008-12-31 11:01:56
92.   D4P
Manny's value, according to Fangraphs:

2002: $16.9 million
2003: 17.5
2004: 15.9
2005: 10.9
2006: 14.3
2007: 5.1
2008: 29.2

In other words, his defense takes a big toll, and he's likely to get paid more than his offense and defense are worth.

Course, this ignores his worth in terms of fan revenue and such.

2008-12-31 11:06:48
93.   Jacob Burch
I know others have said this, but when it comes to Manny, I really find myself suppressing the SABR-Fangraph-Value-VORP-blah side of my brain, which I use so often, and just turning into an 12 year old fan wishing they hadn't traded Mike Piazza, hoping above all else they goof gets resigned, even if he's not 'worth' it.
2008-12-31 11:07:19
94.   ChicagoDodger
90 You wonder how these negotiations go.

I mean, does Boras wait for the Dodgers to make an offer? Or does he propose one?

I get the feeling the Dodgers just might say yes if Boras said 3 years $66 million and he is yours.

What the Dodgers (probably) don't want is to offer something close to 3 years $66 million, and then have Boras shop that offer.

Neither side wants to be the first to commit, and the biggest reason for this dragging on, is the apparent unwillingness of either party to flinch.

2008-12-31 11:08:03
95.   D4P
But is your 12 year old fan side positively influenced by Manny's antics and dreadlocks, or by his homeruns?
2008-12-31 11:09:53
96.   D4P
Neither side wants to be the first to commit, and the biggest reason for this dragging on, is the apparent unwillingness of either party to flinch

Given that Manny is going to sign somewhere, this only works in our favor.

2008-12-31 11:10:34
97.   Jacob Burch
95 It doesn't know nor care to examine its own subconscious motivations. He just wants to see #99 when he goes to games more than a probable better-value solution.
2008-12-31 11:15:19
98.   bhsportsguy
94 The Dodgers did make Manny an offer back in November. Ned has put on the record this week that Manny remains their number one choice if the Dodgers sign another outfielder.

I don't know what else the team can do aside from waiting for Manny/Boras to get back to them.

Right now, the Dodgers have played their cards, its up to the other side to either call, raise or fold.

2008-12-31 11:17:42
99.   regfairfield
The only way the Dodgers can get a better left fielder than Manny in the next few years is if we get Holliday next year. Even if he's over paid by seven or eight million, that money would likely go to a mid-tier free agent, and those are the contracts that end up as disasters.

Getting Manny, overpaid or not, makes the Dodgers a better team for the next few years. That's what's important.

2008-12-31 11:18:10
100.   Jacob Burch
BH has been on a poker metaphor streak this week. I like it.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-12-31 11:19:06
101.   D4P
He just wants to see #99 when he goes to games more than a probable better-value solution

But does he want to see #99 hit homeruns or does he want to see #99 push around old guys and sit on the bench with a sore knee (can't remember which one)?

2008-12-31 11:19:52
102.   Jacob Burch
99 To add to DP4's question, this not only sums up my "12 year old" fandom, but it's all the little things which I probably "shouldn't" care about. I loved the way he did interviews. If I heard Petros was going to have a Manny interview, I actually listened to a show I consider insufferable. I loved the Angel Berroa interview, how he would always refer to Casey Blake by his full name. All of that stuff adds to the possibly irrational desire to really, really want him on my baseball team next year.
2008-12-31 11:20:30
103.   ChicagoDodger
96 Given that Manny is going to sign somewhere, this only works in our favor.

But does it really? Temperamental Manny may eventually sign for a perceived (by him) low ball contract and then start the same charade he started last year with Boston. He could even say, if I can't get the deal I want, then heck with it, I'll just pull a Karl Malone or Gary Payton deal and sign for 1 year with the Yankees for low money trying to win a perceived easy WS ring while at the same time to try and stick it to Boston.

2008-12-31 11:23:48
104.   Jacob Burch
101 It doesn't care. It has no old man pessimism. It thinks last years antics as an aberration, and the rest of the "Manny being Manny" silliness of every year prior to that it can probably deal with.

I just don't think being a "good" baseball fan has to be one hundred percent perfect winning rationality. I accept that I'm going to want to see and be a fan of things that SABR can't add up. It's not to say all of that isn't vitally important and should be thought about, but that if I let myself be a pessimistic curmudgeon about almost any move, I probably wouldn't be a fan to begin with.

2008-12-31 11:24:12
105.   ChicagoDodger
98 Right now, the Dodgers have played their cards, its up to the other side to either call, raise or fold.

Or the Dodgers could re-raise feeling the reluctance of Boras and Manny to get back to them is an indication their (Dodgers) bet was too low.

I am not saying the Dodgers necessarily should, but is is an option, that you failed to include.

2008-12-31 11:24:23
106.   silverwidow
Claudio Vargas isn't going to take James McDonald's innings, is he?
2008-12-31 11:25:18
107.   bhsportsguy
105 They can't re-raise unless Manny calls, right now, for all we know, Manny has stepped away from the table to get a drink.
2008-12-31 11:25:31
108.   Humma Kavula
101 C'mon, D4P. Jacob is basically admitting to siding with the heart in a heart-vs.-head argument.

