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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Unholier Than Thou
2005-07-31 21:44
by Jon Weisman

It was an ugly day in the comments. It happens every few months. In retrospect, with Paul DePodesta under the microscope, I should have expected it - and prepared for it.

So after the fact, and for the future, please do me the favor of reading the following.

I've got some serious reminders for everyone to keep the Dodger Thoughts community functional. With more than a year of comments behind us, I'm a little less panicked than I have been in the past that catfights like today's will become a permanent feature, but I would appreciate all readers - old and new - to heed the following to make sure of it.

Respect all commenters. No one has cornerned the market on intelligence or stupidity, right or wrong.

Respond to the comment, not the commenter. No personal attacks. Don't fire the first shot, and don't fire the second shot either. I don't care how stupid you think someone is. I don't care how much they've offended you. I don't care. No personal attacks. Find a tactful way to defuse the situation, or let it go. And for god's sake, realize how nasty sarcasm can read.

If you have any respect for me or this site at all, you'll pour water on the fire and not fuel. In the middle of the fight, the one time I could check in, I politely asked people to just back away to defuse the situation. I was greatly ignored. Really appreciated that - thanks. If you are in one of these fights, no matter how right you might be, you are violating the ethics of this site. The only role anyone should have in one of these fights should be peacemaker.

And one other thing. This site does not endorse a particular view at the expense of others. I have my views, but the comments are specifically designed to allow other viewpoints. And I welcome those other viewpoints.

Today, I read some commenters who indicated that they didn't feel their views were welcome. To some extent, I believe people don't sometimes recognize the difference between being unwelcome and simply being in the minority. Just because many people disagree with you on some issue doesn't mean you're unwelcome.

But today, people really were made to feel unwelcome. That is simply intolerable.

The kinds of personal shots people took today, as most of you know, do not belong here under any circumstance. They're completely unnecessary to any discussion of the Dodgers. And as this site is the closest thing to my baby other than my actual babies, you can imagine how much it hurts me to see them from anyone.

Overall, I think the thing that was most disappointing today was to see longtime commenters who should know better exacerbate the sniping and also in some cases, tell people that their views were not welcome here.

The people who feel that they are in the minority on any given issue must feel welcome to express their opinions. I feel that I have gone out of my way to try to make that clear. And I ask that everyone support me on this. This site's only agenda is thoughtful discussion. Supporting a particular Dodger player or executive is not this site's mission.

I'm not going to lie to you. This could go without saying, but I'll say it. There have been some comments on this site that in my personal opinion have been total crap. But there has not been a single commenter - not one - who hasn't had something thoughtful to contribute. There is not one commenter who should be dismissed out of hand.

So all of you who participated in the fight today, I ask you to get off your high horses. Please do it, so I don't have to get on mine and write posts like this. Do it so that we can learn from each other and above all, have fun.

Comments (89)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-07-31 22:29:57
1.   Langhorne

I have lived long enough to have learned these three things:

1) I never will have learned enough.

2) I learn more from people who have a different opinion than those who agree with me.

3) I learn nothing from sarcasm and insults.

2005-07-31 23:09:58
2.   LAT
Well put Jon. I have learned a great deal from the many intelligent posters here, not to mention had a lot of laughs. I would hate to see the level of quality you have established start to deteriorate.
2005-07-31 23:18:41
3.   Uncle Miltie
Related to the game from Bradley:
"No outs, you have runners at first and second and the big bats coming up, it was the right thing to do.

"I don't think I would have hit into a double play. I would have hit it or struck out."

Tell that to Tracy, Milton. In 240 plate appearances this year, Bradley has grounded into 2 double plays.

2005-07-31 23:36:47
4.   bokonon42
"There have been some comments on this site that in my personal opinion have been total crap. But there has not been a single commenter - not one - who hasn't had something thoughtful to contribute." I don't know if you were thinking of me specifically when you said that, but it made my day. I'm not completely thoughtless--I have value! 8^)

I was a jerk yesterday. I'm sorry. Won't happen again.

2005-07-31 23:51:12
5.   capdodger
Better look out boko or Jon will trade you to Athletics Nation for a commenter to be named later and cash considerations. 8-P
2005-07-31 23:56:58
6.   bokonon42
5- What's the DT equivalent of a 10-5 player? I've been here since Spring Training--close enough? I might need a contract extension before I okay'd such a deal.
2005-08-01 00:01:31
7.   Landonkk
I also would like to apologize for a comment that I made today. I made the mistake of trying to speak for more than just myself and it was taken the wrong way. I love the knowledgeable community here and have become comfortable that the majority share my opinions. I felt like the 'community' was threatened today when confronted with what I considered to be illogical statements, and overreacted in my attempt to preserve my sanctuary. I have seen similar forums overrun and turned into nothing more than a nasty 24/7 rant-fest, and I desperately don't want this site to regress to that point.

