man, i HATE plinko. if i was ever on the price is right, that's the absolute last game i would want to play, because the amount of money you win is determined by the randomness of the plinko board, and not so much by your skill. your skill gets you more chips, but the chips will still fall where they may.

I was surprised to learn from such a definitive source that Plinko was so celebrated and enjoyed as well. But in terms of unfairness: What about the Showcase Showdown?

I can remember when The Price is Right came on the air and the smart people knew to guess 2 as the first digit in the four-digit price of a car.

I always liked the guy/gal that would bid $1 in the beginning of the show :)

I also like the game where the little guy yodelled while climbing a mountain.

#3 : http://gscentral.net/cliff.htm

Yeah, that yodeler was all right.

Random Dodger game callback

May 18, 1945

Despite playing in a season where offense was down due to World War II personnel shortages and in a stadium where the lighting would have been considered primitive by today's standards, a crowd of 31,334 at Ebbets Field saw the Dodgers run their record to 17-7 with a 15-12 night game win over the Cubs. Dodgers left fielder Luis Olmo drove in seven runs with a grand slam and a bases-loaded triple. Goody Rosen and Bill Hart also contributed home runs for the Dodgers.

Dodgers starter Roy Pfund gave up four runs in the first, but Olmo tied the game up with his grand slam in the bottom of the inning. Cubs starter Paul Erickson allowed the first Dodgers to reach and was relieved by Ray Prim, whom Olmo greeted with a home run. Olmo would bat against Prim again in the sixth with the bases loaded and tripled in three to give the Dodgers a 9-6 lead for reliever Ben Chapman, who held on for the win with some help from Vic Lombardi in the ninth inning.

After suffering through a poor 1944 season when the team was decimated by losses to the military, the 1945 Dodgers were able to piece together a respectable team from some rising stars and some veterans who got an unexpected chance to shine with the stars off serving Uncle Sam.

The Dodgers had an impressive offense despite hitting just 57 home runs. Second baseman Eddie Stanky led the league in walks with 148 and runs scored with 128. Olmo led the league in triples with 13. Right fielder Dixie Walker led in RBIs with 124. Olmo drove in 110. Four Dodgers scored over 100 runs. Besides Stanky, center fielder Rosen scored 126 runs, first baseman Augie Galan scored 114 and Walker scored 102 times.

Indicative of the times, many of the starters lost their jobs once the regulars came back from the war. Rosen, who failed in a tryout in the late 1930s with the Dodgers, was out of baseball after a handful of games in 1946. Olmo would not return to the Dodgers until 1949 and only as a reserve. Shortstop Eddie Basinski played one more year in 1947 for Pittsburgh. Backup shortstop Tommy Brown was just 17 years old and in his SECOND year with the team. The Dodgers used seven different catchers for the year. The team committed an astonishing 230 errors, 60 by shortstops and 50 by third basemen.

Winning pitcher Chapman would be traded to Philadelphia on June 15. Chapman eventually became the manager of the Phillies and would later earn scorn from Dodger fans for his vicious race-baiting of Jackie Robinson in the 1947 season.

While the Cubs had a bad day on May 18, 1945, they turned in a 26-6 August and won the National League pennant with a 98-56 record. The Dodgers finished 87-67, 11 games out and in third place.

Thanks to the NY Times, Chicago Tribune, BaseballReference.com and Retrosheet

The yodeler was one of my favorites, too. That was one of the only games where I always rooted for the person to lose because I wanted to see him fall of the edge of the cliff.

I would also root against any contestant who I found particularly annoying.

I always HATED The Price is Right. Only gameshow I've ever liked really was Jeopardy.
By the way, someone I know very slightly is on, and leading the tournament of Champions this week. They are fighting over the right ot play Ken Jennings for 2 million.

Well I guess Marty is just too brilliant for The Price is Right.

He probably refuses to have his pet spayed or neutered as well.

i love jeopardy! too. i'm actually auditioning next week, on a whim, but i don't think i'll get on the show.

Oh, I didn't mean to come off as a snob. Sorry. I would have been lousy as a jeopardy contestant.

re #2, the showcase showdowns are unfair because one is always better than the other, but at least you can win by being better than the other person. and if you do win, then it doesn't really matter what the other person's showcase was.

Just teasing you, Marty.

My friends tried to get on the Price is Right last year, and one of the interview questions they ask is "what's your favorite game besides Plinko?" You know what I miss about the Price is Right? I miss the mid-jump or mid-scream freeze frame whenever a contestant would win something. That was really the "heart and soul" of the game...Bob Barker's skinny microphone is a close second.

Remember when Suffering Bruin was on Jeopardy? He really blew it in the final round.

To appease Bob Barker, I had my cat spayed AND neutered! She was in all the veterinary journals.

Actually, I got her from a shelter and she came without all the original factory equipment. They wouldn't have let me take her home if she did.

12 - Sorry, what I meant was the spin of the wheel that qualified you to get to the Showcase Showdown.

When I was in Kindergaten, I missed most of a week of school because my mother took me out so we could watch a friend of hers on Password. She stayed on the show for five days. The lost school time has no doubt kept me from major success, but it was worth it.

The password is "Birds"

Felix Unger: Aristophanes!

I don't know if this was mentioned in another thread, but does anybody find it odd that Charley Steiner is the narrator on the new Dodgers DVD?

http://tinyurl.com/8fby5

Jim Tracy is going to do one of those online sessions on Friday. What in the world would I ask him?

That Odd Couple episode on Password is an unimpeachable classic.

"Jim Tracy is going to do one of those online sessions on Friday."

You mean, where the Dodger manager reminisces about his favorite game show memories? There are hundreds of great questions you could ask.

Jeff Weaver is pitching tonight and the Over/Under on his innings pitched has been set at 6 1/3. Let the wagering begin.

I'll take famous Dodger pitchers for a thousand Alex.

vr

Xei

The Password is "bullpen."

Don't talk to me about Alan Ludden!

Every so often Don Sutton would show up on The Match Game.

Where is the info on the J.Tracy online thingy?

Alex: He made famous the knuckle curve.

vr

Xei

Who is Burt Hooton?

It's on the Dodger website. Do we know for sure that it's Repko getting axed today? I'm holding out hope, and refuse to believe it until it actually happens, and even then I'm just going to call Grabowski "Repko"

alex: that is correct, bob. choose a category.

Angels and Indians are already through six innings. Colon trails Westbrook, 1-0.

My favorite part of the Price is Right is where Bob Barker makes the showcase models have sex with him if they want to stay on the show. Oops that was the E True Hollywood Story on the Price is Right.

It's going to be weird reading Jim Tracy's answering of questions with more questions.

I take the over on Weaver.

Used to work with a guy who won $25k on Jeopardy.

To this day, my former co-worker has an irrational, and unreasonable jealousy toward Ken Jennings that is truly frightening.

Seems like with all that can go wrong for a starting pitcher, these over/unders run a little high. What was the over/under on Johan Santana last night?

Does your former co-worker have a list of names like Bob Timmermann does?

Under.

Jon, I think Bob's list has only Russ Ortiz's name on it, but its on there many many times.

The Angels game is likely to end before the Dodgers start at 12:10. They're in the 8th and it's 1-0 Cleveland.

The teams have combined to put 10 runners on base.

But it's not how many runners you put on base, it's how many you get in scoring position.

i think kirk rueter's on bob's list. or if he's not he deserves to be.

Leaving for the game now. For anyone else going via the 10 East, apparently there is terrible traffic due to some event at the convention center. You may want to consider an another route.

Check out the batting averages of the Angels nine starters today.

.250
.247
.225
.309
.203
.236
.218
.180
.227

My conclusion is that the Angels have a team full of Grabowskis. Vlady sure needs some help! No surprise they are being shutout through 8 innings. Colon pitched well for three days rest.

vr

Xei

The event is a Computer gamers convention. It is apparently a big deal with lots of attendees.

Hell, Kirk Rueter on MY list along with Grissom who is, or at least used to be, a Dodger killer (and that includes when he played for the Dodgers.)

LA Traffic for those of you going to the game.

http://www.sigalert.com/map.asp?Region=Greater+Los+Angeles

vr

Xei

Russ Ortiz is pitching today!

Other guys on the list include:
Kirk Rueter
Craig Counsell
Quentin McCracken
Andy Pettite (facing Ortiz today)

Emeritus members:
Tom Goodwin
Shawon Dunston

Does your co-worker have a list of names like Bob Timmerman does?

Too afraid to ask, although he prefaced every reference to Jennings by asking for the category "Lucky,greedy b*st*rd who ruined it for everyone."

How much did Cleveland pay the Catcher Formerly Known As Victor Martinez? Imagine batting Dave Ross cleanup.

Alex Cora's OPS -- .531

In LA, though, the wounds of the Lo Duca trade are still fresh, and Dodger fans' lingering distrust of Paul DePodesta affects the reputations of players like Choi and Brad Penny. Old-line manager Jim Tracy, reluctant to change his stubborn ways, might be served by remembering an ancient Chinese proverb: "Jade requires chiselling before becoming a gem."

Source: http://baseballtonight.blogspot.com/

vr

Xei

ps - someone tell that to Jim Tracy during his online chat. :)

Great site, Xeifrank.
Click on the red diamond, in the middle of nowhere in the upper right.
"Traffic Collision - Ambulance Responding 11:02 AM
Civi Mc vs Forestry Construction Bull Dozer"
The 'dozer won big, I'll bet.

Adam Kennedy OPS -- .472. Good chance of the "surprise" bunt here.

what's so bad about andy pettitte?

Wedge pulling a Tracy in the Indian/Angel game. Only Bob Wickman can save him now.

Andy Pettite was an annoying Yankee pitcher who was always made out to be a much better pitcher than I think he really is just because he pitched for the Yankees.

And I don't like his chin.

KABOOM!

Bob Wickman -- have a seat. It's not a save situation anymore.

LAA about to take the lead in the top of the 9th.

vr

Xei

Come on Finley. Knock it out of the park. Wedge doesn't care -- he's trying to get fired.

So will Shields come in to close it out?
(Not watching/listening to game)

vr

Xei

Yes sir

Shields up Captain!

One to go -- finish them so we can dance on Wedge's grave

Steve is branching out into other "Fire (Insert Manager Name)" blogs

Commence dancing. What an idiot -- the average manager appears to have the brain of a small goat.

Suddenly, Milton Bradley looks justified for telling Wedge to get bent.

Note to Jim Tracy:

Please try to get an early lead against the Angels. Bullpen won't cough up lead easily.

the average manager has the brain of a small goat

Pretty insulting to a small goat to be compared to Eric Wedge, or Clint Hurdle.

So what's our lineup look like today?

1. Izzy
2. Choi
3. Drew
4. Bradley
5. Kent
6. Ledee
7. Perez
8. Phillips
9. Waiver

?????

vr

Xei

Waiver shall be reserved for Scott Erickson, we hope.

Edwards at third. Bako Catching.

News flash: Grabowski not listed among reserves.

GRABOWSKI'S GONE!!!!!!!

PARTY AT MY HOUSE! SOUTHWEST IS PRETTY CHEAP! (Dances around the room)

Not listed? Where's the list you speak of oh happy one.

vr

Xei

... (Kind of a) newbie here at DT; I've posted only a couple times. Got a question for the rest of you: I'm at work on a computer without speakers. What would be the best place to get play-by-play updates on the game? I've been to Yahoo, but I'm sure there's a better option.

Yeah, I hear parties in Utah really go off.

Well, yeah, and it would be non-alcoholic. And the kids would probably get in the way. Come to think of it, simply hold your own.

JT -- www.mlb.com's gameday is the best and quickest

And Xei, that list is on Gameday

Thanks, Steve.

In other news, the White Sox manage to run themselves out of yet another inning. Pablo Ozuna and Scott Podsednik both caught stealing.

Final line: 3 batters faced, 2 hits, 0 left on base.

My question is when the "closers" in this league are Dan Kolb and Jose Mesa, why anyone is surprised when they explode with such regularity?

JT - just follow the link in my post at the top.

#76: Click on "Lineups and Bench" on the mlb.com Gamecast. A very large, left-hander, who likes to watch strike three and then get angry, is not listed.

#75: Frontier Airlines has cheap flights to Utah.. I'm on my way.

