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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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5) discussing politics
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Jawin' Milton and Manual Kent
2005-08-24 08:33
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Tonight's Game

* * *

What can I say? I think T.J. Simers has Kent v. Bradley covered. The best part about Simers' story is, he just lays out what he understands and doesn't try to draw conclusions about what he doesn't.

For those of you who are sure that either Milton Bradley or Jeff Kent will be gone by next season, remember that people said the same thing about Bradley last year and Odalis Perez, oh, every six months or so.

* * *

Luke Hochevar? I don't know. Seems like a $2.5 million signing bonus should be enough for the Dodgers' top draft pick. Even if his value were to go up during his senior year of school, Hochevar doesn't figure to make all that money back. Since he's reportedly requesting $4 million now, his next team would basically have to pay him a bonus of at least $6.5 million to make the holdout financially prudent. That's 160 percent more than the Dodgers' current offer, when Hochevar will have less leverage.

If the Dodgers and Hochevar both want to see him in the team's system now, it would be silly for a contract not to be signed. But senior year can be a priceless experience - just ask me or Matt Leinart. So I won't criticize Hochevar if he stays in school.

Update: Tennessee coach Rod Delmonico believes Hochevar is returning to school, according to the Knoxville News-Sentinel:

The 21-year-old from Fowler, Colo., enrolled for fall-semester classes at UT, but didn't attend his first-day classes on Wednesday. The Dodgers would lose their rights to Hochevar once he attends a class.

"He's got until next Friday to get in school and be OK," Delmonico said. "He is eligible. If he starts school, it's over (with the Dodgers) and he's back for his senior year. That's all I know."

Update 2: That $6.5 million figure mentioned above isn't right.

Comments (599)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-08-24 09:05:33
1.   Penarol1916
I refuse to register for the LA Times. What's the gist of the Hochevar blurb?
2005-08-24 09:07:10
2.   rageon
Just a few days ago, I probably would have told you I was a pretty big fan of Milton Bradley. But his comments have really started to annoy me. I don't buy the "baseball holds African-Americans down" thing at all. Apparently baseball must be anti-blacks, but yet not have a problem with all the latin or Asian players. Get over it Milton. Here's a suggestion, maybe you are the problem, not the "white media."
2005-08-24 09:08:06
3.   Humma Kavula
1 - Dodgers have offered $2.5 mil, Boras/Hochevar want $4 mil. White's not optimistic that a deal will be done.

Classes start today. If Hochevar goes to class, the Dodgers lose rights.

2005-08-24 09:08:22
4.   rageon
1 Classes started, but they think he will wait a few days before deciding to attend. It mentions that Logan White isn't overly optimistic it will get done.
2005-08-24 09:17:25
5.   Kayaker7
Does race matter? Of course it does. In all walks of life, organizations tend to promote those who are like them. Everywhere, not just in baseball. It just so happens that whites hold most positions of power. If blacks or Asian held positions of power, the white would probably notice subtle examples of racisim. So, I don't think Milton's commments really shed any new light.

I do think that Kent's style does not lend itself to being that of a leader, at least not in his first year with a team. If he had been here a couple of years, then he may have more pull. It takes a while to warm up to him. I still kinda don't like him, from his Giants days. :-)

2005-08-24 09:18:32
6.   Jon Weisman
2 - From what I understand, baseball invests much more in developing Latin players than it has in African-American players.

Simers "asked if he was trying to suggest the Dodgers were trying to keep the number of African American players in check, but he said no."

2005-08-24 09:24:11
7.   Icaros
To bring up the topic of the "lesser" dugout dispute between Brad Penny and Tim Wallach, does anyone else think it's at least slightly ridiculous for a coach to be openly telling the media that he wanted a player on the other team hit?

Seems like the type of thing that should be kept quiet to me.

2005-08-24 09:25:47
8.   kegtron
Milt would love playing in Detroit, they have the Soul Patrol II in the outfield.

Minny had SP III before Torriiii Hunter went down.

2005-08-24 09:26:34
9.   rageon
6 Bradley, while mentioning race numerous times, said that is wasn't trying to inject race into the argument. So which is it? But the fact is, Bradley was the one that brought it up, not me, not the media, not Kent.

As far as the money spend on developing players, I would assume that the difference is accounted for by all the academies set up in Latin countries to scout those players. Teams don't really need to go to another country to scout African-American players. I generally think that teams today are interesting in making money first and foremost, with winning second and all other potential motives and goals far behind. I think that teams will go where they think they can find players. Ten years from now when every team has an academy set up in India, I can't imagine anyone wondering why teams are spending more on scouting those players than Latin players. It's just the business.

2005-08-24 09:30:01
10.   still bevens
Couldnt you also chock up some of these skewed representation numbers to the fact that colleges dont spend as much on baseball scholarships as they do basketball and football? Couldnt you also argue that interest in baseball pales in comparison to those sports within the african american community? I could be way off base here (to borrow a pun) but you dont hear much about people trying to 'make it' by being the baddest short stop you ever saw..
2005-08-24 09:30:19
11.   Jon Weisman
7 - I don't think Wallach is actually quoted about the incident in the paper, is he? But I basically agree with you.
2005-08-24 09:34:30
12.   Jon Weisman
9 - "Bradley, while mentioning race numerous times, said that is wasn't trying to inject race into the argument. So which is it? But the fact is, Bradley was the one that brought it up, not me, not the media, not Kent."

I assume that Bradley thinks that because Kent has the racial insensitivity, Kent initiated it. But whatever. I agree that Bradley can make some contradictory statements.

2005-08-24 09:35:10
13.   Monterey Chris
11-

It only says that Wallach acknowledged that he did not know that Penny had talked with Kent at the time that he confronted Penny.

2005-08-24 09:42:23
14.   Bob Timmermann
I think more importantly, Milton Bradley played the Jeff Foxworthy card.
2005-08-24 09:43:53
15.   gcrl
8
sadly, lew ford has no soul

soul patrol I was jones/hunter/lawton, correct?

2005-08-24 09:46:08
16.   Penarol1916
3.4.- Thanks, so there was absolutely no new infomration in that story, except that the Dodgers aren't going above $2.5MM. Given that he was asking for more $5.0MM going into the draft, I'm surprised the Dodgers would have drafted him knowing that they wouldn't offer more than half of his original asking price.
2005-08-24 09:47:43
17.   Jon Weisman
16 - It could just have been a flyer - go after someone big knowing they had draft picks to get the next level of talent. It could also be that they felt good about their leverage, based on what I wrote up top.
2005-08-24 09:47:56
18.   Bob Timmermann
15
And Shannon Stewart hurt himself last night, so there will be less soul in Minneapolis.
2005-08-24 09:48:24
19.   Icaros
11, 13 - Maybe there's no direct quote, but it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see what he was mad about.

I don't know, I guess I'm just tired of reading about these grown men arguing like children and would be more interested in hearing the hitting coach discuss some issues related to hitting, like why his leadoff hitter refuses to see more than three pitches per at bat.

2005-08-24 09:50:37
20.   Kayaker7
20 If I were a professional athlete, I would never speak to the media. When I was in my 20's I was too emotional and impulsive to make any sense. I would have embarrassed myself all the time.
2005-08-24 09:52:19
21.   Bob Timmermann
I've interviewed high school athletes and they all seem to speak in cliches already. They aren't all that outspoken.

Guys like Bradley are an exception.

2005-08-24 09:53:14
22.   Jon Weisman
19 - Again, I agree with you except for the fact that there's no evidence Wallach wanted to talk about it with the media. Sounds like the story came out and he was confronted with it - his public dealings with the situation are pretty quiet.

But yeah, getting mad at a pitcher who doesn't want to hit a batter intentionally? I'm not behind that.

2005-08-24 09:57:07
23.   Monterey Chris
19--

I am not surprised that the hitting coach wants his hitters protected...I'm just surprised that it is in the papers. It sounded to me like a fair exchange that got settled rather quickly.

My impression of Wallach is not that he is sitting around talking about what players our pitchers should hit that day. My guess is that he is working on hitting issues with every hitter on our team. Good coaches have a player focused on one area at a time...most people (even professional athletes) cannot make multiple adjustments at once. I have no doubt he is working with Izturis on his hitting although since he likely has multiple issues to work on, pitch selection may or may not be Wallach's first choice.

2005-08-24 09:57:54
24.   Icaros
22 - Point taken. I'm not even totally against hitting a batter intentionally, depending on the circumstances.

But whatever happened to players and coaches just saying, "No comment"?

Maybe that went out of style the same year that umpires started yelling back at players and coaches instead of turning their backs.

2005-08-24 09:58:46
25.   Monterey Chris
22--

It didn't sound to me like Penny did not want to hit a player intentionally. Instead, he left it up to Kent and Kent told him not to do it. If Kent said to do it, he would have been willing to do it.

2005-08-24 10:00:29
26.   GoBears
20: Well, as annoying and instrusive as the media can be, players (and coaches) have to be reminded now and again that they're in the entertainment business. Without the media, all sports leagues would close up shop pretty quickly, to say nothing of supporting multimillionaires in the manner to which they've become accustomed. And, for better or worse, sports fans want more than box scores. The athletes need the media more than the media need the athletes (they can move on to other sources of entertainment). So shunning the scribes and cameras really shouldn't be an option.

The NFL has a better handle on things, but then, they've broken the back of their players' union too.

2005-08-24 10:04:08
27.   Icaros
There's an interesting article over at the newly-resurrected Fourth Outfielder by Paul Scott which examines the declining walk rates of Bradley, Izturis, and Choi under Wallach's tenure.

It's an interesting read.

http://tinyurl.com/e2vfc

2005-08-24 10:06:46
28.   Terry A
Speaking as a Southern white male, I can attest to the unfortunate fact that racism simmers just under the surface of our culture.

I can't tell you how many otherwise wonderful people have made absolutely jaw-dropping statements to me -- in jest or in ignorance -- about people of color. It's sick and it's sad, and while I want to hope Milton Bradley is dead wrong, I'm left to wonder if maybe we ought to listen to him a bit more than we are.

And yes, I apologize for stereotyping Kent based on his choice of offseason locale. Obviously (and hopefully), not all SWM (Southern white males) are racist rednecks. Brad Penny certainly seems to rise above such nonsense.

2005-08-24 10:14:06
29.   Bob Timmermann
I think Penny didn't want to hit a batter also because he was letting enough of them get on base on his own in that start in Florida.
2005-08-24 10:20:23
30.   Nagman
29 but with the sweltering heat, he could've saved himself a few pitches.

It seems Bradley is taking on a role that is bigger than "leader of the Dodgers", thats the only way I can justify him taking these statements to the media... or else he appears to be a somewhat insecure individual who is trying to get everybody on his side in this matter.

2005-08-24 10:25:26
31.   GoBears
28: Kent is a cipher. Born and raised in Southern California. College in Berkeley. Yet you'd never guess any of that from his public persona. I have a colleague like that. A brilliant, eastern-educated philosopher, from the SF Valley, who thinks he's a Texan, cuz he lived there for 5 or 10 years. Weird.

Racism is real, as are false (and malicious) accusations of racism. And in the politically correct age that we live in, to be accused is tantamout to being convicted - you're guilty until proved innocent - so it's a dangerous weapon to wield. But maybe I'm over-sensitized to these things, seeing as how I've been in university settings for the last 20 years. PC run amok, and it's too bad, because it becomes cliche and gets in the way of real progress sometimes.

But to me, the gist of Bradley's objection to Kent's "leadership" has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with Kent talking the leadership talk, but not ACTING like a leader. I'll be surprised if Bradley doesn't retract the "racist" part of the accusation, at least for public consumption. And I'll be surprised if either guy is off the team next year.

2005-08-24 10:28:29
32.   Kayaker7
27 Nice article. Pretty much sums up my suspicions. In spite of what Wallach says in public, his coaching has made some batter much less patient.
2005-08-24 10:39:36
33.   Rob M
28 I also want to listen closely to Bradley on this. As far as I can tell, he's very popular with his teammates, he's shown a willingness to play hurt, and he's made real efforts to control the anger problems that plagued him previously. From his comments, I get the feeling that Kent has made numerous remarks over time that Bradley didn't appreciate. Considering that Kent, from all reports, keeps to himself and doesn't interact much with his teammates, I'd get tired of brushing aside a lot of pointed "jokes" from a guy like that, too. Maybe Bradley would have been wise not to bring all this to the media's attention, but I can understand it - especially if it all comes to a head with Kent challenging Bradley's leadership in front of his teammates (or at least Bradley interpreting it that way.)
2005-08-24 10:43:44
34.   Rob M
Also, Bradley's comments aren't all that muddled. He makes the point that "we all joke about race here" - that joking about race is OK among friends, in a certain tone. It's not so OK coming from a cold, distant jerk that rarely has anything good to say to you to balance out his "jokes." That's certainly my experiece of the world.
2005-08-24 10:44:47
35.   dzzrtRatt
As much as I generally dislike and disrespect the LA Times (and especially T.J. Simers), my hat is off to the Times today for its exemplary coverage of the Kent/Bradley dispute. They avoided being either incendiary or politically correct, accurately (unlike some of the wires and web portals) characterized Bradley's remarks, and overall treated the story as one about two difficult individuals, rather than black v. white.

These are a couple of weird guys. Bradley has a persecution complex, and Kent was pegged accurately by GoBears in 31 above. It's kind of unfortunate, but not untypical for people touched by a kind of genius to be impolite and self-centered. If we accept that Ernest Hemingway and Ezra Pound (to pick two of thousands of possible examples) could sometimes say or do things that were completely unacceptable and yet teach their works in every major university, we can accept that a couple of our ballplayers have twisted views of the world.

2005-08-24 10:47:30
36.   Yakface
34-But then again maybe Kent was trying to break the ice and be one of the guys by making a joke (race related or not) and now Bradley blew it out of proportion Kent is likely to slide back into his outcast role.
2005-08-24 10:56:17
37.   D4P
PENAROL!!!!

Is that you? I thought you were dead. Come back, I miss you.

2005-08-24 10:59:20
38.   Colorado Blue
6 - From what I understand, baseball invests much more in developing Latin players than it has in African-American players.

What does this mean exactly? If the understanding was that baseball invests much more in developing white players than it has in African-American players, then I think there would be an issue.

Because the NBA is predominantly black, does that mean that the NBA invests more in black players vs. white? No, I don't think so. I think in America itself the issue is cultural-geographical. My guess is that many more white kids play organized baseball growing up and inversely more black kids play organized basketball. I don't think it is an investment issue related to race at all.

2005-08-24 11:01:04
39.   molokai
MB may have legitimate concerns with Kent. Those concerns should be addressed man to man and if they are unable to reach an understanding then let management intervene. Using the media is BS and counterproductive. I've lost a lot of respect for the way MB is using the media in this situation.

Luke Hochevar is making a big mistake. He's a pitcher not a position player. The colleges are littered with pitchers who blew their arm out. The only way this works for him financially is to become the number one pick. To do that he is going to have to have one hell of season. I don't really care if we sign him or not. It would have been a nice bonus to have picked up such a talent with our late pick but I'm not going to castigate the Dodgers for not giving a pitcher the huge bonus they are looking for. I'd increase the bonus myself but I wouldnt' increase it to 4 million. I'd give a little and hope they give a little. If not, then take your chances and the odds aren't in his favor that he will come out better financially by playing his senior card. I'm always bemused by baseball holdouts over a million dollars. The faster they get to the big leagues the faster that million becomes 10 million per year. 2 1/2 million is enough protection if you blow your arm out. The rest is just ego.

2005-08-24 11:03:48
40.   JSN
Well I finally finished my move to Charlotte and have just had some time to catch up on what the boys in blue have been up to.

I totally agree with Rob's comment, 33.

I also think that Simers' piece was his best, and I generally don't like him.

As for the Hochevar situation, I've always tried to see Boras as a businessman and ignore the criticisms of him as frustrations from those that he beats. However, more and more often I see stories of players who re-enter the draft and make like 50,000 more, less the salary they would have made the previous year. I'm starting to believe that Boras plays hardball with rookies, at their expense, to maintain his reputation when it comes to his FA negotiations. It's really a shame for some of these kids, especially those that don't become superstars. There is some interesting insight about Boras and baseball agents in general in "License to Deal" by Jerry Crasnick.

2005-08-24 11:03:52
41.   Jon Weisman
38 - All I was trying to say is that baseball apparenly has major development operations in Latin American countries that it does not seem to have in African-American communities. My sense is that this is because those foreign players are not subject to the draft and therefore the investment can be recouped more directly.

The result of this being that baseball isn't racist per se, but that baseball practices can lead to a declining percentage of African-American players. It's not intentionally related to race, but it conceivably relates to race.

2005-08-24 11:04:26
42.   Suffering Bruin
My stepdaddy has invited me to tonight's game. The seats will be fifteen rows behind home plate, field level. It'd be nice if I could report that my stepdaddy is rich but actually, the seats belong to my stepdaddy's rich friend. But a guy can dream...

I plan on cheering loudly when Bradley comes to the plate if he plays. I plan on doing the same thing for Kent. Outside of the Korean Crusher, they are my two favorite players on the 2005 Dodgers.

2005-08-24 11:07:52
43.   Bob Timmermann
I think we should all give thanks that Bill Plaschke is on a long vacation now because I would really hate to read what he thinks about the situation.
2005-08-24 11:09:52
44.   Peanuts in My Shoes
42 I was actually a few rows up behind homeplate last night. Amazing, with such service. I'm the baldie in the grey shirt (later navy sweatjacket) cheering wildly for Choi, Weaver, Navarro if you catch the highlights.
2005-08-24 11:10:53
45.   Peanuts in My Shoes
Hmmm, my links aren't working. Underscore, number, underscore?
2005-08-24 11:12:25
46.   Bob Timmermann
[X]
2005-08-24 11:13:48
47.   Linkmeister
I may have said this before, but baseball's decline in popularity among African-American kids may have something to do with needing 17 like-minded others to get up a game. The cost of equipment keeps rising; the days of the $10 glove are long gone. Open lots that could be turned into diamonds are few and far between in the suburbs or cities, too.