I apologize to those to whom I spoke, and those whom I spoke for. Just understand that it was a gut reaction. Apparently days like this happen occasionally, but this is the first time I have seen it to this extent here so I wasn't ready for it.

Now, that being said, somebody please fire Jim Tracy.

2005-08-01 00:10:17
8.   Louis in SF
Regarding Uncle Miltie's comment-love the nic-name. I understand the point that the chance of Bradley hitting into a double play were small and giving up the out in that situation would be considered by some not the right move. However, besides Bradley supporting it, the move gave one of the better clutch hitters this year 345 for Sanez with the bases loaded a chance to win the game, additionally it also gave the Dodgers a chance to win the game via a wild pitch, balk or a walk. Even if one thinks the move was a total bonehead play at some point the players play the game and for this at bat Saenz did not deliver.
In my mind there is much to critiscie Tracy for this year but not this decision. The Dodgers are both a flawed and badly injured team and each game they lose illustrates that
2005-08-01 00:38:58
9.   Joe Morgan
8. Milton's bunt was not a horrible call for the reasons you stated. wasting perez was a bad move, though.
2005-08-01 00:53:16
10.   Louis in SF
Indeed wasting your best pinch hitter in a lefty righty thing was bad and obviously hurt later when Tracy had to pinch hit Weaver in the 11th..In reading the trade deadline stories, most indicate that one reason why trades weren't done was the fact that so many teams feel they are still in it. Given this fact wouldn't MLB be better off moving the tradedeadline up to either Aug 15 or the 31 and forgetting about the non-waiver deadline? Love to hear some good rational-I know Sabean said it should be moved last year.
2005-08-01 01:30:11
11.   Mark Linsey
Really, what is the point of a trade deadline in the first place? I suppose we wouldn't want teams on the last day of the season dumping players who would be free agents to playoff teams. Actually, that would actually make things really interesting for those who love trade rumors and following the GM side of things, but it would still probably create too much chaos for those who want to follow a group of players.

How about keeping the rule that anybody you add to your major league roster after Sept 1st can't go on your playoff roster, but besides that anybody can trade whoever they want whenever they want?

I haven't been thinking about this idea for more than a minute so there are probably some valid reasons why it's a bad idea, but I'd be interested in hearing them.

2005-08-01 02:02:08
12.   Mark Linsey
More on the topic of the post, I'd like to apologize for any snideness in my posts, not just yesterday but really throughout the season.

I think that in the whole squabble over "who fired first" - and I agree with Jon that regardless of who did fire first the response should be to make the discussion civil rather than fire back - we (the pro-SABR, pro-DePo, anti-Tracy majority on this site) overlook ways in which our common rhetoric and running jokes can be inflammatory for those who have the opposite opinion.

Words like "heart and soul", "chemistry", and even "clutch" have become derogatory terms to many of the more cynical sabermatricians at this site. Now, I think all of those words are overrated and no way to evaluate talent in running a baseball team. But in an atmosphere of near-constant sarcastic jibes at the "scrappy" school of thought and its followers, it's not hard to see how people on the other side of the fence could come in thinking that they are being personally attacked from the get-go. I think one of the keys in seeing eye-to-eye with the other side is realizing this.

Now, that absolutely doesn't mean I think it should stop. This place would absolutely lose a lot of its character (some of its "heart and soul", so to speak) without the "scrappy" jokes and the snide Plaschke rejoinders and the FJT! chants.

What it does mean is that the anti-Moneyballers are going to have to resist the natural urge to get too acidic even when it seems that everyone else is already against you and already being snide about it, and the pro-Moneyballers are going to have to learn to recognize when someone offers a different perspective, to respond rationally and analytically instead of emotionally (after all, that's what we pride ourselves on , right?), and to tone down or shut off the jokes and sarcastic remarks and, as Jon said, pour water and not fuel on the fire.

Hell, if Google Boy and Logan White can reconcile their differing perspectives and philosophies and move forward in a constructive and civilized manner, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to.

2005-08-01 02:49:22
13.   natepurcell
here is a little piece from the latest plaschke masterpiece:

"He said he talked to more than a dozen teams. He said they offered to throw in money to complete one of the deals. He said he was close on three different things.

"We offered some of our biggest guys," he said. "In the right deal, we talked about just about anybody."

