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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Is It Better to Pull a Starter Too Early Than Too Late?
2005-05-09 21:15
by Jon Weisman

Forget for the moment - if you can - the tedium of repeated pitching changes in a single game.

In general, with their 12-man staff of mostly good but not great pitchers, should the Dodgers treat the middle innings like the late innings?

Jim Tracy is pretty reliable at pulling a pitcher at the first sign of trouble in the eighth or ninth inning. Should he be that aggressive in the fifth and sixth inning?

Is it better to pull a starter too early than too late?

(The risk, of course, is that the starter would wriggle out of a jam and continue merrily on his way, while the reliever might just make things worse.)

The Dodgers may revert to 11 pitchers by the end of the month - but I've been waiting for that to happen for a while now. Right now, at 12, the bullpen seems underused. Is it possible the staff might have more value if used in machine gun fashion?

And when Eric Gagne comes back, can we see Yhency Brazoban as the lead bullet in a tight spot instead of the typical middle reliever?

You can probably glean my thoughts, but I'm interested in yours.

In fact, I also wonder whether the Dodgers should commit to a four-man rotation of Derek Lowe, Odalis Perez, Jeff Weaver and Brad Penny with a pitch count limit of 90-100, leaving as many as eight pitchers to carry the Dodgers over the final 0-80 pitches of a game. But that will never happen.

Update: Read Comment No. 3 below. I think it comes down to how you define "when possible," as Christina puts it in her third paragraph. Of course, we'd all like our starters to go as long as they can. The question is how quickly one decides it isn't viable for a starter to continue.

Tonight's game presented a rather extreme but useful example. Tie game, fifth inning, one out. Odalis Perez faces Albert Pujols with two on. He has had much trouble with Pujols, and he's thrown a lot of pitches. In the eighth inning, there's little doubt you take out Perez. Here, the obvious move seems that you keep Perez in. It would be radical to bring Brazoban in this situation. And yet Brazoban might be the correct move to make.

What's the cost? You need another reliever to get through the sixth, and someone to take Brazoban's spot in the ninth (at least until Gagne is activated). Instead of three relievers, you might need five. Of course, you have six to choose from.

Perhaps you can't do this every night. But perhaps you should do it until you can't do it. Brazoban, by the way, has pitched three innings in May, and one (Sunday) was in a 9-3 game.

2005-05-09 21:54:52
1.   Dodgers Fan in NorCal
I would trust Brazoban in that situation, but not every night. It seems Carrara can fit that role sometimes, but when both crumble, there are no major options left.

The bullpen lacks real depth, and if Tracy created a four-man rotation, fatigue would set in early, especially when the Dodgers go two or three weeks straight, and things would go from bad to worse.

Hopefully Tracy will put more faith in his starters-not Grady Little faith, but enough to get by in the fifth or sixth after a couple earned runs-and maybe the Dodgers can pick up a fifth man by summer.

2005-05-09 21:55:28
2.   chumsferd
I, for one, would love to see a 4 man rotation. I could see us doing it later, but with penny coming back from injury and Odalis's history of arm problems, now is probably not the best time. We do have 4 quality starters to do it with, though.
2005-05-09 22:10:13
3.   Christina
1 - "Tracy will put more faith in his starters" - huh? The problem he has this season has been that he's left his starters in way too long. (Though perhaps after the meltdowns of Erickson and Lowe, Tracy could have learned his lesson--he pulled Weaver before Weaver could give up the lead.)

That said, I'm not in favor of pulling the starter in the fifth, unless it's an absolute disaster, and I wouldn't really like pulling the starter in the sixth, either. We should try for six reasonable innings from our #4 and #5 pitchers (I'd up it to seven for our #1, 2, and 3 pitchers). Bringing in the bullpen in the fifth and sixth might or might not win more games for us now, but I fear that it would mean that they'd be worn out by the postseason. And I do believe that this team will be in the postseason.

In sum: Our #4 and #5 should go six innings when possible, bring in whatever combination of pitchers works best for the seventh, and of course close out with Brazoban and Gagne. The top of the rotation, obviously, has a longer range possible, from seven innings to complete games - I say let them go to seven barring complete meltdowns. Pull them at the first sign of trouble in the 8th or 9th, use judgment in the 7th (ack, did I just say that?).

