Never Give Up, Never Surrender!

Did good ole SB give up when his internet service was held up by bureaucracy, technical snafus and, ah, user error?

NOOOO!

Did he give up when the Dodger front office said a website fan with too much time on his hands is not someone who would ever qualify for a press pass just because he's a big fan of Hee-Seop Choi?

NOOOO!

And did SB, which is me, yours truly, in the flesh, give up on this team or this season or this site or even Fact of Choi just because the team is playing like merde?

NOOOO! (well, maybe Fact of Choi will have to be given up for a while)

BOTTOM LINE: I now have internet service so I'm back to stay, dammit. I have yet to get DirecTV service up and running but I'm told patience is a virtue and..., well, dash it all, this team will get better.

'Cause they can't get much worse!!

Great to have you back SB! I was just wondering about you in last night's thread. Sounds like you were in true ISP hell.

I too am not ready to give up. Though I'm not so sure some of the players are not ready to pack it in. Hopefully, a couple wins against the Padres will be the medicine they need.

All I remember is the Vegas oddsmakers had the over/under for Dodger wins at 82 prior to the season.

The final ten games of June could very well tell us all we need to know. Seven against the Dads and three against the Halos. If they can manage to win more than they lose during this span then I think there may be a glimmer of hope. But if they continue to stumble, well, then I'd say it's time for Depo to start listening to offers.

Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Okay, then. But at least they could decide to blow up the homecoming parade. The Dodgers, while beset with injuries, have the semi-useless J.D. Drew hitting around .200 with men in scoring position. That's probably the biggest thing hurting the club right now, is the team's inability to seal the deal with runners in scoring position, and Drew's mysterious lack of extra-base hits (outside of his five homers this month, he's had only two doubles). Plain and simple, Drew has to produce. And he's not doing it.

This team's 2005 is coming very close to being over, and we're not even halfway yet.

Rob makes a good point. This team hits home runs and singles, but it appears to have an almost pathological fear of the gaps.

SB: regarding the team not possibly getting worse: we have the Rockies to chase in that department. Don't tempt the baseball Fates.

Here's a silver lining. NL West June standings:

Dodgers
Rockies -
Padres 2.0
Giants 2.0
D'Backs 2.5

Just checked: 27th in MLB in doubles.

5- Five more hits would raise Drew's average with runners in scoring position 100 points. His stats are even better if you include "runners on," as opposed to just "runners in scoring position." The difference between Drew being great and poor with RISP is razor-thin.

In general, the pendulum has swung and the Dodger starting pitching has produced more over the past week or month or whatever than the offense. But I think you're telescoping on this aspect of Drew too much.

Currently, the Dodger team OPS with runners in scoring position (.773) is higher than the overall team OPS (.759)

6 - "This team hits home runs and singles, but it appears to have an almost pathological fear of the gaps."

You've just decribed Dodger Stadium park effects for the past 30 or 40 years.

I keep asking myself if its possible for a team to play like garbage for the better part of 2 months, and still have a good season. Of course its possible. We can all sit around and listen to Jeff Kent tell stories about the Astros way back in 04. I'll also tell my grandkids that throughout their mythical 04 campaign, Red Sox fans were always ready to pack it in - at least based on my reading of Sons of Sam Horn.

The Dodgers, though? In 05? Teams that play bad for 2 months are more likely than not to continue to be bad. I'll stick around, though. What else am I going to do? I'm not that into the beach.

The current Dodger's lineup doesn't scare anyone. We can't seem to hit with runners on. We are in trouble. But in light of everything, if we take 3 of 4 from the Padres, we're right back in the thick of things.

Did anyone notice Jeff Kent chewing Choi's ass in the dugout yesterday. Wow, Choi probably felt like a little bug. But that's what veterens need to do sometimes. I'm a big Choi supporter, but he either has to come in all the way on the bunt, stay at first to cover, or at least run off the field into the dugout or stands. He was caught in no man's land.

I am about ready to trade my first born son for a series win. Please God, don't let the Papas sweep us.

OT: I am doing a stats project that involves looking for the correlation between a teams league ranking in OPS, OBP, HR, SB and AVG and their ranking in runs. This is for stats class not my own edification as I think I already know the answer. Does anyone know a website where I could download/copy and paste this information?

One more positive- we've figured out how to outhomer the opposition again:

    (LA-opp)
April 29-19
May 21-42
June 25-17

Every night I say I'm done with this team, and every morning I calculate how many hours left til first pitch. It's a curse and if I ever have children I can't wait to pass it to them.

11 -- I don't see any Carlos Beltrans riding to the rescue, not to mention any Roger Clemenses or Roy Oswalts.

#16 - Adam Dunn. If there's a shocker up Depo's sleeve, it's him. Cincinnatti should be motivated to trade him, and might look to this year to do it (he's expected to push $10M in arbitration this offseason).

Add in the fact that we need to either clear some 40-man roster room or clear some prospects, and it starts to make sense.

Every day I dream about the Dodgers somehow aquiring Adam Dunn.

Izturis
Choi
Drew
Kent
Dunn
Bradley
A. Perez
Phillips

or something like it. That would just be great.

Now that the Dodgers are 4.5 games back...somehow I feel the season is slipping away, but...