Not to put words in his mouth, but it seems like he feels about Manny the same way that I feel (or felt, until recently) about Nomar Garciaparra.

Yeah, I knew there were better players out there, and I didn't care at all. My favorite player (ca. 2006) was playing for my favorite team and that was all that mattered. You can't parse it, you can't explain it, you can't bring logic to it.

As an aside, I will say that Nomar ceased being my favorite player when -- and only when -- (a) it was clear that his days as a regular were over, AND (b) I had a new favorite to take his place (the Bison).

2008-12-31 11:28:37
109.   D4P
C'mon, D4P. Jacob is basically admitting to siding with the heart in a heart-vs.-head argument

I understand that, but doesn't his "heart" like Manny because he hits homeruns, not because he has behavioral quirks? I submit that people only like/put up with his behavior because he's really good at hitting.

If Manny hit like Sweeney, nobody'd be wearing fake dreadlocks.

2008-12-31 11:29:26
110.   Jim Hitchcock
86 Thanks, Bob, I'll add this to the compilation :)
2008-12-31 11:29:48
111.   Humma Kavula
106 Question: how many major league innings should James McDonald throw next year, having thrown 147 at AA, AAA, and MLB last year?

Second question: how many of those innings should be out of the bullpen?

Third question: why do I keep typing "manny" when I mean "many?"

2008-12-31 11:32:13
112.   Humma Kavula
109 Sure. But when you love a player, you love everything about him.

I'll talk about Nomar, since he's my guy. As my favorite player, I loved -- for example -- his whole batting routine, the playing with the gloves, the cap, the shoes, everything. If (when?) Nomar was terrible, or if he weren't my favorite player, that would be incredibly annoying.

So not to speak for Jacob, but I'd guess that he loves the whole Manny package.

2008-12-31 11:33:59
113.   ChicagoDodger
107 Well in a real card game the Dodgers may not be able to re-raise. But in this particular game, the option is there to reassess your bet and increase it if the other player has not called, raised, or folded.

And, the Dodgers original and only bet (offer) came in November. If Manny has merely stepped away for a drink, that must be some drink.

2008-12-31 11:34:04
114.   ToyCannon
On the other hand my cynical brain tells me that when something was great the 1st time, you have to pay the piper for that greatness.

No matter what the stats say, my gut tells me that signing Manny will be a disaster and no words can calm the queasiness. I'd be more comfortable signing Manny if he'd had a normal two months with us.

It was like the 88 World Series. I knew afterward we'd pay a price for the bizarre World Championship. I just didn't realize at the time how severe the the price would be.

2008-12-31 11:34:30
115.   Jacob Burch
109 There's no question it's because he's a good hitter, and therefore fun to watch. Delivering as often as he did in games I saw live, combined with all the intangible stuff mentioned about, made him so easy to root for

But if he signed a three year deal, hit the snot out of the ball the first two, and then struggled a bit in the third? Or even somewhere before that, I'm sure I would pull for him and root for him harder than some--just like I did watching Bills fall apart in Game 5, Bison during so many strikeouts and Loney through a cold streak.

2008-12-31 11:35:45
116.   Eric Stephen
Third question: why do I keep typing "manny" when I mean "many?"

With Manny and Ethier, we potentially have a lot of typos in our future. Just wait until Kyle Orr ascends to the big club!

Also, I'm not too concerned with McDonald's innings since he is entering his age 24 season. I don't mind him starting the season out of the pen, but I'd like to see him starting in the second half. If he isn't starting by then, let's hope it is because we have (at least) 5 solid starters and not just because Jon Garland has a contract.

2008-12-31 11:36:37
117.   Jacob Burch
114 I think that's a certainly viable hunch to have, I just tend to be more optimistic than some people in this situation. I'm not advocating everybody should want us to sign Manny because he's fun, just that it's why my heart wants what it wants.
2008-12-31 11:38:15
118.   Eric Stephen
It was like the 88 World Series. I knew afterward we'd pay a price for the bizarre World Championship. I just didn't realize at the time how severe the the price would be

I've been meaning to do a blog post about how Orel's 1989 was eerily similar to his 1988, yet he finished 15-15 instead of 23-8. Orel ended the season 1-7 despite a 2.05 ERA over his last 9 games.

2008-12-31 11:38:41
119.   bhsportsguy
114 Sure, everything being equal, the Dodgers could stand pat and go after Holliday next year they'll have Jones and Schmidt off the books plus Pierre (if he is still around will much easier to deal with only 2 years left on his deal).

But who knows, the economy could be better and maybe even the Yankees will fill the need to have the highest paid outfielder in baseball.

2008-12-31 11:41:54
120.   Eric Stephen
I loved Manny long before he became a Dodger. I view him with the same fascination that I viewed Grady Little (whom I would listen to if he was reading the phone book). Grady didn't work out so great, but his tenure wasn't as bad as some make it out to be.

I would buy a documentary of Manny in a heartbeat, no questions asked.

2008-12-31 11:42:16
121.   GoBears
I couldn't work for you, Jon. Or for Daniel.