Basketball can be 3-on-3 with a concrete court and metal nets; it's just easier to find places and equipment to play with. And never underestimate Michael Jordan's star power, or that of Iverson and the rest of the NBA.

2005-08-24 11:16:39
48.   Kayaker7
42 Korean Crusher, lol, I like that. I think it is better than Chopper. How about Korean Krusher?
2005-08-24 11:17:27
49.   Telemachos
As I mentioned when the hoopla first broke, Kent and Bradley are two of my favorite Dodgers, so this is a frustrating situation all round.

I absolutely agree that it should have been handled behind closed doors -- Bradley, IMHO did the right thing when he went to Tracy, and the wrong thing by talking to the media afterwards.

I don't know what Kent said (or said multiple times)... but as he pointed out, he's played for and been mentored by several high-profile African-Americans, so it's hard to think that it's specifically a racism thing -- though it may be an insensitivity thing.

But unless the comments he said were so insulting and racist, I don't see what anyone gains by taking it public.

2005-08-24 11:19:31
50.   Jim Hitchcock
42 SB, If we see you talking on a cell phone, we're coming to get you...
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-08-24 11:21:43
51.   Bob Timmermann
I've asked this before I think:

How many African-Americans are there in the majors now who grew up in cities?

Bradley
Willis
Sheffield
Sabathia (he was born in Vallejo, so I don't know if he qualifies)
Patterson

There are players like Griffey and Bonds who had much different upbringings. Edwin Jackson was a military kid I believe. So was Dmitri Young.

Juan Pierre and Chone Figgins grew up in the South. Jeter grew up in a middle class family.

2005-08-24 11:22:16
52.   Colorado Blue
41 - My sense is that this is because those foreign players are not subject to the draft and therefore the investment can be recouped more directly.

Agree completely.

The result of this being that baseball isn't racist per se, but that baseball practices can lead to a declining percentage of African-American players. It's not intentionally related to race, but it conceivably relates to race.

And what I was trying to convey in 38 is that you could substitute "African-American" with "white" above and it would be just as true.

2005-08-24 11:23:50
53.   Suffering Bruin
And let me add this...

I'm a lot like Bradley: I thrive on group work, I care what others think of me, I want everyone on the team to be included and I don't want anyone to be left out or me to be left out. That's a syllable-for-syllabe description of me in the recently concluded LAUSD District Intern Orientation Program. I was open to suggestions from everyone because my own confidence as an educator was just beginning to blossom. This prompted some to call me a "leader" because I was high-energy guy who was the life of the group.

In the program, I worked with another guy who was a lot like Kent: an intense, experienced educator. He cared deeply about the profession, knew what he was doing and didn't mind letting people know as much. He was a little removed from the rest of us but far from unfriendly. He just tended to keep to himself unless he was called upon to work with a group (which he would do quite well). He did not like being told what to do or how to do things; he'd done it all before. This prompted some to call him a "veteran leader" because he'd seen more than the rest of us (13-year old Devin Brown was in his classroom; he told me movingly how he had to deal with that but he did not share it with the group in spite of my suggestion he do so).

I'm white. The other guy I just described is black. We clashed a couple of times. Most people who dealt with him said I had plenty of company. We became good friends but we didn't have to co-exist in a highly competitive environment where many people watch and judge your every move. If we did, I think we'd be both be in the headlines. I'm glad to say we are not because I value his friendship. I don't doubt that such a friendship would not have been possible had we both been primary players for a major sports team.

2005-08-24 11:26:21
54.   Suffering Bruin
50 You just worry about diving for those foul balls! :)
2005-08-24 11:26:24
55.   Kayaker7
53 Nice post.
2005-08-24 11:27:24
56.   DougS
Jon, I think the key comparison here is, how much is MLB spending per player on developing white ballplayers vs. developing black ballplayers? That's where race could conceivably become an issue. I'm sure the Latin academies are a major expense, but perceived as necessary because you're setting up shop in a foreign country, where they speak a different language and you're far away from the home office.

If you want to ask why not set up academies in African-American communities, well, that may be a constructive notion. But perhaps MLB looks at black American and white American prospects as being essentially alike, and that there is no need to treat them differently.

2005-08-24 11:27:36
57.   the OZ
40 - LtD (not Livan the Destroyer, but License to Deal) does provide a little insight into the agent biz, but that's all; just a little bit. I admit that I was disappointed by the book. I'd be interested to discuss the book with anyone who's read it.
2005-08-24 11:31:15
58.   Suffering Bruin
55 Thanks!

43 I'd give it a shot but I'm still recovering from the last time I tried to write like Plaschke. Every time I type more than one sentence in a paragraph, my fingers twitch.

2005-08-24 11:41:56
59.   Jon Weisman
56 - Perhaps. And I do get nervous using racial categories when socio-economic categories are more appropriate. So in that vein, would it make sense for baseball to spend the same amount of development money in richer communities as in poorer communities? Doubtful.
2005-08-24 11:43:06
60.   Jon Weisman
53 - that was a nice post, SB
2005-08-24 11:48:07
61.   Suffering Bruin
60 Well, it's been four months since my bio of Footsie Belardi so one could say I was due. And thanks...
2005-08-24 11:48:32
62.   Penarol1916
37.
It is me, but no, I'm not coming back.
2005-08-24 11:49:59
63.   GoBears
MLB has been concerned for a while (probably since the Campanis incident) about inner-city baseball. That's what that RBI (Reviving Baseball in the Inner city) initiative is all about. And I note that Bradley doesn't just whine - he's been personally involved in a couple such projects since he came to LA. But for all the reasons mentioned, it's a losing battle. Basketball is more popular and cheaper in terms of space and equipment. Also requires fewer players, and frankly, is easier for novices to enjoy. Beer softball leagues, while quite fun, don't do much to prepare one for competitive baseball. Basketball can even be practiced alone, and skills improved. Not so with baseball, at least not without expensive equipment. The African-American community is also a shrinking part of the US population, having already been surpassed by the Latino population. And of course, once you add the huge number of players from Latin America itself, and now Asia, African-Americans are bound to comprise a smaller share of MLB players. As are Euro-Americans, for that matter.

None of which speaks to the question as to whether Jeff Kent is racist or insensitive, or whatever. But it does point to numerous reasons to question the conclusion that racism is a general phenomenon in MLB and at the root of the representation question.

2005-08-24 12:03:58
64.   D4P
What made you leave? Have you always posted on this board too, or did you recently substitute this one for the other one? And why aren't you coming back?

I thought I meant something to you...:)

(But seriously, what gives?)

2005-08-24 12:09:12
65.   Penarol1916
The African-American community is not a shrinking part of the American population, it was 12.3% of the population in 2000 and an estimated 13.3% of the population in 2003. It is the Caucasion American community that is the only part of the American population that is shrinking as a percentage of the total population.
2005-08-24 12:11:47
66.   Icaros
51 I grew up in a city (or town) that borders Vallejo. I'm living in my former hometown right now.

Damon Hollins of Tampa Bay went to Vallejo High, where he played against my school (he was varsity when I was JV). I also played against Jermaine Dye, who grew up in the Bay Area suburbs as well.

Did you only mean major metropolitan cities, or does any American city count?

2005-08-24 12:12:17
67.   Penarol1916
64.
Nope, this is a substitute board for me. I just got tired of all the Laker board refugees on that board, plus, this one just has so much more and better information on the Dodgers than that board, so I just decided to stop going there.
2005-08-24 12:15:44
68.   D4P
I never thought of you as a "hardcore, primarily on the board to talk baseball and the Dodgers" kinda guy. I always enjoyed our off-topic discussions, and didn't realize you were looking mostly for Dodger info.

Anyway, fare thee well. You'll be missed (and already have been).

2005-08-24 12:18:30
69.   Jon Weisman
From Ron Kantowski of the Las Vegas Sun:

"This just in: The Los Angeles Dodgers have announced that for the first time, they will not be calling up any players from Triple-A Las Vegas when the major league rosters expand Sept. 1.

That's a joke sports fans -- like the one the Dodgers pulled on the 51s by putting those players here in the first place."

2005-08-24 12:21:04
70.   Icaros
69 Grabowski doesn't even get a call up? Steve will be so bummed.
2005-08-24 12:25:04
71.   Jon Weisman
70 - Frankly, I can't quite believe it, especially because the Jacksonville players will be tied up in playoff games for a while. I'm sure there's an extra bat, arm or runner the injury-plagued Dodgers could use from Las Vegas.

And I'm still looking to see where it was announced.

2005-08-24 12:27:16
72.   Icaros
Kidding aside, I thought Willy Aybar would get a call up, at least.
2005-08-24 12:29:25
73.   Peanuts in My Shoes
71 Am I missing something? Doesn't the reporter admit "That's a joke"?
2005-08-24 12:30:45
74.   Jon Weisman
73 - Oh, maybe you're right. I read "that's a joke" as "that's an insult."
2005-08-24 12:30:57
75.   dagwich
First thing that popped up in my mind wrt this Bradley-Kent dustup: Makeup baseball is better than breakup baseball. Perhaps Tracy will (finally) earn his money this year and negotiate a successful detente between these two.

Bradley said a lot yesterday, but the thing I hold onto is: "Jeff Kent is the best option around at second base. So why wouldn't I want to be on a team with Jeff Kent? We don't have to be friends." I hope that is not just happy talk but how he really feels.

All that talk about TV and movies yesterday got me to thinking: wouldn't Bradley be the perfect protagonist in a Spike Lee baseball movie?

2005-08-24 12:32:31
76.   Monterey Chris
It is vague as to what the "joke" is referring to...did the reporter make that up as a joke or is he calling the Dodgers decision a joke?
2005-08-24 12:35:06
77.   db1022
I wonder if Milton is acquaintances with Barry Bonds at all. This whole "Jeff Kent can't deal with African Americans" really sounds like a reference to the Bonds/Kent situation. I would hope that he's not getting fed misinformation from someone like Bonds.

69 - I don't get that joke at all.

2005-08-24 12:36:45
78.   Yakface
The joke is that The dodgers put a Team in las vegas.
2005-08-24 12:43:27
79.   db1022
Is he saying that the 51s stink? That the Dodgers are not fielding a quality AAA team?
2005-08-24 12:44:44
80.   Kayaker7
77 Steve is the owner of the website, firejimtracy.com. He coined the term, Grabowski Principle. I'm not sure if I'm quoting it correctly, but if a pitcher gives up a HR to Grabs, that is a clear indication that the pitcher should be relieved.
2005-08-24 12:47:29
81.   Penarol1916
68.
Well, I didn't talk primarily about the Dodgers, because being stuck out here in Chicago, I don't have a lot to say, that's why I don't post very much on these comments, but just read them. I talked a lot about off-topic things, because that is where I have more knowledge.
Like I said before keep an eye out for the August 31 Dodger game at Wrigley when I'll be the first person kicked out for verbally abusing their 7-year old daughter at the park.
2005-08-24 12:47:57
82.   Yakface
79-I believe he's saying either that or why would you put a AAA team in 120^F dry heat desert party town.
2005-08-24 12:52:30
83.   Bob Timmermann
75

Would it be detente or rapprochement?

I ask this question mainly because of the length of the words.

2005-08-24 12:58:58
84.   Icaros
Bob, answer my question in #66, would you? Thanks pal.
2005-08-24 13:05:36
85.   GoBears
83 Would it be detente or rapprochement?

I'm guessing the best we could hope for at this point would be detente. Which would be sufficient.

2005-08-24 13:07:38
86.   Howard Fox
I haven't read all the posts today, just the Simers article and the lead LA Times article. So I am sure whatever I might say has already been covered.

Not being black, I cannot understand what Milton is going thru or faces on a daily basis. The race issue is always right out there for all to see all the time.

It has always seemed to me that playing the race card, so to speak, can be an easy way of avoiding dealing with what may be an uncomfortable situation, or not dealing with it. This is not to say that too often race isn't an issue.

I have always been a Bradley defender, loving his spirit and fire. However, I do find these comments from him difficult to take, and believe they would have best been kept in the clubhouse behind closed doors.

Personally, I suspect that if they were riding a successful season, I don't think any of this would have amounted to much. This is a case of two aggressive ambitious athletes frustrated at how the season has unfolded.

2005-08-24 13:08:23
87.   dagwich
83 OED queries reveal:
detente: The easing of strained relations, esp. in a political situation.

rapprochement: A coming or bringing together, an establishment of harmonious relations.

Hmmm, I think detente is more attainable than rapprochement. That said, this is a more personal than political situation, though political issues have been raised.

My favorite phrase from the detente era is "Trust but verify." I find a use for it at least once a week.

2005-08-24 13:16:41
88.   Jon Weisman
Minor Hochevar update up top.
2005-08-24 13:19:01
89.   db1022
80 - hmm?
2005-08-24 13:20:52
90.   db1022
Luke Hochevar, meet Matt Harrington. Matt wanted to talk to you about some things, offer up some free advice...
2005-08-24 13:22:55
91.   Eric Stephen
Speaking of unsigned draft picks, has there been any official word on unsigned 9th-rounder Michael Davitt? I found the following:

http://www.al.com/sports/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/sports/1124702305169870.xml&coll=3

From the article:
"The defense was unstoppable," said Davitt, who was drafted in the ninth round of the June draft by the Los Angeles Dodgers, but signed with Okaloosa-Walton Community College.

This is the only news I had heard regarding Davitt. He and Hochevar are the only 2 unsigned draft picks of the first 15 rounds.

2005-08-24 13:24:44
92.   Marty
Instead of detente or rapprochement I'm afraid it will be mutually assured destruction.
2005-08-24 13:25:03
93.   Eric Stephen
Is there some sort of primer on formatting these comments?
2005-08-24 13:27:20
94.   db1022
link to a comment by putting it in brackets[#]

bold a comment by putting asterisks around your intended phrase

use www.tinyurl.com to format your big links

2005-08-24 13:27:30
95.   GoBears
Hey, any ESPN Insiders in the group? I'm interested to know what Neyer had to say about Erstad. I would imagine that it's something more interesting than "Erstad stinks," since he did that one the day after the Angels gave him that huge contract...
2005-08-24 13:32:55
96.   Eric Stephen
94
Thanks, db1022

Woo hoo!

2005-08-24 13:33:51
97.   King of the Hobos
I'm a little surpriesd Aybar and Young aren't being considered, plus Ross and Edwards because they're on the 40 man, but are possibly going to be replaced. Rose is the one that really surprises me, he's on the 40 man and a 3rd catcher might be nice.

As for pitchers, without Osoria, no one in Vegas has an ERA under 4.18 (Alfredo Gonzalez), and after that is 5.11 (Pat Mahomes)

Hochevar would be a tough loss, but I'm willing to accept it if he goes back to school

2005-08-24 13:34:09
98.   db1022
95 - It was actually pretty funny. He went back and forth with an emailer supporting Erstad. In the original email, after the requisite "why all the hate, man?", he said to name another current firstbaseman who's autograph will be worth more in 20 years than Erstad's.

Neyer's list (which didn't need to be longer than one) was highlighted by one Mr. Albert Pujols.

The emailer also said to "just look at the stats, Rob". So Rob did. Guess who won that one?

Would you like me to post the article, or is that unethical?

2005-08-24 13:41:59
99.   Bob Timmermann
84
Icaros,
I'm looking for African-Americans who tended to come from major metropolitan areas in the U.S. I would think their upbringing would differ from guys like Bonds and Griffey who probably didn't have to worry about getting equipment or coaching.

Vallejo would be close enough. It's in the seven-county area that defines the San Francisco-Oakland SMSA.

2005-08-24 13:42:12
100.   fanerman
I still don't understand why we don't just pay Hochevar. We knew (or should have had a good idea) of what it'd take to get him when we drafted him. If we weren't willing to pay, we should have drafted somebody else. That's what just about every other team did.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-08-24 13:45:27
101.   Howard Fox
99 how about Darryl Strawberry or Eric Davis
2005-08-24 13:46:10
102.   Bob Timmermann
Jeff Francouer got an unintentional walk today.

Mark Prior was the guilty party.

2005-08-24 13:46:45
103.   Bob Timmermann
101
I was looking for current players.
2005-08-24 13:48:32
104.   Jon Weisman
You can post about three paragraphs to tease it; don't do any more.
2005-08-24 13:49:08
105.   King of the Hobos
91 There won't be any word for awhile. By attending junior college, we can't sign him now, but we will have a one week period just before the draft to get him, a la Justin Upton. Am I correct?

Anyone heard anything about George McDonald? He's a 16th round pick that we were suppose to sign some point after he finished some series. Last I heard he said he planned on getting a deal done this year

2005-08-24 13:49:25
106.   Howard Fox
where did Bernie Williams, Gary Sheffield and Derek Jeter grow up?
2005-08-24 13:50:07
107.   GoBears
98 That's OK db. Thanks - I got the gist from your description.
2005-08-24 13:50:53
108.   Jon Weisman
100 - Well, on that theory, since no one wanted to pay Hochevar $5 million, he should have gone through the draft without being picked. And for that matter, Hochevar might as well have asked for $10 million.

Drafting Hochevar was a calculated risk, but it's not like every or even any draftee's highest salary demands get met.