The Yankess are 5 back
THe Braves are 4 back
The Marlins are 4.5 back
The Twins are 7.5 back

And there's not too many people counting these teams out.

16/17 -- I realize that Bradley/Ledee/Valentine/Odalis are not BeltranClemens/Oswalt, but their return will improve the Dodgers. In a division as weak as the NL West, their return could make the difference.

#18 - I get the feeling that Depo gets lost in his thoughts at his desk once in awhlie, doodling Adam Dunn's name with a heart around it on scratch paper.

"Batting 5th for your Los Angeles Dodgers...Adam...Dunn"

Sigh.

I thought Drew's problem was that he wasn't durable.

Oh well.

Steve,

J.D. Drew is just as good as Beltran, if not better. Remember that Carlos was kind of a let down acquisition for Houston until the very end of the season when he went crazy. There's still time.

Certainly no Oswalt or Clemens on this team, but with Weaver and Houlton pitching better, Perez on his way back, it's not time to give up yet.

Dunn and Harang (a trade rumor I helped start around here) would also be nice. We'll see.

I forgot about Ledee. We'll call them Lewerthrepski.

It's true - outside acquisitions would be interesting, but I'd be thankful just to see Bradley play again. Just seems like every Dodger injury this year has endured past its expiration date - except Grabowski's.

Perhaps the Dodgers need to play Ozzie Guillen's "Smartball" to get back into the race.

I have no idea what's is exactly so smart about it, but I think it has something to do with having starting pitchers not giving up a lot of runs.

The Dodger starters have been holding their own on this road trip, with the exception of D Lowe's meltdown in the 6th inning on 6/16.

Date - IP H R ER BB K
16Jun 7.0 7 3 3 1 6 Weaver
17Jun 7.0 8 3 3 1 7 Penny
18Jun 5.2 9 8 3 0 1 Lowe
19Jun 6.0 5 4 4 4 6 Houlton
20Jun 6.0 2 1 0 1 4 Dessens
21Jun 6.0 5 2 1 1 4 Weaver

Remember how fast Cora recovered from that broken hand last spring?

Kid was a gamer.

Hilarious #21.

But what are you going to do if you're a fan - stop rooting?

Says it all.

Howdy, SB. I gleefully told my Dad about "Fact of Choi" while we were watching the 3-fer game a week plus ago. I'm sorry to report that he thinks you're a little, well, eccentric.

What is this "smartball" business? I gather this is someone's (I'm deducing Joe Morgan, but not sure) effort to make clear that "smallball" is robust and virile and even better than we thought it was?

"Smartball" is actually Ozzie Guillen's term.

And He Who Shall Not Be Named and Thorne ran with it all night. HWSNBN thinks that if the White Sox win the World Series all other teams will try to imitate them and then baseball will be changed.

Unlike using time-honored traditions like scoring lots and lots of runs.

Thanks Bob. This definitely sounds the Next Big Thing. How could a team ever win a game where it gives up three whole runs and benefits from three opponent errors unless it was very very smart?

Peavy should finally be healthy after that little infection he was fighting. Facing the pathetic Dodger lineup I could see him flirting with a no no tonight.
12 games under 500 after our 12-2 start two months later. No denying this is a bad team. Can we get better? It is up to Depo because if we keep throwing out a lineup that has anyone of these 3 starting Grabo/A Perez/Robles/Werth/Edwards in it we deserve to get our hat handed to us cause on most nights Kent/Drew/Choi aren't good enough to make up for the below level talent playing around them.
Dave Roberts might steal 10 bases in this 3 game series going against a pitching staff that has no clue about how to slow down the running game.

More then 1/3 of the way into the season the White Sox have the best record in baseball and they did without their best hitter. I find it very arrogant that no one is giving the team credit for winning while our team is playing like drivel. So they might not have enough talent to beat the RedSox or Yanks and make it to the World Series. At least the % is very high that they will be playing in the playoffs and that is the point of playing the season.
So go ahead and make fun of how they do it. Today they brought up a AAA pitcher who is actually ready to pitch in the Major Leagues. They had the guts to sign AJ when no one would touch him including us. They signed a Japanese player who is actually good instead of the one we signed who is flailing away in AAA. They have a bullpen that is outstanding.
And they bunt alot. It may not work for us because we'd just leave that runner at 2nd or 3rd but it DOES work for them. Plus they hit a lot of home runs and steal alot of bases. And they WIN

Anyone else hoping that the Giants start to win a few games and trick Sabean into thinking they could contend this year? Desperate to win while Bonds is still on the team, Sabean might trade away the Giants few remaining decent prospects and condemn the team to the cellar for the next four of five seasons.

Harang and Weaver lines look pretty similar the last 4 years.

The White Sox dirty little secret is that their "reconfigured" offense is noticably worse than last year.

2004
5.33 R/G (3rd)
.790 OPS (4th)

2005
4.75 R/G (5th)
.742 OPS (7th)

They're scoring 11% fewer runs and their offense has gotten 400% more credit. Hmm wonder if it has to do with that 3.58 team ERA. Kinda like marrying rich I guess.

I don't recall seeing this graphic last night:
Carlos Lee .890 OPS (.891 2004)
Podsednik .687 OPS (.677 2004)

Kinda makes my blood boil. Kenny Williams does something inexusable like that, and gets to sit there with the title of "GM, best team in the majors." Too bad Thomas (5hr, 28ab, 1.215 OPS) came back to reduce the team speed.