Reds are down 4-2 against the Mets. With runners at first and second and two outs in the top of the Sixth, Reds Mgr Dave Miley lets Eric Milton bat. Then, he actually gets a single, then Floyd throws out D'Angelo Jiminez at home to end the inning. Ouch.

JT -- mlb.com's gameday has a lot of info and detail. Whether the pitches actually were thrown where the little map plots them, I don't know. But it's fun to watch. (I do know that everytime a batter swings and misses or fouls or hits, the ball is plotted in the strike zone so clearly the total picture is something short of reality, but not sure exactly how much.)

As much as I am going to miss screaming out "The Dude", when Grabs made an appearance, I am happy to see him go. Recently I had resorted to screaming "The Dud."

Wouldn't you force the issue against Ryan Drese?

You wouldn't?

Then Milton immediately starts giving up hits and (so far) another run in the bottom sixth.

This post is a little late, now that Grabowski's gone, but here it is anyway. I never did understand the fascination with having Grabs pinch hit. The company line was that he made the most appearances as a PH in 04, but he wasn't very good at it. Or at defense.

Good to hear that they kept Repko instead.

Pinch hitting stats for 2004:

PLAYER----- AB R H 2B HR RBI BB BA OBP SLG OPS
Jas Grabowski 69 5 12 5 01 05 10 .174 .278 .290 .568
Robin Ventura 48 7 13 0 03 14 08 .271 .368 .458 .827
Olmedo Saenz 48 6 15 1 03 13 04 .313 .345 .521 .866

#79: Ok, cancelled my flight. I'll have to crack open a cold one in celebration in Colorado Springs.

i've seen a few strikes outside the zone on gameday.

85 -- wow. That's cosmic justice. I notice the Mets are now up 5-2 and Milton is blowing up. I'm beginning to think that rodents could manage major league teams.

Dave Miley, welcome to the unemployment line.

To close the loop, one out, bottom six, two runs in, two still on base, and Milton is out of the game.

Meanwhile, Jose Mesa giveth, and Ryan Dempster about to taketh away. Leadoff double to (wait for it) Tike Redman.

In other news, allowing six runs in the eighth inning last night was enough to get Jim Crowell DFA'ed by the Marlins. They have called up 29-year-old third baseman Joe Dillon, who has 13 home runs in 39 games for the Isotopes this season.

Who's our new emergency catcher going to be then? Oh the humanity!

vr

Xei

Don't the Isotopes have a mascot named Dancin' Homer?

Lloyd McClendon goes for a bunt -- runner forced at third. Then the Cubs commit an error to load the bases.

So, do you think anyone is going to claim Grabowski off waivers?

Well, if a team needs to hit Tike Redman third...

He'll become the Giants' new first baseman and hit 35 HRs this season.

#100 - The Home for Ailing Dodgers in Pittsburgh might be a nice place. Ross and Ward speak highly of it.

Vinny just reported that A Perez is back, and now Grabs is going on the DL with a "nerve impingement on his shoulder"

Blast.

Vinny claims Grabowski sent down due to a "nerve inpinchment", not general suckitude.

And Jack Wilson, hitting .179 and batting second in Dancin' Lloyd McClendon's lineup, grounds into a double play to end the game. On the first pitch. The ineptitude is stunning sometimes.

According to Vin, Grabs has had a shoulder nerve problem and will go on the DL... LOL. Thats funny. I've always thought that teams bent the rules by utilizing the DL. Obviously the case here.

Hate to pile on, but giving up a pinch single to Grabowski was probably enough for the Fighting Fish to DFA Crowell.

Sad to say, but Grabowski could be productive if he could play regularly somewhere, but he's totally miscast as a pinchhitter.

105 - I was just gonna say, if this were the NBA, Grabowski would be put on injured reserve due to "back spasms."

a "nerve impingement" according to Vin.
Thats what the matter with Grabowski is so he is on the DL. Yuck.

Speaking of bad managerial moves, this past Sunday I watched Dusty Baker in the first inning ask Neifi Perez to bunt Corey Patterson over to third w/ no one out. If that wasnt bad enough, he bunted at the first 2 pitches for strikes to Perez in an 0-2 hole.

So what does he do 0-2? Well he tries to bunt again - foul ball and strikeout. No run scores.

Whee!

Great to get out of the 1st without damage.

Sorry to get to the Grabowski going away party a little late but:

WOOOOHOOOOOOO

What a convenient little nerve impingement.

I believe it's the trainer's job to injure players in this situation.

i'm sorry guys. it's all my fault, but i think i fixed it. i have both kent and drew in a couple fantasy leagues, and yesterday i benched kent, so he started hitting. today i benched drew. voila, a double! i should've thought of this earlier. i finally benched eric chavez the last couple of games, too. it's worked wonders.

Thank you for not walking Encarnacion.

Thank you Mike Lowell for bunting.

why would he bunt?? he's not even fast.

Steve -

Is DL'ing Grabowski what your most recent FJT post is about? Cuz usually I'm right there with ya on these odd, non-sequitor posts. But this one - I'm stumped.

Ah, that's the genius of it, Vishal.

That's a lesson why you don't bunt.

That can not feel good.

we didn't know grabowski was DL'ed at first; we thought maybe he was DFA'd

Now Lowell's out of the game. WTF?

hahah, did lowell pull something trying to beat out his bunt?!

there's a lesson to be learned, kids.

? Did Lowell bunt on one of his fingers or something ?

No, he got hit in the nose by a pop up.

Lowell got plinko'ed on the nose by Bradley's foul pop up.

nerve impingement? Sounds like general soreness to me.

Does this mean that Joe Dillon will be hitting today's game winning HR?

IBB to the fearsome Gabor.

Good.. I like my chances with Weaver over Bako here. Thanks Jack.

Joe McDonnell said they used to call Mike Marshall "General Soreness". Funny.

And that's the last reference to Joe McDonnell you will ever hear from me.

Don't know that I'd walk Bako to pitch to Weaver.

Why are they walking the weaker hitter intentionally to get to the stronger hitter?

Good first two innings -- almost 40 pitches.

That's the dead parrot sketch from Monty Python -- with Grabowski in the role of the parrot.

Wow, that was a very stupid 0-2 pitch (the fastball Weaver fouled off)

At least we get the top of the order leading off the third.

Unfortunately Grabs may only be pining for the fjords.

I guess McKeon's smart after all. At least Cesar leads off the third.

#135 - Damn, I didn't get the implied accent. My bad.

Keep running Beckett's pitch count up. The key to today's game will be getting into the Marlins' pen so Tracy can PH Saenz for Choi.

I always get the feeling that the wheels are about to come off in the third after a perfect first couple of innings. For some reason, the bottom third of the opposition always seems to get the better of our starters at this point.

So a team that has an obsession with bunting lets the pitcher swing away?

Seven groundouts, a popout and a flyout for Weaver.

I for one, am glad to be out of their half of the third. I'll take an over on 7 and 2/3 innings for Weaver at this point.

You can't stop Izturis, you can only hope to contain him.

Nice AB by Choi, regardless of result.

I really despise Jim Tracy.

gh - Tracy does it again.

Well, saw that coming once the count went full.

Man I wish Cesar would try and steal every time he gets on base. Then we'd win every game.
(and yes i know it was a hit and run that Choi missed but why in the first place)

This really has to stop. HE CANNOT STEAL BASES WORTH A DAMN!

I mean half the battle is making Beckett throw 20 pitches an inning, and we just hand them an out. So dumb.

Cool now Kent can bat with one on instead of two and two outs instead of one. Superb. Way to put our players in a position to succeed.

I don't mind that call.. Haven't seen Choi strikeout much lately.

Padres up already. Somebody cool them off please.

If Tracy hit and ran with Choi, who strikes out everytime he doesn't get a hit, then he really does need to go.

BUT HE STARTED THEM TO STAY OUT OF THE DOUBLE PLAY, FOOLS! Why don't you pay attention to that which Joe Morgan teaches you.

Choi is going to walk on a lot of full counts. He's going to K on a lot of full counts -- neither of which really necessitates starting the runner except for kicks.

Putting aside the strategy of it all, why does Izturis get thrown out so much this year? I mean, nailed on a 3-2 foul-tip pitch by LoDuca? How often did LoDuca throw out guys on busted hit-and-runs when he was a Dodger?

The last time I saw Tracy do that, Valentin was at the plate! He must do it every couple of weeks to remind us of the power he holds to do evil.

Gameday:

"Florida Marlins third baseman Mike Lowell left the game due to an injured head."

I think one of us must have done something to Jim Tracy's family or loved ones and he is just torturing us for revenge.

That was ridiculous, plus it made Plaschke's boyfriend look good by allowing him to throw out a runner.

Dodgers have now stolen 14 out of 22 this season. Opponents are 24 out of 31.

I don't think Izturis or Bradley is as fast as the coaching staff thinks they are.

Re 158 - funniest thing all day.

Re H&R - WTF, Choi has hit into one DP all year!

"an injured head" -- not a common phrase, really.

Florida Marlins third baseman Mike Lowell left the game due to an injured head.

Was he hit by a falling anvil?

By the way, the Dodgers entered the game tied for third-to-last in the NL in stolen bases attempted this season. Only Colorado and St. Louis had attempted fewer.

That pitch was 88 from Weaver. I know as soon as I dare to hope, he'll suck again, so I'll just continue ripping on him all year.

165 -

No - by a Plinko chip.

And we've come full circle, everyone!

160 -- by five feet.

WTF, Choi has hit into one DP all year!

Tracy must've confused Choi with last year's first baseman. It happens when you reach his age.

Milton, please do not try to steal third

Well, it would be 2-0 if Tracy wouldn't have sent Cesar.

With 52 hours between the end of this Dodger game and the start of the next one, Steve's Grabowski Priniciple should definitely be heeded with regards to Weaver as the game progresses.

I have never checked out the dodgers.com board but I just did for kicks. Needless to say I made it through 5 comments before I closed that tab...not even worth the entertainment value.

Did those of you watching TV notice how far Kent was from being on the base in turning that DP? Sure, the old "neighborhood" play. Which is fine - I'm all for helping guys avoid injury. But it reminds me of how Robles got victimized and the team robbed the other day. Not only was Robles "in the neighborhood." He had BOTH FEET ON the base! That ump should be fired forthwith. Or worse, forced to apologize.

It started as a promising inning.

Bad luck for Bradley -- not his fault.

Vinny says that Lowell has a "facial laceration"

And.........the Dodgers run themselves out of another inning. Bradley seems to get thrown out a lot on the basepaths.

Could the bases be run more terribly this game?

FC 1-5.
Wha?

That play prevented another intentional walk for Bako.

Bad luck for Bradley -- not his fault.

Not watching the game. Please explain why I shouldn't be cursing Milton right now.

Beckett made a nice stab on a ball hit to the second base side of the mound. Bradley was in no man's land and Beckett threw him out at third.

Unbelievable.... 2 on and 1 out turns to 1 on and 2 out last inning... now we have 1 on 2B and 0 outs turned into 1 on 1B and 2 outs.

Ridiculous...

anyone up for the DH rule about now?

This will be Beckett's 79th pitch.

At least Beckett's already thrown, oh, about 200 pitches...

3 Hits, 4 Walks, 0 Runs, Go Dodgers!

Two pitchers combined -- 17 ground outs, 2 fly outs

I mean 4 flyouts

I don't know about the wisdom of the hit and run there, but last year Izturis stole 25 of 34.

74% isn't too shabby.

We seem to be suffering from the old disease of not hitting in synch.

That being said, if Drew is heating up, the runs should eventually come.

WWSH

7 baserunners, no runs.

I'd like to know what each manager's baserunner/runs ratio is. This seems like something over which managers have a marginal level of control - i.e., pinch-hitters, third-base coaching, basic running fundamentals, running decisions.

I don't think Trace runs too much in general, and Jon's figures support that, but that hit-and-run was lame. Choi's not a prototypical 2-hole hitter, and he shouldn't be used that way. Tracy should play to his strengths--his power and good eye--rather than force him to put the ball in play.

WWSH

oh oh

Did those of you watching TV notice how far Kent was from being on the base in turning that DP?