2005-08-24 13:51:19
109.   gcrl
potential stoopid question - why are the runs prior allowed earned? if gameday is correct, there was a single, followed by a fc/error (charged to prior) allowing the batter to reach. so there should have been one out. then there are two strikeouts, which would have been three outs, before any of the runs score.
2005-08-24 13:51:51
110.   Sam DC
Bob -- how about Coco Crisp. mlb.com says he went to Inglewood HS.
2005-08-24 13:52:55
111.   Bob Timmermann
106
Bernie Williams grew up in Puerto Rico
Gary Sheffield is from Tampa (and on my original list)
Derek Jeter was born in New Jersey and grew up in Kalamazoo, Michigan I believe.
2005-08-24 13:53:12
112.   gcrl
100, 108 - jon's right. it's all about calculated risks. remember when the braves passed on van poppel because they were certain he was going to school? then the a's took a chance and were able to convince him to sign. the braves didn't do too badly, taking larry jones instead.
2005-08-24 13:54:03
113.   Sushirabbit
I am disappointed that Hochevar is holding out. I guess, if you thought there might be a realistic change at a Championship, but even then... I wonder if he has look at what's gone on with the young Dodger pitchers and thought maybe another organization might be better?

I think it is foolish to risk injury in hopes of getting more money. Anyway, as a UT grad, I would have like having a UT boy on the farm.

2005-08-24 13:54:05
114.   Howard Fox
111 okay, be that way...
2005-08-24 13:57:30
115.   Penarol1916
108.
There's a difference between not meeting a player's initial asking price, and only going halfway to that asking price as your top offer. Of course your answer about Hochevar going all the way through the draft without being picked is just silly, as the price of the risk goes down dramatically the lower the pick you waste.
2005-08-24 13:58:38
116.   Howard Fox
113 I agree with 112...Hochevar was a calculated risk, but if things don't work out for him, he will add to the growing list of Boras clients who held out for more money at the possible expense of intangibles.
2005-08-24 14:00:20
117.   natepurcell
davitt wil be a draft and follow.

his secondary pitches are very raw and the dodgers want to see how he does at the CC this year before deciding if they want to sign him or not.

on the hoch standoff, luke will be making a huge mistake if he doesnt sign and goes back in next year drafts. thats all there really is too it, he wont sniff the money he is being currently offered.

2005-08-24 14:09:09
118.   Bob Timmermann
Coco Crisp. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for.

Well, guys from Inglewood. But not Horacio Ramirez.

2005-08-24 14:12:09
119.   Jon Weisman
115 - it was intentionally silly. Obviously, that wouldn't happen. The fact is, the Dodgers used a 40th pick on a top-5 pitcher - thus lowering their risk and proving your latter point.

But even with Boras clients, I wouldn't assume that the pre-draft contract demand is ironclad, and I don't see why the Dodgers had to be prepared to spend what, if I'm not mistaken, would have been unusual money even for a top-5 pick.

2005-08-24 14:13:23
120.   GoBears
Actually, db, one more question about the Neyer thing. Did he offer a theory as to why Erstad is so overrated, given how badly he stinks? I've wondered lately if the Angels KNOW he stinks, but calculate that they bring in more revenue (tix, merchandise) from ignorant fans who love the guy than they would with more wins if they were to cut him. Especially since they manage to stay in 1st place anyway, and given the decade or so of good will that the WS win grants them.
2005-08-24 14:15:25
121.   Howard Fox
120 an answer to that could be that the goodwill generated by David Eckstein didn't seem to matter
2005-08-24 14:17:18
122.   Nagman
Did anybody mention Royce Clayton?
2005-08-24 14:18:00
123.   fanerman
120 - Neyer said "because we like him." Then commented on how he DOES play the way we'd play if we could play. With scrap and savvy (not those words) and complete disregard for his own well-being.. He's overrrated because we like him. Neyer doesn't talk about revenue.
2005-08-24 14:19:24
124.   Sam DC
Junior Spivey is from Oklahoma City. Not Inglewood, to be sure.
2005-08-24 14:20:21
125.   GoBears
121. Thought about that. But Eckstein, while popular, was never sold as a great player the way Erstad has been. And maybe they couldn't very well dump both at the same time. And they'd have to just dump Erstad, because his contract is too big to trade (or was - it might be running out now).
2005-08-24 14:21:25
126.   Monterey Chris
102

Bob,

Francouer was also intentionally walked last Sunday...Otsuka was the guilty party in that case (you probably mentioned that on Sunday's post but I have not read that).

2005-08-24 14:21:55
127.   Xeifrank
125. Eck doesn't know the Samba.

Any chance that Choi gets the start against the RHP submarine korean pitcher BY Kim? Kim has been hit pretty hard by lefties so far this year. Perhaps Buntermaker will play the arm angle card. Buntermaker doesn't seem to like to let Choi face Korean pitchers. vr, Xei

2005-08-24 14:22:24
128.   GoBears
123. Thanks. Apropos of the current discussion, I wonder if he'd be so well-liked if he weren't so translucently white. Would a Latin player or African-American player with the same stats and the same attitude get the same love?
2005-08-24 14:24:06
129.   natepurcell
i might boycott tonights game if choi doesnt play.
2005-08-24 14:25:53
130.   db1022
120 - Ok, I'll use my "about 3 paragraphs" ('4' is about '3', right? it's a very long article, and well worth a complete read) limit to post this [my adds in brackets]:

"Why do so many believe that Erstad is a better player than he actually is? For one thing, we like him. We really, really do. He plays hard. He wears that black stuff under his eyes when the sun is shining. He slams into walls and catchers. He plays the way we think we would play -- if only we got the chance.

Of course three someones [Moreno, Stoneman, Scioscia] thought Erstad was worth more than his numbers. So what? How many powerful someones thought Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano, and Jaret Wright would make for a crackerjack pitching rotation this season? How many powerful someones thought Jim Thome was worth a long-term contract for a gazillion bucks? Oh, and didn't the same three powerful someones who gave Erstad his shiny contract also think that Steve Finley was the cat's pajamas?

But getting back to your fundamental question, I can only guess that Moreno and Stoneman ponied up for Erstad because they believed 1) that his value does, indeed, extend beyond his performance on the field, and that 2) his performance on the field might again approach its former heights. It's easy to forget now, but at one point Erstad was actually a good hitter. This season marks his ninth as an everyday player (including 2003, most of which he missed because of a hamstring injury). Here are Erstad's Adjusted OPS (OPS+) totals in his first eight seasons (remember, 100 is league average):

[a table with frightening numbers - think if Jason Phillips started at 1B since 2000. Ok now stop screaming.]

So we remember his successes, we forget his failures, we ignore his lack of power, and we pretend the $8.25 million this season couldn't have been better spent elsewhere (not to mention the $7.75 million last season and the $8 million-plus next season).

2005-08-24 14:25:55
131.   Penarol1916
119.
To me that risk was not calculated very well given how likely they were to sign. Obviously where they seem to be erring is on how low one is willing to go. There is just a huge opportunity cost here. If they weren't willing to go higher, they had to have seen that their chances of signing him weren't higher than 50%. Now to do you take a 50% chance at a top 10 player, or a 90% chance at a top 50 player?
2005-08-24 14:26:20
132.   GoBears
127. I was shocked enough to see Choi start yesterday -- 2nd time in less than a week. Two in a row would be astounding. His 0-3 last night (a hard 0-3, mind you, but 0-3 nonetheless) won't help his case.
2005-08-24 14:27:47
133.   db1022
128 - Hello Cesar Izturis!
2005-08-24 14:30:27
134.   GoBears
133. Hmm, good point. At least he plays a more important defensive position. And he's a little guy. Erstad is actually pretty big, and wasted at first base. If he were still in CF, I could see some argument for keeping him around, but no defensive first baseman is worth such lousy offense.
2005-08-24 14:31:49
135.   Howard Fox
134 isn't that what they used to say about Wes Parker?
2005-08-24 14:34:50
136.   fanerman
I guess I see about Hochevar. Still, it's pretty clear, even to me, that Hochevar won't get as much money if he went back to school. Seems like it's in both sides' best interest for Hochevar to sign now rather than wait for next year.
2005-08-24 14:35:51
137.   natepurcell
dunno if this has been posted yet, but its a recent chat with scott boras.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=141

2005-08-24 14:38:50
138.   Bob Timmermann
Darin Erstad looks like Albert Pujols when you match him up against Steve Finley.
2005-08-24 14:40:45
139.   GoBears
135. Did they, Howard? By the time I awoke to the joys of Dodgerdom, it was already 1974, and Garvey was ensconced.

I don't know Parker's stats, adjusted for league and era. But just because it was said about him that his defensive value didn't make up for any offensive liabilities doesn't make it false. He might very well have been the Erstad of the 1960s. Then again, that was a pitchers' era.

2005-08-24 14:45:59
140.   Humma Kavula
137
Interesting article. Boras seems reasonable here, but then...

He says he puts more weight on the first contract than on contracts to follow because of future risks -- fair enough. But then he says that 100% of his college players go on to become major leaguers. With a success rate like that, wouldn't there to be some way to balance the risk involved in the first contract?

2005-08-24 14:47:24
141.   Jon Weisman
131 - I think that's a good question. Given the Dodger depth in what one might consider top-50 players, I'm not sure the 50-percent shot at the top-10 player wasn't the way to go. But it's certainly debatable.

Let's not forget that what we're seeing right now from Hochevar could still be a ploy. Not saying that it is, just reminding of the possibility.

2005-08-24 14:48:04
142.   Bob Timmermann
The current Dodgers against Byung-Hyun Kim

Bradley 2 for 5
Cruz 2 for 4
Izturis 2 for 3
Kent 5 for 18
Ledee 1 for 3
A Perez 0 for 3
Phillips 0 for 2
Repko 1 for 3
Robles 2 for 3
Saenz 2 for 4
Valentin 0 for 2
Weaver 0 for 1
Werth 0 for 4

Surprisingly Choi has never faced Kim. And he has the arm angle in his favor!

2005-08-24 14:48:07
143.   Howard Fox
140 as an agent, his charge is to minimize the financial risks to his clients in the event the careet doesn't proceed as expected....in other words, to get that they can as soon as they can...
2005-08-24 14:48:17
144.   Jon Weisman
Also keep in mind that if the Dodgers lose Hochevar, that's $2.5 million they get to spend elsewhere - plus do they not get a supplemental draft pick in 2006? Or is that only for true first-rounders?
2005-08-24 14:50:46
145.   GoBears
141. I'm not sure in which direction you meant "ploy," Jon, but my thought was that maybe the kid really wants to go back for his senior year, so he instructed Boras to ask for something impossible - that he either regrets having entered the draft, or just did so to get a sense of his value. Maybe.
2005-08-24 14:52:12
146.   Howard Fox
so in baseball, if you hire an agent, you don't lose your college eligibility?
2005-08-24 14:53:12
147.   Humma Kavula
143 I agree with your first clause, but I'm not sure that your second necessarily follows.

I'm neither an agent nor a lawyer, but I think that agents have another role: that of career advisor. He might say, "X is in your best short-term interests -- you don't know how things are going to play out in your future -- but under other scenarios, Y might be better. To make your descision, you need to weigh . . ."

I don't think Boras is evil or even misguided for thinking the way he does -- just wondering if he has more than one role with the player.

2005-08-24 14:53:13
148.   Bob Timmermann
Given the time period that Parker played in and at Dodger Stadium during its cavernous period, he wasn't all that bad.

He has a career OPS+ of 111.

He had one fluky year in 1970 when be batted .319 and led the NL in doubles with 47. He hit just 10 home runs that season.

Parker remains as the lone alum of Claremont McKenna (Claremont Men's in his day) that made it to the big leagues.

One of Parker's problems about playing was that he didn't like the hours. I read a book once where he talked about how he waited having to wait around all day for a game to start. He felt like he was wasting his time. When he played in Japan, he was given a much fuller practice schedule and the games started earlier.

2005-08-24 14:59:14
149.   Bob Timmermann
147
Boras technically isn't an agent for Hochevar because he's entered into no fiduciary agreement. No money has changed hands. Above board.

Boras is just Hochevar's "friend".

2005-08-24 14:59:40
150.   Jon Weisman
146 - Rich Lederer of Baseball Analysts told me in an e-mail that there is a distinction between having an agent and having an advisor. Sounds just perfectly subtle, but I guess that's how some athletes get by.

145 - maybe not the most likely scenario, but entirely possible.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-08-24 15:00:26
151.   Jon Weisman
Wes Parker - fellow high school alumni of mine, I think.
2005-08-24 15:01:18
152.   Howard Fox
149 a relationship such as that would render a college basketball player ineligible, correct?
2005-08-24 15:06:42
153.   Bob Timmermann
I think the basketball players go and actually pay the agent to represent them, hence the difference.

And I think Wes Parker graduated from Harvard High in 1958. That's he was billed in a Harvard Westlake Alumni Golf Tournament.

Parker's team won.

Harry Kingman, who is the only Pomona College grad to make it to the majors (Pomona and Claremont McKenna are both part of the same system), also went to Harvard High.

2005-08-24 15:08:41
154.   sanchez101
What advantage does Hochevar have going into next years draft? From my understanding its supposed to be loaded with college pitchers, 7 out of the top 9 sophomers rated by BA this year were pitchers. After the top 5 or so you really dont see anyone signing for more than $2.5 million. This year's #5 pick, 3B ryan braun, got $2.45 million, the #6 pick, lhp ricky romero, got $2.4 million. No one after them has gotten $2 million, although pelfrey and maybe maybin could get more but are unsigned. The point is, its unlikely that hochevar would get drafted in the top 5 next year, and thats really his only chance at getting the same or more money than the $2.5 million that the dodgers are offering now.
2005-08-24 15:11:31
155.   Marty
Jon, you went to high school with Wes Parker?
2005-08-24 15:12:23
156.   Marty
153. I'm betting Dave Kingman didn't go to Pomona College
2005-08-24 15:13:08
157.   Jon Weisman
You never tire of your Harry Kingman references, Bob. And I never remember them more than five minutes later.

154 - thanks. That's why I find it hard to take the $5 million or even $4 million request seriously. Essentially, Hochevar is asking the Dodgers to pay a 50-percent premium or more to get him a year sooner.

2005-08-24 15:13:37
158.   Bob Timmermann
153
Dave is not as civilized and well-bred as Harry was and he went to the school on Figueroa. You know, it's across the street from a Sizzler.
2005-08-24 15:13:47
159.   Jon Weisman
155 - minus the decade-and-a-half difference, yes.
2005-08-24 15:14:23
160.   Jon Weisman
Dave Kingman was my Dad's secretary's husband's college roommate! I am so connected!
2005-08-24 15:14:37
161.   natepurcell
next years draft will incredibly college pitcher heavy.

andrew miller UNC
daniel bard UNC
ian kennedy USC
max scherzer UM

some other ones i cant remember. hoch will have a hard time getting in the top 5.

2005-08-24 15:14:42
162.   Bob Timmermann
157

Well, I only spent the better part of six months researching the guy's life. And I even went to UC Berkeley to read his collected papers. And touch his handwritten letter from Gandhi that he received.

2005-08-24 15:15:12
163.   Howard Fox
my guess is Wes Parker is almost old enough to be Jon's dad
2005-08-24 15:17:11
164.   Bob Timmermann
Wes Parker is 64.
2005-08-24 15:17:25
165.   Bob Timmermann
Make that 65.
2005-08-24 15:18:45
166.   FirstMohican
...white people never want to see race with anything."

Why is that an OK generalization? I haven't heard that line questioned once in the paper or on the radio or here.

2005-08-24 15:24:04
167.   Jon Weisman
166 - I guess I didn't take it seriously - it seemed so directed at Kent, even though (you're right) it does come across as a false generalization.

163 - You're right. Wes is old enough to be my dad ... but not quite as old as my dad. Did I say decade and a half? Bump that up by another decade.

2005-08-24 15:25:48
168.   Bob Timmermann
My personal season at Dodger Stadium:

April 12 Dodgers 9, Giants 8
April 27 Diamondbacks 6, Dodgers 3
May 4 Nationals 5, Dodgers 2
May 21 Angels 3, Dodgers 1
May 30 Cubs 5, Dodgers 3
June 3 Brewers 7, Dodgers 5
June 11 Twins 5, Dodgers 3
July 16 Dodgers 5, Giants 4

2005-08-24 15:35:25
169.   Nagman
Don't worry, Bob, we're counting on a progression to the mean.
2005-08-24 15:45:24
170.   FirstMohican
167 - I didn't mean you specifically when I said "here." It seemed to me like the focus was on Kent and his supposed racism or insensitivity to blacks when it's absolutely clear that Bradley has no problem dropping generalizations based on race.

Your point makes sense. When so much nonsense comes from someone you start put a little less stock into what they say.

2005-08-24 15:50:06
171.   Jon Weisman
"I didn't mean you specifically when I said 'here.' "

I know.

2005-08-24 15:56:08
172.   Jon Weisman
This is the game chat thread...
2005-08-24 15:58:19
173.   dzzrtRatt
166,167...regarding "white people never want to see race with anything." I actually thought that was a rather insightful and revealing comment by Bradley.

The fact is, white people feel a tremendous sense of privilege to move about a place like Los Angeles, even in predominately non-white neighborhoods. Whites might be afraid of crime, but we don't as a rule feel like we "shouldn't" be there or are arousing suspicion just because of our ethnicity. Similarly, if a white person in an office is having trouble with their boss, we analyze it as having to do with differing philosophies, expectations, poor chemistry--whatever--but probably not race, even if that boss is black, Latino or Asian. But a black person who is having trouble with a white boss has no choice but to entertain the possibility that it is due to race.

In the past 50 years, the race issue has evolved from a legal one, i.e. formal, legal barriers to equality, to a primarily psychological one. This is the entire rationale for continued affirmative action. It is assumed that among some whites, including some whites who are in power, there are unconscious or unacknowledged negative racial attitudes that account for disparities in outcome, and that these disparities should be offset by a conscious program to strongly encourage inclusion.