18 yrs ago (or so) I was at one of the two original Gordon Biersch restaurants, in Palo Alto (the other early one was in San Jose). A friend that I was with had been roommates with Dan Gordon back in college (at Cal). I asked Gordon why, as a good Cal Bear, he had opened a restaurant in Stanford country. His answer was "Stanford students make good employees," with the obvious implication that he rather enjoyed that he was the boss and not the other way around. This seemed to me to be the pinnacle of wisdom.

So sorry, I can't work for you. I can happily mow your lawn as a favor, however. You're a good guy, despite your alma mater.

2008-12-31 11:42:20
122.   ToyCannon
I have no interest in Matt Holliday. The Dodgers need to sign Manny, I just don't feel it will go well. I'm wrong enough that it shouldn't matter to anyone else what my gut says.
2008-12-31 11:44:22
123.   D4P
I'd be more comfortable signing Manny if he'd had a normal two months with us.

It seems like he'll probably be worth around $15-17 million in Fangraph terms, which (interestingly enough) will probably make him roughly as valuable as Ethier or Kemp.

2008-12-31 11:44:32
124.   silverwidow
7/31/09: A's Trade Matt Holliday to Cardinals for Brett Wallace and change.

Bet on it.

2008-12-31 11:44:36
125.   ToyCannon
Yes it was. That is not gut but fact.
2008-12-31 11:44:42
126.   bhsportsguy
121 Could you work for Bob T?
2008-12-31 11:55:59
127.   GoBears
126. That would be less difficult. He did go to UCLA (a strike against), but he realized the error of his ways and went to Cal for grad school. Grad school can't completely trump undergrad (where sports loyalties are sculpted), but I do admire the effort.

BTW, for anyone paying attention, the Pac-10 is now 3-0 in bowl games (Cal, Zona, Dux) with OSU and U$C to go. Natch, I'm hoping for a 4-1 final record. The Cal rivalry with Stanford (at least from my day) is one of friendly competition, mostly because both schools were so unremittingly awful at football and hoops in the 80s. The view of $C is much more visceral - unbridled contempt, disgust, and (of course) jealousy. I will root for ANYONE (yes, Bob, even Notre Dame) against U$C. Go Penn State!

2008-12-31 11:56:52
128.   ToyCannon
Awesome Dodger story.

The writers wife broke her leg the other day.

2008-12-31 11:58:39
129.   ToyCannon
I'm saddened that a Pac 10 alumni would root against the Pac 10 in the Rose Bowl unless the opponent was Texas.
2008-12-31 12:01:53
130.   Bob Timmermann
I even have a hard time rooting against USC in the Rose Bowl. I had thought about rooting for Penn State tomorrow, but I realized it's just to hard to do.

I have images of Woody Hayes imprinted on me from my youth. And nightmares about Ron Dayne. And running into the only football fans dumber than Arizona's: Northwestern's.

2008-12-31 12:03:59
131.   Eric Stephen
One of the great baseball calls of all time. I sincerely hope Chris Berman did not derive his "back, back, back" schtick from Red Barber.
2008-12-31 12:04:41
132.   Eric Stephen
Woo hoo, Bob's on board!
2008-12-31 12:06:37
133.   bhsportsguy
132 I have money riding on the game so I am board too.

The last time I had money on USC, I lost.

2008-12-31 12:06:49
134.   D4P
I hope the Pac-10 goes 5-0, and that USC avenges Oregon's 1995 Rose Bowl loss.
2008-12-31 12:08:36
135.   Bob Hendley
Not sure what to make of a school that produced both Mario Savio and Jeff Kent.

BTW has anyone seen anything on Mr. Grumps? Has he retired?

2008-12-31 12:08:58
136.   ToyCannon
Revenge is best served with a rose.
2008-12-31 12:14:16
137.   trainwreck
Go, Nittany Lions!
2008-12-31 12:15:03
138.   Eric Stephen
Revenge is a dish best served (to) Cole... Hamels for beating the Dodgers twice in the NLCS.
2008-12-31 12:22:21
139.   Bob Timmermann
I don't believe Mario Savio ever got a degree from Berkeley. But I don't think Jeff Kent did either.

Robert McNamara did graduate from Berkeley.

2008-12-31 12:22:35
140.   Eric Stephen
The Sun Bowl has a tad less offense than the Armed Forces Bowl.
2008-12-31 12:24:34
141.   bhsportsguy
139 Are you going to be walking amongst the Penn State fans in Old Pasadena today?

And do they venture as far down as South Pasadena?

2008-12-31 12:25:35
142.   KG16
I kind of like being a free agent football fan. I don't have to root for anyone, and just hope for a good game. And being a Long Beach State guy, I get to root for underdogs come basketball season, and hope like hell they get the Big West's one tournament invite through the conference tournament.
2008-12-31 12:25:50
143.   Gen3Blue
I hadn't realized the D's could have an Ethier/Orr situation in a few years. That's almost up with Hu's on first!
2008-12-31 12:29:05
144.   GoBears
I've never really understood conference loyalties. The other teams in "my" team's conference are the enemy. They're the teams we face every year. Why is some random team from another conference somehow a common enemy? I don't get it.