18 - Just for fun I pulled some trades on my PS2 baseball video game to acquire Dunn and Harang. The lineup was awesome. The only I worry about is Tracy doing something stupid with the lineup if he had done. Sometime like batting Drew, Dunn and Choi all in a row...

38 - Who'd you give up?

It's the injuries. because of that and because of the NL West the Dodgers are still in it. If they can't get healthy they will be buried even in this lousy NL West. Grabs,repko, werth should never be in the same lineup together.

If Dunn is traded and it's not to the Dodgers something went horribly wrong.

Peavy is the Dodger killer, the Dodgers are playing like crap in every way possible, at best we are inconsistent, our pitching can't be relied upon, our hitters (Kent notwithstanding) have not been clutch, our fielding is iffy on a good day.

This all being said, the Bums will take 5 of 7 from the Padres, and 2 of 3 from the Angels, in the next 10 days.

39 - On PS2 he was probably able to get them for Carrara and Repko.

Stating the obvious here, but it has been painful to watch the bullpen blow leads the last two games, and the impact of Gagne's injury can't be underestimated. For that very reason, I hope that DePodesta realizes that "selling the closer" may not be a great idea for this team this season.

Second, I don't understand the infatuation with Adam Dunn. He hits some monster homeruns, but his swing is very long and he strikes out a ton. Earlier in the thread there was mention of the Dodgers hitting only singles and homeruns. Isn't that all Dunn will provide? If the Dodgers were to trade for a player, I hope it would be to balance out the roster with a high OBP gap hitter with speed. Does such a player exist?

When Bradley comes back, I have a feeling the offense will perk up. The starters are holding their own recently. Tough luck defensive lapses and bullpen inconsistancy have been the sore spots. The Dodgers are competing well with a depleted roster. They just don't have enough to beat a team like the White Sox with Gagne, O. Perez, Bradley, and Izturis hurting.

Reds play Cardinals this week. Let's hope the Cards annihilate them and force them into trading mode. Off day on thursday for the Reds(after card series) to realize they need to move Dunn or more.

#43

Umm Dunn has an OBP of .398 and is a career OBP of .384

you want him on the dodgers.

If the Dodgers were to trade for a player, I hope it would be to balance out the roster with a high OBP gap hitter with speed. Does such a player exist?

Dunn is a high OBP hitter (.384 career) with speed (he runs very well). With a career .518 SLG, I'll trade some of those gaps for the 46 HRs he hit last season.

Why are strikeouts a big deal? An out is an out, and what you may lose in the occasional sac fly or "productive" groundout you more than make up for in not GIDP. Dunn has only grounded into 25 DPs in his career (one this season, 8 last year).

# 43
The Dodgers are competing well with a depleted roster.

They are not competing well. They have lost 6 games in a row and 3 of them to the worse team in baseball. How is that competing well?

Dunn immediately becomes the best hitter on the dodgers and it's not that close. Dunn is 25(I think) and is one of the ten best hitters in all of baseball.

39 - Well I kind of cheated... On the game (EAsports' MVP Baseball) there is a fair trade option, but I had it off at the time. So I think I traded Valentin and Edwin Jackson and probably one of the Lewerthrepskis...

You turned off the fair trade option and still gave up Jackson?

Molokai,
How do you know that Brandon McCarthy will be a success for the White Sox? So far, he's 0-1 with a 6.97 ERA. The Rangers hit four homers off of him in 5 innings. He may do better today, but he's also pitching against the Royals and Lima. (Unless Lima's performance last week was for real.)

I think the White Sox success stems from their pitchers. They have a staff ERA of 3.58, second best in the majors (Cleveland is at 3.50).

Their DIPS ERA is 4.14 which is 10th best in the majors which leads me to believe that they are going to come back to the pack a little.

The White Sox are obviously a better team than the Dodgers are now. But I think they are winning in spite of the presence of Scott Podsednik, not because of it.

whoops, i said jackson, i meant erickson

I read Aaron Gleeman's take on Dunn, and have almost changed my mind:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/adam-dunn-three-true-outcomes

I still think a top tier pitcher would be prefered. I have questions,too, about where we are going to get the MOB from in our current lineup (especially without Bradley. and with Drew and Choi staying the same). Also, I wonder how many HRs Dunn gives up by moving here? And if he can't get gappers, then, well, he fit's right in with what we have now. I dunno, if we can not trade izturis and gagne, but maybe jackson and somebody else, then I won't think it's that bad. Still he strikes me as another aquisition that has a high bust probability... even given his True Outcome Heroics.

42, 49: Dang, Icaros... you were close!
I would trade Valentin, Edwin Jackson and 3/4 of the Lewerthrepskis (I would keep "Le")... what a steal that'd be. There's no way the Reds are that dumb.

52 - Now I know the programmers of that PS2 game were on crack...

Icaros,
So, do you like my new couch?

Dunn would give us very few singles, and far more homeruns than LeWerthrepski, all of whom are regressing to their mean with a collective bullet. I'm comfortable with the concept of trading for Dunn in the abstract. Of course Dunn won't fix many things, including our woeful pitching, but he will be an offensive presence.