This is a long way of saying that I think Bradley's comment about the general failure of whites to "see race" in situations like this one is defensible. "Never" might be too strong, but "very, very seldom" would be right on. Bradley is also right in saying that whites, generally, don't want to deal with racial issues. They're uncomfortable, and they upset widespread notions that whites are "over" racism. It's a disease on the run, thank God, but it is not over.

Kent might be an equal-opportunity a-hole, but if you're a black guy on the receiving end of it--the only black guy on the team--it is understandable why you might think your race had something to do with it. That's just the reality of our society.

2005-08-24 15:59:03
174.   DougS
170 A couple of things occur to me: 1) That Howard Fox's earlier comment about how this wouldn't be that big a deal if the team were winning right now contains much truth.

2) The human animal being what it is, individuals will always look for rationalizations about why they just don't get along with other individuals. And in a multiracial, multiethnic society, race and ethnicity are excuses that lie close at hand. I suspect that that's what's going on with Bradley and Kent.

2005-08-24 16:00:39
175.   Felton
There is some opinion that JD Drew would be better off long-term if he plays cf. Milton Bradley was asked to surrender cf last year for Steve Finley and it certainly appears to be a strong possibility that LA will move Bradley to open cf for Drew in 2006. How much does this play into Bradley's current emotions?

I think most of the "underpaid" ballplayers are "underpaid" because of lack of MLB time rather than any other issue.

2005-08-24 16:00:56
176.   gvette
1)Interesting in all the Kent vs Milton talk that no one has brought up the Jason Reid fiasco from last year, where Milton again played the race card, but on an African American.

2)Wes Parker was always one of my favorites. Supposedly he was an heir to the Parker pen fortune, which according to John Roseboro's autobiography, led some teammates to question his work ethic.

But he was awesome in '70, and used a pretty heavy bat, if the game used one I have of his is typical.

2005-08-24 16:04:05
177.   Jon Weisman
I think this might be a bigger deal if the Dodgers were winning - in that there would be more at stake, more to lose. I don't really feel like this is a big deal right now, actually. Is this a bigger deal than the Milton Traumas of '04?

I also think it will have very little impact on the Dodgers' ability to win going forward.

2005-08-24 16:08:34
178.   Bob Timmermann
Random Dodger game callback

August 24, 1925

On a contentious day at Ebbets Field, Brooklyn and Chicago split a
doubleheader. Brooklyn won the first game, 13-6 and the Cubs took the
second game, 11-6. Brooklyn was now 56-61 and 15 ½ games behind first
place Pittsburgh and in fifth place.

In the opener, Brooklyn was leading 1-0 in the third. Burleigh Grimes
struck out Cubs right fielder Cliff Heathcote, who complained to home
plate umpire Charlie Wilson, who ejected Heathcote. In the bottom of
the inning, Cubs pitcher Percy Jones walked Zack Wheat on a pitch that
Cubs catcher Gabby Hartnett thought was a strike. And Wilson ejected
Hartnett. This sent the entire Cubs bench into a frenzy and in the
end; Wilson ejected everyone on the Cubs bench except player-manager
Rabbit Maranville, a coach, and two other reserves.

So Jones had to finish out the game and Brooklyn scored 9 times
against him in the third and added three more in the eighth. Zack
Wheat and Jack Fournier hit home runs for Brooklyn. The Cubs scored
all their runs in the eighth.

The nightcap was a little more peaceful. Joe Bush pitched for the Cubs
and went the distance, giving up six runs, including Wheat's second
home run of the day. Meanwhile the Cubs bashed out 15 hits against
Rube Erhardt, Joe Oeschger, Bill Hubbell and Guy Cantrell.

Brooklyn finished 68-85 and tied with Philadelphia for sixth place, 27
games behind the first place Pirates. The Cubs finished a half game
behind Brooklyn and Philadelphia in last place. Brooklyn lost 17 of
its last 19 games.

Wheat finished third in the NL in batting average at .359 and third in
doubles with 42. Fournier was third in the NL in homers with 22 and
second in OBP at .446 with a league-leading 86 walks. Rogers Hornsby
led the NL in batting at .403 as part of a Triple Crown winning season
as he hit 39 home runs and drove in 143.

Grimes got a win on August 24, but 1925 was one of the worst seasons
in his long career. He was 12-19 with a 5.04 ERA. Dazzy Vance kept
Brooklyn out of the cellar with a stellar 22-9 record and a 3.53 ERA
and he led the league in strikeouts with 221.

Chicago's manager on this day, Maranville, would end up playing for
the Dodgers in 1926. The Cubs would use three managers in 1925,
Maranville being the second one in between the tenures of Bill
Killefer and George Gibson.

The Dodgers went through a procession of owners in 1925. Charles
Ebbets passed away on April 18 from heart failure. Co-owner Edward
McKeever caught a cold at Ebbets's funeral, which turned into
pneumonia and killed him. McKeever's brother, Steve, took over the
team and gave manager Wilbert Robinson the title of president. This
setup would not serve the Dodgers well in the coming years. It would
take a couple of decades before the Dodgers had any financial
stability.

Thanks to the Chicago Tribune, BaseballReference.com. Dodgers.com and Retrosheet

2005-08-24 16:10:49
179.   Nagman
Jon - I always enjoy your headlines but don't get this one, at least the "...Manual Kent" part... can you explain it to me so I can go "Oh, I can't believe I didn't get it."
2005-08-24 16:11:17
180.   Bob Timmermann
Fred Worth, using Lee Sinins' Sabermetric Encyclopedia has told me that Oscar Robles is not yet the leader in most CS without a SB.

The alltime leader is Pete Runnels who was 0 for 10 in 1952.

Old friend Jose Offerman was 0 for 8 in 2000.

Eight others have had 0 for 7 years in steals, most recently Chet Lemon in 1983.

2005-08-24 16:14:42
181.   Borchard504
Bradley is great to call out Jeff Kent. Kent and Bonds were more alike than they ever thought, it looks like.

Though I grew up in Ventura, I've lived in the south, Texas and Kentucky, I totally agree with Bradley's comments about redneck jokes and attitudes - the mental thought process is 40 years behind the times it seems, with some folks, just as described by Simers' article.

2005-08-24 16:14:59
182.   db1022
179 - I'm guessing a play on words from the Usual Suspect's lead "Verbal Kint"
2005-08-24 16:15:32
183.   db1022
at least that's what I thought of when I read it...
2005-08-24 16:16:16
184.   db1022
181 - When did you live in Ventura?
2005-08-24 16:16:21
185.   Jon Weisman
The headline refers to two famous writers from centuries past.
2005-08-24 16:17:44
186.   Bob Timmermann
I used to think "Paradise Lost" and "Lost Horizons" were the same book.
2005-08-24 16:20:31
187.   db1022
185 - Yeah, I didn't think mine made sense.
2005-08-24 16:23:55
188.   Jon Weisman
I wonder if Edward McKeever studied William Henry Harrison growing up. Got to wear a coat to those big outdoor gatherings.
2005-08-24 16:31:05
189.   Bob Timmermann
I will also add that I've never read "Paradise Lost" or "Lost Horizons", but I've seen the movie of the latter. The original one, not the 1970s one.

I left out that another one of the owners after the death of Ebbets and Edward McKeever was the Brooklyn Trust Company.

That was a company that employed a lawyer named Walter O'Malley.

2005-08-24 16:56:58
190.   dzzrtRatt
185 Ah, a couple of Dead White European Males. No wonder no one got it. They don't teach Kant or Milton in colleges anymore. ;]
2005-08-24 17:05:10
191.   ddger
AM 570 is reporting that Milton is meeting with McCourt right now and an announcement will be made before the game tonight.

It looks like Milton's injury is not serious enough to keep him out so there might be some disciplinary action coming up.

2005-08-24 17:14:31
192.   Bob Timmermann
What could you discipline Milton Bradley for? Being unhappy? Saying things that people disagree with? I'd love to see the MLBPA react to Bradley being fined for being outspoken.

Odalis Perez got called into McCourt's office too. It was probably just a chance for everybody to get all their complaints out on the table.

2005-08-24 17:23:20
193.   dzzrtRatt
I see the hand of Sitrick and Co. in this meeting between McCourt and Bradley. Unless there are facts not known, I very much doubt that disciplinary action will be the result, as that would cause an avalanche of terrible publicity. More likely, there will be some attempt by McCourt to demonstrate that he is taking action to fix the interpersonal problems that have beset the Dodgers.

My worst case guess is that Bradley has asked to be DFA'd or traded so he can play elsewhere, and McCourt will announce he has acceded to this request. My best case guess is that McCourt is creating a diversity committee and Bradley will be a member of it.

2005-08-24 17:24:55
194.   Bob Timmermann
Bradley is part of a whole bunch of Dodger promos. Kent is hardly in any.

I'm thinking Milton is sticking around and might be forced to make some public sign of reconciliation with Kent.

2005-08-24 17:27:27
195.   Monterey Chris
McCourt, DePo and Tracy have all invested much in Bradley...I doubt they would do anything to get rid of him right now.

Bradley will ask to be traded if Tracy is fired. But I doubt he would ask over this.

2005-08-24 17:31:18
196.   Yakface
181-Kent grew up in Huntington Beach and went to Berkely, he only recently moved to texas, How in the world is he a redneck? I bet the man has more sophistication in his pinky finger than Bradley has in his huge heart.
2005-08-24 17:36:09
197.   Bob Timmermann
So long, I'll be at the game tonight.

I'll try to say something arcane to the other people in my section. Maybe Robles will be CS and I can invoke the name of Offerman!

2005-08-24 17:37:25
198.   Yakface
If you see odalis call him a Peanut for me :)
2005-08-24 17:37:54
199.   Icaros
Does anyone suppose Jeff Kent met many fellow motocross fans while at Berkely?
2005-08-24 17:42:41
200.   Yakface
199-Do you suppose he met motocross fans while growing up in HB? Yeh probably.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-08-24 17:43:45
201.   OaklandAs
Choi gets his second straight start, and Bradley and Izturis out of the lineup again.
Early Lineups...

SS Robles
1B Choi
LF Ledee
2B Kent
3B Saenz
CF Werth
C Navarro
RF Cruz, Jr.
P Houlton

2005-08-24 17:46:43
202.   Yakface
I'd rather see Repko in left than Ledee( due to his hammy problem) but besides that the line-up looks alright.
2005-08-24 17:52:41
203.   ddger
After watching Werth at CF last night, Cruz should play CF instead.
2005-08-24 17:53:16
204.   dzzrtRatt
197
Q: How can you tell when Bob Timmerman is saying something arcane?

A: His lips are moving.

2005-08-24 17:54:36
205.   bokonon42
I'm not willing to take MB's word for it that Kent was telling racist jokes. He hasn't repeated any of the jokes, he hasn't even made any specific charge of racism. At this point, his only accusation of a racial nature against Kent is that of racial insensitivity (one he generously extended to all white people). Until he does make an accusation of racism, and supports it with specific evidence, I don't think assuming Kent to be a racist is at all fair, or in any way founded.
2005-08-24 17:55:25
206.   dzzrtRatt
200 Housing for students in Berkeley is impossible, so a lot of them now commute in from places like Walnut Creek. Except for the climate, Walnut Creek might as well be in Oklahoma.
2005-08-24 17:56:42
207.   Icaros
Are you kidding me? Walnut Creek is yuppie central these days.
2005-08-24 17:59:08
208.   dzzrtRatt
205 I'm sure Kent was not telling racial jokes. Bradley did not call him a "racist." What Bradley is saying is much more subtle than that. He's saying that, as a black man, as one of the only black men on the team, Bradley experiences the repeated negative commentary from Kent as having a racial dimension--irrespective of what Kent means in his heart of hearts. All Bradley is asking is for this simple fact to be recognized and given some consideration by the team, the fans, the media and Kent himself.
2005-08-24 18:02:07
209.   bigcpa
If Bradley is suspended, I have a feeling the trade demand comes soon after. What a mess.
2005-08-24 18:08:22
210.   Rob M
201 Love that lineup.

208 That is my interpretation as well. It's unfortunate the Bradley didn't put it so elequently, but I'm willing to extend him at least that much benefit of the doubt. And I hope he begins to feel secure enough in his role with the team that he stops feeling sensitive about Kent's attitude, because I really want Bradley around for a while, and Kent around for another year.

2005-08-24 18:10:40
211.   Suffering Bruin
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm off! Fifteen rows behind home plate! I may never have seats this good again! And yes, I plan on calling everyone and my mother on the cell phone if I'm on TV. I think I'm sitting just a shade too far back so you'll all be spared.

Predictions on who gets booed and cheered? Julian thinks Bradley gets booed tonight. I'm inclined to agree though I as I said a few miles upthread, I'll be cheering both players.

2005-08-24 18:11:34
212.   Suffering Bruin
201 Check my last post as I just saw the lineup. Choi starting! I might just faint from shock!
2005-08-24 18:12:47
213.   bokonon42
208- I think you're right in general, but in particular Bradley threw out this:

"There are things he said off the cuff that I don't interpret as funny," he said. "I think it may be funny to him and maybe Jeff Foxworthy, but it's not funny to Milton Bradley."

I've been listening to too much talk-radio I guess, where the charge is that Kent is a flat-out racist. I read through the comments, but the talk-radio tone is still buzzing in my ear. I need a pallate cleansing cigarette.

Did anybody know that Jeff Foxworthy has sold more albums than any other comic, ever? More than Richard Pryor. Mostly because he's Walmart friendly. Crazy.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2117112/

2005-08-24 18:17:55
214.   ddger
Should Tracy bear any responsibility for this feud being played out through media and public.
2005-08-24 18:23:12
215.   Odysseus
This is yet another case of media misreporting. The headline of the AP story did not match the actual reported facts. The media really hates Milton Bradley and the LA media really hates the Dodgers and Paul DePodesta.

This whole thing is overblown.

Bottom line, Milton is a little bit of a headcase, and Kent is kind of a jerk. Milton is also very intelligent and misunderstood.

2005-08-24 18:32:21
216.   Steelyeri
I was listening to the radio and David Vascey (sp?) said that Bradley had two meetings with ownership today. He also said that bradley isn't in the stadium today as he was asked to leave after his second meeting. This really sucks. This whole season has sucked. I don't think that bradley has done anything to warrant being suspended. I'm scared now. I really expected Milton to be part of the future of this team. I hope that isn't in jeopardy because of this whole situation.
2005-08-24 18:44:15
217.   Icaros
More scandal to report. The batboy who tried to drink the gallon of milk and win Brad Penny's $500 has been suspended for six games by the Florida Marlins.

http://tinyurl.com/79po9

Too ridiculous...

2005-08-24 18:46:51
218.   Steelyeri
O.K. I just heard one of the updates on 570am and they said Milton will have season ending knee surgery. Damn, this season just keeps getting worse.
2005-08-24 18:50:28
219.   Icaros
218 Cool. Now my favorite player, Jason Repko, will get the chance to play more and win himself a starting job for 2006!
2005-08-24 18:52:18
220.   ddger
Well, maybe Drew will be back soon.
2005-08-24 18:54:08
221.   Telemachos
I, for welcome, our new starting outfielder.

Sarcasm aside, I think the super-platoon of Valentine/Ledee/Repko/Perez??? will be our Bradley replacements.

Who knows, perhaps Jason Phillips has some outfielder in him too.

2005-08-24 18:55:50
222.   trainwreck
206-
I am from Walnut Creek and still live her except when I am in Santa Barbara during the school year and Walnut Creek is yuppie central.
2005-08-24 18:58:44
223.   bokonon42
There are plenty of yuppies in Oklahoma, too. No state is safe from the yuppie menace, really.
2005-08-24 19:03:19
224.   DaveP
Is there an official announcement from the Dodgers on Bradley's status yet?

I'm not buying he's out for the season until I see it officially, since I've also read on the dodger board that he was suspended for tonight's game (per A Martinez on pregame show).

2005-08-24 19:05:33
225.   Nagman
No mention on SCSR just now...
2005-08-24 19:06:36
226.   Sam DC
Well, I for one hope Penny sends that kid $500 plus his lost wages. Didn't follow the link and don't know the whole story, but that sure sounds pretty ridiculous.
2005-08-24 19:07:01
227.   rageon
221 to complete the Simpsons reference...

I, for one, welcome our new scappy overlords.

2005-08-24 19:08:07
228.   DaveP
Vinny just said Bradley is out for the season with knee injury. 80% tear of mid-patella.
2005-08-24 19:08:40
229.   DaveP
Bradley going for 2nd opinion to confirm the need for surgery.
2005-08-24 19:10:24
230.   Steelyeri
I hope kent is happy now.
2005-08-24 19:11:03
231.   rageon
228 the hits just keep on comin'

Seriously, I've never seen anything like this in professional sports before. The only instance of this many injuries I've ever on a single team was my senior year of high school cross country, when we went through seven guys to fill the #5 spot, with injuries including getting hit by a train.

2005-08-24 19:12:28
232.   DaveP
who will replace Bradley on the roster? I wouldn't mind seeing John Weber get the shot.
2005-08-24 19:14:05
233.   Steelyeri
Now I REALLY wish that AP could play a little outfield.
2005-08-24 19:19:32
234.   scareduck
231 - tell it to the Giants. With Bonds' DL time and everything lost by Grissom (not to mention his inevitable old-age decline), their VORP loss has to be simply staggering.
2005-08-24 19:19:52
235.   Linkmeister
I heard Vinnie say 80% patellar tendon tear, and I looked at my knee, because I have one heckuva nice scar from my experience with that.

http://www.linkmeister.com/blog/archives/000082.html

I was in a cast for 3 months.

