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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Promise Me, Son, Not To Do the Things I've Done
2005-06-25 17:05
by Jon Weisman

Tonight's Game

* * *

Eric Gagne's surprisingly good surgery news gets discussed by Will Carroll in a special newsletter extra from Baseball Prospectus today.

He'll pitch with the same old ligament (nee tendon), but less of the nerve pulling, a similar problem to that which ended Brad Penny's season in 2004, albeit in a different location.

Some might question why Gagne's ligament wasn't replaced or overlayed in the modern technique, especially with an accelerated rehab schedule. It's hard to question Frank Jobe when it comes to a pitcher's elbow, but there could be some second guessing if Gagne is as slow to return as Penny was during the spring of 2005. Gagne's quotes about a replaced UCL having a limited life span will still echo in the heads of many Dodgers fans.

For now, the prognosis is roughly the same as before, with a bit more certainty that Gagne will be back in spring training. The key now is to make use of the impending six months of rehab to get his mechanics to such a stage that the elbow isn't restressed and that the National League is.

I might add that if Gagne needs an extra few weeks in 2006, as Penny did this past spring, let's not be hasty. Let's give them to him. Perhaps, let's even encourage him to take them, if he can't be trusted not to take risks.

It's funny how players like J.D. Drew and Odalis Perez get such grief for taking time to heal properly, when we so often see the pitfalls of coming back too soon. Of course, sometimes a quick return is successful without any consequences - other times it's successful with consequences. (Curt Schilling, anyone?) But very often, dashing back onto the field is downright foolhardy.

I guess some always have the suspicion that players who take their time with their recoveries are spineless, cowardly and yella, but cowardice sometimes can be a wonderful thing.

* * *

Lesson of the day: A winning clubhouse can be a quiet clubhouse.

From Albert Chen in this week's Sports Illustrated:

... the home locker room has the feel of a university library. A handful of St. Louis Cardinals shuffles across the carpet to their lockers, while a half-dozen others watch video of that night's opposing pitcher on a pair of TVs hanging from the ceiling. First baseman Albert Pujols sits upright in a chair, his eyes hungry for information, his fingers resting on the video controls so he can fast-forward and rewind at will. Ten minutes pass. No one utters a word.

* * *

Meanwhile, has a wee excerpt from a 1964 article by Robert Creamer on Vin Scully ...

When Vin Scully came to Los Angeles with the transplanted Brooklyn Dodgers, he was a stranger in alien corn. But he soon became as much a part of Southern California as the freeways. ...Out-of-town visitors at ball games in Dodger Stadium have Scully pointed out to them -- as though he were the Empire State Building -- as he sits in his broadcasting booth describing a game, his left hand lightly touching his temple in a characteristic pose that his followers dote on and which, for them, has come to be his trademark.

Comments (284)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-06-25 17:45:57
1.   Bob Timmermann
Random Dodger game callback

June 25, 1923

A mediocre Brooklyn team lost to a very bad Boston team on this day in 1923, falling 7-4 as ace Dazzy Vance didn't have his good stuff pitching in front of the home folks at Ebbets Field. The Dodgers fell to 30-29, 10 games out of first and in fifth place. Boston was already 20-42 and actually 1 ½ games ahead of last place Philadelphia.

The Dodgers got a quick 2-0 lead in the first inning when Jack Fournier hit a 2-run homer off of Boston starter Jesse Barnes. Boston tied the game in the top of the second when Bob Smith's grounder bounced off the shin of shortstop Jimmy Johnston into left field to plate two Braves to tie the game. Brooklyn would make four errors on the day.

In the third, Gus Felix led off with a single for Boston and went to second when outfielder Bert Griffith misplayed the ball. Stuffy McInnis then doubled home Felix to put Boston up 3-2.

In the fourth, Boston's Bob Smith led off with a triple and was singled home by Hod Ford. After two force outs, leadoff man Al Nixon was on first. Nixon then stole second and went to third on an overthrow by catcher Hank DeBerry and then came home when center fielder Bernie Neis fumbled the ball.

DeBerry tried to redeem his gaffe with a triple in the sixth. He would score on an Andy High sacrifice fly to make it 5-3 Boston.

Boston scored a run in the 8th when Earl Smith singled and Bob Smith doubled him home. After a walk to Ford, Barnes singled in Bob Smith to make it 7-3.

Johnston singled in pinch hitter Zack Taylor in the 9th for Brooklyn's final run. Brooklyn's other Zack (Wheat) sat out the game, according to the New York Times because of "heat".

Wheat's frequent absences no doubt hurt the Dodgers in 1923. The team finished in sixth place at 76-78, 19 ½ games behind the Giants. Wheat made it in to only 98 games, although he did bat .375 in that limited action. Fournier batted .351 with 22 homers, which was third best in average and second in homers in the NL.

The Dodgers couldn't settle on a double play combo. Johnston moved back between second and shortstop during the season. The Dodgers even tried out a young Ivy League graduate named Moe Berg out at shortstop for 49 games in 1923. Berg would leave the Dodgers and come back in the American League as a backup catcher and coach and then would go on to be a spy for the U.S. during World War II. Overall, Berg was an interesting, but pretty weird guy. Read the "Catcher Was a Spy" by Nicholas Dawidoff for more about the life of Berg.

Vance led the league in strikeouts for the second straight year (197) and went 18-15 with a 3.50 ERA. Burleigh Grimes finished 21-18 with a 3.58 ERA.

There were several Hall of Famers present at Ebbets Field that day. Brooklyn had manager Wilbert Robinson, Wheat, Grimes, Vance. Boston used future Hall of Fame umpire Jocko Conlon at third base. Although not a Hall of Famer, Boston outfielder Billy Southworth would manage teams to four NL pennants and 2 World Series titles. Hall of Fame pitcher Rube Marquard was on the 1923 Braves, but did not pitch on this day.

Brooklyn used a 20-year old pitcher named Paul Schreiber for nine games in 1923. Schreiber would not pitch in the major leagues again until 1945 when he appeared in a couple of games for the Yankees. For more of his story see:

Thanks to the New York Times, and Retrosheet

2005-06-25 17:52:25
2.   molokai
The difference between a quiet losing clubhouse and a winning one is Albert Pujols. If only we had been so lucky.
Bill Plaschke is just such an idiot he deserves his own Fire Bill Plaschke blog site. I'm not a big fan of JD Drew but his being quiet is not even on my list.
2005-06-25 17:58:33
3.   Bob Timmermann
I won't be watching tonight's game, so hope everyone has a good time.

I should be by tomorrow for one last game before I flee the country.

2005-06-25 18:30:19
4.   bigcpa
The second batch of TEAM DEPO shirts went out this week. I've got about 4 left over if anyone missed out. Email me at if you want one.
2005-06-25 18:37:48
5.   Fearing Blue
No Repko in the lineup tonight. It seems his scrappiness wasn't enough to make up for his current slump.
2005-06-25 18:41:02
6.   Steve
I wish Home Depo had a better return policy for defective merchandise.
2005-06-25 18:43:35
7.   Bob Timmermann
I assume Repko will get to enter as a defensive replacement as the Dodgers nurse their big lead into the late innings.
2005-06-25 18:44:28
8.   Bob Timmermann
But you know there is a house in New Orleans...

I think it's called the Rising Sun....

2005-06-25 18:46:58
9.   Bob Timmermann
And my mama was a tailor.

And she sewed my new blue jeans.

But my daddy was a gambling.

Down in New Orleans.

(Actually, I've never been to New Orleans.)

2005-06-25 18:52:47
10.   Benaiah

I know that alot of the things he does are just a big act, but man Shaq is awesome. He is far and away the most entertaining person in that sport.

2005-06-25 19:10:27
11.   Bob Timmermann
Those home runs hit by Dodgers DHs are a motley bunch.

