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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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June 6 Game Chat: Bad OPS Beginnings
2005-06-06 16:51
by Jon Weisman

Tonight's Game

* * *

Keith Woolner of Baseball Prospectus put together a list of the players with the worst through-May OPS, minimum 150 plate appearances, since 1972. Dodgers take up three of the top 10 spots:

.419 Alex Gonzalez, 2000
.436 Ozzie Smith, 1979
.440 Ivan DeJesus, 1981
.440 Cristian Guzman, 2005
.450 Garry Templeton, 1986
.452 John Shelby, 1989
.455 Bill Russell, 1981
.455 Billy Ripken, 1988
.457 Alfredo Griffin, 1988
.461 Steve Ontiveros, 1978

* * *

Meanwhile, as a couple of Dodger Thoughts readers pointed out in the comments, ex-Dodger Guillermo Mota has hit the skids in Florida. Perhaps, as Will Carroll surmises, Mota came back from the disabled list too soon.

From the Miami Herald:

To say Mota's season has not gone according to his - or the organization's - script would be an understatement. Mota, projected to fill the closer's spot, has just two saves, spent most of May on the disabled list and now appears to be in McKeon's doghouse.

Mota has given up runs in three of his four relief outings since returning from the DL, including seven in his past two appearances. He coughed up a grand slam in Pittsburgh and was charged with three runs in Saturday's loss.

But McKeon was also miffed that Mota didn't take part in a pregame bullpen workout with Marlins pitching coach Mark Wiley, a sign of indifference to the manager. ... McKeon said he has spoken previously with Mota about his role.

"I know you want to start being a closer, but you've got to start closing out the innings we bring you in and show us you're worthy of being in line of doing the same job that [Todd] Jones is doing right now," McKeon said he told Mota. "We need him to be back to the Mota he was last year."

* * *

Rich Lederer of Baseball Analysts has another update on the NCAA baseball postseason, including the sad note that Stanford went down in a 12-inning defeat, when Cardinal starting pitcher Greg Reynolds allowed a home run to his 44th batter, leading off the top of the 12th. The local games, Cal State Fullerton-Arizona and USC-Pepperdine, are tonight, Lederer reminds us. Keep visiting Baseball Analysts for coverage of NCAA baseball and the Tuesday major league draft.

Comments (259)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-06-06 16:54:57
1.   Bob Timmermann
Alfredo Griffin had 3 bases loaded triples in 1988 though. That tied the major league record for that feat.

I really scratched my head when Griffin joined the Dodgers. I didn't scratch that much until the Dodgers acquired Juan Samuel. The thought of Juan Samuel makes me agitated.

2005-06-06 17:01:55
2.   Xeifrank
I see Bob is hitting leadoff again. I will bat in the 2 slot and bunt him over to 2nd.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 17:03:37
3.   Bob Timmermann
Getting out of the 1990s for a day...

Random Dodger game callback

June 6, 1940

The Brooklyn Dodgers kept up their hot start to the 1940 season with their fifth straight win, earning a series sweep over the Cardinals with a 9-5 win at Sportsman's Park in St. Louis. The Dodgers were now 26-11 and 1 game behind leader Cincinnati. A crowd of 1,802 looked on.

Player manager Leo Durocher drove in three runs, an impressive total for the weak-hitting shortstop, who drove in only 14 all season. (Eventually, Durocher would realize that his best shortstop was a rookie from Kentucky named Pee Wee Reese.) Center fielder Dixie Walker homered and first baseman Dolph Camilli drove in two runs. Luke Hamlin picked up the win with help from reliever Newt Kimball.

The Cardinals got a home run from first baseman Johnny Mize who belted 43 for the Cardinals to lead the National League in 1940. Mize also led in RBI with 137. Cardinals manager Ray Blades, a shrewd judge of talent, had Mize batting seventh that day. Blades was fired by the Cardinals the next day. Blades would later be an interim manager for the Dodgers in 1947.

Six days after the game, the Cardinals sent outfielder Joe Medwick to Brooklyn along with pitcher Curt Davis in exchange for Ernie Koy, Carl Doyle, Sam Nahem, and Bert Haas. Medwick would hit 14 of his 17 home runs on the season for Brooklyn and soon became a fan favorite in Brooklyn.

Durocher had a good pitching staff, but had a hard time finding a rotation that stayed both healthy and effective. The Dodgers used 12 different starting pitchers. Whitlow Wyatt was the best of the bunch going 15-14 with a 3.46 ERA. In just 20 games, veteran Fred Fitzsimmons went 16-2 and 2.81.

After the sweep in St. Louis, the Dodgers headed to play the defending NL champion Reds at Crosley Field. The Dodgers could only manage a split of the four game set, including a 23-2 defeat. The Dodgers and Reds jockeyed back and forth for first, but the Reds went 20-8 in August to pull away and win the National League by 12 games over the Dodgers and the World Series over the Tigers in seven games.

The 1940 Dodgers were actually better on the road than at home. Brooklyn went 47-28 on the road and only 41-37 at home. The Dodgers also brought up rookie Pete Reiser in midseason, who would be a key player in 1941. One Dodger who got lucky in 1940 was seldom-used outfielder Jimmy Ripple. After playing just seven games with Brooklyn, the Dodgers sold Ripple for the waiver price to Cincinnati. Ripple managed to get into 32 games in the regular season for the Reds and then played in all seven games of the World Series and batted .333 with a homer and 6 RBI, patching up a hole that the Reds had in left field for most of the season.

Thanks to the New York Times, and Retrosheet

2005-06-06 17:04:19
4.   Jim Hitchcock
Griffin also had a game winning HR in '88. He was so stunned he stopped at second, and had to be revived with oxygen.
2005-06-06 17:11:06
5.   the OZ
Speaking of bad hitters to have GW HRs in 1988, Joey Hamilton had one on September 11 against the Reds.

I was at that game and the ball landed about 6 rows in fornt of my uncle, cousin, and I in the LF pavilion. Since I was a smallish child, I thought Joey Hamilton must be an awesome player. After all, he hit a GW HR. I grew up, discovered Retrosheet, and realized that in the context of his career, it was probably the greatest thing he ever did on a baseball diamond.

2005-06-06 17:20:36
6.   Xeifrank
Not sure if this has been posted here before as it's about a week old. FB turned me on to the beyondtheboxscore site and they have a chart with the top 10 players with the "emptiest" batting averages, defined as secondary average minus batting average. As of 5/31 Izturis leads this group with a -.209 (SecAvg - BatAvg).

SecAvg is: (TB - H + BB + SB - CS) / AB

vr, Xei

2005-06-06 17:21:47
7.   Xeifrank
See you sometime after the baby gets put down for the night. Remember tonight's over/under for Lowe is 6 1/3 IPs.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 17:25:11
8.   Bob Timmermann
Guys named Lee stay hot. Carlos just had his sixth straight in 6 ABs for the Brewers. They're ahead of the Yankees 2-0 in the first.
2005-06-06 17:33:53
9.   molokai
Just to about to head out to the game with my wife and 3 girls from her 4th grade class. They used up my 4 tickets so I needed another ticket for tonight. Cruised Ebay and won a bid of two tickets one aisle from my tickets for 1.00. Yes that is one dollar. Very cool.
Hope to extend my one game winning streak. I started wearing a different hat yesterday so I'm sure that was the reason that Werth woke up. Hope Bonderman is shaken by his 1st visit to Dodger Stadium.
2005-06-06 17:38:10
10.   Marty
Hasn't Kent gone seven for his last seven?
2005-06-06 17:39:09
11.   Linkmeister
"A crowd of 1,802 looked on."

Best baseball town in America, huh? Maybe now, but apparently not then.

molokai, a lousy buck for a ticket? I'd never have thought of looking on E-bay for a ticket.

2005-06-06 17:57:32
12.   Jim Hitchcock
Yes he is, Marty.

Molokai had a ten game losing streak beforelast night. Don't make us come looking for you, Molokai!