2005-05-09 22:29:44
4.   Xeifrank
I think the Dodgers should start a middle reliever each game, then pinch hit for him when he comes up to bat for the first time, then bring your starter in. That would really give T.J Simers something to ride DePodesta on!! But I'd still like to see it.



2005-05-09 22:29:47
5.   Neil
I wouldn't put a 4 man rotation past DePo. I've read in more than one place that the leading contributor to pitching injuries is overuse in a single game. And that some pitchers actually feel sharper on 3 days rest. The 5 man rotation hasn't really reduced pitching injuries since it was first instituted.(By the Dodgers, no?) Of course the biggest factor in any recent downturn in injuries to pitchers, if there has indeed been a downturn, is the retirement of Tommy Lasorda.

I would love to see both Game Over the elder, and Ghame Over the younger used in less precisely defined roles. Why save our best releivers (and arguably our best pitchers period) for situations that may or may not occur in the last couple of innnings of a given game. How about using them to squash rallies mid-game, when tied, or even god-forbid when we're a run or two behind with a chance to come back. Why save these guys for what may happen in the 8th or 9th when you can use them in pressing situations earlier.

And speaking of the elder Game Over, I hope now that we're paying him Rivera level money Tracy is willing to use him for more than an innning at a time. But then again I've never understood the logic of having a "closer", and I guess my bias is obvious.

2005-05-09 22:32:36
6.   Neil
Oh and a big public thank you to bigcpa, Eric, and Brendan for the time effort they put into producing at cost shirts for total strangers. Thanks a million guys.
2005-05-09 22:38:40
7.   scareduck
Christina -- define "reasonable" in terms of earned runs allowed. Or unearned runs. Or just runs against. Or run differential (down by X runs).
2005-05-09 22:45:31
8.   bigcpa

I've had several latecomers asking about the TEAM DEPO shirts. I'll take new requests until Friday and see if we have the minimum for a new batch.

Ordering info:

2005-05-09 23:23:39
9.   kngoworld
Wow, this is a topic that I feel strongly about, although I can not get the proper words out tonight. So I will be straightforward and just say.


When thought about for a while this should answer your questions about when pitchers should be pulled and why.

2005-05-10 00:03:19
10.   dzzrtRatt
Words mean a lot. We call our bullpen pitchers "relievers," which implies that they are to be used when the valiant starter has fallen short, failed, run out of gas, and must regrettably be removed from the game, like a tired soldier "relieved" of his post. In other team sports, they put new guys in constantly, sometimes to rest starters, but also to exploit match-ups or situations. But in baseball, the default assumption is that the starter has the responsibility for the game.

This is why managers like Jim Tracy leave starters in too long. It's some kind of Victorian test of mettle. 'Let's give the boy a chance to pitch his way out of the adversity he's created. Then we'll find out what kind of stuff he's made out of, by golly.'

Aren't there alternatives that a creative mind like DePo can consider? Why can't a manager plan ahead to use three pitchers for three innings each, in a combination designed to maximize advantages? Or, why not pursue the four-man rotation as Jon suggests, and keep eight pitchers in a bullpen that will be worked constantly? Why not designate Yhency or Gagne in a new role as pre-9th inning closers, who are brought in to A) come in at the maximum moment of danger to protect the lead, such as a bases-loaded situation; or B) to be deployed not necessarily in the 9th inning, but in whichever late inning it falls that the opposing team's best hitters are coming to bat.

What stands in the way of this is the notion that certain pitchers "own" certain parts of a game. If you designate someone as the closer, and then don't use them in the 9th inning to close out a close game, they are taught to feel slighted. Ditto a starter who is showing no signs of fatigue. If a manager came out to get a guy who's pitching a shutout in the fifth inning because he wants a different matchup, most starters would have a tantrum. Why? Who's running the team?

I think a lot of the way in which pitchers are used is based on tradition and Pavlovian conditioning. The Dodgers are the perfect team to think anew about pitching.

2005-05-10 00:05:25
11.   LAT
The approach entertained by Jon in tonight's article seems to be that adopted most nights by Filepe Alou. Excluding tonight (Tomko complete game) Alou almost always uses at least six pitchers. It seems like over the long haul the upside of this approach is limited.