Kreuter, Kinkade, and Saenz.

2005-06-25 19:15:15
12.   Fearing Blue
Vin just unintentionally pointed out why fielding percentage is irrelevant. Hee Seop Choi is 2nd among NL 1Bs, having only committed 1 error.
2005-06-25 19:15:53
13.   Marty
Man, walking Erstad is an accomplishment.
2005-06-25 19:19:42
14.   Steve
Hee's Got The Whole World In His Hands
2005-06-25 19:20:27
15.   Sam DC
Hey bob -- I won't be on tomorrow or Monday, so have one heck of a great time in the islands. sam
2005-06-25 19:21:28
16.   Fearing Blue
Stating the obvious: It would be really nice if Werth circa 2005 turns into Werth circa 2004.
2005-06-25 19:21:47
17.   Jim Hitchcock
Werth puts it in its berth!
2005-06-25 19:23:05
18.   Jim Hitchcock
Ervin Santana? Boy, parents can be so cruel...
2005-06-25 19:23:13
19.   Marty
Nice, Jim.
2005-06-25 19:23:38
20.   Marty
That was for 17.
2005-06-25 19:23:53
21.   Benaiah
16 - Not a bad place to start. I know that alot of people think of Dave Ross and big performances in small numbers when they look at Werth's 2004, but I don't think that is entirely the case. I think he could definately be a power threat/starting OF for quite awhile, assuming he doesn't catch any more fastballs with his wrists.
2005-06-25 19:24:33
22.   untitled instrumental demo
I missed did Choi get on?
2005-06-25 19:25:39
23.   Marty
I'll say again. I throw left and bat right. I didn't realkize it was a rare thing.
2005-06-25 19:26:26
24.   Benaiah
Ah Choi good to see you break your 0-this week slump. Choi is the epitome of a Dr Jekyll/Mr. Hyde player. His good side is Jessica Alba meets Mother Theresa, but the bad weeks... Rosanne Barr springs to mind.
2005-06-25 19:29:35
25.   Steve
Choi even steals bases. I find no fault in this man. :)
2005-06-25 19:31:11
26.   Jim Hitchcock
22 - he singled.

25 - Steve, you card, you.

2005-06-25 19:36:01
27.   Sam DC
So was 20 a backhanded way of saying that 18 wasn't funny?
2005-06-25 19:38:24
28.   Fearing Blue
We've been getting some horrible luck on balls not hit very hard.
2005-06-25 19:38:57
29.   Vishal
davanon's chopper to penny seems to me to be emblematic of his entire career. how scrappy.
2005-06-25 19:38:58
30.   Sam DC
Hee-Seop Choi is now tied with Carlos Beltran, Derek Lowe, and Jason Grabowski for stolen bases this year.
2005-06-25 19:39:54
31.   Fearing Blue
Beltre would have gotten that.
2005-06-25 19:40:26
32.   Fearing Blue
#31: For that matter, Cora could have made that play from second.
2005-06-25 19:40:45
33.   untitled instrumental demo
God forbid the Dodgers ever get a hit w/ men on base.
2005-06-25 19:41:01
34.   Jim Hitchcock
You just can't put a price on that kind of achievement, Sam.
2005-06-25 19:42:32
35.   Jim Hitchcock
Scrappy alert.
2005-06-25 19:43:08
36.   Vishal
my hatred level for the angels is increasing with every at-bat, and will soon enough be approaching "undying".
2005-06-25 19:44:40
37.   Steve
31 -- True or ironic? I'm watching Return of the Jedi with my kids.
2005-06-25 19:46:19
38.   untitled instrumental demo
Not sure how much more scrappy I can take
2005-06-25 19:46:35
39.   Sam DC
Re 34 -- I wonder if Carlos Beltran knows?

Re scrap -- can we please, please end this inning before Vladimir Guerrero shows up?

2005-06-25 19:46:51
40.   Benaiah
I think Penny is showing his support for Erickson. Well, he still hasn't given up any 600 foot home runs so I guess he is like good Erickson right now.
2005-06-25 19:46:54
41.   Fearing Blue
#31: Beltre might have knocked it down and held it to a single, but I don't think anyone but Alex Cora could have turned it into an out.
2005-06-25 19:48:39
42.   Fearing Blue
#38: This inning has been unbelievably scrappy. Walk, infield single (high bouncer to Penny), hard groundball double down the line, bloop/flare double over 3B, infield single to Izturis, stolen base.
2005-06-25 19:48:54
43.   overkill94
I think Izzy let the gold glove get to his head, that play was just annoyingly lackadaisical.
2005-06-25 19:49:42
44.   Jim Hitchcock
Dang, school, a blog, and kids? Just thinking about that makes me want a nap.
2005-06-25 19:49:48
45.   Fearing Blue
Izturis could have made the play on Figgins groundball. I don't think he realized how fast he was. Izturis double-clutched and turned to make the safe throw, when he could have been more aggressive / acrobatic.
2005-06-25 19:50:06
46.   Vishal
this is all so, so [s]crappy.
2005-06-25 19:51:01
47.   Steve
44 -- Three kids.
2005-06-25 19:51:21
48.   Jim Hitchcock
Guerrero and Erstad don't do scrappy well.
2005-06-25 19:51:46
49.   Fearing Blue
#37: I just watched Empire Strikes Back. Going to watch Return tomorrow. There are fewer inconsistencies than I expected between 4, 5, 6 and 1, 2, 3.
2005-06-25 19:52:16
50.   Steve
Figgins gets another meaningless stolen base for his arbitration collection.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-06-25 19:53:01
51.   Fearing Blue
#47: My two-year old isn't old enough to appreciate Star Wars, but he did grab his bat and start making light saber sounds. It was pretty cool, though I don't think my wife appreciated it.
2005-06-25 19:56:28
52.   Fearing Blue
Doh. Odalis Perez's line so far tonight in Tuscon: 2.0 IP; 5 H; 4 R/ER; 2 BB; 1 K; 0 HR. Las Vegas is losing 4 - 1 after two.
2005-06-25 19:56:55
53.   molokai
How was it meaningless? It kept them out of a potential DP. It was easy but it wasn't meaningless.
2005-06-25 19:57:15
54.   Jim Hitchcock
47 - Pretty impressive, Steve...Nothing like using your spare time to, say, eat and sleep, eh?
2005-06-25 19:58:20
55.   Steve
There was much consternation over the decision to not allow the four and a half year old to see Revenge of the Sith. I argued that having watched the Dodger pitching staff for much of April and May with me, she had seen all the gory, flesh-searing, self-immolations that a little girl could possibly experience.

That argument earned a very constitutional veto.

2005-06-25 19:59:55
56.   Fearing Blue
Carlos Alvarez pitched a perfect inning in relief in his first appearance for Jacksonville (1 K) after putting up a ridiculous line for Columbus: 38.2 IP; 24 H; 9 R / 4 ER; 0 HR; 12 BB; 63 K.
2005-06-25 20:00:25
57.   Steve
54 -- only the first year of law school is really bad. We've had a lot of family bonding. My wife is ready to get me out of the house for awhile. The firm I'm going to feels the same way. The blog will likely be the first to go.