2005-06-06 17:58:11
13.   Jim Hitchcock
Rather, yes he has, Marty.
2005-06-06 18:17:58
14.   Bob Timmermann
June 6, 1940 was a Thursday.

But the Cardinals only drew 324,000 in 1940.
The Dodgers had the highest attendance in the NL at 975,000.

The Yankees drew about 10,000 more and Detroit topped a million.

Depending upon when school let out, I realized that my mother might have been at that game. She was a "Knothole Gang" member for the Cardinals.
And I know she saw Johnny Mize play in St. Louis.

2005-06-06 18:27:51
15.   Linkmeister
Random thought: that 1,800 is slightly less than 1/2 the number of Allied dead on D-day four years later.
2005-06-06 18:30:07
16.   Bob Timmermann
The Cardinals led the NL in attendance in 1901.

And then not again until 1967-68. And again in 1987, 1989, and 1999.

The Cardinals had the 6th best attendance in the NL last year.

1. Dodgers
2. Giants
3. Phillies
4. Cubs
5. Astros

2005-06-06 18:33:29
17.   Brian Y
Franquelis Osario IN, Wilson Alvarez OUT to the DL
2005-06-06 18:34:29
18.   Bob Timmermann
I believe that Mr. Osario will be the first Dodger player named Franquelis.
2005-06-06 18:35:22
19.   Brian Y
I wonder if Charley Steiner will ever learn the Dodger players' names. Or if he really thinks Odalis Perez went back on the DL from the DL?
2005-06-06 18:36:49
20.   Brian Y
I am very interested in seeing what Mr. Osario does because I do believe this is an audition or they would have brough back Buddy Carlisle :-) Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey Hey, GoodBye Gio or Erickson!
2005-06-06 18:39:36
21.   Bob Timmermann
I am also certain that Erickson will be sent packing long before Carrara.

Carrara at least has a track record of being respectable at times. Erickson is done. Carrara is just mostly done.

2005-06-06 18:41:10
22.   Brian Y
Erickson will be gone when Dessens comes back, Thompson is gone when Odalis comes back, and when Wilson Alvarez comes back....I think it's Gio's turn.
2005-06-06 18:42:22
23.   Brian Y
Frank McCourt on Dodger Dugout
2005-06-06 18:43:13
24.   Fearing Blue
#17: Hey Brian, I'm only correcting you, because I consistenly spell his name incorrectly as well. His last name is Osoria, but for some reason Osario just seems more natural.
2005-06-06 18:44:17
25.   Fearing Blue
#20: They've already DFA'ed Buddy twice, so I guess the figured to go with a guy who they plan to keep on the 40-man roster.
2005-06-06 18:45:12
26.   Bob Timmermann
Fortunately, Johnny Orsino has retired or we'd be in real trouble.
2005-06-06 18:45:32
27.   Brian Y
Thanks Fearing, OK, I hope Mr. Osaria does well :-) Yeah doesnt come out as clean as Osario does but I guess since it's his name I should learn to spell it and say it correctly.
2005-06-06 18:46:58
28.   Brian Y
We could've brought Schmoll back up if we just wanted another arm. I think we are ready to see how this kid does up here. Franquelis Osaria....remember the name kids, he's our next set-up man so Brazoban can get traded.
2005-06-06 18:50:58
29.   Vic
As I recall "baseball's slowest runners" being a topic of conversation the other day, can someone who follows the Angels more closely than I do explain why in the hell Bengie Molina was thrown out attempting to steal a base today? For the second time this season, no less?
2005-06-06 18:52:27
30.   Bob Timmermann
Are they ever going to post the lineups for today's game. Or are Trammell and Tracy continually erasing?

"No, Alan, you can't use a DH."

"Hey Jim, Choi can't play third base."

2005-06-06 18:53:09
31.   Brian Y
#29, I am hoping it was a busted hit and run so it wouldnt be so easy to pull a DP on him. Because Bengie Molina isn't one of the slowest runners in baseball, he is the SLOWEST!
2005-06-06 18:55:46
32.   Bob Timmermann
Bengie Molina could race a 5-year old girl with a marriage contract for her adulthood and still come in third.
2005-06-06 19:07:03
33.   Fearing Blue
#30: Perhaps Jim Tracy is trying to think of some plausible-sounding excuse for why he's not going to start Choi this time?
2005-06-06 19:08:40
34.   Brian Y
Perhaps they are discussing an Erickson for Kirk Gibson trade so we can insert Gibby into LF to get the extra lefty.
2005-06-06 19:09:05
35.   Bob Timmermann
Choi is starting and batting seventh.

Repko is batting 2nd and playing RF.

Dmitri Young is going to be playing 1B instead of DH for Detroit.

2005-06-06 19:09:41
36.   Jim Hitchcock
Trivia Time. What statement did Kirk Gibson make when he retired from baseball?

Winner gets a copy of `The Ministers Quartet- Let Me Touch Him'.

2005-06-06 19:10:10
37.   Bob Timmermann
UCLA won Game 1 of the Women's College World Series, 5-0 over Michigan.

For that level of softball, 5-0 is like 15-0.

2005-06-06 19:11:33
38.   Fearing Blue
Lineups finally posted, everybody that should be in the lineup is in the lineup except Repko is playing over Ledee. Any thoughts why Repko is in and batting 2nd?
2005-06-06 19:11:57
39.   Bob Timmermann
Carlos Lee has now reached base 8 straight times.

If you're a fantasy player, I say invest in Travis Lee. He's next!

2005-06-06 19:12:32
40.   Jim Hitchcock
Juan Samuel! Bob, it's Juan Samuel!
2005-06-06 19:13:21
41.   Fearing Blue
Perhaps lineup read a study that an optimal lineup strategy was to ensure that one of the top two batters has an OBP under .300 in every game?
2005-06-06 19:13:21
42.   Linkmeister
I think I read that Ledee has some sort of strained appendage.
2005-06-06 19:13:51
43.   Fearing Blue
#41: Wow. That's not English at all. Should read, "Perhaps Tracy read..."
2005-06-06 19:14:02
44.   Vic
38 -- Isn't the answer obvious? You've got a hitter with a line of .227/.292/.409, clearly, you have to put him in a position to succeed.
2005-06-06 19:14:11
45.   Bob Timmermann
I'm not turning on the TV until the Angels game is over.

It is really weird watching the Angels play in Atlanta. It seems so out of place.

2005-06-06 19:14:27
46.   Mark Linsey
38-Don't know why Repko is playing, but given that he is, Tracy has liked playing rookies in the 2 spot several times this season so they see more pitches to hit.
2005-06-06 19:14:53
47.   Uncle Miltie
Why isn't Perez batting 2nd? I guess he isn't gritty enough.
2005-06-06 19:16:20
48.   Bob Timmermann
I think Repko's main talent is scrap, not grit.

And he's good at getting hit by pitches.

2005-06-06 19:17:02
49.   adg
Bondermans picture on Gameday looks AWFULLY pale. He needs to spend the next two days in LA catching some rays overtime.
2005-06-06 19:20:56
50.   Adam M
re: GW hits, I remeber in the late 80s some baseball card company (Fleer?) did a special "Heroes" series focused on stars and also players who led their teams in game-winning RBI. A lot of Joe Shlabotniks in that bunch. I'm just saying.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-06-06 19:23:17
51.   Fearing Blue
#48: Perez and Repko may have a contest going for HBPs. Repko has been hit 4 times in 97 PAs and Perez has been hit 3 times in 68 PAs.
2005-06-06 19:24:27
52.   Adam M
OT but interesting piece of trivia:

The Miami Heat currently have the #1, 2 and 3 picks from the 1992 Draft on their roster. Believe this is the first and only time this has happened.

Reminiscent of the early 90s when Al Davis went nuts trying to sign every Heisman winner he could.

2005-06-06 19:27:20
53.   Bob Timmermann
The GWRBI was a noble idea, but its definition "an RBI that gives a team a lead that it never relinquishes" didn't necessarily prove that there were "clutch" players, it meant that teams that got the lead early tended to win.

The all time leader (it was kept from 1980-1988) was Keith Hernandez.

