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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
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11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Cocktails?
2005-06-23 16:28
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Before I start talking about the Dodgers, I want to spend a moment in the Padres' sandals. They had a chance to bury the Dodgers, 8 1/2 games deep in the National League West. They let it get away. Will they take this as demoralizing? Or will this just be a blip for them?

I guess history will decide. Chemistry or no chemistry. Faint or strong of heart. It's always discovered in the autopsy, isn't it?

As for the guys in blue ...

Not to gross anyone out here, but there was an episode of Hill Street Blues in which public defender Joyce Davenport was representing a survivalist. He asked her, hypothetically, how she would stay alive in if her car ever broke down deep in the desert. Her reply was something along the lines of 1) sleep in the shade of her car's undercarriage during the day and walk only at night, to avoid sunburn and energy depletion, and 2) to provide herself with sustaining fluids, capture her own urine in a container.

The survivalist immediately asked Joyce to marry him.

I'm guessing you know where I'm going with this. Over the past 24 hours, the Dodgers have been surviving not on champagne, but another kind of bubbly altogether. And they'll travel through cover of darkness, toward home, much in need of a Velamint but otherwise enduring for at least one more day.

The thing is, they are drinking of themselves ... even though there's a fresh bottle of water or two right in front of them.

My Dad hated the Dodgers' trade with Florida last July. Didn't like it then, doesn't like it now. Thought Hee Seop Choi was worthless then, and doesn't have much higher of an opinion of him today.

Even he is stunned by what Jim Tracy is doing with Choi.

What are the arguments for playing Jason Phillips at first base today instead of Choi? Phillips' nifty defensive experience at the position? His history of mashing right-handed pitching?

No matter. Tracy will come up with some explanation. None of this will change his obvious hostility toward giving the team's most frequent home run hitter any serious playing time.

I'm putting this sentence in bold: Choi is a flawed player. We get it, okay?

But on the 2005 Dodgers, who isn't?

The manager who supposedly aims to puts Choi in a position to succeed has saved him to hit against Padres closer Trevor Hoffman and lefty reliever Chris Hammond, while sitting him against league-average righthanders like Woody Williams and Brian Lawrence.

In four games against the division leader, Choi had only seven at-bats. And yes, he went 0 for 7. But does that make him a worse bet than Jason Grabowski or Jason Repko? One week, Choi goes hitless. The next week, he hits seven homers in four days. Out here in the Mojave, Jim Tracy should not be turning his nose up at bottled Choi.

I swear, it makes me laugh now how transparent this all is.

Just in passing, we are also presented today with the latest fun-for-all bunt attempt. Down by three runs with six outs remaining, with a leadoff hitter who has grounded into 30 double plays in 2,230 career plate appearances, Cesar Izturis bunts.

In 2,230 career plate appearances to that point, Izturis had grounded into 30 double plays. And it's not like he's been a leadoff hitter all that time.

There's more to discuss, but I'm short of time.

Look, the Dodgers don't have a stellar crew out there these days. This seems mostly the fault of injuries, along with Paul DePodesta perhaps coming a player or so short in his offseason makeover of the team, since most of the moves to construct the current roster have turned out favorably.

DePodesta has his job to do - making sure that Derek Thompson, who provided three critical innings of shutout relief in his latest yeoman peformance - stays on the roster and Scott Erickson goes, for openers.

But Tracy has got to get out of the funk he is in. Because as resistant as I am to conspiracy theories, this one by Dodger Thoughts commenter GoBears is starting to seem bizarrely viable.

I imagine a sick game of chicken between Depo and Tracy. JT is daring Depo to fire him by deliberately minimizing the team's chances of winning. Depo is waiting for the media to turn on JT so that the firing is not seen as "unfair." Meanwhile, the team circles the bowl...

If Jim Tracy had made a habit in previous years of having leadoff hitters bunting while down by three in the eighth inning, and regularly benching one of his top power hitters, I think I would have remembered.

Update: Can I just say that despite the above complaints, winning feels so much better than losing.

Update 2: Steve Henson writes in the Times that Tracy disavowed Izturis' bunt ...

Izturis popped up trying to bunt for a hit — something Tracy told him wasn't smart with the team down three runs —and the runners advanced on Mike Edwards' groundout.

... and that Choi sat against Brian Lawrence today because of Lawrence's "repertoire of pitches he throws and his arm angles."

And ... Bill Shaikin has an entire feature exploring Tracy and Mike Scioscia's use of the bunt!

"The one thing that does get overlooked is to assume that, by putting the bunt on, it's going to be successful," DePodesta said. "That's not nearly the case. In those situations, you give up an out and don't advance the baserunner."

Under that standard, the Dodgers' execution has been poor this season. Click's analysis reveals a bunt play succeeds — runner moves up, batter out — about 60% of the time. The play fails — runner out, batter safe at first —about 25% of the time, with such outcomes as errors and double plays accounting for the other 15%.

The Angels have succeeded at a 75% rate last season and 72% this season, but the Dodgers have fallen from 77% to 57%. They rank sixth in the National League in attempts but 13th in successes.

But even DePodesta, who has not emphasized bunting ability in assembling his roster, does not discount the value of the sacrifice.

"If I play my home games in Coors Field, I'm probably not going to be doing a whole lot of bunting," he said. "If I play my home games in Petco Park or Dodger Stadium, it's probably going to be a more valuable tool."

Comments (383)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-06-23 16:32:47
1.   bokonon42
I strongly disagree. Hee Seop Choi is the second coming of Lou Gehrig. No flaws; Hee is the way, the truth, and the light.
2005-06-23 16:39:14
2.   patsweetpat
For Hee so loved the world, that Hee gave his only begotten son.
2005-06-23 16:39:51
3.   Jacob L
I just looked over at Ducksnorts to see the SD side of the story. Talk about a parallel universe. They had a game long discussion, complete with conspiracy theories, about why Xavier Nady can't crack the lineup.
2005-06-23 16:42:33
4.   patsweetpat
Rod Smart: He Hate Me
Jim Tracy: He Hate Hee
2005-06-23 16:44:24
5.   dzzrtRatt
Has any reporter for the local mainstream press ever asked Tracy if he doesn't like Choi and why? I know we should expect an anodyne answer, but it would be interesting to try to pick at this scab and see what comes up.

The other aspect of this that I can't believe won't eventually play into it: Los Angeles has more Koreans living here than anywhere on the planet, except Korea. There is a Korean media, members of which I'm sure are accredited to cover Dodger games. The Korean community knows how to make a fuss as much as any ethnic community in town. When are they going to start calling McCourt and his PR guru Bob Sitrick to ask whether Tracy's problems with Choi go beyond baseball?

2005-06-23 16:56:15
6.   rageon
I stopped trying to figure out what the hell is up with Tracy about a week ago. But the explanation about is as good as any I've seen; because it just defies logic for Tracy to be anti-Choi and pro-bunting with Depo being just the opposite.

One other question remains, and I'm serious about this. Who has more pull in the Dodgers front office? Yes, most GM's have the power to hire and fire most anyone, including the manager, and have the power to control player moves and the general direction of the team. But look to the NFL, where at least a third of the head coaches are basically the boss, and the GM is below him. Is it possible that McCourt is so fond of JT that Depo is left being his little bitch? I can't imagine Depo staying on board for even a day under that scheme, but at this point, if it came out that Tracy has been admitted to a mental hospital or was possessed by demons, I'm not sure I'd be all that surprised.

2005-06-23 17:16:52
7.   Fearing Blue
What kind of prospect package would it take to get Matt Lawton from Pittsburgh? He's in the last year of his contract, making $7.5 million.

He's not a difference maker, but he would give us some desperately needed depth, which could be enough to turn this division. Here are my points in favor of him:

1) He's a positive defender who can play all three outfield positions.

2) He's a left-handed batter with on-base ability, speed, and a little pop. He can platoon with Jayson Werth and fill in when Bradley / Drew are injured, which would be a huge upgrade over Lerepkwardski.

3) He shouldn't require a very large prospect outlay, since he'll be a FA after the season.

4) His MLVr (Marginal Lineup Value Rate) of .170 would rank 6th on our team behind Saenz, Perez, Kent, Drew, and Bradley.

2005-06-23 17:18:02
8.   jasonungar05
Jim Tracy should not be turning his nose up at bottled Choi.

I love It! Good stuff again Jon

2005-06-23 17:21:12
9.   Bob Timmermann
I will just point out that it's impossible to sustain yourself by just drinking your own urine. You'll run out of water eventually because you will always absorb some of the water back into your body.

Someone I know who went through a desert survival course for the Air Force told me that the current idea is that once you find yourself stranded is to drink as much of your water as you can before you go walking anywhere so you don't have to carry it around outside of you.

2005-06-23 17:21:23
10.   GoBears
7: Is Lawton really better than Ledee, esp. once you consider cost? Of course, there's no doubt he's better than Grabs or Repko, not to mention Werth. But Ledee should be back soon, which should help a bit. A Ledee/Werth platoon, along with Bradley and Drew doesn't seem horrible to me. I'd blow it up for Dunn or even Kearns, but I'm not sure Lawton is worth the cost unless you think we'll be missing Drew/Bradley/Ledee for a long time.
2005-06-23 17:25:15
11.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
Jon, I believe you are correct in the game of chicken that J.T. and DePo are playing.

I believe J.T. despises DePo and his Ivy League theories. DePo and J.T. are polar opposites at best. J.T. has played the game, and seems to be old school fundamentally. DePo just the opposite.

I believe J.T. is still bitter over the drastic roster changes that DePo has made since taking over. LoDuca was J.T.'s guy.
J.T.'s way of getting back at DePo is not playing Choi at all.

2005-06-23 17:27:47
12.   Jon Weisman
Bob - so how much time might the urine buy you? Remember, this is Joyce Davenport we're talking about. I bet she's a good walker.

SSSJ - just to reiterate, the game of chicken wasn't my theory, but that of GoBears.

2005-06-23 17:30:52
13.   dzzrtRatt
The thing I don't get, though, is why Tracy would ignore the fans? If he's in a war with DePo, as posts here suggest, wouldn't he want the fans on his side? The fans aren't yelling for anyone but Choi.

Also, if Tracy really hated DePo, what's Grabowski doing out there all the time?

This theory is not working for me. Tracy must have a thing against Choi himself, not as a proxy for DePo.

2005-06-23 17:30:54
14.   Bob Timmermann
I really don't want to know how much time the urine will buy me.

I will ask Moises Alou this question.

Kevin Costner's character in "Waterworld" lives on his own urine which he runs through a distiller to take it out the impurities. He'd have nothing left.

And apparently that distilling machine can't take the salt out of the ocean water, but can make his urine taste like fresh water.

I really need to stop looking for plot holes in "Waterworld".

2005-06-23 17:33:25
15.   Fearing Blue
#10: Yes, Lawton is strictly better than Ledee. He's a much better hitter (.170 MLVr vs. .065 MLVr), better baserunner (71% success rate vs. 66% success rate on many more attempts), and a better fielder (above average vs. slightly below average). Lawton would be a good candidate to displace Izturis as our leadoff hitter.

To give you a frame of reference on MLVr, Bradley is currently at .185 MLVr for the season. Putting up a .170 MLVr is very good. Lawton and Ledee are both playing above their mean BP projections. But, those projections gave Lawton a much better chance to exceed his projection and the projections still have Lawton ~.1 MLVr higher than Ledee.

2005-06-23 17:37:44
16.   Fearing Blue
#13: My guess is that Tracy is still harboring animosity over the loss of his favorite player, LoDuca. Tracy even went so far as to pick up LoDuca's uniform number after "The Trade". Perhaps Choi is the target of this ire.
2005-06-23 17:40:15
17.   jasonungar05
whatever hitter out there who for his career and this year is hitting well with RISP..just go get him. I can care less where he plays. The only secure spots on this roster are 2b and SS
2005-06-23 17:40:17
18.   dzzrtRatt
On Lawton and every other trade, we have to resign ourselves to the fact that, unless we're willing to take on a huge salary obligation, we're going to overpay in prospects for almost anyone we go after. Too many teams will still be in contention 30 days from now, and they'll play "can you top this" with teams like the Pirates. Lawton in his walk year is ideally worth maybe one decent, not great, prospect. But if we really want him, we'll probably have to burp up more, because otherwise someone else will.

Ditto everyone else that's been suggested for the past month. The price on Roy Oswalt would be astronomical, for example. The chances that we will overpay for a less-than-impactful player are pretty high.

2005-06-23 17:40:31
19.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
13- Grabs is out there because he has no other options. J.T. will come up with any excuse not to play Choi.

Pretty soon we will see Robles getting spot starts at first.

2005-06-23 17:43:02
20.   dzzrtRatt
#16 I guess this kind of bizarre behavior is tolerated in baseball. I can't think of another high-paying profession where a manager could decide to hurt an innocent third party's career because he's mad at his boss, and get away with it for long. Unless the manager was a super performer, which Tracy is not.

