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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
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11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

May 31 Open Chat: Fedoras
2005-05-31 16:11
by Jon Weisman

Today's Game

* * *

The other day, Vinny was talking about how fans used to come to ballgames in professional clothes, wearing fedoras and the like. You've seen them in all the old-time pictures and clips.

Can anyone of a certain age describe when this practice ended, and how long the transition from full-fedora to no-fedora took? Was it different in different cities? Did the Coliseum or Dodger Stadium ever see fedoras? When did T-shirts and baseball hats become the rule instead of the exception?

* * *

The Braves have designated Raul Mondesi for assignment.

You know, back in the days of fedoras, a guy like ballplayer/spy Moe Berg - now he was truly designated for assignment.

* * *

Good times continue in Arizona, but even so, Jim McLennan at AZ Snakepit is debating "Which is worse: Shawn Green or Russ Ortiz?" The conclusion is that although Ortiz might be slightly worse on paper, the relative lack of alternative starting pitching as opposed to outfield candidates makes Green the bigger bust.

Comments (421)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-05-31 16:30:07
1.   Humma Kavula
Re: fedoras. The conventional wisdom is that men wore fedoras right up until 1960, when JFK was inaugurated sans chapeau. The story I have heard is that men's hats immediately went out of style.

I do not know if this is actually true or not (well, JFK wasn't wearing a hat when he was inaugurated, but I don't know for sure that that's what changed the style).

I also do not know what effect, if any, this had on baseball fan attire.

2005-05-31 16:33:50
2.   Marty
Pure speculation, but I'm thinking fedoras started losing favor in the early fifties about the same time as rock and roll and rebel actors such as Brando and Dean started getting popular. Seems like that generation just never wore them.
2005-05-31 16:36:33
3.   Icaros
What's for dinner tonight, Marty?
2005-05-31 16:48:21
4.   Marty
I'm still at work (working hard mind you) and haven't thought much about it. It's looking like a boring menu of leftover pozole tonight. Though the pozole did turn out great and is usually better re-heated. I think I'll try out a Syrah I found at Trader Joes. I can't remember the name of the vintner but will post it if it turns out to be good.
2005-05-31 16:57:59
5.   Sam DC
You guys sure have started following orders -- a new thread is announced and Bam!, everyone runs into the next room.

So I'm posting my thanks to Eric for the trivia bits here. The ironing one is great, though when I pass it along, my wife is very likely to say "Wasn't that you?"

2005-05-31 17:00:32
6.   Xeifrank
Carried over from previous thread.

Over/Under tonight for Brad Penny is 7 IPs.

Place your virtual bets.



2005-05-31 17:01:45
7.   Xeifrank
Wonder if Choi starts tonight? Sure hope so. See you around the 4th inning. Please get us a lead by the time I log in.



2005-05-31 17:21:14
8.   Bob Timmermann
Under on Penny.
2005-05-31 17:26:16
9.   Bob Timmermann
Random Dodger game callback

May 31, 1937

The second largest crowd in Polo Grounds history, 61,756, filed in on a Monday afternoon to watch a doubleheader between inter-borough rivals Brooklyn and New York. The main attraction in the first game was the King, Carl Hubbell, who was riding a record 24-game winning streak dating back to July 13, 1936. But the Dodgers ended Hubbell's string, knocking him out in the 4th en route to a 10-3 victory. In the anticlimactic nightcap, the Giants scored a run in the bottom of the ninth to earn a split with a 5-4 win.

The 1937 Dodgers were not a fearsome squad and were in fourth place when the day ended and finished the year 62-91, 33 ½ games behind the pennant-winning Giants and in sixth place. New manager Burleigh Grimes was not much an improvement for the dismissed Casey Stengel.

Future Hall of Famer Heinie Manush led Brooklyn's attack on the season batting .333 and second baseman Cookie Lavagetto finished at .282 and led the team with 8 homers. The pitching staff was a disaster. One year after leading the NL in strikeouts, Van Lingle Mungo pitched in just 25 games. Another future Hall of Famer on his last legs, Waite Hoyt got into 27 games. Max Butcher and Luke Hamlin led the team with 11 wins win each. The Dodgers had an atrocious 26-52 record in road games.

Manush was the hero on this day in May. In the doubleheader he managed to get seven straight hits, going 7 for 9 on the day, including a triple. Manush had tied a National League record for consecutive hits in a doubleheader. Joe Medwick had seven straight in a doubleheader in 1936. Pinky Higgins would then have an 8 for 8 doubleheader for the Red Sox in 1938 to set the major league record, that still stands.

In between games, Hubbell was presented with his National League MVP Award for 1936 from Babe Ruth.

In the nightcap, the Dodgers, who got a hit in all nine innings of the first game, got a hit in each of the first eight innings, but it was only good for four runs. The Giants tied the game in the sixth on a 2-run homer by shortstop Dick Bartell and then won it in the 9th after the Dodgers made two errors and first baseman Johnny McCarthy singled in the winning run. The Dodgers stranded 25 runners in the doubleheader, 16 in the first game and 9 in the second.

The win over Hubbell was one of the few victories the Dodgers managed over their rivals. They went 6-16 against the Giants in 1937. But the Giants were at the end of a run as one of the dominant teams in the National League dating back to 1933. The Giants had won three of the last five National League pennants and one World Series. But the Giants were on their way down. And despite the dismal 1937, the Dodgers were putting together a few pieces needed to become respectable in Lavagetto and acquiring pitcher Freddie Fitzsimmons from the Giants in midseason.

But success was still a ways off. Changes in the front office and with the manager would be needed.

Thanks to the NY Times, and Retrosheet

2005-05-31 17:31:42
10.   gvette
I"ll take the over on Penny tonight.

Fedoras, for the GQ/DT readers-The highlight films for the Dodgers WS in 59, and 63 show a lot of men in ties, and some in fedoras,although more so in Chicago and NY than in LA.

By the 65/66 WS films, a lot less LA fans in fedoras and ties, although some are actually wearing Dodgers' strawhats of some kind for sun protection along with short sleeve button down shirts. A notable exception (of course) is Frank Sinatra, pictured at Game 1 of the 66 series in a three piece suit smoking a pipe with various other Sinatras!

Fedoras and suits for ballgames sounds strange now, but so do those pictures of people in formal wear gambling in 50's/60's era Las Vegas casinos.

2005-05-31 17:31:44
11.   Christina
Under - 6 2/3 IPs.
2005-05-31 17:33:17
12.   Jim Hitchcock
I too had heard the story Humma Kavula relates.

Oh, and Bob, no offense...but it's starting to look like it's Marty's on Thanksgiving.

2005-05-31 17:38:00
13.   Bob Timmermann
Marty and I actually live very near to each other we've discovered. You can come visit both of us!
2005-05-31 17:40:22
14.   Sam DC
Have true doubleheaders joined Fedoras and smoking jackets by the wayside or do they still pop up (rainout reschedules?)? I travel pretty regularly for work with a fellow who -- every single time we fly -- bemoans the modern dressed-down traveler. "I guess the phrase 'jet set' has completely lost its meaning," he laments. ("God forbid," I usually respond, "ordinary folks should be able to see their grandparents across state lines." I don't own a fedora, but if I did I would enjoy pulling it out for these trips.
2005-05-31 17:44:06
15.   gvette
Sam, I'd bet being better dressed never helped anyone scramble for a better seat on a Southwest Flight
2005-05-31 17:47:02
16.   Sam DC
True, true. And since today's modern traveler must carry his entire wardrobe and home office onto the plane (that is what I bemoan every single time we fly), wearing studier, flexier clothes probably make a good deal of sense.
2005-05-31 17:55:31
17.   GoBears
Betting the over on 7.0 IP is really betting on a blowout win, isn't it? With Brazoban for the 8th and Gagne for the 9th, neither suffering from overuse (to put it gently), I can't imagine a starter going more than 7 unless he's pitching a shutout or winning a blowout. So I'll take the under, by process of elimination.
2005-05-31 18:05:06
18.   Humma Kavula
I will take the under and I will watch the game in my grey felt fedora.
2005-05-31 18:07:28
19.   Linkmeister
By 1984 when I was on UAL to NY and then on to London, the flying attire was pretty casual. A few years after that I was regularly flying between HNL and LAX; jeans and polo shirt were my norm, and I was kinda upscale.
2005-05-31 18:14:00
20.   Humma Kavula
More on the fedora:

2005-05-31 18:15:44
21.   Linkmeister
I think the fedora could make a comeback if Matt Drudge didn't wear one (or at least show himself on his site wearing one). I know I'd like one.
2005-05-31 18:22:44
22.   Bob Timmermann
But JFK wore a hat to his inauguration.

James Bond wore a hat I believe in the first two films of the principal series. Sean Connery had a hat during "Dr. No" and "From Russia With Love" I believe.

P.S. I had crafter a really clever joke based on the name of the actor who played Dr. No, but when I double checked, I found out that he spelled his last name Wiseman, not Weisman. So Jon misses out on a nickname.

2005-05-31 18:23:03
23.   Bob Timmermann
Oh, for JFK and hats see
2005-05-31 18:23:07
24.   Jon Weisman
Thanks, Humma. I actually have a fedora of my own, sort of as a joke, and it's really beat up, but I sort of think they're cool.
2005-05-31 18:24:17
25.   Jon Weisman
Dr. No - great movie. The movie where James Bond sings.
2005-05-31 18:25:06
26.   Jon Weisman
Of course, From Russia with Love and Goldfinger were the best. To think what a fan I used to be of those movies - and I read all the books too - but now they come out and I completely ignore them.
2005-05-31 18:28:57
27.   Steve
The last Bond movie was the worst. Flat awful. Something about North Koreans and Madonna. Also featuring the worst of the title songs. The whole exercise was a movie-sized shark jump.
2005-05-31 18:30:51
28.   DallasRPI
I wrote a Dodgers news aggregator that checks all the major sources for new articles every hour, wondering if you guys have any feedback or know of media outlets that I'm missing (minor league news papers?).

2005-05-31 18:31:35
29.   Bob Timmermann
I so desperately wanted to leave the last James Bond movie. Except I went through such trouble to find the theater. It was in Apple Valley and I was out there to cover a high school football playoff game in Lucerne Valley.

Has anyone been to Lucerne Valley? Does anyone know how far it is from places where there is actual human habitation?

I was trapped with nowhere to go and nothing to do.

2005-05-31 18:40:00
30.   Steve
I read that Zach Day went on the DL, and Jim Bowden said that he was about ready to trade him before they discovered a fracture in his wrist...

I would name the Dodgers a prime suspect in this part of the story.