First, I bet that at least half the time the reliever doesn't do much better than the starter. This also has the effect of undermining the starting rotations confidence.

Second, even if there is no doubt the starter is done, you have to find the right reliever for the spot that night. Especially, if like Alou, you use your reliever on a spot basis so often. ,i.e. bring Eyre in to face one batter, then Herges to face another and then Tyler Walker for a third and its only the sixth inning. Alou, for better or worse, never seems to care if a reliever is going well. Doesn't matter how they are pitching just bring them in based on the match-up. Thus, even if Herges were doing great (I know, I know but this is a hyopthetical) Alou would still replace him if he were not comfortable with the match-up. Thus figuring out who to use is only half the battle, when you have used everyone in your bullpen everyday for the last week and you have to figure out whether they are too tired.

Third, when you start using the bullpen liberally, you require two or three pitchers to warm up everytime, even if they ultimitaly don't go in. Further taxing the pen.

Finally, we all know how much a game can change from inning to inning, like most things in life, if you shot your wad too early your done.

This is too rambling and its late, Tracy has made some mistakes leaving pitchers in too long, but on balance (over the years) he generally makes the right call and when we need it most we have lots of fresh, strong arms to choose from.

2005-05-10 00:17:47
12.   Bob Timmermann
Tonight, Cleveland manager Eric Wedge (or his replacement since he got ejected) pulled starter Kevin Millwood after 8 innings of 1-hit, shutout ball and 99 pitches. Cleveland still won 3-0.

From the game story, it was Millwood who asked to come out.

In other news, did anyone notice that the Padres are now tied for second?

2005-05-10 02:31:26
13.   GoBears
Uninspiring game at the Big A tonight, unless you're a Millwood fan - he owned the Angels. And I'm now Koo-Koo for Coco Crisp. But that's neither here nor there.

I sympathize with Jon's thinking here. And with other posters who feel that teams do themselves a disservice by straitjacketing pitchers into defined roles. Starters have never liked to leave games (complete games used to be quite normal, not rare exceptions, no matter what the score). But thank Tony LaRussa for creating THE CLOSER, as well as the SETUP MAN, and when he could, THE 7TH INNING GUY. Probably the LOOGY as well. This is now Gospel. In SD, where Bochy is as much an automoton as anyone, it's Linebrink-Otsuka-Hoffman, like clockwork. Agents love it this way. The quite logical idea to bring your best reliever in in the highest leverage situation died with Goose Gossage, and it's also why Goose isn't in the HoF (at least not yet). Saves and win credits determine managerial decisions. Stupid, but true. Tracy can still learn to pull his starters earlier (as long as he gives them the requisite 5 to be in a position to win) but if he were to start bringing in Gagne to put out fires (remember when we called them "firemen?") in the 7th, Scott Boras and Bill Plascke would team up to have him killed (and then insulted in the Times).

2005-05-10 04:03:06
14.   Neil
Apropos of Larussa and closers, I really liked this article at THT. And the three parts preceeding it.

2005-05-10 04:30:29
15.   Langhorne
The fact that a couple of our starters have health questions together with the fact that half our bullpen are very young and/or largely unproven makes me think that a four man rotation is very risky. And I don't think any of our starters except Erickson have been around long enough to have ever worked regularly on three days rest. I'm not saying it's impossible but it does seem highly unlikely.

However, I love the idea of using Yhency as a smokejumper once Gagne is back. If there comes a point in the game where a real fire needs to be put out let Yhency do it. Why not use your best, or second best, arm when you need it most? If you don't need him then you still have him for the eighth. We could use Gagne the same way if he were up for it. But if it were tomorrow and Tracy used Yhency in the sixth to stop a rally and another reliever blew a save in the ninth I think Tracy would be crucified. If we wait until Gagne is back we have the luxury of two stoppers to use as we wish.

Along the same lines, I don't think it would be disasterous to bring in a pitcher who is due to start a couple days later to pitch to a couple of batters. In other words, last night in the fifth you bring in Penny to pitch to Pujols. Use your best arms when you need them most. For the record, I doubt I would have pulled Perez then. But Odalis should not have thrown him anything close to the plate. I'd take my chances with the bases loaded and anybody who isn't Albert Pujols hitting with one out.