But he seems reluctant to part with members of the Jacksonville Five, the Double-A prospects who include pitchers Chad Billingsley and Edwin Jackson, infielders Joel Guzman and Andy LaRoche and catcher Russell Martin.

If the Dodgers stay close, he may regret that decision."

so is that the consensus nickname for our blue chip prospects? its kind of catchy. what happens when they move up though?

2005-08-01 04:24:40
14.   Bob Timmermann
Since very few deals were made at the trading deadline, a quick check of newspapers throughout the country show that most GMs have received opprobrium for their inactivity.

Interesting that Plaschke refers to Billy Beane as "dreaded" though.

It could be worse. We could be Mets fans. Now there's an unhappy group.

2005-08-01 06:37:56
15.   deburns
It is not surprising that the print media were unhappy about the quiet trade mart. The interest of media qua media is action, controversy, blood (if appropriate). The media abhors inaction or dog bites man stories. So playing into the fan's justifiable frustration about how the team "failed to take the opportunity to improve itself" makes the story almost write itself.
2005-08-01 06:49:48
16.   Bob Timmermann
It is a lot easier to write about something that happened than something that didn't happened.

It's interesting that Plaschke isn't in Acceptance. Because he was on Opening Day. Actually he was in Acceptance a year ago after the Lo Duca trade.

The Mets attempts to deal seem truly media-driven. They are four games out of the wild card and have four teams ahead of them.

But back in the world of the NL West:
1) Can the DBacks hold on to a lead when they are -79 in runs scored?
2) Will the Padres ever get any confidence back?
3) Why did the Giants acquire Randy Winn?
4) How many losses for Colorado?

2005-08-01 06:53:01
17.   dzzrtRatt
Re #7 -- I think I did much the same thing. I generally don't aim sarcasm at any poster in particular, but I let one guy have it a couple of times. There was sort of a Monty Python-like quality (without the humor) to some of the argument that was going on that exasperated me and a few others. I apologize for those of my comments that stepped over the line.

Re: 12 -- I'd add this to your comment: The Dodgers are a losing ballclub, regardless of their pennant chances. Losing sucks. Jon calls this site his "outlet for dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball." Many fans deal with losing by flaying the current regime. DePo has rationalized the current state of the team, and the majority of the posters on this site basically agree with his conclusions: This isn't the team he planned, injuries wrecked that team, but if addressing the injury-created holes means giving up the best of the team's prospects, forget about it and be patient. Nobody finds that satisfying, but to some fans, accepting that rationale amounts to unconscionable toadying to the current regime. The motto of most Dodger fans, not just here but everywhere I go, is "question authority." That's why I love 'em.

Sometimes, like yesteday, that questioning can be aggressively illogical. The culture of this site has usually been: defend your arguments, and do so rationally. But this site is also an "outlet" for Jon and other fans to express their rage, and rage is not supposed to be rational. This site should have room for both great analysis and rage. Best of all is when they come together; when its hit your lips, it's sooo good.

2005-08-01 07:14:36
18.   DXMachina
It could be worse. We could be Mets fans. Now there's an unhappy group.

No kidding. I'm afraid to turn on WFAN at lunch today. It's going to be rant city. I heard they're boiling tar and collecting feathers down at Flushing Meadows.

I'm going to take responsibility for the loss yesterday, because I was the one who didn't turn on Gameday until I went to check the score, and noticed it was 5-5 in the bottom of the ninth. No sooner had the window come up when Olmedo hit into the DP. Then I didn't close the window until Alvarez loaded the bases. It's my fault. Sorry, all.

Jon, I missed yesterday's thread, so I have no idea what was said, but as someone who mostly lurks anyway, I do appreciate this site and its regular posters a lot, even though I tend to be pro-Tracy (although I think he had a real bad day yesterday), and am still not really sold on either DePo or Choi. It's witty, intelligent conversation, even when I don't agree with what's being said.

2005-08-01 07:20:26
19.   Colorado Blue
What happened here yesterday? I'm sorry to hear that quality of inter-action dropped to a level on par with the message boards for some big corporations I happen to peruse or even some of the ones my wife has showed me. We always get a kick out of the vitriol spewed on these B & C class sites. It has made me proud to part of a community with such intelligence and insight... I have learned so much.

Please don't blow it people. Don't make all of Jon's (and yours!) hard work for naught.

And that's all I have to say about that.

DePo: please fire JT asap!

I'm glad Ledee redeemed himself, but why pull Perez to begin with? Maybe JT knew Weaver needed some batting practice and extra innings with the Cardinals was as good a time as any?

2005-08-01 07:38:21
20.   Blue Crew
If they do fire JT, who would you want as the new manager? I'm not saying that I want the guy fired, but am curious who the next manager could be.