It probably matters that Cal is usually so bad (and hasn't been the Rose Bowl for 50 years) that I haven't had to experience losing to Big-10 schools in the biggest game. Rooting against $C or Ucla involves a bit of schadenfreude, I must admit.

2008-12-31 12:30:01
145.   berkowit28
I hadn't realized the D's could have an Ethier/Orr situation in a few years.

They may have to choose Ethier A Orr B at some point.

2008-12-31 12:30:21
146.   Bob Timmermann
I leave Pasadena to the tourists and people who want to camp out on Colorado Boulevard. The only people you will see in South Pasadena will be on New Year's Day after the game when they go to Carrow's, which is one of the few restaurants open in the area.
2008-12-31 12:31:29
147.   GoBears
129. By the way, when the Rose Bowl was U$C-Texas, I rooted hard for Texas. I HATE U$C. If they offered me a job at twice what I'm making now, I'd turn it down. Really. It's completely irrational - I get that. I'd probably take Stanford's money (in fact, I did for a year on a postdoc).
2008-12-31 12:32:35
148.   trainwreck
I agree. There are some schools I can root for in conference, but for the most part I am not going to. I would not root for the AFC West in the playoffs or the Giants.
2008-12-31 12:34:28
149.   Bob Timmermann
I believe rooting for teams in your own conference to do well in bowls and the NCAA basketball tournament falls under the "a rising tide lifts all boats" theory.

This explains why the other nine schools in the Pac-10 are so feared in football now. Each one is viewed as a potential USC.

Or maybe not.

2008-12-31 12:37:09
150.   D4P
I HATE U$C. If they offered me a job at twice what I'm making now, I'd turn it down

Would Mrs. GoBears be OK with that decision...?

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-12-31 12:38:30
151.   old dodger fan
145 I hope you're Dunn now.
2008-12-31 12:39:57
152.   mwhite06
144 Conference loyalties make sense these days because of the BCS. In the NFL, one can and would hate other teams in their division and root for them to lose, because the team has nothing to gain from their conference being considered "the strongest." In a BCS world however, the team you support is dependant on having other teams in their conference being good. Otherwise teams like Oregon get left out of the National Championship game in favor of Nebraska.
2008-12-31 12:41:17
153.   Humma Kavula
151 As we have already pointed out, there are Manny more puns to make.
2008-12-31 12:41:25
154.   ToyCannon
I'm not a Pac 10 Alumni but I have friends from most of the schools (Washington, Arizona being exceptions) in the conference which is why I root for them when they play outside the conference.
2008-12-31 12:43:26
155.   trainwreck
But the season is over. Nothing changes if the Pac-10 wins now.
2008-12-31 12:44:22
156.   berkowit28
151 Nomar Nomo No-how.
2008-12-31 12:44:58
157.   Eric Stephen
It could conceivably help next season.
2008-12-31 12:45:22
158.   mwhite06
155 True enough. However, see the multitude of articles saying that Penn State needs to win against USC or the Big 10 will be unofficially blackballed from the national championship game. Stewart Mandel's column on SI suggests that.
2008-12-31 12:45:35
159.   trainwreck
USC is going to be highly thought of regardless of the Rose Bowl game.
2008-12-31 12:47:09
160.   Ken Noe
151 153 156 Very DeWitt-y.
2008-12-31 12:48:12
161.   ToyCannon
Even if a big underdog knocks them silly? I would think that would make the whole conference look bad when far and above the best team in conference is beaten by Penn State.
2008-12-31 12:48:24
162.   Bob Timmermann
However USC is not highly thought of as much as Florida even though both had one loss to team's of relatively the same caliber (Oregon State and Ole Miss). And Florida lost at home.

The Oregon State loss essentially nullified the value of the Ohio State win. And all of the other Pac-10 wins were considered to be of no value for USC.

2008-12-31 12:50:48
163.   trainwreck
I do not think it will matter for next season. The players USC loses to the draft will be the biggest determining factor. USC has already killed the Big 10 enough the last few seasons to have good credibility against that conference.
2008-12-31 12:52:18
164.   trainwreck
I can worry about this stuff when UCLA is competing for national championships.
2008-12-31 12:53:30
165.   John Hale
I have a account open almost exclusively to wager on USC football so that when they win I make money and get some compensation for the pain I feel when they win. Its a sickness I got from a lifetime of cheering for the team crosstown.

This year was great as USC covered the win total over under yet didn't make the BCS game. It was win-win

2008-12-31 12:54:17
166.   Bob Timmermann
Looks like you have one thing not to worry about for the next 30-40 years.
2008-12-31 12:55:45
167.   Marty
USC by 20 tomorrow.
2008-12-31 12:57:20
168.   ToyCannon
The only time I remember UCLA even being in the National Championship conversation was the day before Edgerrin James ran wild on them.
2008-12-31 13:00:52
169.   Bob Timmermann
I guess you were too young in 1967. UCLA was #1 for a week in 1988.

And then came Timm Rosenbach.

