Meanwhile, Jim Tracy, in this morning's L.A. Times, has reached a new level in inventing creative reasons not to play Choi.

"First baseman Hee-Seop Choi did not start because of what Tracy called 'mild stiffness' in his left forearm. Said Tracy: 'It could be from the volume of swings he's taking.'"

No need to fire Buddy Carlyle since he's off the 40-man roster again after the Dodgers sent Navarro back down and called up Mike Rose. Carlyle was DFA'd to make room for Rose.

Gosh, I hope Jon gets better by the end of June. Going on vacation then.

Get well soon, Jon. I feel like we've been saying that all too often. Get some rest and don't worry about us. Just give us our gameday threads and we'll keep this thing going.

Hey Eric, I've seen your new book, "100 Years of the World Series: 1903-2004", twice at the bookstore. Congratulations. It looks like a good one. Once I catch up my current baseball reading (I'm about to start "Baseball's All-Time Best Sluggers"), I'll give it a go.

I kept telling people,
"I was not 'Deep Throat!'"

Now do you people believe me?

http://tinyurl.com/bgxk9

I think Bob is too tall to pass for Harry Reems anyway.

You have to admit that Mark Felt isn't a bad porn name.

But we'll try to keep this discussion G-rated.

Or at worst PG-13.

Take your time Jon. Don't make the Dodgers a life and death issue. It screws up the real priorities. As Fearing Blue said, just open up the game day threads until decompressed. The site will take care of itself.

Well, you forget that I actually like writing Dodger Thoughts, so it's not that simple. But thanks for understanding.

Baseball question (forgive the intrusion): The RFK foul poles are mostly painted yellow. However, a small portion of the poles just above the outfield wall are painted green/black. Does the color of the pole matter in determining if the ball that strikes the pole is fair or foul?

Yesterday, a ball hit the little green/black portion of the pole. The umps first called it a home run, then reversed and called it foul. Most folks have assumed the umps just missed the call -- i.e., that the umps wrongly concluded that the ball never hit the pole. Could it be instead that non-yellow equals foul? Tried to look for the RFK ground rules, but am not finding them. (No doubt that last line will result in someone finding them in ten seconds or less.)

Good luck with your juggling, Jon.

Thanks for the kind words, Fearing. I look forward to the day when I have to write a new chapter about the Dodgers for the next version...

Another silly thing about the foul poles at RFK is that they're not attached to the outfield wall, but are several feet behind it. After watching the replay of Jordan's hit about a thousand times, I still couldn't tell whether it hit the pole, or simply fell in the dead space between the pole and the wall. Either way, it should have been a home run. The rulebook makes no reference to what color the foul pole should be.

D.C. is still new at this whole baseball thing, so I guess it'll take them a while to figure out things like how to properly lay out a baseball field.

Weird catcher swap (#2). Why'd they call Navarro up and never play him? Did JT refuse? Or, since Carlyle had to go to make room for Rose, maybe they just hadn't decided that yet and never intended to play Navarro unless absolutely necessary.

The pitching has been bad. But either a bunch of guys got old fast (Alvarez, Carrara), or nearly everyone is just underperforming. Really, other than maybe Brazoban, has there been a single pitcher performing above expectations? Some guys we knew were iffy (Erickson, Houlton, and the injury-replacements Carlyle & Schmoll), but most others (Weaver, Perez, Sanchez, Alvarez, even Gagne) are not as good as they have been in the past. And still others have just been hurt. I'm not sure there's much out there, so I think our best hope is that everyone improves toward what was expected of them, while the young guys spend the year getting better.

At no point did I think this was a contending team. I did think, after LA's fast start and SD's slow one, that the Dodgers would win the division, with SD the only challenger. I still think it will come down to those two, but right now, anyway, the Dodgers seem to have more flaws than the Padres.

I thought it was really weird that they called up Navarro in the first place. Rose seemed the obvious choice; he's a better player at this point in his career, and he doesn't have the service time/eventual free agency issues that Navarro does.

Perhaps Bako will be out longer than expected so the Dodgers preferred a player with a little more experience and who won't have his development stunted by sitting on the bench.

Or maybe the Dodgers should just trade with Seattle for their new #1 catcher: Pat Borders.

I'm going to make a brief attempt at optimism:

- We haven't found a fifth starter
- Gagne was hurt
- Odalis Perez has been hurt
- Weaver might be pitching hurt
- Bradley is hurt
- Drew, Kent and Choi have all had significant slumps
- Valentin is hurt and 3B has mostly been a black hole
- the Padres have been unsustainably hot ...