What about Jim Leyland or Davey Lopes?


2005-08-01 07:48:36
21.   Colorado Blue
14 - It could be worse. We could be Mets fans. Now there's an unhappy group.

Anything in particular here that I missed, or just unhappy in general?

2005-08-01 07:52:21
22.   Colorado Blue
20 - Good question. It may be why DePo will wait until after the year is over. It will seem more prudent than FingJT now and having an interim. My hope is that DePo is creating a short list right now and will work hard to get a new manager before the winter meetings (assuming he FsJT).
2005-08-01 07:52:22
23.   Eric L

Just look at a Mets thread over at Baseball Think Factory. It'll give you a good idea of the attitude that Mets fans have.

2005-08-01 07:59:59
24.   Vishal
20. orel
2005-08-01 08:00:13
25.   DXMachina
21. They were initially promised Alfonzo Soriano (by the media). Then they were promised Manny Ramirez (again by the media). Now Minaya is being blamed for not getting either deal done, despite the fact that Theo would've been totally off his rocker to trade Manny.
2005-08-01 08:00:32
26.   bojangles

You're swimming against a cultural tide here - and I congratulate you for doing so. Was 'gonna take the hit-and-miss opportunity to post the other day, and after doing the one-day catch-up I allow myself, decided I didn't want to be part of it. I've tried, on more than one occasion, to indicate there's a vast middle-ground in the basic majority-minority conflict here, and that folks who might be identified with a "side" can still offer surprising insight on a particular issue. I've also tried to indicate that the folks who are most thoughtful about the new ways of seeing the game tend to understand better than newer converts the limitations attached to them -
just as the old ways of seeing, now better understood as limited, are not absolutely useless.
I see myself as hybrid (liked Paul's hiring conceptually, now think, though it's not set in concrete yet, he's working the Peter principle hard, as opposed to his mentor up north) - yet occasionally feel unwelcome here; my consistent absences mostly have to do with other priorities, but this weekend was not the first time I've turned away.
Just one more thought: "sarcasm" comes in many shapes and sizes and colors. You've sometimes employed a fairly civilized brand yourself, and so have some of my favorite posters. Don't toss baby with bathwater.
Finally, hope your message has a long-term impact, to match your long-term patience.
As for all you other blue gals and guys, as always, be well.

2005-08-01 08:07:47
27.   Colorado Blue
20, 24 - What about Yeager. Former Dodger catchers seem to make decent managers.
2005-08-01 08:08:41
28.   Blue Crew
You are right. And to think I was talking about how he would be a great manager just last week. I think he would be and do great back in Dodger blue.


2005-08-01 08:13:49
29.   regfairfield
27 - Well, it depends on who you ask.

Piazza might retire after this year, how about him? He'd blast some AC DC in the clubhouse, create a loose atmosphere, which must be a good thing. His game time decisions couldn't be any worse than Tracy's, right? Plus, he really likes the deli right by my workplace. That's a plus.

The sad thing is that I don't know if I'm joking.

2005-08-01 08:30:36
30.   Colorado Blue
29 - Yeah, that Tracy seems to be so out of favor that Piazza looks good now is serious business.

I picture Piazza as an into-the-sunset sort of player not really interested in managing.

I was thinking of Yeager simply because we could usurp Plaschke's Jacksonville 5 with Jacksonville 6.

2005-08-01 08:35:36
31.   fanerman
So the Dusty Baker rumor is nothing right?
2005-08-01 08:42:45
32.   JJoeScott
Thanks for (hopefully) reining in the negativity, Jon.

I thought it curious that Piazza didn't get moved this weekend, although the Mets were undoubtedly preoccupied. He was, reportedly, available for a mid-tier prospect, and yet no takers. Will be interesting to see if he is involved in a waiver deal after the Mets officially fall out of the pennant race.

As for our non-moves, at least it's comforting to know that DePo (love him? hate him?) recognizes how not-very-good we are. The spin, however, in today's Times ... I guess people will believe whatever they want to believe about whether he's being truthful (pursued lots of players, have no financial restraints) or not.

2005-08-01 08:44:28
33.   Joe Morgan
31. the dustster has denied the rumors and is supposedly upset.
2005-08-01 08:46:26
34.   Joe Morgan
20. I wouldn't mind Bobby Valentine.
2005-08-01 08:48:55
35.   Howard Fox
wow...I miss a couple of days and things blow up here just like with the vendors and the guards outside the stadium...

Jon, well said, but I suspect its been building to whatever happened yesterday for a while...I recall people taking personal shots at me and others periodically for quite a while.

