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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Jon Says Rickey
2009-01-12 07:54
by Jon Weisman

Once upon a time, I got to ride shotgun around the Long Beach Grand Prix course for two or three laps with Al Unser, Jr. behind the wheel. It went by in a flash, it wasn't like I was driving, but I got my taste of the fast lane.

And once upon a time, I got to see Rickey Henderson in a Dodger uniform, and I feel similarly privileged. Congrats, Rickey, on your imminent induction to the Hall of Fame.

* * *

Diamond Leung of the Press-Enterprise has some of the interview that Kim Ng gave XM's Lee Hamilton this weekend. Here's an excerpt:

The most important thing is to just keep talking. I don't think we've drawn our line in the sand at all (at two years or two years plus an option year). I do think it's going to take a lot of discussion. I do think Scott is out there looking at his other options, and Manny is looking at his other options. I think a lot of other clubs are a little slow progressing as well, which is probably adding to our situation because obviously Manny's going to find the place for him. So it's all intertwined.

I wouldn't be surprised to see us do some things in the next couple weeks. Maybe a little flurry here and there. Hopefully we can get some things done. We're definitely working the phones. We've got a lot of people that we're talking to, both relievers and starters, and obviously Manny. We're just going to have to wait and see. ...

Leung also links to a WFAA interview with Clayton Kershaw.

Comments (170)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2009-01-12 08:55:46
1.   Jacob Burch
Anyone get a Huell Howser vibe from this Clayton interview?
2009-01-12 08:58:04
2.   delias man
I wish all voters would only vote for the absolute best of the best. My ballot would only have Rickey and Big Mac.
2009-01-12 09:13:25
3.   kinbote
I do think it's going to take a lot of discussion.

From Kim Ng's hot new release, "Lotta Discussion (I do think)."

2009-01-12 09:18:17
4.   silverwidow
How come Leung didn't credit ME for finding the Kershaw interview? ;)
2009-01-12 09:23:18
5.   ToyCannon
When you allow borderline cases like Drysdale, Sutton, and Brock you can't close the door on the Blyleven's and Raine's of the world. The HOF has already been compromised so the only thing they should do is vote along the same precedents they have already set.
What is to be gained by exclusivity? Is Cooperstown running out of space for plaques?

My votes this year: Henderson, Blyleven, Trammel, Raines

2009-01-12 09:29:44
6.   Bob Timmermann
I tried to order a rickey with a Big Mac once, but I was told that they didn't serve spirits at McDonald's.
2009-01-12 09:35:34
7.   Jacob Burch
Is there a precedence for an Andre Dawson type, outside of the really-really fringe entries (Rizzuto, Reese)? I'm behind on my HoF history knowledge
2009-01-12 09:39:47
8.   Bob Timmermann
What do you mean by an "Andre Dawson" type?

There are a few outfielders in the HOF that you would be surprised to find there.

Like Ross Youngs or Harry Hooper.

2009-01-12 09:41:12
9.   delias man
5 The standards should have been strict from the start. But I do enjoy the arguments, so it is OK.
2009-01-12 09:44:26
10.   ToyCannon
Do you mean a player whose lifetime OB% is < then the average during the time he played, and whose slug% is < then .500 and who played a majority of his games in the corner outfield?
2009-01-12 09:44:42
11.   underdog
Congrats to Rickey!


Off topic... How exciting (well, not really) -- I'm quoted in a quickie article on the Denver Post's site about fan reaction to the Broncos new head coach hire. (See: Dashiell.)

Not that any of us really know what we're talking about, but it sometimes still amazes me how ignorant and quick to judge fans are.

2009-01-12 09:45:33
12.   Bob Timmermann
You are forgetting about the cool nickname.
2009-01-12 09:46:18
13.   underdog
the fans there are, I meant to say.
2009-01-12 09:47:17
14.   Jacob Burch
10 If Phil Rizzuto can make it, I'm never shocked to find above-average types in there. But I shall pencil you in the "Anti-" camp.
2009-01-12 09:49:05
15.   underdog
I saw that Harry Hooper had a biography that looked kind of interesting. Didn't realize he went to St Mary's here in the Bay Area. Babe Ruth admired him, as far as I can tell.
2009-01-12 09:54:13
16.   underdog
14 Tony Dungy's stepping down as head coach. He's a really good guy, I wish him well. Sounds like Caldwell is already designated his successor.
2009-01-12 09:58:56
17.   Jon Weisman
In response to Sam's comment last night, I was actually rooting for Penelope in the supporting actress category last night. And as much as I love Kate, I was a little disappointed by her lack of composure on stage - especially the second time.
2009-01-12 09:58:58
18.   Jacob Burch
16 Caldwell was pre-designated last year to keep him from leaving to another HC spot. I'm still beyond depressed over this though--Dungy is probably the closest thing I got to a Sports-related hero. His book, though a little schlocky at times, really helped me through a not-so-great period when I get it as a Christmas gift from my mom.
2009-01-12 10:00:24
19.   LogikReader
Mornin' fellas.

First on Dungy. I can't say enough about what a good guy Dungy was. My feeling is, he's a good coach, a great motivator, but unfortunately a lousy coach in the playoffs considering his talent.

Or put more succinctly, he's the Bobby Cox of the NFL.