2008-12-31 13:04:11
170.   D4P
Was UCLA ever #1 during the Cade McKnown "era"...?
2008-12-31 13:05:12
171.   John Hale
The new offensive coordinator for New Mexico St! Hired before the head coach. That was a bad day in the Rose Bowl.
But the Dodgers were world champs so we had that going for us.
2008-12-31 13:06:26
172.   ToyCannon
I was still in a Dodger coma in 88. In 67 I had no idea UCLA even existed. The 69 Rose Bowl I think was the first time I was exposed to College football when OJ ran wild in the Rose Bowl but Texas in the Cotton Bowl is who captured my fancy.
2008-12-31 13:09:00
173.   Bob Timmermann
Nope. UCLA got as high as #2 in 1998.

UCLA has been ranked #1 in 1954 (by UPI) at the end of the season and one other week. Also UCLA was #1 for one week in 1967 and for TWO weeks in 1988.

2008-12-31 13:14:57
174.   Jacob Burch
Absentmindedly associating NFL with Sundays, even in the playoffs, I cleared my schedule this Sunday and put all my eggs in Saturday's basket, including taking the Redheaded Lady to Disneyland.

When I finally put Colts on Saturday and this together (sometime late yesterday), I became devistated. The last time I didn't see a Colts LA-viewable TV game, let alone a playoff game, was the 41-0 Jets debacle when I had to work.

I'm going to have to hire a large crew of texters for updates, because I'm pretty sure there's no way I can wrestle myself out of this. Plus, I have been looking forward to it. Just wish I could have my Dodger Dog and eat it too.

2008-12-31 13:19:54
175.   ToyCannon
Why would you worry about missing the Chargers putting a bolt into the Colts? Your brain knew what it was doing. Trust it.
2008-12-31 13:23:28
176.   LogikReader
Speaking of which, would it be worth traveling to Glendale, AZ or San Diego to watch one of these Saturday games? I'm seeing some decent prices here on Ebay.
2008-12-31 13:24:32
177.   Bob Timmermann
I think you should go to the Cardinals playoff game because Cardinals home playoff games are rarer than snowstorms in Los Angeles.
2008-12-31 13:32:25
178.   Jacob Burch
175 Copy and pasted. I really like the Colts changes as long as Keiaho at the Mike doesn't blow it.
2008-12-31 13:32:57
179.   das411
Just watch it tomorrow guys, and remember Penn State fans are people too, even if they are all sunburned and dressed like an 82 year old man...

137 - High five!

2008-12-31 13:33:18
180.   Jacob Burch
176 Even outside of Disneyland, I sadly can't afford a ticket Saturday, otherwise I'd go. I did go to the regular season game this year, where the result (with a Sanderless, Mostly Saturdayless Colts)was not as TC suggests ;-).
2008-12-31 13:34:00
181.   bhsportsguy
178 Your typos changes instead chances are showing where your heart really lies.
2008-12-31 13:37:51
182.   Jacob Burch
181 Curses! That said, it does make sense: +Bob The Zombie and Jeff "Billy Mays" Saturday are things I like to do against the chargers.

Go Horse!

2008-12-31 13:38:08
183.   ToyCannon
Yuck, Disneyland on a Saturday. You deserve to be miserable unless children are involved.
2008-12-31 13:39:59
184.   Jacob Burch
183 Dad works for the Mouse, so free tickets are in the deal. I have no qualms with it. I tried to restructure it to Friday, but The Redhead said no dice.

It being free and in good company, it should be a pretty fun time--crazy lines or not.

2008-12-31 13:41:07
185.   Kevin Lewis
I picked USC -10 in Vegas. They just have to cover the over of 45 too!
2008-12-31 13:44:04
186.   natepurcell
I've won a lot money betting on USC.
2008-12-31 13:44:16
187.   Eric Stephen
My official prediction (31-6 USC) does not bode well for your over bet. Then again, I'm often quite wrong.
2008-12-31 13:47:52
188.   Bob Timmermann
The Sun Bowl is bringing back memories of the UCLA-Illinois John Hancock Bowl (as it was called at the time.)
2008-12-31 13:49:25
189.   Lexinthedena
I predict a closer-than-you-think 1st half, followed by a 17-3 second half by USC.
2008-12-31 14:00:52
190.   GoBears
I HATE U$C. If they offered me a job at twice what I'm making now, I'd turn it down

150 Would Mrs. GoBears be OK with that decision...

Oh yeah. She'd divorce me in an instant if I took a job at $C. Then she'd hunt me down and do severe bodily injury. She hates the place even more than I do. She basically assumes that anyone associated with the school is beneath contempt.

Well, maybe not really, but she'd talk a good game to that effect.

Besides, I'm the professor. She has a real job. She's the breadwinner. My income amuses her.

2008-12-31 14:06:00
191.   GoBears
152 Conference loyalties make sense these days because of the BCS.

Again, a detail that Cal fans can ignore. Only once ever has Cal been within shouting distance of a BCS bowl. The program is now good enough to have played in a minor bowl for 6 straight years (purely a function of being "bowl eligible" due to W-L record), but I remember when a winning season would have been a miracle, and a winning in-conference record a pipe dream. I don't care much whether UCLA's strength of schedule is enhanced by Oregon's success.