That's what I thought when I first saw it. I replayed it a couple of times on DVR, and it looks like he stepped on the bag and moved his foot off as he caught the ball and pivoted to throw to 1st. It looks like he was off the bag, but I couldn't be sure.

Who knew that Mike Edwards and Joe Dillion would both be playing third base in the Majors in the same game...

Wow - Edwards had NO range. Decent hands once he gets to a ball, but he's a statue. That was a slow roller.

Here's where Weaver goes to crap. If you cant get Nacion out, something is wrong. And then Dillon? follows..

anyone up in the pen?

If Edwards' glove isn't much, that's another reason why Saenz should play 3B against lefties rather than benching Choi.

WWSH

Why he's only had 2 3-1 counts and a 2-0 count this inning.

David Wells today: 1 1/3 IP, nine hits, seven runs.

Jeff, getting ahead in the count should help.

Let Weaver get out of it. Too early to go to the pen, just for two singles, and even with Weaver's propensity to collapse very, very quickly.

To be fair, Edwards comes in on the ball (bunts, etc.) pretty well, better than Saenz. But I've seen no evidence of lateral range. Give Antonio a shot!

Horacio Ramirez today: 3 IP, eight hits, seven runs.

Anyone know of A. Perez's fielding at AAA at 3B?

Khalil Greene has two three-run homers in the first three innings for San Diego.

Jeff's almost out of it. Just get the pitcher out... Weaver has a bad habit sometimes of losing concentration in spots like this.

WWSH

Great - I finally get a chance to start watching Gameday during work and log on here, and Weaver's making me nervous...if he can't get the pitcher out, of all people, here, he needs to be pulled.

GRABOWSKI PRINCIPLE! Beware all ye who enter here!

Groan The Braves walk all over us, and then roll over for the Padres. Arghhh...

WWSH

Yeah, that Khalil kid is great.

Wow, what a terrible throw by Ledee - it looked like he had plenty of time to at least make it close. Good thing he's hitting, because he stinks out there.

Ugh.

Repko would have thrown him out.. I don't care how Ledee is doing at the plate, that will come back down to earth and his defense is horrid.

No more comments from me. I jinxed it.

ARGGHHHH!!!!!!!

I'll shut up now.

WWSH

Nice throw Ledee.

Weaver, what a joke... Cant even get the pitcher out.

How lucky can Jeff Weaver be? He's pitched almost 5 innings and has 0 strikeouts.

I believe he's thrown a first pitch ball to every hitter this inning.

Someone tell Vinnie that Juan Pierre is NOT a good hitter. Nah - this is more charming.

219 -- we'll be forced to see in the sixth, where he takes it back out there against the heart of the order.

Well, he is a carrer .309 hitter. That is pretty good.

One good thing is out plate discipline is excellent today.

Beckett has 81 pitches through 4 IP. If we have a good 5th inning, we'll win this game. Gotta make him work.

He threw a first pitch called strike to Damion Easley -- then three straight off the plate until Easley popped up on a 3-1 count -- which is what makes him Damion Easley.

That innning could have been far worse...

226 - true. A 1-run lead is certainly the farthest thing from insurmountable...

I'd say that the negative assessments of Weaver constitute a good example of letting the ideal be the enemy of the good. Weaver is good. Better than average. Sometimes terrific. Even in this game, he's given up 1 run on 5 singles in 5 innings. If the Dodgers had 4-5 runs, we wouldn't even care about that 1 run. He's not an ace. That doesn't mean he sucks.

Steve, I just started reading your site. You are a bitter, bitter man, but very funny. Keep up the good work.

Duaner up in the bullpen

Good at bat by Izzy.

7 pitch walk. Beckett is closin in on 90 pitches.

Hee Seop Choi..

Sometimes it's just fun to say.

let's try the hit and run again. It can't fail every time...

223: Adjust out the Coors Field inflation, consider his low walk rate, and what you have is a guy who is just barely serviceable.

Tracy might actually be paying attention to the game now.

Weaver going to make the 6 1/3 Over/Under?

vr

Xei

I agree with 228. But I will say that anecdotally, I've observed a pattern where Weaver gives up runs in chunks. So it's not saying he sucks when I get nervous about him. Just that when he falters, he seems to falter big. But again, that's anecdotal on my part.

Wow.. this ump is not giving anything in the outside corner. Good for us.

Hee
Seop
Choi

Now that was a professional at-bat.

Good at bat by Choi. Now for Drew to come out of his slump.

Beckett is laboring.

Big AB for Drew.. A big hit here would be good for breaking out of his slump...

arrghh... 0-2

Time to earn your keep Drew.

So Drew swings at the first pitch garbage as a follow-up.

...or not. Maybe tomorrow.

237: Yeah, especially after 110-115 pitches. He was brilliant in his last start until he was gassed. So yeah, have someone up in the 'pen when he gets up around 70-80 pitches, just to be prepared for a quick hook.

Drew has to start finding the holes sometime. Come on Kent.

Should've bunted.

96 pitches in 4-1/3 innings for Beckett.

I meant Friday. Thank you Kent!

OK.. I think it's time for Drew to move to the 5 hole.

GO KENT!! Officially out of his mini slump !!

I think Kent is officially out of his slump

AWRIGHT!

Deja Vu...

I was all "dammit Drew" because my Gameday was showing 2 outs, and then GD corrected itself. So suddenly I'm a lot less angry at Drew than I would be normally.

Plus, Kent just bailed his ass out! Whoo hoo!

YES! Who says Choi is slow... Scored all the way 1st.

2-1 Dodgers!

Double!!!!!!!

vr

Xei

Sweet!
What did the double look like? Gameday shows it at the LF wall.

Leaving Beckett in is a mistake.

On the radio, it sounded just like the Ellison play in the home opener..."Kent hits a line drive to left, and it gets by Cabrera!"

Well that was garbage from Milton... show some patience.

It wasn't that hard for Choi to score. The double took a really bad bounce off the wall.

according to Vinny, "Beckett still got alot in the tank. We'll see...

One thing that has bothered me about the Dodger lineup - even when Drew was hitting - is having back-to-back lefties in the No. 2 and No. 3 spots. For this reason more than any other, I would consider making a lineup change there.

Marlins have a terrible bullpen and they are probably tired from last night, so I'd think McKeon would go as long as he could with Becket.

vr

Xei

Cabrera played it like it was on fire, which didn't hurt.

Beckett is just raring back and firing -- he knows he's gone.

256: I hadn't heard complaints about Choi's speed. I think he's like a lot of big guys - kinda slow getting started, but good cruising speed.

What's this - Beckett gets better after 96 pitches?!

Damn... Our guys always quit fighting at the plate when we take a lead...

Leaving Beckett in seemed to work. Two Ks in a row.

Beckett has thrown 105 pitches through 5, but he's got the 7-8-9 hitters in the sixth. He'll stay in another inning.

105 pitches, and Beckett was just throwing as hard as he could. It didn't help that that was one of Bradley's "swing at anything that moves" ABs (he has them -- it's cool). I think he's very likely gone.

Choi towers over LoDuca

Here we go...

Weaver, OTOH, faces the heart of Florida's order.

GRABOWSKI PRINCIPLE!

Does that mitt-spike by Beckett in the dugout count against his pitch total? Looked like a fastball.

well there goes that lead again

Forget what I said - Weaver sucks.

Grabowski Principle ignored again

I'd like to hear predictions on what the Dodgers record will be while Grabowski is in the "DL."

[Of course, I'd feel bad if he actually was legitimately injured, but the whole thing is fishy].

I'll say 9-4.

Ouch!

vr

Xei

Krep.

I have to tell you, with the off day coming, I'd start emptying the pen before letting Weaver try to get through this.

The trick to Weaver is you can't be fooled by a pitch count

He shall stay in, though, until the game is out of reach.

Weaver not the luckiest pitcher anymore...

Aw, man - by the time I even got my message written, the damage was done.

Do we have anyone warming up in the bullpen yet?

I'll say 6-7, assuming it's 13 games played.

vr

Xei

I was just thinking this seems like one of those "smokejumper" innings...

GRABOWSKI PRINCIPLE!

THere goes the lead, but if we cant score more 5 or 6 off the Marlins pen, we deserve to lose.

Wake up, Tracy.

Damn... Our guys always quit fighting at the plate when we take a lead...

Then again, they did score 14 runs last night.

Hey Jon, here's another anecdote for you.

#283: Indeed. Too late.

I thought we had groundball pitchers...

Sure, now the visit to the mound.

what on earth was Ledee doing? we was doing a little jig on the warning track.

How many homers in a row can they hit off of Weaver?

vr

Xei

Colborn's coming out! What do you want, Icaros?

what on earth was Ledee doing? we was doing a little jig on the warning track.

Vinny says it was a good pitch by Weaver, in a good location. It looked like a fly ball, and Ledee was circling under it but it just kept going...meanwhile, it's time to take Weaver out. What is Tracy waiting for?

Okay he's gassed

Steve: Grabowski Principle? Who walked?

A bit late but...
"if this were the NBA, Grabowski would be put on injured reserve due to 'back spasms.'"
I prefer "knee patella tendinitis."

well this is fun

On an 0-2 pitch???

TAKE HIM OUT...

Man I hate Weaver.. Who doesnt see these things coming?

When a pitcher goes the entire game without striking out one batter, you know he aint fooling anyone.

I hate Weaver and Tracy.

Ha! Did you see the look on Kent's face during that mound-conference? He was looking at Weaver with a "what the #(&*" sort of expression. Good stuff.

Weaver is the Unanimous Champion of the 0-2 Homerun.

Colburn: How do you feel?
Weaver: I feel good
Colburn: Go get em then

304 -

It was the hit he allowed to Beckett.

Enca*nar*cion again. Somebody kill Charlie Steiner.

He just hit Encarnacion, but Encarnacion was dumb enough to swing at it.

Coaching visit to mound.

"Hey Weaves, yeah, sorry I'm late, I was in the john and Tracy was questioning himself in his sleep..."

Giving up a run-scoring hit to the pitcher triggers the Grabowski Principle.

Our lack of hitting homers, and other team's homers are killing us.

At least this will all be the offense's fault in the paper tomorrow.

That fastball was 84.

Another non-quality start from an LA Hurler...

But then again, Jeff Weaver is a #5 caliber starter.

Weaver will be pinch hit for when his spot comes up next. With Grabowski on the DL who could it possibly be? :)

vr

Xei

Holy Crap.

Robles. Almost certainly Robles.

GRABOWSKI PRINCIPLE!

Guh

Tracy, it's time. It's past time.

FTJ! FTJ! FTJ! FTJ! What will Weaver say about Trace leaving him in this time?

How many home runs does Weaver have to give up before Tracy wakes up?

LOL!!!

Thanks. Tracy. Now the game really is out of reach.

Wow! This is going to be out of control quickly. Monday just said Weaver has thrown some bad pitches this inning. Good analysis

Open Letter to Jim Tracy:

I would cancel that chat with the fans. Idiot.

Sincerely,

FJT

hmmm...maybe take him out now?

You would think that the fact every pitch in the strike zone was getting fouled off would be a clue of what would happen, but nooooo.

oldbear: a gentle but firm BS to that comment.

Hey, someone woke Tracy!

Now pitching...

vr

Xei

Stupid warm weather.

I just realized Weaver is still in. Why? A comment one of you made earlier in the season has stuck with me:

What's the point of having a great bullpen if you don't use it?

Did I just read Weavers lips? I need Tivo at the office. Iswear he said "bout time".

(Sadly shakes head)

We suddenly went to commercial on TV after the double. Does that mean we're finally getting a new pitcher?

Giving up a homerun to Damian Easley put us in the rarified air of being in a DOUBLE GRABOWSKI PRINCIPLE situation. It would have been fun to see him left in just to see how bad it could have gotten. They might have lost the off day tomorrow batting around Bugs Bunny style.

Is that Jim Tracy or his inflateable doll in the dugout watching this game?

vr

Xei

I can't stop laughing. At least Tracy is starting to provide comic relief with his managerial decisions.

In tomorrow's paper, Weaver will undoubtedly intimate that he should have been pulled in the 5th because it was hot and he was gassed.

It's not like Weaver looked shaky in the previous inning or anything. Who could've guessed that he'd fall apart in the 6th?