Everyone seems to forget, its just a game for us, maybe not for the players and coaches and GMs, but for us, it is just spectator sports...and our livelihoods do not depend on the outcomes.

I've been a die hard Dodger fan since the late 50s. Its been more hard times than good times, but that never stopped me from rooting for the old home team. I have always felt the players and management did the best they could to put a winning product on the field. Sometimes their best may not be good enough, at least for my taste, but at the level they are at, it has to hurt them terribly not to win.

Can we win this year? Sure we can, given the division we are in.

Is the local newspaper skewed against the Dodgers? Sure it is.

Are we playing poorly day in and day out? Of course we are.

So what, I still love baseball and the Dodgers.

I enjoy this site and most of the commenters. In this day of increasing isolation due to the internet and being further and further away from friends geographically, this site is a welcome outlet for the frustrations arising from the play of our boys in blue.

As long as we all remember, its just a game.

2005-08-01 08:54:19
36.   fanerman
Well said, Howard.

I'm sorry Jon.

2005-08-01 08:54:19
37.   JJoeScott
Is the local newspaper skewed against the Dodgers? Sure it is.

I don't think that's the case. They might be healthy skeptics - which, given the evidence presented so far, seems appropriate - but they probably do more than their fair share of Dodgers puff pieces (see Oscar Robles profile) than any other outlet.

2005-08-01 08:58:59
38.   Benaiah
The worst part of Plaschke's piece is:

"Assuming that the National League West winner will still have to play at least .500 baseball, is this a team that can play 11 games over .500 for the rest of the season?

Of course it isn't.

DePodesta said that adding Milton Bradley, Jose Valentin, Dioner Navarro and Jonathan Broxton in the last two weeks is like adding new players.

Of course it's not."

"Of course" it's not like adding new players, you see, when players that were not on the team for several months are now on the team it is nothing like adding new players. When players who have never been on the team, join the team; that is not like adding new players either. What are those players then Billy boy?

2005-08-01 09:00:06
39.   Jeromy
Completely off topic, but I am looking at the fact that there are two months left in the season, and I believe the Dodgers playoff hopes are realistic. I think the NL West will be won by a team at .500 or just over. The Dodgers will have to go 34-23 the rest of the way to get to .500. This isn't promising if we look how they are trending:
April: 15-8; May: 11-17; June 11-17; July 10-17. However, I think the remaining schedule is favorable. If the Dodgers can handle their division by going 6-3 vs. Colorado, 4-3 vs. SF, 4-2 vs. SD, and 4-2 vs. AZ that will get them 18 wins. Most of these games will be in September when Drew is back. I believe they can win 5 of 7 from Pittsburgh, which gets them to 23. This means they will need to get 11 more wins from WA, NY Mets, Phil, Atl, Florida, Hou, and the Cubs. For fun I will give them 4 of 6 vs. WA and the Mets for some early momentum. This means they only have to take about one game from each of the remaining east/midwest teams. The math is there. Anyone with me?
2005-08-01 09:00:17
40.   Howard Fox
37 - fine, and just how good is DePo doing today, according the the Times...while Stoneman is enlightened for not breaking up the winning formula he has on the field (forget that they have given away their entire lead to Oakland)

McCourt buys the Dodgers and the LA area rights for $430mm and he is cheap and miserly....Moreno buys the Angels and Anaheim/Orange County for a fraction of that, lays claim to adjoining territories, he is the big spender, sharing the wealth.

No bias here... No skewed reporting here...

2005-08-01 09:02:20
41.   dzzrtRatt
I don't believe the Times is 'skewed' against the Dodgers. The problem is that the Sports section overall isn't any good. The puff pieces annoy me as much as the slams. I wouldn't mind the Times' zapping the Dodgers on a daily basis if it was done thoughtfully and with some style. The shadow of Jim Murray looms over this entire generation of Times sportswriters, columnists and editors.
2005-08-01 09:03:10
42.   scareduck
Wow, go away for a couple days and there goes the neighborhood.
2005-08-01 09:05:13
43.   Howard Fox
by the way, anyone else see the article in the Ventura County Star yesterday on the Dodger kids in their farm system? Nice piece, a lot of info on Travis Denker...
2005-08-01 09:07:15
44.   fanerman
Is that online? I'd want to read that.

I think you're right. There are plenty of fair criticisms of DePo et al to make without resorting to cheap shots and stereotypes.

2005-08-01 09:11:01
45.   stubbs
Thanks for the post Jon. I wasnt here much yesterday, as it was starting to look ugly and i stayed away. As a member of the somewhat anti-depo crowd it often becomes not worth the fight. The end all is that we all want the Dodgers to win and whether its JD Drew or Cesar Izturis that leads us there, we should all remember that.