2008-12-31 14:07:55
192.   Jacob Burch
Just to add on, I'm not overly confident about Saturday. I think the Colts are the better team and can do it, but the matchup problems--especially with Bracket out--are horrendous. I'm sick to my stomach thinking about it.
2008-12-31 14:11:33
193.   Eric Stephen
If it's any consolation, the Chargers do not employ Matt Stairs.
2008-12-31 14:15:22
194.   GoBears
I think all 4 road teams should win this weekend. The WCs are all better than the lesser division winners.

An over of 45 for the Rose Bowl seems dicey. $c's defense is much better than the offense.

2008-12-31 14:15:50
195.   skybluestoday

Sean Casey Blake Dewitt

2008-12-31 14:17:07
196.   D4P

Are Cal and UCLA really so much poorer than Southern Cal...?

2008-12-31 14:17:46
197.   Howard Fox
for what it's worth....

San Diego

SC 31-10

2008-12-31 14:18:50
198.   D4P
With 9:49 remaining in the game, Pittsburgh has racked up 130 yards of total offense.

They trail by 3 points.

2008-12-31 14:21:02
199.   Howard Fox
has the Pac 10 ever gone undefeated in the bowl season?
2008-12-31 14:23:47
200.   silverwidow
My picks...


SC 35-14

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-12-31 14:25:28
201.   Bob Timmermann
Do you mean in a year when more than one team went to a bowl game?
2008-12-31 14:27:32
202.   Howard Fox
yes, under the current format, where 5 or 6 teams go...
2008-12-31 14:27:41
203.   D4P
Would 3-0 set (or tie) a record for lowest-scoring bowl game that didn't end in a scoreless tie?

Put another way, has there ever been a 2-0 or 3-0 bowl game score?

2008-12-31 14:29:58
204.   D4P
Not that it really matters, as Pittsburgh is bound to score pretty soon.
2008-12-31 14:30:21
205.   Howard Fox
how about has there ever been a bowl game ending in 3-2
2008-12-31 14:33:02
206.   Indiana Jon
203 Before Bob answers, I'm going to guess that there has never been a 3-0 or 2-0 game. He should prove my guess to be wrong any second now.
2008-12-31 14:35:12
207.   Bob Timmermann
There have been 0-0 games.
2008-12-31 14:38:04
208.   Bob Timmermann
1936 Sugar Bowl
2008-12-31 14:38:10
209.   GoBears
196. D4P

Are Cal and UCLA really so much poorer than Southern Cal...?


Um, yes.

2008-12-31 14:38:35
210.   Bob Timmermann
1942 Sugar Bowl
Fordham 2
Missouri 0
2008-12-31 14:38:51
211.   Indiana Jon
207 Yes, just saw the 1922 Rose Bowl was 0-0.
2008-12-31 14:41:27
212.   bhsportsguy
209 The real question is which school has the most books in its varied libraries?
2008-12-31 14:41:50
213.   D4P
Pitt takes over at their own 10 with 0:55 remaining, down 3.
2008-12-31 14:42:14
214.   Howard Fox
that's easy, it's the school of hard knocks
2008-12-31 14:44:09
215.   Bob Timmermann
I'm more impressed that the NY Times writer at the 1942 Sugar Bowl was able to write about 30 inches on a 2-0 game.

Fordham scored on a blocked punt in the first quarter. There were only two completed passed in the game and 285 yards of offense combined.

There was very bad weather for the game.

2008-12-31 14:45:39
216.   Bob Timmermann
How many points did Oregon score against Oregon State? Wasn't it over 60?
2008-12-31 14:45:41
217.   GoBears
209. Well, in that case, I think I'd take the UC system over just about any other (except perhaps Harvard). But our library budgets have been gutted lately.
2008-12-31 14:45:50
218.   D4P
Beavers win! Beavers win!
2008-12-31 14:46:44
219.   Bob Timmermann
Berkeley's libraries are a little bigger than UCLA's. Stanford is about the same size.

USC's is not.

2008-12-31 14:48:48
220.   D4P
UNC supposedly has a lot of books. I remember seeing a note recently that they just celebrated their X-millionth book, but I can't remember what X was.
2008-12-31 14:51:01
221.   Bob Timmermann
In the 1936 Sugar Bowl, TCU scored on a 26-yard field goal. They gave up a safety when QB Sammy Baugh stepped out of the end zone while passing.

The man who would revolutionize the NFL passing game was 3 for 11 with 5 picks for 53 yards in the game.

LSU was 3 for 24 in passing.

It was raining during that game too.