What troubles me is when I read quotes from DePodesta about not watching the pitchers work. I really hope he doesn't miss how hopelessly lost his manager is.

Weaver said "about time"?

Anyone confirm that?

Too funny if true.

vr

Xei

The gameday photo of Sanchez is frightening.

I feel like we can just cut and paste our comments from the last Weaver outing.

But then again, so is Barnett''s

Jim Tracy should be replaced with

A) A new manager
B) A laptop computer
C) A pile of rocks
D) The Hilton sisters
E) Who is Jim Tracy

Oh my God.

Will this inning never end?

Marty - Good call. That picture is certainly scarier than a Paris Hilton movie.

sheesh. make that Beckett

I hope 344 was sarcasm.

When you go almost 6 IP with 0 K's, you aint fooling anyone.

I've come to the realization we will not win a pennant with Jim Tracy as the skipper.

He's awful. Simply truly terrible.

Steiner says Beckett was HBP, but Gameday says he walked. Can anybody watching the game tell me which is true?

somebody tell Sanchez to pull up his pants because there bell-bottomish and ridiculous. everyone should follow H.S. Choi's example.

I think that baseball teams should be able to replace their manager during a game much like new pitchers are brought in and out of games. Instead of the manager walking to the mound and signaling to the bullpen for a new pitcher. The shortstop or team captain should be able to walk off the field into the dugout and signal for a new manager to come in.

vr

Xei

See, Tracy brought Sanchez in because walking the pitcher and giving up a hit to Pierre is better than giving up 2 more HRs.

346: you think that's bad, look at Ledee's headshot. He looks like the mutant pigboy run over by a Mack truck.

Beckett walked

good lord. and here I was convinced we had a breakout game lastnight.

I'm going to blame this one on the pitching.....

THREE GRABOWSKI PRINCIPLES IN ONE INNING!

looks like we brought in the flame thrower rather than the smoke jumper.

350: apparently not.

... This is ridiculous.

alrighty then, time to find something productive to do around the house...

360: followed by a breakdown game today.

Somebody tell oldbear whether or not I'm ever sarcastic.

360 - well, it doesn't look pretty right now, but last night was impressive mostly for the hitting. And we should be seeing the Marlins bullpen again soon...this is ugly, but the hitters can still make the runs up.

DePo's gonna have get rid of all of Tracy's pets.. Duaner Sanchez is one of them...

361 -- you can blame all of them on our pitching. Our staff is atrocious. Weaver is Erickson but younger, or at least, so he claims.

"Has Weaver met my three-home-runs-followed-by-a-double measure of when a pitcher should be pulled? Yes, he has."

I'd charge 3 runs to Jim Tracy that inning. Weaver should've been hooked after the Delgado HR.

I thought it was a breakthrough game because Tracy brought in Wunsch before the meltdown. Apparently, we're only going to try to win every third game.

Jim Tracy to team: "Ok guys, we got em right where we want em."

vr

Xei

I was waiting for LoDuca to go yard there and for Plaschke to come out and do a live interview at home plate.

Paulie with the mercy out.

These games are driving me to drink.

Is Carrara(sp?) still on the team?

vr

Xei

There really has to be players who are getting sick of seeing these managerial non-decisions

Christina-
True, but one (Kent) could argue that the hitting (beyond the first)came because they could finally relax and stop pressing at the plate. Over the past 2 and a half weeks we haven't been very good offensively when chasing runs.

Why in the world is Beckett coming out there? Dumb.

4 innings to score 4 runs, assuming of course we don't allow any more.

Since I only started paying attention to the FJT site recently, and even to this one late last season, let me ask Steve: do you think that Tracy worse this year than last year? It sure seems that way to me.

So who pitches next? Erickson's turn?

vr

Xei

Weaver's season ERA went from 4.79 before that inning to 5.59 after that inning. You take out his last inning of his last two games, and his ERA would be around 4.00 (I think).

Seems like we need a manager or pitching coach who understands that Weaver gets bored after the 5th inning or so, and can focus anymore. Someone who understands his pitchers.

377: Me too. Cheers.

We need to move the left field fences back another 50 feet.

vr

Xei

I just want to skip to our at bats in inning 7.

381 - because it's the bottom of our order and mckeon doesn't trust his bullpen.

This is the worst thing. Watch Beckett get out of this inning in 10 pitches because he can throw strikes and not issue walks which he does in close games.

I don't think firing Jim Tracy is the answer.

Someone just has to help him deal with his drug problem.

Who could've guessed that he'd fall apart in the 6th?

Because this happens so often, I've logged each of Weaver's starts that reached the 6th, 7th, or 8th inning to find some semblance of evidence that he doesn't belong out there in the later innings.

According to my count, Weaver has pitched 12.1 innings so far this season in the 6, 7, 8 innings combined. In those innings, he has allowed 12 runs.

An 8.76 ERA in the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings this year. And that includes two shutout performances that lasted into the 8th and 9th innings. Not counting his shoutout outings, Weaver's 6-7-8 inning ERA is 17.70.

Take your pick, 8.76 or 17.70.

That's a nice incentive to TAKE HIM OUT oF THE GAME BEFORE RUNS SCORE.

>

But how do you know when a run is going to score?

vr

Xei

When he walks/gives up a hit to the opposing pitcher.. that's a good sign.

You know that runs will score when Jeff Weaver is pitching in the 6th, 7th, or 8th inning and he allows the first 2 hitters to reach base. That's when you take him out. Also, after any violation of the Grabowski Principle.

Great, I go to get some lunch, and this happens.

We had Sanchez warming up before that inning started, why the hell do we bother to do that if you aren't going to bring him in after homerun number two?

Wow - can we trade for Josh Beckett? Gotta like a guy who reacts to giving up the lead by striking out 4 of 5 after he's over 100 pitches.

haha! Ok, the Grabowski Principle is new to me. Can we get a definition of it and all theorems related to it? :)

vr

Xei

Too bad Jim Crowell got sent to the minors. He would be nice to bat against in the 8th.

... Good at-bat by Perez -- an encouraging sign.

395. Or when the bong is empty.

337/345:
Weaver said "about time"? Anyone confirm that?

Not on FSNW2 (or is it my TimeWarner Cable). After the double, there was a quick shot of Tracy coming out, Vin was cut off mid sentence and we went to commercial. It's like the FSN guys in the control booth were anticipating the pitching change, and hit the switch quick.

393- When he starts missing high and leaving balls up in the strike zone.

Okay, uh...guys, when I wrote this:

Who could've guessed that he'd fall apart in the 6th?

I was clearly being sarcastic.

Remember me, Icaros, I'm here all the time? This is two posters now who've mistaken me for being as stupid as JT.

I'll say it again - nice to have a 6' 5" first baseman.

We need something like an ALT-FJT key to denote sarcasm

Now THAT is a Grabowski Principle moment.

Alvarez is still Da Bomb. Are they sure he can't start? Really, really sure? Not even go 4-5 innings?

Alvarez does the impossible...walks Juan E.

... Damn. I was hoping to see Alvarez start on Friday. I suppose we'll see D.J. Houlton instead. Maybe I can trade my inner reserved tickets for LF pavilion seats, and bring my glove.

Didn't read the first 200 comments, assuming most of you have read the Hee Seop Choi "article" at baseballtonight.blogspot?

mcrawford, the 4-5 inning start is reserved for Weaver.

I believe Scott Erickson goes Friday (hooray).

Since we're jumping on Tracy... I wouldn't have minded seeing Perez stay in the game.

The Barrage of Singles commences!

Izturis is scaring me right now.

Is McKeon going to bring in Perisho to take Choi out of the game?

Xeifrank/398: if I may, the Grabowski Principle may be formulated as --

Whenever a pitcher struggles or fails to make an out against an opponent who clearly has no reasonable expectation of a good result (i.e., surrendering a hit to the pitcher, walking Jason Grabowski), the Grabowski Principle says it is time to pull the starting pitcher.

The Jim Tracy correlary says that if the manager is sleeping in the dugout or watching reruns of America's Funniest Home Videos, this will not happen.

He
Bopped
Choi

Choi has been a ball magnet this week.

sometime this year drew, a big hit huh???

waiting, waiting, waiting....

Icaros -

I knew you were being sarcastic about the 6th-inning thing. I just wanted a quote to start my Proof-Weaver-Shouldn't-Ever-Pitch-Past -the-5th-Inning post off with a bang.

Not that we need any more proof.

Wasn't pretty, but it worked.

Nice, nice. I like it.

419--hilarious

Xei, as the founder of the Grabowski Principle, I only add that it takes its name from Kevin Jarvis' two out walk of Jason Grabowski in last week's game, leading to Izturis' two-run single and Choi's game winning home run.

Boy, if only they could've held FLA to 3 in the sixth...

Kill the UMP!

The dread duo of Bump and Perisho up in the Marlin's bullpen.

This team has an outstanding lack of depth.

re 428: Ump made the right call. The murder would be for recreational purposes only.

Gobears/419: Hee!

Come on Milton -- save JT's behind again!

Okay OZ, thanks.

THat was one pathetic at bat by Kent. Glad Trace let the Marlins have 3 extra runs.

Go Larry Sheets!

come on double or nothing...

Rob, you are right about Ledee's picture.

Milton has yet to have a patient at bat all game. Damn we are sucking.

I'm beginning to think Trace is sucking the morale out of this team by leaving in starters and getting behind so much.

I'm a DePo supporter, but he needs to do something energize this team. Dumping Tracy would be a smart move.

Sucks to not even get a sac fly from your 4 and 5 hitters.

...nothing.
Single.
Single
Single
crap
poop
barf

438 - Bradley walked on a 3-2 pitch to lead off the second inning.

that was lame. Hey, maybe we can trade Sanchez to the Marlins. Sanchez and a 3B prospect for Lowell? Or is Lowell a little too old to give up a quality prospect?

Aren't the Dodgers paying Tracy only $400k for 2 years? It wouldn't seem to hurt too much financially to let him go. It seems like Wallach always says the right stuff in the papers - why not give him a try?

And now we have Edwards/Bako/PH to look forward to in the 8th. PH will be Robles (to bunt) if anyone gets on. Otherwise, probably Saenz.

But he would have been out first or second pitch, if Lowell wouldn't have tried to catch the ball with his nose.

Boy, is Tracy going to be surprised when he finds out this isn't an instructional league.

Steve why are you always dogging out Grabowski? Do you know how hard it is to come into a game and pinch hit when you've had limited at-bats?

By the way, how many days do you have in the big leagues?

Somebody asked if Tracy's gotten worse. My ever-evolving answer to that (since Tracy does things that shock even me regularly now) is that Tracy appears to have no idea that his hitters can hit but his pitchers can't pitch. The media hasn't caught up to it yet, but one would expect that from them -- they never will.

I don't usually do this, but my letter to Paul DePodesta over at my site adequately sums up my feelings about this team without repeating them here.

Jan, Steve dogs out everyone.. it's his way..

447:
BAAAAAAAAAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now THAT's sarcasm. Good work.

I hope 447 was sarcastic. In case it wasn't, you don't need to be in the big leagues to know that it's hard to pinch-hit. That doesn't mean you can't observe when someone isn't succeeding at it, while others do.

DePodesta just needs to start being a manager overlord like Billy Beane is. To FJT would be LoDuca/Mota multiplied by 5 million. Who needs it?

#443

I agree. Tracy needs to go. He is clearly sucking the life out of the team with his mismanagement of the starting rotation.

Wallach seems like a good fit and has the players respect, especially H.S. Choi

447 - How much expirence do you have dogging Grabowski?

Since you clearly have never done it, I don't think you can criticize someone who does it for a living.

Wow, nearing 500 posts for an afternoon game!

I was bored and surfing the net and came across this article on the washington post web site. Some dude named Curt Smith took 2 years to research and rank the 101 best baseball announcers of all time. He created a point system so that it's somewhat scientific. http://tinyurl.com/bfr4f

If you're not registered at the Washington Post, I can save you some trouble and tell you that Vin is #1.

I'd like to see Saenz bat for Bako this inning rather than for Choi in the ninth (fat chance).

Here's the top 10

Bako inspires no confidence at all

I think 447 was written by Al Downing.

