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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

If You Have a Guerrero, Throw It to the Sky
2005-06-28 16:11
by Jon Weisman

Tonight's Game

* * *

Tonight (correction: Wednesday) brings the 15th anniversary of Fernando Valenzuela's no-hitter, which I was fortunate enough to attend and am thrilled to relive in my mind again.

The final out of that game was made by ex-Valenzuela teammate Pedro Guerrero, almost exactly five years after Guerrero's most incredible feat.

Before it was too late, I wanted to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Guerrero's extraordinary 15-homer June, which at the time was a record for the month.

Guerrero homered on the first day of June and never went more than four games without a homer for the remainder of the month. He had four homers after nine days, then hit five in the next four days. Soon after, he hit five in a seven-game stretch to bring him to 14 for June.

He waited until his final at-bat of the month to set the record. It was a day game against Atlanta. With the Dodgers trailing the Braves, 3-2, Guerrero launched a game-winning two-run blast to win the game and achieve, well, not immortality, but delayed mortality.

Guerrero followed up this feat the next month by reaching base 14 consecutive times:

July 23: double, double in final two at-bats
July 24: walk, single, walk, walk
July 25: walk, homer, single, hit by pitch
July 26: double, homer, walk, walk

The streak ended July 27 with a sacrifice fly in his first at-bat.

The guy was just an awesome hitter. Oh, and Fernando was an awesome pitcher.

Comments (569)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-06-28 16:22:05
1.   bigcpa
Does Choi get the start tonight against arch enemy Brian "Arm Angles" Lawrence?
2005-06-28 16:23:21
2.   Fearing Blue
#1: Haha.. we shall see. Saenz is supposedly only available for PH-duty, so that increases the odds. Of course, Tracy may still pull out the strange Phillips to 1B alignment.
2005-06-28 16:33:02
3.   Xeifrank
Over/Under on Dessens is 6 IPs. Please feel free to make your virtual bets. Let's see if the bottom of the rotation can make it two "overs" in a row.
vr, Xei
2005-06-28 16:33:59
4.   gvette
Actually,Pedro Guerrero's "most incredible feat" was beating a cocaine trafficking rap after he retired. How was he supposed to know that his partners were in fact, talking about transporting drugs?

Despite that, he was one of the greatest Dodger hitters, although seemingly highly disinterested in fielding.

2005-06-28 16:35:21
5.   alex 7
just read this on espn's insider, not sure if it's been posted before:

As for firing manager Jim Tracy, DePodesta isn't inclined. He has said repeatedly over the last several weeks that Tracy is doing as good a job as can be expected given the rash of injuries and roster stocked with unproven players. "This stretch has been frustrating for the team and for the fans, largely because we've been in most of the games we've lost during this streak," said DePodesta. "We have played well and been right there."

the article also mentioned the Dodgers scouting Joe Kennedy of the Rockies.

2005-06-28 16:38:02
6.   Fearing Blue
#1: On the Beltre vs. Glaus question in the previous thread, I just realized I never responded. Beltre is one of the best defensive third baseman statistically so far this year and Glaus is one of the worst. Beltre's fielding rate of 111 so far is better than his rate of 107 last year (100 being average). BP estimates that he's saved 8 runs above average. Glaus on the other hand is a butcher at third base. His fielding rate is at 87 and he has allowed 8 runs more than average. The 16 run defensive differential makes up for a lot of offense.

Also, park factors narrow the OPS differential. Beltre's equivalent OPS is .709, while Glaus' equivalent OPS is .854.

So, park factors make up about .050 of the original difference (.887 vs. .685), and the stark contrast in defense makes up for the rest.

2005-06-28 16:39:23
7.   Fearing Blue
Under. Dessens has only gone 6 innings once in his 4 starts.
2005-06-28 16:52:11
8.   bigcpa
Re: #6
Thanks for looking into it. I love BP but I have no idea how to translate their "translated stats." The WARP numbers imply equal weight to Batting Runs and Fielding Runs. I thought we're all taught in sabr-school that hitting value outweighs fielding value 70/30.

Park Adjusted Win Shares:
Glaus 7.5 bat, 1.4 field = 8.9
Beltre 3.7 bat, 2.0 field= 5.7

This seems to make more sense to me given the EQA and OPS spread.

2005-06-28 16:52:51
9.   Howard Fox
He will hit 6 innings exactly. Then Tracy will let him bat in the bottom of the 6th, and put in a reliever in the 7th.
2005-06-28 16:54:11
10.   Fearing Blue
#8: Win Shares does the 70/30 split, but I'm pretty sure BP treats a run as a run. Where did you pick up the current Win Shares from?
2005-06-28 16:54:41
11.   bigcpa
I should note that dividing those WS by 3 gets you right back to the WARP numbers more or less... 3.0 to 1.9. It's still hard to believe that Glaus is only worth 1 more win than Beltre in 70 games this year.
2005-06-28 16:55:26
12.   bigcpa
2005-06-28 16:56:18
13.   Jim Hitchcock
Awwww shoot. Under. I feel disloyal.
2005-06-28 16:59:50
14.   Adam M
Under - I can't see him getting out of the 6th. Plus, they'll probably want to go easy on him.
2005-06-28 17:05:21
15.   bigcpa
Apparently Giles and Klesko are not flustered by Dessens' arm angles:

Giles 17-36, 4 HR
Klesko 6-15, 3 HR

2005-06-28 17:07:24
16.   Steve
Here's the problem:

Part of me wants to go over, just so when Dessens throws eight scoreless, I can hold Jim's sudden disloyalty over him for months.

Part of me wants to go under, because I have proven a very contrary indicator of the Over/Under game, and under would be a disaster tonight.

I'm going to go for Double zero. Right on six innings.

2005-06-28 17:08:07
17.   Howard Fox
15-they would be if Tracy was their manager
2005-06-28 17:09:38
18.   Howard Fox
16-Steve and I agree on the over/under? where's the knife....
2005-06-28 17:13:03
19.   Steve
Well, I'm gambling that Drew doesn't do anything like look at Dessens cross-eyed during the first three innings tonight. If he does that, Dessens will cower in the fetal position, and all hell will break loose.
2005-06-28 17:15:41
20.   Nagman
#4, Somebody who remembers the details should remind us of the defense used by Guerrero's own attorney in defending him (assuming it was a true story).
2005-06-28 17:20:00
21.   Suffering Bruin
20 - It's a true story. Guerrero's lawyer argued that because of his markedly low IQ, Pedro couldn't have understood what was going on. There are better details readily available via Google.

After his sensational trial, OJ Simpson moved to Florida. He once made a 911 call to police. He wanted them to pick up his girlfriend because she had been out all night doing cocaine with Pedro Guerrero. The call was, of course, recorded. Jim Rome played it on his radio show for many a moon.

2005-06-28 17:21:46
22.   Steve

That is priceless, priceless stuff.

2005-06-28 17:21:51
23.   Suffering Bruin
Many of you are doubtless aware that Bill James called Pedro and Jack Clark the very best hitters of the 1980's. IIRC, James wrote that if Guerrero played in Fenway Park, he would've won the triple crown.
2005-06-28 17:30:59
24.   DougS
SB, I remember when Bill James wrote that "Pedro Guerrero is one of the best hitters God has made in a long time."

One of my favorite Pedro moments is the home run he hit into the upper deck at Three Rivers, swinging only with his arms because he had a bad back that night.

2005-06-28 17:32:32
25.   Suffering Bruin
The Lakers just took Andrew Bynum in the NBA Draft. He's 7-0, 300 pounds... and all of seventeen years old. He has not hired an agent.
2005-06-28 17:45:33
26.   Humma Kavula
I'll take the over. The Dodgers are, so far this season, 4-0 when I attend, and I'll be in my seat by game time.

Let's go Dodgers! Let's make it 5-0!

2005-06-28 17:52:15
27.   Adam M
The Clippers, ever the showoffs, just drafted a 17 year old Russian. Sayeth ESPN: "Everyone believes the Clippers have promised him at 12. It makes some sense because Korolev has to remind head coach Mike Dunleavy of his son. Still, he could be several years away from contributing. If the Clips don't grab him, though, he could free fall." There isn't a positive thing in any of those 4 sentences. We better grab him now, because otherwise, we might have to grab him later.
2005-06-28 17:54:35
28.   dzzrtRatt
Sterling makes out by paying Korlev in rubles.
2005-06-28 17:54:40
29.   Adam M
Then again, he could be the Orlando pick - a guy named Fran.

Quote of the night on him (ESPN again):

"SIMILARITIES: Andris Biedrins with more offense and experience"

Really? Not "Uwe Blabb with better court vision"?

2005-06-28 17:55:03
30.   dzzrtRatt
I mean Korolev
2005-06-28 17:56:03
31.   dzzrtRatt
Anyway, I loathe the NBA. I hope this thread abandons Laker/Clipper talk forthwith. The NBA is my nightmare vision of baseball's future.
2005-06-28 17:57:09
32.   Adam M
A 17-year old Russian. Sterling could have just dragged a $100 down Santa Monica Boulevard.
2005-06-28 17:59:53
33.   Steve
While you all fret about the draft, the Heavens have opened, and his Choiness has spoken:

2005-06-28 18:00:18
34.   Dodgerkid
I don't know about Russian, but female, black and transvestite yes.
2005-06-28 18:00:32
35.   Dodgerkid
whoops meant male
2005-06-28 18:05:02
36.   Adam M
So Rodman's moved up from Newport? Seriously, I meant just the stretch between Fairfax and La Brea.

The stretch after La Brea, are 300,000% correct. LA mag did a piece with an LAPD vice cop. He said the only thing that shocked him in X years on the job is how much more business transexual hookers get than he expected. Eddie Murphy, you are not alone.

2005-06-28 18:07:31
37.   Jim Hitchcock
16 - Yea, Steve, though I walk through the valley of the Heavily Conflicted...

Actually, I was going to go with Howard, but I was afraid that the part about Dessens batting for himself before being yanked was actually, uh, meant as irony.

2005-06-28 18:08:32
38.   Jim Hitchcock
36 - No, he still has Dave Stewart...
2005-06-28 18:09:37
39.   Dodgerkid
The stretch between La Brea and Fairfax seems to be mostly white and male. The only place I know to find female prostitutes is downtown. I've lived in these areas, I have not partaken.
2005-06-28 18:31:04
40.   Fearing Blue
Suns are now up 7 - 3 in the 4th inning on a 2-run double off the wall by Joel Guzman to score Martin and LaRoche. Justin Orenduff is not pitching well in his second start in AA, allowing 3 ER in 3 innings.
2005-06-28 18:31:08
41.   deburns
My favorite re Pedro was when he was asked "what are you thinking about when you are out at 3B." He said: "I hope they don't hit it to me." He was then asked: "other than that, what are you thinking?" He said: "I hope they don't hit it to Sax." (These are not quotes, just the gist, despite the quotation marks). He was one of the guys that justified the line: what does Michael Jackson and the Dodger infield have in common? Answer: they both wear a glove for no particular reason.
2005-06-28 18:31:26
42.   natepurcell
mean while in AA, the jax suns offense has exploded again, scoring 7 runs so far by the 4th inning.

guzman misses a homerun by 4 feet, hitting off the high wall in right field.

2005-06-28 18:32:54
43.   natepurcell
damn, fearing blue beat me to it.
2005-06-28 18:41:25
44.   kegtron
I know this has been mentioned before but I just wanted to reiterate how bad the padres announcers are. After the Pads were up 4-0 last night Vasgersian was going nuts yelling out the top of his lungs, talking smack about DJ Houlton, bashing the Dodgers for "printing playoff tickets after their hot start". After the Dodgers came back to take lead he sounded as if he just found out his dog died. He was so quiet and subdued, almost tolerable to listen to.

Here's hoping for another Dodger victory, the TV in this room sucks and I have to rely on the audio.

2005-06-28 18:47:17
45.   Vishal
41. that was hilarious. i think that era in sports is over, though. no more fun(even if well-deserved) jibes at teammates. now they would get mad, take it to the media... it would disrupt the clubhouse... it feels like people are just surlier now.
2005-06-28 18:47:50
46.   natepurcell
holy snikes, i think orenduff has 11Ks after 5IP
2005-06-28 18:49:15
47.   heato
Bochy goes R-L-L-L-L-L-R-R-R again. He's just asking for Wunsch to come in again.
2005-06-28 18:49:41
48.   heato
Dodger suprise here
2005-06-28 18:54:45
49.   Fern
I would love to see Kuo come up from AA real soon before he blows out his elbow again. It'd be nice to have a lefthanded flame-thrower come out of the bullpen along with Wunsch
2005-06-28 19:05:43
50.   Marty
I'll take the over cuz I'm an optimist. Dessens will lead by example.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-06-28 19:06:30
51.   Marty
I also predict our beloved Choi will overcome the sinister arm angles tonight.
2005-06-28 19:10:17
52.   natepurcell
last 4 games, guzman has had 11 hits.

loney with a 3 hit night tonight.

laroche is 0-3 with a bb and k. the balls he put in play were both hit hard. oh well.

2005-06-28 19:20:26
53.   Vishal
well, if you can't buy a hit, taking one off the butt ain't so bad.
2005-06-28 19:23:18
54.   Jim Hitchcock
Oh man. Who's this doing the stadium anouncing tonight?
2005-06-28 19:24:09
55.   Vishal
"some swelling in the knee after having played last night, but he's in the lineup"

-vinny talking about j.d. drew, gamer.

2005-06-28 19:25:34
56.   Vishal
izturis was actually out anyway.
2005-06-28 19:26:07
57.   Steve
I thank you, blue, and Jim Tracy thanks you.
2005-06-28 19:27:47
58.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Anyone else have DirecTV MLB Extra Innings and getting nothing more than a blank screen? Good thing I have Gameday Audio.