2005-05-10 05:23:45
16.   Eric Enders
In general, I don't think removing your starter in the fifth inning is a good idea.

However, I've never been less surprised by a home run than I was by Pujols' second one last night. It just seemed extremely obvious, based on past confrontations and also the body language of both players, that Pujols was going to take Odalis deep there.

That's almost a situation where I'd do something silly like bring in a reliever to pitch to Pujols while stashing Perez in left field. Odalis had no chance against Pujols whatsoever.

2005-05-10 07:47:15
17.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I'm all for a return to the old "fireman" model of relief pitching, but, is it at all likely that will happen? Even if DePo would be willing to go to that model, and I think he would be, since I believe statheads for a while have been griping about this, it seems clear to me that DePo generally allows Tracy to run the team as he sees fit, although he consults with him far less on personnel moves (if at all) than did Evans.

Tracy has proved willing to pitch Gagne multiple innings, and to bring him in non-save situations (i.e. tie games late at home), but I don't recall a single example of him using Gagne as a fireman. I like Langhorne's suggestion of using Ghame Over as a fireman, which perhaps Tracy can be persuaded to do, but even this might be a bit too much out-of-the-box for Trace.

Although I'm a big supporter of Tracy, the sort of revival of the fireman or the four-man rotation being proposed by Jon and by posters in this thread is not the sort of thing that plays to Tracy's strengths. Tracy's very good at massaging egos, developing kids (with the singular exception of his mishandling of Choi IMO), and he's competent with bullpen management within the confines of LaRussa style specialization, but I think we're expecting too much of him to think that he'll go to a four-man rotation or revive the fireman.


2005-05-10 08:05:45
18.   Im So Blue
The LA Times didn't write a story about it (yet?), but in the sidebar accompanying Steve Henson's article on yesterday's game (on the front page of the Sports section, above the fold, no less!) there's a chart comparing the 2005 stats of the key players the Dodgers have acquired vs. the guys who left/got traded.

The new batters on the list: Kent, Drew, Phillips, Valentin, Ledee, Choi
with 515 AB, 39 2B, 21 HR, 94 RBI, .285 AVG, .393 OB%, .495 SLG

Old batters: Beltre, LoDuca, Finley, Green, Cora, Hernandez
with 568 AB, 20 2B, 16 HR, 80 RBI, .246 AVG, .293 OB%, .373 SLG

New pitchers: Lowe, Erickson, Wunsch, Brazoban
with 97 IP, 90 H, 38 ER, 30 BB, 55 K, 4-6 W-L, 3.53 ERA

Old pitchers: Ishii, Lima, Nomo, Mota
with 102 IP, 102 H, 66 ER, 52 BB, 56 K, 2-9 W-L, 5.82 ERA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The improvement in OPS is 222 points, .888 vs .666. I looked up the walks, and the new guys have 87 BB vs. 37 BB for the old guys.

As for the pitchers, they chose to include Wunsch, but not Schmoll, Carlyle or Houlton (Their combined ERA is 6.25 with 36 IP).

2005-05-10 08:37:41
19.   the OZ
RE: SD being in second place:

It's a bit infuriating when you look at their last 10 or so games:

Home vs COL:
Three one-run wins, 5-4, 2-1, 8-7

W 8-3, 5-4, 6-5, L15-5

Last night at CIN:
W6-5 in 13 innings; Wagner and Graves blow a 4-run lead in the ninth. Hopefully this ends any notion that Graves should pitch in high-leverage situations ever again.

Of their last seven wins, six have been by one run. They could easily be in fourth place.

2005-05-10 08:44:10
20.   JJoeScott
Maybe my memory is faulty (OK, it is faulty!) but it seems that Tommy used to do the bring-in-your-better-reliever-early frequently. (Or maybe I'm just confusing that with Niedenfueur going 2+ innings often.)

Davey Johnson, of course, used to pull the move-the-pitcher-to-LF trick in the late innings. And I had that same thought about Odalis yesterday. Probably would have worked, too, even if, say, Sanchez walks Pujols (come on Odalis, how hard is it to throw ball four!!), he still can get Rolen out. Then Odalis comes back. I might do that in Strat some time, now that I'm thinking about it more.