2005-08-24 19:29:05
236.   sanchez101
Choi gets 2 starts? Werth is put in center infavor or repko? Robles at SS? Maybe depodesta has quit his build-a-consensus attitude, and started throwing his weight around.

A man can dream.

2005-08-24 19:29:45
237.   los angeles dragons
This is what Wikipedia says about Kent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Kent):

"Tension had also grown between Kent and Bonds: a midseason shoving match in the Giants dugout was widely reported."

AND

"Furthermore, he acquired a poor reputation in the clubhouse where he was known for a quick temper and isolationism."

His "isolationism" may result from his isolated ranch in Texas.
Or it may result from "Texas."

2005-08-24 19:30:55
238.   Tommy Naccarato
Do any of you believe in this coincidence?
2005-08-24 19:31:22
239.   sanchez101
232. What about ty meadows. The guy has hit the snot out of the ball for three years in AA, but has never gotten a chance above that level. I'd think he should get a chance at somepoint, considering he's the best hitter on Jacksonville.
2005-08-24 19:34:15
240.   Sam DC
Bob -- don't know if you'll ever read this, but Choo Freeman: "Choo helped Dallas Christian High School to six state championships...in his senior year of 1998, DCHS won the Texas state baseball title," mlb.com
2005-08-24 19:34:35
241.   ddger
Does this mean Grabowski gets called up?
2005-08-24 19:34:45
242.   bokonon42
231- Yeah, but that's why it's never a good idea to put all your eggs in one (and a half) basket(s). Top four OFs, both parts of the 3B platoon, 2 SPs, and 3 RPs? None of the injured parties was as important as Bonds, but the synergy of all twelve together has to be worth more pity.
2005-08-24 19:35:09
243.   Gen3Blue
Sorry I haven't read through everything--but just having heard Bradley's facing season ending surgery--What is Bradley's contract staus for next year? how about Kent's?
2005-08-24 19:35:32
244.   bokonon42
234, I meant.
2005-08-24 19:36:46
245.   alex 7
Kent's on a two-year contract.
2005-08-24 19:38:56
246.   bokonon42
Bradley's up at the end of this year, right? Is he still arb. eligible?
2005-08-24 19:39:21
247.   DaveP
239 - forgout about the 40 man. Neither weber or meadows are on 40 man so not much chance of seeing them. Maybe Delwyn Young gets an early call up? Hope it's not Grabowski.
2005-08-24 19:39:22
248.   oldbear
How about tonite's lineup? THats just about the best we can ask for!

I think DePo finally told Tracy to do it his way for the final month.

2005-08-24 19:40:24
249.   los angeles dragons
246: Are you recommending the purge of Bradley?
2005-08-24 19:42:18
250.   alex 7
Assuming Tracy doesn't get to ballot stuff Repko's box, who's our rookie of the year? Seems like a lot of guys came up and did fairly well - Navarro, Thompson, Schmoll. Houlton's done ok all year. Did Sanchez use up his eligibility last season?

I'd vote Navarro due to no one else really standing out and because, due to his walk rate, he seems to have the most potential of the group. Hmm, well he and Broxton.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-08-24 19:43:05
251.   Steelyeri
246- yes. Bradley is still elligible for arb. next season. Kent has one more year under his contract at about 8.5 mils.
2005-08-24 19:44:31
252.   sanchez101
I was thinking about clubhouse chemisty the other day, before this whole bradley-kent thing came out. Im sure many of you have as well, considering all the heart and soul/scrappy comments made around hear. Ive always assumed that club house chemistry was important, but that it rarely if ever rely's on one personality, and that the media probably has little idea of what really goes on.

But if chemistry is really all that important, How do you explain Oakland winning three championships in the early 70's. Or the cardinals of the 1930's, the "gashouse gang". Although its not baseball, its certainly close to home, the recent laker championship teams. Maybe, just maybe, what the sports writers call "team chemistry", not only has nothing to do with winning, but it actually prevents winning.

The "boys of summer" dodgers of the 1950's had great clubhouse chemistry. I know this because sports writers said so, and they are the ones that decide this stuff. They were a great team for many years. And they have one world series to show for it. The Braves have rarely, if ever, had clubhouse issues. They put a high emphasis on a certain type of "makeup". Again many good teams, and not much success in the post season.

Why is this, why are their some teams that have great chemistry, but have trouble winning in the postseason? While other teams have serious personality conflicts, yet somehow string championships together? Is there a connection?

2005-08-24 19:46:20
253.   bokonon42
Anybody willing to admit to being the guy in the orange shirt who tried to shake BH Kim's hand after his groundout? Where did SB say he was going to sit?

251- Thanks.

2005-08-24 19:46:43
254.   King of the Hobos
Personally, giving Young today and tomorrow in the OF, then calling him up after the second opinion makes sense to me. If we decide not to do that, Weber is the only other player I have any interest seeing in our OF. Meadows is on the DL
2005-08-24 19:48:43
255.   ddger
Let's not forget Ross and Chen at AAA.
2005-08-24 19:49:40
256.   King of the Hobos
Sean Burroughs, who has worse power than several pitchers, has hit a homer off Erickson. And my Young plan hasn't gone into effect, and I doubt it will.
2005-08-24 19:50:42
257.   ddger
Tracy should start playing Cruz at CF instead of Werth. Cruz has played lot more CF than RF and has more speed than Werth.
2005-08-24 19:51:19
258.   Gen3Blue
Thanks 245,246.
This injury streak is incredible and hitting people I just hoped might have potential. At least not a lot of long term contracts, which I think are going to go the way of the Drive In Movie. Remember Brown's 7 Year w/medicare package. So maybe they can put whats his name (right field, though I never saw what made him worth >5mil a year)back together for next year. And we can buy a few more till the farms start producing. Oh yeah--J.D.Drew
2005-08-24 19:51:33
259.   KAYVMON
Off topic but, can someone please explain to me what Budweiser did to the Maris family that was so bad that they are paying them 120 million dollars. Yes, $120,000,000. I read the article and I still dont get it. Theres got to be at least five people here who are in law school.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8768702

2005-08-24 19:52:34
260.   ddger
who would have expected a scoreless tie so far?
2005-08-24 19:53:24
261.   alex 7
I'd like a look at Young, but how often would he play? Isn't he limited to 2B or would they really play him in the OF at this level? Seems if A. Perez can't get much PT at 2B, Young would get even less.

Broxton, Aybar (who'll see some PT at 3B), maybe Hanrahan?

2005-08-24 19:54:45
262.   bokonon42
If that was Choi's bright idea, he should never start again.
2005-08-24 19:55:05
263.   King of the Hobos
And Choi was running because...? Tracy needs to learn that 2 spot doesn't mean fast, especially with guys as big as Choi
2005-08-24 19:56:58
264.   mountainmover
I am not from California, so I don't have to be politically correct. However, I am a Dodger fan. Here are the facts:

1. I have been a Champion of Milton Bradley since he was acquired;

2. I stood up for him when he blew up, was suspended, arrested and jailed;

3. I said he would grow up;

4. Kent has been crucified in the media MORE than Bradley-he just doesn't care about it as much;

5. I used to hate Kent-especially as a Giant;

6. Bradley was called out by Kent in private;

7. Bradley called Kent out in public - that's chickenbleep anyway you look at it;

8. Bradley says that what Kent called him out for was not racial, but then plays the race card by saying Kent is insensitive to blacks;

8. Which is it? Racial or not? "I called Kent out and it's not racial, but I don't think he knows how to deal with blacks?" WHAT USE IS THAT?

9. Milton has not dealt with why Kent called him out. Hummmmmmmmm:

10. At the very least, Bradly is a Racist. At most, he is a stupid racist!

11. Saying "I'm glad I'm black or as long as I'm still black, everything is OK" is about as racist as you can get.

12. Jeff Kent has been classy throughout all of this. Milton has been the anthetsis of class his whole career.

13. Anyone who sticks up for Milton on this has a closet racist agenda (IMHO);

I am sick of the fact that some blacks (like Milton) expect whites (like me) to always act a certain way, but they can say whatever they want about us. That's BS!

Before you say that I am a racist, consider this:

My wife is Filipino, my daughter-in-law is Chinese, I have two black brother-in-laws, one Italian brother-in-law & my best friend is black.

Me? I'm a mongrel. There was probably a German, Black, Swedish, Indian relative somewhere in the past. I don't really care.

I dislike stereotypes, but I'd stereotype Asians as "hard workers" who bloom where they are planted. I have two Filipino step-kids who are extremely hard workers and one "white" son who is currently worthless!

My point is: To me, skin color is unimportant. Talent, ethics and desire are king with me.

I have never felt so important as when I have been to a party attended only by blacks. I also have never felt more alone than at a picnic with Filipinos and Chinese. There are prejudices both ways. We all have 'em - we need to get over it already. Milton hasn't!

Don't be foolish and stick up for him!

2005-08-24 19:58:06
265.   capdodger
Why was Choi running? He knows he can't steal a base right? Does Tracy know this?
2005-08-24 19:58:07
266.   alex 7
Choi's the man.
2005-08-24 19:59:23
267.   alex 7
You can argue when a team's getting no hit by Kim, it's not their day and you have to take some chances on the basepaths with two outs, especially when you have Choi's speed =).
2005-08-24 20:01:33
268.   alex 7
mountain mover with the mountain moving post. I just hope Bradley heals well and we can get back to a 12-2 start with him flagging down balls in center for us in 2006.
2005-08-24 20:02:24
269.   capdodger
Sure... They're not hitting Kim, but in Capitalist South Korea, pitcher hit you!!

Sorry about that...

2005-08-24 20:03:11
270.   ddger
Is it Kim's pitching so far or are our players thinking about what has transpired today and not into this game.
2005-08-24 20:03:44
271.   Steelyeri
Nice to see Choi walking more. He was behind 0-2 to kim and worked a walk.

Choi is the Korean dictator of walks :)

2005-08-24 20:03:50
272.   mountainmover
... everybody deserves forgiveness, but you have to earn it!
2005-08-24 20:04:33
273.   bill cox
I say bring up Justin Ruggiano.He's old for AA,but not a post-prospect like Weber,Meadows and Donavan(I actually was singing Weber's praises earlier in the year)Ruggiano has shown well with the Suns.
I'd love to see Delwyn Young come up September 1st.He can flatout hit.
2005-08-24 20:05:51
274.   alex 7
We could drop Mike Edwards from the 40-man and bring up an OF prospect.
2005-08-24 20:07:02
275.   bokonon42
269- I mentioned earlier that Jeff Foxworthy was the best selling comedic recording artist of all time, and said that it was crazy he'd sold more than Richard Pryor. It's obviously also crazy that he's outsold Yakov Smirnov. 8^)
2005-08-24 20:08:39
276.   Icaros
Suffering Bruin just got a good five seconds of air time to open the bottom of the fourth inning.

He was the guy carrying drinks.

2005-08-24 20:08:40
277.   ddger
It would be a real story if we get no hit tonight.
2005-08-24 20:09:43
278.   Fearing Blue
#273: I'm pretty confident Ruggiano would be overmatched by major league pitching. Regardless of all his other statistics, 41 Ks in 109 ABs is very worrisome.
2005-08-24 20:09:57
279.   Steelyeri
274, speaking of edwards, I wouldn'd be surprised if he was the one to get called up.
2005-08-24 20:09:59
280.   ddger
SB and Bob must be enjoying this exciting pitcher's duel.
2005-08-24 20:10:30
281.   alex 7
Have we ever scored four runs for Houlton or does it just seem like we haven't?
2005-08-24 20:10:54
282.   ddger
279. I forgot about Edwards. Guess he didn't make much of an impression on me while he was up here.
2005-08-24 20:12:35
283.   bokonon42
If Bradley's done for the year, doesn't that open a spot on the 40 man roster? Is there any reason not to put him on the 60 day DL?
2005-08-24 20:12:42
284.   Steelyeri
282- I guess he isn't too hard to forget. He did do a decent job filling in at 3b and at LF.
2005-08-24 20:13:53
285.   ddger
Since Bradley is out, it just means more time for Valentin and Repko.
2005-08-24 20:14:38
286.   Gen3Blue
268--I'm afraid MB wont be here in 2006
Are we seeing a pichers duel or two teams that can't hit.
Ruggiano has been hitting well and 23 is not awful, but he started at Vero and thats a long climb.
2005-08-24 20:15:19
287.   los angeles dragons
Race aside, Kent is notorious for having an isolationist attitude and evidently goes tete a tete with whomever is his "rival" teammate (see post 237).

Didn't we (i.e. fans/media) demand Bradley change his attitude and "get help" last year for doing the exact same things Kent has done this year, and other years on other teams?

Where's the accountability for Kent here?

2005-08-24 20:15:20
288.   werthgagne31
considering bradley is apparently on the dl, i haven't read anything yet confirming that.
today's lineup is good except i would have perez instead of robles and at the same leadoff spot where robles is.
2005-08-24 20:15:39
289.   ddger
Maybe Depo will pick someone up through waivers.
2005-08-24 20:17:05
290.   werthgagne31
depodesta must be filling out the lineup card.
2005-08-24 20:17:11
291.   King of the Hobos
Nice hustle for Cruz
2005-08-24 20:17:15
292.   bokonon42
Bye-bye no-no.
2005-08-24 20:17:19
293.   ddger
Finally, well no no hitter for Kim tonight.
2005-08-24 20:17:33
294.   Jim Hitchcock
264 Mountain Mover said waht I said yesterday, only in greatly expanded form. The difference is I refer to myself as a mutt...

One of my most enjoyable classed in HS was African American history. Got to talk a lot, and had probably the most open dialogue I ever experienced in school. And I still find it funny to remember the jaw dropping reaction of my counselor when I chose the class.

We're all to some extent victims of ours and others perceptions. The problem comes when we let them rule us.

2005-08-24 20:18:01
295.   Xeifrank
252. What is the definition of clubhouse "chemistry"?
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:18:33
296.   Kayaker7
293 Who would have thought it'd be Cruz breaking up the no hitter?
2005-08-24 20:18:56
297.   Jim Hitchcock
276 - Icaros, I saw that! I thought that was him!
2005-08-24 20:19:23
298.   ddger
290. If true, I hope it continues through rest of the season.
2005-08-24 20:19:28
299.   Odysseus
252 I actually think chemistry is important, but

1. Chemistry may very well be caused by winning rather than the other way around.
2. I'm not sure that any GM in the world is capable of putting together a "good team chemistry", because no one really knows how to measure it. Except Joe Morgan, John Kruk, and Harold Reynolds, who just slap that label on whatever teams/players they happen to like at the moment.

2005-08-24 20:20:13
300.   Xeifrank
287. When was the last time Kent threw a water bottle in the direction of fans? Or throw a water cooler etc...? Bradley is the one who took this public. Bradley is the one who is playing the race card. Bradley says race has nothing to do with it, then starts talking about 9% of blacks in baseball, wth? vr, Xei
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-08-24 20:20:31
301.   Steelyeri
I hope robles walks and Hee seop hits a GS...
2005-08-24 20:21:04
302.   Gen3Blue
Robles--Robles--Robles--never mind.
2005-08-24 20:21:24
303.   Steelyeri
well, so much for that.
2005-08-24 20:21:44
304.   ddger
Now Kim will just walk Choi next inning.

This has to be Kim's best performance this season.

2005-08-24 20:22:11
305.   Odysseus
300 I'm not sure this is about assigning blame. Both Kent and Bradley are, like all of us, flawed. None of us know the complete story.

Milton is now out for the season. I say, let it die. The only reason it's such a huge story in the first place is because the media wanted it to be a big story.

2005-08-24 20:22:44
306.   natepurcell
booo nothing ever goes right.

the good thing is, this is DJs second strong start in a row since he made his pregame adjustment of starting the game better.

hopefully him anc jackson and pitch well for the remainder of the year and solidfy two rotation spots for next year.

2005-08-24 20:23:17
307.   natepurcell
didnt Kim own us when we played the rockies in colorado earlier this year?
2005-08-24 20:23:21
308.   ddger
Is it coincidence that Milton has a season ending surgery at this time?
2005-08-24 20:23:35
309.   Jim Hitchcock
Where's the accountability for Kent here?

So, we're going to ostracize people for having `isolationist tendencies'? Look out, thought police.

2005-08-24 20:24:36
310.   Steelyeri
Looks like the Dbacks are finally regressing to the mean. The score is 8-0 in the bottom of the 4th vs. the mets. Lone posession of 2nd place looks possible and so, so good.
2005-08-24 20:24:49
311.   Jim Hitchcock
308 You do realize that's a silly question, right, ddger? :)
2005-08-24 20:24:52
312.   ddger
Nate, do you know why Miller only pitched to one batter the other day. Is he hurt?
2005-08-24 20:25:32
313.   Kayaker7
300 Kent is not very likable...not that that should matter. Maybe management expected too much out of Kent in terms of leadership. If he just kept to himself, cranked out RBI's and kept his mouth shut, there'd no problems. Why do you need a clubhouse leader when there is the manager?
2005-08-24 20:26:16
314.   Xeifrank
294. I'm amazed that class was offered in a high school. Where was your high school at? I think it's great that it was offered, just amazed that it was. My last quarter of college I needed one more history class, the only one that fit my schedule was also an African or African American history class. I went to the first class. I have to admit I got alot of stares. Not that that is a bad thing. I ended up dropping the class for a California History class. I would've liked to stick out the Af His class but it had WAY too much reading and being a CS major my nights were in the computer lab or flirting with girls. This is the same school that I took a statistics class in gambling. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:26:17
315.   los angeles dragons
300:

I said "set race aside" and then you go and use it in your post.

Again, where is the accountability for Kent. Besides the water bottle incident that was instigated by a fan, Kent has yelled at just as many if not more umpires this year, and has had a shoving match with BARRY BONDS!!! You've got to be a real bastard to get in a shoving match with Barry Bonds (although the thought of it brings a smile to my face).