2005-06-28 19:31:09
59.   untitled instrumental demo
"Anyone else have DirecTV MLB Extra Innings and getting nothing more than a blank screen? Good thing I have Gameday Audio." too. And I'm in the bay area...never seen this before. on with cust service rightnow

2005-06-28 19:32:17
60.   untitled instrumental demo
it's not only the only game not coming in, it's the only channel not coming in. weird.
2005-06-28 19:32:18
61.   Fearing Blue
#46: Wow. He really settled down. His last 2 innings I think he gave up 1 H, 0 R, with 5 Ks. Yikes!
2005-06-28 19:32:23
62.   Fern
Guzman just hit a towering HR to left. 4-4 tonight
2005-06-28 19:33:41
63.   Fern
Loney just missed an opposite field homerun off the top of the wall.
2005-06-28 19:33:45
64.   Fearing Blue
#62: What's the score now? They're not updating the boxscore often on
2005-06-28 19:35:52
65.   untitled instrumental demo
wayne, the game is on now...yours should be fixed too, per the csr i talked to...
2005-06-28 19:36:15
66.   Jim Hitchcock
Has anyone with DirecTV got a `security card expired' message lately?
2005-06-28 19:36:58
67.   natepurcell
jax suns super prospect team leads all the southern league in basically every offensive catagorey. thats amazing.
2005-06-28 19:37:36
68.   Adam M
Jim Tracy is a genius
2005-06-28 19:40:51
69.   untitled instrumental demo
Jim, haven't seen that here...
2005-06-28 19:41:15
70.   Vishal
guess those arm angles aren't so confusing after all, eh?
2005-06-28 19:41:21
71.   Fearing Blue
Arm angles, eh?
2005-06-28 19:41:38
72.   bokonon42
Choi bless Choi. A double, too; he's been doubles light this year.
2005-06-28 19:42:22
73.   Adam M
Bust out the eel, Mama Choi!
2005-06-28 19:42:42
74.   Adam M
2005-06-28 19:42:50
75.   Jim Hitchcock
Why oh why are they playing `All Right Now' after a DP?
2005-06-28 19:44:09
76.   Fern
At least in Jacksonville the score is 11-4. The suns announcers are pretty awe-struck by the team. Talking about how frequently the suns score in double digits in spite of playing in a pitcher's league.
2005-06-28 19:46:23
77.   Suffering Bruin
75 - it is arguably a blues song. :)

I'm late to the party here but I am glad to see that Choi's time on the bench during Lawrence's last start led to solving the ticklish problem of arm angles. Jim Tracy, all is forgiven.

2005-06-28 19:47:36
78.   Fearing Blue
#67: Here are the stats for the Suns regular position players. James Loney is the only regular with an OPS below .800. Isn't the Southern League a pitcher's league?

Andy LaRoche (3B): 46 AB; 5 HR; 11 K; 5 BB; 0.370 / 0.431 / 0.804 (1.235)

Tydus Meadows (OF): 213 AB; 10 HR; 62 K; 49 BB; 0.291 / 0.424 / 0.526 (0.950)

Jon Weber (OF): 238 AB; 9 HR; 45 K; 21 BB; 0.319 / 0.378 / 0.521 (0.899)

Russell Martin (C): 232 AB; 5 HR; 35 K; 48 BB; 0.315 / 0.445 / 0.427 (0.872)

Joel Guzman (SS): 269 AB; 11 HR; 83 K; 32 BB; 0.286 / 0.357 / 0.498 (0.855)

Todd Donovan (OF): 304 AB; 8 HR; 60 K; 31 BB; 0.286 / 0.362 / 0.447 (0.809)

Delwyn Young (2B): 288 AB; 11 HR; 66 K; 22 BB; 0.295 / 0.347 / 0.458 (0.805)

James Loney (1B): 276 AB; 7 HR; 58 K; 38 BB; 0.264 / 0.354 / 0.388 (0.742)

2005-06-28 19:49:21
79.   untitled instrumental demo
Actually, Vin, I live in Concord...the locals pronounce it Concurd...not Concorde.
2005-06-28 19:49:43
80.   Jim Hitchcock
Thanks,'s appeared twicw briefly.
2005-06-28 19:49:46
81.   Fearing Blue
#76: Thanks for answering my question about the pitcher's league before I asked it :). It is pretty incredible, especially considering that they were leading before they added LaRoche to the middle of their order. And they have pretty damn good pitching to go along with it. It's a very fun team. I wonder if the Dodgers will break it up to send some people to Las Vegas?
2005-06-28 19:53:25
82.   Jim Hitchcock
Giles is sure a good hitter. Reminds me of a L/H Bagwell.
2005-06-28 19:54:28
83.   joekings
I think Weaver has been getting in Dessens head.
2005-06-28 19:54:35
84.   Suffering Bruin
22 doubles for Giles already. Wow.
2005-06-28 19:55:11
85.   Suffering Bruin
So I guess that error hurt a little bit...
2005-06-28 19:56:52
86.   ddger
Kent has been carrying the team all year but his defense which was surprisingly good early in the year is starting to go downhill lately. I guess we will have to just accept his defense because of his bat.
2005-06-28 19:57:30
87.   Adam M
1-2 count. Ouch.
2005-06-28 19:57:37
88.   ddger
We're giving up lot of unearned runs this year. I wonder how we compare to last year at this time.
2005-06-28 19:58:55
89.   Fearing Blue
#67: The Jacksonville team leads in the following categories: AB, R, H, HR, RBI, BB, AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS. The only categories they are not leading in are 2B, 3B, & SB. They are powerful, but not fast.

The pitchers are second in Ks, but I'd be willing to bet they take the lead by the end of the season after adding Edwin Jackson, Justin Orenduff, Carlos Alvarez, and Hong-Chih Kuo to the staff. So far, they've struck out 15 batters in tonight's game with 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th.

2005-06-28 20:02:27
90.   Vishal
haha, nice try antonio.
2005-06-28 20:06:31
91.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 65

Yep, my DirecTV feed is also back. A delayed thanks (was away from the computer a bit).

Man, our luck stinks today. The DP line-out and now Greene robs Kent of an RBI.


2005-06-28 20:07:19
92.   ddger
Perez seems to make at least one bonehead play a game. Even though he seems like a good hitter, I think his baseball IQ is not very high.
2005-06-28 20:09:24
93.   ddger
How come we have so much trouble scoring against Lawrence. He doesn't pitch that well against other teams. Maybe it's that ARM ANGLE the Tracy mentions.
2005-06-28 20:11:31
94.   Steve
"Antonio, I...Am...Your Father."


2005-06-28 20:11:50
95.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 93

Well, in this game, we're just having some bad luck. I just hope we keep on hitting the ball hard. If so, eventually the luck will turn our way.


2005-06-28 20:12:52
96.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
BTW, anyone know exactly why Billingsley is pitching out of relief now? They aren't actually thinking of changing him to a reliever, are they?


2005-06-28 20:14:12
97.   Fearing Blue
The Suns score 2 more in the 9th to extend their lead to 13 - 6. Loney missed out on a 5-hit game by grounding out in the 9th to drive in a run.
2005-06-28 20:14:19
98.   Vishal
96. i think i read that ALL the dodger pitching prospects are going to be cycled through the bullpen for a period of time.
2005-06-28 20:15:20
99.   Fearing Blue
#96: Billingsley is moving back into the rotation the next time through. They were just trying to give his arm a little rest and give him a taste of the bullpen. The permanent bullpen residents seem to be Broxton, Alvarez, and Kuo.
2005-06-28 20:16:34
100.   Steve
93 -- or it could just be that Lawrence has been damn lucky so far.

Which is true.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-06-28 20:17:02
101.   bokonon42
Has Loney ever played anywhere but 1B? Isn't the CW on him that he's unlikely to aquire typical 1B power? Is he an Olmedo in the making?
2005-06-28 20:19:20
102.   Steve
101 -- Well, he's no Choi, if that's what you're getting at.
2005-06-28 20:20:02
103.   Sam DC
So, the Angels and Rangers each score 1 run in the first inning -- then nothing until the Angels score 4 in the top of the eleventh.
2005-06-28 20:20:16
104.   Fearing Blue
#101: The conventional wisdom is that he has a sweet left-handed swing with gap power, but may not develop traditional homerun pop for 1B. On the other hand, he's a tremendous defensive 1B, and has made two terrific plays tonight. He should hit enough to hold down a spot in the majors, especially if he has LaRoche and Guzman in the infield.
2005-06-28 20:24:22
105.   Vishal
man, i hate the angels.
2005-06-28 20:26:59
106.   Steve
Texas's entire staff is DFA Bait. Hershiser is some sort of genius to have gotten them this far.
2005-06-28 20:28:32
107.   bokonon42
104- Just found his stats. What happened last year, and the year before? He tore up Great Falls but his stats fell two years in a row. Was he hurt?
2005-06-28 20:29:53
108.   bokonon42
102- I am the Lord thy Choi, thou shalt have no other Chois before me. . .
2005-06-28 20:31:29
109.   Steve
Did I just say something nice about somebody? Dang it.
2005-06-28 20:34:48
110.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Thanks for the clarification on Billingsley's brief stint in the pen.

Re: 107

Loney has been plagued by injuries. In his first full year, I think he was hit on the wrist, which totally put him out of sorts. And last year after that great spring I think he suffered a fracture in his finger that later became infected, and which also messed up his season.

It's nice to see him heat up. Loney's numbers have never matched what the scouts see in him, so you gotta wonder, but the same could be said of LaRoche before this season.


2005-06-28 20:35:16
111.   bokonon42
Sure would be nice to have Derek Thompson in the pen.
2005-06-28 20:37:52
112.   bokonon42
Nice play for Darth.
2005-06-28 20:40:43
113.   Steve
Did anyone here ever see the show Choi, Erickson, and Bob?
2005-06-28 20:41:20
114.   bokonon42
110, 104- Thanks for the Loney information. I've heard his name, bandied around, but never pieced together the story. My allegiance to Our Loving Savior, aside, always good to know somebody's on the way up.
2005-06-28 20:41:27
115.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 104

He should hit enough to hold down a spot in the majors, especially if he has LaRoche and Guzman in the infield.

The question now is whether or not Guzman will be in the IF. If LaRoche continues this pace, he'll be the MLB 3B before Guzman even gets called up. And if we're going to move Guzman to RF as Baseball America predicts, I would think we should make that decision by the beginning of next season.

I know Guzman's supposed to be too tall to be a SS, and I do worry about how fielding all those ground balls will affect his back, but maybe we should just leave him at SS? As Izzy gets more expensive, his value drops. He's a quality SS, but his defense seems to be regressing a bit this year, and his bat is only good enough to hold its own. But man, if Guzman ends up the power bat we hope he is, getting that kind of production from him and LaRoche would be something to see.


2005-06-28 20:43:17
116.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I think I was the only man on earth who thought Grabowski would actually be productive with the bat when we recalled him from AAA. Oh well....

At least he worked a BB this AB.


2005-06-28 20:44:41
117.   Jerry
Phil Garner just pulled a Tracy.
2005-06-28 20:46:40
118.   joekings
i remember when izzy didn't use to hit into double plays.
2005-06-28 20:47:10
119.   natepurcell
can izzy suck any worse?
2005-06-28 20:48:10
120.   Steve
Hi Jerry! Indeed he did. I've decided Phil Garner is allergic to winning.
2005-06-28 20:48:14
121.   Fearing Blue
#115: Guzman to RF makes sense if we don't resign Bradley. If we do resign Bradley, I think it would be worth it to see if Guzman can stick at SS. Izturis would have tremendous trade value, and as you said, the production from LaRoche and Guzman would make up for a lot. Even if Guzman is not in the infield, Loney could be alright at 1B. If the Dodgers are getting middle-of-the-order production from Drew, LaRoche, Guzman, and possibly even Young, they won't need the traditional 1B production from Loney.
2005-06-28 20:48:37
122.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 118

I wonder when Tracy will finally bat A. Perez lead-off. Having Izzy lead-off is a royal pain.


2005-06-28 20:49:03
123.   ddger
As long as Izzy is batting leadoff while trying to get out his terrible slump, we will have trouble scoring runs. Maybe Perez leading off and Izzy batting second might be better. At least Izzy can bunt Perez if he gets on base.
2005-06-28 20:49:59
124.   Jerry
120 - I wasn't watching it, but on it looked like the most obvious situation in the world to use Lidge. And in Colorado.
2005-06-28 20:50:41
125.   Fearing Blue
#122: Tough to say. Tracy believes batting earlier in the lineup helps a hitter, so he likely believes Izturis has the best chance to break out of his slump where he is.
2005-06-28 20:52:37
126.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 123

Izzy really is a much better 2-hole hitter. Good bat control, doesn't K much if I remember correctly, and good speed. In retrospect, and I was on the Izzy bandwagon for a while too before this slump, it was too much to expect him to ever acquire the eye necessary to raise his OBP to be a true lead-off man.


2005-06-28 20:53:16
127.   chumsferd
Re: 123
besides, Tracy doesn't believe in moving people around in the lineup.
2005-06-28 20:53:29
128.   ddger
125. I think Izzy had enough time to work out of his slump while leading 1st. That's why it's so hard to understand lot of Tracy's moves. He is so stubborn and makes changes too late instead of thinking ahead.
2005-06-28 20:54:03
129.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 125

Well, I guess I was expressing more what I thought Tracy should do, than his actual behavior patterns. You're right that he does like to give younger hitters the 2-hole--I have a grim recollection of Repko constantly being our automatic out there. Ughhhhh...


2005-06-28 20:54:29
130.   Steve
8! 8! 8! 8! He's sub-Phillipsian
2005-06-28 20:55:55
131.   ddger
Another comeback tonight against SD? That seems to be our formula recently?
2005-06-28 20:56:49
132.   Fearing Blue
#123: Izturis is not a good 2-hole hitter either. He doesn't get on-base enough and he has no pop. The two through four hitters should be the best overall hitters on the team, IMO. It's 1st or 8th for him in my mind. He can bat 1st if he can keep his AVG around .300, otherwise it's 8th.
2005-06-28 20:57:38
133.   ddger
At least Dessens did his share. Hope our offense will wake up and not wait till 8th or 9th inning.
2005-06-28 20:58:30
134.   Sam DC
While you all do your analyzing and thinkifying, I just miss being able to say "Hail Cesar!"

I really miss it.

2005-06-28 20:58:34
135.   Fearing Blue
Dessens did fine, but I feel more comfortable with Houlton on the mound. I hope Houlton remains the 5th starter when Perez returns.
2005-06-28 20:59:36
136.   ddger
132. Maybe Tracy doesn't want to hurt Izzy's feelings or his confidence. Tracy must be a really nice guy but he curses a lot on TV and radio.
2005-06-28 21:00:32
137.   Steve
Phil Garner is showering right now, thinking how lucky he is he didn't have to use Brad Lidge tonight.
2005-06-28 21:01:07
138.   Kilgore Trout

2004: 6 GIDP in 728 PA
2005: 6 GIDP in 323 PA

Bunting is beginning to look better all the time.

2005-06-28 21:01:25
139.   bokonon42
135- Tracy grants one Dodger Thinker's wish.

2005-06-28 21:01:45
140.   ddger
135. I agree. Houlton has more upside and he is able to pitch longer into the game. I've been quite impressed with Houlton lately. Dessens is good for spot starts and at most 5 or 6 innings.
2005-06-28 21:02:30
141.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 132

I actually agree with you on reflect--I suppose I was thinking more of the prototypical two-hole hitter with speed and bunting ability.

I actually think that even if Izzy hits in the 290ish area, which is where I think his natural ceiling really is, he'll never get on base enough to be a truly good lead-off hitter.


2005-06-28 21:03:28
142.   bokonon42
Houlton get's pushed back to Monday, but stays as the number five.
2005-06-28 21:05:25
143.   Steve
Carrara gets at least a one month moratorium from me. If something like that happened to one of my kids, I wouldn't be able to leave the house for a week.