Is anyone else sick of Plaschke beginning at least one sentence every article like this:

It says here that....

2005-08-01 09:11:19
46.   db1022
It's the double-edged sword of all the notoriety that DT has received recently. To quote Big E. Smalls - "Mo' money, mo' problems".

On the deadline yesterday, the story was the non-story. No "big" deals going down, however 2 players that were traded that I think could've greatly helped the Dodgers and I'm disappointed that Depo wasn't able to make anything happen.

1. Matt Lawton to the Cubs for Jody Gerut. Jody Gerut? Would this be akin to a Jayson Werth?

2. Farnsworth to the Braves for 2 AAA pitchers (one was 2-7, the other 1-5 w/ a era above 5).

I would've really like to have seen Depo make a move for these two. I'm not really sure what to think with the inactivity. Are we giving up on the season? Are we sure this team is good enough to reel in the two teams ahead of us, not to mention the playoffs?

2005-08-01 09:12:34
47.   Benaiah
44 - It is like Steve said yesterday, it is not that the conclusion is necessarily false, just that the reasoning is. Depodesta has failed miserably in certain respects (cutting washed up players, regulating Tracy, the bullpen in general), but many detractors talk about things which are beyond his control like fastballs on the wrist.
2005-08-01 09:18:54
48.   stubbs
46-I thought the same thing. Jody Gerut is not a prospect, the equivalent of Todd Hollandsworth 4 years after his rookie year. I would have given up something for him just for the sake of whatever jolt making the "biggest" move of the dealine mentally gives the team. I truly think Depo thinks he has Farnsworth for free in Broxton.
2005-08-01 09:22:43
49.   regfairfield
Gerut has shown a lot of potential for power (22 Home Runs in 400 AB his rookie year), that somehow detioratted last year. He's certainly worth taking a flier on for a team looking to rebuild.
2005-08-01 09:25:48
50.   db1022
48 - Sure, Broxton could be Farnsworth (not that that's a major accomplishment or anything) as early as next year. I think its a reach to put a 21-year old kid into a pennant race, and expect him to be the #1 guy out of the bullpen (setting up Yhency).

I would've liked to see some veteran help come in (veterans that can pitch - unlike the AARP crew we run out there every game). Guardado and Farnsworth were my top two choices. Obviously the M's didn't part with Eddie, so he wasn't an option. I think that we could've easily trumped Atl's package though.

Same with Lawton. He would've given us a legit OFer and leadoff hitter. Drew sounds like he's done for the year - something about the wrist not healing exactly right, which would've been necessary for him to think about coming back this year. Now we're going with Repko/Ledee, Werth, and Bradley.

These two would've cost about $3.5M this year, then become FA's.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-08-01 09:32:43
51.   Steve
I read where Ed Wade "offered" Vicente Padilla, Kenny Lofton, and Ugueth Urbina, for A.J. Burnett and Juan Pierre, and then we're all shocked that nothing got done yesterday. Couldn't he have thrown in David Bell too?
2005-08-01 09:33:17
52.   Joe Morgan
46. It seems that Lawton could've been had, but I'm not so sure that is really that great of an upgrade. Yes, the OBP is there, but he's basically a platoon guy. We needed him a month ago, but with Ledee and Valentin back I don't see him as an upgrade that puts us over the top. Once you factor in his defense it might not be an upgrade at all.

I'd rather see what Broxton can do than get Farnsworth, altho he is having a nice season.

2005-08-01 09:37:30
53.   fanerman
I now offer my daily grumbling that Jim Tracy should play Hee Seop Choi regularly...
2005-08-01 09:37:51
54.   Steve
Rafael Palmeiro just drew a steroids suspension.
2005-08-01 09:38:48
55.   fanerman
2005-08-01 09:40:20
56.   Joe Morgan
50 - Lawton is a terrible defensive outfielder (I think he's -10 runs according to UZR) and we already have two guys that lead off. If you throw lawton in the lead off spot then where are you gonna bat izzy and robles?

where did you hear about drew's wrist?