If you can prove this is what and why Tracy's sitting Choi, then I'd say fire him on GP.

2005-06-23 17:47:18
21.   gvette
It's hard to concentrate on baseball when the subject turns to urine, Moises Alou's special hand treatment, and Waterworld.

Maybe, despite statistical evidence to the contrary, Tracy simply isn't as comfortable with Choi's skill set as those who post on this site. It's not the first time that a manager lacks confidence in a young player, and won't be the last.

2005-06-23 17:48:55
22.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
21- When that young player is our greatest home run threat, you had better find a way to get comfortable with him.
2005-06-23 17:53:24
23.   Steve
One day and Alou is already calling Alex Sanchez a great situational hitter (in so many words).

Ironically, you might see Tracy bunt less now that Edwards finally got one down. Once the first twenty failed, he had to get one for Plaschkers to point to in their next columns and Harold Reynolds to talk about on Baseball Tonight. It's likely even the great Steve Henson will turn rapturous prose tomorrow over it. Tracy will have his next ten years of uncritical goodwill in the bank, and move on from there.

2005-06-23 18:08:17
24.   Fearing Blue
#18: Well, at $7.5 million this year he is already overpaid. We certainly have the ability to take on all of his remaining salary. I think we could get him for two decent prospects or one good, but not great, prospect.
2005-06-23 18:22:46
25.   Langhorne
If you are stranded in the desert dig a small hole in the ground, preferably somewhere that will be shaded in the morning. Put a cup in the hole. Cover the hole with plastic or nylon material. Anchor the material around the edges with rocks or dirt. Put a small rock on the center of the material to make it concave. Any moisture in the air will condense on the inside of the material and drip into the cup.

If Tracy's moves are out of spite, in any way, toward any person, he should be fired immediately. He's not a professional. If he doesn't think Choi is good enough to play I can accept that. I have doubts about Choi, too. But with the injuries and lack of depth on the team right now we don't have the luxury of sitting Choi in favor of Rose or Robles. That is the definition of mismanagement.

2005-06-23 18:27:13
26.   Linkmeister
Rather than ask "whatever happened to Veronica Hamel, I thought I'd look her up at Jon's other employer: http://tinyurl.com/8szxu

Huh. Lots of TV movies I've never heard of.

Personally I'm completely mystified by Tracy's personnel management. Choi should go see Hamel's agent; at least she's continually getting work.

2005-06-23 18:38:31
27.   Robert Fiore
There's basically two ways of following a ballclub. One, when the team is a bona fide contender, is where you have a daily engagement with the pennant race and track every win and loss against your rivals. The other, when the team is not, is where you abandon expectations and just hope to see the team win the particular game you're paying attention to. Sometimes you can start out a season one way and then wind up going the other. Right now it looks like the wheels have definitively come off. There's still time to put them back on but that doesn't really seem the way you bet. To the question of whether the glass is half empty or half full I would say that it's an eight ounce glass with four ounces of liquid in it.

The discussion of Choi brings to mind Kenny Landreaux: For two months every year he'd turn into Ted Williams, but to get those two months you'd have to put up with him for the other four.

2005-06-23 18:44:28
28.   gvette
Don't know if I can stomach both a discussion of the properties of urine, and Kenny Landreaux in the same thread.

On the other hand, I really hope that sometime in his ML career Thompson gets a win, just so he won't have to go through life cursing Erickson for blowing his best chance at one.

2005-06-23 19:05:54
29.   wookie642
Not sure if someone mentioned this before, but I remember watching a post-game interview with Jim Tracy after Choi had a great game (one of the Twins games). For some reason, Tracy wouldn't refer to Choi by name, only calling him our "first baseman". I thought it was weird that he wouldn't refer to him by name, especially since Choi basically won the game singlehandedly (and he referred to all the other plays by their name, not their position). He also seemed pretty reluctant to praise Choi.

I remember thinking at the time, either Tracy can't pronounce Choi's name or he doesn't like HSC. Looks like it's the second.

2005-06-23 19:19:22
30.   stubbs
Am I the only one who thinks it would be funny if tracy only put choi in against lefties? This might be the beginning of the end for JT...its a shame, he has done a solid job the last few years.

By the way Hee-Suck is at a .315oba clip.

2005-06-23 19:26:15
31.   Steve
And Jason Phillips is at .312. So?
2005-06-23 19:33:32
32.   LAT
Mel Gibson is a New York taxi driver, who has a strange habit. He makes complicated scenarios of conspiracies and publishes them to the Internet.

Sound familiar?

Come on guys. I don't know why Tracy doesn't use Choi, but like Tracy or not he has been a stand-up man since we have been watching him. Tanking the team is not something he would do. Even if it were, he is too boring to think of it. Moreover, he knew what he was getting when he resigned. He knew Choi was going to be an integral part of Depo's plan for the next three years. Furthermore, for reasons I can't follow, Tracy likes some of Depo's other projects (read: Grabs and Werth). So I doubt its about Depo. If Tracy were intentionally undermining the team he would be drummed out of baseball faster than people run on Jason Phillips. Look, none of us know why he won't give Choi a shot and it would be nice if any of the gutless reporters for the Times asked him. But he is not committing professional suicide to spite Choi or Depo.

2005-06-23 19:34:05
33.   stubbs
Phillips is a catcher and 8 hitter...see the difference?
2005-06-23 19:38:01
34.   Marty
I can't believe someone mentioned Ken Landreaux. As long as he was on the team any botched play in the outfield was characterized as being "Landreauxed". I hated him.
2005-06-23 19:40:27
35.   Steve
Not if Phillips is going to play first base and replace Choi.

Stop reciting Vic-The-Brick biases and start thinking.

2005-06-23 19:42:37
36.   Bob Timmermann
Seeing the name Stubbs here makes me think of Franklin.

His first five years with the Dodgers he had an OBP under .300. Then in 1989 in 69 games, he puts up a .387 OBP playing as the prototype for Jason Grabowski (lefthanded OF-1B-PH).

And in 1990 he gets traded to Houston for a guy named Terry Wells.

But I wonder why he was traded? Were the Dodgers so sure that Eddie Murray was going to have a better year in 1990 than 1989? He did, but I seem to have forgotten just why Franklin got sent packing.

2005-06-23 19:48:20
37.   Steve
Imagine playing for six years, and you become known as the prototype for Jason Grabowski.
2005-06-23 19:49:45
38.   regfairfield
Despite being four at the time, for some reason I specifically remember Franklin Stubbs sucking.

Odd how that works.

2005-06-23 19:51:19
39.   Marty
You could have been an embryo and known Franklin Stubbs was crap. Stubbs, Ashley and Brock were the trifecta.
2005-06-23 19:52:52
40.   Bob Timmermann
Answering my own question, Murray had the first base job guaranteed and Stubbs had knee surgery after the 1988 season. He asked for a trade during the winter meetings in December of 1989 and almost went to Boston in a deal for Ellis Burks. But the Dodgers wouldn't deal John Wetteland.

I got the exquisite pleasure of reading a 16-year old Plaschke story about the Dodgers problems. He said the 1990 Astros were going to be improved because they added Bill Gullickson and Ken Oberkfell.

He briefly mentioned that the Reds improved by adding Randy Myers.

Plaschke advocated making Mike Munoz the closer in 1990.

2005-06-23 19:52:53
41.   Steve
Who was the vaunted rookie who came up and went 0 for a billion? Gonzalez or something like that?
2005-06-23 19:52:57
42.   adg
What about Duncan? Or Shelby? We're talking about the Dodgers of my first Topps card set here....
2005-06-23 19:56:03
43.   molokai
Ditto # 32
Tracy for whatever reason feels the Dodger's have a better chance to win with the lineup he uses based on the talent he has. It is that simple and any other theory is poppycock and an insult to JT's integrity. He may be an idiot these days but to think there is an ulterior motive should be left for talk shows and not this site. JMO
2005-06-23 19:56:08
44.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers have had a lot of vaunted rookies who couldn't hit.

You need to be more specific. Especially when it comes to the 1980s and 1990s

Jose Gonzalez was 20 for 93 in 1986. 3 for 16 in 1987 and 2 for 24 in 1988. But in 1989 he was 70 for 261.

He eventually got traded to Pittsburgh for ...

Mitch Webster

2005-06-23 19:56:49
45.   Steve
Sitting here thinking about it, I think that Mariano Duncan was the first Dodger I was old enough to really, truly hate.
2005-06-23 19:58:03
46.   Steve
I think it's Jose -- he was in the same era as Brock and Stubbs, so that's what made me think of him.
2005-06-23 20:01:04
47.   stubbs
i was named after Franklin, or at least my handle was.
2005-06-23 20:01:50
48.   Bob Timmermann
You know when Duncan broke in, he was all the rage for a while.

The Dodgers were thinking of making him Steve Sax's replacement at second base in 1989, but instead the Dodgers signed Willie Randolph. But he wasn't the first or second choice. The first choice was Ron Oester and Wally Backman was the second option.

Oester wanted to stay in Cincinnati and the Dodgers wouldn't trade Braulio Castillo for Backman.

2005-06-23 20:03:34
49.   Bob Timmermann
I remember reading an article about Greg Maddux and it was Franklin Stubbs who had the best career numbers against him of any player in the majors.

Since Franklin liked to swing at everything, I suppose it was hard for Maddux to develop a strategy for pitching to him.

2005-06-23 20:09:11
50.   Steve
Rumors flew for awhile that Jon Weisman was a psuedonym for Franklin Stubbs. Was that theory ever disproven?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-06-23 20:15:13
51.   Jon Weisman
Quick update in this post above re: bunt/Choi.
2005-06-23 20:15:57
52.   Midwest Blue
Jon and Bob:

I would direct you to a very good book entitled "The Devil's Highway" (2004) by Luis Urrea (no pun, I swear). Not only is it an exellent description of the current problem of immigrants crossing the dangerous US desert border but it also has a passage that describes what happens when you drink your own urine.

Urrea describes about seven stages of colors that you go through as more and more of the water is absorbed and eventually what liquid you have left is dark brown to black. Then you go into hyperthermia and cook alive.

Also 26, I don't think that's the Veronica Hamel we were thinking of. Her TV-ography does not list ANY Hill Street Blues appearances. And she would be 63 now.

Now back to baseball...

2005-06-23 20:15:57
53.   Jon Weisman
50 - Guilty until proven innocent, huh?
2005-06-23 20:16:04
54.   Dodgerkid
Bob you are incorrect. You could distill urine into water. The human body is not perfect and does not completely remove every particle of water from liquid that is drunk. If it did you would not urinate. Sorry but Waterworld works.
2005-06-23 20:17:49
55.   Midwest Blue
Dodgerkid, I can reprint the passage if you like.
2005-06-23 20:18:02
56.   Marty
Arm angles? What's next? Planet alignment? Feng Shui?
2005-06-23 20:18:25
57.   gvette
Stubbs has a World Series ring, while HOFers like Ernie Banks don't. I think he was a big homerun hitter in college, which is why the Dodgers drafted him high.

Stubbs did hit 20+ HRs one year for the Dodgers, which makes him better than Jose Gonzalez, Billy Ashley, Braulio Castillo,and Karim Garcia, but on a par with Greg Brock.

2005-06-23 20:20:08
58.   Bob Timmermann
The Waterworld guy drinks ONLY his own urine. He doesn't seem to drink anything else.

You'll run out.

2005-06-23 20:21:16
59.   GoBears
But he is not committing professional suicide to spite Choi or Depo.

Not that I really believe the conspiracy theory that I invented and Jon quoted, but see, LAT's response kinda makes my point. I don't think that anything would be professional suicide for JT, unless he admitted that he was tanking. I think that if the Dodgers fire him, he'll get another job immediately. Maybe, the best job of all from his perspective - Cincy. He's got a good enough reputation, somewhat deserved, that unless he's caught red-handed disrespecting the game (which would make him unhireable for about a year), he'd land on his feet.

Do I really believe he's trying to lose? No. But I believe that he's very stubborn, and determined to win or lose his way.

The same thing happened with Choi last year. He played quite a bit for a while, then less and less, and then not at all. For whatever reason, I think Tracy hates Choi as a player. In a sense, I'm impressed that he's ballsy enough to bench him so soon after that Homer-fest he produced only 2 weeks ago.

2005-06-23 20:21:18
60.   Steve
I would completely absolve Plaschke of all prior sins if he would write, "Arm angles is a very stupid reason to bench Choi, indeed."

If Tracy can't get it across to Izturis that he shouldn't be bunting there, particularly when Izturis just did the same thing last week with the same destructive results, then I fail to see why Tracy is of any use at all.

Or he could just be hanging Izturis out to dry.