The last GWRBI awarded in baseball was in Game 5 of the 1988 World Series. And its owner is none other than Mickey Hatcher.

Game 1 was Gibson of course
Game 2 was Stubbs
Game 3 was McGwire
Game 4 didn't have one. The Dodgers first runs scored on a passed ball.

2005-06-06 19:27:44
54.   Fearing Blue
Broxton pitched very well tonight. He threw 6 innings with 9 Ks, 0 BBs, 4 Hs, and 0 Rs. Jacksonville is up 10-0 in the bottom of the 8th.
2005-06-06 19:30:38
55.   Marty
I just got home. 2-0 Tigers. Is this the bad Lowe, or a victim of circumstance?
2005-06-06 19:30:59
56.   Mark Linsey
Nice effort by Kent but I think there wasn't any way he was getting the out in the first place and the risk of it totally backfiring (as it did) was relatively high.
2005-06-06 19:31:53
57.   Mark Linsey
55-One of the runs was two quick doubles, one of them was a throwing error on Kent. Other than the doubles Lowe has looked pretty good.
2005-06-06 19:32:30
58.   Fearing Blue
#56: Yeah, especially with the pitcher coming up next. But, it's impossible to factor all that in when you're making the play.
2005-06-06 19:34:45
59.   Bob Timmermann
This is probably a slightly better version of Bonderman than we faced in 2003.

As are the Tigers overall.

2005-06-06 19:40:04
60.   Bob Timmermann
Another hit for Carlos Lee. Nine straight times on base for Carlos.
2005-06-06 19:41:23
61.   los angeles dragons
Hello all! I've been reading this site more than any other in recent weeks and just registered. Wanted to thank all for the informative, insightful, and often hilarious posts. Cheers to Jon Weisman.

vamos azul! vamos a ganar!

2005-06-06 19:42:10
62.   Brian Y
BS Error on Perez, Kent was on the bag!
2005-06-06 19:43:03
63.   Vishal
is it just me or does vinny tend to side with the umpires no matter what the replay says?
2005-06-06 19:43:20
64.   Ben P
I love Vin Scully but does he ever question a call? He watched that same replay we did, on which it was very clear Kent had stayed on the bag.
2005-06-06 19:44:09
65.   Ben P
You beat me to it, Vishal.

I like that Vinny's not a homer the way so many announcers are, but come on...

2005-06-06 19:49:50
66.   Brian Y
And the scouts said Perez didn't have the arm to play SS or 3B. Pssh I say!
2005-06-06 19:51:14
67.   Nick Iyengar
This kid Bonderman is good. I wonder if we can get to him -- most of the current Dodgers have never faced him, right?
2005-06-06 19:52:18
68.   Marty
Get to him? Maybe we can get him in a trade.
2005-06-06 19:58:32
69.   Fearing Blue
#68: Good luck. I can't think of any reason the Tigers would trade him, unless they just don't like winning period (now or in the future).
2005-06-06 19:58:56
70.   Marty
61. Welcome aboard matey.
2005-06-06 19:59:43
71.   Marty
FB, just postulating... :)
2005-06-06 20:01:13
72.   Fearing Blue
That was a very scrappy homerun.
2005-06-06 20:02:20
73.   Ben P
You get the credit, Nick. We're getting to him.
2005-06-06 20:03:16
74.   Adam M
I don't trust this list - what happened to Daryle Ward and his one-double Dodger tenure a few seasons back? Not enough ABs?
2005-06-06 20:04:03
75.   Fearing Blue
#71: Indeed. He's going to be great pitcher and a young free agent at 26 years old. Maybe we'll get him then :).
2005-06-06 20:05:41
76.   Fearing Blue
#61: Welcome Dragons. Unless you're discussing Firing (or not Firing) Jim Tracy, the crowd here is always very friendly :).
2005-06-06 20:10:02
77.   Marty
Suffering Bruin was supposed to be back online today. Hmmm...I'd be amazed if his carrier was wrong on the date they gave him.
2005-06-06 20:11:14
78.   Jim Hitchcock
What's up, Dragons?

Will Hee Seop eat meat tonight?

2005-06-06 20:13:59
79.   Nick Iyengar
Antonio Perez now perilously close to falling below the .400 line. Uh-oh...
2005-06-06 20:15:34
80.   the OZ
I have a feeling that Hee Seop is a Big Leaguer now, he feasts freely on delicious eel every night regardless of his performance.
2005-06-06 20:15:34
81.   Steve
Stop bunting Repko.

Another blown call? Well, the umpires made a hash of the Cards/Red Sox game today, and so it goes, with the umpires devolving into drooling zombies before our very eyes.

2005-06-06 20:17:20
82.   Langhorne
An update on the CWS Regionals. Fullerton is up 6-1 after five. USC is beating Pepperdine 2-1 in the third after scoring 2 in the first without a hit. A combination of two walks, a HBP, a balk, a wild pitch and a SF got SC their runs. The Pepperdine pitcher might be Dodger material. JT's son Chad is 0-1 for the Wave.
2005-06-06 20:22:08
83.   Adam M
Hee Seop eats meat for not swinging at a pitch for the first time in about 5-6 games.

Speaking of meat, good to see the Rev. Horton Heat's outstanding "Eat Steak" getting some deerved recognition in a commercial. In a just universe, "Bales of Cocaine" will be next, reworked as "Bales of Rogaine," perhaps.

2005-06-06 20:24:02
84.   Clive Clements
#36 - Jim, do you really have that record? That's a great cover, though it's not as awesome as the cover of John Holt's "Julie's sixteenth birthday."

I just looked the quote up - Gibson said something like "I'm retiring to my family."

2005-06-06 20:25:59
85.   Adam M
Holy crap, when did I become Peter Gammons?
2005-06-06 20:27:38
86.   Bob Timmermann
This game is proceeding along at a good clip.

On Drew's triple, Steiner called it a home run at first.

2005-06-06 20:27:43
87.   Jim Hitchcock
Close enough for a winner, Clive...he said "I'm
being traded back to my family".

Uh, I'll get back to you on your prize :)

2005-06-06 20:29:55
88.   Sam NYC
Choi has zero extra base hits, eight singles, and four RBI in his last 51 at-bats.

He has zero walks in his last 44 plate appearances.

He has three or more at-bats in 11 of the last 16 games.

He's awesome.

2005-06-06 20:30:33
89.   Nick Iyengar
Vin says Wilson is on the DL and Franquelis (spelling?) Osoria has been called up. What's the story with Osoria?
2005-06-06 20:31:20
90.   Bob Timmermann
See the early posts about Sr. Osoria. There in the teens.
2005-06-06 20:31:35
91.   Bob Timmermann
They're in the teens.
2005-06-06 20:31:42
92.   Vic
Senor Kent es en fuego!
2005-06-06 20:31:50
93.   Mark Linsey
2005-06-06 20:33:08
94.   adg
Don Kent está que quema!
2005-06-06 20:33:09
95.   Marty
Thank you Jeff...
2005-06-06 20:34:10
96.   Bob Timmermann
Wouldn't it be?

Senor Kent esta en fuego. (Forgetting the accents).

Isn't "en fuego" a temporary condition? Like being happy or sad or sick?

2005-06-06 20:34:36
97.   the OZ
HOly Mackerel! Did anyone catch that replay close-up of Bonderman after he gave up the HR?

A primal scream if I've ever seen one...

2005-06-06 20:34:36
98.   Bob Timmermann
Someone was thinking ahead of me.
2005-06-06 20:34:40
99.   Icaros
Kent's HR killed this Dodgers rally.
2005-06-06 20:34:56
100.   Jim Hitchcock
Wow, a HR with ROB...what a concept.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-06-06 20:35:10
101.   Vic
Ack, you are correct, sir. A year and a half removed from my college Spanish class, and I'm already forgetting the basics...
2005-06-06 20:35:32
102.   adg
Maybe quemando, like burning. Not sure that on fire can translate word-for-word.
2005-06-06 20:35:54
103.   Jim Hitchcock
Me too, Bob. Sam, that scream should be reaching you
2005-06-06 20:37:25
104.   Mark Linsey
"Isn't "en fuego" a temporary condition? Like being happy or sad or sick?"