2005-05-10 08:56:04
21.   Sam DC
Did Carrie Bradshaw write the first four lines of this post?
2005-05-10 09:02:19
22.   Steve
If Weaver and Perez keep running up three-ball counts, none of this is going to matter.
2005-05-10 09:04:06
23.   Jon Weisman
There's no (un)clever pun there, Sam, so I don't think she did. I guess some might suggest that it was Jim Tracy.
2005-05-10 09:58:10
24.   Jacob L
The other part of the equation, which Jon alluded to in the post, but I haven't seen discussed much in the comments, is that at least a couple of our current bullpen arms are likely to spend the better part of the year in Las Vegas. There'd be no harm to the 2005 Dodgers if they were overworked right now. Question is whether that would be fair to the pitchers involved or somehow hamper their development such that the Dodgers suffered the consequences in future years. In any event, with the current roster make-up there's no reason to avoid pulling a starter early if he's struggling. If we simply won't manage that way, lets lose a pitcher, and add a bat.

Its kind of the opposite of the old Las Vegas tourism slogan - "I'll sleep when I'm at work."

2005-05-10 10:00:15
25.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
"However, I love the idea of using Yhency as a smokejumper once Gagne is back."

Langhorne, this is brilliant. Not as much the concept as the marketing.
If Tracy explained Yhency's new role using exactly that word - smokejumper - fans would instantly understand what he was getting at in using a top-notch relief pitcher in the middle innings.

2005-05-10 10:16:55
26.   Jon Weisman
I kind of like that "smokejumper" thing too. If we could get someone to make a movie of Norman Maclean's "Young Men and Fire," followed by another Yhency T-shirt, we'd be in business.
2005-05-10 10:24:13
27.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Yhency doesn't have to die though, right?
2005-05-10 10:27:29
28.   Jon Weisman
No, he can hide within the ring of fire and survive. That's the good part.
2005-05-10 11:00:37
29.   Rick A
Re: #10

Substitution patterns that mirror those of other major sports (NBA, NFL, NHL?) is all well and good in theory. Except in baseball, once you've made the substitution, you don't get to rotate guys in and out of the lineup/bullpen.

Stashing OP in left field against Pujols might save you that 3 run homer. But what does that do exactly? Odds are that Pujols is still gonna hit that homer, and you're left with a starting pitcher who knows that the manager's confidence in him is shot. And no pitcher is going to want to play for the Dodgers if the manager is gonna run him off the rubber everytime the boogey-man comes to bat.

We've heard "The Mantra" more than once:
"Tracy puts his players in position to succeed." But in certain situations, the chance of success is going to be slight, not because of any managerial decision, but because the opposition's skill is so great. That doesn't mean that you shrug it off and assume that the games over in the fifth, but if OP is our #2/3 guy, then you've got to go with him.

2005-05-10 11:17:50
30.   FirstMohican
Re: 29

So don't make the best managerial decision because it might hurt someone's feelings and that might in turn damage their confidence and might lose you some games later on?

If the Dodgers had scored 5 runs last night I don't think many people would have a problem with Odalis' use.

2005-05-10 11:27:35
31.   Rick A
Re: 30
No, not just because it would "hurt someone's feelings" though that could be a side effect. But because the odds of success don't improve all that much. Does anyone here truly believe that if we only put in Wunsch, Shmoll, Yhency, or Carrara that they would have struck Pujols out? Or got him to hit into a DP? I'm not saying that Tracy made the right call, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

"If the Dodgers had scored 5 runs last night I don't think many people would have a problem with Odalis' use."

I concur.

2005-05-10 11:29:31
32.   Jon Weisman
Well, you're right about that. For that matter, if the Dodgers score 10 runs tonight, I doubt people will have a problem with Scott Erickson's use. That's not really the point, is it? The whole premise of the discussion is something situational.
2005-05-10 11:32:50
33.   Rick A
"The whole premise of the discussion is something situational."

Yup, and it is readily apparent that Tracy lives by the dictum "Go with the horse that brung ya."