Then the kids. :)

2005-06-25 20:01:12
58.   Fearing Blue
#56: I believe Alvarez is molokai's sleeper. He's currently passed my guy, Kuo.
2005-06-25 20:01:38
59.   alex 7
where's my PROFESSIONAL AT BAT! sign?
2005-06-25 20:01:48
60.   Steve
Stolen bases lead to runs, runs, runs! All runs, all the time. Piles and piles of runs! Oodles of runs! Runs like runs have never been scored before!
2005-06-25 20:03:01
61.   Fearing Blue
#58: Nevermind, Kuo was promoted to Jacksonville as well. That team is officially ridiculous.
2005-06-25 20:05:24
62.   Fearing Blue
Wow, they left the bases loaded. Never seen that before.
2005-06-25 20:05:27
63.   Vishal
walks, however, don't lead to squat.
2005-06-25 20:05:41
64.   alex 7
baseball torture.
2005-06-25 20:05:50
65.   Steve
Worst at-bat...ever
2005-06-25 20:06:50
66.   Benaiah
He averages 7 pitches an AB yesterday and promptly does that with the bases loaded today.
2005-06-25 20:07:16
67.   stubbs
my main beef with moneyball, you need to have guys that can knock in all these walks. not guys who take 3-1 pitches right down the middle.
2005-06-25 20:07:30
68.   fanerman91
2005-06-25 20:07:58
69.   overkill94
I would be shocked if we didn't have the worst BA w/ RISP in the national league, let alone the majors.
2005-06-25 20:09:15
70.   Steve
Werth -- solo home run, strike out with bases loaded.

Who does this remind me of? Who? Someone in the not so recent past? Can't think...

2005-06-25 20:10:09
71.   fanerman91
2005-06-25 20:10:30
72.   patsweetpat
Seems like whenever we see Lackey in the dugout he's got his mouth open. Just resting like that. "Catching flies," as my father used to say.

John Lackey needs to learn to breathe through his nose.

2005-06-25 20:10:31
73.   stubbs
7 up 7 down karros?
2005-06-25 20:10:53
74.   stubbs
7 up 7 down karros
2005-06-25 20:11:46
75.   Steve
2005-06-25 20:12:45
76.   Jim Hitchcock
Hey, I'm a mouth breather, Pat...firmly believe that noses are like guitars. For picking.
2005-06-25 20:13:13
77.   the OZ
67 - hence the "plus slugging" component of OPS.

It works both ways, though. A bunch of sluggers that hit the ball hard with low OBPs won't score a ton of runs, either. The key is to have both aspects, or get really lucky by having all your hits in one inning.

Like the Angels did in the 2nd inning.

2005-06-25 20:15:13
78.   Steve
Part of the problem here is that this team would probably not be good at Big Ball, Earl Ball, Small Ball, Smart Ball, Larry Ball, Billy Ball, or any other kind of ball.
2005-06-25 20:15:30
79.   stubbs
77-i think thats the whole beef. Is there a such thing as timely hitting? Im in the camp that thinks it not entirely luck, but guys like jayson werth get a higher ops by homering when it isn't as important.
2005-06-25 20:15:42
80.   fanerman91
Hopefully the 2nd inning was when they got all their hits.
2005-06-25 20:16:05
81.   Fearing Blue
#61: The following pitchers are legitimate prospects on the Jacksonville staff, along with their upside:

Chad Billingsley - #1/2 starter
Edwin Jackson - #1/2 starter
Jonathan Broxton - #3/4 starter / closer
Hong-Chih Kuo - #3/4 starter / closer
Justin Orenduff - #3/4 starter / middle-reliever
Carlos Alvarez - closer / setup man
Joel Hanrahan - #4/5 starter
Eric Hull - #5 starter / middle-reliever
William Juarez - #5 starter / middle-reliever

2005-06-25 20:18:52
82.   Sam DC
AZ up 1-0 in the Sixth at Detroit. Tigers have 2 on , no outs, however, the inestimable Rondell White at bat.
2005-06-25 20:19:26
83.   Sam DC
White hits into a DP -- note, too, that the game is in AZ, not Detroit. (Bob -- we really are going to miss you.)
2005-06-25 20:20:34
84.   Fearing Blue
With a .259 average with RISP, the Dodgers are 22nd out of 30 in the majors, and 10th out of 16 in the NL. Of course, that's still inflated by our 12-2 run at the beginning of the season.
2005-06-25 20:20:47
85.   Steve
You know, this whole "Dodger Pitching Staff Can't Get Jeff DaVanon Out" is just enough to make me think that there are worse times ahead this year.
2005-06-25 20:21:25
86.   Sam DC
Pudge singled to tie it up in AZ.
2005-06-25 20:23:06
87.   Steve
I'm also confused by all this talk about "walks." What are walks? Is that something that we can get that would get us on base and not get out? It's something we should look into.
2005-06-25 20:24:44
88.   Steve
Of course, our 30 million dollar pitcher can hand out three walks in four innings to the "non-Moneyball" team.
2005-06-25 20:25:11
89.   Fearing Blue
#79: In most cases where people think someone is "clutch" or "not clutch" it's not true. It's usually reporter or fan-speak for "I do / don't like that guy". There may be a very small number of players who actually are or are not "clutch", but the vast majority are just living within the statistical variances of small sample sizes. Even Drew, who you have often described as "not clutch" has hit just as well with RISP as with the bases empty over the past three years (.297/.410/.533 vs. .293/.409/.531 respectively).
2005-06-25 20:26:07
90.   Steve
I find it easier to just say "I don't like that guy."

Like Andruw Jones. I don't like that guy.

2005-06-25 20:28:57
91.   Fearing Blue
#89: Re: Jayson Werth. This season his numbers with RISP are much better than with bases empty (.304/.433/.522 vs. .217/.288/.317 respectively). Werth is clutch! Over the past three years, the splits are again remarkably similar (.241/.331/.393 vs. .239/.312/.431 respectively). Oh, nevermind, I guess he's not clutch.
2005-06-25 20:29:53
92.   Vishal

i brought that up in the last game thread, i believe. someone (stubbs, maybe?) was complaining about drew's lack of clutchness, and i pointed out his career stats with RISP are just as good, if not better, than his normal stats.

i'm not sure i believe in clutch hitting. there may be a few individuals who are able to do it oonsistently, but they are very few and far between.

2005-06-25 20:31:43
93.   Steve
92 -- It appears Jayson Werth can do it, despite today's evidence to the contrary.

Or not, given the last three years to the contrary of the first proposition.

Is Cody Ross clutch?

2005-06-25 20:31:45
94.   Vishal
by the way, can the izturis-at-leadoff exercise at least be put on hold for a little while? i'd rather see a. perez put there.
2005-06-25 20:32:21
95.   Jim Hitchcock
I really don't like baseball people with mispelled first names.

I really, really don't like Jimy Williams.

Wow, I'm impersonating Bob.

2005-06-25 20:34:56
96.   Xeifrank
Not a great night for the Dodgers so far, trailing 3-1. Luckily, they aren't having as bad a night as the LA Galaxy who are now trailing San Jose 3-0 after one of the Galaxy players scored a beautiful header goal. Unfortunately, he scored in the wrong goal!
vr, Xei
2005-06-25 20:35:28
97.   the OZ
Jim - You must hate Mr. Figgins and Werth then too, eh?
2005-06-25 20:35:47
98.   Steve
I haven't complained about Tracy's lineup construction lately. Put the following players in a lineup:

Izturis, Edwards, Werth, Ross, Rose, Bad Choi

One or several of them is going to be hitting somewhere they don't belong. Like somewhere from spots 1-9.

2005-06-25 20:37:28
99.   Xeifrank
ESPN pointed out during highlights of the Mets/Yankees game that their combined payroll was something like $315 million combined (don't remember the exact number) and their combined record was 73-73. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.
vr, Xei
2005-06-25 20:38:34
100.   Fearing Blue
There's a somewhat depressing article regarding Norihiro Nakamura by the Suns writer, Nick Christensen:

I really wanted Nakamura to be successful, but he sure did look bad when he was up here.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-06-25 20:39:26
101.   Fearing Blue
#98: It's unforuntate Tracy can't just put "Good Choi" in the lineup and make it so.
2005-06-25 20:41:23
102.   Christina
Evening all. I was at last night's A's-Giants game and mercifully missed the disaster of the Dodgers-Angels game, though I did have to look at the score on the scoreboard in the outfield. Ouch. At least at 3-1 currently, this game's still winnable. Though I fear that the Dodgers and the As can never win on the same day. (Well, it has happened, but only like three times this season. Sigh.)
2005-06-25 20:41:46
103.   stubbs
i guess im part of the media fans speak. there are guys that like pressure and those that dont, not statistical variances. off the top of my head, jim leyritz, derek jeter and Manny Ramirez. Havent looked at the stats but those guy always "seem" to come up big.

i believe i said drew was average with risp, awful this year, good last year.