Speaking of "teams that should have won much more in the playoffs", I saw a replay of a really wild game on MLB Network. Cubs/Pirates from 1991... and the Cubs had a 7-2 lead, only to give it all up in the last two innings.

Game was tied, Cubs break the tie in the 11th, then in the same inning Andre Dawson hits a Grand Slam to put the Cubbies ahead by 5.

Bottom of the inning, the Pirates come back and win the game with 6 runs in the bottom of the 11th. As wild a game as you'll ever see in baseball.

It was fun watching that game again... but it reminds me about how hated the Pirates were back then. They had that "Baltimore Ravens/New England Patriots" feel to them... a bunch of guys who were hard to root for, if that makes sense.

And now the Pirates are the worst team in the Mid-West.

2009-01-12 10:01:48
20.   Bob Timmermann
I liked the Jim Leyland era Pirates with the skinny Barry Bonds.
2009-01-12 10:02:47
21.   Jacob Burch
19 I swear, I hear one more unprecedented "Not a good playoff coach" I'll flip. It's -hard- to win in the playoffs in the NFL, no matter your talent at any position. Out side of BB, who exactly post-cap did much better? Shanahan should be proof that any lucky season or two can get deluded by parity pretty darn quick.
2009-01-12 10:03:48
22.   Bob Timmermann
Bud Grant and Marv Levy were good playoff coaches.

But only to a point.

2009-01-12 10:04:25
23.   D4P
I liked the Jim Leyland era Pirates with the skinny Barry Bonds

And the non-horrendous Bobby Bonilla.

2009-01-12 10:05:17
24.   LogikReader

I'd say Bill Cowher was pretty good. It'd be easy to compare Cowher to Dungy, but Bill Cowher took some teams with mediocre QBs fairly far into the playoffs, even to the Super Bowl in 1995.

That Pittsburgh had a 1 seed in some of those years probably spoke about the rest of the AFC at the time.

2009-01-12 10:06:19
25.   LogikReader
20 23

Maybe it was just me? :-)

2009-01-12 10:07:30
26.   underdog
I agree, it's all a crapshoot in the playoffs. Dungy was a good coach, period. You face a hot team, sometimes that's all it takes to knock you off. I'd rather have Dungy as my coach than Norv Turner. It helps to have a great QB and running game, etc, too. But anyway, he always struck me as a good man who went through some real tragedy and came through it with dignity. But escaping football for awhile will clearly be good for him.
2009-01-12 10:07:54
27.   fiddlestick
I could listen to Harry Carey say "Paul Assenmacher" all day.
2009-01-12 10:08:35
28.   underdog
Plus, didn't Dungy win a super bowl?

Cowher always impressed me, though, yeah. I'd at first hoped he'd be available to coach this year and that the Broncos could afford him, but when both things were obviously not going to happen I moved on...

2009-01-12 10:08:50
29.   Disabled List
Attn: Dexter fans. Michael C. Hall and Jennifer Carpenter got married over the weekend. Of course they're only siblings on the show and not IRL, but.... ew.
2009-01-12 10:09:36
30.   D4P
I didn't meant that I liked them, just that Bobby Bonilla was actually good at one time.

Then he became a Dodger.

2009-01-12 10:10:23
31.   Jacob Burch
24 And he also had tremendously better defenses than Dungy had most of the years in Indy, and equally poor QBs with Tampa. Both also only won one Superbowl, and Cowher had two extra seasons and a much better franchise to turn around than Dungy did.

The Playoffs are such a roll of the dice, and so little has to do with the head coach, that it drives me bonkers to see it be a knock against such a tremendous teacher and mentor.

2009-01-12 10:13:05
32.   cargill06
I think the Colt's need a overhaul in defensive philosphy. Just running that vanilla never blitz spend most of the time in cover 2 or cover 2 man makes it hard for the defense to get of the field at times. And it was evident in the SD game. You're leaving your best weapon on the sideline most of the games.
2009-01-12 10:14:10
33.   Humma Kavula
In honor of Bill James, I think we should cut Rickey Henderson in half and elect both half-Rickeys to the Hall of Fame. Who's with me?
2009-01-12 10:15:05
34.   kinbote
27 My favorite name he pronounced was Andres Galarraga. Talk about a mouthful of marbles!
2009-01-12 10:16:15
35.   bhsportsguy
I was trying to figure this out for a longer comment when Rickey's election is official but did you know that there are more San Francisco Giants, at least 3 (Marichal, McCovey and Perry plus Cepada) who started their careers in San Francisco than LA Dodgers, one (Sutton) in the HOF.

Also more Athletics, (Henderson, Jackson, Fingers, Hunter).

2009-01-12 10:16:35
36.   Jacob Burch
32 Hindsight is 20/20, and the Colts are in Cover 2 an incredibly overstated amount. They play a lot more Cover 3 and Cover 1.

They don't blitz because that's how the personnel is designed. When only one team over the last ten years has an easy claim to being a better franchise, I'm not going to go clamoring for Change for no good reason.

2009-01-12 10:16:44
37.   JoeyP
I wish Dungy would come out of retirement and coach the Rams.

Dungy completely turned around Tampa Bay & he won a Super Bowl with the Colts.