2008-12-31 14:51:51
222.   GoBears
218. So, chances are that the Pac-10 will go undefeated. But I hope not.
2008-12-31 14:57:57
223.   Bob Timmermann
According to the American Library Association, the largest university libraries are:

As of 2007

2008-12-31 15:10:09
224.   DaDoughboy
Since there seem to be at least one or 2 CFB fans here, hopefully this isn't frowned upon: A friend of mine has 2 tix to the Rose Bowl he can't use tomorrow and is using his sports crazed friends for help. 2 tix for $290 (face value) and he lives right near Pasadena to pick up. The seats are in Section 11, Row 40. Email me ASAP if interested at

Have a Happy New Year DT with Manny more to come! (sorry..couldn't resist)

2008-12-31 15:13:24
225.   Jacob Burch
Molina's Non-Run Dinger tops Stark's year end wacky list:

2008-12-31 15:21:25
226.   dzzrtRatt
225 Odd that Stark overlooks Jared Weaver no-hitting the Dodgers and losing.
2008-12-31 15:22:31
227.   Jacob Burch
226 I was just thinking that as well.
2008-12-31 15:24:25
228.   Jacob Burch
Another note: Tried Wurstküche yesterday, and it was pretty great. Rattlesnack did not disappoint, and the beer selection is really great. A definite pre-game spot for one of the (hopefully many!) DT games next year.
2008-12-31 15:30:49
229.   Eric Stephen
MLB Network just showed up on my channel 489 and 789 (HD). Bo Jackson just said hello.
2008-12-31 15:33:43
230.   DaDoughboy
Bo knows HD.
2008-12-31 15:38:50
231.   GoBears
223 Yeah, so I'm pretty happy with the UC library system. I actually request a lot of stuff from UCSD, UCI, and UCSB as well, and it usually only takes a couple days to arrive.
2008-12-31 15:41:54
232.   silverwidow
229 DIRECTV Channel 213

Tomorrow at 3 p.m. PT

2008-12-31 15:42:54
233.   DaDoughboy
My favorite thing in my room as a kid was the old Bo Jackson 'Black and Blue' Raiders-Royals poster. Man that guy could mash (and K). Still part of me wishes he could've stuck to one sport just to see how great he could be...
2008-12-31 15:44:43
234.   D4P
E-journal access is invaluable.
2008-12-31 15:45:03
235.   Eric Stephen
On Channel 789, Ozzie Smith just homered off Neidenfuer again.
2008-12-31 15:47:19
236.   GoBears
234. Word.
2008-12-31 15:50:25
237.   Bob Timmermann
The MLB Network shows up as a channel on my system, but it's dark now.

I'm more interested in the end of the Music City Bowl. The Fighting Olneys look to have won.

The Insight Bowl is not available for me. I don't know if this is a bad thing.

2008-12-31 15:52:40
238.   Marty
228 I went there last week. Had the italian sausage as a proof of concept. Figured if they screwed that up it wasn't worth going back. But it was a nice sausage. Fries were also good. But it's a tad pricey. The sausage, fries and creme soda was 13.50.
2008-12-31 15:53:21
239.   D4P
The Insight Bowl is not available for me. I don't know if this is a bad thing

I suppose that depends on what you'll be doing instead.

2008-12-31 15:53:39
240.   Eric Stephen
Next Tuesday at 9pm Pacific, there is a one hour show on MLB Network called "Dodger Blue," about the "history of the Dodgers players and teams."
2008-12-31 15:56:19
241.   Bob Timmermann
I have found the Insight Bowl online. I believe stealing the Insight Bowl broadcast is a victimless crime.
2008-12-31 15:58:15
242.   Jacob Burch
238 The more unique sausages we tried were all hits, as was the dipping sauces. A tad expensive is true, but to me it's worth it for the very unique experience and beer selection.
2008-12-31 15:58:35
243.   Bob Timmermann
Tickets are still available for the Cardinals playoff game. The owner was being interviewed on the sideline of the Insight Bowl and he said, "Everybody is welcome to come!"

That's very big of him.

2008-12-31 15:59:46
244.   Daniel Zappala
I am always conflicted about USC. On the one hand, I attended Stanford as an undergrad, and that's where my loyalties were forged. We hated USC. Then I went for USC for grad school, but never attended a football game. So can I root against USC despite being a graduate of the school? That just doesn't compute. On the other hand, I have no rooting interest in Penn State, though I think they'll give USC a much better game than people are expecting. So I'll likely watch as a disinterested third party, with a slight lean toward wanting a Pac-10 school to win.
2008-12-31 16:00:14
245.   D4P
I believe watching the Insight Bowl is a crime.
2008-12-31 16:00:58
246.   Daniel Zappala
128 That was a great story. Thanks for posting it.
2008-12-31 16:09:57
247.   Bob Timmermann
NFL Network commentator:

"I'm always amazed at how popular the NFL Draft Combine is..."

As am I.

2008-12-31 16:11:07
248.   Ken Noe
According to Wikipedia, Claudio Vargas's nickname is "Magic Man."
2008-12-31 16:12:21
249.   DaDoughboy
Fuentes and the Angels agree to a 2 yr deal worth $17.5MM..

2008-12-31 16:12:45
250.   Jim Hitchcock
246 Wow, what fun Vinny could have had with McLish's handle.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-12-31 16:15:30
251.   D4P
"I'm always amazed at how popular the NFL Draft Combine is..."

That sentence would be equally accurate without the Draft Combine.

2008-12-31 16:18:53
252.   dzzrtRatt
244 I, too, have this unsettled feeling about USC. I always rooted against them, before I went to Cal and after. Even though they were extremely watchable. Even though they played some memorable Rose Bowl games that I saw in person. Still, I rooted for whoever was playing them.

