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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Ah, Odalis vs. the Cardinals ... Good Memories
2005-07-31 08:36
by Jon Weisman

Today's Game

* * *

Don't think of it as Trade Deadline Day. Think of it as Trade Lifeline Day!

Comments (713)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-07-31 10:38:53
1.   rageon
And here I thought I had suppressed any knowledge of Perez against the Cardinals, but nope, you brought it right back.
2005-07-31 11:00:13
2.   King of the Hobos
Only 2 hours left (either to the deadline or the game, take your pick). I'm getting a little impatient to see what happens with the Dodgers, but I think I can wait...
2005-07-31 11:09:12
3.   Mark Linsey
At this point I'm thinking nothing is going to happen. Last year The Trade(tm) was leaked at least a little while beforehand, right?
2005-07-31 11:15:32
4.   rageon
I think it can out within an hour of the deadline, give or take. I think last years excitement spoiled us all, and we're all expected another mind-blowing last minute trade.

I still think that Depo is going to get in on at least one trade, albeit a minor one. There are enough teams looking to "buy" that I wouldn't be surprised if one of the numerous AAAA players we've been using gets traded for a decent prospect or two.

2005-07-31 11:16:27
5.   LAT
This morning Manny Ramirez said "I want to be with this team and win another World Series."

Is this guy MLB's version of Ricky Williams or what.

2005-07-31 11:24:26
6.   sanchez101
when did starting your backup catcher at 1st become so popular. Is their something in the LA water? Scoiscia is playing Jose Molina at first, against the yankees. Oh ya, this is his first career game at first. And i thought erstad at first was stupid
2005-07-31 11:26:39
7.   Steve
Playing your backup catcher at first is the New Letting Your Pitcher Hit With The Bases Loaded. Tres chic.
2005-07-31 11:29:19
8.   rageon
Will Carroll just posted his latest "Will's Mill." Only Dodgers mention was about taking on Mike Sweeney's contract. Cinci still claims to be holding on to their outfielders.

2005-07-31 11:32:42
9.   Mark Linsey
On the other hand, I might be wrong...BP is stating that both we and the Angels are interested in Mike Sweeney, and that "Instead of prospects, the Royals are more interested in someone taking on the entirety of Sweeney's contract."

Sweeney's contract goes through 2007 and averages $11 million per year, but that number rises to $12.5 million if traded. He's been having a nice year at the plate, with an OPS of .911, but he has a history of back problems, and his defense is bad enough that JT might keep Phillips in the lineup instead of Sweeney.

To me, this deal looks both bad and very unlikely for us, unless McCourt would be willing to significantly raise the payroll - but only for the purpose of pulling off a splashy trade and not for offseason improvements.

I just don't see it happening unless KC agrees to take some second-tier prospects in exchange for around half of his salary.

2005-07-31 11:34:59
10.   King of the Hobos
I can't wait until David Ross plays 1B with Olivo at C
2005-07-31 11:38:21
11.   gvette
The Sweeney deal sounds more like something that Arte/Stoneman and the Angels would do.
2005-07-31 11:40:12
12.   rageon
I can't see a Sweeney deal. I think that Depo would force Tracy to play Choi before going and buying a $12M/year 1B just to keep Tracy from being an idiot.
2005-07-31 11:44:59
13.   GoBears
Just listened to DePodesta on BP radio (the link Jon gave us). WHat I gleaned was (1) he's not nearly as annoyed with Tracy as we wish he were, and (2) no big deals coming - he thinks (and I can't say he's wrong) that the team is better off finding help in the minors and off the DL. That the Dodgers are trying to rebuild and win at the same time.

Oh, and someone asked yesterday whether anything was a moot point on DT. The answer is that everything is, since, contrary to popular belief and usage, "moot" does not mean "irrelevant." It means "debatable." So everything is moot around here. Well, except that Jim Tracy should be fired. That's no longer up for debate.

2005-07-31 11:45:45
14.   Landonkk
Since we are an hour and fifteen minutes from the 'deadline' and still nothing to get excited about, I'll throw this out there. Somebody on the Pirates board claimed Lawton for Hanrahan, C. Ross and Figueroa.

Again, this has zero validity, just wanted something to talk about.

2005-07-31 11:49:47
15.   King of the Hobos
I'm willing to bet that there will be nothing to get excited over until after the deadline.
2005-07-31 11:53:44
16.   Suffering Bruin
I with #15. I don't think we're going to do anything.
2005-07-31 11:55:03
17.   sanchez101
i would like that lawton deal. It replaces most of jd drew's obp, maybe he even replaces izturis in the leadoff spot. The prospects are very expendable
2005-07-31 11:57:00
18.   Landonkk
17: It's a great deal, that's why I am not buying it at all.

I agree that Depo does nothing and I can't say that I disagree. There just isn't anything out there worht their asking price.

2005-07-31 12:04:52
19.   ROC
I believe there is no way these teams (e.g. Pitt) don't take advantage of dumping some serious money/getting propects.

This is a huge game of chicken, and there will be a flurry of deals at 12:55pm PDT.

I also like the Lawton deal, but short of Dunn I would love to rip-off Bowden for Wilkerson.

2005-07-31 12:06:16
20.   LAT
9. Maybe this is just Frank messing with Arte.
2005-07-31 12:09:05
21.   Rick in the UK
Well I hope the McCourts surprise us and put up some money to be competitive. Right now according to the site Hardball Dollars, there are, count 'em, 10 teams with higher payrolls. Talk about disgusting. I remember when the Dodgers were routinely the big spenders, competent or incompetent. We don't even have the highest payroll in our division. Pathetic.
2005-07-31 12:17:07
22.   Landonkk
You should just become a Yankees fan if you consider spending money being competitive. We have the highest payroll in the NL West, just not 'active payroll.'

There is nothing disgusting about being smart with your payroll. Disgusting is spending a quarter of a billion dollars.

2005-07-31 12:20:00
23.   Steve
Why would we spend $12 million dollars on Mike Sweeney, when we can put an .830 OPS guy (without a bad back) in the lineup just by moving Jeff Kent to first. This is, obviously, not my preferred solution to the problem. But Mike Sweeney makes absolutely no sense -- who cares who you give up for him.
2005-07-31 12:20:25
24.   King of the Hobos
Phillips isn't in the lineup! Rejoice! Werth is either traded, or more likely, on the DL

SS Izzy
3B Robles
CF Bradley
2B Kent
1B Saenz
LF Valentin
C Navarro
RF Repko
P Perez

And the Cards are being nice to Odalis, no Edmonds (or scrappy)

SS Nunez
CF Taguchi
1B Pujols
LF Gall
2B Grudzielanek
RF Rodriguez
3B Luna
C Diaz
P Mulder

2005-07-31 12:20:41
25.   Rick in the UK
Our payroll is second to the Giants according to the site Hardball Dollars. Please cite a source which defines "active" and "inactive". Money is money. If you look at the 10 teams that have a higher payroll ALL of them except the Mariners are better than we are. I await the DePodologists and McCourtites to pop out of the woodwork and defend moves that are basically incompetent.
2005-07-31 12:21:08
26.   Rick in the UK
Whoops, and the Giants of course. We'll see how badly they beat us when Bonds comes off the DL.
2005-07-31 12:21:25
27.   The Saul
I don't think we need to add players, we have enough players coming off the DL in the next weeks that should make us competitive.
The situation does not to me warrant taking on salaries.
Besides, if we can't win this division with this team, then we don't deserve to be in the postseason.
2005-07-31 12:23:11
28.   dzzrtRatt
re: #13 That the Dodgers are trying to rebuild and win at the same time.

Who does that remind you of? Why, Fred Claire, of course!

But DePo gets a pass from me if he doesn't do any deals, even though the Dodgers need help. We might be overly enamored of our prospects, but there is nothing but mediocrity for sale out there. Like so much else in this crazy world, excessive hype has made the July 31 trading deadline too important, and no GM wants to look like he got ripped off. No team is going to alter its fortunes very much. The most active team, the Padres, look weaker than when they started, plus desperate. DePo will be glad to have his scouts back to help the team win games rather than scout trade possibilities.

2005-07-31 12:24:19
29.   bigcpa
This Baseball Tonight Trade Deadline special is starting to take on an "Al Capone's Vault" feel.
2005-07-31 12:24:36
30.   sanchez101
25. would you rather the dodgers be run like the giants?
2005-07-31 12:25:25
31.   sanchez101
29. Ya, Steve Phillips was discussing the decisions behind a deal that wasnt made a month ago, and definintly wont happen today.
2005-07-31 12:25:46
32.   Rick in the UK
Who do we have coming off the DL who can help us offensively? Valentin? By the time Drew comes off his rehab the season will be almost over, and we will have to play through his power outage, which is a common occurrence after a wrist injury. Valentin has not been good in a couple of years, and is probably nearing the end of his career. DePodesta being wholly unable to confront other people is allowing Mad Dog Tracy to play Jason Phillips over Choi, an experiment that worked oh so well with the Mets last year, and not play Antonio Perez at third because of defense fears. The patients are running the asylum.
2005-07-31 12:30:12
33.   bigcpa
Griffey out of the lineup in SD with Cubs rumors. Dunn is playing.
2005-07-31 12:30:34
34.   Rick in the UK
I can't for the life of me figure out why so many on the internet give a pass to a GM who has shown very little skill, and a great ability to be lucky until this year. If Beltre had played as he was supposed to last year, we would not have won the division. Now with almost all the Fox contracts gone and a much freer hand, DePodesta goes out and spends 44 million on Derek "Melanoma" Lowe, and 55 million on J.D. "Bum Knee" Drew. Why are we apologizing for a GM making mistakes that none of us would make on our own fantasy teams?
2005-07-31 12:31:05
35.   ROC
I can't believe anything would make me feel good about having JT as manager anymore, but the Times' "Dusty wants to manage the Dodgers" rumor/article did...

Ken Griffey late scratch, Lawton still playing.

2005-07-31 12:31:50
36.   Steelyeri
we could have used valentin and his 30 HRs this season. The only way this team could score a couple of weeks ago was with four consecutive base hits. Now with bradley, Ledee, and valentin back in the lineup we should be better off. Now, if tracy keeps Ledee, Perez, and Choi on the bench that's one thing. But it isn't Mccourt's lack of spending that is holding this team back.
2005-07-31 12:32:23
37.   King of the Hobos
Dusty has denied that rumor thankfully
2005-07-31 12:32:55
38.   Mark Linsey

So you think we should have had a higher payroll this season. Fine. What moves would you have done or not done which would have increased the payroll while improving the opening day roster?

2005-07-31 12:33:38
39.   gvette
Sorry, I'm just not a proponent of the "We don't need to make a trade, because we have tons of guys coming off the DL" school of thought.

With the exception of Ledee, the other guys coming off the DL (Bradley, Werth, Perez, etc) are still not playing that well. To expect Valentin, who was 0-40 shortly before he got hurt to have an immediate impact is too hopeful for me. Who knows when Drew will be able to play?

This team has been playing poorly since the end of April, and IMO it's too much to expect it to right itself without a little help from the outside. It's not too much to ask to at least find someone better than Carrara for your roster.

2005-07-31 12:35:10
40.   Rick in the UK

Are you saying that DePodesta is a good GM on the basis of my inability to pick better players than him? You're kidding right?

2005-07-31 12:36:14
41.   bigcpa
Rick- if you recall our 2004 Opening Day lineup would have featured and OF of Encarnacion, Roberts and Grabowski. Bradley and Werth didn't fall off a tree.
2005-07-31 12:36:38
42.   Rick in the UK
The moves that I would have done to increase payroll would be to be worth more money and allow my GM to spend it.
2005-07-31 12:37:08
43.   sanchez101
derek "melanoma" lowe?
2005-07-31 12:38:02
44.   Rick in the UK

Just because I say DePodesta isn't a good GM doesn't mean I think Dan Evans is a good GM. It's the old argument that DePodologists love to use, that the only alternative to DePodesta is Dan Evans. There is a third choice believe it or not.

2005-07-31 12:38:04
45.   Mark Linsey
"Are you saying that DePodesta is a good GM on the basis of my inability to pick better players than him? You're kidding right?"


"Why are we apologizing for a GM making mistakes that none of us would make on our own fantasy teams? "


2005-07-31 12:38:07
46.   Steelyeri
Here we go again with the forum crowd...
2005-07-31 12:38:37
47.   Steve
This is the don't buy your crap, buy my crap argument.
2005-07-31 12:39:24
48.   Rick in the UK

Good point. Umm, I choose the latter.

2005-07-31 12:39:51
49.   Rick in the UK

The authority on everything has entered the building.

2005-07-31 12:41:07
50.   rageon
#29 - very nice. I can't imagine an entire show devoted to Randy Winn and Chan Ho Park. Although, we all know that 75% of it will be devoted to (1) why didn't Boston trade Manny, and (2) did the Yankees make a mistake by not taking on even more terrible pitchers.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-07-31 12:41:09
51.   jasonungar05
big payroll=success

just like


that train of thought=ignorance

2005-07-31 12:41:25
52.   Rick in the UK

I'm not from, and have been on this site for over two years now posting on another name. I don't hate sabermetrics, in fact I think it's the way to go. All the smart GMs know who the good players are, it's the good GMs who have the ability to make the deals that get those players and don't overpay for crap like Derek Lowe and J.D. Drew.

2005-07-31 12:41:56
53.   Steve
A little nonsense now and then cherished by the wisest of men...
2005-07-31 12:41:58
54.   atg12
I don't think Depo thinks the guys we have coming off the DL are enough to win the division either. But that explanation sounds a lot better to fans than "any trade we make in this market will result in an overall loss value."
2005-07-31 12:42:03
55.   Rick in the UK

Actually big payroll does equal success as every team except two with higher payrolls than us has a better record.

2005-07-31 12:43:16
56.   dzzrtRatt
re 34

You might want to consider focusing your considerable intellect on cricket now. You're being completely inconsistent. On the one hand, the Dodgers should be ashamed because we don't have one of the highest payrolls in the league. On the other hand, DePo shouldn't have made two deals that only a high payroll team can and should make. The price of the Lowe deal strikes everyone as absurd, but let's not forget, this was a result of the Kris Benson-inflated market for starters. If we wanted a proven major league starter, that was the going price. Are you suggesting we should have kept the money, or spent it elsewhere? Who else was available? Think hard.

As for your comments on Drew, you might want to do a little more homework on this. Drew is on the DL because a pitcher threw a ball that hit him on the wrist! His knee wasn't involved! His knee has recovered! Are you suggesting that any player who has recovered from an injury should be avoided? How are you going to keep your payroll high if you set a dumb rule like that? By your logic, we were right to pass on Vlad Guerrero, because he had a bad back.

Anyone who believes we should've kept Beltre cannot complain about getting Drew, a better player with a longer history of being a good player, for $2 million/year less than Seattle payed Beltre. Current stats completely back up DePo's choice here. All the evidence so far points to Beltre being a one-season wonder. Time will tell, but if it was your $11-$13 million that DePo was spending, I think you'd agree that Drew was a more prudent choice, and the results this year have born that out. You can't control for HBP-related injuries, unless you're talking about Don Baylor.

2005-07-31 12:43:18
57.   King of the Hobos
Didn't work so good for Malone, and hasn't worked for the Mets in quite awhile
2005-07-31 12:43:24
58.   Mark Linsey
OK, let me apologize for making assumptions. I'm glad you think that sabermetrics is the "way to go".

Now...can you give me a persuasive sabermetric argument for why another outfielder available last offseason would have been a better aquisition than JD Drew?

2005-07-31 12:44:13
59.   Landonkk
Rick in UK

No offense, but this isn't a site that you are going to win over many people with your anti-depo/mccourt opinions. You would fit in well on the dodgers forum, but this isn't the best place for it.

Everyone here is open to all opinions, but for the most part, the owner of this site and it's faithful are believers in Depo and his philosophy. I am not saying that we are right and you are wrong, but you should probably show a little respect coming to a new website.

2005-07-31 12:44:27
60.   fanerman
Or an AVAILABLE pitcher better than Lowe?
2005-07-31 12:45:22
61.   Rick in the UK

Mark what you're asking is impossible. I'm not on the phone with rival GMs. With enough money or ability to deal almost any outfielder is available. Our GM has neither.

2005-07-31 12:46:01
62.   Rick in the UK

Again, any pitcher is available to a savvy enough GM with either the money or the talent to make deals.

2005-07-31 12:46:02
63.   fanerman
Dusty has denied the rumors he wants to manage here? HALLELUJAH! I didn't think I'd be glad Tracy was here until I read that one.

The one thing Tracy does do decently is prevent his pitchers from overpitching to the point of injuring themselves (only to the point of hurting our chances of winning).

2005-07-31 12:46:37
64.   Steve
This is the DePo as God argument
2005-07-31 12:46:59
65.   Tommy Naccarato
If DeStupida does not make a deal in the next twenty minutes, how much more is it going to take for some of you to realize that this team is a dead horse?

This season was over before it started--nice 14 game start and all.

I was at a card show yesterday, saw images of Dodger Stadium in the days when it was a wide open pitchers park and just wanted to cry, thinking of all of that Hollywood fun zone that has been built down below. Even the field is a wreck now!

It's funny no one is really talking about the affects of the park and the play.....I'm sure there is a syber stat that will prove me wrong.

The McCourts--all of them, De Stupida all the way to the office staff that sits and worries about their jos everyday should be tar & feathered and run out of town on a rail.

Gotta run, I want to see Peter Gammons (The Rona Barrett of baseball, get his inductance. (For what reason, I don't know)

2005-07-31 12:47:12
66.   bigcpa
What part of .286/.412/.520 disagrees with you? And please explain how the wrist bone is connected to the... knee bone.
2005-07-31 12:47:29
67.   Screwgie
So Valentin with his horrific splits batting right-handed is now our starting leftfielder against lefty starters?

We need another outfielder no question, maybe two. Depo needs to make a move.

We'll see shorty...

2005-07-31 12:47:52
68.   Rick in the UK

I'm glad you speak for everyone else on this site but me. I'm sure they would agree to have you as their mouthpiece on each and every issue. So I guess the point of posting on this site is for all of us to agree with each other no matter how ludicrous we sound. I'm just injecting a little thinking debate into the equation. If that annoys you I'm sorry, there are other websites for you to peruse.

2005-07-31 12:48:00
69.   fanerman
Wow... what a weird place this has become...
2005-07-31 12:48:30
70.   Rick in the UK

Drew had a long history of knee problems. Try a google search of his name and "knee".

2005-07-31 12:49:05
71.   Steve
how much more is it going to take for some of you to realize that this team is a dead horse?

Raise your hand if you don't think this team is a dead horse.

2005-07-31 12:49:32
72.   Rick in the UK

Finally someone who agrees with me! Landon I guess there are two of us now.

2005-07-31 12:50:57
73.   Steelyeri
52- Let me guess, stubbs? Is that you?

Drew is the best hitter on our team, his .932 OPS is be top 20 in the league. His best months have been july and august, he missed most of july. If that's what you call crap, I would love this team to be full of crap.

2005-07-31 12:51:26
74.   Rick in the UK

Somewhere in your rant I became crosseyed and stopped reading. Drew's knee is not an issue? I guess that fight with Bradley over positions was nothing. Talk about a short term memory problem. Does desert air cause senility?

2005-07-31 12:51:38
75.   Suffering Bruin
In lieu of a trade, I say we clone a right-handed version of Choi. Then the left-handed version will have some company on the bench when Tracy starts Phillips ahead of both.
2005-07-31 12:51:39
76.   King of the Hobos
Milwaukee has a 2-0 lead, bases loaded, one out in bottom of the 6th against the Giants

However, Arizona has a nice 5-1 lead over the Cubs in the 5th

2005-07-31 12:51:47
77.   Landonkk
The Valentin OF experiment begins today.
2005-07-31 12:51:55
78.   Tommy Naccarato
Landon KK,
I've been a Dodger Thoughts contributor for the last two years, and I can tell you that I welcome his comments anytime.
2005-07-31 12:52:45
79.   Rick in the UK
73--Drew is still playing? Oh cool, and here I thought he had this reputation for being injury prone. Kent's VORP will easily beat his because of playing time.
2005-07-31 12:53:30
80.   Benaiah
Ugh shades of last year when the Dodger message board exploded into hundreds of hate filled rants.

68 - As Jon is proud to point out, the thinking on this site is not monolithic, however, many people here do agree. That said, most here try to keep things a bit more respectful (though you have been here for two years, commenting that whole time?) than today. I hope that in a week everyone's blood will settle a bit. The point isn't that Drew has had knee problems, it is that he didn't suffer a knee injury so past knee problems are inconsequential. What I don't understand is why you are pissed that the Dodgers haven't spent more money, but also pissed that they spent so much on Lowe and Drew.