2005-06-23 20:21:29
61.   Dodgerkid
Ok I'm getting into super nerd territory here, but remember he did go to the island city to restock. There he probably purchased water, but to extend that also collected his own urine for drinking.
2005-06-23 20:21:55
62.   Marty
And whatever you do, don't eat asparagus before drinking your own urine.
2005-06-23 20:21:57
63.   Jon Weisman
But wait - there's more above! An entire feature on bunting ...
2005-06-23 20:25:12
64.   Steve
Haha! Coors Field. Who would bunt there? Only a moron would bunt at Coors Field.
2005-06-23 20:26:31
65.   Bob Timmermann
So the urine was just a stopgap measure? What did he do if he ran into Moises Alou?

The other big problem of "Waterworld" is that even if the polar ice caps melt completely there wouldn't be enough water to cover just about all of the land on earth.

Granted, I wouldn't want to own beachfront property in that eventuality.

2005-06-23 20:29:07
66.   FirstMohican
Want to know why Olmedo's playing time recently has dwarfed Choi's?

Dodgers.com: "He came in this morning and said he felt 'sexy' and we went from there," manager Jim Tracy said of Saenz...

2005-06-23 20:29:19
67.   Steve
One more:

Joe Morgan -- I mean Maddon:

"Oakland's pitching allowed that concept to work. The Big Three allowed that concept to work."

One guess as to the Major League leader in Team ERA in 2005. Go ahead. Guess. It's a hard one.

So...dishonest...it...should...be...criminal

2005-06-23 20:29:20
68.   Bob Timmermann
"If I play my home games in Coors Field, I'm probably not going to be doing a whole lot of bunting," he said. "If I play my home games in Petco Park or Dodger Stadium, it's probably going to be a more valuable tool."

Sacrifices in 2005:
Colorado 34
Los Angeles 26
San Diego 25

The Texas Rangers have 2.

2005-06-23 20:31:01
69.   Steve
I FOUND MY GUY!

HIRE BUCK SHOWALTER!

2005-06-23 20:33:37
70.   GoBears
Sold! Except that Jeff Kent would probably punch him out the first time Showalter fined him for tying his shoelaces incorrectly.
2005-06-23 20:35:25
71.   Bob Timmermann
In the Choi story,

* General Manager Paul DePodesta met with Tracy after the game, but emerged without a decision on whether to shore up the bench by calling up outfielder Cody Ross from triple A and sending down a pitcher, either Franquelis Osoria or Derek Thompson.

Another option would be to release veteran Scott Erickson, but there was no indication that would happen today.*

Hmmmmm........
Hmmmmm........

Would DePodesta release Erickson if I promised to drink my own urine in front of him?

2005-06-23 20:36:01
72.   Marty
I think Showalter is trying to figure out who stole the strawberries right now.
2005-06-23 20:38:30
73.   Steve
Heck, if it would get Erickson released, I'd drink Bob's urine.
2005-06-23 20:38:36
74.   Bob Timmermann
I think Showalter is trying to figure out where his offense went.

The Rangers are also last in Sacrifice Flies. They just don't have productive outs in Texas.

The two sacrifices are from Rod Barajas and Mark DeRosa.

The Rangers are also third in the majors in runs scored.

2005-06-23 20:40:05
75.   Steve
But it's their pitching that makes it work. You know, Pedro Astacio, Ryan Drese, Chan Ho Park, ???
2005-06-23 20:41:08
76.   Jon Weisman
Is it me, or will the urine thread go down in the annals of DT history?
2005-06-23 20:41:21
77.   Steve
70 -- I have no interest in whether the players get along with their manager. None. When players like their manager, Shawn Green bats cleanup forever and Jason Grabowski gets way too many at-bats.
2005-06-23 20:43:48
78.   Marty
Jon, the urine thread actually started last night. We seem to like it...
2005-06-23 20:45:27
79.   Steve
I wonder what Buck's old friends at ESPN think about his two sacrifices?
2005-06-23 20:45:36
80.   Bob Timmermann
Marty made asparagus. It's his fault.
2005-06-23 20:47:08
81.   Midwest Blue
Bob,

You could bet that you could drink your urine up to seven times in a row. Maybe you could get DePo to DFA somebody different every time: Erickson, Grabowski, Robles, Repko, and Choi (just kidding!!)

2005-06-23 20:47:14
82.   regfairfield
They probably lead to at least four very important runs.

To further the small ball hatred, the number of runs that the White Sox have produced because of small ball that wouldn't have scored otherwise: 15.

2005-06-23 20:48:11
83.   Steve
81 -- Brings new meaning to the term "drinking game"
2005-06-23 20:51:34
84.   Bob Timmermann
The Rangers had 23 and 24 sacrifices in his first two years in Texas.

Showalter's Yankees team always had at least 20 sacrifices.

One year his Diamondbacks team had 71!

I can't find the totals for any Japanese team on an English language source. Those figures would make Steve vomit.

2005-06-23 20:52:36
85.   Bob Timmermann
82,
How is that total for the White Sox calculated?
2005-06-23 20:54:49
86.   regfairfield
By me going through all of the White Sox games this season and seeing exactly how all of their runs scored.
2005-06-23 20:59:40
87.   Midwest Blue
Spurs. Champions. Pfrrrp.
2005-06-23 21:01:02
88.   Bob Timmermann
86,
But how can you say the run wouldn't have scored without a bunt or stolen base? Are you just assuming that every other event in the inning would have happened in the exact same way? If so, that's a big assumption.

If the White Sox give up an out, that means that there is one fewer batter who has a chance to come up and get an extra base hit or home run.

2005-06-23 21:02:32
89.   Jon Weisman
Dodger Thoughts, 8/25/03:

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/10706

2005-06-23 21:04:26
90.   regfairfield
88 - Yeah, it's a big assumption, I make no claims to the exact statistical accuracy of it. However, the amount of times the White Sox bunt and then hit a home run is strangely high.

From looking up all of these stats, I learned that the White Sox benifit from extremly timely hitting.

2005-06-23 21:07:18
91.   Mark
That update from the Times makes me think that somebody read http://buntjimtracy.com !
2005-06-23 21:07:19
92.   Bob Timmermann
I found it interesting that the White Sox have not hit a home run in an inning with a sacrifice and the White Sox have hit a lot of homers.
2005-06-23 21:11:04
93.   regfairfield
92 - Where'd you read that?
2005-06-23 21:13:47
94.   LAT
#59 Bears. I agree JT wants to win or lose his way. But I think that's true of most managers. And not that it matters, but I think it should be that way.

As for Choi last year--he sucked. He showed up under difficult circumstance but failed to produce and failed badly. JT was justified last year. This year Choi has shown his value. For some reason JT just doesn't see it. The question is why doesn't he see it?

Another thing that is apparent to everyone but JT is that Choi is a streak hitter. A streak hitter cannot come off the bench. Its like getting hot at the craps table. When it comes you got to play it out. Then it goes for a while. You can't throw the dice one time to get hot.

Whatever the reason, I cannot believe it has anything to do with JT's integrity.

2005-06-23 21:15:42
95.   LAT
#72 Marty, last week didn't we determine that the strwberries were dumped during fire fall at Glacier Point?
2005-06-23 21:19:42
96.   LAT
#62 Marty, its ok to drink you own urine after eating aspargus if you don't have the gene that allows you to smell it.

Did I get that right, Bob?

2005-06-23 21:20:22
97.   rageon
Did Tracy really cite "0 for 5" and "arm angles" as the reason not to play Choi? Wow

I've NEVER heard JT make excuses THAT lame as to why someone didn't play. It's quite obvious that he wants to come up with any reason he can in order for him to bench Choi.

After Tracy and Depo supposedly had a meeting, I think it would be interesting if we see Choi play a bunch of games in a row.

As far as the article on bunting goes, I can't be the only one who has a problem with Depo NOT interfering with game management? The GM and Manager HAVE to be on the same page, otherwise you've got what we currently have...a manager asking players to do things they can't do. There needs to be a consistent plan throughout the organization, and right now, I certainly don't see that.

2005-06-23 21:23:03
98.   Bob Timmermann
I went through all the innings where the Sox sacrificed too!
2005-06-23 21:26:33
99.   Steve
My new theory is that McCourt's other kid is being groomed to succeed JT when JT bolts for the Reds.
2005-06-23 21:30:35
100.   Bob Timmermann
http://tinyurl.com/bnpl4
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-06-23 21:31:20
101.   GoBears
94: I didn't mean to imply anything about Tracy's integrity as a man. I don't have any reason to believe he's a bad person (or a good person, though I think we'd all like to think that absent evidence to the contrary). But stubbornly insisting on doing it your way, despite evidence that it's not working, is symptomatic of being a bad manager, at least for this team. For him to bench Choi capriciously is either the result of stubbornness or stupidity. Take your pick. Either way, he's not doing the team any favors.

Obviously, it's not just the Choi thing. There is plenty of other evidence this season that Tracy, whether willfully or not, is not managing well, at least during games. At this point, the way the "smartball" vs. "moneyball" battle is going in MLB, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Tracy and DePo are in opposite camps, and that Tracy is bound and determined not to give in. I really don't think he has much to lose, other than his CURRENT job, because his view (and Morgan's) is still in the majority in MLB, and he'd get another job easily.

I don't think he's dishonest. And, since he never seemed dumb to me before this season, I don't think he's dumb. I think he's stubborn and unwilling to learn. That's not inconsistent with the notion that he's "daring Depo to fire him." I'm sure he's happy about these two wins - he feels vindicated (wrongly so). But he's got to go.

I'll be really surprised if Tracy is fired before the season ends, but I'll be more surprised if he's the manager next year.

2005-06-23 21:32:41
102.   LAT
#97 I read Jon's exerpt from the article to imply Depo believed bunting was ok in a place like DS. Seemed to me like they were on the same page about that.

#99 Steve, good point, except I heard they were grooming him to be a position player. Its probably both.

2005-06-23 21:36:13
103.   Steve
102 -- I have to admit, if I'm DePodesta, I don't tell the LA Times what I really think about anything. Part of the problem of having them around is they have the Dodgers newsmakers so thoroughly walled in that candidness is not an option.
2005-06-23 21:37:23
104.   bokonon42
100- I think Tracy has gotten to you; linking to a study with sample sizes of 115 and 103? And anyway, what's this survey business? I want the urine sniffers CAT scanned.
2005-06-23 21:39:50
105.   Bob Timmermann
I have had my brain CAT scanned twice. Should I ask for the results to be sent to you?
2005-06-23 21:46:25
106.   bokonon42
105-Were you sniffing urine at the time? I was accusing the "I don't smell a thing" Brit urine sniffers of lying.

Two CAT scans doesn't sound like a happy time. Are you doing alright?

2005-06-23 21:51:37
107.   Bob Timmermann
"CAT Scans of Timmermann's Head Shows Nothing"
2005-06-23 22:17:56
108.   LAT
The extra-curricular week in review:

Tues: Porn day and would you sleep with Marilyn Manson.

Wed: PETA Causes: Stop eating turtle eggs for virility.

Today: Waterworld and can you smell your own asparagus laced urine when drinking it.

I shudder to think what tomorrow will bring. It can't get any weirder. Can it?

2005-06-23 22:25:10
109.   Fearing Blue
Chad Billingsley just pitched his first innings in relief in Jacksonville (2 IP; 1 H; 0 R/ER; 0 K). Unfortunately, Justin Orenduff didn't do as well starting his first game in Jacksonville (3.1 IP; 5 H; 7 R/ER; 3 BB; 0 K), and the Suns lost 7 - 6.

Also, somewhat oddly, the best hitter on the team is a non-prospect named Tydus Meadows. A 27 year old left-handed outfielder, he is 4th in the league in OBP (.426) and 6th in the league in slugging (.556). His career OPS of .877 is decent, but he's never played above AA. I believe we signed him as a minor-league free agent.

Just looking through the Southern League offensive leaders helped me realize how good Delmon Young is. He's leading the league in slugging (.587) at 19 years old. Nobody else in the top 5 is under 24. The next closest youngster is Felix Pie, who at 20 years old is 7th in the league with a .554 slugging.

2005-06-23 22:33:26
110.   Bob Timmermann
That should be:
CAT Scans of Timmermann's Head Show Nothing.

No subject-verb agreement there.

2005-06-23 22:39:38
111.   Jim Hitchcock
97, 98 - Previous thread.

Sorry, Icaros and Vishal, internet went kaplooie. Vinny was talking about Sunday day games at Wrigley being preceeded by a performance by afull orchestra with male and female singers. Talked about how he loved it.

Doubt very much the explanation was worth the wait :)

2005-06-23 22:52:13
112.   Linkmeister
#52, take a look at the URL I posted. Hamel most certainly did play Joyce Davenport in "Hill Street." Go down the list to 1981.

That was the last television show I religiously watched every week until "Lost" this year.