I dont buy the "cant win with talent" argument, bc the NFL has a hard salary cap that pretty much levels the entire playing field. Once you get to the playoffs, all the teams are good & you only get 1 chance to win.

2009-01-12 10:18:53
38.   D4P
My favorite name he pronounced was Andres Galarraga. Talk about a mouthful of marbles!

Harry had a hard time bargle nawdle zouss-ing.

2009-01-12 10:22:26
39.   Disabled List
34 My favorite was Mark Grudzielanek, which Harry famously attempted to pronounce backwards once.
2009-01-12 10:23:01
40.   Penarol1916
20. I especially liked them in the playoffs against the Braves. Oh how I hated those Braves teams.
2009-01-12 10:23:18
41.   LogikReader

I concur. Whatever Dungy's shortcomings were, he was as good a coach as Indy ever had in their history (at least since 1984).

Norv Turner is 3-2 with the Bolts in the playoffs. Is Turner all of a sudden a good coach? No way. Turner is a lousy coach regardless of how well the Chargers did in January.

Not unlike Bob Brenly and the D-Backs...

2009-01-12 10:23:32
42.   silverwidow
In the slim chance Manny doesn't sign, Vlad (if his knees hold up) or Jason Bay could be good options for 2010.

Matt Holliday is realistically out of reach.

2009-01-12 10:24:39
43.   Jacob Burch
41 Just to clear one thing up: I wasn't attacking you or saying you were taking the opinion of Dungy being a bad coach--just sparked me getting hot and bothered.

What a terrible 8 days of sports for me.

2009-01-12 10:24:47
44.   silverwidow
I've always wanted to see Vlad in a Dodger uni, so that's my sentimental choice, but Bay is the better player at this point.
2009-01-12 10:27:21
45.   Bob Timmermann
Mike Piazza will be the second player to start his career as an LA Dodger to make the HOF.

Pedro Martinez will be the third.

2009-01-12 10:29:47
46.   LogikReader

Speaking of Bay, Bonds, and Bonilla... I think it's a real shame the Pirates couldn't be a good team again.

They've been pretty hopeless for a while now. Cheap ownership and Dave Littlefield probably had a lot to do with that.

2009-01-12 10:30:05
47.   cargill06
36 I'm a huge Peyton fan and I can't stand all the blame he gets for him record in the playoffs espically when he doesn't get many oppurtunites to score becuase he's constantly on the sideline.
2009-01-12 10:30:16
48.   Jacob Burch
45 Don Sutton, for those who aren't as rapid-quick with the knowledge like me (I had to google around)
2009-01-12 10:31:59
49.   Humma Kavula
48 or you could consult 35 .
2009-01-12 10:32:00
50.   Bob Timmermann
Or you could have looked at bhsportsguy's original comment.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2009-01-12 10:32:24
51.   Jacob Burch
47 Blitzing more isn't going to fix this. You may get him on the field more (but not as often as you may think), but they'd also have to play from behind more often--something the Colts team does not like doing. You'd also have to spend more on blitz-worthy linebackers, and faster CBs that could handle M2M in a blitz package.

It's not an empty bubble, and I'm too happy being a Colts fan to think changes need to happen.

2009-01-12 10:32:40
52.   JoeyP
42- I wouldnt want Vlad at all. As he ages & his bat speed decreases, he's going to be awful bc he has no plate discipline.
2009-01-12 10:32:41
53.   D4P
I especially liked them in the playoffs against the Braves. Oh how I hated those Braves teams

Yeah, those Braves teams were odious. Stupid Sid Bream slide.

2009-01-12 10:33:02
54.   Jacob Burch
49 50 I'm going to go take a nap or something. Or just blame duress from the Dungy announcement.
2009-01-12 10:35:21
55.   JoeyP
I could see Vlad being done at age 33 ala Juan Gonzalez.
2009-01-12 10:42:56
56.   cargill06
54 I can't find the stat anywhere, I'm just curious where they rank in TOP year by year since Dungy has took over.
2009-01-12 10:50:08
57.   Jacob Burch
56 CBS has it and it tends to be an average of 28-29--middle/lower tier. But this is --much-- more because of the way teams play the Colts than anything their defense can do.

Could they run a different scheme and get Peyton on the field more? Probably. Would it end up in better teams? I highly, highly doubt it.

2009-01-12 10:50:27
58.   underdog
55 - Or Andruw Jones. ;-)
2009-01-12 10:52:28
59.   silverwidow
So who's going to start for us when Martin plays in the WBC? Ardoin? Ellis? Ausmus?
2009-01-12 10:53:28
60.   bhsportsguy
The other thing I noticed about the HOF, when I was growing up, the HOF was a pretty big deal to me, reading as much baseball history as I did.

Though I saw them late in their careers, you knew Mays, Clemente, Aaron and Frank Robinson were going to Cooperstown. I knew that many players on the team I hated, the Reds, would also be there. The way Vinny swooned about Tom Seaver and speak of him in such reverent tones made you appreciate him.

But for many reasons, not the least of which being bracketed by the great players of the previous generation and then the stats busting years in the post-1994 strike years, many players whose career covered the mid-'70s to 1995 just fall short in terms of HOF worthiness.