Well, we're hoping that from now on it will be a permanent part of Kent's nature and not a temporary thing.

2005-06-06 20:39:03
105.   Xeifrank
Over/Under for Lowe tonight was 6 1/3 innings pitched and he is on the brink of getting an "over" tonight.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 20:41:15
106.   adg
In Vegas, how would they score it if Lowe is pulled after getting one out in the seventh? Or would they have had the Over/Under at something like 6.4 innings (decimal on purpose)?
2005-06-06 20:42:05
107.   Jim Hitchcock
Practice makes perfect.
2005-06-06 20:42:09
108.   adg
Regardless, dude is cruising...
2005-06-06 20:43:45
109.   Mark Linsey
Not only has he now gotten the over, but if he continues to be as brutally efficient as he has been the last couple innings he could cruise to a CG.
2005-06-06 20:44:14
110.   Xeifrank
106. Maybe on of our big vegas gamblers can answer that question. I never played the over/under on football or basketball games. If it ended up right on the line, I'd imagine either both sides lose, or all bets are refunded. Somehow, the all bets are refunded sounds a bit too good to be true. Very good question. How can Elmo learn more about the over/under?
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 20:44:54
111.   dzzrtRatt
Looks like the BUWJT (Break Up with Jim Tracy) thread died out before I could jump in, but my little thought on the topic is this: It sounds like a good idea, but it's not the most important thing DePodesta should be thinking about now--not nearly. Firing Jim Tracy, selecting a replacement and getting him up to speed would eat up a month at least, with no guarantee the outcome would be any better. Before he expends a month doing that, I'd want DePodesta focused on the draft, the July 31 trading deadline, and monitoring the progress of our buffet table of prospects in order to understand who among them is real and when.

I would endorse F-ing JT at the end of the season. Although he has points of excellence, his maddening managerial decisions do warrant action. He does not seem to get the point of DePodesta's team assembly philosophy. It's time for DePo to pick his own guy. But doing that now would put this season off course at minimum. And who knows, maybe Tracy can win it all this year and save his job. Last year, the sword of Damocles got our third baseman to hit 48 home runs. The prospect of a hanging concentrates the mind.

2005-06-06 20:45:38
112.   adg
I say leave him in. Only 73 pitches.
2005-06-06 20:45:40
113.   Xeifrank
Yes, 73 pitches in 7 full innings does have the making of a CG if all goes well.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 20:46:14
114.   adg
Have the hook nearby at hand, though.
2005-06-06 20:46:41
115.   kegtron
Vegas (as in my online account) usually has 1/3 and 2/3 lines. If it ties there is no action and you get your money back.
2005-06-06 20:46:53
116.   Xeifrank
Will we see our first bunt of the night?
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 20:47:51
117.   Nick Iyengar
What do we think of Lowe being allowed to bat? I'm against it.
2005-06-06 20:47:54
118.   adg
In basketball, don't they have a line with fractional points? Like Spurs by 5.5 points.
2005-06-06 20:48:40
119.   adg
Why bunt? WTF? What happened to Phillips?
2005-06-06 20:49:42
120.   Xeifrank
Attempting a bunt was just stupid, and then Phillips gets thrown out at 3rd on the missed attempt, then of all things Lowe follows with a single. haha! FJT!!! haha! What a joke, if we weren't ahead by 2 runs, I'd throw something, but I will just laugh this one off instead. Another amusing tidbit is the win exp before the bunt was something like 96% and with a successful bunt and Phillips moved to 3rd would have dropped down to something like 93%.... Don't stand so close to me. :)
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 20:49:49
121.   mikethinksblue
how slow is Phillips, they just showed Rodriguez triple clutch, step around Lowe, and still throw him out at third
2005-06-06 20:49:57
122.   Bob Timmermann
In La Opinion, on first reference, Milwaukee is called "Los Cerveceros", which makes sense.

But the rest of the time, the writer calls them "los lupulosos"

I'm open for suggestions. It seems to always refer to teams from Milwaukee.

2005-06-06 20:50:10
123.   Fearing Blue
I would endorse F-ing JT at the end of the season.

You're still talking about firing, right?

2005-06-06 20:50:14
124.   Jim Hitchcock
Lowe bunted his last time at bat, XF.
2005-06-06 20:50:24
125.   adg
Was Phillips caught going to third or picked off 2nd?

Or is everyone still too mad to comment?

2005-06-06 20:50:33
126.   the OZ
Anyone else think that Izturis has NO chance to steal against Pudge?
2005-06-06 20:50:50
127.   Mark Linsey
I think Phillips somehow thought that Lowe hit the ball. I don't think JT called for a bunt-and-run.
2005-06-06 20:50:56
128.   Xeifrank
118. Not all point spreads are fractional points, take a look at NFL lines. Not having bet on over/unders at Vegas before, could it be they are handled different than point spreads anyways???
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 20:51:15
129.   Bob Timmermann
I think Phillips thought he could catch the Tigers sleeping.

They weren't.

He still has not touched third base.

2005-06-06 20:51:28
130.   regfairfield
I would assume that was an aborted something on Phillips being thrown out, since I have enough faith that Tracy wouldn't send Phillips on a straight steal

What happened?

2005-06-06 20:52:01
131.   Mark Linsey
125- With Lowe squared to bunt, he missed (or was it a ball? I forget), and Phillips kept right on going and was thrown out at third.
2005-06-06 20:52:04
132.   Sam NYC
Not only do I think they should play Choi every day, they should clone him 14 times and play a clone at each position, starting pitcher and closer. He is a baseball master, a legend for all ages. He is a man amongst men. He is the definition of baseball, nay, not merely baseball, but indeed of all life. He is the sweet succulent nectar for the hummingbird. His breath is akin to the breeze emanating from an angel's wings.
2005-06-06 20:52:23
133.   mikethinksblue
125 - He must have thought Lowe got the bunt down, but Lowe missed it, then Irod threw him out at third.
2005-06-06 20:53:00
134.   Sam NYC
Today's Fact of Choi (since Suffering Bruin isn't around):

He once turned water into wine.

2005-06-06 20:53:11
135.   Fearing Blue
#125: Inge came in on a failed bunt attempt. Phillips either thought the bunt was down, or thought he could catch Inge too far off the bag, and he took off for 3B. Rodriguez waited until Inge was back at the bag, fired the ball and they got Phillips easily.
2005-06-06 20:54:01
136.   kegtron
Yes, they have it in baseball too. For example:

Milwaukee at +1.5 today paid -115 (lay 115 to win 100).

STL at -1.5 paid +135 (lay 100 to win 135).

I've never seen a X.5 for innings pitched. I do see it for hits/rbi's/runs all the time though.

2005-06-06 20:54:50
137.   Mark Linsey
134-Would rather he turned veggies into meat.
2005-06-06 20:56:03
138.   adg
Or pitches into Home Runs.
2005-06-06 20:56:08
139.   Christina
Wow, someone's bitter that this site isn't a Torch Choi Now site.

I would've liked an insurance run or two, but we're ahead and Drew/Kent are up next inning.

2005-06-06 20:56:30
140.   dzzrtRatt
#123 -- Yes, FJT. Unless he wins the World Series. If he does that, give him a one-year contract extension for less money.

Look, it must be tough for GMs with managers who manage away from the team philosophy. But maybe he could start leaving articles from Hardball Times under his office door anonymously. Someone could write a treatise on when to bunt and when not to, and it could accidentally on purpose wind up on Tracy's windshield.

2005-06-06 20:56:44
141.   Xeifrank
VegasInsider.Com says if a game hits the point spread or over/under exactly then it's a push.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 20:57:14
142.   Fearing Blue
#134: Choi is what he is. A 26 year-old above-average first baseman for the league minimum salary. The reason everyone likes him is we got to save $6 million on Shawn Green and are getting the same production. Additionally, he has a tremendous upside, though being played so inconsistently certainly can't help.
2005-06-06 20:57:18
143.   the OZ
136 -

Wow. The Brewers were favored to beat the Yankees?