... AND YET it's only May 31, we're still over .500, we're within shouting distance of the Padres and we have 12 games left in this homestand against mostly subpar teams. Let's not panic. We still have a decent chance to win the division.

The Padres' pitching outside of Peavy remains terrible. Adam Eaton is acceptable this year. If he falls, the team is gone. Let's be gutsy and put in one or two more prospects into the rotation. If Weaver continues to be a problem, let's release or trade him. There's no way that Weaver will be on the Dodgers next year anyway.

The Tigers are the only bad team on this homestand. Milwaukee isn't too bad, although it's possible that 2 more games in San Diego may send them into oblivion. I think the Dodgers would be facing Sheets this time around. The Brewers starters are solid and the bullpen isn't much worse than the Dodgers with the exception that the Brewers don't have a Gagne.

The Dodgers have never lost a game to the Tigers. They are the only team the Dodgers have a perfect record against in games that count.

The Dodgers have never played the Twins in the regular season, but I'm putting their alltime record against Minnesota at 4-3 for the 1965 World Series.

Last game I checked, Weaver didn't pitch all that poorly.

I don't think Weaver is a hopeless case, although his VORP right now is an unpleasant -0.3

The best in the majors is Roger Clemens at 35.8.

I'm not panicking. Not at all. Indeed, that was the point of my post - that especially with our pitchers, performance so far has been worse than we had a right to expect. Which would mean that reversion to the mean can only help. And I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Derek Thompson. It'd be nice if he could stick.

Just to clarify, the Dodgers have also won all 3 regular season meetings against Cleveland, but I'm dinging them for the 1920 World Series.

I have the tally at 5-5.

17.

I agree. I've been saying all along give the guys in AA and AAA a shot at the #4 and #5 spots in the rotation. Hogwash, this talk about worrying about starting the clock on young players. There's a time and place for using your best minor league players, and this is one of those times. Because Perez is hurt, Erickson flopped, Alvarez is flopping, Weaver flops more times than not, the bullpen is mediocre at best and only Penny and Lowe give us much hope for a win. Perhaps calling up minor league pitchers isn't the answer, but if you don't try, you will never know. Obviously, what we have now isn't the answer. So I'm all in favor of going down a different path. I say keep Derek Thompson up, call up Billingsley (dump Erickson), and call up Jackson and put him in the bullpen (dump Carrara).

It's so easy to be a tuesday morning QB.

vr

Xei

A question I posed a week or so ago and didn't get a response to.

Q: Who was the last Dodgers pitcher to finish in the top 3 in Cy Young balloting?

vr

Xei

Tonights Over/Under for Brad Penny.

7 IPs.

Will repost it on the game thread once it appears. Please feel free to place your virtual bets.

vr

Xei

At this point I'm concerned, not worried.

Anybody else hear Hacksaw's rant about how the Dodgers need to trade for a superstar slugger? Could he have been more off-base? He mentions how we have started 6 3B in the last 7 weeks, but has he noticed that the current one is tearing the cover off the ball? And that he was going to be part of the 3B platoon to begin with? Why would we give up the farm to get someone like Chavez when there are so many young prospects who could take over soon enough(Guzman, Aybar, Perez, LaRoche)? And what's all this talk about Mike Sweeney? Has anyone noticed how productive the 1B platoon has been so far, not to mention the inevitable switching leagues learning curve?

All we need before the deadline is another starting pitcher, possibly a solid middle reliever. I have no idea who's available, but I know the Mets will have a bit of a surplus when Trachsel comes back, maybe they could make a run at him. I have complete faith that the offense will be more than adequate and our bullpen (now that everyone's in their right place) will be great. Once Odalis is healthy, the rotation should be quite good as I see Weaver coming around like he did last year. If Thompson can continue to produce then that's just gravy, then maybe we could even trade Weaver to the Rangers or something.

"Q: Who was the last Dodgers pitcher to finish in the top 3 in Cy Young balloting?"
---------

Um, Eric Gagne.

I'll take the over on Penny.

Has anybody noticed that, despite the fact that it's been 15 years since the Dodgers played in the World Series, all 5 members of our starting rotation entering 2005 had played on World Series teams?

#23 - Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm going with Gagne circa 18 months ago.

17, 15, it all seems the same when it's been that long.

In terms of position players, what defensive holes do we have? Unless there's an outfield injury (it seems like one's inevitable this season) there's no place to put a "slugger" if we were to aquire one.