Even some who have made it, Paul Molitor, Dave Winfield, Eddie Murray, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Jr. and Ryne Sandberg are good even great players but not in the Mays/Clemente/Aaron or even Morgan/Schmidt/Seaver class.

2009-01-12 10:54:48
61.   cargill06
57 So, they probably average roughly 1 point per minute of possesion. If they can get him on the field 3 or 4 minutes more a game will the defensive compromise justify it? I think if they mixed things up more it would also free up Freendy, Mathis, Brock as they won't be double teamed as much.
2009-01-12 10:56:06
62.   cargill06
61 I'm also saying this as someone who only watches 3-4 Colts games start to finish all year.
2009-01-12 10:58:28
63.   Icaros

Start for us in Spring Training?

2009-01-12 11:00:29
64.   Jacob Burch
61 I just don't think the aggregate advantage is worth it. Only Dwight gets double teamed, and that seems to be every other game. The advantages you get from Cover 2--if you have someone that can draft well like Bill Polian--are too much to make up for an extra 3-4 minutes of offense, and that's --if-- you bring in the personal to make a team that Blitz a little more, which isn't easy to do.

There are a few good write-ups about Tampa 2 and its myths/legends (There is some interview with Tony where he says how they play more Cover-1 or 3 than people think, I just can't find it) and why it works so well.

2009-01-12 11:03:32
65.   katysdad
Henderson and Rice are the only two voted into the Hall of Fame today.
2009-01-12 11:04:10
66.   cargill06
Is it known if Caldwell will keep the same coaching philosphies as Dungy?
2009-01-12 11:04:57
67.   Jacob Burch
TC, what is your argument against Rice?

Like Dawson, this is me actually wondering, not saying "How could you not vote for him?!"

2009-01-12 11:06:13
68.   Jacob Burch
66 He's been the Asst. Head Coach for four seasons, so it's pretty much a sure bet.

That said, the Colts coaching structure tends to work where the head coach sets a very general approach, and lets his assistants be actively in charge of setting the standard/approach over their group.

2009-01-12 11:07:53
69.   bhsportsguy
Josh has a longer post in his Inside The Dodgers blog but he notes that today, the Dodgers begin their winter development program and there are some additional names to the players attending this event.

Graduate Group"- from last year's program:
Clayton Kershaw, Blake Dewitt, Cory Wade, Scott Elbert, Ramon Troncoso, James McDonald, Chin Lung Hu

Pitchers: James Adkins, Jesus Castillo, Brent Leach, Josh Lindblom, Jacobo Meque
Travis Schlicting

Position Players: Tony Abreu, Josh Bell,
Ivan DeJesus, A.J. Ellis, Austin Gallagher, Jamie Hoffmann, Andrew Lambo, Lucas May, Russell Mitchell, Xavier Paul, Trayvon Robinson, Matt Wallach

The post also mentions that guest speakers such as USC AD Mike Garrett, LSU Baseball Coach Skip Bertman and Vin Scully. And they will go on the town to places like Pasadena.

2009-01-12 11:09:14
70.   bhsportsguy
67 For me, if you vote for Rice, why not Dave Parker, Andre Dawson or Dale Murphy?
2009-01-12 11:12:07
71.   katysdad
Rice was named on 76.4 percent of the ballots. Seventy-five percent is the required amount to become a Hall of Famer. Rice received 412 votes, just seven more than the minimum amount he needed.
2009-01-12 11:12:09
72.   Kevin Lewis

Oh man, I need to follow them around a bit.

2009-01-12 11:14:10
73.   Jacob Burch
Has Jon posted a year-end movie list that I haven't noticed? I need to make sure to round out a list to do for my pre-Oscar weekends.

So far I've seen: Dark Knight (duh), Slumdog, Wrestler, Ballast, and The Fall. Milk, Waltz With Bashir and Doubt are on my list of probably-will-see.

2009-01-12 11:14:59
74.   Jacob Burch
Tack on Vicky Cristina Barcelona on my probable list as well
2009-01-12 11:15:18
75.   katysdad
Henderson was listed on 511 ballots (94.8 percent) to win election in his first year on the ballot. He becomes the 44th player to be elected by the BBWAA in his first year of eligibility.
2009-01-12 11:15:21
76.   bhsportsguy
70 Dave Parker also won an MVP, won batting titles, played on 2 World Series winning teams and unlike Rice, for a big man was a great outfielder with one the best arms in his era. And he doesn't get the love that Rice gets because he never played for a major market club.
2009-01-12 11:19:11
77.   underdog
Jacob, I posted my list here yesterday; it's on GreenCine Central if you're interested. Post your faves there in the comments!


Bruce Jenkins was just on KNBR talking about his hall of fame voting. Was kind of interesting. He said he voted for Jack Morris but not Bert Be Home Blyleven. I can definitely see the argument against BB, but was surprised by Morris. (But I actually really liked Morris through his career and think maybe he is underrated.) He also said he really struggled with his Andre Dawson pick but ultimately voted 'no.' And they also made fun of the older sportswriter in Arizona who apparently voted against Rickey but then later said "I was rushed!" when voting (how can you be rushed?) and wishes he could do it over again.

2009-01-12 11:28:22
78.   Humma Kavula
Congratulations to our two new Hall of Famers.