[hat off]

2005-06-28 21:05:31
144.   natepurcell
izzy can bring us something nice in a trade when guzman is ready to take over....
2005-06-28 21:06:14
145.   bokonon42
It's too bad I can't will that unnecessary apostrophe away. It's just going to stay there for all of eternity, mocking me.
2005-06-28 21:06:29
146.   Sam DC
Crikey, blink tonight and you miss our turn at bat.
2005-06-28 21:08:12
147.   natepurcell
giles would be a good FA pickup in the offseason. a nice little 2 yr signing.
2005-06-28 21:08:32
148.   Steve
Now Jason Phillips on the other long do we stick with him before we DFA Rose, and bring up one of the two "future All-Stars" to start?
2005-06-28 21:09:11
149.   ddger
Tracy is again staying way too long with Carrera. This game might get away real soon.
2005-06-28 21:09:20
150.   Fearing Blue
#145: Thanks for the good news on Houlton.

Just a few more posts and your extraneous apostrophe will get auto-collapsed. You'll still know it's there, but at least it will be hidden from view.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-06-28 21:10:54
151.   alex 7
they have more extra base hits than we have hits. that's not good right? why's he still pitching?
2005-06-28 21:11:19
152.   ddger
How come we can't use Wunsch against all these LH hitters. Was 1 inning too much last night.
2005-06-28 21:11:57
153.   Steve
Yeah, Tracy, that doesn't mean you just leave him out there to die. Of course, he's got Erickson warming up, so we're damned if he does, damned if he doesn't
2005-06-28 21:12:29
154.   ddger
That's why we need another LH pitcher in the bullpen if Wunsch isn't available next day after pitching 1 inning the previous day.
2005-06-28 21:12:44
155.   bokonon42
Spelling errors sting, but a mistreated apostrophe is an abomination to Choi.
2005-06-28 21:13:41
156.   Xeifrank
Just got back from my softball game. Went 4 for 4, 3 singles and a double, made one error at SS, we won 17-13. Come home and see the Dodger bats imploded. I guess that arm angle from Lawrence is too much for Dodger hitters. Even the JT couldn't keep Choi out of the lineup tonight, but I bet he tried to find a way. A loss tonight would really make tomorrow nights game a must win situation. With no runs I assume we have very few hits but are showing great heart and soul.
vr, Xei
2005-06-28 21:14:15
157.   ddger
Well, I guess we won't be getting a comeback win tonight. Those 2 runs late in the game makes huge difference.
2005-06-28 21:14:31
158.   Xeifrank
Dessens only goes 5 IPs, missing the over/under line by one inning. The "unders" win tonight, which unfortunately usually equals a Dodger drubbing.
vr, Xei
2005-06-28 21:14:49
159.   Fearing Blue
#147: Perhaps. Prior to this season, most thought his skills were consistently declining due to age. He's picked it back up this season, but is it an outlier?

2002 PIT: 1.072 OPS
2003 PIT: 0.951 OPS
2003 SDN: 0.904 OPS
2004 SDN: 0.849 OPS
2005 SDN: 0.897 OPS

So, the question is which is the outlier, 2004 or 2005? He'll be 35 to start next season.

Besides, it's probably moot since some dumb team will give him a 4 year contract for $40 million or something like that.

2005-06-28 21:17:13
160.   Fearing Blue
#154: We'll have Alvarez back in a few weeks it sounds like.
2005-06-28 21:17:18
161.   natepurcell
well hes 34 or something, and he is a safer bet to put up an OPS above 875 than jayson werth IMO. he doesnt strike out a lot and he walks a lot and his defense is decent.

a 2 yr 17-19 mil contract would be cool.

2005-06-28 21:20:12
162.   Louis in SF
I am sure this question has been asked over the past few days, but I did not see the answer. So please fill me in. If we sent down Thompson to make room for Cody Ross given the offense issues, I understand, but since Thompson had been pitching realatively effectively and at least was an option, WHY NOT RELEASE Erickson. He is collecting dust in the bullpen. There is plenty of place to critisize Tracy, but on that move it seems to me to be all Depodesta
2005-06-28 21:20:30
163.   Steve
If Brian Giles will take what Jeff Kent took, I would think about that. Can we really commit to Werth as the "answer?" Really?
2005-06-28 21:22:49
164.   ddger
Our offense looks really weak tonight.
2005-06-28 21:24:01
165.   Sam DC
I'm saying it now -- Hail Cesar!
2005-06-28 21:25:03
166.   Fearing Blue
#148: I don't know that either Martin or Navarro would hit better than Phillips, essentially league-average, this year. Of course, the kids are 22 and 21, and Phillips is 28, which is why the kids are prospects and Phillips' future is likely as a backup catcher.
2005-06-28 21:25:12
167.   alex 7
why didn't we pinch hit ANYONE there?
2005-06-28 21:25:30
168.   Sam DC
Man, it's a good think I said that quick. And gameday must mock me by pointing out that the lineout was done "softly".
2005-06-28 21:25:35
169.   Fearing Blue
#164: Tonight? Where have you been the past few weeks?
2005-06-28 21:26:07
170.   ddger
162. Why Depo can't release Erickson has been an unsolved mystery all season. Maybe Erickson signed a contract that he has to be on the active roster for certain number of days.

Cesar is really fighting it now. I think the slump has effected his defense lately too.

2005-06-28 21:26:46
171.   Sam DC
168 -- "thing" (and only 31 more comments needed til it's buried)
2005-06-28 21:27:29
172.   bokonon42
And now, to silence his detractors, may I present to you, Scott Erickson, in a closer-esque role.
2005-06-28 21:27:52
173.   Fearing Blue
At this point, we should all be rooting for Erickson to fail miserably, right?
2005-06-28 21:28:18
174.   bokonon42
He really must have picked up some heat; that bat didn't saw itself in half.
2005-06-28 21:28:49
175.   ddger
I guess Tracy is throwing in the towel since Erickson is pitching.
2005-06-28 21:29:14
176.   bokonon42
Look at the movement on that 86 mph fastball! The man is smoking.
2005-06-28 21:29:15
177.   Steve
Another damned to hell experience. The Dodgers get shut out every day for the next week, and Erickson finishes every game with two scoreless innings.
2005-06-28 21:29:44
178.   Xeifrank
162. Erickson is over due to pitch a no-hitter. Heck, nobody knows why he is still on the team and we will never get a straight answer from JT or PD.
vr, Xei
2005-06-28 21:30:23
179.   bokonon42
'Fraidy cat Greene weasels a walk.
2005-06-28 21:30:37
180.   ddger
We're stuck between a rock and a hard place concering Erickson. If he pitches good, then he might stay longer. If he pitches bad, then it hurts the team and he still stays around. What a dilema.
2005-06-28 21:30:41
181.   Steve
All right, I'll give Phillips the year. We ain't goin anywhere anyway.

He bunted on Erickson. Tee hee.

2005-06-28 21:32:18
182.   Fearing Blue
Prior to this season, Baseball Prospectus projected Brian Giles for a 5.0 2006 WARP and Jayson Werth for a 4.2 2006 WARP. Jayson would make about $400k, while Giles would cost anywhere from $8-10 million / year with likely at least a 3 year commitment. I'm not confident that Werth is the longterm answer in LF, but I'm not all that comfortable with Giles either.
2005-06-28 21:32:19
183.   alex 7
well, I guess Lawrence is coming back out after 101 pitches. a somewhat silver lining
2005-06-28 21:33:18
184.   dzzrtRatt
What a performance. I'll never forget it.
2005-06-28 21:33:21
185.   bokonon42
Scott Erickson defines domination.
2005-06-28 21:33:56
186.   natepurcell
obviously, prospectus didnt take into account werths elbow and wrist injuries.
2005-06-28 21:35:32
187.   Steve
182 -- Don't consider this an argument, because I don't know the answer, but what did Jeff Kent project to this year and next? Is he outplaying projections? Werth could too. I'm just asking for curiosity's sake.
2005-06-28 21:37:08
188.   Fearing Blue
#181: Yeah. I tried to point this out in another thread. A lot of bad teams in the MLB have a bad strategy around utilizing good prospects. Once you're out of it, it's a waste to bring them up and start their clocks. Let them get as good as they can in the minors and then bring them up when they can really help for a great price. Bringing them up early, because they're currently slightly better than the 25th man on the roster is dumb.
2005-06-28 21:39:42
189.   Fearing Blue
Kent was projected at 6.9 WARP for 2005 and 3.9 WARP for 2006. He's currently on pace to post a 10+ WARP this season, which obviously exceeds any expectations.
2005-06-28 21:40:26
190.   Steve
You know, I'm tired of watching guys like JD Drew drawing walks. If he'd swing at that garbage, he'd hit medium length fly balls to center field, and Charlie Steiner could go crazy over them.
2005-06-28 21:41:40
191.   ddger
Jayson. Time for 3 run homerun. I can't remember last time we had a 3 run homerun.
2005-06-28 21:43:18
192.   Fearing Blue
#187: My feeling is that if we're going to spend $9 million dollars to improve the team next year, I'd rather spend it upgrading our starting pitching, where the delta would likely be larger than the difference between Giles and Werth. Besides, if we can pickup a left-handed Werth clone (Larry Bigbie, anyone?), we may be able to get Giles level production from a good platoon.
2005-06-28 21:45:10
193.   Steve
I really try to be patient with the statistics, even though I don't know much about them myself. It is with no limit to the irony that I might be considered a "stathead" because I am about the complete opposite. Mostly, I have only a fierce and unyielding logic to guide me.

And it troubles me that 2006 Werth would project as more valuable than 2006 Kent. It's a bias that can be overcome with therapy, which is why I spend time here instead of e-mailing Plaschke.

2005-06-28 21:45:41
194.   ddger
Can Choi do it. How about grand slam now.
2005-06-28 21:45:53
195.   natepurcell
the thing is, there are no starting pitchers to spend it on this winter.

tops of the list
matt morris
chris carpenter

2005-06-28 21:46:02
196.   Vishal
choi help us.
2005-06-28 21:46:07
197.   brendan glynn
I hope Choi doesn't homer and kill the rally.
2005-06-28 21:46:20
198.   dzzrtRatt
Hee Seop Slam? Oh wouldn't it be nice?
2005-06-28 21:46:25
199.   alex 7
does the crowd have the hsc chant going?
2005-06-28 21:46:40
200.   Steve
Strike 1 is on Wallach.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-06-28 21:47:06
201.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
In Choi I trust.


2005-06-28 21:47:19
202.   Steve
195 -- not necessarily in that order
2005-06-28 21:47:50
203.   dzzrtRatt
199 yep
2005-06-28 21:48:04
204.   Steve
4 pitches -- 4 balls. 2 strikes.
2005-06-28 21:48:09
205.   bokonon42
Thank Choi he didn't swing at the 1-2.
2005-06-28 21:49:25
206.   Steve
Don't believe Gamecast, every pitch is in the dirt.

Except for the last one. Nice job HSC

2005-06-28 21:49:36
207.   bokonon42
Choi is so clutch.
2005-06-28 21:49:44
208.   ddger
Great at bat for Choi. Now we need a hit. No DP Please Phillips.
2005-06-28 21:50:04
209.   bill cox
My final Suns live report(last time they play in my town this year).I'm glad I don't live in Jacksonville.I'dnever get anything done.I'd be living at the park.It's really a fun team to watch.Observations:
Orenduff gave up 5 singles in one inning,mostly hard hit.I think he was getting his fastball up.When he kept the sink on it.He was almost unhittable.At one point he struck out 6 straight and 7 out of eight.
Guzman went with what they gave him,hit to all fields,crushed the ball on the double and homer.
Russell Martin is a very smart hitter with a good eye.He worked counts and got a couple hits to fuel rallies.I don't know about Navarro but Martin will definitely pass Phillips by.
Loney's play at first is sweet.One play he dove to knock down a linedrive and threw the guy out flat on his back.He'll hit in the bigs.He looks good at the plate.
2005-06-28 21:50:27
210.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Reminds me of Choi's AB in the ninth in the division clincher last year.


2005-06-28 21:50:39
211.   Fearing Blue
My offseason plan would be as follows:

1) Trade a decent pitching prospect for a young, left-handed, 4th outfielder with some upside (i.e. left-handed Werth clone).
2) Resign Jose Valentin as a stop-gap left-handed platoon partner at 3B until LaRoche comes up. Even if LaRoche comes up mid-season, Valentin would fit in well as a utility infielder with some pop off the bench (i.e. a left-handed Jose Hernandez).
3) Spend whatever cash is remaining on a starter, either through free agency, or more likely through trade.
4) Fill out our bullpen with youngsters from the set of Broxton, Kuo, Alvarez, Osoria, Schmoll, and Thompson.

2005-06-28 21:50:43
212.   Steve
Seanez hasn't thrown a strike in at least eight pitches.
2005-06-28 21:50:52
213.   dzzrtRatt
Shot of Lawrence...looks like he's lost already. Maybe he knows something.

Padre fans must be going insane wondering why Hoffman or Linebrink aren't pitching right now. That's what Dodgerthoughters would be doing.

2005-06-28 21:51:41
214.   Vishal
wait, who's left on the bench? ...rose? robles?!

we may have to resort to pinch-hitting weaver.

2005-06-28 21:52:02
215.   bokonon42
Jayson redeems his CS from last night.
2005-06-28 21:52:18
216.   dzzrtRatt
"That's the wildest pitch this side of Barnum and Bailey." --Vin Scully, 9:53 p.m.
2005-06-28 21:52:20
217.   ddger
WOW, what an inning. Can we come all the way back?
2005-06-28 21:52:28
218.   Steve
Phillips, what the hell are you doing?

Werth, what the hell are you doing?

2005-06-28 21:52:42
219.   alex 7
gameday says phillips just swung at a 2-0 ball in the dirt?
2005-06-28 21:52:47
220.   brendan glynn
two worst swings ever by phillips
2005-06-28 21:53:19
221.   Steve
That's roughly 13 pitches without a strike. Phillips, what a terrible AB.
2005-06-28 21:53:26
222.   brendan glynn
make that three worst. that was just awful.
2005-06-28 21:53:31
223.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
"That's the wildest pitch this side of Barnum and Bailey."

Ya gotta love Vin.

Ughhh--we needed a hit from Phillips. It's up to Saenz now.


2005-06-28 21:53:38
224.   dzzrtRatt
RE: 211 Fearing Blue you are my avatar. That prescription seems exactly right. Someone should put it on a T-shirt.
2005-06-28 21:53:49
225.   Fearing Blue
#193: If they redid the projections now, I'm sure that would no longer be the case. Werth looked pretty good coming into the season, and Kent is getting old, which likely makes his middle-infield comparables look pretty bad.
2005-06-28 21:54:21
226.   ddger
Seanez can hit a homer. Then he doesn't have to hustle and run hard.
2005-06-28 21:55:54
227.   Steve
At least Saenz swung at strikes.
2005-06-28 21:55:57
228.   dzzrtRatt
Phillips blew that inning. Damn.
2005-06-28 21:56:35
229.   Steve
Who pitches the ninth now that we're in the game (sort of)?
2005-06-28 21:56:36
230.   Steve
Who pitches the ninth now that we're in the game (sort of)?
2005-06-28 21:56:42
231.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Oh great, now we need to get 2 runs against Hoffman.