The White Sox are completely a creature of their pitching staff. If Billy Beane was running the White Sox, Joe Morgan would say:

"You know, it really doesn't matter what you do on the offensive side of the ball, as long as your staff has a 3.50 ERA, and you have the Big Three of Buehrle, Garland, and El Duque anchoring it."

It's just dishonest. I don't know when anyone said that honesty was a prerequisite of writing or opining about sports, but it seems like it ought to be. In this sense, Morgan is no better than some hack spin doctor on the O'Reilly Factor. Actually, in every sense, Morgan is no better than that.

43: You're kidding, right? Dunn is a monster. He's the poster-child for the "Three True Outcomes" hitter - basically a better version of Choi. Ks, BBs, and HRs. Unless Tracy were to start using him to hit-and-run, he'd be perfect. In fact, given his age, the only hitter I'd rather add to the roster in all of baseball is Pujols. That's in all of baseball. For one year, there are a few other guys I'd prefer. He also fits defensively, given the current black hole in LF. But 25 and already that great? Unless you believe, a la Steve Lyons, that doubles are better than HRs, and, a la Buster Olney, that 4-3 groundouts are better than Ks, this is a no-brainer. So much so, that I can't believe Cincy would trade him for anything less than a king's ransom.

Various people in various places (including this one) have discussed the hypothetical of "retooling for 2006." It sounds like it might be reasonable at some point, but who could we realistically deal, and for what?

Phillips - a solid catcher, but Navarro's knee injury kind of defeats the purpose of getting the kid some MLB ABs. Phillips isn't a payroll burden, either. Why deal him, unless we get blown away by an offer

Saenz - how much can we realistically expect to get in return for a bench bat?

Weaver - I could see logic in both keeping him and trading him

Gagne - he's hurt. Low/no value.

Valentin - veteran IF with a power bat and reasonable salary, but he's hurt.

Drew - Better than Beltran at a lesser price; why trade him and open a hole in next year's team?

Kent - same thing.

Choi - too much production and upside for the price to justify a deal, unless it's a really good deal.

Our good relievers are too young and cheap to include in anything less than a great deal.

Our starting pitchers sans Weaver are all locked up for a couple years. None of them are getting dealt.

----------------------------------

The point is, there's really not much "re-tooling" to be done for 2006. Almost anybody tradeable is hurt, and everyone else is either young and cheap or locked up to be our core going forward. It seems the best option is to ride it out and hope guys get healthy. A Dunn-esque bat and one more good reliever might be enough to get back into the thick of the race.

The Dodgers and White Sox both have 25 sacrifices this year. The Dodgers have 17 by pitchers and the White Sox have two.

Izturis has 3. Bradley and Choi have 2 and Phillips has 1. I can't recall any of them being useful. Unless you find getting Steve really angry to be useful.

As I've mentioned, I went to the final two games of the Dodgers vs. royals series. You can imagine that they set my personal mark for worst games attended. Thursday's blowout was so mind-numbingly atrocious, I almost left early. I didn't even stand for the stretch. I scared my girlfriend and her family quite a bit. I should know better than to allow outsiders to attend games with me.

Anyway, I acted poorly as I felt. I could not mask my disappointment and frustration. I wonder why this happens. Why should I take so personally an event in which I have no effect on the outcome? I apologized to my intended's family. I explained that I know it is irrational, but there is nothing I can do to reverse my mood. An embarrassing moment, but at least I'm honest.

I told myself that night that I was going to change my ways, I decided that I would not check the score during the game, would not schedule dinner breaks to hear the game on XM and would not visit Dodger Thoughts until late in the season or the offseason to ward off any trace of hope.

So here I am, breaking my rules and thanking you all for inspiring me to root on as I have for my entire life. I have endured the criticism of Royals fans, but I'll press on. What else can you do when you bleed Blue?

By the by, I did not redeem my ticket stub for a free dozen Krispy Kreme doughnuts after Thursday's game. I refused to gain from the Dodgers' loss.

IF the Dodgers actually did trade for Dunn, would people be horribly angry were Tracy to put him in the leadoff spot? Yes, he can drive in runs, but his OBP and power potential make him a pretty devestating leadoff hitter. He even has some speed. Yes, he strikes out a lot. He would still get on base more often than Cesar. Milton, Drew, and Kent behind him would make a pretty fearsome foursome.

62: Since I firmly believe that the quality of the hitters is orders of magnitude more important than the order in which they display said quality, batting Dunn leadoff wouldn't bother me in the least.

But I think this is all a pipe dream. Unless Cincy would take prospects for Dunn, we have nothing of value to send their way, for the reasons Oz laid out.

61 - Very inspiring Spageticus... my in-laws were in town for the weekend. They are both big baseball fans; not neccessarily a particular team, but baseball in general. In particular my F-in-L has reams-and-reams of callups, moves, DL changes, etc. dating back to 1979.

Anyway, he and M-in-L were grinning ear-to-ear last night as I cursed my way through the bottom of the 8th. My M-in-L turned toward my F-in-L and said: "Remind you of anyone, dear?" We all had a great laugh, my mood was lifted, and I gained even more respect in Dad's eyes. All-in-all a bitter-sweet evening.