2005-05-31 18:41:41
31.   Dodgerkid
Did anyone know that the Cubs used to have spring training on Catalina Island? And the White Sox were in Long Beach?
2005-05-31 18:42:12
32.   Bob Timmermann
Arizona leads the Mets 7-0
The Phillies lead the Giants 5-0
2005-05-31 18:43:45
33.   Bob Timmermann
Yes to both of those questions.

The Browns used to train in Burbank also.

2005-05-31 18:44:16
34.   Jim Hitchcock
Taking the over, based on the loopy logic that with Bradley cooling his heels for a few days, the team will step it up.

Now, can someone please tell me what a porkpie hat is?

2005-05-31 18:46:13
35.   Jim Hitchcock
Dodgerkid, Catalina Island was at one time owned by Wrigley. He raised both little Cubbies and buffalo there.
2005-05-31 18:46:29
36.   Bob Timmermann
Picture of some Cubs players arriving in Avalon in 1930:

2005-05-31 18:48:07
37.   Bob Timmermann
Bradley is out tonight also.

Rose makes his Dodger debut and bats 8th. Choi is back in the lineup batting 7th

2005-05-31 18:48:31
38.   GoBears
31: It was all about the Wrigleys.
2005-05-31 18:48:49
39.   Bob Timmermann
Porkpie hat:
2005-05-31 18:49:20
40.   Dodgerkid
I played Avalon in high school.
2005-05-31 18:51:03
41.   Bob Timmermann
A couple of years ago there was an 8-man football playoff game between Trona and Avalon.

It was at Avalon.

For those with good maps, you can see how far apart those two schools are.

2005-05-31 18:58:51
42.   Dodgerkid
a buffalo chased me on the island once.
2005-05-31 18:59:57
43.   Steve
Old friend Jason Romano just went into the game as a pinch-hitter, and was picked off of second by the catcher on the first pitch.
2005-05-31 19:00:24
44.   Steve
pinch-runner, not pinch-hitter
2005-05-31 19:01:22
45.   Berkeley Doug
I'll take the over. Penny picthes 7 1/3 and gives up 3 runs. Sadly, I'm not even sure if the Dodgers are leading.

Choi hits a HR and as he passes Tracy in the dugout mutters in Korean "stiffness in my arm my ass". When Tracy asks what he said, Choi replies "Thanks for the days off. Only playing every three days really helps my swing".

2005-05-31 19:01:40
46.   Jim Hitchcock
Those sheer cliffs come in handy, don't they, Dodgerkid?

Thanks, Bob...think I'll stick to powdered wigs.

2005-05-31 19:08:52
47.   Marty
All right, while riding the train/bus home I changed my mind re, dinner. It's going to be.....Hamburgers! On the grill. Accompanied with ice cold beer.
2005-05-31 19:09:12
48.   adg
I wasn't chased by a buffalo, but I was definitly in a staring contest with one on Catalina. They're some BIG suckers, that's for sure.
2005-05-31 19:10:23
49.   Marty
By the way, I'll take the over tonight. Barely. I think Penny will go seven and change.
2005-05-31 19:12:20
50.   Jim Hitchcock
Buffalo meat is, surprisingly, the leaner red meat.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-05-31 19:12:22
51.   Bob Timmermann
They're bison, not buffaloes.
2005-05-31 19:12:55
52.   Marty
Yay for the fans for staying out of the way on that foul.
2005-05-31 19:13:00
53.   Jim Hitchcock
Well, I'll be buffaloed.
2005-05-31 19:14:12
54.   Bob Timmermann
Of course, if you saw some of these critters:

2005-05-31 19:15:24
55.   Bob Timmermann
I thought Lee going 0 for 5 yesterday was a freak thing.
2005-05-31 19:20:19
56.   Bob Timmermann
Gameday has Mike Rose as #64. Is that what he's really wearing?
2005-05-31 19:25:57
57.   Sam DC
WGN alert: Requisite comment made about how Dodger fans don't arrive 'til the fourth and start leaving in the fifth. Knowing guffaws all around.
2005-05-31 19:30:15
58.   Jim Hitchcock
He's wearing # 54, Bob.
2005-05-31 19:31:46
59.   Bob Timmermann
Thanks Jim.

The Cubs have taken a quick lead in Olneys.

And in runs too.

2005-05-31 19:42:15
60.   Sam DC
Is that amazing old miniature golf course (think mossy bricks and geometric wonders, not windmills or volcanos) still open in Avalon?
2005-05-31 19:50:41
61.   LAT
There is a real 9 hole course on the island. Very short but still fun to play. feels like you are in the jungle or someting.
2005-05-31 19:50:55
62.   Jim Hitchcock
It's called Golf Gardens, Sam:

Warning: Scooter's little brother hangs out on this site.

2005-05-31 19:51:49
63.   Steve
Why in the world would you send Choi on that 3-2 pitch? What possible reason could you have? Bored? Embarrassed that our only baserunner is on a strikeout and want to give it back?
2005-05-31 19:53:07
64.   LAT
Geez, Maddux is not even playing and Vin is still waxing. I'm not sure he ever stopped from last night. BTW nice strike there, Brad.
2005-05-31 19:55:04
65.   Jim Hitchcock
That's kinda weird, Sam...I had a miniature golf game (on the Amiga) that looks like it was modeled on Golf Gardens.

Oops, Dusty just swallowed his toothpick.

2005-05-31 19:55:07
66.   Steve
Assist to Mike Rose for making contact on that 3-2 pitch.
2005-05-31 19:55:35
67.   Jim Hitchcock
Hah, Vinny just said the same thing.
2005-05-31 19:55:37
68.   LAT
UG-LY! but we'll take it
2005-05-31 19:58:01
69.   Mark Linsey
2005-05-31 19:59:22
70.   LAT
Dodgers really need to stop running that ad where Izturis morphs into Jackie Robinson stealing second base. Izzy does a lot of great stuff but stealing second ain't one of them.
2005-05-31 19:59:39
71.   Mark Linsey
Heh, made that last post when all Gameday said was "run scoring play"...not quite what I assumed but still good.
2005-05-31 20:06:19
72.   Sam DC
Thanks Jim for the GG link. Can't recommend enough that folks find their way to Avalong and play that course -- supercool.
2005-05-31 20:10:44
73.   LAT
SD 1-0, bottom 3rd bases loaded, 2 out
2005-05-31 20:12:23
74.   Sam DC
Well, if you take the hovercraft, then it's just Avalon.
2005-05-31 20:12:39
75.   LAT
SD now 3-0
2005-05-31 20:17:27
76.   Nick Iyengar
Just checked in. Anyone know why Rose is playing? I thought Navarro was up for Bako.
2005-05-31 20:18:12
77.   Sam DC
WGN Alert: Requisite joke about lady eating sushi at the ballpark -- probably a "California Roll," get it . . . Knowing guffaws all around.
2005-05-31 20:20:51
78.   Sam DC
Nick -- they swapped Rose and Navarro this morning. some discussion mixed in with the porn star stuff at the beginning of the previous thread.
2005-05-31 20:22:07
79.   LAT
Nomo getting spanked in Oakland. 6-1. Just air-mailed ball over catchers head allowing run to score from 3rd. Then walks bases full and gives up single. 84 pitches through 4 inngs and still not out of it. Hate to see him get beat up like that.
2005-05-31 20:22:45
80.   regfairfield
That doesn't make sense, they're playing the Chicago Cubs.

Oh, now I get it. Hehehehe.

2005-05-31 20:25:18
81.   LAT
3 run HR for Brewers. Russal Braynan for the all star team!!!! 3-3
2005-05-31 20:27:35
82.   LAT
Pevey getting worked. Gives up double after HR. Hate to see him get beat up like that. OK just kidding
2005-05-31 20:29:25
83.   LAT
Another double for Brewers. 4-3. Brail Folkenberg warming
2005-05-31 20:30:21
84.   Dodgerkid
Bradley's MRI results: Milton Bradley got the results of his latest MRI. They showed that the outfielder suffered a slight tear of the ligament in his right ring finger that holds the flexor tendon in place. Tracy said the finger would be put in a brace for three days, when it is hoped Bradley will be able to swing a bat.

"If he can't, obviously, we have something else we'll likely take a look at," Tracy said, adding that surgery has not been discussed.

"It's not major," Tracy said. "It's his comfort level and his ability to grip a bat and swing it, that's the main issue."


2005-05-31 20:31:07
85.   Marty
Man, Vinny was talking about the Drysdale game during his shutout streak where he hit Dietz but they wouldn't give him the base. I was there and it is still my favorite all-time game attended
2005-05-31 20:33:11
86.   Sam DC
WGN Alert: I missed the details of a series of remarks focusing on (i) the inappropriateness of wearing a Reds cap to a game not involving the Reds, (ii) Alyssa Milano "trying to put on weight for a new role," and (iii) people in CA not knowing where Chicago is, but you get the drift.
2005-05-31 20:33:31
87.   LAT
Izzy is sick
2005-05-31 20:40:16
88.   Ryan Jerz
I checked out the WGN baseball blog. It's filled with the utter genius of Bob Brenly. That means he's making fun of Dodger fans for showing up late and leaving early. Commenters are even better.
2005-05-31 20:40:38
89.   Jim Hitchcock
All I need to know about Chicago is that even the cows want it burned to the ground.
2005-05-31 20:43:13
90.   Sam DC
I'll take the udder genius of Jim Hitchcock over the utter genius of Bob Brenly any day.
2005-05-31 20:49:49
91.   Sam DC
Cubs have 6 hits, we have 1. Apparently, we've been much more efficient with our baserunners.
2005-05-31 20:52:23
92.   Sam DC
Very inefficient play by Dubois.
2005-05-31 20:52:33
93.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodger catchers have 2 unassisted double plays this year.
2005-05-31 20:52:44
94.   Steve
The Dodgers are perfecting the 2u double play.
2005-05-31 20:52:50
95.   Dodgerkid
Bob when was the first?
2005-05-31 20:53:28
96.   Steve
You would know better than I, Bob, but isn't that three?
2005-05-31 20:54:29
97.   adamclyde
can anyone watching the game explain what just happened? Gameday said "patterson out on batter interference"
2005-05-31 20:55:39
98.   bokonon42
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've seen three this year. The catchers have been better at drawing the interference call than, like, actually throwing anybody out.
2005-05-31 20:57:53
99.   Steve
That strike 3 call was absurd.
2005-05-31 20:58:13
100.   Sam DC
Runner goes on a 2 strike pitch. Dubois strikes out. As Rose steps up to throw to second, Dubois leans/hops forward and they bump. Interference called on Dubois, so the runner is out. (Meanwhile, to my eyes, Rose was way behind and not going to get the out at second w/o the interference call.)
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-05-31 20:59:32
101.   regfairfield
I think that was the first time game day put a called strike outside the zone.
2005-05-31 21:01:01
102.   Jim Hitchcock
Sheffield would have punched the fan out, on principle.
2005-05-31 21:01:30
103.   Bob Timmermann
Phillips has 2 DPs according to the stats I found. I think one was a K-CS the hard way, but maybe it was also an interference call.
2005-05-31 21:01:38
104.   Sam DC
Sheesh, those were some close pitches on that walk to Perez.
2005-05-31 21:01:59
105.   Jon Weisman
I thought that was a solid strike three pitch to Kent. Right on the outside corner, or quite close enough.
2005-05-31 21:03:24
106.   Steve
Just a terrible call. It wasn't even particularly close. It even appeared to be outside. After we get Jim Tracy, et. al, the umpires can go next.
2005-05-31 21:04:30
107.   Jon Weisman
I'm really surprised, Steve. It looked good to me live and on replay. I think even a bad pitcher gets that call, let alone a guy throwing a one-hitter.
2005-05-31 21:04:36
108.   Steve
I thought it was low. It being outside was a bonus.
2005-05-31 21:05:21
109.   Daniel B
How do people become official scorers?
2005-05-31 21:05:48
110.   Sam DC
I'm just surprised he wasn't getting those calls on the second and third balls to Perez.
2005-05-31 21:05:53
111.   Daniel B
That was really random, but still something Ive been wondering. My bad.
2005-05-31 21:05:59
112.   Bob Timmermann
Does the over/under bet refer to statistical innings pitched or innings pitched in.