Anyway, why don't we take a minute, drop the race card, and talk about JEFF KENT and his shortcomings.

P.S. Does anyone have Milton's email? I'd like to send a get-well card.

2005-08-24 20:26:36
316.   ddger
311. Is there a coverup? :)
2005-08-24 20:26:47
317.   natepurcell
nah, they just wanted him to face the lefty batter, miller walked him so they took him out.

i guess they were using him as a LOOGY

2005-08-24 20:28:14
318.   ddger
If this feud was going on for a while, shouldn't Tracy have done something before.
2005-08-24 20:28:47
319.   Kayaker7
What is this I hear that Milton's having season ending surgery?
2005-08-24 20:28:54
320.   Xeifrank
The only reason it's such a huge story in the first place is because the media wanted it to be a big story.

I think Bradley is the one who went public, making him the one who wanted it to be a big story imho. Also, I am not assigning blame to either player. Like you said, there is probably plenty of blame to go around for both players. It won't die until Bradley stops giving/seeking interviews on it. vr, Xei

2005-08-24 20:29:18
321.   ddger
317. Good, at least he's not hurt again. If they are using him as LOOGY, then there is good chance that he could be called up soon.
2005-08-24 20:30:04
322.   Icaros
If this feud was going on for a while, shouldn't Tracy have done something before.

He was too busy studying the numbers and putting the best lineups on the field.

2005-08-24 20:31:19
323.   Xeifrank
You've got to be a real bastard to get in a shoving match with Barry Bonds

You do? Is there some kind of list of players that if you shove make you a bastard? vr, Xei

2005-08-24 20:32:03
324.   Steelyeri
The astros just tied it up. 2-2 in the 5th with runners on 1st and 3rd.
2005-08-24 20:32:08
325.   mountainmover
Dusty Baker (who the last time I checked was black) said he'd love to have Jeff Kent police the Cubs! I'll be in Chi-Town on 8/31.

This is a guy who had Kent for 6 years! You don't even know Kent and he's insolent?

Jeff Kent is a loner. He shows up. He gives 100%. He gets in players grills who don't. He dislikes the media and they hate him and write about it. But you hear this insolent thing from the media. You heard Bradley spew his own vitrol! Nuff said!

2005-08-24 20:32:37
326.   ddger
I thought Tracy's strength was handling players and making sure everyone plays some. Wasn't he referred to as POPS by Milton?
2005-08-24 20:33:24
327.   Steelyeri
322- LOL. I doubt it. He was probably busy on the phone with Green and Loduca.
2005-08-24 20:33:50
328.   still bevens
I believe this is Cruz's first hit at dodger stadium..
2005-08-24 20:33:57
329.   Odysseus
309 So, we're going to ostracize people for having `isolationist tendencies'?

Yes, and I'm looking at you Switzerland.

2005-08-24 20:35:11
330.   Steelyeri
bases loaded with 2 outs in the 5th in san diego. Jason lane up.
2005-08-24 20:35:14
331.   mountainmover
Baker also said he may have prompted Kent to get into the conflict with Bonds, but that makes Kent great in my book: anybody who fights Bonds is OK with me!
2005-08-24 20:35:53
332.   Steelyeri
Jason Lane struck out. Thanks alot Jason.
2005-08-24 20:36:57
333.   bokonon42
322- If I were from Boston, I'd say that was wicked funny.
2005-08-24 20:37:15
334.   Xeifrank
Decent outing by Kim so far. He must be getting up for the Korean crowd that is likely at the game. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:37:41
335.   ddger
We have a VERY SLOW lineup tonight. We might have to hit a HR to score.
2005-08-24 20:39:41
336.   Steelyeri
can't beleive kent swung at that.
2005-08-24 20:40:16
337.   los angeles dragons
323:

Come on!! Barry Bonds? What could he say to make you mad enough to shove him? Would he yell at you in his falsetto?? Jeff Kent is a bully.

2005-08-24 20:40:21
338.   Fearing Blue
#100/108/115/131/141/154/157: It seems like there are two ways to look at the Hochevar situation.

The first is his value to the Dodgers based on an a reasonable probability and expectation of major league performance prior to free agency. This number is likely higher than $4 million. Based on his BP interview, it seems this is the way Boras would be approaching the situation.

The second is his value in the draft market. This number is likely closer to $3 million, and clearly below $4 million. This became fairly apparent since none of the teams ahead of the Dodgers selected him based on the expected bonus demands. After factoring in the time and leverage Hochevar would lose by waiting for next year's draft, his market value is probably close to the $2.5 million the Dodgers are offering.

In a unrestricted free agent market, these numbers should be closer together, but the draft intentionally introduces this discrepancy. The Dodgers took a risk on Hochevar feeling like their leverage would give them a decent chance to sign him within their budget ($2.5+ million). If not, they could invest the money in other ways and perhaps get a better return on their investment. Paul DePodesta has consistently said that the player budget is fluid between draft, player development, team payroll, etc. The money could be used to sign more draft-and-follows, sign a high-priced amateur free agent, add more pitching coaches, add an extra major league bullpen arm, etc.

I don't think Logan White was wrong to select Hochevar, even knowing his bonus demands were going to be $4+ million. By dropping all the way to the 40th pick, Hochevar and Boras lost most of their negotiating leverage.

The tricky part of this situation is that there is definitely upside for Boras to Hochevar holding out, but there's likely only downside for Hochevar. Boras is trying to subvert the draft system and create a "fair" market for his clients. The only way he can do so is by creating artificial leverage with his bonus demands. If it becomes apparent that he will or even may cave, it will hurt his clients moving forward as teams become more willing to "take a chance". But, as people have already pointed out, there's likely only downside for Hochevar in waiting for next year's draft. It seems that in this situation, what is in Scott Boras' best interest is not the same as what is in his client's best interest.

We shall see how it all goes down in the next week or so.

2005-08-24 20:40:40
339.   Xeifrank
2 starts in a row for Choi. Tracy must've fell and hit his head. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:43:01
340.   King of the Hobos
At the wall...grrr...we need to score, we needed that to go over the wall
2005-08-24 20:46:44
341.   Jim Hitchcock
314 It was at Westchester High, in 1974. The class was really a lot of fun. And, like mountain mover, I felt a positive sense of appreciation for making the choice to take the class. There was simply no sense of the typical black/white posturing you'd find elsewhere in the school. I can't tell you how cool that was.
2005-08-24 20:47:24
342.   bokonon42
Curse of Steve Watch: Oakland beat Detroit 9-2.
2005-08-24 20:48:47
343.   Steelyeri
Padres took the lead again in the bottom of the 5th. 3-2 padres in SD.

Meanwhile 13-0 mets in AZ.

2005-08-24 20:51:15
344.   Steelyeri
Nice play by Navarro.
2005-08-24 20:51:32
345.   bokonon42
Navarro is a rock hard stud.
2005-08-24 20:51:42
346.   ddger
Anyone miss Phillips?
2005-08-24 20:51:58
347.   Xeifrank
haha! Colorado manager takes a page out of Buntermakers playbook. Bunting with a man already in scoring position when you only need one run. haha! vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:52:29
348.   Xeifrank
Vin Scully updates the Padre game more often than Bob does. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:53:02
349.   Icaros
Navarro is a rock hard stud.

Wasn't that a John Holmes picture?

2005-08-24 20:53:13
350.   natepurcell
i cant believe navarro is only 21 yrs old.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-08-24 20:53:51
351.   bokonon42
344- I would have beaten you to the observation, but I vacillated on hyphenating rock-hard. Folly on my part.
2005-08-24 20:53:54
352.   Xeifrank
Sit down Mohr... it was a high strike.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:53:58
353.   ddger
And Martin is supposed to be even better.
2005-08-24 20:54:02
354.   Steelyeri
beautiful curve to get mohr looking.
2005-08-24 20:54:24
355.   Icaros
Anyone miss Phillips?

Sort of. I could use a drink refill right about now.

2005-08-24 20:54:38
356.   Xeifrank
Vin hasn't updated the Padre game in the last minute!! What's going on! :)
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:55:34
357.   Steelyeri
351- well, nice call on not hyphenating it. I think.
2005-08-24 20:55:47
358.   Xeifrank
Thanks Vin... that was about 80 seconds between updates down south.
So, is it official that Bradley is out for the season? vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:56:04
359.   Kayaker7
355 LOL. That was mean.
2005-08-24 20:56:32
360.   Icaros
Vin hasn't updated the Padre game in the last minute!! What's going on!

Bruce Bochy just retied his right cleat.

2005-08-24 20:56:38
361.   natepurcell
hell ya houlton! great composure.
2005-08-24 20:57:04
362.   King of the Hobos
Nice job by Houlton in that inning. He hasn't given up more than 3 runs in his last 4 starts including today, he's really starting to look like a decent innings eater
2005-08-24 20:57:13
363.   Xeifrank
I just got Randy Moss with the 6th overall pick in my fantasy football keeper league. Hope he's off the ganja. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:57:14
364.   bokonon42
349- Are you saying you don't think Navarro's got enough of a bat, yet, to deserve the appellation?
2005-08-24 20:57:45
365.   Steelyeri
bases loaded 2 outs and miguel olivo up in the bottom of the 5th.

Oops, make that a base hit by olivo and the padres now up 5-2. Too bad Bob isn't watching, he would be proud.

2005-08-24 20:58:52
366.   ddger
Let's take a lead so that Houlton will finally get a win.

Then we can see JR's adventure in the outfield.

2005-08-24 20:59:02
367.   capdodger
Hopefully they can get some runs now. Otherwise they'll be playing all night. :-P
2005-08-24 20:59:21
368.   Xeifrank
Werth, Navarro, Cruz = 1-2-3 inning.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 20:59:46
369.   Xeifrank
or perhaps 1-1-2-3 inning. :)
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:00:34
370.   Xeifrank
Looks like Houlton is out of the game now... Valentin = PH. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:00:59
371.   Kayaker7
Navarro's quietly having a great game.
2005-08-24 21:01:19
372.   Steelyeri
Navarro is having a nice game, he continues to impress.

368, nice reverse curse.

353, isn't martin 22 already?

2005-08-24 21:01:33
373.   Xeifrank
Buntermaker, please don't try anything stupid like a hit n run. CruzJr looks awful.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:01:44
374.   natepurcell
i really like navarro.

a navarro/martin backstop would be way too awesome for it to happen.

2005-08-24 21:02:45
375.   ddger
time for Cruz to make a contribution
2005-08-24 21:03:29
376.   Xeifrank
CruzJr looks more overmatched than Nakamura did when he was spraying line drives into the first base dugout. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:03:53
377.   ddger
Is Tracy putting Valentin in a position to succeed or fail?
2005-08-24 21:04:01
378.   King of the Hobos
I miss our good bench =(
2005-08-24 21:05:34
379.   Fearing Blue
#372: Martin is almost exactly a year older than Navarro and playing in AA. I'm still not totally convinced that he's a better prospect, since the only true reason I've heard so far is that scouts like him better.
2005-08-24 21:06:27
380.   Fearing Blue
#378: I'd rather have our good bench starting than on the bench :)
2005-08-24 21:06:40
381.   Xeifrank
Ok, a walk to Valentin. Now one more walk and we get Choi up with bases loaded for a game winning granny. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:06:52
382.   King of the Hobos
So who didn't predict an epic pitching duel between these 2 aces? I know I did
2005-08-24 21:06:59
383.   Kayaker7
377 Same difference!
2005-08-24 21:07:18
384.   ddger
too bad Kim won't be pitching to Choi
2005-08-24 21:07:35
385.   Xeifrank
Pitching change! Who is the new pitcher going to be and is he a LHP or RHP. Probably in just to get one out, so my guess would be a LHP. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:08:21
386.   King of the Hobos
381 That didn't work last time. Besides, Choi needs a walk off in the 9th or 10th
2005-08-24 21:08:28
387.   ddger
should be pinch hit Robles with Perez
2005-08-24 21:08:33
388.   natepurcell
we should callup the rest of our top propsects.

i mean, if navarro can succeed, so can the rest of them? right.. right?

eh im only hoping, i just want some bright spots in this failure of a season.

2005-08-24 21:09:59
389.   Xeifrank
If Robles walks I bet Phillips hits. Darn!
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:10:50
390.   Fearing Blue
#361: DePodesta deserves far more credit for Houlton when he is evaluated as a GM. Getting a serviceable 5th starter essentially for free is an extremely impressive feat. And the icing on the cake is that Houlton is locked up for another 5 years. Having just turned 26, it looks like Houlton could even get better over the next couple years.
2005-08-24 21:11:19
391.   Xeifrank
0-0 top of the 8th! SHucks.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:11:23
392.   Icaros
Are you saying you don't think Navarro's got enough of a bat, yet, to deserve the appellation?

I'm not the one who would know, but I don't think that is an attribute which grows at his age.

2005-08-24 21:11:30
393.   bokonon42
I've been meaning to ask the Minor League followers, was Marcus Carvajal a big time prospect? Is he as good as he has looked this year?
2005-08-24 21:12:18
394.   natepurcell
why does robles have to end the inning before choi comes up to bat?
2005-08-24 21:12:19
395.   Xeifrank
390. Was Houlton part of a Depo trade?
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:12:27
396.   Icaros
I can't tell Robles apart from Izturis tonight.
2005-08-24 21:12:46
397.   capdodger
If Robles had reached, Buntermaker was about to bring in Phillips.

Good thing Robles made an out.

2005-08-24 21:13:02
398.   Steelyeri
it's now 16-0 mets in the top of the 6th in AZ.

Dave Roberts flied out in a 14 pitch at bat with the bases loaded to end the 5th inning. still 5-2 Padres in the top of the 6th.

2005-08-24 21:13:02
399.   Mark Linsey
395- DePo claimed him via the Rule 5 draft from the Astros.
2005-08-24 21:13:03
400.   Uncle Miltie
At least Choi stays in the game...
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-08-24 21:13:48
401.   Fearing Blue
#388: I'm still a little frustrated that we sent Broxton down after only 6+ innings. The only reason that I would have been happy with was moving him back into the Suns starting rotation. Unfortunately, that does not look to be the case.
2005-08-24 21:14:02
402.   Berkeley Doug
A little off topic, but I was reading earlier today in the SF newspaper that the Giants are thinking about printing playoff tickets. So when are the Dodgers printing playoff tickets?
2005-08-24 21:14:53
403.   ddger
390. Too bad no win for Houlton tonight. Houlton is definitely a keeper. He should have been given the opportunity lot earlier instead of hanging onto Erickson so long.
2005-08-24 21:15:02
404.   Xeifrank
399. That's right, thanks! Next time Depo gets bashed, can bring that one up too. Did the Mets miss an extra point, or kick three field goals? vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:15:12
405.   Fearing Blue
#395: DePodesta picked up Houlton from the Astros in the Rule 5 draft for $50,000.
2005-08-24 21:17:03
406.   King of the Hobos
That doesn't look good
2005-08-24 21:17:45
407.   alex 7
Navarro is one year and one week younger than Martin but they're both young - 22 and 23 for MLB ready prospects.
2005-08-24 21:18:33
408.   King of the Hobos
@#$%! Schmoll could have just done an injustice to Houlton
2005-08-24 21:18:33
409.   alex 7
=(
2005-08-24 21:19:13
410.   Sam DC
The wonders of gameday: "Philadelphia Phillies pitcher Cory Lidle left the game due to an injured chest."

315 If I were sending a card to MB, I'd mail a paper card to Dodger Stadium. 1000 Elysian Park Avenue , LA CA, 90012

I think Bob will be happy to see Darth Ortiz' line from the NYM AZ game. 4.0 IP, 7H, 5 BB, 8 ER.

2005-08-24 21:19:30
411.   Xeifrank
the only positive is that the Colorado bullpen is as bad as ours. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:19:32
412.   alex 7
I know, hindsight and all, but shouldn't this have happened last night with the big lead and Sanchez' appearance been tonight?
2005-08-24 21:19:48
413.   Steelyeri
looks like schmoll needs to work on his mechanics again.
2005-08-24 21:20:03
414.   Fearing Blue
#407: Even better, they're only 21 and 22!
2005-08-24 21:20:43
415.   Uncle Miltie
What is wrong with Schmolly Schmolly Schmolly. He has not pitched well lately. I have more confidence in Brazoban.
2005-08-24 21:20:51
416.   Steelyeri
from MLB.COM...

"Mets rookie Mike Jacobs and David Wright both need a triple for the cycle while Jose Reyes needs a double."

2005-08-24 21:21:11
417.   Xeifrank
IBB for Helton?
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:21:52
418.   Steelyeri
runners on second and third with nobody out in the bottom of the 6th for the padres.
2005-08-24 21:22:31
419.   alex 7
Wasn't Helton batting in the .240s last time we played the Rockies? Some tear that must have been to put him at .308 now.
2005-08-24 21:23:28
420.   Gen3Blue
What I've seen of Scmoll has been pretty consistant; I'm actually surprised to see him again this year.
2005-08-24 21:23:30
421.   alex 7
that's right FB, I was thinking of their age at the start of next season, my mistake.
2005-08-24 21:24:08
422.   Steelyeri
make that bases loaded one out for the padres in the 6th. score is still 5-2.
2005-08-24 21:24:15
423.   Xeifrank
Matt Holiday.
Away OPS .673
Home OPS 1.001
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:25:28
424.   Icaros
Is Tracy aware of Schmoll's splits coming into tonight's game?

Against LH--.333/.389/.530 (.919 OPS)
Against RH--.241/.352/.397 (.749 OPS)

I think the guy should be a ROOGY only at this point.