Is that a real bat that Bako brings to the plate? Or a trick bat, that somehow bends away from the ball? I've never seen a guy miss so consistently by so much. A swing that ends with you on one knee is probably not destined for success. Yowch.

Sorry! Here's the top 10!

1. Vin Scully
2. Mel Allen
3. Ernie Harwell
4. Jack Buck
5. Red Barber
6. Harry Caray
7. Bob Prince
8. Jack Brickhouse
9. Dizzy Dean
10. Lindsay Nelson

Why was Robles playing in Mexico City and not in some organization's AA or AAA? I can't believe we don't have better options. Depo needs to take away Robles from Tracy.

If we end up losing this game, its pretty demoralizing.

Weaver cant pitch and Tracy cant manage.

We are going to struggle with Weaver/Erickson/Tracy on this team.

Hmm, that reminds me - I'm hungry. Wunsch time!

But, being lefty, Bako has a much better chance at success in that situation than Phillips or Saenz. The same is true for Robles.

The strikeout and comebacker you just witnessed were anomalies.

8-4 Padres in the 9th. Braves have 2 on and 1 out.

It's not easy to walk Pierre, either.

does anyone on the team openly back Tracy?

these days, it's rare to hear any his players supporting his decisions. it's only a matter of time before the players start complaining to Depo.

if he goes, who will replace him?

However, Bochy has decided to bring in Hoffman now.

Looks like the Marlins are going to pile on a few more.

Wow - Paulie really aimed that one into the hole. Just barely got his bat on it.

REALLY nice play by Choi. Looked Pierre back, then made the out.

I guess we are going to lose our Wunsch here.

It's not easy to walk Pierre, either.

After K'ing twice against Wunsch, I think Pierre just decided not to swing. Wunsch's sweeping curves didn't go for strikes, so good plan by Pierre.

Let's hope Kelly is good in the KWunsch.

Gameday shows the last pitch of that intentikonal walk as being inside. Is that possible?

Today is yet another example of how trying to leave your starting pitcher in when he's wobbly does not at all mean you will save your bullpen.

make that intentional. I can't type today.

Encarnacion has been put ahead in the count in every at-bat today.

Pads win 8-4.

You know, I lost track of the innings. I thought the game was over!

Ballgame.

over under on Tracy's departure: 45days

LOL... Carrara... Cant even get out Encarnacion.

Wait - why the hell was the infield in with the bases loaded and 1 out? Wasn't part of the point of walking Cabrera to set up the double play?

Might as well be over Bob.

#455: I'm assuming you lose announcer points for each reference to either "heart" or "soul"?

oldbear - are you watching on TV? Carrara totally jammed Encarnacion. The ball blooped over Izturis and landed in the infield. The only reason that wasn't an out was that Izturis was pulled in for some reason.

I'll take the over... by a few days.

484 - Pierre on 3rd... squeeze?

i wish i wasn't watching this...

I'm surprised more disgruntled GameDay operators don't but "balls" in the strike zone as a way of showing up weak umpiring.

I have a friend in NY who is a GameDay operator. He was in charge of the Sheffield game in Boston last month - He had typed "Varitek doubled on a line drive down the right field line and advanced to third when Gary Sheffield went Ape on a fan."

His editors changed it to "On-field Delay."

I'm surprised more disgruntled GameDay operators don't put "balls" in the strike zone as a way of showing up weak umpiring.

I have a friend in NY who is a GameDay operator. He was in charge of the Sheffield game in Boston last month - He had typed "Varitek doubled on a line drive down the right field line and advanced to third when Gary Sheffield went Ape on a fan."

His editors changed it to "On-field Delay."

Carrara did a good job- just got unlucky on that broken-bat-jam-job-2-run single. You can't strike everyone out.

GoBears, I'm on gameday, was the infield really playing in? That scares me. That must mean Tracy is really losing it.

Pitching = Problem

Can you imagine a staff of Weaver, Erickson, Ishii, Nomo, and Lima, with Dessens as the long man?

During the offseason, it looked like a real possibility.

488: Well, you could bring the corners in to protect against the squeeze (also, pretty unlikely with Encarnacion up there), but keep the middle IFers back.

493. Marty - yup, they were all pulled way in.

Tracy is so inconsistent with lineups, rhetoric ("excellent situational hitter, etc) and decision making that it has indeed rubbed off onto the every part of the team.

I swear I saw Milton ease-up on the double to the gap in 7th during Weaver's shelling. he was so irratated that Weaver was still in the game.

Champion - I'd say that's a little projection on your part. You're irritated (as are many of us) and project that onto the players. But as I pointed out yesterday, I'd say that Tracy is actually maddeningly CONSISTENT with his lineups. He needs to get a little more creative (you know, like maybe letting Choi start against lefties).

You know the team has given up when even Choi swings at the 1st pitch down 5 runs in the 9th.

Surely DePo sees what we all see in terms of Jim Tracy. But I dont think he has Beane's impulsive personaity to just get rid of him.

I'm all for Wallach being manager.

Is Erickson up next in the rotation?

vr

Xei

Yup

It'd really do my heart good for Depo to go Howard Roarke on Tracy.

Here are the options for replacing Jim Tracy as posted earlier.

Fire and replace Tracy with:
A) A new manager
B) A laptop computer
C) A sack of rocks
D) The Hilton sisters.
E) Who is Jim Tracy.

vr

Xei

And I've seen Bradley, Ledee, and everyone except Drew ease up on doubles. I guess the idea is that a triple is so unlikely and a double so guaranteed, that why hurry when it won't matter?

2.5 games behind San Diego... and arguably our hottest stretch of the season behind us. Plus we lost 3 straight series against contending teams. Plus we get to play Angels of Anaheim who wish they were in Los Angeles. LA Times is going to be ecstatic over who the best baseball team of Los Angeles is.

Surely DePo sees what we all see in terms of Jim Tracy. But I dont think he has Beane's impulsive personaity to just get rid of him.

Considering that the A's have had only 2 managers during the Beane adminsitration, I can't say that the he has a quick trigger finger with his managers.

Besides, he let Howe's contract run out and didn't resign him. I wouldn't call that impulsive. Seems rather calculated to me.

Just got back from work, fast-forwarded the TiVo and what can I say but this bites.

455 - Curt Smith wrote the definitive book on baseball broadcasting called "Voices of the Game." I think it made for a terrific read but I'm biased as I care intensely about the craft of baseball announcing.

OK, so the pitching is bad. Seems like we need at least two -- one to replace Erickson and one to push Weaver into the bullpen. That's a pretty tall order for DePo.

Tracy is in something of an enviable position right now. If fired, he'll be treated as a martyr. Of course, I'm sure he'd rather be employed than be a martyr, but he'd have no trouble finding work again.

If Tracy was fired and became a martyr would he be entitled to the 72 virgins?

vr

Xei

12 baserunners.... 3 runs

I disagree that we need two. Weaver is fine as long as he is held on a tight leash and we use Alvarez to take over for him.

So how are the pitching prospects in the minors doing??????

vr

Xei

Hey all,
I read daily but never post. I love the site and usually enjoy the comments.
Just one quick thought: Most posters in this blog are familiar to Moneyball concepts, most encourage thinking outside the box, yet for some reason almost all the comments share the same basic views about what should be done with the team.
I'll take Tracy as an example - I'm not saying he is a great manager, but I think blaming him for each lost is a bit too much. I agree with some of the criticism (Tracy should have taken Weaver out earlier today), I can also understand that some commenters think everything is Tracy's fault (hi Steve) what bothers me is that lately everyone has exactly the same criticism, which makes you wonder if this isn't "group thinking" - are people thinking independently or just reflecting what's considered the 'general thought'?

IAW 509, but I don't think it does any good for Depo to let Tracy drag him down.

I know at least for me that my criticism of Tracy has been a slow progression from "well maybe he's made a couple of bad decisions" to annoyance, to anger. I think we all influence each other's opinions but the problem is there to see each game around the 6th inning.

514.

Can only speak for myself, I would think the same thing about Tracy had I never visited this site in my life. It's true, Tracy cannot be blamed for every loss. Some losses he can and some he cannot, and where credit is due he deserves it. But a managers job is to give his team the highest probability of winning a game and he fails to do so. Many times the Dodgers win DESPITE of Jim Tracy (ie - the double grand slam inning game).

vr

Xei

Tracy's biggest upside was/is his ability to communicate with his players and massage their ego's; it just seems his routine is tired. he's quick to point out how much he gets from so little but he's had some serious talent during his tenure.

Depo is not going to fire Tracy yet... in the grand scheme of things, the Dodgers are still over .500, 2.5 games out of 1st place, and regardless of what everyone her thinks of Tracy, he is a well-reputed guy in the majors now, and firing him would make the Dodgers look worse than ever. I think Depo will have a talk with Tracy about leaving pitchers in too long... showing how Weaver pitches after pitching xx number of innings, xx number of pitches, and his stats for an inning where he gives up a run.

I'm not a big Tracy fan.. though I do not feel as strongly about him as Steve. I have not been a fan since the Quantrill incident and I do no think even a WS title will change how I feel about Tracy. That being said, based on how the team is doing this year, there is no chance he will be fired this season. If the team falls out of contention, which I don't see happening (SD will cool down), then he might be fired in the offseason.. but I see Tracy finishing the next two years in Los Angeles.

514,
Good comment. There is a tendency for most people here to blame Tracy for everything. No one seems to blame the pitchers for not being very good pitchers. Or the relievers not providing relief.

I always think the truth lies between the extremes. Jim Tracy is not all evil. He is not all good. He is working with what he's got.

The only two times this year I really thought Tracy was too slow to take out the pitcher were Weaver's starts against the Nats and the Braves. I think now, after those three debacles, Weaver is going to have a serious confidence problem. I think Weaver is expecting everything to go wrong.

But the nature of a blog and comments during a game are going to be polarized. People are reacting viscerally. We aren't spending the time to think through everything necessarily. Some of us can throw out thoughts faster than others. That doesn't mean they're right. Nor does it mean they're wrong.

Roee - 514 - Interesting point about group think. It's easy to say pull Weaver (or any other of our starters) and hope the alternative will be better. Well the alternative today wasnt really that great. If we pulled Weaver after the 5th (which I think paying $8million to someone that is trusted for only 5 innings is ludicrous)there is certainly no guarantee that Sanchez, Alvarez et al would get everyone out.

Now let me say, I don't think Weaver should of faced Laroche the other night and I don't think Tracy is perfect. But I do think he knows more about his personnel than many of us.

All seriousness aside, I think the Dodgers would be better off with one of those magic eight balls that you shake, than with Jim Tracy as manager.

Q: Should we bunt?
(Shake magic 8 ball)
A: Ask again later.

What's the difference?

vr

Xei

Agree with 512.

514 - I don't think people are saying every loss is Tracy's fault. I also think people are arriving at the criticism of Tracy pretty independently. I think some people - Steve and Jerry excluded - felt that Tracy's positives outweighed his negatives, even during the May 2004 slump, but are finding this year to be different.

#519 "Depo is not going to fire Tracy yet... "

easy for you to say given your screenname.

Bob (520) -

It pretty much comes down to this:

"I'm not bad - I'm drawn that way."

- Jessica Rabbit

Actually, it doesn't, but I wanted to use that line.

I think the pitchers have gotten plenty of blame by the commenters, though, haven't they?

#519 - How much do you think that Depo takes Tracy aside and says "look at these numbers, maybe you should take these into account"? I'm not sure how much say a GM has on who plays and who doesn't.

What Depo has done in the past is to take the gun from the baby by trading away those he feels are being used improperly.

On the bright side...

Izturiz is batting .343, with and .817 OPS. It would be wrong if he does not make the AS Break, but Barmes might argue otherwise.

BTW, Drew's OPS is now .803.. so much for the bright side.

Choi has rebounded amazingly well after a bad start... BA .310 with .410/.550/.960 numbers... 6 HRs and 11% of PAs ending in walks. I hope he does not slump like last year after a hot April/May.

Milton Bradley... .325 BA and .935 OPS. 10 HRs and 31 RBIs.

Jeff Kent... .931 OPS with 8 HR and 34 RBI. Should be a lock for AS Game.

Olmedo Saenz... 1.011 OPS in 62 ABs with 18 RBIs.