It would have been even better had I not had to listen JM and the Efficacies of "Smartball". I almost throw a brick at my TV.

I would have Choi lead off.

Choi
Bradley
Dunn
Kent
Drew

Screw Joe Morgan.

#61 Spageticus - You may (or may not) find it helpful to read the book "Fever Pitch" by Nick Hornby. Yes, he is talking about his obsession with a soccer team but I found the principles of irrational fan behavior mirrored my lifetime of following the Dodger ups and downs. Particularly funny were the accounts of how soccer and his love life interacted.
I know there is a recent movie out based on the book, set in Red Sox Nation, but I'm no fan of what's-his-name and what's-her-name (seriously, I don't know the names of the "stars"). Is it worth seeing?

We can't have a discussion of Adam Dunn without remembering this bit of Dodger history:

"...former Dodgers GM Dan Evans was unwilling to move right-hander Edwin Jackson for Dunn."

Ken Rosenthal, 2-24-04

Why root against the Dodgers at this point? In my opinion, the one good reason to do so is so that DePo can FIRE JIM TRACY. That's the bottom line for me.

What I don't like about Tracy:

5. Doesn't know how to position his fielders.
4. Doesn't know how to manage the running game.
3. Doesn't know how to make out an effective line-up
2. Doesn't know how to handle his pitching staff.
1. Has no personality.

That's right, my #1 problem with Jim Tracy is that he is as boring as watching paint dry. I firmly believe a team reflects its manager's personality. Occasionally, a strong willed player can inject some needed heart (Think Kirk Gibson 1988) but usually a team's fire comes from the top. Mike Scioscia makes some bone-headed moves with the Angels' running game, but at least his team plays with a passion that makes them fun to watch.

When a team is feeling down like the Dodgers are right now, they need a manager who can get them fired up, or who can lighten the mood and make the game fun. Tracy can do neither of those things.

Bottom line: Jim Tracy is a bad baseball man and a bad motivator.

Baylor and Oregon State are 3-3 in the ninth inning in an elimination game at the College World Series, if you're interested ...

http://ncaasports.com/baseball/mens/gamecenter/boxscore/cws/07

#58,
I think you meant #53. Well, let's put it this way, when was the last time we traded for power-slugger and that slugger lived up to potential? I guess Green and Sheffield sort of did that, and I can see that Dunn is better than Green back then. I guess I worry that he's just gonna get here and collapse.

64: My in-laws were visiting this weekend too. But to avoid any problems, I watched last night with the sound off. Didn't even want captions. I don't really need anyone telling me what I'm seeing in a baseball game, so unless the announcer(s) add value with stories, etc. (a la Scully), I avoid 'em. So I missed the Morgan Experience altogether.

ESPN still managed to annoy me in two ways, though. First, they're too enamored of their multiple cameras. I couldn't tell what was happening half the time with that behind-the-plate shot. They're fine for multiple angles on replays, but not for live action. Second, and more egregiously, those stoooopid in-game interviews are bad enough, but when they show the interviewee (Williams, then Gretzky?!) instead of the game, that's just wrong; and when they don't cut away briefly to tell us what just happened on a non-routine play (it was either the blown call at first and Choi's Matrix routine or it was the Weaver souvenir toss -- I don't remember), that's inexcusable. I blame whoever was directing the show. Just have Sam Ryan cut in and tell Gretzky to 'hold that thought' for a sec, explain what's going on, and then get back to the inane interview.

Also, I wonder how many HRs Dunn gives up by moving here?

Have you seen the HRs he hits? Griffith Park wouldn't suppress his totals. He's the one who took Lima about 600 feet deep last year.

And if he can't get gappers, then, well, he fit's right in with what we have now.

As Jon said earlier, no one has ever been able to hit gappers in Dodger Stadium.

#66- Fever Pitch (the new one) is worth seeing in spite of the screechy cast and obligatory Farrelly Bros. sight gags. The writing is more clever than you'd expect.

Here are two good reads on this subject of "excessive caring":

http://tinyurl.com/rdsi
Rob Neyer, "It's not easy, but fans must press on..."

http://tinyurl.com/c3tjl
by Steven Rubio 11/97

"We care because we believe in some part of our hearts that if we care long enough, joy will come. We keep caring because we know the longer we care, the greater the joy."

Personally, I think the idea that Tracy's personality is at fault is ludicrous - and furthermore, to make this the issue is counterproductive.

Just like in life, all types of personalities prevail in baseball managing. Further, what we see of Tracy's on TV is not exactly a definitive view of what he is like in the dugout, practice field and clubhouse.

This team was plenty fun to watch last year and in April - both after having endured some down times.

I have my criticisms of Tracy, so it's not like I'm blindly defending him.

He's a bad baseball man? Please.

I had a good laugh at #68. I can't help thinking of how he'd be compared to Joe Torre if the team had kept winning like they were in April.

Of course, what do I know? I'm not in the locker room, or the office for the player meetings...

Bob, the couch is pretty nice, but I think the material is giving me a rash. I have sensitive skin. Here kitty...

70: No, I meant 43, but if my worship of Dunn is relevant to 53 too, then OK. DS is a better than average HR park, and the worst park of all for doubles and triples. So I wouldn't worry about Dunn failing here. Also, how many of the declining sluggers that you refer to were as young as AD? He should still improve for a couple years. We got Green right after his career year, which was right at the expected age. Sheff was older, and is more a line drive hitter than a fly-ball guy. Who else are you talking about?