The only positions that we could potentially fill with a slugger would be LF & 3B if we packaged Werth or APerez.

I don't think more offense is necessary or likely.

I wasn't aware that the Dodgers had a 5th member of the rotation.

read the post more carefully

"23. Xeifrank
A question I posed a week or so ago and didn't get a response to.

Q: Who was the last Dodgers pitcher to finish in the top 3 in Cy Young balloting?"

The above poster noted Gagne... but your earlier question was :

Q: Who was the last Dodgers STARTING pitcher to finish in the top 3 in Cy Young balloting?

My Originally guess was Hideo Nomo who had some good years early on and one good year after his return... but he finished 4th twice...

My next guess was Orel's dream season of 88, but this was also wrong.

Brown was in the top 10 once...

But alas, Ramon Martinez finished 2nd in CY Young voting in 1990 behing the "legendary" Doug Drabek...

Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV
+--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
1 Doug Drabek PIT 23 118 120 0.98 | 22-6 231 2.76 1.06 131
2 Ramon Martinez LAD 1 70 120 0.58 | 20-6 234 2.92 1.10 223

From Baseball Reference.

I'm guessing that you are hinting that while the Dodgers have always been mentioned when you talk about teams with good pitching, that it has been a long time since a homegrown starting pitcher has done anything special. While I agree, the Dodgers have post-Fernando/Orel have never been known for a dominant #1 starter, but they have been known as a good top to bottom rotation filled with capable guys that kept you IN the game. Unfortunately this year they lack the top to bottom aspect.

Here's what I think is a relatively easy question: What do the following players have in common? (Besides playing for the Dodgers)
Milton Bradley
Jim Gott
Hubie Brooks
Brett Butler
Dick Calmus
Bobby Castillo
Willie Crawford
Bobby Darwin
Eric Davis
Chris Donnels
Chris Gwynn
Tom Hutton
Ken Landreaux
Eddie Murray
Bob Ojeda
Ed Palmquist
Larry Sherry
Bill Singer
Duke Snider
Darryl Strawberry
Derrel Thomas
Danny Walton
Jeff Weaver
Kevin Elster
Brent Cookson
Don Drysdale
Mike Fetters
Todd Zeile
Rick Auerbach

apologies...

A couple of things...

1. Did anyone read the piece on ESPN.com about how saves are overrated? It actually uses last Saturday's game as a specific example.

2. Suppose that (and realize that this is in my wildest dreams) Derek Thompson and Ryan Rupe remain passable starters for the rest of the year (if they can at least keep the other team from scoring so many runs that the Dodgers are out of the game by the third inning). Heck, give Houlton a chance to prove that he belongs on the 25 man roster. When Odalis returns, he would solidify the rotation. As much as people complain about him, he is a good pitcher. Nobody complained about him at the beginning of the year when he was doing well or at the end of last year (not counting the playoffs) when he was really the only reliable starter on the Dodgers. Dessens and Alvarez return to the bullpen, which removes Erickson and maybe Carrara. Dessens, Alvarez, Sanchez, Wunsch, Brazoban, and Gagne looks like it would be a solid bullpen. Then the Dodgers would have the luxury of adding an extra man to the bench.

Before you tear me apart, realize that I am only dreaming and fully expect Houlton and Erickson to remain useless and worthless in the bullpen.

Sorry for the length.

Re 32 - Operation aquire Roy Halladay commence....

#33 - They are all from the greater Los Angeles area.

All from Southern California?

more specifically, BORN in L.A.

Yes, according to BBref, those are guys born inside the city limits of L.A. and have also played for the Los Angeles Dodgers. There are a few guys from L.A. who only played in Brooklyn.

I thought of this when I read a story about how Tyler Walker is the 9th San Francisco Giant to be from San Francisco. I figured that there would be more from L.A. because of the size of the city and the quality of amateur baseball played here.

Is the Harbor City hospital where Milton Bradley born actually in L.A. and not in some unincorporated area?

Mohican -- I'd love to get Halladay, too, but he's in the 2nd year of a 4-year contract, and he plays for a team that has a better record than the Dodgers do. I suspect any inquiry into his availability would be met with loud guffaws by Ricciardi.

The Dodgers' current opponent, the Cubs, have one native Angeleno on the roster in Sergio Mitre.

26.

My bad. The question was suppose to read which Dodgers STARTING pitcher was the last one to finish in the top 3 in the Cy Young balloting. That's how I posed the question on an earlier thread, just messed up on this one.

vr

Xei

32.