Regardless Penny is likely to get an out.

2005-05-31 21:06:20
113.   Steve
Looked at the replay. Still low. Not outside. Yes, a pitcher throwing a one-hitter is going to get that call.

If it makes you feel any better, I thought the 1-2 pitch to Perez was strike 3.

2005-05-31 21:08:17
114.   Bob Timmermann
Official scorers have to prove that they've seen a lot of games in person (at least 500) and they have to take a test.
That's about it. For the major league level that is.

If you want to become one, you can ask the Cal League or Western League teams how to become one. It's a lot harder in the minor leagues from people I've met. They don't have instant replays. And guys who want to get promoted really care about their batting average and ERA.

2005-05-31 21:09:46
115.   Bob Timmermann
The official scorer in Arizona on the day that Sanchez threw his glove at the ball. Turns out that I've met that guy. I know him by his first name.

I feel like such an insider.

He was one of the official scorers for the 2001 World Series too. They use three for those games. One from each home city and a neutral guy.

2005-05-31 21:09:57
116.   Christina
Do the official scorers make much money?
2005-05-31 21:09:57
117.   Jim Hitchcock
Statistical, I'd assume...since they're often fractionalized.
2005-05-31 21:11:05
118.   Daniel B
Im not saying I want to be one, I was just wondering how a person goes about becoming one. I was thinking it would be former umpires or someone already associated with the game.
2005-05-31 21:11:10
119.   Steve
What? No Duaner Sanchez?
2005-05-31 21:11:23
120.   Im So Blue
For those not watching at home, Robles to bat for Penny, Gagne is up in the bullpen.
2005-05-31 21:11:35
121.   Bob Timmermann
I think the official scorers get $50 or $100 a game in the majors.

In the minors, they probably get free parking and a bag of peanuts.

2005-05-31 21:11:58
122.   Christina
Do we not have anyone better than Robles available to PH? I missed most of the game.
2005-05-31 21:12:52
123.   Bob Timmermann
Official scorers used to be beat writers, but newspapers tend not to like to have their reporters be part of the story.

Now they tend to be retired reporters or the time honored tradition of "guy who knew somebody"

2005-05-31 21:13:24
124.   Bob Timmermann
With Bradley unavailable, they're aren't any other lefties available.
2005-05-31 21:13:37
125.   Steve
Mike Rose is doing Dusty's job for him -- shredding Zambrano's arm.
2005-05-31 21:13:41
126.   Jon Weisman
Rose has had some good ABs tonight.
2005-05-31 21:14:59
127.   Bob Timmermann
Not only is Zambrano pitching well, Baker likely knows that he will need a pile of relievers tomorrow with a rookie starting.
2005-05-31 21:15:03
128.   Dodgerkid
say goodbye to the division.
2005-05-31 21:16:57
129.   Daniel B
Being an official scorer wouldnt be a bad side job. Go to every home ballgame, get to sit in the press box all game. The money sounds horrible, but 80 free ballgames. Sounds good to me.
2005-05-31 21:17:33
130.   Steve
Ironic that the only reason the game's actually not over is that Gagne is coming in.
2005-05-31 21:17:43
131.   Jim Hitchcock
Think Jon's feeling better. Glad to see it.

Man, I think Zambrano could go 16 tonight.

2005-05-31 21:17:45
132.   Jon Weisman
Weird - FSW2 is fancifying the video of Gagne's entrance live.
2005-05-31 21:18:18
133.   Dodgerkid
the guy with the gloves is obviously on drugs.
2005-05-31 21:18:44
134.   Jon Weisman
Getting there - thanks, Jim. I'm working while watching the game: Instead of watching from a comatose state, I'll be comatose after.
2005-05-31 21:19:35
135.   Xeifrank
Gagne in in a non save situation??? Somebody check Jim Tracy's pulse!!

Maybe he read Dodger Thoughts last night.



2005-05-31 21:20:22
136.   Daniel B
But the gear on Phillips.
2005-05-31 21:20:49
137.   Steve
Knock on wood, but the changeup is diving!
2005-05-31 21:21:07
138.   Dodgerkid
the best reliever versus the best hitter.
2005-05-31 21:21:25
139.   Daniel B
Put, Put the gear on Phillips. Its wierd, the B isnt anywhere close to the P on the keyboard, yet I still typed a B.
2005-05-31 21:21:26
140.   Xeifrank
Missed the first 8 innings. I see the Dodgers have one hit and it's from Izturis. What inning was it in, and what kind of hit?

Penny beat the Over.



2005-05-31 21:21:35
141.   Im So Blue
Tracy has done this many times in the past. In home games where the Dodgers don't have a lead, he'll bring in Gagne in the 9th anyway, because it's impossible for him to get a save, so there's no point in saving him for later.
2005-05-31 21:21:38
142.   Christina
Maybe it's a Jim Tracy impersonator coaching tonight? And the FJT blog people have the real one locked up safely somewhere...
2005-05-31 21:21:41
143.   Jon Weisman
The save opportunity for the game disappeared after the tie reached the ninth - Tracy has always used Gagne in this situation.
2005-05-31 21:22:51
144.   Xeifrank
and by the way, why was Robles pinch hitting? And why was the 3bman playing right on the line about 6 feet in from the bag, and then the ball hit exactly there. Wierd!



2005-05-31 21:23:09
145.   LAT
SD about to win again. Putting up a 5 spot in the 6th
2005-05-31 21:24:06
146.   LAT
Burnitz buntintg shows why Dusty is a lousy manager
2005-05-31 21:24:09
147.   Steve
That's about the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
2005-05-31 21:24:16
148.   Bob Timmermann
Thank you Mr. Baker.
2005-05-31 21:24:37
149.   Xeifrank
Baker is dumber than Tracy! Well, just as dumb perhaps. Bunting. Well, atleast it wasn't their best hitter who was bunting, so it might've been worth a shot.



2005-05-31 21:24:40
150.   LAT
Steve-Care to comment on that managerial choice
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-05-31 21:25:04
151.   Christina
How hilarious would a BIDP have been?
2005-05-31 21:25:17
152.   Xeifrank
Perhaps Baker will now try to run out of the inning since the sac bunt didn't work.



2005-05-31 21:25:49
153.   Sam DC
Wow -- that was some strike one to Ramirez.
2005-05-31 21:26:02
154.   Bob Timmermann
Is Aramis Ramirez the Cubs "Butter and Egg" man? Or is that Derek Lee?
2005-05-31 21:26:31
155.   Xeifrank
Oh crap.



2005-05-31 21:26:45
156.   Xeifrank
Bring Erickson in! :)



2005-05-31 21:27:23
157.   Steve
Sitting on the changeup.
2005-05-31 21:27:38
158.   Xeifrank
How about a suicide squeeze play.



2005-05-31 21:28:04
159.   Bob Timmermann
Our best hope now if for Baker to try something stupid, like a squeeze or a double steal.
2005-05-31 21:28:30
160.   Xeifrank
atleast Tracy brought the IF in.



2005-05-31 21:28:37
161.   Daniel B
Jose Macias...My favorite cubbie.
2005-05-31 21:29:05
162.   LAT
Tough spot for Rose to be making his ML debut.
2005-05-31 21:29:09
163.   Xeifrank
Let me state the obvious here. It's a good time for a strike out.



2005-05-31 21:30:19
164.   Bob Timmermann
"I have a very bad feeling about this..."

Star Wars 1-6.

2005-05-31 21:30:37
165.   Xeifrank
I wonder if Gagne talks into his glove when he's at home.



2005-05-31 21:30:48
166.   Jim Hitchcock
Breath deep, the gathering gloom...
2005-05-31 21:31:16
167.   Jon Weisman
"Young" Mike Rose, as Vin keeps calling him, will be 29 this summer. He's older than both pitchers he has caught.
2005-05-31 21:31:57
168.   Christina
2005-05-31 21:32:00
169.   Xeifrank
That was nice. Big K.



2005-05-31 21:32:56
170.   adg
Kgagne! Sweet!
2005-05-31 21:32:59
171.   Steve
How has that guy hit ten homeruns? He's worse than Mondesi.
2005-05-31 21:32:59
172.   Sam DC
Anything thing else you'd like to state Xeifrank?
2005-05-31 21:33:18
173.   Christina
State the obvious again, Xei. It worked last time!
2005-05-31 21:33:31
174.   Steve
2005-05-31 21:33:31
175.   Xeifrank
Dodgers finally get a great start, and what do you know, they only come up with one hit thru the first 8 innings.