2005-06-23 23:09:32
113.   Vishal
#111
i appreciate it anyway, jim. i like closure :)

#108
that's what an 8-game losing streak will do

#69
what about orel? the fans wouldn't mind losing tracy if we brought in a dodger legend, and hopefully he's learning how not to bunt from showalter. and since he would be a first-time manager, he wouldn't have his own way of doing things, so maybe depodesta could sit him down and sell his philosophy to him. hershiser seems like a smart fellow. and maybe since he was a victim of pitcher abuse himself, he'll know when to bring out the hook. though maybe not, since he was kind of a willing victim.

2005-06-23 23:10:54
114.   Jim Hitchcock
Oh, yeah, it was Veronica Hamel all right. And no one who watched the show would ever forget her.

Little did I know she played Lily Munster in a Munsters remake, though.

2005-06-23 23:11:34
115.   Xeifrank
Perhaps JT's handling of Choi should be reported to the teams EEO department.
vr, Xei
2005-06-23 23:11:35
116.   Xeifrank
Perhaps JT's handling of Choi should be reported to the teams EEO department.
vr, Xei
2005-06-23 23:12:53
117.   Xeifrank
Out of town for 8 days = Dodgers 8 game losing streak.

Back in town for 2 days = Dodgers 2 game winning streak.

No more vacations planned until October.

vr, Xei

2005-06-23 23:36:08
118.   Rob M
OMG! Orel Freaking Hershiser!!

There couldn't be a more perfect candidate for sabermetric manager. Of course, I don't really know how he thinks, but I get the feeling that he could get with the program...

2005-06-24 07:06:45
119.   Sam DC
When I said the thread was titled "cocktails," I really had no idea what I was getting into.

Anyhow, did I see correctly that the guy who wrote the urine-effects (among other things) book was named "Urrea"?

2005-06-24 07:07:14
120.   Sam DC
grrr. . . "'saw' the thread was titled"
2005-06-24 07:58:41
121.   dzzrtRatt
This morning's LA Times sports section should be renamed something like, "We'll show YOU, you smartypants Dodger Thoughts people!"

-- A story defending the bunt, specifically focusing on Jim Tracy, Paul DePodesta and Mike Scioscia and their various favorable opinions of it.

-- An even one-line-ier than usual column about J.D. Drew that refers to his inability to "holler" as proof that his signing was a mistake. After taking several gratutious shots at "Stratomatic" DePodesta, he finally gets him to admit "chemistry is crucial." (DePodesta should ask to hear the tape.)

-- Gives Tracy a forum to defend benching Choi yesterday because of Lawrence's "repertoire of pitches and arm angles." In the same few paragraphs, Tracy also gets to defend leaving Perez on the bench "in case we got an infielder hurt later in the game."

Jon and friends, the game is on! The Times is clearly determining its editorial policy with respect to the Dodger and baseball generally on answering what they read here. It's a battle for circulation, in which we have nothing at stake, and the Times has everything! We've got the advantage! We've got the lineup! We've even got the chemistry! Fight on!

2005-06-24 08:13:13
122.   Bob Timmermann
Turns out it is very hard to find sacrifice totals for Japanese baseball. I asked a friend in Japan.

He found out the figures through June 23 for the Pacific League only, which uses a DH.

G Plate Appearances AB SH
Lotte 70 2731 2415 33
SB 73 2784 2490 39
Seibu 73 2797 2484 35
Orix 71 2753 2447 46
Nippon Ham 70 2669 2426 18
Rakuten 71 2570 2324 36

I can't figure out how to columns here (or really anywhere, columns are my biggest obstacle in life), but they most is 46 sacrifices in 71 and the fewest is 18 in 70 games.

The first place team, Lotte, managed by Bobby Valentine has 33 in 70 games.

2005-06-24 08:28:40
123.   SMY
That Plaschke column is so far beyond stupid, I think we need to invent a new word to describe it. I didn't see much hollering out of Shawn Green the past couple of seasons. Or hitting, or driving runs, or walking, or playing defense. And he only cost $5 million MORE!
2005-06-24 08:49:20
124.   Howard Fox
I, for maybe the first time in years, agree with what Plaschke had to say today.

I consider Drew to be DePo's first mistake in judgment. He is a good player, don't get me wrong, but not an $11mm player, not a guy your build your offense around, and not a guy you build your defense around.

I can't believe there was ever the slightest discussion about Bradley or Drew in center!

And now, Mr Excitement is out for who knows how long with a boo boo in his knee? I fear the stretches of time out of the lineup and just beginning for him.

Who will drive in the runs now? And who will deliver the key hits now? Oh wait, he hasn't done that yet....oh, never mind...

2005-06-24 08:53:38
125.   db1022
#124 - I'm surprised there is so much negative talk about Drew's defense. The guy is a superb CFer, and I really think the Dodgers best OF alignment is Drew in center, Bradley in right. It's hard to go wrong either way though.
2005-06-24 09:01:46
126.   scareduck
Re today's topic: as a former friend used to say, better to be pissed off than pissed on. Does that explain Kent's outburst on Wednesday?
2005-06-24 09:05:49
127.   Steve
How does Plaschke know what's going on in the locker room, unless he's looking in the showers through a peephole?
2005-06-24 09:31:29
128.   Howard Fox
he's looking in the showers thru a peephole?
2005-06-24 09:33:10
129.   Jon Weisman
Most perplexing sentence in the column:

"He was the double sixes in Paul DePodesta's giant game of Strat-O-Matic, the scroll wheel on his baseball iPod."

The first part of this makes no sense, since 1) you use three dice in Strat, and 2) double-sixes in Strat on two of the dice has nothing to do with the ideal, which is the analogy Plaschke is trying to make. In fact, it's quite the opposite - the possibility of a rare, fluky event.

The second part of this is completely inscrutable to me, and not because I don't know what an iPod is.

As far as whether Drew is an $11 million player - well, in today's market, like it or not, I think he is. Is he the ideal player? No. But I'm not sure I saw many better alternatives out there - especially once Beltre 2004 was gone. Think about where the Dodgers might be without Drew. He's sure better than Shawn Green.

Of course, I still lament not having Vlad.

2005-06-24 09:35:01
130.   fanerman91
I think you're right Jon. The keywords with Drew's $11 million are "in today's market."
2005-06-24 09:35:32
131.   Howard Fox
ahh, yes....with vlad, we'd only be 2-1/2 back...

please don't take issue with the 2 game difference, it was a joke....

2005-06-24 09:36:13
132.   Howard Fox
129 & 130 -

kind of like the home sales prices these days...

2005-06-24 09:37:16
133.   Jon Weisman
Yeah, pretty much. If you had signed J.D. Drew at age 4 to a 30-year mortgage in 1980 or so, you'd have quite a deal.
2005-06-24 09:37:50
134.   Howard Fox
he might have shown more pep and pizazz at age 4
2005-06-24 09:43:48
135.   Steve
I wish we had Carlos Beltran (rolls eyes back into head)
2005-06-24 09:45:15
136.   Howard Fox
135

yes, and Piazza...then we'd be cooking....

2005-06-24 09:49:27
137.   stubbs
129-Beltran would have been a great cornerstone.

The main problem I have with the Drew signing is that I think we overpaid and overbid. Braves have said they offered about 28 over 5 years...who else was bidding on this guy?

Has anyone read the book (cant remember title) where Larussa bashes Drew? What is the jist of what he says.

2005-06-24 09:51:18
138.   Howard Fox
LaRussa doesn't like anyone who he thinks isn't as smart as him, which is just about everybody...
2005-06-24 09:52:04
139.   Howard Fox
and if Beltran was on the Dodgers, he would just about now be coming off the DL
2005-06-24 09:53:41
140.   fanerman91
And Beltran would have 0 HRs as a Dodger since we don't have Pedro. Or has he homered since I last heard about that?
2005-06-24 09:54:34
141.   Jon Weisman
137 - Dodgerkid would be happy to fill you in on that.
2005-06-24 09:56:30
142.   the OZ
137 - please explain how Beltran would be a great cornerstone but Drew is overpaid?

The Tigers were one other team bidding on Drew. I don't know who else besides was bidding.

2005-06-24 09:57:18
143.   the OZ
us and them was bidding.
2005-06-24 09:58:23
144.   stubbs
Production wise, what other free agent signings since Kirk Gibson compare to Jeff Kent thus far?

Please spare Devon White jokes.

Most of our big years have come via trade or home grown guys.

2005-06-24 09:59:35
145.   Howard Fox
144

via trade or home grown...

ok, I give up, what other options might there be??

2005-06-24 10:01:29
146.   stubbs
142-Carlos Beltran has been the premiere CF in baseball statistically the last 4 years, one of the best fielders and backed that up with a near perfect post-season.

Is that enough or should I go into the JD Drew only playing one season injury free?

2005-06-24 10:02:18
147.   regfairfield
I believe the exact wording from my freind who owns Beltran on his fantasy team is "I will hunt him until the day I die." Beltran currently is hitting .264 with eight home runs, a .742 OPS and one steal. Why on Earth do you sign Carlos Beltran and not have him run? He's one of the few people in baseball that can actually steal bases with a positive expected outcome.

As for J.D. Drew having a boo-boo, the man is missing cartilage from his knee. I've bruised the cartilage there, and it hurt pretty badly for a month, I'd hate to see what would happen if some were actually missing.

2005-06-24 10:03:56
148.   Steve
Beltran is the poster boy for overpaid and overbid. One I suppose could find any number of ways to distinguish between Beltran and Drew, but that is a particularly laughable, Plaschke-esque way to do so.
2005-06-24 10:03:58
149.   Howard Fox
Beltran the best statistically over the last 4 years? For some reason I don't think so...maybe...but I'm not that good with numbers, so I don't know...
2005-06-24 10:04:53
150.   Steve
And the Mets still managed to overpay him by about 60 million.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-06-24 10:05:56
151.   Howard Fox
147

my wife has been thru the same thing Drew has, even had 2 knee surgeries concurrently, if Drew was as driven as Kent, he'd be out there playing...

2005-06-24 10:06:12
152.   Im So Blue
144-145
"via trade or home grown...

ok, I give up, what other options might there be??"

Ummm...free agents?

2005-06-24 10:06:49
153.   Icaros
OZ is right, the Tigers were the other team, proven by how much they later overspent on the far inferior and even more injury-plagued (last two years, anyway) Magglio Ordonez.

Drew 2005: .272/.394/.481=.875 OPS
12 HR, 31 RBI

Beltran 2005: .264/.322/.420=.742 OPS
8 HR, 35 RBI

Somebody please try to argue how, especially considering how much more money Beltran makes, Drew is not the better signing.

2005-06-24 10:07:28
154.   Steve
Are we defining "home grown" in Plaschke-speak, which is to say that someone has to be from Covina or Gardena, or are we defining that in the broader sense of coming up through our farm system?
2005-06-24 10:08:32
155.   Howard Fox
152

what's so "free" about them...

I know, I know, as soon as I thought about it, I saw that 3rd option....sorry, don't I feel like a f'ing idiot (with apologies to Jack Nicholson)

2005-06-24 10:08:40
156.   Steve
Beltran could be hitting .330, with 25 stolen bases and 18 home runs, and he'd still be overpaid. Saying JD Drew is overpaid is like saying that ducks quack. So?
2005-06-24 10:08:56
157.   regfairfield
To play devils advocate, it's not entirely fair to compare them only three months into the season. Everyone had Beltran projected at 35/35 this year, so he should get more than three months to work out of it.

To say that we'd be better off right now with Beltran, however, is ludicrous.

2005-06-24 10:09:25
158.   stubbs
people on this site are unreal...Beltran overpaid, sure. Scott Boras has a party every Saturday to celebrate the Dodgers overbidding on Drew. by 25 million.

38 Hr, 42 sb and a 915 ops are run of the mill numbers, while playing gold glove center field.

2005-06-24 10:12:40
159.   Howard Fox
156

do ducks quack? I thought they said aflak

2005-06-24 10:12:42
160.   stubbs
153-im arguing in futures here. id rather have the 155 games from Beltran or Beltre than 135 from drew the next 5 years. And 135 would be a blessing. Also Drew can opt out after 2 years, the funniest part of the contract.
2005-06-24 10:13:22
161.   the OZ
Wow, I go looking for stats but everyone beats me to the punch. Since Icaros brought the 2005 stats, I'll throw in the career numbers:

Drew - 3156 PA, .286 AVG, .391 OBP .901 OPS HR/19ABs

Beltran - 4189 PA, .283 AVG, .351 OBP, .837 OPS HR/24.1ABs

Add that Beltran played for years in KC when it was a severe hitters' park, plus half a season in Houston. Drew played in pitchers' parks in Stl and Atl, yet still outperformed Beltran.

Also, Drew has more plate appearances this season than Beltran, who has been hurt.

2005-06-24 10:13:31
162.   regfairfield
.283/.351/.486/.837
.286/.391/.511/.901

One of these sets of numbers are the carrer stats of Carlos Beltran. The other are the carrer stats of J.D. Drew.

You can guess which one is which.