2005-06-25 20:41:48
104.   Fearing Blue
Has anyone heard if Milwaukee is considering trading Carlos Lee if they fall out of contention?
2005-06-25 20:43:07
105.   bokonon42
98- Wash your mouth out with soap, immediately. Bad Choi? No such thing.
2005-06-25 20:44:03
106.   Jim Hitchcock
97 - Well, I refuse to think that Chone is to be pronounced Sean. To me, it rhymes with Joan. End of story.

But yes, the Y in Jayson is prestentious. I mean, really, one out of every two male children in this country are named Jason, and you want to pretend yours is somehow different?

2005-06-25 20:44:19
107.   Xeifrank
104. Haven't heard anything. Has anyone heard if the Dodgers are considering trading Jeff Kent if they fall out of contention?
vr, Xei
2005-06-25 20:45:29
108.   stubbs
any word on odalis tonight?

two packs of cigarettes...nokamura is sad situation.

2005-06-25 20:46:01
109.   the OZ
I always say it "Choan." It's more fun that way.

Vin mentioned earlier that the full name is actually "DeChone." I'll call that Dee-Choan.

2005-06-25 20:46:39
110.   Vishal
looking it up, jeter does NOT do better with RISP. manny does, however. but then, manny's a monster no matter what the situation. didn't bother to check for leyritz.
2005-06-25 20:48:48
111.   Steve
103 -- Don't take that Derek Jeter talk over to Primer. Just a friendly warning. :)

105 -- I am a bad person. I shall subject myself to three innings of Ken Harrelson in penance.

2005-06-25 20:50:38
112.   the OZ
RE: Leyritz, sometimes all it takes is one hit to earn the "clutch" tag forever and ever. That's one reason it's dangerous to make roster decisions with "clutchness" as even a marginal factor.

At the very least, I think we can all agree that above-average clutch hitting is, as a general rule, not something that shows up consistently in a player from season to season.

2005-06-25 20:51:34
113.   bokonon42
I'm still not a fan of Rick Monday's, but he's not so bad teamed with Steiner. Much better than Downing/Steiner, which was nearly insufferable in KC and CHI. I don't understand why they don't just simulcast Scully. I'm sure that someday, years from now, I'll have to get used to Dodger baseball without Vin, but why should it be today, just because I wasn't in front of the tube?
2005-06-25 20:52:24
114.   bokonon42
111- Thou shalt not take the name of Choi in vain, buster.
2005-06-25 20:52:32
115.   Fearing Blue
Manny Ramirez:
None on: .236/.326/.394
RISP: .356/.451/.863
Close and late: .194/.265/.258
None on: .308/.383/.597
RISP: .364/.514/.665
Close and late: .279/.410/.411

Manny steps up for the RBI, but falls apart when the game is on the line?

Derek Jeter:
None on: .313/.399/.495
RISP: .217/.319/.367
Close and late: .289/.357/.421
None on: .298/.365/.458
RISP: .308/.389/.430
Close and late: .237/.343/.365

Derek used to be average in the clutch, but he's lost that clutchy feeling, now it's gone, gone, gone?

2005-06-25 20:55:15
116.   Christina
10 foul balls at Werth's AB?? Wow.
2005-06-25 20:55:36
117.   Steve
112 -- that's what I was thinking. Bucky Dent as clutch. Well, I guess.

114 -- Your god is a cruel god. Must I listen to six innings of Harrelson? Or nine?

2005-06-25 20:56:36
118.   Fearing Blue
#107: I sincerely doubt it, since Kent is signed through 2006. There really isn't much available on the expected free agent market for 2B or 3B.
2005-06-25 20:58:05
119.   Fearing Blue
#112: As opposed to clutchness, how about clutchiness or clutchiosity?
2005-06-25 20:59:57
120.   Fearing Blue
#116: Almost Cora-esque. I'm still amazed that Cora's (18-pitch?) HR was on a 2-2 count.
2005-06-25 21:00:34
121.   untitled instrumental demo
Can anybody stomach this team anymore? I know it could be worse but I'm not sure why the Dodgers even bother to bat every inning...just put a doughnut on the scoreboard and see if whoever's starting can help us lose by less than 3 runs.

I hate being this defeatist...I know it will turn around. I just hope it's not too late.

2005-06-25 21:02:04
122.   Jim Hitchcock
Yeah, Bokonon, Monday fits in rather well as color man, unlike Downing, who juswt seems to drone on.

I say put Fred Wallin in the booth. I mention that because the last time I brought up his name on DT, he sent me an e-mail thanking me, which was pretty cool.

2005-06-25 21:02:10
123.   Fearing Blue
Ervin's name used to be Johan, and the Dodgers sure are doing their best to make him look like his original namesake.
2005-06-25 21:02:30
124.   bokonon42
117- I was going to tell you to forget it, that Choi is as munificent as he is mighty. But I just read the earlier part of this thread and you seem to be a recidivist (65). SINNER! There will be no mercy this time. Beg all you like, but it's naught but fire, brimstone, and ill-executed sac bunts where you're going.
2005-06-25 21:03:05
125.   Fearing Blue
#121: I'm trying not to pay too much attention. I just keep sipping my drink and reading DT.
2005-06-25 21:04:31
126.   Fearing Blue
#124: Haha.. Steve's hell = Mike Scioscia managing the Dodgers :).
2005-06-25 21:06:52
127.   Fearing Blue
That's two off-the-wall doubles tonight. If Rose and Perez were just a little bit stronger, the game would be tied at 3 - 3.
2005-06-25 21:07:48
128.   bokonon42
Scioscia used to be so clutch.
2005-06-25 21:09:46
129.   bokonon42
Maybe he still is. Can managers be clutch? I mean, if there's no such thing, they should be allowed to get in on that racket.
2005-06-25 21:09:50
130.   Steve
Does Cesar Izturis lead off in hell too?
2005-06-25 21:14:41
131.   bokonon42
Alfredo Griffen leads off in hell, SINNER. Actually, he's platooned with Tom Goodwin.
2005-06-25 21:14:43
132.   Nagman
For those that missed it, apparently it has already been decided that Kent is being given the day off tomorrow.

I predict a season low number of posts at DT.

2005-06-25 21:14:44
133.   the OZ
Whoa, that video range-tracker thing was cool!

For those not watching the telecast, they just showed a video-efect thing that captured and held frames of the infielders converge on a groundball toward the middle. You could see the path they tookd to the ball and how far they came. Kent went a long way to make the play.

2005-06-25 21:14:56
134.   untitled instrumental demo
If everyone is healthy...this is the lineup I would like to see.

Phillips (if only because he K's the least)

2005-06-25 21:15:38
135.   bokonon42
You'll love watching Goodwin at short. It'll teach you to appreciate Offerman.
2005-06-25 21:15:55
136.   Dodgerkid
Why is injury prone Penny pitching 115+ pitches?
2005-06-25 21:16:18
137.   Benaiah
I guess this is the opposite of scattering hits.
2005-06-25 21:16:21
138.   Dodgerkid
If Penny goes down with injury, I will demand Tracy's firing and arrest.
2005-06-25 21:16:42
139.   Jim Hitchcock
133 - it's like acid without the illegalities...
2005-06-25 21:16:45
140.   Steve
Far be it from lowly me to suggest my own punishment for this sort of thing, but poorly executed sac bunts would at least give me something to rail against, providing me with endless enjoyment. A perfect hell, O Mighty Choi Elder, would be a neverending hell of perfectly placed bunts right down the third base line, with Joe Morgan calling every one of them.