2005-07-31 12:53:54
81.   atg12
I believe the local ESPN radio host refers to him as "Stu-podesta" not DeStupida.
2005-07-31 12:53:57
82.   King of the Hobos
Marlins got Ron Villone
2005-07-31 12:54:29
83.   dzzrtRatt
Re: 68

I'm just injecting a little thinking debate into the equation.

Lord knows, we can always use that. So, Rick, why don't you see if anyone else in the loo where you're sitting could do that for us. Thanks.

2005-07-31 12:54:40
84.   bigcpa
Please provide a list of all players for DePo to avoid because of weak ulnar styloid bones. Is there a stat for historical calcium intake?
2005-07-31 12:54:44
85.   ROC
I'm an avid DT reader and occasional lame poster. I'm starting to see why 'Sons of Sam Horn' went the membership approval route when their community grew.
2005-07-31 12:54:54
86.   Steve
The Ron Villone race is over. Drat.
2005-07-31 12:56:18
87.   Rick in the UK
Folks let's have an objective analysis of DePodesta moves. Believe it or not, you can think DePodesta is not talented and still be a fan of sabermetrics. Just because you disagree with his moves doesn't mean you are a Plashkeite, message board member, and think math is for nerds. There is another incompetent sabermetric GM and his name is Riccardi. So heavy statistical use doesn't guarantee wins.
2005-07-31 12:57:09
88.   dzzrtRatt
Drew's knee is not an issue?

Not this year, it isn't. If your "thinking debate" position is that players with past history of injury shouldn't be acquired, say that. But be prepared for more ridicule.

2005-07-31 12:57:34
89.   King of the Hobos
Mariners got Yorman Bazardo and Mike Flannery. Bazardo is projected as a future 3 or 4 starter, he alone is worth far more than Villone

Also, the DBacks had a slam, 9-1 lead

2005-07-31 12:57:46
90.   fanerman
Rick in the UK,

Lively debate is one thing (a good thing). But the points you're making are ill-conceived and unreasonable and have been discussed a thousand times already.

This team IS a dead horse. We just happen to be playing in a division full of other dead horses. There's not much of a point to overpay for a bat or arm right now because that's not going to suddenly make us a thoroughbred.

Drew may be out right now but it's a freak injury. All players run about the same risk of getting hit by pitch in the wrist (which according to your logic, is somehow connected to the knee bone), regardless of how "injury-prone" they are.

Theorize all you want about a great GM with charm and money, but we give some examples of players DePo could have gotten this off-season that are better than the players he did get. The list of 2004 free agents is available somewhere. Who could we have gotten?

If you're gonna illogically rant, I'm all for that. There was a rant last night that didn't make complete sense, but everybody loved it. But this isn't "thinking debate."

2005-07-31 12:57:56
91.   Rick in the UK

I can't believe you are this blind. If I gave you that many millions and you didn't do a comprehensive health analysis on this player I think any CEO would fire you. That is why deals are contingent on players passing physicals. So from your standpoint the contract extension to Dreifort and Griffey were good?

2005-07-31 12:58:26
92.   trainwreck
First time poster been reading this website for awhile. After listening to DePo at BP...who do you think DePo was talking about when he mentioned bringing up young guys?
2005-07-31 12:59:28
93.   stevo
I think everyone here is for a little objective depodesta analysis, but you are just not very good at it, sorry.
2005-07-31 12:59:30
94.   fanerman
I'm guessing Kuo is next. I don't know who else can contribute this year. Maybe Billingsley can get a September call-up or something.
2005-07-31 12:59:43
95.   dzzrtRatt
re 85. Don't worry; today is a rare example, and I'm sure it'll die down soon. I think there's a good Benny Hill rerun on the Beeb in about half an hour that should distract at least one combative poster.
2005-07-31 12:59:51
96.   King of the Hobos
The deadline is over, announcements should roll in for the next 15-20 minutes
2005-07-31 12:59:54
97.   Suffering Bruin
65 - I always liked Gammons. Long after he could've mailed it in, he still pounded the phones, developed relationships... a reporter's reporter.

Second hand gossip alert: I remember a friend of mine telling me a story about how he was working at Wrigley Field and Scottie Pippen was in a private box or suite or something. Jim Gray wanted to talk to him and my guy wouldn't let him in; it was the house rule. Gray became belligerent; my guy held firm. After Gray stormed off, Gammons came by and talked to my guy for five minutes. He wasn't there to talk about what just happened but he came by to introduce himself and chat. My guy swears to this day that Gammons was in some way offering solace without talking crap behind Jim Gray's back.

I like that story.

2005-07-31 13:00:15
98.   Steve
Call in the psychics. The doctors missed the wrist break back in February. The quacks.
2005-07-31 13:00:24
99.   Rick in the UK

Where are the debates on this site that DePodesta is anything but a genius? Yes we can have a "lively debate" as long as at the end of it I agree with you completely. I'm sorry that I don't believe that this team's current ownership is a good one. And when we lose the division to the lowly Padres and our budget for next year drops to 80 million, I'm sure you'll find another way to cleverly prop up DePodesta.

2005-07-31 13:01:25
100.   Rick in the UK
Oh Ratt so funny. Is there a piece of cheese you missed in your fecal matter search of the local alley?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-07-31 13:02:37
101.   JSN

Fine be objective. Use analysis and statistics. You have not and that is why everyone is so cranky. Your claims are based on this magical fantasy world where Depo gets anybody he wants with his creativity and money. Then you argue that you can't suggest what he should have done cause you weren't on the phone with other GM's etc. Exactly. You weren't, he was, and he made decisions accordingly. I don't think Depo has neccesarily done a great job but I understand what his intentions are and where he's going. Knee-jerk impatience because there is a timer ticking down on ESPN's Deadline Special is what loads teams up with mediocre over paid players.

2005-07-31 13:02:54
102.   Marty
Everyone here realizes that Rick in UK is the old DodgerKid right? I don't necessarily agree with him, but he has been a regular commenter here.
2005-07-31 13:03:59
103.   King of the Hobos
Buddy Groom to the DBacks (impressive, I know). Looks like Lawton to Cubs, but it's not confirmed
2005-07-31 13:04:16
104.   Benaiah
*91. Rick in the UK

I can't believe you are this blind. If I gave you that many millions and you didn't do a comprehensive health analysis on this player I think any CEO would fire you. That is why deals are contingent on players passing physicals. So from your standpoint the contract extension to Dreifort and Griffey were good?*

What are you talking about, it isn't like Drew is out with a knee injury right now. In case you were too busy watching cricket or rugby, the man got hit by a pitch in the arm. No injury repot can predict the future ("I see a break in your wrist in 5-6 months, I am going have to reccomend the team doesn't sign you.")

2005-07-31 13:04:26
105.   stevo
99 If depodesta and mccourt wanted an 80 mil roster they could have had it, they didnt have to sign lowe and drew. Like i said everyone if for some debate, but you keep coming with really invalid points to back your argument up, should everyone just be quiet and say your right?
2005-07-31 13:05:12
106.   King of the Hobos
Braves acquired Farnsworth from the Tigers
2005-07-31 13:05:27
107.   bigcpa
Jon did a nice toteboard of the 2002-2005 Dodger roster moves here:

Decent company on Rick's Crap List with Lowe:

Radke 3.88
Mulder 3.94
Johnson 3.99
Lowe 3.99
Vazquez 4.29
Maddux 4.32
Clement 4.43
Schmidt 4.56

2005-07-31 13:05:40
108.   jasonungar05
we would be in first place if we had gagne all year. let alone drew, bradley and others. Now Werth is heading back to the DL
2005-07-31 13:05:40
109.   Steve
106 -- For who?
2005-07-31 13:05:50
110.   rageon deadline....ever.
2005-07-31 13:06:27
111.   King of the Hobos
Tigers receive Ramon Colon and Zach Minor
2005-07-31 13:06:29
112.   stubbs
79-Tough to go at alone in this forum, but u have made a nice effort. Just a warning, this is a message board where you can post:

Our Gm spent 105 million on Lowe, Drew and Odalis Perez, what gives? and get lambasted.

Fact is that our team is horrible this year. Our starting pitching staff, to whom we've given out contracts worth a combined 100 million is average. Imagine how bad we would be if Penny hadn't returned from the bicep tear. The silly arguments about Choi,trading Izturis and Perez's defense etc just fill up the time and mask the fact that our team is below average. The fact we stood pat today is just an omission by our GM that he put together a team that incapable of of winning, so why make a move?

2005-07-31 13:06:59
113.   stubbs
79-Tough to go at alone in this forum, but u have made a nice effort. Just a warning, this is a message board where you can post:

Our Gm spent 105 million on Lowe, Drew and Odalis Perez, what gives? and get lambasted. Fact is that our team is horrible this year. Our startig pitching staff, to whom we've given out contracts worth a combined 100 million is average. Imagine how bad we would be if Penny hadn't returned from the bicep tear. The silly arguments about Choi,trading Izturis and Perez's defense etc just fill up the time and mask the fact that our team is below average. The fact we stood pat today is just an omission by our GM that he put together a team that incapable of of winning, so why make a move?

2005-07-31 13:08:08
114.   Rick in the UK

Where are the statistics you have used? The burden of proof is not only on the person you disagree with, but on yourself as well. I guess my linking to the hardball times and referring to Kent's superior VORP to Drew are not enough for you. Truly we have reached the nexus of insanity when the DePodologists refuse to use statistics to defend their master and accuse their opponents of not using them enough.

2005-07-31 13:08:28
115.   Blue Crew

Much agreed. People have their opinions and are entitled to them, but it's all in the delivery. Let's keep this site on the positive side.


2005-07-31 13:08:32
116.   Suffering Bruin
87 - Okay, let's do it.

This is ripped off from Tom Meagherk, posted on Fourth Outfielder, 4/1/2005:

Los Angeles Dodgers traded catchers Paul Lo Duca and Dave Ross, RF-1B Shawn Green, OF Juan Encarnacion, RHP Guillermo Mota, and LHP Kazuhisa Ishii to the Pimarletbacks for catchers Jason Phillips and Dioner Navarro, 1B Hee Seop Choi, and RHP Brad Penny, William Juarez, Danny Muegge, and Beltran Perez.

We can start there, right? Feel free to add names (particularly Drew). But we have to go back that far, I think, before we can assess the job Depo has done.

2005-07-31 13:09:32
117.   King of the Hobos
Game's starting if anyone cares
2005-07-31 13:10:23
118.   Benaiah
114 - We have Kent and Drew, and VORP is not a rate stat, so the fact that Kent has played more games plays into his higher VORP. What is your point in comparing the two of them anyway?
2005-07-31 13:10:24
119.   trainwreck
Now going to have to hear all the bad publicity DePo will get for not making a move. Clearly this market was terrible because NO ONE made a significant move at this deadline. DePo did the smart thing and decided to not overpay for just a little help. Be interesting to see the roster moves we make in the next week.
2005-07-31 13:10:38
120.   Suffering Bruin
Game? Oh...
2005-07-31 13:11:21
121.   Steve
Who is J. Gall?
2005-07-31 13:11:25
122.   bigcpa
Lawton to Cubs
2005-07-31 13:11:32
123.   Tommy Naccarato
Thanks for giving some people on this board a dose of reality.

You said perfectly what I wanted to say.

2005-07-31 13:12:00
124.   JSN
I was simply responding to your post which said "Folks let's have an objective analysis of DePodesta moves." What does comparing Drew to Kent do? They're on the same dang team.

I'm going to go enjoy the game in peace. Enjoy spinning your wheels, everybody.

2005-07-31 13:12:29
125.   Rick in the UK

Because someone said that Drew was the best hitter on the team. Yes he is in limited playing time. Using your logic, if I have one at bat all season and it is a homerun, I am a better hitter than Drew. That is why VORP is a superior stat to OPS, because it measures the true value to a team. The more you play the more valuable you are. The more you sit on the DL, the less.

2005-07-31 13:12:46
126.   King of the Hobos
Odalis got Pujols out. We finally got the Cards in the first inning
2005-07-31 13:12:55
127.   Doug N
#69, #85, etc...

So I haven't been around the site for a few months, and I am very confused and disappointed with the state of the commenting.

It might be worth mentioning to the folks that are caught up in being miserable that no team could be better than .500 with the injuries the Dodgers have suffered.

2005-07-31 13:13:05
128.   trainwreck
Does anyone know the players who are eligible for the rule 5 draft?
2005-07-31 13:13:29
129.   stevo
114 - wow you can use a stat comparing two players who the dodgers already have! Rick wins!
2005-07-31 13:14:17
130.   Mark
I am honestly curious as to why some of you people, after rejoicing that DePodesta broke up a team in first place in the division last year, are happy that he hasn't made any moves with a team that is playing below .500.

Our starting lineup today is Saenz at 1B, Robles at 3B, Valentin in LF, and Crapko in RF. Someone please tell me that we couldn't have done any better at those positions.

2005-07-31 13:15:03
131.   Rick in the UK
Well if that's the case that DePodesta failed in making any deals, I eagerly await what his minions have in store for the rest of us in terms of apologies and excuses. I guess because DePodesta was SMARTER than the other GMs, he decided it was a waste of time to talk to them over the phone because their puny minds can't comprehend his grand Ayn Rand absolutist strategem.
2005-07-31 13:15:08
132.   Mark
And Weaver is still on the team!?!? That's it. DePodesta is dead to me.
2005-07-31 13:15:17
133.   stubbs
it should also be noted that there figures to be a market for overpaid players by the Aug 31st deadline, but that doesnt seem to be something that is in Depo's wheel house. I
2005-07-31 13:15:58
134.   Rick in the UK

Tell that to the Angels who are in first place with more players on the DL.

2005-07-31 13:16:34
135.   Rick in the UK


2005-07-31 13:16:48
136.   Suffering Bruin
130 - Sure, we could've done better but at what cost? If he avoided a trade because it would've been penny wise/pound foolish, bully for Depo.
2005-07-31 13:16:49
137.   Benaiah
125 - Clearly Kent has been more valuable all year, but he managed to avoid a freakish injury with was unforeseen and totally unavoidable (Maybe he could have gotten out of the way, but are we supposed to lob tennis balls at FA and see how good they are at dodging them?) and so his VORP is higher. However, Drew's higher OPS probably means that if he had dodged that pitch he would no doubt have a higher VORP today.
2005-07-31 13:16:53
138.   Steve
132 -- Sometimes news gets out late. There's still hope. :)
2005-07-31 13:17:34
139.   trainwreck
132- Well if you want this team to compete for the division we are going to need Weaver. Who would we have replaced him with? Obviously no team is trading starting pitching in return.
2005-07-31 13:17:49
140.   stubbs
if the dodgers win today and the padres lose, tomorrow's LA times should be a wonderful collection of anti-dodger articles. at least monday morning at work will be entertaining.
2005-07-31 13:18:13
141.   Rick in the UK
No but but but it must be all part of his masterpiece where Drew comes off the DL on September 15th and hits 20 homeruns in a two week period and we rocket to first and and and Bowden is such a dumb GM for not using math all the time and giving interviews to Baseball Prospectus and and and...
2005-07-31 13:18:23
142.   stevo
So i was just wondering what amazing inside info you have of deals depo could have made today, and didnt. For all we know the best deal he couldve made was jeff kent for a minor league scrub
2005-07-31 13:19:36
143.   Tommy Naccarato
Doug, I too am very disappointed with the state of the discussions. Used to be some really good content here, and if you had something to say, you said it and it was welcomed.

Rob Malone never seems to post, or at least doesn't post nearly as much here anymore, and that's also a loss.


We might as well get used to those two words.

2005-07-31 13:19:58
144.   Mark
136- Understood, but either sell off some of the chaff, or procure a bit more wheat. Don't languish firmly cemented at mediocre. I'm guessing that after last year, Depodesta is a bit trigger shy. But this holding onto Weaver business is absolute insanity.
2005-07-31 13:20:20
145.   Eric L

Maybe because the trade market was terrible this year?

How often (outside of maybe Finley last year) do deadline deals really help a team? Injuries, odd decisions by Tracy, and a below average bullpen have left the Dodgers and DePo with several holes to fill.

I have a feeling that if one hole was plugged, one of the other holes would have become harder to fill.

Or to simplify: The Dodgers are a seriously flawed team at the moment. One or two moves may have let them overtake a crappy division, but they would have still been flawed. No need to sacrifice the future for a bleak chance in the present day.

2005-07-31 13:20:20
146.   sanchez101
130. Who's happy? This is one of the worst trade deadline's ever. Teams were asking for the farm for mediocre/expensive players. No ones claiming that depodesta is smarter than everyone else for not making a move. Cashman, Beane, Epstien; non of these guys made moves either despite having more competitive teams. I would much rather have broxton relieving rather than baez or farnsworth
2005-07-31 13:20:40
147.   Rick in the UK

What do you mean it was unforseeable? You mean Drew had never been on the DL before for freak injuries. Why I guess we should give Dreifort a contract extension because it is totally unknown whether he will injure himself in the future. I mean we really have no idea. It's very rare for players to get hit by pitches when batting as well. It's totally bizarre. DePo ROCKS!!

2005-07-31 13:20:55
148.   Benaiah
143 - I too am noticing a sharp decline in quality today.
2005-07-31 13:21:08
150.   stubbs
Hilarious thing just said by Reds announcers. Ryan Freel got caught on a straight steal of home and the announcer says:

"We gotta push a leash on that guy so he doesnt get of his cage. Jason Phillips isn't pitching. "

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-07-31 13:21:23
151.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
What a pie fight this chat is.
2005-07-31 13:21:43
152.   fanerman
Drew has as good a chance of being hit by pitch in the wrist as any other player.
2005-07-31 13:23:01
153.   ROC
re: #133 I was thinking about the same thing. At least being in the NL West this year makes waiver deals a whole lot easier.

Now we just have to trade (if we're gonna) before we pass the Padres. I am comforted that no one else in the NL West improved, and no one else got Dunn.

DePo=God comment: I'm little jealous the Twins got The Greek God of Walks (but they paid for it).

2005-07-31 13:23:17
154.   Rick in the UK
That's it, we'll blame the market! Cuz I read in Ayn Rand's book about capitalism that the market is some kinda big power and DePo loves that writer, so obviously she knew what she was talking about. I mean it's not like Beane made some deals...oh wait he did...well I guess it's our budget's fault, no wait it's the LA Times' is fault, and the message board. They got DePo flustered and and and he made some mistakes...Go Team DePO...DePo ROCKS!!
2005-07-31 13:23:59
155.   Rick in the UK

Right that was my point.

2005-07-31 13:24:24
156.   fanerman
That's the spirit!
2005-07-31 13:24:49
157.   Marty
So, is it official that we made no deals, or could we still hear something in the next hour or so?
2005-07-31 13:24:55
158.   Tommy Naccarato
Rick in the U.K.,
Your on fire! Nice work!
2005-07-31 13:25:13
159.   Steve
I miss Dodger Tony. He could turn a sentence.
2005-07-31 13:25:29
160.   dzzrtRatt
Yes we can have a "lively debate" as long as at the end of it I agree with you completely.

Demonstrably untrue, Rick. Kind of pathetic actually. This is a smart bunch, diverse in their opinions, and clever in expressing them. Not your cup of tea, unfortunately.

Well have an ale on me. I gotta go.

2005-07-31 13:26:35
161.   Rick in the UK
No better yet we'll blame the players! Cuz DePo used math and players are dumb jocks who are too stupid to draw walks, and a lot of them didn't even go to college let alone Harvard. They probably think Yale is a lock company or something. Stupid players, can't keep themselves healthy. They do dumb stuff like eat meet, DePo is a vegetarian so he has like a higher regard for life than the players do, so obviously they are inferior beings. Go Team DePo!! DEPO ROCKS!!
2005-07-31 13:26:49
162.   trainwreck
157- Nothing official but it is highly unlikely we made a move.
2005-07-31 13:27:12
163.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Knock it off, RitUK.
2005-07-31 13:27:14
164.   Rick in the UK

Enjoy living in filth and squalor and don't let the door hit your rump on the way out.

2005-07-31 13:27:19
165.   Steve
In one post, Tommy is disgusted by the quality of the posts. In another, he roots on the poster of this sentence:

Oh Ratt so funny. Is there a piece of cheese you missed in your fecal matter search of the local alley?

I think that we could stomach your "objective" analysis if it weren't all the time.

2005-07-31 13:28:09
166.   Steve
Enjoy living in filth and squalor and don't let the door hit your rump on the way out.

What do you think, Tommy? Impressed by that one, too? He's on a roll now. Hypocrite.