2005-06-24 10:14:11
163.   regfairfield
161- You spoiled my surprise.
2005-06-24 10:15:25
164.   fanerman91
stubbs,
If Drew opts out in 2 years, at least we don't have to "overpay" him.
2005-06-24 10:16:15
165.   the OZ
Once again, stubbs, we bid $55M against the TIGERS, not the psuedo-micro-offer the BRAVES made. So no, the Dodgers DID NOT overbid the Braves by $25M. Well, technically they did; but they outbid the Tigers by significantly less than that.

The Tigers offered the money they eventually gave to Magglio Ordonez, which was actually MORE than we paid for Drew.

2005-06-24 10:16:36
166.   Steve
I knew that was coming.

Ordonez was the worst signing of the offseason; Beltran was not a lot better.

2005-06-24 10:16:46
167.   Howard Fox
I'd take Drew at his price over Beltran at his price too, but one could also argue that Beltran's number might have been much better if his lineup around him was as good as Drew's
2005-06-24 10:17:16
168.   Icaros
id rather have the 155 games from Beltran or Beltre than 135 from drew the next 5 years.

Is 155 games from Beltre, with the numbers he's currently putting up, a good thing?

2005-06-24 10:18:19
169.   regfairfield
You're forgetting about the defense and intangibles, though.
2005-06-24 10:18:26
170.   Howard Fox
you could be talking 155 games from Repko
2005-06-24 10:19:31
171.   Steve
Beltran is a leader! He hollers! What's wrong with you people!
2005-06-24 10:20:36
172.   stubbs
164-Drew opts out the same day Tracy starts Choi against Oliver Perez. Just noting it was funny to me.

It's kind of fun that Depodesta can do no wrong on this site. Even, if Beltre was leading the league in HR/RBI's there would still be some stat thrown out that Beltre is last in pitches seen per ab, so Drew was the better way to go.

2005-06-24 10:21:32
173.   Jonny6
I'm not usually as anti-Plaschke as most of the regulars on this site, but I think his writing career has really careened off the cliff with today's sorry effort. It's useless to refute his analysis because his piece is simply a vehicle to vent his frustrations over a new style of baseball analysis. His continued use of "witty" computer and technical references is extremely tired and self-indulgent. My god, we get it already Plaschke. DePodesta likes "new-fangled" statistical analysis, while you prefer "character, heart, and other old-school intangibles".

Plaschke is using the same ridiculous tactic that our politicians our hitched to these days. Paint everything in black and white, and then vilify or belittle anyone who disagrees with your assessment. I am just so *&^% sick of it. Whether its sports "journalism" or politics, analysis has degraded into a twisting of snippets and anecdotes in order to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. When it comes to analyzing players, there is a place for using VORP and OPS, and a place for assessing clubhouse chemistry and the need for a Kirk Gibson type. But you can't expect to get everything from a single player, and you can sit around waiting for a fiery competitor while the best players available on the market get snapped up.

Didn't mean for this to turn into such a rant, but today's Plaschke column was truly drivel of the highest order and I am not even a big Drew fan. In fact, I think Drew might be dead last on my "people that I would like to throw back a few beers with" list (probably because it would have to be Ginger Ale).

On the highly erudite side-topic of urine, here's a tidbit for the day. The shamans/medicine men of Siberia and Mongolia used to take Amanita muscaria (a highly hallucinogenic and partially toxic mushroom) as part of a healing ritual. The head shaman got the first batch. Since most of the active ingredient in the Amanita passes through the body unused, the urine still has sufficient hallucinogenic properties. You can guess the rest of the story. After the head shaman got his dose, the lesser shamans would subsequently get their dose a short while later as each one peed in an ornamental vessel and passed it down to the rest of the shaman hierarchy.

2005-06-24 10:22:21
174.   socalcardfan
Plaschke got his board games mixed up. The double sixes referred to by him are from the APBA game which uses two dice of different sizes and represent the best possible outcome for a hitter, in most cases a home run.
2005-06-24 10:23:04
175.   Icaros
Howard,

For one thing, there have been many studies done to disprove the relevance of lineup protection (can somebody remember a link?).

Also, Cliff Floyd and David Wright are putting up better number than just about anyone in the LA lineup.

I love to disagree with you :-)

2005-06-24 10:23:09
176.   Xeifrank
Angels pregame talk radio show on 710 this morning. Guy called in, seemed like a smart fan, atleast compared to the radio host. Said the Angels should sell high on Erstad, and that his production from the first base position wasn't all that good. Radio host thought the caller was crazy and said Erstad brings intangibles to the game. His idea of intangibles was a bunt single Erstad got during the last series of the regular season last year against the A's, as it started a game winning rally. I'm still waiting for a good definition of intangibles as related to sports, and throw in a "scrappy" definition for me too. :)
vr, Xei
2005-06-24 10:24:37
177.   regfairfield
I'll give this to Beltran. He certainly is over replacement level this year. Not quite above average yet but, I'm sure if he works really hard, he'll get there.

The thing is, I'll say DePodesta can do no wrong until he actually does something wrong. He hasn't lost out on an important trade yet, he's hasn't not won the division yet, and so far none of his signings have been all that bad (though time will have to tell on that one.) So yes, other than leaving Erickson on the team, DePodesta hasn't done anything worth complaining about.

2005-06-24 10:24:49
178.   Steve
Beltre? Is he still in the league?
2005-06-24 10:26:07
179.   Jon Weisman
172 - "It's kind of fun that Depodesta can do no wrong on this site."

This just isn't true. It has never been true - just ask Howard Fox, among others - and it isn't true today - just ask Steve, among others.

Anytime someone brands the readership of the site as monolithic, they're not paying attention. I'm not saying that to be defensive (though I am defensive by nature) - but it's just the way it is.

2005-06-24 10:26:34
180.   Howard Fox
175

I look forward to your rebuttals, they make my day

2005-06-24 10:26:51
181.   regfairfield
Wow, Beltre got himself over replacement level too, he's on fire!
2005-06-24 10:26:55
182.   Mark
Scroll wheel on his iPod? WTF does that even mean?
2005-06-24 10:28:10
183.   Howard Fox
179

Yes, and never forget, we always defer to your infinite wisdom...

uh, I mean finite wisdom...

hey Icaros, correct me if I am wrong...

2005-06-24 10:28:58
184.   Icaros
It's kind of fun that Depodesta can do no wrong on this site. Even, if Beltre was leading the league in HR/RBI's there would still be some stat thrown out that Beltre is last in pitches seen per ab, so Drew was the better way to go.

That's BS. Most people here loved Beltre and would be all over DePo if Beltre was doing even half of what he did last season.

I love when people stroll by for a few days to make blanket statements about how all DT regulars think.

2005-06-24 10:29:10
185.   coachbean
A bit off topic... at least where the thread has gone... but since Choi did not start yesterday, I ran his numbers for the season (you can draw your own conclusions...

Starts AB HR Avg OBP Slg OPS
46 163 13 .255 .317 .527 .844

Non Starts AB HR Avg OBP Slg OPS
18 16 0 .063 .118 .063 .18

DNP 8

2005-06-24 10:30:29
186.   Icaros
183 - You were actually right on that one, Howard.

Keep checking with me in the future, though.

2005-06-24 10:31:52
187.   Steve
DePodesta still has Erickson and Grabowski on the roster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2005-06-24 10:32:03
188.   Howard Fox
184

and further on the Beltre point, I liked Beltre, liked that he was homegrown, liked that we watched his development into a star

too bad we lowballed him at $60mm for 6 years...

2005-06-24 10:32:49
189.   Howard Fox
187

Grabowski is there to bring in the substantial Polish community to Dodger Stadium

2005-06-24 10:33:36
190.   Howard Fox
186

you got it

2005-06-24 10:34:13
191.   regfairfield
Considering our current outfield situation, Grabowski, sadly, has to be on the roster.

If he can outplay Cody Ross and Henri Stanley, then I'd hate to see what those two guys do when they get up here.

2005-06-24 10:34:23
192.   Xeifrank
173. Nice post. I fired off your post to Plaschke today, hope you don't mind.
bill.plaschke@latimes.com
doesn't hurt to give him a piece of your mind among other things.
vr, Xei
2005-06-24 10:36:38
193.   Howard Fox
like I said before, I was basically in agreement with Plaschke today....
2005-06-24 10:37:24
194.   Jon Weisman
192 - Did you include the part about the shamans?
2005-06-24 10:42:08
195.   MSarg29
While many are bashing the Times today, which I usually do as well, I have to commend Tim Brown's article about the struggle to come back from Tommy John surgery. It was very well researched, laying out the history of the surgery, explaining it, and interviewing players who have had it performed more than once. That took a lot of work.

I think it was an excellent article.

2005-06-24 10:42:55
196.   the OZ
Plaschke already seems to know a lot about hallucinigenic substances...
2005-06-24 10:42:57
197.   Bob Timmermann
Differentiating between a trade and a free agent signing is a little different now since many trades are based on salary. Especially the Piazza & Co. for Sheffield & Co. trade. The Dodgers have acquired several players in the last year of a contract and then resigned them the next year.

But here is a list of the position players who saw what I consider regular playing time signed as free agents by the Dodgers after 1988 (not including players already with the Dodgers who were signing up after a contract expired) The year used is when the signing took place, so they usually played the year AFTER.
1989 - Hubie Brooks
1990 - Darryl Strawberry, Brett Butler
1995 - Greg Gagne
1996 - Todd Zeile
1998 - Devon White
2002 - Fred McGriff
2004 - Olmedo Saenz, Jose Hernandez (pre season), Jeff Kent, J.D. Drew (off season)

2005-06-24 10:43:58
198.   fanerman91
Gagne pronounced "gag-knee." I remember that. Haha.
2005-06-24 10:45:05
199.   Eric L
re: 188

Beltre does have a family to feed. How do you expect him to get by on a measly $10 million a year?

2005-06-24 10:45:10
200.   the OZ
HallicinOgenic. Sorry, they put the "I" next to the "O" on my keyboard...
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-06-24 10:46:34
201.   Bob Timmermann
Scroll wheel on his iPod? WTF does that even mean?

I hate having to be the guy who has to parse Plaschke for everyone, but I think his metaphor meant that DePodesta thinks that all players are just interchangeable and you can just pick one out from a group and he will do fine. So DePodesta looked the group of players available (aka his iPOD music library), then used the scroll wheel (which runs down your battery fast if you use it a lot) to find JD Drew.

It's scary that I could explain that.

I'm going to have a nice cold glass of urine to calm me down.

2005-06-24 10:48:26
202.   Midwest Blue
192 - He'll be really impressed with the diversity of topics that can be mixe into a Dodger thread.

112 - My apologies, it was late and I missed that line. I was ahuge Veronica Hamel fan. I can't believ she's a senior citizen now.

119 - Yes, he is Urrea. Must know what he's talking about. In the smae book he also goes into detail on various rituals (shamans) and the health properties of urine. Apparently heals eye irritations. Pro-urine users like to point out that "Murine" eye solution, minus the "M" spells...

2005-06-24 10:50:10
203.   Midwest Blue
Forgive the typos. I'm on the run. Got to take a pee.
2005-06-24 10:51:07
204.   Steve
Plaschke should use his 8-Track. Those had heart and soul, not like these modern machines with their fancy scroll wheels.
2005-06-24 10:52:54
205.   Marty
This is easily my all time favorite thread. But I really hope we don't get a scatological thread going.
2005-06-24 10:55:27
206.   fanerman91
201,

Bob, AHH I see. That makes perfect sense me. Oh, and I bet since we live in an age of commercialized music and manufactured "top 40" songs are the ones that fill most ipods, Plashke was also making a comment on the disposability of our culture and how that disposability is creeping into baseball, and he's the only one there to stop it. Clever.

2005-06-24 10:57:28
207.   Bob Timmermann
Plaschke has never seen what I have on my iPOD. If the randomizing part of it works well enough, I can go from Mongolian throat singers, to Danny Kaye singing the "D-O-D-G-E-R-S Song" to Johnny Cash singing "Hurt"
2005-06-24 10:58:31
208.   Howard Fox
201

I believe the phrase is "Urine is a dish best served cold"

2005-06-24 10:59:37
209.   Howard Fox
203

save some for us

2005-06-24 11:00:11
210.   Jon Weisman
The iPod line still doesn't work. I can see Drew being one of the song choices, but how does he become the scroll wheel. DePo, if anyone, is the wheel. Right?
2005-06-24 11:01:09
211.   Howard Fox
210

no, Drew is the bomb

2005-06-24 11:02:12
212.   regfairfield
I thought DePodesta's laptop was the scroll wheel, since that's what he uses to select his players.
2005-06-24 11:03:11
213.   Howard Fox
and here I thought the starting lineup was the first 8 guys to answer his emails
2005-06-24 11:03:41
214.   fanerman91
EH. It doesn't make much sense at all. I suppose the wheel is the mechanism for the choice. Much like the dice would be in the games he got confused on. But there's a difference between the dice and the outcome of the dice (in his case, the two sixes).