Something for your consideration.

2005-06-25 21:18:53
141.   Steve
132 -- that means Edwards at 3B, and an outfield chosen out of three of Ross/Repko/Grabowski/Werth

Mr. Bokonon, sir. I'm already in hell.

2005-06-25 21:20:30
142.   Benaiah
134 - Philips strikes out the least? Didn't he strike out everytime up last game? Phillips is the 8 and Choi is the number 2. Also, while Izzy has been a trainwreck recently, he pretty much was the sparkplug on offense in the beginning. No one thought he was going to hit .340 for the year, but .300 wouldn't shock me. No way Izzy gets the Cora treatment!
2005-06-25 21:21:32
143.   untitled instrumental demo
ooh! is it our turn to get some breaks??
2005-06-25 21:23:18
144.   bokonon42
If J.D. Drew were here, he'd holler at you guys to buck up. Only down by two, this game ain't over!
2005-06-25 21:24:51
145.   Nagman
JD Drew wouldn't be able to type because his fingers hurt.
2005-06-25 21:26:13
146.   stubbs
werth's second clutch AB coming
2005-06-25 21:26:15
147.   untitled instrumental demo
Including his 5 k's the last 2 games, Phillips has 23 for the season. That's LoDuca level...If Cesar would learn to walk more, I'd leave him #2.
2005-06-25 21:27:08
148.   bokonon42
See? Saenz isn't quitting. Here comes the Cavalry. (not to be confused wath Calvary, where Steve betrayed OUR LOVING SAVIOR)
2005-06-25 21:27:15
149.   Fearing Blue
After his performance tonight (4.2 IP; 7 H; 5 R/ER; 1 K; 0 HR), will Perez be given another rehab start, thus, once again, delaying Erickson's departure?
2005-06-25 21:28:41
150.   Fearing Blue
#143: When I originally read your post, I figured the most likely "break" would be another injury. Let's hope Werth is Ok, because at least he's better than Repko.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-06-25 21:29:45
151.   untitled instrumental demo
A dead monkey is better than Repko right now.
2005-06-25 21:30:39
152.   Nagman
I'm tired of seeing "good at-bats" that end in outs. How 'bout something different...
2005-06-25 21:30:42
153.   stubbs
once you've worn out the starting pitcher to get to middle relief, does moneyball encourage the batter to wear down the middle relief?
2005-06-25 21:31:42
154.   Steve
149 -- OK. You know what? I'm a little bit tired of all the losing and the can't hit stuff. So I get down on Choi for one night. One night! And now you and your crony want to send me to hell, make me watch Alfredo Griffin bunt, AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT YOU KEEP BRINGING UP THE FACT THAT SCOTT ERICKSON LIVES!!!! Have you no sense of decency? Have you no mercy? Have you no shame, sir?

And now Repko's probably going to get picked off of first.

2005-06-25 21:31:58
155.   bokonon42
No, no, no, Vin. Choi is Jesus. At best, Werth is Jayson the Baptist.
2005-06-25 21:32:41
156.   Jim Hitchcock
Oh, hope, how fickle you are.
2005-06-25 21:32:53
157.   Nagman
I take it back, I would be grateful for a good at-bat that produced just a single out.
2005-06-25 21:32:58
158.   Fearing Blue
#153: Moneyball = finding innefficiencies in player evaluation in order to build a winning team on the cheap. Even though people may suggest otherwise, it doesn't really prescribe a specific style of play.
2005-06-25 21:33:21
159.   stubbs
im heading out for the night, as moneyball fails us yet again. good night fellas.
2005-06-25 21:34:24
160.   Jim Hitchcock
155 - Maybe that was an Ian Anderson reference to Jethro Tull's `A Passion Play'.
2005-06-25 21:34:26
161.   Steve
Like I said before, it's hard to describe this team as anything other than, say, Loserball. (High and Holy Choi excluded!)
2005-06-25 21:34:35
162.   Christina
158 - thank you. I don't think stubbs has even read the book, judging from the posts he's made.
2005-06-25 21:35:41
163.   bokonon42
I think I agree with stubbs, now. He's won me over. I say we find Michael Lewis and burn him alive like the witch he is.
2005-06-25 21:36:19
164.   Fearing Blue
#154: Alfredo Griffin leading off every game trying bunt to for a hit, with Mike Scioscia giving him a congratulatory pat on the back every time he trots back to the dugout after giving up a free out. That's not just your hell, Steve.
2005-06-25 21:36:37
165.   Steve
162 -- He's Joe Morgan? My hell only gets hotter.
2005-06-25 21:36:39
166.   Nagman
I would prefer Wunsch not make that play in that fashion in the future (throwing the ball with his glove hand when not necessary).
2005-06-25 21:37:13
167.   stubbs
162-christina- i actually read the book 3 years ago, when paul depodesta was just a fantasy at the headquarters of Frank Mccourt inc.
2005-06-25 21:38:05
168.   Fearing Blue
#163: First we should tar and feather him, and I would suggest boiling in hot oil to make sure we cook off all the witchiness.
2005-06-25 21:38:18
169.   Steve
Darin Erstad says, let's just get this game to K-Rod and go home.

K-Rod's been throwing badly. Not that it will help us, since even after Choi hits his solo home run to lead off the inning, Edwards, Ross, and Grabowski will be following.

2005-06-25 21:39:14
170.   the OZ
158 -

It is moneyball's fault that Werth is not 'clutch'.

The Dodgers have outhit the Angels by a factor of two and scored only one run, yet trail because of their 'moneyball philosophy.'

moneyball is the reason that hee seop choi is a terrible terrible player.

moneyball is the reason Antonio Perez dropped a pop fly.

What. Ever.

2005-06-25 21:39:19
171.   Steve
I, myself, am always glad when we pack an extra Wunsch.
2005-06-25 21:39:38
172.   alex 7
stubbs = Plaschke
2005-06-25 21:40:02
173.   Fearing Blue
I hope Grabowski makes it up so I can see his called-third-strike look of anger and disbelief.
2005-06-25 21:40:30
174.   Steve
I have it on good authority, from secret sources, that Michael Lewis is the President of the Cody Ross Fan Club.

Must credit TMQ!! Or something like that.

2005-06-25 21:40:30
175.   bokonon42
So the masks are coming off tonight. stubbs is Joe Morgan, and Fearing Blue is John Ashcroft.
2005-06-25 21:41:48
176.   Steve
173 -- NO! Power of Positive Thinking! The last time Grabowski came up, I willed him to a broken-bat single. I have powers over this man. We are one with the Grabowski.
2005-06-25 21:42:34
177.   Fearing Blue
#172: And from a previous thread, Plaschke = Urine. Due to the transitive property, I don't think stubbs will be pleased with your name-calling, alex.
2005-06-25 21:43:11
178.   alex 7
hey, I feel a little excited. could this be?
2005-06-25 21:43:30
179.   the OZ
Has anyone read 'Liar's Poker?' It's Lewis' book about Wall Street in the 80s, when he was a bond salesman. I'm about to start reading it.

Of course, pundits have long blamed the recession of the late 80s on Lewis' backward 'liarspoker' philosophies.