2005-07-31 13:28:16
167.   King of the Hobos
We still have the waivers deadline, but we're probably not dealing anything.
2005-07-31 13:28:45
168.   Rick in the UK
Yes Steve that was in response to Ratt's objective post telling me to go watch a rerun of Benny Hill. In law school I'm pretty sure they taught us to analyze both sides of an issue.
2005-07-31 13:28:49
169.   Eric L
This catfight stuff is disappointing coming from the Dodger Thoughts commenters.

Have any of the injuries suffered by the Dodgers this year been re-occuring?

I guess you can expect Gagne's elbow problem. Odalis has had a tight shoulder before.

Valentin - freak knee injury
Bradley - freak injury
Drew - freak injury
Izturis - hasn't had hammy problems before

Werth - again, hit by pitch, freak injury. He may have had knee problems before (I'm not sure).

2005-07-31 13:29:40
170.   Mark
Well, at least Kimi won the Hungarian Gran Prix.
2005-07-31 13:29:45
171.   Rick in the UK
Steve because you are always the most rational person on this board who never tells jokes and never complains or criticizes. Hypocrite.
2005-07-31 13:29:56
172.   Benaiah
154 - You seem to respond to everything with sarcasm, but you fail to understand anything that is said. The point is, Drew had an injury history, however, getting hit on the wrist with a pitch in no way validates that he is in fact prone to injury. You assume that simply because you thought he was injury prone and now he is injured you are correct, but this injury is unrelated to your analysis. It is like deciding not to buy a stock after looking at the P/E ratio and then deciding you are a genius after the stock crashes on the basis of the CEO embezzling a billion dollars. Drew hasn't been as valuable as he should have been due to injury, but it has nothing to do with your "analysis" of his history.
2005-07-31 13:30:05
173.   Eric L
Oh, before I go..

I smell a troll.. that is all.

2005-07-31 13:30:35
174.   Rick in the UK

So I guess getting injured at all is a freak injury. Which injuries are "non-freak"? The ones DePo didn't predict?

2005-07-31 13:30:40
175.   atg12
Livan Hernandez just had another 144 pitch outing... when is this guy's arm going to fall off?
2005-07-31 13:30:48
176.   Steve
Oh, no! Not a Benny Hill rerun! My God! What next? Fawlty Towers? Are You Being Served?

Don't be ridiculous.

2005-07-31 13:31:07
177.   King of the Hobos
Wily Mo just hit it out, 1-0 Reds
2005-07-31 13:31:13
178.   Flax
Rick in the UK. I LOVE this site. And hardly ever post. But your tone is so shrill, and your writing so sarcastic, that you are hijacking this entire message board. And for what? We get your kneejerk little points, which you just keep on making to hear yourself type. Now give it a rest. I'm sure others on here would second that. Sheesh.
2005-07-31 13:32:57
179.   Rick in the UK
Standard DePologist defense of ineptitude:

First berate any commenter who dares to point out the obvious failings in the master.

Second, deem said commenter as a member of, Joe Morgan in disguise, Bill Plashke in disguise, or troll.

Commence making inane witticisms and having conversations that have nothing to do with statistics lest it be revealed that the master's grand strategy may in some way be flawed.

2005-07-31 13:33:34
180.   Rick in the UK

No it really happened. Scroll up if you don't believe me.

2005-07-31 13:34:27
181.   jtshoe
178 - Ditto
Rick in the UK isn't it past your bedtime?
2005-07-31 13:34:35
182.   Steve
Who is this Depologist you keep referring to?

"Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

2005-07-31 13:34:54
183.   fanerman
Saenz over Phillips. At least its progress.
2005-07-31 13:35:30
184.   Rick in the UK

I love this site as well. My shrill tone is only a reflection of those who shrilly defend DePodesta at every turn. I ONLY respond, I never initiate, except for my first post which was completely benign and criticized no one on this board. I must be an interesting troll who seeks to use statistics to show flaws, and logic in my arguments. How dare I inject a common sense debate into this board.

2005-07-31 13:35:35
185.   Mark
Professional hitter Old Man Saenz with a very professional called third strike, in three pitches.
2005-07-31 13:35:42
186.   stevo
179 - should we count your inane witticisms of the last hour?
2005-07-31 13:36:39
187.   fanerman
Where did that originate from?
2005-07-31 13:37:08
188.   dzzrtRatt
Brother acts:

Both Molinas hit home runs for Anaheim today, and then Macier Izturis just stopped a ninth inning Yankee rally with an amazing play at third.

2005-07-31 13:37:33
189.   Fearing Blue
So some people wanted DePodesta to be a seller, some wanted him to be a buyer, some wanted him to pick up salary for the sake of it. Clearly, there are different views which is to be expected, but it would be nice if we get the discourse back to its typical high level of quality. Here is my opinion:

1) DePodesta was not willing to be a seller only 4 games back. Thus, the majority of our major league roster was off the table.

2) DePodesta wanted to be a buyer as he has said many times, but there wasn't anything worth buying. When Matt Lawton and Kyle Farnsworth are the prizes of the trade deadline, it's not like we missed out on much. All we have to do is look two hours to the south to see an example of trading for the sake of trading. The prices that were being asked for impact players such as Dunn and Huff were obviously too high since Epstein, Minaya, etc. were also unwilling to pay them.

As far as an overall evaluation of DePodesta, I think it's very difficult to argue that DePodesta is a below-average GM. There are likely a few better GMs (Beane?, Epstein?, ???). But, the majority of GMs are much worse (Towers, Sabean, Minaya, LaMar, etc.). DePodesta's strengths are his abilities to evaluate players and trades. Overall, his pickups have had much more success than failure, and he's made smart decisions about who to let go. DePodesta's weaknesses are slightly overpaying for free agent talent (Derek Lowe) and sticking with replacement players for too long (Scott Erickson and Jason Grabowski). As far as overpaying for free agents, J.D. Drew, Odalis Perez, and Jeff Kent were not overpaid relative to their market values, including age, injury history, and all. Derek Lowe was overpaid, but DePodesta got caught in a case of musical chairs with just one seat left when the music stopped. In those situations, sometimes you have to just bite the bullet and pay an extra $1 - $2 million / year.

2005-07-31 13:37:53
190.   atg12
Rick, I have never seen anyone so successful at bringing out nastiness in the other commenters on this site. I don't think it is so much what you say but the angry and accusing way in which you it.
2005-07-31 13:38:32
191.   Rick in the UK

Ah yes the strawman defense. Clearly there is no one on this board who defends DePodesta's moves. I must be arguing at the wind.

2005-07-31 13:38:37
192.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Ugh. Life's too short to waste in a chat like this.
2005-07-31 13:39:42
193.   DaveP
I was afraid this would happen. DT got a lot of recent publicity and the kids from the dodger board found somewhere else to post. Increased readerhsip/activity on the board is not necessarily a good thing. I'll take quality over quantity any day.
2005-07-31 13:40:35
194.   Rick in the UK

If you look back up I would say the nastiness started when Steve called my statement that DePodesta was somehow less than perfect "crap". If that is what qualifies for rational debate here, then you should expect nothing less from anyone else.

2005-07-31 13:42:56
195.   Tommy Naccarato
So I'm not allowed to voice my opinion because it doesn't agree with yours?

If you go back in the archives, you'll see that I'm a Dodger fan/Long time Dodger Thoughts contributor that tried to give the benefit of the doubt to the new ownership at the very beginning. They were new and deserved the chance.

I set up opposite to most on this board who didn't like the new owners.

Before the beginning of this season, I predicted this team to be one FILLED with injuries and I also predicted the team would finish in 4th place. Well, they're only one spot away from that. They've lost what? 5 out of the last eight games with the division title still in reach. (or so some think)

And we have no action at the trade deadline.

But if you do read some of the interesting blogs out there, this all starts back to last year when we dealt some solid players for the crap we now have. And come to think of it, you didn't like the word Team Chemistry either!

This team is fast on to its way to becoming the KC Royals.

2005-07-31 13:43:22
196.   Midwest Blue
190 - I agree with your point. There are a variety of ways to make points and Rick has decided to be heavy-handed, sarcastic and nasty. Like others, I don't appreciate your tone. Some other regulars are unfortunately being baited into responsing in the same manner and it is really leaving a sour taste today. Everyone, please lighten up or scram.
2005-07-31 13:45:34
197.   Mark
189- "1) DePodesta was not willing to be a seller only 4 games back. Thus, the majority of our major league roster was off the table"

I tend not to think of the team as "only 4 games back". I tend to think of the team as "47-57". In the NL East, that's dead last, and "only 13 games back". In the NL Central, that's fifth place and "only 18 games back".

The point of the season is not to get to the playoffs. The point of the season is to field a quality team that can win in the playoffs. Even if by some extraordinary occurrence, the Dodgers beat out the Dbacks and the Padres for first place in the NL West, we're going to be crushed by either the Braves, the Cardinals, or the (Nats/Phillies/Marlins/Astros/Cubs). This team can't win 3 out of 5 against hardly anybody.

Also: "As far as an overall evaluation of DePodesta, I think it's very difficult to argue that DePodesta is a below-average GM."

I think it's very difficult to argue that he's above average, either. We have had two seasons with him-- well, one and a half, let's say. His first season, the Dodgers got crushed in the playoffs. This season it's very likely that we won't even make the playoffs. Now, granted, this is a very small sample size, but there are plenty of other teams out there who have significantly improved over the past couple of seasons, and we aren't one of them.

2005-07-31 13:47:11
198.   Fearing Blue
Nice ups, old man! :)
2005-07-31 13:47:31
199.   sanchez101
There is real chance the dodgers may be chasing the dbacks for the division lead. How are they doing this. Glaus and gonzalez havent been anything special after considering their ballpark. Green is putting up slightly better numbers than he did last year, but again, thats all because of the ballpark. Currently their backup 1st baseman/pinch hitter Tony Clark is leading the team in VORP. Vaszquez and Webb are solid pitchers, everyone else stinks. The bullpen has been ok, i guess, if you consider they pitch in the BOB. Theyre outperforming their runs differencial, but you have to respect a team that could be in 1st by tonight. Are they for real (and by real i mean could they actually win the division) or are they set for a collapse like the one Washington is currently going through?
2005-07-31 13:47:57
200.   Rick in the UK

Point taken. But you have to consider as well the level of vociferousness displayed by the defenders of DePodesta no matter what he does. I will be happy to tone it down and engage anyone in statistical debate concerning DePodesta's moves. The problem with doing an analysis using only the free agents on the market is that is not the full market in an off-season. There are trade possibilities as well, and we will never know the full extent to what is out there because many GMs do not comment to the media concerning who they are willing to keep and trade. All I know is that DePodesta has made it a habit to overpay for bad talent. And I also will be happy to debate anyone using statistics on the fact that J.D. Drew is not as good a player as people think he is.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-07-31 13:48:00
201.   Flax
Odalis looking good. On Gameday.
2005-07-31 13:49:11
202.   sanchez101
im just trying to get the "conversation" away from rich in UK, and towards something more meaningful/entertaining
2005-07-31 13:49:45
203.   King of the Hobos
While you guys are arguing. you're missing scrappy get a hit. Vin just confirmed we did nothing, not even throw away Carrara
2005-07-31 13:50:03
204.   Eric L
JD Drew does have a career OPS+ of 133. I can't argue with that. Or his OPS+ of 158 last year.
2005-07-31 13:50:44
205.   sanchez101
Think repko could have a big day? He has trouble with breaking stuff, but mulder really doesnt have a good breaking ball.
2005-07-31 13:51:15
206.   Benaiah
197 - I think we are significantly better than the end of 2003. We have suffered through a bitter and unfortunate year, but the future looks bright and we are finally out of the Malone legacy of bad contracts. Our offense isn't totally worthless and while our pitching is no where near as good as in 2003, if we would have kept that staff we would be much worse off (Brown, Nomo, Ishii, Quantrill, Shuey, Martin). I am not given Depodesta an A+++, but he isn't failing either. I think that he has put us in a position to win in the future and maybe we will even go to the playoffs this year (albeit with the worst record of any postseason team ever).
2005-07-31 13:51:15
207.   Mark demands a bunt!
2005-07-31 13:51:33
208.   Steve
"I tend not to think of the team as "only 4 games back". I tend to think of the team as "47-57".

I agree with that. When James Carville says something like that, it's called "spin."

2005-07-31 13:51:56
209.   sanchez101
Vin's comment about nomo was the closest ive ever heard him come to insulting a player
2005-07-31 13:52:22
210.   King of the Hobos
I don't often disagree with Vin, but his comment "the DBacks got better with Buddy Groom" is just not true
2005-07-31 13:52:52
211.   Rick in the UK
204-- That does not show his true ability. You need to mate his hitting with playing time. That is why VORP is a more accurate analysis of his value. There's no denying Drew can hit, he just can't stay healthy long enough to hit in that many games.
2005-07-31 13:53:25
212.   King of the Hobos
Izzy just doubled in Scrappy. Izzy had no chance at 3rd for those on Gameday
2005-07-31 13:53:34
213.   ROC
re: #153 (my own)

I prematurely commented on a Youkilis to Minn deal, because if Depo=God than BP=bible ;) It didn't happen.

Nice, going the other way Izzy...but stop at 2nd, please.

2005-07-31 13:53:51
214.   Fearing Blue
#197: Once you get in the playoffs it really is a crapshoot. Based on some of the papers I've read discussing winning percentages in a 7 game series, the worst team in the playoffs still has about a 30% chance of beating the best team. Everyone would be happier if we made the playoffs, even if we made it as a 78 - 84 team.

Even if you think that DePodesta is only average, that's really not a bad position considering the group of people he's being compared to. My personal opinion is that he's in the top third of GMs, somewhat objectively and somewhat subjectively. I've analyzed all of his trades and all of his 2005 free agent pickups and so far he has done better than average in both categories.

2005-07-31 13:53:58
215.   stevo
209--didnt hear what did he say?
2005-07-31 13:54:21
216.   King of the Hobos
Nice play by Gall
2005-07-31 13:54:54
217.   sanchez101
nice play's by the cards. Whats with vinny and the latin. I know hes old, but, im assuming we spoke english back then.
2005-07-31 13:55:25
218.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Vin quotes Julius Caesar!
2005-07-31 13:55:32
219.   Benaiah
211 - He is prone to injury, however even if he only plays 100-120 games a year, his bat has enough life to make him very valuable.
2005-07-31 13:56:43
220.   bokonon42
Is VORP is a position relative stat (e.g. Drew is X points better than a replacement level RF)? The biggest problem I have with using VORP is that I don't know what it means. The formula is proprietary.
2005-07-31 13:56:48
221.   Eric L

Yeah, but I think the point we were trying to make earlier is that Drew's time missed due to injury this year wasn't anything reoccuring.

Among right fielders, JD Drews VORP this year is 30.5 which is good enough for 6th best among ML right fielders.

2005-07-31 13:56:53
222.   sanchez101
215. Scully was talking about groom getting traded from the yankees, wich he found perplexing considering their lack of pitchers, "...and the Yankees really need pitchers, I mean they just signed Hideo Nomo"
2005-07-31 13:57:56
223.   fanerman
What did he say?

Et tu, Nomo?

2005-07-31 13:58:42
224.   sanchez101
with no edmonds in the lineup, is Pujols getting the Bonds treatment?
2005-07-31 13:58:48
225.   Steve
222 -- He was watching last September, just like the rest of us.
2005-07-31 13:58:58
226.   trainwreck
209- I am in the bay area so could you tell me what Vin said about Nomo?
2005-07-31 13:59:34
227.   Jim Hitchcock
Is it safe to come in now?
2005-07-31 13:59:36
228.   Spageticus
Man, I just got to work. Couldn't get the Bums game on XM. Anyone else having this problem? Not even en espanol. This is what I pay $12.95 for a month? To miss Vin say "... and a very pleasant good afternoon" to me? What the heck.
2005-07-31 13:59:39
229.   sanchez101
223. hilarious
2005-07-31 13:59:44
230.   ROC
Hey, Aurillia is right...he can help the Dodgers win the division.
2005-07-31 13:59:47
231.   ddger
Can we possibly get a QS from Perez against STL? Our starters haven't been doing too well lately (Perez was the last one to give us QS).

STL lineup is mostly subs today, maybe that's why Perez is doing well.

2005-07-31 14:00:26
232.   Benaiah
222 - That is close to an insult, that said Nomo is D-U-N, stick a fork in him, burnt. Nomo was a trooper and I wouldn't mind him even getting a HoF vote or two (first Asian and all that), but he should sit out a year or three and see if he can find some life for his fastball. He made a great comeback once already, though I imagine it gets harder everytime.
2005-07-31 14:00:58
233.   Odysseus
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how having a knee injury in the past makes it more likely to suffer a broken wrist. I have yet to see anything remotely based on science or logic that supports this argument. What I have seen is a lot of "of course Drew got hurt, he's injury prone, DePo is an idiot."

If it were Drew's KNEE that had been hurt, this might be a passable argument.

2005-07-31 14:01:20
234.   Fearing Blue
#200: I did this analysis about a month ago and DePodesta at that point had gotten better than average value from his 2005 free agent pickups vs. the rest of the 2005 free agent class. Jon posted the results on this board. This type of analysis does not evaluate DePodesta for trades he did not make, but it does compare his abilities on the free agent market to other GMs. Additionally, I've tried to place some structure around trade value and so far adding up all of DePodesta's trades, I'd estimate he's received about 55% of the value vs. the 45% the other side has received. Again, better than average but it does not take into account deals left undone.

Of course, the problem is that none of us can evaluate deals left undone. You want to argue that he's worse because of deals he did not do. I can just as easily argue that DePodesta is better because of deals he did not do. Since there's no data on either side, perhaps we should just call it a wash?

2005-07-31 14:02:04
235.   sanchez101
could really use a dp hear
2005-07-31 14:02:36
236.   al bundy
I've noticed all the venom. So I'm just checking. Do y'all realize that RICK IN THE UK = DODGER BOY? They are, IMO, one and the same.
2005-07-31 14:03:12
237.   Odysseus
Evaluating GMs based on trades they did not make sounds awfully unsabre to me. It sounds a lot like evaluating a 3B unfavorable because he has man-boobs.
2005-07-31 14:04:04
238.   capdodger
Oh those bases on balls....
2005-07-31 14:04:06
239.   Steve
Welcome to Odalis Land(TM)
2005-07-31 14:04:23
240.   Jim Hitchcock
236 - MArty said he was DodgerKid.
2005-07-31 14:04:48
241.   Mark
214 - I'm sorry, I don't buy that 30% chance at all. That number is undoubtably skewed by the past couple years of the wild cards making it deep into the playoffs, something that has for the most part been statistic aberrations.

"Everyone would be happier if we made the playoffs, even if we made it as a 78 - 84 team."

We would be "happier" for about five days, or roughly the time it would take to lose the first three games in a five-game series. Honestly, I think I would be happier if DePodesta was a seller at the deadline, admits that the team he's fielding is mediocre, and tries to seriously beef up the team in 2006. I don't get that vibe from his transactions (or lack thereof) at all.

"I've analyzed all of his trades and all of his 2005 free agent pickups and so far he has done better than average in both categories."

You're commenting from a position that can't be argued, because most of the players that DePodesta has picked up have gone on the DL for extended periods. If I say you're wrong, you merely point to the injuries as a cop out. "Well, if Drew hadn't been hurt, and if Bradley hadn't been hurt, we'd be in first place easy!" You just don't know that for certain.

The reality is that the Dodgers are a sub-.500 team. An above-average GM would be able to compensate for injuries to his squad, instead of keeping Jason Grabowski on the payroll. An above-average GM wouldn't have signed Scott Erickson in the first place. An above-average GM would have gotten rid of the impending contractual disaster that is Jeff Weaver.

2005-07-31 14:07:17
242.   Fearing Blue
#211: A better analysis is based on WARP because it takes into account defensive contributions. Besides his offensive contributions, Drew is a tremendous defensive player. The free agent cost for 1 point of WARP is about $2 million. So, to justify an $11 million contract, Drew would have to put up roughly 5.5 WARP. So far, even with his injuries, he has put up 4.9 WARP. Assuming he comes back early September, it will likely be a break-even investment this year. But, estimating that Drew would only play 100 games would have been extremely pessimistic. Based on his playing time history, assuming 135 games / year from Drew is much more reasonable. Projecting out his current WARP-rate to 135 games gives a total of 9.1 WARP which is a very good value for $11 million.
2005-07-31 14:08:49
243.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
After Gall's catch to end the third, Vin said:
"Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est."
2005-07-31 14:09:16
244.   ddger
Oops. Spoke too soon. Perez's luck ran out.
2005-07-31 14:09:26
245.   capdodger
241 - Why is Weaver a contractural disaster? Remeber that Evans got him for Kevin Brown. He'll be a free agent, the Dodgers will recieve a draft pick, and they'll see about a replacement in the off season.
2005-07-31 14:09:40
246.   bokonon42
241- An above-average GM would be able to compensate for injuries to his squad, instead of keeping Jason Grabowski on the payroll.