DePo is the ipod user. The computer is the wheel. Drew is the song.

DePo is the game player. The computer is the dice. Drew is the 2 sixes.

The analogy doesn't make sense because Plashke refers to Drew as two different things. Or I'm not paying much attention because I'm also working right now.

2005-06-24 11:04:34
215.   fanerman91
BTW Bob, Plashke hasn't looked at my ipod either.
2005-06-24 11:05:18
216.   Howard Fox
we keep shortening Plaschke's name...is there a hidden meaning there? or some subconscious thing going on?
2005-06-24 11:05:38
217.   Steve
I thought Jim Tracy was the scroll wheel, picking random players from the bench to put in the lineup.
2005-06-24 11:06:21
218.   Howard Fox
no, Jim Tracy is the ouija board
2005-06-24 11:06:46
219.   fanerman91
That may just be me misspelling Plaschke on accident. Still, does his name deserve to be spelled correctly? I lowercase padres and giants intentionally. Oh I don't know.
2005-06-24 11:07:43
220.   Howard Fox
as long as it is on accident and not by accident, that's ok
2005-06-24 11:07:46
221.   Steve
Just don't drink your own Plaschke, and you'll be fine.
2005-06-24 11:08:40
222.   Howard Fox
and it always bothers me when people misspell my last name, I would imagine he is no different
2005-06-24 11:08:43
223.   fanerman91
221,
I like the twist this thread is taking.
2005-06-24 11:09:25
224.   Icaros
If Drew is the wheel, DePo is the iPod, and McCourt is the PC, then Plaschke must be the internet because he's filled with a lot of useless crap.
2005-06-24 11:10:29
225.   Howard Fox
maybe Plaschke needs the urine more than we do
2005-06-24 11:10:48
226.   Sam DC
When I want to know what's on your ipod, Bob, I just ask Icaros.

Ratio of author's time spent writing the ipod line to DT time spend deconstructing it: 1:14 ?

Don't see a reference to this above, but sorry if it's a repeat. Jayson Stark (can we get him in the outfield?) has an article today "questioning" Beltran's performance this year. Haven't read more than the intro because it's a subscription deal, but the teaser line is that Beltran is tied for stolen bases with Derek Lowe. (He's also tied with Jason Grabowski, by the way.)

2005-06-24 11:11:15
227.   fanerman91
Hmm. My eyes are itching. Maybe I need some MPlaschke eye drops...
2005-06-24 11:12:11
228.   Howard Fox
226

actually I think more have stolen on Lowe than on Beltran

2005-06-24 11:13:05
229.   fanerman91
228

I think he means Lowe himself has stolen as many bases on Beltran.

2005-06-24 11:13:35
230.   Howard Fox
It is interesting what winning a couple of games will do for this blog.

Even though the topics are kind of stupid today, it is much more upbeat than a couple of days ago...

2005-06-24 11:14:01
231.   Midwest Blue
Existentially, Drew is the myth, DePo is the light, JT is the dark , Choi is good and Erickson is evil.
2005-06-24 11:14:11
232.   Howard Fox
229

ask Icaros...he'll tell you I was kidding

2005-06-24 11:14:59
233.   fanerman91
Darn. Not inside enough to get these inside joke =/.
2005-06-24 11:15:03
234.   Howard Fox
231

and just who might the Emperor be??

2005-06-24 11:15:32
235.   Icaros
226 - I don't understand a lot of technological devices (I'm a 29-year-old elderly man), so when I'm hanging at Bob's (while he's working at the Library) I usually use his IPod as a coaster.
2005-06-24 11:16:24
236.   the OZ
In case it hasn't been posted, here's a cut from BP's chat with Michael Lewis, who ghostwrote "Moneyball" for Billy Beane:

"emanski (trenton): Paul DePodesta faces an unusually difficult market in terms of his approach, and I imagine he's getting hammered in LA despite Choi's resurgence. How much is the Beane/et al approach tied to DePodesta's success or failure in LA?

Michael Lewis: I'm astonished at the vitriol aimed at Paul, and am equally amazed at the lack of curiosity of L.A. sports writers about why he does what he does. The Los Angeles Times, especially, employs two of the nastiest and most inept (least ept?) baseball columnists in the land. (I think it's just plain dumb how unseriously the major newspapers take sports; their approach to the hiring of sports columnists is an insult to sports fans.) Think of it! Young man takes over the previosly woeful home team, is hammered daily in the local papers for his idiosyncratic moves, pilots the previously uniwnning team to its first division title in, what, 15 years? and what do the local writers do? Hammer him some more!"

2005-06-24 11:16:36
237.   Howard Fox
just so long as you don't use it in the toaster
2005-06-24 11:16:40
238.   Steve
234 -- Kevin Malone
2005-06-24 11:17:22
239.   Midwest Blue
234 -- Why, Plaschke, of course (you didn't think I would say the Parking Lot Attendent, did you?)
2005-06-24 11:17:47
240.   Howard Fox
236

yeah, so what of it

2005-06-24 11:17:57
241.   LAT
As the lone voice for Shawn Green I feel compelled to point out that Green's numbers are better than Beltran's.

Beltran - .283 AVG, .351 OBP, .837 OPS HR/24.1ABs

Green - .282 AVG, .356 OBP, .861 OPS

Couldn't find the HR/AB ratio and didn't try to do it on my own. Tend to injure myself when working with numbers.

2005-06-24 11:18:02
242.   Steve
234 -- or possibly Lon Rosen
2005-06-24 11:18:39
243.   Howard Fox
238-as long as its not Moses Malone
2005-06-24 11:19:03
244.   Icaros
I don't know Howard, if you think 6 years/$60 million is lowballing a player with one great season, I can't tell when you're kidding or not anymore.
2005-06-24 11:19:11
245.   Howard Fox
241

leave us Jews alone

2005-06-24 11:19:28
246.   Steve
Shawn Green's better than Beltran.

I find that highly amusing.

2005-06-24 11:19:55
247.   Howard Fox
244-I was paraphrasing Beltre's comments from Seattle
2005-06-24 11:21:49
248.   Icaros
241 - Is that really LAT, or has his daughter started posting under his screen name?
2005-06-24 11:21:58
249.   fanerman91
230

It's nice to see that winning breeds "chemistry," even in the online forums.

2005-06-24 11:22:52
250.   Midwest Blue
So when do we start the guerilla campaign to get Jon to be a "guest" columnist in the Times? We could write letters to the editor, drape signs in conspicuous places like Dodger games (John 3:16)and billboards, or launch other nasty anti-Times actions until they print our hero (the Emperor? the Urine-master?)
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-06-24 11:23:38
251.   stubbs
184-You are the man. Sorry that I can't be here all day every day and agree with all your points. just relax, have fun arguing the points and dont get to worked up.
2005-06-24 11:25:07
252.   LAT
Its me Icaros, daughter could have figure out the AB/HR ratio.
2005-06-24 11:25:31
253.   Howard Fox
All Jon has to do to get a job with the Times is start writing highly negative, biting columns irrationally berating all things Dodgers
2005-06-24 11:27:15
254.   Howard Fox
253 - BTW Icaros, this comment was not a joke
2005-06-24 11:28:25
255.   stubbs
236-I used to love Ross Newhan. If I recall he was very negative about the moves last season. Would love a guest column in the times from Newhan, to get his Dodger opinion.
2005-06-24 11:31:06
256.   the OZ
The story about Newhan and his son last year was pretty awesome. I can't imagine a greater personal or professional moment than Ross seeing his son David hit a big league HR, much less going on the hot streak that David put up subsequently.
2005-06-24 11:32:36
257.   Steve
Newhan was just sent down last week.
2005-06-24 11:34:06
258.   Midwest Blue
Gone for the weekend. Good luck Blue against the dreaded LAA Devils.

And remember: If it's the color of Guiness, you've drunk too much. Get a new batch from your neighbor.

2005-06-24 11:35:14
259.   fanerman91
258,
I assume you're referring to one's Plaschke.
2005-06-24 11:36:45
260.   stubbs
257-He will get recalled if Melvin Mora has to go on the DL with his bad hammy.

"Having one helps, no doubt about it," pitcher Derek Lowe said. "Having somebody jump somebody's butt once in a while, you need that. Right now, when you lose around here, it's so quiet. It's like everyone walking around on tippy-toes."

Someone needs to emerge in the leader role...Depo's list of Lowe, Gagne, Valentin and Bradley has only one real candidate on it-Bradley. The inclusion of Valentin is comical. What has Valentin done in his mediocre career that ever screamed winner or leader.

2005-06-24 11:37:29
261.   LAT
#258 What if your neighbor is a shaman?
2005-06-24 11:44:52
262.   Jim Hitchcock
Fun Fact of the Day: We all know that mixing Clorox and ammonia creates a deadly gas, right?

So, to be on the safe side, no more peeing in the pool...

2005-06-24 11:49:56
263.   Howard Fox
262
then where am I supposed to pee??
2005-06-24 11:56:19
264.   regfairfield
Coincidentally, Jayson Stark's column today goes into detail about how much Beltran has sucked this year.
2005-06-24 11:59:04
265.   Eric L
re: 260

Valentin drew criticism in Chicago for being too vocal.

2005-06-24 11:59:44
266.   Icaros
You are the man. Sorry that I can't be here all day every day and agree with all your points. just relax, have fun arguing the points and dont get to worked up.

No one's getting worked up. I have had lots of fun proving you wrong the last couple of days.

2005-06-24 12:11:47
267.   Jim Hitchcock
263 - In the shower, of course.
2005-06-24 12:12:05
268.   Howard Fox
266 - you seem to have a calming effect on everyone
2005-06-24 12:15:48
269.   MSarg29
268 - I would agree with that.
I say that with a smile.
2005-06-24 12:17:10
270.   stubbs
266-if proving me wrong is a losing record in the worst division in baseball in years, then....if you wanna admit we are rebuilding right now, I will say fine. But then there is that whole JD Drew contract.
2005-06-24 12:21:06
271.   Howard Fox
270

you have to have something to build around, you don't want to start from ground zero...

that is called the Devil Rays

2005-06-24 12:21:12
272.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers don't rebuild, we reload!

However, we seem to be using the wrong caliber of ammunition and it might blow up in our face.

2005-06-24 12:22:55
273.   Howard Fox
like I said earlier, Drew is the bomb
2005-06-24 12:23:26
274.   fanerman91
We can rebuild and be competitive at the same time. Last year was a rebuilding year and we won the division. If Drew opts out of his contract in 2 years, we'll have the money to spend somewhere else. If he doesn't, though he won't be considered "young," he'll still be in some of the best years of his career. By then we should be done rebuilding, should have some great prospects up, and (with a little luck) be legitimate contenders to win it all.
2005-06-24 12:25:15
275.   Mark
Wait, last year was a rebuilding year? I thought this year was a rebuilding year.

Someone call the contractor.

2005-06-24 12:25:46
276.   fanerman91
I say rebuilding not like we were once contenders but our veterans have finally aged, but rebuilding like a demolitionist named Kevin Malone blew apart our entire foundation in the span of a couple years and now we're just getting to be done "fixing" everything.
2005-06-24 12:28:55
277.   Bob Timmermann
But does any of this take into account the Alex Sanchez signing by the Giants. He could be a key part of the puzzle for them.
2005-06-24 12:39:50
278.   Icaros
270 - If the team ends with a losing record you are not necessarily proven right.

We've had discussions where you claimed that Beltran signed a better contract than Drew, and that an outfield of Alou, Encarnacion, and Green with no pitching staff would be better than what we have now. I feel like I and a few others successfully rebutted those claims.

Please don't play the innocent role now when you've clearly come to antagonize the past few days, comments like "Moneyball Forever" during yesterday's game thread and "Hee-Suck Choi" come to mind. They don't bother me, personally, but don't get upset when you get called out for it.

I'd say something in response to MSarg, but I know he's a little sensitive and I'm in too good of a mood to go down that road again. I say that with a smile.

2005-06-24 12:45:29
279.   Steve
Heck, "Encarnacion" alone is enough to drive any Dodger fan crazy with rage. Like "Marichal."
2005-06-24 12:45:32
280.   Steve
Heck, "Encarnacion" alone is enough to drive any Dodger fan crazy with rage. Like "Marichal."
2005-06-24 12:46:27
281.   Steve
See, I'm having seizures.
2005-06-24 12:48:09
282.   LAT
John Donovan of SI has an article on Yhaoo about Depo. It is not very informative. But it got me thinking.

It seems to me there are three componants to the deals a GM makes: (1) the new players he acquires. Here, Depo has done an average job. Except for MB, I can't say Depo has gotten any real talent for value. Maybe Penny too. I have questions about Drew over the long term and we can all agree Valintine and Ladee were never the answer. Although we would really be up the river without Kent. Some good things -some bad things.