Alvarez and Gagne are back and out bullpen will be better going forward. Also, I am pretty sure that these ERAs will improve as the season goes on (the bracketed numbers are my projected ERAs)....

Gagne 9.00 (2.00)(ok, an obvious one.. I'm looking for things on the bright side)
Perez 4.50 (3.75)(it has to get better)
Weaver 5.59 (4.50)
Penny 4.39 (3.25)
Houlton 9.00 (either he improves soon or is replaced)

All is not lost, but it will make for a long couple of days until the Dodger play again.
Penny 4.39

Roee (#514): I'd say that's unfair. No one blames Tracy for the injuries, for Kent and now Drew slumping, or for the failed Nakamura experiment. And rightly so. Also, no one credits Tracy for Cesar's hot hitting, for Choi's hot hitting, or for Phillips being a lot better this year than last. And rightly so. We've focused on two things that Tracy seems consistently bad at, and which are entirely his responsibility: when to pull the starting pitcher, and how to fill in the lineup card. Today with Weaver is the repeat of a pattern going back at least a month. Tracy didn't have to make many tough decisions in April, because the team was hitting lights out, which hides all warts. One reason for consensus could be that we're not thinking, but simply reading from the same hymnal. Another could be that we've independently arrived at the same conclusion - Tracy is terrible at managing a pitching staff, and only looks good when (1) there are no bad decisions to be made, because everyone is very good, or (2) the offense hides bad decisions.

I think Scott Erickson has received a lot of grief from all of us.

But that's deserved!

526.

Good point. None of us know the relationship between Depo and Tracy and how much input Depo has on day to day game strategies.

Anyone have a feel for this?

vr

Xei

I don't know, but I have to think that if they keep losing because of obvious Tracy mistakes then someone will say something to him.

I percieve the "Jim Tracy needs to go" sentiment as a kind of snowball effect. It started with Steve last year. Then JT left a starting pitcher in too long, and it was clear to everyone that it was a managerial error. Then he did it again, the sentiment added more believers. Then he did it again. And again. And again. Factor in pinch-hitting Saenz for Choi but not Saenz for crappy hitters, saying "Choi can't face lefties 'cuz it'd mess him up against righties", and other stuff and JT becomes a sketchy figure to many around here.

It's the pattern of weird managing that irritates me more than the individual head-scratchers. I don't remember Tracy leaving starters out to die until this year. Is my memory bad, or does he seems different this year?

That's what people here are mad about - making the same percieved mistake repeatedly. Most people here are more perceptive than the average bear, and with each successive mistake the FJT snowball grew.

Plus, it's like an inside joke that keeps getting revisited at this point, but a bad joke that's gone too far punctuated by crying instead of laughing.

Wow, I did not realize that the last time the Dodgers won consecutive games was on May 1st. We are lucky to be over .500.

To add to #532, it does seem that Tracy leaves starters in longer than ever, but I also think the bullpen is probably the worst it's been since Tracy has been in LA. I think the numbers would show that. I do not think Tracy has enough confidence in the bullpen, and to be fair, here are some of the names coming out of our bullpen this year... Carlyle, Wunsch, Schmoll, Houlton. I can't imagine anyone here is comfortable with this list. Not to mention we haven't had Gagne and Alvarez most of this year. Plus we have Erickson and Dessens starting the first month (and Perez on a pitchcount), which makes Tracy reluctant to take out Lowe and Weaver when he should. Not justifying Tracy, just making some sense out of it all.

My two cents, since I've been AWOL from the board for a few weeks, is:

It's not redundant to bear in mind that this team had holes going into the season, and April was more about overperforming stop-gaps (ie, Repko in LF) than an underestimation of the team. Tracy can't help the fact that the team has spent most of this season with at least one SP, two members of the bullpen, and the everyday LF on the DL. Additionally, the 3B situation has gone from bad to worse to "who?"
Realistically, in my opinion, no useful analysis can be made at DePo's level until the teams plays a decent sample size with a healthy rotation, and a healthy Werth.

I'd like to write a Twilight Zone episode starring Steve Haskins, who one evening awakens and finds himself in a Dodgers uniform, in the dugout, as skipper of the club. He makes smart pitching change after smart pitching change, but no matter what he does, the pitchers continue to get lit up.

He gets back to his house that night, after having lost 27-3, and points his PC browser toward the website he so passionately authors. But the title is now "Fire Steve Haskins!" and the author...Jim Tracy.

(spooky music outro)

I'd like to see an episode where Steve Haskins wakes up next to Jim Tracy. Wait a minute... strike that.

I think you could fault Tracy for leaving pitchers, but I don't get too excited one way or the other about the arrangment of the starting lineup.

It just doesn't make that much of a difference in my opinion. But we like to fixate about it.

I don't really care about the batting order, myself, just the fact that Choi hasn't gotten the starts he should and guys like Repko, Robles, and Nakamura have gotten starts they shouldn't.

And really, I could handle all the other guys if Choi would just get the chance to play every day.

#528: I have a slightly different take on your last statement. I've come to the realization that Jim Tracy was typecast as the Dodgers manager for 2003 & 2004. His in-game management style is complementary with an all-pitch / no-hit team. Unfortunately, we now have a slow-pitch / all-hit team, and he hasn't shown the ability to adjust. Does that mean he's a bad manager? No, probably not, but it could very well mean he's the wrong manager.

#521: It really doesn't matter how much money Weaver / Lowe / Perez are making. They're just not that good. Lowe and Perez's contracts are more a sign of the competitive market for mediocre pitching during the offseason. Tracy needs to watch them and pull the ripcord at the first sign of trouble, otherwise they seem to go from tiring to imploding immediately. Our 2-5 pitchers don't have the talent to turn it up a notch when they get into a jam late in the game. Tracy should be happy with the 5 innings of scoreless baseball and figure out a way to make it work.

re 538: I agree with Bob in terms of batting order. I don't think that matters much. My primary gripes lineup-wise are the Choi sits against lefties, and that Tracy uses his pinch-hitters in what seem to be weird ways.
Can't argue with the team's success against lefties, tho.

And he's gotta stop giving up outs through sacrifice bunts and CSs. But those mistakes merely make him average - all managers seem to do the same.

The only beef I would have with the way Tracy puts together the batting order is when there is a batting order without Choi's name in it most of the time.

I think batting order does matter, it may not seem like it does on a game to game basis, but over a 162 game season it sure does as each drop in the batting order nets you 18 less at bats on the season. You definitely want your better hitters near the top of the order. Tracy hasn't really screwed up the batting order besides the one name he leaves off when a lefty is pitching. I could live with dropping Choi to the #6 hole when a left pitches, but to leave him out of the lineup every time a lefty is starting doesn't seem wise. Why not do the same for Drew then? Or is he playing favorite to veterans like he is with his pitching staff by letting them try to get out of jams every 6th and 7th inning.

vr

Xei

536 -- That cracks me up.

537 -- That cracks me up...not so much. :)

Tracy gets the amount of blame that he is due. The point is that he subtracts where he could add, or at least not insert himself into the game in a negative way. I call it The Grabowski Principle as a lark, but the point is that pitchers that allow horrific things to happen (like Josh Beckett driving in runs) will allow more horrific things to happen. I'm not even sure why this would be controversial. And today screamed for an aggressive use of the bullpen -- day game today, off game tomorrow, night game Friday.

You may think the bullpen is bad, but we are all going to have to get used to the fact that the starting pitching is worse.

As far as Groupthink is concerned, let's just say that last year, I wasn't terribly popular around here. In fact, I'm not now...but the FJT idea is more popular. And that's a good thing.

Just got back from today's game...went last night too...a few thoughts...

Aside from 3 nice innings last night, the Dodgers left numerous runners stranded in the other 5 innings...no one noticed cause they posted a 14 on the board.

It all goes back to what I said a while back, they lack basic baseball fundamentals...they don't move runners along, they don't make the little plays or moves to bring in a runner in scoring position, like hitting to the right side, bunting, whatever...

Drew needs to get out of the 3rd spot, maybe to 6th or 7th, until he comes around. He has finally started hitting, but not in the clutch. He isn't the same hitter as he was with Rolens and Pujols and Edmonds in his lineup. (then again, who would be)

I go back to what I said about the lefty righty match ups a while back. Saenz and Choi are hitting great, but you will never see both in the lineup. The matchup proposition isn't working the way it is supposed to:

...Why not put Saenz at third, Choi at first, and see how it goes for a while? How much worse could Saenz be defensively that what we have gotten so far?

...Bako is an automatic out, how much worse could we do with Phillips in there every day?

...Pitching management re: the starters...one inning too long every single game. You just knew Weaver would explode today, it was hot, which makes up for his low pitch count thru 5 today...the way he labored thru the 5th, you knew he was almost done...when Lo Duca reached in the 6th, I told those around me that Delgado would hit the next one out...voila...then I said to watch Weaver beat himself up and fall apart...2 homers later, Tracy finally takes him out...

Way too frustrating...last year I saw glimpses of Walt Alston in Tracy...now I think he is way over his head...

Then again...never mind...

re 540 he hasn't shown the ability to adjust. Does that mean he's a bad manager? No, probably not, but it could very well mean he's the wrong manager.

Well, I take your point, but I fail to see the distinction. A good manager would adjust. Think of Pat Riley moving from the Showtime Lakers to the Knicks, then the Heat. He adapted to the hand he was dealt. Tracy either can't, won't, or doesn't see the need to adapt to this new Dodger team. A good manager would. It's not like he's a player, blessed with some skills but not others, who just has to do what he does best.

Now, once we put it this way, then of course DePodesta had to take the responsibility for finding a good manager who can adapt.

#540

On paper, going into the season, don't you think Tracy had reason to believe that a rotation consisting of Penny/Perez/Weaver/Lowe/Erikson (off his good spring) was at least as good and probably better than 2003's Brown/Nomo/Ishii/Perez/Ashby +/- Alvarez? And that staff (bullpen inclusive) had one of the greatest seasons of a pitching staff in MLB history.

Not to defend Weaver or Tracy, but whaddaya want? Weaver was defending a 2-1 lead in the 6th today. He was defending a 4-2 lead against the Braves. Real aces, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez, lose lots of games when they have slim leads like that. And it wasn't like Weaver gave up the home runs to Paul Bako--Delgado and Cabrera are great hitters who you should expect to be a factor against any pitcher. After that, Weaver pretty much beat himself, but the game was still within reach of our offense.

The offense isn't giving the starters much to work with. They get the hits, but they don't score the runs. Of all the deficiences of Jim Tracy, is poor clutch hitting something you can fairly pin on him? You look at the numbers for Izzy, Kent, Choi, Bradley, Phillips, Saenz, and it sure seems like a lot more runs ought to be crossing the plate than we're seeing.

The one thing Tracy needs to do is move Drew down in the lineup until he starts hitting like Drew.

re 545: As always, I agree with a lot that Howard has to say, and disagree with other parts of it. He's preaching to the choir about Tracy's pitcher management (being fortunate enough to have attended the last two games, he missed the extensive discussion of this point). And while I agree that the team has been sloppy in some fundamentals (baserunning, defense), I'd say that the LAST thing this team needs is more bunting and trading outs for bases. This offense is built for high OPS, and it's delivering, just not always in long sequences as it did last night. When the hits and walks bunch together, we score. When they don't, we don't. But aiming for "productive outs" is almost always a bad idea ('cept, say, in the 9th inning of a 1-run game).

#548 except that if the Dodgers could manufacture that one run every other time they get a runner to 2nd or 3rd with no outs, which happened 4 times today and many many times during the last week, then we are only a run or two down even after the Marlins 5 run fifth...

I am on record in saying it's not cool to read all this fire-Tracy-now and move-Izturis-down-to-the-7th-spot talk. There wasn't a bad word said about Tracy during the first stretch. Maybe Weaver should be like most any other pitcher and not give up 3 HRs in the 5th inning? You don't even have time to warm up the pen after the first HR is hit to get him in there. What, you wanted the pen to be warming up in the bottom of the 4th? That's ridiculous. Weaver was at 70 pitches.

Either we accept Weaver as a 5-inning pitcher (which he has proven he is not) or you live with the inconsistency.