2005-06-06 20:58:22
144.   mikethinksblue
OT - Has anyone been to a Hollywood Stars night? I think the wife got tickets to Saturday's game. Is it worth showing up early to see Adam Carolla and Jimmy Kimmel?
2005-06-06 20:59:16
145.   kegtron

Nope, they were dogs. +1.5 means they can lose by a run or win in order for the bet to cash in.

With bullpens blowing leads with regularity this year its sometimes beneficial to take the one run cushion.

2005-06-06 20:59:43
146.   Xeifrank
Good night for local sports fans tonight, Angel won, Dodgers are winning, someone said UCLA softball won, and Shaq lost.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:00:12
147.   adg
Wow, after White, the next four batters are all righty. Certainly bodes well for one of our powerfull bullpen righties.
2005-06-06 21:00:45
148.   Xeifrank
Anyone worried about Lowe giving up a game tying home run? A good time for Gagne or Brazo.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:00:58
149.   champion of choi
134-Choi is Ty freakin Cobb compared to O. Robles
2005-06-06 21:01:38
150.   adg
Now might be the time, Mr. Tracy.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-06-06 21:02:31
151.   Bob Timmermann
Don't get me started on Hollywood Stars Night.

But now I am.

I HATE IT! I have tickets, but I work until 6, so I will miss the excitement of seeing Jimmy Kimmel play softball.

When I was younger, Hollywood Stars Night drew people like Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau.

Now, they advertise Kevin and Bean.

This is not a McCourt thing. Or even a Fox thing. The game started its decline when Lasorda hitched his wagon to prime force of evil in the world:


2005-06-06 21:02:40
152.   the OZ
144 -

I also have tickets, although I dodn't realize it was HS night.

I don't really care about the 'stars' at all, considering they include Jon Lovitz, but you get to walk onto the field to watch the softball game.

I think the chance to be on the field at DS would be totally awesome; to see what the stadium from a player's perspective is something I've never done.

2005-06-06 21:03:09
153.   Dodgers Fan in NorCal
Pretty quick game, huh? Where did all those innings go?
2005-06-06 21:03:11
154.   Xeifrank
yippie, 3 more outs is all we need. Do you think Tracy being the all around good guy he is gives Lowe a chance at the complete game, or do you think logic and reasoning take over and JT brings in Gagne? This is one situation where JT's book and the Sabermetrics book don't clash. I think both say bring in Gagne, but watch JT keep Lowe in there until a man gets into scoring position. Always likes to do things the hard way, doesn't he.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:04:07
155.   Xeifrank
FSN was showing a game recap, did some idiot run out on the field and give one of the Dodger players a hug during the game? That's what it looked like.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:05:06
156.   Christina
146 - I was sorry Shaq lost. Not that I like him particularly, but I would have loved Kobe's reaction.

Well, I'll just have to be content with Kobe not making the playoffs at all this season.

Nice escape, Derek!

2005-06-06 21:05:09
157.   Xeifrank
Sounds like Sam from NYC has been to one too many Star Trek conventions.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:05:23
158.   Bob Timmermann
They let you on the field? Wouldn't that be a security nightmare?"

Here's the list of luminaries:
Jimmy Kimmel - Jimmy Kimmel Live
Adam Carrolla - Jimmy Kimmel Live
Neal McDonough - Walking Tall, Minority Report, Medical Investigation
Sean Astin - Lord of the Rings
Mackenzie Astin - Facts of Life
Jesse Metcalfe - Desperate Housewives
John Silverman - Weekend at Bernies
Jen Finnigan - Crossing Jordan
Jon Lovitz - Saturday Night Live
Sarah Silverman - Comedian/Actress
Rob Schneider - Longest Yard
Carson Daly - Host, "Carson Daly Most Requested", former host, MTV TRL
Jeff Probst - Survivor host
Julie Berry - Survivor Vanuatu
Tony Todd - Little Big League
Michael Clarke Duncan - Daredevil, The Green Mile
Bryan Cranston - Malcolm in the Middle
Jennie Finch - USA Softball, ESPN
Michael Rosenbaum - Smallville
James Van Der Beek - Dawson's Creek
Tom Jane - *61, The Punisher, The Sweetest Thing, Dreamcatcher
Patrick Wayburton - Less Than Perfect, Seinfeld

From the Jimmy Kimmel Show:
Uncle Frank
Cousin Sal
Cleto Escobedo
Super Dave Osborne

Former Dodgers:
Ron Cey
Sweet Lou Johnson

Kevin - KROQ
Bean - KROQ
Money - KROQ

First Pitch:
Tyler Patrick Jones - Bad News Bears

Bat Girl:
Vanessa Lengies - American Dreams
Kate Linder - The Young and the Restless

2005-06-06 21:05:35
159.   mikethinksblue
155 - he was one of the 'kids' allowed to go out before the game to get an autograph. He looked pretty old though, even Vin made a comment about his age.
2005-06-06 21:06:12
160.   overkill94
Re: 120

What is so silly about having the pitcher bunt with a runner on second and no outs? Unless that hitter is Dontrell Willis, I'm pretty sure any manager would do this 99 times out of 100. It's not his fault Phillips is a menace on the bases.

As for yanking Lowe after 7 innings, that would be pretty stupid. He had only thrown 72 pitches and retired the last 10 in a row. Plus, Brazoban has pitched in 8 of the last 11 games so it would be nice to give him a rest when we can. I was hoping they would let Derek go the distance, but I guess the fans will get to hear some GnR next inning.

2005-06-06 21:06:48
161.   Mark Linsey
Looks like JT's bringing in Gagne.

Really, if Lowe had made just a fewer lesss in the 8th I'd have let him go out to pitch the ninth too. This certainly isn't a clear cut case as we usually see.

Anyway, a pitching change by Detroit threated to set back this game's otherwise breakneck pace (in terms of time per inning)

2005-06-06 21:07:01
162.   Jon Weisman
Hi everyone. My book says that when a pitcher is cruising like Lowe is, only 90 pitches through eight, no hits in the past hour or so, and his batting spot isn't coming up in the bottom of the eighth, you let him start the ninth and pitch unless/until a batter reaches base.
2005-06-06 21:07:03
163.   Bob Timmermann
I cut and pasted that from I noticed that they misspelled Jonathan Silverman's first name.

And it's also Patrick Warburton.

Come visit me during the game. Blue Section 19, Row S.

I'll be the grumpy one.

2005-06-06 21:08:33
164.   mikethinksblue
158 - Bob, is that this year's list? Is Mackenzie Astin still famous? Was he ever famous?
2005-06-06 21:08:34
165.   Mark Linsey
On seond thought, Lowe came back to the bench. Gagne still warming up though. Really as long as you have someone warming up I don't see how you can fault him for having Lowe start the ninth.
2005-06-06 21:08:39
166.   Xeifrank
160. There is no added value to a successful sac bunt in that situation. You are not playing for 1 run, or atleast you shouldn't be, when you are up by 2. You should be trying to put the game away. But that is obviously against JT's code of conduct, being the nice guy he is, he likes to give both teams a fair chance of winning.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:10:32
167.   adg
Re: 122 Bob

m. - hops


2005-06-06 21:11:07
168.   Xeifrank
I would not call for the firing of JT if he were to start Lowe in the 9th, I might call for it if he were allowed to pitch the 9th with the tying run at the plate. I don't even think JT is that stupid. I can't really see JT hurting us from this point on. The game is almost JT proof. :)
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:11:09
169.   Sam NYC


I don't mind being made fun of at all, but you make no sense.

2005-06-06 21:11:27
170.   Vic
Mackenzie probably wrangled an invite due to his LOTR-starring brother's attendance.

Who are the starting pitchers? We need an over/under from Xei and some comparative VORC (Value Over Replacement Celebrity) analysis.