We got Green right after his career year, which was right at the expected age. Sheff was older, and is more a line drive hitter than a fly-ball guy. Who else are you talking about?

Todd Benzinger.

#65... Bradley used to be leadoff man in Cleveland. If he hasn't gotten too fat, that's where I'd put him.

1. Bradley
2. Drew
3. Kent
4. Choi
5. Werth
6. Phillips
7. Perez
8. Izzy

This alternates lefties and righties throughout the bulk of the order, puts Drew at #2 where he belongs (he walks too much to be a 3 or 4), puts Choi in a position to hit homeruns with men on base, lets Bradley focus on hitting for average instead of power, takes some pressure off of the youngster Perez, and drops the low on-base % Izzy to #9.

One more good bat would help a lot... replace Werth with somebody half decent and we would have a heck of a line-up.

...puts Drew at #2 where he belongs (he walks too much to be a 3 or 4)

I don't understand the logic in saying walks are a negative for a middle-of-the-order hitter. Does that mean guys like Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds should never have hit 3rd or 4th?

People too often, I feel, label a player who draws a lot of walks as someone who "looks" for walks, when instead it really only means that he doesn't chase bad pitches.

#80, plus that I can see Kents walks going up in that line-up

81: Hear hear. That's exactly right. The height of inconsistency is when guys like Morgan seem to understand that walks are a VERY BAD THING for pitchers, but also think they're not GOOD THINGS for hitters. And of course, the icing is that Morgan walked a ton when he played.

Some talking heads will actually realize what they're saying about walks, and make the case that guys should "expand the zone," i.e., swing at bad pitches. Unless they're named Vlad or Alfonso, though, that's a pretty dumb thing to do.

There is a caveat - when the ump's strike zone includes balls, then I guess a hitter should not be as picky (looking for a walk turns into looking at a strikeout - just ask Werth and Grabowski). But I'd say Barry Bonds (and Babe Ruth) did pretty well for themselves spitting on bad pitches.

#78, eric davis, todd hundley, (maybe devon white), brian jordan

But yeah, Dunn is younger.

Sorry for all the single-liner posts, but how could I forget Burnitz?!?! (still older and injury prone, but what a bust that was!)

That's the thing, though. Of all the players you mentioned, only Eric Davis (who LA got when he turned 30) had numbers even remotely close to what Dunn has so far.

Brian Jordan and Devon White? I don't know who expected anything from those two, but it sure wasn't me.

I remember reading (probably in one of Roger Angell's books) a quote from a player after a frustrating loss like the last two when there had been fights in the stands. He said something like "I know it's frustrating. If I'd been in the stands I'd be whaling right with them."

Something we occasionally forget. As unhappy as we are, the guys on the field are even more so. They get paid to perform, and when it doesn't happen they realize it.

Mainly reacting to Jon's original post, the one word he didn't use was "disabled." I disagree with retooling for '06 at this point, because it's June, and we don't have much of our anticipated team out there now. As much as I'd like to have Dunn, and hope we get him, if we're going to toss a bunch of A level prospects at another team, let's do it to get a terrific starting pitcher. Dunn's additional home run increments over our other left fielders won't win us many more games, but a #1 or #2 level starter could turn this season around, assuming Izzy, Bradley and (dare I hope?) Gagne come back at some point.

Wow, 90 posts is a bit much to try to respond to / put my own two cents in.

I'm opposed to "packing it in" for the year for the same reason Jon mentioned, everyone in the NL, outside of St. Louis, isn't very good. LA has been just crushed with injuries, many to guys who just couldn't afford to get hurt, and we're still only a few games out of first place. And we've still got tons of games left against the rest of the NL West.

Secondly, who exactly are we "dumping" once we supposedly giv eup on the season? The team, for the most part, is made up of the guys Depo plans to have around for a few more years. I really don't see anyone on our team that we would want to get rid of now, and could still get something for. Weaver (I believe) is the only free agent to be, and frankly, I'd trade him if the right offer came along, with or without playoff hopes this season. If another team is dumb enough to throw a Kazmir our way as happened last season at the deadline, sure, take him.

Regarding Dunn, I think he exactly fits the kind of player Depo (and let's face it, most of us here) dream about at night. But I'm not sure I see it getting done. As dumb as Cinci is (REALLY DUMB, if you're wondering how dumb), the cost for Dunn would be pretty high. I can't imagine Cinci not asking for one of our top pitching prospects, along with one of the non-Guzman/LaRoche infielders. Then again, when you've got a team like Cinci that is obviously f'd up, you need to explore the chance and see. And I'm sure that Depo will do just that.

But I think Kearns is far more likely. As much as Cinci seems to hate him, I'm sure they've gotten a few offers for him in the past week. I think he's got to get traded before too long, and they're just going to see who makes the best offer.

Just for the shear hilarity of it, I think Depo should start offerig everyone Loney, Jackson, and Harahan; just so we can laugh at the other team for taking our biggest "what could have been" prospects.