Andre Dawson pulls three more voters than last year. Bert Blyleven pulls two more voters than last year.

2009-01-12 11:33:09
79.   blue22
4 out of 5 voters feel that Tim Raines is not a hall of famer. That is stunning.
2009-01-12 11:33:51
80.   das411
How on earth did some people not vote for someone who retired as the ALL-TIME leader in walks, stolen bases, and runs scored??
2009-01-12 11:35:06
81.   blue22
80 - Maybe some are still expecting him to make that next comeback...
2009-01-12 11:36:02
82.   Humma Kavula
80 Slowly, slowly grind the wheels of progress.
2009-01-12 11:36:21
83.   bhsportsguy
If you would have told me in 1975 that Jim Rice would be a HOF and Fred Lynn would not, I would have laughed and laughed.
2009-01-12 11:40:40
84.   Jacob Burch
After reading TC's list and BH's comments, I'm in the boat of being baffled at the percentages of Rice and Raines. Is playing in Boston the only real edge Rice has?
2009-01-12 11:46:39
85.   bhsportsguy
84 Here is interesting stat for Rice, he now ranks below 5oth place in both career home runs and RBI despite spending his career in Fenway Park and on some pretty good teams.
2009-01-12 11:46:53
86.   bhsportsguy
85 50th place.
2009-01-12 11:47:02
87.   Indiana Jon
79 22.6% for Raines is just pitiful. I thought maybe with Henderson eligible this year it would have drawn some more votes for Raines since they were similar type players, but I guess not.
2009-01-12 11:50:07
88.   Humma Kavula
The interesting thing about this year's ballot is not who was elected -- that was just about a given, in my mind -- but how little movement there was. +2 votes for Dawson. +3 votes for Blyleven. -10 votes for Raines. Even Rice -- who was an absolute slam dunk to get elected, I thought, gained only 4% or so and squeaked in by seven votes.
2009-01-12 11:51:09
89.   blue22
87 - Instead it looks like it was the "similar but Ricky was better than Raines" effect.

You can vote for both, even if one was clearly a better player!

2009-01-12 11:51:09
90.   Eric Stephen
For a second I thought you were using an old-school typewriter.
2009-01-12 11:52:46
91.   GMac In The 909
Looking ahead, here are the first-timers on the 2010 ballot:

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura and Todd Zeile.

Karros should get in for his hair, and McGriff should too for that awesome commercial.

2009-01-12 11:56:39
92.   blue22
91 - Alomar, yes.
Larkin, yes.
Edgar, Yes! (but probably not)
2009-01-12 11:58:41
93.   Eric Stephen
Of that group I would vote for Alomar, Larkin, Edgar, and Crime Dog. I doubt any of them get in next year though.

Man, Baseball-Reference is slow today.

2009-01-12 12:00:13
94.   Icaros

If you would've told me that in 1975, I would've soiled my diaper and continued feeding.

2009-01-12 12:01:21
95.   Humma Kavula
91 There are no slam dunks in that group.

Alomar should be a hall of famer, but I'd imagine many voters will remember his extremely rapid and high-profile decline, not to mention his experience with a LOOGY, er, I mean, loogie.

Barry Larkin should also be a hall of famer, but as he immediately precedes the age of Jeter/A-Rod/Nomar, I wonder how voters will view him.

Edgar Martinez is the most interesting case. If you believe that Paul Molitor settled the can-a-DH-be-a-HOFer question, then Edgar is an easy yes vote. But even Molitor saw a bunch of time in the field. Molitor's total putouts plus assists: over 6700 - not a lot but significant. Martinez's total putouts plus assists: less than 1600. Can a pure DH be a HOFer?

Fred McGriff -- I also wonder how voters will look at him due to the steroid era. Are 493 homers and career .377 OBP enough?

2009-01-12 12:03:05
96.   bhsportsguy
95 If they can keep McGwire out without any tangible proof then how can they vote in Fred McGriff?
2009-01-12 12:03:50
97.   Disabled List
Enough of the borderline '80s stars on the Hall of Fame ballot. I'm tired of having the same Rice-Blyleven-Dawson-Murphy-Trammell-Morris debates every year. Now it's time for some borderline '90s stars!

Alomar is a slam dunk, but I'm not so sure about Larkin or McGriff. And I have a feeling Edgar Martinez is about to be the new Jim Rice.

2009-01-12 12:08:56
98.   Humma Kavula
96 They can keep McGwire out without tangible proof like this -- and before I begin here, I will note that I do NOT endorse this line of thinking:

McGwire, through his career, was linked to PEDs. McGwire, after his career, gave a shameful performance in front of Congress in which he refused to say he didn't use PEDs.

McGriff, to the best of my knowledge: neither of those.

Maybe I'm wrong about that assumption, and if I am, then mea culpa. But if I'm right, some voters will be able to justify a yes vote for McGriff but not McGwire.

For what it's worth, I'd vote for both of them.

2009-01-12 12:08:58
99.   bhsportsguy
97 If he is a slam dunk, that means fielding as taken on much more importance than in the past.

Players are still primarily considered HOFers for their offense.