2005-06-25 21:43:30
180.   Fearing Blue
#175: Ick, I'd rather be Joe Morgan.
2005-06-25 21:44:41
181.   Nagman
Sad. We're going to lose a game when the opposing team hasn't had a base hit since the 2nd inning.
2005-06-25 21:44:55
182.   alex 7
lol, for the gameday viewers, please describe how a major league hitter watches three strikes in a row. What happened? Did he have a fly in his eye the whole at bat?
2005-06-25 21:45:10
183.   Steve
Jason Phillips! That's...that's...


2005-06-25 21:45:52
184.   Fearing Blue
"Let the eagles sore. Like they've never sored before. From rocky coast to costal shore. Let the eagles sore."

If he wasn't so scary, Ashcroft would be a pretty amusing guy.

2005-06-25 21:45:59
185.   Steve
Love the Liar's Poker. It has three chapters about Hee Seop Choi.

But seriously, love the Liar's Poker.

2005-06-25 21:46:39
186.   untitled instrumental demo
Maybe someone could get a conference call set up with Lou Piniella so he could rip this team cause I doubt Tracy is either willing or capable...I don't know if that ever does any good but if any team has earned it, it is the June 2005 Dodgers.
2005-06-25 21:46:43
187.   Steve
Well, they were soaring, weren't they? Contextually, that makes more sense. :)
2005-06-25 21:46:49
188.   Fearing Blue
#182: The last pitch was a nasty curveball.
2005-06-25 21:47:45
189.   Fearing Blue
#187: Thanks.. all this losing is making me forget how to spell (or perhaps it's the alcohol that goes along with the losing).
2005-06-25 21:47:54
190.   Jim Hitchcock
184 - No kidding. At least Lee Atwater could play a decent guitar.
2005-06-25 21:47:56
191.   the OZ
#77 is making me especially sad in retrospect.
2005-06-25 21:49:26
192.   the OZ
Mike Rose will reach to ensure that Izturis can make the last out by swiging at a 3-1 pitch at his eyes.
2005-06-25 21:51:03
193.   Fearing Blue
#192: I had a feeling that was the more likely outcome. Career minor leaguer against K-Rod = K.
2005-06-25 21:51:05
194.   Nagman
what was that sound bite Jim Healey used to play? "Bad team, man, bad $($*%&W team."
2005-06-25 21:51:55
195.   los angeles dragons
if this game was at dodger stadium I'd be there throwing debris onto the field about now
2005-06-25 21:52:04
196.   untitled instrumental demo
1 run. 9 hits. at least 2 walks.

I'm not watching tomorrow.

I may not watch again until they win 3 in a row...prob around august.

2005-06-25 21:53:36
197.   Fearing Blue
Proposed lineup without Bradley, Drew, and Kent:

Izturis (SS)
Perez (2B)
Werth (CF)
Saenz (DH)
Choi (1B)
Phillips (C)
Grabowski (LF)
Ross (RF)
Edwards (3B)

Quite the team we'd be trotting out.

2005-06-25 21:55:25
198.   Nagman
I'd like to see Erickson face that lineup. Maybe I really wouldn't.
2005-06-25 21:56:14
199.   Linkmeister
So I finish dinner in time to see one out, bottom of the ninth, Choi on first, and the next two "hitters" fail miserably.

Then the SCSR tells me the Dodgers are 0-12 with RISP in these two games.


2005-06-25 21:57:26
200.   Steve
That might be the worst lineup in the majors tomorrow (Choi excluded!)


1) Choi draws his second walk in six weeks.

2) Tracy uses Phillips instead of dying with Cody Ross. Such is progress.

3) Tracy doesn't bunt because "You have to get to Izturis in that situation."

4) Perez can do whatever he wants in the field if he can keep hitting .340. But a little bird tells me that Plaschke is going to come out tomorrow and call this "Tony's team," sending Perez into a 3-217 slump that gets him DFAed and signed by the Mets to backup Kaz Matsui.

So there's that.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-06-25 21:58:06
201.   Steve
That lineup can hit Erickson. They have faced AAA pitching all year.
2005-06-25 21:58:36
202.   bokonon42
Since Fearing Blue seems shy about his identity, I'll announce this for him. Coming up on Fox News Channel: At Large with Geraldo Rivera.
2005-06-25 22:02:16
203.   Fearing Blue
#202: It amused me greatly that "journalist" Geraldo Rivera threatened to shave his mustache if Michael Jackson was found guilty.
2005-06-25 22:02:38
204.   bokonon42
In case you didn't switch directly over, yes, he's talking about Aruba.
2005-06-25 22:03:54
205.   Fearing Blue
Another great Ashcroft story is that he called all his hispanic direct reports into an early morning meeting to translate his "song" into Spanish.
2005-06-25 22:05:04
206.   Fearing Blue
#204: I'm concerned that if I turn on Fox News, my head will explode, so you'll have to give me the play-by-play.
2005-06-25 22:07:33
207.   bokonon42
205-LOL. I hadn't heard that. What a caring and sensitive man. He wouldn't boil anyone in oil, even a witch. You must be somebody else. I'm not great with dates, is Torquemada dead?
2005-06-25 22:08:07
208.   los angeles dragons
Joey Greco from "Cheaters" is more of an investigative journalist than Gerlado
2005-06-25 22:08:32
209.   Jim Hitchcock
205 - Seems I heard that somewhere. Too funny.
The Klavern of the Klueless at the top, I guess.

Ya gotta hand it to the people of Missouri for voting a dead man in as Senator over John Boy, though.

2005-06-25 22:11:22
210.   Fearing Blue
#209: I get all my news from Jon Stewart, so you probably heard it there as well.
2005-06-25 22:11:44
211.   Steve
I am turning you all in to Karl, right now.
2005-06-25 22:14:13
212.   Jim Hitchcock
Ah yes, Karl Rove, AKA the melty Nazi in `Raiders of the Lost Ark'.
2005-06-25 22:15:56
213.   los angeles dragons
212- Was he that Nazi? I thought the melty one was Cheney
2005-06-25 22:17:05
214.   Steve
2005-06-25 22:19:56
215.   Steve
I've been drummed out of the Choi Party. I'll be drummed out of the GOP. Where will I go?

I must find comfort among my enemies. I wonder if SoxTalk is still open?

2005-06-25 22:20:49
216.   Fearing Blue
Two things from the Daily Show that never get old:

1) NAMBLA references
2) Jon calling someone a douche

2005-06-25 22:21:38
217.   Fearing Blue
#215: Be careful, I've heard the Republicans like Smart Ball, though it's likely better than Loser Ball.
2005-06-25 22:21:50
218.   bokonon42
You filthy heathens can pick on Karl without me. I have to go find a bible; I'm running low on Choi allusions.
2005-06-25 22:23:18
219.   bokonon42
And nobody use Pontius Tracy. That is so (tm)-ed.
2005-06-25 22:24:50
220.   Jim Hitchcock
Stewart does the perfect `what were they thinking?' look. Greg Kinnear used to do it pretty well on `Talk Soup'.
2005-06-25 22:24:51
221.   Steve
The favorite play of all politicians is hit and run.

I don't like the hit and run.

2005-06-25 22:26:25
222.   Fearing Blue
#221: Democrats are masters of the failed bunt attempt.
2005-06-25 22:28:14
223.   Steve
That basically sums up Kerry 2004. I can't disagree with that.
2005-06-25 22:30:08
224.   Jim Hitchcock
Yep and Yep. And now look where we are...
2005-06-25 22:31:52
225.   Steve
Memo to Democrats:

Your 2008 nominee is Tennessee. You won't listen to me, so there's no risk of giving anything away.

2005-06-25 22:32:23
226.   Steve
That should read:

Your nominee is in Tennessee.

2005-06-25 22:33:00
227.   Fearing Blue
Perhaps Tracy is the mastermind behind the Democratic party?
2005-06-25 22:35:40
228.   Fearing Blue
#226: Who are you thinking? I'm partial to Barack Obama.
2005-06-25 22:36:40
229.   Jim Hitchcock
Ya think, Steve? Think Al's days in the circus are behind us.