2005-05-31 21:33:35
176.   LAT
I'm not sure if Rose looks nervous or I am just watching him through nervous eyes.
2005-05-31 21:33:58
177.   Xeifrank
We could use a strike out here again. :)



2005-05-31 21:34:03
178.   Bob Timmermann
They don't call 'em the Friendly Confines for nothing.
2005-05-31 21:34:23
179.   Daniel B
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!! Lets get a run!!!
2005-05-31 21:34:26
180.   Steve
Not hanging. Goodbye.
2005-05-31 21:34:27
181.   Im So Blue
2005-05-31 21:34:28
182.   Xeifrank



2005-05-31 21:34:30
183.   alex 7
real canadian vs phony french. battle of the last names here, you know Gagne will win
2005-05-31 21:34:36
184.   Christina
Whew. Time for Drew and Kent to justify their salaries!
2005-05-31 21:34:56
185.   adg
KGagne! Sweetness!
2005-05-31 21:34:56
186.   Steve
Assist - Dusty Baker, making Jim Tracy look good.
2005-05-31 21:35:02
187.   LAT
"What me nervous?"
Alfred E. Newman
2005-05-31 21:35:51
188.   Jim Hitchcock
"...Ride, Ride my seesaw."

Moody Blues. Have no idea what made me think of that song.

2005-05-31 21:36:09
189.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers don't need a lot of hits to beat the Cubs.

2005-05-31 21:36:24
190.   Xeifrank
Let me state the obvious for a third time. It would be really nice to get the leadoff man aboard in the 9th(1).



1. But not to attempt to bunt him over.

2005-05-31 21:37:06
191.   Xeifrank
Michael Wuertz? Another ballplayer who has never been in my kitchen.



2005-05-31 21:37:09
192.   Bob Timmermann
Of course Baker won't use his best reliever in a tie game. Or even his second best reliever in Wellemeyer.
2005-05-31 21:37:31
193.   Jon Weisman
Not that I would have been in favor of having Burnitz bunt at all, but however wrong he was, Dusty would have had a run had Burnitz gotten the bunt down.
2005-05-31 21:37:41
194.   Sam DC
WGN Alert: Have captioning on to try and avoid waking family. Unless my captioning went screwy, which has been known to happen, they were calling the 0-2 high fastball a "President Bush". ?? Little help?

Xei -- you asked before about Robles -- Bob pointed out he was hitting b/c with Bradley out, he was our only lefty on the bench. Izturis' hit was fluky, a short pop to the no person's land between short, left, and center. I think the CF got a glove on it but couldn't reel it in. Choi scored from first on the play.

2005-05-31 21:37:48
195.   Steve
Does anyone else think that some managers (Dusty, Clint Hurdle, etc.) who are in trouble job-wise are doing goofy things like that to curry favor on Baseball Tonight and from Joe Morgan?
2005-05-31 21:38:50
196.   Xeifrank
Thanks Sam.



2005-05-31 21:39:03
197.   Jim Hitchcock
XF is the man!
2005-05-31 21:39:14
198.   Daniel B
Is that Cosmo Kramer in the Dodger's dugout?
2005-05-31 21:39:16
199.   Xeifrank
Ok, leadoff on man just like I wanted. But please don't try to bunt with Drew up, or anybody else up.



2005-05-31 21:39:25
200.   Steve
I nominate 193 for best use of bold type! :)
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-05-31 21:39:49
201.   Xeifrank
f-k he's bunting.



2005-05-31 21:39:52
202.   Bob Timmermann
I wouldn't say that if Burnitz had gotten the bunt down, the Cubs would have scored because I think Tracy would have walked Ramirez.
2005-05-31 21:40:10
203.   Jon Weisman
No, DON"T have OBP Drew bunt!
2005-05-31 21:40:11
204.   Steve
Oh help me. Oh please help me.
2005-05-31 21:40:25
205.   Im So Blue
Noooooooo! Drew bunted foul.
2005-05-31 21:40:38
206.   Xeifrank
Let me state the obvious here. We don't need a bunt, what we really need is an extra base hit.



2005-05-31 21:40:54
207.   Jim Hitchcock
SAm, I would only note that Bush and Alfred E. Newman look alot alike.
2005-05-31 21:40:54
208.   Xeifrank
Let me state the obvious here. We don't need a bunt, what we really need is an extra base hit.



2005-05-31 21:41:11
209.   Denezin
My Gameday just went screwy. No way Drew actually bunted, right? Is Joe Morgan at the keyboard?
2005-05-31 21:41:24
210.   Steve
I am in so much physical pain right now.
2005-05-31 21:41:24
211.   Xeifrank
Ughh! Fire Jim Tracy!!!!!!!!!!!!



2005-05-31 21:41:33
212.   Im So Blue
He better not be bunting with 2 strikes!
2005-05-31 21:41:54
213.   alex 7
here comes the 0-2 ticked off game-winning HR.
2005-05-31 21:42:02
214.   Bob Timmermann
Drew actually has 17 sacrifices in his career.
2005-05-31 21:42:09
215.   Xeifrank
If Drew strikes out because he tried to bunt twice, the remote control is going thru a window.

There it goes!



2005-05-31 21:42:20
216.   Vic
Well done, Tracy.
2005-05-31 21:42:37
217.   Christina
See, you can tell that bunt call totally messed up Drew's concentration. He was worrying more about finding a good place to bunt than to HIT the damn ball.
2005-05-31 21:42:39
218.   capdodger
2005-05-31 21:42:50
219.   Jon Weisman
The humans make mistakes, and as always, it's the machines that suffer.
2005-05-31 21:42:52
220.   Daniel B
Paul Depodesta just had an aneurysm somewhere.
2005-05-31 21:42:56
221.   Steve
Against Michael Wuertz.
2005-05-31 21:43:04
222.   Xeifrank
Tomorrow's LA Times will read:

From Jim Tracy: We lost last night because we didn't have any situational hitting. Drew couldn't get the bunt down.



2005-05-31 21:43:14
223.   Bob Timmermann
Burnitz has 8 sacrifices in his career.

Barry Bonds has 4 and one was as recent as 1998.

2005-05-31 21:43:41
224.   capdodger
Bunting with the guy with the .381 OBP. Just great.
2005-05-31 21:44:04
225.   Bob Timmermann
To be precise, an aneurysm doesn't necessarily kill you. It just has the potential to kill you.
2005-05-31 21:44:04
226.   Xeifrank
How many games has Jim Tracy blown this year, or helped blown? I've lost track.



2005-05-31 21:44:07
227.   Denezin
Or has my general distaste for the sac bunt blinded me to some benefit to bunting in the bottom of the ninth? Obviously, a 2 run HR is overkill at this point. We only need one run.
2005-05-31 21:44:55
228.   Steve
He even had an example right there for him in the top of the inning.

It doesn't help that Mr. Swing At Anything That Moves is trying to put the emphasis on what he said in the paper about not walking.

And then he gets hosed AGAIN! Jon, don't tell me that pitch was a good pitch.

2005-05-31 21:44:57
229.   Daniel B
That was a strike, kent.
2005-05-31 21:45:29
230.   Xeifrank
Outs are precious. A walk also moves the runner to 2nd.



2005-05-31 21:45:48
231.   Dodgerkid
Anyone else thinking wild card at this point in the season?
2005-05-31 21:45:58
232.   Mark Linsey
227: That's fine, but with a hitter up with power and high OBP, a bunt decreases the likelihood of scoring even one run.
2005-05-31 21:46:03
233.   Jon Weisman
It looked like a ball to me, Steve. But it was a great pitch.
2005-05-31 21:46:18
234.   Christina
Tracy's just trying to save Dusty from being fired by looking worse in contrast.
2005-05-31 21:46:20
235.   Xeifrank
Who pitches the 10th for the Dodgers if we don't score? Yhency?



2005-05-31 21:46:35
236.   Jon Weisman
231 - You're scooping my upcoming post.
2005-05-31 21:47:24
237.   Im So Blue
I think Gagne will continue in the 10th.
2005-05-31 21:47:29
238.   Steve
This game is going to spark my next area of research. Whether there is a managerial equivalent to the Grabowski Principle. Funding sources and grants to be announced.
2005-05-31 21:47:34
239.   Xeifrank
Let me state the obvious here. We could really use a walk off homerun here.



2005-05-31 21:49:12
240.   Daniel B
We could really use a new manager. Kevin Kennedy? John Kruk? Anyone at this point, please.
2005-05-31 21:49:23
241.   Dodgerkid
Jon, that's depressing.
2005-05-31 21:49:59
242.   Bob Timmermann
If the Cubs win with Blanco, Hollandsworth, and Neifi batting, I will be most displeased.

But in good news, my cat is back from the vet with some really nasty looking scars on her from where her tumors got removed. She seems in pretty good shape. But she does have to wear that collar. How humiliating.

2005-05-31 21:50:56
243.   Bob Timmermann
Time for another sacrifice here.
2005-05-31 21:50:58
244.   Xeifrank
Another bunt? oh please



2005-05-31 21:51:28
245.   Christina
And wouldn't you know...BUNT ATTEMPT!
2005-05-31 21:52:18
246.   Christina
Gah...and now Dusty's smirking.
2005-05-31 21:52:32
247.   Xeifrank
Choi almost threw to second.



2005-05-31 21:52:36
248.   Xeifrank
Choi almost threw to second.



2005-05-31 21:53:19
249.   Xeifrank
stike em out yhhhhhhency.



2005-05-31 21:53:41
250.   Xeifrank
That pitch was better than the one they called Kent out on.



Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-05-31 21:53:59
251.   Steve
You have to be kidding me. You punch out Kent on those two pitches and then don't give us that one? Please.
2005-05-31 21:54:30
252.   Xeifrank
At the moment the best thing that could happen for the Dodgers is for Tracy to come out and argue a balls/strikes and get kicked out of the game.



2005-05-31 21:55:17
253.   Xeifrank
Screwed by the umps again.



2005-05-31 21:55:27
254.   Steve
Hmmmm...a managerial Grabowski Principle...hmmm
2005-05-31 21:55:35
255.   Daniel B
Are professional hitmen expensive? I think if we all pool our funds...
2005-05-31 21:56:23
256.   LAT
Perfect!!! Forget the wild card.

Now I know why Giant fans hate him.

2005-05-31 21:56:36
257.   Xeifrank
I could easily see this as a 5-1 deficit fairly soon.



2005-05-31 21:56:55
258.   Christina
I didn't care for the way Ledee jogged after the ball after it got past him, either. HUSTLE!
2005-05-31 21:57:06
259.   alex 7
any thoughts on trading for a hitter? Or am I over-reacting to a long, long slump.
2005-05-31 21:57:06
260.   Steve
The window for trading Brazoban is slowly closing.
2005-05-31 21:57:30
261.   Xeifrank
Only out in the inning so far, is a bunt.



2005-05-31 21:57:47
262.   Daniel B
Wuertz gets the win
Tracy gets the loss

I dont dislike brazoban, but why wasnt Gagne allowed to continue?