2005-06-28 21:56:59
232.   ddger
Maybe LaRoche should be promoted to AAA. He is tearing up AA also. If he hits well in AAA, he could be ready to be called up in Aug or Sept. Is this too much of a wishful thinking.
2005-06-28 21:58:19
233.   ddger
How is LaRoche's defense. Is he adequate, good, or great?
2005-06-28 21:58:24
234.   Icaros
Werth earns some serious scrap and hustle stats with that play.
2005-06-28 21:58:48
235.   Fearing Blue
#195: I would see if we could trade for someone in the last year of their contract for 2006. Otherwise, we'll likely have to resign Weaver or one of his clones.
2005-06-28 21:59:58
236.   heato
I don't think that any prospect (pitchers and hitters) should ever be called up to Vegas. Playing in that thin air does not do them any good. Vegas is where Depo stores people like Edwards, Rose, and Erickson (please). I really want to see Erickson start one game in Vegas. No way I would miss it.
2005-06-28 22:00:03
237.   Benaiah
231 - Getting two runs with two automatic outs like Robles/Rose and Izzy coming up is going to be a tall order against the guy who throws BP.
2005-06-28 22:00:08
238.   Fearing Blue
#209: Thanks for the report! It seems like this series would have been pretty fun to watch. Did you get to see Kuo strikeout 6 in 2 innings?
2005-06-28 22:00:24
239.   natepurcell
roy oswalt will be in the last yr of his contract next year!!!


2005-06-28 22:01:03
240.   db1022
#232 - see #188
2005-06-28 22:01:11
241.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 235

Anyone have any guess of what Weaver might command on the market? I would think that his well-publicized struggles in NY and his far from flawless time in LA would make him look like damaged goods to most GMs.

Oh, great, now Duaner's in trouble...


2005-06-28 22:01:32
242.   Vishal
we might need more than two; it looks like gascan sanchez is on the mound tonight.
2005-06-28 22:01:44
243.   Steve
Between Phillips' at-bat and Sanchez's dumb 0-2 pitch to McAnulty, this team looks ever more like their AAA reputation.
2005-06-28 22:02:10
244.   Benaiah
Did Sanchez catch what ever Rudy had when we were batting?
2005-06-28 22:02:38
245.   natepurcell
in regards to weaver, we should offer him arby. if he accepts, we get him for 9-10. no biggie, a bridge to our pitchers at jax.
2005-06-28 22:02:41
246.   brendan glynn
There's a good reason why Phillips should be a back up catcher. he ducked on a pitch that was outside. regardless what pitch he thought was coming. He has protection.
2005-06-28 22:02:59
247.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Duaner can sometimes get a K when he needs it. If gets that and a GIDP, we'll still be alive.


2005-06-28 22:03:03
248.   Jerry
Duaner. It's a vulgar spanish verb.
2005-06-28 22:03:46
249.   Steve
if he accepts, we get him for 9-10.


This is Wunsch time!

2005-06-28 22:04:21
250.   Benaiah
Infield fly is as good as a K (unless Izzy and Perez fight over it.)
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-06-28 22:04:32
251.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 245

Is Jeff really worth it at 9-10? Even for one year? I think we might do better with someone else at less cost.


2005-06-28 22:05:22
252.   dzzrtRatt
Please Duaner. Burroughs is barely hanging onto his job. You don't walk him.
2005-06-28 22:05:31
253.   ddger
241. 245. Weaver isn't worth 9-10M. But he will probably get it from some other team. We should offer 6 to 7M and for 3 years only.
2005-06-28 22:05:37
254.   Steve
Umpires are full of Christian Charity tonight
2005-06-28 22:06:01
255.   natepurcell
weaver isnt worth 9-10, but with green and driefort coming off the books, i dont think its a big of a deal.

but i think some time will give him a stupid insane deal. look at what eric milton got. weavers a better pitcher than him. so when we declines, we get two draft picks.

2005-06-28 22:06:19
256.   Steve
OK, Jerry I give up. You win.
2005-06-28 22:06:27
257.   Vishal
duaner see, duaner do.
2005-06-28 22:06:37
258.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Unbelievable. Dauner walks in the sixth run.


2005-06-28 22:07:36
259.   Benaiah
Sanchez has to be a 4th or fifth man out of the bullpen. He can bring the heat, but he wilts under pressure. Having him as our set up man is a damnable offense.
2005-06-28 22:07:44
260.   Steve
And there's the garbage slider to deliver the dagger.
2005-06-28 22:07:50
261.   dzzrtRatt
Into the bedroom to watch whatever my wife is watching.
2005-06-28 22:07:59
262.   Jerry
Yo duano. Tu duanas. Nosotros duanamos.
2005-06-28 22:08:13
263.   db1022
#248 - Duaner es duanando.
2005-06-28 22:08:16
264.   Steve
I will point out that was Wunsch-time.
2005-06-28 22:08:28
265.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Well, the way our pen's pitching tonight, even if Kent had made that play, it probably wouldn't have mattered.


2005-06-28 22:08:42
266.   Fearing Blue
#233: From Baseball America's scouting report:

"He owns the organization's best arm and has above-average range and hands."

"He battled arm soreness, which led to throwing errors, after moving to third base last year."

Baseball Prospectus ranked his defense last year as 12 runs below average, but that may be partly due to the arm issues mentioned.

He committed 3 errors his first start in Jacksonville, but has played errorless ball since then.

2005-06-28 22:08:42
267.   Dodgerkid
I'm done with this team. See you in March 2006.
2005-06-28 22:08:58
268.   ddger
The Relief Pitching has really exploded tonight. I thought we had a chance.
2005-06-28 22:09:31
269.   Jerry
Sorry, it's an -er verb. Should be "tu duanes," and "nosotros duanemos."
2005-06-28 22:09:54
270.   Benaiah
Man I should have watched an episode of arrested development and gone to bed. The 8th innning comeback was like the smoking hot girl who dances with you all night and then goes home with her boyfriend.
2005-06-28 22:10:12
271.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 267

We stink right now, but I'm not giving up hope yet. We still got time to recover this season.


2005-06-28 22:10:45
272.   alex 7
so annoying watching how long jt sticks with some guys. if you bring in a reliever, and the first two guys get on, then you throw a wild pitch, you're coming out. seems simple enough that you don't have it that day.
2005-06-28 22:11:21
273.   Dodgerkid
Who is in our bullpen? It seems to be an overworked two man team of Duaner Sanchez and Giovanni Carrara.
2005-06-28 22:11:23
274.   Steve
267 -- you're done tonight? We got swept by Kansas City. What were you waiting for?
2005-06-28 22:12:14
275.   Dodgerkid
274--for the team to win? What else would I be waiting for?
2005-06-28 22:12:39
276.   db1022
#273 - The fact that Duaner Sanchez is our stopper (non-closer) out of the pen pretty much sums up this team's chances.
2005-06-28 22:13:29
277.   natepurcell
the jax suns are more fun to watch/listen to then the LA dodgers.
2005-06-28 22:13:45
278.   Benaiah
272 - Tracy doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. You let everyone play* and you let the pitcher's work out of their own messes. It is right there in the little league coach's handbook.

*excluding Choi for various reasons and the blank Erickson spot in the bullpen.

2005-06-28 22:14:00
279.   Steve
Some of this, is of course, indirectly related to the Erickson Problem, since we pretend to have 11 pitchers, but we really only have 9, since one of them is Erickson, and one of them is Braz, who Tracy won't pitch unless we're winning, which doesn't happen any more anyway.
2005-06-28 22:14:07
280.   ddger
266. Thanks for that info. At least we have a good fielding 3rd baseman. Maybe he can become as good as Beltre (offensively and defensively). We had to wait about 5 years before Beltre finally arrived. I think we can bring up LaRoche next year if he continues with his progress. I think he can do better than Valentin/Perez combo. We really miss the power and defense at 3rd.
2005-06-28 22:14:07
281.   bokonon42
Assuming Rose and Izzy can't get on, Our Savior is the tying run. This game is going extra folks. Count on it.
2005-06-28 22:14:07
282.   Fearing Blue
#245: We should definitely offer him arbitration. Even if he accepts and we have to overpay ($8-$9 million), the flexibility provided by a one-year contract would be extremely valuable with all the pitching prospects we have who could contribute in 2007. Anyone else we sign as a free agent would likely want a 3+ year deal.

I'd also like to point out. Mmmm... Oswalt.

2005-06-28 22:14:12
283.   db1022
272 - Who do you bring in? Carrara had already been used. You saw Osoria the other night. Want to bring him in with baserunners everywhere?
2005-06-28 22:15:18
284.   ddger
Izzy wants to go home early tonight.
2005-06-28 22:15:33
285.   Dodgerkid
Will we please trade Izturis for pitching, NOW?
2005-06-28 22:15:49
286.   Jerry
Izturis has morphed into Shawn Green.
2005-06-28 22:16:01
287.   Fearing Blue
#277: I absolutely agree. The Suns are a blast to listen to, though I haven't gotten to watch them yet.
2005-06-28 22:16:03
288.   Steve
275 -- You're very patient. That's all.

Oh yeah, and one of them is Wunsch, who only pitches to one batter at a time three times a week. So we really only have eight pitchers.

Izturis. I'm guessing Plaschke doesn't write a follow-up.

2005-06-28 22:16:04
289.   db1022
See? Izturis is a double play machine! Definitely should've bunted there. Now there's two outs!
2005-06-28 22:16:16
290.   Benaiah
Izturis, are you playing for the other team? MIKE ROSE got on base! It was like Izturis came up to bat thinking: "Not on my watch!"
2005-06-28 22:17:20
291.   Dodgerkid
Antonio Perez is so much better of a shortstop then Izturis it's crazy. If he were the starter, he'd be the best SS in the NL.
2005-06-28 22:17:43
292.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
The Dodgers' lobbying of votes for Izzy looks increasingly dubious now.


2005-06-28 22:18:21
293.   Fearing Blue
#286: It's amazing that someone that fast can hit into so many DPs. Between the CS and the GIDP numbers, the only explanation is that Izturis has slowed down this year. Those little wheels of his just aren't turning like they used to.
2005-06-28 22:18:34
294.   Steve
Yep. Move Perez over to short in the short term, since that's where his Sith Master played, and play Saenz or Edwards at third. And then play Waiting for Guzman.
2005-06-28 22:19:18
295.   Benaiah
If I hadn't become so conditioned to losing this would have been a demoralizing blow.
2005-06-28 22:19:51
296.   Dodgerkid
Perez to short. Edwards/Saenz to third. Grabowski traded for cash and/or minor league refuse. Izturis to a stupid GM for starting pitching. Put Dessens in relief. Kick Erickson off the team. Call up Thompson. Fire Tracy, take our chance with Riggleman. Why is this so difficult?
2005-06-28 22:19:52
297.   Steve
293 -- we figured out Izturis was slow the first week of the season. It's just Tracy who hasn't figured it out. He was thrown out tonight trying to steal, but the umpire called him safe.
2005-06-28 22:20:14
298.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 293

That would also explain his iffy defense. Didn't he add some muscle in the offseason to try to prevent himself from wearing down? Might have been a bad idea.

DePo would be crucified by the LA press, but Izzy looks like good trade bait to me while the Gold Glove patina lasts.


2005-06-28 22:21:28
299.   Steve
296 -- Yep yep
2005-06-28 22:21:47
300.   natepurcell
the suns come home on thursday and everyone can watch the live online broadcast.

c-bills is going. game starts at 405 PT. jon should make a game chat for the suns lol.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-06-28 22:22:18
301.   Dodgerkid
We cannot afford to trade any decent pitchers. If we trade Weaver, it means we've conceded the season and are in money saving mode. Izturis is the only thing we have that is tradeable. He is overrated thanks to a media bombardment now. His stock is the highest it will ever be. Replace him with Perez.
2005-06-28 22:22:56
302.   Fearing Blue
#280: He has the potential to be a good fielding 3B, but probably not Beltre level. Right now, he's still a little below average, but with all the right tools to get better. I wouldn't consider bringing him up until the All-Star break next year. It would be great to have 2007 (age 23), 2008 (age 24), and 2009 (age 25) be pre-arbitration years for him.
2005-06-28 22:24:06
303.   db1022
#302 - Where do you see Guzman fitting in, and when?
2005-06-28 22:24:32
304.   Benaiah
301 - Can you imagine what we could have gotten for him in May? Of course Plaschke would have done an impression of the girl from the exorcist, but what else is new?
2005-06-28 22:25:01
305.   Fearing Blue
#294: Valentin should be back around August 1st, so we could play Valentin at SS and Perez at 3B or vice versa.
2005-06-28 22:25:12
306.   Dodgerkid
Fearing Blue, was Beltre that good defensively? I always thought he was just slightly above average according to some of the fielding metrics out there.
2005-06-28 22:25:18
307.   Xeifrank
Saenz sure didn't show much heart on that 8th inning strike out. Catcher dropped the 3rd strike and Saenz just stood there dejected. This is the type of attitude we don't want rubbing off on the rest of the team. (sarcasm off).
vr, Xei
2005-06-28 22:25:58
308.   Steve
8 for 82 in June. Of the 8, 1 double. 4 runs scored. 0 RBI. It's like having a pitcher leadoff.

One thing we haven't contemplated regarding Izturis, which has seemed to follow other mysterious slumps, loss of speed, and other curious ailments.

A trip to the DL.

2005-06-28 22:26:15
309.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 296

DePo is bolder than most GMs, but I think even he doesn't have the stones to trade Izzy. With so much controversy lingering from last year's major deal, I think the outcry would be too intimidating.

I remember a very unpopular poster on the old Dodgers board named OldBear who actually came by here maybe a month ago with a trade scenario for Oswalt that included us giving up Izzy and getting back Everett. That actually looks not so bad now. The scenario also involved giving up Guzman, though, which is what it made it realistic, and which is why I'd be against the move. Even Oswalt would probably only give us the division, but not much more. The pen's just too shaky with Gagne out and the kids at Jacksonville just a little bit too far from coming up to the show.


2005-06-28 22:26:35
310.   Fearing Blue
#296: The amusing thing is that earlier in the season I argued that Izturis was a more valuable trade commodity than Oswalt :).
2005-06-28 22:26:35
311.   Icaros
Somebody make up a fantasy trade of Izturis to another team. This is fun.
2005-06-28 22:26:45
312.   Xeifrank
Defense at the major league level is overrated in my opinion. There is not as much difference defensively between players as there is in hitting. Sure, some players are better defensively than others, but to the same extent as some field goal kickers are better than others.
vr, Xei
2005-06-28 22:26:59
313.   Dodgerkid
It is total insanity that in this day and age with this many millions being played around with that we are allowing a person who believes in the magic of the save, and Field of Dreams to manage this team, or any team. We know that the save is BS, that Choi should be playing everyday and that small sample statistics is meaningless. Fire this dope and replace him with a math nerd.
2005-06-28 22:27:33
314.   Steve

I'll give you DJ Houlton, but Valentin?!