2005-08-24 21:25:31
425.   King of the Hobos
The Royals just beat the Red Sox on a walk off sac fly in the 11th. Arroyo took the loss. The Royals bullpen lasted 5.1 IP without giving up a run, their bullpen is actually better than ours...
2005-08-24 21:26:24
426.   Xeifrank
No fan interference on that hit? vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:26:39
427.   King of the Hobos
What's with these barely over the line doubles? 2 runs won't be easy with our offense stuck in neutral
2005-08-24 21:28:18
428.   Xeifrank
wonder who comes in to pitch in the bottom of the 8th? Another LHP and Choi is out and Phillips is in. Lets hope they ran out of LHPs. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:28:30
429.   Steelyeri
This sucks for Houlton. He really deserves 2 wins in his last two outings. He won't get any.

Nice job of blocking the plate by Navarro. I have to say, I am very, very impressed.

2005-08-24 21:28:57
430.   alex 7
Why do I continue to expect wins from this team? Jon talks about acceptance, but I just can't hop on here, follow the game, and think "ah, they'll probably lose, let's just enjoy it for what it's worth."
2005-08-24 21:29:21
431.   Xeifrank
426. Rockie manager is arguing for fan interverence. THe ball hit the usher so the ball should be dead. Which means runners at 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs. hmmm.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:30:15
432.   Gen3Blue
That wasn't a fan, it was an employee!
2005-08-24 21:30:28
433.   Xeifrank
2 hitless starts in a row for Choi, just a bunch of walks. Phillips probably itching to start at 1B. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:30:31
434.   Jon Weisman
430 - no point in expecting to be 6 feet tall when you've been 5-10 for 20 years. Same idea.
2005-08-24 21:30:43
435.   alex 7
xei, Moss 6th overall? I'm guessing that's a good pick because the top young talent is already taken correct? Any idea on where to find a good keeper's league with cash prizes? Currently do sportsline's pay leagues, but a keeper league seems in-depth and more fun.
2005-08-24 21:31:30
436.   Uncle Miltie
pinch run with repko
2005-08-24 21:31:36
437.   Xeifrank
Ledee is some hitter. Too bad he can't play full time. Now let's hope the racist can tie the game up. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:32:50
438.   Sam DC
410 Looking back at this, I want to make clear that I was just pointing out the odd/uninformative wording re Lidle. The comment reads a little odd itself and I wouldn't want anyone to misconstrue.
2005-08-24 21:33:38
439.   Xeifrank
435. I commish a keeper fantasy football and baseball league. My baseball team sucks this year, 10th place out of 12. Abreu is probably my best keeper. In the keeper football league draft it went... 1. Manning, 2. Tomlinson, 3. Alexander, 4. Holmes, 5. Culpepper, 6. R.Moss
Also will run a keeper basketball league this year if interested. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:34:30
440.   Icaros
430 - What I like to do is find little nuggets of positivity which may likely carry over into next season.

We may have a solid middle-rotation starter in Houlton.

We have a good young catcher for 2006.

Things like that.

Remember, you will follow this team the rest of your life, not just this year.

2005-08-24 21:34:45
441.   Uncle Miltie
Kent isn't backing up his smack talk. He has been invisible for almost a month
2005-08-24 21:34:54
442.   Xeifrank
Old Maid is swinging for the fences. Gonna K if he keeps swinging like that. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:36:23
443.   Xeifrank
Old Maid gets us on the board. If we can get another man in scoring position we can have Phillips pinch hit and tie the game up.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:36:24
444.   Uncle Miltie
Ok, pinch run with Antonio Perez.
2005-08-24 21:36:44
445.   Kayaker7
Old Maido comes through.
2005-08-24 21:37:03
446.   Xeifrank
Repko running for Saenz. Who comes into the game Izturis or APerez? vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:37:04
447.   alex 7
true icaros, but I can't come to the point where a loss doesn't bug me. Maybe that's just the territory of a fan.
2005-08-24 21:37:06
448.   ddger
2run HR by Werth would be worthy
2005-08-24 21:37:40
449.   Xeifrank
Repko steals on the 0-2 pitch?
2005-08-24 21:38:30
450.   alex 7
"It's kind of ridiculous that you get a 10-game suspension for steroids and a six-game suspension for milk," Penny told the Herald.

''It's ridiculous that they worry about stuff like that. It shows they [the Marlins organization] don't know anything about the game. That kind of stuff goes on everywhere. It didn't affect the way he worked, the way he did his job.''

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-08-24 21:39:12
451.   Fearing Blue
What are the odds that Izturis gets traded this offseason? 50/50?
2005-08-24 21:39:37
452.   Xeifrank
RISP! Phillips has gotta hit! :) Buntermaker needs to get his stat sheet out.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:39:56
453.   alex 7
navarros has had a "player of the game" type of game so far, let's see if he can cement it.
2005-08-24 21:40:00
454.   ddger
okay, Navy let's get a hit
2005-08-24 21:40:17
455.   natepurcell
if hoch doesnt sign, its going to put a wrench into my 2008 dream rotation.
2005-08-24 21:40:17
456.   Xeifrank
451. huh? Did Izzy clear waivers? vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:40:19
457.   Jon Weisman
447 - The loss can still bug you - they all bother me. But neither wins nor losses should surprise you at this point.
2005-08-24 21:40:30
458.   Icaros
447 - As I'm approaching 30, I've taken a more existential attitude toward my sports viewing.

I used to break things.

2005-08-24 21:40:59
459.   Kayaker7
All we need is a bloop.
2005-08-24 21:40:59
460.   alex 7
yuck, an extra s.
2005-08-24 21:41:43
461.   bokonon42
If Navarro gets a hit here, I'm having his name tattooed across my chest tomorrow.
2005-08-24 21:42:07
462.   Xeifrank
456. Missed the "offseason" tag. I still don't think he will get traded. His salary is still reasonable, and what position are we going to trade for? vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:43:20
463.   King of the Hobos
Now he strikes out, bad time to do it. Well, a Choi walk off is set up, however Fuentes is a lefty so Phillips will bat
2005-08-24 21:44:05
464.   Fearing Blue
#456: I was asking about the offseason, so he wouldn't need to clear waivers. In my opinion, we would have to seriously consider any deal where we could get a decent pitcher in return.
2005-08-24 21:44:31
465.   ddger
If Tracy keeps using Izzy as leadoff hitter then trade him.
2005-08-24 21:44:51
466.   Xeifrank
WEC is 15.1%
100% chance I will still be in denial.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:45:33
467.   Xeifrank
464. 462
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:46:20
468.   werthgagne31
451-- i wouldn't be surprised if izturis gets traded in the offseason with an aybar type prospect or 2, plus phillips for a brad penny type starting pitcher.
we will lose weaver and depodesta will not sign another lowe type pitcher and he won't pay big bucks for burnett.
i also think martin will be ready for next season, that's why phillips will be gone.
2005-08-24 21:46:54
469.   King of the Hobos
From the notes:

said Izturis, who figures to be out awhile

It also mentions Kuo, but it just seems like an information piece rather than a sign of things to come

2005-08-24 21:47:19
470.   Xeifrank
CruzJr-APerez-Robles in the 9th?
I might actually rather have Phillips hit than CruzJr, but not sure if there are any OFers left. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:48:26
471.   King of the Hobos
470 Cruz did get a double, and had Houlton not K'd, we might be tied right now
2005-08-24 21:49:27
472.   natepurcell
my god, dirty D's change is awesome now.
2005-08-24 21:50:04
473.   Xeifrank
468. I'd be surprised if we could get a Penny type pitcher for Izzy-Aybar-Phillips. If I were Depo I'd pull the trigger on that one, but can't imagine any team giving up a hot commodity for the 3 amigos. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:50:08
474.   natepurcell
sanchez 2006 will = mota 2003
2005-08-24 21:51:04
475.   dzzrtRatt
Okay, we don't need Izturis anymore. Trade bait!
2005-08-24 21:51:31
476.   Fearing Blue
#462: His salary is reasonable, but...

Cesar Izturis: $3.10 for 2006; $4.15 for 2007

Oscar Robles (est.): $0.40 for 2006; $0.50 for 2007

I'm sure DePodesta could find something interesting to do with the exra $6.35 million. On top of that, we'd likely get something good in return since Izturis is a "good", young shortstop with a very reasonable contract.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me to see something happen.

2005-08-24 21:51:36
477.   Xeifrank
Jose Nakumura Jr., better atleast look a little better in this next at bat. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:52:15
478.   Uncle Miltie
Robles has the Derek Jeter play down. Izturis wouldn't need to dive on that play.
2005-08-24 21:52:37
479.   King of the Hobos
474 Now that he is effectively using another pitch, that's fairly possible. I wouldn't mind Brazoban doing the same thing

Cruz-Perez-Robles-Choi vs Fuentes. HBPs aside, Fuentes ahsn't been too bad. I miss Chacon

2005-08-24 21:53:49
480.   Uncle Miltie
Robles is almost 30 years old. Depodesta is not going to trade a 25 year old SS coming off of a poor year. If he is traded, it will be when Hu is ready.
2005-08-24 21:54:19
481.   natepurcell
was sanchez a evans move or a depo move?
2005-08-24 21:54:43
482.   Xeifrank
476. The thing that killed us this year was our lack of depth because of all the injuries. What happens if you trade Izzy and Robles goes down? I say keep Izzy and bat him 8th. But if you are right and they can get a Penny type pitcher, then I'd do it. My guess is that we could get a #3 starter at best. Penny is somewhere between a #1 and #2 (closer to #2) starter.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:55:26
483.   natepurcell
Robles is almost 30 years old. Depodesta is not going to trade a 25 year old SS coming off of a poor year. If he is traded, it will be when Hu is ready.

hu will be ready when robles gets expensive.

2005-08-24 21:56:22
484.   Xeifrank
Jose Nakamura Jr., strikes out. He looks awful. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:56:26
485.   King of the Hobos
Cruz probably shouldn't have let that gone by.
2005-08-24 21:56:41
486.   Fearing Blue
#473: Of course, when the Dodgers did the Florida trade, Penny was just a "5th starter". That still makes me smile.
2005-08-24 21:56:59
487.   Sam DC
2 run homer by Shawn Green. Now the Mets are only up by 13.
2005-08-24 21:57:15
488.   Xeifrank
Too bad APerez didn't get 5 at bats tonight.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:57:31
489.   King of the Hobos
Fuentes IS hittable. However 2 lefties up, and if I remember correctly, that means we need some HBPs for a chance to win
2005-08-24 21:57:41
490.   werthgagne31
473-- something like izturis,repko,phillips and a prospect that's not an elite prospect.

we got penny and choi for loduca, mota,encarnacion.

so lets say choi for encarnacion, that leaves loduca and mota for penny.

well izturis is another loduca just at a different position, and repko,phillips and a prospect thats not an elite prospect = mota.

2005-08-24 21:58:01
491.   natepurcell
who picked up sanchez off waivers? evans or depo?
2005-08-24 21:58:23
492.   Xeifrank
486. Perhaps a 5th starter on Florida, but immediately about a #2 or #3 for the Dodgers. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 21:58:24
493.   ddger
Oscar, don't go Izzy on us.
2005-08-24 21:58:39
494.   King of the Hobos
491 Evans
2005-08-24 21:58:43
495.   Fearing Blue
#481: My recollection is that picking up Sanchez off waivers was an Evans move.
2005-08-24 21:58:51
496.   Berkeley Doug
Someone needs to teach Robles how to take one for the team.
2005-08-24 21:59:18
497.   bokonon42
281- Duaner was selected off waivers by the Dodgers from the Pittsburgh Pirates, November 20, 2003. When did DePo start?
2005-08-24 21:59:54
498.   natepurcell
good move mr. pink shirt.
2005-08-24 22:00:09
499.   Xeifrank
Nice play. Can't imagine Choi hitting here.
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:00:20
500.   King of the Hobos
Dang, Miles, let that go through. Here comes the walk off...
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2005-08-24 22:00:36
501.   Uncle Miltie
That's why you run the runner
2005-08-24 22:00:38
502.   alex 7
yeah, the difference between Izturis at 26 and 27 probably isn't much better than Robles at 30 and 31 so if Izturis can bring in something of value, makes sense to do so. The money saved alone and the lack of outs from the leadoff spot make it worth a deal.

Yet like most of us, if he comes back and hits in the 8 hole, I'd be fine with it.

2005-08-24 22:00:40
503.   Berkeley Doug
HEE SOP CHOI! HEE SOP CHOI!
2005-08-24 22:00:42
504.   Xeifrank
wow! Choi is hitting. Depo must've had a talk with Buntermaker. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:00:52
505.   natepurcell
booo, if only robles slapped it a little harder.
2005-08-24 22:01:04
506.   alex 7
wow, Jason Phillips is broken hearted.
2005-08-24 22:01:52
507.   Xeifrank
Uh oh! 2 strikes on Choi. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:02:08
508.   Uncle Miltie
walk off strikeout?
2005-08-24 22:02:45
509.   bokonon42
DePo didn't start till Feb. '04. Evans gets the credit for Duaner.
2005-08-24 22:03:45
510.   Uncle Miltie
Yup
2005-08-24 22:03:59
511.   Xeifrank
Crapola! Tracy gets questioned on not letting Phillips hit. How ironic. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:04:05
512.   alex 7
blah
2005-08-24 22:04:13
513.   Berkeley Doug
HSC - You have to swing at that!
2005-08-24 22:04:55
514.   natepurcell
nice pitch. oh well.

at least delwyn young has a homerun tonight.

2005-08-24 22:05:03
515.   los angeles dragons
If Kent hadn't torn 80% of Bradley's ligament during their stand-off we may have had a chance to win that.
2005-08-24 22:05:15
516.   alex 7
six out feels out of it. five out still had hope.
2005-08-24 22:05:19
517.   Xeifrank
Looks like Choi is really falling in love with the BB. Probably should've been called out on strikes on that one at bat vs Kim. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:05:22
518.   King of the Hobos
That really sucked. I'm convinced, it's over. San Diego has a 6 (5.5 tomorrow probably) game lead, Bradley is gone for the season, and we've got a Pettitte, Oswalt, Clemens series vs the Pads who have a Francis, Wright, Kim series at the same time
2005-08-24 22:06:36
519.   alex 7
but King, that Kim guy is really good!
2005-08-24 22:06:44
520.   ddger
We'll just make up 2 games next week and we're on schedule.
2005-08-24 22:07:03
521.   Chris Ho Park
Unclutch
2005-08-24 22:07:04
522.   Fearing Blue
#504: If there was a man on second, I'm pretty sure Tracy would have pinch hit Phillips for Choi. But, with only a man on first, the Dodgers likely needed to string together two hits. Choi was followed by the pitcher's spot and Phillips was the last healthy bat on the bench. So, Tracy correctly determined that Choi and Phillips were much more likely to get hits than Phillips and Sanchez.
2005-08-24 22:07:20
523.   Uncle Miltie
hu will be ready when robles gets expensive.
Robles will never get expensive...not as a bench player.

There's no reason to trade Izturis- the Rockies would probably give up Jason Jennings..that's about all the Dodgers would get for Izturis right now. I'd rather keep him when he'll probably bounce back next year.

2005-08-24 22:07:22
524.   Xeifrank
as long as our GB is <= to the number of games vs the Padres I will stay in D-E-N-I-A-L. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:07:29
525.   King of the Hobos
508 I don't think Choi is that fast, a 4 base WP is hard, even with Fuentes
2005-08-24 22:07:40
526.   still bevens
Why do we excel at making the worst pitchers in the league look good?
2005-08-24 22:07:51
527.   capdodger
Tracy was holding Phillips in case Choi got on. He didn't want Sanchez hitting for himself with RISP.
2005-08-24 22:09:26
528.   ddger
It's less painful to stay in DENIAL but eventually you will have to go into acceptance and that's when all the pain will hit you at once.
2005-08-24 22:10:39
529.   King of the Hobos
527 Did you miss Mr Clutch yesterday? Weaver could have batted in the 3 spot. Could he play LF tomorrow? I just want to see how good he does, and Penny vs Cook seems fairly easy
2005-08-24 22:12:06
530.   Gen3Blue
I keep getting booted out of Toaster. Yeah, Kent is our only real player left healthy and he's not doing well at all( has to be affected by this weekend Moonshot). Think of each position, whose healthy, and you'll see we have no real players left. Still, we will carry on-but please accept.
2005-08-24 22:13:00
531.   werthgagne31
518-- also drew is talking like he might not be back this season, he said something like wrist injuries are the worst and he doesn't want to come back and hit a bunch of weak grounders.
so the rest of the season is without drew and bradley, and even tho tracy has been putting good lineups out there the last couple days he will go back to his stupid lineups again, so this season is over.
i'm looking forward to next season.
next season without tracy and izturis and with an addition of brian giles and a starting pitcher that is a little better than weaver and a healthy drew, bradley, gagne and an antonio perez and choi in the lineup.
2005-08-24 22:13:24
532.   natepurcell
Robles will never get expensive...not as a bench player.

what makes robles a bench player and izzy not one?

2005-08-24 22:13:50
533.   alex 7
miltie, when/if Iz bounces back next year, will he be much better than Robles' current .280 gap-power-some-walks hitting ability?
2005-08-24 22:13:56
534.   Dodgersrock24
I can't believe we lost to the worst road team in Baseball. Why didn't Tracy use Phillips to pinch hit for Choi. I'm embarrassed to be a Dodger fan right now. I really believe were done. Padres are going to go 6 up in the division. I said to myself that we need to win almost every home game. If we lost 1 game to Houston, that's alright, but not to the Rockies. How embarrassing.
2005-08-24 22:14:36
535.   Xeifrank
So when Bradley goes on the DL, who most likely gets called up? Please don't say the 'G' word.