2005-08-01 09:40:21
57.   db1022
52 - I just have zero faith in this bullpen right now. Carrara and Alvarez are worthless. Dessens barely gets a chance. Sanchez is ok, but needs to be a 6th or 7th inning guy, not the 8th inning. Broxton, Schmoll, and Brazoban are awfully young to be the primary weapons out of the bullpen.
2005-08-01 09:41:57
58.   Joe Morgan
54 - what are the legal implications of lying to congress?
2005-08-01 09:43:13
59.   db1022
From Yahoo Sports, apparently citing though I haven't seen the original article:

"Jul 27's Mark Thoma reports Los Angeles Dodgers OF J.D. Drew (wrist) is slow to heal from his broken wrist. Doctors said there's a 60 percent chance the wrist will not heal correctly and ligaments would be at risk of coming detached from the bone. "It doesn't feel good," Drew said. "Slow progress now, mobility and trying to get your strength back." "

2005-08-01 09:44:20
60.   db1022
54 - WOW! This is what everyone has been waiting for. This could me the most important story this year - if not the last 10 years.
2005-08-01 09:46:01
61.   db1022
56 - Between Robles and Izturis, pick one to play SS and bat them 8th.


2005-08-01 09:46:23
62.   Mark

10 games at least.

2005-08-01 09:47:09
63.   Jon Weisman
New post above.
2005-08-01 09:48:34
64.   JJoeScott
#39 - Jeromy, I'm with you. It wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, either. But our bullpen stinks, three of our top starters (Lowe, Perez, Weaver) are suspect, a third one (Houlton) should be in AAA, our best hitter (Drew) is likely out for the season, and our third baseman is Oscar Robles and our left fielder is Jose Valentin. It's hard to get up off the couch for that.

I'd feel a lot better if we just brought some kids up and let them bat around Kent, Bradley and Izzy. A whole lot better.

2005-08-01 09:48:36
65.   Steve
58 -- They are bad. :)
2005-08-01 09:49:20
66.   kent
Jon, I understand that you are a Stanford Cardinal (or perhaps you're old enough to have been an Indian) but something tells me we would get along quite well just the same. Thanks for the great website and the refreshing code of conduct. (Cal '76.)
2005-08-01 09:52:11
67.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 59

Actually, as I remember the original story on Drew's wrist that quoted the 60% figure, I think the meaning was that there was a 60% chance Drew wouldn't even make it to the stage where he is now--beginning rehab. The wording was a bit murky, though.

Well, I guess Raffy's a pretty good actor. His denial before Congress was supposed to be quite a performance, although I don't actually remember it right now.

I personally think this will sink his HoF chances.


2005-08-01 09:54:04
68.   fanerman
I'm inclined to agree about the HoF. His performance has been pretty underrated by many (never had a "dominant" season. blah blah blah) to the point where he may have been a borderline HoF. Now... who knows.
2005-08-01 09:55:28
69.   Joe Morgan
59 - did not realize that the prognosis on Drew's wrist was that bad. I was hoping that he'give us a boost in september.
2005-08-01 09:55:33
70.   db1022
68 - He gets 3000 hits (check!) and 600 homers (almost check!) it'd be pretty hard to keep him out. McGwire is up pretty soon - he could be the litmus test.
2005-08-01 09:56:20
71.   Jon Weisman
Will Carroll had a more optimistic assessment of Drew today at BP.

Everyone, thanks for your positive response to this post. I appreciate it.

2005-08-01 09:56:44
72.   db1022
69 - From what I've been able to gather, he'd need a perfect recovery to make it back by Sept.

It doesn't appear that is happening, so we'll see what that means...

2005-08-01 10:00:00
73.   db1022
71 - What does Will Carroll say about Drew, for us deadbeat non-subscribers?
2005-08-01 10:01:15
74.   Joe Morgan
presumably Palmeiro tested positive after the hearing which makes him come across as even stupider than Canseco.

You can kiss his HOF induction goodbye. He will go down in infamy as the first big name guy to get busted...

2005-08-01 10:01:56
75.   fanerman
#73, 71

BP is free right now (trial period to all).

The key to the NL West lies in one man's wrist. J.D. Drew is a significant enough hitter that even without seeing Tom Gorman's calculations, I'm confident that a month, perhaps a bit more, of Drew in the Dodger lineup will tip the balance of the pro-mediocrity division. Drew believes there's a chance that he'll be back at the end of August, something that meshes well with what we know of similar injuries. He's been just slightly ahead of the normal rehab schedule; soon, we should be looking for reports that Drew is hitting off a tee. The Dodgers will swap out players from the DL. Jose Valentin is back from the DL after a couple months' rehab on his injured knee while Jayson Werth is headed onto the DL with knee problems of his own. Werth has lost range of motion in the knee and will have further tests to determine the extent of the damage.

2005-08-01 10:04:06
76.   Steve
70 -- The Hall of Fame is very politically connected. The baseball writers (or at least enough of them to matter) are already pre-disposed to keep him out. I don't know whether there is federal money involved in Cooperstown, but I think if Congress says boo, the Hall will respond favorably to that.