Not an above-average GM in his second year. In two or three more years, if he doesn't have a farm system with some balance, it will be his fault. But you can't blame him for all the Dodger prospects' being in AA.

2005-07-31 14:10:38
247.   Benaiah
241 - We are definately a sub-.500 team, but in the playoffs we still might have a shot. We have decent pitching, and Drew will be back. It is not inconceivable that we would be playing the Phillies or the Mets, both of whom would be beatable.
2005-07-31 14:10:55
248.   Steve
241 -- Since you know I agree with you about Weaver, I'll feel safe asking why you think he is an "impending contractual disaster." Is that because you believe DePodesta will resign him at Milton-like rates? Because offering him arbitration does not seem like the worst case scenario here. If he accepts, he gets a one year deal which is probably comparable to the pitchers who signed last winter (Ortiz money?) Not that that's cheap, but it is one year. More likely, since he has commensurate numbers, he turns down arbitration, gets 3/24 or whatever, and becomes some other team's headcase.

That said, I would have liked to have seen HIM in Washington for Brad Wilkerson.

2005-07-31 14:11:20
249.   sanchez101
if the dodgers couldve gotten an harang-type pitcher in a separate deal, i wouldve really liked to see weaver traded for some one to help out next year. Of course he could still be traded in the next month
2005-07-31 14:11:28
250.   ddger
If Perez pitches this bad against STL with only 2 starters in their lineup, how will he ever pitch against STL if we meet them in the playoffs (wishful thinking)?
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-07-31 14:11:31
251.   Benaiah
Aflac trivia: George Sisler?
2005-07-31 14:12:22
252.   Steve
251 -- Was the question "Whose rotting corpse would perform better at first base than Jason Phillips?"
2005-07-31 14:12:26
253.   Fearing Blue
#241: Unfortunately, I don't have my academic papers with me, because I'm visitting family, but I do believe it was around 30%, not based on historicals, but based on a statistical analysis of team qualities. For instance, let's say the Dodgers true talent level is a .450 winning percentage and the Braves true talent leve is a .575 winning percentage. That difference is conservative, but still not that large. In baseball the difference between the worst team and the best team is a lot closer than any other professional sport.
2005-07-31 14:13:37
254.   stevo
241 - erickson pitched very well during spring training and deserved a roster spot at the time if you can't remember just a few months ago. And what about the fact that depo has kept the mlb's best farm system in tact and not traded them all away for over-priced quick-fixes.
2005-07-31 14:15:02
255.   Odysseus

Injuries are not a copout if they are based on unforeseeable injuries.

If Drew had missed significant periods of time because of a knee injury, those saying "I told you so" would have a valid point.

Valentin and Drew have missed significant time because of broken bones after being hit by pitches. Unless someone can point to a reputable source that shoes that medical science has advanced to the point where MRIs or some other diagnostic equipment can predict the likelihood that a player will suffer a broken wrist, and the likelihood that he will hit on the wrist with sufficient force to break a bone, this is not a valid argument.

2005-07-31 14:16:55
256.   Fearing Blue
#241: At the time I did the analysis, I used raw WARP data, which is a cumulative statistic, thus it takes injuries into account. I will admit that it was it right around the time that Drew went on the DL, so the numbers have certainly changed. Even now, I'm pretty comfortable estimating that J.D. Drew and Derek Lowe are roughly average free agent pickups. Jeff Kent has been tremendous and Odalis Perez has been below average due to injuries, with the two likely balancing out.
2005-07-31 14:17:28
257.   Mark
248 - We can only hope that Boras encourages Weaver to go the route of Chan Ho Park. Er, sans Padres, of course. Seriously, if Weaver accepts arbitration, how can you not tear your hair out? We will once again have an overpaid rotation, something that everyone has railed against since the Fox years. I mean come on, if the Padres gave up Nevin for Chan Ho Park, certainly they would have given him up for Weaver. Let's put one more guy in front of Choi.
2005-07-31 14:18:01
258.   Mark Linsey
" gotten rid of the impending contractual disaster that is Jeff Weaver. "

Why is he an impending contractual disaster? Are you assuming that we'll give him a bad extension, or is there some other reason? If he walks, then we should get an extra draft pick, so it's not like we would be getting nothing because we didn't trade him at the deadline.

Now, considering that it's a seller's market we probably could have gotten something of higher value at the deadline that via a draft pick, but keeping him is essential for staying in the race this year.

So it's a calculated risk: do you not move Weaver, take your draft pick at the end of the season, and at worst keep the race interesting for fans into September and at best get lucky and take this silly division?

Or do you say that the value in prospects we would get for dumping Weaver now is greater enough and closer to the major leagues enough than a draft pick would be that it's worth it to throw up the white flag on 2005?

2005-07-31 14:18:39
259.   Benaiah
255 - Werth and Drew that is. Valentin hurt himself sliding didn't he.
2005-07-31 14:18:57
260.   bill cox
I have to put myself in the later for shrill sarcasm camp.There is obviously merit to arguments supporting or demeaning Depodesta or Tracy.It's been the ongoing argument on the Dodger radar screen ever since the regime change.It will probably remain so until success is achieved.
I have been married 23 years and have found domestic harmony is maintained by knowing how to have a good fight without digging the shiv in.
The ESPN Dodger board degenerated into so much sarcasm,mockery and general nastiness that I fled here for the general tone of civility.This is a pleasant place to muse on things blue.I don't like some of the tone today.
Rick there was a guy on the ESPN board named JMG.If you aren't him you're his rhetorical twin.Lighten up son.Pull up a bleacher seat and lets talk baseball.
2005-07-31 14:19:03
261.   Telemachos
For those who are strong with the "rebuilding" concept: what moves, do you think, would dramatically improve this team for next year? Is it addition by subtracting (trading away Weaver, for example)? I don't think we have that many pieces to trade that other teams would be interested in, unless we're simply stocking up on more minor leaguers.

IMHO, with no moves whatsoever (either at the trade deadline or in the offseason) and the team already is better -- because our pile of AA players will be that much closer to playing, and (presumably) injuries won't be as dramatic or widespread.

I'm all for getting Dunn now, but not overpaying for him. It's gonna be a crapshoot in the West, and we'll have a chance to pick him (and/or others up in the off-season). Ironically, I think Broxton and Navarro essentially are our "trades" -- and I have an inkling they might be just as productive as anything we might have picked up (the M's getting Foppert and Torrealba come to mind).

We'll see how much help Randy Winn will be for the Giants; if they had Bonds already playing the move would make more sense. And I remain totally unconvinced about the Padres and Chan Ho -- frankly, Nevin worried me a lot more than their team now. I have no idea about the D-Backs.

Basically, though, if any of the NL West four teams has a little winning streak, they'll probably grab the division. And lose in the first round. I don't see the other 3 challengers for the West crown being significantly better -- what remains to be see is whether getting Valentin and our 2 young hot prospects up is enough to give us a boost equivalent to the far-more hyped trades.

Why don't we wait another week or two to see how things shape up?

(And the bitter, angry sarcasm I've read today is annoying. I come here for incisive and interesting discussions, not for "screaming at each other" threads like on

2005-07-31 14:19:29
262.   jasonungar05

like last year.

2005-07-31 14:19:32
263.   bokonon42
Is 241 officially the most popular comment of all time? Is there a prize for that?
2005-07-31 14:19:46
264.   Fearing Blue
#246: That's a great point. An above-average GM typically has an above-average farm system at all levels that they can pull from. It will be much more interesting to see how DePodesta handles injuries in 2006 / 2007 when he has the same benefit. The fact that DePodesta pulled in Houlton, Robles, Edwards, Perez, Rose, etc. to compensate for the lack of high-level minor league depth I tend to view as a positive. It's certainly better than signing a bunch of overpriced, old stiffs, a la the Giants.
2005-07-31 14:19:59
265.   los angeles dragons
Dodger Stadium seems noticeably empty today, no matter what numbers Vinny may quote us.
2005-07-31 14:20:11
266.   King of the Hobos
Perez really doesn't look bad, too bad for the "day game" carried home run ball, it sucks when a ball hits the top of the scoreboard.
2005-07-31 14:20:21
267.   atg12
If the Dodgers were sellers at the deadline while only 4 games back, it would be a public relations disaster. Depo would be accused of "giving up" with the division lead still in reach. I think Depo knows we have a mediocre team and that 2006-2008 is when we will really blossom. I wonder if deep down, over the past several weeks, Depo hope the Dodgers would fall far enough back to justify selling in the eyes of the public.
2005-07-31 14:20:27
268.   Mark Linsey
257-Ah, I didn't factor in the possiblity that he would accept arbitration, but considering this year's FA pitching market I just can't imagine Scott Boras advising him to do it.
2005-07-31 14:21:06
269.   capdodger
Regarding Weaver: Does anyone know what Boras's record in arbitrarion cases is?
2005-07-31 14:21:40
270.   fanerman
I don't think signing Weaver for 1 more year is a bad idea. We don't have any obvious replacements at the moment (in the minors or from free agents). Even if Broxton is ready to move to the rotation next year, we'll still have a Dessens/Houlton-type black hole at the #5 starter.
2005-07-31 14:22:25
271.   Mark

"Or do you say that the value in prospects we would get for dumping Weaver now is greater enough and closer to the major leagues enough than a draft pick would be that it's worth it to throw up the white flag on 2005?"

Yes. Weaver is not entirely without value-- some team would have given up at least a AAA guy on the rise for him.

2005-07-31 14:23:27
272.   Steve
I'm bald from Jeff Weaver! Every hair has been torn out of my head and lost cause of that joker. He's on my self-immolation list. But I can't even imagine the circumstances under which he would accept arbitration given the pitching market this year, which will be even worse than last year's. IF it came to that, I could live with the risk.

But, as always, I agree with your fundamental premise. Our entire pitching staff, save the three or four bullpen kids, is a scourge that should be eradicated.

2005-07-31 14:24:08
273.   Brad Bogner
Weaver's definitely worth keeping around, but there's no way Boras will take a paycut, when's currently making 9 million this season.
2005-07-31 14:24:15
274.   Brad Bogner
Weaver's definitely worth keeping around, but there's no way Boras will take a paycut, when he's currently making 9 million this season.
2005-07-31 14:24:56
275.   jasonungar05
Zach Miner and Roman Colon

Who are they? If you had to try to compare them with dodger prospects, what level of prospect are they?

2005-07-31 14:26:17
276.   Steve
Meanwhile, back on the field, Valentin gets on base. This is one crazy world.
2005-07-31 14:26:59
277.   Mark
267 - "If the Dodgers were sellers at the deadline while only 4 games back, it would be a public relations disaster. Depo would be accused of "giving up" with the division lead still in reach."

The man made major moves last year, with the team in first place! I don't think he cares about PR all that much.

2005-07-31 14:27:10
278.   ROC
Whelp, I guess Dunn did the best he could for us still wearing red...

7-0 Cinn :)

2005-07-31 14:27:39
279.   bokonon42
Navarro takes the walk. Two on, nobody out, here comes Scrappy!
2005-07-31 14:28:08
280.   King of the Hobos
12 pitches for Navarro, very impressive

Dunn just hit a slam, ouch

2005-07-31 14:28:15
281.   los angeles dragons
Weaver should be forced to change his "look" from creepy to not-so-creepy. He's clearly the ugliest pitcher on the staff.
2005-07-31 14:28:40
282.   capdodger
Good AB by Navarro: Fell behind 0-2, worked a walk.

Let's see what Scrappy can do.

2005-07-31 14:28:42
283.   Fearing Blue
#271: A lot of the pitching prospects that were being dangled for pitching were not major league ready, otherwise the smart team would just go with them. Thus, the Dodgers would have likely gotten back players with a 2007+ time horizon. At this point, though others (e.g., Nate) may suggest otherwise, we need to be focused on 2005 and 2006 as opposed to adding more prospects with a 2007+ timeframe (we have enough already!).
2005-07-31 14:28:54
284.   Steve alert!
2005-07-31 14:29:00
285.   Spageticus
This day last year I was graduating with my M.S.E. As I sat in the auditorium, my mind wasn't on my future; I was thinking about the Dodgers'. We had made The Trade (TM) and I couldn't stop thinking it over. This momentous day of my life was secondary to something as trivial as a rental pitcher on a baseball team. I don't even own a piece of this team, yet it owns all of me. Is this sad or does it speak to some psychological deficiency?

Today I've been thinking about last year. And the first thing that pops into my head is The Trade(TM) then graduation. The trade deadline is better than Christmas for me, so today has been like getting a three pack of boxers. I didn't get the shiny red tricycle (Dunn), but I also didn't get the BB gun that could shoot my eye out later (losing top end prospects). So I'm choosing to believe I got what I needed in not getting/losing anything. That's the thing about boxers, not the prettiest gift under a bow but they come in handy down the road.
I don't know. I think the humidity here is getting to my brain.

2005-07-31 14:29:34
286.   Mark Linsey
"Yes. Weaver is not entirely without value-- some team would have given up at least a AAA guy on the rise for him."

Right, but my point is that trading Weaver is not the only way to get value for him. Considering the job Logan White has done, keeping him has a pretty decent chance of also yielding a solid young player, albeit one that would arrive several years later. Weaver also helps to keep the race exciting, helps to widen our small chance at the division, and keeps attendence up. There are a lot of different factors. Depending on who exactly we could have gotten I might agree with you, but we'll never know.

2005-07-31 14:29:53
287.   King of the Hobos
Very scrappy fly ball I'm sure, we scored a run anyways
2005-07-31 14:30:30
288.   Mark Linsey
Adam Dunn helps us out right after the deadline after all!

And welcome back, Jose Valentin.

2005-07-31 14:30:31
289.   ROC
Even though Repko only flied out, i believe he put so much scrap on tha ball it forced the error (and run).
2005-07-31 14:31:42
290.   Odysseus
Most reputable sites were predicting about 90 wins (i.e., .555) for the Dodgers (and that that would be good enough to win the division).

Right now we are 47-57 (.452), but only 4 games back (by rights, we should be ten games back).

Basically, we are underplaying our expected level of performance by 10%. This is without the following players for at least several games:

Gagne, Perez, Drew, Valentin, Werth, Izturis, Alvarez, Dessens.

In short, as poorly as the team has played, I think it's difficult to blame the Dodgers missing more games this year before the All Star Break than all of last year entirely on injuries, and if all the injured players had just played up to their expected level, the team would likely be in first.

And despite all that, this team could still win the division. Which says a lot about the NL West

2005-07-31 14:33:02
291.   fanerman
Come on Izzy, raise your pathetic OPS.
2005-07-31 14:33:42
292.   capdodger
Hmm... It seems like somebody kidnapped the Mulder who pitch inning 1-4 and replaced him with Kaz Ishii.
2005-07-31 14:34:08
293.   King of the Hobos
Izzy's OPS today is 1.667
2005-07-31 14:34:59
294.   King of the Hobos
And in Ishii fashion, Mulder only gave up a run
2005-07-31 14:35:37
295.   Odysseus
I meant it's tough to blame it all on DePo, especially in light of all the injuries.
2005-07-31 14:36:50
296.   Telemachos
290- Hi Dad. :)
2005-07-31 14:37:16
297.   King of the Hobos
Billingsley hasn't had his best start, he gave up 3 hits including a triple and homer for 2 runs in the first. Still has plenty of time to turn it around though
2005-07-31 14:37:44
298.   capdodger
Going back to that HR by Grudz, it seemed that Valentin had a bead on it but hit his glove on the lip of the out of town scoreboard. Too bad, because otherwise Perez is pitching a shutout.
2005-07-31 14:37:58
299.   Brad Bogner
You sure we're talking about Billingsley, and not Houlton?
2005-07-31 14:39:02
300.   Steve
What would Nick Swisher cost?
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-07-31 14:40:42
301.   Mark
295 - This is exactly my point. DePodesta fans are currently having their cake and eating it, too, just because of the comment you just made. "Well, you can't blame the guy, the team got injured!"

You cannot possibly call him an above average GM, for the exact same reason! You just can't. If you choose to go the injury route in your arguments, then you can't assume the positive.

2005-07-31 14:41:11
302.   King of the Hobos
Valentin actually got that one, he sure doesn't seem to mind playing the OF
2005-07-31 14:41:55
303.   Gen3Blue
2005-07-31 14:42:09
304.   jasonungar05
even with all the injuries in recent weeks i can recall loosing games on big homeruns by guys who shouldn't be beating any team with big home runs. tucker, vizquel, larue, eckstein..maybe gruz today..

thats just off the top of my head.

2005-07-31 14:42:47
305.   Telemachos
As Jon mentioned a month or two ago, what's frustrating is that this is the year that Depo was going to be proved right or wrong.

So far, due to injuries, it's really an incomplete... and will be until next year.

2005-07-31 14:43:48
306.   Brad Bogner
#304 Don't forget Howard's walk off in Philly
2005-07-31 14:43:57
307.   Benaiah
301 - The one positive thing is that he didn't resign Beltre, Cora, Lima, Finley et al. That we can give him credit for.
2005-07-31 14:44:11
308.   Telemachos
304- Absolutely true. That's the one thing that's really killed our staff this year. Giving up homers to Pujols, etc (even Glaus!) is one thing. Giving up homers to #8 hitters, slap-hitters, and pitchers is inexcuseable, and it's definitely cost us at least several ballgames this year.
2005-07-31 14:45:04
309.   Gen3Blue
OK sorry- I wan't getting posted somehow. I had said that Izzy's raw speed on that play looked as good as Roberts. With time and coaching he should be a good base stealer.
2005-07-31 14:47:07
310.   Odysseus

That's simply incorrect. Take Drew, for example, projecting 125 games (nearly 40 games missed) would be a pretty reasonable, slightly conservative projection. If he had a 931 OPS for that period, the team would certainly be better.

You could do that for all the players on the team. In fact, that's exactly what the original projections of around 90 wins were based on.

Those projections would take into account how many games players would play in.

I don't see how that's having it both ways.

No one was predicting 162 games of 1000+ OPS for Drew.

2005-07-31 14:48:14
311.   Fearing Blue
#301: There are certain things that can be evaluated on a micro level (trades, individual free agent signings) and others that need to be evaluated at a macro level (overall quality). The micro level qualities can be evaluated irrespective of the injuries. I think it's fair to say that DePodesta has been above average in this regard. The overall picture is impossible to evaluate because the overwhelming number of injuries have completely derailed all plans and reasonable risk contingencies. So, yes, the jury is still out, but I believe it is both logical and reasonable to be pleased with what we have seen so far.
2005-07-31 14:50:27
312.   Steve
301 -- I agree with that too. It's all been too weird. DePodesta was smart enough to avoid Beltre/Cora/Lima. That Drew and Bradley would get injured was foreseeable, but the reasons they actually ended up sitting out for weeks were unforeseeable. Choi is not playing up to expectations, but Saenz stepped up and, with Choi, replaced Green. That may have been wholly an accident, or it might have been something DePo planned. Who knows? Lowe...yeah...we know about Lowe.

The Erickson stuff was overwhelming, and I wanted DePo gone so bad at that point. But now the Erickson/Grabowski axis of evil is gone, and he needs to be more proactive about the dead weight on the roster for sure.

2005-07-31 14:51:28
313.   Steve
310 -- But that's a good point too.
2005-07-31 14:52:22
314.   capdodger
Damn.... Cardinals aren't going to let Mulder hang himself.
2005-07-31 14:53:00
315.   bokonon42
301- It isn't having our cake and eating it too. It's an acknowledgement that sometimes you can make the right moves and have things come out badly, anyway. Because there is so much luck, because it drips from every leaky facet of the game. It can make a properly .500 team a world champion or a 100 loss bum.
2005-07-31 14:53:04
316.   Gen3Blue
Poor Kent swung at ball four. He couldn't have lifted that with a pitching wedge. Mulder does look like a wild version of Ishi at the moment.
2005-07-31 14:54:30
317.   King of the Hobos
If only Kent hadn't grounded into the DP...
2005-07-31 14:55:01
318.   Jon Weisman
Hi -

Just went through all the comments. One of those days, huh?

There is a case for DePodesta and a case against DePodesta. How about everyone participating in the sniping - on all sides - agrees to disagree and moves on for now. Let's take a breather, let's turn the other cheek, and let's get things back to the way they should be.


2005-07-31 14:55:06
319.   dzzrtRatt
DePodesta fans are currently having their cake and eating it, too, just because of the comment you just made. "Well, you can't blame the guy, the team got injured!" You cannot possibly call him an above average GM, for the exact same reason!