In closing, obviously Tracy has made mistakes, but last I checked almost every team has questions about their manager's decisions. You guys want to get rid of a manager that collects a better W/L every season and beats out the pythags every season? I question that decision. It sounds like you guys are just talking in the middle of a slump.

you take what you can get, a run here, a run there...add that to an occasional 3 or 4 or 5 run outburst, you have run support for the pitchers, they pitch better because they don't have to be so "fine", knowing that one mistake could be their undoing...it's (proper use of apostrophe?) a snowball effect, the whole team does better as a result...

re: #550

I don't think anyone thought any better of Tracy when they were 12-2...anyone could have managed them to victories those 2 weeks, all hitters were hitting, all pitchers were unhittable...we all knew that could not last...you have to know your personnel, and I am not sure he does...

stats are great, most of you understand and live and die by them, but you have to have a feel for the game as well, and for the "moment", and that is where Tracy lacks...

Maybe Weaver should be like most any other pitcher and not give up 3 HRs in the 5th inning? You don't even have time to warm up the pen after the first HR is hit to get him in there. What, you wanted the pen to be warming up in the bottom of the 4th? That's ridiculous. Weaver was at 70 pitches.

Go back and read the box score. He gave up three HRs in the 6th and had made 96 pitches before Tracy finally pulled him. No one said anything about warming up pitchers in the 4th. We wanted them warming in the 6th after his shaky 5th inning, not an unreasonable request.

agreed Icaros, agreed

551: Two nitpicks with your logic, Howard. First, I'd say that the prospect of manufacturing a run every other time you get a runner to 2nd base is optimistic. Most of the time, the out surrendered will lower your chances of scoring at all. Second, the old saying is that "if you play for 1 run, that's all you'll get," while again too optimistic, is correct in its implication that the big inning is made much less likely if outs are just wasted. So you can't have it both ways. On a team with dominant pitching, small ball is less of a bad idea, because you CAN win a lot of 2-1, 3-2 games. With average pitching (which is what I think the Dodgers now have), you have to play for big innings. The team is getting lots of baserunners. That will lead to lots of runs. Really. Trust me. It will. The jokes last night about "hey, save some for tomorrow" are half-right. Sometimes hits come in bunches. Other times they are "scattered."

Now, we might be able to agree on a compromise position. Since the bottom of the lineup, especially with Phillips out, is basically a power vacuum, perhaps THEY should play small ball (that is, if any of them EVER gets on base), leaving the bulk of the scoring drive to innings that start with Izzy or Choi. So yeah, if Bako walks to start an inning, have the pitcher bunt. If Edwards gets on, have Bako bunt. But otherwise, let hitters hit.

re 550,553: After Weaver's shaky 5th inning, Duaner was warming up in the bottom of the 5th. (see comment #230).
I thought, OK, Duaner will come in to start the 6th, or at least he'll be ready as soon as Weaver gives up a hit. But no, he came in after a hit, HR, HR, out, out, HR, double.

You'd think that Trace should have figured out by now that he's leaving the starters in too long.

We can sense the pitchers tiring, but Tracy cannot...

Not sure, but this may indicate a problem...I don't think I should have a better awareness of game situations than the manager...

and GoBears...go ahead and nitpick all you want...that is what we do best here...

557 -- BINGO!

557: I think you hit it right on the head, there Howard. And that's the source of the frustration - that it seems to us that we all know something that the manager doesn't know. And that shouldn't be.

You know, I've always felt I have a much better idea about what's going on, especially with the pitcher, when I watch on TV, than when I'm at the game. Since Tracy is watching from the dugout, it's not impossible that we see stuff he doesn't see. I'm sure he has a more expert eye, and of course can actually interact with his players, but managers doen't get the good-angle closeups that TV viewers get. Never thought about it before, but there might be something to it. Do they have monitors in the dugout? I've never seen any...

556-

"(see comment #230)" is possibly the funniest line I've ever read on this site. Especially when we're up to #556.

"Dodger Thoughts. It's a lifestyle. It's your life."

559,
So it's true, Steve is really Ralph Lawler.

the fact that someone has read all 561 comments means one thing, and one thing only...that person has to get a life...

Worry about what the pitch count is with Weaver, and you're going to have a lot of six run games on your hand. Weaver gets Erickson treatment. He's out on the first 83 mph pitch at the waist.

I know Weaver was the problem today but why aren't we talking about the Great Power Outage of 2005. Even our few doubles are gap shots as opposed to off the wall types. Even last night we did it with walks, singles and doubles. There is just no confidence that we can get healthy by the long ball.

564...unfortunately that 83 mph fastball always comes with at least 2 on base and is always to the 3, 4 or 5 hitter...

553 - I think that's exactly right.

Tracy as a manager is hard to define. Not in the "he's great/he sucks" way but in the way Bill James tried to do with other managers. James wrote in what I still believe to be his best book that we could learn much by measuring or keeping track of the things managers do: PH, Sacs, SB, H&R, bullpen, etc.

The two most famous Dodger managers could be classified thus (and feel free to correct or chime in):

ALSTON: James wrote that he pulled every lever imaginable and few who saw the 60's Dodgers would disagree. They bunted, they IBB'd, they would run-run-run. Everybody seemed to have a role on the team but everybody was expected to lay a bunt down. "Some of these moves were counterproductive", wrote James. "But they did give Alston control of the action." Alston's teams would routinely lead the league in IBB's until he turned on that strategy like a drunk man finding religion. The Dodgers IBB'd only nine times in 1974, a record that may never be broken.

LASORDA: Loved the H&R. Was not averse to IBB. His defenses were, ah, experimental in nature and he would ride his starters like Hidalgo. An intensely competitive man with a mouth that would make longshoremen blush who nonetheless became baseball's most notorious hugger. "He kept telling me I was one of the best shortstops in the game," said Alfredo Griffin in 1988. "You start to believe it and you start thinking that anything's possible."

Jim Tracy: Feel free to fill in, folks...

That pitch to Beckett was not exactly Drysdale in his prime. That's why all of us were shouting to pull him after the fifth.

Jim Tracy: is reactive, not proactive..

are those words??

Win Share leaders after the first 5 innings of todays game are listed below. I wrote a VB program to keep track of win shares per game, it's just a little clunky to use at the moment and I got through the first 5 innings of data. Will post the complete 9 inning list later tonight if possible. Only 9 players had a positive win share for the first 5 innings and they are.

J.Kent 0.150366814561075
M.Bradley 0.118545412690356
H.Choi 0.0986044907914697
J.Encarnacion 0.0334072811852396
J.Beckett 0.0332566981348735
J.Dillon 0.0292314151513053
C.Delgado 0.0198249716165594
J.Weaver 0.0178041083988298
D.Easley 0.00669031618104177

vr

Xeifrank

569 - that's a good start. Might not be a need to go further, now that I think about it...

By the by, I liked James' description of Lasorda about whether he was an optimist or a decision maker. An optimist was someone who would hang with a guy who was struggling. A decision maker was someone who would always make a change if he saw a problem.

Lasorda? "He was more of an impatient optimist."

Tracy's feature, as pointed out in a Baseball Prospectus story, is that he manages like a Strat-O-Matic player. He looks very carefully to see when he can exploit a favorable matchup with a seldom used player. He leans heavily on percentages. He is not quick to change players, either on offense or defense (which includes pitching).

I could be wrong, and I probably am, but Xeifrank, you just might have a little too much time on your hands...

I'm not so sure we need to push Weaver into the bullpen.
He's erratic, yes, but at 28 he's still young as pitchers go. Besides, he's such a headcase if we put him in the bullpen he may never regain confidence.
He still has got great stuff, and has shown the occasional ability to use it wisely.

To Tracy's defense (not that I am in love with him), he didnt have Gagne for a while, so everyone else had to pitch extra innings to pick up the slack, so he may have been avoiding overworking his bullpen in April/May and testing his starters to see how they can handle adversity.
Later in the season when Weaver starts getting rattled Tracy will know not to let him pitch his way out.

...just a thought (or maybe a sad rationalization)

Strat-O-Matic...what a great game that was...

#575...Tracy's formula calls for the starter to go into the 7th or late into the 6th...then a couple of one on one lefty righty matchups, then Brazoban in the 8th, Gagne in the 9th...

that's it...so if the starter struggles in the 5th or so, Tracy is like a deer in the headlights..."OMG, that's not what my book says...."

571 - the 15th decimal place really puts it all into perspective.

So what is the group opinion on a trade for Barry Zito? I've heard the A's might be interested in trading him down the road. Is this an opportunity for a dominant pitcher in the future or Jeff Weaver: Reloaded?

Good news for Bob T: Ortiz just struck out bunting with runner on base.

579: No! Please, no! Beane unloaded Mulder and Hudson because they were about to become more expensive than they were worth. He kept Zito because...he couldn't unload him! Zito is D-U-N done. I don't want any part of him.

does anyone think that Tracy tries too hard to be a "players manager"? Leaving the starters in too long, constantly playing everyone on the bench, the incessant lefty/righty matchups, etc. Is it his way of getting on his players' good sides? Even though Weaver was bitter about being left out there against Atl, don't you think most of the time the starter is going to want to stay out there while he still has a lead?

Bad news for Bob T: Pettitte struck him out

582 -- yes

Somebody yesterday said that it would be wise if every starting pitcher started by saying they had a head cold. That is looking like sage advice right now.

#579 - GoBears is right, Beane is a smart guy. He knew that Hudson were most likely starting their downsides, but were still perceived as dominant, first-tier starters, so he was able to get fair value. Zito's value was low, so I think he was hoping he could get his stuff together this year, at which point he'd be unloaded in July. I'll bet somebody gets desperate and overpays in July, regardless of how he pitches until then. Think Steinbrenner comes-a-callin'?

#585 - that would be "Hudson and Mulder were most likely..."

569 -- yes, unless the pitcher is physically ill

Right now Zito is probably at his lowest value, trade wise. He might be worth looking into now before he turns it around. True, he might not ever recover, but thats all the more reason to get him now and give only a minimum in return.
Right now I'd be willing to part with a farm prospect or two to take a chance on Zito.

587: Ah, finally a role for Lasorda on this team. Having him walk into the bullpen when the starter is warming up before the game, and parade around naked for 15 seconds or so. That should induce the requisite physical illness. Staple a photo of said spectacle to the underside of the pitcher's cap, and make him take a look before each inning.

I would prefer to skip Zito, and let the D-Backs trade for him.

588 - even if the cost-in-trade is low, the guy has a big contract, doesn't he? I thought he'd already gotten his pay day. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. I wouldn't want him for more than $1M/yr. I really think he's bad - worse than Weaver. Really.

No more five inning pitchers...Tracy can't handle the ones he's got

I just figured it out. Tracy is my sophomore year college roommate. Once, early in the semester, I asked this guy why he wasn't doing any homework at all. He said, "the sooner you get behind, the longer you have to catch up!" I knew there was something wrong with this "logic," but now I see it in Tracy's pitching decisions. He'd rather overwork the starters and have them cough up leads, because there's still time to catch up. But if the bullpen blows the lead (presumably, later) there's less time to catch up. Yes, the logic still fails, but come to think of it Tracy even LOOKS like that guy did. Holy crap!

Oh now the truth comes out. Weaver's "hurt." So this justifies leaving him in? Or what?

Ok. So Weaver has stiffness in his shoulder and Tracy let him throw 120 pitches. Any more votes for firing him now?

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20050518&content_id=1054345&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=la

#573

Bob,
That aspect of Tracy reminds me of Davey Johnson. It can be overdone, especially when it prompt Tracy to bench a hot hitter, or stay with a tired starter because in Match-Up Heaven, he's got an edge.

I think Tracy is Game Strategist-in-Chief, but leaves it up to the players to motivate themselves, either individually or collectively. He sets up "challenges" for his players, i.e. "if you're batting with a runner on third and less than two outs, you're expected to..." It also seems like Tracy is a delegator. Whoever is his hitting coach--very important. Same with Jim Colborn as pitching coach. Wallach and Colborn get a lot of credit (and Clark got a lot of blame) for what happens in the field. I can't see Lasorda or Alston wanting the share the credit or offload the blame to the same degree as Tracy does.

Phil Garner is leaving Andy Pettite in way too long. It's the top of the 5th and the DBacks have 6 runs on 11 hits and there's nobody out and runners on 1st and 3rd.