2005-05-31 21:58:11
263.   Sam DC
WGN Alert: Showing obligatory footage from top of stadium of cars pulling out of Dodger Stadium parking lot.
2005-05-31 21:58:35
264.   Jon Weisman
Steve - I would have assumed that the managerial Grabowski Principle occured in your eyes before you started your site.
2005-05-31 21:58:35
265.   Jim Hitchcock
Let's see. Deep Throat is unearthed on Redford Ave. Paris gets engaged to Paris. What a weird day.
2005-05-31 21:58:38
266.   LAT
Let's keep in mind we really have no business being in this game. One hit--we do not even deserve to be here. It should have been over in regulation.
2005-05-31 21:59:24
267.   bigcpa
Gagne had to come out because they don't have any music for him walking back out of the dugout.
2005-05-31 21:59:45
268.   Xeifrank
In other news an insane gunmen killed himself in the area today.



2005-05-31 21:59:53
269.   Bob Timmermann
You can't show cars leaving Wrigley Field because nobody parks near the stadium. And if you looked at the El station near Wrigley, it would have people on it already.
2005-05-31 21:59:58
270.   capdodger
Three questions:

1. Why bunt with your number three hitter?
2. Why bring a young pitcher with a tendancy to be wild in for your best pitcher?
3. When can the WGN idiots be hung from the pressbox railing?

2005-05-31 22:00:06
271.   LAT
That was pretty good, Big
2005-05-31 22:00:25
272.   Bob Timmermann
Gagne threw 24 pitches and it's May.
2005-05-31 22:00:52
273.   Christina
263 - don't forget the commentary that it was people leaving after the Cubs took the lead. Never mind that it was like 20 seconds after the fateful play...
2005-05-31 22:01:27
274.   LAT
Gonna walk 'em loaded then give up single to make it 4-2
2005-05-31 22:01:47
275.   Jon Weisman
Gagne wasn't exactly unhittable in his inning. He might have ended up with a 50-pitch outing if he went two. For what it's worth to you.
2005-05-31 22:02:18
276.   Daniel B
Oh my god. Im surprised Lee didnt hit any of those other pitches out.
2005-05-31 22:03:22
277.   Ryan Jerz
The WGN fools just about jumped out of their seats on hat flyball out by Lee. Awesome to see those clowns get so riled up.
2005-05-31 22:03:24
278.   Steve
264 -- but the formula, Jon. That's the trick. Plus, Dusty pulled a stupid bunt and they're winning. So the formula can't just be "bunt in stupid places and you lose." It has to be more than that. Hence, advanced study and a hefty grant are necessary.
2005-05-31 22:03:37
279.   Daniel B
Thanks Jon and Bob. Like i said, I dont dislike Yhency. I was just wondering why Gagne didnt go back out.
2005-05-31 22:04:29
280.   Bob Timmermann
In Seattle, the Mariners were down to Toronto 9-2 after 7 and Hargrove took out Beltre, Sexson, and Boone and then saw his team score 5 runs, but come up short 9-7.
2005-05-31 22:05:11
281.   Steve
I'm not against pulling Gagne there. You use your best pitcher in the situation suited to him. He didn't look all that great anyway. We had the shot, Tracy blew it. If he didn't care about winning, why not just throw Carrara out there though?
2005-05-31 22:06:52
282.   Bob Timmermann
I think the lesson learned in that inning is:
Don't give up hits to hitters like Neifi Perez.
2005-05-31 22:08:23
283.   bigcpa
In these challenging times we can at least take a time out to laugh at the Yankees.

Brad Halsey 11 starts, 7 QS, 2.99 ERA ($318K)
Randy Johnson 10 starts, 6 QS, 3.99 ERA ($15.5M)

Then the Yankees threw in Vazquez, Navarro and $9M.

2005-05-31 22:09:03
284.   Steve
Have you ever heard the White Sox guys? It's hard enough watching the White Sox and Angels bumble around the diamond for nine innings, but throw those guys into the mix, and it is as unbearable as anything in the baseball world. Even John Kruk.
2005-05-31 22:09:26
285.   LAT
Maybe Ledee can get it back with an HR. Oh yea, he struck out to end the last inning, making 0 fer 4 tonight and 0-4 yesterday.
2005-05-31 22:11:01
286.   Daniel B
Should Phillips hit for Rose?
2005-05-31 22:11:20
287.   LAT
2005-05-31 22:11:27
288.   Bob Timmermann
That's not the way I would take one for the team.
2005-05-31 22:11:31
289.   Jon Weisman
And the recently deceased batting helmet creator saves another life.
2005-05-31 22:11:36
290.   Daniel B
Charge him Antonio. We need a brawl to liven this game up.
2005-05-31 22:12:05
291.   LAT
Wow he was lucky not to catch that in the face
2005-05-31 22:12:15
292.   Xeifrank
Too bad it wasn't Tracy who got plunked. All kidding aside, not a pretty site to see.



2005-05-31 22:12:34
293.   Daniel B
Well, we DO need baserunenrs.
2005-05-31 22:12:37
294.   Christina
That made quite a sound.
2005-05-31 22:12:38
295.   Xeifrank
Let me state the obvious, we could really use a home run to end the game.



2005-05-31 22:12:42
296.   Fearing Blue
In 1962 George Lindsey showed that it's a bad strategy to have an average hitter bunt with a man on 1st and one out in all game situations. Here's why, since I happen to be in the middle of reading the paper.

At the time, the chances of scoring at least one run with a man on first and nobody out and a man on second with one out were roughly the same (39.6% vs. 39%). The average number of runs scored was higher with a man on first and nobody out (.813 runs vs. .671 runs). Also, there's a chance that the bunt fails (or the batter strikes out) and you're left with a man on first and one out (26.6% chance of scoring and .498 runs on average).

I'm just stunned that Tracy would have Drew bunt, and I can't imagine DePodesta doing anything other than seething. Drew is not an average hitter; he's our number three hitter and Wuertz had just given up a walk to Werth.

In any situation, sacrifice bunts get me fired up, but after an unintentional walk, especially so. Why not make the pitcher throw strikes instead of giving them a free out to get them back into the rhythym.

2005-05-31 22:12:48
297.   LAT
Jon, Vin just said that-you beat him to it
2005-05-31 22:13:00
298.   Bob Timmermann
Choi has 2 sacrifices in his career.
2005-05-31 22:13:55
299.   LAT
Please do not have Choi bunt
2005-05-31 22:14:04
300.   Steve
Just talking bunt right now is making my eyes bleed.

He turned to bunt! Please tell me he was kidding.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-05-31 22:14:13
301.   Daniel B
OMG, Choi better shake-off the next bunt sign
2005-05-31 22:14:18
302.   Xeifrank
a bunt would be totally idiotic, but he's squaring around for some reason.



2005-05-31 22:14:23
303.   Bob Timmermann
Was that George "Goober" Lindsey?
2005-05-31 22:14:30
304.   Steve
I can't believe this.
2005-05-31 22:14:55
305.   Xeifrank
Choi would've walked him over to 2nd and we would still have no outs.



2005-05-31 22:15:01
306.   Steve
2005-05-31 22:15:08
307.   Sam DC
Now send him to third so a Sac Fly ties it!
2005-05-31 22:15:09
308.   Daniel B
Why not Phillips? Hes killer with RISP
2005-05-31 22:15:20
309.   Xeifrank
Tracy telling Choi "good job" on the bunt as he comes to the dugout just makes me sick.



2005-05-31 22:15:27
310.   Christina
I feel like I am watching the same half-inning over and on first, a bunt laid down...
2005-05-31 22:15:33
311.   mikethinksblue
why are we stuck with Mike Rose? Where is Dioner Navarro?
2005-05-31 22:15:54
312.   Bob Timmermann
"Goober" had to time to do such a study. He didn't join the "Andy Griffith Show" until 1964.
2005-05-31 22:15:55
313.   bigcpa
I really think in times like that Tracy bunts out of fear of the DP. But 2-0 with Choi must lead to a walk 80% of the time no?
2005-05-31 22:15:57
314.   regfairfield

Tracy's Head

2005-05-31 22:16:16
315.   capdodger
Bunting for the 0 VORP catcher and pitcher's spot to drive it in. FJT!!
2005-05-31 22:16:16
316.   Jon Weisman
296 - George "Goober" Lindsey?
2005-05-31 22:16:19
317.   Xeifrank
I hate to sound like a broken record. But someone please fire Jim Tracy.



2005-05-31 22:16:21
318.   Daniel B
Mkae contact Mike. For the Love of god
2005-05-31 22:16:42
319.   Xeifrank
Now bunt him to 3rd then bunt him home. It's fool proof.



2005-05-31 22:16:48
320.   Steve
Finally, the umpire's inconsistent strike zone loves us.
2005-05-31 22:17:03
321.   Jon Weisman
Oh, sorry, way late on Goober. Had to kill a spider.
2005-05-31 22:17:13
322.   regfairfield
Why is Rose hitting here? Oh right, so we can double switch in Phillips just in case we come back.
2005-05-31 22:17:24
323.   Fearing Blue
Having Choi bunt against Dempster may be worse than having Drew bunt. Dempster has walked 23% of the batters he's faced this season.
2005-05-31 22:17:42
324.   Steve
Why wouldn't you let Choi rip on a 2-0 pitch?

And that's two favors from the inconsistent strike zone!

2005-05-31 22:17:42
325.   Jon Weisman
Let's not cry for Navarro. He's not hitting at all in L.V.
2005-05-31 22:18:01
326.   LAT
I'm guessing JT had Choi bunt to save his stiff forearm which developed from too many swings
2005-05-31 22:18:05
327.   Bob Timmermann
I'm going to have get my copy of Lindsey's memoirs out "Goober on the Half Shell"
2005-05-31 22:18:11
328.   Xeifrank
We could really use that extra out that JT gave away about now.



2005-05-31 22:18:32
329.   Steve
Never mind. Crisis averted. No run scored. Blowing game intact.
2005-05-31 22:18:39
330.   Xeifrank
Old Maid Signs may be our last hope.



2005-05-31 22:18:46
331.   Daniel B
Would anyone be shocked if Olmedo bunted? Really?
2005-05-31 22:19:27
332.   LAT
Replay of last night please
2005-05-31 22:19:47
333.   Xeifrank
If Jim Tracy were a super-hero, he'd be a-hole man.



2005-05-31 22:19:55
334.   Bob Timmermann
That 1-1 swing was terrible.
2005-05-31 22:20:44
335.   Xeifrank
Good job Tracy.