Thanks. That was the question. :)

vr

Xei

Answer to #33 trivia question.

A: 29 baseball players who have never been in my kitchen before.

vr

Xei

Heard part of Jim Rome's (not one of my favorite persons in the world) interview with Eric Byrnes this morning on the drive to work. JR asked Byrnes what he thought of the whole Moneyball thing. Byrnes said he didn't believe in the numbers and that he perceived baseball as more of a human element than a numbers one. He then said if he had a lifetime average of .300 with a 2-2 count that he would never try to get the count to 2-2 so he'd have a better chance of getting a hit. He said he loves to swing at the first pitch. I guess he only read the Cliffnotes version, or has a problem with reading retention. Why do so many people misunderstand and or make fun of Moneyball? I once heard a psychologist (not mine :)) explain that we often make fun of things we don't understand. I guess that could be why I tend to make fun of the French.

vr

Xei

41 - I'm pretty skeptical about his availability too... he may be one of the few things that Toronto fans come to see

#47 -- especially since the Rogers Center Hotel instituted that guest conduct code.

I have Rick Auerbach over to my place all the time.
It's not a bad list when you consider that there are three Hall of Famers on the list.

And one guy who could have been one if not for his self-destructive behavior (Strawberry) and another who had his career short-circuited by injuries and illness (Davis).

But will Mike Fetters ever get a Hall of Fame vote?

Rogers Centre!
They're Canadian and spell things funny.

The Dodgers and Cubs both have Canadians as their closers.
Wednesday the Cubs are supposed to start lefty John Koronka.

Is the Harbor City hospital where Milton Bradley born actually in L.A. and not in some unincorporated area?

The Kaiser Foundation Hospital, at 25825 S Vermont Ave, Harbor City, is actually in the City of Los Angeles (colored white in my Thomas Guide). Milton Bradley was born in Harbor City, but grew up in Long Beach.

Yesterday, Vin said something about Jeff Kent's birthplace. Kent said he spent only the first 12 hours of his life in Bellflower (born at another Kaiser hospital, I would assume), and that he grew up in Huntington Beach.

My wife and some girlfriends are going to see John Smoltz v. Tony Armas Jr. at RFK tomorrow night. Anyone know any fun facts about either of those guys I can pass along? (Fun in a "once pitched a minor league game wearing women's underwear" kind of way more than a "had the best K/9 over his first five A ball starts since . . . " kind of way.)

There are a few players listed as being born in "San Fernando". However, there isn't a hospital in the city of San Fernando. I wonder if people born at Holy Cross Hospital, now Providence Holy Cross, would put "San Fernando" down as the birthplace, although the hospital is in Mission Hills.

The only LA Dodger among the players born in San Fernando is Larry White.

And you know, I almost googled "Rogers Center" to check just that issue. Lazy. Also, I should not have capitalized Hotel in that comment, because that is not the formal name of the property.

I'm a friend of the guy who runs the Blue Jays website, so he emails me a lot with his cockamamie spellings of words.

Toronto's hitting isn't the problem, it's their lack of pitching. Who would they get in return for their best pitcher? Our best pitcher (Gagne)? Our best pitching prospects (Tiffany, Billingsley)? Their GM is cut from the same cloth as our GM; he wants the prospects we covet as well.

Halladay is a great pitcher, but we don't match up well as trading partners IMO. Plus, it's not even June yet. Too early to pull off a significant trade.

Not to flog the dead horse again, but I'd rather see Edwin Jackson taking his lumps at the major league level instead at AAA.

It's official I guess.

The Washington Post (with quotes from Woodward and Bradlee) say that Mark Felt was indeed "Deep Throat".

I feel so let down now. I need a new mystery. I wanted it to come out with a lot more dramatic buildup. Maybe like a Fox reality show or something.

#33- Bob, nice list, although some of these guys grew up in other cities besides LA (Singer/Pomona, Gott&Hutton/Pasadena area,
Babo Castillo/Alhambra,Snider/Compton etc).
The biggest geographic stretch was Dick Calmus, born in LA but from Tulsa (according to my 65 Yearbook stashed here in my office).

This list is much more amusing than contemplating another game featuring both Alvarez and Erickson.

John Smoltz once burned himself because he tried to iron his shirt while wearing it.

Tony Armas is, so far as I know, one of two MLB players for whom every syllable in his name is a body part. (His father is the other.)

As the A's continue to sink in the AL West, would it be pure folly to think that DePo could swing a deal with Beane for Zito? Maybe send a package of Dodger farm hands that includes Edwin Jackson? That doesn't help Beane and the A's right now, but the 2005 A's appear to be a lost cause.