Because of the injuries, I think the most accurate thing you could say about DePodesta is it is too soon to tell whether he's above average or not.

All I know for sure about DePo is that his moves spark interest, because he seems to be thinking in unpredictable ways. Whenever Fred Claire surprised me, it was a disappointment. Whenever Malone surprised me, it was nauseating. Whenever DePo surprises me, it's a challenge to prior thinking.

2005-07-31 14:55:09
320.   capdodger
Come on Dioner. Do something cool. Please?
2005-07-31 14:56:37
321.   King of the Hobos
C'mon scrappy!
2005-07-31 14:56:40
322.   Mark
310 - "If he had a 931 OPS for that period, the team would certainly be better."

"You could do that for all the players on the team."


Why do you insist on proclaiming many more wins for the Dodgers when there is absolutely no way that you can be certain of it? You don't know that Drew would have had a great season. You just don't know. As I recall, we were all complaining about Drew's lack of performance before he finally picked it up, right before he got hurt.

Say, if Robert E. Lee hadn't ordered Pickett to charge Union lines, we'd all be residents of the Confederate States of America today! The Confederacy had a statistically better-prepared army, and had won more battles up until the third day at Gettysburg. They certainly would have won the war.

See how that argument goes? You simply can't make assumptions based upon past performance. As we have seen with this season, things tend to go South.

2005-07-31 14:56:42
323.   Steve
You can't stop Valentin, you can only hope to contain him.
2005-07-31 14:56:43
324.   fanerman
Yeah. That is the most annoying thing.
2005-07-31 14:57:11
325.   ROC
Wow, Tracy just went anti-scrap. there is hope...
2005-07-31 14:57:12
326.   King of the Hobos
Nevermind, c'mon Perez!
2005-07-31 14:57:40
327.   Steve
YES! Jim Tracy gets it right!
2005-07-31 14:59:04
328.   ddger
are we PH for Repko with Perez? why didn't Perez start in the first place?
2005-07-31 14:59:25
329.   capdodger
So this means Ledee into right in the top of the next inning?
2005-07-31 15:00:05
330.   fanerman
What just happened?
2005-07-31 15:01:01
331.   ddger
WOW, we just wasted Repko and Perez. This is getting ridiculous.
2005-07-31 15:01:17
332.   bokonon42
330- Ledee in for Scrapko.
2005-07-31 15:01:18
333.   capdodger
Great... So we just lost Perez.
2005-07-31 15:02:06
334.   ROC
Ledee is nice now, cuz if JT swapped in Hee-sizzle for Antonio I woulda had to name my first born "Jim".
2005-07-31 15:02:14
335.   Mark Linsey
Tracy PH repko with perez, then PH perez with ledee.

I approve of the first move, but are Perez's splits enough to warrant burning him? Anyone have Perez's splits.

In the meantime, let's go Ledee!

2005-07-31 15:02:35
336.   ddger
Hope Ledee hits a HR to rescue Tracy.
2005-07-31 15:02:35
337.   Odysseus

If your argument is that you can't possibly make predictions based upon past statistical performance, I don't know what the point is to having this debate.

Because if that's the case, then we're left with nothing except gut feelings and pure luck.

Based upon the arguments and data I have seen, a player's past statistics are the best predicter of future performance.

No one is claiming it is a guarantee, just that it's better than anything else. To accuse me of "proclaiming many more wins for the Dodgers" is simply an untrue characterization of my argument.

I think that based on statistics, if the team was in average health, the team would be about 10% better. That's not really that outlandish of a claim.

2005-07-31 15:02:38
338.   capdodger
327 - You spoke too soon Steve. JT wasted Perez w/o an AB.
2005-07-31 15:03:16
339.   brendan glynn
It seems like Lawton was had cheaply enough. Please walk Ledee
2005-07-31 15:03:30
340.   Mark demands a suicide squeeze!
2005-07-31 15:04:16
341.   ROC
#331 - Repko not wasted, and we still have righties left for King.

Oh no, Ricky...ball four :(

2005-07-31 15:04:21
342.   coachbean
ricky looked really stupid there!!!!
2005-07-31 15:04:21
343.   ddger
Tracy is MAD!!!!
2005-07-31 15:04:38
344.   King of the Hobos
Ledee strikes out on ball 4. That's sad we didn't score, now the relief corps (of either team) will destroy the Dodgers
2005-07-31 15:04:42
345.   Steve
The Jim Tracy Marching & Chowder Society takes another direct hit.
2005-07-31 15:05:17
346.   bokonon42
Perez splits

Left .327 .389 .490 AB-49
Right .338 .401 .429 AB-133

2005-07-31 15:05:30
347.   Steve
343 -- At himself, I hope.
2005-07-31 15:06:15
348.   capdodger
Ricky swung at ball four? I muted my feed and closed my eyes so that I wouldn't have to watch it.
2005-07-31 15:07:16
349.   Uncle Miltie
Jimbo is a baboon.
against rhp
AP .338/.401/.429
RL .291/.346/.439
2005-07-31 15:09:15
350.   Gen3Blue
Wow, I didn't think you could throw lower than Kent's last pitch without bouncing it. Its just one of those days, and we made it through the trade deadline without giving up the farm-go D's
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-07-31 15:09:21
351.   Benaiah
348 - Yeah I was about to jump up as we tied the game on an extremely low ball four, when Ricky tried to go Tiger Woods on it and K'ed.
2005-07-31 15:09:34
352.   ddger
I guess Perez and Choi are in the same doghouse these days.
2005-07-31 15:09:46
353.   Landonkk
Ledee is rapidly climbing up my "You P.O.S." list.

The "You P.O.S." list (TM) is calculated by taking the number of times I yell "You P.O.S." at a certain player divided my the amount of AB's said player has.

2005-07-31 15:10:15
354.   Uncle Miltie
Jimbo uses Perez and Choi as decoys.
2005-07-31 15:10:42
355.   capdodger
Wow... Just wow.

There's really no reason to pull him back in that situation. Not that it mattered all that much, because even if he had hit, and made an out, he would have been subbed in next inning for defensive reasons.

2005-07-31 15:11:18
356.   Marty
353. LOL!
2005-07-31 15:11:27
357.   Odysseus
at least phillips isn't starting
2005-07-31 15:11:39
358.   Mark
337 - You're missing my point. Here it is: people cannot say "DePodesta is a great GM! His transactions have been first class!" and then, when challenged to prove their position, say, "well, I can't prove that statement, because the team is injured. But statistically he's a great GM!"

Statistically, on April 5th, every GM was a great GM, because every team was tied for first place. We cannot call DePodesta a great GM until we see two things: one, how his original plan plays out, and two, how he handles adversity. We won't be able to see point one this year, clearly due to the injuries. You can't say his plan was a great one just because of numbers.

You can, however, talk about point two, which is how he has handled setbacks to the plan. His response was Jason Grabowski. You tell me what that says.

2005-07-31 15:13:22
359.   Spageticus
Tracy is a super-nice guy, everytime I've seen him after a game (except in Kansas City) he always signs for the kids and the adults. But even his mother wouldn't love him after that move. It's like he was trying to ouy LaRussa Larussa.
2005-07-31 15:13:43
360.   Spageticus
2005-07-31 15:14:32
361.   Landonkk
For clarification, Jim Tracy is untouchable atop the "You P.O.S." list (TM)

(Managers P.O.S. ratios are calculated a little differently than a players)

2005-07-31 15:16:53
362.   Uncle Miltie
Jimbo made the right move taking out Perez.
2005-07-31 15:17:08
363.   Mark Linsey
On the flip side, Al Reyes has a 3.63 ERA vs. lhb and 2.31 against rhb. The peripherals are a bit closer with 18/5 and 25/9 k/bb ratios vs lhb and rhb respectively.

So especially if you measure pitching with ERA, you can make a case for putting in the left-handed batter. But I still would have kept Perez in given his overall better offensive performance, even against rhp.

And if you really wanted to be sneaky and play this swapping game, I got the impression that given all those walks LaRussa was going to pull Mulder regardless, and Reyes was the only guy ready in the pen, so you could have at least started out with Ledee and saved Perez for another at-bat. If LaRussa decides to leave in Mulder to maintain they lefty/righty matchup I'd say that's even better, given how he was pitching.

2005-07-31 15:17:13
364.   King of the Hobos
Duaner better be the good Duaner today
2005-07-31 15:18:04
365.   King of the Hobos
Or just put Repko up there, then Ledee


2005-07-31 15:18:08
366.   Odysseus
358, who is making those arguments?

According to what I've seen people have actually offered data to show that the trasactions were favorable.

With regards to the "Jason Grabowski response," I don't think anyone seriously contends that Jason Grabowski was DePo's idea of a solution to the injuries problem.

2005-07-31 15:18:12
367.   Fearing Blue
#358: Jason Grabowski, Scott Erickson, and Norihiro Nakamura but also Ricky Ledee, Antonio Perez, Olmedo Saenz, Oscar Robles, DJ Houlton, and Mike Rose. Again, I'll state my opinion that the depth DePodesta brought together while lacking a productive set of AAA prospects is one of the more positive aspects of his evaluation.
2005-07-31 15:19:07
368.   Mark
367 - Yeah, Ricky Ledee worked out great.
2005-07-31 15:19:26
369.   King of the Hobos
Goody, now Pujols
2005-07-31 15:19:41
370.   ROC
#358 - I think even April 5th is too micro.

Who is a great GM? Beene? Schurholtz? How long was it until they were considered great? And more importantly, how long were they in charge of their organization? Is Epstien considered great already?

I don't think we'll know how good/bad DePo is for at least another year or two...but I feel pretty good about his history, approach & track record to know where my money is.

2005-07-31 15:19:52
371.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
367, Mike Edwards, too.
2005-07-31 15:21:00
372.   King of the Hobos
Why did Perez come out? If Sanchez was coming in, Edmonds was a no brainer. I'd be amazed if Tracy ever thinks ahead (using Perez over Repko included)
2005-07-31 15:21:10
373.   Linkmeister
Oh, futz. How many runners have we left on base this game, and how many have the Cards cashed in? Sheesh.
2005-07-31 15:21:42
374.   Odysseus
What do Choi, Perez, and Ledee all have in common?

Higher OPS than Scrappy Repko and Heart and Soul Phillips

2005-07-31 15:22:36
375.   bokonon42
358- Grabowski wasn't DePo's answer to adversity, Ledee was. Then Ledee went down. The Dodgers have a farm system that's low-minors heavy. That's a pre-existing condition that you can't rightfully fault DePo for.

Your two criteria for judging a GM are inadequate. In a vacuum, maybe they would do, but the MLB isn't one.

2005-07-31 15:23:15
376.   Fearing Blue
#368: A .751 OPS in 166 ABs is about as much as you could ask of a $1 - $1.5 million 4th outfielder.

On that note, I'm finished. I've tried to discuss this rationally, but you just nitpick and offer no rational counter-argument. Have a wonderful Sunday afternoon in your world.

2005-07-31 15:24:34
377.   King of the Hobos
Phillips H&S isn't particularly high, not like LoDuca anyways. It's Professional Phillips
2005-07-31 15:24:39
378.   Uncle Miltie
Jimbo got lucky that they only got 1 run.
Prediction: Choi gets on base
2005-07-31 15:26:06
379.   capdodger
358 - I dunno. It says to me that the Las Vegas 51's were a bunch of scrubs. This makes sense because all the good draft picks from the last couple of years are down in AA ball still.

Look at the team on the other side of the diamond today. The SL Cardinals have pulled up a remarkable amount of talent from their system to plug in for injuries. This kind of a systemic and organizational strength takes time and care to develop. If Depo had gone chasing after the will-o-wisps that were out there in the trade market, he would have scuttled a good amount of the progress that has been made.

I don't believe that my view on this issue is that unique as there were very few trades this deadline. It seems that the sellers were just asking way too high a price for their players. The other GM's decided not to harvest the fruits of their farms for a short -term flings.

With any luck, this decision will seem wise in a few years when the Dodgers have a ton of young talented players. This will allow them to sign the expensive free-agents to fill the gaps and build a good team.

2005-07-31 15:27:02
380.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Ledee's EQA: .265
Ledee's VORP: 7.5 in 178 PAs.
2005-07-31 15:27:04
381.   Marty
Reyes really looks like a Cardinals version of Carrera
2005-07-31 15:27:06
382.   Mark
376 - And a clutch strikeout, to be sure.

Enjoy your afternoon while having a grand old time cheering on a sub-.500 team. This team needs a Stalin-esque purge, starting at the top.

2005-07-31 15:29:16
383.   ROC
Wow, Choi already crashed into & hurt Rolen. He had a chance to do the same with the "runner-up MVP" there.
2005-07-31 15:29:29
384.   Marty
382. It just HAD a Stalinesque purge starting at the top less than 2 years ago.
2005-07-31 15:29:39
385.   capdodger
Why is IZZY faking the bunt when they're down two runs???
2005-07-31 15:31:37
386.   Uncle Miltie
Jimbo was planning on bunting. He woke up and saw that the score was now 4-2. Jimbo probably would have done the happy dance had Choi not gotten on base.
2005-07-31 15:31:38
387.   Odysseus
382, if this team were four games better would you be happy?

Because that would mean that the team would be in first place, yet still below .500.

That's a serious question.

I for one am disappointed in this season, but I don't think that it's a fireable offense for DePo (which is different from saying we can't judge him, in case you're curious)

2005-07-31 15:32:26
388.   the OZ
358 -

I think you've got to take a look at a GM's process to gauge their effectiveness. The guy in Arizona signed Russ Ortiz to a 4-year deal richer than Lowe's, then added $40M worth of "injury-prone" Troy Glaus and extended Shawn Green at $8M per year until his 35th or 36th birthday. His goal, seemingly, was to add whatever players were available at whatever price it took to get them.

Look at Brian Sabian in Frisco. His process is to add as many old players as he can at the expense of draft picks and young, cheap players. He traded Joe Nathan and someone else (Francisco Liriano?) for AJ Pierzynski, then let Pierzynski walk the following season. He sent Jerome William and another guy to the Cubs for an expensive setup man, LaTroy Hawkins. Before the deadline, he sent his last remaining young potential contributors to the Mariners for an old, average outfielder in Randy Winn (Foppert and Torrealba, who should have been starting every day except for the fact that Sabian signed Matheny to a 3-year deal).

DePodesta is looking to leverage his team's strengths against what players are available. He has proven this past month that he sees 3 years down the road, when we'll be running away with the division. His process seems to be solid and well-thought out. I'm not terribly discouraged that he didn't badly overpay to add a marginal player, like the Padres did with Randa.

2005-07-31 15:34:01
389.   bokonon42
382- This is what's wrong with the brave people who dare to challange what all we DePo loyalists hold dear. One strikeout makes any point? Any at all?

Ever play blackjack? If the dealer is showing a four, and you have eleven, and you double down, but the dealer ends up winning, was it stupid to double down? Or was it an unlucky (and unlikely) bad outcome?

2005-07-31 15:37:08
390.   Uncle Miltie
The D-backs signed Ortiz for 4 years $33 million. They were both horrible signing at the time and obviously now too.
2005-07-31 15:37:49
391.   Mark
387- "382, if this team were four games better would you be happy?"

No, I'd be anticipating getting killed in the playoffs. There's a bit of Chicago or Boston in me, I guess.

I'd be happy if this team were 15 games better. That would make us 62-42, which is worthy of respect. I don't want to be the one-eyed man in the land of the blind. I want to be better than that.

2005-07-31 15:39:20
392.   the OZ
Who is playing third base? They were, like, 15 feet off the line on Gudzakdkkke's double. Not that it would have mattered, given the ball almost hit the bag, but stil...
2005-07-31 15:41:39
393.   bokonon42
2005-07-31 15:42:01
394.   Mark
389 - As with any game against the house, if you play blackjack for any long period of time, you lose money. I'm going to go all sorts of Matthew Broderick geeky on you and say "the only way to win is not to play."
2005-07-31 15:42:02
395.   King of the Hobos
Pitch out on the wrong pitch =(
2005-07-31 15:43:00
396.   Uncle Miltie
Jimbo is burned! LaRussa probably wasn't going to squeeze until Tracy pitched out. Jimbo is out-managed yet again.
2005-07-31 15:44:26
397.   Odysseus

So, unless I'm mistaken, your objection to DePo is that this team, even with all its injuries, is not playing better than the statistical projections?

I for one, would think that being in first place, considering, would be an accomplishment.

Granted, I wish the team would win every game, but I don't think that's realistic, and I don't think .600 ball is a realistic expectation, in light of all the circumstances.

I guess my objection is that what you seem to be saying is that in order to be a good GM, DePo has to win the World Series. While I think we'd all agree that we'd rather win, and not worry about too much how it gets done, I have no problem saying that Billy Beane is a great GM, despite the fact that he has never won the world series. And I'm not so sure that winning the World Series proves that a GM is good.

2005-07-31 15:44:52
398.   King of the Hobos
Schmoll is getting that sqeeze dive down at least.

Padres were shut out for 7 innings by...Eric Milton. They can make all the trades they want, they're not going anywhere. 2 way tie for first I believe

2005-07-31 15:46:17
399.   Landonkk
Larussa made Tracy look absolutely silly today.

Sanchez to pitch, counter with Edmonds, squeeze after a pitchout.

Another below average managerial job today.

2005-07-31 15:47:04
400.   bokonon42
394- Excellent, but that doesn't answer the question, does it? I'm not asking whether gambling is a good idea. I'm asking whether there is such a thing as making a good bet, but still losing.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-07-31 15:47:32
401.   DaveP
this is a sad day. Not because the dodgers are losing... the one bonus I've had in this tough dodger season was finding DT. I can't remember the last game I didn't follow either the dodgers or even suns here on DT while watching the game.

I really enjoy the approach Depo takes with the team. I don't always agree with every move, but I support the direction the team has taken and DT has been a great place to find the analysis that is missing from the mlb board and other media outlets.

Now that the trolls from the mlb board have found DT, I'm done with it. I'm sure I'll end up checking back in a couple weeks and hope to be pleasantly surprised, but it's been my experience that people just can't help it, even when the sign clearly says "Don't Feed The Trolls".

2005-07-31 15:47:36
402.   the OZ
390 - whoops. I thought it was like Glaus's deal, $40M-ish. Not that it really matters, given how terrible Ortiz has been.

Lowe hasn't been good, certainly. But he's nowhere NEAR the bust that Ortiz has been.

2005-07-31 15:50:42
403.   capdodger
382 - I like this team, and will root for them, be they twenty games over .500 or twenty below. Have fun moaning about it.
2005-07-31 15:51:10
404.   Mark
397 - "So, unless I'm mistaken, your objection to DePo is that this team, even with all its injuries, is not playing better than the statistical projections?"

No, my objection to him is that he didn't put together a better team in the first place and that his response to the unbridled mediocrity of this year is to do... nothing. Look, I know the team could have been better without all the injuries. I know they'd likely be in first place, because our division is sucking more than any other in history. But the team was in good -- not great, but good -- shape at this time last year. Even with no injuries this year, we'd be in mediocre shape at best.

"I don't think .600 ball is a realistic expectation, in light of all the circumstances."

Geeky time once again: Master Yoda says, "That is why you fail."

2005-07-31 15:52:15
405.   Odysseus
As Vin just mentioned, there is still the possibility of waiver trades. I recall the Cards getting Larry Walker last year through waivers, and didn't we make a waiver trade as well? I can't remember who though.
2005-07-31 15:53:28
406.   King of the Hobos
Billingsley gave up 4 more runs in the 4th. He really needs to find his consistency
2005-07-31 15:54:59
407.   King of the Hobos
We got Dessens on a waivers trade I believe
2005-07-31 15:55:20
408.   b1ued0dger
#405- Elmer Dessens?
2005-07-31 15:55:33
409.   dzzrtRatt
Just reflecting on the mudfight today. Are the irate, anti-DePodesta flamethrowers "soft" on Jim Tracy? Do they assign Tracy any of the blame for Dodger losses? It's possible to hate both of them, but the anti-DePo crowd scarcely mentions Tracy.

He's managed this game into a cul-de-sac. DePo is nowhere near it. I don't know whether in the end DePo will be any good, but we won't really find out until we get a better manager, hopefully in '06.