2005-06-28 22:27:37
315.   ddger
Izzy is hitting into more DPs now as if his slump isn't enough.

HOW ABOUT THIS STAT: anytime one hits into DP, he should be penalized as one extra bat and should be reflected in his BA.

2005-06-28 22:28:18
316.   db1022
This bullpen prevents us from going anywhere this year, and unlike the offense, has no injuries returning soon.
2005-06-28 22:28:41
317.   Steve
Izturis for Austin Kearns. :)
2005-06-28 22:28:44
318.   Fearing Blue
#309/310: We're referring to the same thing. As you said, I still wouldn't do that trade because I think it was Izturis, Guzman, and Jackson for Everett and Oswalt. But, I would do Izturis straight up for Oswalt. Izturis isn't any worse offensively than all the other banjo-hitting shortstops, but he is cheaper.
2005-06-28 22:29:15
319.   Dodgerkid
309--I've seen his posts on, and I don't know how he hasn't lost his mind bantering with the semi-literates on that message forum. It is a tribute to this country's inability to teach mathematics to its youth that DePodesta's moves are criticized. I criticized for Beltre, was obviously wrong, higher mathematics revealed the truth. Yet most fans can't come to this conclusion.
2005-06-28 22:29:27
320.   Xeifrank
315. Penalize for hitting into double plays? Then offset it for hitting home runs with men on base.
vr, Xei
2005-06-28 22:30:07
321.   Fearing Blue
#303: As far as Guzman goes, 2007 is the easy part. RF or SS is the hard part.
2005-06-28 22:30:27
322.   Dodgerkid
Two other jokers that need to be traded are Jackson and Miller. They will never see the majors.
2005-06-28 22:30:47
323.   Jerry
Izturis and Billingsley for Harden. You said fantasy. DePo can cash in one of his IOU's to Beane.
2005-06-28 22:31:00
324.   Steve
I would do Izturis straight up for Oswalt.

Well, yeah, and I would do Weaver for Adam Dunn. And Don Zimmer for Harmon Killebrew.

NO trading Guzman. Guzman is the future. Izturis is the banjo-hitting past. Guzman is wine, women, and song. Izturis is Plaschke.

2005-06-28 22:31:28
325.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 305

I had forgotten about Valentin. I think the BPro Annual had him as a better fielding SS than 3B, because his excellent range makes up for his erratic throwing arm at that position, while at 3B range is less valuable. That would make a potential trade easier--we wouldn't need a MLB SS in return for Izzy.

Izzy's numbers will eventually recover. He really isn't this bad. However, we shouldn't be waiting around for him to snap out of it while having a black hole at the top of the order.


2005-06-28 22:31:52
326.   Fearing Blue
#307: Last year he was excellent and he has been this year as well. Prior to that, he was average or slightly-below.
2005-06-28 22:32:15
327.   ddger
320. Izzy doesn't hit any homers (just 1 this season) so his stats wouldn't change much.
2005-06-28 22:32:19
328.   db1022
#311 - Ooh ooh! Kip Wells for Izzy. Rafael Soriano for Izzy. Um...Jesse Crain and Lew Ford for Izzy.
2005-06-28 22:32:40
329.   Dodgerkid
Yeah I wouldn't trade Guzman, but he does strike out a lot. Jackson, Miller, and Izturis, dangle dangle dangle.
2005-06-28 22:32:40
330.   Icaros
317 - I'll take it. I'll even throw in Carrara and Repko.
2005-06-28 22:32:46
331.   Fearing Blue
#314: Valentin is going to hit better than Edwards if he's healthy. Perez at SS and a Valentin / Saenz platoon at 3B works for me.
2005-06-28 22:33:14
332.   Steve
323 -- That trade is so beautiful it makes me want to cry. It needs a third -- does Jackson have any value left? Loney?
2005-06-28 22:33:22
333.   Jerry
324 - the last part sounds like Dan Evans . . .
2005-06-28 22:33:22
334.   natepurcell
izzy for jeremy hermida and scott olson :)
2005-06-28 22:34:21
335.   Steve
331 -- SOLD!
2005-06-28 22:35:10
336.   ddger
Izzy must be having the worst June among all Dodgers.
2005-06-28 22:35:32
337.   Benaiah
Izturis isn't even scrappy right now. He isn't fielding all that well, giving away outs on the basepaths and now he is a DP machine. Good thing the fans really grilled him today in his online chat:


2005-06-28 22:35:34
338.   Steve
333 -- Yeah, Jerry, but he was talking about Mota (Newman).
2005-06-28 22:35:48
339.   db1022
Not many teams need a shortstop (at least they won't admit they do - Washington, Pittsburgh, I'm looking at you...)
2005-06-28 22:36:20
340.   ddger
Fearing Blue, do you know how the Dodger batters are doing this month.
2005-06-28 22:36:22
341.   Dodgerkid
We'll need Edwards as a backup once we get rid of Grabowski and trade him to Jim Bowden for starting pitching and a Rolls Royce.
2005-06-28 22:36:47
342.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 318

Izturis straight up for Oswalt would be just too favorable for us--Houston can't be that dumb. If DePo manages that, he can add best used car salesman of the century to his resume, in addition to his stint in promotions with a Canadian Football team and his job as Beane's econometrics geek.



2005-06-28 22:37:03
343.   Benaiah
How do you do that tinyurl thing? Any link from bleeds into the side bar.
2005-06-28 22:37:20
344.   Steve
Didn't Miller have another setback? Can't imagine he would have much trade value until you can get him back pitching again -- assuming that if you could get him back pitching again, you wouldn't want to keep him.

The problem with Jerry's idea is that's what Beane would probably want for Zito (Newman).

2005-06-28 22:37:47
345.   ddger
Izzy should be embarassed to go to allstar game as starting SS if he continues his slump.
2005-06-28 22:38:19
346.   Dodgerkid
What GMs could we fool into deals? Jim Bowden, the GM of the Rockies is game, the GM of the Pirates, Brewers, Reds. Any others?
2005-06-28 22:38:20
347.   db1022
#342 - Izturis for Oswalt is crazy talk. I'm surprised to be hearing such things from Fearing.
2005-06-28 22:38:30
348.   brendan glynn

Guzman and La Roche continue to crush AA in a pitcher friendly Southern League. Invited to spring training and do the same, either of them start the season with L.A. next year? Or is it just too soon no matter what they hit the rest of this year and spring training. I remember Guzman being a bit bummed not going to Major League camp with the Dodgers this Spring. I know you are not a GM but just wonder about your thoughts.

2005-06-28 22:39:05
349.   natepurcell
greg miller will boom or bust as a dodger. so will jackson. both have trade values that are very low and wouldnt be worth it throwing them in deals.

i think we should trade izzy, navarro and werth to the astros. then they can move everette to 2b. put werth in RF, berkman to 1b for bagwell, and burke in lf taveras in cf.

2005-06-28 22:39:26
350.   Fearing Blue
#334: Mmmm.. Jeremy Hermida. Now there's a guy I would love to get. He's crushing the ball in Double-A (.303/.452/.526) and would give us a legitimate outfield prospect. Unfortunately, I don't think the Marlins are currently on the market for a SS.

How about Cesar Izturis and Jim Tracy for Austin Kearns and Aaron Harang?

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-06-28 22:39:52
351.   db1022
#346 - I think Minnesota currently starts Juan Castro. They have a thing for slap happy defense guys.
2005-06-28 22:40:04
352.   Steve
Pirates have Jack Wilson. They love Jack Wilson.


I smell a Tracy/Izturis package deal! They can run and bunt all...season...long.

2005-06-28 22:40:33
353.   Jerry
349 - Nice idea but don't they already have Jason Lane? He's been pretty good IIRC...
2005-06-28 22:40:44
354.   Dodgerkid
LaRoche is the third baseman of the future!! Perez to short so as to not clog up the pipeline!!! Izturis to opposing team for anything of value!!! Preferably under utilized starting pitcher with at least two more years till arbitration!!!! I see it all now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2005-06-28 22:40:45
355.   natepurcell
oh yea, we would be getting oswalt in return. i forgot that part.
2005-06-28 22:41:09
356.   db1022
#349 - We getting anyone in return?

#350 - Cincy is pretty happy with Felipe Lopez, though he's fooled people before.

2005-06-28 22:41:51
357.   natepurcell
izzy to the twins for kubel, liriano and scott baker.
2005-06-28 22:41:53
358.   Steve
349 -- Would the Astros believe in Werth? They've already got Jason Lane to be a Werth clone.

Izturis for one of those Twins starters?

2005-06-28 22:42:39
359.   db1022
Izturis for Kyle Lohse?
2005-06-28 22:42:52
360.   Fearing Blue
#347: I was not suggesting that it would happen. I was just pointing out that when Izturis was hot, I was against it and am now clearly retracting my statement.
2005-06-28 22:44:36
361.   Steve
Jerry and I are symbiotic at this point. Except about Cris Carpenter. Geez, Jerry hates Cris Carpenter.

Phillies just signed Rollins to an obscene contract. Very dumb, but eliminates a package for Gavin Floyd -- at least with Izturis involved.

What about the...White Sox! Uribe sucks.

2005-06-28 22:45:04
362.   ddger
Maybe we're being too harsh on Izzy. If he didn't start out so hot, then this slump wouldn't look so bad. I guess most of us would have been happy if Izzy hit .270 to .280 this season. It's just that Tracy's insistence that Izzy bat leadoff that really bothers me.
2005-06-28 22:45:09
363.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 348

After seeing poor Edwin implode from overly high expectations in the bigs, I think we should be more cautious with our prospects. And Guzman may need to learn RF, which will take him at least a season I think.

Because of the possible position change, and LaRoche's reputation for being a pretty brainy hitter, I think LaRoche may make it first. But I'd rather we just hold off until 2007 for the two of them. Fearing has pointed out that we don't want to start their clocks too early. If they just destroy minor league pitching and force the team's hand, then call them up, but otherwise I'd rather we avoid the hype. I still remember being so wowed by Loney two springs ago, and he's only now starting to recover some of his old stock.


2005-06-28 22:45:38
364.   Steve
Silva? Is he someone we should want?
2005-06-28 22:45:52
365.   CanuckDodger
So Jackson will never see the majors, eh, Dodgerkid? Better invent a time machine and contrive to prevent him from pitching, and winning, in the majors like he already has. Jackson and Miller and both going to be excellent major league pitchers, and for many years. The only question is if the Dodgers are stupid enough to let them end up dominating baseball wearing the uniforms of some other team, the way this organization was dumb enough to get rid of Pedro Martinez for the cause of "filling a hole" at 2B with Delino Deshields.
2005-06-28 22:46:22
366.   Steve
362 - You could look at this the other way. If he didn't start out so hot, he'd be hitting .192
2005-06-28 22:46:28
367.   db1022
#360 - I didn't think you were. I just thought there was way too many serious posts about Izturis for Oswalt.
2005-06-28 22:47:28
368.   db1022
#64 - I dunno. He's one of those "soft-tossing strike throwers" I've been hearing about...
2005-06-28 22:47:47
369.   Dodgerkid
365--In Jackson's case I meant again. After his majors performances last season, it's clear he won't make it. He peaked at age 19.

Even if Izturis turns out to have a good season, he still needs to be moved. With Guzman, Perez, and LaRoche vying for SS and 3B someone has to go. Clearly the worst hitter should, and that's Izturis.

2005-06-28 22:47:57
370.   brendan glynn
Izzy to the Twins. That's genius. Castro is a .270 OBP. Izzy would be an upgrade. Love the Twins minor league pitchers as well. A step ahead of the Dodger prospects age wise.
2005-06-28 22:49:07
371.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 355

I really think that the price for Oswalt will just be too high. I can't see Houston accepting anything less than a Guzman or LaRoche.

Re: 362

I agree on that point. He's still got a good glove, and unlike when he first came up, he can hit well enough to hold his own in the line-up. He's just miscast in his current role, and it's especially glaring since he's slumping so badly.

He really shouldn't make the all-star team--it'll be an embarrassment if he keeps on sliding like this.


2005-06-28 22:49:07
372.   Steve
368 -- ugh! No more of those. Never mind. I didn't mention it.
2005-06-28 22:49:15
373.   Fearing Blue
#340: On CNN-SI, you can do monthly splits of the team stats:

Izturis has been the worst position player with more than 10 ABs, coming in with a .262 OPS.

2005-06-28 22:50:26
374.   Steve
OK, it's settled. Izzy to the Twins. What's the deal? Who do we give and who do we want?
2005-06-28 22:50:30
375.   Fearing Blue
#316: Though the bullpen is the only place we may get help from the minors this year.
2005-06-28 22:50:31
376.   natepurcell
so everyone agrees? izzy to the twins for kubel, liriano and baker.

done deal.

wow, being GM is easy.

2005-06-28 22:51:20
377.   Jerry
371 - You are right about Oswalt's price. If the Astros do become sellers at the deadline, then he will probably be the most sought-after commodity--a legitimate ace who is still young and has a year left on his contract.
2005-06-28 22:51:46
378.   Fearing Blue
#343: Check out
2005-06-28 22:51:49
379.   natepurcell
i see oswalt being moved this winter, if he is going to be moved.
2005-06-28 22:53:10
380.   ddger
373. Thanks. It's like I expected. Izzy is having the worst June at .103 while Repko is at .098.
2005-06-28 22:53:13
381.   Steve
So who wants to call McCourt and tell him we worked it out?
2005-06-28 22:53:20
382.   natepurcell
phillips just made a bull durham reference... and hes bitching about how unlucky we have been.
2005-06-28 22:53:31
383.   Jerry
376 - the problem with this scenario is that it transforms the Dodgers into perceived "sellers." Neither McCourt nor the fanbase will tolerate it. Trading Izzy for a proven commodity like Oswalt is more easily digestible.
2005-06-28 22:53:31
384.   Fearing Blue
#344: I agree. There's no use trading Jackson or Miller unless we can find someone dumb enough to pay full value. It would be better to wait until they string together a few great performance and then offload them, if that's what we intend to do.
2005-06-28 22:54:06
385.   natepurcell
i have a direct line to mccourt, ill let him know tomrrow when i go to the game. hes invited me to go early for coffee and donuts.
2005-06-28 22:54:09
386.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 365

Jackson and Miller and both going to be excellent major league pitchers, and for many years.

Come on, Canuck, for the most part I think you're right about not trading away prospects, although I'm not as set against it as you are, but this statement is far too certain, no? Miller still has health issues, and Jackson wouldn't be the first young pitcher unable to figure things out. Lots of stuff can happen. Not every young stud is going to be the next Pedro.

Considering the sorry state of the team, I don't think we really should be trading any top-tier prospects this season (that's why I like the idea of trading Izzy), but I can conceive of different scenarios where we were one piece away from having a good chance to win it all.