2005-05-10 11:42:40
34.   DepoBall
I think the usage of Yhency after Gagne's return is key; I'd like to see it become routine to bring him in in the 6th inning when the starter runs out of gas. You don't have to remove starters in the 5th to get more out of our bullpen. Conversely if you're not going to touch the starter til the 7th as a matter of policy why waste the roster spot on another pitcher? As far as hurting your starting rotation's confidence with a quick hook (or the left-field trick) I say deal with it pitcher, after the allstar break. The players should know where they stand with the Mgr by then, and you can't lose anymore close ones in the name of building character or trust, at that point in the season.

I don't think you have to go to an extreme to improve the bullpen/roster usage, just fine-tuning a bit...

2005-05-10 11:45:11
35.   Rick A
But what happens when the batter bloops the pitch into left, whaddaya do then, huh? Huh!?
2005-05-10 11:46:04
36.   DepoBall
Tracy gets plaschke'd and simer'ed of course
2005-05-10 11:50:13
37.   Rick A
2005-05-10 13:54:28
38.   aloofman
I'm not an advocate of Alou's revolving-door bullpen at all. I think in the last couple years, that's a bigger factor in the Giants' relief troubles than their lack of a star closer. My recollection of last season is that the Dodger starters really struggled at times and the bullpen kept them in games so that many miracle comebacks were possible. Tracy probably hopes to have a fresher-than-average bullpen late in the season again.

There have been several games recently where the Dodger starter has pitched into the later innings, having allowed three runs or less. (I refuse to call this a "quality start," which I think should be at least six innings and an ERA of less than 3.00 in that game.) It isn't unreasonable to expect the Dodger lineup to score more than two runs through seven innings. The starters are pitching well enough to win these days, but not getting enough run support in many of these games.

I think Tracy is also saving the bullpen. There are going to be many times -- during the heat of summer and in the last six weeks -- where the starter will pitch well but will be tired by the sixth inning, and Tracy will need to use more of the bullpen even on days when the starter performs well.

On the other hand, at least one of these relievers will go down to the minors when Gagne returns, so it might not be necessary to save that particular arm. And Alvarez's arm has not been taxed in the first five weeks, so he should be fresher. You could argue that under those circumstances, it makes sense to use the pen a little more. I also like the way Tracy used Alvarez for long relief several times last season. He should face more righties and save Wunsch as the lefty specialist.

As far as the situational stuff, in my opinion, Tracy goofs more often by not pulling the pitcher for a pinch hitter than he does in leaving the starter in until he gets shelled. There have been several times in the sixth and seventh innings when I thought Tracy shouldn't bat the pitcher and he did it anyway. I think that has more of an outcome on the game than leaving the pitcher in for a few too many batters.

2005-05-10 14:20:01
39.   LetsGoDodgers
The problem with pulling a starter before recording his 15th out is you lock him out of getting the victory (he's inelligible), something every pitcher looks forward to.

If you pull the starter at the first sign of trouble, you are telling him, "Don't make too many mistakes, or you'll get yanked. That is, unless we can't score today. Then, you need to pitch mistake-free." This is a bad approach on many levels.

Letting a pitcher work out of his own problems is a psychological effect that I think cannot be overcome. You'd have a hard time selling it to starters.

That being said, I'd rather see the 7 guys in the bullpen get used day-in, day-out for the last 7-9 outs of the game (assuming it isn't a blowout in either direction). There are some good arms in the 'pen (some great ones as well, and the kingfish is returning soon) and I'm sick and tired of seeing this waste of the entire 25-man roster.

2005-05-10 15:02:46
40.   Langhorne
Gold Star,

I was thinking of marketing at least to the degree that you'd have to convince people that this is a good use of a top reliever. But the Dodgers have had such success with the whole Gagne phenomenon I would think they'd be drooling to recreate it. So picture this:

Sixth inning, two on, one out. Tracy goes out to the mound. The starting pitcher walks off and Trace is standing there holding the ball when blaring out of the stadium sound system comes the opening base line from "Smoke on the Water" as the bullpen gates open. Yhency comes in, strikes out the side and the ovation dies out as fans rush to buy every shouvenir they can find.

2005-05-10 15:06:16
41.   Icaros
Nice, Langhorne.
2005-05-10 16:04:59
42.   Jim Hitchcock
Great idea, Langhorne. And when the other side brings in theirs, they `Burn'.
2005-05-10 16:05:43
43.   Jim Hitchcock
Whoops, play `Burn'.

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