2005-07-31 15:57:04
410.   b1ued0dger
#407- You beat me by .21 seconds.
2005-07-31 15:58:44
411.   bokonon42
404- Last year is over. That team, this year, would be much worse than this team, this year has been. DePo has made moves. He didn't make any today. The only reasonable assumption is that he saw the costs of any of the available moves today being greater than their benefits. Is there any such thing as a Dodger fan for one year? Won't we all be back next year? I don't see the point in pretending that DePo can be fully and fairly evaluated after 18 months. You can worry or be encouraged by trends, but it wil be two or three more years before he can be reasonably judged.
2005-07-31 15:59:05
412.   Mark
409 - Well, for a moment I was thinking about registering
2005-07-31 15:59:32
413.   the OZ
2005-07-31 15:59:40
414.   King of the Hobos
2005-07-31 15:59:42
415.   capdodger
Navarro seems to have a good eye for the zone.
2005-07-31 15:59:47
416.   Mark Linsey
Dioner is off to a great start.
2005-07-31 16:00:01
417.   capdodger
2005-07-31 16:00:02
418.   brendan glynn
navarro teach Izzy, Please
2005-07-31 16:00:02
419.   King of the Hobos
That almost makes up for swinging at ball 4 earlier
2005-07-31 16:00:06
420.   natepurcell
what just happened!?!??!
2005-07-31 16:00:15
421.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
While everyone is arguing the merits of DePo, I'd like to point out Navarro is an OBP machine.
2005-07-31 16:00:26
422.   Mark Linsey
2005-07-31 16:00:27
423.   Benaiah
Ledee! That makes up for the golf swing earlier!
2005-07-31 16:00:35
424.   Odysseus
if the earlier strikeout proved that Ledee is terrible and DePo is therefore a moron, does this prove that he's awesome and DePo is therefore a genius?


2005-07-31 16:00:46
425.   LAT
So who gets credit for that JT or Depo . . .or Ricky.
2005-07-31 16:00:54
426.   coachbean
Ricky looked VERY smart on that one...
2005-07-31 16:01:15
427.   capdodger
Ray King, you got som 'splainin' to do.
2005-07-31 16:01:49
428.   Landonkk

Ricky must have looked at the latest "P.O.S." rankings after his last K and had to redeem himself!

2005-07-31 16:02:10
429.   capdodger
Great time for the rally cap ad spot.
2005-07-31 16:03:12
430.   King of the Hobos
Sample size nothing, Navarro has a hstory of a good eye. Although his 38 BBs to 24 Ks in Vegas is easily the best ratio of his career. He may not continue at this rate, but he'll at least have a Phillips eye
2005-07-31 16:03:34
431.   Uncle Miltie
Navarro has been very impressive. I was just about to criticize Jimbo for letting Ledee hit, but I forgot that his bench is empty. The game still isn't over- Brazoban has to pitch.
2005-07-31 16:03:42
432.   natepurcell
is it safe to come out now? i mean, have all the board people gone away? I read through todays escapdes.

all i can say is wow, the deadline sure brings out the best in people!

2005-07-31 16:03:57
433.   al bundy
DePo gets credit for the Ledee hr cause he called up Navarro and and it wouldn't have happened with Dioner. ;)
2005-07-31 16:04:24
434.   Mark
424 - That's rolling a hard eight on the craps table. Now Ledee will be at the table all night.
2005-07-31 16:04:50
435.   Benaiah
Navarros line so far (in very short time obviously)

375/636/375. He has an absurd 636 OBP, I have a feeling that it will go down with time, but he seems to be a good bet to top Phillips's .291 OBP.

2005-07-31 16:04:58
436.   Fearing Blue
Mark Alexander struck out all 5 batters he faced for the Save (his 19th) in Vero Beach, droppping his ERA to 1.89. Now that Broxton was promoted from Jacksonville, I don't see any reason to keep Alexander (24 years old) in High A.
2005-07-31 16:05:29
437.   Odysseus
re 409

this is based only on anecdotal observations, but, I think that JT fits in with the conventional wisdom, and the old school mentality, and that the typical media member or casual fan, or Joe Morgan type feels comfortable with JT, and he is a former player.

I'm sure there are pro-DePo, pro-JT, and anti-DePo, anti-JT; BUT, I would guess, that there are many more pro-DePo anti-JT, and pro-JT anti-DePo

2005-07-31 16:06:26
438.   natepurcell
how impressive has navarro been?
2005-07-31 16:06:29
439.   Gen3Blue
We have a sub .500 team. with luck and health they could be .500 or slightly better. Reality says that 50% of fans must root for sub .500 teams at any given moment.
Over the last decade we often lost to a S.F. team with a lower payroll. Now----we have a lot of talent coming in the next few years, and a base Payroll well below S.F.
Maybe things aren't so bad eh!

Hey! maybe it was good to by-pass the Triple A outfielders for Ricky after all.

2005-07-31 16:07:24
440.   King of the Hobos
Not with Edmonds and Pujols due up. Bad Yhency
2005-07-31 16:07:33
441.   capdodger
425 - JT can have a little credit for that one, but not too much.

If Perez had been allowed to hit and made an inning-ending out, then JT would have had to bring in Ledee anyway to play in the field. If Perez had gotten a hit, the game would have been (at that momement) tied with Ledee hitting for the on-deck pitcher.

But this is all water under the bridge at this point.

2005-07-31 16:08:21
442.   natepurcell
wow great catch by valentin!
2005-07-31 16:08:38
443.   King of the Hobos
Nice catch Valentin! I really like him out there, far better than at 3rd
2005-07-31 16:09:08
444.   King of the Hobos
We need to bring in Broxton...
2005-07-31 16:09:23
445.   capdodger
Valentin tracked Edmonds flyball quite well. Come on YB. Get Pujols.
2005-07-31 16:09:31
446.   natepurcell
bring in broxon! the pujols killer!
2005-07-31 16:09:41
447.   brendan glynn
*358. Mark
337 - You're missing my point. Here it is: people cannot say "DePodesta is a great GM! His transactions have been first class!"*

If I told you not one person here has ever said anyhting close to that will you stop saying that they have?

2005-07-31 16:10:37
448.   capdodger
Anyone up for some bonus baseball today?
2005-07-31 16:11:15
449.   King of the Hobos
438-For the most part, very impressive. He has 3 walks, and a very good eye. No miscues defensively as far as I remember
2005-07-31 16:12:00
450.   natepurcell
lets end this right here guys. come on top of the order!
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-07-31 16:12:11
451.   coachbean
Given how Tracy has a small but strong selective memory and how much he values defense, Valentin just became our new everyday left fielder...
2005-07-31 16:12:35
452.   natepurcell
vin LOVES navarro.
2005-07-31 16:13:04
453.   LAT
I'm sure there are pro-DePo, pro-JT, and anti-DePo, anti-JT; BUT, I would guess, that there are many more pro-DePo anti-JT, and pro-JT anti-DePo

I don't think so. While there are clearly more anti-JT and pro-Depo people here, and the fans here are more knowledgable in the La Times, go to 3 games aseason, real world JT is well regarded and many don't know anything about Depo other than the fact that he dismanteled a play-off team.

2005-07-31 16:14:34
454.   ryu
the white clouds in the background make such a great scene of the ball park.
2005-07-31 16:14:59
455.   coachbean
Well Cesar your bunting finall worked, and it only took 100+ games... Kudos!
2005-07-31 16:15:00
456.   LAT
OK Izzy you did it. Proved you could bunt for a single. We saw. now don't do it anymore.
2005-07-31 16:15:48
457.   Odysseus

That's actually pretty much what I meant: that, yes, I think people are generally favorably disposed to JT or DePo, but not both.

2005-07-31 16:16:40
458.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
JT, this is an OK time for a bunt.
2005-07-31 16:17:37
459.   natepurcell
hahaha he walked robles!!

this is a position where i would advocate bradley bunting.

2005-07-31 16:17:49
460.   King of the Hobos
Playing with Eldred? Throw it down the middle and I advance the runner? Whatever it was, it worked
2005-07-31 16:18:05
461.   LAT
MB, leave the bat on your shoulder.
2005-07-31 16:18:10
462.   capdodger
What's LaRussa so steamed about? His pitchers can't throw strikes today. It's not the ball's fault.
2005-07-31 16:18:27
463.   al bundy
Milton's got a chance to do some good. Let's Go Milton!

Cards are rattled.

2005-07-31 16:19:03
464.   tjshere
Bradley's bunting??!!??
2005-07-31 16:19:23
465.   Benaiah
No way, Bradley is attempting to bunt? Our #3 hitter is going to bunt? Would Pujols (not that Bradley is Pujols) bunt in the situation?
2005-07-31 16:19:28
466.   Steve will be having eel tonight!
2005-07-31 16:19:35
467.   Mark demands BLOOD! BLOOD!
2005-07-31 16:19:52
468.   natepurcell
okay kent. this is why you were brought in. GET IT DONE!!
2005-07-31 16:19:53
469.   ryu
squeez with KENT!
2005-07-31 16:19:56
470.   bokonon42
Kent gets walked, here, right?
2005-07-31 16:19:58
471.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Milton, please tell me JT was threatening to have your mother killed if you didn't lay one down.
JT, remove the bunt sign now!
2005-07-31 16:20:22
472.   brendan glynn
so you take the bat out of kent's hands
2005-07-31 16:20:22
473.   al bundy
Perfect bunt. Maybe they've been practicing.
2005-07-31 16:20:32
474.   natepurcell
booooo screw you larussa!
2005-07-31 16:20:51
475.   Steve
If Bradley bunts he kills Kent's AB. That would be ludicrous.
2005-07-31 16:20:59
476.   capdodger
Did Jim Tracy not think of the IBB?
2005-07-31 16:21:08
477.   Benaiah
Nice, Tracy wastes Bradley and Kent. Our two best hitters never swing the bat.
2005-07-31 16:21:08
478.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I'd rather have 3 tries to get the runner home from second, than 2 from third.
2005-07-31 16:21:09
479.   atg12
What a huge lift this game would be! Gaining ground while playing the Cards and the Reds in San Diego... If we think it was hostile in here today, I'd hate to think what the message boards in S.D. are looking like.
2005-07-31 16:21:33
480.   Odysseus
For purposes of comparison

Ledee 335/416

Lawton 380/433
Winn 342/391
Cruz 347/436

2005-07-31 16:21:51
481.   capdodger
Please... Flyball... Please....
2005-07-31 16:21:54
482.   Mark
We must have the suicide squeeze to win! WE MUST! BLOOOOOD!!!!
2005-07-31 16:21:57
483.   tjshere
C'mon, O'Saenz, high drive!
2005-07-31 16:22:01
484.   adg
This situation reminds me of Steve Finley, in that he will be forever remembered for the Grand Slam, when the Sac Fly also wins the game.

Come on Olmedo!

2005-07-31 16:22:26
485.   Steve
Please Olmedo, just get a fly ball. I really don't want to be writing about this tonight. Just get a W.
2005-07-31 16:22:44
487.   Suffering Bruin
2005-07-31 16:22:50
488.   Linkmeister
2005-07-31 16:22:53
489.   natepurcell
that was terrible
2005-07-31 16:22:58
490.   tjshere
At times like this I really hate the no profanity rule.
2005-07-31 16:23:00
491.   Uncle Miltie
2005-07-31 16:23:06
492.   brendan glynn
yep, nice job Tracy. waste bradley and Kent.
2005-07-31 16:23:17
493.   King of the Hobos
2005-07-31 16:23:37
494.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
JT, I hate you.
2005-07-31 16:23:49
495.   Suffering Bruin
I'm walking the dog... this is excruciating.
2005-07-31 16:23:51
496.   LAT
Not only did our two best hitters not hit but they did so against a pitcher who couldn't find the strike zone. Almost never bunt.

Old Maid shows why.

2005-07-31 16:24:01
497.   Steve
2005-07-31 16:24:29
498.   Benaiah
I just punched the desk. It hurts almost as much as having Jim Tracy mangage your team. That was a prime example of how not to go about scoring one run with two men on and 3-4-5 coming up.
2005-07-31 16:24:48
499.   Mark appears available.
2005-07-31 16:24:51
500.   Linkmeister
So we have Phillips left on the bench, and not many pitchers left either. What a chance to miss!
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2005-07-31 16:24:52
501.   King of the Hobos
On the bright side, Edmonds and Pujols won't be up for awhile
2005-07-31 16:25:41
502.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Mabry, Grudz, J-Rod coming up.
2005-07-31 16:26:07
503.   tjshere
I guess the upside is, this increases the odds of getting another look at Broxton.
2005-07-31 16:26:29
504.   brendan glynn

Ledee can't have very many PA's compared to the others.

2005-07-31 16:27:01
505.   Mark
Steve, the entire content of your site just needs to be the play-by-play log of this game. That's all anybody needs to read, really.
2005-07-31 16:27:30
506.   alex 7
It would be one thing for this to be an "aha" moment for Jim Tracy. "Aha, now I understand why I don't bunt there..." Costly, but at least we'd get something out of it. The sad part though is that this isn't!!! Tracy would do this again, and again, and again, and again, because he was brought up in the old school ways. That truth hurts as much as the DP.
2005-07-31 16:27:51
507.   brendan glynn
yhency for two innings?
2005-07-31 16:28:14
508.   Ling Ngoh
And there is Tracy sitting in the dugout, chewing his cud like a stupid cow.
2005-07-31 16:28:15
509.   Borchard504
I suggest
2005-07-31 16:28:35
510.   LAT

Should that be:




2005-07-31 16:28:49
511.   capdodger
It's a time like this where Beane would be tearing up his office or clubhouse. I wonder what Depo is doing now.

Probably sleeping it off after the trade deadline.

2005-07-31 16:28:55
512.   LAT

Should that be:




2005-07-31 16:30:19
513.   LAT
Sorry for the 2x post.

Grudz is killing us today. Why couldn't he play like this when he played in DS everyday?

2005-07-31 16:30:26
514.   natepurcell
if we lose i am going to go crazy.
2005-07-31 16:31:41
515.   Uncle Miltie
Free baserunners...nice Jimbo. The Cards are gonna win.
2005-07-31 16:32:09
516.   natepurcell
i just cant believe this.
2005-07-31 16:32:23
517.   capdodger
No Vin, Tracy missed his spot.
2005-07-31 16:32:27
518.   King of the Hobos
4 pitch walk to Luna. If we lose, this is going to hurt really bad
2005-07-31 16:32:38
519.   LAT
If only LaRussa could put Old Maid in here.
2005-07-31 16:33:28
520.   Brad Bogner
It's going to be really humbling to see Einar Diaz widen the lead.
2005-07-31 16:33:35
521.   natepurcell
diaz is a catcher... he might be jason phillips slow..
2005-07-31 16:33:43
522.   LAT
If I'm Navvaro standing up there, I'm not listening cause I'm thinking to myself "this is so cool that I'm here."
2005-07-31 16:34:07
523.   natepurcell
2005-07-31 16:34:16
524.   King of the Hobos
Thankfully. Do as your countryman did...
2005-07-31 16:34:16
525.   LAT
Turn about is fair play
2005-07-31 16:34:24
526.   Odysseus
that was all part of the plan
2005-07-31 16:34:29
527.   sanchez101
you know, dont these teams know i got things to do today
2005-07-31 16:34:34
528.   capdodger
Tracy: The Teflon Manager.
2005-07-31 16:34:36
529.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Oh, bless.
2005-07-31 16:34:39
530.   brendan glynn
diaz. 5'10 200 pounds HAHAHAHAH!!!!! One of those are dead wrong.
2005-07-31 16:34:44
531.   atg12
2005-07-31 16:34:50
532.   Steve
I am starting to agree with those that argue, beside the objective evidence, that DePodesta simply does not have the personality to do this job. I will put up with 1,000 Plaschke articles in trade for Bradley not bunting there.

As far as Brazoban, I think Tracy's fault ends at the bunt. Who is he going to bring in? Carrara? Hideo Alvarez?

Those are, if anything, similar options to Brazoban, if not a whole lot worse.

2005-07-31 16:34:58
533.   Uncle Miltie
Jimbo gets a second chance. I'll give Navarro credit for calling the pitch...probably a fastball.
2005-07-31 16:35:34
534.   al bundy
It should be Take a breath and fire Jim Tracy.
2005-07-31 16:35:51
535.   natepurcell
if navarro hits a walk off, i will build him a shrine.
2005-07-31 16:36:06
536.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Valentin, Navarro, Ledee. If onyone gets, pinch hitter.
2005-07-31 16:36:17
537.   Benaiah
I can't believe that we got out of that inning in exactly the same way as we doomed ourselves the inning before. The bambino has a sense of humor.
2005-07-31 16:36:35
538.   jasonungar05
vin says as the DP is ending: and they don't have much to say in Panama


2005-07-31 16:36:36
539.   Steve
And there you have it. Use your best pitcher to get you out of the inning.
2005-07-31 16:36:40
540.   capdodger
522: Yeah. Me too. Of course the sum total of that conversation was probably, "What the heck are you doing? Trust your stuff and throw strikes. This is a catcher hitting, he's slow, stay down in the zone."
2005-07-31 16:36:50
541.   jpeace
Oh thank God! A dP to save the inning. Maybe we can get a run this time before Edmonds and Pujos come up.
2005-07-31 16:38:26
542.   Odysseus

It's possible that you're right about DePo, but why would come to this conclusion based on today's events?

It's not like any of the other GMs made big favorable deals today

2005-07-31 16:38:43
543.   brendan glynn
navarro off the foul pole. that's what I want to see so I can take a nap.
2005-07-31 16:38:52
544.   tjshere
I'll be back. After Valentin showed bunt I have to go change my pants.
2005-07-31 16:39:21
545.   Mark Linsey
And by pitch hitter, you mean Jason Phillips, because that's all we got. Although I guess Weaver could bat.
2005-07-31 16:40:53
546.   King of the Hobos
Bring on Hideo Alvarez
2005-07-31 16:41:19
547.   LAT
As this game gets late into extra innings, lets take a moment and give thanks that Erickson is no longer an option.
2005-07-31 16:42:04
548.   Steve
542 -- I'm not talking about the deadline. I'm fine with the deadline. One of the problems of having guys like Guzman is I'm sure when DePo calls for anybody, the opposite GM goes "How about that Juan Guzman guy?"

I'm talking about who is going to tell Jim Tracy that Milton Bradley should not be bunting in front of Jeff Kent. Somebody has got to do it. There has to be a confrontation here, and there's nobody else to do it.

2005-07-31 16:42:13
549.   natepurcell
who is left in the pen?
2005-07-31 16:42:16
550.   brendan glynn
you have to win a game when you get 10 walks.
Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2005-07-31 16:43:03
551.   capdodger
549 - Alvarez, Broxton (?), Carerra, Dessens.
2005-07-31 16:43:07
552.   Benaiah
I am torn, I want to win the game, but if Phillips does anything good then Tracy will keep playing him at first...
2005-07-31 16:43:11
553.   Mark Linsey
Should Valentin attempt to steal because Phillips is such a better hitter with RISP? =P
2005-07-31 16:43:34
554.   Mark Linsey
I meant Ledee
2005-07-31 16:43:50
555.   Mark
Gameday says "Offensive Substitution: Jason Phillips [...]"

Offensive, indeed.

2005-07-31 16:45:03
556.   Steve
Out of bench. How did that happen?

I would guess that Tracy does not go to Broxton for a third straight day. I would vote for Dessens.

2005-07-31 16:45:32
557.   LAT
Anyone think Phillips won't K here
2005-07-31 16:45:50
558.   Suffering Bruin
548 - Amen.

I have stayed away from taking a position on Tracy because I'm frankly not qualified and I don't know enough. I have no idea what it takes to be a big-league manager and I recognize that there are things a manager does that seem contrary to common sense but in reality the manager is doing such a thing because something is going on that we don't know about. It's a tough job.

But I sure as hell wouldn't have had Bradley bunt. That's inexcusable.

2005-07-31 16:47:36
559.   capdodger
556 - Except he had Alvarez up in the pen.
2005-07-31 16:47:55
560.   Benaiah
Sure would be nice having an extra bat on the bench.
2005-07-31 16:48:01
561.   King of the Hobos
Alvarez was in the pen. He gets Eckstein-Nunez-Edmonds
2005-07-31 16:49:00
562.   Uncle Miltie
2005-07-31 16:49:12
563.   King of the Hobos
Weaver due up in the 11th!!


2005-07-31 16:50:10
564.   Ryan Jerz
This makes no sense...does that put Alvarez in the No. 2 apot, due up second in the 11th?
2005-07-31 16:51:10
565.   Steve
Does anybody else remember the game, I think in '88, where Tim Leary beat the Jints in the 11th on a bases loaded, two out single when we ran out of bench? Bob would, but he must be at the game.
2005-07-31 16:51:19
566.   Johnson

Seriously, putting Alvarez in the 2 hole? Shouldn't Tracy just have put Phillips in at C and put the pitcher in Navarro's spot?

2005-07-31 16:51:24
567.   capdodger
What??? What kind of crazy substitution is that?

Phillips at first (batting 9th), Saenz (batting 5th) at third for Robles, Alvarez pitching and batting second.