2005-06-28 22:55:00
387.   Steve
380 -- That would be not counting tonight's 0-4. He's now at .095 or something like that.
2005-06-28 22:56:43
388.   Fearing Blue
#348: They both deserve to be invited to Spring Training, but I think they could use more seasoning before getting to the majors. Neither of them is currently stellar with the glove, and Guzman may still have a position switch ahead of him. Also, LaRoche has only spent 11 games in AA, so it would be nice for him to get at least a year against high-minors competition before handing 3B over to him.
2005-06-28 22:57:14
389.   Benaiah
385 - From what I hear Mccourt pefers to save money on dinner by eating the leftovers of the player dinners. Saves him 5 bucks a meal!
2005-06-28 22:57:19
390.   Steve
383 -- Assuming you are willing to pay the price. Which is Izturis plus Choi Knows What
2005-06-28 22:58:06
391.   brendan glynn
everyone make sure they go vote Izzy for the All star game. Drive up his trade value. one day left.
2005-06-28 22:58:38
392.   Steve
"Guzman may still have a position switch ahead of him"


2005-06-28 22:58:54
393.   natepurcell

very good idea, just like with lo duca. he made the all star team, his trade value went up.

we should do the same for izzy.

2005-06-28 22:59:46
394.   brendan glynn

thanks. I needed the perspective or I'd be calling for them next month

2005-06-28 23:00:20
395.   Steve
391 -- I didn't think anyone could use the argument that would get me to vote for Izturis at any time no matter what he was hitting.

You just did it.

2005-06-28 23:01:23
396.   Fearing Blue
#365: You're rightfully very high on Dodgers prospects, but I think Nate's assessment was dead-on. Both Jackson and Miller have the potential to be dominating #1/2 starting pitchers in the major leagues. But, they also have a high likelihood of busting (Jackson due to not being able to refind his form and Miller due to health concerns with this twice surgically repaired shoulder). It's better to hold onto these kind of prospects unless someone gives you the value as if they didn't have the associated risk.
2005-06-28 23:01:32
397.   Benaiah
390 - I don't think Choi is what the Astros would be after. For Oswalt: Izzy, Tiffany/Billingsley/Jackson, and Laroche or Guzman. I am not saying that it will be worth it, but no way they get less than two big prospects or an ace back. Look at the Randy Johnson deal as a model. Vasquez, Halsey, Navarro and cash. No way Houston trades a much younger and cheaper pitcher for less.
2005-06-28 23:01:37
398.   bokonon42
I've been sending emails to for a couple of weeks now, asking them to send me DePo's email addresss. So far no luck. I've been very specific in what I'd like to tell him; maybe the pitchfork them has them spooked.
2005-06-28 23:03:08
399.   ddger
When a team is having trouble scoring runs, the leadoff batter has more burden to get on base. Since, Izzy is not doing the job, it is Tracy's job to put someone else in the leadoff spot. Maybe, Izzy can't handle the pressure. But I blame Tracy as much for constantly having him bat leadoff. He has some options but Tracy has not acted on it.
2005-06-28 23:03:14
400.   Jerry
397 is dead on.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-06-28 23:03:52
401.   natepurcell
i really cant think of any reason AT ALL to trade either laroche or guzman. some of the pitching prospects i can live with but we need all the positional prospects.

i think we should sell high on orenduff.

2005-06-28 23:05:39
402.   Jerry
With all this talk about trading for a pitcher, it's the offense that's been letting us down of late. Bradley's uncertain timetable (the news today doesn't help me sleep any easier) makes it all the more frustrating.
2005-06-28 23:07:21
403.   Benaiah
I love Oswalt and trading for him is like fast forewarding the absolute upside of one of our young arms to right now. Even if alot of our guys pan out there is a great chance that none of them will be as good as Oswalt. However, we would have to absolutely sell the farm to get him.
2005-06-28 23:07:41
404.   Fearing Blue
#397: I would say that in the eyes of conventional baseball wisdom, Izturis and Vazquez have similar trade values. Halsey and Navarro were not as valuable as the Dodgers prospects you are suggesting. And, even though Johnson was older, he was considered the best pitcher in the game at the time. I don't expect Oswalt to be more costly.
2005-06-28 23:08:48
405.   Jerry
403 is dead on again. Oswalt is the real deal. And Harden may be even better, but Beane isn't dumb enough to trade him.
2005-06-28 23:08:48
406.   brendan glynn

I shocked myself. Now I know how Newton felt when the apple hit him.

2005-06-28 23:09:12
407.   Fearing Blue
#401: I agree. Trading either of those guys could be something we regret for a long, long, time.
2005-06-28 23:10:11
408.   CanuckDodger
Contrary to Dodgerkid's assertion, nobody "peaks" at age 19. Dodgerkid fancies himself a sabermetrics devotees, but staheads would be laughing their heads off at that howler. Jackson is the same age as 75% of the college players just drafted this month who are only now starting rookie ball. But why start those guys in rookie ball? Put them in the majors or at least Triple A, and if they encounter adversity there, like Jackson at their age, well, I guess they must be crap then, and should be released immediately with encouragement to finish college or find real jobs.
2005-06-28 23:10:26
409.   Benaiah
Our starters have been fairly solid, what we need is help in the bullpen. This is what we have right now:


I like some of them, but it isn't like when we had Mota and Gagne slamming the door shut. These guys might be good value, but alot of them make you sweat and require a run margin that our offense can't provide.

2005-06-28 23:10:49
410.   Steve
NO trading LaRoche. NO trading Guzman. LaRoche and Guzman are the top. They're the Coliseum. They're the top. They're the Louvre Museum.

397 -- Sorry, I've confused you. "Choi Knows What" was a reference to our latest little running joke, which is to put Choi in the place of Deity. It wasn't my idea, but I'm amused by it.

2005-06-28 23:10:53
411.   Jerry
My favorite Harden story: "He threw me a pitch tonight I've never seen before. I'm sure it was a splitter, but it was wacky. It, like, knuckled up there, like a [Tim] Wakefield pitch. The umpire said, 'This guy throws ghost pitches.' [He] was asking me, 'What was that?' I told him I didn't know." - Richie Sexson this past week.
2005-06-28 23:11:27
412.   natepurcell
canuck is really sensitive about prospects :)
2005-06-28 23:12:38
413.   bokonon42
Tydus Meadows might be worth anything. And if Henri Stanley was worth Dave Roberts, isn't he worth something today? How many late-twenties, AAAA OFs do we need?
2005-06-28 23:13:11
414.   Steve
409 -- and another part of that problem is how those guys break down in Tracy's usage

Yhency -- only pitches when we're winning. Like that happens.

Wunsch -- three batters a week

Erickson -- right

Osoria -- Won't go to him in any kind of important situation

So you have a bullpen that looks like it's six, but as someone said earlier, it's just an overworked Sanchez and Carrara.

2005-06-28 23:13:27
415.   Benaiah
Ah now I see Steve. I get the Choi deity references, yet I misread that one. Carry on.
2005-06-28 23:13:56
416.   Jerry
408 - I no longer am hesitant about trading prospects. In 2003 we wasted the best team pitching performance most of us will ever see because Dan Evans wouldn't trade Edwin Jackson or Gutierrez for the immediate offensive help we needed so desperately. But he got us Robin Ventura.
2005-06-28 23:14:47
417.   natepurcell
we need meadows with the kids at AA. he is the veteran presence that holds that team together. his leadership intagible is the sole reason for the suns success and chemistry.
2005-06-28 23:15:23
418.   Steve
417 -- He's a real ass-slapper, eh?
2005-06-28 23:16:03
419.   Benaiah
Alverez and Perez will give us some inning eaters in that Dessens or DJ (Dessens hopefully) will move back to the bullpen. Saying we need extra pitchers but keeping Erickson is akin to saying we don't need an extra hitter or pitcher. If Alverez and Perez don't knock him off the roster than... I can't think of anything terrible enough.
2005-06-28 23:17:35
420.   natepurcell
418- ah yes, the youngins just love his lockeroom humor and ass slapping fun in the showers.
2005-06-28 23:18:13
421.   Fearing Blue
#412: My concern about Edwin Jackson is that he is no longer striking people out. Even in his "good" start the other day in Jacksonville, he only K'ed 3 in 7 IP (IIRC). All the other things I can forgive (BBs, HRs, H/9, etc.), but the lack of strikeouts suggest he's no longer a dominant force. He may very well find whatever it is he has lost, but I will admit I'm a little worried, since he hasn't had it since 2003.
2005-06-28 23:19:22
422.   Steve
Jon's silence suggests that he was "lucky" enough to have tickets to tonight's game.
2005-06-28 23:20:26
423.   Benaiah
414 - Tracy doesn't like to play baseball old school as much as likes to follow a strict instruction manual. He is like a computer programmed to respond to certain stimuli: LHP prompts right hand lineup, LH batter prompts LOOGY, save situation prompts closer, runner on first prompts bunt. How come Depo can't try and do a little reprogramming?
2005-06-28 23:22:09
424.   ddger
423. Depo's programs have virus so it doesn't do any good to reprogram Tracy's. Maybe both have to go and we can start from scratch.
2005-06-28 23:22:33
425.   Benaiah
Smart-ball, moneyball and Tracy perfers zombie-ball?
2005-06-28 23:23:05
426.   Fearing Blue
#413: Unfortunately, I don't think those guys have any real value, since they're all 27+ years old.
2005-06-28 23:25:24
427.   Steve
423 -- I don't agree with that in all parts of his style, but I do when it comes to the bullpen. If any bullpen screamed for trying things a little bit different this one does. I would use Wunsch in favorable Lefty situations (of course), but way more than your typical LOOGy. With Erickson in the pen, we just can't afford the luxury of a traditional LOOGy. Yhency needs consistent work, winning, losing, whatever. We're not going to win enough to get him the usage he needs anyway. Erickson should NEVER pitch before Osoria. We've got to see that guy pitch -- not Erickson.

I'm a little down on Sanchez right now, but it can't be denied that he's been way overworked. And that's not all Tracy's fault either. He doesn't have much. But what he does have he can use more efficiently.

2005-06-28 23:28:46
428.   Fearing Blue
Ok. After all of this discussion, here are my mid-season trade suggestions:

1) Izturis plus mid-tier prospects for a starting pitcher signed through next season.
2) Top-tier pitching prospect for a top-tier left-handed outfield prospect.

These are two of the moves I suggested for the offseason, but why not do them now?

2005-06-28 23:29:16
429.   Benaiah
427 - I agree with you that he doesn't have that much. I keep hearing about these cheap replacable parts, but all I see is Erickson, Robles, Rose, Grabbowski et al. Sure they are cheap and replacable, it is easy to find players who aren't worth the league minimum.
2005-06-28 23:31:49
430.   ddger
428. Interesting? Do you have any players in mind?
2005-06-28 23:37:20
431.   Steve
428 -- I would look at selling high on Perez too frankly. Willy Aybar is the FUTURE at second base.

If we took the whole Jacksonville team and moved it here, and sent everyone but Jeff Kent down there -- would anyone be opposed to this?

2005-06-28 23:38:58
432.   Benaiah
432 - I would keep our OF and maybe one or two people from the bullpen also.
2005-06-28 23:41:56
433.   Jerry
431 - McCourt would be upset because of all the money he'd be spending to entertain Jacksonvill fans.
2005-06-28 23:41:58
434.   brendan glynn

no, i'd buy dugout club seats as soon as they did it

2005-06-28 23:45:21
435.   Steve
I guess we could keep Drew, and I had forgotten Milton Bradley was even still around. Mentally, I've already prepared not to see him until 2006.
2005-06-29 00:04:03
436.   heato
Weaver for Oswalt!

Just wanted to see if anyone was still awake.

2005-06-29 00:13:10
437.   heato
If the Dodgers don't come up with some miracle and turn their season around, I hope that Bradley is out for the rest of the season. It will be painful to watch the scrubs out there for the rest of the year, but it will likely be less expensive to extend Bradley should Depo be so inclined.
2005-06-29 00:29:47
438.   bokonon42
If DePo gets another starting pitcher, shouldn't he lose one of the current starters who isn't Houlton? Weaver is the obvious one, but Weaver's gone at the end of the season anyway. I like Penny enough to keep him at his current salary; and I don't think anybody's going to line up for Lowe. OP gets 10 million next year. Is he likely to be worth it? Will the every-other-year pattern hold?
2005-06-29 01:13:25
439.   bokonon42
This is not a joke:

"He's been given an opportunity and he's taking advantage of it," Tracy said of Houlton, who is 4-1 with a 4.30 ERA in five starts in June. "His poise is what really jumps out at me.... The kid's got moxie."

I imagine him wearing a bowler hat, and chomping a fat cigar. Or wearing a cigar hat, and chomping a fat bowler. . .

2005-06-29 01:25:14
440.   bokonon42
Tough year for my favorite spring training scrub, Tony Schrager, .219/.339/.361. Six errors, too.
2005-06-29 01:26:28
441.   bokonon42
My secret to commenting for the cycle: start at midnight-thirty.
2005-06-29 02:58:43
442.   dzzrtRatt
A reasonable reality check for those of us dreaming of a great DePo deal before July 31st:

2005-06-29 06:16:18
443.   Colorado Blue
Raise your hand if you still think we should consider trading Ghame Over...
2005-06-29 06:26:02
444.   Fearing Blue
#443: I would consider trading him in the offseason when his value could be a lot higher. Let him have some time to prove himself this year in the mystical Closer role.
2005-06-29 06:26:36
445.   Fearing Blue
#444: Besides, games could get really ugly this year with Duaner Sanchez closing them out. It's been bad enough recently with him in the 8th.
2005-06-29 06:43:18
446.   Colorado Blue
444, 445 - Exactly! However, just a day ago many on this site were touting the skill and maturity of Duaner and suggesting that Ghame was expendable in a trade.

Don't get me wrong, I like Duaner and think he will improve; but put him in the closer role??? C'mon!

Last night's line for DS:

- D. Sanchez relieved S. Erickson
- M. Sweeney singled to center
- P. McAnulty singled to left, M. Sweeney to
- M. Sweeney to third, P. McAnulty to second
on wild pitch
- B. Giles intentionally walked
- R. Fick popped out to second
- S. Burroughs walked, M. Sweeney scored,
P. McAnulty to third, B. Giles to second
- X. Nady singled to center, P. McAnulty
and B. Giles scored, S. Burroughs to
- K. Greene flied out to center
- G. Blum hit for R. Seanez
- G. Blum grounded out to first

2005-06-29 06:45:25
447.   Colorado Blue
"... suggesting that Ghame was expendable in a trade."

I meant "a trade this season."

2005-06-29 06:46:59
448.   Colorado Blue
I see that Erickson performed decently in a limited appearance... that should solidify his place on the roster for the remainder of the season.
2005-06-29 06:47:22
449.   Colorado Blue
Need to post for-the-cycle!
2005-06-29 07:30:33
450.   db1022
#447 - Not trading Brazoban with Gagne so much in doubt. Add to that, Sanchez has no business being anything but a Tracy "6th or 7th inning guy", not the 8th and especially not the 9th.

If the Dodgers manage to stay in this thing somehow, I'd like to see Jon Broxton come up for the stretch a la Braz last year.

#428 - Is Adam Dunn considered a "top tier LH prospect"? Please?