2005-06-06 21:11:40
171.   overkill94
Re: 166

I can see that with anyone but the pitcher up, but what can you really expect from him? Yeah he got a little bloop single, but more often than not he would strike out or hit a little dribbler that would not advance the runner. This late in the game I think you go for the one insurance run, assuming that Izzy would be able to score the runner some way.

2005-06-06 21:12:39
172.   Steve
The answer is simple. Glenn Hoffman should have had Phillips go for three, and end the controversy.

I can't imagine why you would save Gagne for save situations, then not use him when they come up.

2005-06-06 21:13:00
173.   Xeifrank
Anyone see Erstad's collision with Estrada? I just read about it in the Angels recap, and it said Estrada left the game crying. NE1 see it and care to comment?
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:13:24
174.   overkill94
As for Hollywood Stars night, it used to be a lot of fun when I was younger, but that list of "stars" is pretty dang laughable. I've never even heard of 1/3 of those people. I have some faith that Kimmel and Carrola will at least make it semi-entertaining though.
2005-06-06 21:13:53
175.   Steve
How's McKenzie Astin's heart and soul? That's the question Hollywood Stars Night will answer.
2005-06-06 21:14:37
176.   Xeifrank
169. Just a taste of your own medicine right? There are so many Sams on this board, if I mixed you up with the one from earlier today I apologize.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:15:05
177.   overkill94
Re: 173

It was pretty brutal. Erstad knew he was gonna be out by a mile so he prepared for the collision about 10 feet up the line. The ball came low and to Estrada's right so he didn't really see the hit coming. Erstad basically form tackled Estrada and his neck got a big whiplash. He might have been concussed, but that's about it.

2005-06-06 21:16:05
178.   overkill94
Re: 173

It was pretty brutal. Erstad knew he was gonna be out by a mile so he prepared for the collision about 10 feet up the line. The ball came low and to Estrada's right so he didn't really see the hit coming. Erstad basically form tackled Estrada and his neck got a big whiplash. He might have been concussed, but that's about it.

2005-06-06 21:16:10
179.   mikethinksblue
173 - Eric Estrada? Was it Hollywood Stars night in Anaheim?
2005-06-06 21:16:28
180.   Xeifrank
177. Erstand is an animal and a throw back to the old days player. Hope Estrada is ok, but that's a part of the game in some respects.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:17:02
181.   Bob Timmermann
Mackenzie Astin was in "Lost". He played Kate's old boyfriend who got killed when she tried to run away from the police.

And his brother is a hobbit.

2005-06-06 21:17:11
182.   overkill94
Stupid unreliable internet making me double-post...
2005-06-06 21:17:21
183.   champion of choi
and McKenzie Austin starred in...?
2005-06-06 21:17:37
184.   Sam NYC
Forget about torching Choi, let's torch Tracy. Did you know that as a youngster Jim Tracy was a neo-Nazi? Shortly thereafter, he became a pedophile mime dedicated to the dark art of witchcraft. For the last four years, in addition to managing the Dodgers, he has drank goat's blood before games to confirm his evilness. In his spare time, he tortures bunnies and makes babies cry. He lives in Canoga Park with his wife and two children.
2005-06-06 21:18:27
185.   Xeifrank
Anyone else not care about Hollywood Stars night? To me, they're just another list of people who have never been in my kitchen.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:18:38
186.   champion of choi
169-How many Sam's are there? and which ones spew hatred towards Choi?
2005-06-06 21:18:52
187.   Bob Timmermann
That's true except that Tracy lives in Claremont.
2005-06-06 21:19:06
188.   adg

And is down with the LBC.

2005-06-06 21:19:09
189.   Xeifrank
Can we hit 200 posts before the game is over? Anything less, would be...
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:19:12
190.   Christina
183 - he was in Lord of the Flies, of course.
2005-06-06 21:19:30
191.   Steve
Next to Snoop.
2005-06-06 21:19:45
192.   Jim Hitchcock
Damn, a 3 game win streak feels good.
2005-06-06 21:20:18
193.   Vic
Wow Sam, you're slaying me. A rare breed of subtle, lacerating humor is in our midst.
2005-06-06 21:20:29
194.   adg
Still perfect vs. the kitties.
2005-06-06 21:20:35
195.   the OZ
I don't have any desire to debate every bunt decision, but I don't mind having Lowe bunt in that situation. The only arguments I can think of to claim he should have been swinging are:

(1) Phillips isn't fast enough to score from 3rd on an Izturis fly ball, since he generally doesn't hit them that deep

(2) Phillips isn't fast enough to score from 3rd on an Izturis ground ball.

(3) Lowe has a good chance of getting a hit - he actually got one, but this is unlikely amd should not be the basis of strategy.

Either way, it's pretty speculative.

2005-06-06 21:21:04
196.   Bob Timmermann
Sam NYC,
To say that the FJT crowd is set in its way is akin to saying that the Carlsbad Caverns are set underground.
2005-06-06 21:21:55
197.   the OZ
but Phillips getting thrown out eliminated the need for a bunt, so it became academic
2005-06-06 21:21:59
198.   Sam NYC
Champion of Choi,

I'm the Sam that bags on Choi. I don't hate him really. I just think it's funny that no matter what he does, people on this site continue to back him and blame everything except Choi for being so bad.

2005-06-06 21:22:01
199.   Xeifrank
Dodgers win!!! Jim Tracy for President!!!
Well, maybe that's the win goggles doing the talking. Only 4 games out, the Padres must be feeling the heat, and if not I don't blame them.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:23:32
200.   champion of choi
Choi is the rally cause for FJT
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-06-06 21:23:45
201.   Steve
195 -- I like either of those first two options, plus the fact that Phillips is not fast enough to get to third on a successful bunt.

Sam confuses Jim Tracy with Barry Bonds.

McKenzie Astin will always be remembered for his touching portrayal of eternal youth in "The Facts of Life"

2005-06-06 21:24:48
202.   Xeifrank
Choi is having a Shawn Green like year so far, just at a bargain basement price tag.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:25:09
203.   Steve
Strange that the guy who runs the FJT website is the only person around here who endorsed the Saenz/Choi platoon. Time to rethink the dichotomy.
2005-06-06 21:25:10
204.   champion of choi
Is Yakoff Smirnov at the Hollywood Stars Night? If not, why?
2005-06-06 21:26:14
205.   Fearing Blue
#184: I should have guessed he was a mime. I hate mimes.
2005-06-06 21:27:22
206.   Bob Timmermann
Yakov Smirnoff will likely being a couple shows in Branson that night.
2005-06-06 21:27:51
207.   Christina
It's all a matter of perspective. I appreciate Choi because up until very recently, I had to put up with Scott Hatteberg playing first for the A's. I mean, have you ever heard of a MLB first baseman who's made 7 errors by this point in the season? And he makes a lot more than Choi too.
2005-06-06 21:28:04
208.   Xeifrank
Alvarez went on the DL, who came up for him?
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:28:22
209.   Jon Weisman
Sam NYC -

Why shouldn't one back a player one thinks is good? How is he a bad player? Seriously? He gets on base, he hits for power, and he does it for under $400,000. He slumps, which makes him like just about every other player in baseball. And he gets the quickest hook of any Dodger position player. So why shouldn't people back him?

You preach faith in Tracy through thick and thin - a perfectly legitimate position to take. Why are you so surprised that Choi earns the same respect?

2005-06-06 21:28:27
210.   Fearing Blue
#195: Indeed. That's a decision at the margins, which I'm fine with Tracy going either way on.
2005-06-06 21:29:58
211.   Xeifrank
LA Angel highlights on FSN... here comes the Erstad collision play. My God!!!!!
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:30:02
212.   Icaros
Choi was traded for the Cuddliest Dodger Ever. Some people will not be able to like him no matter what he does.

There are many who find the image of LoDuca hitting for zero power in a Marlin uniform akin to watching one's former significant other go to the prom with someone else.