Lastly, when the hell did Jim Tracy forget about strategy? I seriously used to think he knew what he was doing. But this season has been unacceptable. And there's no explanation for it. I do wonder, however, if some of the moves (e.g. Drew bunting) were done just to spite Depo.

The only problem is, who do you replace JT with? Knowing that Davey Johnson isn't coming back (a guy can wish, can't he?), I'm not sure who my choice would be.

And while we're hiring new coaches, how about we add Rickey Henderson to the staff.

Re 87 - I've never thought of "whaling" as an outlet for our frustrations. Sounds fun, but isn't it banned by several international treaties?

Roger Angell has been around for a long time. Fans might been munching on blubber during his first visit to Ebbets Field.

I don't think we should jump the gun on Dunn. Is Bradley out for the season? It seems that many of us are assuming he is. He is very injury prone, but I think he'll be back. We should go after starting pitching.

Why wouldn't we consider trading one our top hitters (seems like we have a surplus of future ML 3B), top pitchers (a position of strength in the minors), and one of the young catchers for a guy like Dunn?

And if it were to happen prior to this offseason, that gives us a season and a half to negotiate a long term deal.

Yes, Bob the WS are winning with pitching and with a pitching staff that Kenny Williams put together all by himself and a much cheaper one then the Dodgers currently employ.
I don't know that McCarthy will be successful. That was not my point. My point was that their top prospect is already in AAA and ready to contribute now to their pennant run. Our top pitching prospect just got demoted. The others are 2 years away. McCarthy was one of the top 5 AL pitching prospects coming into 2005. He will struggle as any young pitcher will do.
I just find it amusing that so many people make fun of a strategy that is obviously working for the WS. They have starting pitching/relief pitching/power/speed. Kenny Williams should be getting plaudits for probably having the best record in baseball come the all-star game not ridicule from posters who follow a team that sucks.

Oh, c'mon, guys. From dictionary.com:

v. tr.

To strike or hit repeatedly and forcefully; thrash.

v. intr.

To attack vehemently: The poet whaled away at the critics.

Oh, and yeah, whales are protected (by CITES, I think), but they're under attack again by Japan, Norway, and some other country at the current conference.

94: I think the point is that it's not clear at all that the offensive strategy ("smartball") is "working." In fact, it might be the case that the team is winning IN SPITE of dumb offensive strategy, because their pitching is so good that they can afford to give up lots of outs. They're certainly scoring fewer runs than last year - someone above said 11% fewer. So I'd guess that they're winning despite smartball, not because of it. As the Dodgers well know, good pitching hides a lot of bad hitting and dumb managerial choices.

I never said walks were a bad thing. I think it is great that Drew walks a lot. That's why I say move him to #2 so he is on base for the guys behind him. It is hard to drive in runs with a walk, and that is the key role of the 3 and 4 hitters. Even a sacrifice fly will drive in a run when a walk wont.

As good as he is, Drew is no Frank Thomas (in his prime) or Barry Bonds. Both Bonds and Thomas had great eye's at the plate, but they also walked a ton because they got tons of intentional walks because of their overwhelming power. If Drew were faster, I would say bat him leadoff. Heck, he couldn't get caught steeling any more than Little Cesar has... bat him leadoff now.

Here's the squad the Dodgers should keep:

- Lowe
- Penny
- Thompson
- Drew
- Kent
- Bradley
- Izturis
- Gagne (not much of a choice here)

Everyone else should be expendable.

Back on June 5, Fearing Blue posted a list of the Dodgers' top 30 prospects and the fact that there won't be enough roster space for them all.

Some number of them need to be added to the 40 man roster, or risk being taken in the Rule 5 draft. So it looks like Depo will have to trade some of them before long.

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/189800.html
[see comment #258]

#3 and #4 hitters get most of the RBIs because of the way that managers build lineups. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Bonds has driven in fewer than 100 runs a few times because he was batting 3rd behind two horrible OBP guys. So he often came up with the bases empty, no different than if he'd been batting 1st. By contrast, when a lineup is loaded, even your #8 hitter can get a lot of RBIs. The sabermetric point is that lineup construction really doesn't matter that much. Over the course of a game and a season, team runs scored depend on the sum of the parts, not the ordering of them.

The one place I'd agree with mrboma, at least on the margin, in NL games, is that a L-R-L-R alternation MIGHT cost the other team some relief pitchers if they are managed by an obsessive matchup guy like LaRussa or Tracy. Why let the other guy's LOOGY pitch to 2 or 3 batters in a row, unless he stinks?

re: #99 - I guess you don't think much of the players we have....

I really don't have any beef with Kenny Williams. My beef was with the deification of Ozzie Guillen by the ESPN crew.

If the White Sox hoist up a World Series banner next April, I will dutifully tip my cap to Messrs. Williams and Guillen.

But I need to be convinced. And the fact that the Dodgers aren't playing well really isn't germane to how the White Sox are constructed.

you can't judge by the ESPN crew, for them everything anti-Dodger is a positive

...and Joe Morgan announces as if he is still wearing a Giant uniform...

Dunn can be had for prospects. Let me restate that, He can be had for our caliber of prospects. Dunn isn't going to sign with Cincy long term, Cincy wants cheap, great replacements. It works. No one is going to trade a #1 or # 2 starter anywhere(except maybe clemens for a rental)

why trade prospects for a # 3(at best) #4 or # 5 starting pitcher. we have no tradeable major league parts right n ow because of injury. If we can get a starter from Cincy or Colorado it will cost prospects but not our top guys.