2009-01-12 12:17:58
100.   Eric Stephen
I like how similar that 1975 Sox OF ended up:

Rice: 128 OPS+ career
Lynn: 129 OPS+
Dewey: 127 OPS+

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2009-01-12 12:18:06
101.   Disabled List
99 Robbie Alomar scores a 193 on Bill James' Hall of Fame Monitor. 130 is considered a HOF lock.

By comparison, Rickey Henderson's score is 183.

2009-01-12 12:22:04
102.   Eric Stephen
To my knowledge, nobody every found a bottle of andro in McGriff's locker. He has nowhere near the stigma attached to him as McGwire does.

Of course, andro was not banned in 1998 so it makes for a weird situation with Big Mac.

2009-01-12 12:27:12
103.   trainwreck
Andro is not even anabolic. People completely overreacted to that stuff.
2009-01-12 12:28:31
104.   Humma Kavula
103 That might be a completely valid argument, but I do believe that it would be a completely ineffective one for most BBWAA voters.
2009-01-12 12:28:58
105.   Disabled List
I love the HOF Monitor, it's one of my favorite widgets at B-Ref. Here are some scores for other recent players of note:

256 - Greg Maddux
211 - Manny Ramirez
205 - Mike Piazza
202 - Pedro Martinez
180 - Vladimir Guerrero
157 - Trevor Hoffman
146 - Gary Sheffield
131 - Edgar Martinez
122 - Jeff Kent
118 - Barry Larkin
114 - Andres Galarraga
101 - Andruw Jones
100 - Fred McGriff
93 - Kevin Brown
87 - David Ortiz
61 - Shawn Green
58 - Juan Pierre
46 - Eric Gagne
41 - Derek Lowe
41 - Jason Schmidt
30 - Rafael Furcal
29 - Eric Karros

2009-01-12 12:32:22
106.   Humma Kavula
101 Robbie Alomar scores a 193 on Bill James' Hall of Fame Monitor. 130 is considered a HOF lock.

104 131 - Edgar Martinez

Do you believe that Edgar Martinez is a Hall of Fame lock?

2009-01-12 12:32:48
107.   Fan since 59
I think one of the reasons that both Dave Parker and Tim Raines don't get more votes is their link to MLB's drug scandal in the 80s.
2009-01-12 12:35:45
108.   Disabled List
106 Not necessarily, but only because Edgar has the DH stigma to deal with. His numbers are fantastic: career 147 OPS+.
2009-01-12 12:42:02
109.   FiftyYearDodgerFan
Some years ago, my son wanted a ball autographed by Ricky and Lou Brock. I had to go to two card shows a week apart to get it for him (he was away at camp). Ricky was at the second show. I really wasn't much of a fan of his at the time. I was getting seriously annoyed because the line was moving so slowly. When I got close to the front, I discovered the reason.

Ricky made a point of talking to every kid about baseball. He asked the kid what position he played and if he had any questions about playing it. He made every kid feel special. Since then, I've been a huge fan.

2009-01-12 12:46:14
110.   Eric Stephen
I love stories like that.
2009-01-12 12:46:29
111.   silverwidow
105 Where is Pujols, A-Rod and Mariano Rivera on that list?
2009-01-12 12:48:26
112.   cargill06
Pujols and Rivera 200, A Rod 204
2009-01-12 12:48:49
113.   Eric Stephen
A-Rod - 330
Rivera - 200
Pujols - 200
2009-01-12 12:49:50
114.   Disabled List

330 - A-Rod (10th highest all-time)
200 - Pujols
200 - Mariano

There are 32 current or recently retired players over the 130 threshold.

2009-01-12 12:54:24
115.   Icaros
What is Barry Bonds's score?
2009-01-12 12:55:02
116.   Eric Stephen
2009-01-12 12:55:40
117.   Icaros

Good lord...thanks.

2009-01-12 12:55:43
118.   Disabled List
Here's the list, if anyone wants to browse it:

2009-01-12 13:05:10
119.   Eric Stephen
Pretty cool Hardball Times article about Rickey today by Jay Jaffe.

Only one man is in the top 10 in SB for both pre-30 and post-30. It is of course Rickey, but the kicker is he leads both lists!!!

2009-01-12 13:06:54
120.   regfairfield
Old Edgar deserves to get in, he was probably the fourth best hitter of the 90s. Once Raines and Blyleven drop off the ballot I can see him being the new stat guy cause.
2009-01-12 13:17:51
121.   fanerman
Edgar should get in. What a great hitter.
2009-01-12 13:22:17
122.   Jacob Burch
It does seem sort of funny how the hall seems to be so disengaged with defensive merits (see BH's comment), and yet would care so much to dismiss a DH outright for not takign the field.
2009-01-12 13:22:47
123.   Eric Stephen
I think we should keep calling him "Old Edgar," as that has an old timey feel to it like "Ol' Satch"
2009-01-12 13:35:00
124.   Jon Weisman
120 - I'll set my watch for 2023 then, or thereabouts?
2009-01-12 13:35:23
125.   Disabled List
I just took a look at the HOF tally. Jesse Orosco got one vote! Jay Bell got two, and Mo Vaughn got six. Give me a break.

Mark Grace, David Cone and Matt Williams all got below 5% and will fall off the ballot. None of them are HOFers, of course, but I thought those guys might hang around on the ballot for a couple of years. Grace especially.