2005-06-06 21:30:38
213.   Fearing Blue
#209: Most of the time, I should just stop posting and wait for Jon to say what I was going to say, but better.
2005-06-06 21:31:14
214.   Jon Weisman
Okay, I just saw the Erstadrada collison and I have to say, maybe it was legal, but somehow, I think it's wrong. Erstad seemed to go right for Estrada's head. I feel that's beyond the pale, and I saw Dave Parker, the master of the vicious home plate hit.
2005-06-06 21:31:18
215.   Steve
LoDuca will be played at Hollywood Stars Night by All Hit/No Field Jon Lovitz.
2005-06-06 21:32:29
216.   Fearing Blue
#208: It was discussed earlier, but we brought up Franquelis Osoria from AAA.

Hey Xei, I posted a summary of one of the articles you were interested in on the Jim Tracy thread.

2005-06-06 21:32:55
217.   Vic
That looked extremely painful.
2005-06-06 21:35:09
218.   Xeifrank
Erstad would've been out had he not taken out the catcher. Yes, he purposely went after the catcher who was not yet blocking the plate but turning to tag Erstad out. Erstad just did what he had to do to be safe at home. It was an ugly and unfortunate play, and one hopes that Estrada is ok. Either way, I'd rather have Erstad on my team than the other team, no matter how he is misused as a firstbaseman.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:36:10
219.   Christina
214 - my feeling is that if it would be illegal in football, it's certainly beyond the pale in baseball.
2005-06-06 21:36:12
220.   champion of choi
Choi gets no love from Tracy because his scrap factor is low.

Maybe if he was under-sized and phyically challanged, he'd be playing more regularly.

Choi is an easy target because he's slumping so badly but the next HR he hits; I suspect that the bandwagon will fill up

2005-06-06 21:39:27
221.   Xeifrank
scrap factor? If JT published his managing handbook, his own version of Moneyball, I would suspect there would be a chapter related to the JT sabermetric of "scrap factor". What would the formula be?
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:41:08
222.   Christina
218 - I think Jon's point is that there are more important things in life than not being out at home plate. It's not worth paralyzing a guy for life over, for instance. You can deliver a nasty, bone-jarring, knockout hit without actually going for the head.

Again, if it's illegal in football, I find it beyond the pale in baseball. Football is all about hard-hitting contact, after all, none of those guys are wimps, but there are still some rules to protect the players. The days of beating up the QB on every single play are long gone.

2005-06-06 21:42:28
223.   mikethinksblue
it would have something to do with the area of uniform covered with dirt at the end of 5 innings played, plus the number of diving slides at first trying to beat a throw from the infield.
2005-06-06 21:43:28
224.   champion of choi
equal parts grit, determination, headiness and an overall lack of skill. very similar to jt, the ballplayer

i think he said once he like guys that remind him of himself

2005-06-06 21:44:25
225.   Icaros
Tracy seems to like players who are as physically ungifted as he was in his playing days.

Perhaps he's bitter for never having a manager who gave him the chance to exhibit his scrap factor.

Big, strong guys like Choi are the types who kept Trace from his dream of big-league success, and he's not going to let the same thing happen to Oscar Robles if he can help it.

That's my conspiracy theory for the evening.

2005-06-06 21:44:29
226.   Fearing Blue
The Dodgers really need to do something about Jackson. He just pitched horribly again tonight:

5.2 IP; 9 Hs; 8 Rs; 8 ERs; 4 BBs; 2 Ks; 3 HRs

My suggestion would be to either move him down to Jacksonville to find his groove or trade him, as he's certainly not close to ready to pitch in the majors.

2005-06-06 21:44:37
227.   champion of choi
Choi is the anti-tracy
2005-06-06 21:45:53
228.   mikethinksblue
Tracy's on the SCSR now, Google is up on his screen behind him. What do you think JT is Googling?
2005-06-06 21:47:45
229.   Xeifrank
FSN just interviewed JT in his office, JT had a laptop booted up in the background. Looked like he had his web browser open and the Dodger Thoughts blog on his screen. Looked like he was reading about his breakup with Jon. Hope he takes it well.
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 21:47:50
230.   Sam NYC

I know my position on Choi irks people, but look at the facts:

His batting average as a Dodger is under .240.

His OBP this year is now at .327.

He is averaging one home run every 23 at bats.

He hasn't drawn a walk since May 15.

He's gotten three at-bats or more in 12 of the last 16 games. He's getting a chance to play.

This has nothing to do with age either, because Werth established himself in sporadic playing time last year. And it's not about money because Saenz makes $650K and people have an aneurysm every time he's in instead of Choi. This even though Saenz gets on base more often and has more home runs in fewer at-bats.

The distinction between Choi and Tracy is one of results. I have reasons to back Tracy. Specific and articuable reasons. What reason is there to back Choi? What has he done to justify the faith?

2005-06-06 21:48:32
231.   Icaros
I wrote #225 before reading #224, though it was partially inspired by the same author's post at #220.

Champion of Choi, you've made my Works Cited list.

2005-06-06 21:52:26
232.   overkill94
Re: 226

I really think they need to send him back down to Jacksonville. It can't help his confidence having to pitch in all those hitters parks. It's not like he'll be too old for the league either, isn't he still only 21?

2005-06-06 21:52:34
233.   champion of choi
230-Kent's avg. was .255 a few days ago. Further, he hasn't been drawing alot of walks, either. You are employing circular logic, sweet sammy.
2005-06-06 21:53:33
234.   Xeifrank
minorleagueballcom has their NL West mock draft up finally. For the Dodgers have all of their picks being high school players. Didn't they read Moneyball? Don't they know that Paul DePodesta, MR never draft high school players is our GM?

Here is what they have:
Los Angeles Dodgers
1S---40---Tyler Herron, RHP, Wellington, FL HS
2---51---Vance Worley, RHP, McClatchy HS, Sacramento CA
2---74---Jeff Lyman, RHP, Monte Visa HS, Alamo CA
3---106---Scott Van Slyke, OF, St. Louis Missouri HS
4---136---Ryan DeLaughter, OF, Corinth Texas HS
5---166---David DiNatale, OF, Stoneman Douglas HS, Parkland FL

2005-06-06 21:57:40
235.   Icaros
I love the last name DeLaughter. Hope he's a starter in 5 years.

And, I have to know, is Scott Van Slyke the son of Andy? He did start his career in St. Louis.

2005-06-06 21:57:49
236.   Sam NYC

I'm sorry, but I don't think you know what circular logic is. Kent had nothing to do with what I was saying.
The argument for Choi was that he hits for power and gets on base. The numbers show otherwise. The argument is that he needs more at-bats, but he's getting at-bats. The argument is that he needs to play more regularly, but he has started 12 of the last sixteen games. Please let me know how I am using circular logic.

2005-06-06 21:58:32
237.   Steve
234 -- Logan what'shisname, the Scouting Director, is a high school guy. There was something I read about this somewhere or other. That's helpful, I'm sure. I like Moneyball, but I don't really care about that stuff. Draft good players. Skip bad players. No more Billy Ashleys.

230 -- I think you misunderstand. Those of us who worship at the altar of Choi (though like any good ecumenical, I invited Saenzian teachings into my worship) practice nothing but faith. Faith is the belief in things one cannot see. Sometimes it's blind. Combine it with hope, and you have a deadly mixture.

2005-06-06 22:00:44
238.   Fearing Blue
#234: DePodesta has intelligently deferred to Logan White in the draft. Last year they drafted a larger number of college players, but still primarily high school players. Baseball Prospectus did a series of articles recently showing that high school players are rapidly approaching college players in value. Additionally, I expect there to be more room to take advantage of market inneficiencies amongst high school players, as evaluation methods for college players are fairly universally accepted.
2005-06-06 22:01:27
239.   Jon Weisman
"Werth established himself in sporadic playing time last year."

Choi's 2004 OPS was the same as Werth's: .819 vs. .824.

Choi has had positive results wherever he has played. His success at this stage of his career, his first 3 seasons plus two months, is comparable with Tracy's first three seasons plus two months. Good years with slumps, with still more to shoot for. The main difference is that Tracy didn't get injured or traded.

2005-06-06 22:02:03
240.   champion of choi
Sammy in D.C.