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-06-29 07:33:31
451.   db1022
And just because Izturis makes the all-star team, we think we can dupe a GM into taking him at top value even if he continues to go "0-for-the summer"?

Reminds me of Charles Barkley's quote at the NBA Draft a few years ago when the Spurs drafted Tony Parker out of France:

"I don't know anything about him, but they took him in the first round, so he must be good."

2005-06-29 07:35:40
452.   Dodgerkid
Canuck Dodger,

I guess you haven't read Moneyball. Billy Beane himself peaked at 19. Players peak that early all the time. We never see them because usually they don't make the majors.

2005-06-29 07:37:48
453.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
When is the last time a player went from hitting .345 to soon to be .245 in less than a month.

Izzy must be hurt or he's lost all confindence in himself. He's even looking very average in the field now.

2005-06-29 07:40:20
454.   Colorado Blue
428, 450 -- Not a bad idea to move Izzy... can Perez then shift over to SS or is he better at 2B? Who then would play 3B or SS?

I like Izzy, but he's way overrated as a lead-off hitter. I say give Perez and his .390 OBP a try.

2005-06-29 07:41:38
455.   Colorado Blue
Plus, Izzy will fetch premium especially if he starts in the ASG...
2005-06-29 08:32:45
456.   Jon Weisman
453 et al - before the Antonio Perez train gets too far out of the station, it's very possible he could suffer a similar decline as Izturis has.
2005-06-29 08:42:34
457.   Fearing Blue
#456: True, Perez's AVG is likely to decline to Izturis's current levels. But, Perez has taken walks throughout his professional career and he has more pop.

The question is whether that's enough to make up for Perez's defensive deficiencies.

2005-06-29 08:43:04
458.   fanerman91
Did Izturis mention anything in his chat yesterday that would hint at why he's been struggling so?
2005-06-29 08:46:05
459.   Vishal

i was going to say pretty much the same thing. he may not continue to hit in the .330s, but i don't imagine him going 6-for-80 like izturis either. plus, he's not as much of a singles hitter, and he can take a walk better than izturis. also, he's arguably faster or better at stealing bases. he'd definitely be a better candidate to lead off at this point than izturis.

2005-06-29 08:50:21
460.   fanerman91
I'd be happy if Izzy were just relegated to hitting 8th with Perez leading off.

Izzy's June BA is now .098. He has an OPS of .259. (BA and SLG are .149 and .110, respectively).

2005-06-29 08:50:41
461.   Jon Weisman
I agree, Fearing. It's just that right now, people seem to be seeing this vast chasm between the two, which may be true today or next week but isn't likely to be true overall.

I will of course concede that once Izturis snaps out of his slump, he's likely to have more trade value. But once Izturis snaps out of his slump, the Dodgers will have little interest in trading him.

2005-06-29 08:51:23
462.   Colorado Blue
457 - The question is whether that's enough to make up for Perez's defensive deficiencies.

IMO any lack of defensive ability in Perez is no match for the lack in Izzy's lead-off ability. I'm not just taliking about his current struggles, but even when he's hitting the guy just doesn't walk enough; and there's no way he's a .345 hitter... .290 - .300 maybe.

2005-06-29 08:52:28
463.   Steve
456 -- Well, sure. In fact, it's virtually guaranteed, given his destiny. But Izturis brings the overrated hype with his .600 OPS, making him (allegedly) trade valuable. Perez is just a stopgap SS until Joel the Destroyer(TM) is ready.
2005-06-29 08:53:37
464.   fanerman91
Assuming JtD stays at SS.
2005-06-29 08:53:58
465.   Colorado Blue
460 - A nice compromise... the dichotomy between JT's confidence in Izzy vs. Choi is amazing to me.
2005-06-29 08:54:39
466.   Steve
Assuming JtD stays at SS.

LALALALA! I'm not listening! LALALALALALA! I wish I could hear you but I have a banana in my ear! LALALALA!

2005-06-29 08:55:40
467.   Jon Weisman
Even with his high batting average, Perez is only slugging .402. His BA is .047 higher than Izturis', his SA is .063 higher. And that's with Izturis in the huge tailspin. Not much of a power difference so far.

Perez' walk rate and speed are a little better, but the defensive difference might negate one of not both of these.

2005-06-29 08:56:47
468.   fanerman91
That's what most frustrating to us "Choi-ites" I suppose.

I wish some mainstream writer (or heck, anybody that could reach him) would ask Tracy why bench Choi so quickly even though he hits homers more frequently than anybody on the team while Izturis and his 259 June OPS continues to lead-off, but that's probably too much to ask of the Plaschkes and Simers of the world.

2005-06-29 08:57:54
469.   Jon Weisman
Keep in mind there are three discussions going on now:

1) who should bat leadoff?
2) who would be the better shortstop?
3) Should Izturis be traded?

I'm only addressing No. 2, and I'm only saying that don't get too high on Perez yet.

2005-06-29 09:05:40
470.   Vishal
oh, i'm not advocating getting rid of izturis just yet... he DOES need to be moved out of that leadoff spot though.

i don't think we should be trading him at least until valentin gets back healthy.

2005-06-29 09:11:45
471.   Colorado Blue
I think Izzy's perceived value to the other teams is probably higher than is deserved which means DePo may be able to get a great deal.
2005-06-29 09:12:44
472.   Colorado Blue
Of course, we thought the Cora back-lash was bad... DePo would be burned-at-the-stake.
2005-06-29 09:15:20
473.   Howard Fox
in re: trading Izturis...

the decision would be do we believe Guzman and LaRoche are the answers...

if yes, then get a good hitter for him

if not, then hope he snaps out of it

Perez is a stop gap, unless of course he continues to hit in the .300s, but even then, he appears to have no confidence afield

I think Izzy's problems in the field stem from poor defense at 3B...this is the only area I believe Beltre's absence hurts us...perhaps Izzy is trying to cover too much ground now...

2005-06-29 09:18:49
474.   fanerman91

The thing with trading Izzy is that if we move Perez to SS, we don't have anybody to go to 3rd until Valentin comes back (unless we get somebody in a trade, but Izzy for another stopgap?). Edwards starting everyday? I'd rather just have Perez there for now.

My answers:
1) Perez. Besides, he takes pitches, so if you think the lead-off hitter should take pitches so the rest of the guys get a glimpse of the pitcher, there you go.

2) Unless Perez can show he's not playing over his head and he really is that good, then I'd lean toward the notion that somebody needs to significantly outplay Izturis because he's earned the job over the last season and a half anyway. The other reason is our pitchers. If our pitchers didn't self-implode at the drop of a hat, it probably wouldn't matter as much. But I'm afraid Lowe and Weaver will magnify the drop in defense we'd get if we lost Izzy. That's all just speculation though.

3) I'd rather not, unless JtD is his immediate successor or we get some monster of a deal cough Dunn cough. Izzy isn't this bad and his replacements may not be significantly better such as to warrant getting rid of him. Plus 3B would be a bigger hole than it is now.

Okay I should pay more attention to work now...

2005-06-29 09:21:45
475.   Steve
Joel the Destroyer will battle mighty Hee Seop Choi for the position of Team Deity.
2005-06-29 09:23:15
476.   fanerman91
So for now, Joel is an "average" defensive SS at AA?

How's Sir LaRoche at 3B?

2005-06-29 09:24:42
477.   Dodgerkid
Perez may not regress until next season when opposing pictures have a better idea of what to pitch to him. Even if he becomes a similar hitter to Izturis, he is dramatically cheaper. The fact that Izturis is a lead off hitter is yet another traditional baseball error. Someone with that low of an OBP should bat 7th at best. Izturis is a terrible base stealer as well. His loss at lead off is no loss at all.
2005-06-29 09:29:31
478.   Howard Fox
476-if they are average afield, then they better be great hitters...otherwise, why weaken yourself defensively by trading Izzy

I, for one, think Valentin, while not the answer long term, would be a big step up defensive from where we are now, once he is comfortable there

That being said, this season is almost a bust, why not beef up our outfield, and open up the paths for our infield youngsters to the majors...

I suspect our pitching staff is just fine, remember, it is tough going out there to pitch every day knowing you have no margin for error, and the other team also knowing you have no margin for error

2005-06-29 09:33:06
479.   fanerman91
Is our defense that bad or are you referring to our hitters not being able to score runs? I don't think our defense is that bad (don't have numbers to back this up). They're not great, but they're by no means horrid.
2005-06-29 09:33:25
480.   db1022
Izturis is actually very representative of this Dodger team as a whole. Was Izturis as good as his .340 start? No. Is he as bad as his O-for-June? No.

Is he a .280 hitter with no power and no patience? Probably. How he got here doesn't really matter.

To me, a .280 hitter w/ no power and no patience is a good #8 hitter. Bat Perez leadoff as he is an upgrade over Izturis.

As far as trading him goes, Izturis' defense is what keeps him here. Even that has been a weakness this year. If he can't get back to playing perfect defense, I'd say he's definitely a candidate to get moved.

2005-06-29 09:34:54
481.   fanerman91
When is Valentin due to get back anyway? I think he will help our defense at 3B as well. Platoon with Perez and have Perez fill in at 2B and LF or whatever as well so he can give Kent days off.
2005-06-29 09:36:07
482.   Howard Fox
it sounds like Valentin could be back by August
2005-06-29 09:38:17
483.   Howard Fox
I'd go with Kent at 1B, Perez at 2B, Izzy, then Valentin at 3B
2005-06-29 09:39:14
484.   jasonungar05
I suggest we ask depodesta to call Tom Cruise to find out what deals to make at the dealine.

Asked in an interview with the tabloid daily Bild if he believed in aliens, Cruise said: "Yes, of course. Are you really so arrogant as to believe we are alone in this universe?

"Millions of stars, and we're supposed to be the only living creatures? No, there are many things out there, we just don't know," Cruise said.

2005-06-29 09:40:12
485.   Colorado Blue
483 - I don't know how he feels about it, but I like Kent at 1B... we might get another year or two out of him there. Yeah, he's getting up there, but talk about the consummate ballplayer.
2005-06-29 09:40:52
486.   fanerman91
I'd go with Choi, Kent, Izturis, and Valentin/Perez. With Perez being a super-sub. Hmm... that sounds a lot like the infield we were supposed to have at the start of the season.
2005-06-29 09:43:59
487.   Howard Fox
486-problem with that is Choi at first twice a week is more like him being the reserve
2005-06-29 09:45:06
488.   Fearing Blue
#469: My thoughts:

1) Perez. He has a higher OBP, more power, and it seems better speed.

2) Izturis. Izturis is about 6 runs above average on defense. Perez is probably about 12 runs below average on defense. It takes a fair amount offense to make up for an 18 run gap. It's close, but I'd give the nod to Izturis. Assuming Valentin gets his full mobility back, he is probably a better SS than either of them.

3) Only if we can get a dominant starter signed through next year in return. Izturis is our best bargaining chip, in terms of value to other teams and minimizing our outlay.

2005-06-29 09:47:18
489.   Fearing Blue
#487: So, you're suggesting Kent at 1B, because Tracy won't start Choi? :)
2005-06-29 09:47:32
490.   Mick
My comment on Fernando's no hitter - I had tickets for the game. However, that morning my 1979 Honda decided it was in need of last rites. So I gave my tickets to my neighbor and went car shopping. So I buy the car, and as I'm leaving the parking lot I flipped on KABC radio just in time to hear Guerrero ground to Samuel and Vinny yell, "Wherever you are, throw your sombrero in the air." I turned to my wife, grief stricken and almost in tears. I got home the same time as my neighbor who runs over to tell me what he has seen and "Thanks for the tickets. I owe you one!." No mention of the new car in my driveway. I've seen a lot of Dodger baseball - I'm old enough to have seen Koufax several times and Don Drysdale. I went to Dodger Stadium the year it opened and told my dad it was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen and I still pretty much feel that way. I saw Maury Wills steal bases, Duke Snider catch a fly and I was lucky enough to be at game 1 of the 1988 World Series and see Gibby hit his miracle. But I've never seen a no-hitter. But I had tickets to one. . .
2005-06-29 09:47:40
491.   Vishal
484. tom cruise is battier than a cave full of bats, but his statement about the possibility of life on other planets isn't really an unreasonable one.
2005-06-29 09:49:23
492.   Vishal
490. i may be the only one who's curious, but what kinda car did you end up buying, that fateful day?
2005-06-29 09:50:14
493.   Howard Fox
489-what are our other choices? Loney??
2005-06-29 09:50:28
494.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
Now batting...1b James Loney. That sounds nice. Maybe next year.
2005-06-29 09:51:17
495.   fanerman91
I think it's a reasonable point. I wouldn't go as far as calling it arrogant to think we're the only ones in the universe, but I can get what he means.
2005-06-29 09:51:40
496.   Fearing Blue
#479: Our overall defense is at least average, though probably a little better than that. We rank 8th in the NL with a Team Deffensive Efficiency Rating (DER) of .696. For those who haven't heard of DER, it's just the rate of balls in play turned into outs. Relative to other teams, our DER is probably a little bit low just due to the fact that we have so many sinkerballers. Groundballs in play turn into hits at a higher rate than flyballs in play.
2005-06-29 09:52:40
497.   Howard Fox
if anyone knows what arrogance is, its Cruise...if he says we are all arrogant, then it must be so
2005-06-29 09:53:45
498.   Jon Weisman
Does anyone disagree with Fearing's choices in 488, at least until Valentin takes some of the 3B playing time?
2005-06-29 09:53:46
499.   fanerman91
That's what I suspected.
2005-06-29 09:54:51
500.   Howard Fox
so we have a defense built for fly balls, and a pitching staff built for ground balls (and home runs)

its all becoming clear to me....

Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2005-06-29 09:55:25
501.   Fearing Blue
#490: I was fortunate enough to be at Dodger Stadium for a perfect game. Unfortunately, it was against the Dodgers.

2005-06-29 09:56:29
502.   Howard Fox
498-can't say I disagree, I personally like Perez alot
2005-06-29 09:58:42
503.   Howard Fox
502...if only he'd be more aggressive in the field...
2005-06-29 09:59:19
504.   Jon Weisman
I saw Dennis Martinez, Kent Mercker, Fernando Valenzuela, and Mark Gardner's 9 innings of no-hit ball.

And I've seen a triple play and Tatis' double grand slams.

But someone's going to have to hit for the cycle in front of me.

2005-06-29 10:00:01
505.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
498-O.K. I'm on the bandwagon too. Seems logical considering our options at this point.
2005-06-29 10:02:04
506.   Fearing Blue
#500: Yeah, I found that very amusing as well. Our intended outfield of Werth, Bradley, and Drew was being ranked by some as defensively the best in the game prior to the season.
2005-06-29 10:03:26
507.   Howard Fox

yes, I was there for Tatis too, great sight seeing the Dodger fans give him a standing ovation...

2005-06-29 10:04:33
508.   db1022
#504 - I saw the Dennis Martinez game too. Only time I've openly rooted against the Dodgers. IIRC, Chris Gwynn hit one to the warning track for the last out.
2005-06-29 10:06:50
509.   Howard Fox
everyone have a great day...I'm off to the stadium...misery loves company....