All this withe Izturis and the top of the lineup coming up in the bottom of the inning

Paging Jeff Weaver. Get your bat.

2005-07-31 16:51:56
568.   Landonkk
i have a feeling this one is going to hurt...
2005-07-31 16:52:21
569.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Did JT just double-switch, with the outcome being the pitcher's spot comes up second in the bottom of the inning?
Can that be right?
2005-07-31 16:52:31
570.   capdodger
566 - Or just leave the pitcher in the nine hole so that it won't come up for two innings?
2005-07-31 16:53:12
571.   King of the Hobos
I much prefer a man on and only one out when Edmonds comes up
2005-07-31 16:53:27
572.   LAT
Alvrez can't find the strike zone
2005-07-31 16:53:49
573.   Mark
Someone is unhappy at
2005-07-31 16:54:00
574.   Benaiah
Why did Tracy do that? Why pull Robles and now you have to pinch hit with no pinch hitters? It is like he is going out of his way to do the most insanely incompetant managerial moves possible. Unless Robles broke his leg he is better at 3B than Saenz and there is no reason to leave Phillips in the lineup since he will likely not bat again and his presence forces you to have the pitcher bat in the next inning.
2005-07-31 16:54:02
575.   Johnson
It's double-switches like these that make me think Jim Tracy REALLY wants that paper route back.
2005-07-31 16:54:16
576.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
With a man on, here comes Edmonds and Pujols.
This is where we lose it.
(In that first line, I misspelled "man" as "moan." Fitting.)
2005-07-31 16:54:19
577.   Suffering Bruin
I'm going to echo 569 here...
2005-07-31 16:54:20
578.   Steve
Consider this for what you will, but his reasoning was that he couldn't lose his backup catcher and had to put him in the game.
2005-07-31 16:54:34
579.   Fearing Blue
#565: I very vividly remember that game. I was listening to the game on the radio while sitting on my grandmother's couch after everyone else had gone to bed.
2005-07-31 16:54:54
580.   Mark Linsey
JT wants at all costs to prevent the situtation where we don't have a catcher if Navarro is injured. So Phillips must stay in the game.
2005-07-31 16:55:03
581.   Landonkk
This would be ok if the media actually criticized JT tomorrow, but we all know that won't happen. It will be Depo's fault for not giving him enough to work with.
2005-07-31 16:55:16
582.   capdodger
Good. Alvarez wants to face Pujols with two on and one out.
2005-07-31 16:55:31
583.   Mark Linsey
(and because Phillips pinch hit in the ninth spot, he has to remain in the ninth spot)
2005-07-31 16:55:32
584.   Fearing Blue
#578: I don't like it, but that is the reasoning.
2005-07-31 16:56:00
585.   LAT
Hey a pitcher is actually trying to hold the runner. That's something new.
2005-07-31 16:56:42
586.   Landonkk
gee.. didn't see that coming.
2005-07-31 16:56:47
587.   King of the Hobos
2005-07-31 16:57:12
588.   Uncle Miltie
Tracy loses again. Release Alvarez!
2005-07-31 16:57:22
589.   Ryan Jerz
578. I'll concede that the catcher has to stay in, but why not lose saenz, who bats fifth, and presumably after the Dodgers do their damage? It seems like he just threw away the inning where the top of the order is coming up.
2005-07-31 16:57:27
590.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
2005-07-31 16:57:31
591.   Benaiah
Tracy mismanages another one. I think we might be .500 if we had a semi-decent manager. This clown gives away a game or two a week.
2005-07-31 16:57:46
592.   Odysseus
if he wanted to preserve his backup C, he could have just pinch hit with Weaver.

Not that it's likely to matter at this point

2005-07-31 16:57:51
593.   Suffering Bruin
2005-07-31 16:57:54
594.   Ryan Jerz
And none of that matters now, of course.
2005-07-31 16:57:56
595.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
I've been reading this site all season and posting rarely, but I have to join the defense of DePo. I know The Trade is ammo against him for some, but after years of those other clowns doing ZERO at the deadline, it was SO nice to see DePo put his butt on the line to try to make the team better. He gave us an ace in Penny (even though he got hurt), he gave us a chance to get Randy Johnson, and he took Steve Finley away from the Padres, which probably made the difference between us and them making the playoffs. I can't understand those who wanted him to stand pat, because we clearly didn't have enough pitching to get through the playoffs.

Sure, I don't agree with everything he's done, but you can at least see a thought process there. Who was the last Dodger GM you could say that about?

And is it really such a sin for him to use some objective tools for evaluating players? That would be insisted upon in any other industry on the planet. Why should baseball execs have to rely entirely upon gut instinct?

For the first time in ages, it feels like we're in good hands. If all DePo's detractors lead to him getting replaced, it will be a sad day, in my eyes. I truly fear that it's a possibility, though.

2005-07-31 16:58:24
596.   LAT
Wilson Erickson. . .
2005-07-31 16:58:32
597.   Mark Linsey
Well, there it goes. Is anyone surprised at this result with Alvarez versus Jim Edmonds?

At least I came into this weekend not expecting to take two of three of the cardinals, and not expecting the Padres to be swept. We remain just close enough to keep people interested, but no closer.

2005-07-31 16:59:25
598.   capdodger
Ditto 584.
2005-07-31 16:59:25
599.   Suffering Bruin
The red dot on gameday shows that Edmonds' homer was not cheap.
2005-07-31 16:59:40
600.   Landonkk
and to top it off?? carrara.

nice game, jim.

Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2005-07-31 16:59:49
601.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Great, I post once a month, and I blow the game as I'm doing it. I should have gone to the slider instead of the curveball. :(
2005-07-31 17:00:40
602.   Steve
He lost the game when he brought in Alvarez.

This is what I don't understand. DePo not only signed Alvarez, he gave him two years. And yet people still whine about the guy with the .931 OPS. It's not the conclusion; it's the argument.

By the way, Mark, has that picture of DePo always been up on BJT? Or do you have plans for it? I don't remember it being there before.

2005-07-31 17:00:51
603.   Benaiah
Nice move Tracy! You pull the second worst pitcher in the bullpen and put in the absolute worst pitcher. Why don't you just put Weaver in at 1B and have Phillips pitch?
2005-07-31 17:01:42
604.   Mark
What are the odds that Carrarra bats in the bottom of the 11th?
2005-07-31 17:01:50
605.   Suffering Bruin
Carrara strikes out Pujols?
2005-07-31 17:02:00
606.   Linkmeister
I move we reinstitute playing managers and let Kent run the team. He seems like he wants to win. Tracy makes some of the most nonsensical moves I've ever seen.
2005-07-31 17:03:32
607.   LAT
I agree that Alverez is stinking up the joint and that wasn't hard to see but with Broxton having gone two nights in a row, what was the other option?
2005-07-31 17:04:50
608.   Fearing Blue
#602: Alvarez was a very useful pitcher the last couple years before all of his injuries shut him down for most of this one. If I recall correctly, he has been ineffective because he needs offseason shoulder surgery to deal with his shoulder tendinitis. I'm hopeful that after having the surgery he'll return to 2003/2004 form in 2006, but I'm certainly not banking on it.
2005-07-31 17:05:18
609.   capdodger
Dessens? Is he still on the team. If so, why didn't he come in there? Is it because he's a "Long Man" and can't be brought in that situation?
2005-07-31 17:06:20
610.   Steve
607 -- I voted for Dessens about 100 posts back . Is he not available? (Really, I don't know. I'm just asking if I missed it.)
2005-07-31 17:06:25
611.   capdodger
604 - Who will bat for him? Weaver?
2005-07-31 17:06:30
612.   Odysseus
2005-07-31 17:08:23
613.   King of the Hobos
DePo has to do something. I'd much rather Dessens, or Osoria, or Kuo, or Phillips to pitch. Alvarez and Carrara were good last year, now let's give to the DBacks, Yankees, or Mets. We can give them to the Yankees so they don't have to give us the PTBNL
2005-07-31 17:08:24
614.   the OZ
607 - I was thinking the same thing. Then I realized: They're skipping Houlton's next turn through the rotation due to an off day. He should have been an option.

Did Dessens' arm fall off? His lack of innings in the face of terrible bullpen options is either confusing or appalling.

Yeah, maybe you have to give Alvarez a shot in that situation. But maybe not. It's worth noting that Edmonds left-handedness should not have been a factor, given Wilson's propensity to get totally mashed by LHB, as opposed to being merely crushed by RHB.

2005-07-31 17:08:32
615.   Odysseus
yeah, I think Dessens was the DT consensus. And actually a "long man" makes sense here, because you'd like whoever you bring in to go for as long as 2-3 innings if necessary. In any event, that can't be the rationale, as Alvarez is supposedly a long man too, although he has been used as a LOOGY despite the fact that his numbers are not favorable against LH hitters
2005-07-31 17:08:47
616.   Uncle Miltie
Dessens pitched 1 inning yesterday so he's probably pretty tired...and Alvarez is left handed.
2005-07-31 17:09:17
617.   Steve
If I recall correctly, he has been ineffective because he needs offseason shoulder surgery to deal with his shoulder tendinitis.

Which makes him Nomo. DL him if he's hurt.

Dessens could have blown the game almost as easily as the others. Would have been nice to give it our best shot though.

2005-07-31 17:09:25
618.   Uncle Miltie
The pinch hitter better be Weaver.
2005-07-31 17:09:46
619.   LAT
Elmer doesn't do much more for me then Alverez.

This has been a game of improbabilities. Maybe there is one more with our name on it.

2005-07-31 17:10:40
620.   capdodger
Please let this inning be mercifully quick.
2005-07-31 17:10:55
621.   LAT
614. Good point. Why not DJ
2005-07-31 17:11:10
622.   Steve
Alvarez is left handed

This is the Wayne Franklin argument. :)

2005-07-31 17:11:14
623.   Mark
"Offensive Substitution: Pinch hitter Jeff Weaver replaces Giovanni Carrara."

Well, the joke bombed the first time...

2005-07-31 17:11:23
624.   the OZ
No, we were going to lose from the moment Milton bunted, ensuring that Kent would be walked. It's OK, we're going to lose today.
2005-07-31 17:12:36
625.   brendan glynn
hearing ozzy osbourne laughing as weaver came to bat seemed appropriate. why Caesar swings, swing, swing when baserunners are needed.
2005-07-31 17:12:39
626.   capdodger
Oh good. It's over. Please do something Paul. Anything.
2005-07-31 17:12:40
627.   Mark
2005-07-31 17:13:21
628.   Steve
614 -- That reminds me of last year when Tracy brought in Jose Flores to bunt at Coors, which seemed really stupid, until someone brought up that Alex Cora had not started that day and was sitting next to Tracy on the bench. Then it seemed farcical.
2005-07-31 17:13:51
629.   King of the Hobos
Is Kuo an injury risk? If so, Luis Gonzalez can't be much worse than Alvarez. I currently trust Carlos Alvarez more than Wilson
2005-07-31 17:14:19
630.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
So distressing.
2005-07-31 17:14:33
631.   LAT
Glad I wasn't at the game. Sitting there since the 7th without beer would have been more than I could handle.
2005-07-31 17:14:38
632.   Linkmeister
All right. They're officially dead. Under .500 at home, too?
2005-07-31 17:14:46
633.   Benaiah
Does anyone have JT's address? I have a tastefully worded note (full of Anthrax) that I would like to send his way.
2005-07-31 17:15:12
634.   capdodger
A gift for the Cardinals from JT. I hope they liked it.
2005-07-31 17:15:41
635.   Fearing Blue
#617: I agree. I was defending the original contract, not the current usage.
2005-07-31 17:15:49
636.   Steve
625 -- What does having a shortstop with a .650 OPS and a leadoff hitter with a .315 OBP have to do with us being a bad team? ;)
2005-07-31 17:16:27
637.   King of the Hobos
Just a few sweeps of the DBacks and we're good. We just need to maintain 4 games behind whoevers in first, then we strike in September. By then we'll have more lefties for Tracy to use. Why did Wunsch have to get hurt warming up?
2005-07-31 17:18:17
638.   King of the Hobos
Izzy, Phillips, Alvarez, Carrara, and Tracy don't use a seperate bus do they?
2005-07-31 17:18:24
639.   Fearing Blue
Tracy was thrice schooled by LaRussa in today's game.

#1) The Antonio Perez fiasco.
#2) The ill-advised Bradley bunt.
#3) Jeff Weaver pinch-hitting in the 11th due to other nonsense.

2005-07-31 17:18:30
640.   Mark
So if this goes to 14, who do we put out there to bat? Houlton? Dessens?
2005-07-31 17:18:41
641.   Blue Crew
I agree with you about the bunt. What did Tracy think the Cards would do after the sacrafice, pitch to Kent.

I ALWAYS think positive about the Dodgers. I have my moments, but I try to always think in a positive way about them. However, I had to laugh when Weaver came up. I only watched parts of the game today, so I don't know who they had left on the bench. But to see Weaver come in in the bottom of the 11th, when we know the Padres lost and D Backs won, and we needed the win, it made me wonder about our team.

I am a Depo supporter and have been since he became the GM, but he needs to do something in August.

With that, let's hope they do better this next road trip than they have in the past.

Go Blue!


2005-07-31 17:19:05
642.   Mark
(Sorry--assuming the tie game, if it goes to 14, who do we put out there...)
2005-07-31 17:19:34
643.   Steve
If there is something I am worried about with McCourt, it is that disturbingly bad pitchers appear to be hanging around longer than necessary, and while I have no proof of this, it is conceivable that McCourt is ordering DePo to keep them around. He needs to be willing to eat the contracts of the Ericksons and the Alvarezes and the Carraras, or there is no purpose to having cheap replaceable pitchers, if you are not in fact going to replace them when they cease being useful.
2005-07-31 17:19:36
644.   Midwest Blue
624 - It's not okay. IT'S NOT OKAY!!! AAAGHHHHHHHH!!!! We're a fly ball away from picking up a game on SD. THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO WIN THIS DIVISION!!! AGHHHHHHH!!

(That's my foot steeping repeatedly between the ACCEPTANCE and DENIAL line. It's also the pacifist and I'm GOING TO KILL TRACY LINE!!!!

(That's it. I've blown a gasket. I'm scheduled to attend a Dodger game in two weeks and I will have to do it in a strait-jacket. I apologize. I will retire to my corner and drool incoherently.)

2005-07-31 17:20:45
645.   Mark Linsey
All that and we gained a game in this series with the Cardinals.

Unfortunately these breaks might have ended as the Padres have fallen as far as they can, and now we'll have to step it up a notch in order to catch the D'Backs, who for the past two weeks have been moving at a blistering .500 clip.

2005-07-31 17:21:25
646.   Brad Bogner
Let's all give Jim Tracy a round of applause for yet another loss that could have easily been a victory. First, he has Bradley bunt, then he brings Phillips into the game, allowing for the always dependable Weaver to come in and pinch hit. I'm just itching to see what his encore for the series against the Nationals yields. As of this moment, I honestly want the Dodgers to tank the season, just to ensure Tracy's firing by the end.
2005-07-31 17:23:10
647.   Midwest Blue
But before I do, please, forget the bunt. With the bunt WE ARE ONE DEEP FLY AWAY FROM WINNING THIS GAME WITH OLD MAID UP. He should be able to drive a fly! This whole thing is fO&^&)7e ridiculous. (Drool)
2005-07-31 17:26:25
648.   Uncle Miltie
638. Izturis went 3-6 and should have scored the game winning run and you're complaining about him. Today is not the day to criticize Izzy.
2005-07-31 17:26:46
649.   King of the Hobos
Arizon'a bright future may come to an end. Russ Ortiz had an impressive start for Tucson, 3 IP, 7 runs, 3 BBs, 2 Ks

Even with Valverde and Aquino coming around, and the health of Lyons, the DBacks also have Groom and Worrell.

And they've been a little too healthy this year

2005-07-31 17:28:09
650.   Brad Bogner
I can't forget the bunt. With Bradley up, all you need is a single. He gets the double play, you still have at least Kent up. Tracy obviously didn't think about the fact that LaRussa would clearly have Kent walked. With Bradley and Kent coming up with guys on first and second, nobody out, it's impossible to forget.
Show/Hide Comments 651-700
2005-07-31 17:28:32
651.   the OZ
645 - I don't think the Padres have fallen as far as they can. I think they'll finish close to 4th. They've entered the super-injury phase of their season and will fall off a cliff just like we did.
2005-07-31 17:29:57
652.   capdodger
Clean up on Aisles 644 and 647.
2005-07-31 17:30:14
653.   the OZ
On another note, ESPN has officially become the "Manny Ramirez wasn't traded" channel. That's about the extent of their programming I've seen today.
2005-07-31 17:32:10
654.   Brad Bogner
At least will have plenty of excellent material tomorrow though.
2005-07-31 17:36:31
655.   Mark Linsey

Considering the circumstances I think bringing in Phillips and Weaver to PH were fine, but the real disaster was needlessly burning Antonio Perez to make a pinch hit non-appearance. Of course, it's possible that this would have lead to Perez staying in that spot and Ledee not hitting his 8th inning homer, but still you can't judge these moves without hindsight, and without hindsight wasting Perez was as big a crime as making Bradley bunt.

2005-07-31 17:36:49
656.   Mark Linsey
can't judge these moves WITH hindsight, rather
2005-07-31 17:41:49
657.   capdodger
The thing is, Kent was probably going to be walked no matter what. Consider the following scenarios:

Bradley gets a hit or walks: Game over or bases loaded with Kent up.

Bradley grounds into a single out: Second and third or first and second, one out. Kent up. LaRussa still probably walks Kent, because only the lead runner matters. Saenz up bases loaded.

Bradley flies w/o advancing lead runner: Runners hold. Kent up with a positive history vs pitcher (SS concerns aside) and one out.

Bradley flies out deep, advances lead runner:
Runners on first, Kent up, 1 out. LaRussa walks Kent to pitch to Olmedo and set up the force.

Bradley grounds into DP: Runner on third, two out. Kent walked because of history with the pitcher (4-9). Runners on first and third one out.

The point of all this is to say that it wasn't so much a choice between Kent and Saenz, as it was a choice between Bradley and Saenz. Kent was likely going to get a free pass if he came up with either first or second open.

2005-07-31 17:43:42
658.   capdodger
Bradley grounds into a single out: Second and third or first and second, one out. Kent up. LaRussa still probably walks Kent, because only the lead runner matters. Saenz up bases loaded.

That should read:

Bradley grounds into a single out: Second and third or first and third, one out. Kent up. LaRussa still probably walks Kent, because only the lead runner matters. Saenz up bases loaded.

2005-07-31 17:51:12
659.   the OZ
657 - Your examples contradict your point, somewhat. Look at the possibilities you list is Bradley hits - the first one is, a hit to end the game or bases loaded for Kent. That represents to opportunity cost of the bunt decision, essentially ensuring that Bradley would NOT fulfill the most positive outcome of winning the game with his AB. Some of the other outcomes you list result in the same net effect as the bunt, but also allow Bradley the chance to win the game.

Kent wouldn't have been walked unless there were a runner on third, though. Too much could happen for the Cardinals to lose for LaRussa to willingly put himself in that position.

LaRussa would never have walked a runner to third. No way. A wild pitch, hit batter, walk, or any non-double-play except a force at home ends the game.

2005-07-31 17:51:14
660.   bigcpa
What about Bradley striking out?
2005-07-31 17:52:19
661.   the OZ
please ignore the weird sentence at the beginning of 659. I don't know what that was supposed to say. As you can tell, I don't preview any of my comments before posting.
2005-07-31 17:59:38
662.   Screwgie
Losing doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is we are not putting ourselves in the best position to win.

Before Depo became the GM, I was not a sabermetrics kind of fan. I am still not actually. However, I read Moneyball when Depo came on board out of sheer curiosity, and I was intrigued -- not sold, but intrigued. I was excited to see if this unothordox system could turn the Dodgers into a larger market version of Beane's A's. I was so sick of Malone and Fox and even Lasorda and Claire that I was willing to give it a shot. It sounded reasonable. Whether it worked out for better or ill, it was a great story that I wanted to see unfold.

But I feel ripped off.

We have an old school manager who loves the bunt. That same manager bases his line-ups on defense and undefinable grit. He uses small sample sizes to determine match-ups. He keeps his high OPS guys on the bench for later in the game. We draft high school players who are long-shots and won't be up for half a decade. We give out huge long-term contracts to average pitchers. This is all the stuff that Depo and Beane were against in Moneyball.

If we were losing using a sabermetric approach I could just chalk it up to this team being inferior. But it's frustrating wondering if it's the way the team is built or the way the team is fielded that is the main culprit.

Depo deserves some blame for not bringing in his guys and running the Dodgers according to his philosophy. Lose on your own terms, Depodesta -- not on Tracy's.