Really hard to get excited about the presumptive choices. You know who I'm talkin' about.

2005-06-25 22:38:13
230.   Steve
No no no no

Al Gore? Yikes. I'm trying to help you here, at risk of my Party Card.

Phil Bredesen!

2005-06-25 22:39:13
231.   Jim Hitchcock
Think Obama lacks the experience. Need to learn more about Finegold. Like Biden...he's at least a straight shooter, kinda reminecent of what McCain used to be like.
2005-06-25 22:39:58
232.   bokonon42
225- Harold Ford?
2005-06-25 22:41:25
233.   Fearing Blue
#229: The fat-guy with the crazy beard phase probably wasn't good for Al's future political aspirations.

Prior to his hiatus, I was surprised how qualified Gore was. Served in Vietnam, 8 years in the House, 8 years in the Senate, 8 years as the Vice-President. It's too bad about that whole lack of personality.

2005-06-25 22:41:28
234.   bokonon42
Oh. Nevermind.

By the way, I love Project Gutenberg, but there King James Bible may be a prank. I'm pretty sure there isn't a profit called Jeremy.

2005-06-25 22:42:00
235.   bokonon42
Their, even.
2005-06-25 22:43:19
236.   Fearing Blue
#231: Experience is bad. It plays well in the primaries, but hurts you in the national election. I'd rather have a young, charismatic individual who hasn't done much.
2005-06-25 22:45:09
237.   Jim Hitchcock
233 - Made even worse the phony personality his handlers installed in him.

You know what he did before becoming a pol? Investigative journalism. Remember that?

2005-06-25 22:46:21
238.   Jim Hitchcock
236 - You know, I absolutely have no disagreement with that.
2005-06-25 22:46:58
239.   bokonon42
Feingold isn't, and hasn't ever been, married. Could be a problem. And I'm not sure his and McCain's CFR bill is so popular any more.
2005-06-25 22:48:32
240.   bokonon42
I'm a moron. He was married, and divorced. Then he was married. And divorced again. I was thinking of Lindsay Graham.
2005-06-25 22:51:12
241.   Jim Hitchcock
Yeah, CFR was a masquerade for what we really need. Real reform.

A good place to start would be to demand free time on the airwaves that we own, and lease for practically nothing. That alone would take a hell of a lot of money out of politics.

2005-06-25 22:52:34
242.   Fearing Blue
#238: My belief is that the ideal democratic candidate would be:

1) Young
2) Charismatic
3) Religious
4) From the South or Mid-West
5) Politically inexperienced
6) Preferably a minority

In the end, the national election is just a popularity contest, so we should play to it instead of pushing over-qualified robots.

2005-06-25 22:54:41
243.   Fearing Blue
#241: Unfortunately, balancing CFR with Free Speech is so compliicated. Steve, do you have any ideas now that you are a Constitutional expert?
2005-06-25 22:57:27
244.   Jim Hitchcock
242 - I like that idea quite a lot, Blue.

And I would add, whateve else, keep Bob Shrum
from running the campaign.

2005-06-25 23:12:43
245.   Steve
I don't believe in CFR -- hence Jerry's cryptic message about my adversion to all things McCain over at my site.

236 -- is exactly right. Nominate She Who Will Not Be Named or Biden and you'll feel like you're in a 2000/2004 timewarp...while those Great Lakes states keep bleeding red. Bredesen is the best of FB's six. He's not a minority, but if you name Ken Salazar as Veep candidate, you're well on your way to a ticket that, hey, might actually win.

2005-06-25 23:12:54
246.   bokonon42
241- I take exactly the opposite view, actually. I think politicians should not be allowed on T.V. Television is for sports, Law and Order, and, after ten p.m., soft-core pornography. Even C-Span is better on the weekends when they ignore politicians.
2005-06-25 23:17:21
247.   bokonon42
I hate his CFR crusade, but I love McCain the way Plaschke loves LoDuca. I don't think he'll run again (he hasn't looked well for five years) and that may be for the best. I'm the poorest guy I know, but I sent him twenty-five bucks, in 2000, and I registered as a Republican so that my vote for him in the primary would count.
2005-06-25 23:20:07
248.   Fearing Blue
#245: Bredesen's biography sure makes him sound like a good guy:

How did you hear about him?

2005-06-25 23:21:02
249.   patsweetpat
Voluntary public funding (a.k.a. "Clean Elections," see the state of Arizona) solves the constitutional issues that arise in campaign finance reform. Clean candidates (i.e.: those who promise to voluntarily forgo traditional fundraising) are simply cut a check equal to the amount raised by their traditionally-funded opponents. IOW, if a traditional candidate throws a big fundraiser to glad-hand and prostitute himself (and his future office) to some fat cat donors, and he raises $750,000 out of the deal, the next day the state's gonna cut a check to his clean opponent for the same amount: $750,000.

This kinda lessens the incentive to throw big fundraisers and prostitute oneself to fat cat donors.

Between that and free airtime on the public airwaves, we can fix this whole democracy thing yet, I tell ya!

2005-06-25 23:25:23
250.   Fearing Blue
#249: Not bad. The goal would be to have everyone volunteer for public funding, I assume. If that's the case, how is it determined how much money each candidate gets?
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-06-25 23:27:31
251.   Jim Hitchcock
246 - I don't pay any attention at all to political commercials, and never will. You just don't learn anything real from them.

How I meant that, though, was in the sense that T.V. advertising will always be the biggest expense in any campaign. And candidates have to go somewhere to get the money to pay for them. And the people (corporations, unions, whatever) who give them that money extract blood for the favor. Just think very strongly that that works against us.

For a pretty good example, look at Bush's biggest financial backer - Ken Lay of Enron.
Not that the Dems are any better. They feed from the same trough. I really feel strongly that that works against true democracy.

But, hey, I'm nothing if not idealistic :)

2005-06-25 23:27:41
252.   bokonon42
249- I do my sister's taxes every year. She always insists that I not check the three-dollar box. For reasons I cannot understand, most people are willing to put up with seeing politicians on t.v. I don't believe any where near most would be willing to pay money for the privilege.
2005-06-25 23:29:57
253.   Jim Hitchcock
Pat said it a lot better than I did.

WOuldn't it be interesting if we could limit campaign contributions to a check box on our tax returns?

2005-06-25 23:30:31
254.   bokonon42
MBNA was the biggest Bush donor in 2000. Enron was twelve. Not that that invalidates your point, just have to prove how, you know, brilliant I am.

2005-06-25 23:39:19
255.   Jim Hitchcock
Those are just the straight corporate contributions. That doesn't take into account all the so called private fund raisers that Lay held for Bush. And then, theres the plane that Kenny Boy provided :)

But as I said elsewhere, the Dems use the same sources. The fact that these guys are so beholden to corporate contributions make them speak with forked toungue.

2005-06-25 23:42:27
256.   patsweetpat
250: If everyone volunteers for public funding, then hooray! The public really does win: they are sure to elect a candidate who achieves office without being beholden to unions, PACs, and corporations, and can instead serve the special interest that he/she was theoretically intended to serve all along: the constituents.

Anyway, to answer your question, I believe a baseline minimum is pre-established for each viable candidate's warchest ("viability," by the way, is established by a candidate's ability to collect a qualifying number of individual $5 contributions... each from a different voter). The pre-established warchest minimum depends on the office being contested. A Gubernatorial candidate may receive more than a legislative candidate.

Now what are those amounts? I'm not exactly sure.

So I guess I didn't answer your question.

But you get the idea.