(2) The deals you lose out on. Here, Depo again is average. I would have prefered Clement or Hudson to Lowe or re-signing Odalis. Would have prefered Delgado to Drew but don't know enough about Delgado's contract. (Could it be worse than Drew's?)But I was glad we never entered the Beltran or Pedro contests.

(3) Identifing current players who should be replaced. Cora, Lima, Beltre and yes, those who know me know I hate admit it, even Green. Here Depo has been a master. However, taking away from this is his inablity to regognize his players who need to be replaced. Erikson, Grabs and even Werth.

Not that anybody cares but for today I give Depo a C+.

2005-06-24 12:53:11
283.   Steve
I learned nothing about urine-drinking from John Donovan. Yet another example of how the internet improves on "Old Media"
2005-06-24 12:59:52
284.   scareduck
282: you are kidding about Hudson, right? He recently went back on the DL because of an oblique strain, the same injury that sent him down at the end of the last season. I thought Beane moving both him and Mulder in the same offseason was making the best of a bad situation. The A's farm system may not be in a position to make them competitors in the near future, but I do think they'll be better off next year and possibly even as early as the second half.

Matt Clement was going to sign with an east coast team, period.

2005-06-24 13:07:44
285.   regfairfield
I wonder how long it will be before someone in the mainstream media admits that keeping Zito was the correct choice?
2005-06-24 13:07:47
286.   db1022
#282 - Yeah, that's tough to pin the FA's he didn't sign on him. They didn't choose the Dodgers. What do you want him to do - overbid?

And what's this "maybe Penny too"? He's the best Dodger starting pitcher since Ramon Martinez was in his hey-day (hay-day?).

2005-06-24 13:10:49
287.   MSarg29
Geez Icaros I wasnt being antagonistic. I guess I'm the sensitive one though. I was making light of our disagreement. If this is you in a good mood...
2005-06-24 13:16:29
288.   stubbs
284-Hudson was having a solid season until the strain. I'll take the oblique over the Penny bicep.

In all honesty, I don't have a serious beef with anything Depo has done other than Beltre/Drew. I attend about 20 home games a year and the magic in Dodger stadium with Beltre last year was incredible. The fans loved that our inconsistent teenage son had finally grown up and he gave us the best season by a 3B in the history of baseball. His glove, his clutch hitting...it was the total package. He carried an average offensive team to 94 wins and I am outraged that Drew got his money, just like I was outraged that Brown got Piazza's.

2005-06-24 13:18:58
289.   Bob Timmermann
Icaros has been in a bad mood ever since I changed the locks on my apartment after the incident with my cat.

He also has been blighted by the Curse of Jason Ellison after going to a Dodgers game with me. We are forever doomed to walk the earth saying "The Dodgers never win when I go" as well as, "Alex Sanchez is a good situational hitter."

2005-06-24 13:19:02
290.   fanerman91
stubbs,
There are many among us, including myself, that wish that Beltre would have stayed a Dodger. Even with his performance this season, I still wish he were here. You're right, watching him mature and put it all together last seas was a sight to behold.
2005-06-24 13:19:23
291.   Steve
What do you want him to do - overbid?

Easily the line of the day.

2005-06-24 13:20:35
292.   GoBears
288: I can see how people would be upset at the Beltre/Drew tradeoff at the time. But at this point, it's just plain silly. Beltre had "reversion to the mean" written all over him, and has reverted with a vengeance. Unless one wants to make the patently ridiculous claim that Beltre would be repeating 2004 if only he'd remained a Dodger, then at this point, the Drew/Beltre tradeoff has been an inmitigated success for Depodesta. And that's ignoring the part about Beltre and Boras spurning a more-than-generous offer for the possible one-shot wonder - that it was their choice for him to go to Seattle, not Depodesta's.
2005-06-24 13:21:32
293.   GoBears
unmitigated. Damn, I can't type when I'm hungry...
2005-06-24 13:21:35
294.   Steve
292 -- I wish we would have resigned Beltre, just so we could still be 35-37, and Plaschke wouldn't have anything to write about.
2005-06-24 13:25:35
295.   Humma Kavula
294- Plaschke would still criticize DePo (for signing Beltre).

The sun still rises in the east. Some things are out of our control.

2005-06-24 13:27:20
296.   fanerman91
On one of the forums I frequent, somebody in their "sig" has the Star Wars line, "only Sith see things in black and white." It was a link, and it linked to a picture of George W. Bush. If this was like an online forum, I'd have it link to good ol' Plaschke.
2005-06-24 13:29:13
297.   stubbs
292-I can't argue with people who won't admit that Beltre would be having a much better season in a familiar league, at familiar stadium, with his manager/teammates in place and less pressure. Also, what about the defense? Or is that not an important part of Dodger baseball? Surely you understand the difference in importance between 3B and RF.
2005-06-24 13:29:57
298.   the OZ
294 - If that were the case, we'd have lots of great Cora and Lo Duca stories to read instead. Like the time that Watson, Crick, and Cora unraveled the mystery of DNA, and the nights that Lo Duca jump-started cars in the parking lot after games by hooking the jumper cables to his powerful heart and/or soul.
2005-06-24 13:30:05
299.   MSarg29
I do remember Plaschke writing a very positive article about Choi a couple of weeks ago.
2005-06-24 13:31:20
300.   db1022
#296 - I hate to be nit-picky, but isn't the line "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"?

Maybe they both are in the movie.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-06-24 13:31:35
301.   Steve
297 -- that is sophistry, which is why you can't argue it.

And anyway, don't call him Shirley!

That joke doesn't work quite as well in writing.

2005-06-24 13:32:33
302.   fanerman91
db1022,
You're right. I was quoting from memory. It seemed wrong as I was typing but I couldn't remember the right line.
2005-06-24 13:32:51
303.   Icaros
MSarg,

No offense intended, though I didn't really know what to make of your comment.

Sorry.

2005-06-24 13:36:21
304.   Bob Timmermann
This was from a Plaschke column in 1999:

Ten guys, in no particular order, who should definitely not be traded:

* Kevin Brown: Maybe not the leader they wanted, but certainly the ace they need.

* Chan Ho Park: You don't quit this soon on an arm that good.

* Darren Dreifort: The six-inning pitcher is ready to extend himself.

* Pedro Borbon: You can never have enough decent left-handed relievers.

* Onan Masaoka: Especially if that lefty could go to Albuquerque and learn to be a starter.

* Todd Hundley: He's getting stronger every day, and his left-handed bat is too valuable to give away.

* Angel Pena: Allows Hundley to change positions if necessary.

* Adrian Beltre: Their third baseman for the next 10 years.

* Todd Hollandsworth: Important piece in a lefty-righty platoon that Davey Johnson has worked so successfully in the past.

* Gary Sheffield: The team's best hitter, and don't forget that championship ring.

2005-06-24 13:36:25
305.   Icaros
Bob,

Haven't you figured out yet that I always use the window?

2005-06-24 13:37:39
306.   db1022
#297 - I didn't know he was so fragile. If Beltre is affected so much by his surroundings that he goes from being an MVP-runner up to a mediocre (at best!) ballplayer...

Had he stayed here, how would he have reacted if/when Tracy is fired - 15 less homers? What about the new seating configuration at Dodger Stadium - those new seats would've cost him about 20 points on his batting average? No names on the back of the jerseys - that's 50 points off his slugging percentage. That ad ribbon that circles the Club level - 5 more errors? Izturis sits with a hamstring for a week - Beltre goes hitless?

2005-06-24 13:38:49
307.   Bob Timmermann
In February 1999, Plaschke wrote about Eric Karros as "The Last Dodger"
2005-06-24 13:39:00
308.   MSarg29
Icaros,

I just thought it was a funny line. I didn't mean to start anything. Sorry if it was taken the wrong way. I do spend a lot of time lurking on this board because I find it interesting, even if I don't feel I have the time while I'm at work to keep up and make comments. I agree with some on this board and probably disagree with slightly more, but I mean no offense.

2005-06-24 13:43:05
309.   Icaros
Beltre sure gets a lot of free passes to feel comfortable. It took him five years in LA until he felt comfy enough to not chase sliders in the dirt. How many years does he get in Seattle, another five?

Baseball is baseball. If Beltre has such a problem with comfort in new situations, what's going to happen if he ever gets to a World Series?

2005-06-24 13:44:31
310.   Icaros
306 kind of stole my thunder, oh well.
2005-06-24 13:45:14
311.   dan reines
"I can't argue with people who won't admit that Beltre would be having a much better season in a familiar league, at familiar stadium, with his manager/teammates in place and less pressure."

I hate to butt in here (but I will). Even if one were to concede this point*, are you willing, then, to be as generous with Drew's performance? True, he's in the same league, but otherwise, the circumstances are the same. In fact, he may be facing more pressure, given that he and a handful of others have been made unwitting representatives of The Depodesta Way, and thus the target of misdirected anger by irascible sports columnists.

And yet, Drew has outperformed Beltre by a damn sight so far. Yeah, it's still early. But if you're going to excuse Beltre's abominable performance because he doesn't know any good restaurants near the stadium yet, then why aren't you praising Drew for his performance under the same trying circumstances? Or Kent, for that matter? Or Lowe?

*- Well, all except the thing about less pressure -- why would he have any less pressure after signing a massive contract to play here? It's one thing when he was just our homegrown heretofore disappointment putting it all together for one ungodly season. But having to reproduce that season one year and $60-something million later? that seems like plenty of pressure.

2005-06-24 13:47:25
312.   stubbs
You are acting like no one else has ever switched leagues/teams and struggled. How about the best player in baseball just last year, Alex Rodriguez?
2005-06-24 13:47:39
313.   Icaros
308 - That's cool, thanks. You should speak up more often. I've found that it makes work a lot less...well, work.
2005-06-24 13:48:19
314.   Steve
306 -- wow. All I can say to that is wow.
2005-06-24 13:49:35
315.   Howard Fox
309 -
I have always believed it wasn't that Beltre learned after 5 years to lay off the low outside slider, rather that the bone spurs made it too painful to reach for them
2005-06-24 13:50:34
316.   dan reines
"You are acting like no one else has ever switched leagues/teams and struggled."

Of course it happens. And maybe that really is what's wrong with Beltre. But given that last year's production was such an anamoly in his career, it's at LEAST as possible that the guy is just not as good as he seemed in 2005. Innit?

2005-06-24 13:50:40
317.   Icaros
315 - That's even worse for Seattle then, isn't it?
2005-06-24 13:50:59
318.   fanerman91
313
I can attest to that.
2005-06-24 13:52:08
319.   Steve
Alex Rodriguez struggling yields a .900 OPS, 30+ HR, and a playoff team.

Adrian Beltre struggling appears to yield a sub-Cora OPS, 10+ HR, and a Seattle team roughly as bad as it was before, but three or four times more expensive.

So I think you're actually making Icaros's and DB's point, but I'll defer to them.

2005-06-24 13:52:28
320.   stubbs
Im sure JD Drew has pressure. JD Drew hasn't been that bad. The problems with Drew are more centered around his injury history and the fact he plays a position which is of far less importance than 3B. Beltre will have a good second half, is only 26 and is a likable guy around the clubhouse. JD Drew is 29 and not meant for LA.
2005-06-24 13:52:38
321.   Howard Fox
317-
yes, very bad for them, unless of course he has a recurrence, probably in his 6th year there
2005-06-24 13:55:12
322.   stubbs
Just curious when did OPS overtake run-production as the most important baseball statistic? Should batting averarge with RISP be a component somehow?
2005-06-24 13:56:55
323.   db1022
#320 - What makes you think that its the "pressure" that's getting to Beltre anyway? Take a look at his career, this is exactly inline with what he's done, outside of 2004. If anything, he is performing to reasonable expectations.
2005-06-24 13:57:21
324.   Steve
Adrian Beltre is currently on a seven-game hitting streak, raising his OPS from .621 to .665! Watch out! Here he comes!
2005-06-24 14:00:01
325.   Howard Fox
322-
actually I am partial to (hits + RBIs + runs + BBs - GIDP/2 - LOBs)/(annual salary)

call it the PISS (Production Indexed Statistical System)

another joke, Icaros

2005-06-24 14:00:22
326.   MSarg29
320 - I also think that Beltre will turn it around in Seattle and mark me down as someone who is still upset we didnt resign him. But his performance right now is making it tough for fans of his to stand up for him. But at least Beltre's Dodger fans can debate it on this board, Beltre's Seattle fans have to watch him work through his troubles.
2005-06-24 14:01:44
327.   Vishal
sure, if batting average with RISP was something that had a high season-to-season correlation. as it is, drew hasn't had enough at-bats this year with RISP for it to be a significant sample. and for what it's worth, jd drew's career line with RISP is .295/.407/.524, which is better than his stats with the bases empty.
2005-06-24 14:02:44
328.   fanerman91
322,
BA with RISP is a lot of luck. While there are clutch hitters and choking hitters, there are also plenty of people that perform the same in "clutch" situations. There aren't that many either situations either, so it's hard to distinguish whether the player really is "clutch" or if the situations happen to come at times when he's in a streak (hot or cold).