It's late on the East Coast. Gauging from the vague hostility in your posts today, I assume you've had a rough one. You're lashing out and projecting your own insecurities onto Choi.

Take a breath and call it a day, bro.

2005-06-06 22:05:34
241.   Bob Timmermann
Scott Van Slyke is Andy's son. He has another son who is supposed to be a high pick also I believe.
2005-06-06 22:07:05
242.   Jon Weisman
I don't think anyone's been hostile today, unless I missed something.
2005-06-06 22:10:31
243.   Xeifrank
Jeff Kent just said he doesn't like interleague play andthat he is an old schoold guy. Is that the school of motor cycle wheelies?
vr, Xei
2005-06-06 22:15:31
244.   Sam NYC

Just admit you don't know what circular logic is. ;) Then I'll go to bed.

2005-06-06 22:17:27
245.   Fearing Blue
#236: I don't think any of the statistics you posted are really inconsistent with our evaluation of Choi. Out of the 21 1Bs in the NL with 100 PAs or more, I'll list Choi's rank for each, along with players of note he is ahed of:

His batting average as a Dodger is under .240 (ranked 16th, ahead of LaRoche, Thome, and Mientkiewicz)

His OBP this year is now at .327 (ranked 15th, ahead of LaRoche, Nevin, Mientkiewicz, and Tracy)

His Slugging this is year is at .417 (ranked 14th, ahead of Helton, Bagwell, Snow, Mientkiewicz, and Thome)

He is averaging one home run every 23 at bats (ranked 13th, ahead of Overbay, Mientkiewicz, Nevin, Johnson, Tracy, Bagwell, Helton, Thome, Snow, and Casey)

His stats this year are essentially equivalent to Adam LaRoche, who is only 6 months younger, and gets a lot more props:

LaRoche (25): .242/.313/.446
LaRoche (career): .266/.327/.470
Choi (26): .245/.327/.417
Choi (career): .237/.352/.428

I just don't see what's not to like about a young player who's contributing a positive VORP and under team control for another 3 years.

2005-06-06 22:18:26
246.   Sam NYC

How often do you think Choi should play?

And if he goes into a prolongued nasty slump, should he be pulled back?

I'm seriously asking, no rhetoric here.

2005-06-06 22:19:02
247.   the OZ
240 - You're addressing the Wrong Sam. NYC v DC.

RE: HS and College draftees:

I read Jany Jazayerli's recent pieces on the draft too and found them intersting, but it got me thinking that the relative value of HS and college picks is not the same for each team.

Let's assume that the values of college players are relatively well-known because of their larger performance record against superior competition. Thus, a pro team's scouting dept can make an evaluation based on a large amount of data and select which players they want the scouts to take a closer look at.

Let's also assume that ML-quality HS players are more difficult to identify because they play fewer games against inferior talent and the larger database of performance history isn't available. In these cases, scouting plays a much larger role in picking who the top players are, especially beyond the first or second round of the draft.

Thusly, if a pro team felt it has generally better scouts than the other teams, it might be able to glean a competitive advantage by selecting the best HS prospoects from an otherwise unremarkable pool of similar players. A team without much faith in its scouts might want to stick more to college players.

Much has been made about the relative value of HS and college players recently, but all the data I've seen has been broken down into large decade-wide aggregate chunks. It would interest me to see how successful different teams are at identifying and developing HS talent above a baseline.

2005-06-06 22:23:31
248.   Fearing Blue
#247: Exactly. Logan White and his scouting organization have a proven capability to select high-quality high school picks throughout the draft. I think this gives the Dodgers a competitive advantage, especially in later rounds.
2005-06-06 22:27:56
249.   Landonkk
Wow.. somebody feels better. Great content the past few days, Jon. Congrats.

RE: Erstad. Estrada blocking the plate as an excuse is hogwash. There was more than enough room for Erstad to do a sweep slide. He made up his mind rounding third that he would go in hard. I know it is a legal play, but I can't believe that he is getting a free pass on this. Imagine if our boy Milton did it.

RE: Edwin. If we traded him right now wouldn't we be selling pretty low? I can't imagine that his poor performance for the past year would simply be overlooked, even though he is still a high prospect. Send him to Jax. And on that note, why the heck isn't Laroche in Jax yet?

2005-06-06 22:28:24
250.   Sam NYC
Fearing Blue,

First, Bagwell and Thome have been hurt so I don't think it's right to include them. But anyway, it seems like you're saying that it's good that the Dodgers have the 13th best first baseman in the league. It also seems that you're saying that Mientkiewicz stinks. Man, what lousy numbers!

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-06-06 22:35:20
251.   Jon Weisman
246 -

Well, there's no denying that Saenz has been hot. I guess I'm someone who is skeptical that it will last, but I guess you can ride that horse for a while, especially against lefties. But basically, I don't think it will be long before Saenz comes back to earth, to his solid but unspectacular 2004 level, and Choi should then get the bulk of those at-bats.

2005-06-06 22:38:04
252.   Sam NYC

So if you're not opposed to the Choi/Saenz platoon, how is Choi not getting enough at-bats? Again, asking.

2005-06-06 22:38:37
253.   Fearing Blue
#246: My opinion is that Choi should start every game against RHP with Perez at 3B and Saenz on the bench to pinch-hit late. Over his career, Saenz has shown a marked inability to hit right-handers, and the 47 ABs this season are not enough to contradict his career numbers. Additionally, when we spell Izturis or Kent, we should play Saenz at 3B and Perez at SS or 2B and Choi at 1B.

All professionals go through prolonged slumps. For a prime example take a look at Kent's numbers in May (.200/.241/.330 in 100 ABs, 39 less than Choi has had all season). Choi has a very long track record of success in the majors (.236/.351/.426 in 734 ABs) and in the minors. If Choi were to OPS below .700 for 200 ABs or so, I would be concerned. But if he continues to produce at or above his current season averages, I'm happy.

2005-06-06 22:45:59
254.   Fearing Blue
#250: Indeed. Mientkiewicz is lousy. My guess it that Choi is currently around the 10th best offensive 1B in the NL, but his stats are deflated some, because he's currently in a slump. By the end of the season, I expect him to put up better numbers than Chad Tracy, Adam LaRoche, J.T. Snow, Doug Mientkiewicz, Mike Lamb (new starter for the Astros), and possibly Phil Nevin.
2005-06-06 22:48:38
255.   Fearing Blue
#252: There have been 3 or 4 games where Tracy has found one reason or another to bench Choi against RHPs. Additionally, Tracy has a very quick hook with Choi against left-handed relievers fairly early in the game. Whereas Saenz has half his ABs against RHPs, Choi only has 11 ABs all season against LHPs.
2005-06-06 22:52:53
256.   Sam NYC
253 -- The first paragraph, isn't that essentially what they've been doing?

The second paragraph, that's where you lose me. How are those numbers a very long track record of success?

255 -- if a player is hot, why sit hit him in favor of one who is slumping?

2005-06-06 22:58:19
257.   jasonungar05
Jennie Finch - USA Softball is gonna be there?

2005-06-06 23:00:44
258.   jasonungar05
Choi's OPS is at least 100 points higher than than Beltre or Green. If not 100 points higher, then at least 31 Million dollars cheaper in 2005
2005-06-06 23:09:38
259.   molokai
Okay, that was better. Have my own two game winning streak going so I'm going to stay with the basic Dodger hat. That was a very fast game, gave us time to hit the creamery and still get the girls home to their anxious parents by 10:30. If anyone was at the game and in the Lodge section I want to apologize if the girls punctured any ear drums.

E Jackson can't be that bad. He must be injured but won't admit it.

Always excited about the draft but we have no 1st round pick this year and because Seattle was so bad we don't even get their plum pick but a damn supplemental. I love what Logan White has done but before we annoit him into Dodger sainthood, some of his picks have to actually pan out. Being a good minor league prospect doesn't mean squat until something happens at the big league level.

I like Choi but I see no reason to bench our hottest hitter(before Kent went off) until he cools off. He's been hitting right and left handed pitching during this hot stretch. Choi will get plenty of chances after Saenz cools off.

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