2005-06-25 23:43:35
257.   Bob Timmermann
I actually watched "Hostage" tonight (with Bruce Willis) and I think I came out ahead.
2005-06-25 23:46:44
258.   Jim Hitchcock
I think you answered the question as well as anyone could. Sure, the details would have to be worked out, the the net result would conceivably be that candidates had to compete with actual issues that they could stand behind.

But, boy, would those who now lease the airwaves put up a fight! Is it too big a statement to say that democracy is being held hostage by them?

2005-06-25 23:47:09
259.   Strike4
I bring today's NYC paper back with me today, and there's five pages debating NYY and NYM both at .500 ... hardly an energizing topic. To get perked up, I check the Dodger blog, but the talk is about out of state politicians. UGH. Are the Dodgers that bad?

Izturis is 8 for 70 this month. What's happened to him? Tough to vote him to the all-star game. At least Eckstein's hitting a little. Green seems to have cooled off.

2005-06-25 23:48:12
260.   patsweetpat
252: I know it seems like it'd be a tough sell, trying to convince voters of the wisdom of paying for political campaigns. However, this very system (optional public financing to candidates who forgo special interest money) did indeed pass a statewide ballot initiative in Arizona in 1998.

So never say never!

2005-06-25 23:48:36
261.   Jim Hitchcock
Hey, Bob, was it any good? Also, was it you who said `A Life Aqautic...' wasn't that great? I only ask becase it's on PPV.
2005-06-25 23:51:58
262.   Bob Timmermann
"Hostage" has some thrills, but if you hate big flaws in logic, then pass on it.

I don't like Wes Anderson films, so I wouldn't recommend it. But some people love his work.

I keep my thumb parallel to the ground on that one.

2005-06-25 23:52:23
263.   patsweetpat
Don't pay for "Life Acquatic"!

It was horrible!

Maybe not horrible, but it was a bad movie. A bad, bad movie.

And I say that as someone who truly loves Wes Anderson, and who has both "Bottle Rocket" and "Royal Tennenbaums" in my personal Top 20.

2005-06-25 23:53:54
264.   Jim Hitchcock
Well, I guess choosing not to watch after the five minute preview was the right decision. Thanks, guys.
2005-06-25 23:57:09
265.   Jim Hitchcock
Like Dennis Quaid (Enemy Mine!), but I think I'll pass on `In Good Company' also. And `Racing Stripes' ? Fuggetaboutit. Well, maybe another West Wing rerun. Haven't seen 'em all yet.
2005-06-26 00:01:35
266.   Steve
248 -- The Dodgers are not my only hobby (horse).

259 -- We tried to start a debate about which was the better clutch hitter out of Ross, Werth, Grabowski, and Repko, but it didn't go very far.

I never check the box. Public money paying for candidates is the only thing worse than private money paying for candidates.

And finally, to square today's circle. I am watching Jimmy Piersall on What's My Line as I type this.

2005-06-26 00:19:21
267.   Linkmeister
Drat. Who knew a political discussion was gonna break out here?

My particular hobbyhorse is redistricting. I'm tired of extremists on each side being apportioned "safe" districts. I want a non-partisan commission to draw up maps after each census, no appeals allowed.

I think (or maybe it's just hope) that that would mean more centrists, in districts that don't look like riverbeds drawn by Lewis Carroll.

2005-06-26 00:25:10
268.   Steve
267 -- I drew several of the districts many of you live in.
2005-06-26 00:26:53
269.   Steve
In fact, Schwarzenegger (not personally, but by direct implication), called me a "drunk with an Etch-a-Sketch," which amused me, since I don't drink.
2005-06-26 00:30:01
270.   bokonon42
268- Dick Mountjoy's idiot son thanks you.
2005-06-26 00:32:31
271.   Linkmeister
Ah, but have you ever drawn a "canoe" district? That's what District 2 is out here. Rural Honolulu and all the neighbor islands. It's called that because you'd need a canoe to get to your entire district.
2005-06-26 00:34:48
272.   bokonon42
Known witch Michael Lewis questions Frank McCourt's finances, psychological neediness. (toward the bottom)

2005-06-26 00:37:32
273.   Steve
270 -- That is, by far, my favorite district. La Crescenta to Adelanto and Victorville. You can't travel it by anything but helicopter.
2005-06-26 00:44:15
274.   Steve
271 -- Phil Burton used to draw canoe districts around the San Francisco Bay area, back when it mattered how you redistricted the San Francisco Bay area.

As close as we got was we almost divided the north side of Lake Isabella from the south side of Lake Isabella. The 400 residents that surround Lake Isabella were incensed. We found another way to get to population equality.

2005-06-26 00:48:36
275.   Bob Timmermann
I think a problem of bigger concern is that Chivas USA is 1-12-3!

I am taking bets here that I'm the only person here who also have ever seen the Faeroe Islands play a World Cup qualifier match in person.

The Faeroe Islands was on the road.

2005-06-26 00:57:05
276.   Jim Hitchcock
I don't know what would be worse, being surrounded by 10,000 screaming Faeroens, or 400
screaming Isabellans.
2005-06-26 01:04:21
277.   bokonon42
An Op-Ed (he calls it one, anyway, even though it doesn't seem to have been published anywhere but his website) by Dennis Mountjoy, edited for clarity:

Over and over these days, we hear and see the words: "Choi Bless America." I agree wholeheartedly. We ought to pray for Choi's blessings on our nation. But that's not enough. We must also take time every day to pray: "America, Bless Choi."

2005-06-26 01:16:49
278.   Jim Hitchcock
Boy, bokonon, Mountjoy gives new meaning to the phrase `blessed be the porcine'.
2005-06-26 01:22:22
279.   Steve
Isabellans responded by op-ed in their local paper. It was a bloodless coup.

I had actually forgotten that district ended up with La Crescenta, Wrightwood, Apple Valley, part of Highland, part of Redlands, and Mentone.

Here's the map so you can see what such a district would look like:

2005-06-26 01:34:34
280.   Jim Hitchcock
Wow. As Jerry Dunphy might have said, `From the mountains to the meth labs...'
2005-06-26 01:39:54
281.   Jim Hitchcock
Steve, speaking of Governors of Tennessee, I wound up watching `Marie'. Didn't know it was the story of the woman who brought down Ray Blanton. Weird.
2005-06-26 08:54:56
282.   Marty
Comin late to this discussion. I went to high school with the Mountjoys. I didn't realize at the time Dennis would turn out to be such an idiot.
2005-06-27 11:35:11
283.   Sushirabbit
I'm REAL late. Since I'm a rabid republican in Nashville, I thought I'd throw out my two pennies. I am by no means well connected politically, but by strange happenstances I know people "who know people" :-) (speaking of which apparently Arnold's Nanny is from Nashville?!?! I didn't know the person that made that claim)

Anyway, someone I trust says that Bredesen is the most straight talking no BS person they have ever met. Which is the exact same thing that another person that I trust more said about G.W. Bush. Bredesen's problem will be that he might be the saviour and the sword of the Democrats. That is because he is pretty much taking on the one real indictment of liberalism: TennCare.

Around here, everything is "for the children", but the sad reality is people like my mother (and thousands of illegal immigrants, if not hundreds of thousands) come here without ever paying a penny in state taxes and get on the tenncare dole. The sad thing is that even the elderly and the poor didn't make out that well, it was the insurance companies, the drug companies and the corrupt people like John Ford. All this has wasted an ungodly ammount of money, any amount of which if it had been spent better would have actually helped the children (and education).

So, I like Bredesen, and if he gets the nod, I won't be as fearful as I have been in the past two elections, but I have a feeling that he will have to run on the facts of TennCare, and those facts aren't going to sit well with the current leaders in the DNC.

2005-06-30 17:09:25
284.   stubbs
whether he deserves it or not, is it possible that Eckstein got almost 400,000 more votes in 2 days????

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