OPS is more often used here than in other circles. But it's pretty popular in baseball discussion these days. ESPN has probably helped popularized it (Gammons, the player profile page), so maybe some people took that as a sign that it's "okay" to use. Not like those crazy "VORP" things.

2005-06-24 14:03:15
329.   stubbs
325-you have to careful with the stat jokes here.
2005-06-24 14:05:39
330.   Icaros
You're pissing me off, Howard ;-)
2005-06-24 14:05:54
331.   Howard Fox
329-um, actually, no I don't

I have been brow beaten many times here in the past, but I believe there is a lot more to baseball than the stats which everyone is so enamored with

I understand and agree with alot of the whole MoneyBall thing, but believe there are a lot of intangibles that the Tracy by-the-book types do not give enough credit to

2005-06-24 14:06:11
332.   Jon Weisman
I just have one word about the conversation in this thread: zesty!
2005-06-24 14:06:21
333.   MSarg29
328 - I understand your point about BA w/ RISP being much about luck. I don't fully agree with it, but it seems to me that many who subscribe to that theory apply it to those they like such as Drew and not to those they don't like such as Green or Loduca.
2005-06-24 14:06:39
334.   Howard Fox
330-
urine the right neighborhood
2005-06-24 14:08:27
335.   Vishal
331 - howard, i thought the complaint was that tracy and his ilk give TOO much credit to intangibles.
2005-06-24 14:10:21
336.   Icaros
Just curious when did OPS overtake run-production as the most important baseball statistic?

It hasn't quite yet, but it will this fall when "The Story of Billy Beane" airs on Lifetime.

2005-06-24 14:10:36
337.   MSarg29
The mens room on our office floor is currently being cleaned, which means its not in service for at least 10 minutes. All this urine talk is making me pace around my office.
2005-06-24 14:11:03
338.   Steve
Tracy by-the-book types

Fun With Dick and Jane
The Cat In The Hat
Oh, The Bunts You Will Bunt

2005-06-24 14:11:33
339.   Icaros
MSarg,

Imagine a waterfall of Gatorade.

2005-06-24 14:13:16
340.   MSarg29
Thanks Icaros. Actually I cant stand Gatorade, it makes me more thirsty - too salty.
2005-06-24 14:13:47
341.   Howard Fox
335-
too much?? how is that possible??

0 for 13 indicates that Choi will never get a hit against Williams...that kind of reasoning by Tracy makes me nuts...

you have a guy who has found his stroke, hits 7 HRs (including 1 against a lefty) in 4 days and Tracy rests him because that is what the book says??

you have a young guy batting in the .360 or so range on a 10 game hitting streak, the bench is depleted by injuries, and he gets rested too cause that is what the book says??

what happened to the old adage of going with the hot hitter...oh wait, that never made the final edition of Tracy's book...

2005-06-24 14:13:51
342.   LAT
#334 That was funny Howard.
2005-06-24 14:14:33
343.   Howard Fox
336-no, its on WE
2005-06-24 14:14:50
344.   stubbs
amongst our big hitters from the last 10 years, this is what I recall about them in pressure situations, no stats here, just what i remember.

clutch/non-clutch:

Sheffield-the most clutch
Beltre-clutch last year of course, average before.
Piazza-average
Karros-save for '95 was the king of the up 7 down 7 homerun.
Loduca-Clutch
Jordan-Clutch
Mondesi-Had his moments, a bit above average.
Green-Not clutch
vizcaino-kinda clutch if i recall
bradley-clutch
drew-average
kent-clutch

2005-06-24 14:15:56
345.   Howard Fox
344-thanks for sharing
2005-06-24 14:17:14
346.   fanerman91
333,
I try not to use it too much. It's one of those things that COULD be useful if you know what you're doing but is too often misused. I hardly pay attention to it, or try not to. If a hitter chokes in the situation, I just tell myself, "It's just chance." Of course if a Dodger succeeds, clutch indeed.
2005-06-24 14:17:26
347.   MSarg29
344 - Sheff seemed to me to get tight in September.
2005-06-24 14:17:56
348.   stubbs
addemdum, vizcaino wasnt a big hitter, just remembering him as coming up with big hits.
2005-06-24 14:18:17
349.   Vishal
#341

haha, well if you want to put it that way, howard, then maybe the problem is tracy that is just not reading the book carefully enough. i'm pretty sure the book says pretty clearly that 13 at-bats is an insignificant sample size. and the book should also say that it doesn't make sense to bunt with a .360 hitter and let the .220 hitter try to drive the run in.

so this has now turned into a battle against illiteracy.

2005-06-24 14:18:46
350.   Marty
I'm just going on what I remember, but I recall Beltre disappearing last September.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-06-24 14:18:46
351.   Vishal
..."illitracy"?
2005-06-24 14:19:03
352.   the OZ
OPS is nice, and I use it a lot, but it's first-generation stuff.

The newest, hottest hit stat now is the 3OBP version of OPS, in which OBP is multiplied by about 3 and SLG is multiplied by about 2. This is to mitigate the SLG number generally dominating the stat and lend equal weight to the two measures.

but no one really uses it anywhere because it requires multiple, albeit simple, math steps.

A .400/.500 player has an OPS of .900 with a 2.200 3OBP version.

A .300/.600 player will have OPS of .900, but 3OBP of 2.100.

A .450/.450 player will be .900 and 2.250.

Very small differences, but some people did the math and think that these are better measures of actual contribution to scoring runs. I make no claims about whether OPS or 3OBP is better, or that 3OBP is even necessary, but there it is.

2005-06-24 14:19:47
353.   LAT
344 Kent's entry shoud read CLUTCH+++
2005-06-24 14:20:47
354.   Steve
Vizcaino?
2005-06-24 14:20:59
355.   ddger
Just read in Daily News that Depo is considering sending down Derek Thompson and bringing up Cody Ross. Last night Derek was great in keeping the Dodgers in the game with 3 shutout innings. I think he was the unsung hero. Also he was hitting 93 to 94 on his fastball and looked the best of all of his outings. I didn't know he had that kind of velocity. This was after sitting out 16 days. Why in the world would Depo send him down and keep Erickson. It just doesn't make any sense.
2005-06-24 14:21:04
356.   stubbs
350-
Beltre hit .350 in Sept with a 432 OBA and 23 rbi. Hr's were down a bit, with 6.
2005-06-24 14:21:12
357.   Steve
Never mind.
2005-06-24 14:22:14
358.   stubbs
354-
Jose, the guy before Cesar.
2005-06-24 14:22:33
359.   Marty
bad memory. Must upgrade
2005-06-24 14:22:41
360.   Steve
Beltre killed the ball for most of September. He disappeared just for the last week, which as we all remember, was a fairly traumatic week and seemed like a month.
2005-06-24 14:23:08
361.   Howard Fox
349...on the subject of literacy, let me make this perfectly clear, I am for it
2005-06-24 14:23:17
362.   Jon Weisman
So sad. I have news to report, so the Cocktails thread will soon be winding to a close.
2005-06-24 14:23:22
363.   ddger
Does anyone listen to DodgerTalk after dodger games on radio. Since they switched to 980, there is at least 50% news and commercials. I timed 30 minute segment and only 15 minutes were for dodger talk.
2005-06-24 14:24:08
364.   Sam NYC
If I remember correctly, wasn't Beltre always a second-half kind of guy? I'm really asking here because I remember thinking, prior to last year, that Beltre would hit 18 of his 23 homers after the All-star break.

Howard,
There's no better way to light a fire in this blog than to argue that statistics don't mean everything. Heresy, I say, HERESY! I enjoy saying it here because when I'm not here I'm on Christian chat rooms telling them that the fetus isn't a life ... ever had a priest call you a pig-$%^#&@ ... good times, good times.

2005-06-24 14:24:10
365.   Steve
358 -- yeah, I know. I was just trying to figure out why you included him with the rest of those guys. I heard the Sesame Street song playing in my head:

"One of these things is not like the others"

But that's better than the Looney Tunes I'm usually hearing.

2005-06-24 14:24:34
366.   Langhorne
#304

Thanks Bob, that's the funniest thing I've read all week. Ah, for the halcyon days of Onan Masaoka. Plaschke really is like urine. There may have been some small useful element to begin with but more times you digest his writting the more impure and useless it becomes.

As for Beltre, I can't believe anyone would want to risk paying him the money he's getting for that many years. I think it was the worst signing in baseball last year. Obviously, I have hindsight but Beltre has gotten worse every year since 1999 until last year. I might have offered him a two year deal but nothing more. #315 I agree. I think Beltre's ankle had a lot to do with his success last year. The question I had last year was would he learn to hit the same way on a good ankle. So far he hasn't. It surprises me that people think that one great year after five lousy ones means that a player will, henceforth, be great. Streaks come in years as well as days. I was relieved that Dodgers didn't resign him at the price and length he got from Seattle. Beltre was fun to watch but so was Max Patkin, I wouldn't have paid either $13,000,000 to play third base. It's unfair of me to point out that Jason Grabowski has one fewer HRs than Beltre this year in less than a third of Beltre's PAs.

2005-06-24 14:24:40
367.   LAT
#360 I believe Beltre was no where to be found in the St. Louis series.
2005-06-24 14:25:19
368.   stubbs
365-dont know why I did it, just remembered him singling to center everytime he came up in a late game situation.
2005-06-24 14:25:21
369.   Icaros
343 - Howard, the one on WE is a different production titled "Billy Beane, Heart of a Stathead." It stars Rick Shroeder as BB and Neil Patrick Harris as DePodesta.

The one on Lifetime, "The Story of Billy Beane," stars Lorenzo Lamas as Billy and the kid who plays Harry Potter as DePo.

I'm so excited, I may have to get cable TV again.

2005-06-24 14:25:33
370.   fanerman91
I've heard about OPS weighting before but never this 3OBP stat. I recall reading a couple years ago something where OBP was worth about 1.5*SLG (more like 1.4 something IIRC). Which is exactly what 3OBP is. Hah.

In Moneyball, DePo was said to have said that OBP was 3x as important. With his little thought of experiment of how many runs a team with a 1000 OBP would score versus a 1000 SLG.

2005-06-24 14:25:50
371.   Jon Weisman
352 - Does 3OBP make J.D. Drew more valuable?

360 - Agree.

2005-06-24 14:26:31
372.   Howard Fox
369-don't bother, there's nothing to watch
2005-06-24 14:27:29
373.   LAT
#363 Thank you. I thought it was just me. I listen to the Angel pregame sometimes just to see if they have the 2 minutes of conversation and 10 mins of commercials/news--and they don't.
2005-06-24 14:27:45
374.   Howard Fox
371
3OBP just means I need to clean my glasses
2005-06-24 14:28:33
375.   Steve
Oh please God make the above bit of news mean that DePo is following the Haskins Plan and DFAing Erickson and calling up Ross. Please, please, please, please, please.
2005-06-24 14:34:07
376.   LAT
#360 Icaros, if I was President of Lifetime, you would have a bright future in casting.

Who plays his daughter in SoCal who uses as an excuse to not go East.

2005-06-24 14:37:25
377.   LAT
For once I am here to hear Jon say "everyone out of the pool." Usually, I get back from the bathroom and everyone is gone.
2005-06-24 14:42:34
378.   Icaros
His daughter is played by Tori Spelling on the Lifetime version, but she isn't a character on the other one. It's more focused on actual baseball.
2005-06-24 14:44:50
379.   the OZ
371 - yeah, I guess, but only marginally. Like I say, I don't use it ever, but it's out there and some people do.

The whole "newest, hottest stat" thing was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

2005-06-24 14:44:52
380.   db1022
WAIT! Is this a record for a non-game chat? 380ish.
2005-06-24 14:49:33
381.   Rob M
Just to be clear, for stubbs. The reason OPS is emphasized is that it's been pretty clearly established that there is a very high correlation between runs scored and a OPS (or more clearly with OBP weighted more highly). This is true for any team in history. You can plug a team's total bases, hit, walks, plate appearances into a formula and predict with great accuracy how many runs they scored that year.

Notice it give zero weight to productive outs, timely hitting, etc. That's why the sabermetric community believes those stats are misleading. Because all available evidence says they are. And this is why it's so frustrating to see Plaschke, et al, continue to talk about the importance of these intangibles, heart and soul, whatever. There is no correllation with actual offensive output.

I believe Bill James discovered this originally.

2005-06-24 14:49:47
382.   Jon Weisman
It might be, db. I was ready to let it go all the way to game time, but things happen.
2005-06-27 07:34:11
383.   Midwest Blue
Since the "Cocktails" thread is a keeper, I thought I'd sneak in after a depressing weekend where the Dodgers got swept by the LAA Devils and render my opinion:

I'm PISSED OFF!!

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