2005-05-31 22:21:09
336.   Bob Timmermann
The book is actually called "Goober in a Nutshell"
2005-05-31 22:21:21
337.   Fearing Blue
Bob, it was George R. Lindsey, who was doing Operations Research work for the Canadian military at the time. I don't believe he went on to become "Goober" :).
2005-05-31 22:21:41
338.   mikethinksblue
I can't blame Tracy for this one, its pretty tough to manage a ball club that achieves 1 hit over 10 innings.
2005-05-31 22:21:48
339.   Icaros
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Tracy's bunt calls were asinine.
2005-05-31 22:22:28
340.   Daniel B
Anyone but Jim Tracy. I cant take anymore of these horrible decisions.

These arent even questionable. They're just plain wrong. How can the media not be on this guy? He is just a horrible manager.

2005-05-31 22:22:31
341.   Xeifrank
The managing of Jim Tracy is getting so bad and potentially costing us so many wins, that I am starting to actually get mad at Paul DePodesta for not relieving Tracy of his duties. I don't care what the backlash might be, DePodesta has a job to do, and his job is now to fire Jim Tracy and replace him with a DT manager by committee. I get saturday nights.



2005-05-31 22:22:36
342.   Vic
I think you can omit the 'vr' on this one, xeifrank. Tracy doesn't deserve it.
2005-05-31 22:22:50
343.   Bob Timmermann
George "Goober" Lindsey did have a Bachelor of Science degree and taught high school science before he went into acting.
2005-05-31 22:23:13
344.   LAT
I hate:

Drew &
Choi (but only becasue he didn't tell JT to piss off on the bunt sign)

Did I forget anyone.

Now 6 1/2 back. 3 1/2 behind the D'Backs.

What a wasted effort by Penny

2005-05-31 22:23:53
345.   Xeifrank

Doesn't matter how many hits you have, it's a 1-1 game, and then a 2-1 game. Same as a 10-10 or 10-9 game. Should be managed the same way considering it's not Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens or Mariano Rivera out there on the mound facing us.



2005-05-31 22:23:56
346.   Nick Iyengar
Just another sorry loss. At this point we're not getting beat, we're beating ourselves. Special thanks to JT for using Choi to bunt.
2005-05-31 22:24:04
347.   regfairfield
Well, gameday is still stuck on Mike Rose, so I'm guessing we lost.
2005-05-31 22:25:17
348.   Dodgerkid
The bunt shows that Tracy is not influenced by DePodesta.
2005-05-31 22:25:46
349.   Xeifrank
We need to come up with a new name for Jim Tracy, I can't stand hearing, saying or spelling his name any more. Perhaps a contest like the DT logo contest would do.



2005-05-31 22:26:13
350.   Daniel B
Its mind boggling that hes still managing this team. Depo should be filling out a pink slip right about Now.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-05-31 22:26:19
351.   LAT
When you see the only Dodger hit of the night you realize we really should have been no hit. If I'm Zambrano I go kick the s--t out of Dubois or Patterson for missing that Isturis ball that should have been caught.
2005-05-31 22:26:43
352.   gvette
For the last month this team has been a total disappointment, from Depo to Tracy, to practically everyone in uniform.

6.5 games back at the end of May isn't insurmountable, but only if this team cares enough to start winning more than one game in three.

2005-05-31 22:26:44
353.   Daniel B

I vote for Idiot.

2005-05-31 22:27:00
354.   Xeifrank
Gotta be at work at 4:30am tomorrow morning, so I am heading out after I find something inexpensive to break.


2005-05-31 22:27:12
355.   Fearing Blue
#338: Are you serious? It's a one run game and Tracy bunted with our #3 hitter, Drew, with no outs in the 9th. Then he bunted with Choi, who was followed by a powerhouse who now has 6 ML ABs, with no outs in the 10th. It's easy to manage a team that wins or loses every game by a bunch of runs. The true test of a manager is how he does in the close ones.
2005-05-31 22:27:26
356.   mikethinksblue
I think the bunt shows that JT assumes one of his players can actually get a base hit with a runner in scoring position. Which, after tonight, we can assume is impossible with this crappy line up.
2005-05-31 22:27:35
357.   Dodgerkid
If Tracy is fired this early in the season, and we don't go to the playoffs, DePodesta looks bad. I think he'll wait until the season is over to fire him.
2005-05-31 22:29:53
358.   Im So Blue
Well, at least Penny gave us 8 solid innings... I think Tracy's mistake was in asking Drew to bunt. Our best chance to score was in the 9th, not the 10th.
2005-05-31 22:29:56
359.   LAT
Kid, He'll wait becasue Frank won't fire him in the 1st or a 3yr contract and have to pay him to go fishing
2005-05-31 22:31:12
360.   Dodgerkid
I think Tracy is only signed through 2006, but I may be wrong.
2005-05-31 22:31:36
361.   Bob Timmermann
On May 14, 1963, the Dodgers were in fifth place and the LA Times columnists were speculating about whether Charlie Dressen or Leo Durocher would replace Walter Alston.
2005-05-31 22:31:46
362.   bigcpa
Well the Marlins fired their manager in May and won it all.
2005-05-31 22:33:33
363.   Steve
Only two years! It was a shotgun marriage anyway. Time to take the PR hit BEFORE the team is 15 games under .500.
2005-05-31 22:34:23
364.   Steve
Alston had Koufax and Drysdale.
2005-05-31 22:36:31
365.   Mark Linsey
Since so many traditionalists credited last year's success to Tracy and the media really hasn't been critical of him, why don't we look into trading him? Detroit and Cleveland did in in the 1960s. I don't know about the specifics of Tracy's contract or whether it has a no trade clause, but if not then I think we should be able to get a better manager in return. Heck, I'd settle for a couple of solid pitching prospects! Now wouldn't that raise eyebrows...
2005-05-31 22:37:38
366.   Steve
Trade him to the Reds! Then DFA Dave Miley! I love it! Make it so!
2005-05-31 22:38:05
367.   Bob Timmermann
Koufax's health was a question mark at the beginning of the 1963 season.

Alston's job was in jeopardy a lot. And after the 1962 season, his team was pretty much ready to mutiny. Led by his third base coach, Leo Durocher.

2005-05-31 22:38:15
368.   Nick Iyengar
I posted a comment the other day saying I didn't think this season was over. Consider that comment officially reconsidered. We don't look like we want to win out there...and Tracy is sucking the life out of this club.
2005-05-31 22:41:23
369.   Fearing Blue
#365: That is the best suggestion I've heard in weeks.

How about a Jim Tracy for Aaron Harang trade? :)

2005-05-31 22:41:25
370.   bigcpa
Who remembers Jayson Stark's column on the LoDuca trade? I still refer to this when I need a laugh.

"All he traded was his fifth starter (Brad Penny) and a platoon guy (Hee Seop Choi)... said one NL front-office man. "And he got the best setup man in the league (Guillermo Mota), one of the best catchers in the league (Paul Lo Duca)...and a starting right fielder (Juan Encarnacion). And he got the Dodgers to pay them to take their best player (Lo Duca). How 'bout that?"

2005-05-31 22:43:31
371.   Fearing Blue
Please no desparation trades. Robin Ventura is not going to win this one for us.
2005-05-31 22:47:38
372.   Xeifrank
A month from now we will look back on today and think:

A) Remember when we were only 6.5 games behind the Padres

B) Remember when we were 6.5 games out and in third place and thought the season was hopeless.

C) Remember when Jim Tracy was our manager? What were we thinking.

D) Who would've thought Scott Erickson would be threatening Orel Hershisers scoreless inning streak.

E) Can't wait for football season to start.



2005-05-31 22:49:25
373.   regfairfield
DePodesta is far to smart to trade for someone that won't actually help.

I was joking with my freinds that we should send Tracy and Edwin Jackson to Tampa Bay for Aubrey Huff.

That idea is starting to look pretty darn good.

2005-05-31 22:53:18
374.   Xeifrank
haha! Just saw postgame Jim Tracy interview on the local news. He blames the loss on the Cubs getting a hit with a man on 2nd after a bunt and the Dodgers not getting a hit with a man on 2nd after a bunt.

It has become evident that the manager formerly known as Jim Tracy is lost at the helm of this team.

Would you let your dog drive your car? Would you let your two year old do your taxes? Would you ask Bill Clinton to baby sit your hot teenage daughter? If not, then why would you let Jim Tracy manage your baseball team.



2005-05-31 22:53:24
375.   Tommy Naccarato
This team is truely depressing.

1 hit...... 1 hit.......

Yes Icaros, the season is over.

2005-05-31 22:55:31
376.   Xeifrank
The season is NOT over!!! But we have almost no chance of making the playoffs. :)



2005-05-31 22:55:57
377.   Steve
Yeah, Mike Rose just couldn't push across the big one.
2005-05-31 22:56:54
378.   Tommy Naccarato
I'm still out on the east coast, so I'm missing a lot of the buzz of what is going back home. I haven't even read the Times internet. Is Tracey on his way out?
2005-05-31 22:58:48
379.   Fearing Blue
#378: Only in our dreams, Tommy.
2005-05-31 22:59:18
380.   mikethinksblue
JT's record with the Dodgers: 382-316

66 games plus .500 over 5 years. Honestly, I'm not a Tracy apolgist, I just think Depo has assembled a horrible team. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any manager could win with this team.

2005-05-31 23:01:55
381.   Xeifrank
Tommy. Tracy unfortunately probably is not on his way out. There has been no hint of his firing or even any close scrutiny of his bonehead moves in the local print press or sports talk radio.

Tracy has been awful this year and most of us on DT think he needs to be replaced. It's not just because they are going through a slump, perhaps a new mananger wouldn't make a difference in the win column considering how bad the team is playing. But it sure would give us a better chance of winning. It's not like it's once a week that Tracy blows a game. It's not even once a game any more, it's multiple times in one game. That's just unheard of and unbelievable.



2005-05-31 23:05:05
382.   Xeifrank

Doesn't matter if a different manager couldn't win with this team. Tracy is like a sprinter carrying ankle weights during a race. Perhaps the sprinter wasn't going to win anyways, but with the weights he is going to have an even more difficult job.



2005-05-31 23:08:48
383.   Nick Iyengar
#380: I agree that no manager could win a lot of games with this team. However, any other manager could pretend to want to wn. Any other manager could refrain from actively depriving his team of chances to win.

J.D. Drew was given a $55 million contract to hit big home runs (say, for example, in the bottom of the ninth inning of a tie game). He is not being paid to bunt. Hee Seop Choi, although making far less money, is likewise not on this team to bunt.

Jim Tracy is dogmatically sticking to a kind of baseball that is beginning to fade away: the kind of baseball that says you bunt with a man on first and nobody out when you're down one run in the bottom of the 10th, regardless of who is actually in the batter's box and on deck.