I guess Garner is counting on his potent offense in scoring 9-10 runs. Something they rarely do.

#590: Exactly. Let the Diamondbacks trade the rest of their farm system for a short-term rental (a la Sexson). There isn't going to be very good starting pitching available at the All-Star break, based on the expected free agent list. The three best starting pitchers on the list are Clemens, Burnett and Penny. It's highly unlikely that Clemens or Burnett will end up in Dodger blue at the All-Star break. Beyond those three, there are a whole lot of Jeff Weaver clones and worse.

If there is somehow other pitching available, the Dodgers may have to trade their entire AAA team to get one. The absurd free agent market for an "established" starter that was established this offseason will certainly roll over into the trade market. If we're somehow out of contention by the All-Star break, I expect we would be able to get a king's ransom for Penny.

At this point, we have more impact pitching prospects in the minors than any other organization. Unfortunately, with the exception of Edwin Jackson, all of them are in A or AA, so they're unlikely to help much this year. But, with the way the market for pitching has been trending, I'd rather stick with the mediocre inning-eaters we've got for 2005, so we can look forward to cheap, quality, arms in the future.

Somehow the Rockies and Giants are in a 2-2 game in the 8th at Coors.

Matt Herges. He's on my list.

He's not pitching now though. But Herges is on the list.

#595: Can I vote twice?

Not a 2-2 game anymore. Giants 3-2

Top 9, Col CF, Cory Sullivan (whoever that is) throws a perfect strike to catcher to nail Devi Cruz at plate to end the inning.

Cruz thrown out of game for arguing

I think the Giants will survive an inning or two without Deivi Cruz.

604: In fact, losing Cruz might increase their chances of winning.

Bob you are right. Game over 3-2 Giants.

Jayson Stark is reporting on ESPN.com that Barry Bonds is now a 24-hr IV antibiotic treatment.

His postoperative infection must be pretty nasty. This could seriously hamper his ability to come back. If Stark is right, this is no "minor" setback.

So let's reveiw the day:

Padres win. . .again. Score 8 runs and sweep Braves
D'Backs cruising against Houston 7 runs through 8 innings.
Giants beat Rocks
Dodgers lose. . .again. Score 3 runs

Geez this sucks

602 - Here's Cory: http://tinyurl.com/9qf3j

Debuted on my son's eighth birthday.

607 - Wow. I knew a guy who had a post-operative infection. I think there's a good chance Bonds may not be back this season.

Some of the unfortunate side effects of a post-operative infection can be death too. But usually not in someone of Bonds's age.

Astros cut the lead to 7-4!

Also LAT, it's only the 6th in Houston.

And the Evil One (aka Russ Ortiz) has been pulled.

For a plethora of resons, not the least of which is the infection, I do not think Barry Bonds will EVER be back!

I haven't read the Stark article but the big danger of post-operative infection, besides death, is the infection getting into the bone. If that happens, Barry's career will be over and his life will be changed forever.

Hey, I don't like him, either. But I don't want that to happen to anybody.

I may have spoken to soon (you'd think I'd have learned by now). Now 7-5

Astros cut the deficit to 7-5 in the 7th.

For anyone who cares, here is a stupider article than Plashke's on the Dodger/Angel name dispute

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7902687/

I wondered (aloud) before the season whether Bonds might not just find a way to take this year off, in the hope that the steroids thing would blow over/resolve itself. I'd say now that his probability of coming back next year is still a function of whether or not that happens. If he can play at even half his previous level, he can pass Ruth easily. Aaron might be safe, however.

I'm not trying to make anyone's night worse, but against STL, ATL, and FLA, SD just finished going 9-1. Yikes.

Internal Debate: Do I really want to find out the circumstances under which Esteban Loaiza was caught stealing at second base today?

In the words of the immortal David Clayton-Thomas:

What goes up
Must come down
spinning wheel
got to go round

The Padres will regress to the mean just like the rest of the NL West.

Loaiza was picked off and thrown out at second.

Bob, you solved my internal debate!

I didn't want to know. :)

As much as we get frustrated wathcing the Dodgers now, if we were Astros fans, we would all be jumping off of bridges.

617 - I think you're right. That article really was just as stupid as the Plaschke effort.

Repeat the CW about McCourt: check.

Take a potshot at Choi: check.

Why analyze when you can proselytize: check.

Michael Ventre ought to get his resume to the LAT post haste. He'd fit right in.

Ventre used to be a columnist at the Daily News.

7-6 DBacks with 2 outs in the 9th after a Biggio homer off of Bruney.

2 out solo shot by Biggio -- Berkman up with Astos now done 7-6.

Groupthink!

Larry Dierker has been really critical of the DBacks the whole game. He doesn't think that they're for real. He thinks they have a lot of flaws, especially in pitching.

Someone slides into first and it works!

Re: Barry Bonds

I have a close relative who is dealing with a problem similar to Bonds'. Bacterial infection growing on the bone (osteomyelitis) is no joke. The 24 hour IV antibiotic drip suggests that this is already happened, i.e. they're not trying to prevent it, they're trying to eradicate it. There's no predicting how long this will take; every case is different. But he'll be on the drip for at least another 6 weeks, I figure; toward the end it won't be 24 hours, but it will be at least once a day. It could possibly take as long as 4-5 months, again depending on the nature of the infection, and other factors that are purely individual to each patient.

More importantly, nothing else can really be done for Barry's rehab until the infection is 100 percent gone. It is a serious health threat if it is allowed to spread, so his doctor won't fool around with it.

I'm as suspicious of the cheater Barry Bonds as anyone could be, but assuming the infection story is true, there is no way he is using it to duck steroid exams. He is working now to save his knee function, and to prevent a systemwide infection that could at least hypothetically attack his brain or heart and kill him. With the care he's getting, that's unlikely, but the gravity of the situation does mean he'll be listening closely to his doctors, and baseball will be a distinctly lower priority.

P.S. Does anyone know if steroids and performance enhancers have been implicated in compromising the immune system?

Adam Everett lines out hard to Glaus to end the game with the bases loaded.

I think Arizona is definitely living on borrowed time.

San Diego probably has more time to borrow.

Curses! Brian Bruney got away.

Seems to me Seattle fan is an early candidate for spontaneous combustion too.

Looking at 629, I realize that might come across the wrong way. Roee (514), I thought that was a great and very welcome post on an important issue. Too tired to say anything intelligent (in fact I just deleted four paragraphs of much) but I think you point out a real risk in this sort of public conversation, but one that has not actually infected the discussion here too much.

OT off my own Comment: Someday, presumably after Jon writes something really provocative and uplifting about the subject, I'd like to participate in a discussion about how folks' experience of this Dodger season is different than others. In recent years, I've been what I consider a pretty dedicated diaspora fan. But the leap from reading scores/news and watching/gamedaying a game here or there to fully immersing, in real time, in many/most games together with a community of sharp, informed, decent people has been pretty something. Pretty special, actually, though maybe that's too sappy to say. (Forgive me; I've been on an Enders the last two days.)

My latest post may be tangentially related to #636 ...

You know, one recent debate we had around here was whether Saenz should have batted for Choi the other night, and one of the guys who defended the move was Choi-lovin', Tracy-hatin' me. I think most of us try to calls them like we sees them -- even the Grabowski Guy.

mush, not much in 636.

and "intentikonal walk" should really be something . . .

638 -- One version of the deleted mush prominently noted how even Hang 'Em High Haskins and given JT a good deal of credit in different situations and at different times (forcing us all to endure, I mean share, four months of handwringing over your sitename).

Oh, and 536, really really LOL. Woke my wife, who's upstairs and two hours dead to the world.

We're all happier when we embrace our callings in life. I think JT is breaking down from the hyper-scrutiny. :)

I'm bored and paranoid, so I decided to do an entirely subjective comparison of the Dodgers and Padres position-by-position. The summary is that I think the Padres are a slightly better team, though it's close. We are certainly not nearly as far apart as our 3-7 and 9-1 records against STL, ATL, and FLA would suggest. I think our depth and salary flexibility come July should make up for the difference. If you are also bored, feel free to keep reading and critique my analysis.

The Padres have a true ace in Peavy whereas Penny is likely a #2 starter at best. The teams match up pretty well 2-4 (Eaton vs. Lowe, Williams vs. Perez, Lawrence vs. Weaver), with maybe a slight edge for the Dodgers. Each team has had a gaping hole for a 5th starter, though the Padres may have just filled theirs. Tim Stauffer was called up for the Padres and has pitched well while Tim Redding is on the DL. It's unfortunate that Edwin Jackson is not in a position to similarly contribute for the Dodgers. I can't see any reason why the Padres would let Redding anywhere near the mound when he's healthy again, though stranger things have happened (see Nomo last year and Erickson this year). Both teams have a strong bullpen. The Padres bullpen is likely stronger. The edge for Brazoban and Gagne is nullified if our starting pitching continues to fall apart, and we're forced to rely on our middle-relievers.

Both teams are getting relatively poor production out of 3B and one OF position (LF for LA and CF for SD). Both teams are solid offensively and defensively in RF. Drew is currently slumping, but he and Giles are very similar players. Both teams have good, young shortstops that are contributing offensively. The rest of the offense seems to balance out, with the edge at 2B for the Dodgers made up for by the edge at C for the Padres.

Over the full season, the Dodgers should be able to make up ground due to age, organizational depth, and flexibility. The Padres have an older team, which could lead to injuries, though the Dodgers have been hit harder on the DL so far. The Dodgers have more depth on the roster and in the minors to deal with injuries. The Dodgers additionally have salary flexibility and a well-stocked farm system to make the team better come July. The Padres farm system on the other hand was ranked 27th by Baseball America.

Here's the side-by-side version:

P1: Jake Peavy vs. Brad Penny (edge Padres)
P2: Adam Eaton vs. Derek Lowe (even)
P3: Woody Williams vs. Odalis Perez (slight edge Dodgers)
P4: Brian Lawrence vs. Jeff Weaver (even)
P5: Tim Redding / Tim Stauffer vs. Scott Erickson (edge Padres)
Bullpen vs. Bullpen (edge Padres)
Closer: Trevor Hoffman vs. Eric Gagne (edge Dodgers)
C: Ramon Hernandez vs. Jason Phillips (edge Padres)
1B: Phil Nevin vs. Hee Sop Choi / Olmedo Saenz (slight edge Dodgers)
2B: Mark Loretta vs. Jeff Kent (edge Dodgers)
SS: Khalil Greene vs. Cesar Izturis (even)
3B: Sean Burroughs vs. Antonio Perez / Mike Edwards / Olmedo Saenz (slight edge Padres)
LF: Ryan Klesko vs. Jayson Werth / Ricky Ledee (edge Padres)
CF: Dave Roberts / Xavier Nady vs. Milton Bradley (edge Dodgers)
RF: Brian Giles vs. J.D. Drew (even)
Bench vs. Bench (slight edge Dodgers)

even: P2, P4, SS, RF (4)
slight edge Padres: 3B (1)
slight edge Dodgers: P3, 1B, Bench (3)
edge Padres: P1, P5, Bullpen, C, LF (5)
edge Dodgers: Closer, 2B, CF (3)

I don't want to read 650 posts... did Tracy leave Weaver in too long again?

I like Khalil Greene as much as the next guy, but do you really think he's equal to Izturis?

Eric, when I originally wrote it up I had Izturis with a slight edge but then waivered. I think they're both going to end up with OPS in the neighborhood of .750. Greene is currently at .746 and Izturis is currently at .817, though last year, Izturis ended at .711 and Greene at .795. I could see either one being better offensively by season's end, though Greene may have a better shot because he takes a few more walks and has some pop. Defensively, last year Izturis had about a 5 run edge from BP, but he's been making errors at a ridiculous rate this season. Since I don't expect that to continue, I should give Izturis a slight edge for his defense. Overall, maybe a slight edge for Izturis, but it's close.

#643: Do you really have to ask? Weaver gave up an RBI single to Beckett in the 5th keying FJT's Grabowski Principle. In the 6th, Weaver gave up a single, 2 HRS, a popout, a flyout, a HR, and a double before finally being pulled. Sanchez was warming up in the 5th and was ready to come in anytime in the 6th.

Give my apologies to the wife, Sam.