2009-01-12 13:36:40
126.   Jon Weisman
73 - I haven't, in the hopes that I'll still get to the pile of 2008 films I'd still like to see. I've seen 33, but I'd say there might be 10 more. And all the January TV premiering going on is going to make that tough.
2009-01-12 13:38:36
127.   Jon Weisman
The guy in the cubicle next to me saw 236 movies last year.
2009-01-12 13:39:29
128.   Icaros

Must go on a lot of dates.

2009-01-12 13:45:05
129.   Jacob Burch
126 If TV bears you down, I may bug you for a list pre-Oscars--however partial it is :-).

Thanks for the list Craig, half of those went under my radar and I'll do my best to get them DVD'd or catch them at one of the art-houses that tend to rerun stuff around Oscar time.

2009-01-12 13:46:29
130.   trainwreck
Oregon just got a commitment from possibly the best corner in the nation, Cliff Harris. This comes off the heels of Bryce Brown, the top running back in country and a top 5 player, saying that Oregon is now tops on his list.

Nike money coming in handy these days. ; )

2009-01-12 13:47:30
131.   Kevin Lewis
I get to install a kitchen faucet tonight. I love learning how to do stuff around the house that I have never tried. My long term goal is to install new floors (laminate or hardwood) one day.
2009-01-12 13:47:31
132.   Jon Weisman
129 = I'll post something, however incomplete.
2009-01-12 13:48:10
133.   Jon Weisman

Tim Wallach, Albuququerewewe manager.

2009-01-12 13:48:39
134.   Jacob Burch
132 You have righted the sadness of Dungy's retirement, at least for a little bit.

I sort of can't believe how bummed this has made me today.

2009-01-12 13:50:50
135.   blue22
131 - My long term goal is to install new floors

The wife and I are taking that on sometime this year. We're starting with a bathroom (yes we have a carpeted bathroom - yuck) and if that goes well, we'll give the whole ground floor a go. Not so worried about installing the actual floor, it's ripping up the carpet and re-applying baseboards that I fear.

2009-01-12 13:56:22
136.   ToyCannon
I'd never vote for Edgar no matter how great a hitter he was. High probability that if he had played in the field like a baseball player he'd have been hurt all the time and would never have come close to amassing the hit totals he did. Some guys are defensive disasters who can only DH, Edgar was simply to fragile to be a baseball player.

If Barry Larkin gets in and Alan Trammel drops off the ballot, I'll be ticked.

At this point I think the sabremetric work on behalf/against certain players is backfiring. Back when nobody cared if Rice was a HOF he got little support. Then when the campaign started several years ago to make sure everyone understood how good but not great Rice was his votes started increasing. I wonder if Blyleven would have picked up more votes by now if it wasn't pointed out to the pointy head HOF voters just how good he was compared to his peers and how ignorant they are not to be voting for him. They are probably as close minded to being told why they are ignorant as I am to a DH getting into the HOF.

2009-01-12 14:00:48
137.   Humma Kavula
136 How much fielding does a player have to do before he receives the TC Seal of Approval? Is Paul Molitor a worthy addition to the HOF? Could a player take the field less often than Molitor did and still get in?
2009-01-12 14:02:26
138.   ToyCannon
Did that on Saturday. Ending up having to remove the disposal so I could lift the sink to get to the nut holding the faucet to the sink because of the shape of my sink. All in all it only took two hours after procrastinating three months because I figured something would go wrong and I'd end up calling a plumber anyway.

Tearing up carpet is easy but you will get a few tack cuts along the way. Use good gloves.

2009-01-12 14:03:25
139.   Daniel Zappala
131 That's awesome. I've picked up a lot of landscaping over the years, and my hope is to someday do floors.
2009-01-12 14:07:00
140.   El Lay Dave
135 We did the living/dining and kitchen in our house. The carpet removal was simply brute-force and went quickly, but disposing of it one roll at a time in the normal garbage can took weeks! Baseboards were very easy - nail gun helps a lot. Laying the engineered hardwood floor with adhesive onto a concrete slab was quite a bit more time-consuming. Nailing down to a sub-floor is probably a lot easier, I would imagine.
2009-01-12 14:08:06
141.   Disabled List
This snippet from Verducci today, re: Edgar and Alomar:

The next three ballots might not have a single first-ballot Hall of Famer. The best of the bunch are Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez and Fred McGriff (2010), Jeff Bagwell (2011) and Bernie Williams (2012).

Doesn't seem like he holds Alomar or Edgar or even Bagwell in very high regard. Or maybe he's one of those guys that thinks certain players shouldn't get in on the first ballot, but only subsequent times.

2009-01-12 14:09:26
142.   Kevin Lewis

As far as I can tell, it should be simple, but just getting the old faucet out will be the trick. It looks like I have quite a bit of room underneath, and my sink is a normal shape, but now I am afraid :)

2009-01-12 14:10:21
143.   BlueCrew Bruin
Have any of you ever installed kitchen cabinets? The wife and I are contemplating replacing our cabinets/countertops and wondering if that's a feasible DIY project. I'm thinking it isn't.
2009-01-12 14:11:03
144.   blue22
137 - Or alternatively, how much hitting prowess does a fulltime DH need to have displayed to warrant consideration. Edgar was awesome, but what if Pujols happened to be a fulltime DH?