I would give Cincy the pick of any position player(even guzman) and a pick of almost any pitcher(but I can't decide whom I would not trade. is not just one that stands out from the rest. Actually I would let thme have their pick of pitchers and hope they screw up in the their assesment.)
Cincy could have their pick of any position player and any pitcher for Dunn. he's that good. you might even have to throw in a low level prospect.
GObears mentioned Dunn and Pujols. that is a very fair comparsion. If Dunn is to be had, you do it.

i would give up guzman for dunn. guzman falls under the TTO players and we only hope he will become as good as dunn.

i would hold onto pitching prospects, they need a catching prospect. guzman and navarro for dunn.

or guzman and orenduff for dunn.

damn two and half more hours until gametime.

maybe guzman,navarro and dewitt. cincy might do that but because of all out great pitching prospects I would think they would hold out for one of them. At least I would

i would like to hold onto dewitt. hes a pure hitter, albiet he has been the streakiest player in the dodgers system this year. Depo had high praise of dewitt last year and i dont see him dealing dewitt just yet.

right now, orenduff would be a great canidate to sell high on. So would guzman, since his Ks worry the hell out of me because i feel he is boom or bust and nothing in between.

are there really rumors of Dunn being on the block, and the Dodgers being possibly involved? or is every one here just playing with themselves, so to speak....

re: #110 - speaking of boom or bust re: Guzman...how is that different from Dunn?

what do you mean?

103- Add to that the fact that the Dodgers were by no means blown out on Saturday and Sunday. They could have just as well won one or both of those games. A couple of timely hits on Saturday and the Dodgers have seven or eight runs. Even without that they went into the ninth with their closer on the mound and a one run lead. Sometimes saves are blown. Sunday we were within a spike's length and a pair of glasses of a win. If the ump doesn't miss that call we probably get out of the eighth with a lead or, at worst, a tie. I don't bring this up to make excuses, just to point out that the team isn't as bad as some seem to think. I don't think we looked any worse than the Sox in those two games. We are missing Bradley and a couple of bench players. That makes winning more difficult. If Werth doesn't improve we do need to find a better left fielder but I wouldn't sell the farm for one right now. I'm also okay with Perez/Edwards/Saenz at third for the time being. I would start looking for another starter and some bullpen help. I also feel more confident in DePo's ability to improve the team mid-season than past GMs. Please forgive the optimism.

you say Guzman's Ks scare you, that he is boom or bust...sounds like the report on Dunn to me...

re: #114 - your optimism is refreshing, it seems most here have already given up

re: 115

well for one, dunn has shown to be a "boom" in the big leagues where guzman still has a very high chance to be a bust.

my gut tells me to stay away from Dunn...

I think the people who want to see Dunn brought in certainly aren't giving up.

I want to win now, and in the future, and LA has a strong enough farm system for that to happen.

don't ask me why, and this is a reason I am not a GM, but its just a hunch...

my gut tells me to stay away from Dunn...

I don't know your gut well enough to trust it. Sorry.

as I get older, my gut becomes more pronounced, no matter how much I exercise

Bigger is not always smarter :-)

thank you very much....

Maybe your gut just doesn't want you to eat Adam Dunn. I'd agree with that. He's a big meal.

by the way, I'll ask again...are there rumors flying around linking Dunn and the Dodgers, or is that just talk here??

Just talk, as far as I know.

It is rumored that Cincy is considering trading one of Griffey, Dunn, Casey, Wily Mo Pena, or Kearns. Griffey is untradeable, Kearns is definitely on the "sell-low" side of his career, making it unwise to move him. Pena is still cheap, and they are apparently scared to move him and watch him explode elsewhere.

That leaves Dunn, who is about to get real expensive this offseason, and is quickly becoming a malcontent in Cincinnati.

I will echo an earlier statement - if Dunn is available and the Dodgers were not involved I would be stunned and outraged. Cincinnati is looking for a 3B, a C, and young pitching. Know any teams that have stud prospects at each of those positions, and have a preference for TTO-type players?

however, conventional wisdom outlets seem to have dunn possibly going to say, the orioles, angels, or cubs rather than the dodgers. that had better not be the case.

Move Izturis to the expendable list.

I haven't seen any shots here at Kenny Williams. I see them (and level them) at Joe Morgan, for being a dishonest hack. But let's do the math here:

Kenny Williams -- brings up Brandon McCarthy

Paul DePodesta -- leaves Scott Erickson on the roster, rotting like a dead skunk in July.

I know who I prefer at this point in my life.

here is an article about the Reds looking to shake things up. coaches are quoted as 'they have to do something..."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050620/SPT04/506200363/1071

#129

If you were the Reds would you trade Dunn to the Cubs? with the unbalanced schedule? That could cost a Gm his job after a year or two.

Dunn for Neifi!(TM) and Ryan Dempster

I know I more or less cursed this team from the beginning of the season. Yes, they impressed me in their first 14 games, but after that they have been as exciting to watch as Shelly Winters doing the breast stroke.

That being.......

My pre-season prediction for this team is pretty much accurate.