Is there any reason to think Zito is better than the guys we have now?

DePo rightly refused to trade Edwin Jackson for Tim Hudson, he's not going to trade Jackson and others for the A's version of Jeff Weaver, Barry Zito. I don't know what's the matter with some of you people.

I would rather have Edwin for next five or six years than Zito for the rest of this one. You can discount potential all you want, but I think that Edwin's potential is more valuable than what Zito could bring to the team.

I happen to think Zito is quite a bit better than Alvarez, Erickson, Thompson or any of our other number 5 options. And I think he's measurably better than Odalis and Weaver, too.

Kip Wells is also better than most of our number 5 options right now, and I bet that Depo could get him without giving up Edwin.

An LA Times story about Calmus said that he moved to Oklahoma when he was four months old.

If it was Depo who pulled the plug on Jackson for Hudson, then it was a mistake. Even if Jackson reaches full potential, will he be better than what Hudson is right now, and what Hudson will be for the next five or six years?

The list of "can't miss" Dodger prospects is very long. The list of "can't miss" Dodger prospects that have actually amounted to something is very short.

Waiting on Dodger prospects to pan out can be a bit like waiting for UFOs to land in your backyard.

If you can get a young major league equivalent right now, then get it.

Re: 46
That was Eric Chavez giving his muddled opinion of Moneyball. I imagine Chavez agreeed with the concept of judging players by their stats when he signed his $66M deal.

And how dare you all bring up Bradley's birthplace again without mentioning bigcpa was born there!

#66 Bob, assuming the Times was accurate in '63, I thought people moved AWAY from the dustbowl to LA, not the opposite.

As for Zito, the Dodgers are more likely to deal for a role player like the Cubs' Glendon Rusch or Gary Glover of Milwaukee than a big ticket like Zito. Even Ted Lilly is too expensive.

67:

I am all for Depo acquiring another starting pitcher by trading prospects, but Beane wanted more than just Jackson for Hudson. IIRC, it seemed like Beane wanted more from the Dodgers for Hudson than he got from the Braves.

At this point, however, Jackson's value is low enough that it is not worth trading him. Beane would want Jackson and others for Zito. Depo will spend prospects, but he won't waste them. He won't allow Beane to charge him for Barry Zito circa 2001.

Why not trade Aybar, his Vegas-inflated stats, and Loney for Kip Wells. With Dessens and Alvarez back in the bullpen (and Erickson and Carrara out of it, hopefully), the Dodgers would need the starter to go five or six innings max. Lowe, Penny, Perez, Wells, and Weaver is not a bad rotation.

1. I root, but do not believe this is our year (at least not for serious contention).

2.Some people (not necessarily any in dodger thoughts) have questioned whether or not Weaver should remain in the rotation (and if we should trade him). I think Weaver has great makeup, good stuff, and only suffers from confidence issues (which can be improved over time). Even if Weaver has a tough season I think we'd be doing ourselves a disservice to push him out of the rotation.

....anyone else in Dodger Thoughts born in Dublin, Ireland?

After looking at his career GB/FB ratio, I've reconsidered on Zito, although that yakker of his is a thing of beauty. It would be a treat to watch him pitch every fifth game.

70, yes, Kip Wells and his 1.51 career GB/FB ratio would probably be more effective in Dodger Stadium, and he'd come cheaper.

Dick Calmus was born in 1944, so I assume that Daddy Calmus and the Army had something to say about where he grew up.

#53 There are a few players listed as being born in "San Fernando". However, there isn't a hospital in the city of San Fernando. I wonder if people born at Holy Cross Hospital, now Providence Holy Cross, would put "San Fernando" down as the birthplace, although the hospital is in Mission Hills.

Isn't Mission Hills a relatively new place name? And it's an area in the city of LA that is unknown to most people outside of LA. Mission Hills gets its name from the Mission San Fernando Rey de España. (put that in there so I could use the ñ. :))

There are also other Mission Hillses in California, including an area near Lompoc and Mission Hills 92103 (San Diego).

#73-Bob, maybe you can use your influence in downtown LA to get Plaschke to give Calmus a Roy Gleason type column, since his name and fame have been resurrected in DT. Other suggestions, "Rex Hudson, the Man, the Myth", "Mike Judd, threw harder than Ashley and Wynona."

Not that it matters, but the San Fernando Mission is not actually in that city, but in LA.

Game chat thread is open ... just a different place to talk about the same stuff :)