Hoffman (ESPN) just came in to close out the game down south. vr, Xei

2005-08-24 22:15:02
536.   natepurcell
i really cant wait until the suns come home from the road trip, then i can watch their games live.
2005-08-24 22:16:29
537.   Uncle Miltie
Who said Choi is going to be the everyday first baseman next year? Izzy will be back- I guarantee it. Bradley and Drew are both very injury prone, as is Werth. There's no guarantee that Gagne will be the Gagne of old (he wasn't this year- steroids?) The Dodgers have a lot of question marks going into next season.
2005-08-24 22:17:13
538.   Fearing Blue
#523: What do you think he will bounce back to? Below are his past four years of OPS.

2005: .624 OPS
2004: .711 OPS
2003: .597 OPS
2002: .556 OPS

There is a reason to trade Izturis, just like there is a reason to trade any other player on the team. That reason is getting greater value in return. Since Izturis is beloved by the Morgans, Plaschkes, etc. of the world, I'm guessing there is a GM out there who will overpay. Even if we only get fair value in return, if we were able to fill a bigger hole than shortstop, that might be a goood enough reason to do the trade.

2005-08-24 22:17:28
539.   Xeifrank
534. As pointed out the pitchers spot was up after Choi and Phillips was the last positional player left on the bench. He had to save Phillips in case Choi got on. Tracy actually did the right thing. I also forgot the pitcher was up next and questioned the strategy. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:18:37
540.   Gen3Blue
531 you are right about Drew,he will make sure his delicate wrist heals--he's guaranteed 2 more years. But he won't get in too many games next year and Brad is gone
for sure. You best hope Izzy comes back strong!
2005-08-24 22:19:22
541.   Dodgersrock24
539. I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me.
2005-08-24 22:20:43
542.   Xeifrank
538. I don't think you can get that much for Izturis. If a pitcher like Weaver commands $10 mil per year I can't imagine getting anything more than a journey man pitcher for Izzy, and I don't think throwing in Phillips who can't throw out a base runner (the secret is out now) would help much. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:21:06
543.   Uncle Miltie
532- age, salary, defensive reputation
533- no, but he'll be a better defender and will likely raise his trade value- also the Dodgers haven't had any stability at SS in a long time, it's nice to have a SS that plays great defensive (which I expect Izzy to do next year while being for the most part, fully healthy)
2005-08-24 22:22:09
544.   ddger
After tonight's game, Tracy might say "let's see...6 games out with 36 left. we just need to make up 1 game every 6 games."
2005-08-24 22:22:18
545.   oldbear
I hope Depo can find a taker for Odalis Perez. Because DJ Houlton right now looks like a better option as the #3 or #4 next year. The guy's doing everything a starter should do. He keeps the ball in the yard. He K's people. And he limits his walks.

Houlton's been outstanding his last two outings.

2005-08-24 22:23:26
546.   ddger
545. Good luck. Perez is making $21M next 2 years.
2005-08-24 22:24:07
547.   Fearing Blue
#537: Even after arbitration, I don't think the Dodgers are going to get much better bang for their buck than a .800+ OPS first baseman for $1.5 million. The only obvious improvement on the free agent market is Konerko, but I'm expecting the Dodgers to spend that money elsewhere (outfield depth and starting pitching).

Izturis is the only position player that DePodesta hasn't replaced so far. That alone seems like it puts him in a tenuous enough position to rule out guarantees.

2005-08-24 22:24:12
548.   werthgagne31
537-- you gaurantee izturis being back next season, izturis is not a depodesta type player, he will be the main part of a trade for a penny type starting pitcher, i just don't know who else will be added in the trade, but depodesta will not give weaver 9 million per year, and won't try to outbid other teams for burnett, and depodesta won't sign another lowe type pitcher from free agency, so depodesta will make a trade for a penny type starting pitcher and izturis will be the main piece of that trade.
and look for depodesta to push for brian giles from free agency.
and choi will platoon at 1b next season.
tracy is gone after this season too.
i firmly believe all of the above.
2005-08-24 22:25:31
549.   oldbear
543. Even though he was 0-5 tonite, Robles can be a bridge to Joel Guzman at SS. Lets move Izzy's 6.5 mils and get something for him, before he's even more removed from his GG year and actually a year closer to being Christian Guzman at the plate.
2005-08-24 22:34:32
550.   Uncle Miltie
A .250 hitting SS with good defense and no power doesn't have much value. A .280-.300 hitting SS with very good defense is gold. Like 542 said, Izzy won't have a lot of value in the offseason coming off of a poor season.

538- he's entering his prime. Check out Omar Vizquel's career...say 1993...kinda looks like another young Venezuelan SS.
Vizquel '93 (26 years old) .255/.319/.298 .617
Izturis '05 (25 years old) .257/.302/.322 .624

I'm sorry that you can't come up with anything better than the he stinks argument without pulling up statistics of a young player that was rushed to the majors.

Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2005-08-24 22:34:37
551.   Mark
After that last at bat, Choi should be benched for life. I've moved beyond acceptance.
2005-08-24 22:36:46
552.   Dodgersrock24
If everything go to my plan with the offseason. I believe that the Dodgers are going to get rid of 6 players on the current 25 man roster, 1 will retire, and Green Salary. I think Dodgers will have maybe $25 million to spend in the offseason if everything goes as plan what I believe. I'm not going to tell you guys who are to leave or retire.
2005-08-24 22:37:44
553.   Bob Timmermann
Honest, I don't have any more games to go except on September 7 against the Giants.

It will be for everyone's good.

I kept feeling bad for Ledee during the game. He probably thought to himself "Dang, a double! That's hard!"

2005-08-24 22:39:32
554.   ddger
Bob, how was the atmosphere at the game tonight? How did fans react when Kent came up to bat?
2005-08-24 22:41:04
555.   Jim Hitchcock
It's time for the obligatory "Way to go, Bob...:)
2005-08-24 22:41:15
556.   Xeifrank
There is NO WAY you get a Brad Penny level pitcher (basically a solid #2 pitcher) for Izzy-Phillips and a throw in minor leaguer. No way, ain't gonna happen. True, Izzy is not a Depo type player, Robles really isn't either. Izzy is 25 years old, was banged up alot this year. He will be hitting his prime in the next two years. I would hold on to him, you don't even know if Joel Guzman can play SS at the major league level with a 6 foot 6 inch body. I say let Izzy play through his contract year in LA. If you can get a Penny type pitcher for him then sure do it, but it won't happen. I'd trade 3 quarters of the team (not all at once) for a Penny type pitcher. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:43:56
557.   Jim Hitchcock
Assuming SB's not going to read through all the comments, Icaros and I spotted him on the broadcast tonight. Top of the fourth, leaning over in the aisle handing drinks to a couple of guys. Five seconds of fame!
2005-08-24 22:48:00
558.   Bob Timmermann
The fans didn't react any differently to Kent than any other time from what I can tell.

The crowd was pretty mellow. They liked chanting Hee-Seop Choi and that's about it.

2005-08-24 22:49:05
559.   Xeifrank
557. You guys were watching Cops? And he was handing alcoholic drinks to minors? :)
vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:50:21
560.   Xeifrank
Bob, you need to sacrifice a goat or something before your next game. If not a goat, atleast a sweatshirt or pair of sandals. vr, Xei
2005-08-24 22:53:26
561.   Jim Hitchcock
Q: If you sacrifice a goat, amd then eat it, that's not really sacrificing it, is it?
2005-08-24 22:55:04
562.   Bob Timmermann
Can I just go over to Highland Park and go buy some goat? I know there are places that sell it there.
2005-08-24 23:00:01
563.   Suffering Bruin
562 You got home fast. I just made it back. Where were you sitting? I was fifteen rows behind the good blue seats, behind home plate. Terrific seats.

Painful, painful loss. Just painful. I was just on Dodger Talk and found that I couldn't string two sentences together. This loss hurt.

2005-08-24 23:01:57
564.   Jim Hitchcock
See 557 SB.
2005-08-24 23:05:17
565.   Bob Timmermann
I was sitting in the reserved section 19. I don't live far from Dodger Stadium.

I also stopped at the grocery store on the way home too.

And, best of all, went to the bathroom.

2005-08-24 23:07:33
566.   Langhorne
Bob, if you you like curry try curried goat. When I lived in Pomona there was a Jamaican restaurant up the street from me that served great curried goat. That, with a ginger beer, is heaven.
2005-08-24 23:08:29
567.   Suffering Bruin
564 I'm taping this game!!!
2005-08-24 23:09:13
568.   Bob Timmermann
Can't I just eat goat cheese?
2005-08-24 23:09:51
569.   Suffering Bruin
Dammit! There's not replay! Oh well... perfect capper for the evening! Thanks for the heads up guys.
2005-08-24 23:10:21
570.   Jim Hitchcock
It was right at the start of the 4th inning. I believe.
2005-08-24 23:10:37
571.   King of the Hobos
Brent Leach has taken a 1 point lead in the Ogden ERA tirle, 2.54 to 3.54. He also had 9 Ks, but Greg Smith kept his K lead with a 8 K game tonight. At 22, Leach is old, and I have no idea why a college senior doing that is still in Ogden. If Miller, Tiffany, Elbert, and Megrew weren't in the system, Leach would be even better
2005-08-24 23:11:28
572.   Jim Hitchcock
569 - Rats.
2005-08-24 23:14:28
573.   Jim Hitchcock
SB, The replay will be shown tomorrow at noon.
2005-08-24 23:23:06
574.   dzzrtRatt
A 32-year old career minor leaguer named Rick Short, who plays for the New Orleans Zephyrs, is hitting .392, and could become the first minor leaguer to hit .400 since 1961. Short, who plays most positions, played his first major league game this June for the Nationals.

Heartwarming WaPo story: tinyurl.com/8z9pe

2005-08-24 23:23:26
575.   Suffering Bruin
572 Oh well...

TEN THINGS ABOUT MY NIGHT AT THE STADIUM

1. Incredible seats. If I had the moolah and the connections, I would do that every game.
2. Kent to my knowledge was not booed for the Bradley incident but for his performance tonight. The fans around me were mostly negative about Bradley. Nobody knew Bradley was hurt; I knew because we arrived late and heard Vinny announce it before the game.
3. D.J. Houlton didn't look good because he was pitching against the Rockies, he looked good, period. Great command, good fastball, excellent curve... just a terrific start. I was alone in thinking we should've left him in.
4. The performance of the Korean Krusher was not encouraging; he should've been called out on strikes in his second AB, he didn't hit the ball out of the infield and that 9th inning backwards K was inexplicable. You gotta swing in that situation unless you're damn sure it's a ball.
5. Kim threw a lot of off-speed. He kept smiling when Choi was facing him.
6. Navarro is the Dodgers starting catcher. I wish he could hit for more power--any power would be nice--but he's our regular catcher.
7. A very, very fast game through seven innings. Most of the crowd left after 7.
8. Dear Steve Schmoll,
Please keep the ball down. And tell Yhency the same thing, 'kay? Yours, SB
9. Two dogs, garlic fries (really, salt fries is more accurate), root beer and ice cream. I think my cholestrol is being measured in light years right now.
10. Vin Scully leading the crowd in "Take Me Out to the Ballgame," is just touching. Everyone felt good watching him lead the way. What a treasure.

2005-08-24 23:23:56
576.   Suffering Bruin
573 Thanks! The TiVo will be set. Much obliged...
2005-08-24 23:38:16
577.   Icaros
Bruin,

You're on right before the start of the bottom of the fourth.

You're walking down the aisle with drinks for a good 3-5 seconds.

2005-08-24 23:51:39
578.   Bob Timmermann
Before the game, there was a Japanese-American dance group on the field in Japanese dress. Robles and Choi were walking by to get some running in. Robles made some motion to Choi as if he were asking him if he should bow.

Choi smiled and probably told him "How the heck should I know, I'm not Japanese!"

They also had the Nisei Queen and her court. The Little Tokyo business people have a big shinding every year and they have a beauty pageant. I believe whomever has the richest sponsor wins.

But the PA announcer said, "Started in 1934 by Little Tokyo businessmen, the 65th annual Nisei Week festival...."

Hmm, seems like the skipped a few years.

2005-08-25 00:55:11
579.   Jim Hitchcock
Would a ahinding be a combination of shindig and wingding? :)
2005-08-25 01:35:04
580.   fanerman
After the Bradley injury (I thought that maybe just maybe we would get the occasional break or 2 go our way), I would think that if we still somehow manage to win this division, we'll be the luckiest unlucky team in the history of professional sports.
2005-08-25 01:35:18
581.   808Bears
578 I think the skipped years have something to do with the time that there were no Japanese-Americans in Little Tokyo, or the rest of the west coast for that matter... Hard to have a big shindig from inside the internment camps. But I think you got the gist of the Nisei Week / Cherry Blossom festivals pretty right on.
I read way more than I post, but I couldn't let that go by. Thanks to regs and especially Jon for making this the most informative and entertaining, if not scrappy site on the web.
2005-08-25 06:14:29
582.   Fearing Blue
#550: Thanks for the Vizquel comparison. I think it's a pretty good one. Based on Vizquel's career path, we would only have to wait another 4 years (until 2009) for Izturis to OPS above .700 again.
2005-08-25 07:27:17
583.   Bob Timmermann
581
I knew what the missing years were. But I was wondering if anyone else would.
2005-08-25 07:31:38
584.   Sam DC
574 I was at Short's first game at RFK in June. The nice thing was, there was a blurb about him in the paper in the morning, and the whole crowd seemed to know his story (as if people actually read newspapers . . .) and just gave him a huge cheer when he came up to bat. When he got his first hit, RBI single in a very tight game I'm pretty sure, the place just exploded.

Thanks 808 for pointing out the obvious. Sometimes you just read without thinking and I'm glad to have been reminded of the reason behind Bob's little nugget that I didn't really stop to think about.

Hope you have Ortiz' gem on Tivo, Bob.

2005-08-25 07:32:26
585.   Sam DC
Oh -- and meant to comment that you should all check out the Wrigley Field beer vendor baseball cards linked at Cub Town. Pretty great stuff.
2005-08-25 07:35:08
586.   Bob Timmermann
584

It's not getting any better for the DBacks. They face Pedro Martinez tonight. The DBacks are starting Javier Vazquez.

Please let the Dodgers finish ahead of the DBacks.

People can say that the Dodgers made some bad personnel decisions this year, but the DBacks made ones that were downright idiotic and they were in first place in July!

Assuming that the Padres win the division, I will likely pull for them in the first round of the playoffs. Mainly out of spite. Too much scorn heaped on the NL West by the East Coast baseball elite.

2005-08-25 09:03:02
587.   Howard Fox
I too will root for the Padres. I don't have the negative thoughts toward them like I do the Giants.
2005-08-25 09:05:37
588.   Howard Fox
And back to Milton and Jeff for a second, if I might.

It almost looks to me like a case of hit and run. Milton knows he is gone for the rest of the year, so he takes shots at a guy who has earned the respect he so much desires.

Just my opinion, and this from someone who has always liked Bradley.

2005-08-25 09:06:01
589.   Bob Timmermann
I dislike the Padres a lot.

But I'm like the member of a group that gets made of fun. You can only poke fun at the NL West if you're a fan of one of the five teams in it.

2005-08-25 09:07:25
590.   Howard Fox
True, and for all the disparaging remarks made about the West, the Padres and Dodgers are holding their own against the elite Astros and Braves.
2005-08-25 09:18:15
591.   Midwest Blue
Acceptance / Denial Barometer:

Last night's game was tragic. Houlton deserved better support and I agree with all the faux pas previously listed.

Bradley / Kent is very sad. I would predict an off-season trade of Izzy, Bradley, pitcher, prospect for a good (at least #3) starting pitcher. Robles would be transition with certain minor-league players targeted for call-up if something happens to him.

Brian Giles to replace Bradley.

I will not be in acceptance until at least after this weekend. If we lose two or get swept by Houston and fall 8 games out, I think I would be all but there. But I will have tickets to the Cubs and am taking my daughter and so I cannot consciously give-up until after that game.

Sad, sad days.

2005-08-25 09:24:16
592.   Howard Fox
Definition of a die-hard Dodger fan:

...going to San Francisco in mid September and San Diego at the end of that month to follow the bums thru the pennant race...

Different topic...the local papers gush over the young pitchers of the Angels and how Washburn is now expendable...I think Houlton has shown himself to be of that quality, but of course, he is a Dodger...

2005-08-25 09:28:13
593.   still bevens
I'll be in S.D. for the second to last game of the season. Not sure what the implications will be. Most likely I'll be able to check out Jacksonville's finest..
2005-08-25 09:35:33
594.   Bob Timmermann
The penultimate game of the year in San Diego will be played to see if the Padres end up with a better record than the 1973 Mets. The Padres will likely be setting up their pitching rotation for the playoffs so there probably won't be any Jake Peavy sightings.

Probably a good time to enjoy the pitching stylings of Tim Stauffer or Pedro Astacio.

2005-08-25 09:37:55
595.   Howard Fox
81-81 wins the west.
2005-08-25 09:40:22
596.   db1022
I seem to be reading a lot about Milton "needing" to be traded now. Do we really think that this situation is this dire?

I personally think this has been overblown by the media, and that Milton is happy here (to the extent that he can be happy anywhere). I see him wear his LA uniform with a lot of pride, and I hope that he is not traded simply because this situation is irreparable.

2005-08-25 09:44:08
597.   Howard Fox
596 I agree, I would like to see him stay here. You need a player with fire.
2005-08-25 09:53:55
598.   Chris H
I don't think the Dodgers have any desire to trade Bradley and I doubt many teams have any desire to acquire him.
2005-08-25 14:51:34
599.   Borchard504
db1022 - I lived in Ventura for a long time - 1960 till 2000 :)Buena'78

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