How about Frank Thomas? I think he's a shoo-in, even though his glove was probably a net negative for his career.

2009-01-12 14:13:31
145.   blue22
140 - I have no doubt we'll go with the snap-and-lock floors.

I tried doing attaching baseboards once, and I literally sold the house before I got around to finishing that project. Didn't have a nail gun though.

2009-01-12 14:15:41
146.   trainwreck
I would highly suggest getting some professional to do it and definitely make sure they have good reviews.
2009-01-12 14:16:02
147.   Daniel Zappala
143 I haven't, but have neighbors who have done it. You need to be exacting with measurements and you need a couple hands to help you hold them up.
2009-01-12 14:16:09
148.   blue22
Comment found on Deadsping re: HOF results:

It's perfectly fitting. Rickey will lead off the induction, and Rice will follow him by grounding into a double play.

2009-01-12 14:16:50
149.   ToyCannon
The only hard part I encountered was getting the nut off of the old faucet. I simply couldn't do it from below so I said screw it, and removed the sink where I could get at it. The two hours is simply because I tend to stare at things when trying to figure out the next step. When the stare doesn't work, I eventually resort to action but it a last resort.

137 It is subjective, but Molitor had over 1500 games in the field. I've had this discussion many times on DT so I'll not repeat myself since I seem to be doing that a little to often lately.

2009-01-12 14:19:05
150.   Eric Stephen
That's pretty funny.

Man, all this home improvement talk makes me want to buy a house. Hopefully 2009 is the year I stop paying rent.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2009-01-12 14:20:06
151.   underdog
The same Eric Stephen who has craftily written a fine piece supporting Bull Broxton:

Well done, sir!

2009-01-12 14:23:01
152.   El Lay Dave
143 We considered tiling new counter tops ourselves, but once we saw what tile we actually like cost, we found the cost savings not significant enough compared to having a solid counter top installed.

I agree with 147 and 146 on the cabinets. My father-in-law did his - and he was in his upper 60s at the time! - but he is VERY handy. Unlike some other jobs (painting, dry wall), it can be very hard to correct your mistakes.

2009-01-12 14:23:12
153.   Eric Stephen
The check's in the mail, Underdog!
2009-01-12 14:24:14
154.   El Lay Dave
149 LOL! My wife always criticizes me for the staring (mental analysis, I call it) time.
2009-01-12 14:29:14
155.   Eric Stephen
I feel embarrassed when compared to my mom and her brothers, given the handiness of them all even in their old age.

My mom put shelving in her shed all by herself in her mid 60s, and this was after planting and tending a full garden in the front and back yards, including putting in the brick work.

One of my uncles is always working on stuff in his garage. He built a shed for the side of his house last year, and he's 65! He's currently building a swingset/playground for his two young grandchildren, and I have no doubt they will be completely safe on that thing.

Meanwhile, I let someone borrow my power drill last month, which I've had over a year, and they had to break the seal the section with the drill bits.

2009-01-12 14:29:47
156.   Kevin Lewis

Did you use any type of sealant, or did you just go with plumbers puddy?

2009-01-12 14:30:22
157.   underdog
153 - Paypal is fine. ;-)

Speaking of checks, I just got hired to write a documentary treatment, but don't expect they have much money to spend. Anyone ever done that before? Can't figure out what to charge that they'll actually be able to afford.

2009-01-12 14:32:08
158.   Eric Stephen
Free coffee for life.
2009-01-12 14:32:52
159.   trainwreck
Maybe just charge them a small percent of revenue?
2009-01-12 14:33:03
160.   Marty
Alomar had a HOF career? I have almost no recollection of him other than being a good player. I guess I wasn't paying attention.
2009-01-12 14:33:05
161.   ToyCannon
Putty on the threads.
2009-01-12 14:36:40
162.   underdog
159 - Heh. I'm better off asking for the coffee, believe me. ;-)
2009-01-12 14:37:53
163.   Bob Timmermann
Roberto Alomar hit well, hit for power, stole bases, got on base a lot, and fielded extremely well. And he played on two World Series winners.
Other than that, he didn't do much else.

Unfortunately, Alomar just stopped playing well once he got traded to the Mets, so people remember the really bad years.

2009-01-12 14:38:11
164.   trainwreck
Then ask for cat food.
2009-01-12 14:39:07
165.   ToyCannon
Roberto not Sandy. I can't believe he's been retired for 5 years. He looked like a shoo in after his incredible age 33 season but that was based on extrapolating his expected performance based on what he'd done up to that point. When he went in to the tank as fast as he did you have to wonder.
2009-01-12 14:42:11
166.   trainwreck
Someone needs to stop Kevin James from making movies.
2009-01-12 14:43:11
167.   Bob Timmermann
It's not like Roberto Alomar tanked like Andruw Jones. He just went from "REALLY good" to "meh."
2009-01-12 14:45:45
168.   Jon Weisman
2009-01-12 14:46:34
169.   ToyCannon
Lou Whitaker did most of the same things and didn't have the really bad years and yet he didn't even get a sniff from the HOF vote. They don't seem to appreciate 2nd baseman very much.
2009-01-12 14:51:12
170.   scareduck
119 - that would be Chris Jaffe. (I've made the same mistake myself.)

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