This season is probably over for the Dodgers anyway, but Tracy should be fired as a matter of principle. This is not second guessing by bitter DT readers. These are decisions made by Tracy that are highly predictable before they even happen, and they all stink.

2005-05-31 23:14:49
384.   Eric Enders
Ugh. It appears Dodger Thoughts has been invaded by 75 ranting Bill Plaschkes.
2005-05-31 23:17:39
385.   Xeifrank
Make that 76.


2005-05-31 23:17:49
386.   Steve
Ironic then, that Jim Tracy's biggest fan is...


I'm comfortable being on the other side of that divide.

2005-05-31 23:23:55
387.   Bob Timmermann
You know, it was just one game.

Take a deep breath.


Let it out.

But let's see what the complaints are tonight:
1) Some people think Tracy made bad decisions trying to sacrifice. OK
2) Some people think the team just isn't any good. OK
3) Some feel the team doesn't try. That I absolutely fail to see.

But it seems that every Dodgers loss is just an excuse for everyone to scream and yell and blame Jim Tracy or Paul DePodesta for the team's fate. But this stuff just happens. It's a baseball season. It plays out. Some results are better than others.

The histrionics here after a loss are as predictable as a beach ball coming on to the field.

2005-05-31 23:30:55
388.   Xeifrank

I don't mind losing as long as our team is given the best chance of winning within reason. I think Tracy's managerial decisions (keeping starters in too long, misuse of the bullpen and Gagne, and improper use of the sac bunt) are hampering our chances of winning. Some of the bad decisions are costing us games and others are just lowering our chances of winning games.



2005-05-31 23:39:48
389.   Steve
What about histrionics after a win? Which would have been the case if Mike Rose had hit a two run game winning home run? Or if Milton Bradley had hit a game-winning grand slam after Jim Tracy had let dead-armed Jeff Weaver throw 120 pitches and an 8th inning grand slam? Oh wait. We did that. And the histrionics ensued.

In other words, some of us, unlike Joe Morgan, ARE capable of looking beyond the scores and the minute-by-minute results of a game and go to the root causes.

Too many people sat around for too long watching Tracy go .530, and lauding how great he was. Bull. He never was. Win, lose, or draw. He wasn't last year when Plaschke was drooling over him for "winning the division" (funny how he wasn't giving Steve Finley much credit then), and he isn't now when the Dodgers are headed to 73-89.

What you call "an excuse" is, for the first time that I've ever seen, a collective group of people who aren't terribly interested in the grab-ass Miss America Contest that passes for baseball analysis in this town. We don't know that Drew bunting cost us the game. We don't know that it didn't cost us the game. We know what we know about using your best hitter to sacrifice, and we know that lowers your chances of winning. Why would you settle for a manager that lowers your chances of winning, ever? And why would you settle for one that does it twice?

Again, Jim Tracy gets as much blame as he deserves. What you call histrionics -- how are we supposed to react to these bunts? Quiet acceptance? Resignation? Witty aplomb? Je ne sais quoi? When all we're going to read about in the Times tomorrow is how JD Drew "couldn't get a bunt down?" What is the approved DT emotional/analytical reaction?

2005-05-31 23:44:41
390.   Steve
Strike that. Shaikin's writing, so all we're going to read about is $2 Tuesdays and cops in the stands. Someone else is going to have to follow up on the bunts on Thursday.
2005-05-31 23:53:15
391.   LAT
Howard Johnson is right, Gabby Johnson is right and Bob T. is right. (I may have butchered that reference to one of the great movies of all time). While tonight's game is frustrating and JT was wrong to force Drew and Choi to bunt, the fact that Ledee is 0-fer and erroring, our "best" hitter can't, most of our pitching staff sucks and we have never had a fifth starter, are the real problems and firing JT won't fix those problems. To compound things, we have cought many bad injury breaks and it is fair to assume our best hitter, Mr. Perez (not Odalis) will cool off.

I don't know the answer to these problems, that's Depo's job, but they all come well before showing JT the door. Finally as a middle ground solution maybe Depo has more say, like Beane, in the in-game decisions.

2005-05-31 23:56:01
392.   Bob Timmermann
Actually the LA Times game story makes no mention of Drew's failure to get a bunt down.

You can make your point. But you do have the tendency to make it by taking a hammer and ramming into our heads over and over and over and over (x 20). Your message gets lost in its repetitive nature.

It's just that any decision that Tracy makes that you don't agree with turns into a fireable offense. You could go through the daily activities of 29 other managers and you could likely do the same thing.

It would be impossible to satisfy you with any manager, I think. Is there any manager in the majors you think does a good job? The White Sox have the best record in the majors and you can find plenty of White Sox fans who despise Ozzie Guillen. You can find Padre fans who think Bruce Bochy is bad. St. Louis has pretty much a hate/hate relationship with Tony La Russa. I think you would like the Cito Gaston style of "Give me 9 good hitters, I'll make out the lineup card and then wake up when the game is over, if the hitters aren't any good or the pitchers stink, well, I don't know what to do about."

From my perspective the default position of the majority here is "It's all Jim Tracy's fault." And that's the reaction to every loss. And most wins are "Well, we won in spite of Jim Tracy." And I somehow think that the 25 players who suited up for the game and went on the field had a lot more to do with it.

2005-06-01 00:02:15
393.   Nick Iyengar
#392: I've jumped on the "Jim Tracy bandwagon" sucks after the last couple of embarrassments, and I don't feel bad about it.

Everyone here understands that various players aren't performing. That happens to every team. The bigger problem is that Tracy isn't helping -- he's not putting our players in a position to succeed. Drew bunting? Choi bunting? To me these decisions are indefensible.

When Tracy makes great decisions that help us win games, I'll say so. Until then, I'm going to point out the real stinkers with which he has provided us lately.

2005-06-01 00:03:18
394.   Nick Iyengar
Oops. That was the "Jim Tracy sucks" bandwagon. Not the "Jim Tracy bandwagon" sucks.
2005-06-01 00:11:11
395.   LAT
Nick, yes we all understand that various players are not performing, but they do not get the "air time" on DT that Firing JT gets. Even Depo who put this group together doesn't get that kind of air time anymore. Our focus on JT is disproportionate. Drew or Erikson have cost us far more games than JT. And BTW, even if it was a stupid idea to make Drew bunt, I still expect him to get it down. Choi did. Why not Mr. $55M w/ the 2 yr opt out.
2005-06-01 00:18:51
396.   Bob Timmermann
Here this will make the FJT supporters happy. It's from Tony Jackson's story in the Daily News:

Offensively, the Dodgers have big problems, problems that go way beyond a ridiculously thin bench. But there is no getting around the fact that in the late innings of a tie game, Tracy has precious little in the way of chess pieces.

Of course, what he does with what he has can be questioned at times, too. After Jayson Werth drew a leadoff walk in the bottom of the ninth, Tracy ordered No. 3 hitter J.D. Drew to try to bunt Werth over. Drew tried twice and failed, then had to swing away. Then, after Antonio Perez was hit by a pitch to begin the bottom of the 10th, Tracy had Hee-Seop Choi - mired in an 0-for-22 slump but a power hitter nonetheless - to bunt Perez into scoring position for Rose and Saenz.

"You have to get to Olmedo Saenz," Tracy said. "I'm not going home without the opportunity to get him to the plate. If you let Choi swing the bat, and he hits a (double play) groundball, it wipes out the inning, and instead of having Olmedo Saenz up there with a runner in scoring position, he has to hit for Mike Rose with two outs and nobody on."

2005-06-01 00:20:41
397.   Steve
Right. Shaikin wouldn't know a baseball game if he was sitting on DJ Houlton's head the entire time. Ticket prices and police presence are his sole raison d'etre. Oh, and telling us the Giants record without Barry Bonds in 1992.

I think some of those 100+ plus posts re: Drew bunting were written by a few people other than me, but I could be wrong.

As for every offense being a firable offense, I thought he should have been fired three years ago. Ever offense is a firable offense because I think he already should have been fired. Every idiotic move is just one more nail in the coffin. It's not like there's some threshold event that Jim Tracy has to reach for me. Quantrill/Gagne was it.

Yes, managers are by-the-by very stupid, and I write about the other ones over at FJT every once in a while. I refuse to grade on a curve. Dusty Baker handed us a golden opportunity by screwing up the 9th inning, and we handed it right back! Where's the advantage in that? How is that any different than the Cito Gaston strategy -- "cancel out as many of the other side's stupid mistakes as you possibly can?"

And finally, the default position is not "It's all Jim Tracy's fault." More than me have talked about our woeful starting pitching and others (though I'm still not buying it -- that was Carlos Zambrano out there) have talked about the offense. We talk in absolute terms, but the more correct and oft-explained meaning is exactly how Nick explained it -- not maximizing the marginal chances we have in each situation. Sure, Odalis Perez with the bases loaded might have "worked out," but at what cost to find out? Sure, these bunts might have "worked out" but at what costs? Again, Jim Tracy gets the level of blame he deserves. If you assigned 100 blame points every night, how many would he have gotten tonight? Now add them up over the last 50 games. We don't know how much a manager can affect a game. But shouldn't the first principle be "Do no harm?"

And if it takes Cito Gaston not to run Choi on a full count pitch to Mike Rose, then yes, I approve of him wholeheartedly.

2005-06-01 00:27:28
398.   Steve
Tracy is such an idiot. Even in his own parallel bizarro universe.


He doesn't even make sense on his own terms, much less reality's.

2005-06-01 00:29:00
399.   Bob Timmermann
Good night, Steve. I hope you enjoy your life.
2005-06-01 00:38:01
400.   LAT
One point I will agree with is that JT's after the game explinations are lame. If he wanted to get to Old Maid than, as Steve says, just pull Choi. But couldn't he have let Choi hit and then pull Rose for Old Maid and gone with Phillips if we needed a C for another inning?
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-06-01 00:54:32
401.   GoBears
I'm with Bob. I actually agree with most of the substance of the complaints here re: JT, bunting, etc. But I can't take the game chat any more. My solution for the last week or so has been to watch the game sans computer, and then check in afterwards. I read through all the comments, but the "histrionics" bother me a lot less after the fact (during the game, my reaction is "yeah, yeah, I know - you don't have to point it out!" I still love this blog, and thank Jon for his posts, but for me, the commentary is much more interesting between games than during. Maybe that's just me. As long as everyone is having fun...
2005-06-01 01:09:35
402.   untitled instrumental demo
I just hope this is the low point...

One (no) hit.

Seems the only Dodger offensive certainties right now are singles by Cesar, called 3rd strikes, popups, and GIDP by everyone else.