I fear that the season will be determined today...

if the bums win, 5 1/2 with all that has happened bad so far, we still are somehow in breathing range...

but 7 1/2, just strikes me as the balloon has burst...

2005-06-29 10:08:56
510.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
When is the last time our team had a legitimate lead off hitter? Was is possibly my favorite Dodger, Steve Sax?
2005-06-29 10:09:34
511.   fanerman91
Brett Butler?
2005-06-29 10:10:17
512.   Howard Fox
Maury Wills?
2005-06-29 10:10:59
513.   db1022
#510 - Brett Butler. "Quintessential lead off hitter".
2005-06-29 10:11:10
514.   stubbs
This is Izturis talk makes me want stop reading these boards. The guy is in a slump. Move down in the order, sit him down one game....don't even talk about trading him.

I was at the game last night but didn't have a good view of a few of the balls hit towards the right side of the infield. The single after, Kent's error, it seemed from our vantage point that Choi could have made an attempt at the ball-is that accurate?

2005-06-29 10:11:27
515.   jasonungar05
tom goodwin? no, butler sounds about right
2005-06-29 10:13:50
516.   Steve
Trade Izturis for anything you can get. If you can package him for a pitcher, fine, as long as you don't trade King and Kong. If not, dump him for Henry Stanley and move on.
2005-06-29 10:15:10
517.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
Brett Butler, now that guy could lay down a bunt.

I miss Steve Sax's scrappiness and throws into the stands.

2005-06-29 10:15:51
518.   Steve
What kind of "leader" "slumps" when half the team is on the DL, the pitching staff is falling apart, and his manager is challenging him to succeed?! Wail! Moan! Gnash! What will we tell the children?
2005-06-29 10:20:39
519.   fanerman91
I wonder what Plaschke would do if DePo traded Izzy. Could it be the last straw? Would Plaschke self-implode? I could see it now... Plaschke in a mental hospital, sitting in a corner with a strait jacket, muttering, constantly muttering, "hhh..heart... sssssoul... wheerre's ttthhhe hhheaarrttt..."
2005-06-29 10:27:26
520.   Nagman
The Dodgers have played the month of June with essentially a pitcher batting leadoff.

It struck me that after the first at bat of the game, Izzy is batting in his rightful spot in the order which is "tenth". If Tracy wants to consider Izzy's psyche and keep him in the leadoff spot, he should move 3-4-5 hitters down one notch, i.e. Kent in the five hole which really would be the cleanup spot with Perez the "real" leadoff hitter. Maybe Izzy won't figure it out.

Just kidding. Sorta. But when you start hoping that the pitcher can get on base with two outs so we can get Izzy's at bat over with, there's trouble. I love Izturis and haven't yet put my support behind the new Izzy campaign (the "Trade Izzy" one), but this slump or whatever it is is killing us.

2005-06-29 10:28:36
521.   Steve
Just think. If Izturis spent all of his time on the bases, he wouldn't have enough time for ass-slapping.

All heart and no soul make Bill a dull boy.
All heart and no soul make Bill a dull boy.
All heart and no soul make Bill a dull boy.

2005-06-29 10:31:54
522.   Steve
Maybe we could petition to make Izturis a designated shortstop, where he plays shortstop, but Weaver comes up and bats for him.
2005-06-29 10:34:20
523.   fanerman91
Don't you mean,

No heart and no soul make Bill a dull boy.

2005-06-29 10:35:55
524.   Steve
Actually, Bill's writing makes Bill a dull boy.
2005-06-29 10:36:37
525.   fanerman91
It makes me a dull boy. I get the feeling he's quite proud of it.
2005-06-29 10:38:51
526.   db1022
#520 - He never really should've been there in the first place. It was great that he got off to a great start, but you could see this coming a mile away (maybe not so drastic). You don't hit .340 in the bigs just spanking line drives everywhere unless you are Ichiro.

Once he started his inevitable freefall, Tracy should've had a contigency plan in place. Perez was hitting very well by the time Izturis fell off the face of the earth, so that change should've been made 3 weeks ago.

2005-06-29 10:42:53
527.   Steve
526 -- You guys did call it too. I remember back at the beginning of the month when there was a lot of discussion about how Izturis shouldn't be hitting leadoff, and I thought you were all crazy, if only because you were all risking looking crazy for saying a guy hitting .340 shouldn't be hitting leadoff.

Another lesson in sticking with what makes sense and ignoring the hype.

2005-06-29 10:46:37
528.   fanerman91
Do you think having Izzy moved to the #8 slot would lessen his perceived value? Since he'd now be somewhat acknowledged as the worst hitter on the field?
2005-06-29 10:48:53
529.   stubbs
What hurt more in last night's loss:
a-Izturis hitting ground into two double plays.
b-Kent's booting a routine grounder which led to two runs.
2005-06-29 10:50:43
530.   stubbs
Btw, how bad has Sean Burroughs become? His OPS is hovering around 640 and he has 1 HR.
2005-06-29 10:53:35
531.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
You know what, we are missing Dave Roberts right about now. Too bad we let him go for free. He isn't the solution to our leadoff problem, but he's better than anything we have.
2005-06-29 10:56:07
532.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
Dear Scott Erickson,
Quit wearing the pants I wore last year. Get your own pants.

Signed, Dave Roberts.

2005-06-29 10:56:35
533.   Steve
528 -- That's a good point. We ain't goin' anywhere anyway. If DePodesta was actually going to trade him any time soon, that might even be the winning point.

But come on. This guy won't even get rid of Scott Erickson. Whether he actually believes in Izturis, or won't trade him because he figures LA fans get the mediocrity they ask for, he's not going anywhere.

2005-06-29 10:57:37
534.   Fearing Blue
#528: Perhaps, though his Gold Glove award, All-Star assignment, and general "scrappiness" would still have him pretty high on the list for a few GMs.
2005-06-29 11:01:11
535.   Fearing Blue
#531: I agree. The Dave Roberts trade was definitely DePodesta's worst trade so far. At the time, it made sense with our excess of outfielders, but it's hurting us now.
2005-06-29 11:06:14
536.   Chris H
I don't think this team is lacking in injury prone outfielders.
2005-06-29 11:07:10
537.   Jon Weisman
532 - You're repeating material again, aren't you.

535 - The ever-likable Dave Roberts still keeps getting hurt.

2005-06-29 11:08:05
538.   db1022
#535 - Why? Would he be starting over Werth when everyone gets healthy?

It was a bad trade in the sense that he didn't really get very good value for him. I don't disagree with letting him go though. He's not a good 4th OFer because he's not a good pinch hitter, nor much of a defensive outfielder. He's a glorified pinch runner when everyone is healthy.

2005-06-29 11:10:35
539.   fanerman91
We hurt for him now, but hopefully not so much in the near future.
2005-06-29 11:11:17
540.   Fearing Blue
#537: True, but his value to the Dodgers would be as a 4th/5th outfielder over Grabowski, Repko, or Ross. He has made significant contributions in San Diego this year when healthy (.843 OPS in 202 ABs).
2005-06-29 11:11:47
541.   MSarg29
Off the subject but have any of you seen Sally Jenkins' column about House Republicans threats against baseball if George Soros is allowed to buy the Nationals? Excellant column.

Here is a link, but I'm not sure if it would work w/o a (free) Washington Post account.

2005-06-29 11:12:34
542.   Steve
Dave Roberts. Yikes.

I'll agree. I like Dave Roberts better than Grabowski and Repko, et. al. Sort of like I like Christina Aguilera better than Britney Spears.

2005-06-29 11:13:38
543.   the OZ
535 - Your point is well taken, but mitigated by the fact that Roberts has missed more time this year than Drew.

At this point, reasonably productive outfieders that are hurt only three times a year are quite valuable to the Dodgers. Sadly.

2005-06-29 11:14:47
544.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
We have absolutely no running game whatsoever, Dave Roberts is injury prone, yes, but he can bunt for base hits and steal bases like a champ. That is something vitally important that our club has lacked this year. He's also crushing the ball, 6 jacks I think.LOL.

It's all hindsight now, but he would be a nice sparkplug for our woeful offense right about now.

2005-06-29 11:15:41
545.   Steve
When did Bill Plaschke become Tom Davis's speechwriter?
2005-06-29 11:18:01
546.   Fearing Blue
#538: I think we're pretty much in agreement. The key phrase is "when everyone is healthy". Whether or not it should have been expected, we've had to rely significantly on guys like Grabowski, Repko, and Ross this year. Additionally, Dave Roberts has performed very well this year. Lastly, Henri Stanley is likely never going to contribute in the majors. So, in hindsight, you'd have to rate it as a bad trade.

But, at the time, Roberts was OPSing .696 and DePodesta had to get him off the roster so Tracy would stop using him. That it ranks as DePodesta's worst trade is actually a pretty positive statement.

2005-06-29 11:19:16
547.   fanerman91
I suppose it was also nice of DePo to get him a rank while he was at it.
2005-06-29 11:19:32
548.   fanerman91
by rank I mean ring...
2005-06-29 11:21:57
549.   db1022
#540 - I agree that he's better than Grabowski, Repko, Ross. However Repko and Ross get sent down to AAA when everyone is healthy. Don't think that's an option if Roberts is in that role.

As far as Grabowski goes, Depodesta wanted a hitter off the bench from the left side. Roberts or Grabowski, Grabowski or Roberts. He made his choice and went with the guy with more power potential.

In July of last year, Grabowski wasn't the Grabowski of the "Grabowski Principle" yet. He was just another struggling pinch hitter who Depodesta assumed would get it figured out.

2005-06-29 11:24:07
550.   Steve
But, at the time, Roberts was OPSing .696 and DePodesta had to get him off the roster so Tracy would stop using him.


Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2005-06-29 11:24:17
551.   Fearing Blue
#545: Wow. Don't these people (i.e. politicians) have anything better to do with their time?
2005-06-29 11:26:20
552.   fanerman91
I wonder if it'll be deja vu with Izturis..
2005-06-29 11:31:03
553.   Fearing Blue
#549: That's a very accurate assessment. In hindsight, Roberts would have been a better choice than Grabowski, but at the time Grabowski certainly looked better and cheaper.

The other problem I had with the trade is that he traded Roberts to the Red Sox, which was one of the few teams that would fully comprehend his lack of value. Prior to Roberts being traded, Kruk & Co. spent a lot of time blathering about what a boost he would be to a contender. I personally thought the Phillies would have been a better match, but it's hard to say what went on behind the scenes.

2005-06-29 11:31:36
554.   Steve
552 - One of the assumptions, at the beginning of the year, which almost led to become was the belief that even when Tracy did stupid things, DePodesta would keep Tracy under control with good roster management techniques, dumping waste like Martin and Roberts (not to mention Encarnacion) when Tracy started to acquire his inevitably irrational fixation on said player.

It became clear fairly early in the season that such was not to be the case. I'm starting to consider the idea of Stockholm Syndrome.

2005-06-29 11:34:05
555.   db1022
#546 - The last sentence couldn't be more true.
2005-06-29 11:34:13
556.   Fearing Blue
#552: It could very well be. Izturis' OPS is down to .662, which is just above his career OPS of .639. Of course, his 2004 OPS during his "good" season was only .711.
2005-06-29 11:38:42
557.   db1022
#553 - How did he perform with the Red Sox?

His primary achievement was as a pinch runner, stealing 3rd against Mo Rivera in Game 4 (?). That one stolen base, against the backdrop of a stunning playoff turnaround, made him into a cult hero. SD bought into it hook, line and sinker.

The fact that he's hit pretty well this year is mitigated by the fact that a) he's been injured frequently and b) he'll most likely regress to his career averages and be a pretty bad player the rest of the season.

2005-06-29 11:43:27
558.   Steve
One has to consider the Roberts "trade" not really as a trade, but more as, like, an intervention. Tracy is the addict. Roberts is the crack. The leadoff spot is the crack pipe.
2005-06-29 11:44:44
559.   Jon Weisman
New thread open for today's game ...
2005-06-29 11:45:04
560.   fanerman91
Well, I guess that makes DePo more the enabler these days.
2005-06-29 11:45:26
561.   Benaiah
I think that we should not act as though Izturis isn't a valuable player who makes the Dodgers better. Even after suffering through the valley of dry bones a GG SS who is batting .280 is a nice cog in the big machine. However, the thing that is almost without a doubt, is that Izturis's perceived value as the presumable ASG starter and GG winner is much, much higher than his real value. Last night someone mentioned that Izzy's value might be comparable to Javier Vasquez and I was scratching my head. But Jimmy Rollins just got 5 years 40 million, so clearly it is a sellers' market. I don't think Depo would pull the trigger without getting something serious in return (maybe the Reds would like to upgrade from Rich Aurilla?), but just because something isn't likely to happen doesn't mean we can't loudly demand it (FIRE JIM TRACY!!!!).
2005-06-29 11:50:54
562.   db1022
561 - Reds have Felipe Lopez, who should really be starting the All Star Game at short.

But on to the game chat!

2005-06-29 11:54:52
563.   Steve
561 -- oh hey, me and Jeff Smith are the patron saints of lost causes.
2005-06-29 12:03:25
564.   Benaiah
563 - Jeff Smith? The creator of cult indie comic book Bone? Is this one of those Choi almighty jokes I am missing out on?
2005-06-29 12:04:48
565.   Jon Weisman
No, he means our hero, Senator Jefferson Smith.
2005-06-29 12:08:30
566.   Benaiah
Ah Mr Smith Goes to Washington. Sorry, I have seen it and I thought it was good, not as good as It's a Wonderful Life, but what is? But I am way behind you guys at catching references. Could someone compile a DT dictionary/translator or at least send me my Irony Detector?
2005-06-29 12:13:39
567.   Chris H
I'm not opposed to trading Izturis, but I don't really see a viable replacement. Perhaps, Valentin would work once he returns, but he doesn't seem like more than a 1 year solution either.

I'm not a fan of making a trade that creates a hole that can't be realistically filled soon.

2005-06-29 12:30:29
568.   Fearing Blue
#561: It was me that suggested that Vazquez and Izturis have roughly similar trade value. My reasoning was all around the money involved. Izturis is signed through 2007 at $9.6 million total (with a 2009 option for $5.45). That seems to be about $10 million below market for a 3-year deal for a Gold Glove slap-hitting SS. Vazquez is also signed through 2007, but at $36.5 million. That's probably about $6 million above market value for a 3-year deal for a solid #2 starter. Additionally, Izturis is 3 years younger, and GMs like that sort of thing. Straight up, obviously Vazquez is more valuable, but Izturis' value lies in his very affordable contract and his age considering the current market.
2005-06-29 12:32:26
569.   Fearing Blue
#562: Lopez is quite the offensive force, but he may end up at 2B, since he doesn't seem to be a very good SS defensively. Then again, the Reds pitching staff rarely keeps the ball on the ground, let alone in the ballpark, so maybe it's not an issue.

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