I think it would be hard to prove a perjury case against Palmeiro for two reasons 1) the broad use of the word "steroid" leaves open the question of what substances Palmeiro included in his statement -- if he subjectively didn't think he was lying (didn't lie with intent to lie), then it's not perjury and 2) just because he used it now doesn't mean, in a legal sense, that he used if before he appeared in Congress. I mean, on a common sense meter that's nonsense, but there would have to be some proof that Palmeiro lied that comes from a non self-incriminatory source.

2005-08-01 10:12:26
77.   Steve
It would also not be perjury if Palmeiro didn't know he was lying -- which is the tack that Palmeiro appears to be taking -- the Bondsian I didn't know what it was tack.
2005-08-01 10:15:55
78.   Joe Morgan
77 - yeah, except canseco fingered him in his book.

maybe he was set up, tho. Maybe he was getting a massage and some jealous team mate walked by and jabbed a needle into his butt.

2005-08-01 10:24:59
79.   dzzrtRatt
My bet is Drew will play again this year, and Werth will not.

People have wondered why Palmeiro has never gotten the attention given to Bonds or Griffey despite his big numbers. Finally, he got a little love from the media as he hit the milestones. And now this. He could be prosecuted on a federal perjury count, and I'm sure there's an ambitious young prosecutor who'd love to try. My guess is they'll ultimately decline to do that.

Instead, when Palmeiro retires, Tommy Lee Jones will trigger that flashy thing from "Men in Black," and no one will remember a thing about him.

2005-08-01 10:25:00
80.   rageon
76, 77 - Did the hearing take place in a common law jurisdiction? If so, he should totally argue voluntary intoxication.

I'd be surprised if they actually went after him for perjury, but I would not at all be surprised if Congress uses this the next time they decide to tell baseball to tighten up its policy. While you could argue that catching a player of his caliber is proof that the system is working, the question remains: If he's been using since the Canseco days, how did it take this long to catch him? Weren't the players already tested at the beginning of the season?

Also, anyone remember, was Raffy ever connected to the Balco thing? I don't remember ever seeing him implicated with any of those athletes.

2005-08-01 10:26:19
81.   Howard Fox
the implications of Palmiero lying to Congress are that he can now retire from baseball and command greater fees on the speaker's tour
2005-08-01 10:38:27
82.   JJoeScott
I'm still waiting for Palmeiro to file that libel suit against Canseco. Wilson Alvarez, too.
2005-08-01 10:55:18
83.   scareduck
50: how soon they forget:

2005-08-01 11:01:42
84.   Bob Timmermann
Re the Mets fans at Baseball Primer

One of them referred to my deceased father with an obscenity and told me that he was better off dead.

They're a real fun bunch.

We've got long way to go to sink to that level.

2005-08-01 11:16:09
85.   Colorado Blue
82 - No cuts! You'll have to get behind OJ finding the real killer first...

RE JD Drew: Even in a best case scenario where he returns in early September, we also have to hope that he will have no rust. He started the season off mighty poorly... does he have a track record of starting slow? I don't know, but if he does then he may begin Sept. slow anyway.

I'm staying in ACCEPTANCE... for today!

2005-08-01 11:18:30
86.   db1022
Farnsworth has the Armando Benitez thing going for him - very good numbers get trumped by a few key blowups.

I'll take my chances on his sub-2.50 ERA and his 11.7 K/9 innings.

2005-08-01 11:31:46
87.   Colorado Blue

When asked if he (JT) was disappointed that the Dodgers did not make an impact trade, he said it wasn't his concern.

"I don't have any control over that," Tracy said. "My job is to deal with the people currently in the clubhouse. I've never wavered from that. I don't attempt to do other peoples' jobs. I've got plenty to keep me busy here."

Is JT's non-answer an admission of huge disappointment? Note to JT: DePo just didn't want to give you more guys who have arm angle issues and thus must be benched.

2005-08-01 12:05:03
88.   mcrawford
I'm glad the trade deadline has passed because now we should have less of the "The Dodgers should trade Jason Grabowski for Adam Dunn," "No they shouldn't," talk here at DT. Which I never find that enjoyable.
2005-08-01 16:46:49
89.   bill cox
#27-I had the pleasure of speaking with Yeager at a Suns game earlier this summer.I don't know how he'd be as a strategist,but he's a throwback baseball guy.Compared to Tracy's Mr.Rogers personna Yeager is a crusty New Yawker who questions every call,smokes a heater outside the locker room door.He'd probably be the most colorful Dodger manager since Durocher.

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