2005-07-31 18:04:22
663.   capdodger
659 - That was the point I was trying to make. Taking the bat out of Bradleys hands ensures that Saenz is going to have to come through. Kent is a non-factor in almost every situation.

Whatever... Time to watch Family Guy.

2005-07-31 18:14:58
664.   capdodger
660 - Yeah forgot that one.

Bradley Strikes out: 1st and 2nd. One out. Kent up. I think thats still better than one out having Saenz up.

2005-07-31 18:15:22
665.   bokonon42
The Dusty Baker thing made me think: why don't we get a buzz going for somebody to replace Tracy? How about Ken Macha? I bet the Dodgers could pay him better than the A's do.
2005-07-31 18:20:02
666.   bokonon42
2005-07-31 19:06:42
667.   CanuckDodger
It's odd, as great as Beane's and DePodesta's efforts have been to dismiss Moneyball as a caricature of what they believe, people still wonder why reality is oh-so-much more complicated than what they read in the pages of a highly-entertaining book that for the sake of the narrative took liberties with the facts at every turn.

DePodesta said from the first day he took the Dodgers' GM job that he would NOT be running the Dodgers like the A's have been run, and that was to be expected. One thing that I think Moneyball did capture well is the extraordinary differences in Beane's and DePodesta's personalities. The way Beane runs the A's and the way DoPodesta runs the Dodgers reflect those differences.

Beane's background is all-jock. He did not go to college, but like most high school star athletes, he has a high opinion of himself, is naturally charismatic, and needs to be the center of attention at all times. Beane, in short, is a megalomaniac. How do megalomaniacal bosses run their organizations? They micromanage. Everything has to be done their way, and they are used to getting their way. By contrast, DePodesta is a classic nerd or bookworm. Uncharismatic. Not a natural leader at all, but intellectually curious and sufficiently secure to not need to be surrounded by a cadre of yes men. Quiet, intellectual, and sensitive men like DePodesta always make for the kind of bosses that would not dream of telling underlings how to do their jobs, because they would not want somebody looking over their shoulder either. The management style is fundamenatlly passive, not aggressive. Think Mr. Carlson running WKRP, but with a smart sort of detachment, rather than the dull-witted, oblivious kind. Thus while so many people around here keep pulling their hair out wondering why DePodesta does not fire Tracy or at least confront him, I have not been surprised at all by what has been going on. It would be completely against DePodesta's nature to do a lot of the things people here want him to do.

2005-07-31 19:11:05
668.   natepurcell
do you like depo canuck?
2005-07-31 19:26:20
669.   bokonon42
667- I don't think you know enough to say that DePo is an archetypal nerd. He was on Harvard's football team; hardly a nerd move. Even if he is "quiet, intellectual, and sensative," whatever that means in this context, why should he also be tolerant of incompetence? Unless what you really mean is that he's a wuss. Is that what you mean?
2005-07-31 19:30:36
670.   CanuckDodger
Yes, Nate, I do like DePodesta, even though I did not think I would. That does not mean I approve of everything he does or has done, or has NOT done. That does not mean I don't fear he will disappoint me and do something stupid out of the blue. But I like him, just as I liked Dan Evans. Their common characteristic is that they take long views and show patience, quite unlike Kevin Malone, who never grasped that decisions made strictly for the present nevertheless have far-reaching consequences, and usually of a most unpleasant nature.
2005-07-31 19:42:42
671.   Screwgie
667 - "It's odd, as great as Beane's and DePodesta's efforts have been to dismiss Moneyball as a caricature of what they believe, people still wonder why reality is oh-so-much more complicated than what they read in the pages of a highly-entertaining book that for the sake of the narrative took liberties with the facts at every turn."

I take that as a jab at my post, sir. Of course reality is much more complicated. But why the condescending tone? And hypocritical considering your over simplified, unrealistic caricatures of Beane as a "megalomaniac" and Depo as a "bookworm" -- a "classic" bookworm at that, complete with the standard bookworm traits of "uncharismatic" and "sensitive."

Don't you think Depo and Beane are "oh-so-much-more-complicated" than you present. And how do you base your characterizations -- from the pages of a highly entertaining book that you deride as taking liberty with facts?

2005-07-31 19:54:53
672.   CanuckDodger
Bokonen, have you ever seen DePodesta on TV, and heard him speak? Casting directors for the Revenge of the Nerds movies would have LOVED to have him read for them, he so fits the stereotype. And who do you think is going to play on Harvard's football team? It is a total misconception that nerds never have any interest in sports. They can be downright obsessive about them. They just can't PLAY them WELL, and if Harvard's football team has ever done anything well, it certainly isn't playing football.

I did not say that DePo should be tolerant of incompetence, but I think that he is bright -- and yes, open-minded -- enough to see that Tracy's moves are not "incompetent," as in lacking any internal logic to them, as much as they are intellectually consistent with a pre-sabermetrics orthodoxy that he does not personally believe in but acknowleges is NORMAL in major league baseball. But I can see how many people would think that kind of tolerance for a different "paradigm" translates into being a wuss. Anybody who makes a point of being tolerant gets labelled a wuss by somebody.

2005-07-31 20:12:55
673.   CanuckDodger
Screwgie, knowing that Moneyball is a mixture of the factual and the fanciful, obviously I would not simply TRUST the book to have been accurate in its depictions of Beane's and DePodesta's habits and characters. That part of the book is VERIFIED by sources EXTERNAL to the book, just as other parts of the book are CONTRADICTED by sources external to the book. And I am sorry if you thought I was being condescending to you, but I wasn't addressing you in particular, and had no wish to cause personal offense. Without casting blame at particular people, I am just amused by the phenomena of people getting upset when the real world does not fit well with the content of Moneyball, an example of that being the incredulity of certain A's fans when the A's drafted a number of high school pitchers in the early rounds of the recent draft, something that Billy Beane has explained as being an example of how people should not believe everything they read in Moneyball.
2005-07-31 20:20:11
674.   capdodger
672 - Some nerds can play sports well. I went to a small D-III college in Maine. Our hockey team was quite respected. This past year, the Points leader graduated Magna Cum Laude in Biochemistry and the Goalie now works for CERT building honeypots for capturing and analysing computer viruses. If they weren't closeted nerds, I'd eat my computer.
2005-07-31 20:31:33
675.   bill cox
Wild guess time-Mark you are one and the same as the notorious contrarian Delino4Pedro who posts under various cutesy names on the Dodger ESPN board.
If this is the case(His name is Mark and he recently found out about this board)this guy's act will get old in a hurry to regular posters on this site.He never has anything to say except negative statements,he nitpicks as Fearingblue pointed out and he is too clever by half,kind of like the smart guy in high school that everybody thinks is a joker.
Just build it and they will come works in movies,but can be a drag here if all the flotsam and jetsom off other boards floats in here.
2005-07-31 20:33:10
676.   capdodger
And we Dodger fans shouldn't pidgeon-hole when one of our best relievers is Biological Resouces Engineer Steve "I've worked at the NIH" Schmoll:

2005-07-31 20:51:59
677.   bokonon42
672- Tracy's moves are not "incompetent," as in lacking any internal logic to them, as much as they are intellectually consistent with a pre-sabermetrics orthodoxy

Incompetence doesn't require insanity. It requires being wrong. "Intellectually consistent with a pre-sabermetrics orthodoxy," is a very nice way of saying superstitious.

And while it may not be up to your standards, Harvard football is a legitimate Division 1AA program. What are you, a Yalie?

2005-07-31 20:58:04
678.   bokonon42
Do I get an award for least insulting ad hominem attack of the thread?
2005-07-31 21:00:24
679.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 672

Actually, Canuck, nerds can be pretty egotistical. Academic departments are notorious for their pissing matches over issues of less than serious important--a prestigious university is usually populated by very smart but also very touchy faculty who try to run independent fiefdoms. This isn't true of all professors, but it is true of many.

I do in general agree with your characterization of DePo, though. I do think he's a generally nice guy, but underneath that, I think there's more than a little ruthlessness to him--and I don't mean that in a pejorative way. But DePo is certainly open minded, which on balance I think is a good thing. I can live with a few more years of Jim Tracy idiocies in exchange for DePo being able to keep Logan White on board.


2005-07-31 21:08:57
680.   natepurcell
bill cox, who are you on the dodger espn board?
2005-07-31 21:16:28
681.   Steve
they are intellectually consistent with a pre-sabermetrics orthodoxy

But this is precisely what I don't think is true, and what I find doubly objectionable about Tracy. It has never been pre-sabermetrics orthodoxy to have your best hitters bunt with the game on the line. Never. If one takes Joe Morgan as one's pre-sabermetrics orthodoxy guru, all the time during games, and in situations similar to the one where Bradley bunted today, Miller will ask him if some #3 hole hitter should bunt and Morgan will say "No, #3 hole hitters are paid to drive in runs." Now, the emphasis on the RBI will drive some saber people crazy too (I know nothing original about sabermetrics, I only know what I read derivatively), but the point is that those of us who are mystified by JD Drew or Hee Seop Choi or Milton Bradley bunting is that we can't tie that sort of decision-making to any rational strategy, pre- or post-Moneyball, and therefore assume that it is some sort of bizarre ideological mission to prove that the bunt "works."

2005-07-31 21:17:12
682.   Mark Linsey
675 - I presume you're referring to the poster whose name is just "Mark" and not me, since my opinions generally run in line with the mainstream for this site.

Anyway, I think other "Mark" has been around for a while. Although I could have just missed them, I didn't notice any posts by him before I registered (otherwise I would have made an alias) but not too long after I started posting I noticed his name. So he's been around for a decent amount of time, at least several months.

2005-07-31 21:19:48
683.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 677

I dunno about Canuck, but I'm a Yalie, and I think Canuck's point about Ivy League sports stand. The Yale Harvard game is really about the rivalry between the schools, not about the football being played on the field. This is true of all school rivalries of course, but the amount of football knowledge among the audience at the Yale-Harvard game is far less than what you'd see at a USC/UCLA game.

The Ivies do have stereotypical jocks--the Yale hockey time is well known for being its own little tribe of tough guys (and tough gals)--but it's clear that DePo is not one of them. This is a dude who read Ayn Rand for grins after all.

And college sports at the Ivies do have a far lower profile than other schools. Those instititions would never tolerate the sort of scandals you see in marquee programs in the big money sports. Not to say that they don't have their own vices, but the vices are nerdy, academic sort of vices--the peculiar overweening arrogance of the well educated and privileged, indifference toward practical questions of administration, etc.--as opposed to the egotism of Beane, which is based more on a general air of "Look at how cool I am," as opposed to "You're too dumb to even comprehend just how much smarter I am."

This, of course, wasn't always true. Ivy League football used to be first-rank, but that was the day when Ivy League college students were admitted based on their social class. Football was akin to a modern American version of knightly combat among young aristocratic men ready to prove their manly worth, but now Ivy League college students are supposed to have excelled academically while feeding homeless Siberian refugees in their spare time.


2005-07-31 21:22:46
684.   Bob Timmermann
Sounds like I missed a fun game!

Dodgers vs. Nationals. Interesting. Someone will have to win those games won't they?

I'll be watching some CFL action tomorrow. Everybody can take a deep breath and come out fighting on Tuesday.

2005-07-31 21:23:42
685.   capdodger
681 - Amen, Steve. On many occasions I've heard Joe Morgan say that there's no way you'd bunt in Bradley's situation because the sac bunt ensures that the Cards will IBB Kent to get to Saenz. Tracy just doesn't make any sense in any intellectual or ideological context.
2005-07-31 21:23:59
686.   bokonon42
The point Canuck raised about every of Moneyball's lessons not being immutable is true. But the things that will change are the market-based aspects. Relief pitching may not always be over-valued, fat guys may not always be under-valued (from my lips to G-d's ears). Beane drafted high school kids this year because he thinks the market for college players has swung farther north than it should have.

But DePo hasn't all of a sudden decided that OBP isn't the most important offensive component statistic. It still is. Sac bunts are still usually a bad idea.

Moneyball wasn't a dummies guide to general management, it was an overview of the changing understanding of baseball coupled to the story of the guy who most efficiantly made use of it, first. The second part was transitory, but the first isn't.

2005-07-31 21:27:59
687.   Strike4
I don't think Bradley trying to bunt for a base hit was total insanity. Bunting in July of 04 wouldn't be so smart, but in today's game okay. He's only got about 4 or 5 hits since he came off the DL, he struck out twice earlier in the game, and he hasn't been making great contact. Why not bunt try a bunt to load the bases?
2005-07-31 21:30:47
688.   natepurcell
from ken rosenthal
The Dodgers and Indians tried to acquire Royals 1B/OF Matt Stairs. Rather than accept a marginal prospect, Royals G.M. Allard Baird preferred to keep Stairs as protection for DH Mike Sweeney. Stairs, 37, wants to stay with the Royals past this season.

i cant believe depo went after matt stairs lol

2005-07-31 21:32:25
689.   Eric L

I don't think that Bradley was trying to bunt for a base hit though.

If he was trying to do that, I think he would have "put the bat away" after the first time he didn't get the bunt down.

He was sacrificing, no doubt about it. Maybe it was his call, but I'll blame Tracy until I hear otherwise.

2005-07-31 21:34:43
690.   bokonon42
683- I have no business presuming to speak generally of the Ivies, and if you're a Yalie I don't have any business contradicting (I will try to use small words, and enunciate clearly 8^) ) your first-hand account. Instead of that, I'll just fall back on Tom Wolfe's latest and let you argue with him. Although DePo would've been at Harvard ten years ago, so maybe the scene Wolfe paints is of more recent origin?
2005-07-31 21:36:25
691.   Steve
If Bradley strikes out, Kent gets his at-bat in all likelihood. Maybe LaRussa walks him, but then you put the onus on him to make the decision, rather than make it easy to take the bat out of Kent's hands.
2005-07-31 21:41:35
692.   capdodger
689, Even if Milton was sac bunting of his own free will, it's Tracy responsibility to tell him to hit away. If Tracy doesn't say, "I told him to hit away", then Milton's bunting is Tracy's responsibility. He has, in the past, told players (Antonio Perez, I think) to hit away when he tried to bunt.
2005-07-31 21:43:37
693.   capdodger
691 - No way LaRussa walks Kent if Bradley strikes out. He's pretty by-the-book and that would have walked the winning run to third.
2005-07-31 21:45:21
694.   Odysseus

That's exactly what's so frustrating about JT's management. If he was following the pre-sabre-old school approach, at least we could understand it, even if we didn't necessarily agree. Contrast the Phillips double switch, which I think was pretty stupid, but at least can be explained, even if not in an entirely satisfory way.

2005-07-31 21:53:21
695.   Jon Weisman
I'd ask everyone to read my newest post above. Thanks.
2005-07-31 21:54:15
696.   Steve
Fight fiercely, Harvard,
fight, fight, fight!
Demonstrate to them our skill.
Albeit they possess the might,
Nonetheless we have the will.
How we shall celebrate our victory,
We shall invite the whole team up for tea
(How jolly!)
Hurl that spheroid down the field, and
Fight, fight, fight!
2005-07-31 21:54:27
697.   capdodger
695 - It it about Yalies and Havard Football players?
2005-07-31 21:59:42
698.   Strike4
Okay, I didn't see Bradley's at-bat. The killer would've been a double play, but I'd take that risk to let him shoot for the base hit. How does Bradley look, is he anywhere near 100%?
2005-07-31 22:04:19
699.   bokonon42
Also, WWSH, your line about reading Ayn Rand for grins reminds me of Michael Keaton's one in Beetlejuice: "I've seen the Exorcist a hundred and sixty-seven times and it keeps getting
funnier, every time I see it!"
2005-07-31 22:07:57
700.   capdodger
Seven Hundred
Show/Hide Comments 701-750
2005-07-31 22:12:36
701.   bigcpa
If someone told me DT had 700 posts on July 31 I'd have figured it was the WE GOT DUNN party.

Bradley's a smart guy. How cool would it have been if he foresaw the Kent IBB and purposely fouled out trying to bunt?

2005-07-31 22:20:05
702.   Mark Linsey

"The Cardinals scored a 7-5 win in the rubber game of the series with a two-run homer from Jim Edmonds against veteran Wilson Alvarez, who is so frustrated with a bad shoulder that he's considering retirement. A club official would not comment when asked if Alvarez would make the team's Sunday night flight to Washington."

2005-07-31 22:37:57
703.   natepurcell
we dont have any viable options really. i suppose we could eric stults down in AAA a try. hes left handed.
2005-07-31 22:45:45
704.   Clive Clements
689 - it looks like it was Tracy's call. Check out the game recap that Mark Linsey linked to in 702 for his explanation. It's the 7th paragraph from the top.
2005-07-31 22:49:40
705.   King of the Hobos
Stults or Luis Gonzalez. Gonzalez was on track to the Dodgers it seemed until the AA Allstar game. He bombed and I'm pretty sure took the loss. He was immediately promoted and has done nothing in Vegas. Stults really hasn't done much either. The Jacksonville trio might also work (Kuo, Carlos Alvarez, Orlando Rodriguez).

And then there's Tracy's manlove, Venafro. As for the 40 man, Odalis, Alvarez, and 3 injured guys

It is nice to see Alvarez admit there's a problem and realize he's not helping this team. I would love to have the '04 Alvarez, but he just is no longer that player. Now time for Carrara to realize something...

2005-07-31 22:50:45
706.   Langhorne
I just got home but I have to say my piece. It doesn't matter who the players involved are, bunting in that situation in the ninth was stupid. With two on and no outs, barring a triple play, you have a minimum of two at bats to bring in the winning run. Why give one away? Why give the defense a situation where they can get out of the inning facing only one batter? It may have happened anyway but why give it to them?
2005-07-31 22:57:35
707.   King of the Hobos
Some guys on the brought up a great point about August trades. In our position, only San Francisco can block a trade, yet we can block San Diego and Arizona. I really like our position for August (would have preferred an extra game, but I can live with it for now), and then we get things going in September
2005-07-31 22:59:56
708.   bigcpa
Tracy on the record...

"Look at the situation that developed there," Tracy said. "You know Jeff Kent is going to be walked (regardless) ... what if (Bradley) hits a ground-ball double play? It's the same thing.

"With Olmedo Saenz and Jose Valentin coming up, with those two professional guys coming to the plate, you take your chances."

2005-07-31 23:03:17
709.   Steve
"That word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
2005-07-31 23:06:30
710.   King of the Hobos
Tracy does need a dictionary for that one. Believe it or not, Choi is a professional hitter, as is every other hitter in the Dodgers system
2005-07-31 23:34:58
711.   Steve
ESPN was eyeopening tonight.

1) Jack McKeon inexplicably walked Cristian Guzman with runners on second and third to get to Livan Hernandez. Bases Loaded single.

2) Rob Drake is at it again. Morgan Ensberg tried to take first on ball 3, and the Mets hung Lance Berkman then on first, out to dry. Again, inexplicably, despite being tagged out, Berkman was allowed to go back to first for no reason at all. Understandably, the Mets bench was a little upset by the fact that Ensberg gave them an out and the umpires took it back, and Drake threw out Sandy Alomar sitting on the bench. That guy is a loon.

2005-07-31 23:41:52
712.   King of the Hobos
He walked Guzman? Livan is 10x the hitter is Guzman is. Just about every person on DT could out hit Guzman. Jack McKeon could out hit Guzman...
2005-08-01 00:08:02
713.   bokonon42
Posted before midnight at

Baker Denies Interest in Dodgers
By Paul Gutierrez
Chicago Cub Manager Dusty Baker refuted a Los Angeles Times report Sunday that quoted a source as saying Baker would like to return to Los Angeles to manage the Dodgers should Jim Tracy depart. [emphasis mine]

Now up:

Baker Disputes Report
By Paul Gutierrez, Times Staff Writer

Chicago Cub Manager Dusty Baker disputed a Los Angeles Times report Sunday that quoted a source as saying Baker would like to return to Los Angeles to manage the Dodgers should Jim Tracy depart. [emphasis mine, again]

2005-08-01 00:21:36
714.   bokonon42
Babe Ruth and THE BEAST, both in one night. Not too shabby.
2005-08-01 08:01:37
715.   Benaiah
690 - I think Wolfe was writing mostly about what his daughter experienced (and what he observed) at Duke. His mythical college Dupont seems to bear a striking resemblance to Duke when I was reading it, though I have to admit the parties seemed a lot better in the book than anything I have seen here.

696 - Nice Tom Lehrer quote. The Masochism Tango is probably my favorite of his songs:

"I ache for the touch of your lips, dear,
But much more for the touch of your whips, dear.
You can raise welts
Like nobody else,
As we dance to the masochism tango."

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