But lately...I can't love them, but jeez, I have developed such respect for them. Maybe it's because LA lacks an NFL team, so SC is the closest we've got. My rooting interest in Cal will never change, but whenever Cal's not in the picture, I find myself wanting to root for them. So that's what I'll be doing tomorrow.

2008-12-31 16:26:45
253.   CanuckDodger
I doubt anybody has exact answers to these questions, but I'll take approximate answers too: (1) At Dodger Stadium, when a Dodger player is about to bat, how long does his musical intro last? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? 15 seconds? (2) When the Dodgers' closer comes into a game at DS, how long does his song last? For instance, how long would Gagne's "Welcome To The Jungle" play?
2008-12-31 16:28:02
254.   Bob Timmermann
1) I would guess it's between 5-10 seconds and closer to 5.
2) I would guess that might last a minute tops.
2008-12-31 16:30:18
255.   GoBears
I do respect Pete Carroll. But remember that in college sports, the rich get richer. Great teams get the best recruits. It takes a real bozo to screw that up. The most impressive guys are the ones who can take a lousy program and make them good enough to compete for the top recruits.

$C is like the Yankees - they start with a huge advantage (at least wrto the rest of the conference). It's not money, but "tradition" - a virtuous cycle for villains.

Actually, I think it's one reason that many $c players don't thrive in the pros like you might expect, especially QBs and WRs. They just so much bigger/faster/stronger than their college opponents, and because the team has no weak links, they're ALWAYS open/protected/given/unblocked/given huge holes to run through. When they get to the next level, they often haven't learned how to handle the difficulties posed by better competition.

I was sure that Aaron Rodgers would be better than Leinart in part because he had to be better to succeed in college (quick release, better reads, more mobile).

2008-12-31 16:31:28
256.   CanuckDodger
254 -- Thanks.
2008-12-31 16:32:29
257.   Bob Timmermann
Aaron Rodgers appears to be not as good as Matt Cassel.

Go figure.

Matt Leinart will end up being marginally better than Ryan Leaf.

2008-12-31 16:33:30
258.   Bob Timmermann
I would think that the music for the closer may be closer to 30 seconds.

People tend to misjudge time when they're sitting around bored.

2008-12-31 16:34:52
259.   D4P
Aaron Rodgers appears to be not as good as Matt Cassel

Do the Packers spy on other team practice sessions...?

2008-12-31 16:41:28
260.   DaDoughboy
They would usually start "Welcome to the Jungle" before the bullpen gate would open. Playing through the jog out and then through the first few warm-ups on the mound...I would say a good full minute-plus.
2008-12-31 16:46:33
261.   Bumsrap
If Manny is not about the money, how does one explain Boras being his agent?
2008-12-31 16:47:55
262.   Uncle Miltie
Went to the holiday bowl last night. Exciting game and a nice win for Oregon.

Bryce Brown, the no. 1 high school RB in the country, is strongly considering Oregon (he's currently a Miami verbal). I can't see why any RB recruit would choose Miami over Oregon from just a football standpoint.

2008-12-31 16:48:02
263.   Bob Timmermann
In San Diego, it seemed to be much longer than I thought,

In this clip, "Hell's Bells" plays for about 2:20.

2008-12-31 16:52:37
264.   Daniel Zappala
Why does hell have bells? I would think they'd have something that sounds like fingernails on chalkboards, maybe a kazoo or a recorder.
2008-12-31 16:52:56
265.   D4P
I've been trying to figure out if Ed Whitelaw is still teaching. It looks like "Economy of the Pacific Northwest" is scheduled to be taught this spring, and as far as I know, he's the only one who teaches that class...
2008-12-31 16:54:41
266.   Bob Timmermann
If you wanted to make hitters feel bad, I would make the sound guy play a copy of "A Horse With No Name." That should crush their spirit.
2008-12-31 17:00:01
267.   Uncle Miltie
265- Ed Whitelaw is indeed teaching in the spring. Unfortunately, that's the only course that he's teaching and it's at 8 a.m.....ugh.
2008-12-31 17:02:10
268.   D4P
He loves to teach at 8:00. It's part of the experience.

But it's worth it.

2008-12-31 17:03:12
269.   GoBears
257. Shaa, as IF!

259. Like Pavlov's dog. Allude to the Foxboro Footballers, get a snarky comment from D4P about cheating. Bob - was that your intent? And if so, why?!

2008-12-31 17:06:26
270.   Bob Timmermann
I know. And I keep sticking my hand on the cupcake that's good an electrode under it that shocks me.

But I want that cupcake!

2008-12-31 17:18:06
271.   Bob Timmermann
They're putting the band back together! Ed Orgeron is going to Tennessee to be Lane Kiffin's "associate head coach."
2008-12-31 17:32:13
272.   Uncle Miltie
268- but in order to get that experience, I would need to attend class :)

I had a few 8 a.m. classes as a freshman. I was literally a walking zombie. Never again.

2008-12-31 17:58:18
273.   Jon Weisman

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