2005-06-01 04:32:30
403.   Langhorne
I have never liked Jim Tracy as manager. I think he is a high school coach at best. He reminds me of the novices in Las Vegas that have a little card that tells them what to do in any situation at the 21 table. Tracy has his card and does not deviate from it. It happens that I disagree with several of the things on that card. That said, I have never thought that a manager has a huge effect on a team winning or losing. Certainly not nearly as much as the players. If their are 100 blame points to give, the Dodger offense gets 99 tonight. They didn't get it done. I will assume that their are 100 credit points as well. 99 of those go to the Cubs pitching tonight. Their offense didn't shine either. I don't like Drew bunting in the 9th but that didn't lose the game. There were still two more batters with a chance to win the game. They didn't. You could have resurrected Harry Wright, Connie Mack and John McGraw as co-managers tonight and it wouldn't have made any difference. Although I would probably defend Jim Tracy's job to the death if he dressed like Mack for every game. It's 4:30 am, no one will see it but I've said my piece and I can now go to sleep.
2005-06-01 06:11:29
404.   Xeifrank
Would you like to lower the Dodgers chances of winning each night by a few percentage points? If you don't mind doing so, or your rationale is, what's a few percentage points we are probably going to lose anyways, then you are probably a fan of Jim Tracy's. Over a 162 game season a few percentage points from each game will lead to a couple of losses. Divisions and playoff berths are often times won by a slim margin. Sure, our starting pitching or lack of a #5 starter may cost us more wins than the moronic managerial decisions eminating from underneath Jim Tracy's baseball cap. There are plenty of things that need to be fixed on the field, I would never disagree with that. But Jim Tracy is also a hinderance to our winning. We have won in spite of Jim Tracy in the early going, and lost with his help during the slump. Would the Dodgers be better off without Jim Tracy? Yes! Would replacing Jim Tracy with another manager who makes poor decisions be of any help? Of course not. We need a manager out of the same mold as DePodesta. Or perhaps a sabermetrics training class to whoever Depo finds to replace Tracy. I think Tracy is an old dog, and he is incapable of learning any new tricks. I could give a rats ass if Tracy is 60 or even 600 games above .500 as the manager of the Dodgers. In general teams win and lose with it's players, not it's manager, but a bad manager can affect the outcome of enough games to keep a decent team out of the playoffs. The Dodgers are a decent team. They aren't going to win 100 games, probably not even 90 games. But they could easily win enough to win the division or be a wild-card team.

Why wouldn't you want to give your team the best chance it has of winning? (within the rules and monetary restraints).

I ask the Jim Tracy Marching and Chowder Society members to answer the above question.



2005-06-01 07:02:24
405.   Fearing Blue
#404/etc.: First, let me point out that I am not a member of the Jim Tracy Marching and Chowder Society. I have likely called for his head as many times as anyone not named Steve. But, for the most part, that's just the emotions of being a fan and reading this board. I live and die with this team during the season.

Now for the defense of Tracy. There seem to be two aspects to managing a baseball team, leadership and in-game decision making. Leadership is extremely hard to quantify, but my gut feeling is that Tracy is strong in this area. In-game decision making is much easier to quantify, and most of the posters on the board seem to have a good sense of it already.

As far as leadership goes, players like playing for Tracy and he has not been handed the easiest bunch to work with (Bradley, Kent, Drew, Weaver, Brown, Perez, etc.). We are all sabermetrically inclined, so we like to believe that things that cannot be quantified do not exist. But, if you asked each poster on this board whether they work harder / better for a good leader, I imagine the majority would answer yes. Why should we assume it's any different in baseball?

As far as in-game decision making, Tracy follows the book. Unfortunately, it's the same, often wrong, book that every other manager in baseball follows. I don't think we should grade on a curve, therefore we should point out when a managerial decision lowers our chance of winning (even marginally). But, we should still have perspective to realize that the other Los Angeles manager is significantly worse and he just won the World Series a few years ago. Additionally, as GoBears stated, even making optimal managerial decisions, it will only increase our winning chances by a small amount. The 25 guys we run out on the field make a lot more difference than the coaches sitting in the dugout.

It would be extremely difficult for DePodesta to bring a saber-savvy individual into the clubhouse. He'd be trading off too much leadership for too little in terms of in-game results. Besides, the media firestorm that he has already created would pale in comparison.

So, as an intellectual fan, I get extremely angry when Tracy makes decisions that aren't rational. But, the next morning I wake up and am thankful that we aren't instead managed by Scioscia, Alou, Baker, Robinson, McKeon, ...

2005-06-01 07:32:00
406.   Xeifrank
Fearing Blue.

Fair enough. At the very minimum Tracy needs a training class. If he's not willing to make an attempt to improve his in game managerial skills then I still say let him go and replace him with someone who has leadership skills and is willing to manage by the correct book. How hard could that possibly be. Just because other managers are bad or worse than Tracy is not an excuse to give Tracy a free pass and collect $200. If you are correct in your statement that their are two skillsets for a manager, leadership and in game decisions, one that cannot be quantified the other that can, and Tracy is failing in the one that can be quantified and there is not way to know for certain how well he is doing in the other then Tracy has some problems.



2005-06-01 07:59:56
407.   Marty
Man, I lose my internet connection for most of the game and come back to find we are turning on ourselves :)

Perhaps it is time for another group hug jon?

2005-06-01 08:26:12
408.   Sam DC
Having been burdened by the need to respond at length to a number of taunting emails from my Cub-fan friends this morning, I'd just like to say, what a bizarre game. We get only one hit over 10 innings, but manage to score a run and leave 5 men on base. Cubs get 10 hits, but score only 2. And despite our measly 1 hit, we did line a number of hard shots right at folks, and Neifi! made two incredible grabs. On top of that, Ledee botches an easy single, then strolls after the loose ball in an extra inning game! To my mind, many, many things could easily have broken differently in this game.

On the Big Question of our times, while I'm no bunt maven, and while I personally would not have bunted Drew or Choi in those spots (esp. once Choi got to 2-0), I have a hard time seeing Tracey's decisions as indefensible. As others have noted, giving up the chance of a multi-run inning -- one key cost of sacraficing an out -- didn't matter at that point. I lack skills to run the numbers, but was the chance of getting a single run really reduced by no-out bunting the runner into SP with Kent/Ledee coming up in the Ninth or Rose/Saenz in the Tenth? At that point in the game, Drew and Choi had no hits and one walk between them.

Anyhow, not trying to reopen the argument, I just think it was an odd game and a tough loss.

Now, if we only manage one hit against Koronka tonight . . . .

2005-06-01 08:44:20
409.   Fearing Blue
The Angels - White Sox game is televised on ESPN tonight. Anyone who wants to feel better about Tracy should watch those two jokers manage their teams. It should be a battle to see who can give away the most outs.
2005-06-01 08:55:10
410.   Bob Timmermann
After the last two losses, San Diego has resumed its place as the only team in the NL West that has outscored its opponents.

It's really weird how the Padres have seemingly avoided detection by anyone outside the West Coast.
Most of the stories in baseball this year seem to be about big market and/or famous teams not doing well: Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Cubs, Giants.

Meanwhile the Padres, Orioles, and White Sox just sort of chug along.

And Texas has taken the lead in the AL West.

2005-06-01 09:00:24
411.   Fearing Blue
The Baseball Prospectus playoff odds report gives the Padres a 77.5% chance of winning the division and a 81.8% chance of making the playoffs. The only team with a higher chance of winning their division is the Rangers at 78.5%, though the Rangers are second to the Padres in probability to make the playoffs at 79.4%. The Dodgers are sitting at 8.6% and 13.3% for the division lead and playoffs respectively. Here's the link:

2005-06-01 09:06:21
412.   Bob Timmermann
I was wondering why the Rangers odds are higher than the Padres despite their smaller lead, but I guess it's because the BPro system doesn't figure that the Angels will fare well according to their RF/RA.
2005-06-01 09:21:36
413.   Fearing Blue
Yeah, that is odd, since the difference in their Pythagoreans records are not that large. Pythagorean puts the Rangers at a 2 game lead over the Angels. Pythagorean puts the Padres at a 5.5 game lead over the Dodgers. It seems that the difference is largely because nobody else in the AL West has a chance, whereas the Diamondbacks, Dodgers, and Giants still have a shot in it in the NL West.
2005-06-01 09:26:46
414.   Bob Timmermann
I see that the Royals' chances are rapidly fading.
2005-06-01 09:38:18
415.   Woody
Can't even stomach discussing Dodger stuff at this point. I think the fadora thing ended during the JFK era. I'm sure people have already said this, but I don't have time to go through 400+ comments. It's time for my mid-day run, something I do have control over. Anyone into the WNBA?
2005-06-01 10:12:48
416.   LAT

"Anyone who wants to feel better about Tracy should watch those two jokers manage their teams."

I would be perfectly happy to have a joker manage the Dodgers if we had the best record in baseball or were one game off the division lead. Its all about the winning. I don't care how we do it.

2005-06-01 10:33:07
417.   Bob Timmermann
Detroit and Sacramento are both off to 3-0 starts.
The Sparks are 3-2.

In the MLS, the Galaxy are 2 points behind FC Dallas, but have played one fewer game.

Chivas USA stinks. They are 1-8-1.

2005-06-01 11:05:13
418.   Fearing Blue
#416: Good point. I'd take the winning any day as well. But, my point is that if we're going to be critical of Tracy for certain strategic decisions, we should be equally critical of other managers, regardless of team standings.
2005-06-01 11:58:42
419.   Bob Timmermann
It was only a matter of time before "Fire Thomas Rongen" worked.
2005-06-01 12:52:47
420.   bokonon42
It seems like the Dodgers have had an overabundence of bad luck, sub-par years (to this point) for four or five important players, and enough gut-instinct management to make a lot of us sick. Of the three, I think Tracy is the least harmful. That is, he hasn't cost us nearly as many games as the stupid luck of only managing one run yesterday, for a loss, while getting four, on Sat., for a loss.

I like Steve's posts; I think he's funny. Sure he's harping, but there's comedy in the repetition. I think a lot of the wrong-way-rubbing is due to general dissappointment with the Dodgers' year, more than any sin on Steve's part. Winning breads chemistry with the players, but maybe even more with the fans. Gibes that are happily taken with a 10-2 team are resented when the same team is 6.5 games out of first. When they're a game and a half back at the All-Star break (Snakes five games out, and plummeting), we'll all be in better moods, I bet.

2005-06-01 13:31:19
421.   Bob Timmermann
I recommend reading Mike's Baseball Rant about the Brooklyn Historical Society. Makes me want to rant too.

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